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May 22, 2022 - The Ben Shapiro Show

49:49

Jonathan Isaac | The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special Ep. 126

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	Basketball isn't everything.
	And if the money was to go tomorrow, if the fame was to go tomorrow, who are you then?
	And I had many times of being a rookie in the NBA, doing what I thought I needed to do and having fun, and then looking myself in the mirror and saying, you know, who are you?
	As the world figured out how to navigate COVID in 2020, the NBA invested $190 million into what was called the NBA bubble.
	After halting all games for months, the season resumed from July to November.
	The teams played their games behind closed doors in empty stadiums and lived on-site in the surrounding hotels.
	This NBA season from the bubble was built at the early stages of COVID and thus was met with mixed reactions.
	Then, following the death of George Floyd, the politics intensified.
	Players, coaches, and staff throughout the league donned shirts with the words Black Lives Matter and knelt during the game opening national anthem performances as a form of protest.
	Our guest today entered the national spotlight when he decided to not do any of that.
	On July 31st, 2020, a viral moment happened when Jonathan Isaac was the one and only player on his team not dressed in a BLM tee and standing up for the anthem.
	Following the game, Jonathan told the press, I feel like putting a shirt on and kneeling one hand in hand with supporting Black Lives Matter.
	This moment made Jonathan the first player who refused to kneel for the anthem during this period of time.
	As we'll discuss in our episode, all the while, his contract was in the works.
	His career was at stake.
	A little over a year later, he would buck the league again for choosing not to take the COVID-19 vaccine.
	Jonathan's story is a turbulent but inspiring one.
	As the number one basketball player in the state of Florida in 2017, he was drafted by the Orlando Magic.
	He faced serious injury in his rookie year, but he came back the following year as a starter in 64 games and achieved several career highs.
	The next year, 2020, COVID redefined the NBA season.
	The BLM movement seeped into every area of life, including basketball.
	And the very next game, after Jonathan stood for the national anthem, he tore his ACL and was out for the rest of the season, and all of the last season as well.
	But throughout this mending process, Jonathan has told his story, navigating the vaccine, BLM, his injuries, and other challenges in his book, Why I Stand.
	In our episode, Jonathan and I get into the significant choices and risks that have made his journey encouraging for so many Americans.
	Hey, hey, and welcome.
	This is the Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special.
	This show is sponsored by ExpressVPN.
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	Jonathan, Isaac, thanks so much for joining the show.
	Thanks so much for having me, Ben.
	I'm glad to be here.
	So first of all, congrats on the book, Why I Stand.
	Thank you.
	Sure to be a massive bestseller.
	So why don't we start with this picture?
	Because this picture is really, I think, indicative of not just how amazing your story is, but who you are as a person.
	So what led up to this picture of you standing, all your teammates are kneeling, wearing Black Lives Matter t-shirts, and there you are, you know, standing with your head down during the national anthem.
	What exactly led to this?
	So, as you know, it starts with George Floyd and the whole Derek Chauvin altercation and ultimately George Floyd passing away, tragically.
	And during that time, there was the craziness of the Black Lives Matter movement.
	Everything became so polarizing, the left versus the right, white versus black, who's right, who's wrong.
	And it led to this moment of the NBA going into what was called the NBA bubble.
	And there being a lot of pressure on the NBA players to kneel for the national anthem and to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt.
	And during that time of kind of surveying everything and seeing how, just the emotions of everything that was going on and what everyone was saying, I thought to myself, what would be the best way for me to respond?
	Not just as Jonathan Isaac, but Jonathan Isaac the Christian.
	And so I looked out and I said, you know what?
	With my friends and my family and my pastor back home at Jump Ministries Global Church and decided that it was the right thing for me to do was to stand for the national anthem and declare that the love of Jesus Christ is ultimately the answer for all of the world's problems, not just racism, and that we all fall short of God's glory.
	And so that's what I did.
	And it led to that moment of being in the bubble and standing alone.
	So, let's talk about sort of the pressure that was brought to bear.
	Was that mostly social pressure?
	Was the NBA intervening in any way?
	What were you hearing from different people at the time?
	It was definitely social.
	I think social was the biggest one where it was just, especially as a black athlete, that there was the, you know, it's a part of standing for, you know, your people, the culture, and doing that as a collective.
	And so there was definitely the societal pressure.
	I would say the NBA was just open to, you know, the players doing what they felt they wanted to do.
	There was the, you know, the Black Lives Matter on the court and the different things.
	So there was a little bit from each and every direction, but the social was the biggest one, I believe.
	Now, you did this in the middle of a contract negotiation.
	I mean, this was not, you have a tenure contract with the team, your future in the NBA is secure.
	You're just starting off your career.
	I mean, you're still a really young guy.
	Yeah.
	And you decide to make that move.
	That takes a lot of courage.
	Yeah, I think courage was big in that moment.
	One of the things that I love to say in the book and just in general is that courage is not the absence of fear.
	And in today's day, there are so many things that you can be so afraid of standing for if you believe them because of what could come out of it.
	And so in the moment, there was a lot of fear about what's gonna happen with my contract, what are people gonna say about me, but I knew what I was standing for.
	And what the book details is me saying that Jesus, the love of Jesus Christ is the answer is because I've experienced it in my own life.
	Christ's love isn't like everybody else's love.
	It's not like the world's love.
	The world's love loves you when you do things right or when you do things with them.
	But as soon as you make a mistake, they take that love away.
	But what I've experienced with the love of Christ is that it loves first.
	It loves through wrongdoing.
	It loves when you shouldn't be loved anymore.
	It's unconditional.
	And that's the love that I believe is going to change the world and has changed me.
	So what were the conversations like in the locker room with your teammates?
	Because obviously you're very close with your teammates.
	You have to participate with them.
	It's a workplace like any other workplace, but I mean, these are people who you're on the road with full time.
	Most of us don't travel with our, with the people we work with.
	And so what was that?
	And you were in a bubble.
	So, I mean, it wasn't as though you had like a massive social life happening outside where you're going out with your family at night to a community of people at the church, and this was in the middle of COVID.
	So what was that like socially?
	Well, it was emotional.
	You've got to understand that guys at this time, they were feeling the pressure themselves of what is the right thing to do, and the same societal pressure that I was feeling about the decision to make.
	Guys were emotional about what they saw with George Floyd and Derek Chauvin, as was I. But again, for me, it was about what was the right way to respond for there to be actual progress, and not just step into a moment and join into the perpetual fight that has been going on forever.
	And so it was emotional.
	Guys had their feelings about what was the right thing to do, and they wore that on their sleeve.
	And I wanted that same respect in return, so I wore it on my sleeve as well.
	So did you, in your conversations, ever get some, number one, sort of anger, and number two, sympathy for your position?
	What was sort of the prevailing viewpoints?
	What are some of those conversations like?
	Well, it was both, for sure.
	Like, again, guys were emotional, guys were heated, and wanted to do this together and as a team and as a symbol.
	But at the same time, guys who knew me understood my position, that I wasn't protesting anyone's protest.
	I was simply standing for what I chose to believe in.
	So in one second, I want to talk about sort of what shaped your worldview on this sort of stuff, because obviously it wasn't widely shared at the time.
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	All right, so let's go back to the beginning because this really was the culmination of a sort of lifetime move by you in terms of your philosophy.
	You talk about your embrace of religion, but things start a lot earlier than that because that is really the story of the book.
	As we say, this was sort of the apex of the story, but that wasn't the beginning of the story.
	You've suffered personally from a lot of anxiety from trying to deal with that.
	How have you been able to deal with that and how did that affect you as you were becoming much more famous and all of this?
	Well, I don't want to give everything away because people got to go and get the book to get the 411 for real.
	But growing up in Bronx, New York, I was about 10 years old and my father and my mom split up.
	And then from there I went to Naples, Florida with my mom, with my four brothers and one sister.
	And during the time of trying to fit in, coming from Bronx, New York to Naples, Florida, the difference in the ethnicities of those two places, it was hard for me to fit in.
	Kids used to call me Ethiopia when I got there.
	And so I had a hard time of trying to work for love, trying to work for attention, trying to work for all these things to fit in, because that's what I really wanted.
	And I was really void of that unconditional love I grew to know in Jesus Christ.
	And so during the time I found basketball, and basketball became everything to me.
	It was the crux of how I found that attention and love, because once I grew to become the number one player in the state of Florida, everyone knew my name.
	Everyone wanted to know me everyone and wanted to be around me and so I kind of placed my identity in the game But still those underlying emotional issues of anxiety and fear weren't dealt with they were just mashed through the game And so as I got to Florida State and obviously to the league next I struggled behind the scenes to work on that love and the story again would you have to get the book to really get the 411 but I I came to understand that the love of Jesus Christ, like I said, loves first and it's unconditional.
	And through a crazy circumstances and a wild story of just divine connection and God just leading my steps and leading people to me, I met a man in the elevator.
	This is a little bit of the story.
	And that man went on to become my pastor at the time, but he stopped me in the elevator not knowing who I was, and he said, I know how you're going to be great.
	And I said, how?
	And he said, you got to know Jesus.
	And I was like, man, I know Jesus.
	I'm a Christian, but I really didn't.
	And so again, through just some crazy circumstances, I was able to walk through feeling like, God, you love me, and you're there for me, and God made his love tangible to me.
	I've been riding with that ever since, and that's the love that I'm trying my best to portray and to show the world.
	So, for those of us who haven't suffered from anxiety, I have family members who suffer from anxiety, but what is that experience like?
	I mean, when you're actually struggling with something like that?
	I think all of us have been anxious at some point, but having that as like an actual condition is a different thing.
	Yeah, I mean, it was just, it's tough.
	It's something that's underlying, and you can try your best to mask it on the outside, but it's something that eats at you on the inside.
	And when I got to Florida State, again, being the number one player in the state of Florida, I was ready to play basketball, but I was struggling with these things behind the scenes where, at one point in time when I was at Florida State, I passed out in class.
	Not knowing what was going on.
	I knew I had those internal fears of being big man on campus and everybody looking to me to kind of bring the championship home at the NCAA tournament, which we unfortunately weren't able to do.
	But those things are just underlying, and you really have to get to the crux of where your identity lies and who God says you are.
	And those are some of the things that I started to be able to put into practice and experience with the love of God to where today I'm able to come out of that.
	But it's still a work in progress, of course.
	So, as a black man in America, you've grown up in a couple of different, very different places.
	You grew up in Naples, but before that, you grew up in the Bronx, which must have been super different.
	So what were your experiences like growing up in the Bronx?
	Well, I mean, honestly, it was fine.
	It was all I ever knew.
	I didn't know that there was another life out there or different places you could live with different groups of people.
	It was kind of just everybody was just in the Bronx.
	And the kids, we loved to horseplay.
	We loved to have fun.
	We loved to fight.
	And as I brought that to Naples, there was a huge culture shock of, you know, not being able to fight in school and not being able to horseplay and getting in a lot of trouble early on.
	And you said that your parents were divorced at about this time.
	How did that affect you?
	Because not having a dad in the home, obviously, is pretty rough.
	Yeah, it was huge, more so because my dad was that spiritual rock.
	He held our family together.
	We were always in church.
	And having those little seeds of faith planted in me at a young age, I'm so glad that they were because I was able to hold on to them into my adulthood.
	But after, with the story being a bit rocky and me going off and doing everything that I thought I needed to do or wanted to do in life once I got to the NBA, but not having him anymore and kind of having to just dive into this culture shock that it was, I had to deal with a lot of it on my own.
	And you talked about, briefly, some of your experiences with racism in high school and while you were growing up.
	Maybe you can talk a little bit more about that.
	Yeah, it was tough.
	It was just such a culture shock.
	Again, really wanting to fit in, really wanting to be accepted by the people that were around me.
	I was shunned a lot, ostracized, until I began to dominate at basketball.
	And so once basketball became that piece, I started to get the love from the people that, you know, would originally call me Ethiopian.
	I was really skinny, and I tried really hard to put on weight and entered one story of Having a father in the home and then not having a father in the home, how did that sort of shift your view of manhood?
	and all these different things.
	And one time a coach asked me, do you know what those things do?
	And I said, no, I just didn't want to be called Ethiopia anymore.
	So I was just trying to put on weight.
	Having a father in the home and then not having a father in the home, how did that sort of shift your view of manhood?
	Because that ties into, I think, your religious journey as well.
	Yeah, I said, views of manhood is just, you have to learn from people that were around you.
	But what was so awesome for me is that God had put in the story as well, so many different people in my life that could lead me to each journey and to where I am now.
	And so I had representatives of manhood that weren't my dad at the time, but were put in my life for that reason.
	So you end up going to college, you're a big man on campus, and what is life like, and what is the lack that sort of leads you to start looking a different way?
	Well, it's just basketball isn't everything, and the fame and the money and the things that we chase after really don't satisfy you.
	They're not something that's transcendent to who you are, and they're fleeting.
	If the money was to go tomorrow, if the fame was to go tomorrow, who are you then?
	And I had many times of being a rookie in the NBA, doing what I thought I needed to do and having fun, and then looking at myself in the mirror and saying, you know, who are you?
	Why are you doing what you're doing?
	And again, what I think is so dope about the love of God is that I wasn't checking for I wasn't saying I want to become a Christian.
	He came after me and sent so many different things and people into my life.
	You really have to get the story to hear the crux of how I got to where I am today.
	So, Sagan, I want to hear a little bit more about that because, again, I think most people who look at an NBA star...
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	So I think that, you know, for most men particularly, we look at the lifestyle of an NBA athlete and you think, okay, that's everything I want, right?
	That's money, that's women, that's travel, that's being able to do all the things that all men dream of in sort of the id part of your brain, the most animalistic part of your brain that seeks glory and seeks sex and seeks money and all those things.
	And yet you were able to see beyond that.
	What opened your mind to that?
	Why didn't that sort of eat you up the way that it tends to eat up people who are in that position?
	Well, I was able to experience it.
	And so being able to experience those things and being able to look myself in the mirror and, you know, you can attribute it to the early things that I learned growing up and it really came to fruition or reality in my mind once I got to experience these things.
	But again, I was saying God came after me.
	It wasn't that I was so tired of living this life that I just wanted to go in a different direction.
	God sent a man into my life, the man that stopped me at the elevator and said, I can tell you how to be great, along with some crazy circumstances that it opened my eyes to say, you know what?
	There is a God.
	God is real.
	Jesus is real.
	He did die for my sins.
	And being able to experience that love in so many different ways, I had to say yes.
	So what causes you to actually, you know, take that business card that you're handed on the elevator and then actually call the number on it?
	Because, I mean, there are a lot of people out there who are, you know, reached out to by religious figures, by people who want to give them a path, and most people just take the card and throw it away.
	Most people are just like, yeah, you know what, my life is pretty good.
	I don't really need that.
	What caused you to actually take that seriously?
	Well, okay, I'll take you through the story.
	It was the love.
	So when I first met this man on the elevator and he stops me and he says, I can tell you how to be great.
	Yeah, you have to know Jesus.
	I'm like, yeah, fine, whatever.
	The man actually lived in my building.
	And so I keep seeing him all over the place.
	I see him in the elevator.
	I see him when I get into my car.
	I see him when I'm walking out of the building.
	All just a coincidence.
	And he's telling me, you know, you should go to lunch with me.
	And I'm like, I don't want to go to lunch with you.
	I don't know who you are.
	You probably want something from me.
	But it happened again.
	I said, look, if I see you again, I will go to lunch with you.
	So long story short, a couple of days later, I see him again.
	I'm like, okay, we're going to lunch right now.
	And a lot of this was motivated by the things that were happening behind the scenes that he didn't know about that only God can know about the things that I was struggling with.
	Having my eyes be opened a little bit to, okay, who is this guy?
	Okay, if I see you again, I'll go to lunch with you.
	So I go to lunch with him, and it's just a normal conversation.
	You know, we get on the topic of God a little bit, but not very much.
	I leave the lunch, and I delete his number.
	And I'm like, okay, I'm good.
	I don't have to go through this anymore.
	And during this time, I went to a chapel with the Orlando Magic, you know, kind of early into my rookie year.
	And the chaplain says, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?
	It's Luke 6, 46.
	And it hit me like a ton of bricks, because that was me.
	I would pray when times got tough.
	I would delete my old music playlist and put only Christian music when times got tough, when I wasn't playing well.
	But once I started to play good again, I would get back to what I was doing.
	Jesus wasn't tangible.
	Our relationship with him wasn't real.
	It was just tradition or something that I referenced in some type of way.
	And so, but now all I could think about was that verse, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?
	And I said to myself, I'm going to find out if this thing is real or not.
	And so I'm going to either drop the whole Christian label altogether, or I'm going to go into this thing with open arms and see what it is.
	Again, this is all working in the background of meeting this guy.
	So then, me and a friend of mine, okay, this is in the story as well, me and a friend of mine come up with the idea that we are going to buy a bunch of burgers.
	We were reading in, you know, the Bible where Jesus says, whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me.
	And it was around November time, Thanksgiving.
	And we said, we're going to buy a bunch of burgers and we're going to pass it out to the homeless.
	And now, this is another thing that's happening.
	So again, you got to put that in your back pocket.
	I go to the movies with another old friend of mine.
	He was my trainer when I was in high school.
	And he always would drop little God comments and, you know, you want to do a Bible study with me?
	And I'd be like, no, dude, I just want you to be my trainer.
	And so we go to the movies, and we go to watch a Christian movie, and it's horrible.
	It's terrible.
	It's so cheesy.
	And halfway through, we're like, OK, we're going to jump to another movie.
	So we jump to watch Thor.
	We get to watch Thor, it's over, and we're sitting in the parking lot, and he says to me, you know, where are you at with God?
	And I'm like, well, you know, I'm searching.
	You know, I'm reading some stuff.
	I'm looking up Christian apologetics.
	I'm flirting with it in the back of my mind, but I don't really know if it's real or not.
	I want God to make himself real to me.
	And he says, if you knock, the door will be opened to you.
	If you seek and you really seek, you're going to find.
	And so I go to leave out of the parking lot.
	So now this is all in my mind again.
	It's all the things that are happening in the background.
	I go to leave, and as I'm pulling out onto this street, there's a car that's pulling onto the street.
	And our car stopped, like, as he can see the front side of my car, I can see the front of his, and I look, and it's the guy from the elevator.
	And I roll down my window, and he rolls down his, and I say, you, me, breakfast tomorrow.
	And I'm driving home saying, God, I don't know if this is real, but you must want this guy in my life.
	I don't understand what's going on.
	I go to breakfast with him the next day, and I'm telling him about my plan to feed all these people with hamburgers and stuff, and he tells me, you can't do that.
	I say, why not?
	He says, if you're gonna feed people, you have to feed people right.
	You have to do it the right way.
	I have a catering company.
	You buy the food, I'll have my people cook it, and we'll really do a Thanksgiving thing for the homeless.
	Okay, so fast forward.
	We go to Sam's Club.
	I'm following him to Sam's Club, saying in my mind, I don't even know who this guy is.
	What are you doing?
	But it feels right.
	And so I go to Sam's Club with him, buy a bunch of food.
	Somebody comes and picks it up.
	A couple of days later, I get a text message with an address.
	I show up to the address, and there's a line of like 200 homeless people outside, ready to be fed.
	I hop in line, I put my hat on, and I start feeding people.
	The young lady who was standing right next to me in line serving becomes my wife in four years.
	So that's, again, it's all a part of the story.
	But afterwards, we finish feeding the people, and there's a church there.
	We go inside the church, and he asked me, do you want me to pray over your ankle?
	Because I was injured at the time.
	And he's praying over my ankle so just earnestly, and I can feel like what's happening is right.
	And I go home that night, and again, with all of the things that I was struggling with behind the scenes, I'm saying to myself, God, you've orchestrated this.
	This isn't me.
	This can't be me.
	And it's because you love me.
	You want to get something to me.
	And so, I kneel on the side of my bed for the first time that I've done since I've been in Orlando as a rookie, and I remember the Christian sinner's prayer from a young kid, Jesus, come into my heart, be Lord of my life.
	And I pray that prayer, and next thing you know, me and the man that I met in the elevator started to just develop a friendship, and he says to me, You should come to church with me." And I say, look, if you're cool, your pastor has to be cool.
	So I go to the church, I'm sitting down, and they introduce the pastor, and it's him.
	And so from then on, I've been a part of the church, Jump Ministries Global Church in Orlando.
	His name is Dr. Deron Hepburn, and he's just been mentoring me and pastoring me for four years now, and is a huge part of the reason I am the man that I am today.
	And who was the man that I was on the phone with the night before I stood, kind of telling him, like, this is gonna be huge.
	You know, people are gonna, there's gonna be backlash, there's gonna be articles, there's gonna be all these different things.
	I haven't signed my contract yet, but we decided that it was the right thing to do.
	So how did the team react to you not kneeling with the rest of the players?
	Yeah, again, it was an emotional reaction.
	A lot of guys disagreed with my decision or didn't understand why I felt the need to do it or why I had to, but I did.
	And so we were able to have a conversation after, and they were able to get out their feelings, and that's in the book as well, and what was said and everything like that.
	But we left it as, I respected your decision to kneel, and I asked for that same respect in return, but I'm going to stand for what I believe in.
	How did you personally react to the amount of media backlash?
	Because there was an enormous amount of media backlash.
	I remember there were columnists who were suggesting that you weren't properly black, that you really didn't know what you were talking about on any of these issues, that you were ignorant, and all the rest of this.
	I mean, as I've received my share of criticism, it's never easy.
	So what was that like, especially for somebody like you, where if you were going to receive criticism, it was probably going to be about your athletic performance, not anything to do with your ideas or your religious beliefs or anything.
	That's a different thing.
	And on top of that, I got injured the next game.
	So the game, I stood in the bubble.
	And the next game, I tore my ACL.
	So that's just like the on pile of, it happened for a reason.
	You tore your ACL because you didn't kneel with your brothers and all of these different things.
	But the negativity was definitely there.
	People had their things to say.
	But the encouragement at the same time was outweighed.
	100 times.
	The letters that I got, the messages that I got of people who were encouraged and emboldened themselves to stand for Christ and stand for the love of Christ made it all worthwhile.
	But at the end of the day, I knew what I was standing for, and it was about really an audience of one and not what everybody else had to say.
	So in a second, I'm going to talk about what it's like to be a professional athlete and have to know that basically how your body is on any given day makes or breaks your career.
	That's got to be incredibly anxiety provoking just in and of itself.
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	You tear your ACL.
	I think that, you know, I'm not an athlete, but that would be the equivalent for me of I get a really, really bad bout of laryngitis that takes me out of commission for like a year.
	I mean, what is that like?
	especially, and you have to be constantly in tune with your body.
	You have only a certain length in your career.
	I mean, nobody's playing until they're 50 in the NBA.
	So what is that like when that happens?
	It's tough.
	And trying to wrap my head around why it happened or, God, why would you allow something like this to happen?
	I got peace and comfort in the fact that I was able to write a book about why I stood in the first place.
	And I wouldn't have been able to have it had I not got injured.
	And where I am right now with the rehab, I'm feeling great.
	I'm looking ready to come back next season.
	And so I feel it all had a purpose to it.
	And God always has a plan for what He allows.
	And being able to see the book tangibly here, and I know the lives that it's going to impact and change and encourage, it's all worth it.
	So now I want to ask a bunch of dumb questions about what it's like to play in the NBA because this is something I will never do.
	Sadly, as a 5'9", 38-year-old Jewish male, I don't think that's probably in my future.
	So how do you stay in shape?
	What is the exercise regimen like?
	It's everyday.
	It's everyday.
	I think, you know, just basketball shape in general of running up and down the court, it gets you there.
	But the summer is huge on time of taking those next steps and levels to take your game to the next level.
	And so it's an everyday thing.
	And how many hours a day do you have to...
	I'd say at least five.
	I think that's just for, you know, me right now trying to balance the book stuff and the rehab.
	My rehab comes first in the morning and I'm at the gym for about five hours and then try to muscle in these interviews and other things around there.
	I mean, ACL is a serious injury, so what's the rehab process on that like?
	It's just meticulous.
	It's just, you know, very monotonous.
	Every day is kind of the same things and you just have those building blocks that kind of grow on top of each other until you're back where you used to be.
	And how do you do nutrition?
	I'm not the biggest, like, I'm going to nitpick everything that I eat, but I just try to stay away from fried foods and sodas and sugars and stuff.
	But other than that, I eat pretty normally.
	Simultaneously, you weren't just making a stand with regard to not kneeling in the bubble.
	I want to get back to some of the race questions in a second, but you also took a stand with regard to the COVID vaccine.
	So there's a lot of pressure, obviously, on everyone in the United States to take the COVID vaccine.
	I'm vaccinated, double vaccinated and got Omicron.
	Well, of course.
	I mean, everyone got it.
	I mean, like, everyone got it.
	But you're talking about, in the NBA, an extraordinarily young and very healthy cohort of human beings.
	So this is not the chief group of people who are going to die or get seriously ill from COVID.
	The NBA put extraordinary pressure on people to take the vaccine.
	Can you kind of take me through the timeline?
	Because you were in a bubble.
	That's got to be difficult.
	I mean, just to play in a bubble with no audience and then basically be stuck in a place with just your teammates.
	Yeah.
	That must have been rough.
	And then the pressure with regard to the vaccine.
	Yes, the vaccine pressure didn't come until after the bubble.
	So after we got out, it was the turn of the next year and around, I want to say March of that next year, there was the, you know, the NBA players are in line to get their vaccination shots.
	And there I would say there was definitely more pressure from the league and all of the societal pressure to get vaccinated in the first place.
	For me, it was fairly simple.
	Wanting to just look out and see how everything was going and the tone of what everybody was talking about.
	There was a hint in me that felt like it wasn't all genuine in the way that it was pushed, in the way that the people were marked and tried to make this a moral issue about if you were a good person or not.
	But I looked at myself and said, look, I'm an NBA player.
	I'm in great shape.
	I'm young.
	I've already had COVID.
	And I was understanding about antibodies and natural immunity around that time.
	Again, I'm young.
	I'm healthy.
	Why would I take the risk of putting something in my body that I could still get the virus anyway?
	And so it seemed like the wise choice for me to say, I don't have to take this.
	I don't need it.
	And again, I don't have any comorbidities or anything like that.
	But if somebody on the other side is afraid of what could possibly happen to them from the virus, take the vaccine.
	So that was my position.
	But then again, being able to look out and see how people's religious exemptions and medical exemptions were being denied, the questions about what the virus or the vaccine could do were being squashed down and no conversation.
	It's just you're an evil person if you don't take this and you don't care about anybody.
	I was worrisome.
	There was the whole Rolling Stone article that completely mischaracterized my position on the vaccine.
	And that's when I said, OK, something is up where they don't want, you know, how I feel or what I need to say to be, you know, true.
	But I had the opportunity to speak at the press conference the next day and kind of clear my position.
	So for people who missed the Rolling Stone article, what was the accusation that they basically made about you?
	So I get a call from my team, the Orlando Magic, and they're like, hey, there's a reporter from the Rolling Stone.
	He wants to talk to you about the vaccine.
	And he already knew that I was unvaccinated, which I didn't know how.
	So be it.
	So I get on the phone with him and he's cordial.
	He's, I understand your position and that makes a lot of sense.
	And then the article comes out and it says that I came to my vaccine decision by studying black history and watching Donald Trump press conferences.
	And that I waited and watched for people to die and put my faith in God.
	And that's when I was just like, this is insane.
	And I was so upset.
	Again, I'm on the phone with my pastor and I'm like, yo, you don't understand.
	This thing makes me look like I'm crazy.
	And he's like, well, you have media day tomorrow.
	If they ask you about it, you're able to say how you feel.
	And I did.
	And the video went to like eight million views in a week.
	And, you know, people were able to understand my position.
	So you weren't the only NBA player, obviously, who was vax hesitant or decided not to take it.
	Kyrie Irving, obviously, took an enormous amount of flack for not taking the vaccine.
	And then, of course, New York had bizarre rules where he couldn't play at home, but he could play on the road for a while, which makes perfect scientific sense because you can only get COVID, apparently, if you're unvaccinated in New York.
	But if you're unvaccinated elsewhere, then you're totally immune.
	And so all of that is that is totally fine.
	You know, among the other NBA players, I have to imagine that there are a lot of NBA players who are pretty hesitant to take the vaccine.
	Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised.
	If I were a professional athlete and I didn't want to take it, I wouldn't be surprised if some people got some documentation that was not totally on the up and up.
	But what was the feeling around the NBA about taking it?
	I don't know about that, about the fake vax cards, but there was definitely feelings of guys that they didn't want to take it either.
	But because of that pressure from one society and the NBA and kind of the regulations that they said would come out if you didn't take the vaccine, like you wouldn't be able to eat with your teammates and you'd have to test every day all of these different things, that, you know, why not just take it?
	But for me, it was more about the principle of what was going on, how people were being treated, people were losing their jobs.
	That's not something that I wanted to stand with.
	And yeah, I could have just acquiesced and said, you know, let me take it just to take it, but I didn't feel comfortable doing so.
	But that tide has definitely turned more as more things have come out about the vaccine and its origin and all of these different things, the virus and its origin and all these different things that I think if it was to come out again, that a lot more guys would be hesitant.
	So what was the actual COVID protocol while you were doing this?
	I mean, you took a, you were telling me before the show that basically you had to get tested every single day when you were in the bubble, for example.
	Yeah, well, in the bubble and throughout the entirety of last season.
	So, you know, you had to test every day if you were unvaccinated.
	You had, you know, you had to wait, you know, until you got your test results back before you get into the building, different things like that.
	It just made it harder, obviously, to do the job.
	But at the same time, I wasn't playing.
	And so I was okay with, you know, Abiding by those, you know, regulations.
	So I want to go back for a second to the decision to stand in the bubble as opposed to kneeling.
	So obviously, you have a religious perspective that I want to get into a little bit with regard to what you think are the cures for America's problems.
	What do you think the status is of race in America right now?
	Because there are a lot of folks who suggest that racism is still widely endemic in the United States.
	There are a lot of people who say that really it isn't.
	Where do you think everything sort of lies in America racially?
	Yeah, I feel like we've definitely come a long way from where things used to be.
	I think that there are, of course, still racist people and racist things that, you know, African Americans have to battle through.
	But, you know, we have come a long way from where we used to be.
	And so you take the position that basically, you know, the way to solve problems is to do it on the individualistic level, and you take that via religious lessons.
	Well, I take the position that America hasn't done everything right.
	In its history and even today, but it also hasn't done everything wrong.
	And so when you do look at an individual level and where you put your hope for the future and deciding to get out and fight and overcome some of these hurdles, I think it is something that you can do.
	And I'm a product of that.
	There are several other people who have been able to do that.
	But again, I really do feel like on both sides, being able to get past just Regulation and legislation, it is about truly loving people of a different ethnicity, color, background than you.
	And so, in terms of the buck stopping with there's no more institutional racism or things of that sort, and so we're good, I think that's not enough.
	I think from an individual perspective of, you know, black people needing to overcome and fight and be these individuals, there is a responsibility on everyone's right to love and see their brother and want to help.
	So, in a second, I want to ask about, you mentioned earlier, meeting your wife while serving food to the homeless, which is a pretty amazing way to meet your wife.
	I want to get into that in just one second.
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	Like, my assistant Kelly, she basically ensures that my life runs.
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	So, part of your story here and part of your spiritual transformation, it sounds like, is your relationship with your wife too.
	So, you guys met actually serving food to the homeless, which is Pretty much just straight out of the Bible, like just meeting your spouse.
	Well, actually serving the poor.
	So, can you talk a little bit about how your relationship has shaped your life?
	Yeah, so we met that day, and I started to grow.
	She was already in the church for years, so she's just doing her thing, what was normal to her, but it wasn't normal to me.
	And so as I begin to grow in faith and understanding of who God is, and again, experience that love, I want to start doing better, and I want to start living my life according to what God says, to the best of my ability.
	And so I begin to grow and come to the church full-time and become a member and all these things, and I get to see her in action, doing her thing, loving God.
	I get to see the type of woman that she is.
	She's also a Christian rapper, so the way that she ministers, she had the opportunity to preach a couple times.
	When I saw her preach I was like, this woman is bad.
	So yeah, that's where it started and I was able to develop that friendship with her and then it turned into us dating for a year, being engaged for a year.
	And then married, but she's definitely been such a rock for me and another person that when I'm talking about experiencing that love of God, because God uses people.
	And so being able to experience her love, her encouragement for me as a basketball player and seeing me as more than just a basketball player, but a man who wants to do right and do better, I'm encouraging that Jonathan.
	Unconditionally has been something that has helped me tremendously.
	And again, one of the people that was on the phone with me when we were engaged at the time that said, you may be standing alone, but I'm standing right there with you.
	Can you talk a little bit about what you think the role of a man and a husband is?
	Because obviously in our society, a lot of this stuff has been pretty undermined.
	And it sounds like your value system really leads you to a certain set of rules that you try to live by with regard to being a husband.
	How does that play out in your life?
	I feel like God calls us to lead, for sure.
	I feel like God calls us to be a rock for our families and relationships.
	And I think the biggest thing is to uptake the responsibility of it and to see the responsibility of it as noble in leading and loving and going the extra mile to help the influence that you have be better.
	And I think at the end of the day, for a man, it's to honor God first.
	And when you do that, everything else falls into place.
	So, you and your wife, how long have you guys been married?
	Six months.
	Six months.
	Okay, fine.
	So, it may be a little early to talk kids, but maybe not.
	So, are you guys talking about kids already?
	Soon.
	Soon, for sure.
	I want to get back on the court in a little bit, but for sure.
	Yeah, and thank God the rehab is going well.
	And so, what have you guys talked about in terms of the principles that you want to raise your kids by?
	Oh, well, the principles that we live by, for sure.
	And so we want our kids to be God-fearing, of course, and we honestly haven't even had as many of those conversations, but it is just natural that, you know, whatever we believe, we would want our kids to be instilled in and grow up in, and we believe that it's the best agent for their future.
	And ultimately, we want to see them become who God has created them to be as well, and, you know, give them the freedom to do that.
	So do you have any siblings?
	I do.
	I have four brothers and one sister.
	Oh, wow.
	OK.
	So big family.
	How have they been taking all of this?
	Well, they've definitely gotten a little attention, too.
	And not just from all of these different things that have happened, but from me becoming an NBA player, for sure.
	So they're loving it.
	They love that they're brothers in the NBA.
	And do you have any relationship with your dad now?
	Yes, yes I do.
	I actually was just back in New York shooting some stuff for my brand that's going to be coming out soon, Judah Collection.
	I was able to go to the house that I grew up in and see my dad, and me coming to faith was a huge part of me, you know, kind of mending my relationship with him, and that's in the book as well.
	So you're launching brands and you're launching books.
	What is sort of your long-term vision for your career?
	Because obviously you want to get back to playing.
	You're still young in your career.
	This whole journey has happened before you've really had a chance to play significant minutes in the NBA.
	You played some your rookie year and then you got injured and now you're going to come back next year.
	What's your kind of long-term vision here?
	You know, I actually have no idea, and I think that that's a good thing.
	What I've tried my best to do is just be obedient to where God is taking me and asking of me to do, but I have no clue.
	Before I came to faith, and this is something that I always tell young people or just people that I'm talking to, that God wasn't trying to take anything away from me.
	Like, the fun that I was having, or that I thought I was having, He wasn't trying to take that away.
	He was trying to get something to me.
	And now the fact that I'm writing a book, and the book is going to become a movie, and I'm working on the second book, and a brand, and all these different things, I'm like, all of that God had for me, but it was a part of me accepting Him as Lord and Savior, and walking down the road to becoming what He created me to be.
	And so, that's where I'm at.
	I don't know what's next, but I'm hopeful that, you know, it's more of what I've been able to do.
	So in my own life, my family became Orthodox in the Jewish community when I was maybe 11.
	So I didn't have any sort of sowing my wild oats period.
	I went directly from being an Orthodox kid to being an Orthodox adult.
	I do remember eating a Kentucky fried chicken that's about the extent of you know, the rebelliousness of my family because not eating kosher, then shifting over to eating kosher.
	But you obviously have sort of experienced the highs that secular society says are the things that you should value.
	Right.
	Money and sex and fame.
	Do you ever look back on that sort of stuff and say, oh, I miss aspects of that?
	Well, I think it's a human thing to do.
	At the end of the day, the world is right there.
	But again, as I look at all the things that I've been able to do in my life with the book and all that stuff, I have no regret.
	And my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner.
	And I had to go through some of the things that I went through during the time of me being out there in the world.
	But I'm thankful for the love of God, again, that went out and found me in my mess and what I was doing and nursed me back to health.
	So you've played against the best players in the NBA.
	Yeah.
	So who are the best players in the NBA?
	I mean, the ones that most people would say are, I think the hardest player that I've had to guard in my career has been KD.
	But, you know, LeBron and all those different guys as well are tough as well.
	Well, we're now in the middle of the NBA playoffs.
	So now I'm going to ask for your expert opinion on how the rest of the playoffs are going to go.
	I think whoever wins the Milwaukee-Boston series wins the championship.
	As a lifelong Celtics fan, I have to ask about the Lakers.
	We can always cut it out later, don't worry about it.
	Well, what's the future for LeBron, do you think?
	I mean, that team fell apart this year.
	I don't know.
	They just need more help.
	I think, you know, the vision that they had in the beginning could have worked, but it just didn't.
	And so, I'm not sure what direction they go from now in terms of Westbrook and other guys of how they kind of pull the thing back together, but they got some work to do.
	Generally speaking, with the NBA, how do you think the NBA can do a better job of reaching out to the casual fan or the people like me?
	I mean, frankly, I was alienated by a lot of the NBA's marketing over the course of the bubble period, where it seemed like if you did not share a particular political viewpoint, then you just weren't welcome.
	And every broadcast seemed to become a political disquisition.
	And believe me, I do politics all day long.
	I'm perfectly happy to watch MSNBC on occasion.
	But when sports sort of turned into a very polarized political topic, It was very alienating.
	I remember, you know, canceling subscription to Sports Illustrated years and years ago when I felt like sports was getting too political.
	What do you think the NBA should do about politics?
	Do you think it should become more apolitical or should be let a thousand flowers bloom?
	How should this work?
	I think it's a balance.
	I think entities like sports, like social media, other things like that should take a more apolitical stance and just allow inclusivity and people to share their ideas and thoughts as they see fit.
	But at the same time, it's their organization, and so they get to do kind of what they want to do with it and kind of let the consequences be what they are.
	If I was running it, I would try my best to be as in the middle as possible and allow people to share how they feel and hire that way or anything like that, but it's ultimately theirs.
	So you recently signed a new contract with the Magic.
	What's the relationship with the team like?
	You were drafted by the Magic?
	I was drafted by the Magic.
	It's totally just by the grace of God.
	Through the stand, through the injury, that I'm still there.
	They love me and I thank God for it and I'm just ready to get back on the court and do my thing.
	Given all of the controversy, has a lot of that settled?
	Or is there still some sort of remaining bad feeling, do you think, out there in the NBA?
	No, I don't think so.
	I think it definitely has settled a bit, and people are just getting back to playing ball, and that's what the NBA is.
	So I think we're good.
	I think maybe a little bit, I don't know, moving forward with some of the things that are happening in the world, but we'll just have to wait and see.
	Well, Jonathan, I'm really inspired by your story.
	I think a lot of our listeners and readers are going to be inspired by your story as well.
	The book, Why I Stand, is now widely available via DW Books.
	We're really proud to bring that to audiences everywhere.
	Honestly, it's a tough thing to stand up in front of a giant crowd of people, somebody with anxiety even more so, and really take a stand on a really crucial issue and make the country better in ways that I think very few people are able to do in an arena where pretty much nobody is willing to stand up.
	Jonathan, thanks so much for joining the show.
	It's been great having you here.
	Yes, sir.
	Thanks, man.
	Appreciate you.
	You can get Jonathan's full story in his new book, Why I Stand, available to purchase right now.
	As I say, we are excited that Daily Wire's publishing arm, DW Books, partnered with Jonathan to publish this awesome story.
	story, make sure to go out and get a copy of it yourself.
	The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday special is produced by Mathis Executive Producer Jeremy Boring.
	Production Manager Pavel Lydowsky.
	Associate Producer Justine Turley.
	Editing is by Jim Nickel.
	Audio is mixed by Mike Coromina.
	Hair and Makeup is by Fabiola Cristina.
	Title Graphics are by Cynthia Angulo.
	Production Assistant Jessica Crand.
	The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special is a Daily Wire production.

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