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April 14, 2019 - The Ben Shapiro Show
01:01:35
Lauren Chen | The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special Ep. 46
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Time Text
Overwhelmingly, millennials are in favor of socialism, or at least they have a very positive view of socialism.
Millennials don't know who people like Pol Pot or Stalin or Mao are, which is kind of, to me, what being a millennial is all about.
Like all of the enthusiasm with none of the knowledge.
Hey, hey, and welcome.
This is the Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special.
We have Lauren Chen from The Blaze TV joining us.
We'll get to her in just one second.
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Lauren, thanks so much for stopping by.
Thank you so much for having me.
So let's just jump right in with a little bit of your background.
For folks who don't know your work or how you became a host on Blaze TV, take me from what you were, which was sort of a YouTube host, to being on Blaze TV and having a large following and all of this.
Sure.
Well, I started my YouTube channel.
It's going to be three years ago in May, and I was just uploading videos once or twice a month just for fun.
There were little dinky slideshow presentations that I did about social issues.
I did one on the minimum wage, and it was really just a side hobby.
But eventually I started to get more subscribers and more popular and kind of got enough of a following where I could make that my full-time job.
And then last year I ended up starting a show with CRTV, which is now the Blaze TV.
And so, yeah, right now we do three episodes a week.
Everything's on YouTube for people to see if they want to subscribe to Lauren Chen.
And yeah, we kind of talk about cultural issues more so than political ones right now, just because I feel like as someone who is a millennial, who's trying to reach out to people around my age, The cultural issues are really where most of the focus is when we're talking about what affects people in their day-to-day lives on social media, in their college classes, the films and stuff they have to deal with.
So you're a genuine millennial.
I'm like the very tail end of the millennials.
I get to technically slide in right under the wire.
You're a millennial millennial.
How old are you?
I am 24.
Okay.
So it's still okay to ask me that.
I'm young enough where it's not.
Right, it's not insulting.
I knew that it wasn't insulting so I could ask you that.
So how did you become conservative at age 24?
Um, so growing up I was, my family was pretty apolitical.
I mean, we didn't really talk about politics.
I grew up in Asia, so the politics wouldn't have been the same anyway, but we didn't really talk about anything to do with, like, taxes or anything like that, but just socially I came from a family.
Maybe it's, you know, the Asian dad influence that I have that was just very pro-family, pro-hard work, pro-individual responsibility.
Um, so I think socially I was always kind of naturally conservative, and then when I started to get into politics just on my own, I feel like those values just
Natural anthem self to me being you know pro individual liberty and freedom ie conservative So I mean when I started college at 17 I was in the college Republicans at USC one of I think like 35 of us out of a campus of 60,000 so yeah, I never really had a moment where I Was liberal and then changed which I think is maybe rare for people who are my age And I think a lot of that just had to do with
You know, my family's outlook on things, rather than, I don't like to think that I'm brainwashed, but I was just raised with a certain set of values that I think, when translated into government, do favor conservatism over liberalism.
So I'm going to ask you a version of a question that I get all the time.
I get asked all the time, because I'm Jewish, why do so many Jews vote for the left?
So I'm going to ask you, why do so many folks who are Asian vote for Democrats, considering that it is a lot of Democratic policies that seem to be cutting against the interests of a lot of Asian folks who are the number one earning Why do you think that's happening?
I think it's happening because the left has very, very, I mean, intelligently crafted a narrative where people say that Republicans and conservatives are racist.
They hate immigrants, they hate Asian people, so it only makes sense to vote for Democrats.
Which is frustrating because if you actually talk to, I mean, people in the Asian community, I mean, they're pro-small business.
So many Asian immigrants own small businesses themselves.
You know, socially, they're also conservative.
There's not really much in the Democratic platform that appeals to Asian people en masse, aside from the idea that conservatives are racist and hate them for their skin color, which is obviously false.
So, I mean, it's...
I like to try and bring up as much as possible how, like you said, Democrats and progressives, they really aren't for Asians because Asians are...
I mean, if we're looking at the oppression hierarchy, doing even better than white people...
So we see, I mean, time and time again when it comes to things like affirmative action, they're happy to throw Asians under the bus for the interests of, like, other more special minority groups.
It's actually, it's really frustrating me that so many Asians are, I don't know, falling for it.
So you have a multi-ethnic background.
You've lived in a lot of countries other than the United States.
Has that shaped your view of both the United States generally and then race in the United States?
Contrasting, you've lived in Canada, you've lived obviously in Asia.
How does that shape your view of the United States?
And then on sort of the racial polarization scale, where do you think the U.S.
is right now?
Well, I mean, economically, the way living in Asia has shaped my point of view.
I mean, I've lived in Singapore and Shanghai and Hong Kong, obviously very economically prosperous places and cities.
But I've also visited places like Thailand and Indonesia, which are developing countries.
So my background, what it means to me is that I understand what actual poverty looks like.
Not millennial, I have college loans therefore I think capitalism is broken type poverty.
So I think that perspective has been really important to me because you hear a lot of Democrats who are essentially socialists now disparaging capitalism and saying that the American dream is dead.
I mean, if you look at other countries, the U.S.
is doing extraordinarily well.
There's no denying that.
So I think that perspective has been important.
And in terms of race relations, it's funny because, you know, growing up, obviously, I've been mixed race the entire time.
There's never a time where I was not mixed race.
It's just been part of my reality.
It was never something that I really thought about.
I never thought it was strange.
It was just like, yeah, my mom's white and Canadian.
My dad's Chinese.
It is what it is.
I'm both.
The first time I was really confronted with I don't know.
The American interpretation of race was when I found myself on American campus.
And I realized how, although the U.S.
is absolutely one of the least racist places I've ever been, and I think, you know, when they do studies about approval rates for things like interracial marriages, it's consistently one of the least racist places in the world.
There's no denying that.
But it is also one of the places that's most obsessed with race, which is really, really strange to me.
For the amount of actual racists there are in the United States, i.e.
very few, it seems like we're talking about race a disproportionate amount.
So, before you were sort of the pseudo-intellectual, that's the name of your show, over at Blaze TV, you were a roaming millennial, so your brand is very tied into the millennials.
What is it the millennials are not getting about American politics that so many of them are trending towards socialism and radicalism and intersectionality?
Well, it's funny because we've done videos about this.
If you look at polls, overwhelmingly millennials are in favor of socialism, or at least they have a very positive view of socialism.
But if you actually probe them a little bit deeper, most or at least a good number of millennials don't know who people like Pol Pot or Stalin or Mao are.
So it's funny because we're very warm towards socialism as an ideology, but at the same time we don't know anything about socialism as an ideology.
Which is kind of, to me, what being a millennial is all about.
Like, all of the enthusiasm with none of the knowledge.
So I think if we kind of try to break down millennial politics, it's all about trying to do what feels good and what seems fair and righteous, but that's not necessarily backed up in history and economic fact.
And I think ultimately it's a failure of education.
Millennials don't know enough about the world and the system that they're soon going to be in charge of running, and that's scary.
What do you think is the best way for conservatives to reach out?
So obviously we're both speaking to a young audience, a disproportionately young audience.
My feeling has been that a lot of conservative leaders have not actually done the hard work of talking about ideas.
It's been a lot of sort of follow the leader.
Where do you think conservatives can do better?
Where is their upside for conservatives in talking to young people?
Well, I think if we look at Gen Z right now, they are more conservative than any generation's been in a long time, and I think we really need to capitalize on that.
But I don't think we can win the battle of ideas without engaging in culture more than we have in the past.
I mean, people like you are doing a great job because Without conservative commentators, you have to understand the average millennial, the school that they go to, it's preaching progressivism.
The media that they watch, the films and TV series that they watch, it's all enforcing this one idea.
So unless we have any media of our own to kind of counter it, then it's just natural that these people are going to end up believing what everyone else around them is saying, which is that the U.S.
is an oppressor, capitalism is evil, socialism is what's fair, etc., etc.
In the future, I think, if we actually want things to be a bit more balanced in terms of what children are learning growing up, and I'm not saying that we need to counteract liberal brainwashing with conservative brainwashing, but we do need to try and make school more about learning ideas and critical thinking rather than just feeding them regurgitated talking points.
One of the things that I've found is sort of a gap between young conservatives and older conservatives is on the issue of President Trump.
So it seems like a lot of older conservatives are very, you know, very much believers in everything that President Trump does.
They've decided in many cases that his foibles and his personality I like President Trump a lot, and I'm not going to try to make excuses for everything he's ever tweeted.
I would hate that job.
I mean, I don't know how the people in his press office do it.
Thinking about it just gives me anxiety.
How do you grade President Trump so far?
And what's the best way to talk about President Trump to young people?
I like President Trump a lot.
And I'm not going to try to make excuses for everything he's ever tweeted.
I would hate that job.
I mean, I don't know how the people in his press office do it.
Thinking about it just gives me anxiety.
But I think he's done a very good job in terms of what he's promised and things that haven't been delivered upon, like health care reform and the wall, for example.
I don't see as exclusively his fault.
So overall, I'm a big supporter.
And I think when it comes to trying to talk about him to young people, it It's about trying to strike a balance between, alright, do you want someone who has all of the ideals that we wish Trump had, but is ineffective and nothing done policy-wise, or do you want someone who, for all of his faults, is doing more to progress a conservative agenda in government than anyone has in a long time?
And it's not a perfect choice.
Not the best choice that I wish people had, but it is ultimately the situation that we're in.
And I think when we're talking to young conservatives, I've found that they like President Trump because he's not afraid to tackle things like the mainstream media.
I mean, I'm not saying he does it with the most nuance and tact, but he's at least not afraid to talk about it.
He's not afraid to talk about things like trade deals or instances where the US is maybe I'm not sure being taken advantage of is the right term, but maybe not having a fair deal.
And ultimately I think young people do appreciate that he's willing to engage in meme culture.
You know, the wall is coming meme, that was very popular.
I mean, for folks who don't understand, maybe you can sort of explain to people what exactly meme culture is.
I know there's a subsection of the audience that knows, but maybe you can sort of define this, because this is a very millennial thing.
Yeah, okay, so memes are kind of an inside joke that everybody is in on.
And we see, like, leading up to 2016, that memes were a large part of how millennials were engaging in the political conversation.
You know, they're taking things that different candidates have said and making it into a joke.
And, you know, to a lot of people who are like, no, we need to focus on policy, blah, blah, blah, that may seem immature and childish, which I'm not saying that it's not, but it's a way that people are able to, I don't know, feel more a part of the conversation and to engage and to make it into almost almost like a joke or something fun that people can get interested in.
So it's not exactly the highest form of political participation, but it is something.
And so for young people, and I think Trump understands this, we're very into whatever's on social media.
So politics, if it wants to survive and specific candidates as well, then they need to be willing to engage in that social media presence, which Trump is for better or worse.
We also see candidates like AOC having a lot of success there, Beto as well, and actually Dan Crenshaw is one of the few conservatives I think that really gets how important it is to have a presence on places like Twitter.
So can you explain, I think for folks, you've talked about AOC's popularity and the fact that she's quite popular.
You know, I get the feeling you're irritated by it the same way that I am.
But what exactly do you think it is that makes her popular, for example?
What differentiates her from the typical politician?
Well, I mean, she's younger, obviously, she checks all the right demographic, you know, she's not white, she's a woman, she's a millennial, so that all looks good for them.
But also, I mean, for all of her faults, which she obviously has a lot of them in terms of just knowledge of how economics work, she is at least addressing issues that matter to millennials.
And I think You know, policy-wise, Republicans can talk about things like, you know, business regulations and income tax breaks, and that's great and for a large part of the population that's going to resonate with them, but when you're talking about Millennials specifically, it's like, look, most Millennials, or at least a good amount of them, probably not paying income tax to begin with.
Most of them, not small business owners, so that doesn't affect them.
What does affect them?
Things like healthcare and, you know, college debt.
They care about the environment.
For better or worse, AOC is talking about those issues, which Republicans, by and large, are not.
And not only is she talking about them, but she's doing it on Instagram Live, which millennials love.
So it's kind of natural that people are flocking to her.
So let's talk about climate change for a second, because obviously this has been a very popular point of view for her, at least among young people.
Not so popular among anyone else, considering it got zero votes in the Senate.
And her poll numbers, by the way, for all of her popularity among a subset, her poll numbers have basically tanked.
Her poll numbers, she's well below 50% in sort of popularity polling.
She has high name recognition.
People are beginning, I think, to grow irritated with her.
But there's been a lot of talk in the Democratic Party about climate change.
How do you think conservatives ought to talk about climate change?
Because it seems like particularly older conservatives are simply denying that it's taking place.
Or they suggest that the science is so deeply flawed that there's no way to know.
And then there's sort of another wing, and I count myself among this wing, of folks who Well, I'm definitely one of those people who loves the environment.
I don't like pollution.
that are being posed by the left are not only foolish, they're counterproductive.
What do you think is the best way to talk about the climate change issue with young people?
Well, I'm definitely one of those people who loves the environment.
I don't like pollution.
I would like to consider myself a conservationist.
And I think the issue with the environment right now is that the issue with climate change isn't, I mean, in my opinion, whether or not the climate is going to change in such a way that we're all dead in 12 years, which I really don't think it is.
But even without that, pollution is still not a good thing.
So I think we need to be focused more on pollution, which we have, you know, effects, or sorry, we have evidence about what the short-term effects are to the environment.
Rather than trying to predict what may or may not happen in 10, 15, whatever years.
Because I'm like you, I do believe that mankind is contributing to climate change.
But I think what we've seen time and time again are that the predictive models they've tried to graph have not been accurate.
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't care about the environment though.
And I think what Republicans and conservatives should try to do is put forth solutions or methods of trying to address pollution.
that are not just full on socialism or communism.
Let's implement UBI and get rid of all the planes, which is what, you know, AOC is trying to do.
So I think things like solar, there's been a lot of developments in solar energy in the private sector that make it very appealing for individuals just to, because of, you know, their own interests or their own budget, install in their own homes.
I think conservatives should be trying to encourage people in, you know, free market, private enterprise types of ways to do what they can as individuals to combat climate change.
Because otherwise, you know, if the Democrats are the only people talking about it, then I think a lot of especially young people are going to think that it's, you know, If you want to do something, anything for the planet, then you have to vote for them because Republicans don't care, which I don't think is true.
There are a lot of Republicans who do care about the planet.
So to second, I'm going to ask you because you are both a biological woman and identify as a woman.
I think you're making some assumptions there, sir.
OK, well, that's awkward then.
But I'm going to ask you about some women's issues in just a second.
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Alrighty, so let's talk about the fact that you are a woman.
And as a woman, this means that you have great insight into a wide variety of issues to which I apparently cannot speak.
I have been told by many.
So let's talk about the fact that women in the West have it better than any women in the history of humanity, and yet polls seem to show that women are becoming less and less happy over time.
Why do you think that is happening?
I think it's because feminism has spun a narrative that tells women that they're oppressed and that men are the oppressors and that the only way for them to gain independence and freedom and liberation and I think therefore happiness is to kind of break free from all of the institutions that have ironically Ensured that the West has become such a great place, things like marriage and motherhood.
And it's actually pretty depressing to me to look at that because I place so much value on femininity and womanhood and anything that goes with that, that it hurts me on a personal level to see feminism just so keen to, I guess, disparage and dismiss what traditionally has made women kind of the moral gatekeepers of societies in a lot of ways.
I mean, it is truly puzzling to me.
I'm married, obviously, I have a couple of kids, and my wife, who is a doctor, also... I hadn't heard.
Yeah, she also spends a fair bit of time at home with the kids, and as soon as she's done with her residency, it'll be a wildly increased amount of time at home with the kids, and that's what she wants to do.
I'm always puzzled by the feminist argument that women are happier if they're not married and they don't have kids.
I've yet to see evidence of this proposal at work.
No, there really isn't any.
And what's so scary, I think, to think of is that among my mom's friends especially, she does know a lot of women who she's been working with.
And throughout their 20s and 30s, early 30s rather, they were happy to dedicate their entire lives to their career.
They were saying, yeah, I don't need kids.
I don't need a husband.
Happy just myself.
But the thing with women is that when it comes to childbearing, unlike men, we do have a little bit of a, you know, like an expiration date where we need to get going on things if we want children to happen.
Unfortunately for a lot of women, once they're at the point in their lives where they realize, wait, motherhood is something that I want, a family is something that I want, for a lot of these women by the time that they actually try to find a husband and settle down and all that, It's maybe too late for them to have children.
So that's what I think is so dangerous about feminism is because they're feeding women this lie that they don't need marriage or a husband.
And by the time a lot of these women realize it's not true, it's going to be too late for them.
And I think a lot of women don't realize that, you know, pregnancy after 35, I'm not saying it doesn't happen or it can't happen, but it is medically a lot harder and more complicated than when you're younger.
So I want to ask you just, I'm going to throw out a couple of terms.
I want to get your reaction to them because these have become very hot button issues in our society.
So the first term is rape culture.
And this is something that you hear about a lot on college campuses.
People suggesting that we live in a rape culture.
Democratic candidates for president suggesting that rape culture is predominant.
What do you think of that phrase and where do you think we stand on all of this?
Well, I think rape culture is conceptually a real thing.
I think it's possible to have a culture that either is condoning of or complicit in rape.
I don't think that's Western culture, though.
I mean, if I were to think of what rape culture is, Honestly, Sharia law seems a lot more close to that, where women can actually be punished for being sexually assaulted, which is obviously not what Western law is about.
But, you know, it's funny to me for all of the complaining that feminism does about how rapey, misogynistic Western culture is, if we actually look at Hollywood culture or, you know, hip-hop or rap culture, That's where women are being objectified, right?
It's not the Christian conservatives who are objectifying women.
I mean, watch any rap video and you're gonna see a lot more objectification than something that happens on the Christian news network or whatever.
So that to me is a huge, huge double standard.
These feminists, they're happy to complain about people like Mike Pence, but then they'll have, you know, all these hip-hop artists, people like Jay-Z, campaigning for Hillary Clinton as if they're some great, you know, respecters of women, which is absolutely not true.
So, I mean, I don't think the progressive movement, the feminist movement actually cares about respecting women.
I think they care about being anti-religious conservatives whenever convenient.
If I were to choose a place where I would feel most uncomfortable as a woman alone, it would probably be the streets of, I don't know, any liberal part of California rather than, you know, a suburban place where people are by and large conservatives.
I mean, this is one of the things that has always puzzled me about the left's claim to be great defenders of women, is saying people who are against concealed carry, which seems to me the only way that women, in many cases, can even the odds against men who are trying to target them.
No, it's true.
And the left will similarly suggest that women should simply ignore realities of life.
If you are in a riskier situation or you put yourself in a riskier situation, you are therefore more at risk.
That is not to justify the activity of evil men, but if I'm to walk in a high-crime area waving my wallet around, that would not be a wise move, even if the person who robbed me is morally responsible for that.
If you say the same thing about getting drunk at a bar and going home with a guy, then this is considered sexist in some way.
And frankly, I don't understand the argument or how this protects women.
No, it doesn't at all, and I think the mistake that they're making is that these—and they really do act like this—that men who are rapists just don't know that they're rapists, right?
That's why they have all these courses on college campuses that don't rape courses, as if you could take, like, an 18-year-old male who for some reason thinks it's okay to rape and just tell him, oh, by the way, it's not, and he would be like, oh.
I didn't know.
Well then, there goes my evening plans.
This is a problem that goes deeper than that.
So, I mean, telling a woman that she shouldn't need to defend herself because we'll just tell men not to rape is like saying, oh well, there's no point in locking your doors because people shouldn't be robbing you.
Obviously people shouldn't be robbing you, but that doesn't mean that you don't try to protect yourself.
And this unwillingness on the part of the left to take I mean, to be proactive in terms of protecting themselves I think is also why they're so misguided on issues like the border and border security.
They really do live in a lot of ways in this fantasy utopia where everyone is good and if you just tell people, hey, stop that, then they'll listen and everything will be fine.
I mean, that kind of expansion of call-out culture, I feel, is sort of behind what's going on with, for example, Joe Biden.
There's been no actual allegation that Joe Biden sexually assaulted or even harassed anybody, and yet Joe Biden is now being treated as apparently a sexual leper by a certain wing of the Democratic Party.
It's kind of ironic to watch some Democrats come and defend that after they did the same thing to Brett Kavanaugh.
But what do you make of the Joe Biden allegations?
How seriously should we take allegations that he was handsy with women and putting, smelling their hair and stuff like that?
Well, I think it's not just allegations that he was smelling their hair.
We have footage where he was being weird.
Is it enough to say that he was sexually molesting them?
I don't think so.
I think we've known for a while that he's kind of like your creepy uncle who touches your hair and is weird.
That doesn't necessarily mean he's a rapist.
I don't think we've seen enough evidence to suggest that.
But I think what's happening is that it's not that all of a sudden, after all of his years in the spotlight, people are just like morally indignant about him touching women the way he is.
I think what's happening is that he's polling very well in terms of the other presidential hopeful candidates.
And he does not, I guess, fit what they're trying to go for in terms of the oppression hierarchy, right?
Because I think right now the top contenders are people like Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders, who are obviously white, male, and old.
So I think right now what we're seeing is that they're willing to take shots at their own team if it means getting someone more intersectional to the top, someone like Kamala Harris or Cory Booker.
So let me give you another phrase here.
Believe all women.
So we've heard this one a lot.
And as a woman, maybe you could speak to whether we should believe all women, under what circumstances we should believe all women.
What exactly should that phrase mean?
What does it mean?
Well, I think the thing with being a woman is that ovaries are not magical truth-telling orbs that prevent us from lying.
That is not how that works.
And I think a lot of where the believe-all-women type of thing stems from is that if someone comes to you and they claim that they're a survivor of rape or assault, You want to provide them with like comfort and care and etc, etc.
Don't say that they're asking for it or whatever, which of course is true.
If someone were personally to come to me and say that something terrible had happened to them, I would want to comfort them and on a personal level be there for them, offer them assistance, whatever they needed.
But when we're talking about a court of law and not just believing someone's own personal experience that something bad had happened to them, but then taking that allegation And saying that someone is guilty of assaulting another person, that's a different story.
And I think when we look at what happened with the whole Brett Kavanaugh thing, no, a woman's statement is not enough to completely ruin a man's career or life.
Because the thing with Western culture is that we take rape seriously.
Being called a rapist is one of the worst things that someone could be.
I think you'd agree, right?
Like, that's awful.
And it's because we take such a strong stance against rape that we need to be very, very careful with believing statements that don't have any backing.
Now, I think when I say stuff like that, I always get the issue like, okay, what about the Weinsteins of the world?
Or, you know, who was the comedian?
He was recently convicted, I think.
Well, Louis C.K.
was kind of ousted.
No, the one from the 80s.
Oh, Bill Cosby.
Yeah, yeah.
Bill Cosby.
Yeah.
I can tell you're young when you're forgetting Bill Cosby's name.
Yeah.
Bill Cosby.
People like that.
You know, I mean, it's the kind of thing that's like any crime.
Don't believe any gossip you hear.
But if there's actually, like, substantiated accounts that go back for a while and individual witnesses that are able to corroborate, then that's one thing.
But what we're seeing is that, especially in the age of social media, a single tweet or Facebook post is enough to ruin people's lives.
And I think we really need to Okay, so here's another term for you, and you've been very critical of this one.
Hookup culture.
So we've moved away from a relationship-based culture and toward more sexual freedom.
You're very critical of hookup culture.
is if people are filing police reports that end up being proven to be false, there definitely needs to be some sort of penalty for that.
Okay, so let's, here's another term for you, and you've been very critical of this one, hookup culture.
So we've moved away from a relationship-based culture and toward more sexual freedom.
You're very critical of hookup culture.
Why?
I'm critical of hookup culture because I'm pro-woman.
And I think ultimately hookup culture is not good for women.
And I'm not saying that any woman who goes out and sleeps with someone has been victimized or that her life is ruined or anything like that, no.
But I think that women are not the same as men.
It's obvious.
We know this scientifically.
Sex does not have the same meaning for men by and large as it does for women.
And, you know, trying to teach women that they can go out and have sex with an unending number of men and it's not going to affect them emotionally or psychologically is actually not true.
We've seen studies that promiscuity has lasting effects on both genders, but especially women.
It can lead to things like depression, low self-esteem and things like that.
And actually, they've done studies where they look at the total number of sexual partners women have had before marriage.
And it does affect her likelihood of getting divorced.
So, I mean, I get called a prude and stuff.
And that's not what this is about.
But I think if we want women to be making informed decisions with their own lives, which I would have thought feminism should be about, then we need to be realistic about what hookup culture does mean.
I mean, not to mention the fact that with STDs and things, and actually if you want women to be protected from things like sexual abuse and harassment, I think part of that is not putting yourself in dangerous positions.
So it's so weird.
Like we live in an era where it's deemed too personal to call people on the phone versus texting, yet going into a club and sleeping with a stranger is totally fine.
It's like we kind of need to reevaluate where our moral compass is at.
I mean, this has always been puzzling to me.
When you watch TV now, there's a vast difference between how sex is treated.
It used to be that the way that things typically went in the movies was you fall in love with somebody, you marry them, and then there's a cut to the curtains, right?
And now, the way that it works is that people hop in the sack with each other, and then there's this awkward moment in every sitcom where after they've slept together, one of them turns to them and says, I love you.
And that's the real, that's the intimacy.
That's where everyone's like, oh no, you said I love, well that's just, wow, that's too intimate.
You just had sex with the person.
And I think the thing with hookup culture is that I'm actually... I've had feminists kind of like smirk at this, but actually I really hate when men behave gross toward women.
I hate lewd behavior.
I hate it.
Like, I will leave a situation if that's happening.
And I think what frustrates me about hookup culture is that a lot of guys are being rewarded that way because it does work on some women, which makes it just unpleasant for the rest of us.
So I would like...
And again, people are going to be like, oh, you're such a prude, but I would like sex to mean something in our culture.
And especially, you know, I'm pro-life and I think part of the pro-life argument shouldn't involve the fact that unplanned pregnancies are happening way too often and they shouldn't be happening as often as they are.
And they've actually done studies and, you know, women who encounter unplanned pregnancies who are Married in serious relationships, they're a lot less likely to even seek out that abortion because, you know, they have stability there with a partner that they can depend on.
So, you know, for those reasons, for family, for women, for children, I just think that we really need to rein back the crazy, like, pro-sex, sex positive, whatever they're calling it, rollercoaster we've been on.
Also worth noting, just for the record, social science statistics tend to show that women in committed relationships have more and better sex than women who are not in committed relationships because women are actually seeking emotional intimacy and comfort as opposed to men who tend to seek variety for evolutionary reasons.
So let's talk a little bit about dating.
So you are now engaged, so let's have some advice for young women who are looking to get engaged, who are looking to get married.
What exactly should they be looking for in a guy?
Um, be with a guy that wants the same things that you want.
I think a lot of guys out there, a lot of women out there too, unfortunately, they're not looking for things like marriage or children or whatever.
I've been called too picky for saying this, but it's absolutely true.
If you are committed to getting married and having kids, then you need to be looking for someone who wants the same things that you do.
So, you know, there are a lot of great people out there, and there are a lot of guys you might meet and date and have fun with.
But at the end of the day, if he's not interested in marriage and children, then don't think that you can change him into being whoever you want.
So definitely prioritize someone who wants the same things that you do in life.
It seems to me that for a lot of young women who I see who are unhappy, this is true for young men too, but it's certainly true for young women, that a lot of the unhappiness springs from a certain war with reality.
That men are not what they want men to be.
What do you think it is that women don't generally understand about men?
Like if you had to sum up men as a half of the species in a few sentences, what do you think it is that men are, what do men want?
I think men ultimately, and this is probably not true for a good number of men who have, like women, been influenced by third wave feminism, but men traditionally have wanted to be protectors and providers for their families.
So I think ultimately a lot of women my age, we look at men and we might see that kind of behavior as, I don't know, belittling or benevolently sexist or things like that, which is too bad because I think relationships work best when people aren't the same but rather when they complement each other.
So I think with men, women kind of need to be a little bit more aware that he's not just going to be like one of your girlfriends.
He's going to be different and that's okay.
And you shouldn't be trying to make him into one of your girlfriends or make him as feminine as possible.
Relationships work best when you accept the other person.
It doesn't mean you're going to think they're perfect in any way.
But don't try to fundamentally change the personality or beliefs of your partner because that's just not going to work.
And what do you think it is that young men don't understand about women?
Because obviously we're seeing people getting married later and later.
That's having some pretty terrible consequences for the society, less responsibility taking.
But what do men not get about women?
If you could tell guys out there what to expect from women, what exactly would you be telling them?
This is a really hard question because I look at modern women and I feel like I don't understand them.
And I forget who said this quote, but what is it?
The only people who understand women are other women and they hate them.
So I was like, I don't really know what to say to that.
But I think for men, if you can find a woman who's got similar values as you, then I think something that I know I'm really happy my fiancé understands about me is that we are not going to have the same Like, we're not going to have the same, I guess, outlook as you guys do when it comes to things like money and career, and that's okay, right?
Because I notice even, like, I'll have people in interviews ask me, like, where do you want to be in, like, five years or ten years?
And honestly, all of my plans long-term revolve around family and relationships.
And, you know, for a while I would feel really bad about that, but it's like...
Well, that's, you know, I'm a young woman who wants to get married and have kids and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
And I think men nowadays, a lot of men do find that kind of strange, but it's, I mean, historically it's really par for the course.
Yeah, well, one of the things that I've found also when it comes to relationships, and this actually is a great observation by Andrew Klavan, another one of the hosts over here, is that when people are dating, there's this constant refrain, I can't find Mrs. Right, I can't find Mr. Right.
And he's always saying, well, if you're looking for Miss Right, maybe you're not Mr. Right.
Maybe you need to make yourself better in some way.
How do you think that men should train themselves to be more attractive to women?
How do you think they should train themselves to be more masculine?
Oh, I've done videos about this and I've made a lot of people really angry because I've done dating videos and anytime I do, I get a lot of really angry, for lack of a better word... I mean, even self-avowed incels or MGTOW people who say I have no right to be giving advice to anybody on this because I am a female and young and I look a certain way, so therefore I should... But anyway, you've asked me, so I feel like... You've asked me, I'm blaming you.
The incels can attack me.
They do anyway, it's fine.
I think ultimately women, and studies have shown this, are attracted to things like confidence and success.
And if you're a guy who is looking for a girlfriend, honestly the best thing that you can do is be comfortable and assured with yourself.
Don't, I guess, put on fake confidence, but become the type of person where you have actual traits and accomplishments that you can genuinely be confident about.
So that goes for school or even personal achievement.
Be someone who is happy and upbeat.
who provides and is a benefit to your friends and family.
That's something that I think any girl is gonna be attracted to. - And on the other side, what's your advice for young women who are looking for somebody?
How to improve themselves, that they're more attractive to men if they're interested in getting married? - You know what's funny?
I have a lot of male viewers and anytime I talk about dating I am shocked and made so sad by the number of them who say that what they really want is a girl to settle down with, to have kids with, but so many females that they're around have really bought into the whole third-way feminism thing.
So they're not looking for families or a serious relationship even or children.
So I think if you are a girl who's interested in that, don't be afraid of talking about it.
I know it's like this taboo now where you're not supposed to even mention the word marriage early on in a relationship.
And I'm not saying to try to get married on the first date, but don't be afraid of people knowing that, yeah, you want to get married.
You're dating with purpose.
Because some guys might be scared off by that, but the right type of guy will see that as a positive.
So it's great.
It's kind of like a self-fulfilling thing.
You're going to get rid of all the people who aren't interested in the same things that you are.
Yeah, well I totally agree with this.
In fact, I will say, you should talk marriage on the first date because otherwise there's no reason to be dating in the first place.
I'm frankly confused by people who date for fun.
Like, I understand if you're just looking for sex, okay, I get it, but if you are dating for fun, I'm not sure what's fun about dating.
No, I hate dating.
I get super nervous.
My palms are sweaty.
It's really bad.
I hate it.
And it's the same thing when my fiancé and I started dating.
You know, we didn't get engaged really soon.
It's not like we were rushing things.
But yeah, in the first few dates, how many kids do you want?
Okay, that's cool.
Do you plan on keeping your own last name?
No?
Good.
You know, that kind of thing.
So at least we can see that we're on the same page before it's worth going further.
Because otherwise, I feel really bad for these women who kind of spend five years in a relationship and then like, oh yeah, he didn't actually want to get married.
And it's like, Dating is not supposed to be comfortable.
Yeah.
Dating is supposed to be uncomfortable because it is, in fact, a testing process of the other person to determine whether this is someone you want to spend the rest of your life with.
And if you're too comfortable dating, then I would suggest either you don't have enough stake in the person you are dating because you don't want to marry them, or you're not taking dating itself seriously enough.
I remember I didn't date my wife for very long.
We've now been married for almost 11 years.
She was 20 at the time.
I was 23 when we first met.
And we dated for three and a half months before we were engaged.
And I was ready to get married two and a half months in, I remember.
And she knew that, and so she held off on saying, I love you to me, because she knew as soon as she said, I love you, I was going to say, OK, so let's get married.
And I remember when that finally happened, when I said, let's get married, she said, why can't we just enjoy this time?
And I said, because I'm not enjoying this time.
This time is terrible.
Let's get married, and then that's when the fun happens.
And that happens to be true.
There's this myth that I think has been created by unhappy married people, in some cases, about the wonders of single life.
And I failed to see the wonders of single life.
I was single.
It sucked.
Being married is much better. - Yeah, and I think part of the reason why people are kind of delaying marriage or even not getting married at all is because marriage used to be, it used to mean something, right?
I'm excited to get married because I wanna live with my husband/fiance.
I want that, that's gonna be fun.
I wanna be able to have kids.
But nowadays, I mean, people are living together People are having kids without being married.
So from that standpoint, they're like, well, why bother to get married?
And it's like, well, because there is still something special to marriage.
And I get a lot of, you know, people who are cohabiting that get mad at me when I say that.
But if you look at the, you know, the abuse rates of cohabiting couples and not just that, but the, I guess, like rates of staying together of cohabiting couples, it is not a synonym for marriage at all.
There is a difference.
That's right.
I mean, once you've actually put some skin in the game, which is what marriage is, that's a very different thing.
Cohabiting is still leaving the window open in case you feel like climbing out in the middle from my generalized perspective.
Not true for every specific, true in general.
So let's talk about your religious background, because you used to be an atheist, now you're a religious person.
So what's your religious background?
Um, so I grew up in sort of like a Christmas-Easter Catholic household.
I mean, I would have said that I was Catholic.
I went to Bible studies when I was a kid.
I drew, like, crayon Jesuses.
I have memories of that.
But ultimately, like, I could never...
Remember like really having any deep religious thoughts or spiritual thoughts and that was kind of me younger than growing up I when I was 13, I remember I started this like angsty atheist phase I was reading like Richard Dawkins and I just thought I knew better than everybody Like yeah, all these religious scholars from like thousands of years ago.
They don't know what I know.
Okay?
I'm a 13-year-old atheist, so pretty big deal.
So that was me, and I really thought that I knew better than everybody.
And I was quite obnoxious during those years, but as I got older, I started to be interested in philosophy a little bit more.
So I started reading people like Plato and Aristotle.
And it's funny, I actually became sort of a deist before I circled back to Christianity at all.
But, you know, theories like the theory of the cave, unmoved mover, it made me start questioning things.
And it's not, you know, there's this belief that if you're religious, you're anti-science.
I'm not anti-science, but I think ultimately science is the how but not the why.
We can believe in the Big Bang Theory, but still think, OK, well, then what was the catalyst for that?
Then what was before that?
Right.
Because ultimately, science is not it's not a system that can explain to us anything qualitative or explain why.
So I started to be a little bit more open to the idea of a creator God.
And then as I got a little bit older still, I started exploring things like, you know, St.
Aquinas, and I got more interested in the Bible.
And what's interesting about Christianity is that if you believe in the ultimate good, like the theory of forms, which is...
A big part of my philosophical belief even now, you can't help but recognize that human beings or the world around us, we fall short in so many ways of attaining that perfect, that ultimate good.
Christianity, really it's the backbone of I think all Abrahamic religions, they recognize that fault and they try to find a solution to it.
Like why are humans falling short?
What can we do to become perfect?
I mean, ultimately, the trouble that I think a lot of atheists have is that they recognize that we aren't perfect, that society isn't perfect, but they don't have an answer for it, right?
Oftentimes, the answer is, okay, well, maybe more government, that will make us perfect, or, you know, maybe this medicine, this drug, then we'll be perfect.
They're trying to find all of these solutions, but I think, ultimately, Christianity, for me, is the only philosophy or theology where I can say that makes the most sense.
And so that, when I was 16 or 17, I became a born-again Christian.
And I think since then it's been, you know, you always try to grow in your faith, but it's, you know, it's a struggle.
You go back, you go forward sometimes.
And I, for the most part of my channel, I never really talked about being a Christian.
And I only really started talking about it fairly recently because I realized that there are so many people out there, and this is kind of depressing, who have such a negative view of religion or And the United States, the West in general, is still a majority of people profess some sort of religious affiliation, but if you were to I guess judge things based off of YouTube or Twitter comments, you wouldn't know that.
You would think they're the minority and that everyone's an atheist.
So for me, talking about things like religion, spirituality, or faith, it's a way to try and at least, this is going to sound weird, but normalize it.
Because there are so many young people, millennials especially, who have had no exposure to any type of religion.
So they're very much of the belief that religion is bad, religion makes you stupid.
If you're religious, that's because you've never opened a science book.
Like, evolution exists, checkmate!
I appreciate that.
So you're obviously self-educated in a lot of ways and it sounds like you did a lot of reading on your own.
faith as well because no one can call you stupid, right?
I mean, people can call you wrong, but they can't call you stupid.
Well, they try anyway, but thank you.
I appreciate that.
So you're obviously, you know, self-educated in a lot of ways and it sounds like you did a lot of reading on your own.
What would be your reading list for somebody who's looking to become educated about politics or philosophy?
Ooh, that's a hard one.
So, So I think if it comes to something like philosophy, then I would recommend reading The Republic.
So that my moniker for my channel used to be like Philosopher King because I was kind of like a joke.
But actually, if you read The Republic, it's quite almost like totalitarian in nature.
So I wouldn't advocate that.
But I think like the The Platonic idea of happiness and justice is something that I find really interesting.
And if we look about how do we achieve happiness, which is what our culture is struggling to do in so many ways, we've gone down the route, I think, of hedonism and nihilism.
But if you look at the ancient Greek philosophy about how we can achieve justice or meaning or purpose, it's by fulfilling our roles.
And so in my own personal life, that's what I find has given me the most meaning, right?
I look at all of my roles and I I ask myself how I can fulfill those better You know my role as a fiance my role as a daughter my role as as a Christian as a show host And to me that that is something that I can find meaning in so so there there's that and I think Let's see, 1984 is a really good one that I think is pretty topical.
It's funny, when I was reading that in high school, I thought, okay, well, this is stupid.
I don't see the point.
But I think it's becoming more and more relevant.
Let's see, Hannah Arendt on totalitarianism is also another one that I would recommend that I think is kind of especially relevant today.
Because you talk about the issue of atomization that I think we're undergoing right now in society.
People are becoming cut off from their families, their communities, their cultures.
And when you do that, the only meaningful connection you have left is toward the state.
And I think that's a problem that a lot of millennials have.
They're not really engaged in their real life.
The only meaningful sense of loyalty they have is maybe to some unseen government or state benefit program, and I think that can lead us down a pretty dark path.
So let's talk about culture, because you're obviously engaged with the culture.
So I'm just going to ask you about some of the stuff that's out there right now.
You're apparently like an award-winning Game of Thrones quiz champion.
Yeah, according to QuizUp, I am.
Yeah, that's quite the award.
I got a little banner on my QuizUp app now.
You were number one in Utah?
Yeah, pretty big deal.
Are you the only person in Utah who watches Game of Thrones?
There's like several other people, I feel.
Okay, that's good to know.
Okay, so where is it going this season, and how are you feeling about the last season?
Okay, I really didn't like the last season.
I think there are huge pacing issues.
I mean, season one, it felt like it went on too long, but then by the last seasons, like, people are going back and forth between Westeros and Essos in, like, a single episode.
It didn't make sense.
That's because the showrunners, like, they weren't into it.
They want to get onto a new project, but that's a whole thing.
So, ultimately, I think Jon and Dany are going to get together and have a baby.
There was some major heavy-handed foreshadowing that she's not actually Baron, so I think that's going to happen.
I'm still hoping that Daenerys is going to go like evil queen route, like the Mad King and need to be killed.
That's what I'm hoping for because she's, yeah, I'm not a fan.
I hope that Tyrion or Jon Snow ends up on the Iron Throne, but I'm not too sure of that.
I'm pretty sure Tyrion's going to have some epic but depressing self-sacrificing moment that might leave Jon Snow.
So our Arya, not a total fan of.
Couldn't really be fussed either way.
And let's see what else.
I hope that Jaime finds redemption because he's someone who I actually really like as a character now, which is funny because the way this show started out, was not a fan.
Yeah, he's definitely, he will find redemption.
He will end up killing Cersei.
Yeah.
Right, obviously.
I mean, they're foreshadowing too heavily that it's going to be him who kills her.
And do you ship him and Brienne?
Um, it's kind of fun.
Yeah.
I mean, like, yeah, I guess.
I don't really care about that, is the truth.
I like Brienne, I like him.
I don't really care if they're together at all.
Also, he's definitely going to plot, so he's going to die.
Yeah.
That is coming.
My great fear is that this will end with the Republic, which would just suck.
It'll end up being that Jon will have to recede into the West because he's died before and he can't actually be on the Iron Throne.
And that Tyrion, who by the way, is terrible at everything.
I mean, let me just point out, Tyrion is the worst advisor in Westeros.
He's a garbage advisor.
He was a bad advisor to Cersei, he was a bad advisor to his father, he was a bad advisor to Daenerys, and now he's a bad advisor to Jon.
Like, he's a terrible advisor every way around, and he keeps saying that he says smart things and drinks.
I'm only seeing the drinking, I'll be frank with you.
So, if Tyrion ends up on the Iron Throne after all this, I will be quite disappointed with that.
You know, there's not that much time left.
So, honestly, my big question is how they even fill the rest of the time.
Because it feels like there's climactic battle with the White Walkers that is coming.
You could probably knock that out in an episode.
And then, the only thing I cared about was all the non-magical stuff.
Actually, it's kind of ticked me off that the show has moved into too much magical stuff and not enough of the politicking, which I always thought was interesting.
Yeah, well, they have the battle with the White Walkers needs to happen.
There's also the battle with the Iron Islanders that also needs to happen.
Yeah, no one cares about that.
Yeah, I really don't.
Also, when did Circe... Everyone's doing stupid things.
They got rid of all the smart characters.
This is my main problem with the show.
Oh yeah, and Circe is pregnant.
She's pregnant again?
She's pregnant again.
Okay, well that's fine, but they keep killing off all of these smart characters.
So I was a big Tywin fan, because Tywin actually thought before he did stuff.
a big Stannis fan.
Right.
And totally turned child sacrificial.
I know, which was like total character flip because he was the only one that cared about his daughter.
And also he definitely had the best actual legal claim to the Iron Throne.
So there's that.
We're both INTJs.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
So yeah.
And finally, Cersei is not clever.
Man.
And then they got rid of, The old woman.
The Olienna.
Oh yeah, Olenna.
Olenna Tyrell, yeah.
They got rid of all the smart characters and they retained all the dumb ones and so it's gonna be dumb people doing dumb things.
Yeah, that's how I feel about Sansa.
I'm really not invested in her character in any way.
No, and by the way, the way that they took out Littlefinger at the end of last season.
Yeah.
That was your trick?
He's the smartest guy in Westeros and you took him out with like, you were hiding in the shadows?
Yeah.
That's how that worked?
You called a meeting and then he came.
Checkmate.
Boom!
Okay, so now I have to ask you about Avengers Infinity War.
So that is coming out in the next cut.
Endgame.
Endgame, thank you.
So where is Endgame going to go?
Okay, well, we know from whose contracts have been renewed and whose hasn't.
Well, they already announced another Spider-Man movie, so shocker.
Black Panther, I mean, yeah, he's gonna come back.
Chris Evans, Iron Man, I don't think they're gonna make it.
The Hulk, I've not been thrilled with the storyline either way lately, so I couldn't care less.
I'm interested mostly to see how big a role that Captain Marvel is going to play, because this is maybe like tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff, but the rumors have it that Marvel actually ended up filming two different versions of the movie, depending on how her movie was received.
That would kind of dictate how big a role that she has.
I don't know if that's true, but that's just what people on the Reddit have been saying, so that movie ended up doing pretty well.
I didn't see it.
Have you seen it?
I did see it.
A lot of people were angry that I saw it, but I did see it.
It's okay.
It is okay.
It's not the worst thing ever, and it's not some sort of long, intersectional, feminist ode to how awful straight white men are.
I mean, it's not none of that girl power messaging, but it's okay.
I saw it because I really wanted to understand Endgame.
I think ultimately, you can watch Endgame without having seen it, and you're probably going to be fine.
Okay, good, because that's sort of my plan.
Yeah.
I didn't see any driving force behind seeing Captain Marvel other than people would want me to review it, and then now I really don't want to.
Because when people want me to review things, it makes me not want to review those things.
Okay, so with all of this culture talk, how do conservatives get involved in the culture?
Because it's easy to get us into the political sphere.
We sort of naturally exist there.
It's easy to guess in the religious sphere, obviously we exist there as well.
How do conservatives get involved in sort of the cultural sphere without it seeming forced or ridiculous?
Well, I think conservatives just need to be more comfortable writing and producing cultural works.
And what's kind of frustrating is that I know for so many conservatives or conservative families, like the last thing you want your child to do is go into the entertainment industry, right?
As someone with an Asian father, trust me, that was like not on the table.
It was like doctor, different type of doctor or lawyer.
So I think I understand that because as conservatives, naturally, we value things like stability, economic security and things like that, which is not conducive to the entertainment industry.
But at the same time, I think if all of us are too scared to produce any sorts of artistic works ourselves, then we can't really complain that anything Hollywood makes is super liberal because it's like we've kind of given them that sphere.
So I think it's really cool that you've written fiction before.
Andrew Klavan, of course, like he does fiction and stuff as well.
I encourage that.
I think more conservatives need to be comfortable taking that leap.
So that's one thing.
And then the other thing is that if there is a...
You know, a movie or a series that you really like, not necessarily because it's conservative, but because it doesn't really shove a totally left-wing bias, then support it, share it, because I feel like maybe conservatives aren't as good as people on the left are at promoting movies that they care about.
You know, Unplanned is something that's come out now that I really enjoy seeing how conservatives have rallied around, because if Yes.
if conservative movies don't do well, then it makes sense.
No one's going to keep making them.
And actually, I don't know.
Have you seen a, a quiet place?
Yes.
Yeah.
So that's the movie that I really, really enjoyed.
And even my fiance who is notoriously hateful of anything Hollywood makes had to say, yeah, that's a pretty good movie.
And it's not even something that's explicitly conservative.
And, you know, both of the, the actors, uh, John Krasinski and his wife, Emily Blunt, um, You know, they're not conservative or anything by any means, but in that movie it portrays a father and a wife, and the father takes care of his family and the wife.
It kind of fulfills that nurturing role, which... It's an inherently pro-life film.
It is, it really is.
So that's another thing where it's like, yeah, that was a good movie.
No overtly liberal or feminist messages.
Yeah, let's support that.
Now that's one area where it seems like millennials may be moving in a more conservative direction on abortion.
Do you feel that?
I kind of do, because it's funny, as someone who's pro-life, I'm so often told that I reject science and I'm only pro-life because of religion, which is actually not true, because science is on the pro-life side.
There is no scientific fact that I've seen pro-choice people make, aside from my body, my choice.
Which is funny, because any other issue, these progressive feminists don't really seem to be in favor of choice and limited government, but when it comes to abortion, all of a sudden they are.
So science and biology is very firmly on the side of the pro-life people.
And I think, you know, the more we educate people on fetal development and things like that, the more we can kind of drive home the pro-life side of things.
Because, I mean, frankly, I don't think you even need to bring religion into it to make a pro-life argument.
You really, really don't.
And I'm someone who, I never really thought of it much, but I didn't have a problem with abortion before I started learning about biology and just how quickly things like the heartbeat, The brain system and everything forms, so that's something we need to get better at communicating.
Well, that is one area where Unplanned really does its heavy work.
I mean, all you really have to watch is the one scene where they actually show an abortion in progress in Unplanned.
And that's why it earned an R rating.
Matt Walsh made a great point about this.
He said, if they'd been showing a gallbladder surgery, that's PG-13.
So obviously, even the critics and the censors were deciding how exactly to rate this thing.
They wanted to rate it R because they recognized there was a moral value to what was happening on screen.
So let's talk about, you mentioned briefly before sort of the censorious nature of the internet left.
You've had to deal with some of that.
Have you dealt with the left that has come after you in particular?
And they've come after you in some peculiar ways.
They've suggested that because you've interviewed some fringe figures that somehow this makes you fringe.
How do you determine who it is that you are willing to give a platform or interview yourself?
Yeah, well I think for me is that I'm interested in huge cultural movements.
I've interviewed Richard Spencer before at a time when, by the way, they don't really bring this up, but Richard Spencer had already been on CNN and Al Jazeera before he was ever on my platform.
So let's make it clear, I was a YouTuber with Maybe 100,000 subscribers, so if anyone was giving anyone a signal boost, it was not me giving him a signal boost.
But I think the thing is, I'm someone who, if someone has a huge movement behind them, I think they are worth listening to, at least for understanding them.
I would love to be able to interview someone like Tariq Nasheed.
Or Anita Sarkeesian, you know, these far left figures.
The thing is that they don't really seem very keen to engage.
I know you've had a problem with that, you know, trying to get someone to debate you or just... And discuss would be fine, yeah.
Yeah, or yeah, discuss even.
A lot of people who are on the far left don't want that.
So, personally, I don't think we can combat an ideology unless we understand it.
And there was, I think, Dinesh D'Souza, he made a video about... He did something on the alt-right and he actually...
interviewed, I think, Richard Spencer, and he came out that, yeah, Richard Spencer is a socialist, essentially.
He is a white nationalist Bernie supporter.
And I remember when that came out, everyone was like, oh, what?
He's not actually on the right?
Like, what?
And I was like, I interviewed him like a year and a half ago, and we talked about the same thing.
Like, I've known this for a long time.
And I think one of the reasons why the left especially doesn't want us understanding the alt-right is because the alt-right, they're essentially white Black Lives Matter.
They are...
It's the same racial identitarianism.
So seeing that, the similarities that they have, doesn't make their side look very good and it especially doesn't make them look very good when they're trying to blame us for creating the alt-right.
So yeah, when people say that kind of stuff, Nine times out of ten they haven't actually watched the interview.
You know, I say in that interview that I'm not a white nationalist.
I don't agree with you.
I don't know how much more upfront I can be about it.
So I've kind of just, I tune it out because I think there are people that want to engage with you honestly and there are people who don't.
And I've learned that if someone is just keen on calling you a Nazi, there's not really anything you can do to move forward.
It's a badly motivated argument.
You can see it now being used in mainstream circles.
They've brought up this ridiculous study that suggests that because all of us are on YouTube, basically, and because there are a lot of us who are popular on YouTube, if people watch a bunch of those videos, eventually they fall down a rabbit hole, a small minority of them, and that that is somehow the fault of Dave Rubin, or me, or Jordan Peterson, or Joe Rogan, or you.
And that's really an attempt to just fringe out anybody who is having conversations in any way, even critical conversations, that need to be had.
And more importantly, they don't care about fringing out Richard Spencer, who's fringed himself out.
They care about fringing out mainstream popular figures who happen to be heterodox, because Jordan is not necessarily conservative.
Joe Rogan certainly is not conservative.
Dave Rubin is a classical liberal, as he likes to call himself, and yet there's this move to try and shrink the Overton window so that everybody who is not a Hillary Clinton supporter or Barack Obama supporter is outside that Overton window now.
Yeah, and that's what's frustrating to me is that, I mean, like with the whole Christchurch thing, everyone was going after the right wing.
Because it's hashtag not all Muslims, but it is hashtag all right wingers conveniently.
And they spend a lot more time demonizing figures like you or Jordan Peterson than the actual white nationalists.
And that's always so, so funny to me is that, I mean, let's say for some whatever we can say that, you know, this orthodox Jew is leading people toward the alt right.
Wouldn't that still lead you to criticize the actual alt-right more?
And they just don't.
I don't know why that is.
If they find these ideas so repugnant, then shouldn't you be actually criticizing the people who are espousing them, taking apart white nationalist arguments, not just conservative arguments?
But they really don't spend any time doing that, which is I mean, you and Michael Knowles with his video for PrayerU, you guys have spent more time denouncing the alt-right than they have, like the actual alt-right.
Yeah, it is pretty amazing.
And Jordan, too.
I mean, there are a number of us who have spent an enormous amount of time fighting white nationalism, but if there's a convenient way to fight back against people they don't like, then they will use any club at their disposal, and it really is fundamentally dishonest.
Okay, so I do have one more question for you, and we'll get to that in just one second.
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You can hear the end of our conversation over there.
Well, Lauren Chen, thank you so much for stopping by.
I really appreciate your time.
If you want to check out Lauren's stuff, then head on over to The Blaze TV, where you have a show pseudo-intellectual.
Lauren, thanks so much for stopping by.
Thanks for having me.
The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special is produced by Jonathan Hay.
Executive producer Jeremy Boring.
Associate producer Mathis Glover.
Edited by Donovan Fowler.
Audio is mixed by Dylan Case.
Hair and makeup is by Jeswa Olvera.
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The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special is a Daily Wire production.
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