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Jan. 27, 2019 - The Ben Shapiro Show
58:18
Lewis Howes | The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special Ep. 35
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Having that awareness that people are still going to care, no matter how much I mess up, gives me the permission to go try something new and make mistakes.
And those who aren't willing to make mistakes, I think, are going to be stuck at some point in their life.
Here we are on the Sunday special with Lewis Howes of the School of Greatness.
We're going to get to all of our questions about leadership, greatness, sports, life, in just one second.
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Well, Lewis Howes, thanks so much for joining the Sunday special.
Really appreciate having you here.
So let's just jump right in.
How did you get into podcasting about greatness?
Because your story is kind of fascinating.
Well, I moved to LA about six and a half years ago, and I was going through a breakup at the time, actually.
I'm actually going through another one right now, so it's funny timing.
But I moved, and I was going through a breakup in a lot of things in my life.
I was going through a breakup in a business partnership that I had, in an intimate relationship that I was in, and also just like a lot of friends.
I felt like we were breaking apart.
And I'd moved here.
All this was happening, and I just started to ask myself these questions.
Why is this happening?
The common denominator was me.
I was at fault for all these things.
I was responsible for the breakups in every relationship.
And being in L.A.
traffic, I was driving here today in the rain.
There's always a lot of traffic.
I remember being stuck, and everyone was stuck around me, honking their horn, screaming.
And I said to myself, like, man, there's a lot of people who are stuck in life just the way I feel stuck right now.
There's got to be a way to reach people and to inspire people who are feeling stuck, whether it's in traffic or just in their life through breakups.
And I thought to myself, I need to learn.
I need to humble myself.
I need to learn and ask questions to the most inspiring people in the world.
You were someone that came on recently and we've had incredible people and that was six years ago and it's been an amazing ride.
So how did you get into sort of even there, right?
Because your background is really in sports.
You play in the Arena Football League and you're obviously an athlete.
You play on the U.S.
handball team.
So how did you get from point A to point B?
I think I was always good at observing people.
You know, in school growing up, I was in the special needs classes.
It was hard for me to read and write at a second grade reading level in the eighth grade.
I always struggled on tests and homework.
I just, I was the opposite of you, right?
You were excelled, you skipped multiple grades.
I was the one that should have been held back, but I kind of like cheated my way and asked friends to give me the answers and people helped me with my homework all through college.
It was the only way I could really survive.
But with that, I was good at observing people.
I would just study people all day long and observe what made them tick, why they did the things they did, why people were afraid or insecure, why they would say certain things, act a certain way, why they would bully other kids.
I would just observe.
And I started asking a lot of questions in high school and college and I started to seek mentors at an early age.
Originally it was through coaches and sports and then when I got into business I just started seeking out great leaders and business minds.
And the more I asked questions, the more I learned information, and I applied that information.
After sports, I applied my life like it was a sport.
I said, I need a coach, I need a game plan, and I need to take action.
And I needed that coach to give me feedback on the action I took.
And I just continued to repeat that cycle in life.
What's really fascinating, I think, about what you're talking about here is that it goes to a conversation that I've had with a lot of other guests about the, there's a lot of fear right now of the IQ gap.
This feeling that in our economy and in our country and in a free market that people at the upper end of the IQ spectrum have this unbridgeable advantage that you can't get anywhere if you're not at the top of the IQ spectrum.
I mean, your story suggests that, and this isn't a rip on your IQ, I mean, this is a story about how you went from being a place where you were behind grade levels to doing what you're doing now.
But it suggests that there's more than one way to measure intelligence, and we're a little too narrow about this.
Yeah, I think emotional intelligence is something that people are talking about more and more, and you hear about a lot of dyslexic billionaires, you know, people that are impacting the world, leaders who were dyslexic or who struggled in school, who dropped out of school.
but we're able to connect with human beings.
We're able to speak the language where someone's at and meet people where they're at.
And I think that's a powerful point on leadership.
If you just expect everyone to understand you and you're not coming from a place of understanding them, how are you gonna get them to move, to shift, to change, to evolve, to take action on an idea?
And that's why I try to constantly learn how to develop new skills and master new skills.
And every year I think about the things I'm most afraid of.
I think about where are my insecurities still?
Where can I grow as a human being?
And then I try to go all in on those insecurities and master them so they're not a fear anymore, they become a skill.
I spent some time listening to your show and reading some of your stuff and one of the things that I really like about what you talk about in terms of leadership and also just in terms of kind of taking life by the horns is that, and it comes off of you when you're talking, is that you have a real spirit of adventure about life.
Yeah.
And do you feel like that's kind of been lost among a lot of Americans, that we've kind of been told we can't do things and so we're stuck in our own heads?
I think so.
I think that a lot of us, the common thing that I see the most is people have a lack of belief in themselves.
They lack belief, they're very insecure.
And I think they're just afraid to fail.
And I was taught as an early age that you have to fail if you want to succeed.
The more you fail, the more you're willing to succeed.
And that's why, for me as a kid, I got in the act of taking on these challenges early on.
Anytime I was afraid, I was just like, I'm sick and tired of feeling this way.
I'm going to take it on.
I'm going to see what happens.
And I don't care if anyone doesn't like me, because at the time, no one liked me.
So it didn't matter.
I was like, no one likes me.
I don't have friends anyways.
So let me just try to get better.
And now that I've got, you know, a core group of family and friends, it's like, even if I make a mistake and all my fans leave me, or followers leave me, or listeners stop listening, I still have people that care.
And having that awareness that people are still going to care, no matter how much I mess up, gives me the permission to go try something new.
And I think that's the key.
It allows me to be adventurous, to wonder, to try and fail and make mistakes.
And those who aren't willing to make mistakes, I think, are going to be stuck at some point in their life.
Yeah, it's really interesting because you and I are opposites in a lot of ways.
But in this way, we're very similar.
I mean, it sounds like.
When I was growing up, I obviously didn't have tons of friends.
I was kind of isolated.
I had my family specifically.
And it's painful at the time.
But you also sort of learn that it's your job to forge forth.
And if people never seem to care about you, you tend not to care about what they think very much in the long run.
How did you deal with that when you were a kid, being not the most popular kid?
I didn't deal with it well.
It struggled because all I wanted was friends.
That's all I wanted.
And I felt like I was constantly the outcast.
Again, originally it was because I couldn't read and write.
And when the teacher would ask us to read aloud in class, I would just stutter.
And so I would just get picked on and made fun of.
I was in the special needs classes as well.
And so I just constantly told myself that I was stupid.
Based on results.
You know, the results I was getting, I was stupid.
I was in the bottom four of my class every time we got a grade card.
I was in the bottom four because they ranked us on our grade cards.
So that didn't help.
But I used a lot of my anger and put it into being a great athlete.
I said, no one is ever going to pick on me again.
I'm going to get so big, so fast, so strong, so talented as an athlete.
that everyone's going to want me on their team.
I remember in third grade, I was picked last for a sports team.
In the class, the teacher said, OK, we're going to go out to recess.
We're going to play dodgeball.
And he picked two captains and he said, go ahead and pick one by one.
Now, I was thinking to myself, I'm a pretty good athlete.
I want to be one of the first guys picked, right?
So the two captains, they pick one by one, all the boys in the class.
There's probably 20 boys, 20 girls.
And I'm thinking to myself, man, am I really going to be the last boy picked?
This is like humiliating.
And then it comes down to the last boy, and then there was me.
And so I start walking over to the team that was next, thinking I was going to be the next one picked.
Little did I know, they started picking a girl, and the next girl, and the next girl, and the next girl, all the way until I was the last one by default.
And that really resonated with me at the time.
It really stuck with me.
It made me angry, because I felt just like there was an attack against me.
You know, they were making fun of me.
They were really singling me out.
And I remember saying after that, first off, I just dominated in that game.
I just, like, was throwing the ball at everyone, catching everything.
But I said to myself, like, never again will I get picked last.
And so I'm going to do whatever it takes to become a great athlete.
I knew I wasn't good in school, so I was like, all this energy is going to go into developing my skills as an athlete.
And that's what I did.
I started to just go all in, and I had to win at all costs.
I was a very poor loser.
And I was a bad winner.
You know, winning still wasn't enough.
I still had to, like, destroy people when I won.
And I would constantly beat myself up for the couple mistakes I would make in a game.
It didn't matter if I was the highest scorer, the MVP, I was like, yeah, but I messed that up.
And I messed that up.
So I would beat myself up for winning, and I was a sore loser when we lost.
And it just drove me to get better.
It wasn't until I was about 30 years old, actually, that I realized that I had a very big ego that I was driven to win at everything.
I was driven to win in my relationships.
I was driven to be right.
I was driven to excel in sports.
And that's when this kind of moment, you know, six years ago, five, six years ago, really came to me when I was going through this breakup and everything.
I was like, why am I still struggling?
When I have a very successful multi-million dollar business, I had a beautiful girlfriend, I have these great relationships, I've achieved all these accolades that seem good, but why am I still suffering and struggling inside?
And it wasn't until I was able to go back into, and I think we talked about this a little bit, to go back into all the times that I was, felt like I wasn't enough.
Felt like I was bullied, picked on, And just felt like I didn't believe in myself.
When I went back and all that and started to process it, that's when I started to realize why I acted the way I did.
And when I started to let go of a lot of the pain, a lot of the frustration, a lot of things I was holding on to, the forgiveness that I needed to do, That's when I finally felt free emotionally. - Yeah, I mean, there's a lot there, and it sounds like from a different angle, you and I have very similar experiences this way.
And for me, it gave me a different perspective on bullying.
So my perspective on bullying is that I hate bullies with a passion.
I think they're awful.
I think we should do everything we can to stop bullies, but it doesn't give me a lot of sympathy for necessarily folks who are bullied and then use that as an excuse not to try or to suggest that the bullying is the rationale for their future failures.
At a certain point, you got to take ownership of what happened to you and turn it around as best you can.
I mean, if we're not talking about something that is life-threatening or really debilitating.
But as somebody who was pretty viciously bullied myself, that was always fuel for the fire.
Same for me.
Right, exactly.
And I think that that is what I hope that's what people can treat bullying as because life is full of terrible things and terrible hardships.
It's not fair.
That's right.
And you can either react to that by trying harder or you can react to it by kind of knuckling under.
Exactly.
And I think I realized that I used the fire from like the bullying or just not feeling good enough or whatever, you know, from family challenges and struggles with my parents.
My brother was in prison for a few years and so I didn't have friends during that time either.
So I just, I had a lot of different things that I held onto and I realized that The fuel and the fire that I had to prove everyone wrong was so powerful that it worked.
It got me moving forward.
It got me to develop better skills.
I became a great athlete.
I was an All-American in two sports.
I played pro football.
All these things happened, but I still wasn't happy and feeling fulfilled.
And I was like, why isn't this working?
Like, I am doing everything by the book.
I'm working harder than everyone else.
I'm putting more time in the gym.
You know, I play by the rules.
All these things, but why am I still suffering inside?
Why am I still not feeling like it's not enough?
And it wasn't until, again, I started to really address these things and tap into all the things from my childhood and from breakups and relationships and when I started to let go, that's when I started to feel a sense of inner peace.
A lot of people who are very successful, who are big personalities, who make a lot of money, but I see them and I talk to them and there's suffering inside.
And one of the things I want to try to do is support people in overcoming that inner suffering, that pain that I think a lot of us have held on to or hold on to still.
And it's just a process.
Yeah, well, ambition and drive, it's kind of a universal asset, right?
It eats through your apathy, which is great, because it means that our normal tendency is to be apathetic and to be lazy, and when you're ambitious, it gets you up off your ass and makes you go do things.
But then you get to a certain point and the acid starts eating through the actual engine, like the engine that keeps you going.
It starts to eat you up inside, is what you're talking about.
Yeah, exactly.
And there comes a point where you realize that you actually can't dance with the gal that brought you.
That chip on your shoulder, that ambition, that's actually become now an obstacle to the happiness that you thought it was going to bring you in the first place.
It's the enemy now.
It's like the demon inside that you've got to let go of.
It's the thing that fuels you to get there, but it's not the thing that's going to help you be fulfilled.
Right, exactly.
Moments of fulfillment and happiness, but then not long term.
And I think that's what we've got to learn, I think.
So how much of this has to do with what do you consider sort of your purpose in life?
I mean, what would you consider success?
Because obviously you've had monetary success.
Yeah.
You've had success in different areas, in sports.
What do you consider success that actually makes you happy?
What's the stuff that makes you happy?
For me, it's knowing that I don't live with any regrets.
So at least giving my full effort on things that I'm That I love, that I'm excited about, that are my dreams or my fears.
It's like going all in on those things.
And if I fail, at least I know I went all in.
For me, that's one measure of success.
Another measure of success is making my family proud.
You know, and doing well by my name.
My last name, my family, the people that raised me, my siblings.
And having them really respect me.
And say, you're doing a good job.
For me, that's important.
The third thing is knowing that I left it all on the field of life and making the maximum impact on the maximum number of people.
I don't know.
I downloaded this app a few weeks ago called We Croak.
I don't know if you've heard of this.
Five times a day, it sends me a message that says you're going to die.
And I guess it's from the nation Bhutan, I think, where five times a day they celebrate their death, or they think about their death, to have them appreciate their life more.
And I'm thinking about this a lot more.
It's like, I might be gone tomorrow.
I might walk out of here, hopefully I am safe, but the rain, who knows?
And I may not be here.
Am I going to be happy with the results I have and the actions I took in this life?
So for me, It's just how can I make the maximum impact on the maximum number of people to help them live a better life.
I don't know a better mission that I could live by.
If I can help people feel better, live better, reach their potential, achieve their dreams, experience love on the deepest levels.
For me, I feel like that's a pretty good measure of success.
So I want to ask you a little bit about your family.
So you mentioned your parents and your brother.
What was your family growing up?
I mean, on one side, my parents were so loving and giving and nurturing.
But on the other side, they had their challenges.
There was a lot of arguments and fighting and passive-aggressive energy in the home.
I was the youngest of four.
At eight years old, my brother went to prison for four years for selling some drugs to an undercover cop when he was in college.
And the war on drugs in the 90s was a big deal, so they were just putting people away no matter what they did.
And, you know, when I was five, not to get too deep, but when I was five, I was raped by a man.
And it was a very dark time.
It was very dark because It really shaped my entire life.
This one moment where I was sexually abused, it made me very defensive anytime I felt like someone was trying to attack me.
And that was very challenging growing up in Ohio as a straight man.
You know, I was also very I would say I love to be around, like, my teammate brothers, right?
I love to, like, high-five them and put my arm around guys and just, like, be a loving brother, right?
But anytime I showed any type of connection, just, like, as a brother, non-intimate in any way, it was just, like, don't be a fag, don't be gay, don't be this.
It was always, like, bad.
That, coupled with the bullying, coupled with just being made fun of.
You know, I was almost this tall when I was like 10 years old, so I was just like this gangly, goofy kid.
So I always felt under attack.
That's the story I told myself.
And it wasn't until I was able to, at 30 years old, start to process... I never told anyone about being raped.
Because I always felt so ashamed.
I felt so guilty.
I felt like no one was going to love me.
No one was going to accept me.
They were going to blame me.
They were going to make fun of me.
It was going to hurt my business.
Everyone was going to laugh at me.
And it wasn't until I was 30, five years ago, that I started to open up about it and talk about it.
And it was the scariest thing I've ever done.
But it was also the most freeing thing I've ever done.
Because people did embrace me.
They did accept me.
And it brought me closer to people than I ever thought it would.
You know, when I shared it with my family members.
They were all in shock and sad and hurt, but they also started to open up in powerful, beautiful ways with me about things I never knew about them.
And so we created a better connection and intimacy.
When I shared it with my friends, same thing happened.
They were just there for me even more, and we built more trust.
I decided to publicly open up about it on my podcast five years ago, about four and a half years ago.
And I remember saying, this is gonna ruin my career.
I don't know any other white, straight, jock personality who's opened up about being sexually abused.
And there's no model for me to follow this.
But I felt like the more I was telling people one-on-one The more healing it was creating for them as well.
And people are opening up to me about their pain and their shame and their guilt and insecurities.
And the more I started to research about how men are causing so much pain in the world, so much suffering, because they're not just opening up about their shame, I said I gotta do something about this.
And even if I lose all my followers and all my money is gone, I feel like at least I lived part of a mission and a purpose that I was here to do.
And when I opened up about it, it blew my mind the emails I got.
Hundreds of emails from men who were 50 years old that said, I have four kids and a wife, no one knows.
This happened to me when I was 11.
This happened to me when I was 6, when I was 12, when I was 5.
And people just opened up one by one.
I became someone they could share with, I guess.
Someone they could trust.
And the healing that happened after that for a lot of these men just really inspired me.
And that's why I started to talk about it more.
That's why I wrote a book about men just opening up and having a safe space to share these things.
It doesn't have to be with the world, but just with your spouse or a close friend or someone at the church or a therapist or someone you can trust to start opening up about the things that you're most ashamed of, most hurt by, and the things you're angry about.
Because I just feel like there's a lot of pain in the world.
There's a lot of anger and there's a lot of hate.
And if we can eliminate that, then we can all be more free.
Have you gotten any blowback from having told those stories?
I don't think I really did.
I think maybe there was like a couple people that were, I don't know, hurt or offended by me sharing.
But it was so overwhelmingly positive that I didn't even really recognize it.
It was maybe a couple people saying I shouldn't have said it a certain way, but it's been life-changing for me, but also for other people.
So I just continue to talk about it.
And also that experience now no longer has control over me, where it used to define me.
It used to be anytime I felt attacked, I would go after and want to fight someone, whether it be Online, physically, I just would want to fight people.
And that's not a good way to live life, just constantly like trying to attack someone.
It's really fascinating because obviously we live in this Me Too moment where a lot of people are worried about exactly this kind of stuff, the abuse of women, the abuse of men, the sexual abuse of people.
And there seems to be a baseline assumption that most Americans are somehow not sympathetic, that there needs to be a massive mind shift in how most Americans think about this stuff.
I mean, I'm coming at a different angle because, thank God, that never happened to me, but it seems to me that that may be exaggerated, that most Americans are really not looking to jump down the throat of somebody who is abused, that most Americans are on the side of people who are abused and are looking to figure out exactly how they can help.
Yeah, I think the statistic right now is one in four women have been sexually abused, and one in six men have been sexually abused, or six boys, that we know of.
And so the challenge is that this is happening more frequently than we realize.
It's probably happening to someone that you know, close to you.
If you've got five guy friends, chances are one of you has experienced this.
And I think it just lets us know that, like, There's a lot more things that have happened to people that we're not even aware of because people aren't talking about it.
And people are ashamed, they're insecure, they're afraid of what people are going to say.
They don't want to be rejected for what people know about them.
And I think we suffer when we hold these things in.
We suffer, we struggle, and we start to make poor decisions when we're emotionally triggered, when we're under attack emotionally or physically.
We're less peaceful in our responses.
I think that's what this is all about.
It's like how can we come together more as a world, as a humanity, to serve a greater purpose of why we're all here, you know?
Less attacking.
And more service.
So you talk about some of this in your new book, The Mask of Masculinity, specifically talking about, you know, vulnerability and all this.
What do you think the mask is?
I mean, when you refer to the mask of masculinity, what is that mask?
I think we all wear different masks.
You know, I wore the athlete mask and the know-it-all mask.
You know, there's some people, some guys have the joker mask, who are always the funny guys, who are always like the laugh of the party.
There's the invincible mask, the guy that just takes on every challenge, who's just like the daredevil, who thinks he's never going to get hurt.
We put on these masks to essentially try to fit in.
You know, I wore this athlete mask and this egoic know-it-all mask because I wanted to prove my worthiness and acceptance of other people.
Whether it was girls, guys, teachers, coaches, it didn't matter.
Trying to prove something based on insecurity.
When we reveal ourselves, when we take off the mask, and we realize, oh, this is actually really scary, when someone sees all of us, when we stop protecting the things that we're afraid of, and someone sees us, it's terrifying, because we're unsure of how people are going to respond.
You know, when the comedian constantly tells a funny joke, he's going to get someone to laugh, and he knows that people want to be around that.
So it's comfortable.
When I tell a joke, people are going to laugh.
I'm going to have friends.
They're going to like me.
What if I don't tell a joke for a week and people stop laughing?
Are they gonna like who I really am?
Are they gonna like what I have to say if it's not constantly making a joke or constantly doing something to prove my worth?
And I think that's what we get to learn how to be.
It's just more open.
more revealing, less surface level, less projecting our mass, our insecurities.
So that doesn't sound like it's specifically masculine or feminine.
So what do you mean when you speak about masculinity per se?
Because obviously there's a lot of talk these days about toxic masculinity or the problems with masculinity.
So what's your take on masculinity?
I think people's opinions of it.
I think we grew up with an opinion of masculinity that doesn't work fully right now.
Where you have to be strong, you have to be the provider, you have to be certain things, you have to never show emotion, you can never cry, you can never tell people how you feel.
I think some of the times that works.
You know, you want to be a provider, you want to be strong at certain times.
But there are certain times that you can also be vulnerable.
And you can shift.
In and out of it.
You don't have to be the standard of masculinity that was projected when we grew up as kids, which is like, you've got to sleep with all the girls, you've got to make lots of money, you've got to have a great job, otherwise you're not a real man.
I think that just is not accurate.
I'm not saying you should be like the softest human being in the world and cry every single day.
I don't think that works either.
But I think you get to be able to flex in and out of this toxic masculinity that doesn't serve us anymore.
In moments, yes.
Be strong.
Stand up for what you need to.
You know, fight against certain things that are unjust, but you don't have to be that way 100% of the time if it's hurting you and hurting the people around you.
So just see how you're affecting the people around you, at least the closest people around you.
If you're hurting people around you, is that ideal of masculinity good or can you shift it?
That's what I would say.
Yeah, I feel like we've sort of shifted.
It's interesting, because I feel like a lot of what people consider to be traditional masculinity is a little bit overwrought, meaning that because we've all seen movies from the 1930s and 40s, we think, OK, John Wayne, that's what masculinity was.
But the reality is that being a man was always about really protecting and providing.
These were the two things.
And maybe we moved too far in the direction of protection and providing without thinking about how we maintain our own health, our own mental, our own emotional Absolutely.
and mental sanity.
But I get the feeling from today's men that sometimes it's too far in the other direction, that we're very much focused on our own emotions and sure, we're focused on vulnerability, but we forget about responsibility and we forget about questing forth and protecting and all of these things.
Absolutely.
And that's why I think it's like, don't go the other side and just be completely forget these things.
Just like the masks, you can put them on at certain times, but don't keep them on all the time.
You know, be the funny guy in that moment that you need to be funny.
But when you're all at a funeral, or there's a very sensitive moment, don't have the mask on and be funny all the time.
Learn how to use different emotions.
Learn how to shift your energy to connect with people in the right settings.
And I think that's an evolved human being, not just a man.
That's an evolved human being who learns about their surroundings, what people are feeling, what they're going through, and knows how to shift their energy, their words, their communication in that moment.
I mean, this is one of these areas where it's so funny because you don't do politics and I do politics all the time.
Yes.
The truth is that the consensus that we have about these issues is pretty broad, and I feel like in the political world, all these false breaks happen, all these false dichotomies, where on the one hand you have Gillette doing commercials about toxic masculinity, there's one this week about how men have been bringing up boys to be bullies and sexual harassing, and on the other side you have a bunch of people saying, hold up a second, without fathers, these boys end up disasters.
That most toxic masculinity is not the result of men in boys' lives.
It's the result of men not being in boys' lives.
One day you're going to be married and have kids.
How do you expect to be the man in your boys' life?
That's a great question.
I think I'm going to have to learn from a lot of successful fathers and start asking them a lot of smart questions.
I'll start having them on my show.
But I think it's being the example and setting a standard of being responsible.
Being responsible for your actions, for the things you say, the things you do.
And I'm going to be pushing my kids to want to be the best they can be in their own way.
But also, I remember my father would, he would cry at different times in movies.
I remember like every three or four months, I would see him cry.
And on one side, the kids in my school, if you cried in school, you were just made fun of and picked on.
So I would never show emotion growing up because I didn't want my friends to pick on me even more than I was being bullied.
But I would see my father, tear up during movies or in an emotional moment in our family, I would see him cry in a very sensitive way.
And yet here he was, this strong provider, very strong, large in the life, big guy.
He was actually an insurance salesman, you know, plugged to your insurance ad in the beginning.
Very successful insurance, made a lot of money, father of four, married for 30 years.
And here he was showing emotion.
In a time back in the 80s and 90s where that wasn't really acceptable.
And I never saw that from other parents.
And so it gave me a model that said, okay, you can still be strong, but also like allow for emotion to come out when you feel it.
And not just bottle it all up and feel stressed and feel overwhelmed and anxious because you're not expressing that.
No, I didn't see him crying every day and out in public and all these other things.
It was in like certain settings.
But for me, I thought that was really important to model that.
To just say, hey, if you have a feeling, you can express your feelings and it's okay.
So I think I'll be expressive to my kids as well in that way.
And I want them to feel extremely loved and supportive.
So that I remember I was interviewing Kobe Bryant and he said, The first year he got into basketball, there was a summer he got into basketball when he was like 12 years old or something, and he didn't score a single point the whole summer.
And he went on to become one of the greatest basketball players and arguably athletes of all time.
And I said, how did you go into playing?
And what was the greatest lesson that your father taught you that made you so dominant?
And he said to Kobe, he said that no matter whether he scores or doesn't score, wins or loses, he's going to love him the same way.
And Kobe said that gave him permission to go and fail and go and pursue it even harder because he knew that his father was going to love him no matter what.
I think there's a lot of parents that base their love on performance and results.
And they hold back sometimes if they didn't get the result that they wish that their kids got.
Learning more lessons like that, like making sure you love your kids no matter what.
So I know you're an apolitical guy.
It seems like these days pretty much every topic, for some reason or other, becomes political.
It doesn't seem to matter what it is, whether it's the sporting world, whether it's the advertising world.
So I'm not going to ask you how you vote because, frankly, it's your business.
But, you know, if you had any sort of core political convictions about what government should be doing, do you have any sort of political convictions on this sort of stuff?
I know the least about politics and any terminology and any parties, what they're doing.
I really don't watch much news.
Give me a specific question maybe of like, I just want people to come together and love each other more.
As weird as that sounds, I want people to fight less and feel free to pursue what they want.
And so whatever government supports that.
Where it's, I think a government that inspires people to pursue what they want, to be more productive, to be more loving, to be more inclusive, to be less, to hate people less.
I think that's what we need.
You know, all the taxes and this and that, it's like, I spend so much money on taxes, but I feel like it's the price I pay to have the freedoms here in California and opportunities, that I'm just like, whatever, I gotta pay whatever I have to pay, and it gives me the opportunity.
Not as much as you're paying.
The answer is you don't have to pay as much as you're paying for those opportunities.
Sure, I wish I didn't have to.
Don't worry, it's just California.
But in any case, the reason I ask that is because where I come from, what you're doing, which is an attempt to build social fabric, all that stuff seems to be stuff that we really do outside of government.
So you mentioned the idea that a government that can foster this stuff.
I'll be honest, I've never seen a government that's capable of fostering this stuff.
What do we need to do in order to make that happen?
I mean, I don't think that the government is capable of that.
Meaning that I think the connections that we have with the people around us, the connections with our family, the connections with our friends, all that happens in the absence of government.
That when government comes in and tries to get between me and my family or make decisions for us.
What they're doing instead is they're preventing me from building the communities that I want to build.
And so what you're doing, and we'll take it back inside of politics here, what you're doing in building social fabric is actually a social good on a political level.
Because without that social fabric where we're all connected, then you do need a government to come in and artificially build a reason for us all to be in the same place at the same time.
There you go.
if we were able to voluntarily get together, see each other as brothers and sisters as opposed to enemies, then you don't need government to put its heavy foot down and try and compel things from the top down.
Right.
That's sort of the viewpoint in any case.
There you go.
I have a lot to learn from you.
Okay.
So let me ask you about sort of your religious background.
So you're obviously a very will-driven guy.
A lot of your advice is about sort of jumping in and taking them all by the horns, and you have the power to do certain things.
So where are you on a religious level?
I grew up in a religion called Christian Science.
Have you ever heard of this religion?
It's a very small religion, and for me, I still don't fully understand it.
I don't go to church necessarily anymore, maybe once a year, once or twice a year, but I remember going to church every week, and every Wednesday night, there were these things called Wednesday night testimonials, where people would talk about the healings they had from From the practice of the religion.
And the religion was founded by a woman, Mary Baker Eddy.
And what I really took from the religion is that it's all about mind over matter.
Everything that I learned was your thoughts and your ideas shape your reality.
And we are all spiritual beings.
That means we're not actually physically here.
Just an idea.
And therefore, an idea can never be physically hurt.
And it was always very confusing because I was like, well, what is this?
This feels real, right?
It's like I have these desires, these urges.
But it worked for me very well in sports.
And whenever I was in conflict, I was just like, I'm just an idea.
And if I have an idea, and I continue to build the belief of the idea strong, then I can do anything.
And anytime I was hurt or injured, my mindset was stronger than my physical body, to where it gave me the advantage in games and in sports.
It allowed me to push myself so far, because I just believed I was an idea that could never be hurt.
And again, there's certain things about the religion that I really love and certain things that I don't understand still, and that's why I'm not constantly practicing it, but it gave me a great foundation to Continue to ask questions about why we're here and the purpose of it all.
And while I'm here, I might as well make the most of it and be a good idea as opposed to a bad one.
So what's your day like on a daily basis?
I mean, do you get up in leadership all day or how does that work?
No, no, I get up and I think the body is important though.
Even though I focus on the mind a lot, I try to push the mind through pushing the body.
So I get up and I train, usually either with a trainer or I do a class or something in the morning.
I meditate, which is the same thing as prayer as me.
It's really just focusing on how I can be a better person this day and how I can serve humanity at a higher level.
I really look at myself as a servant to my skill sets.
Like, how can I serve people?
How can I serve my audience?
And I really look at that as a definition of masculinity.
It's someone who's in service.
And that's what I look at it.
And for me, it doesn't matter what shape it takes, as long as I'm helping people improve their lives.
That's my whole mission every single day.
So I work out, I meditate or pray, whatever you want to call it, and I really focus on how I'm going to do that that day.
My mission is to serve 100 million people every single week.
I'm nowhere close to it now, but that's the goal that I'm working towards.
And I do a lot of what you do.
I'm interviewing people.
I'm working on a couple of books right now.
I'm filming documentaries.
I'm doing different media content to try to spread the message of that service and reach those people.
So you talked a little bit earlier about your fears and how to overcome them.
Right now, what are your greatest fears?
Man.
I think I'm learning to... I'm going to have to learn from you on how you do this because I've never really gotten a lot of criticism.
I've never really gotten a lot of criticism until recently.
Not because of you.
Although I didn't help.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I got some stuff there, but just like people are starting to attack my character, attack my whole life's work for one or two things that they didn't agree with, let's say.
And I've never really had to face that on a large scale.
I faced it on smaller scale.
But when people start attacking me and start spamming online, things that are rumors are not true, and then people start to believe that, it's just kind of like, man, I guess it just happens for everyone as they continue to have a bigger audience.
And so I'm trying to learn that this is going to happen.
I saw The Rock, who I'm actually a big fan of, had something like every news outlet talked about how he There was an interview where he talked about millennials or something.
Yeah, he was ripping on snowflakes.
For those on the right, we were real happy about it.
But then it turned out he never gave the interview.
Right, it was never him or something.
And it's just like, no matter how good... And I feel like the guy is constantly trying to do good in the world.
Yeah, I agree.
Constantly spreading positivity and giving back.
It doesn't matter how much good you try to do, someone wants to see you fail.
Someone wants to see you fall.
Someone is jealous.
Someone is so insecure that they try to attack you.
And I just wish the world wasn't that way, but it is.
And so my fear is learning how to navigate that.
And that's why I'm like, maybe I'll have some conversations with you off camera to see how you've handled it and managed it emotionally.
Because it's something that's happened recently that I'm like, okay, this is new.
And I feel like I'm moving through it pretty well, but I'm just not sure Man, is this going to be happening for the rest of my life?
Yeah.
I mean, the answer is yes.
And how do you handle it?
I mean, when you get someone who's like attacking all of your character, all of your life's work, all the things you've done well.
You know, it's very difficult because when you're young, especially because we had this common history being bullied, at the very least, what you learn is that you have to really grow a hard shell.
And then as you get older, you're like, okay, but I want the hard shell, but I also want, you know, I want to be like a Soberford.
I want to have like the soft center where Yeah.
To my friends and family, I'm soft.
Also, I can take criticism, so the shell's not completely impermeable.
I want people to be able to make a critique of me, and I want to be able to accept that critique and internalize it and give feedback.
And if you're a good person, you're constantly trying to make yourself better along the way.
But there's a lot of bad faith criticism that happens, and that's why I think that in the end, and this is the part of my life that I've reached now, is that you have to actually develop a core that is not permeable.
So there's the stuff that you actually believe so strongly that that's not actually permeable, where criticism actually has to bounce off it.
So there's this outer layer of most things bounce off, and then there's an inner layer, which is, okay, I accept some of this criticism and some of it that I don't.
It's more of a filter.
And then there's this hard core of principle that no one can invade, and if they invade that, it's rejected out of hand.
And trying to figure that out is a really hard barrier because it's a hard balance.
You want to make sure that that barrier isn't too large so that you can't accept criticism or so that you can't be sensitive to other people.
But you want to make sure that it's there because if it's not there, then you just get shot right through it, right?
It goes through one side and out the other, and it mortally wounds you.
And that's really difficult because, you know, there's no way it doesn't hurt.
Of course it hurts.
Anytime you're under attack for something you feel like is unjust, it doesn't matter how good you're trying to be, it's like, why?
Why are these people so, you know?
Yeah, and usually what you find is it's somebody else's insecurity that is driving all of it.
Of course.
They're jealous, or they're insecure, they want to see, whatever it may be.
Right, they want to see you go down because they have a problem with you, but it's bad faith, but the bad faith is really rooted in something that happened to them ten years ago.
Or they're not taking the actions they wish they were taking.
Right, exactly.
And that helps to a certain extent, but it really does mean that you have to, I think, that that core also includes other people, meaning that one of the ways to make sure that that core is the correct size and strength is to make sure that you actually have no men around you.
I think bad leaders surround themselves with yes men.
Bad leaders surround themselves with people who are telling them they're doing the right thing all the time.
Good leaders surround themselves with no men, saying you're not allowed to do this, you're not allowed to do that.
But also, You know, are not constantly opposed to everything you do.
They're trying to guard you from yourself, and they're also trying to protect you at the same time.
So getting feedback from a group of people you actually trust is difficult.
That's why it's hard to find great friends.
I told you when I was on your show, I'm not a friends person, because I think that most friends have interests that are disparate from yours.
I mean, they have their own lives, they have their own priorities, and sometimes that conflicts.
But, you know, for me, my core is my wife, my kids, my parents.
And that's pretty much it, right?
And then I have like a couple of very close friends who really, maybe only one really close friend, who I bounce things off of.
And then a bunch of people who I take their advice under advisement.
But, you know, I think that that's necessary.
You do have to have that hardcore because if it's not there, then you will get blown away.
I mean, as you get bigger, the pressures grow larger.
I mean, there's just more weight.
There's just more weight.
And we live in an ugly time, right?
I mean, people are going to go through everything you ever said, everything you ever did.
They're going to dig up everything, every person you ever talked to.
That's crazy.
So that's where I'm at right now, is figuring out how to navigate that.
And I'm also, like, actually appreciative and grateful for it because I'm like, you know, everyone's going to have that after doing something positive.
- Right, and it gives you an opportunity also to sort of clean your plate of it, meaning that something comes up from 10 years ago you feel bad about, it comes up and you're like, right, I screwed that up.
- Exactly. - And now I have the opportunity to just move that aside. - So taking responsibility for everything and also purging people.
You know, I'm just like purging people, like followers who are just taking the assumptions of rumors and saying, oh, you're this bad guy now because of this thing or whatever.
I'm like, okay, well, if that's what you want to believe, I'm sorry to see you go.
So how do you, I mean, you're in the social media world.
How do you handle social media?
Cause I feel like it's eating my life.
So how do you deal with it?
It's tough.
I think this has actually been a good time since I've had like some of these spammers come out of the woodwork over the last, whatever, a few months.
I've removed myself from reading it.
I have a team that's working on it that just sees all this stuff and just deletes and blocks people right away.
And I think that's powerful for me.
It's like removing myself from the day-to-day of being on Instagram and allowing other people to do that so I can focus on the bigger mission.
And that's been really helpful is having that.
Before I answer more, I was curious, what is the third layer core for you?
You said there's three layers.
What's the one or two beliefs that you hold on to no matter what?
In the center, that's like nothing will penetrate those things for you.
Well, I think honestly for anyone, you have to believe that you are well-intentioned.
Yeah.
If you don't believe that you're well-intentioned, then you're going to collapse, right?
If you believe that what you're actually motivated by is greed or by fame or something else, exactly.
But for most people, it really is fame and money, right?
Fame and money or personal love.
If you're motivated by any of those three things, you get yourself in real trouble.
If you feel like you're motivated by something that's true, that you actually want the best for the world, you want the best for other people, then when somebody attacks you, it's like, well, that's just not true.
- Yeah. - You can just reject that out of town.
It would be like if somebody said to me, "You don't love your wife." He'd be like, "That's just silly." - That's true, yeah. - I wouldn't even get angry.
It's just like, that's just silly.
It's like saying, if somebody said to me, "You don't love your kids." It'd be like, that's just, things that are just not true bounce off of you.
It's the stuff that feels like, that niggles at you in your mind. - Yeah. - That you feel like, maybe it's half true.
Like, am I doing that because I'm pandering?
Am I doing that because I'm not doing that?
I'm just trying to be successful.
Am I doing that?
Because that's the stuff that bothers you.
And so you have to wake up, and that's what allows you to be a good person is cleansing those influences.
Not just the outside criticism, but cleansing yourself of those feelings.
Maybe I am doing it because I'm doing it for bad reasons.
Okay, so then I have to not do that.
And that makes me better.
And that allows me to keep that core intact.
So the core is not that you're stubborn in not seeing the criticism.
It's that in order to maintain that core honestly, you actually have to keep polishing it.
That core has to be polished on a regular basis. - And constantly reflecting.
Yeah.
As I get older, I'm spending more time reflecting and less time projecting.
And I think that's something I've been trying to work on.
It's difficult.
It's rough.
Okay, so back to relationships.
So you've been dating a lot more recently than I have.
My dating experience is basically none.
And then met my wife, three months of dating, proposal, marriage, 11 years of marriage in July.
Two kids, right?
Two kids, yeah, exactly.
It was all very, it was the purpose-driven dating.
Yeah, I like that.
It was basically, I knew I was going to get married, so I was dating for marriage.
Obviously, you have been through more relationships and more dating experience than I have.
What's your advice for guys who are trying to date in today's world?
Oh, my gosh.
I think the more you work on yourself and your inner confidence, the easier it'll be.
The less you'll have to, like, make things up, the less you're gonna have to say some certain line.
You're just gonna be yourself because you're working on yourself.
The more confident you are, the more you're going to attract a confident individual.
And so, I would just keep it relaxed.
You know, for me, I would keep it relaxed.
Don't try to work so hard at it.
But also give yourself a challenge to put yourself out there.
You know, whether it's every day I'm going to talk to someone who I think is interesting, whether it be online or someone I meet at a coffee shop, I'm going to give myself the challenge to potentially get rejected.
And the more you do that, you're going to build confidence because you're going to learn how to communicate to people better who you're curious about or attracted to.
And I remember when I was 16, I was terrified to speak to girls.
Couldn't speak to girls because I was afraid, I was insecure, I felt stupid, all these things.
And I gave myself that challenge when I was 16 in the summer.
I said, anytime there's a girl that I'm attracted to or I think is cute, I'm going to walk right up to them and have a conversation.
And I never could do that before.
And it was terrifying to me.
And the first couple of weeks, I just got rejected over and over.
Girls laughed at me.
Girls ran away from me.
And all these things happened.
My worst nightmare happened.
But little by little, I was like, oh, I'm never going to see that person again.
It doesn't matter.
Right?
Like, it's OK to get rejected.
Let me just go back again.
And knowing that I'm going to fail, it made it more easier for me to be confident the next time.
So that's what I would say, is give yourself a challenge.
Be more of yourself by working on yourself and increasing your confidence with different skills that you want to learn.
And you're going to project real confidence as opposed to some pickup line.
And you're going to attract the right people.
Yeah.
So this is one of those areas where, you know, I didn't, as I say, I haven't had a lot of dating experience, but the dating experience that I did have was extraordinarily productive.
So I batted basically a thousand in my dating life because I didn't date very much at all.
And then I dated and I got married and it's great.
One final piece of advice that I had from a great relationship coach for women who came on my show, his name is Matt Hussey.
He said, if you want to attract the right partner, create a list of all the things you want from those people.
You know, everything.
Write it down.
Everything you want to attract from that person, And then become those things.
Exactly.
This is exactly right.
And when I see guys who are whining about they can't get a date, very often it's because you don't deserve a date, man.
No.
I mean, it's because you haven't made yourself a person who is dateable.
Exactly.
And it happens for women too.
You see people who rail against reality.
This is one of my pet peeves just in life that I've been dating too, is people who rail against the reality.
So you'll see somebody who's not in shape and they're railing, they're not finding enough attractive partners.
And it's like, well, why don't you go to the gym?
Work on yourself.
It's not somebody else's responsibility to be attracted to you.
Yeah.
Right?
It's your responsibility to make yourself attractive if you want this thing.
I mean, in any other area of life, you would recognize this.
And there's a lot of people that are just like saying, just love yourself for who you are.
Yes.
And continue to work on yourself every single day.
I mean, maybe you suck.
Right, right.
Because you can love yourself for who you are and where you're at and all the things you've done in your life, but that's not going to get you where you want to be.
Right, it doesn't mean everybody else has to love you.
Exactly.
I mean, you loving yourself is not the same.
It doesn't mean you're going to attract what you want.
You've got to continue to work on yourself.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think that this is, it's one of those areas where, again, it's easier to project out into the world what you'd like than for you to actually make yourself into something useful to somebody else.
Yeah, desirable and attractive, yeah.
Yeah, and I also think that we have, as a society, set up certain barriers and expectations.
I think that men think that women, for example, don't actually want them to be straightforward.
We've watched too many movies where it's like somebody becomes friends with the girl and then ends up with the girl.
And the best way to get friend-zoned is to actually become friends with the girl first.
I've never been a fan of this particular strategy.
Be straightforward.
I see these guys and they're dating in groups.
You'll see guys and girls go out in groups together.
I'm thinking, what are you doing?
What are you doing?
Maybe this is just because I have a wonderful wife.
And you would direct.
You're like, I'm looking to get married.
Are you ready?
This is pretty much it.
Yeah, I mean, I'm the first date.
But it was really, there's this, I think the culture right now, because we've created this fear between the sexes, where women are very much afraid that men are going to victimize them, and men are afraid of being rejected by women and destroyed by women, that what it's created is this dearth of men who are willing to just walk up to a woman and ask her on a date.
Yeah.
All the women I talked to said that they would like that.
There's only maybe one or two women who are like, yeah, I don't want anyone to come up to me when I'm alone at a coffee shop.
It's very rare.
I've heard it a couple of times.
It's very rare.
Most women are like, no one talks to me anymore.
Or the only way they talk to me is just by liking a photo on Instagram because it's like the safe way.
It's from a distance.
But I wish someone would come up to me.
I wish someone would talk to me.
It doesn't mean you have to be sleazy and hit on someone.
You can just have a conversation, be a human being.
And I think we've lost the art of just human connection between the sexes.
What do you think is the best way to meet somebody so I had it easy my sister fixed me up with my wife I don't think it should be easy.
I think you should challenge yourself That's why it's like people are taking the the swipe left and swipe right approach with I've heard great stories of people finding marriages and relationships from that But I think we're afraid to get rejected so much that we hide behind other layers to try to meet someone again Not wrong.
I just think It's going to feel that much better when you do the hard work.
Anytime you do the challenging, scary hard work, you're going to feel more proud of yourself.
It's not easy.
I'm not saying it's going to be fun when you get rejected 10 times in a row, but I think you learn how to become a better person through that process of rejection.
And that's what makes you a better human being. - So random question for you, since you're a sports guy.
So I need to ask you, since you did play actual professional football, do you think that there is a, I know, random question, is there a future to football?
Are people gonna let their kids play football?
Would you let your kids play football? - That's a good question.
My mom wouldn't let me play until I was 15.
And I pretty much just said, I'm doing this.
You know, looking back, I don't know if I, like it was the greatest time of my life and it set me up for so many opportunities.
But I have so many injuries.
I broke three ribs twice.
Both my shoulders are messed up, ankles, and the head trauma.
I literally think I was just stupid in school for hitting so much in my head.
I don't know where that's going to lead in the future.
I led with my helmet every single play.
Who knows how that's going to affect me long term.
Luckily, I feel pretty good right now.
I don't feel like it has in any way.
But they're changing the rules so much where you can't hit with the head anymore.
And I think if they continue to do that, it'll be around for a long time.
You think they're just going to go to flag flip ball at a certain point here?
Who knows?
I mean, it's getting so soft, in my opinion.
It's like, gosh, these guys have it, you know, it's so soft because of the rules.
It's not on them.
It's the refs, you know.
I think it's good.
I think it'll go flag football and then there'll be room for a UFC-type football league where people are just like, you know what?
People signed up to get their brains knocked in.
That's rugby.
Exactly.
Rugby will make a comeback in the United States.
So when it comes to your sort of future, where do you see yourself five years from now?
I really just want to be a symbol of inspiration and positivity.
I want to impact 100 million people a week.
That's my current mission.
So everything I do is focused on how can I create media and information that supports reaching 100 million people a week.
To give them different ideas, solutions, examples, inspiring stories like yours.
to have an example to improve their life.
- Who've you been, I mean, you've interviewed a bunch of people, so who've been your favorites, aside from me, obviously, but who've been your favorites to interview? - Most controversial, no, I'm sorry. - Getting all the online hate, but. - I like when I have spiritual thought leaders or former pastors on who just have different ideas but. - I like when I have spiritual thought leaders I've had, you know, Kobe Bryant was great.
I've had, you know, Tony Robbins was someone that I was fascinated by.
I've had on a few times.
I like having billionaires on.
Sarah Blakely, who was the youngest female billionaire in America.
She was fascinating.
I like to just not make it the same person.
You know, I've had world-class athletes.
Billionaires to spiritual leaders to entrepreneurs.
And for me, it's learning from all types of people and mixing it up.
So not having the same person every time, but constantly learning different perspectives and different belief sets from individuals.
For me, that's what's exciting.
And not saying I'm gonna take every new belief from someone, but what's one thing I can grab and start testing and applying to improve my life?
So I like people of all walks of life.
Who were your chief influences growing up?
I had some great coaches that I really leaned on when I was trying to be a great athlete who were really influential.
My dad and my mom obviously were very inspiring.
My dad would always, you know, he was a life insurance salesman so he worked very hard and he would come home every night and tuck me in and, you know, say a prayer with me and he came to every sports game in high school.
And I went to a private boarding school.
And he would fly every week and come see me and was on the field taking photos.
So again, he was another great example of how to be there for me and as a son.
Man, he was always there for me.
And a lot of the other parents weren't there.
And I thought that was a great example.
So, coaches, parents, my older brother is a hero of mine.
He's 11 years older.
And even though he was in prison for four years, I would go visit him every weekend.
We would take a two and a half hour drive to visit him in the visiting room.
And I learned a lot from being in a prison every single week by seeing other inmates with their families.
You know, some of these inmates were so emotionally and mentally free, yet they were in prison their whole life, or going to be in prison their whole life.
And then I would come in the outside world and see that there were so many people who were physically free but emotionally trapped, mentally trapped, in bars in their own heart.
And I thought that was like the greatest crime that we commit, is being free physically but not reaching our potential.
When there are people behind bars who are emotionally and mentally free, some of them, and don't have the opportunities we do anymore because of the actions they've committed.
I'm influenced by a lot of people.
I'm inspired by a lot of people.
Even people that may be like the worst of the worst.
I feel like I can learn from anyone.
And that's what I try to do.
So I have one final question for you.
I do want to ask you, what is the worst advice you've ever received?
I want to find out what the worst advice you've ever received is.
And we'll have Lewis Howes answer that question in just one second.
But if you want to hear the answer, you have to go over to dailywire.com and hit subscribe.
That's all you have to do.
Just subscribe and hear the end of our conversation over there at dailywire.com.
This is gonna be a good one, so make sure you subscribe.
Well, Lewis Howes, thank you so much for stopping by.
His book is The Mask of Masculinity.
You should check out his podcast, The School of Greatness, as well.
Lewis, it's a real pleasure to have you.
- Nice to have you, thank you so much. - Appreciate it, thank you. - The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special is produced by Jonathan Hay.
Executive producer Jeremy Boring.
Associate producer Mathis Glover.
Edited by Donovan Fowler.
Audio is mixed by Dylan Case.
Hair and makeup is by Jeswa Olvera.
Title graphics by Cynthia Angulo.
The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special is a Daily Wire production.
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