Behind the Bastards - Part One: The Parenting Gurus of Nazi Germany
Aired: 2024-05-07
Duration: 01:07:53


=== Nazi Sex Obsession and Vulnerability (04:14) ===

[00:00:01]  Cool zone media.
[00:00:08]  I shit.
[00:00:09]  That was not a good way to open it.
[00:00:11]  I was going to try.
[00:00:12]  Well, I had a couple of bad openings started for this, most of which had to do with pedophilia.
[00:00:19]  Can we do another one of them?
[00:00:20]  No.
[00:00:20]  Yeah, can we just say that you've had better openings?
[00:00:26]  I could have just, what if I'd committed to that, Sophie, and just done the whole opening bit from Led Zeppelin's The Immigrant song?
[00:00:33]  You could have.
[00:00:34]  Okay.
[00:00:34]  That would have been pretty good.
[00:00:35]  That would have been pretty good.
[00:00:36]  I didn't do that.
[00:00:37]  I didn't do that.
[00:00:37]  I chickened out halfway through.
[00:00:39]  It was nothing.
[00:00:40]  Margaret.
[00:00:41]  Yep.
[00:00:42]  Killjoy.
[00:00:43]  Welcome to the show.
[00:00:44]  Behind the bastards.
[00:00:45]  And when you think of bastards, right?
[00:00:47]  When you think of human evil, naturally, you're going to think of Germany.
[00:00:52]  And look, that's not entirely fair to the Germans today, but at the same time, you know, when you go through that kind of World War II shit, it's just going to be on everybody's mind.
[00:01:09]  And as a result, there's like a huge amount of history, a huge amount of like historiography that's kind of based around variations of the question, why do the Germans be like that, though?
[00:01:20]  Right.
[00:01:20]  Can I tell you my story about mistaking a German in a bad way in the middle of the night?
[00:01:26]  Oh, yeah, please.
[00:01:26]  Oh, yes.
[00:01:28]  I was crossing from the Czech Republic into Germany before Czech Republic was part of the Schengen area.
[00:01:34]  And so there was a border control.
[00:01:36]  It was the middle of the night, and I'm on this bus and I wake up to, you know, it's this super cheap.
[00:01:41]  It's this like 10 Euro bus or whatever.
[00:01:43]  Yeah.
[00:01:44]  And I wake up to a German soldier going, Guten dog.
[00:01:48]  And I just, I wake up and my brain goes, oh, fuck a Nazi.
[00:01:52]  Yeah.
[00:01:53]  That's exactly.
[00:01:54]  That's exactly how Poland woke up one day.
[00:01:57]  Yeah.
[00:01:57]  Just a big guten dog in their ear.
[00:02:01]  So he pulled me and the other like long-haired boy off the bus and searched us very carefully.
[00:02:06]  Yeah.
[00:02:07]  Anyway.
[00:02:07]  Yeah.
[00:02:08]  Yeah.
[00:02:08]  So that's Germany in my mind.
[00:02:11]  Look, this is actually getting to the point, which is that I think there's kind of a fundamental flaw in this idea of like trying to be like, what is it about the Germans that made fascism happen there, right?
[00:02:23]  That made that be the country that like really did that in the biggest way.
[00:02:27]  And I think that's actually kind of a, it's, it's a potentially dangerous thing to obsess in, right?
[00:02:32]  Yeah, because it's nationalism.
[00:02:34]  Because it's, because like bunch of, like, yeah, exactly, because it didn't just happen there because they're not the only people vulnerable and kind of obsessing too much on like, what is it about German-ness that ensured the Nazis were able to take and hold power can kind of blind you to the vulnerabilities we all face.
[00:02:50]  But at the same time, it is worth acknowledging there are aspects of German culture that ensured that Nazism was the specific kind of fascism that came to power in that country.
[00:03:01]  And that altered its character, right?
[00:03:03]  There are specific things about Germany that made it more vulnerable to what the Nazis were going to do.
[00:03:10]  So it would also be kind of a mistake to ignore what was going on in German culture in the years leading up to the war.
[00:03:16]  And when, you know, historians, some of whom I think are responsible in this and some of whom are maybe not, try to do this, they inevitably wind up focusing on two areas primarily.
[00:03:27]  One of them is child rearing, how we're like German parents raising children in the pre-World War II era and like the pre-Wimar and the German imperial era.
[00:03:37]  And then what was sexual education like, right?
[00:03:40]  And I think child rearing, this is a sensible thing to get into.
[00:03:44]  I think when you get into the sex stuff, this is where a lot of like the really bad historiography gets in because there tends to be this kind of obsession with ideas about the Nazis and sex that are not necessarily accurate.
[00:03:55]  And kind of as a result, in the post-war period, particularly in the period that starts like 10 or 15 years after the war ends, a lot of folks on like the left are going to make some really hideous mistakes when they, it is as part of kind of an attempt to render Germany less vulnerable to fascism.

=== Bad Historiography on Nazis and Sex (02:54) ===

[00:04:16]  And they're, they're both some of the most horrifying things we will ever talk about on this show.
[00:04:21]  This is kind of what we're building towards.
[00:04:22]  It's going to take us a few episodes.
[00:04:25]  It's also a weird story, right?
[00:04:28]  And it's, this is one of those things.
[00:04:29]  I don't know if our listeners like to wait until a series is finished.
[00:04:32]  This is not entirely that kind of series.
[00:04:35]  We're going to be talking about a very different set of stories this week and next week, but you kind of have to hear them to understand what comes next too, because we're going to be talking a lot about the attitudes in German academia and society about like how kids should be raised.
[00:04:52]  And yeah, anyway, so it does mean this week is our fun week.
[00:04:57]  Yeah.
[00:04:59]  This is an iHeart podcast.
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=== Pseudo-Scientific Child Development Experts (14:58) ===

[00:07:11]  Are you ready to get into today's bastard?
[00:07:15]  Is it Nazi sex?
[00:07:17]  No, it's post-note.
[00:07:19]  No, no, this is pre-Nazi childrearing crimes.
[00:07:23]  And as a result, I mean, Nazi child crime.
[00:07:26]  Some of it is depressing because this is child abuse, but it's also pseudoscience.
[00:07:31]  Oh, okay.
[00:07:32]  I do like pseudoscience.
[00:07:33]  So you get some of that fun like, oh, people in the 1800s, you believed wacky things about how to raise children.
[00:07:41]  That's what we're talking about this week is like pseudoscience.
[00:07:44]  Today is like the kind of big pseudo-scientific child development expert in the pre-Nazi era.
[00:07:51]  And then Thursday is the momfluencer of Nazism.
[00:07:56]  So we're going to have, this is the fun week.
[00:07:59]  Next week is all pedophiles.
[00:08:01]  So just enjoy it.
[00:08:05]  What I'm saying is enjoy it while it lasts.
[00:08:08]  Today's guy is even pretty well-meaning.
[00:08:10]  He's a bastard because of like where this stuff takes him, but I don't think he was actually out to hurt kids.
[00:08:17]  He just made a lot of horrible mistakes.
[00:08:19]  And his name was Daniel Gottlob Moritz Schreber.
[00:08:24]  Okay.
[00:08:24]  Quite a name.
[00:08:25]  Quite a name.
[00:08:26]  Extremely German name.
[00:08:27]  That's a Gutentog in your ear as you're woken up on the bus ass name.
[00:08:31]  Is that a hyphen or has he got two middle names?
[00:08:34]  No, no, two middle names.
[00:08:35]  Two middle names.
[00:08:36]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:08:37]  You know, those kids are always trouble.
[00:08:39]  So I found very little about his childhood, but it does seem to be accurate to say that he suffered from a form of mental illness that was not diagnosed at the time.
[00:08:49]  There were notes found long after his death, in fact, after World War II at a hospital in Dresden that claimed Schreber had suffered during his life from, quote, obsessional ideas with murderous impulses.
[00:09:02]  Now, that is a description of this guy's mind state written by a member of his family who was treating his son, who spoilers, suffered from paranoid schizophrenia.
[00:09:11]  This is very relevant later, right?
[00:09:13]  Okay.
[00:09:13]  So this is this discussion that like, well, Schreber had obsessional ideas with murderous impulses.
[00:09:18]  This is not a diagnosis.
[00:09:20]  This is family lore that was passed down, right?
[00:09:23]  Okay.
[00:09:24]  That said, so he had intrusive thoughts a little worse than most people.
[00:09:27]  Yes.
[00:09:28]  Maybe a lot worse, but that is exactly what I thought.
[00:09:31]  Because I have people in my life with OCD that manifest with intrusive thoughts.
[00:09:36]  And that's what I thought of when I read that description of Schraber, right?
[00:09:40]  Yeah.
[00:09:41]  And whatever was going on, whatever he was dealing with, it was intense enough that, again, it got passed down in family lore like 100 or like 50 years after his death.
[00:09:51]  So you have to assume significant, but also he was a very successful functional person within his society.
[00:09:58]  So it did not stop him from functioning in society.
[00:10:01]  Right.
[00:10:02]  He did struggle with depression throughout his life, which ended in 1861.
[00:10:06]  Because he didn't get to murder people.
[00:10:08]  He didn't get to murder people.
[00:10:09]  I'm assuming.
[00:10:10]  I don't know anything about maybe he did murder people, but you know, probably he wouldn't have been depressed if he'd been able to act.
[00:10:15]  Never mind.
[00:10:15]  Don't listen to me.
[00:10:16]  You probably shouldn't say that on the show.
[00:10:18]  Nope.
[00:10:19]  I have no idea what he's going to do.
[00:10:20]  It's going to be bad.
[00:10:21]  So never mind.
[00:10:22]  Magpie, this is not your show.
[00:10:24]  Cool times.
[00:10:25]  I know.
[00:10:25]  I got confused for a minute.
[00:10:26]  I was like, yeah.
[00:10:29]  No, so all of this is relevant because Daniel Schraber is going to have more of an impact on German child rearing than pretty much anyone else in the late 19th and early 20th century.
[00:10:38]  Schreber got his MD and taught at the University of Leipzig.
[00:10:42]  He is often referred to as a self-proclaimed child psychiatrist.
[00:10:46]  And normally when you're like, someone is a self-proclaimed medical field, it's because they're a quack or a con man.
[00:10:53]  In this case, it's just because child psychology was new at the time, right?
[00:10:57]  Like if you were a child psychologist, you had declared yourself that because it wasn't a thing people became.
[00:11:02]  Because you're the first guy.
[00:11:03]  The first very early, you know?
[00:11:06]  He's doing this in the mid-1800s.
[00:11:09]  The idea that like prior to the period.
[00:11:11]  Yeah, I was imagining like 1910.
[00:11:13]  Okay.
[00:11:13]  No, no, this guy is in like this guy dies right at the start of the U.S. Civil War.
[00:11:18]  And prior to the period where he was an active academic, if kids misbehaved or were disturbed, you just handed them a cigarette and sent them off to the poison mines, right?
[00:11:27]  Like there was not any sort of thought that their mental health might matter.
[00:11:31]  Right.
[00:11:32]  Yeah.
[00:11:33]  So Schraber was fascinated with children's health.
[00:11:36]  And particularly, he was really interested with how urbanization and the rapid changes due to modern life had impacted child development.
[00:11:45]  Like social media and stuff.
[00:11:47]  Yes, like social media.
[00:11:48]  He was a real Twitter head.
[00:11:49]  No, he's in his case.
[00:11:51]  He's worried about like the social media of his day, which is like roads and the mail and the fact that there are tall buildings around to be friends.
[00:11:58]  Yeah.
[00:11:59]  He's got these are like real issues, right?
[00:12:01]  That he's he's noticing that like this is actually changing the way in which people are developing.
[00:12:06]  His books were popular all across the Western world.
[00:12:09]  He had a lot of readers in the U.S., but he was particularly popular in Germany.
[00:12:13]  You might think of him as like Dr. Spock if you're old enough to remember doctors, not the from Star Trek, but like the child development doctor who was kind of huge, I think, in the 80s and 90s.
[00:12:24]  I think my parents had a Dr. Spock book or two around.
[00:12:27]  Yeah, and I never was able to disambiguate that from Spock from Star Trek.
[00:12:32]  So I never really changed your name.
[00:12:33]  I just understood what was happening.
[00:12:34]  I didn't understand how there could be more than one person named Spock.
[00:12:37]  Because I assume Dr. Spock from Star Trek would have been a fantastic parenting advice giver, you know?
[00:12:42]  Oh, absolutely.
[00:12:43]  It seemed like he had his shit together.
[00:12:44]  Yeah.
[00:12:45]  A little bit of emotionally detached kid would come out of it.
[00:12:47]  But, you know, that's some, that's fine.
[00:12:50]  You know what, Margaret?
[00:12:51]  That is where the story ends.
[00:12:52]  But yeah, you might think of Schriber, his impact, like his kind of influence in Germany in the mid-1800s.
[00:12:58]  And this is really when there's a bunch of fighting principalities, right?
[00:13:02]  You've got like Russia and Bavaria kind of at each other's throats for part of this guy's life.
[00:13:06]  So they're not even German yet.
[00:13:08]  But you might compare him to, if Dr. Spock is too old, whatever YouTube mom fluencer is currently at the height of her influence and hasn't yet been arrested for accidentally murdering her kids.
[00:13:21]  I wanted to like bring that up and then bring up like a single case of a social media mom influencer committing a terrible crime.
[00:13:29]  But when I googled mom fluencer guilty of abuse, I was presented with so many different options that I had to deal.
[00:13:35]  I had like decision paralysis.
[00:13:37]  How do I finish this bit?
[00:13:38]  Like this, this happens so often.
[00:13:41]  All of these people are fucking child abusers.
[00:13:44]  Oh, God.
[00:13:45]  I settled eventually on Ruby Frank, a mom fluencer with two and a half million subscribers on YouTube and Instagram who pled guilty to child abuse in December of 2023.
[00:13:55]  And this, I settled on Ruby Frank because she's, she's relevant to our German discussion for a few reasons, including the fact that prosecutors accused her and her husband of turning their home into a concentration camp-like environment to control their children and use them to feed the ever-hungry YouTube parenting content mill.
[00:14:12]  They made this to feed so well into the theme of the episode, but alas, Ruby ensured it did.
[00:14:24]  So she made videos and she eventually separates from her husband.
[00:14:28]  He's filing for a divorce.
[00:14:29]  I think he's probably, it seems like he's less involved in this, but I'm not certain that he's not.
[00:14:34]  Or he's just bitter because he didn't get the money for it.
[00:14:36]  He didn't get as much of that sweet YouTube money.
[00:14:39]  They made videos.
[00:14:40]  Like one example of their content is a video blog titled Eight Passengers, which focused on punishments for kids.
[00:14:47]  One example punishment given was they banned their oldest son from his bedroom for seven months for playing a prank on his brother.
[00:14:54]  Again, if you're doing anything to a kid for like seven months, that's too long for a punishment.
[00:14:59]  That's just abuse at that point.
[00:15:01]  That's an insane length of time for a punishment.
[00:15:05]  In one video, Ruby brags about refusing to bring lunch to her kindergartner who'd forgotten it at home.
[00:15:11]  And again, she's a kindergartner.
[00:15:14]  Like, what kind of shit are we supposed to have together?
[00:15:17]  In another video, she threatened to behead a doll to punish her daughter, which, like, if you are, if you are taking child-rearing tips from ISIS, you know, you've gone awry.
[00:15:29]  I think that the parent is the one who needs the punishment.
[00:15:32]  Yes.
[00:15:33]  Yes.
[00:15:34]  It's amazing.
[00:15:35]  Again, this was all on video.
[00:15:36]  So it's perhaps not surprising that like eventually prosecutors realized there was something going on here.
[00:15:44]  I'm going to read a quote from NPR about what was happening in the Frank household that's going to be surprisingly relevant to some of the things that come next.
[00:15:51]  Frank also admitted to kicking her son while wearing boots, holding his head underwater, and smothering his mouth and nose with her hands, according to the plea agreement.
[00:15:59]  He was also told that everything that was being done to him were acts of love, the agreement states.
[00:16:04]  Jesus.
[00:16:05]  So this is, you know, what we're talking about with Miss Frank, she is.
[00:16:10]  You will, it is not uncommon to find people advocating today for this kind of like tough love practice towards raising children.
[00:16:17]  There's a very popular book among the Christian right called To Train Up a Child.
[00:16:21]  And the basis of it is you should, when children are infants, do stuff like lay them down on a mat.
[00:16:28]  And if they like wiggle to such a point that any part of their body is off of it, you like whip them, basically.
[00:16:33]  You like, you like beat them.
[00:16:35]  There's a lot of discussion of like, you know, what kind of things you should hit children with and when.
[00:16:39]  But the idea is that any tiny act of what it terms as like, you know, misbehavior or disobedience, right?
[00:16:47]  Which we would just call, well, kids aren't fully in control of themselves or their bodies because they're developing still, you know?
[00:16:54]  That that's an act of like willfulness against not just the parent, but against God, right?
[00:16:59]  And that attitude, again, which is still super with us, is very much in the intellectual chain of custody that it doesn't, I wouldn't say it starts with Dr. Schreber.
[00:17:10]  It probably starts much earlier than that.
[00:17:12]  I'm sure parents have been doing this for forever in various ways, but the kind of the intellectualizing of that impulse that bad parents have always had to like, if my kid does anything that I don't want them doing in the moment, I need to respond with pain, right?
[00:17:27]  Schreber is one of the first people to kind of try and medicalize that attitude, right?
[00:17:35]  And again, he's a lot less hateful about it.
[00:17:38]  I don't think he's coming from a place of wanting to hurt kids.
[00:17:40]  I think he's coming from a place of like, he kind of has obsessional OCD.
[00:17:45]  And so he obsesses on like little movements from kids and it bothers him.
[00:17:50]  And so he develops all this kind of like scientific theory around how you should treat the small ways children move that are again, in reality, due to the fact that they're not fully in control of their bodies.
[00:18:02]  So like baby muscle phrenology.
[00:18:05]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:18:07]  That's that's kind of what's going on here.
[00:18:10]  And I want to read a passage from a German author named J. Elk Ertl about kind of what Dr. Schreber focused his intellectual efforts on in regards to child rearing.
[00:18:21]  Quote, Schreber aimed at creating obedient children from the day the baby is born.
[00:18:25]  Harsh discipline started with cold baths.
[00:18:28]  The child's comfort and self-esteem were never considerations.
[00:18:30]  And stroking, cuddling, and kissing were forbidden.
[00:18:33]  As a result, generations of Germans went without direct loving contact with their parents.
[00:18:38]  Now, Ertl, again, this is a German writer writing about her attitude towards Schreber's impact on Germany.
[00:18:46]  It's not fully his fault.
[00:18:48]  There's a lot of other child development experts and intellectual experts who are a part of this like lack of loving contact between German babies and their parents.
[00:18:58]  But it's not uncommon to find people with Ertl's attitude that Schreber basically paves the way for Nazism.
[00:19:04]  He has been described as the spiritual precursor of Nazism.
[00:19:08]  And again, it's not totally fair to say that, but there is no denying that he influenced the cultural environment in which Nazism grew.
[00:19:17]  As soon as you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, like, no, okay, a whole, like, you know, four generations of kids who weren't allowed to talk, like, touch their parents.
[00:19:25]  Yeah, no, I could see how that could lead to some monstrosity.
[00:19:29]  The more accurate thing to say would be that, like.
[00:19:32]  Schreber popularized the kind of intellectual argument for abusing your children in this way.
[00:19:39]  And that provided a lot of space for other intellectuals in the decades to come to make similar arguments and extensions of his arguments.
[00:19:47]  And in that case, put them into the political sphere or whatever.
[00:19:50]  Yes.
[00:19:50]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:19:51]  And that is part of what's going on in Germany.
[00:19:53]  Yeah.
[00:19:54]  Now, one thing that really, again, fucks me up about this is that unlike basically everyone else we're going to talk about, Schreber's teachings, while they end in a bad place, they start from a pretty good place, which is he's recognizing we have cities now.
[00:20:07]  Most kids are growing up in cities now, and kids who grow up in cities don't exert themselves outdoors as much as children probably have throughout most of history.
[00:20:16]  And we need to make accounting for that in how we raise them, right?
[00:20:20]  That they're not getting the kind of outdoor exposure that they evolved to get, right?
[00:20:26]  That's not wrong.
[00:20:28]  Yeah.
[00:20:29]  Like that is a that is like an a thing about urban life that you do need to take into account when raising children is that like if you're not careful, they will not get enough time to move their bodies around, right?
[00:20:41]  That's that's like a problem with modern life.
[00:20:43]  Yeah, so it's like the like modern parenting thing where like, or the generation about a half generation older than me is like, what the hell?
[00:20:51]  Just kick your kids out of the house and make them run around and play outside.
[00:20:53]  Kids these days don't play outside.
[00:20:55]  Yes, yes, exactly.
[00:20:57]  He is, he is one of the first people kind of start.
[00:20:59]  And he's starting on the reasonable end of that.
[00:21:01]  Where it gets unreasonable is that he kind of comes to the conclusion that the issue of kids having all this energy should be remedied not with them running around outside, but with systematic remedial exercise.
[00:21:12]  Now, that sounds on the surface like, oh, maybe he's like suggesting a PE program, right?
[00:21:18]  Which I'm sure you and I have both had our issues with different physical education programs.
[00:21:23]  Is he putting them in the minds?
[00:21:25]  Yeah.
[00:21:26]  No, it's worse than that.
[00:21:27]  The minds would have been better than this.
[00:21:30]  So the term remedial is key here.
[00:21:32]  Schreber didn't just believe kids needed exercise to get rid of excess energy or to stay healthy.
[00:21:37]  He felt that they should be subjected to specific exercises repetitively to stop them from engaging in behaviors like slouching and masturbation.
[00:21:46]  Now, again, some of what he's doing is reasonable.
[00:21:49]  He believes that you can sharpen a child's eyes by periodically forcing them to estimate the sizes of objects at varying distances, right?
[00:21:57]  How big do you think that is?
[00:21:58]  How far do you think that is?
[00:21:59]  That doesn't actually sharpen your eyes, but that is good exercise for a kid that will help them, you know, that like if you do that with your child from a young age, it will kind of help them focus on things in the world.

=== Deforming Backbones with Cannons (03:54) ===

[00:22:09]  That's not a useless thing to do with them.
[00:22:11]  They can become scouts in the army at that point.
[00:22:13]  Right.
[00:22:13]  Right, right.
[00:22:15]  How many troops are there?
[00:22:16]  How far away?
[00:22:17]  What's the composition?
[00:22:18]  Yeah.
[00:22:19]  So some of it's fine, but he's also obsessed with posture.
[00:22:22]  He writes in his very popular 1855 book, quote, one must see to it that children always sit straight and even-sided on both buttocks at once, leaning neither to the right or left side.
[00:22:32]  As soon as they start to lean back or bend their backs, the time has come to exchange, at least for a few minutes, the seated position for the absolutely still, supine one.
[00:22:41]  If this is not done, the backbones will be deformed.
[00:22:44]  Half-resting and lying or wallowing positions should not be allowed.
[00:22:48]  If children are awake, they should be alert and hold themselves in straight, active positions and be busy.
[00:22:53]  In general, each thing which could lead towards laziness and softness, for example, the sofa in the children's room, should be kept away from their circle of activity.
[00:23:02]  So both Sophie and I sat up straight while telling that.
[00:23:07]  I'm willing to bet most of the listeners have adjusted their posture while listening to you say that.
[00:23:11]  Yeah.
[00:23:12]  Even though we know it's a bad person saying it.
[00:23:15]  Yes.
[00:23:16]  And he has, he is, he's so, I think we all had this version of the adult in our lives who was like, straighten up, straighten up, your posture's bad, right?
[00:23:22]  Maybe more than one.
[00:23:23]  Schreber, he isn't just doing that when kids are awake.
[00:23:26]  He thinks that they're like sleeping too lazily.
[00:23:29]  They should only be allowed to sleep in a straight position, flat on their backs, or else this laxity will spawn moral lapses and render them unfit for the life of discipline that German society demanded.
[00:23:41]  Even said to like sleep with their arms crossed like vampires.
[00:23:44]  Yeah, they do.
[00:23:45]  They kind of do.
[00:23:46]  Even infants have to lay prone and like straight.
[00:23:49]  Otherwise, it's going to like start them on the road to sin.
[00:23:52]  Like newborn, you have to like police how your newborn baby lies down, or they're not going to grow up German enough to conquer France.
[00:24:02]  Just teach him not to invade Russia.
[00:24:04]  It would have worked out.
[00:24:05]  Yeah.
[00:24:06]  No, I mean, we're so far ahead of that.
[00:24:08]  Like we're trying to get kids ready for the idea of breech-loading cannons.
[00:24:12]  And by God, he does.
[00:24:13]  All right.
[00:24:14]  Speaking of breech-loading cannons, you know who else loads their new Kruppstahl cannons from The Breach, Margaret?
[00:24:21]  The products and services that support the show, which is the arms industry.
[00:24:26]  Yeah, the arms industry, specifically in 1870 Europe.
[00:24:31]  That is the primary sponsor of our show.
[00:24:34]  Margaret, have you ever heard of the Mitre Lieu?
[00:24:37]  I have not.
[00:24:38]  It's an early French machine gun, and it's not good at doing what we use machine guns for today, which is sweeping broad arcs of fire in order to contain areas, but it's really good at shooting one guy a bunch of times.
[00:24:51]  So you know, if you need a Mitre Lieu in your life, they don't legally count as machine guns for reasons that are complicated to explain, but very much true.
[00:25:01]  Anyway.
[00:25:02]  And catling guns, not technically.
[00:25:03]  That's basically why.
[00:25:04]  Yeah.
[00:25:06]  It's like crank operated.
[00:25:08]  Yeah.
[00:25:09]  The ATF.
[00:25:10]  The ATF loop.
[00:25:14]  Buy a Mitralieu.
[00:25:15]  Pick up.
[00:25:15]  It worked really well in World War I.
[00:25:18]  Well, not World War I so much.
[00:25:19]  It worked.
[00:25:20]  Oh, no.
[00:25:20]  I'm just thinking of my knowledge of the history of machine guns is that they were used colonially by the Western forces.
[00:25:26]  But then the first time that they were used against other white people was in World War I, and that's when everyone realized how fucking what nightmare they had created.
[00:25:34]  Yeah, that's when people really fucked it up.
[00:25:36]  The Mitralieu is a little more complicated.
[00:25:37]  The French had it, and it was like actually pretty effective in a couple of battles, but they never actually deployed it right.
[00:25:43]  They thought of it more as a piece of artillery rather than support for the infantry.
[00:25:47]  So anyway, they lost that war pretty badly.
[00:25:49]  But you don't have to.
[00:25:52]  You can use your crank-operated machine gun for what God wants you to use it for.
[00:25:58]  Just cranking.
[00:25:59]  Never mind.
[00:26:01]  Our hero of today wouldn't want you to.

=== Nightmares of Machine Gun Battles (02:04) ===

[00:26:03]  No, he sure wouldn't.
[00:26:07]  If you are a founder or a freelancer or the friend who always says, hey, you know what?
[00:26:12]  What if I started that?
[00:26:13]  This is for you.
[00:26:14]  I'm telling you, I had nothing to my name.
[00:26:16]  I didn't know a single person in New York.
[00:26:18]  And somehow I'm dressed by Oscar DeLorenta walking down that red carpet.
[00:26:22]  This month, we sit down with entrepreneurs and creators who actually did it, who turned this scary leab into a business, a paycheck, and a life they are proud of.
[00:26:31]  Direct center of our happiness or our regrets is whether or not we're taking action on the things that matter to us.
[00:26:38]  They're not selfish.
[00:26:39]  They're so important.
[00:26:40]  They actually lead to our greatest contributions because when we're living fulfilled, we actually show up better everywhere.
[00:26:46]  We lead better.
[00:26:46]  We're better friends.
[00:26:47]  We're better relationships and collaborators and all those things because we have passion about the things we're doing.
[00:26:53]  If you're trying to build something of your own this year, join us in these conversations that will make you braver and smarter with your money.
[00:27:00]  Listen to Dos Amingos as part of the Michael Tura Podcast Network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
[00:27:08]  I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him.
[00:27:12]  I was, hi, dad.
[00:27:13]  And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and she says, I have some cookies and milk.
[00:27:21]  There's this badass conviction.
[00:27:23]  Just finish fire.
[00:27:25]  I'm gonna have cookies and milk come on.
[00:27:30]  On the Ceno Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption.
[00:27:37]  On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail to talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances.
[00:27:46]  The entire season two is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more.
[00:27:54]  I'm an alcoholic.
[00:27:57]  Without this pro-Imma died, open your free iHeartRadio app, search the Ceno Show, and listen now.

=== Inverse Crucifying Your Children (15:17) ===

[00:28:08]  Hey there, folks.
[00:28:08]  Amy Roebuck and TJ Holmes here.
[00:28:11]  And we know there is a lot of news coming at you these days from the war with Iran to the ongoing Epstein fallout, government shutdowns, high-profile trials, and what the hell is that Blake Lively thing about anyway?
[00:28:23]  We are on it every day, all day.
[00:28:25]  Follow us, Amy and TJ, for news updates throughout the day.
[00:28:29]  Listen to Amy and TJ on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
[00:28:41]  We're back.
[00:28:42]  Margaret and I both have our crank-operated, not technically machine guns.
[00:28:47]  That's right.
[00:28:48]  Yeah, as I hope all of you do, you know, anyway, unless you're in Germany, where I think that probably is illegal, because I'm sure they wrote their laws more like less like Americans, shall we say?
[00:29:00]  So, yeah, we're talking about Schraber and his whole attitude is that like if kids slouch, if they like, you know, when they're laying down, they flop around.
[00:29:09]  If they're not basically straight while standing or straight while prone at all times, they're going to get started on the road to moral ruin.
[00:29:18]  So, since children would naturally curl or lean on their bodies at some point, it wasn't enough for him to say he's not just the kind of guy who is like maybe that adult most of us had, who was like, you should straighten up.
[00:29:28]  You got to care about your posture, right?
[00:29:31]  He developed corrective treatments to reverse the damage.
[00:29:34]  His attitude was like, well, unless people have been applying my teachings to their infants from birth, those kids probably have bad habits.
[00:29:42]  And so we need medical orthodic devices to correct their bad posture.
[00:29:47]  Now, some of the back brace?
[00:29:49]  Yes, he kind of did actually, but worse.
[00:29:52]  Yeah.
[00:29:53]  No, one of his first creations was the bridge.
[00:29:56]  And this didn't require any new devices.
[00:29:58]  This is when, to correct a child's posture, you suspend them in the air by chairs underneath their head and feet.
[00:30:05]  And they kind of like keep themselves straight.
[00:30:07]  This is like a hardcore CrossFit exercise today.
[00:30:11]  And he was saying, if your four-year-old slouches, this is what you do.
[00:30:16]  So if he's going to show you a picture from his textbook, and he wanted you to do this, to apply the bridge to children, if you caught them walking with a quote forward slump, which he defined as an expression of weakness, dumbness, and cowardice.
[00:30:30]  Okay, so I'm looking at a picture of, I mean, it's a there's two chairs.
[00:30:33]  A man is sitting not with his shoulders on the top chair, but literally his head.
[00:30:38]  His head.
[00:30:38]  So his neck is doing a lot of work.
[00:30:41]  His neck is going to be ruined for life.
[00:30:43]  I love the idea that like, oh, yeah, I don't know if anyone can do this.
[00:30:46]  Dumb coward stuff.
[00:30:48]  No, it doesn't seem like that's not like the way he's it's specific because there is an exercise a plank exercise that kind of looks like this, but all of the weight is being placed on the child's neck in this picture.
[00:31:05]  Oh, we love to see it, Margaret.
[00:31:07]  Now, bad baby.
[00:31:09]  This guy's a vampire.
[00:31:12]  That would have been a lot less harmful to the kids.
[00:31:14]  That is my theory about almost everything that happened in Europe in the 19th century.
[00:31:18]  So.
[00:31:19]  Oh, you see, I was going to say my theory is that most of the problems with kids is that they have too much blood, but similar, similar problems.
[00:31:25]  So that actually could be the solution of the problem.
[00:31:27]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:31:29]  So bad posture is not the only thing that Schreber sought to eliminate.
[00:31:33]  Writing in 1858 that parents had to, quote, suppress everything in the child.
[00:31:37]  Emotions must be suffocated in their seed right away.
[00:31:41]  That's such a telling phrase.
[00:31:45]  Yes, the seed of being able to love your parents has to be suffocated through constant discipline.
[00:31:51]  What is the point of life?
[00:31:52]  I like genuinely wonder.
[00:31:55]  The point of life is for the German principalities to form a unified bloc to defeat France, Margaret.
[00:32:02]  Get them together.
[00:32:04]  France is just over there, like being France.
[00:32:07]  And I understand that.
[00:32:09]  Yeah.
[00:32:09]  Hey, they've been fucking around a lot by the mid-1800s.
[00:32:12]  You know, this guy is born at the start of the 1800s.
[00:32:15]  To be fair, his childhood has a lot of French fuckery going on in it.
[00:32:19]  Yeah.
[00:32:20]  Some would call them the Germans of their era.
[00:32:28]  It's fine, everybody.
[00:32:29]  You can't tell European history and have a good time without being unfair to France, Germany, or the UK.
[00:32:36]  And I choose all three.
[00:32:38]  I'm also going to give some shit to Belgium.
[00:32:40]  Don't worry.
[00:32:41]  So again, he urges parents to apply his methods as early as possible because children who are older will develop harmful habits that are more deeply rooted.
[00:32:49]  For these unfortunate souls, he developed orthotic methods.
[00:32:52]  One was a shoulder band.
[00:32:54]  It's basically a figure eight-shaped leather belt that you wrap around a child's shoulders, kind of like the holsters movie detectives wear, and then you tighten it to the point that it ties a child's arms and shoulders back straight behind them.
[00:33:08]  I could advertise these on Instagram right now.
[00:33:12]  Yeah, yes, you could.
[00:33:13]  Yes, you could.
[00:33:14]  Doctor approved orthotics for your child if they slouch.
[00:33:18]  Yeah.
[00:33:18]  Schreber instructed parents to make sure their kids wore these things all day, every day until their posture was fixed.
[00:33:25]  And throughout the mid-1800s, as he's writing his books, he designs this spree of child torture gadgets.
[00:33:31]  My favorite of which is the Schreberch Geralthalder.
[00:33:35]  The literal translation of that name is Schreber's straight holder.
[00:33:39]  In an article for the journal Selma Gundy, Morton Schatzman writes, describes it as, quote, an iron crossbar fastened to the table at which the child sat to read or write.
[00:33:49]  The bar pressed against the collarbones and the front of the shoulders to prevent forward movements or crooked posture.
[00:33:55]  He says the child could not lean for long against the bar because of the pressure of the hard object against the bones and the consequent discomfort.
[00:34:02]  The child will return on his own to a straight position.
[00:34:06]  He added excitedly, I had a Jared halter manufactured, which proved itself to be suitable after multiple tests on my own children.
[00:34:16]  You're sort of inverse crucifying your children.
[00:34:19]  Yeah.
[00:34:21]  You're building devices to correct your kids.
[00:34:25]  He is like, yeah, you love that kind of self or experimentation on your own brood.
[00:34:30]  At least it's the responsible.
[00:34:32]  It's not responsible.
[00:34:33]  But that's how he does it.
[00:34:34]  Yeah.
[00:34:35]  So one look at a picture of a pair of schoolgirls using this device makes one of its uses very clear, which is that it stops kids from crossing their legs.
[00:34:44]  This is good because Schreber felt cross legs were immoral.
[00:34:47]  The Gerald halter was such a, yeah, he didn't like kids like, I think particularly it might have been that like if boys did it, he felt like they were rubbing their genitals.
[00:34:57]  I don't exactly know, but he was like, girls are like expected to cross their legs because if you don't, you're a bad person.
[00:35:03]  There's like a little rhyme in school that we all he doesn't want anything going on at all movement-wise there, right?
[00:35:10]  He wants those legs straight and children unable to move, deviate from the position they are sat in their chair without iron bars to their body.
[00:35:18]  Bent arms while saluting.
[00:35:20]  You need to keep your arms straight while you're saluting.
[00:35:22]  No, otherwise you're not going to defeat Napoleon III.
[00:35:26]  So the Jared Halter was a huge success, very popular in his day.
[00:35:32]  And it's such a success that he follows it up quickly with a new device, which is essentially a belt tied to a child's bed that ran across their chest to force them to lay straight on their back while sleeping.
[00:35:44]  The diagrams for this are really quite upsetting, Margaret.
[00:35:48]  It looks like a dead kid in a bed.
[00:35:52]  It looks like one of those.
[00:35:55]  There's vampires.
[00:35:57]  There's vampires everywhere.
[00:35:58]  Yeah, you're just preparing the kid to get fucking feasted on.
[00:36:02]  Yeah.
[00:36:03]  I mean, it's just a picture of a girl lying in a bed.
[00:36:07]  Wide open eyes.
[00:36:09]  Clearly, like strapped so tight into that bed that she cannot sleep.
[00:36:14]  Yeah.
[00:36:14]  Great.
[00:36:15]  I'm sure this never goes badly.
[00:36:18]  No, no, no.
[00:36:19]  Generations of kids are healthier as a result of it.
[00:36:22]  Somewhere there's someone in a kink scene who's like, oh, the blah, blah, blah belt.
[00:36:25]  Oh, yeah, of course.
[00:36:27]  I'm sorry that leather manufacturers in this day charge a lot more than they did back in Schreber's day.
[00:36:35]  So the last device we'll talk about, but by no means the last device Shreber created, was the cop falter or head holder, which was a strap to hold a child's head in place while they were at a desk.
[00:36:46]  Shatzman writes, quote, the cop falter was a strap clamped at one end to the child's hair and at the other to his underwear.
[00:36:52]  So it pulled his head if he did not hold his head straight.
[00:36:56]  It served as a reminder to keep the head straight.
[00:36:59]  And this is a Shreber, the consciousness that the head cannot be lowered past a certain point soon becomes a habit.
[00:37:06]  He admits it was apt to produce a certain stiffening effect upon the head and should therefore be used only one or two hours a day.
[00:37:14]  Oh, it's progressive of him.
[00:37:15]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:16]  After you like do permanent damage to your child's musculature, you should limit the amount of permanent damage you do.
[00:37:22]  I want to build a time machine to bring him to the present and show him kids looking at cell phones.
[00:37:27]  Oh, man.
[00:37:27]  Oh, God.
[00:37:29]  He was my torture for him.
[00:37:31]  That is his hell, is just watching modern kids play video games, just shrieking at us from the astral plane.
[00:37:39]  Yeah.
[00:37:41]  Now, again, the goal of all of these physical interventions was to improve moral character by altering the physical attributes of children.
[00:37:49]  The goal was to create a better class of person.
[00:37:52]  And it's not hard to see the spiritual echoes of Nazism here.
[00:37:56]  Again, people often mistake what the Nazis believed is like they thought that they were the ubermenschen, right?
[00:38:00]  That they were superhumans, you know, because they were Aryan.
[00:38:04]  No, no, no.
[00:38:04]  They thought that they could create people who were closer to the original Aryans through a mixture of selective breeding and like different rearing techniques, right?
[00:38:14]  They didn't think they were there yet.
[00:38:15]  They wanted to build it.
[00:38:16]  That's a crucial distinction, right?
[00:38:18]  That they were trying to create this better kind of person.
[00:38:22]  Not like they were trying to build.
[00:38:24]  The auranx or the aurax.
[00:38:25]  Someone's going to be really mad at me.
[00:38:26]  The auranx, yes.
[00:38:28]  The giant cow things.
[00:38:29]  Yes.
[00:38:30]  Yeah.
[00:38:30]  They wanted to build giant cows and giant Nazi men.
[00:38:34]  They're not wrong about wanting giant cows.
[00:38:36]  Everything else, I don't support, but I do think we should have bigger cows.
[00:38:40]  I would fully support a Jurassic Park project.
[00:38:43]  Absolutely.
[00:38:44]  Honestly, I would support a Jurassic Park that ended exactly the way the one in the movie did.
[00:38:48]  And I would go to that park.
[00:38:50]  I would probably.
[00:38:52]  Absolutely.
[00:38:53]  I'd be a little disappointed if they didn't break free and start roaming the imagine if it was just like a normal park.
[00:38:59]  You're like getting ready to leave.
[00:39:00]  Like, I don't know.
[00:39:01]  It just feels like something's missing.
[00:39:03]  I feel like it'd be like something more honest where you like, you know, you kiss your husband goodbye and you head out to work and you look both ways and run to your car before a Velociraptor gets you.
[00:39:13]  Yes.
[00:39:13]  Yes.
[00:39:13]  Like Muldoon.
[00:39:15]  We should all commute to work exactly like Muldoon commuted across briefly across a street in Jurassic Park that one time.
[00:39:24]  Yeah.
[00:39:25]  So exactly.
[00:39:26]  Yeah.
[00:39:27]  Anyway, when we're looking at like a guy whose goal is to improve the moral character by altering physical attributes of children, it's not hard to see spiritual echoes to Nazism here.
[00:39:38]  As writer Rachel Aviv notes in an article for the New Yorker, Schreber outlined principles of child rearing that would create a stronger race of men, ridding them of cowardice, laziness, and unwanted displays of vulnerability and desire.
[00:39:51]  Now, Dr. Schreber's books were so popular and influential that his book on children's posture and corrective exercises went through more than 40 printings.
[00:40:00]  Late in his career, he seems to have acknowledged that some of his physical corrections did not produce the intended moral results.
[00:40:07]  And he actually, again, this is why this guy's not fully, I can't really call him a bastard.
[00:40:12]  He, because of his peculiarities, posits a lot of ideas that cause tremendous harm to children.
[00:40:18]  There are like parenting groups that are not insignificant in size to the middle of the 19th century that are using aspects of Schreber tactics.
[00:40:25]  But also he recognizes that like, oh, you know what?
[00:40:28]  This stuff isn't working the way I thought it would.
[00:40:31]  And kind of late in his life, he comes around to lobbying for more playgrounds in cities to give children a place to exercise.
[00:40:38]  And his most well-regarded achievement to this day is the establishment of what are called Schreber gardens, which are all around Germany today.
[00:40:45]  These are community gardens in urban areas meant to provide children and parents with healthy outdoor activity.
[00:40:50]  So again, that's kind of wholesome.
[00:40:53]  That's nice.
[00:40:53]  That's good.
[00:40:55]  He started from like strapping children into torture cages, but he ended up in community gardens.
[00:41:02]  Okay.
[00:41:03]  Yeah.
[00:41:03]  Okay.
[00:41:04]  Good work, Schreber.
[00:41:06]  Yeah.
[00:41:06]  You have to be fair to the guy.
[00:41:08]  He's not like, I don't think he is a bad faith.
[00:41:10]  I don't think he's wanting to hurt kids.
[00:41:12]  I think this is just, he's kind of a weird dude who obsesses about certain things and that leads him to doing, causing, to coming up with some harmful ideas about how children should be treated.
[00:41:24]  I honestly, I have a weird sympathy towards this where he had an idea where he was like, okay, I want to try and improve people and it didn't work.
[00:41:30]  And he was like, okay, I'll try something different.
[00:41:31]  Like I think about, I like, I wish I had been taught to stand equally on both my feet more.
[00:41:40]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:41:41]  Because I have my sciatica exists in part because, and I actually blame, I took like art classes, right?
[00:41:48]  And they taught me about contrapasta where they were like, this is the way people normally stand.
[00:41:52]  And it's like, cause all the old Greek statues are like someone standing on one leg with all their weight on one leg.
[00:41:57]  And so I thought that was like the normal way to stand.
[00:41:59]  So I did that all the time.
[00:42:01]  And now I have like, you know, 20 years later, it causes some problems in my life.
[00:42:05]  And I'm like, yeah.
[00:42:06]  I wish I put my weight on both feet.
[00:42:08]  He's acknowledging his solutions are because he's growing up in mid-century Europe.
[00:42:14]  He's a child of the Napoleonic Wars.
[00:42:16]  His solutions are nightmarish.
[00:42:18]  But he's like, well, kids are living in cities.
[00:42:20]  They're not getting enough exercise.
[00:42:21]  We have to do something to remedy this problem.
[00:42:24]  And he does.
[00:42:25]  I think he lands ultimately pretty close to the right answer, which is like, give kids playgrounds, make sure they have access to nature through stuff like gardens, right?
[00:42:34]  I still think that's basically the best answer to this problem today.
[00:42:37]  Yeah.
[00:42:38]  And tell people like, well, if you don't stand up straight, it'll cause problems further down the line and it's your body.
[00:42:43]  Yeah, it's your body.
[00:42:44]  Make your own decision.
[00:42:45]  Again, don't strap them into, yeah.
[00:42:47]  The problem is that people follow his teachings well into the 20th century.
[00:42:52]  And after he's kind of see, yeah, after he gives up on aspects of them.
[00:42:57]  Now that's not like he's not like 180.
[00:42:59]  He's not like the alpha wolf guy.
[00:43:00]  No, His kids do not grow up to be what you would call straight-backed moral paragons.
[00:43:09]  Not that they're bad people, but you can kind of see how flawed his methods are by what happens to his two sons in particular.
[00:43:17]  His eldest son commits suicide in 1877, and it seems as if mental illness is pretty common in his family.

=== Miracles, Demons, and Schreber's Madness (11:16) ===

[00:43:25]  Again, he seems to suffer from it, but it's his son Daniel who's going to become famous for it.
[00:43:29]  And this is like one of the most famous cases in the history of like psychology, particularly of someone with paranoid schizophrenia.
[00:43:38]  His son is a guy named Daniel Paul Schraber.
[00:43:41]  He is subjected again.
[00:43:42]  His dad writes about testing his methods, testing these different torture devices on his kids when they're little kids.
[00:43:48]  So Daniel is subjected to his father's strict discipline and these physical torture devices constantly as a young child.
[00:43:55]  And for a time, he seems to have grown into exactly the kind of disciplined, functional adult that Dr. Schraber wanted to create.
[00:44:02]  He is appointed a judge by the Ministry of Justice in 1867.
[00:44:07]  He is a judge for more than a decade through the establishment of the German Empire.
[00:44:12]  And in 1884, he runs for a seat in the Reichstag.
[00:44:16]  So far, we're like, well, this seems like the kind of ultra productive, efficient German citizen that Schreber was seeking to create through these methods.
[00:44:24]  Right.
[00:44:24]  When he aurox of people.
[00:44:26]  Yeah, the aurochs of people.
[00:44:28]  But when Daniel loses that Reichstag election, he has a mental breakdown, which causes him to take, he has to go like spend six months in an asylum.
[00:44:37]  Now, psychiatrists have since diagnosed what he was likely suffering from as dementia pracox or paranoid schizophrenia.
[00:44:45]  Essentially, he had a psychotic break, right?
[00:44:47]  Like that's that's what went down.
[00:44:49]  He lost this election and he had a psychotic break.
[00:44:51]  At the time, it was assumed to be an isolated incident, and he did return to work.
[00:44:56]  But a few years later, after he became a presiding judge, his wife had a stillbirth and he experienced another psychotic break.
[00:45:03]  This one did not get better and he spent years institutionalized, only being released in 1899, at which point he wrote a memoir about his nervous illness.
[00:45:12]  This is one of the most influential texts in our early history of understanding psychiatric illnesses because Schraber is not just a guy who's dealing with paranoid schizophrenia before it is something that medical literature is fully described, has fully described.
[00:45:27]  Schreber is an educated man who is aware of the extent of the delusions that he's suffering from and writes about them in detail.
[00:45:35]  And so this is an influential, yes, it's very interesting.
[00:45:39]  And it's oddly enough, actually, Kurt Vonneguts, one of his kids, does something kind of similar.
[00:45:44]  But as a result of the fact that he writes this memoir, we get this look inside of the head of someone who has a thing that a lot of people struggle with.
[00:45:52]  Most of the people who struggle with it do not have the advantage of this guy's education or social position.
[00:45:58]  So he is not just, not only is he able to write about what he's experiencing, but people pay attention to it because this is a judge and they want to know what happened to this very functional man, right?
[00:46:08]  Freud writes a pretty noteworthy review of Schreber's memoirs.
[00:46:12]  And in true Freud fashion, he blames Daniel's disturbances and paranoia on repressed homosexuality.
[00:46:19]  Specifically, Freud is like, he wanted to fuck his dad as a kid, then he wanted to fuck his brother, and he couldn't.
[00:46:24]  You know, he does the Freud thing, right?
[00:46:27]  This is kind of silly because Schreber does experience paranoid sexual fantasies, but not that kind.
[00:46:33]  He specifically writes that he woke up one morning with the thought that it might be fun to, quote, succumb to sex as a woman, right?
[00:46:41]  And that is a pretty normal thought.
[00:46:43]  Like a lot of people have thoughts about like, oh, it might be fun to experience this the other way.
[00:46:49]  Maybe that means that he was repressed and homosexual.
[00:46:52]  Maybe it's just a normal thought that a lot of people have.
[00:46:55]  But either way, Freud ties this directly to his schizophrenia, which I don't think is accurate.
[00:47:01]  That just seems like a thing a person would experience.
[00:47:04]  But Schatzman, who we've quoted before, pointed out that the delusions Schraber suffered from that he describes in his book coincide directly with the kind of experiments carried out by his father.
[00:47:17]  And again, I don't think Judge, what Judge Schraber does doesn't cause paranoid schizophrenia.
[00:47:22]  Right.
[00:47:23]  You can't cause that that way.
[00:47:25]  But the nature of the delusions that Judge Schraber suffers from are very much influenced by what his father does to him as a child.
[00:47:35]  Yeah.
[00:47:35]  So in his book, Judge Schreber uses the term miracles to describe these kind of delusions that he is experiencing.
[00:47:43]  And it's hard to explain why he chooses the term miracle, but that's not really important.
[00:47:48]  What you need to understand is that when he is talking about the term miracle, he's essentially talking about a hallucinatory fantasy.
[00:47:54]  And many of these fantasies that he is gripped by as an adult are based on his real childhood experiences.
[00:48:01]  For example, he describes the miracle of head compression with some regularity, which he imagines as a gang of little devils that are inside his head, compressing it as though it's in a vice by turning a screw, right?
[00:48:13]  He has these kind of like fantasies of devils screwing his head in a vice.
[00:48:17]  This is really interesting to me because it's like, I'm really interested in when metaphor is a better way to understand things than other ways of describing it.
[00:48:28]  And so even the calling it miracles sort of ties into that in my mind.
[00:48:32]  I don't understand, you know, I haven't read this piece, but no, this is because we're looking at the period in which modern conceptions of reality start developing is the end of the 19th and early 20th century.
[00:48:44]  And even the like a repressed homosexuality thing, to be a man who desires to experience sex like a woman would have been essentially homosexual at that time in terms of not just because it would have been a man doing it to you, but like transness was not distinct from homosexuality in the late Victorian, like pre-1910 or so era.
[00:49:08]  Absolutely not.
[00:49:09]  And there's, there's, you know, this is, this is also, it's kind of worth noting, all considered mental illness at the time, too.
[00:49:16]  Totally.
[00:49:17]  So like it gets, it all gets conflated together.
[00:49:19]  Yeah.
[00:49:19]  And so of course being like, oh, there's just demons that do this thing to me, but it's like not wrong.
[00:49:23]  That's what's so interesting about there were demons doing this to him.
[00:49:26]  And I think an aspect of like why he describes these as miracles is that his dad, who is doing this to him, kind of describes it as like, I'm doing this to help you, right?
[00:49:34]  Much like that mom fluencer we talked about, right?
[00:49:37]  Like where you're abusing the kid and telling them that I'm doing this because I love you, right?
[00:49:41]  Dr. Schreber legitimately does think he's helping.
[00:49:45]  And but what he's doing, like the fact that he fantasizes about this gang of devils screwing his head in a vice, well, his dad is tying his head into a device that causes it to like pull against his fucking, like this like bar strapped to his underpants or whatever, whenever he leans forward and shit, right?
[00:50:03]  My guess is that part of what's happening here is that the different devices that are used on him as a kid cause some lifelong pain.
[00:50:10]  And when he experiences that pain, he has kind of a hallucinatory fantasy that attributes the pain to something not all that different from its likely cause.
[00:50:19]  You know, that's what I see as happening here, kind of.
[00:50:23]  That makes sense to me.
[00:50:24]  This is all debatable, but I think it makes sense.
[00:50:27]  In his paper, Paranoia or Persecution, the case of Schreber, published in the journal Salmagundi, Morton Schatzman writes, quote, why did Schreber turn memories into miracles?
[00:50:37]  My hypothesis is that his father had forbidden him to see the truth about his past.
[00:50:41]  His father had demanded that children love, honor, and obey their parents.
[00:50:44]  As I illustrate later, he taught parents a method explicitly designed to force children not to feel bitterness or anger towards their parents, even where such feelings might be justified.
[00:50:53]  He wished to rid children of dangerous feelings.
[00:50:56]  Schreber, in order to link his suffering with his father, would have had to consider his father's behavior towards him as bad.
[00:51:02]  This, I infer, his father had forbidden him to do.
[00:51:04]  He is unable or unwilling to violate his father's view of what his view of his father should be.
[00:51:09]  Prohibited from seeing the true origin of his torments, he calls them miracles.
[00:51:13]  As a result, he is considered crazy.
[00:51:16]  Now, again, Shatzman is writing here in like the 80s, and he is also not talking about any of this in a way that is contemporary to our understanding of like the actual medical science here.
[00:51:27]  Right.
[00:51:27]  Um, also, Schreber is considered crazy because he has paranoid schizophrenia, right?
[00:51:32]  Like, that's that's the it's it's the kind of um it's not that because he describes these hallucinations as miracles, it's because he's having them in the first place that he is institutionalized and the like.
[00:51:43]  But I do think Shatzman is accurate in sort of laying out that the form and nature of what delusions Schreber faces are part are like influenced heavily by his father's teaching techniques.
[00:51:57]  And I, yeah, what I think is most interesting about this is this idea.
[00:52:01]  And I, again, I think this is kind of where Shatzman makes some mistakes, but he's like, well, Schreber's technique, he wanted to make it basically impossible for kids to like blame their parents or feel bad.
[00:52:11]  Like these were some of the like bitterness and angerness towards parents.
[00:52:15]  These were some of the bad feelings that he thought he could kind of smother in an embryonic stage if you established enough physical discipline.
[00:52:22]  Which they were just called as exorcism.
[00:52:24]  Yeah.
[00:52:25]  You know, a couple hundred years earlier, but he has to mask it in science as if it's not the same fucking thing.
[00:52:30]  But also, you know, as we talked about, Schreber is not a monster.
[00:52:34]  He's a guy who is trying to actually help kids and who changes throughout and who comes up with some very positive things.
[00:52:41]  And so I think that Shatzman is kind of overapplying, well, he, because of his father's teachings, his son couldn't see the harm that he had done.
[00:52:50]  I think part of it is that because of the good attributes of his father, the son is unable to fully see the harm that he did, too, which is like actually not a thing that's even related to paranoid schizophrenia.
[00:53:02]  That's something all of us deal with, basically.
[00:53:05]  Like trying to separate the things that our parents did that were flawed and bad and even related to the fact that they are products of their time from the things that they did out of love, out of self-sacrifice that are good.
[00:53:17]  Like that's a lifelong process for a lot of us.
[00:53:20]  And Shatzman doing this thing that a lot of people do when they analyze cases of mental illness is kind of wrapping it all up in the paranoid schizophrenia.
[00:53:28]  Where when I read this, I'm like, oh, yeah, Schreber was like grappling with the fact that his dad had a complicated legacy.
[00:53:35]  Yeah.
[00:53:36]  And he was also had paranoid schizophrenia.
[00:53:38]  So he did it in a different way than most people do.
[00:53:40]  But I don't see that as being like, I think it's a pretty rational thing to struggle with, actually.
[00:53:47]  Well, it almost like puts him in a position where he can see things, explain things in ways that are like shocking.
[00:53:53]  Yeah.
[00:53:54]  That like still draw attention to it.
[00:53:56]  Whereas if he had just stayed like, you know, by calling it miracles and demons, I mean, it made people paint him as crazy.
[00:54:03]  Yeah.
[00:54:04]  Because he was experiencing reality differently than other people.
[00:54:07]  But it, yeah, it's, it's, it's shocking enough to bring it out.
[00:54:10]  It's compared to being like, I have this chart describing exactly how much my pain feels different every day based on what my father did.
[00:54:16]  You know, yes.
[00:54:18]  Yes.
[00:54:19]  And speaking of what our fathers did, what our fathers would all do if they were here right now is tell us to buy the products and services that support this podcast.
[00:54:27]  Unless you have a bad relationship with your dad, then your dad will be angry if you buy the products and services that support this podcast.
[00:54:33]  Stick it to your dad.
[00:54:34]  Stick it to the man or make him proud.
[00:54:37]  Whichever is more profitable to us.

=== Painting Fathers as Crazy Men (03:15) ===

[00:54:41]  If you are a founder or a freelancer or the friend who always says, Hey, you know what?
[00:54:46]  What if I started that?
[00:54:47]  This is for you.
[00:54:48]  I'm telling you, I had nothing to my name.
[00:54:50]  I didn't know a single person in New York.
[00:54:52]  And somehow I'm dressed by Oscar De Lorenda walking down that red carpet.
[00:54:56]  This month, we sit down with entrepreneurs and creators who actually did it, who turned this scary leap into a business, a paycheck, and a life they are proud of.
[00:55:05]  Direct center of our happiness or our regrets is whether or not we're taking action on the things that matter to us.
[00:55:11]  They're not selfish.
[00:55:13]  They're so important.
[00:55:14]  They actually lead to our greatest contributions because when we're living fulfilled, we actually show up better everywhere.
[00:55:20]  We lead better, we're better friends, we're better relationships and collaborators and all those things because we have passion about the things we're doing.
[00:55:27]  If you're trying to build something of your own this year, join us in these conversations that will make you braver and smarter with your money.
[00:55:33]  Listen to Dos Amingos as part of the Michael Tura Podcast Network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
[00:55:42]  I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him and I said, hi, dad.
[00:55:47]  And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and she says, I have some cookies and milk.
[00:55:55]  This is badass convict.
[00:55:57]  Right.
[00:55:57]  Just finished five.
[00:55:59]  I'm going to have cookies and milk.
[00:56:01]  Yeah, mom.
[00:56:03]  On the Ceno Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption.
[00:56:11]  On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances.
[00:56:20]  The entire season two is now available to bench, featuring powerful conversations with guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more.
[00:56:28]  I'm an alcoholic.
[00:56:30]  And without this program, I'm a guide.
[00:56:34]  Open your free iHeartRadio app.
[00:56:36]  Search the Ceno Show.
[00:56:38]  And listen now.
[00:56:41]  This is Amy Roebuck, alongside TJ Holmes from the Amy and TJ podcast.
[00:56:46]  And there is so much news, information, commentary coming at you all day and from all over the place.
[00:56:52]  What's fact, what's fake, and sometimes what the F.
[00:56:56]  So let's cut the crap, okay?
[00:56:58]  Follow the Amy and TJ podcast, a one-stop news and pop culture shop to get you caught up and on with your day.
[00:57:05]  And listen to Amy and TJ on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
[00:57:13]  I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really started making money.
[00:57:18]  It's financial literacy month, and the podcast Eating Wild Broke is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future.
[00:57:26]  This month, hear from top streamer Zoe Spencer and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up.
[00:57:35]  If I'm outside with my parents and they see all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what?
[00:57:40]  Today now, obviously, it's like 100%.
[00:57:43]  They believe everything.
[00:57:44]  But at first, it was just like, you got to go get a real job.
[00:57:48]  There's an economic component to communities thriving.
[00:57:51]  If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail.
[00:57:55]  And what I mean by fellas, they don't have money to pay for food.

=== Kintler: The Bastard We Build To (07:44) ===

[00:57:57]  They cannot feed their kids.
[00:57:58]  They do not have homes.
[00:57:59]  Communities don't work unless there's money flowing through them.
[00:58:03]  Listen to Eating Wild Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
[00:58:15]  We're back.
[00:58:17]  So in recent years, decades, really, there have been attempts to rehabilitate Dr. Schreber.
[00:58:22]  And again, there's not, that's not wholly irrational because like the Schreber Gardens, that's fucking great.
[00:58:27]  His attitudes towards like kindergartens, some of what he says is valuable.
[00:58:31]  When it comes to the harm that his techniques, particularly these machines, cause generations of children, and particularly how his philosophy of child rearing contributed to the birth of Nazism, you know, I think it's a mistake to correlate his teachings too strongly with the coming of fascism, right?
[00:58:50]  Right.
[00:58:50]  And there's a good, you know, one of the people who's kind of made this point is a writer named V. Lothan writing in a 1994 issue of the New York Review of Books.
[00:58:58]  Quote: The generation that became the German army or the SS Corps in World War II, born around 1910, was unlikely to have been raised on Moritz Schreber's books, forgotten by that time.
[00:59:09]  That's a little inaccurate.
[00:59:10]  According to Walter Havernick's 1964 monograph, Beating is Punishment, in the post-World War I years, there was a decline in household beating and an increase in school beating, ages 9 to 14, correlated with fallen fathers, not to mention the harsh and cruel training practices in the German army.
[00:59:25]  It is character assassination to apply the label totalitarianism to the Schreber's household or books, considering the complex causes of Nazi anti-Semitism, militarism, totalitarianism, and the results for Jews and others.
[00:59:37]  And I quipple with bits of that.
[00:59:39]  I agree with his ultimate point, which is that you shouldn't say this is the guy who made the Nazis possible because of his childhood.
[00:59:45]  There's so much more to it than that.
[00:59:47]  And move it into the schools.
[00:59:50]  That seems now society is your abusive father that you now have to owe your life to.
[00:59:56]  And some of that is just because so many men died, but some of it certainly is that Schreber's teachings made their way, worm their way very deeply into society's understanding of how children should be raised, right?
[01:00:06]  That you should have this, you should very strictly enforce physical discipline because that leads to moral discipline.
[01:00:11]  You have to do it from an extremely young age, right?
[01:00:13]  Schreber helps to reinforce and scientificize or whatever those attitudes in German society.
[01:00:19]  And he is one of the, he is, he is part of the DNA of Nazism as a result of that, right?
[01:00:26]  But you also shouldn't, you can't, you can't, you don't want to exaggerate or minimize his role in the Nazi equation, right?
[01:00:33]  Because his methods are still being taught.
[01:00:36]  Zvi is wrong when he says that like kids were not being taught based on Moritz Schreber's books in 1910.
[01:00:43]  They absolutely will.
[01:00:44]  One of the kids who, in fact, is being taught based on the Schreber method around the time that the Nazis come to power is a guy we're going to be talking about next week, Helmut Kintler.
[01:00:54]  He's born in 1928 and his parents are Dr. Schreber fans, again, in the late 1920s.
[01:01:00]  Kintler is ultimately the bastard that we are building to with this series, but I want to read this quote about his upbringing by Rachel Leviv and the New Yorkers so you know how Schreber's teachings were being used popularly around the time that the Third Reich rose to power.
[01:01:14]  Quote, when Kintler misbehaved, his father threatened to buy a contraption invented by Schreber to promote children's posture and compliance, shoulder bands to prevent slouching, a belt that held their chest in place while they slept, an iron bar pressed to their collarbone so they'd sit up straight at the table.
[01:01:29]  If Kintler talked out of turn, his father slammed his fist on the table and shouted, When the father talks, the children must be silent.
[01:01:37]  And, you know, I want to end on that.
[01:01:40]  We will be talking a lot about Kintler next week.
[01:01:43]  He is by far the worst person we're talking about in this series.
[01:01:48]  But it's important you know both that like the primary method by which Schreber influences the Nazis is kind of deeper than a straight line, but there are still kids, and Kintler's dad is a Nazi officer.
[01:02:01]  He's a member of the military high command in Berlin.
[01:02:05]  They are still raising their kids based on a not insignificant number of people during the time that Hitler is rising to power.
[01:02:12]  So that's important, worth noting.
[01:02:14]  And in part two, Margaret, we're going to talk about the guy, well, the lady that comes after Schreber, the momfluencer who is like the celebrity mom expert of the Nazi era.
[01:02:26]  And I am excited to tell you about her.
[01:02:29]  But first, Margaret, will you tell our listeners where they can find you on theinternet.com?
[01:02:36]  Well, if you go to the internet duck, I have no idea what happens if you type the internet.com into your website.
[01:02:41]  Neither do I, but someone's bought it.
[01:02:43]  It's probably a scam.
[01:02:44]  Yeah.
[01:02:44]  Yeah.
[01:02:45]  That is where you can find me is at whatever website you find there.
[01:02:48]  Or I have a podcast called Cool People Did Cool Stuff, where I tell people positive stuff.
[01:02:54]  It's kind of a lie.
[01:02:54]  I tell people positive stories, but it usually goes really badly in the end because it's about the struggle for justice.
[01:03:00]  And we don't always win that one.
[01:03:02]  I also have a book that is going to be kick-started in June, starting June 10th, and the pre-launch page, so you can sign up for information about it.
[01:03:11]  Should be live around when this episode drops.
[01:03:14]  And I wrote a teen YA book without any bad things.
[01:03:19]  Of course, there's bad things.
[01:03:19]  It's a novel.
[01:03:20]  Bad things have to happen in a novel called The Sapling Cage.
[01:03:23]  And it's great, by the way.
[01:03:26]  Yeah, Robert actually read it.
[01:03:28]  It is my favorite piece of your writing so far.
[01:03:30]  It's excellent.
[01:03:32]  It's the kind of book I wish I had had to read as a kid.
[01:03:35]  It might have helped me get a couple of things straight earlier than I wound up doing.
[01:03:39]  So, yeah, The Sapling Cage.
[01:03:42]  Read it, folks.
[01:03:44]  You can sign up for the Kickstarter now, or you can sign up to be told about the Kickstarter now by using Google.
[01:03:50]  It's got witches and knights and a wide variety of lovingly described melee weaponry.
[01:03:56]  So it's a Marcus Killjoy classic.
[01:04:01]  I was pretty into it.
[01:04:02]  When I was writing this book, it was when I was doing the most going out every week with foam weapons and fighting.
[01:04:09]  Yeah.
[01:04:09]  My friends.
[01:04:10]  Yeah.
[01:04:11]  And I really like spears and that comes across.
[01:04:14]  Look, you can tell who actually knows their medieval weaponry by who prefers a sword to a spear, right?
[01:04:23]  I don't want to be near that fucker.
[01:04:24]  No, Distance, baby.
[01:04:28]  It's really the same with all weapons.
[01:04:30]  The ideal weapon system is the one that keeps you furthest away from the enemy.
[01:04:34]  You know?
[01:04:35]  This is why they call artillery the king of battle or used to before airstrikes got really good.
[01:04:41]  Anyway, if you want an airstrike of content into your ear, Jamie's new podcast, 16th Minute of Fame, will hit like a 500 pen.
[01:04:51]  Nope, okay.
[01:04:52]  It's a good podcast.
[01:04:53]  It's about what happens to people who are like the internet's main character after, you know, that all fades.
[01:04:59]  What it's like being like focused on by the eye of Sauron, that is our culture's ability to like suddenly divert hundreds of millions of eyes to one person.
[01:05:09]  And then what it's like after that.
[01:05:11]  It's great shit.
[01:05:12]  Check out 16th Minute of Fame.
[01:05:14]  Is she going to cover the 30 to 50 Feral Hogs guy?
[01:05:17]  Oh, yeah.
[01:05:18]  Definitely if you can find it.
[01:05:19]  Actually, actually, she was at my house and we had a bunch of people over and we're watching a movie and I look and it's like midnight and I look over at Jamie's screen and she has like 500 notes about 30 to 50 feral hogs.
[01:05:32]  Yes.
[01:05:33]  It's like a presentation.
[01:05:34]  Yes.
[01:05:36]  The rightest man.
[01:05:37]  The internet did him dirty, but by God, he was right.
[01:05:40]  He tried to warn us.

=== Cool Zone Media Production Wrap (02:10) ===

[01:05:42]  He tried so hard.
[01:05:44]  Yeah.
[01:05:45]  Anyway, part two, more Nazis.
[01:05:52]  Behind the Bastards is a production of CoolZone Media.
[01:05:56]  For more from CoolZone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
[01:06:08]  On the Ceno Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversation about recovery, resilience, and redemption.
[01:06:15]  On a recent episode, I sit down with actor cultural icon Danny Trail to talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances.
[01:06:22]  The entire season two is now available to bench, featuring powerful conversations with guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more.
[01:06:28]  I'll an alcohol.
[01:06:31]  Oh my God.
[01:06:32]  Listen to Ceno's show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
[01:06:38]  Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic: Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing.
[01:06:47]  Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing.
[01:06:54]  Coming up this season on Math and Magic, CEO of Liquid Death Mike Cesario.
[01:06:59]  People think that creative ideas are like these light bulb moments that happen when you're in the shower, or it's really like a stone sculpture.
[01:07:06]  You're constantly just chipping away and refining.
[01:07:09]  Take to interactive CEO Strauss Selnick and our own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey.
[01:07:13]  Listen to Math and Magic on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
[01:07:19]  This is Amy Roebach, alongside TJ Holmes from the Amy and TJ Podcast.
[01:07:23]  And there is so much news, information, commentary coming at you all day and from all over the place.
[01:07:29]  What's fact, what's fake, and sometimes what the F.
[01:07:33]  So let's cut the crap, okay?
[01:07:35]  Follow the Amy and TJ Podcast, a one-stop news and pop culture shop to get you caught up and on with your day.
[01:07:43]  And listen to Amy and TJ on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
[01:07:49]  This is an iHeart podcast.
[01:07:51]  Guaranteed human.