May 22, 2025 - Bannon's War Room
47:47
Participants
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| David, never in a million years did I expect that I would meet an actual survivor of forced organ harvesting, of this barbaric practice that the Chinese regime has been involved in for decades. | ||
| Tell me about Mr. Cheng's case. | ||
|
unidentified
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I can see in terms of the raw data, there's something there, because he's obviously a Falun Gong practitioner. | |
| He's obviously been ordered and harvested, because we've got the medical reports. | ||
| I mean, the x-rays don't lie. | ||
| So I spent a fair amount of time basically just kind of getting the chronology, the names, and the dates, and so on. | ||
| My name is Pei Mingcheng. | ||
| In November 2004, I was forcibly taken from Daqing Prison to the Forest Hospital of Daqing, where they did a surgery on me. | ||
| This is my surgery scar. | ||
| It's 35 centimeters long. | ||
| I'm standing here today. | ||
| Today, as I stand here, I may appear normal. | ||
| I walk and speak normally. | ||
| But in reality, I can never return to the person I once was. | ||
| My left side is in constant pain, and it throbs with every beat of my pulse. | ||
| At night, I struggle to breathe when I lie down, and it is truly unbearable. | ||
| I sleep at night, I can't sleep. | ||
| I can't sleep. | ||
| Peming Cheng was able to come to America with the help of former Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, Robert Destro. | ||
| What did it take to get Mr. Cheng here? | ||
| Because I understand there was a bounty on his head. | ||
|
unidentified
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There was a bounty on his head. | |
| He was hiding in Thailand. | ||
| And when I heard about the case, I said, well, let's get him out. | ||
| And so we had to negotiate with the Thai government because he wasn't in Thailand legally. | ||
| So we got him out, and we brought him here, and the rest is history. | ||
| We put him through extensive medical testing and imaging and everything else, and it's a pretty clear consensus that they took stuff out. | ||
| We are now confirming the suspicions we've had for all these years that Mr. Cheng was a victim of forced organ harvesting. | ||
| We now know that, and the Chinese have confirmed the details. | ||
| Well, so explain to me about that. | ||
| How is it that they could have possibly confirmed the details? | ||
|
unidentified
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Well, they confirmed that the surgery happened. | |
| They confirmed where it happened. | ||
| They confirmed when it happened. | ||
| And what we were able to do, because we were able to get Mr. Chang here in the United States, we were able to get independent experts to look inside and see what's missing. | ||
| We confirmed that part. | ||
| At the time, Cheng had been serving an eight-year sentence and had endured extreme torture and repeated electric shocks. | ||
| The Chinese regime claims the surgery was to help him after Cheng, in protest of his persecution, swallowed a small blunt nail and blade. | ||
| But medical experts say there's no reasonable scenario where the operation, which removed significant portions of Cheng's liver and lung, could have been to retrieve such swallowed items. | ||
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unidentified
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As the record shows, they didn't need to go into his side all the way around his back and through his chest. | |
| They could have gone down into his esophagus with an endoscope and pulled everything out. | ||
| They were fishing. | ||
| You of course are speaking to the sort of official... | ||
|
unidentified
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The official narrative, yes. | |
| Is it surprising to you that there was any official narrative at all? | ||
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unidentified
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Yes, I'm amazed that there's any official narrative at all. | |
| They've engaged on the conversation. | ||
| And as we lawyers would say, that's an admission against interest. | ||
| This is the primal scream of a dying regime. | ||
|
unidentified
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Pray for our enemies. | |
| Because we're going medieval on these people. | ||
| I got a free shot at all these networks lying about the people. | ||
|
unidentified
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The people had a belly full of it. | |
| I know you don't like hearing that. | ||
| I know you've tried to do everything in the world to stop that, but you're not going to stop it. | ||
| It's going to happen. | ||
| And where do people like that go to share the big line? | ||
|
unidentified
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Mega Media. | |
| I wish in my soul, I wish that any of these people had a conscience. | ||
|
unidentified
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Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose? | |
| If that answer is to save my country, this country will be saved. | ||
|
unidentified
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War Room. | |
| Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon. | ||
| It's Wednesday, 21 May, Year of the Lord, 2025. | ||
| Thank you for being here for the second hour of our late afternoon, early evening show. | ||
| I've wanted to do this for a long time. | ||
| You saw that horrific cold open. | ||
| Jan Yekalik joins me. | ||
| Jan, a huge fan, Epoch Times, an amazing show and a great investigative reporter in the best broadsheet in this nation, the Epoch Times. | ||
| I've also asked Liz Yor and Ben Harnwell to join me. | ||
| Ben from Rome. | ||
| Because this speaks to a bigger issue. | ||
| You're an expert on this situation with organ harvesting by the Chinese Communist Party. | ||
| It is so barbaric, so incomprehensible. | ||
| And one of the reasons I've asked the other folks on here, because the persecution of Falun Gong and the persecution of the Catholic Church and the underground evangelical Christians is so out of control. | ||
| With the Chinese Communist Party, and the rest of the world just looks the other way, including the Catholic Church, which has a secret deal with them. | ||
| And I know I saw you on one of the webinars on the Committee on the Present Danger of China, which I'm one of the founders, was so brilliant. | ||
| But let's start with, in the 21st century, it's so barbaric. | ||
| I think we almost have to explain to people how this actually goes on, because people are saying, well, hang on. | ||
| We give these people plenty of capital. | ||
| We have commerce. | ||
| President Trump's talking about a deal now with these guys. | ||
| We're not going to cut them off. | ||
| We're not going to uncouple, maybe strategically uncouple. | ||
| But this barbaric practice, and the Catholic Church has to deal with these guys, let them select the bishops. | ||
| Walk me through the organ harvesting part of this. | ||
| How do you get interested, how you came upon this, and how you became kind of, I guess, the expert in the West on this? | ||
| Well, Steve, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. | ||
| You know, while you were indisposed, if I'll say that lightly, Kash Patel was hosting for you and had me on a little bit about this, and I was incredibly grateful. | ||
| It was such a huge response. | ||
| The issue with this, for starters, is that it's a crime that is something that people don't want to believe. | ||
| In fact, there's a film called Hard to Believe about it. | ||
| I mean, we're talking about... | ||
| At scale, state-sanctioned murder for organs. | ||
| People, prisoners of conscience in the forced labor camps, in the dark black jails, in the prisons, being blood type, tissue type, medically tested ahead of time to the tune of, I don't know how many, but hundreds of thousands, if not millions, and then ready to be killed to order by the regime. | ||
| And I might add, you know, this is something we know has been happening at scale, you know. | ||
| Something 60,000 to 90,000 a year of these transplants that are happening with really no credible organ source, right? | ||
| There's no credible organ donor registry. | ||
| We could talk about that. | ||
|
unidentified
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When you say at scale, explain that to people. | |
| Your whole preamble, at scale, this is an industrial process. | ||
| This is just not one or two bad guys trying to do this for money or some mad scientist at some jail or some prison. | ||
| This is actually state sanction. | ||
| It's an industrial process. | ||
| It's very much like the industrial process to eradicate the Jews during the Holocaust was an industrial. | ||
| If you've ever been to the camps, you see how the German engineering mind thought this down to the microeconomics of it. | ||
| You're saying that this is the same type of thing? | ||
| Well, so that's a really interesting question, Steve. | ||
| You know, there's in 2000, pardon me, in 2020. | ||
| The China Tribunal was convened by a guy named Sir Jeffrey Neese, and Sir Jeffrey basically got all the experts. | ||
| And I would add, I'm not really the expert. | ||
| There's a few out there that are, I would call, the experts, like David Matus, Ethan Guttman. | ||
| A number of people have dedicated their lives to this issue. | ||
| Torsten Trey is another one. | ||
| I'm kind of de facto an expert because I've been covering it for 19 years, and I just know more about it than most people. | ||
| No. | ||
| So here's the issue. | ||
| The China Tribunal is the definitive body of information. | ||
| They took a year to gather all of the evidence they could. | ||
| Chinatribunal.com. | ||
| That's the website if you want to understand the breadth of this huge body of information. | ||
| But here's what they struggled with. | ||
| They asked themselves, is this genocide? | ||
| Right? | ||
| Because this is a much abused word these days. | ||
| But genocide is the intent to eradicate a group of people in whole or in part. | ||
| That intent part. | ||
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unidentified
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Like the Holocaust. | |
| Like the Holocaust, exactly. | ||
| And so what they struggled with was... | ||
| You know, David Maitis estimates it's about, I think he said, a $9 billion annual industry over there. | ||
| So, you know, there's a significant profit motive. | ||
| So what they struggled with is, well, if there's this profit motive, maybe the motive isn't to destroy the group of people. | ||
| So it might not quite be genocide. | ||
| Maybe it's just a horrible crime against humanity. | ||
| I mean, I'm being a little bit glib here. | ||
| But that's the level of debate. | ||
| The question is, is it, you know... | ||
| Fully intentional. | ||
| But of course, we know there's a level of intent because Jiang Zemin, back in 1999, when he outlawed Falun Gong and said, in his words, eradicate this group. | ||
| He wasn't necessarily saying kill everybody. | ||
| Part of it was transform them, re-educate them. | ||
| And if they're if they comply, you know, we can we can let them go. | ||
| But what happens when you use that type of language, that's actually genocidal language, because if the people don't comply and it turned out that the Falun Gong were unusually resistant to this horrible, horrible things they did to them. | ||
| I won't even go to the into the details. | ||
| I mean, like totally medieval methods of torture and horror to basically You know, all Falun Gong deaths, this was an unwritten rule, would be considered suicides, right? | ||
| Because basically meaning you can work on this person to do whatever. | ||
| The point was, when they turned out to be so resistant to this transformation, well... | ||
| I guess it has to be death then, right? | ||
| I mean, I'm not, I don't know, someone was exactly thinking that, but that's the logical conclusion. | ||
| So, you know, Bob Destro, former Assistant Secretary of State for DRL back in Trump 45, he believes it's a genocide, you know, along with Tibetans and Uyghurs, which are the Uyghurs are the official group that's being genocided in China. | ||
| This is something we forget. | ||
| We talk about making deals, we talk about doing this, there's like, they are... | ||
| You know, it's very difficult to get someone to say, yes, a real actual genocide is happening. | ||
| Then our entire eradication of an entire group of people, we officially believe that. | ||
| Well, the U.S. government believes that, according to at least one group, I would argue at least three in communist China. | ||
| So, you know, you got to be careful when you're dealing with a literally genocidal regime. | ||
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unidentified
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When you talk about prisoners of conscience in industrial scale at scale and in 60 to 90,000 a year of these parts are organ harvested. | |
| So that must be from individuals. | ||
| Are these prisoners of conscience principally Falun Gong? | ||
| Do they use this as a target Falun Gong, the the spiritual practice because of this? | ||
| That's a great question. | ||
| So when you look at the growth of the organ industry in China, and keep in mind, there's no organ registry, right? | ||
| They're basically, from what we know, they were using people that were, you know, Quote, unquote, disposable people. | ||
| Actually, one of the earliest accounts of this organ harvesting happening from a prisoner is by a Uyghur surgeon who I've spoken with. | ||
| Now, basically... | ||
| It's the China Tribunal that came up with the 60,000 to 90,000. | ||
| That's kind of where it got to. | ||
| But at the beginning, if you chart the persecution of Helen Gong beginning in 1999, that's exactly when the whole organ industry takes off stratospherically in exponential growth from basically 1999 to 2000. | ||
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unidentified
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We can monetize these people and in doing it, terrorize them so much that they'll give up the spiritual practice? | |
| So we don't know who that is. | ||
| I have some theories about it, actually, myself, but we don't have any definitive evidence. | ||
| We do know that... | ||
| That in the Communist Party mentality and approach, if you are deemed an enemy of the state, if you are deemed, you basically become disposable. | ||
| I mean, they kind of see people in general as disposable, but there's an extra level of contempt. | ||
| And that's why there was this huge propaganda campaign that was launched. | ||
| I mean, they said these people eat their children, they burn themselves alive, all sorts of really extreme things. | ||
| Because you had a group that was incredibly popular in the 90s. | ||
| I mean, to the 60s, was it 70 to 100? | ||
| 100,000, sorry, 100 million people were practicing this in China. | ||
|
unidentified
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In mainland China. | |
| In mainland China, per government estimate, right? | ||
|
unidentified
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I remember seeing it in Hong Kong in the mid-90s, I guess it was. | |
| And I asked somebody what it was, and they said it's a spiritual practice related to Buddhism, and it had this physical, you know, I saw people out there practicing. | ||
| And he told me, I was in Hong Kong, just coming to start for everybody, he says, well, it's all over the mainland. | ||
| And I was like, this is all over the mainland? | ||
| He goes, yeah, it's everywhere. | ||
| It's huge. | ||
| And I did make the comment at the time. | ||
| I said, well, I don't know how long this is going to go because those are guys that don't like people having associations that are not related to the Communist Party. | ||
| 100%. | ||
| Is that what happened? | ||
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unidentified
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It exploded so much? | |
| It exploded. | ||
| But here's the really interesting thing. | ||
| And I think this is the... | ||
| Real reason why the persecution became so heavy on this particular group. | ||
| It took me maybe 15 years of looking at this to actually kind of have this realization. | ||
| Yes, there were more Falun Gong practitioners than the Communist Party. | ||
| And it's a very jealous, you know, organization. | ||
| It doesn't like things bigger than it. | ||
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unidentified
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Communist Party is only about 90,000 individuals. | |
| So back in the time, I think if I recall, it was about 60,000 and it was 70 to 100 or 70. Yeah. | ||
| But anyway. | ||
| There was also this jealousy of Jiang Zemin because Li Hongzhi, who was the founder of Falun Gong, he kind of had the love of the people. | ||
| It was generally known that Falun Gong practitioners are healthy in moral truthfulness, compassion, forbearance. | ||
| People are living by these principles and are very serious about it. | ||
| And here's the really interesting part. | ||
| Li Hongzhi wrote voluminous teachings. | ||
| He's called the master, the teacher. | ||
| Some people don't like the word master. | ||
| But there aren't a lot of rules. | ||
| Voluminous teachings, but not a lot of rules. | ||
| One of them is you can't enrich yourself from it. | ||
| I mean, I'll tell you, these are my interpretation of what the rules are, something every Falun Gong practitioner would agree to. | ||
| Another one is, you know, there's no worship of the master or the teacher. | ||
| Another one is you never coerce someone to do it, right? | ||
| Another one is, let's say you're a really great Falun Gong practitioner. | ||
| You practice truthfulness, compassion, forbearance really well, okay? | ||
| I can't emulate you. | ||
| I can't say you're my great model of a Falun Gong practitioner. | ||
| I have to understand the teachings and live them myself. | ||
| And that's actually what defines me. | ||
| There's no roster. | ||
| There's no houses of worship or anything of this nature. | ||
| None of this. | ||
| It's what defines you as a Falun Gong practitioner is you live the teachings. | ||
| So what struck me, Steve, I was like, this is an unbelievable level of agency. | ||
| Like basically. | ||
| 70 to 100 million Chinese, you know, in the communist system, which kind of demands you be kind of an automaton of the system, right, are suddenly exercising and believing incredible agency, right? | ||
| Compared to any other, there's nothing keeping you in being a Falun Gong practitioner, you know, even in, you know, religions where you have, there's no hierarchy. | ||
| Another one rule would be, there's no hierarchy. | ||
| It's your internal level that matters. | ||
| There's no one to tell you what to do. | ||
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unidentified
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In the teaching itself, though. | |
| Could you take on Falun Gong and then also be a member of the Chinese Communist Party? | ||
| I mean, there were many people in that situation. | ||
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unidentified
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There were many people in the Chinese country that took up the spiritual practice. | |
| Absolutely. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| I remember it was being actually taught. | ||
| There's examples. | ||
| I know someone who was in one of the headquarters in Beijing who was learning it because someone was teaching it. | ||
| I mean, this was through all... | ||
| This is the other part about this movement, right? | ||
| It was all the way from the migrant... | ||
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unidentified
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No wonder they try to shut you guys down. | |
| Well, migrant field worker all the way up to the high-level Communist Party official. | ||
| And there's evidence that people even in... | ||
| The Politburo or their relatives were practicing in 99. And actually, a lot of people advised Jiang Zemin back in the day, do not do this. | ||
| These are decent people. | ||
| It's nonviolent. | ||
| That would probably be another role, right? | ||
| Again, you know... | ||
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unidentified
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But why the crackdown? | |
| They got nervous. | ||
| And why this hideous... | ||
| Because they've cracked down. | ||
| We're going to have... | ||
| They've cracked down on the House Evangelical Christians. | ||
| They've cracked down, unfortunately, a shame to us. | ||
| They've cut a deal with the Vatican to basically eradicate... | ||
| The underground real Catholic Church, the state Catholic Church. | ||
| What was it about Falun Gong that they determined they had to have this hideous practice to basically... | ||
| Not just torture them, but send a thing out there, fear that if you continue on this, you can be rolled up into industrial-level organ harvesting. | ||
| Well, I think that a big part of it was just the scale, because this group was much bigger than anything else, right? | ||
| They've been persecuting Uyghurs and Tibetans, but these are somewhat smaller, geographically isolated groups. | ||
| And this was kind of everybody, but this is the part, this is the agency part. | ||
| Like, think about it. | ||
| If I'm a communist leader, right, and I suddenly, I think, by the way, there's evidence Jiang Zemin believed that... | ||
| In two weeks, he could roll up Falun Gong. | ||
| He thought it would go away in a few weeks, right? | ||
| But it turns out these people do not re-educate easily. | ||
| In fact, there's numerous accounts of practitioners literally Telling the torturer, you know, this is bad for you. | ||
| You're going to suffer for this. | ||
| Yes, I'm suffering now, but you're going to suffer a lot more later. | ||
| That's the approach. | ||
| And people literally walking away from that, saying, you know what? | ||
| Good point. | ||
| I don't think I want to torture this person anymore. | ||
| I mean, the scale of it, just imagine, across all of China, right? | ||
| So the flip side is what it created was... | ||
| The largest, arguably the largest civil disobedience movement in existence today, where you have tens of millions of people going around China. | ||
| The way Falun Gong practitioners do it is they have, you know, they have, there's like an estimated 200,000 underground printing presses, DVD. | ||
| And they just go to people and say, look, the propaganda you heard is wrong. | ||
| Let me tell you about what Falun Gong really is about. | ||
| And by the way, the problem isn't Falun Gong. | ||
| The problem is communism. | ||
| It's the Communist Party. | ||
| And by the way, you should actually quit the Communist Party. | ||
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unidentified
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But you don't have still the mass, what I saw in Hong Kong, where you had 500,000 people in the morning at dawn doing the movements. | |
| That's gone underground. | ||
| That's gone underground. | ||
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unidentified
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Because otherwise they did that. | |
| They wrap it up. | ||
| But there's examples. | ||
| So Freedom House some years ago did a report on China. | ||
| And what they found was despite it being like one of the really top persecuted groups in China, in some provinces where they guess that because of this work, this advocacy work that the Falun Gong had been doing in these relative provinces, the persecution had gone down somewhat because people are just like, you know what? | ||
| I know that regime is saying these people are evil, but I'm just not seeing that. | ||
| We're going to not do it as much. | ||
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unidentified
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Why is the U.S. and other governments? | |
| If it's so obvious and this organ harvesting the China Tribunal, you can show facts and you can also show that this is not a murderous death cult, which is the way the Chinese Communist Party pursues it. | ||
| Why have the nations of the world not come together? | ||
| This is the most barbaric thing I think is out there. | ||
| You have live organ harvesting from people for money and they've kind of targeted. | ||
| These prisoners of conscience. | ||
| Why have the nations of the world not stood up and said, this is impossible. | ||
| We're not going to have any more trade. | ||
| You're not going to get access to our capital markets. | ||
| We're not going to give you guys visas to come here. | ||
| Why have the nations of the world not stood up? | ||
| Is the evidence not there or is it just willful blindness? | ||
| Well, it's worse. | ||
| It's worse than that. | ||
| I'm just going to give you one example. | ||
| So prior to the survivor, where I think you rolled a clip of this Oregon harvest, but I never thought we'd ever see. | ||
| It's just an unbelievable thing that he exists. | ||
| You know, they took part of his liver and lung, big 14-inch gash on his side. | ||
| There's a paper in the American Journal of Transplantation. | ||
| The title of the paper is, a few years back, Execution by Organ Procurement. | ||
| What they did was they did a literature survey of the Chinese transplant literature. | ||
| And what they found was that there's at least 70 papers, and this was not by no means comprehensive, where... | ||
| It's clear that the method of death of the person is the extraction of the organs itself. | ||
| In other words, the dead donor will death is being violated. | ||
| And my read on this is that it's so normalized. | ||
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unidentified
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They're live when they take the organ out. | |
| They get a live organ, which is more valuable. | ||
| Correct. | ||
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unidentified
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And the person dies because either the surgery itself or the care afterwards is not good. | |
| And it's so normalized that they just write it into their translation. | ||
| I don't think they even realize they're writing and murdering people into their research, right? | ||
| That's published, right? | ||
| To your answer, I think there's multiple answers, right? | ||
| One is a lot of people don't want to believe it. | ||
| I've been covering crimes against humanity for two decades now. | ||
| People just don't want to believe that it's happening. | ||
| That's part of the problem. | ||
| Another part of the problem is when you say it's really happening, that means this is why there's a genocide convention, which we haven't really followed very much. | ||
| The genocide convention exists to say... | ||
| There's certain things which are beyond the pale. | ||
| There's certain things that are so extreme that it justifies intervening and trying to stop them. | ||
| Like you just described, it's the most ghastly thing out there. | ||
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unidentified
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Have people gone to the genocide? | |
| Has the tribunal that met for a year, had they taken their evidence and gone to Switzerland or gone to the genocide? | ||
| And where does this stay in the process? | ||
| The problem is that... | ||
| As you know, and probably have covered extensively on War Room, the CCP has a lot of inroads at the UN. | ||
| And indeed, it sits on the Human Rights Council. | ||
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unidentified
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What are you talking about? | |
| They control Geneva. | ||
| The engine room of the UN is basically controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. | ||
| It's the reason we're getting out of the World Health Organization. | ||
| It's a huge, huge problem. | ||
| And if that system is to be reformed, which a lot of people believe it can't be, I still think it might be. | ||
| There's no way to do it without extracting the Chinese Communist Party. | ||
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unidentified
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I want to bring Liz and Ben after the break, but here's what I want to do in leading up to the break, because this is even more outrageous that the Catholic Church could have a deal with a government that does that. | |
| Walk people through. | ||
| We've got a couple of minutes. | ||
| Walk them through the process of live organ harvesting from the victims' perspective. | ||
| I want people to have... | ||
| I want their nose rubbed in this. | ||
| Well, so... | ||
| You know, one of the first examples that we know of is actually head of the Israeli Transplant Association, Yakub Levy, who's been a hero in this, by the way, another someone I would call an expert. | ||
| In 2005, his patient comes to him. | ||
| In Israel, they have socialized medicine. | ||
| They pay for transplants. | ||
| This guy's been waiting for a while. | ||
| And he says, look, I got an opportunity in China. | ||
| In two weeks, they're going to set it up for me. | ||
| They scheduled it for me. | ||
| And Yakub, you know, being child of Holocaust survivors, he says, this isn't, there's no way this is going to happen, right? | ||
| People don't do such things because you have to know when someone's going to be dead, meaning you kill them, right, in order to do that transplant. | ||
| Sounds very macabre. | ||
| But the guy says, well, I'm going. | ||
| So he goes, comes back, he's got the transplant. | ||
| And Jakob realizes, oh, my God, this is something horrible is happening here. | ||
| These are the beginnings. | ||
| We had, you know, a woman came to us whose husband was a transplant surgeon who told her after screaming at night and her demanding that he tell her what happened. | ||
| She said he told her, I extracted. | ||
| 2,000 corneas from living people. | ||
| And that is why I'm... | ||
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unidentified
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Corneas out of your eye. | |
| 2,000 eyeballs. | ||
| Yeah, that's... | ||
| I mean, and all this, this was the rumor. | ||
| We didn't... | ||
| We were just like, this is unbelievable. | ||
| Like, I don't even know what to make of it. | ||
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unidentified
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And the victim's blind after that. | |
| Lost their eye. | ||
| Well, I suspect that they don't leave them around, you know, or they... | ||
| Yeah, this is the point. | ||
| When you treat people as disposable objects, does it matter if they're just in the prison? | ||
| You know, it's just one less mouth to feed, right? | ||
| So, anyway... | ||
| That's when David Matus, who's one of these experts, and David Kilgore, may he rest in peace. | ||
| Unfortunately, he passed from us. | ||
| He was a huge Catholic warrior, I might add, back in the day. | ||
| They were asked, basically, they took on the task of assessing whether this could be real. | ||
| And they found 17 lines of evidence. | ||
| One of them was this two-week wait time. | ||
| It was a very profound piece of evidence for organs. | ||
|
unidentified
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They would notify somebody prepared to pay, come over, it's two weeks. | |
| Correct. | ||
| Think about it. | ||
| For $100,000 or $200,000, That could be your life. | ||
| It's a very attractive proposition if you're willing to forget the fact someone's being killed. | ||
|
unidentified
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They would go after every major organ. | |
| And they would tell people, they would tell those people, it's a death row prisoner that's being used to make you assuage your conscience, right? | ||
| But even the wildest estimates of death penalty is orders of magnitude greater than the amount of transplants. | ||
| And then later, when they allegedly created a transplant registry in China, There's another paper in one of the transplant journals that shows that it's a perfect quadratic equation. | ||
| In other words, they invented the data and they weren't even very good at inventing the data. | ||
| So anyway, it's macabre because you have to transplant from, aside from corneas, you have to transplant from a living person. | ||
| And it's better that way. | ||
| It's a healthier organ. | ||
| You know, you can just imagine what happens. | ||
| And it's the perfect crime scene because you're cleaning it up afterwards. | ||
| And these people, and this is something David Matus pointed out to me once. | ||
| I've never forgotten. | ||
| They're so vulnerable. | ||
| Imagine you're Falun Gong. | ||
| You know, there's millions of people being put into the labor camp prison system. | ||
| You're not telling people who you are because they're going to take your family, right? | ||
| So you're this nameless person in the system that disappears. | ||
| Who knows what happened? | ||
| No one imagines in the early years that it's organ harvesting. | ||
| You just died or something, right? | ||
|
unidentified
|
They disappear. | |
| Okay, short break. | ||
| We're going to get the disgrace and shame of the Catholic Church in signing a deal with these guys with you next in the war room. | ||
| In America's heart. | ||
| War Room. | ||
| Here's your host, Stephen K. Bannon. | ||
| By the way, The Road to Rio for the Rio Reset. | ||
| Birchgold.com slash Bannon for the Rio Reset, the seventh free installment. | ||
| Read them all. | ||
| Do that and also make contact with Philip Patrick and his team. | ||
| Bond market all over the place. | ||
| Financial turbulence all over the place. | ||
| President Trump's big meeting this afternoon with the House Freedom Caucus and more on that. | ||
| It's going to be tomorrow morning. | ||
| It's going to be a long night tonight. | ||
| Birchgold.com slash Bannon. | ||
| Do it today. | ||
| The China Tribunal. | ||
| Was that a Falun Gong thing or put together by the religious? | ||
| Uh, group, your spiritual group, or is that independent? | ||
| No, in fact, this is, it was, it's actually a very powerful group of experts that Sir Jeffrey Nies ultimately convened, uh, you know, a panel, I mean, one, uh, professor of, uh, really. | ||
| Really, really high-level professor from, I think, I always mix up Penn State or University of Pennsylvania. | ||
| Arthur Waldron was part of that panel. | ||
|
unidentified
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Arthur Waldron, renowned China hand. | |
| Exactly. | ||
| So, I mean, this was a completely independent, and that's what made it particularly powerful. | ||
| And they brought people from all over the place, including a former New York Times reporter who had heard some very interesting things. | ||
|
unidentified
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And it was so outrageous. | |
| That's where they got involved and had to have this tribunal. | ||
| It took a year. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay, we're going to get to that. | |
| One of the reasons I wanted to invite my two Catholic colleagues on here, you were on the Committee on the Present Danger, I think a couple of weeks ago, in one of our webinars. | ||
| You said something very powerful that's not repeated enough. | ||
| You said, and you're not Catholic, but you said one of the issues with this secret deal with the Catholic Church, it gives credibility to the regime, to the brutality. | ||
| And it makes it harder for not just Falun Gong, but for everybody else when you have such a powerful spiritual institution as the Catholic Church, essentially in business with them. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| I mean, the Vatican deal is a total head-scratcher for me. | ||
| You know, basically it was penned in 2018. | ||
| It's been renewed a number of times and it makes no sense because the... | ||
| The fate of Catholics in communist China has only gotten worse the whole time. | ||
| Like, you would think if the deal has the opposite effect, you would kind of get rid of it, right? | ||
| Let's assume best faith, right? | ||
| They're thinking, hey, we want to make life better for the Catholic faithful. | ||
| They have not done that. | ||
| But what they have done, to your point earlier, is it basically says, look, you know, to the world, look, the Vatican feels like you can kind of deal with this regime reasonably. | ||
| And, you know, and we can kind of negotiate around who the bishops will be. | ||
| We don't actually know exactly the details of the deal. | ||
| But I remember, you know, just before you were talking about Hong Kong earlier, just before the national security law came into effect, I had the honor of interviewing one of the Catholics I respect most out there, Cardinal Zen, right? | ||
| And of course, he was out there. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| And he was out there explaining why does it not... | ||
| You know, why is this a crazy idea? | ||
| And he was trying, and the previous pope wouldn't see him. | ||
| And it was very sad. | ||
| But ultimately, that webinar, I had no idea how bad it had been for Catholics until I was on that webinar. | ||
| I was like, this is really beyond the pale. | ||
| But ultimately, this is the issue. | ||
| Whoever you are, right? | ||
| Basically, it puts, in Chinese, they call it putting powder on the face of the regime. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| Like, if you know that someone is doing... | ||
| Live organ harvesting, a crime yet to be seen on this planet, and it's part of the normal operations of a regime, right? | ||
| How can you expect good faith in negotiations? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Is there any doubt in your mind that the senior level of the Catholic Church, knowing their intelligence network and how they're dialed in, is there any doubt that the senior levels of the Catholic Church do not know about, particularly since the China Tribunal was not run by Falun Gong, but was these, like Arthur Waldron, these renowned China hands? | |
| Is there any doubt in your mind that they do not know that there is a spiritual practice, Falun Gong, that is under being tortured by live organ harvesting? | ||
| Any doubt? | ||
| I'm sure that some of them know, but I also think that in these kinds of situations, people tell themselves convenient stories sometimes to assuage their complicity. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You're Polish descent. | |
| That's right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
So you know about what the Communist Party did to suppress all religions, but particularly Catholicism in Poland, right? | |
| A hundred percent. | ||
| A hundred percent. | ||
| Well, I mean, in Poland, they were – it's actually – Poland is a fascinating situation because Catholicism is so deep in Poland, right? | ||
| And so the way they did that is, of course, they tried to shut down the church. | ||
| They tried – they've killed a number of the very prominent priests like Popiewuszko very famously. | ||
| But they really couldn't, they didn't really try to squelch the church because they knew, like ultimately, because they knew that everybody would go in rebellion. | ||
| That's part of the Polish psyche. | ||
| They're very, you know, they don't like being told what to do. | ||
| They always felt like they were under Russian occupation, right? | ||
| Even the communists felt that at some level. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And it was so embedded into the culture. | |
| It was so embedded into the culture. | ||
| So I think, I mean, compared to other places like Russia, as a prominent example, that, I mean, there was total decimation. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Of the church. | ||
| That didn't happen. | ||
| Poland was an unusual case. | ||
| However, I did learn about The insanity of how a communist system works. | ||
| And for example, right, we had these in my family. | ||
| It would be like the worst thing in the world for me to talk about anything in my family outside of the family. | ||
| And this drove me crazy as a kid, you know, my very overbearing, you know, overprotective mom. | ||
| You can imagine, right? | ||
| I had lots of things I want to talk about, but I knew deep inside my core I couldn't do that. | ||
| Everybody else was, you know. | ||
| Talking smack about their parents. | ||
| I only learned later as I encountered the Falun Gong persecution and then really started trying to understand, you know, communism. | ||
| Oh, this was because if the kid said the wrong thing, parents are being locked up. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| That all happened, right? | ||
| That was all part of the system. | ||
| And everyone has been, basically, everyone is used in a communist society as an agent in a way, like you're incentivized heavily to report on your fellow man. | ||
| They found that 25% after, you know, Institute of... | ||
| The National Remembrance, the Lestration, as they call it, they found a quarter of the population were impairments in Poland. | ||
| And these are the people that really don't like cooperating, right? | ||
| So you can imagine how this society was. | ||
| We can have this conversation. | ||
| I mean, we're live here, but you can't even have, you know, you don't know who to trust. | ||
| It's just how it works. | ||
|
unidentified
|
This is what they try to do here, underbinding the lives of others. | |
| We would have people watch that movie. | ||
| Incredible film. | ||
| Incredible film. | ||
| I always tell people. | ||
|
unidentified
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You've got to watch it. | |
| It changes you. | ||
| Liz, you're. | ||
| This makes it even—I mean, this is why I wanted to have Yan on, because of his expertise in this area about the organ harvesting. | ||
| And like he said, it gives a veneer that the Chinese Communist Party can be dealt with rationally when it comes to religion. | ||
| And now we know the fact that was kind of blurted out that Cardinal Prevost, when he was cardinal, went to China a number of times. | ||
|
unidentified
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That was never, ever explained to people before the conclave, ma 'am. | |
| No, you know, Steve, I read the China Tribunal report. | ||
| It is horrifying to read. | ||
| And that further emboldened me to speak out against this horrible agreement with the Catholic Church and the CCP. | ||
| You know, we found out after Pope Leo was elected that he had gone to China several times. | ||
| I've got a lot of questions. | ||
| You know, first of all, he has talked about the seamless garment life ethic. | ||
| Well, if ever there is a life ethic, it is this horrendous genocide against the Falun Gong, this forced organ donation program, which is a monstrosity. | ||
| And I want to see Pope Leo, who has been to China 12 times, and I want to know why he went, who escorted him. | ||
| Did Ted McCarrick make any kind of arrangements? | ||
| Did he ask any questions about the Chinese forced organ donor program? | ||
| What did the Chinese government say to him about that program? | ||
| What, you know, were any monies paid to him with respect to these several trips? | ||
| I mean, these are the questions that need to be answered. | ||
| And Steve, billions of people saw him walk out on the loggia and look out onto St. Peter's Square. | ||
| This is the issue that Pope Leo should immediately address. | ||
| One, cancel this awful agreement with the CCP, repeal it immediately, but also to use the power, the bully pulpit of his office to talk about what is going on with the Falun Gong, what is going on with the Uyghurs. | ||
| And for 12 years, there has not been a word. | ||
| From the Vatican about this outrageous violation of human rights and the fact that they're a partner with the CCP, it's unimaginable. | ||
|
unidentified
|
He tweeted today about Gaza. | |
| I mean, Gaza is horrible. | ||
| Don't get me wrong. | ||
| What's happening in Gaza is horrible. | ||
| But this is plain and you've got to deal with it. | ||
| You don't have a deal in Gaza. | ||
| You have a deal here. | ||
| And here's the thing, right? | ||
| And this is for the Catholic faithful out there. | ||
| And I think I'm ready to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt. | ||
| This is an opportunity because clearly there wasn't an interest in the past at dealing with this. | ||
| Well, this is a great opportunity to, you know. | ||
| Be on the side of righteousness and justice and so forth, right? | ||
| But what I wanted to say is what happens when you don't deal with crimes against humanity, this is why the Genocide Convention was signed, in my opinion. | ||
| What happens is when you don't deal with crimes against humanity, it spreads further. | ||
| And this is what happened. | ||
| By not dealing with the situation of this with the Falun Gong, it then shifted at some level to the Uyghurs. | ||
| I don't know at what level. | ||
| I do know it's an incredibly vulnerable population that has millions in concentration camps now. | ||
| We have reports that this has been happening. | ||
| And we know there's a market, and this is going to sound really gruesome to people, for quote-unquote halal organs, right? | ||
| Muslims prefer... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Is that what the marketplace says? | |
| This is an area I don't know as much about, but it's shifted. | ||
| Why wouldn't it shift to the Catholic? | ||
|
unidentified
|
You're saying since Leo's come on now, he can sit there and go, hey, I had nothing to do with this. | |
| We've got to review this immediately. | ||
| Bring Cardinal Zen back, which is who they wouldn't meet with before. | ||
| Explain it. | ||
| Maybe you meet with Falun Gong. | ||
| Find out about this and say, hey, we can't go forward with this. | ||
| From what I understand, Cardinal Zen wasn't part of the conclave, but he was there, and I expect he was speaking with many people about these types of issues, right? | ||
| Basically advocating for the Hong Kongers. | ||
|
unidentified
|
When they signed the deal, he went back, and Parolin and those guys kept him waiting for three days. | |
| Wasn't it three days? | ||
| Liz Shore, they kept him waiting around. | ||
| He never actually got to meet with Francis at all about this. | ||
| I think he met with Parolin. | ||
| Is that correct? | ||
| That's correct. | ||
| That's correct. | ||
| And as a result, they went ahead and renewed it three times, knowing that while the ink was dry, this deal was violated by the CCP immediately. | ||
| Immediately, they kept on arresting priests and bishops. | ||
| Ten bishops are still missing, being detained. | ||
| We don't even know if they're alive. | ||
| And Prevost went over to China. | ||
| Did he ask about? | ||
| All the missing bishops? | ||
| Did he see all the churches that had been demolished? | ||
| And most especially to the topic we're talking about today. | ||
| I mean, you have to live on another planet not to know what's going on with the forest. | ||
|
unidentified
|
With their intelligence network, they know exactly what's going on in the harvest. | |
| Because the tribunal was not run by the... | ||
| Falun Gong. | ||
| It's an independent with some of the biggest names of what I call the old China hands. | ||
| Ben Harnwell. | ||
| You and I have been on this now for years since the first – I remember standing on top of that convent overlooking the Vatican. | ||
| We were there for the pedophile conference, but they dropped this at the beginning. | ||
| I said this is actually ten times bigger because you're giving up one of the most vibrant, robust – it's like the underground church in Poland. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You're giving up one of the most robust churches ever to turn it over to the Chinese Communist Party. | |
| Your thoughts, sir? | ||
| Good evening, Steve. | ||
| Look, back in February 2017, when the Vatican hosted a summit on the forced organ harvesting, I was actually working there in the pontifical... | ||
| Academy for Social Sciences. | ||
| I was a consigliere. | ||
| And I remember at that time, the invitation, I think it was to Dr. Huang J. Fu, former deputy Chinese health minister, and he was invited to participate. | ||
| I remember, Steve, on the inside... | ||
| On that occasion, the lobbying that a number of very strong, committed Catholics were doing, trying to get that invitation cancelled because they said it was scandalous. | ||
| And some very high-level representations were made. | ||
| And basically, without breaking any confidences or anything, the Pope wanted this invitation to go ahead. | ||
| And I think it's what you and Jan were saying before about sort of willful ignorance, willful turning of blind eyes. | ||
| And I was trying, as an intermediary, I was trying to shuttle this information across, and it was difficult to pin down anything absolutely... | ||
| And it's absolutely true what Liz has said, that in 12 years Pope Francis never issued a single condemnation of this Chinese practice. | ||
| How about this then for a suggestion? | ||
| And I'm not aware that President Trump has condemned it either. | ||
| How about... | ||
| An initiative, a White House-led initiative, inviting Pope Leo, along with President Trump, to issue a joint condemnation of forced organ harvesting in China. | ||
| They will have an idea of what the Vatican's, whether there is any reasonable hope of a change in policy with regards to China. | ||
| I think a lot of people would be interested to see how Pope Leo would respond to that invitation. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And just to let you know, there's been kind of unprecedented action in Congress. | ||
| And I know probably a lot of viewers of your show, Steve, are kind of unhappy with Congress action. | ||
| On this issue, there's been unprecedented action in Congress, okay? | ||
| A couple of weeks ago, two bills are passed, okay? | ||
| One unanimously, one with one dissenting vote, okay? | ||
| The first one is the Falun Gong Protection Act. | ||
| And they're both targeting Oregon Harvard. | ||
| The second one is stop. | ||
| The Stop Forced Organ Harvesting Act, which is a little broader. | ||
| Both of them sanction people that are involved in this. | ||
| There's a reporting element on the Falun Gong Protection Act. | ||
| Most importantly, and this is why I expect now this is going to the Senate. | ||
| Ted Cruz is picking up the Falun Gong Protection Act. | ||
| The Senate is great. | ||
| He's a fighter. | ||
| I'm looking forward to seeing. | ||
| But I expect the Chinese Communist Party to pull out all the stops here because they do not want... | ||
| Basically stamped into U.S. law the fact that they are doing this. | ||
| This would be the first time there's been resolutions that U.S. Congress has passed, but this would have actual legal teeth. | ||
| And there's another act in waiting. | ||
| There's five states that are basically, remember what I talked about, Jacob Levy earlier, they're preventing, Jacob Levy got this law passed in Israel that they will not pay for China organ transplants. | ||
| There's five states now, Arizona just signed it into law same week, by the way, that those two pieces of legislation passed the House. | ||
| So there's stuff happening. | ||
| So this is, you know, that's an amazing idea you have of this, you know, joint declaration from the president. | ||
| It would be very powerful. | ||
| And the climate for it exists legislatively, too. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, and it is, as Catholics, it has been humiliating to us since this deal was done and in secret and to be renewed. | |
| And if you see the power and the vibrancy of the underground Catholic Church. | ||
| In Hong Kong, it didn't have to be in Hong Kong. | ||
| Now it has to be with Cardinal Zen. | ||
| Cardinal Zen is a living saint. | ||
| To me, he should be Pope. | ||
| We're going to have to bounce. | ||
| Where do people go? | ||
| Because we're now going to make this a thing, right? | ||
| Where do people go to get more information? | ||
| First, the more in posse, the more information they get, the better. | ||
| Where they go see these bills, where they go see, and I want them to see all the videos. | ||
| Folks, you must watch this. | ||
| You can't turn your eyes away from it. | ||
| It's absolutely brutal. | ||
| Where they go for all the information. | ||
| Well, for starters, for the evidence, Chinatribunal.com, the most comprehensive dump of evidence. | ||
| Come to theepochtimes.com or epochtv.com. | ||
| You can look up my channel. | ||
| I cover this issue somewhat regularly. | ||
| I have a recent piece on American thought leaders. | ||
| My show about this survivor of forced organ harvesting, against all odds, exists. | ||
| And David made his testimony about how he... | ||
| You know, how he understands things to stand today and many others. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What's your social media? | |
| Where do people go? | ||
| Oh, at Jan Jekielek. | ||
| I'll spell it for you. | ||
| At J-A-N-J-E-K-I-E-L-E-K. | ||
| And in a moment, I'll put something up about exactly this issue. | ||
| You can find it on X. On X is the best place. | ||
|
unidentified
|
So X. And you're also going to go to Poland for CPAC. | |
| That's right. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| I'm going to probably speak in Polish for the first time in this kind of venue. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We're going to stream all of them. | |
| I'm not able to make it this time, but we're going to stream all of it. | ||
| Amazing. | ||
| Hang on. | ||
| Liz, Ben, obviously this is our number one priority with this new pope. | ||
| This is a disgrace, and it's also helped destroy the church over there. | ||
| Liz, where do people go to get all your information? | ||
| My website is yourchildren.com. | ||
| I'm going to post the China Tribunal Report. | ||
| Everybody in the war room's got to read it. | ||
| I'm also going to post questions I have for the new pope with respect to China. | ||
| Encourage your bishops to force answers to that. | ||
| And I'm everywhere on social media under Elizabeth Yore. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You're amazing. | |
| This is a thing. | ||
| When lives yours at the tip of the spear, things are going to happen. | ||
| Ben, quickly, give me a minute. | ||
| How big a deal is this? | ||
| How big a deal can we make this inside the Vatican, sir? | ||
| I think all the elements are there. | ||
| Just remember this one thing, Steve. | ||
| The reason Bergoglio insisted on having this overseer of forced Chinese organ harvesting present at the Vatican is because he sublimated everything to the fact that he wanted to be the first pope to visit China. | ||
| And let the horror of that sink in at a later moment. | ||
| There's every reason to believe that we can see something different. | ||
| Follow me, Steve. | ||
| I'm on Getter at Harnwell. | ||
| And I'll absolutely be tracking this and updating the woman posse with the news as we have it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
For the crushing of Falun Gong, the underground... | |
| Evangelicals in 30 seconds. | ||
| How horrible would it be if the Pope actually went to China? | ||
| It's basically the ultimate putting powder on the face of the CCP because you have a regime whose stated purpose is to eradicate religion. | ||
| And the Pope is sort of validating it. | ||
| I don't think that's a good way to do it. | ||
| I understand the mentality. | ||
| I understand the impulse to try to work in good faith and find some kind of better solution for the faithful of the various groups. | ||
|
unidentified
|
There's no common ground here. | |
| I wish there was, but we have decades of evidence showing that they don't have the common ground. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You're a hero. | |
| Thank you, Steve. | ||
| It's one of the best papers in the country. | ||
| Appreciate it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And you've got a readership. | |
| I think you're only back at the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. | ||
| Maybe it's Washington Post. | ||
| We don't know. | ||
| We don't know. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We're going to be back live at 10 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time tomorrow morning. | |
| Folks, it's on fire in the Imperial Capital. | ||
| We're going to cover it wall-to-wall. | ||
| Be up on Getter all night. |
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