WarRoom Battleground EP 984: Further News On The Revival, Which The Washington Post Attributes In Part To Charlie Kirk’s Death
Bannon's War Room EP 984 analyzes the Vatican's perceived alignment with globalism, alleging Pope Leo is an idol-worshipper undermining Trump while ignoring his prostration before Pachamama. Hosts contrast this with a Gen Z Catholic revival in Greenwich Village, crediting Charlie Kirk's death for young men seeking strict moral community over "woke" liberalism. They further critique Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's violent rhetoric against Iran versus the Pope's pacifism, framing the current religious landscape as a battleground between ethno-nationalist resistance and coordinated left-wing control. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
Participants
Main
b
ben harnwell
19:40
f
frank walker
10:30
j
jenny holland
10:24
Appearances
f
father edward beck
00:40
s
steve bannon
r00:37
Clips
j
jake tapper
cnn00:09
p
pete hegseth
admin00:22
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Speaker
Time
Text
Political Stunts and Opposition00:14:31
unidentified
That.
I think Poplio is aware that there's a vacuum in terms of the opposition against the ethno nationalist narratives.
That's not just in America, but also in Europe.
The entire discourse is dominated by the question of how far the right will go in conquering European countries, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, France, Germany.
And there's not much talk about.
The alternative.
And so here we are.
The Pope is poking the bear in the White House.
And for now, Trump and the MAGA machine are not fighting back.
For such a time as this.
Is Pope Leo, formerly known as Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost, aware he now occupies a very, very unique position?
I think he's perfectly aware that this started from the very beginning.
If you remember the first few days after Leo's election in May, we had Steve Bannon.
Saying that Trevost was the worst possible choice because he was a socialist, he was a globalist, all of that.
So far, Trump himself and JD Vance and other top officials have avoided, they have ignored the arguments made by the Vatican.
Good evening, Hanwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room.
You'll notice it's not the usual Rome background for me this evening.
That's because I have returned to my beloved homeland on mission, on assignment, and that's where I'm going to be for the next few days.
We played that clip, which has had a bit of engagement on social media.
Deutsche Welle is one of the large German broadcaster.
And you've got the guy, the talking head there, saying how Steve, which is absolutely true, Steve Bannon led the opposition to Pope Leo in the first few days.
And there hasn't really been much said by JD or by the rest of the administration.
And I just want to, you know, I would address Deutsche Welle and all of the commentators on this point because it's a point that is made from time to time.
And it's basically this.
Firstly, we're just getting started in our opposition to the pontificate of Pope Leo.
We're just getting started.
And the more outrageous and lefty and globalist he is, you're going to find that the war room is going to be there at the cutting edge, as is Canon 212.
And we're absolutely delighted to be born and living at this moment in time in order to be able to make that contribution.
So, the first thing is we're just getting started.
And the second thing, it doesn't really matter if President Trump or the vice president are just taking all the incoming that the Vatican chooses to fire in their direction.
It doesn't really matter because the importance is this is a MAGA, it is a And its power and political influence comes from all of you, the war room posse.
Certainly, people like Steve Bannon, when they step up to the plate, can give voice to that movement in their own particular way.
But if the president is sitting this out and JD is sitting out, that's fine.
That's absolutely fine.
The importance is that believing, especially because we do this one hour.
A week's show, we have a largely evangelical audience, but the editorial policy is specifically to bring news for traditional Catholics.
As long as those traditional Catholics feel empowered and feel their agency, which is something that Steve talks about basically every hour of his four hours of programming per day, that's fine.
It doesn't matter if the political leadership sits it out.
So this is a movement based opposition.
And in the end, and this is something we've been asking for.
Since this show basically started five, six years ago.
In the end, it's going to be the laity that will correct course on the church.
It won't be the hiring shepherds, because all those hiring shepherds have been responsible for is driving the church into the ground from its heyday in the 1950s to now basically dioceses having bankruptcies right across the West.
Closing seminaries and what have you.
There are some green shoots showing, and we'll be talking about those a little later with Jenny Holland in the show, who very diligently follows these developments.
But I'll make the point later that what we're seeing here needs to be understood in its context.
The green shoots have a very particular purpose.
Okay, but we'll come to those points later.
Let's start with Frank Walker.
Having spoken about.
Not my Pope VII, just now.
And he is definitely gearing up and making his opposition ever more clear, ever more visible.
He really just, I think he's leaning into now, I'd say he's leaning into his role as heading the international opposition to the Trump administration, doing it from a spiritual, religious background, which of course gives him the.
Protection of untouchability.
He came out and gave what even the mainstream media that often carries his and his immediate predecessors water is calling an unprecedented attack on a head of state.
He basically said that Trump's threat to destroy Iranian civilization is unacceptable.
Now, I have to say, I wasn't a big fan of that comment myself, to be honest with you.
But I think it's unacceptable that a religious leader is coming in here and using certain political events to enter the narrative and trying to get the story all about him.
I think, quite rightly, Frank Walker told me here, quite rightly, the administration's response will be, you know, your holiness, perhaps get your own house in order first, right?
Well, that's certainly what you hear from the leader of the ICE program.
He says that all the time.
As a Catholic, you need to get your own house in order.
I think what happened with Trump in this, he's had a couple very incendiary things that he has thrown out there lately.
And all of the left and the people in the Catholic press that were supporting Leo and saying he's okay and he's very Catholic against all evidence at the beginning of his pontificate a year ago.
They're all very, very never Trump right now.
They're all very against Trump.
So, what you're mentioning, the way Leo is never Trump all the time, and the mainstream press always likes to say his interventions are rare, but he makes them every single day.
His most powerful interventions are always directly against Trump policy.
So, as soon as Trump came out with this civilizational, this will cause civilizational death to Iran yesterday, everybody, Leo was out there immediately to jump, and all the Catholic press was against it.
And Leo said, You can't kill a whole civilization.
Well, he wasn't saying that.
What he was taught, he was just being colorful and talking about blowing up power plants and bridges.
And as we see today, yesterday, every single person in the catechism was going to say, You're going to go to hell if you follow Trump.
We need to, we need JD Vance to become the president right away.
We need to have the 25th Amendment.
We need to have him removed.
Leo's out there.
You can't kill a whole civilization.
And, you know, of course, All of the bishops now, the top American bishops were saying, This is unjust.
You can't do anything like this.
Everybody was on top of that.
And the very next morning, we have a peace agreement.
We have a so called ceasefire, a situation where the peace is there.
And so Trump brilliantly has used all his opposition to make his point.
They've made his point because he's proven to them.
That pacifism is not the solution.
Pacifism never brings peace.
That the war is not really necessarily unjust at all.
You know, there's only been about, I've only seen maybe 2,000 people have died in Iraq based on these combined American and Israeli attacks.
But there's been almost 50,000 people that died protesting the government that's there.
So you have a war that has been fought with limited casualties against military targets.
And instead of just doing by surprise, bombing the other civilizational targets like Power plants, he gave them a warning.
He gave them a mercy.
He told them what he was thinking of doing, and they responded with peace.
He brought the peace.
And all of the people that were against him have been made to look like they didn't really want the peace at all.
So I'm looking at these developments, Frank Walker, and I see the Pope's intervention.
And I'm assuming in his promotion of peace, you know, blessed are the peacemakers and what have you.
I'm assuming when the Pope was making his political intervention, he was doing it in the name of Jesus Christ, right?
Prince of Peace.
and saying the secular unconverted world that you're not going to have peace unless you convert to Christ.
Because I'm assuming he said that and the press just missed it out.
Because all I see here are references to international law in the Pope's intervention here.
Can you help me with that?
Because I thought the Pope is supposed to be sort of Christ's vicar here on earth, the head of the institution that is, obviously Christ is the head of the church.
Christ is the church is Christ's mystical body.
But in terms of earthly leadership, that's the Pope.
I'm assuming that he was invoking the Prince of Peace here, or no?
Unfortunately, I have to say that I think the answer to that is no.
I think that he does not act like a vicar of Christ because he's clearly demonstrated that he doesn't hold the Catholic faith.
Over and over again, he's demonstrated that he doesn't hold Catholic teaching.
Just in a couple of weeks ago, they had evidence of him a couple of decades ago bowing down before a Pachamama demon, which is, you know, it may seem like nothing to some people, but it's very important in the Catholic faith.
We're in a situation now where we have Popes Francis and Leo, who are not Catholic, but they're there sort of as a stunt in order to use for political purposes.
And that's what you're going to, that's what you have to understand about Pope Leo.
He's going to use his.
Position for political purposes, not for Catholic purposes.
We have to wheel back because I don't think we've covered it yet on the show.
That is very important.
Tell me about the photos that emerged a couple of weeks ago of supposedly showing then Father Bob before he was made a cardinal, before he was made a bishop.
I'm assuming that those photos were taken quite some time ago, but the young Father Bob.
Prostrating himself with others, prostrating themselves to this false idol.
Tell me, do you think this photo is even true?
Is it AI?
Is it doctored?
Has it been verified?
And what does it really mean if the present papal pretender was prostrating himself to idols?
And it's part of his, they call it enculturation, but a ceremony.
And Pope Francis also participated in a ceremony to the same idol.
It's really a demon that uses human sacrifice, the kind of demon that they worship when the, when the, you know, the conquistadors came to Latin America and converted it.
Well, this is sort of an anti-conversion, but, but things like that and things like this.
Well, that was completely overlooked in the current press.
When Francis did it, it was at the Vatican.
Things like this demonstrate that the Pope is not a Catholic.
And when you look at the bishop appointments, which mean so much, one after another, after another, after another, they're people with bad histories, people that support anti Catholic doctrine, things that are not Catholic, and support also the problems with abuse in the church.
They create more abuse.
So that's what I was referring to.
So you have to remember that Leo cannot be expected to be Catholic.
Now, he represents globalism, he represents the people who pay him.
Not Christ's church.
And so we have, with this war going on, so much force against globalism, they flooded the zone.
So Leo is full time against it.
It's sort of like a propaganda war, and he's a propaganda tool.
And all the people on the left are using it, including the people, the controlled resistance on the right.
The people that were attacking Trump just yesterday Taylor Marshall, Michael Matt from the Remnant, Bishop Strickland himself, Life Site News.
Catholics for Catholics, which these are MAGA people, Carrie Baller and Candace Owens, and also people on the left like Michael Lofton, Lila Rose, all the traditional Catholics, everybody flooded the zone against Trump yesterday.
Today they're going to start to get quiet.
And Leo is just a part of that.
He's just like they want him to be the leader of that cause.
And people from the hard left like Lawrence O'Donnell are going to help Leo.
And so that's what you have.
You have a tool of the left acting as a Catholic Pope.
And you can't be taken in by it.
And I believe that Catholics.
Like you were mentioning earlier, MAGA Catholics that are discerning and faithful, they're not going to be taken in by Leo.
Well, not if they're watching the war room, they won't be doing.
I think we've had his number since day one.
But just to synthesize this, because I think the juxtaposition is perfect.
The guy currently acting as the honorary chaplain for the New World Order, decades ago, was prostrating himself down to an idol, a demon.
And that's the same Pachamama that the young Alexander Chugo went into the church up on the.
The Via della Reconciliazione took all the idols in his arms, filled himself on his social media, going down to the Tiber, and he threw them all in.
Folks on the wall will remember that it's the same idol, a demon that accepts human sacrifices, is what the present guy, in the name of peace, in the name of the Christless peace that he's offering, is now putting himself forward as the leader of the international opposition.
to President Trump.
All right, well, we'll continue to monitor this.
Frank, stand by.
We're back with you on a similar but related theme in just a few moments in the second half of the show.
Then we're going to come to Jenny.
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Before we go to Jenny, let's have a quick play of the clip that Jenny herself had highlighted for her introduction on the show.
unidentified
I think I just found the third best Catholic church in New York City.
My name is Anthony.
And for the past five weeks, I've been visiting and ranking every Catholic church in the Big Apple.
We're on a mission to make church fun again and highlight places with a good.
Young adult community.
And what happened this week is gonna shock you.
My friend told me to check out Our Savior.
It was a cozy mass, and the priest is pretty inspirational.
But the crazy part happened before communion.
There were 25 young adults who are gonna get confirmed this Easter.
Guys, that's a crazy number for some random church in New York.
And it makes me realize one thing the pendulum is swinging.
Gen Z is turning back to God, and young adults are putting Catholicism on the rise.
So because of that, Our Savior gets B tier.
So let's keep this momentum going and drop a follow to be a part of the movement that turns Gen Z back to God.
So that is a very interesting, Instagram, a TikTok, sorry, video from an account of a young man called Anthony Gross, who was profiled in a Washington Post style section article entitled Why Catholicism is Drawing Gen Z Men In.
And I wanted to share that with you, that particular TikTok video, because what surprised me about it was, as he mentions this much smaller congregation, not the St. Joe's that we have been referenced multiple times now in our weekly.
Look into Catholicism, but a smaller congregation admitting or welcoming in 25, he said, young adults at Easter as converts.
So it really does show yet again that this observation that we have been continually making really has legs, that young men in particular, but not only, young people in general and Gen Z are finding refuge from secular bankruptcy, moral and spiritual bankruptcy.
In the Catholic Church.
The Washington Post article is very interesting, and I do suggest you go read it, especially if you can put it in an archive link and get it for free.
It's very interesting because, well, one small tell is that it's written by not a religious affairs correspondent, which of course would give it some sort of gravitas as far as the post is concerned, but rather a sort of style section trend guy.
But what they say, what the people profiled in it say very interesting things.
One young man who asked not to have his full name given made a point about what they call Theobrose.
So there is this online trend that kind of maybe is sort of a spinoff of the quote unquote manosphere, young men looking to instill their lives with discipline and morality.
And some of those offshoots are kind of a very warped manifestation.
But in terms of the Catholicism, he gave this very interesting.
Sort of juxtaposition between Theo Brose, who are looking to the Catholic Church for rules and power based sort of reasons, versus people like himself who are looking for community and service.
You know, my point though is in that observation is that the rules and power base part of this is actually very, very important.
And I wrote a substack about this last Sunday for Easter specifically.
That actually, the service and the community are very, very valuable and crucial and foundational.
And you can see that with this article specifically mentioning St. Joseph's in Greenwich Village in New York.
But the rules and power are necessary as well.
And we can't have one without the other.
And I think the fact that young men are seeking out the harder aspects of Catholicism, i.e., the strict rules on moral behavior, is important.
A very, very interesting fact point in this article, though, is that St. Joseph's.
Again, in Greenwich Village, New York City, the heart of sort of left wing inspired, sexually profligate counterculture that has then started out as counterculture but became the dominant culture of mainstream America in the course of my lifetime and my parents' lifetime,
went from having about, I think it was 13 to 16 converts per year up until 2020 to 35 last year.
To 88 this year.
So, more than doubled in one year, people joining the Catholic Church and taking the rites of initiation.
That is incredible.
Again, I cannot emphasize this enough.
This is not just America.
This is New York City.
It's not just New York City.
It's Manhattan.
It's not just Manhattan.
It's Greenwich Village.
People are flocking to this church.
Up to 200 people, or sometimes more than 200 people, stay for the social event.
After the Sunday evening mass, it's really something to behold.
And I know that people are leaving, young people are leaving in greater numbers, but it's very important to note that the people who are joining are going to be more traditional and more foundational than the ones who are leaving.
So it might be a quality over quantity or a quantity over quality phenomenon that's happening right now.
I did notice in this story, Jenny, that a couple of people in this article are mentioned as crediting the assassination of Charlie Kirk for their rediscovery of their Christian faith.
And that would definitely corroborate the thesis that we had on the Warren Wright at that time that there will be fruit.
The Holy Spirit will bring about fruit out of that heinous.
Evil act and that would contribute to the revival.
And you come on every Wednesday and you give us these developments.
And this article in the Washington Post, it's not a negative article.
That's what really surprises me.
It's a very positive article in its recognizing this trend, right?
I mean, I think, first of all, if you don't want to be part of a club that is the Washington Post, that's number one.
Number two, though, Is that I always find that there's always backhanded compliments given in these kinds when an establishment organization sort of deigns to descend among the common muck and the rabble and try and give them a fair shake by representing them somewhat correctly.
They do try to tie it to the manosphere in ways that I don't think is fair.
Well, it's really significant because Pete Hegseth is praying for overwhelming violence against those who deserve no mercy at a Christian worship service.
I mean, the Pope comes back with, What about Gethsemane?
I mean, Jesus rebukes the disciple who draws the sword.
I mean, Jesus of the gospel refused the sword even to save his own life.
So, I think one of the positions here is actually rooted in the New Testament.
And the other one is Christian nationalism, which, in my opinion, is a contradiction in terms.
So, I think it's really very interesting that the two are pitted against each other and the Pope is kind of taking it on, you know, heads off.
We're going to finish the point with Jenny in just a moment, talking about Gen Z. Frank Walker, Jenny's talking about all these young guys, these 20 year old guys, the Jim Bros, the The Catholic rose, right, coming to church for the same time, for the first time.
I think that's, as we've made the point before on the show, this is really in spite of the bishop's best efforts and not because of anything they've been doing to encourage this revival that's taking place.
What are they going to think, these 20 year old guys, right, when they're fired up with the faith and they see priests like this?
Where did CNN get this guy from?
I gather he's Chris Cuomo's favourite priest, but I reckon that.
The influencers, the bros, are going to be bringing people into the church.
And just as fast as they're coming in, priests like this are going to frighten them all off again.
And I think that the apparatus of Leo Church is at work trying to find ways to take these young men and twist their idea of what Catholicism is.
They're going to kind of swoop in there and give them the wrong ideas a lot, but they're going to have to use their own, like they have the power of the internet, to find their way through that.
This priest here knows exactly what the game is.
And, you know, both of those guys on that clip, they have a permanent frown on their face.
His manner is so off putting.
I think he's from a parish in fancy Scarsdale, New York, or something.
But that idea of Christian nationalism is just put out there to sort of censor the more power related aspects of Christianity, like the real teaching.
You know, he's appealing to God to strike the evildoers, to strike people that are the bad guys, really.
And use his power against them and to protect their own troops.
There's nothing wrong with any of that.
But he makes it look like what they're saying is not Christian because he's advocating for violence.
And he says that Christ himself told Peter to put away the sword.
But that's because Peter was trying to stop him from actually sacrificing.
That's Jesus.
Jesus gave his life voluntarily as a sacrifice for all of us.
But that doesn't mean that we all need to be victims of unjust violence, which is what.
What Pope Leo and his pacifism and Father Beck, who's defending him, are trying to get everybody to do say that it's illegal to defend yourself with the sword.
You know, they're defending people in Iran, a lot of people.
There's those soldiers there, you know, they're killing people, but they're also risking their lives for other people that are weaker, for people all around the world geopolitically to give them power.
Like the Trump administration writes about people being sovereign in their security document, that, you know, being.
Being people are independent and sovereign countries, and they're trying to help the Middle East become that way.
So Pope Leo is all against that.
Father Beck says something here that's very key to understand Pope Leo.
He says, I think Christians have to ask, in particular Catholics, who do you align yourself with?
Where do you stand?
Do you accept the Pope saying that Jesus is nonviolent, that this war is immoral, or do you look at people who really are having very difficult issues trying to allow Christian scriptures to justify their positions?
They're not doing that.
They're simply praying by using the Bible, like many good Protestants do.
And you cited our Lord's words to Peter, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.
You know, that's a very powerful expression.
And it has been sort of considered, theologians have been looking at that sort of for basically 2,000 years.
And of course, the Catholic Church has just war theory under its belt, which is a key part of sort of Catholic teaching.
I say this because he who lives by the sword dies by the sword isn't necessarily the pacifist mantra that you could, without studying it, easily assume it to be.
It's simply saying that if you resort to violence, that circular violence is going to continue and it's going to consume you as well.
He says that popes never made these kinds of interventions with Americans before, but they always do this.
They interview on wars, they say something.
I think that Pete has said.
Quotes of the Bible are carefully selected.
I think he's teaching the world about what a just war is.
He's trying to help us see the big picture, the full scale picture, not this abridged thing, like you said.
I mean, the astronauts are praying to Jesus.
Vance is over in Hungary talking about Jesus and Easter.
And Trump's putting up a picture of Jesus and the White House and giving these great Easter statements.
It's all very appropriate to bring Christianity back into the place where it belongs.
Trump is even every day, he's saying that he's noting what you and Jen, we're just talking about the incredible growth of religion.
They're supporting it, they're encouraging it, and they're praising it as it happens.
This is the kind of people that America really are.
They're giving us back what our birthright is, which is our Christian ability to have Christian heritage and Christian power and brave men who fight for the country and fight for everybody else too.
It's heroic.
And what Pope and what Leo and this Father Ed Rebecca are promoting is cowardice.
They're calling it justice.
They're saying it's an unjust war, but what they want is failure.
They're advocating on the side of the enemies of this project, just like they did, you know, they do in Ukraine too.
What they want is cowardice.
And they're teaching it and calling it, you know, just war theory.
They are dressing up cowardice and with the veneer of religiosity.
Let me just throw this, because I do want to continue the point with Jenny that we were talking about before.
Let me just conclude then with this.
First of all, here's what Pope Leo said.
He said that God does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them, saying, even though you make many prayers, I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood.
I never hear him ever saying this, by the way, to representatives of Islam when he gets together with them, right?
Point one.
But I tell you what I found most objectionable about this segment on CNN is that his father Beck and Pamela Brown, the CNN journalist, attacked Pete Hegseth's, in their words, unqualified use of the Christian language.
It's just so patronizing.
But only to certain Christians, that they could say, you are unqualified even to use Christian formulation.
This belongs to us.
We are the clerical class.
Now, I don't mean by in the religious priestly clerical class, because you've got the CNN woman there, but we are the superior social clerical class, which of course they are, when the state itself has assumed the role of the church.
They are a priestly class in a medieval mold, and they are saying who can use Christian language or not.
Yeah, and Pope Leo, in that quote where he says, Your hands are full of blood, he took that out of context.
That section of the Bible, the prophet is condemning that society before him as being corrupt in every way, not just in unjust violence, but in every single way.
God says, I don't want your sacrifices if you can't even be good people.
I want you to be good people and virtuous first.
So it's really not about war and it's not about violence.
So it's been taken out of context and misused.
Edward Beck has many lies like that in this picture, including saying that he's not qualified.
But no, actually, but to tie the Gen Z point to what you and Frank were just talking about, like this is the reality.
There is a parallel to this debate about Iran happening in a domestic social.
In the domestic and social sphere.
And I'll tell you exactly what that is.
So, someone like that priest who was interviewed on CNN, I mean, check out the optics.
He's literally a gray haired old man talking to one of the most cosseted and protected and, you know, materially spoiled women ever to exist in the history of mankind.
And they're sitting there giving forth these platitudes about what constitutes justice and what constitutes the proper application of force, as if either of them.
Had ever been anywhere close to the wisdom that is required to make that determination.
But do you know who is much closer, in fact?
Young men.
Young men are the ones who are going to face the reality of a potential ground war.
But at home, young men are the ones who are facing what some people are calling an impending economic apocalypse in terms of jobs.
They're facing certainly huge amounts of economic crisis.
And in terms of cost of living, they are facing a sort of social, extreme ostracization in woke, which is a demonic thought system that has to a very large degree supplanted Judeo Christian values in every single institution, unless Trump has managed to root it out, which he hasn't fully, despite his best efforts.
So young men are in a much better place to determine what is the best moral direction.
That these questions should move towards.
And in the second article that we were going to talk about, which was in the UK Telegraph, not by a Gen Z person, quite the opposite, by an old sort of august establishment figure who's asking his readership to take seriously the issue of Christianity and whether or not it's true.
And he's remarking, sort of anecdotally, that he's seeing a rise in an interest in this among young people.
And one of the things he mentions is yes, progressive wokeness is obviously a huge issue.
But also, it is a very sort of insurgent and confident Islam.
And who amongst the British population are the people who are most affected by this?
Young people, young white British people.
Do I have to remind people about the rape gang ongoing horrors that have not been fully addressed?
And they have apparently not even been fully rooted out, as in many people are saying that they're still ongoing.
So, if you're faced with the young, it's young people who are at the coalface of this spiritual war.
That is happening.
And it's absolutely no wonder that they are not going to listen to the establishment church figures, especially not in the Church of England, for the love of God.
I mean, what an absolute holy show that is all of these platitudes.
And we welcome everyone, everyone's equal, and everyone has value.
Well, then what's the point of even being a church?
Obviously, humans are all equals in the eye of God.
But again, going back to my point with this rules based versus community based.
Perception of religion.
You know, you need both.
But what many people need now is the sort of harder application of rules to protect our own home and to protect our own hearth.
And that is what the Gen Z Christian revival seems to be seeking out.
You know, it seems to me, because you mentioned this anecdotally, empirically, in my own life when I'm talking to people.
About Christianity.
I often get the response that people say, I don't like organized religion.
I don't know where the expression comes from, but people say it as if they thought it up themselves, even though they always use the same words.
I don't sort of believe in God, they'll say, but I don't believe in organized religion.
And then some people hit the rules thing that you're mentioning.
And I get the idea, especially when I hear something about their private lives, it's not the rules that they're particularly.
the idea about there being discipline or the rules.
It's the fact that their private lives are on the wrong side of the rules.
That's really the antagonism.
But they dress it up again with the veneer of intellectualism.
And it's just not sustainable.
And I think it's like, because you and I, Jenny, we're of an age, and Frank as well, that there was some remnants of institutional Christianity when we were at school, when we were.
To the growing up.
The present generation, the Gen Z, has literally had nothing.
It's grown up in a wilderness and they know how barren that wilderness is, right?
That's why they're coming back.
And they've been frightened off by our generation as parents talking about the rules and the discipline and the church wants to tell you what to do and all the rest of it.
And they're looking for themselves and they're saying, actually, the reality is a lot deeper than what we've been sold.
And they've been attracted to this reality, right?
And the Gen Z are the first people to grow up fully digital.
I mean, I know a lot of millennials have as well, but Gen Z are the first generation to not remember a time before the internet.
And so they're also the generation that has been exposed from early, very, very, very early on in their years to the horrors of online pornography, to the shallow competition and performative nonsense of social media.
And also, and then I mean, the positive side, as the Daily Telegraph article mentions to the kind of Catholic and maybe evangelical as well, I suppose you could call them influencers, people who are just speaking even basic truths about religion that has huge resonance to young people who have grown up without it.
I mean, I know from personal experience, just anecdotally, people who have grown up with very permissive parents tend to not be permissive parents themselves because all humans need rules.