Behind the Bastards - Part Two: How Tainted Human Blood Became A Major U.S. Export
Aired: 2025-03-27
Duration: 01:02:13


=== Blood Money in Texas (02:47) ===

[00:00:01]  Cool Zone Media.
[00:00:04]  Welcome back to the podcast.
[00:00:08]  That this is, which is Behind the Bastards, a podcast about how to mine prison labor for their sweet, sweet blood.
[00:00:18]  Uh-oh, hepatitis.
[00:00:20]  That's the story we're telling today.
[00:00:22]  Yeah, whoops, all heps, BC, all of the heps.
[00:00:26]  Collect them all, folks.
[00:00:28]  If you're doing blood donations with needles that have been used on dozens of other people in the prison.
[00:00:34]  Anyway, Ben Bolin, my guest today.
[00:00:36]  Ben, ridiculous history.
[00:00:39]  Stuff they don't want you to know.
[00:00:41]  Podcast Maven Impresario.
[00:00:45]  Yeah.
[00:00:46]  How are you doing?
[00:00:47]  How you feeling?
[00:00:48]  I'm doing well.
[00:00:49]  I got to tell you, Robert, I got a little bit of epaulette envy right now because your jacket's pretty sick.
[00:00:58]  I got a jacket like that, but it's, you know, it's stored away for specific purposes.
[00:01:04]  I apologize.
[00:01:05]  I'm like some guy rocking up to the White House without a suit on.
[00:01:09]  I mean, I live in a place where you get to wear clothing like this regularly because it's cold.
[00:01:15]  So it's part of why I left Texas.
[00:01:17]  I really like jackets.
[00:01:19]  And boy, very few places are worse for needing a jacket than Texas.
[00:01:24]  You heard it here first, folks.
[00:01:26]  Yeah.
[00:01:26]  Yeah.
[00:01:28]  This is an iHeart podcast.
[00:01:31]  Guaranteed human.
[00:01:33]  When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands.
[00:01:42]  I vowed I will be his last target.
[00:01:44]  He is not going to get away with this.
[00:01:46]  He's going to get what he deserves.
[00:01:48]  We always say that, trust your girlfriends.
[00:01:53]  Listen to the girlfriends.
[00:01:54]  Trust me, babe.
[00:01:55]  On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:02:05]  I'm Laurie Siegel, and this is Mostly Human, a tech podcast through a human lens.
[00:02:10]  This week, an interview with OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.
[00:02:13]  I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to the products we put out in the world.
[00:02:20]  An in-depth conversation with the man who's shaping our future.
[00:02:24]  My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI.
[00:02:27]  Listen to Mostly Human on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
[00:02:36]  Hey, it's Nora Jones, and my podcast, Playing Along, is back with more of my favorite musicians.
[00:02:41]  Check out my newest episode with Josh Grobin.
[00:02:44]  He related to the Phantom at that point.
[00:02:47]  Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that.

=== The AI Responsibility Debate (15:50) ===

[00:02:49]  That's so funny.
[00:02:50]  Shari, stay with me each night, each morning.
[00:02:58]  Listen to Nora Jones is playing along on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:03:06]  What's up, everyone?
[00:03:07]  I'm Ego Modern.
[00:03:08]  My next guest, it's Will Farrell.
[00:03:12]  My dad gave me the best advice ever.
[00:03:15]  He goes, just give it a shot.
[00:03:17]  But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit.
[00:03:24]  If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration.
[00:03:26]  It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat just hanging in there.
[00:03:33]  Yeah, it would not be.
[00:03:35]  Right, it wouldn't be that.
[00:03:36]  There's a lot of life.
[00:03:38]  Listen to Thanks Dad on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:03:47]  So, you know, let's get back into talking about talking about blood, the big B. As I mentioned in part one, back in 1983, HMA, that's the company that is doing all of the healthcare and all managing all the blood donation for the Arkansas prisons.
[00:04:03]  They've just been shut down, but then they got reopened after some people who were close to the administration got put in positions in both the prison board and at HMA.
[00:04:14]  Oh, and HMA is Health Management Associates Associates Incorporated.
[00:04:20]  What do we always say about innocuous names, right?
[00:04:23]  Yeah, that's the worst thing ever.
[00:04:25]  Yes, they're just killing people.
[00:04:27]  You really want to just invest in a company called Murder Co.?
[00:04:30]  Because Murder Co. probably just produces like cat food or something.
[00:04:36]  So they're founded by, they're founded by Janine Murder.
[00:04:41]  Yeah, Janine Murder.
[00:04:42]  You know, she's a great cat food scientist of the New Hampshire murders.
[00:04:48]  Of the New Hampshire murders.
[00:04:50]  Yeah, the Grandma's door.
[00:04:52]  As I mentioned in part one, in 1983, HMA had sold a bunch of tainted blood plasma for inmates who were known to be positive for hepatitis.
[00:05:02]  38 units of blood, to be exact.
[00:05:05]  Now, one unit of blood, there's actually varies, and I see because it depends on like how it's like, it's like roughly a pint, right?
[00:05:13]  That's what you should keep in mind in your head when you're hearing about a unit of blood.
[00:05:16]  Now, in the grand scheme of things, 38 pints or so of blood that's tainted doesn't sound like a lot, maybe.
[00:05:25]  However, as I stated in the last episode, all of these are being mixed with tens of thousands of other blood donations.
[00:05:32]  And so these 38-ish pints-ish of tainted blood can wind up being turned into medicine for tens of thousands of people, right?
[00:05:42]  Because any given dose of the plasma being given to hemophiliacs as factor eight would be made from the blood of as many as 60,000 donors.
[00:05:50]  And just one tainted donor can spoil the batch.
[00:05:54]  So that's great.
[00:05:56]  So from just 38 pints of donated blood, at least 4,000 doses of dangerous tainted medicine were made and shipped overseas.
[00:06:05]  At least, probably significantly more than that.
[00:06:08]  Many made their way into the hands of hemophiliacs who required regular injections of factor eight.
[00:06:13]  In 1985, the same year as Clinton, that Clinton's state cops cleared the company of most wrongdoing, a UK hemophilia sufferer named Peter Longstaff tested positive for HIV.
[00:06:26]  Now, because of the way this all works, we don't know that Peter's tainted plasma came from Arkansas prison inmates, right?
[00:06:34]  Because you can't.
[00:06:34]  They're just mixing it.
[00:06:35]  They're not keeping track of here's every individual whose blood is in this batch of factor eight, right?
[00:06:41]  But he had been taking blood products, including factor eight and factor four, since the 70s.
[00:06:46]  And by then, Arkansas was a huge part of the U.S. blood economy.
[00:06:49]  And the odds that blood from Cummins prison made it into his body are about 100%, right?
[00:06:54]  Just given the way things worked at that time.
[00:06:57]  His brother also suffered from hemophilia, and his brother Stephen Longstaff would be infected in 1986 and became one of the first people to die of AIDS in the UK.
[00:07:06]  Given the hysteria at the time, this meant not just that the Longstaffs weren't just dealing with the fact that two of you know, both of their sons had gotten sick and in 86, one of them died, but it meant that they also became the targets of mob panic.
[00:07:20]  Per The Guardian, during Stephen's final days in hospital, the windows had to be blacked out to prevent people taking pictures.
[00:07:27]  On the day of the funeral, the family house was daubed with paint, which read, AIDS, get out of here.
[00:07:33]  It was devastating to the family, his mother said.
[00:07:36]  Pete himself recalled being rescued from his house by his GP and the police because there was a mob outside trying to get him because he had HIV.
[00:07:44]  Jesus.
[00:07:44]  So when we talk about how many people are getting sick, it's not just that they're getting a deadly or potentially deadly disease that changes or ends their life.
[00:07:52]  It's also, they're dealing with this kind of shit because that is where the culture is at the time.
[00:07:57]  The secondary infection of people being dicks.
[00:08:04]  Of dickishness.
[00:08:06]  So we could say then.
[00:08:07]  Yeah.
[00:08:08]  We could say then that not only is this family being targeted unfairly through some groundswell of mob rule, but they're being targeted at one of the worst possible moments of their lives.
[00:08:23]  Yeah, I remember when I was in school in like the 90s, we had like school lectures about how like, yeah, there was a kid with HIV, I think because he had gotten it through a blood donation, and you could still use the water fountain that he used.
[00:08:35]  It wasn't a danger to you, you know?
[00:08:37]  Which might sound silly to us.
[00:08:38]  It sounds wild now, but no, we, that I remember this.
[00:08:42]  Yeah.
[00:08:43]  You were there.
[00:08:44]  Yeah.
[00:08:45]  Just like you were there at the JFK assassination.
[00:08:48]  We know Robert.
[00:08:51]  I know who was there, and I know that he is currently, you know, a well-regarded U.S. politician, but Bernard Montgomery Sanders has a lot of unanswered questions about that.
[00:09:00]  And that's all we need to say.
[00:09:02]  That's all we need to say.
[00:09:03]  All right, we're keeping it on air.
[00:09:04]  Bernie, come find us.
[00:09:06]  Buy some catalytic computers.
[00:09:08]  Yeah.
[00:09:08]  So HMA ultimately settled with the FDA over the blood recall that resulted from this.
[00:09:13]  Their share of the liability was about a quarter of a million dollars.
[00:09:16]  Now, we don't know how much money HMA was making off of this program, in part because they weren't really required to like let people, like some of the regulations about this are like, you don't really need to say in the sense that most companies do.
[00:09:29]  But at least a couple of million dollars a year is probably a fair guess based on how, like, what the company that takes over for them is going to make.
[00:09:39]  Now, the state police investigation largely cleared the department of any serious wrongdoing in their plasma problem.
[00:09:46]  HMA was eventually given the go-ahead to continue operating it with new safeguards in place.
[00:09:52]  Thankfully, the growing panic over HIV and the news of what had happened to the Longstaffs in the UK prompted some re-examination.
[00:10:00]  And even though they were allowed to continue in like 84, 85 doing this, this plasma donation program, in the summer of 1986, a hero emerged.
[00:10:09]  And unfortunately, in this case, the hero is an insurance company.
[00:10:13]  But like HMA's insurance company, after they looked into the evidence, was like, oh, absolutely not.
[00:10:18]  No, you people are going to get us fucked.
[00:10:20]  Like you're so reckless.
[00:10:22]  We're dropping your asses.
[00:10:24]  Right.
[00:10:25]  This meant that the Arkansas prison plasma donation program was again forced to shut down.
[00:10:32]  And this is going to lead to some of the most, I mean, less irresponsible actions than we've had so far.
[00:10:41]  So one of the things that happens once HMA gets shut down by their insurer, the prison board, in which the guy we heard from last episode, Clinton aide Bobby Roberts, is a member of the board.
[00:10:51]  They actually, they come to the conclusion that like that state police investigation might have been shit.
[00:10:57]  And they hire an outside organization to do a better version of the internal investigation into what had happened.
[00:11:03]  Now, the group they picked was the Institute for Law and Policy Planning from Berkeley, California, which is a lot better than having the state police do it.
[00:11:10]  But the subject of the investigation wasn't the plasma donation program itself.
[00:11:15]  It was just the behavior of HMA.
[00:11:17]  So part of what they're doing here, it's good that we get this info, but part of what they're doing is like, well, we don't want to be like shitting on the prison system.
[00:11:25]  We want to make this company who we already can't work with anymore into a scapegoat.
[00:11:30]  So they scoped in and cauterized the woo.
[00:11:34]  Right, essentially.
[00:11:35]  Right.
[00:11:35]  Exactly.
[00:11:36]  Yes.
[00:11:36]  Yeah.
[00:11:38]  And this is how the paper concludes.
[00:11:40]  HMA originally may have diverted the Department of Correction payments to support acquiring plasma centers or to other purposes that may well warrant further inquiry.
[00:11:49]  In any event, it was early in the five-year contract period that HMA established a pattern of contract shortfalls and the ADC accepted them.
[00:11:56]  For HMA, this must all be viewed as profit-motivated business decision-making at best.
[00:12:01]  At worst, it calls for further inquiry.
[00:12:03]  So just like so many crimes are going on here.
[00:12:08]  Yeah.
[00:12:09]  Now, even though it has concluded this again, it's just blaming HMA.
[00:12:14]  So the people running the prison system still want to make money off of blood.
[00:12:18]  So the Arkansas Department of Corrections makes a deal with a new company, Pine Bluff Biological Products, a for-profit business.
[00:12:28]  And obviously one that's not going to continue the same problems.
[00:12:31]  These guys are finally going to be ethical.
[00:12:34]  Finally.
[00:12:35]  Oh, they're up and up.
[00:12:37]  Up and up.
[00:12:38]  Someone doing blood money the right way.
[00:12:41]  Yes, exactly.
[00:12:42]  Ethical.
[00:12:43]  Just like the ethical blood diamonds that I wear in my all-diamond chiffon.
[00:12:49]  I don't know what a chiffon is.
[00:12:51]  Yeah, but you know, yours is diamond encrusted.
[00:12:54]  That's the important part of the story.
[00:12:56]  Yes.
[00:12:56]  And they're not blood diamonds.
[00:12:57]  They're blood plasma diamonds, which is much more ethical.
[00:13:00]  Think about it.
[00:13:00]  That's why I made my money off a platelet emerald mine.
[00:13:04]  Exactly.
[00:13:05]  Exactly.
[00:13:06]  Platelets make the best emeralds, I assume.
[00:13:09]  So Roberts, Bobby Roberts, would later allege of Pine Bluff Biological Products getting the new blood contract.
[00:13:15]  Quote, I think it was an insider Pine Bluff deal.
[00:13:18]  Those were companies set up specifically for doing business with the ADC.
[00:13:22]  Basically, people who were running the Department of Corrections went to rich entrepreneur friends of theirs and were like, here's what you need to do to set up a company to like make this work, right?
[00:13:34]  Now, I know what you're asking now.
[00:13:36]  How much money was in this business for the prison system?
[00:13:40]  Wait, wait, wait.
[00:13:40]  Let me do it.
[00:13:41]  Hey, Robert, how much money was in this for the prison system?
[00:13:46]  The answer is less than you'd think.
[00:13:48]  Here's the Arkansas Times.
[00:13:50]  According to Robert's records, PBBP reported collecting an average of 960 units of plasma a week in fiscal year 1986, calculated at a conserving selling rate of $50 a unit.
[00:14:01]  That volume of plasma grossed approximately $2.5 million that year.
[00:14:05]  According to PBBP's contract, the ADC was to receive $5 for every unit of plasma collected.
[00:14:11]  So here's how the numbers looked in a year when the median income in Arkansas was half of what it is today and when the scourge of contaminated blood products was being felt around the world.
[00:14:19]  Of PBBP's $2.5 million in annual gross sales, $350,000 went to pay inmates their $7 a unit fees.
[00:14:27]  The state of Arkansas collected $249,600 for prison operations, and PBBP had gross revenues of almost $1.9 million.
[00:14:36]  Now, that sounds weirdly small for this.
[00:14:39]  First off, this is not all the money that's coming in through the program.
[00:14:41]  But second, what's happening here is the state and the prisons are getting, you know, a little bit of this money.
[00:14:49]  And most of that prisoner money is also going back into the Department of Corrections because they're using it to buy things from the prisons.
[00:14:55]  Most of the money is going to PBBP.
[00:14:58]  And again, this is a company that has been set up specifically to interface with the Department of Corrections generally by people who had relationships with people in Arkansas government who were responsible for making these calls.
[00:15:10]  So they basically created a free company to siphon off money from the prisons, right?
[00:15:15]  That's kind of what's happened here.
[00:15:18]  Yeah, that's the question.
[00:15:19]  I think all of us hearing this are going to be asking naturally.
[00:15:23]  Is this a cutout?
[00:15:24]  Is this like a proxy to move or sluice some money through?
[00:15:30]  That's kind of, that's an element of what is going on.
[00:15:32]  And there's also serious debates as to these numbers.
[00:15:35]  This is what the Arkansas Times suggests.
[00:15:39]  Sophia Chase wrote for the William and Mary Business Law Review that the value of a unit of blood to the prison was about $100 and the prison kept half of that as opposed to like $5 per unit.
[00:15:49]  So there may have been a lot more going into the system.
[00:15:52]  The fact that the money on this is so unclear in its precise details is one of the things that's shady.
[00:16:00]  Yeah.
[00:16:03]  Now, even if, let's say it's about $2 million that PBBP is grossing, now that's gross not yet net, but they effectively have almost no costs because they don't build their own facilities.
[00:16:14]  They are using a plasma pheresis center built into Cummins prison for free.
[00:16:19]  That's part of the contract.
[00:16:21]  The Department of Corrections handles all utilities and all janitorial work.
[00:16:25]  And it's also guards who are working, reaching out to prisoners to get them to sign on to the program and busting them to Cummins.
[00:16:31]  And it's still a lot of inmates doing the work.
[00:16:33]  So really, PBBP is just skimming $2 million out of this program and handing it to some people who have connections to folks who are, you know, close to the ADC, right?
[00:16:46]  Yeah.
[00:16:47]  So as far as I can tell, all PBP, PBBP, the company did was sell blood without checking to make sure it was safe and pocketed the money.
[00:16:55]  On paper, they were supposed to assume liability for all plasma products produced through this and ensure they provided staff to handle the draw and that those staff were licensed professionals who would check the product.
[00:17:06]  But the ADC also kept giving them inmates to do blood draws and other work that, by the text of the contract, professional PBBP employees ought only to have been doing.
[00:17:16]  Roberts described the PBBP looking at the inmates as, quote, sort of as little cows, right?
[00:17:22]  You'll hear this description a lot, that they're like, this is, these are, yeah, these are animals that we are mining for the products of their body.
[00:17:30]  Now, by 1986, when PBBP starts, we are four years past the point where the U.S. has essentially soft banned the use of domestic inmate blood.
[00:17:41]  However, it continues to be used for export products.
[00:17:44]  Cutter Laboratories, which is one of the companies involved in the nuts and bolts parts of turning whole blood into like blood products, publishes an internal memo around this time that highlights the attitude many in the industry had to the idea of excluding prison plasma donations.
[00:17:59]  There are no data to support the emotional arguments that prison plasma collected from adequately screened prisoners is bad.
[00:18:06]  To exclude such plasma from manufacture of our coagulation product would only be a sop or a gratuity to the gay rights movement and would presage further pressure to exclude plasma collected from the Mexican border and the paid donor.
[00:18:21]  Say it psychology one more time.
[00:18:25]  Yeah.
[00:18:25]  Yeah.
[00:18:26]  To exclude such plasma from manufacture of our coagulation product would only be a sop or gratuity to the gay rights movement and would presage further pressure to exclude plasma collected from the Mexican border and the paid donor.
[00:18:38]  Oh my gosh.

=== How Prison Plasma Laundering Works (02:46) ===

[00:18:39]  Yeah.
[00:18:39]  Well, someone will make less money if we have to use blood that isn't taken coercively by people who have an incentive to lie about whether or not they're sick.
[00:18:50]  And again, when I talk about there being a lot more money, like what PBBP is making is the initial money for selling this plasma, right?
[00:18:59]  And both the plasma and the whole blood that's coming in through these donation programs are worth a shitload more once you spin them out into the different blood factors, right?
[00:19:08]  So this, there's a whole higher level of profit that these companies like Qatar are making, right?
[00:19:14]  Likewise, you know, the U.S. has said we're not using this stuff domestically for medicine.
[00:19:20]  And likewise, our foreign friends in the UK and Canada don't allow blood from prison inmates to be used in medicine.
[00:19:25]  But a system had been devised to ensure plausible deniability.
[00:19:29]  The blood that came out of Cummins and other donor programs in the U.S. was sold to Continental Pharma Crino in Montreal.
[00:19:37]  And this major blood broker resells the whole blood in plasma all around the world.
[00:19:42]  And it also sells to a Toronto-based company, Connet Laboratories, who effectively played the role of blood launderer and sent this tainted blood to the Canadian Red Cross.
[00:19:52]  The laundering process was so effective that, as Sophia Chase writes, in at least one case, the blood was sent back to the United States.
[00:19:58]  So we are also using tainted blood in the U.S. from inmates, even though we're not supposed to be because it's being sold to Canada and then sold back to us sometimes.
[00:20:07]  Yeah.
[00:20:08]  Excuse me.
[00:20:09]  Excuse me, waiter.
[00:20:12]  Send this blood back.
[00:20:14]  Yeah, send this one back across the border to our good friends.
[00:20:17]  Also, blood launderer as a job.
[00:20:20]  This is blood laundering.
[00:20:21]  Yeah.
[00:20:22]  We're in the wrong business.
[00:20:24]  Yeah.
[00:20:24]  Oh, there's so much money laundering blood.
[00:20:27]  Oh, man.
[00:20:27]  Did you ever think about that?
[00:20:30]  I do.
[00:20:30]  I do.
[00:20:31]  You know, I have a shitload of blood in my house.
[00:20:33]  I keep it in the body.
[00:20:34]  People always say that.
[00:20:35]  Yeah, I keep it in my basement.
[00:20:37]  I don't know if it needs to be refrigerated, but make me an offer, folks.
[00:20:41]  If you need a shitload of blood, I got it.
[00:20:43]  Cool store is cool blood stored in a dark place.
[00:20:49]  Coolzone is getting into the blood business.
[00:20:53]  You're legally not allowed to ask me where it came from.
[00:20:57]  It's illegal for you guys to ask Robert that.
[00:20:59]  It's important.
[00:21:00]  It's so important.
[00:21:01]  We can't know.
[00:21:02]  Yeah, it's also important to realize that the fewer questions you ask, the bigger of a price break you get.
[00:21:08]  That's right.
[00:21:09]  And that seems to be an unfortunate truth as this, we could even call it a sort of blood economy begins to arise.
[00:21:19]  That's right.
[00:21:19]  That's right.
[00:21:20]  And speaking of the economy, I don't know if our sponsors sell blood, but they sell other stuff.

=== Selling Tainted Human Blood (03:40) ===

[00:21:26]  So go buy it.
[00:21:27]  And then give me your blood.
[00:21:33]  There's two golden rules that any man should live by.
[00:21:37]  Rule one: never mess with a country girl.
[00:21:40]  You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.
[00:21:43]  And rule two, never mess with her friends either.
[00:21:47]  We always say, trust your girlfriends.
[00:21:50]  I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of The Girlfriends, oh my God, this is the same man.
[00:21:56]  A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist.
[00:22:01]  I felt like I got hit by a truck.
[00:22:03]  I thought, how could this happen to me?
[00:22:05]  The cops didn't seem to care.
[00:22:07]  So they take matters into their own hands.
[00:22:10]  I said, oh, hell no.
[00:22:11]  I vowed I will be his last target.
[00:22:14]  He's going to get what he deserves.
[00:22:18]  Listen to the girlfriends.
[00:22:20]  Trust me, babe.
[00:22:21]  On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:22:31]  I'm Laurie Siegel, and on Mostly Human, I go beyond the headlines with the people building our future.
[00:22:37]  This week, an interview with one of the most influential figures in Silicon Valley, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.
[00:22:43]  I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to products we put out in the world.
[00:22:50]  From power to parenthood.
[00:22:52]  Kids, teenagers, I think they will need a lot of guardrails around AI.
[00:22:55]  This is such a powerful and such a new thing.
[00:22:57]  From addiction to acceleration.
[00:23:00]  The world we live in is a competitive world, and I don't think that's going to stop, even if you did a lot of redistribution.
[00:23:04]  You know, we have a deep desire to excel and be competitive and gain status and be useful to others.
[00:23:11]  And it's a multiplayer game.
[00:23:13]  What does the man who has extraordinary influence over our lives have to say about the weight of that responsibility?
[00:23:20]  Find out on Mostly Human.
[00:23:22]  My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI.
[00:23:24]  Listen to Mostly Human on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
[00:23:33]  Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back.
[00:23:38]  I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting.
[00:23:43]  Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians.
[00:23:49]  Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leve, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name.
[00:23:58]  And this season, I've sat down with Alessia Cara, Sarah McLaughlin, John Legend, and more.
[00:24:03]  Check out my new episode with Josh Grobin.
[00:24:07]  He related to the Phantom at that point.
[00:24:10]  Yeah, it was definitely the Phantom in that.
[00:24:11]  That's so funny.
[00:24:13]  Shall we stay with me each night, each morning?
[00:24:21]  Say you love me.
[00:24:24]  You know I.
[00:24:26]  So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:24:33]  What's up, everyone?
[00:24:34]  I'm Ego Modem.
[00:24:35]  My next guest, you know, from Step Brothers, Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network.
[00:24:43]  It's Will Farrell.
[00:24:46]  My dad gave me the best advice ever.
[00:24:49]  I went and had lunch with him one day, and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot.
[00:24:54]  I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings.
[00:24:57]  I'm working my way up through it.
[00:24:58]  I know it's a place they come look for up and coming talent.
[00:25:01]  He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet.

=== Shredded Records and Deaths (15:12) ===

[00:25:06]  Yeah.
[00:25:06]  He goes, but there's so much luck involved.
[00:25:09]  And he's like, just give it a shot.
[00:25:11]  He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit.
[00:25:19]  If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration.
[00:25:22]  It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat.
[00:25:28]  Just hang in there.
[00:25:29]  Yeah, it would not be.
[00:25:31]  Right, it wouldn't be that.
[00:25:32]  There's a lot of luck.
[00:25:33]  Listen to Thanks Dad on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:25:43]  We're back.
[00:25:45]  So, even under PBBP, this new company, the same problems persisted.
[00:25:49]  Prisoners continue to be involved in running the plasma program.
[00:25:52]  They regularly over-bleed each other because it means more money for them.
[00:25:57]  And neither the prison system nor the company has a financial interest in stopping that.
[00:26:01]  Records are regularly falsified and destroyed.
[00:26:04]  Earlier in these episodes, we quoted from Clinton friend and prison board member Bobby Roberts.
[00:26:09]  He's been something of a whistleblower about the program, but just to an extent.
[00:26:13]  When the FDA published a study alleging that prison plasma was likelier to be tainted with blood than plasma donated elsewhere, Roberts told reporters from the Arkansas Times this.
[00:26:23]  I deny the premise.
[00:26:24]  I disagree that prison plasma blood was more dangerous than what was coming out of the for-profit centers in the free world.
[00:26:30]  Out there, anybody could bleed anybody.
[00:26:34]  And like, but the problem isn't it, everyone has blood.
[00:26:37]  The problem is that it's not being checked and there's a lot of incentives to lie when you're sick, when you have no other way of making money because you're in prison, right?
[00:26:45]  Like, also, you can't just say, I disagree with the premise.
[00:26:49]  Yeah, it's like the FDA.
[00:26:50]  You're not, you're Bobby Roberts.
[00:26:53]  For one thing, your name's Bobby Roberts.
[00:26:55]  Immediately, I'm less likely to take you seriously about medical science.
[00:27:00]  Both of your names are the same.
[00:27:03]  I just, I love the idea of Bob Robb pulling a hot tag base on something where, you know, like this guy might get arrested with a bunch of guns with the serial numbers filed off.
[00:27:18]  And they're like, hey, we got you with a bunch of guns, you know, in your Honda Civic.
[00:27:22]  And he's like, officer, I disagree with the premise.
[00:27:24]  I disagree with the premise.
[00:27:28]  That article continues to summarize Roberts' argument.
[00:27:32]  Roberts bases his confidence in the state's plasma program on the fact that, unlike downtown plasma centers, the ADC had medical records on every inmate who participated.
[00:27:41]  It knew who was safe to bleed, he says, and who wasn't.
[00:27:46]  Can we take a second to also come on, man?
[00:27:49]  The use of the word bleed like this is just so safe.
[00:27:53]  Safe to bleed.
[00:27:54]  Right to bleed.
[00:27:56]  Yes.
[00:27:56]  Yeah.
[00:27:57]  And he's right.
[00:27:58]  The prison has records.
[00:28:00]  Oh, good.
[00:28:01]  And it types.
[00:28:02]  It often knows when people have blood-borne illnesses.
[00:28:05]  The issue is that they don't care.
[00:28:06]  Per the paper written by Sophia Chase, multiple witnesses to the events claim that the plasma center accepted some donations from prisoners known to fail the required qualifications.
[00:28:15]  A previous inmate, Louis Sorrels, described the conditions at the prison.
[00:28:19]  You had prisoners bribing prisoners, prisoners bribing officials, officials offering certain deals for them to bleed for extra money or drugs.
[00:28:27]  Sorrels himself passed away from hepatitis C shortly after the interview.
[00:28:31]  He became infected with this disease during his time at Cummins Prison.
[00:28:36]  And because of the previous scandals under HMA, there are more outside investigations into the plasma program after this point.
[00:28:44]  A few years after PBBP takes over, an FDA inspector reports them for poor screening procedures and record keeping.
[00:28:52]  The prison officials who managed the program for PBBP were also accused of using prison guards to recruit inmates.
[00:28:59]  Despite this, in an interview with a local reporter, prison medical director John Bias, who is like, you know, like the medical director of the prison, right, said this, we plan to stick with the plasma program to the last day, to the last drop we're able to sell.
[00:29:16]  Wow.
[00:29:17]  Okay.
[00:29:18]  Well, why?
[00:29:20]  Given all of the bad stuff, why it sounds like it sounds like one of those things where the public wider audience is somehow different from the specific audience this guy is speaking to.
[00:29:37]  Yeah, maybe.
[00:29:39]  He might be given some guarantees.
[00:29:41]  Yeah.
[00:29:42]  Now, in 1991, a company from New York takes the contract from PBBP, and they continue to mine prisoners for blood plasma until 1994.
[00:29:51]  By this point, not only was the HIV crisis more fully understood, but the consequences of all those years of tainted blood getting shotgunned out onto the world market had become undeniable.
[00:30:01]  And this is where we get to the body count.
[00:30:03]  Best as we can tell, more than a thousand Canadian hemophiliacs were dosed with tainted blood from Cummins Prison alone.
[00:30:10]  During this timeframe, 42,000 Canadians were infected with hepatitis C and thousands more with HIV through tainted plasma, often including plasma imported from Cummins.
[00:30:23]  Current estimates expect about 7,000 total deaths of Canadian citizens from contaminated blood sold by the U.S. during this period.
[00:30:31]  About two 9-11s, a little more.
[00:30:33]  And to be clear, these are all, for everyone listening, these are all innocent people who are easily preventable deaths, too.
[00:30:41]  Yes.
[00:30:41]  Easily preventable deaths.
[00:30:43]  Also, this is medicine that they need to leave.
[00:30:47]  Yes.
[00:30:48]  Yes.
[00:30:49]  And the shockwaves in Canada.
[00:30:51]  Canada takes substantial action here, right?
[00:30:53]  The Canadian Red Cross has to declare bankruptcy and is no longer allowed to collect blood as a result of the fallout of this.
[00:30:59]  The Canadian government launched a commission in 1995 to trace the blood that had poisoned so many of their citizens, which is how we first learned that Canada's blood supply had been tainted by blood from sick U.S. prison inmates, right?
[00:31:11]  They trace a lot of it back to Cummins.
[00:31:14]  Connot Laboratories, which is the Canadian company that's like making the blood product, was obviously proven negligent in all this, largely because they had avoided checking any of the plasma collection sites themselves and had relied on FDA records, which were also deficient.
[00:31:28]  Subsequent investigation showed that Arkansas, it's a little bit like if you've heard the story of like the rust shooting, right?
[00:31:34]  Where like the first AD, the assistant director, was supposed to check the gun to see if it was empty, alongside the armorer was also supposed to check the gun to see if it was empty.
[00:31:45]  And the first AD didn't really do a check because he assumed the armorer had done it, right?
[00:31:49]  And the armorer had not done it.
[00:31:50]  It's like that, right?
[00:31:51]  Like Connacht was just like, the FDA has probably got it.
[00:31:54]  We don't need to spend any money checking.
[00:31:56]  And like, they really did.
[00:31:56]  The FDA didn't have it, you know?
[00:32:00]  Subsequent investigation showed that Arkansas prison blood was a significant contributor to Canada's Hep C and HIV crisis in this period, and that both U.S. blood brokers and the FDA failed to inform Canadian companies where the blood they were buying had come from, and that much of it was being sent from facilities which had already been linked to tainted blood sales.
[00:32:20]  There have been attempts at lawsuits over this, but the difficulties of carrying out such a suit cross-border have mostly stymied the efforts of Canadian hemophiliacs to get justice.
[00:32:29]  As I discussed earlier, a good deal of the tainted blood from the U.S. also went to Great Britain, where it helped cause what Lord Robert Winston described as the worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS.
[00:32:44]  All thanks to our American friends.
[00:32:48]  The worst.
[00:32:50]  The young upstarts.
[00:32:52]  Yeah.
[00:32:52]  Yeah.
[00:32:53]  Oh, our shitty cousins grab the bag once again.
[00:32:57]  Yeah.
[00:32:57]  From that article by Sophia Chase, most of the victims believe the blood and clotting factors they were using came from British donors.
[00:33:04]  The possibility that the blood might have been imported did not even occur to them, much less the prospect that it might not meet British health standards.
[00:33:11]  The disaster left 4,670 British hemophiliacs infected with hepatitis C, and 1,243 of those were also infected with HIV.
[00:33:20]  About 2,000 have died at this point, right?
[00:33:24]  Also, many of them spread diseases to partners and children.
[00:33:27]  We'll never fully have an understanding of the exact concept, but at least 2,000 dead.
[00:33:32]  And again, there were like, you know, investigations into this as well.
[00:33:35]  Quote, it ultimately determined that A, a significant burden of responsibility for tainted blood provided to British hemophiliacs rests on American suppliers of factor VIII concentrate.
[00:33:46]  Now, due to the way things were done at the time, it was not possible to determine how many of those deaths were directly linked to Commons prison.
[00:33:53]  Again, there have been changes in how stuff is reported to try and make it easier to trace back tainted blood, but that didn't exist at the time.
[00:33:59]  We know at least three, right?
[00:34:01]  So we know it was happening.
[00:34:03]  It's got to be thousands more than that, right?
[00:34:05]  Because it's incredibly hard to actually trace this, right?
[00:34:09]  In part because one of the things they found when they realized how many British people had gotten HIV and hepatitis and were dying, they found that most of the records for blood transactions to import blood into the UK had been shredded in the early 1990s.
[00:34:25]  Accidentally.
[00:34:26]  Surely.
[00:34:28]  Oops.
[00:34:30]  Surely nothing shady there.
[00:34:32]  Right, right.
[00:34:34]  Have you ever found yourself in that situation?
[00:34:36]  Oh, gosh.
[00:34:37]  Whoopsie doodles.
[00:34:38]  Yeah.
[00:34:39]  Whoops.
[00:34:40]  You just trip with a stack of papers and you fall toward the shredder.
[00:34:45]  I'm always shredding medical documents.
[00:34:47]  That's like 80% of my day job is shredding medical documents from the UK.
[00:34:52]  I don't even know what they're about.
[00:34:53]  You know, they just send it to me in boxes and I just shred.
[00:34:56]  That's how you and I got started before this whole podcasting thing.
[00:35:00]  We would just hang out and throw some stuff into shredders and that's the future of media shredding British medical paperwork.
[00:35:09]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:35:10]  We weren't entirely wrong, but we had too much blood back when we had, we did have way too much blood.
[00:35:16]  Yeah.
[00:35:17]  So it may seem baffling that like there was not more oversight given the way things work with the NA, especially at this point worked at the NHS.
[00:35:26]  But the blood export industry in the UK was considered uniquely favored, right?
[00:35:32]  Which means they were exempt from some of the same oversight because, number one, and this is the same in Canada, not nearly enough British people or Canadians were donating blood.
[00:35:41]  They just didn't have enough.
[00:35:42]  And the U.S. was considered the gold standard planet-wide for blood distribution because no one else could gather and disseminate anywhere.
[00:35:51]  Again, 70% of the blood products worldwide coming from the U.S.
[00:35:58]  No one else is close.
[00:36:00]  So everyone is just like, they must have this shit figured out, right?
[00:36:04]  No.
[00:36:06]  But yeah, but because our system was the largest by far, everyone relied on it and it became the global standard.
[00:36:12]  And other national healthcare agencies and companies just sort of assumed that U.S. regulators had our shit together because the only other option was to not have enough blood.
[00:36:22]  Now, that's the bulk of this story.
[00:36:26]  But before we close out here, I should talk about something.
[00:36:30]  So there is apparently an exceptional documentary made about all this called Factor 8, the Arkansas Prison Blood Scandal.
[00:36:38]  It was made by Kelly Duda, a filmmaker and investigative journalist who won a Peabody Award in 2003 for a Japanese documentary about the cover-up by the government of a Hep C epidemic.
[00:36:48]  She spent eight years researching and five years filming this movie, which prompted an international response.
[00:36:53]  And even she gets called into a criminal trial in Naples for a company accused of selling tainted blood products to Italian citizens.
[00:36:59]  It's supposed to be excellent.
[00:37:01]  I haven't seen it and I wanted to.
[00:37:03]  It is not available anywhere online that I can find.
[00:37:08]  When you look on like Reddits and stuff, it will be all, it's always blamed on the Clintons, right?
[00:37:13]  That like they stopped this documentary from getting out.
[00:37:16]  I know that Duda has alleged she received like harassment and stuff while she was making the documentary.
[00:37:22]  That said, when you talk about like the bad things the Clintons did, this is especially Bill, an incredibly powerful man who was involved in a lot of shady stuff.
[00:37:31]  There's also a whole industry of right-wing content dedicated to like lying about shit, including like the Clinton murder list and stuff.
[00:37:38]  It's just nonsense, right?
[00:37:39]  So it's difficult to parse a lot of stuff out.
[00:37:43]  Now, there is no doubting that Bill Clinton deserves a massive degree of blame for the Arkansas blood scandal because he was the governor and because he put people who were close to him directly in positions to manage the program.
[00:37:55]  No argument, period, that he does not deserve a meaningful amount of blame for this, right?
[00:38:02]  But a lot of these other allegations, right?
[00:38:05]  Like the fact that are the Clintons locking down access?
[00:38:08]  Have they used their influence?
[00:38:10]  It's like, I mean, it's not powerful people do that with documentaries, but also a lot of the time I'm doing episodes, I found out there's a 20-year-old documentary about it.
[00:38:21]  And I can't find that documentary because it's not on streaming.
[00:38:23]  That just happens with media.
[00:38:25]  So like, is the likeliest thing the Clintons locked?
[00:38:28]  I don't, I don't, I have no evidence of that, right?
[00:38:31]  I've had this happen to a bunch of documentaries over the years.
[00:38:34]  That said, I would love to see this documentary.
[00:38:38]  So if you've got it, hit us up.
[00:38:43]  And I don't know, someone put it on fucking streaming.
[00:38:46]  Now, the most credible allegations that I've heard when it comes to like, you know, the corruption here is that money from this blood program was used to provide positions to people as political favors where they could profit while doing very little.
[00:38:59]  And it's certainly true that the State Department of Corrections doesn't make a ton from the blood program, right?
[00:39:06]  However, other people in and around the state government make an unknown amount of money acting as grease around HMA and then PBBP's wheels here.
[00:39:14]  One example is Leonard Dunn.
[00:39:16]  That is the guy who gets brought in to run HMA right around the time of the first blood scandal.
[00:39:21]  He's a banker.
[00:39:22]  A state police investigator wrote that Dunn had advised him, quote, he was close to Governor Clinton, as well as a majority of state politicians presently in office.
[00:39:30]  Mr. Dunn explained that he was very fond of politics.
[00:39:33]  Dunn added that he was the financial portion of the corporation as well as the political arm.
[00:39:38]  Despite this, he also claimed he never took an active role in the company on a day-to-day basis.
[00:39:44]  Okay, man.
[00:39:45]  Oh, sure.
[00:39:46]  Sure.
[00:39:47]  Yeah, good story, bro.
[00:39:49]  But Dunn does handle when HMA loses the contract briefly, he is the guy negotiating with the corrections board so that it can keep taking and selling plasma.
[00:39:58]  And since his company had just paid out to the FDA for letting tainted blood out of the country, you might imagine these would be difficult negotiations.
[00:40:06]  But the main result of these negotiations was that Dunn, in order to get the corrections board to agree, agreed to bring in an ombudsman to act as a compliance coordinator to ensure HMA followed the rules going forward.

=== Negotiating the Plasma Contracts (05:25) ===

[00:40:19]  This ombudsman was Richard Mays, a little rock judge who had been appointed by Governor Clinton.
[00:40:24]  His job at HMA was described by the state police as a bribe.
[00:40:31]  Because again, he's not really doing anything.
[00:40:32]  They're just like, yeah, just give another guy who like we owe a favor a job and pay him some money.
[00:40:36]  He doesn't have to do much.
[00:40:38]  Yeah, let's make it official with our bud.
[00:40:40]  Yeah.
[00:40:41]  Now you're an alms bud.
[00:40:42]  Yeah, right.
[00:40:43]  Yeah.
[00:40:44]  Now, the specific choice to bring on Dunn seems to have been made by the Arkansas board of corrections chairman Woodson Rocker, Walker, who claimed that he discussed it with Governor Clinton, who was so upset that he held Walker personally responsible for the next provider chosen.
[00:41:01]  And Walker and Clinton jointly suggested Mays, right?
[00:41:06]  That's what Walker claims.
[00:41:08]  You know, obviously he's in trouble here.
[00:41:10]  So, but, you know, the fact that this guy who Clinton appoints as a judge becomes gets this bribe job, I don't think Clinton had nothing to do with that.
[00:41:18]  To quote from Susie Parker's article, HMA President Dunn told investigators, Dunn stated that Walker advised him that Mays was black, a plus in a system where most of the inmates are black, had good qualifications, and was an outstanding attorney, according to investigators' notes.
[00:41:32]  I like the order of operations with those commendations.
[00:41:37]  Oh, and third, he's pretty good lawyer.
[00:41:39]  Yeah.
[00:41:40]  Yeah.
[00:41:40]  He's all right at that one.
[00:41:41]  But first.
[00:41:42]  Yeah.
[00:41:42]  Now, obviously, I'm not saying he's not a good attorney, but he doesn't have qualifications to monitor a blood plasma donation program.
[00:41:52]  Like, yeah, like that's like saying, you know, this guy's a great helicopter pilot.
[00:41:57]  Let's put him in charge of making sure all the hearts we get put in people are working.
[00:42:02]  It's like, he doesn't know how to do that.
[00:42:04]  Like, yes, you hadn't seen him on the bird.
[00:42:07]  Yeah.
[00:42:07]  You know what I mean?
[00:42:08]  Man, the way this guy flies, he could really pick out a good kidney.
[00:42:13]  You could just, it's something in the eyes.
[00:42:15]  You know, it's a vibe.
[00:42:16]  Simply not the same job.
[00:42:19]  Now, there are other allegations of kickbacks and bribery at high levels in the system.
[00:42:22]  Mike Goulster was a medical practitioner who worked in Cummins prison during the height of the HMA days, and he later wrote a fictionalized novel about his experiences and claimed that he had to leave the company after an HMA associate demanded he give some of his earnings to him in order to keep his job.
[00:42:38]  Quote, the way Arkansas works is that once you are working within the system, the people in charge make it clear that it is a privilege to have that state contract.
[00:42:46]  Ultimately, you are expected to pay for that privilege.
[00:42:49]  This I know, Galster continues.
[00:42:51]  Without the governor's support and protection, this disease-riddled system would have been shut down by 1982.
[00:42:56]  And again, Clinton doesn't make the system this way, but he is a guy who continues to work within a system in order to get the stuff done that he wants to get done, right?
[00:43:05]  And the fact that that system existed before and after him does not exempt him from responsibility for participating in it.
[00:43:12]  Nor exonerate, to be quite honest.
[00:43:15]  And I love the point that we're bringing up here about how easy it is to heap opprobrium on someone that you already don't care for or disagree with.
[00:43:27]  But just like just like the soul-crushing thing where someone you hate makes a really good point objectively, you also have to have that moment where even someone you might like does really just unclean, evil shit for a federal judge to say there are evil people involved.
[00:43:48]  And it's this, the issue of both like, it is important to hold Clinton's that, I mean, he didn't, no one held his feet to the point.
[00:43:56]  It would have been important for them to have done this as a result of this.
[00:43:59]  It's also important for it not to be what a lot of people tried to make it, where it's like, well, this is purely a Clinton scandal.
[00:44:04]  No, I mean, this is like an Arkansas scandal.
[00:44:07]  It's like a blood industry scandal.
[00:44:10]  This is a lot of very important.
[00:44:11]  And if you're, if you're picking out one of the threads involved in this scandal, then you're ignoring all of the other ones.
[00:44:18]  And you're like, it becomes clear, okay, well, you hate Governor Clinton, but like if a governor you didn't hate had been doing all of the same things, you wouldn't have given a shit, you know?
[00:44:28]  Like, yeah, you would have been like, you know, people like blood.
[00:44:31]  Yeah, these are systemic issues.
[00:44:33]  And we both need to blame and punish individual people responsible for them and understand how the systemic part plays into it so that we don't just put like, well, no, I like this governor.
[00:44:42]  So I'm just not going to pay attention to what's being done in the Arkansas prisons anymore, you know?
[00:44:46]  Maybe the problem is monetizing everything.
[00:44:49]  Yeah.
[00:44:50]  Maybe the problem is monetizing everything.
[00:44:52]  Like those early reports said, if you make blood donation be entirely driven by money, there's a lot of issues you have to deal with.
[00:44:59]  The other issue is like, well, then how do we get all the blood we need?
[00:45:01]  Because like, if we don't have enough, there's never enough.
[00:45:04]  How do we get the blood we need?
[00:45:06]  Yeah.
[00:45:07]  There's never an organ surplus.
[00:45:09]  Right.
[00:45:11]  And so there's a degree to which like, as much as we're critiquing parts of this, there are certain things I know that we shouldn't have been doing, like running a blood program the way they did at Cummins Prison.
[00:45:21]  But when it comes to like, how do we get enough blood?
[00:45:24]  Well, nobody's figured that out yet.
[00:45:26]  I don't know.
[00:45:28]  Nobody's figured that out except for Robert Evans, creator of Behind the Bastards with several jars of, we'll call it gently used, ventured.
[00:45:38]  Generally used, blint invented blood, maybe a little bit of lamb's blood in there.
[00:45:42]  I might have might have thinned it out with some coconut milk.

=== Gently Used Blended Blood (03:54) ===

[00:45:44]  You're good.
[00:45:45]  You're good.
[00:45:45]  Take it.
[00:45:47]  You're good.
[00:45:47]  No refunds.
[00:45:48]  Also contains X amount of ethanol.
[00:45:51]  Now, you know who else doesn't give refunds?
[00:45:53]  Who's that?
[00:45:54]  The sponsors of this podcast.
[00:45:56]  That we're hoping to keep, Robert.
[00:45:59]  Maybe they give refunds.
[00:46:00]  I don't know.
[00:46:00]  I never checked.
[00:46:06]  There's two golden rules that any man should live by.
[00:46:10]  Rule one, never mess with a country girl.
[00:46:13]  You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.
[00:46:16]  And rule two, never mess with her friends either.
[00:46:20]  We always say, trust your girlfriends.
[00:46:23]  I'm Anna Sinfield.
[00:46:25]  And in this new season of The Girlfriends.
[00:46:27]  Oh my God, this is the same man.
[00:46:29]  A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist.
[00:46:34]  I felt like I got hit by a truck.
[00:46:36]  I thought, how could this happen to me?
[00:46:38]  The cops didn't seem to care.
[00:46:40]  So they take matters into their own hands.
[00:46:43]  I said, oh, hell no.
[00:46:44]  I vowed I will be his last target.
[00:46:47]  He's going to get what he deserves.
[00:46:51]  Listen to the girlfriends.
[00:46:53]  Trust me, babe.
[00:46:54]  On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:47:03]  Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back.
[00:47:09]  I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting.
[00:47:14]  Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians.
[00:47:20]  Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leve, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name.
[00:47:29]  And this season, I've sat down with Alessia Cara, Sarah McLaughlin, John Legend, and more.
[00:47:34]  Check out my new episode with Josh Grobin.
[00:47:37]  You related to the Phantom at that point.
[00:47:40]  Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that.
[00:47:42]  That's so funny.
[00:47:44]  Sherry stay with me each night, each morning.
[00:47:52]  Say you love me.
[00:47:55]  You know I.
[00:47:56]  So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:48:04]  I'm Laurie Siegel, and on Mostly Human, I go beyond the headlines with the people building our future.
[00:48:10]  This week, an interview with one of the most influential figures in Silicon Valley, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.
[00:48:16]  I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to products we put out in the world.
[00:48:23]  From power to parenthood.
[00:48:25]  Kids, teenagers, I think they will need a lot of guardrails around AI.
[00:48:28]  This is such a powerful and such a new thing.
[00:48:31]  From addiction to acceleration.
[00:48:33]  The world we live in is a competitive world, and I don't think that's going to stop, even if you did a lot of redistribution.
[00:48:37]  You know, we have a deep desire to excel and be competitive and gain status and be useful to others.
[00:48:44]  And it's a multiplayer game.
[00:48:47]  What does the man who has extraordinary influence over our lives have to say about the weight of that responsibility?
[00:48:53]  Find out on Mostly Human.
[00:48:55]  My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI.
[00:48:58]  Listen to Mostly Human on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
[00:49:06]  What's up, everyone?
[00:49:07]  I'm Ego Modem.
[00:49:08]  My next guest, you know, from Step Brothers, Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network, it's Will Farrell.
[00:49:17]  Woo, woo, woo, woo.
[00:49:19]  My dad gave me the best advice ever.
[00:49:22]  I went and had lunch with him one day, and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot.
[00:49:27]  I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings.
[00:49:30]  I'm working my way up through and I know it's a place they come look for up and coming talent.
[00:49:34]  He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet.

=== Specious Allegations and Court (12:34) ===

[00:49:39]  Yeah.
[00:49:39]  He goes, but there's so much luck involved.
[00:49:42]  And he's like, just give it a shot.
[00:49:44]  He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit.
[00:49:52]  If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration.
[00:49:54]  It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat.
[00:50:01]  Just hang in there.
[00:50:02]  Yeah, it would not be.
[00:50:04]  Right, it wouldn't be that.
[00:50:05]  There's a lot of luck.
[00:50:06]  Listen to Thanks Dad on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:50:17]  We're back.
[00:50:18]  So a good deal of the information in this article comes from a 1998 piece published by Arkansas investigative journalist Susie Parker.
[00:50:26]  She also published an article on the Whitewater scandal for the New York Times, which was a big scandal for the Clintons while he was in office that like is incredibly boring today because political scandals have gotten so much worse.
[00:50:37]  Like it's so quaint that like, oh man, remember when people were upset about this like shady business dealings the president might be tied to?
[00:50:46]  Good lord.
[00:50:48]  Guys, this dude may have made a couple hundred thousand dollars illegally.
[00:50:54]  So let's rebuild those guillotines.
[00:50:56]  Anyway, the president said he's a king.
[00:50:59]  It's just things are a lot worse.
[00:51:00]  I'm not saying Whitewater was okay.
[00:51:02]  I'm just saying like things are so much worse now.
[00:51:05]  Susie has worked for a number of publications and she has a particular fixation on Arkansas politics and the Clintons.
[00:51:11]  Today, she runs a local independent publication called The Reckoning, and she is quite conservative, right?
[00:51:15]  She is a right-wing, at least simply more sympathetic to that.
[00:51:20]  I think she does portray Clinton's involvement as like more direct and puppet mastery than it was.
[00:51:25]  I think this was something Clinton acceded to, both because he gained some benefit from like you know, giving some of these positions to people close to him and because not messing with this allowed him to do it, was like a politics, it was a trade for him, right?
[00:51:39]  Um, whereas like the other people running the board of corrections and running these pro there were these were the people who were like directly setting up the system like this.
[00:51:47]  Um, again, I think Clinton knew quite a bit of how bad this was and made some choices here, um, but he's not the puppet master, right?
[00:51:56]  Now, one of the issues uh here comes that alongside some strong connections, which again don't imply that Clinton operated this program, but do inclay that he was he deserves quite a lot of blame.
[00:52:07]  Or there's also at least willfully ignorant.
[00:52:10]  Yes, there's also some specious allegations.
[00:52:12]  For example, Goulster, that former doctor, claims that Vince Foster was hired to squash the state investigation.
[00:52:19]  Now, this was true, and Vince Foster is a very close Clinton associate.
[00:52:23]  If this is true, that investigation happened and, in fact, described some of what was going on as bribery.
[00:52:29]  And then there's an independent review ordered by the prison board, which had Clinton allies on it.
[00:52:33]  So, I don't know, I don't know how much I believe that this is like a big deal, but the reason this is seen as a smoking gun, right, by some people is that in July of 1993, after Governor Clinton became President Clinton, Vince Foster shot himself to death in Washington, D.C. Foster had discussed his depression with his sister over some time, and he was at that moment in a lot of trouble over a totally different controversy with the White House travel office.
[00:52:58]  And there's no evidence of anything here other than that Vince was a serial political operator who was involved in some shady shit and got disgraced and who killed himself because he didn't want to live with the after effects, right?
[00:53:11]  And, you know, this that also the shit he was in, to the extent that it was shady, is very common among people who are Arkansas politicos, right?
[00:53:19]  But Vince's death has become a cornerstone of some of the more unhinged parts of the anti-Clinton movement.
[00:53:24]  You'll hear allegations that like he was either murdered by the Clintons or that he killed himself because of the blood scandal, right?
[00:53:31]  The Clintons had him shot in order to cover this blood scandal up.
[00:53:34]  And again, it wasn't covered up.
[00:53:36]  There's a documentary on it.
[00:53:38]  People didn't care enough, but it wasn't, you know, it got out.
[00:53:42]  And the reality is that the blood scandal didn't have an impact on Bill and Hillary's lives or political careers, not in a real massive way.
[00:53:50]  And I can, in fact, believe that people as connected as they are, you know, have contacts in the entertainment industry, but I also just don't see the evidence that this destroyed them or that this wasn't that dangerous to them.
[00:54:03]  In fact, in 1992, Peter Longstaff, who tested positive for HIV back in 1995 after receiving blood from U.S. donors, tested positive for hepatitis C.
[00:54:14]  And this was the same year that Clinton ran for presidential election.
[00:54:17]  The Arkansas Times writes, His former chief of staff, Betsy Wright, sent a memo titled Prison Positives.
[00:54:24]  That memo mentioned four points, including education into prison by Bill Clinton.
[00:54:28]  But the first point Wright listed was, run the cheapest system in the country.
[00:54:32]  And so you kind of get even in 92, you know, the thing that like the scandal here is not on their front burner.
[00:54:40]  Their front burner, still for him in 92, after it's very clear how bad a lot of this is, was like, no, the prison system was cheap.
[00:54:47]  Let's throw that in a bullet point list.
[00:54:49]  You know, you know, it's a thing to run on, right?
[00:54:53]  Keeping costs down.
[00:54:55]  Keeping costs down.
[00:54:56]  It's the idea.
[00:54:58]  Yeah, fairly normal evil, fairly normal politics evil, as opposed to like incredibly shady conspiracy evil.
[00:55:08]  That's my opinion on the matter.
[00:55:09]  Well, I hear you there too, because there's this devilishly tempting draw, right?
[00:55:17]  To find a political force you disagree with or you already don't care for and then assign them super villainous agency where the, you know, the result is without being too controversial, the result is you ultimately have to ask yourself, is there any such thing as a completely clean POTUS, right?
[00:55:44]  And what does it need to take to play that game?
[00:55:47]  Yeah.
[00:55:47]  Yeah.
[00:55:48]  And well, and also just like perhaps if we keep if the focus of all of these problems is like, ah, this is, I could use this huge systemic issue that a lot of people deserve to go down for to attack this one guy.
[00:56:02]  That's all I'm really interested in.
[00:56:04]  I'm not interested in better treatment for prisoners.
[00:56:06]  I'm not interested in a safer blood treatment system.
[00:56:08]  Right.
[00:56:09]  And likewise, if you're, you know, and to the same extent that like Bill's only interest in what happened in the prison system during his time was I need a bullet point of things that I can run on.
[00:56:20]  Right.
[00:56:20]  And like, yeah, I put some educational programs in.
[00:56:23]  System was the cheapest, you know, that it's ever been.
[00:56:26]  Bada bing, bada boom.
[00:56:27]  I'm done thinking about the prisons and the state I run, you know?
[00:56:30]  Like all of these are parts of the why all of this kind of shit will keep happening.
[00:56:36]  Yes.
[00:56:36]  And that is, I think, one of our look, I know it's your show, but I think that's one of the key takeaways is it is tempting, again, to look at the headline, to put a face on a problem, right?
[00:56:50]  Now I'm mad at insert individual here.
[00:56:53]  The real problems are systemic and have always been and shall always be slow.
[00:56:59]  Be so.
[00:57:02]  And with that, I got to tell you, it's a question that's been on my mind for both of these episodes.
[00:57:09]  Robert, do you want to do you want to like buy some blood?
[00:57:13]  Yes.
[00:57:13]  Oh my God.
[00:57:14]  Yes.
[00:57:15]  Do you, I gotta, I want to make sure, will I have any idea where the blood comes from or what is in it?
[00:57:21]  Even better, bro, you're not buying it.
[00:57:24]  We do a subscription service.
[00:57:25]  Oh, shit.
[00:57:27]  Awesome.
[00:57:28]  You know, you're, well, we say leasing.
[00:57:30]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:57:30]  I'll lease the blood.
[00:57:31]  I'll give some back.
[00:57:33]  Yeah.
[00:57:33]  Perfect.
[00:57:34]  Yeah.
[00:57:34]  You know, we got to have blood leasing has to be on the organ lease.
[00:57:39]  I mean, we're all going to be doing our best for the next several decades to like recreate some of like the silliest movies from the 1990s.
[00:57:48]  I think Repo Man's next.
[00:57:50]  Oh, my gosh.
[00:57:51]  I'm so excited.
[00:57:53]  You have to come back on stuff they want you, or you've never been on that one.
[00:57:57]  Come back on ridiculous history while we can still call it history.
[00:58:03]  Right.
[00:58:04]  Yeah.
[00:58:05]  I feel like the rent of blood is just like a sequel to Jordan Peele's Get Out.
[00:58:11]  Yeah.
[00:58:13]  Oh, yeah.
[00:58:13]  Jordan got us again.
[00:58:15]  Yeah.
[00:58:16]  Oh, my gosh.
[00:58:17]  Anyway, rent some blood.
[00:58:20]  Have fun.
[00:58:21]  I don't know why I ended on that, Mark.
[00:58:24]  I mean, you kind of did a plug.
[00:58:26]  Yeah, but you can do another one.
[00:58:29]  Oh, sure.
[00:58:30]  Other than rent of blood, which is clearly our main focus for both of these episodes, please check out stuff they don't want you to know, which applies critical thinking to allegations of conspiracy.
[00:58:43]  Please check out Ridiculous History, where you can hear our own friend Robert Evans.
[00:58:48]  Robert, pause, Evans.
[00:58:50]  You like that?
[00:58:50]  Just check it.
[00:58:52]  Social Security number beep on the on the show a couple of times.
[00:59:00]  Most importantly, most importantly, I think you guys plug something.
[00:59:05]  I'm just throwing the ball over the court here.
[00:59:09]  Just doing like a halftime, go for it.
[00:59:11]  You know what I mean?
[00:59:12]  Yeah.
[00:59:12]  Half court.
[00:59:13]  Find the documentary Factor Eight so I can watch it.
[00:59:16]  That's what I'm going to plug.
[00:59:17]  Somebody's got to have it out there.
[00:59:19]  Shout out to Kelly Duda, by the way, for standing tall in Italian court.
[00:59:24]  That's a true story.
[00:59:25]  Good work.
[00:59:26]  Anyway, that's the episode.
[00:59:33]  Behind the Bastards is a production of CoolZone Media.
[00:59:36]  For more from CoolZone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:59:45]  Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube.
[00:59:48]  New episodes every Wednesday and Friday.
[00:59:51]  Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at behind the bastards.
[00:59:58]  When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands.
[01:00:06]  I vowed I will be his last target.
[01:00:09]  He is not going to get away with this.
[01:00:11]  He's going to get what he deserves.
[01:00:13]  We always say that, trust your girlfriends.
[01:00:17]  Listen to the girlfriends.
[01:00:19]  Trust me, babe.
[01:00:20]  On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:00:30]  I'm Laurie Siegel, and this is Mostly Human, a tech podcast through a human lens.
[01:00:34]  This week, an interview with OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.
[01:00:38]  I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to the products we put out in the world.
[01:00:45]  An in-depth conversation with a man who's shaping our future.
[01:00:48]  My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI.
[01:00:51]  Listen to Mostly Human on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
[01:01:00]  Hey, it's Nora Jones, and my podcast, Playing Along, is back with more of my favorite musicians.
[01:01:05]  Check out my newest episode with Josh Grobin.
[01:01:08]  You related to the Phantom at that point.
[01:01:11]  Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that.
[01:01:13]  That's so funny.
[01:01:15]  Share each day with me each night, each morning.
[01:01:22]  Listen to Nora Jones' Playing Along on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:01:30]  What's up, everyone?
[01:01:31]  I'm Ago Mode.
[01:01:32]  My next guest, it's Will Farrell.
[01:01:37]  My dad gave me the best advice ever.
[01:01:40]  He goes, just give it a shot.
[01:01:41]  But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit.
[01:01:48]  If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration.
[01:01:50]  It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat just hanging in there.
[01:01:58]  Yeah, it would not be.
[01:02:00]  Right, it wouldn't be that.
[01:02:01]  There's a lot of life.
[01:02:02]  Listen to Thanks Dad on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:02:09]  This is an iHeart podcast.
[01:02:12]  Guaranteed human.