Bannon's War Room - WarRoom Battleground EP 973:
Aired: 2026-03-21
Duration: 47:59


=== Poland's Defense Loan Veto (15:19) ===

[00:00:02]  This is the primal scream of a dying regime.
[00:00:07]  Pray for our enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.
[00:00:12]  Here's not got a free shot on all these networks lying about the people.
[00:00:17]  The people have had a belly full of it.
[00:00:19]  I know you don't like hearing that.
[00:00:20]  I know you're trying to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it.
[00:00:23]  It's going to happen.
[00:00:24]  And where do people like that go to share the big lie?
[00:00:27]  Mega media.
[00:00:29]  I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience.
[00:00:34]  Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?
[00:00:38]  If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved.
[00:00:44]  War Room.
[00:00:45]  Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon.
[00:00:54]  Friday, 20th of March, Anno Domini, 2026.
[00:00:59]  Harnwell here at the helm on Steve Bannon's War Room.
[00:01:03]  Straight off with the show today.
[00:01:05]  Cracking show, by the way, Stokes, folks, you want to stay tuned for all of this.
[00:01:09]  We have the president and co-founder of Audo Euris, which is a law organization combating law affair in Poland.
[00:01:20]  When I worked in the European Parliament, I remember that Audo Juris was one of the great organizations combating the attempt of leftwards anti-life judicial activism.
[00:01:35]  I spoke at one of their conferences and Jezy Kvazniewski, as I say, president of Auto Euris, co-founder, joins us today to help us navigate something that took place last week.
[00:01:47]  I believe it's incredibly important.
[00:01:49]  I've hardly seen it referred to in the news at all.
[00:01:53]  Yezi, welcome on to the show.
[00:01:55]  I saw that Karol Nowcki, the president of Poland, vetoed a piece of government legislation pushed by Donald Tusk, former EU stalwart, great Atlanticist, as he claims to be.
[00:02:20]  And this measure would have allowed Poland to have access to some 48 billion euros worth of funding.
[00:02:31]  But it was a loan over, I think, 75 years.
[00:02:35]  And the consequence of that is that Poland would have ended up paying the principal as much in interest as the principal itself.
[00:02:45]  So President Navrocie, who's never claimed to be an Atlanticist, has always claimed to be a patriot who's wanting to put Poland's interests first as president, exercised his presidential prerogative and vetoed the legislation.
[00:03:03]  And I think that sets up perfectly the paradigm that I'd like to discuss with you today.
[00:03:09]  And this is the tension between the sovereigntists, the nationalists in the European Union, and those who build themselves as Atlanticists.
[00:03:22]  Tell us precisely the background of what President Nowotsky did and why he did it.
[00:03:28]  And what are the implications of his vetoing Donald Tusk's legislation, the Prime Minister's legislation?
[00:03:38]  Hello, Ben.
[00:03:38]  It's good to be with you.
[00:03:40]  Pleasure to be in War Room.
[00:03:43]  And of course, this is part of the war that we are waging against the federalists and the centralist Marxists of Brussels.
[00:03:54]  The part that was already foreseen a few years ago when in November 2023 the European Parliament accepted a resolution on the huge constitutional reform of European Union,
[00:04:08]  the resolution that has been not observed, not commented by many of the liberal media, but in fact it has paved the way for the next steps in centralization of the whole European Union and taking over sovereignty of the member states.
[00:04:26]  And one of the 10 points of the sovereignty to be taken away from the nations was military spending.
[00:04:34]  And here we are in 2026, a safe mechanism, regulation of the Council of Europe, named Instrument for Strengthening Europe's Security, Siege Aktionfir Eu Europa in German, a regulation that is presented as best possible financial tool for funding military spending in member states.
[00:05:02]  But in fact, it's a tool for enslavement of the nations and a tool for taking over military activity, military spending, and military sovereignty of member states.
[00:05:14]  The loan that was attributed to Poland is 44 billion CF Euro.
[00:05:21]  It's a very important part of Polish defense budget.
[00:05:29]  We need to underline that Poland has the third largest defense budget in Europe after Germany and France.
[00:05:39]  But when it comes to the share in GDP, we are the first.
[00:05:43]  We spent 5% of GDP.
[00:05:47]  So we are far above what Germany or France and other countries spend in the European Union for defense.
[00:05:54]  And by this regulation, the European Commission aims to take control over military spending of Poland.
[00:06:03]  Until now, Poland was investing its funds in its own production capacity with partners from the United States and Korea, South Korea.
[00:06:15]  And of course, with this new instrument, with the SAFE instrument, it will be the European Commission who will have the final say when it comes to military spending of Poland.
[00:06:26]  The mechanism works as any other loan.
[00:06:32]  Poland is attributed 44 billion Euro.
[00:06:35]  It has to be spent in four years.
[00:06:38]  It's loaned for 45 years.
[00:06:40]  We'll have to give back three times more than we have received in those 45 years.
[00:06:46]  But it is the European Commission who will accept the spending lists of the government.
[00:06:52]  So of course, it was an attack against Polish sovereignty.
[00:06:56]  It was an attack against Polish defense system.
[00:06:58]  And it was an attack against the Polish strategic alliance with the United States.
[00:07:07]  I mentioned earlier in my introduction that Donald Tusk served 10 years ago as president of the European Council.
[00:07:17]  Was he trying to leverage his EU credentials, do you think, as prime minister here, to force Poland into accepting this loan, ostensibly to be used on defense spending?
[00:07:31]  That's my first question.
[00:07:32]  And the second question I'll ask you on this.
[00:07:37]  Given Poland's sensibilities with regards to Russia right now, Poland has spoken very, very forcefully on the need to support NATO and the NATO infrastructure with regards to Russia.
[00:07:52]  Does the fact that President Nowcky vetoed this legislation indicate that is it a sovereignty thing or is it also suggesting that he doesn't actually think Russia is as grave a threat to Poland's security as the government is trying to suggest in order to justify this loan?
[00:08:17]  When it comes to Donald Tusk and his European affiliation, it is very often said that Donald Tusk is the most important German politician in Poland.
[00:08:27]  And of course, it was in the best interest of Germany to have this loan attributed to Poland and Poland and Polish government to accept the loan of the safe regulation.
[00:08:39]  Reinzmetall and other German companies already funded their subsidiaries in Poland, waiting for the loan to be spent in virtually Polish companies, but in fact companies that were owned by German counterparts.
[00:09:01]  Even the Bundes Ministerium, the German Federal Ministry for Defense, openly said that it is in the best interest of Germany for Poland to accept the safe funding.
[00:09:14]  And it was the major point of criticism against the Polish government from President Nowsky and the Patriots' camp that in fact he is taking a loan for 45 years, for three generations,
[00:09:29]  and it is the loan taken in the interest of our Western neighbor, not in the interest of the Polish defense system and Polish strategic alliance, and not in the interest of development of NATO infrastructure and our own production capacity when it comes to defense.
[00:09:48]  In answer to your second question, of course, Russia is a strategic opponent of Poland for centuries.
[00:09:58]  And of course, we do calculate the Russian threat into every strategy, defense strategy of Poland.
[00:10:06]  And of course, under the NATO alliance, it is not the most important threat today.
[00:10:15]  Under NATO and as a loyal ally of NATO Pact, we are secure.
[00:10:22]  And of course, we need to prove our importance in the pact.
[00:10:28]  And that's why Poland is spending 5% of GDP for armament.
[00:10:33]  And it is why Poland is attributing those funds and is also very strategically picking its allies and investors from countries that are strategic to development of Polish capacity of production and defense industry.
[00:10:52]  And that all was undermined by the SAFE regulation, which aims to support the development of mostly French and German military industry with the cost of Polish and other countries' budgets.
[00:11:12]  And of course, part of the SAFE regulated loan is also attributed to Ukraine without consent of the nations of Europe.
[00:11:25]  Poland has already given up part of its tanks, part of its infrastructure, of its army, to the Ukrainian ally, to the Ukrainian neighbor.
[00:11:39]  And most of people in Poland do not believe that it is the best solution now to accept loans from the European Union and to give this money in an important part to Mr. Zwensky.
[00:11:55]  And of course, the fundamental control of your strategic defense decisions as well.
[00:12:01]  My final question to you, Jezi Kvazniewski, on this point before we move on.
[00:12:07]  A lot of the war in policy is particularly interested at the dynamic between the two patriotic blocs, the nationalist blocs in the European Parliament, the European Conservatives and reformists, the ECR group, of which Georgia Maloney was the president until I think she might still be, or at least until recently.
[00:12:34]  And then, of course, you have the slightly larger group, the Patriots for Europe, which is Viktor Orban's grouping.
[00:12:42]  Both are nationalist groups.
[00:12:45]  There's a differing...
[00:12:47]  I think the big difference is on the NATO question and the European defence issue.
[00:12:54]  Given that President Nowrowski, as part of the Law and Justice Party, is within the European Conservatives and Reformists, you've got this...
[00:13:04]  Could you just give me 60 seconds and indicate to me whether the government, not the government, the president has been lobbied by his ECR group colleagues or affiliated colleagues in other national governments regarding his vetoing of this safe loan legislation?
[00:13:30]  As far as we know, it was mostly Christian Democrats, so the EPP that was lobbying in Poland.
[00:13:37]  Nevertheless, it was ineffective because EPP is an ally of Donald Tusk, even though he is the most liberal woke prime minister Poland has ever had.
[00:13:48]  He's a member of the Christian Democrat Party in the European Parliament.
[00:13:52]  And at the same time, both conservative parties, both patriotic sovereigns parties, European Conservatives and Reformators and Patriots for Europe were very much supportive to the decision of President Navrodsky, especially here in Poland, as our conservative political scene is divided between those two parties as well.
[00:14:13]  And both of them supported very strongly the decision to veto the regulation and the implementation act of the Polish Parliament.
[00:14:22]  And we need to underline that the government of Donald Tusk, which is not following the Polish Constitution and does not recognize even the authority of the Polish Constitutional Tribunal, decided to enter the loan and to accept the loan, even though it is contrary to the veto of President Navrodsky.
[00:14:39]  So of course this lobby of European allies of Donald Tusk is effective.
[00:14:44]  It is even more effective than the Constitution itself, even more effective than the Constitutional Act of vetoing the act of the Parliament.
[00:14:52]  And the government already issued a decision that it will accept the loan even without statutory support, even without consent of the president.
[00:15:07]  So against the Constitution.
[00:15:11]  Jezi Kvasniewski, please stand by.
[00:15:13]  I'll be back to you in two minutes.
[00:15:15]  Specifically about this incredible report that you've just published and the conference that you organized based on that.

=== EU Migration Alliance Unity (16:05) ===

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[00:17:06]  So, Yergi, you just published this paper taking back control from Brussels, the renationalization of the EU migration and its asylum policies.
[00:17:21]  And you had an incredible conference organized on this just last week.
[00:17:27]  Tell us a bit about this, I think, is a programmatic position paper.
[00:17:33]  Tell us about that.
[00:17:35]  And specifically, I want to draw the war room's attention to something that you put there on the back cover: that only 25% of rejected migrants ever leave the European Union, which is a horrific figure.
[00:17:52]  I never realized it was as low as 25%.
[00:17:55]  Tell us a bit about not only about your position paper here, but also about the conference last week.
[00:18:03]  Yes, in fact, we have published the report together with Matthias Korbino's collegium from Hungary.
[00:18:09]  And this is the second report that we jointly drafted.
[00:18:12]  The first one last year, the great reset, restoring member states' sovereignty in the European Union was also a success.
[00:18:19]  It was commented worldwide and is part of the political program of sovereign forces in the European Parliament now.
[00:18:27]  It was even again commented by N. Applebaum after our presentation in the Heritage Foundation in DC.
[00:18:34]  So the second report focuses on migration pact that is being implemented by the European Commission in Europe.
[00:18:45]  And it aims to implement the so-called solidarity mechanism in migration, meaning that countries that accept without any limits illegals from Africa and Middle East,
[00:19:02]  like Spain today or Germany before, will be entitled to transfer those unwanted illegals not back home, but to Poland, Hungary or Finland.
[00:19:17]  That's the brilliant idea of the bureaucrats of Brussels.
[00:19:21]  The migration pact under the beautiful solidarity motto will be implemented this year and next year, 2027 January, first trains packed with illegals will be sent to our countries.
[00:19:37]  And the pact itself is part of the larger crisis of European Union since 2012-14, since the beginning of the migration crisis and the German policy of Gratzliche Wilkomen, German policy of welcoming everyone without limits who are migrating to Europe.
[00:20:01]  Either they are through asylum seekers or just economic migrants or just criminals looking for better opportunities in our countries.
[00:20:10]  And with this document, we file a motion to all European governments to take back control from Brussels.
[00:20:21]  Under the European treaties, there is a general rule of subsidiarity, meaning that if national governments are good enough in providing national policies and effective policies in a single issue, then Brussels has nothing to say and the national governments should be leading this issue.
[00:20:42]  In our best interest, is to take back control over asylum and migration policies.
[00:20:49]  We also show one good example of Denmark.
[00:20:52]  Denmark has negotiated when it was accessing the European Union waiver of common policy on migration and asylum.
[00:21:01]  And Denmark is doing much better than other countries of Europe when it comes to migration and asylum, as it is, of course, not obligated to follow the Brussels lead.
[00:21:17]  We propose some concrete measures that are in line with the European treaties, that are in line with the international public law.
[00:21:28]  And of course, we also address the problem of judicial activism.
[00:21:32]  We have two huge international courts in Europe: the European Court in Luxembourg, the EU court, and the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.
[00:21:42]  And both those courts work in cooperation in order to make it impossible to implement effective control over migration and asylum policies in our nation states.
[00:21:55]  We are not entitled to relocate migrants back to their home countries.
[00:22:01]  It is illegal according to the decisions of the Strasbourg court.
[00:22:06]  We are not entitled to build walls on our borders.
[00:22:11]  So the walls built on the border of Poland, the walls that were fences built by the Hungarian government or Finnish governments are illegal from this point of view.
[00:22:24]  And of course, with the European Union taking more and more control over our sovereign policies, we need to strike back and it is part of this agenda.
[00:22:34]  And this conference was about the report and conferences like that was already held in Budapest and Brussels.
[00:22:43]  The next will be held in Paris in order to make it more broadly recognized proposal for all the sovereign forces in Europe.
[00:22:57]  You can see the conference that's going to be up on the screen in a couple of moments.
[00:23:03]  Fantastic conference.
[00:23:05]  Out of that conference, it emerged a figure again.
[00:23:08]  Talking about Bremen in Germany, 73% of crime suspects in Bremen are non-German.
[00:23:17]  Now, you say that you want some kind of coalition.
[00:23:22]  It's a movement speech to say so in Germany.
[00:23:26]  You probably couldn't say, you probably literally wouldn't be able to say that in Germany.
[00:23:30]  But in order to, as it were, take back these powers, repatriate these powers to the nation state from the European Union, a broad alliance is going to be necessary.
[00:23:40]  Now, I realize that Ordo Juris is a bipartisan think tank, though you're obviously quite closely affiliated with the PIS, with law and justice, as is Matthias Corvinus Collegium, quite closely associated with Viktor Orban's Fidesh political movement, even though that, of course, is a non-political NGO.
[00:24:08]  In talking about the sort of alliance that's going to be necessary in order to convince the European Commission to take these responsibilities back to the nation-state level, are we going to see more of these alliances?
[00:24:26]  Coming back to the point I was mentioning earlier, this is very much of a what you've done here, very skillfully done, is you've brought together on this issue the two, as I was saying before, the two nationalist wings in effectively via their political groupings, via their affiliated think tanks in the European Parliament.
[00:24:44]  You have the European Conservatives and Reformists, and you have the Patriots for Europe, Maloney's faction and Auburn's faction, really via their affiliated, associated principal think tanks coming together on this issue.
[00:24:59]  That is just the kind of alliance and unity that sort of our movements are looking for right across the European Union.
[00:25:07]  And they're going to be necessary in order to take the Commission on and win.
[00:25:11]  Would you agree with that?
[00:25:14]  Absolutely.
[00:25:15]  That's the way we are also organizing our conferences on this report and on the previous report on the great reception of European Union in all capitals of the European Union.
[00:25:24]  We are trying to get on board all those members from the ECR and from the Patriots for Europe as well, especially the think tanks that form the back office of those political movements, but also the politicians themselves.
[00:25:42]  In Warsaw, we had members from the Polish Parliament and the previous members of the European Parliament from both forces and also advisors of President Navrodsky who was speaking at the conference on migration asylum.
[00:25:58]  Yeji Kvasnieski, that is sadly all we have time for on the war room with you this evening.
[00:26:04]  I want to repeat the fact I've had a had when I was in Brussels a great deal of respect for Ordo Juris.
[00:26:09]  Great pleasure for me, particularly therefore to welcome you as co-founder onto the show.
[00:26:15]  Before you bounce, where can people go on social media to keep up with your output and perhaps find out how they can get involved and support what you're doing?
[00:26:24]  You may find Ordo Juris at X at Ordo Juris-Int, that's Ordojuris International, and also Ordojuris.pl there is also an English version of the web page with all the reports and documents of our think tank.
[00:26:42]  It was an honor to be with you in the war room.
[00:26:44]  Thank you.
[00:26:46]  Yezzi Krasnyski, once again, many thanks indeed.
[00:26:48]  And folks, do go onto the website and do track down this report, taking back control from Brussels.
[00:26:54]  Very worth your time to reach.
[00:26:56]  Stay tuned.
[00:26:57]  We'll be back in two minutes after this short break.
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[00:27:31]  Welcome back, folks.
[00:27:33]  Well, my next guest, Arian Agashahi, has been on the show before.
[00:27:36]  I'm very delighted, grateful for him to come back to talk to us about this interview that he just had published in the Hungarian Conservative with Hans Georg Marssen.
[00:27:47]  Now, Hans Georg Marsen is an interesting figure because he did serve as president of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution in Germany.
[00:28:02]  And because of Dr. Marsson's publicly professed political expressions, he ended up being monitored via the very agency that he once led.
[00:28:18]  As I say, an absolutely incredible interview that Arian Agashahi has conducted with Dr. Bassen.
[00:28:26]  I gather, Arian, welcome back onto the show.
[00:28:29]  Thank you.
[00:28:29]  I gather you've known Dr. Marsen in a personal capacity as well for a number of years.
[00:28:35]  So I'm sure that relationship of trust helped you there navigate some of these more sensitive issues with him.
[00:28:44]  One thing that came out of this interview, and I'd like to ask you about it now, is something that I mentioned myself in a speech in Sydney a couple of weeks ago, and that's this idea.
[00:28:56]  And I was very happy to see you mention this: that it's center-right political groupings that really represent the threat to the people right now, to the ordinary working families.
[00:29:09]  It's not the left-wing political parties, it's the center-right political parties, because they're fundamentally presenting themselves to the people and to the electorate as the defenders of values which they have no intention of defending whatsoever.
[00:29:23]  You mentioned that pretty much explicitly in your interview.
[00:29:28]  Tell me more about how you arrived at that conclusion.
[00:29:35]  Yes, thank you so much for having me.
[00:29:38]  I was myself for many years a member of a center-right party, the Christian Democrats in Germany.
[00:29:46]  And I came to this conclusion based on a long and to be honest, very struggling past because I decided to become a member of the CDU because I considered myself to be a conservative and I stand for conservative values and principles.
[00:30:07]  And over many years of trying, not only myself but many other people, we could not actually form a majority to succeed Angela Merkel's term.
[00:30:23]  So we had the hope and the expectation that the current chairman and chancellor of Germany, Friedrich Smertz, would be the conservative hope after so many years of centrist center-left kind of policy.
[00:30:37]  But this never happened.
[00:30:38]  And after realizing this, I exited the party.
[00:30:42]  So let me clarify why it is a threat.
[00:30:45]  Arian, Arian, stop.
[00:30:47]  If I wouldn't mind, let me just clarify this.
[00:30:50]  So you basically stuck with the CDU right throughout Merkel, right?
[00:30:55]  Right throughout the end of her chancellorship.
[00:30:59]  You stayed in the CDU all the way through when Fredrik Mertz was sort of leading the opposition as CDU.
[00:31:09]  And it was only after he became Chancellor.
[00:31:13]  Is that what you're saying?
[00:31:14]  I got this right that you realized the base that the guy is basically politically fraudulent, and that's when you shifted your political affiliation to the AFD.
[00:31:24]  Have I understood that correctly?

=== The Melonization of Conservatives (06:29) ===

[00:31:27]  Yeah, basically, that's right.
[00:31:29]  And the reason is because when you entered the CDU during the period of Angela Merkel, you had the hope and also, you know, the expectation that actually the majority of the members, the backbone of the parties, are actual conservatives.
[00:31:48]  And one day we will be able to have a real conservative successor.
[00:31:53]  And all this hope was kind of projected into Friedrich Smertz.
[00:31:58]  Friedrich Schmerz was the conservative candidate.
[00:32:01]  You can find many interviews actually in the mainstream media warning about Friedrich Mertz, portraying him as dangerously to right.
[00:32:13]  And it turns out that he is not only not a real conservative, but exactly a continuation of Angela Merkel.
[00:32:22]  And this is the moment where I think the last possible moment where a conservative can come to the conclusion that if he wants to stand for the principles, the CDU is not the right place for that, at least in Germany and at least right now.
[00:32:40]  You know, we had exactly the same situation here in Italy a few years ago, exactly the same situation.
[00:32:45]  You had Giorgio Maloney, who's being criticized as being basically neo-fascist and all of this, the hard line push on that.
[00:32:55]  And of course, the moment, you know, and there were, of course, some warnings saying, actually, this is this is, you know, she's not.
[00:33:01]  This is going to be fraudulent.
[00:33:03]  She's going to pivot to the center.
[00:33:04]  And as you said, that Friedrich Mertz was a continuation of the Olaf Schultz chancellorship from before him.
[00:33:13]  Exactly the same way Giorgio Maloney here in Italy is the continuation of the Draghi government.
[00:33:20]  It's fascinating how the parallels between these two leaders.
[00:33:26]  I didn't mean to interrupt you.
[00:33:27]  Carry on with your analysis on the threat to center-right Christian democracy generally in Europe.
[00:33:37]  Just want to add, it's called melonization nowadays, right, of conservative parties.
[00:33:42]  If a party in the opposition is portraying itself as somewhat conservative and right, and then when the party is elected on that premise, it's starting to change and transform and adapt the centrist views.
[00:33:58]  It's even called melonization.
[00:34:01]  So yeah, you're absolutely right.
[00:34:04]  As a real conservative, you, in my opinion, must believe in the idea of a marketplace of in the principle of the marketplace of ideas.
[00:34:15]  And, you know, we don't want to have a situation where you have only our opinion.
[00:34:22]  So it is totally legitimate to have different political points of view.
[00:34:27]  Therefore, the left parties who present themselves as left are not the problem because they are honest, they declare their goals, they say what they want, illegal immigration or actually legalizing illegal immigration, bureaucracy, high taxes.
[00:34:48]  All these policies are actually written in the party manifestos of left parties.
[00:34:54]  And it is legitimate to have a party which stands for these principles.
[00:34:58]  What is dangerous and what is actually the situation in Germany is that you have a Party, which is just labeling itself as conservative to the voter, but not fulfilling any of its promises.
[00:35:17]  And this is now going on for actually my entire lifetime.
[00:35:22]  So, in particular, with our history, you know, as Germans, Germans are very hesitant to vote for a party which is openly right, like the AFD.
[00:35:33]  It's portraying itself as a real conservative and also right party.
[00:35:38]  And because many, in particular, you know, people with reputation, with bounds to, you know, higher class banking industry businesses, it is really hard to overcome this guilt associated to German history.
[00:35:57]  And therefore, there is big hesitation to vote for the AFD.
[00:36:02]  And the CDU is perfectly using that by promising this electorate to be the much better alternative, you know, the professional and the serious alternative to the AFD.
[00:36:15]  We maybe have similar goals, but we, you know, we are professionals and we know how to do this political business.
[00:36:23]  And under this premise, they are attracting votes and then they are totally neglecting the will.
[00:36:30]  So you have a parliamentary majority already in Germany between the CDU and the AFD in the German parliament.
[00:36:40]  But because of the firewall, no real legislation is passed based on the actual will of the populace.
[00:36:49]  And the left party leader, of course, know that it will be a big scandal in the media and a backfire if the CDU even would consider speaking to the AFD.
[00:37:04]  And therefore, the situation is: listen up, CDU, you have maybe 30 or 28% of the seats in the parliament, but you need to come with us left parties to get the necessary votes for legislation to pass.
[00:37:20]  And therefore, we will dictate to you what the spirit of the legislation is.
[00:37:27]  And this is the gridlock in which our society right now, unfortunately, is standby.
[00:37:37]  I'm going to come back to ask you a little bit more about the firewall, which is something that comes up Brandt Mauer.
[00:37:43]  I think the German word is, if I've got that right, that comes up very much in your interview with Dr. Hans Georg Marsen.
[00:37:49]  I'll be asking you a bit more about that interview just after this short word regarding one of our sponsors.

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[00:39:34]  Back now with Arian Agashahi.
[00:39:37]  Arian, just give me 60 seconds, if you will, for our largely American audience and explain what the firewall is.
[00:39:47]  Impose.
[00:39:48]  It's like a variation.
[00:39:50]  It's basically the cordon sanitaire principle, but just that the mainstream political parties are applying against the populist nationalist iterations across Europe.
[00:40:01]  But just explain what that is in practice.
[00:40:03]  What does it mean?
[00:40:05]  Yeah, I think for the American audience, the best way to explain it is, you know, think back to the time where you had the Tea Party movement in the GOP.
[00:40:16]  And now imagine the then leadership of the GOP being able to actually artificially exclude everybody who stood for the Tea Party from the party process.
[00:40:28]  This was what essentially happened in Germany.
[00:40:31]  It's not 100% the same because we don't have a majority voting system.
[00:40:37]  The parties in Germany have a different role than in the US.
[00:40:41]  But essentially, from a political theoretical perspective, it would be that you have all the established media, the elite, the mainstream being able to exclude the entire Tea Party movement from the GOP.
[00:40:59]  And so that the Tea Party movement would never have been able to fundamentally transform the Republican Party into what it became now.
[00:41:10]  So all the people who are represented by the AFD were never able to become part of the democratic process of Germany because there is something called firewall,
[00:41:29]  which means we will exclude every single representative from this spectrum, even as he, if he's elected to the parliament, we will not even speak with him.
[00:41:41]  And, you know, I need to share this with you.
[00:41:46]  Imagine if you have a business and your business is openly associated to the AFD.
[00:41:53]  For instance, you are selling services to the AFD, and there are instances, and I can prove that to you, that in Germany, banks cancel the relationship to a service, to a provider of services, if the provider has relationships to the AFD.
[00:42:16]  And so the firewall is not just a political concept, it is actually a spirit which is transforming German society and which has created circumstances so that you have people who have a public opinion and then you have people who have a private opinion.
[00:42:41]  And the private opinion and the public opinion differs very often because people are often afraid to say, yeah, maybe the AFD is not wrong.
[00:42:51]  Maybe I won't vote for them, but I think they are right.
[00:42:53]  Even that could destroy not only your reputation, but Your position in your job and your livelihood at the end of the day.
[00:43:05]  We're coming up to the end of our allotted time.
[00:43:09]  It's been fascinating to hear you analyze these issues.
[00:43:12]  My last quick question to you is: I know it's your view that basically it was Angela Merkel's admittance of a million Syrians into Germany that created the AFD in its modern form.
[00:43:28]  Your interview here with Hans Georg Marsen really does talk about the difficulty of the German state and the lack of preparation for this absorption.
[00:43:43]  One thing that came up in your interview was the state that Germany is going to be in in 30 years' time, whether it might still be considered to be a liberal democracy.
[00:43:55]  And there's an interesting intuition that comes out of that interview on how democracies that become totalitarian survive under their democratic form.
[00:44:06]  Would you just give me sort of 60 seconds on that and then we'll wrap up with the socials?
[00:44:11]  Yes, of course.
[00:44:13]  You know, basically what you can say is that the moment in 2015 when Angela Merkel let in all the immigrants into Germany and it was a unilateral decision by her government, it had no vote in the parliament, transformed not only the destiny of Germany, but also of Europe.
[00:44:35]  You can argue that this decision contributed heavily to the Brexit vote in the UK.
[00:44:40]  You can even argue that it had an impact on the election in the US in 2016.
[00:44:46]  And what happened with respect to Germany is actually the AFD, which you see today, which is in the polls the second largest party in Germany.
[00:44:59]  This party was reborn after the immigration wave of 2015 because the party was already being in lower single-digit numbers.
[00:45:10]  And then after this influx of immigrants, against the will of a substantial part of the society, many people saw only the hope in the AFD.
[00:45:21]  And if you make such a fundamental decision and the people organize themselves in an opposition party and if you then deny those people their vote, not really their vote, but actually the effect of their vote, then maybe formally you have a democracy, but you lose the spirit, which is also necessary to have a democracy.
[00:45:47]  Because democracy is, let me just cite this very important quote for me.
[00:45:53]  It's from Justice Antonien Scalia and it was in the Senate Judiciary Committee.
[00:45:58]  He was sitting next to then Justice Breyer and he was explaining that when he comes to a law school in the US, he says, What makes the American constitution strong are not the civil rights.
[00:46:15]  What makes the constitution strong is separation of powers.
[00:46:21]  Because if you see the constitution of the Soviet Republic, then you have much greater civil rights.
[00:46:29]  But this is only a parchment guarantee.
[00:46:32]  And adapting it to Germany, what is going on is we have a democratic process, but because of the handling of the AFD, this democratic process is partly a parchment guarantee.
[00:46:45]  Erin, we'll pick up this theme, get you back on the show.
[00:46:49]  I will pick up on this theme very, very quickly.
[00:46:51]  Time is running out.
[00:46:52]  Where do people go on social media to keep up with your writings and especially your article with Dr. Hans Georg Marlsson, which I do recommend.
[00:47:01]  All about the president of the Federal Office of the Protection of the Constitution, who ended up being monitored by the agency he once ran for expressing views very similar to the ones you've been doing now.
[00:47:12]  On social media, where do people go?
[00:47:14]  Yeah, so on social media you can find me on xAryan-Germany and the article can be found on Hungarian Conservative, which is a leading conservative publication which is managed by my friends from the Danube Institute.

=== America Voice Thanks (00:24) ===

[00:47:35]  Arian Agashahi, very grateful indeed.
[00:47:37]  Thanks for coming on the show.
[00:47:38]  Last 20 seconds of the show, don't forget to go to Birch Gold, get your mobiles out, text Bannon to 989898 for more details.
[00:47:47]  That's the end of the show.
[00:47:48]  Have a great weekend, folks.
[00:47:49]  My thanks to Spencer at Real America's Voice over there in Denver, Colorado.
[00:47:55]  And of course to Vittorio Santi Franco, who put this show together.