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April 21, 2024 - The Ben Shapiro Show

01:05:03

When Sports Go Woke | Sage Steele

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	How was it working as a woman in this world?
	Because obviously there's a lot of controversy, especially at this time in the 80s, early 90s, about women being in sort of the sporting world.
	I remember there are a lot of conference about women's locker room and this sort of stuff.
	How did any of that impact you?
	What it did for me was it made me better.
	Because when you're in the, you know, you call it the media scrum, and it's an NFL Media Wednesday, and you've got, you know, 20 reporters, you know, gathering around Shannon Sharp or Ray Lewis or whoever it was.
	And, you know, Warren Sapp, difficult people like Warren Sapp, and you have to like, you know, you're in there, you're trying to get your mic in and all these big, fat, smelly male reporters.
	And I was like, OK, that's helpful, number one.
	But number two, because it was all male voices, I knew that when I spoke, it would sound different and it would maybe stop some people.
	And so what came out of my mouth better be damn good.
	Sage Steele is more than just a sports journalist.
	She's a trailblazer whose life story embodies the essence of determination, courage, and integrity.
	Sage's journey is rooted in the disciplined environment of a military family, an upbringing that instilled in her a profound sense of duty, resilience, and adaptability.
	As one of the few women in the early days to step into the male-dominated arena of sports locker rooms, Sage broke through barriers with grace and professionalism.
	Her experiences in these environments, often challenging and sometimes unwelcoming, have given her unique insight into the dynamics of sports culture.
	Beginning her illustrious career at WSBT-TV in South Bend, Indiana, Sage quickly distinguished herself in the realm of sports reporting.
	Her path led her through prestigious roles at WISH-TV in Indianapolis, WFTS in Tampa, and Comcast Sportsnet Mid-Atlantic before she made her mark at ESPN beginning in 2007.
	Sage's tenure at ESPN was nothing short of remarkable, from anchoring SportsCenter to hosting NBA Countdown and the Miss America pageant, showcasing her versatility and breadth of talent.
	Beyond her on-screen achievements, Sage has navigated career hardship with steadfastness and grace after comments on a third-party podcast protesting the COVID-19 vaccine mandate led to a suspension from ESPN in 2021.
	Refusing to stay on the bench, Sage launched a lawsuit against ESPN in 2022, with both parties reaching a settlement in August 2023.
	In our discussion, we discuss Sage's ability to stand firm in her beliefs even when faced with criticism, the challenges of being a working mom in a demanding industry, freedom of speech, the responsibilities of public figures, and the balance between personal beliefs and professional duties.
	Join us as we delve into the life of Sage Steel, understanding the person behind the persona and the
	convictions that drive her.
	Sage Steel, thanks so much for joining us.
	Really appreciate it.
	I can't believe we're finally doing this, Ben.
	Hi, thanks for having me.
	Hi, absolutely.
	Okay, so I believe last time we talked was before you left ESPN, actually.
	The first time we talked was sort of behind the scenes when ESPN was coming after you for your stance on COVID and the vaccine debate.
	But I want to go like all the way back.
	So let's start from the very beginning, from your childhood, because obviously you're a unique brand, you have a unique political point of view and a unique story.
	So where did your politics come from?
	Where did sort of your view of life come from?
	From doing my homework and reading and watching and listening.
	And that's really a very honest answer.
	It's funny.
	I can, I talked to my parents about this recently, 1988.
	I was a junior in high school.
	So that 88 election, I remember being like a government or civics class in high school and talking about the election and the candidates and coming home and saying, mom and dad, what do you think?
	Who are you voting for?
	At the dinner table, they both looked at me and they're like, none of your business.
	Like, really?
	I just want to talk about it.
	They go, no, no, no.
	It's important, but we don't want our opinions to influence you.
	You go do your homework.
	You go figure things out.
	Figure out why you believe it, not just because mom and dad say something.
	And I thought that, in hindsight, That was brilliant.
	And so I really came to these opinions and conclusions on my own.
	And I'm proud of that.
	People say, oh, because your dad was military.
	My dad, West Point, 23 year army career, retired colonel.
	Oh, that's why.
	And it's like, you guys are so close minded.
	It isn't quite that simple for most people, and I'm glad it's not.
	So when you were growing up, your dad was active duty military.
	Were you stationed all over the place or were you in one particular spot?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, okay, by the time I was 11, I'd lived in four different countries, only spoke English.
	The rest was like, I could count to 10 in like five languages, and now it's down to just one, again, English.
	But yeah, so when people say, where are you from?
	I honestly don't have an answer.
	Panama, ready?
	Panama, back to West Point where my dad went to school, and he went back to coach, Indianapolis, California, Greece, Belgium, Colorado, Indiana, then college, and then 100 different more places and TV.
	So I don't have a home, although it will soon be Florida, because I'm smart, like you.
	Everybody just goes to Florida.
	Exactly.
	So how did you get into the sporting world?
	Yeah, I mean, honestly, it was a love of sports that my dad gave me.
	He was a college athlete.
	He played football.
	Actually, can I brag?
	First black man to play varsity football ever at West Point.
	He broke the color barrier.
	He made history.
	And I didn't know about that until I was much older when I was becoming a sportscaster.
	I'm like, Dad, do you think you could have told me that?
	It's kind of a big deal.
	Coaches, like people who coached him, like Bill Parcells at Army or Bob Knight was there.
	They're the ones that told me about my dad's greatness there.
	But anyway, my love came from Having my dad as my hero and wanting to spend time with him.
	And so we would, when we lived in Belgium in particular, Greece and Belgium, there were no like English speaking TV stations.
	So we had family members who would send VHS tapes of games across the ocean for us to watch and for me to break down.
	I was 11 when I told him that I wanted to be a sportscaster.
	And I was like, weirdly shy, super shy.
	And he's like, uh, mom and dad are like, okay, that means you're probably going to have to Get over that and talk if you want to be on TV.
	And now they're like, would you stop talking?
	But it began just wanting to spend time around my father.
	And I honestly felt from a young age, Ben, honestly, I could feel that sports brought people together, whether you're just going to my high school track meet, you know, and my parents and grandparents, if they were visiting, would come.
	Or if you're going to Giants Stadium and there's 80,000 people on a Sunday where nothing matters but the Giants winning, like your politics, your race, your gender, your socioeconomic status, nothing else matters for those three hours.
	And I felt that, and I'm like, I want to be a part of this.
	This is a happy place.
	And so, you've mentioned your dad a bunch here, and it sounds like you're incredibly close to your parents still.
	So, what do you think are the big lessons that you had instilled on you from your dad and from your mom?
	Oh, so many.
	This October, they'll be married 53 years, and that's where it starts.
	You know, commitment to each other, love, and the sanctity of marriage.
	And listen, frankly, I've been through a different experience, and I was married for 20 years, and I'm no longer.
	I'm divorced, and I have a good relationship with my ex-husband, and I have three awesome kids.
	And that's super important, right?
	What they taught me—by the way, the adversity, moving all over the world with an Army salary, like nothing.
	They bought their first house in 1984 in the States in Colorado Springs.
	The interest rates were 16.5% on an Army salary with three kids.
	Like, there was no money, but we never knew that or felt that.
	There's a story that has been pinned to my ex profile for years, and it will always remain there because it tells the story of my family.
	And I would love it if people would take a look because for all those people who like to stereotype and put you in little boxes, I mean, they're my why.
	My parents got married in 1971, off the civil rights era.
	My dad's black, my mom's white, Irish-Italian.
	Her parents disowned her because she was marrying a black man.
	And what my parents chose to do, how they chose to handle it, and what my dad did to handle that—being protective of his wife and upset at his new in-laws—was a beautiful thing in that lesson that I took, which stems from the cadet prayer.
	My dad had us memorize this as kids.
	It was so annoying, but, help us to choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong, and to never be content with a half-truth when the whole can be one.
	We memorized it as kids.
	It was super annoying.
	How much, I mean, that applies beautifully to everything today, doesn't it?
	The harder right, and not settle for something that's not true.
	It has guided me through everything in my life, personally and professionally, and it's because of the courage my mom and dad had.
	That's an amazing thing.
	So you're growing up, you're a military kid, and then you end up going to college.
	You've always wanted to go into sports casting.
	So how did you actually first break into the industry?
	It's not an easy industry to break into, and particularly to end up at a place like ESPN.
	Well, the goal was always ESPN.
	That was my dream.
	And I'd say that I went to most of my classes when I was at Indiana University, but if I didn't, I was definitely up.
	You know, remember when SportsCenter used to run, like, all morning, all afternoon until, like, primetime again, back in the day when everything wasn't, you know, digital?
	I just knew that that was always my dream because that was the pinnacle, the worldwide leader in sports.
	And this is probably 1990-91 when I was going to college.
	But I knew it was going to take a long time to get there.
	And I had like four internships during and after college.
	This is back in the day when it's, you know, VHS or beta tapes and you're buying a stack of 12 from Walmart and dubbing them down and sending them snail mail and begging people.
	To give you a shot and praying that your tape was one that would stand out in the stack of 60 on their desk and you'd have to make a phone call, you know, to say, Hey, my name is Sage.
	There was no email, you know?
	So, um, I, I was given a shot by a mentor who knew somebody who knew somebody at my first TV job, which was not sports.
	It was news reporting and producing and editing and writing and shooting all of it.
	And then my first, that was in South Bend, Indiana, the CVS affiliate in 1995.
	And then my first sports job was actually in Indianapolis.
	And that's where it began.
	And I knew the whole time, what will it take to get to ESPN?
	I had a lot of work to do.
	Oh my gosh, I still do.
	And I always talk too fast.
	My hair was always different.
	And a lot of bosses pointed that out and didn't like it.
	I mean, if you think back to the 90s and early 2000s, I mean, everybody had the anchor bob, you know, as a woman.
	And I mean, I was told for years, like, I was the only woman on a national level once I got to ESPN who just kept her natural hair.
	And now I'm like, all you curly girls, you're welcome.
	You don't know what I had to do.
	But it was, it was South Bend, Indianapolis, and then to Tampa.
	And, you know, covered all the NFL teams in both cities and NBA teams there and in Orlando and NHL and baseball.
	And then to the DC Baltimore area where I was there for six years at Comcast Sportsnet, a regional network.
	And actually Ben got the offer for ESPN after three years and turned it down, which was a major controversy in my family, just because they were like, what are you doing?
	And at the end of the day, it's kind of a long story, but it just went back to family first.
	I had a 20-month-old at home, and I was pregnant with number two, about to pop when I got the offer.
	I knew I wanted more kids, and I knew that ESPN was a difficult place.
	This is back in the mid-2005-ish, 2004-2005, a different place when you're a young mother trying to expand your family.
	Hosted to our live national TV show.
	By the way, we write everything at ESPN.
	We.
	I'm not there.
	They.
	No one writes stuff.
	Like, it's a lot of hard work and grinding.
	And I knew that if I put my family second at that time, that I would always regret it.
	So it's probably one of my more proud moments for looking at the big picture, even though this little girl's dream was right there.
	ESPN finally thought I was good enough.
	And I turned it down and took a chance.
	And three years later, they called back.
	So how was it working as a woman in this world?
	Because obviously there's a lot of controversy, especially at this time in the 80s, early 90s, about women being in sort of the sporting world.
	I remember there were a lot of conference about women's locker room and this sort of stuff.
	How did any of that impact you?
	I think I was just—it was a different era when I began, and we just knew what we were getting into.
	We didn't know any different, that we'd be the only woman in a locker room.
	And I always was, whether it was NBA or NFL.
	I think when I got to Tampa, there was actually one other woman, Chris Field.
	She was at the Fox affiliate in Tampa, and I was at the ABC.
	And when I saw her, I was like, Hi, can we be best friends, you know?
	Because no one else really knew what it was like back then.
	Certainly there were some stories on the national level, but it just was, you know, what it did for me was it made me better.
	Because when you're in the, you know, you call it the media scrum, and it's an NFL Media Wednesday, and you've got, you know, 20 reporters, you know, gathering around Shannon Sharp or Ray Lewis or whoever it was.
	And, you know, Warren Sapp—difficult people like Warren Sapp—and you have to, like, you know, you're in there, you're trying to get your mic in, and all these big, fat, smelly male reporters.
	And I was like, okay, that's helpful, number one.
	But number two, because it was all male voices, I knew that when I spoke it would sound different and it would maybe stop some people and so what came out of my mouth better be damn good.
	So I was like extra prepared because I knew that I was different and I would be judged differently.
	Were there uncomfortable moments and awkward moments and, you know, athletes doing stupid things on purpose in the locker room?
	Absolutely.
	But I also, I don't know, I grew up with brothers and a tomboy and had all guy friends, so I was kind of used to some of that mentality.
	And I was like, you're an idiot.
	Whatever.
	Let me know when you're dressed so I can ask this question.
	I'm going to get out of here.
	My attitude was just chill about it.
	Things have evolved and it's so much better now.
	But I also think that sometimes people look for issues and there aren't always issues, you know?
	So, which sports, when you were first starting out, obviously football because of your dad was a big one, which were the sports that you liked and knew and which were the ones that you didn't know and how did you get to become an expert in the sports that you didn't know?
	Well, I don't know that I have ever been an expert in any of them, but I always said you have to know a little about a lot of things, especially when you're at ESPN and you're covering everything on SportsCenter.
	Football, NFL football, was always my favorite.
	That's what we watched when we were overseas, like I described earlier, either on tape delay by like a week or VHS tapes from America that were shipped over.
	And because my dad played college football, actually was drafted by the Detroit Lions, even though Back then, in 1970, there's no way anybody from a service academy could continue on to play at the professional level.
	It's different now.
	But, you know, that's how good he was, because I got to keep bragging about him for the rest of my life.
	And so when he knew I wanted to be a sportscaster, he's like, OK, well, then you got to know everything.
	And so I would memorize the rosters, the numbers on the jersey, the names, the position, the
	college, like all of it.
	And I took pride in that.
	And so NFL was my first true love.
	And then after that, it was actually college basketball because I was a Hoosier and I went
	to Indiana.
	I grew up as a Duke fan, though.
	My dad went to college with Coach K at West Point.
	They were classmates, and so I grew up a Duke fan, and now I'm friends with, you know, Grant Hill and some of those guys, and we still talk trash to each other.
	I'm like, ew, Duke, when back in the day I was in love with all of them.
	So it really started with football and basketball.
	As far as like other sports I did not know, NHL and Major League Baseball.
	It's just not, especially hockey, like that wasn't a thing, especially overseas.
	And then I think, you know, it was just more of a niche sport in the 80s for sure.
	It's one thing to have watched the 1980 gold medal winning team, and that was awesome and historical, but it's another thing to cover NHL.
	It kind of happened organically.
	I remember going to my first NHL anything, and it was a practice.
	It was actually like media day.
	1998 Tampa Bay Lightning.
	And I remember I'd been in Tampa for like a week and they're like, you got to go over.
	And I'm like, oh my gosh, I've been working on Buccaneers training camp and memorizing all that.
	And so I was scared to death.
	And I walked in and the coach's name was Jacques Demare and the goalie was Darren Pupa.
	And I sat down and I had questions that I had like crammed on the night before.
	But I started off and I just said, listen, can I be honest with you?
	I've never covered I don't know anything about it, but I really want to learn.
	So forgive me if I sound like an idiot, but I'd love it if you could help me out and anything that you can share with me.
	It was just like a spur-of-the-moment idea that I thought, just be honest.
	It helped me so much.
	That team, those coaches, those players put their arm around me, you know, figuratively and were like, I got you.
	And I think they respected the fact that I owned it and didn't try to sound smart because I wasn't in this.
	I did it in baseball at times too.
	The baseball manager, Larry Rothschild, he wasn't quite as receptive to that.
	Baseball is a very different sport.
	I always say NHL athletes are the best professional athletes to deal with.
	The most professional, the most kind, genuine, welcoming, they're the best.
	Baseball's the toughest.
	So that was a little bit tougher, but I found some players and some PR people down when I was covering the Tampa Bay Devil Rays at the time who really helped me out.
	And that's what I share with young women and men who are getting in the industry.
	Don't try to sound smart, because they're going to see right through you.
	Do your homework, but own it.
	And that human element, I think, will help you.
	We'll get some more on this in just a moment.
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	So you mentioned the various sports and how it was to cover the players.
	So who are the best players to cover in various sports and who are the worst people to cover, whether they're executives, managers, or players?
	Oh, it really depends.
	I mean, there's some coaches that, you know, when the mic's on and they have to do whatever and, you know, the media, some of the questions are just god-awful.
	And I mean, I always thought that.
	Sometimes it's like I just put my head down like, you know, and then they wonder why they hate us, because you ask stupid questions.
	So I also had a lot of conversations about that with players and coaches, like, you know, sorry about that.
	Or if I screwed up, like, listen, this is how I meant to say it.
	I'll be better next time.
	Uh, certain players were incredible and saw my efforts, you know, even if it wasn't perfect, and were really, really awesome.
	And that would mean—that would really pay off at the end.
	Like, you—I always hosted, um, in Baltimore, I hosted Raven's Postgame Live, and it was a two-hour live show, and no one was there getting me guests.
	I had one producer helping me sometimes, and for the most part, I'd get a guest, I'd beg him, I'd go in the locker room, I'd beg him, and he'd be like, uh, we just lost, really, Sage?
	And I'm like, listen, You know, I was like, listen, I did this and I reported this last time, and he's like, okay, you're right.
	I'll be right in.
	But those relationships helped in the tough times with losses, you know?
	And I'd be like, dude, you can't just talk when you score three touchdowns.
	How about that fumble?
	You're going to not be a man now, and that would work.
	And they'd come sit, and those relationships helped me tremendously.
	And with the coaches, too.
	Overall, I think, again, baseball was the toughest as far as getting the human element out of the athletes and the managers.
	And they also have 162 games a year to play.
	They're exhausted and they're over us being in their face every day.
	I think it can be equally tough, depending on the player or coach, or equally awesome.
	So, okay, I'm going to ask you, what was like the worst war story from covering all these various sports?
	I don't know if this is a horror story, but something that, gosh, the timing, I'm lucky there wasn't anything called going viral back then.
	But Brian Billick was the Ravens' head coach, and this was my fifth and ended up being my final season covering the team.
	And they had just lost, or no, no, no, they barely beat the 0-11 Houston Texans, like, on a last-second field goal.
	It was brutal.
	Ravens was supposed to go to the playoffs, and they almost lost to a winless team.
	And again, doing post-game live, and I always got the head coach, which was always Brian Billick when I was there.
	And so he came in and sat down live, and I could tell he was a little tight.
	And the room's this big, so like we're shoulder-to-shoulder.
	And, you know, I was always kind of like really casual.
	And I was like, gosh, coach, seemed like nobody really wanted to win that game, but you pulled it out, talk about the field, whatever.
	And he looked at me, and he Listen to everything that any of the media said, like all week long he would get notes and clips, his wife would even tell him things.
	Earlier that week I had been very critical of the quarterback because he'd been playing bad football for a couple of years and he was their first round draft pick.
	Brian's the one that wanted him.
	The organization at the time did not.
	And I just said on the radio that week, listen, if I hear one more thing about how great Kyle Bowler is, I'm going to vomit.
	This is ridiculous.
	We all have a job.
	And I think he's a great kid and has a ton of potential.
	But when the lights come on, If I can't do my job, I'm not going to have a job in TV.
	It's the same thing for a quarterback.
	And by the way, I love Kyle Bowler now.
	Nothing to do with him as a human, but the way he was playing, and he would admit that now too.
	Well, Brian heard that on the radio and waited till we were live on TV.
	And he's like, yeah, we pulled out that win.
	It takes character, something that you don't know anything about.
	And I was very pregnant, and I was like, okay.
	And I looked at the camera, and we're live, and I said, for those of you who are wondering about what Coach is speaking of, and I recapped the little thing back and forth, and he's like, you don't know what it takes.
	You're not there at one in the morning, da-da-da-da, when I'm doing it.
	And I go, you don't know what this takes.
	And I, listen, Ben, I was like nine months pregnant.
	hormones and I put my producers like rap rap and I was like, oh and I took my earpiece out and we were
	It was an all-out brawl not like verbal brawl And I just thought, and he goes, and he's like, well, you know, I work so hard.
	And I go, that's part of your job.
	You make three million bucks a year.
	Like, what?
	You want sympathy here?
	In hindsight, I should never have taken the bait.
	I should have walked away at some point.
	But like, he was a tough coach for all those years.
	Like, he was brutal.
	He did not like the media.
	And I don't know that he loved women at that time being, you know, asking those questions.
	I asked good questions because I did my homework.
	And so, it had been five years.
	I think we were tired of each other and it all came out on live TV.
	Again, thank goodness the internet wasn't what it is now.
	Or maybe, maybe it would have, I don't know, maybe it would have gotten me some huge whatever because I challenged somebody.
	I should have not taken it that far.
	He later apologized in his own way for coming at me, and I'd seen him three times during that week prior to the game after I said what I said, and he could have said it in person, but he waited till we were live, and I was like, oh no, I'm done.
	So that was probably not the most professional thing, but you know what?
	There was also respect afterwards.
	To this day, that was in 2005, to this day when I go to Baltimore, I have people stop me in airports, at restaurants, firefighters, they're like, That was the best thing ever!
	Thank you!
	And I'm like, that was 20 years ago and they still remember me and the coach fighting on live TV.
	Oh my God.
	So how was it working at ESPN?
	So you mentioned that it's a lot of hours that you're writing everything that you do once you're actually an anchor on the network.
	There have been a lot of books that have come out about ESPN, about the early days and the wild culture that was there.
	By the time you were there, was it sort of more state incorporated or was it still a pretty wild place?
	I think it was definitely more corporate.
	I got there in 2007.
	Listen, there were some moments and some incidents that I...
	I haven't talked about yet.
	Listen, I just started writing a book.
	It's a hell of a process.
	It's so hard.
	You need to, like, I need advice.
	It's so difficult.
	Anyway, there's certain things I'm considering sharing in there because there are moments that I wish I had spoken up about, but at the time I was scared and I was afraid of being blackballed.
	And then, you know, I could have brought it up much later, but I don't really go for that whole, you know, me too, 20 years later vibe.
	There were moments, but 98% of the time, it was awesome.
	And listen, I was so focused.
	When I got there, my kids were 11 months old, 2, and 4.
	And so I'm just trying to stay alive at home and be a good mom and be present.
	They always were and always will be my number one priority.
	I've made every professional decision with them in mind, based on them.
	And then I was trying to survive on air, too, because it was so hard, and there's nothing, especially back then, that really could prepare you for going there from, you know, regional was better than local, right?
	Because there were longer shows, and I had a lot more, a much bigger job and workload at regional versus local, because the shows were 30 or 60 minutes long, versus local sports, you get like three minutes, you know?
	But I still wasn't prepared, and I Struggled for years and years to find my way, and certainly with confidence.
	I think I sucked for a long time and finally got mad at myself for allowing the opinions of others to get in my head and affect my performance.
	It took me getting mad at myself to really find myself on air.
	I mean, you're really a self-starter and you're very self-critical.
	And I think that that's obviously one aspect of your success is that when you see that you've done something that you wish you had done better, instead of sort of blaming external forces, it seems like you internalize and you go back to the drawing board and say, okay, what could I have changed?
	In my own career, that's the piece of advice that I give very often to young people who say, I want to do what you do.
	And my answer is, well, you have to go through the paces a lot.
	And if you fail, you have to assume that it's you and you have to fix what you're doing.
	I assume that it's the same sort of thing for you.
	Yes, it is.
	Although I took that too far, and I don't know if you can relate to that as well, where, you know, my last job at ESPN was SportsCenter, noon Eastern, 12 to 2, and two hours of live TV every day is a lot, and there's so many moving parts.
	The studio is like 20,000 square feet, and we're walking and talking and highlights and interviews, and it is a grind, and it takes every ounce of energy in you, and I loved that.
	But I could have, you know, A great show and mispronounce one name.
	And so that, you know, that two seconds out of two hours is what I would go home thinking about.
	And I think I beat myself up so much for so long.
	I don't know that I changed that about myself because it did make me better and stronger.
	And I've always just, I was raised with Humility.
	And maybe that's the military part.
	Maybe it's what my parents went through.
	But I've always been very humble.
	I think you can be humble and kind and confident.
	And it just took me a long time to put all those together because I was humble to the point where I think it did hurt me and so self-deprecating.
	And then I was just such a pleaser and I wanted all my producers and teammates to like me.
	And but then you get taken advantage of too.
	So what's that line between being that person who just let people kind of push you around and being a stereotypical diva of which there are a few over at the Worldwide Leader in Sports and you know what?
	Everywhere in our industry.
	It's not people rip on just ESPN, it is everywhere.
	But when you witness that and people who are, you know, the smiles on TV but once that light goes off, Watch how they treat the kid running the teleprompter.
	Let's truly be kind at all times.
	And I know that throughout my career, that's something I can be proud of, right?
	Is that I always treated people well, even if at the end when they didn't like me because of my opinions.
	No one really has assassinated my character, right?
	Just my opinions.
	And I think that I go back to my parents with that, but I probably was too hard on myself for a long time and still am working on it.
	So, and like every other guy my age, I grew up obviously watching ESPN all the time, like, you know, day to night.
	I'd get up early in the morning before school so I could watch SportsCenter because there wasn't really this sort of internet prevalence of sports in the same way, and so if you wanted to see the highlights, that's what you did.
	You got up at 6 a.m.
	and you went and you watched SportsCenter and then I would leave for school like 7 a.m.
	so you had to get up early if you actually wanted to know what was going on in the sports world.
	And then there came a point where, and I have to say it's affected my overall
	sort of viewership of sports, unfortunately, where the thing that you were talking about,
	which is that sports was a uniting factor, that you could go to a dinner party with literally anybody.
	You could go to a party with people you didn't even know and you could just talk about sports
	and it was a totally safe space where nobody was gonna get offended.
	It was gonna be just kind of a fun thing to do.
	And it made a turn and there came a point where my viewership of ESPN went down to basically zero
	and I started calling it on the air MSNBC with footballs because it got so overtly political
	It's probably the same period where I took my Sports Illustrated subscription and threw it in the trash.
	I'd been subscribed to Sports Illustrated since I was like 13 or 14 years old.
	When do you think that happened?
	Why do you think that happened?
	Where did the sporting world lose its way and decide that politics had to become such a part of the coverage?
	Yeah, it's a great question.
	I've thought a lot about it, obviously, as I went through some controversies there and then ultimately left.
	Actually, I think there were a couple of turns.
	I started there in 2007, and then so that was election time in 2008 leading up to Barack
	Obama being elected. And I think, you know, it was kind of a free for all.
	Anybody could say whatever they wanted, which was 99.9% of the time positive because it was Obama.
	Everybody loved Barack Obama, certainly in the media and certainly at ESPN.
	So it was like, sure, you could say what you want and post all the pictures you want with him.
	If you saw him at an NCAA tournament game or something, it was like, sure, go ahead.
	Love fest. 2016.
	Huge turn when Trump was running and then when he won.
	I remember, Ben, being on Twitter and watching the posts from my bosses, executives, executives, making huge decisions for ESPN, tweeting about Donald Trump winning.
	And I remember being blown away, like, is this okay that our bosses are doing it?
	And it just was allowed to stay.
	And then, yeah, it was, you know, gloves off.
	Everybody said whatever they wanted, especially, you know, not just Trump winning, but Hillary losing, right?
	I think the combination of those two personalities and what happened was nuts.
	You know, our president at the time, John Skipper, I mean, he's talked about this, and he really agreed with everything that Trump, anti-Trump, right, and everything against him.
	And so he was kind of fine with people spouting off, and like when Jemele Hill said what she said, I mean, he even told me, he's like, well, she's right.
	And I'm like, wait, But we're not, we're supposed to have a no politics policy.
	So this is in 2017.
	And I'm like, but wait, if just because you agree with her, does that mean it's okay for her to say this?
	Because at the end of the day, I thought like we all have opinions, but we're keeping them to ourselves.
	And that was a tough thing.
	And there were two incidents with Jamal and Donald Trump.
	Um, people think that she got suspended for, um, for the Trump comments and she did not.
	there was a conversation, she ended up getting suspended for her comments about what was
	happening with the NFL and advertising and etc. And of course, with the ESPN's relationship
	with the NFL, there's, you know, dollars affected there.
	That's the ultimate reason why she was suspended, not because of the Trump comments, which is
	quite interesting when you look later at what happened. So then when Jimmy Pataro came in as the
	new president, he was like, listen, this is enough with the politics. He got it, you
	know, this is divisive and this is not helping our bottom line. And I always said to
	him and others, and even John Skipper, like, remember when Michael Jordan said in the 80s,
	Republicans buy sneakers I mean, it's just so basic.
	Like, any business, I don't care if you're a television network or if you're like a local hardware store, I think we want money from everybody, not just people that we align with.
	Like, why draw that line?
	It's just bad for business and What we said earlier, this is the place where people come to escape that crap.
	MSNBC and Fox News and CNN, all of them, fine.
	But you come here and it's sport.
	And they allowed that to happen.
	So Jimmy tried to fix that and was doing a really, really, really good job.
	I thought it was awesome.
	And I personally thanked him for that because he felt the same way as far as it doesn't belong in sports.
	And then COVID hit, and then George Floyd, and the rest is history.
	And they could not put that genie back in the bottle.
	There's no way.
	I think many of them wanted to.
	I think many executives didn't want it to be that way.
	But then if you have a conversation even with somebody about it, Then you're racist, you're sexist, you're fill-in-the-blank.
	And I think there was a lot of fear, not just at ESPN.
	Look at every corporation around this country, it seems, right?
	With the conversations, the advertising, marketing decisions, the DEI stuff.
	Everybody's been running in fear, not just ESPN.
	And it's unfortunate to me because I truly believe in my heart that the people making decisions didn't believe that it should be that way.
	Then again, it was bigger than ESPN.
	This is Disney, and that's a whole other story.
	We'll get to more on this in a moment.
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	When I go back and I think about when this sort of stuff broke into the sporting world, it seems to me that it was actually even earlier than Trump.
	Because I remember when Caitlyn Jenner came out as Caitlyn Jenner as opposed to Bruce Jenner, which was a couple of years before that.
	That was covered wall to wall on ESPN.
	Remember at the ESPYs?
	Yes.
	When she won that award.
	I remember being there and looking around and like, are we clapping?
	What are we doing?
	It was very confusing.
	It wasn't, it was just the beginning, it feels like, at least with that Right, exactly.
	And I remember that they put Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn Jenner, on the cover of Sports Illustrated.
	And I remember that was the day that I called and I said, I am not going to subscribe to your magazine anymore.
	Bruce Jenner has not been athletically relevant since before I was born.
	I'm not sure why I'm being spoon-fed stories about his gender confusion.
	That's odd to me.
	And I remember canceling my subscription over that.
	And same sort of general period of time, you saw the uptick in a lot of the racialized coverage of sports, which was Strange, because obviously race and sports have a really deep and disturbing and fascinating history, going all the way back to the color line in major league sports and all of that.
	By the time you hit the mid-2000s, the idea that there is a massive amount of racism that is predominant across the sporting leagues That's a very hard proposition to support.
	By the time you hit 2013, 2014, where you have virtually every major sporting league with explicit rules, I mean, the NFL has the Rooney Rule by this point, explicit rules that are attempting to drive more racial diversity in sports, or where a huge percentage of the players of a particular sport are people of color, black or hispanic, depending on what
	sport you're talking about.
	By that point, it seems like why is this the front and center issue?
	And yet when, for example, the Michael Brown shooting happens, suddenly ESPN devotes almost
	wall-to-wall coverage to the question of how much racism there still is in sport.
	And you have people who are covering sports talking about supposed disparate treatment of black Americans by the police.
	And it felt like an incredibly one-sided conversation at ESPN.
	You were on the inside over there.
	I didn't see any sort of dissenting opinions that were hitting the air at all on any of this.
	And it seemed like the politics were just flowing incredibly freely from about 2013, 2014, and on.
	Yeah, no, I totally agree.
	And I think, well, I know that there were many people like me who didn't think it was the best thing.
	Like, why are we doing this?
	But we also spoke in whispers or text messages.
	We knew better than to say that out loud.
	You know, I mean, it was even little things like during the NCAA tournament, Andy Katz, who's an incredible reporter, he ended up being laid off by ESPN.
	And I love that man.
	He's a brilliant genius and did a great job.
	In particular, also every year when he would go to the White House and have Barack Obama fill out the bracket.
	I don't know if you remember watching that.
	And it was this whole big thing and it was promoted and it was huge.
	And it made sense because the president at the time was, he's a huge basketball fan, right?
	We've seen him play.
	And so it made sense.
	It was fun.
	Donald Trump took office and I'm like, wait, he likes sports too.
	He actually has had a pretty big hand in sports throughout his life in many big ways.
	And why, why are we not doing that now?
	Like what, what is this?
	And so it was little things like that, that you go.
	What's the difference here?
	He's still the Commander-in-Chief, and if nothing else, it's a good soundbite.
	There were many, many things, many conversations, but I feel like it did happen gradually around the time that you're saying.
	I do feel this as well.
	Most athletes that I've spoken to, they don't talk about this stuff.
	They don't care because look at their locker rooms.
	There's such a diverse place.
	If anything, more black athletes than any other race, especially basketball and in the NFL.
	I don't know the number specifically in the NFL, but pretty sure it's more than 50% are African American.
	So Um, that's where it's like, I watched those guys.
	They just loved each other and they're friends and they just want to freaking win.
	You know, it wasn't about the white guy over here, the black guy over here.
	Um, so that's where it was disturbing to me.
	Whereas the media.
	The media, ESPN, we tried to create that and it was very successful.
	And then it just took off, right?
	And especially with Trump and some of Trump's comments that certainly weren't helpful at times.
	But then, it leads up to now where I believe there's just too much money to leave on the table if you don't keep this racist thing going where everybody wants to say he's racist, she's racist, and even if you just want to have a conversation.
	So I don't feel like the athletes are like that as much.
	I think it's the quote-unquote adults in the room who have created it.
	And this one felt like the perverse incentive structure created by the media actually pushed
	Yes.
	many athletes into speaking on topics that they really had no idea what the hell they
	were talking about.
	Where it was like the media would demand of an athlete, what's your view on police treatment
	of black Americans?
	And the athlete hasn't thought about that.
	The athlete, in many of these cases, is extremely rich and is not dealing with the police under
	these particular circumstances.
	But now if you don't say the thing that the media want to hear from you, then they will rip you up.
	And that also happens to be true in other areas of politics.
	If you don't come out and talk about the wonders of Pride Night and they stick a microphone in your face, you say, listen, that's not for me.
	Suddenly you're at risk of maybe being suspended by your team.
	And so there's this perverse incentive structure where people who were apolitical and broadly popular have now become pretty overtly political,
	and I think in many ways a lot more polarizing and unpopular.
	The name that comes to mind here for me, obviously, is LeBron James.
	When LeBron started, he was obviously highly, I mean, the most highly-tatted prospect
	in the history of the NBA.
	Obviously incredibly popular, unbelievable basketball player,
	either the first or the second greatest player of all time, depending on who you go to.
	But uncontroversially amazing at his job.
	And then he got very political very quickly, and then he became a meme.
	I mean, for the right, it was, okay, he's only read one page of Malcolm X,
	and he's sitting there with the first page open of every book.
	And for the left, it was, look at this hero speaking out on political matters.
	And that's not good for sport.
	It's pretty terrible for sport, actually.
	I think so, too.
	You know, and then you get into what Laura said on Fox News about shut up and dribble.
	And I do think that there's a, Laura Ingram, I think that there's a happy medium
	because I love when athletes take the time to educate themselves on things
	outside of what they do of sports.
	I do the same thing.
	I mean, I was a sportscaster, but I took time to educate myself on other things.
	The key word is educate.
	And quite often, unfortunately, when certain athletes speak out,
	you can tell that they haven't truly educated themselves on the facts.
	And you gotta know the facts before you have an opinion.
	And I think a couple of times, there's probably a few things that LeBron would like to take back.
	I mean, you can look at the facts around Breonna Taylor, and many, many athletes got that wrong.
	But then there's this whole movement and hashtags and t-shirts.
	It's like, guys, get the facts straight first.
	And then if you want to have that opinion, great.
	But you don't know what you're talking about.
	Michael Brown is also a great example.
	I also feel like because people, to your point, were It was shoved down their throats.
	Started to push back a little bit.
	You look at what happened in Los Angeles with the Dodgers and what was the organization that they were trying to come celebrate?
	It was like on Pride Night, but it was like the Perpetual Sisters of— Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.
	Yes, yes.
	Perpetual sisters, yes.
	And it's basically this LGBTQ plus group, but that they would wear Catholic gear and like, you know, I'm Catholic and it's like definitely felt like they were mocking Catholics.
	And what's the why behind that?
	So you had Clayton Kershaw stand up and say, what are we doing?
	This isn't cool.
	Reverse that.
	If this is You know, how about a group that is just going to make fun of and mock Muslims or Jews?
	Would that have been allowed to be celebrated on Pride night?
	I hope not.
	So why is it okay on this side?
	And Clayton Kershaw stood up and they went back and forth and made some changes.
	NHL players, I think with the San Jose Sharks and other teams.
	And then with the Tampa Bay Rays, with being forced to put the Pride patches on their jersey.
	And some of these players are like, I'm not doing it.
	And that does not mean that I'm against that community or transphobic or any of those things.
	It just means that, like, this is my job.
	You don't know what I do in my private time and what I give back to, and so don't judge me, but why are you forcing this down our throats?
	I've liked that athletes have begun to stand up with those things a little bit.
	It can't go just one way, right?
	So we're going to pick and choose.
	Oh, this group is worth standing up for and putting a patch on?
	Well, what about this one?
	Oh, well, you're going to offend them.
	Keep it out.
	Let us remain together and stop trying to divide.
	But it is, I think, crucial for anyone speaking out, especially when you have a platform, you know, like a LeBron.
	Just really, really know the facts.
	And that depends on what you read and who you listen to as well.
	And that's not always an easy thing.
	So, obviously, you violate a lot of intersectional sanctities.
	You're a black woman, which means that you have two of the intersectional checkmarks, but you don't necessarily mirror everything that the intersectionality crowd would want you to say.
	How much pressure have you gotten, you know, both inside ESPN and then also just from the outside world, to sort of repeat slogans that people think you should be saying based on your identity?
	Yeah, I mean, pressure meaning being cancelled for not being black enough?
	Yeah.
	But, you know, I think one of the biggest things that has made me so divisive and disliked in at least parts, not all for sure, but parts of the black community is my conversation about being biracial.
	So if I'm asked and if I am filling out a census, as Barbara Walters once pointed out to me, like I'm going to check black and white.
	You know, my dad's black, my mom is white, and I'm so proud of both.
	And for some reason that's controversial.
	And I just was always confused by that.
	And, like, why?
	Isn't my family the actual, like, perfect definition of diversity and tolerance and acceptance and inclusion?
	And again, what my parents fought through at the beginning for my dad not being accepted by my mom's family, and they fought through it, and then everybody eventually, years later, came together, and it was a beautiful melting pot, the Steele-O'Neill family.
	Like, why is it bad that I love my mom as much as my dad and want to celebrate her as well?
	And when I was crushed for that a few times, I got ticked off.
	I'm like, enough.
	This is total BS and it's actually complete hypocrisy.
	The opposite of what we are preaching of diversity and tolerance and acceptance.
	That's why DEI cracks me up.
	Because they pick and choose.
	Who is allowed to be diverse with their thoughts and their actions and the way that they vote.
	That's probably the biggest thing that's gotten me, quote unquote, trouble.
	And I'm like, go for it.
	You know, it wasn't trying to be funny.
	I think I said this once when I, the last time I was on The View, where it got controversial 10 years ago, but I've said it many times and I always will.
	Pretty sure my white mom was there the day I was born.
	And I believe that she is as important in me being who I am as my black father.
	It's not a race thing.
	So when people mock those who say, well, I don't see color, and they get mad at that.
	Of course we see it.
	Stop being an idiot.
	Like, we're not being literal with this.
	It's just, I don't lead with color.
	I lead with who you are as a human being, how you treat me, how you treat my family, how I see you treating others who maybe don't have as big of a job as you, right?
	Like, that's what it should be.
	Yes.
	Do I fit in other boxes as far as who I vote for?
	I mean, I didn't know that people of a certain color had to vote a certain way.
	Are we not smart enough to think for ourselves?
	Like, I just know I'll throw all that out in the trash and I'll debate anybody.
	Not about my reasons for voting for anybody.
	It's none of your business.
	It's just my right.
	And when you put me in a box because I'm a woman of color, those two things, and in the media, I guess, like then that is you actually being racist and sexist and closed minded.
	So bring it.
	They'll lose that argument every time.
	It's just they don't get called out on it nearly enough.
	So I mentioned at the very top of the show that you and I, I think, first spoke, it was probably 2021.
	I think it was about the time that you were suspended from ESPN for comments.
	No, it was before that.
	Remember, it was probably, I think it was like 20, probably 2020.
	And you were like, listen, it was so great.
	Do you remember this conversation?
	I was so grateful.
	I remember where I was.
	You're like, listen, it's not a matter of if you get canceled, Sage, it's when.
	And you need to be ready because it's coming your way.
	And so I've thought about that so many times because then it kind of kept building and building the more I got tired of being beaten up and put, you know, like told what to say and what to do.
	And I kept thinking, Ben, it's coming.
	I feel it coming.
	And then it happened.
	So thank you for getting me ready.
	Yeah, no, I mean, I've had that talk with a few people across the years.
	And you could see it coming with you.
	The pressure was ratcheting up on you, obviously.
	And the thing that I've said to you, I've said this to many people, Gina Carano, a lot of prominent people, is just when that happens, you should be prepared for whatever your next step is.
	Because I think that the worst thing that can happen is that if you get clocked and you don't
	see it coming, and you have no actual lifeboats ready, and you have no
	plan for what comes the day after that happens, it makes you feel trapped. It can get you really
	depressed, really, really down, understandably, because you're going to go from a position
	of wide acclaim to a position where suddenly your friends aren't calling you and people are
	treating you badly.
	Yeah.
	And so unless you're prepared for that sort of incoming, it makes it really difficult.
	So sort of getting in that mental head space and also making some actual business plans for, you know, what happens the day after if things go sideways is really, really important.
	So obviously that is what ended up happening with you at ESPN.
	So why don't you kind of go through the kind of major incidents in the timeline?
	Oh gosh, there were a couple.
	The first one I think that started the ball rolling was in 2020.
	And that was, you know, the time I referred to earlier about COVID and George Floyd.
	And I had been informed by a few people that there was a special that they were getting ready to produce and have many of the on-air, the black on-air talent host about race and sport.
	And I found out, I mean, it was in the works, and I found out that I was not included, and it was intentional.
	And I was like, what are you talking about?
	I was, you know, at the time, and even when I left, I was the longest-tenured female doing SportsCenter at the network.
	Linda Cohen has been doing it longer, but she doesn't do it, you know, full-time as much anymore, and she's a legend, by the way.
	And she's out in Los Angeles doing a lot of hockey, so in Bristol, like, that was me, the longest-tenured woman there.
	And oh, by the way, a woman of color, To not include me in something like that was shocking, and I ended up finding out.
	The reason was because there are two Black hosts there who were my peers on SportsCenter who went to the management and said that they wouldn't do the special if I was on it because I wasn't Black enough.
	I wasn't accepted by the real black community.
	That, I'll admit, I mean, that was hard.
	That was hard to hear because I'm like, what exactly does that mean?
	The real black community.
	I'm not black enough.
	Like, what does that mean?
	And the reason I found out is because, you know, they were talking about it openly to people and kind of bragging, at least one of them was.
	So, you know, and then I, so I talked to management.
	I talked to the president of the company.
	I talked to everybody.
	I'm like, what is this?
	This is not okay.
	And then it was like, well, and I never really got a straight answer.
	And then it went on for weeks.
	And finally, I, you know, word gets out and I got a call from a reporter, the Wall Street Journal.
	And I had a talk with my agent and I was like, you know, I don't know what to do here, but I can't keep quiet about this stuff anymore.
	This is so wrong.
	And it's totally hypocritical.
	And I, and so I gave a statement.
	And I think the most telling thing, and it was just about like, really, if we're going to talk about diversity, you know what, tell me what not black enough means.
	And we can't, we can't silence people because they don't fit that narrative of whatever it is politically.
	And so I think the most telling part was, was that they had to give a statement as well.
	And they didn't even address it.
	There was zero denial at all of what I had accused them of doing.
	And it just went into how open-minded they really are.
	So listen, if somebody accused me of doing something that I didn't do, what's the first thing you do?
	You deny it.
	And of course there was none of that because it was true.
	So when I spoke up about that and went on record with a reporter, certainly that's not what any company would want an employee to do.
	But when that employee feels Treated poorly.
	Treated unfairly.
	Unequally.
	And, of course, the hypocrisy that lied within the entire issue.
	At some point, after years and years and years, people stand up.
	And that's what that was.
	So that, I believe, was kind of the beginning.
	And then I talked about race and my views that I shared about being biracial on a podcast with Jay Cutler in 2021.
	And I then spoke about the vaccine mandate.
	The difference between the vaccine and the vaccine mandate.
	You and I even had conversations about the vaccine a couple of years ago when it was all going on.
	And obviously I think we've all learned a lot of new information and many lessons from that time as well.
	All I said that day on the podcast is that I think it's sick and scary for any company to force their employees to do something to their body that they don't want to do.
	It wasn't about the shot, it was about being forced.
	And then I Of course, I said Disney, and I think it's wrong, but I complied because I needed my job.
	But most importantly, I love my job, and I'm 100% financially responsible for all three of my children.
	So I had no choice, and that was a turning point for me in my life, actually, to be forced to do something to my body that I didn't agree with.
	And I just wanted more time.
	I just wanted more research on it.
	It happened too fast for me.
	And listen, I did my own homework.
	I know how long it usually takes the FDA to approve a vaccine, and it happened way too... I just wanted time.
	It was nothing against what anybody else thought.
	And so to be forced, that changed me.
	So it's one thing to have the opinion, it's another thing to say it on a podcast, on a day off, on a different platform that was not anything related to ESPN.
	And that's when I got punished and suspended, et cetera, et cetera.
	assignments taken away for months and months and months and ended up deciding to file a
	lawsuit because of that. And it was a First Amendment law that was broken in the state
	of Connecticut, related to employment in Connecticut, not First Amendment U.S. Constitution, which
	everybody's like, she's an idiot. Read the lawsuit. It's about a law, First Amendment
	employment related in the state of Connecticut, based on the hypocrisy of my employers punishing
	me in the way that they did very, very publicly. The suspension, public apology, their statements
	surrounding that and then taking assignments away versus my peers on air, on ESPN airwaves.
	To your point earlier, speaking about their political views, we have had a host talking
	about Roe versus Wade the day it was overturned on an NBA show on draft day. That doesn't
	really relate to basketball in my opinion, nor does the alleged don't say gay bill that
	they held a moment of silence on women's basketball coverage.
	So we, not only were we, they, bosses were allowing it to be spoken of, they were encouraging it and allowing political views with my peers on our airwaves.
	But then when I'm punished off our airwaves for my own experiences as a biracial woman and having an opinion about a mandate, that's where, no, and that's why we stood up.
	And where does that lawsuit currently stand?
	Did that end up settling or is that still ongoing?
	It settled in August of 2023, and that's when my time, my 16 and a half years at ESPN ended on August 14th.
	Yeah.
	We'll get to more on this in just one second.
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	Well, now you're doing brand new things.
	The time finally came and you've launched a brand new podcast with Bill Maher's Podcast Network.
	Bill, of course, is doing a wonderful job.
	I'm friends with Bill and he's doing a really good thing by extending the kind of Overton window to cover a lot of views that a lot of people traditionally haven't had.
	How cool is that, Ben?
	Like, honestly, that was so cool for me to be asked to go on a show in the first place.
	I was like, really?
	Me?
	Are you sure?
	And then live on his show twice, he offered me a job, and I was like, there's no way.
	You know how he always talks about—and it's so funny.
	He comes in, he smokes pot the whole time.
	I was like, okay, he's high.
	He's never going to remember that he offered me a job in front of everybody.
	And then I was like—he said it again.
	I'm like, you know we have tape of this.
	He's like, I mean it.
	Let's work together.
	And so the conversations happened immediately.
	This is, what, September, October of 23.
	And the big picture is just beautiful.
	What it stands for to me, like, it made me cry at first when this really became a reality.
	It's just proof.
	Like, we can be different.
	We don't have to think the same way.
	To have conversations.
	Oh, to be friends.
	To work together.
	Like, what he did by hiring me and giving me a platform is what I'm hoping happens throughout America.
	I mean, he talks all the time about how much he thinks marriage is a waste of time, and stupid, and kids are annoying, and how he's an atheist.
	And I, you know, I was married for 20 years.
	I still believe in marriage.
	Maybe someday.
	I hope I can get married again someday.
	My kids are my life.
	They're 18, 20, and 22.
	They're my life, not my job.
	And I'm a Catholic.
	I was raised Catholic.
	I'm a Christian.
	My faith is what's kept me going these last few years of chaos, personally and professionally.
	We could not be more different.
	And look who hired me.
	That's diversity of thought.
	Bill and I agree on a few core issues right now, too, whether it's immigration or the vaccine mandate, transgender sports.
	We're on the same page, like most Americans are with a lot of those things.
	The other stuff, fine.
	Have a conversation and then go have a beer.
	Like what Bill did by giving me that platform, It speaks volumes and it means so much.
	So what do you want your show to look like?
	You've had a couple episodes, so what's the evolution of the show going to look like?
	What would you like it to be?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And I actually have seven more in the can.
	I'm getting ready to go out tomorrow and tape.
	We've been doing this for a little while.
	Here's the thing.
	There's a difference between a talk show and talking and interviewing and having conversations.
	And that's what I'm about.
	And I've just, you know me, I'm super casual.
	Even when I was on ESPN and SportsCenter, I always tried to make every three-minute interview conversational.
	That's what, as a consumer and a viewer, I want.
	But it isn't about, okay, You know, your resume, your statistics, and your political views.
	I mean, okay, here and there a little bit, but to me, the core of everything, what I want to know about every person I meet, it can be annoying to some if I'm in the grocery store.
	My kids are like, mom, stop getting their life story.
	Stop.
	Okay.
	I'm like, okay, fine.
	I'll save it for my job.
	I want to know what's in here.
	And it sounds cheesy, but it's the truth.
	So, what happens when it hits the fan?
	When stuff starts to go south?
	When there's adversity?
	How do you handle it?
	Because for public figures like us, and people a lot bigger than me, like, okay, it looks all fine and dandy, and oh, she's happy, and look, my—oh, her makeup artist did a really good job today.
	Great, perfect life.
	No, not really.
	And when you're willing to talk about those things and show some vulnerability, What I have found through my ups and downs is that it's been super therapeutic for me to get these things out that I'd been holding in for a long time for fear of being disliked, for fear of being cancelled, all of the above.
	And also, gosh, it helps other people to realize, oh, wow.
	Me too!
	Like, I feel that way too, and they're not alone.
	So, Dana shared some really interesting things about what he's been through publicly, you know, and how he chose to handle them.
	That's what the theme of it is, really, is it's a conversation and To get people to share those things, because it helps others.
	And some of the other guests that we have coming up did that.
	Listen, one of the requirements is when you walk in, you have to pick a pair of fuzzy socks out of this basket that I have.
	Because, like, even now, I have jeans on and fuzzy socks whenever I talk, because that makes me feel comfortable, and I share more.
	A glass of wine helps too, and sometimes there's some of that there as well.
	And so, yes, Dana White, big bad Dana White, with his, you know, leather jacket and his camo pants, he had a pair of Hot pink and white fuzzy socks on during our conversation, you know?
	And I just feel like it helps people relax and it's just getting to know people and getting people to share a little bit because I feel like that will help so many of us heal in a country that needs some healing.
	So no spoilers, but who are the people you haven't interviewed yet who are kind of your dream interviews that you want to get on the show?
	Oh, I want to talk to Barack Obama.
	I want to know, both of us from biracial backgrounds, and me talking about his background has gotten me in a lot of trouble.
	Stupid, but fine, bring it.
	I'm fascinated to know a lot of things about him that have nothing to do with politics.
	Like, who's the human being?
	You know, I might not agree with a lot of what he says and does.
	But he's still human.
	Like, I want to know about that person.
	Condoleezza Rice is a hero of mine and I've met her several times and she's been awesome to me.
	That woman is one of my, yeah, one of my heroes for sure because of how she's chosen to handle things through the years, what she's overcome, how classy she's been with all of it.
	She has that green jacket at the Masters at Augusta National, really a black woman who comes from the South.
	Like, I want to know more about her core.
	It's going to be tough with some of these people because they're very guarded, and I understand why.
	I told someone yesterday, I want to talk to the Kardashians.
	I want to talk to Kris Jenner.
	I want to talk to, like, I love Khloe Kardashian.
	I think she's a real human.
	And yes, they have the show that one of my daughters made me watch, and I was like, oh But you know what?
	I watch it because that's what's out there and I want to learn about these people who have this grand life and millions and billions of dollars and struggles, you know?
	I don't know if they'll talk to me, I hope so, but it's just not about all the cool stuff that you've done.
	Like, but what's here?
	And I mean, as far as athletes, I've met Michael Jordan and worked with him a few times.
	I love him.
	I'd love to get him on there.
	He doesn't talk much, you know?
	I have some challenges I'm putting out there to myself to try to convince people to be comfortable enough to trust me with that kind of a setting, you know?
	So, last question.
	What is Nikola Jokic's dream?
	What is his what?
	His dream.
	Oh gosh, to be like a cattle farmer back in his home country, right?
	He hates basketball.
	I'm making fun of you a little bit because you look so much like Nicola Jokic.
	That's why.
	Just like Dana White and Joe Rogan.
	I hate you right now because that is so not true.
	Because Dana and Joe look exactly alike.
	Tell me I'm wrong.
	I know both of them.
	They don't look alike to me.
	I mean, I understand.
	Yes they do and they work together.
	I hate you.
	That's not even a good comparison.
	Why don't you give me a Halle Berry?
	Fair enough.
	What is Halle Berry's dream?
	There you go.
	I don't know.
	She won't talk to me.
	She's on the list.
	Well, Sage, it's great to talk to you.
	I'm so glad that you didn't just land on your feet.
	You're hitting the ground running.
	It's really exciting stuff.
	Really happy for you and proud of you for continuing to stand up for what you believe in.
	And it's great to see you.
	Listen, you helped me years ago just by caring enough to tell me to, you know, look out for myself and be ready.
	And I'll never forget that.
	So thank you.
	And thank you for finally having me on!
	Absolutely.
	Great to talk to you, Sage.
	Thanks so much.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday special is produced by Savannah Dominguez-Morris.
	Associate producer is Jake Pollock.
	Editing is by Jim Nickel.
	Audio is mixed by Mike Corimina.
	Post-production is managed by Matt Kemp.
	Camera and lighting is by Zach Ginta.
	Hair, makeup, and wardrobe by Fabiola Cristina.
	Title graphics are by Cynthia Angulo.
	Executive assistant, Kelly Carvalho.
	Executive in charge of production is David Wormus.
	Executive producer, Justin Siegel.
	Executive producer, Jeremy Boring.
	The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday special is a Daily Wire production.

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