DEBRIEFED - Chris Ramsay - Real Life Psychic Spy: Hostages, Crucifixion, 3I/Atlas & Channeling — Angela Ford | ep 62
Aired: 2025-11-14
Duration: 02:18:57


=== The Stargate Program (04:43) ===

[00:00:00]  You were involved in one of the most important, in my opinion, one of the most important programs that the U.S. government's ever funded, which was the Stargate program.
[00:00:09]  You know, 17 out of the 19 intelligence agencies that used Stargate, 17 of them came back for new missions.
[00:00:16]  And out of the 20 years that Stargate was around, they did 505 missions.
[00:00:21]  I mean, you have CIA, FBI, Customs, DEA.
[00:00:25]  That's right.
[00:00:25]  Army intelligence, Navy intelligence, Air Force intelligence.
[00:00:30]  All of it.
[00:00:33]  Gaddafi, he had a chemical plant.
[00:00:35]  Intelligence couldn't tell for sure, and they didn't know how he was getting the chemicals to the plant.
[00:00:41]  I got the name of a vessel, I called it the potato, like you spell it like potato.
[00:00:47]  It goes from Turkey to Greece or whatever, and then it comes up here.
[00:00:51]  And I said, and I think that that's how the chemicals are coming in.
[00:00:54]  And the analyst said, well, it's not potato, it's potato.
[00:00:58]  It's a B.
[00:00:59]  And then this guy called the general who was the head of operations and said, We're going to launch a submarine based on my information.
[00:01:08]  Well, that really was pressure.
[00:01:09]  Whoa.
[00:01:13]  Do you have synesthesia?
[00:01:15]  Yes.
[00:01:15]  You do.
[00:01:16]  That was one of the things they found out later on that the psychics that they had worked with at Stargate were mostly synesthetes.
[00:01:24]  What is your synesthesia like?
[00:01:27]  Colors, colors.
[00:01:29]  I see colors around people.
[00:01:30]  You see colors around people?
[00:01:32]  Aura, auras.
[00:01:33]  Do you see mine?
[00:01:33]  Really?
[00:01:41]  I've had two UFO sightings and I've also had, you know, a few minutes with an ET.
[00:01:48]  So I've seen, I felt like.
[00:01:51]  I went through a portal and I saw, I think it was one of the ones, the grays.
[00:01:58]  Are they the ones with the black eyes?
[00:01:59]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:02:04]  This is putting you on a spot.
[00:02:05]  Would you be open to doing a session today?
[00:02:07]  Yeah, I'll do a session.
[00:02:08]  Really?
[00:02:09]  Yeah, I need, yeah.
[00:02:10]  I'll get you a pen and paper.
[00:02:11]  What do you need?
[00:02:12]  Pen, pencil?
[00:02:13]  Pen and paper?
[00:02:14]  Go ahead and ask a question.
[00:02:17]  What's the purpose of this?
[00:02:21]  What I'm doing now?
[00:02:25]  Okay.
[00:02:26]  There goes channeling, okay?
[00:02:30]  Have you RV'd or have an opinion on 3Eye Atlas?
[00:02:34]  Oh, yeah.
[00:02:35]  It's supposed to be coming or something.
[00:02:36]  Yes.
[00:02:37]  Some people are saying it's a big alien ship.
[00:02:39]  Other people are saying it's an asteroid.
[00:02:40]  I have not remote viewed it.
[00:02:42]  I'm very interested in it, and I may go remote view it.
[00:02:45]  Could you keep me in touch if you do?
[00:02:46]  Yes, I will.
[00:02:47]  I will.
[00:02:47]  I will go home and do it and I will email you my results.
[00:02:52]  I do have a question.
[00:02:53]  You let me know if you're comfortable with this.
[00:02:55]  When you were on The Sean Ryan Show, you had stopped at a certain question.
[00:03:00]  You know what I'm referring to?
[00:03:02]  I know everybody asked about that.
[00:03:03]  Have you tried to look into the crucifixion?
[00:03:15]  December 20th, 2021, when me and my dad were driving in Colorado Springs near the Space Force base, and we saw six lights appear in the sky out of nowhere.
[00:03:31]  Basically, two triangular patterns, and then all of a sudden, a black, like, triangular spaceship appeared out of nowhere.
[00:03:43]  And I tried to pull up my phone, and it told me it's not going to work.
[00:03:49]  This is a gift.
[00:03:51]  Just embrace the moment.
[00:03:55]  Angela Ford, thank you so much for coming here and finally being able to sit down with me and have a conversation.
[00:04:04]  I'm so excited to have you.
[00:04:05]  Welcome.
[00:04:06]  I am so excited to be here.
[00:04:08]  We've had some problems with me getting here, but I am so happy to be here.
[00:04:11]  And thank you for the opportunity.
[00:04:13]  Absolutely.
[00:04:13]  I have so much I wanted to talk to you about.
[00:04:16]  And, you know, prior to this, we were sharing a coffee and I was just biting my tongue the whole time because we got to save some of this for the podcast.
[00:04:24]  You were involved in one of the most important, in my opinion, one of the most important programs that the US government's ever funded, which was the Stargate program.
[00:04:34]  But prior to that, you were also working in intelligence for the government.
[00:04:38]  Could you fill us in a little bit about your history prior to entering Stargate?

=== Applying to the FBI (04:20) ===

[00:04:43]  Okay.
[00:04:43]  Well, first of all, when I was very young, very young, I would say four, five, six years old, I had a lot of out of body experiences.
[00:04:54]  And so I knew what out of body was, and I used to have dreams, and sometimes my dreams would come true.
[00:05:02]  So I would tell my mother, and my mother would listen.
[00:05:07]  So she never told me that she never discouraged anything.
[00:05:11]  So, as I got older, there were times that I may have had psychic experiences, but I never really talked about it.
[00:05:19]  And my mother was very, she had an interest in the occult.
[00:05:25]  I can remember her buying magazines and books.
[00:05:28]  And I think she even, well, she did.
[00:05:30]  She bought an encyclopedia of the occult that's still at my house.
[00:05:33]  Really?
[00:05:34]  So, she had an interest, but she was actually very psychic, which we found out years later.
[00:05:41]  So, I grew up in a small town in western Pennsylvania.
[00:05:45]  It was in Indiana County.
[00:05:48]  In Indiana, Pennsylvania, was where Jimmy Stewart was born and raised.
[00:05:52]  I went to the local college there.
[00:05:54]  It was called Indiana University of Pennsylvania, and I received a degree in political science.
[00:06:01]  Now, the year that I graduated from college, I didn't have a job.
[00:06:06]  I didn't know what I was going to do.
[00:06:08]  So there was a night, you can take these nighttime classes.
[00:06:12]  I think they cost like $35 for six weeks.
[00:06:15]  And there was a chemistry professor that taught at the university, but he held a night class in ESP.
[00:06:22]  So I took his class.
[00:06:24]  Well, what happened was, I applied to the FBI.
[00:06:27]  My sister had a criminology degree.
[00:06:30]  So we applied to go to Washington, D.C. to work for the FBI.
[00:06:35]  And I had to quit the class because I received a nighttime job.
[00:06:40]  So I had to quit the class because I had to go to work to make the money so I could come down to D.C.
[00:06:46]  Well, and the FBI job had nothing to do with the ESP stuff.
[00:06:49]  No, nothing.
[00:06:50]  Totally, yeah, totally unrelated.
[00:06:52]  Yeah, my sister wanted to be a cop, but they weren't, she wanted to be, but in Pennsylvania, the state police academy in Pennsylvania didn't have the funds and it wasn't opening up for a couple of years.
[00:07:05]  So we just, we decided the FBI may be a better way to go.
[00:07:10]  So we came down and we worked for the FBI and it had nothing to do with anything being psychic.
[00:07:16]  And the FBI didn't pay me that much money.
[00:07:19]  And I worked with a woman whose husband was in Army intelligence and she left.
[00:07:25]  She left the FBI and she called me about one or several months later and she told me that the Army intelligence was looking for political science with people with political science degrees.
[00:07:38]  They were offering them internships for two or three years.
[00:07:43]  So I applied and they hired me.
[00:07:46]  Now I think they hired me because I already had a clearance.
[00:07:50]  So it was easy just to transfer me over because.
[00:07:53]  If you have to do a background investigation and get someone a clearance, it costs a lot of money.
[00:08:00]  And that was just a secret clearance?
[00:08:02]  No, it was higher than that.
[00:08:03]  Really?
[00:08:04]  Oh, yeah.
[00:08:04]  What clearance was it?
[00:08:05]  SCCI.
[00:08:07]  Really?
[00:08:08]  Oh, yeah.
[00:08:08]  Wow.
[00:08:09]  Okay.
[00:08:09]  So I went to Army Intelligence and they had me on an internship for, I think, three years.
[00:08:15]  And what I needed to learn was how the intelligence community works.
[00:08:20]  So they sent me to different offices and I took different classes.
[00:08:24]  And, you know, you learn how you.
[00:08:27]  How you collect information, how you analyze it, how you disseminate it, how you write papers for policymakers.
[00:08:34]  And then at the end of the two to three years, they give you a job.
[00:08:37]  And I ended up at the end of three years being a Central American analyst during the early 1980s, which was exciting because you Exciting because you had Noriega, you had the Sandinista brothers in Nicaragua, the communists.
[00:08:54]  There were insurgencies in El Salvador and Honduras.
[00:09:00]  And it was just a hotbed.

=== Metaphysical Classes Begin (03:03) ===

[00:09:04]  It was an exciting time to work in a place like that.
[00:09:08]  Probably never a dull moment.
[00:09:10]  Yes.
[00:09:11]  And that every week I would have to give briefings to the general and the general staff of the recent.
[00:09:17]  So I liked it.
[00:09:18]  So This must have been around 1983, 1983.
[00:09:27]  So I was working as an analyst, and my mother had called me one night, and she said that it was the fall, and she said, I'm looking for something to do.
[00:09:37]  I want to take a class.
[00:09:39]  So I told her, her and her friends decided to take that ESP class from the professor at the university.
[00:09:48]  So I told her, I said, just take that ESP class.
[00:09:51]  You'll like it.
[00:09:52]  Well, my.
[00:09:53]  My mother and two of her friends took it, and what they found out was my mother was really good at psychometry, where you could hold an object and tell, like, if you had somebody's psychometry, you could hold like the jewelry, like a ring or a watch, and you could get information from that.
[00:10:14]  Yes.
[00:10:14]  Interesting.
[00:10:15]  Yeah.
[00:10:15]  So my mother, she was good at that.
[00:10:19]  So my father died during that time.
[00:10:25]  And I was having a very difficult time with his death.
[00:10:27]  And my mother sent me a book, and it was called A World Beyond by Ruth Montgomery.
[00:10:33]  And she said, Read this book, it will help you understand your father's death.
[00:10:38]  Well, Ruth Montgomery did automatic writing, she was a channelist.
[00:10:43]  So I read this book, and I just resonated with it.
[00:10:48]  Sometimes I just think I just resonated with the book, and I said, I think I'm going to try this automatic writing.
[00:10:54]  And I did.
[00:10:56]  And I started to get information about, um, what happens to some, you know, when you go beyond the veil.
[00:11:03]  Um, I was receiving information about relatives, both, you know, on, on that, on both sides.
[00:11:11]  Um, and I was just receiving information and I liked it.
[00:11:15]  So, my sister also started the automatic writing, and my sister was taking an astrology class at the time because we always had the interest in the paranormal.
[00:11:27]  At some point, it was always in and out of our lives.
[00:11:31]  So, her astrology teacher knew that we were doing automatic writing, and she said we were doing it about a month.
[00:11:38]  And the lady told my sister, she said, both of you should go see, should attend the Fred Mansbridge Institute.
[00:11:45]  He had a metaphysical.
[00:11:48]  He taught metaphysical classes in Alexandria, Virginia.
[00:11:52]  So I started to study with Fred Mansbridge.
[00:11:55]  Now, unbeknownst to me, during that time, I had found out that Army intelligence had these remote viewers sitting at Fort Meade that was remote viewing it.
[00:12:05]  I'm like, well, why didn't I know this?

=== Remote Viewing at Fort Meade (15:03) ===

[00:12:07]  Well, because it was a special access program, it was compartmentalized.
[00:12:11]  And if I didn't have the need to know, I was not going to know about it.
[00:12:17]  So I approached the general, Stubblebine.
[00:12:20]  How did you hear about this?
[00:12:22]  Oh, this is how I heard about it.
[00:12:25]  General.
[00:12:26]  Because it was like, I mean, that was like, mum's the word on that type of stuff.
[00:12:29]  Special access programs are, you know.
[00:12:31]  This is how I heard about it.
[00:12:34]  No matter who the general was, they inherited that program.
[00:12:40]  If you were, if you, whatever general was ahead of Army intelligence, they inherited the program.
[00:12:46]  But in the early 1980s, a man by the name of General Burt Stubblebein came along and he was interested in this stuff anyway.
[00:12:55]  And he'd He would bend spoons and he had a man, Colonel John Alexander, who would walk on fire.
[00:13:02]  And they were always looking for people that, you know, expand your mind.
[00:13:07]  They want, you know, soldiers that, you know, use your mental abilities.
[00:13:11]  So they were taking trips on weekends down to the Monroe Institute because the Army intelligence was stationed in Arlington, Virginia.
[00:13:21]  So on a Friday night, they would pick you up on the bus and take, I don't know if it was a two or three hour drive.
[00:13:28]  Drive and then they would come back on a Sunday evening.
[00:13:31]  So you had this, you had a chance to go down to the Monroe Institute.
[00:13:37]  So I said, Well, sign me up.
[00:13:39]  I want to go.
[00:13:40]  Well, the first time I was on the list, there was a woman who her name was Charlene.
[00:13:45]  She put me on the list.
[00:13:47]  Well, she called me up and she said, I have to take you off the list because some colonel from Hawaii is flying in from that command and he wants to go to Monroe.
[00:13:56]  So I was taken off the list.
[00:13:59]  So then the second time I was supposed to go, I got a call and they said, You're taken off the list again.
[00:14:08]  So I said, Okay.
[00:14:10]  Well, then the third time, she called me into the office, into where she did the list, into her office.
[00:14:17]  And she said, Okay, she said, This isn't really fair to you, but I'll fight for you to go this time.
[00:14:27]  They were going to take me off the list for the third time.
[00:14:29]  Because they didn't want to have to read you into the program?
[00:14:33]  No, because people higher rank were overriding me to go.
[00:14:38]  Right.
[00:14:38]  Okay, I see.
[00:14:40]  This had nothing to do with the remote viewers at Fort Meade.
[00:14:43]  I see.
[00:14:43]  It was detached.
[00:14:44]  It was separate.
[00:14:45]  It was totally separate.
[00:14:46]  So you had no idea about Stargate at this point?
[00:14:48]  No, I still didn't know anything about Stargate.
[00:14:52]  I just thought that Stubblebine was, you know, he just wanted people with these abilities.
[00:14:56]  It was a free ride down to Monroe.
[00:14:58]  Monroe cost a lot of money.
[00:15:00]  What a way to, you know, it would have been a great opportunity.
[00:15:04]  No, the reason I kept being taken off the list is because other people that overranked me.
[00:15:11]  High ranking people.
[00:15:12]  I see.
[00:15:13]  Like if a colonel was going to fly from Hawaii.
[00:15:15]  I mean, it must have been quite popular if all of these high ranking officials were going to Monroe.
[00:15:22]  I mean, there must have been something to it.
[00:15:24]  I think so.
[00:15:25]  I don't know if they were interested or if they were just trying to please the general, too.
[00:15:28]  I see.
[00:15:29]  I don't know.
[00:15:30]  Good point.
[00:15:31]  I don't know.
[00:15:33]  But I think the third time I looked at the list and there were two people that I worked with.
[00:15:38]  And they were going, and I just didn't want to go with them.
[00:15:41]  I felt like I just didn't feel comfortable.
[00:15:43]  So I said, no, I didn't want to go.
[00:15:45]  So then eventually, I don't know how I found it.
[00:15:50]  I think it was Charlene or there was another girl, and they had talked about the psychics at Fort Meade or the remote viewers.
[00:15:57]  And it just, I was just surprised.
[00:15:59]  So I kind of approached the general to see if I could get involved.
[00:16:04]  But he said he was retiring.
[00:16:06]  It was in 1984.
[00:16:07]  And he was retiring.
[00:16:10]  He lost support from the Joint Chief of Staff at the Pentagon.
[00:16:14]  I think he was told to cease and desist.
[00:16:18]  And so he.
[00:16:19]  He retired so that he could get out and still do his, he still wanted to do the paranormal.
[00:16:26]  What was the reason that he was getting flack?
[00:16:31]  Was it the MKUltra stuff?
[00:16:33]  Was it.
[00:16:34]  No, what happened was there was one, there's a Joint Chief of Staff at the Pentagon for intelligence.
[00:16:42]  And there was one man that held that position for a long time.
[00:16:46]  And there was a young captain, Skip Atwater from APA.
[00:16:50]  Okay.
[00:16:51]  Fred Atwater had a very high interest in ESP.
[00:16:54]  So he kind of whispered in this guy's ear and said, We should have military officers use psychics.
[00:17:02]  So the guy said, Okay, let's try it.
[00:17:06]  So I think at first they were using remote viewers on a part time basis.
[00:17:11]  And then I think in 1976 it was the first operational, they found an aircraft.
[00:17:18]  And so at the one in Africa?
[00:17:20]  Yes.
[00:17:21]  And at that Point, they decided to use remote viewers full time and it would come under army intelligence.
[00:17:27]  Oh, that's when they transferred it over, yeah.
[00:17:29]  Because prior to that, it was like Sunstreak and Center Lane and yeah, that was all under army intelligence, right?
[00:17:36]  Because Fret, what because of this joint chief of staff, yeah, okay, we'll do it.
[00:17:41]  Well, he, but then what happened was, I guess he retired or stepped down, and the new person that took his place just didn't want any part of it.
[00:17:50]  Ah, I see.
[00:17:51]  So, this was in 1984, and General Stubblebein was like.
[00:17:55]  Then I'll just retire because he really was interested in the whole thing.
[00:18:00]  He said, I'll just go out and start my own company.
[00:18:02]  Yeah, he was very gung ho about this stuff.
[00:18:04]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:04]  And so I thought, well, there goes my chance.
[00:18:10]  So I didn't understand this, but this is how it all fell out, which I didn't know at the time.
[00:18:16]  Now, you had Army intelligence and they had the remote viewers.
[00:18:21]  Well, in the meantime, you had the Defense Intelligence Agency.
[00:18:25]  There was a man there by the name of Dr. Jackson.
[00:18:27]  Verona, who was a scientist, and Dr. Verona was giving small contracts to SRI to start looking into paranormal research.
[00:18:39]  Really?
[00:18:40]  Yeah, he was, it was small contracts.
[00:18:41]  It wasn't a lot, but he was funding SRI.
[00:18:46]  There was a man down in Ohio.
[00:18:49]  He worked for the Foreign Technology Division.
[00:18:52]  His name was Dale Graff, and Dale was very psychic and he did a lot with dreams.
[00:18:58]  And when Dale won, he was, he was, he won an award and he was going to get, he was given a sabbatical and he could go to, he could do whatever he wanted to do in one year.
[00:19:13]  So he wanted to go to Princeton.
[00:19:15]  He wanted to go to Durham, North Carolina.
[00:19:18]  He wanted to go to SRI.
[00:19:20]  All the hotspots.
[00:19:21]  All the spots we were doing parapsychology research.
[00:19:24]  And when one of his bosses found out, they said, no, you're not going to do that.
[00:19:29]  And they rescinded his.
[00:19:31]  His wow, yeah, they wouldn't let him do it.
[00:19:33]  So, when Jack and Dale was an analyst, and so Dale was watching what the Soviets were doing, also because he was and he's a scientist, Dale was a scientist.
[00:19:44]  So, Dale was getting access through intelligence reports too of what the Soviets were doing.
[00:19:50]  So, and I think he was giving the report, he was making, he was ensuring that Dr. Verona was getting the reports.
[00:19:58]  And so, you know, they're, you know, well, the Soviets are doing it, we need to do it, and they would run to Congress and we need money to do this.
[00:20:05]  So when Dale's award was taken away, Dr. Verona said, Well, why don't you just come work for me?
[00:20:15]  And he did.
[00:20:15]  Dale left Ohio.
[00:20:19]  So you had Dr. Verona and you had Dale Graff at headquarters.
[00:20:25]  They were funding the research and they were also doing something.
[00:20:29]  It was called foreign assessment, finding out what the other countries were doing.
[00:20:34]  And it was mostly.
[00:20:36]  The Soviet Union, you know, and there was Brazil and other countries, but it was really the Soviets.
[00:20:41]  That were dabbling in psychic stuff as well?
[00:20:43]  Brazil?
[00:20:44]  Really?
[00:20:44]  Oh, yeah.
[00:20:45]  Oh, yeah.
[00:20:45]  Okay.
[00:20:45]  Well, yeah, you looked at their cultures, like who, yeah, called Brazil, Portugal.
[00:20:50]  So, so I guess this was in 1984, General Stubblebein retired.
[00:20:58]  Now, because he retired and this program was in these remote viewers were no longer going to exist.
[00:21:04]  From what I understood, is the people, the remote viewers sitting at Fort Meade were sort of sitting around and they were waiting for orders to find out where their next assignment was.
[00:21:16]  Who were these remote viewers?
[00:21:18]  They were mostly military.
[00:21:19]  Yeah.
[00:21:20]  They would have been Joe McMonagall.
[00:21:21]  It would have been Joe, Joe retired in 1984.
[00:21:25]  It would have been Joe McMonagall, Mal Riley, I think Lynn Buchanan, Fred Atwater was the operations officer, Ed Dames was a trainer.
[00:21:35]  Bill Ray, he was a remote viewer, but he was the boss.
[00:21:39]  You had a secretary there, Charlie, uh, Jeannie.
[00:21:42]  And then we had Charlene there.
[00:21:44]  She was civilian.
[00:21:46]  So pretty tight, pretty tight crew.
[00:21:48]  And they, you know, like if programs exist or whatever, they really, you know, so they were sitting around thinking, well, you know, where do we go from here?
[00:21:56]  I think Charlene was in person now.
[00:21:58]  She would have, they would have found her something.
[00:22:01]  Well, at that point, Dr. Verona went to Congress and said, please do not, he said, don't leave the remote viewers operational and just transfer the bill, they called them billets, or transfer them from Army intelligence to DIA, which took about a year to do.
[00:22:22]  So that would have been 1985, because in January 1986, I was transferred in.
[00:22:30]  Yeah, Paul Smith came down and started interviewing me for the job.
[00:22:35]  So, Paul Smith was head of making or vetting people?
[00:22:39]  I think he was the training officer, but I'm sure I got in by the general's recommendation.
[00:22:46]  Yes.
[00:22:47]  And in January 1986, it started my process.
[00:22:51]  And that was, it was still at this point, I guess, a special access program.
[00:22:55]  Yes, it was.
[00:22:56]  It was.
[00:22:56]  Yeah.
[00:22:57]  Wow.
[00:22:58]  So now that you're in, you're in the club.
[00:23:02]  How does that feel coming in from the outside being interested in this stuff sort of tangentially?
[00:23:08]  You're getting your feet wet, so to speak, with automatic writing and hearing whispers of this remote viewing program.
[00:23:16]  How is that feeling?
[00:23:17]  First of all, as a woman coming into this place that's pretty heavily male dominated at this point, what are you feeling?
[00:23:25]  Well, I had just left it.
[00:23:27]  When I was hired by Army Intelligence, I had three years of an internship with military, and then I had.
[00:23:34]  And then I had the Central American analyst with the military.
[00:23:38]  So I was used to the military thinking.
[00:23:42]  I was a female civilian.
[00:23:44]  They don't think it's a boys club.
[00:23:48]  They say that they're not prejudiced, but they are.
[00:23:54]  Sure.
[00:23:55]  So you feel it.
[00:23:58]  You feel it that the military is the military.
[00:24:02]  I can remember working as a Central American analyst and having young female lieutenants.
[00:24:08]  Coming into the program, and I, you know, I had four or five years' experience on them, and they were getting, but in they were getting more respect than I was because of the military.
[00:24:19]  They wore the uniform, the females wore the uniform.
[00:24:21]  I see.
[00:24:22]  They were, you know, everybody thought, oh, they're smart.
[00:24:25]  They can do this, they can do that.
[00:24:26]  And you were treated as a civilian to them, sort of.
[00:24:31]  I see, I see.
[00:24:33]  So by the time I went there, I was, I knew the mentality.
[00:24:38]  If anything, I was working at a higher echelon before I went.
[00:24:43]  That's right.
[00:24:44]  Before I went to the psychic program.
[00:24:46]  So when they started their shenanigans, it was like amateur stuff.
[00:24:50]  It was like amateur hour.
[00:24:54]  Yeah.
[00:24:54]  Yeah, that does make sense.
[00:24:56]  Yeah, you were coming in from a pretty high position, TSSEI clearance, you know, very sensitive stuff.
[00:25:02]  And briefing generals.
[00:25:03]  I mean, just briefing generals.
[00:25:06]  And I mean, it was tough.
[00:25:07]  I remember one general, he told me, I said, I gave some information wrong.
[00:25:13]  And I was right.
[00:25:14]  I had an aviator go in and said, no, she's right.
[00:25:17]  So it's tough.
[00:25:18]  It was tough.
[00:25:20]  So now that you're in, what does the sort of first day on the job in terms of Getting a target.
[00:25:29]  Are they even giving you targets early on or are they training you?
[00:25:32]  The training.
[00:25:33]  First of all, you're going.
[00:25:34]  Well, the first day I went in, I now there I was.
[00:25:39]  I had studied at the Mansbridge Institute.
[00:25:42]  I was doing the automatic writing and actually I was starting to do psychic readings, although I wasn't charging people.
[00:25:51]  My sister was working at a restaurant and she would send people over to the apartment so I could get them readings.
[00:25:57]  But so I went in.
[00:25:59]  I felt like this is where I belonged.
[00:26:02]  I felt like I was psychic and this is, hey, this is where I belong.
[00:26:06]  So the first day I went in, I was told that they said, We heard about you and that what you have is a bad habit.
[00:26:13]  My automatic writing, my channeling.
[00:26:15]  Who said that?
[00:26:16]  Fred Atwater, Skip Atwater.
[00:26:18]  He said, This is a bad habit and we don't want you to do that here.
[00:26:22]  We're going to teach you the right way on how to remote view.
[00:26:26]  So by that time, I had enough experience in the military, and I know that I have many times I have upset people, maybe by not following the chain of command or doing.
[00:26:39]  I just had a way of just, I guess, I just had a way of upsetting people.
[00:26:44]  So at that point, I just thought, you know what, just go with it because I really wanted to be there.
[00:26:49]  Yeah.
[00:26:50]  So you were willing to set aside what you had learned and said, okay, teach me.
[00:26:55]  So how was it?
[00:26:56]  Because I had spoken to Ed Dames.
[00:26:58]  Two years ago, when we were doing this journey through remote viewing and went down, met him.
[00:27:05]  He's in Northern California, I think near Sacramento or something, and sat with him and talked with him.
[00:27:10]  He likes to talk.

=== Training Under Gene Estabrook (06:45) ===

[00:27:11]  He's definitely very passionate about the remote viewing stuff, but he definitely has his own lane and this is how we do things.
[00:27:19]  Was he there while you were?
[00:27:22]  Oh, yes.
[00:27:23]  Was he also against the automatic writing?
[00:27:26]  Because I get that feeling.
[00:27:28]  Oh, yes.
[00:27:28]  He was definitely against it.
[00:27:31]  He would stand.
[00:27:32]  Oh, yeah.
[00:27:32]  I mean, he would almost beg me not to do it.
[00:27:35]  You shouldn't do that.
[00:27:36]  Don't do that.
[00:27:37]  Don't do that.
[00:27:38]  No, he was hard nosed.
[00:27:40]  Yeah, he gave me a hard time.
[00:27:41]  Interesting that he was hard nosed because he's also known for remote viewing the Holy Grail and like.
[00:27:47]  Well, and the thing was, when I went, there were books there.
[00:27:51]  Do you remember Jane Roberts?
[00:27:53]  She did the Seth materials.
[00:27:54]  Well, that was trans channeling.
[00:27:57]  The entity would enter her.
[00:27:58]  Well, there were books there.
[00:27:59]  And I'm like, well, surely they know about Seth and they know trans channeling.
[00:28:06]  And they know so much.
[00:28:08]  Why are they stopping me from doing what I'm doing?
[00:28:10]  And, but because it wasn't protocol.
[00:28:14]  Because they were the military and they had the coordinate remote viewing.
[00:28:18]  It was step by step that the manual that SRI told Ingo to do.
[00:28:25]  Right.
[00:28:26]  So, no, they did not like it.
[00:28:28]  They did not like it.
[00:28:29]  So, okay, you learn this new technique to you, which has been taught by Ingo to all of the.
[00:28:36]  No, I did not learn coordinate remote viewing.
[00:28:39]  I learned.
[00:28:39]  Extended remote viewing.
[00:28:41]  Ah, right.
[00:28:41]  And extended remote viewing was there before coordinate remote viewing.
[00:28:45]  And the reason they put me in extended remote viewing because Ed Dames was training people in coordinate remote viewing and he had all of, he probably was training everybody, I think, at the time except Lynn Buchanan and the boss, Bill Ray.
[00:29:01]  Now, there was a man there by the name of Gene Lessman and Gene was in Germany working.
[00:29:06]  And when you're a civilian working overseas, you're only allowed to stay in that country for five years.
[00:29:12]  His five years were up.
[00:29:14]  So he called his friend Bill Ray and said, I need a job.
[00:29:18]  I'm coming back to the States.
[00:29:19]  I need a job.
[00:29:20]  So Bill Ray said, Well, come on, I'll give you a job.
[00:29:23]  So Gene Lesman got in the program.
[00:29:26]  Now, Gene Lesman was not psychic.
[00:29:28]  I don't know if he had an interest or not, but I think what happened was that you had two trainers.
[00:29:37]  You had Ed Dames and Gene Lessman, and Ed Dames had most of the training, and Gene didn't have anybody.
[00:29:45]  So I came in, and I think because Gene needed somebody to train, they gave me to him.
[00:29:51]  I see.
[00:29:51]  So anyway, but anyway.
[00:29:54]  Maybe for the best, though.
[00:29:55]  It was okay, but Gene gave me a hard time, too.
[00:29:58]  But I did extended remote viewing.
[00:30:01]  And what I did prior to going to the program, I was waiting for my clearances to be passed from Army Intelligence to Defense Intelligence Agency.
[00:30:11]  I bought a book and it was called The Silva Mind Control by Dr. Jose Silva.
[00:30:16]  Yeah, learning in your sleep and that type of stuff.
[00:30:19]  And like you meditate or you pull up the picture and you turn on the TV and then you look.
[00:30:24]  So I started practicing with that.
[00:30:26]  I read it and I started to practice a little bit.
[00:30:31]  That's what extended remote viewing was.
[00:30:33]  When they started training me in extended remote viewing, to me, it was just a silver mind control.
[00:30:38]  I see.
[00:30:38]  Yeah.
[00:30:39]  It was maybe them sort of branching out to a little bit more of an open mindset to this remote viewing stuff.
[00:30:48]  Because as you know now, and as I'm sure many other people know, there's more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to this stuff.
[00:30:55]  Even you look at somebody who you mentioned, Lynn Buchanan, who I've never interviewed, but I'd love to talk to.
[00:31:04]  He was on a A show recently, a friend of mine's show, Michael Phillip, and he was talking about, yeah, sort of telekinesis and things that he was into as well.
[00:31:12]  Like he would walk into a room and this excited, I think, General Stubblebein at the time, where he fried all the computers or something.
[00:31:19]  And the general was like, Was this you?
[00:31:20]  And he was like, Yes, sir, it was.
[00:31:21]  And then the grin grew on the general's face.
[00:31:24]  So, you know, you and Lynn are in this.
[00:31:29]  We were the only ones brought in by the general.
[00:31:32]  Yeah, right.
[00:31:33]  So he saw something special in both of you, I'm sure.
[00:31:36]  And I think they resented the fact that I was brought in by the general.
[00:31:39]  Oh, yeah, that played against you a little bit.
[00:31:42]  Oh, sure, it did.
[00:31:42]  But that didn't bother me at all because I worked.
[00:31:45]  I mean, I've been around by that time, I was around long enough that if somebody high up wants to pick somebody out and help them, they're going to do it.
[00:31:53]  That's how things work a lot of the times, right?
[00:31:56]  But so you had to kind of earn your stripes, so to speak.
[00:32:00]  What was the moment that for you that happened?
[00:32:04]  Maybe not for anyone else, but for you that you had a session or you had a mission or whatever that was.
[00:32:11]  What was that like, and how did you get the results, and how did that make you feel?
[00:32:16]  Oh, you mean the first time?
[00:32:17]  The first time that really made you feel like, oh, we got this.
[00:32:20]  Well, it was training.
[00:32:21]  They train you.
[00:32:22]  So they were training me, and I think I did pretty good on the targets.
[00:32:26]  I did the.
[00:32:27]  I think they were getting more excited than I was, but they, you know, the targets were what?
[00:32:35]  I'm thinking of some of the targets.
[00:32:37]  You know, the St. Louis Ark, the Big Ark, the Washington Monument.
[00:32:47]  The Devil's Tower, these type of things.
[00:32:49]  Yeah.
[00:32:49]  Yeah.
[00:32:49]  They were okay, but it was okay.
[00:32:52]  But they were getting excited.
[00:32:53]  They were getting, yeah, if I would get it.
[00:32:55]  They were getting excited.
[00:32:56]  I was like, no big deal.
[00:32:57]  I mean, I was doing it, but.
[00:33:00]  Were you secretly doing automatic writing during these sessions?
[00:33:05]  No, no, because Gene was with me.
[00:33:07]  Gene would monitor.
[00:33:08]  He was the monitor.
[00:33:09]  I see.
[00:33:10]  Yeah, so I wasn't.
[00:33:11]  But it was okay.
[00:33:14]  But I felt.
[00:33:15]  What happened was, I felt very alone and very isolated after a while.
[00:33:22]  And I don't know why I felt that.
[00:33:25]  I think maybe because we were working in a remote location.
[00:33:29]  And I felt when I.
[00:33:31]  I gave up a lot.
[00:33:32]  I gave up.
[00:33:33]  I knew I was living in Virginia.
[00:33:35]  I had a lot of friends.
[00:33:36]  I could do a lot after work with people now.
[00:33:40]  I was in Washington, D.C., driving about an hour away.
[00:33:45]  It was a very lonely existence.
[00:33:47]  So I think after a while, it was like, what am I doing here?
[00:33:53]  You know, I can do this, I can do that.

=== Testing Anderson's Predictions (09:42) ===

[00:33:57]  So now, about a year and a half after I was into the program, I entered the program in July 1986.
[00:34:06]  About 1988, a lot of people retired.
[00:34:10]  Bill Ray retired.
[00:34:12]  Fred Atwater retired.
[00:34:15]  We brought in new people, and the new people came from the past, from the original remote viewing, from the original remote viewers that they were using back in 1976, before CRV even came along.
[00:34:31]  So these people, they said, they don't care what methodology we use, as long as you get As long as it's results oriented.
[00:34:42]  At that time, I had met Ed May and he was working at SRI.
[00:34:46]  And Ed was, he didn't care what, he said, I don't care if they stand on their head.
[00:34:52]  He said, I just want results.
[00:34:54]  So I said, I'd like to use my automatic writing.
[00:34:57]  So they said, okay, you can do your automatic writing.
[00:35:01]  So one night, I can remember being at work and I sat at my desk and all the, When all the coordinate remote viewers, Ed Dames called a meeting in the back office.
[00:35:16]  And this is what he would always take his CRV coordinate remote viewer people, and he would have these meetings and he would elaborate.
[00:35:25]  And this, I remember the secretary always telling the boss, she said, You know, he's holding these meetings.
[00:35:31]  You're the boss.
[00:35:32]  He's not the boss.
[00:35:33]  Why does he keep doing that?
[00:35:35]  And, but he was doing it.
[00:35:37]  And so one night, you know, they all walked.
[00:35:40]  By me, they don't say hello, they don't say goodbye, they completely ignore me, and they have these meetings all by themselves.
[00:35:47]  I'm sitting all by myself being ignored.
[00:35:51]  So, I just went home one night, and I can remember it was cold, I had a big gray coat on, and I just walked in my apartment and I sat at my tape dining room table like this.
[00:36:04]  And I put my head down.
[00:36:06]  I was so tired, I fell asleep.
[00:36:09]  And I woke up the next morning and I thought, and I thought to myself, I thought, what am I doing here?
[00:36:15]  I said, you know, I said, this just can't, I can't, this can't go on.
[00:36:20]  It was like a breaking point for me.
[00:36:23]  So I went to work and I went to my boss, Vern Govind, and I said, you want to try some remote viewing or some channeling?
[00:36:31]  And he said, sure.
[00:36:31]  So we went over in the back and he had a target.
[00:36:34]  It was Terry Anderson, who was a hostage.
[00:36:38]  In Lebanon.
[00:36:39]  Yep.
[00:36:40]  And we, and I started channeling.
[00:36:42]  I, you know, I said, this man is, I don't know what I said.
[00:36:45]  I said, he's in a country where he's not, he's not from this country.
[00:36:49]  I felt like he was under stress.
[00:36:51]  Well, we started to get information and I can't remember everything I said, but it was enough to, that he could, that it was able, that I locked on to the target.
[00:37:02]  What were you given prior to the session?
[00:37:05]  Nothing.
[00:37:05]  Were you giving a tasking number?
[00:37:08]  Just, Probably.
[00:37:10]  Probably like an eight digit number or something to that effect.
[00:37:13]  And they're like, this is the target.
[00:37:14]  That's it.
[00:37:15]  Yeah.
[00:37:15]  Or they may have called it automatic writing session one or something.
[00:37:21]  Right.
[00:37:21]  And that was it.
[00:37:22]  Yeah.
[00:37:22]  And then they're like, go.
[00:37:24]  And you're like, there's a man in a foreign country and he needs help or whatever it was.
[00:37:28]  Yeah.
[00:37:29]  So he locked on.
[00:37:30]  Wow.
[00:37:31]  So he was kind of excited.
[00:37:33]  He was like, so he came back and the secretary knew what I did.
[00:37:37]  And Fern kind of got excited and he said, gee.
[00:37:40]  Do you know if she does this?
[00:37:41]  And Gina goes, Yeah, I know.
[00:37:43]  She's been doing it.
[00:37:45]  So we started working.
[00:37:48]  Well, all of a sudden, we're doing all the hostages.
[00:37:52]  There were more hostages.
[00:37:53]  So Fern went down to headquarters to talk to Dr. Verona, and he said, I've got somebody up there that's doing channeling, but look at what we're getting.
[00:38:02]  Well, Dr. Verona, and Fern said, I'd like to continue with her.
[00:38:08]  And Dr. Verona goes, By all means.
[00:38:11]  So one Sunday, we got a call.
[00:38:14]  To go into work because the host, there was a man by the name of Colonel William Higgins who was kidnapped.
[00:38:21]  He was a Marine colonel that went to Lebanon and he was kidnapped.
[00:38:26]  So we got a call because he was just taken and they wanted to know where he was.
[00:38:31]  So we went to headquarters to work.
[00:38:35]  And I had put Higgins, I said, he's here and they're moving him.
[00:38:41]  And the analyst said that I was right.
[00:38:45]  That checks out.
[00:38:46]  Yeah, they said, as soon as I said they're moving him and where he was, they were receiving information from.
[00:38:51]  Same intel.
[00:38:52]  Yeah, like, yeah, you know, this is right.
[00:38:54]  So then they wanted to know where was Higgins kept.
[00:38:57]  So we're looking at pictures and imagery.
[00:39:00]  And I pointed to a location on him.
[00:39:03]  I said, he's right there.
[00:39:04]  They're keeping him right there.
[00:39:05]  There.
[00:39:05]  Well, of course, James is looking over my shoulder and he says, There's nothing there.
[00:39:10]  How can he be there?
[00:39:11]  There's nothing there but woods.
[00:39:13]  So the analyst said, That's an old picture.
[00:39:16]  You know, you don't know what there is, you know, something could be there now.
[00:39:23]  So the analyst said, That's an old picture.
[00:39:27]  So, and of course, everybody, ah, he wouldn't be there.
[00:39:31]  He wouldn't be there.
[00:39:32]  Well, a couple of weeks later, the hostages, the The terrorists, they leave hostages out every once in a while.
[00:39:40]  And there was a German hostage, his last name was Cordes.
[00:39:44]  And they let Cordes out.
[00:39:46]  And so our analysts went to Rheinmine in Germany to debrief him.
[00:39:52]  And they asked, they said, where's Higgins?
[00:39:54]  And he pointed to the same place I pointed.
[00:39:57]  And they said, but there's nothing there.
[00:39:59]  And Cordes says, yeah, but they built a building, they made a building, and that's where Higgins.
[00:40:06]  So that, yeah.
[00:40:07]  How long after was that, do you think?
[00:40:10]  How much time between when you pointed it and then they received that intel?
[00:40:14]  Say two weeks.
[00:40:15]  Two weeks.
[00:40:15]  It's a long time.
[00:40:18]  It's a long time for them not to do anything at this point where they're like, well, maybe she's onto something.
[00:40:24]  Maybe we got to use her a little bit more.
[00:40:27]  Well, they wanted to use me anyway.
[00:40:30]  Yeah.
[00:40:30]  Because they were asking about Anderson.
[00:40:33]  Everybody was really worried about Terry Anderson because he was very.
[00:40:37]  He was very hate, much, they did not like him.
[00:40:40]  Yeah.
[00:40:41]  So, so what we would do is we would, we would work the hostages and I would point where they were.
[00:40:47]  Um, I would conduct health.
[00:40:49]  I could, I could tell like health statuses.
[00:40:52]  There was one man, Poe Heel, and I said he was going to come out with a sore throat and he came out with throat cancer.
[00:40:58]  Oh my gosh.
[00:40:59]  Yeah.
[00:41:00]  So we would, we would do the reports.
[00:41:03]  We'd work during the day.
[00:41:05]  We would send the reports to the headquarters.
[00:41:07]  In the afternoon, and by night, my reports were with the Israeli embassy.
[00:41:12]  Wow.
[00:41:12]  And the Israeli embassy goes, and I, you know, they were reporting to their people in Israel.
[00:41:20]  And I had Terry Anderson in the Bacaw Valley one time, and they said, Oh, he would never be in the Bacaw Valley.
[00:41:27]  It's not the MO of the terrorists.
[00:41:30]  And he was in the Bacaw Valley.
[00:41:32]  Wow.
[00:41:33]  He was where I said he was.
[00:41:35]  Incredible.
[00:41:36]  Yeah.
[00:41:36]  Were you working alone on these targets?
[00:41:39]  Mm hmm.
[00:41:39]  You had no one else working those targets as well?
[00:41:41]  Or if they were, you wouldn't know?
[00:41:44]  Well, what happened was since I started working the hostages, well, of course, then the CRV people, they wanted to work the hostages.
[00:41:52]  Oh, yeah.
[00:41:52]  It's important work.
[00:41:53]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:54]  And also, they tried to, they wanted me to stop my channeling.
[00:41:59]  They wanted, they felt that They felt that I wasn't, that it was not science, that the channeling and the automatic writing did not have scientific, it needed to be tested.
[00:42:12]  They wanted to test it.
[00:42:13]  And they were the ones that were going to test it.
[00:42:16]  And my boss was like, No way are you going to test her.
[00:42:20]  All of a sudden, they came from ignoring me to their full attention.
[00:42:26]  And I said, You know, they didn't look at, why are they bothering me now?
[00:42:30]  They didn't bother me before.
[00:42:32]  What are they scared?
[00:42:33]  It was, yeah.
[00:42:34]  So they, of course, then they had to get all involved with the hostages.
[00:42:38]  Were you seeing any of the other, perhaps employees try this new channeling method?
[00:42:45]  Were they, no, were you rubbing off on some of them?
[00:42:48]  No, because my boss said that Dr. Verona decided to call it written remote view.
[00:42:54]  Okay.
[00:42:55]  WRV.
[00:42:55]  Now, a lot of people think my boss, Fern, made up that terminology, but it was Dr. Verona.
[00:43:05]  So Fern told the group he would hold meetings and he said, Now, if any of you want to learn WRV, he said, I want you all, Angela will teach you.
[00:43:14]  Well, they're not going to, they're not going to come to me to teach.
[00:43:18]  I mean, I'm below them.
[00:43:21]  There was no way they were going to come to me and have me, but they wanted to test me.
[00:43:26]  They wanted to, and, and I said, I said, you're not going to test me.
[00:43:30]  I said, because you're not a scientist.
[00:43:32]  I said, you're here to remote view like I am here to remote view.
[00:43:36]  And I think Paul Smith at the time had an art degree.

=== Strong Armed Shutdown (15:38) ===

[00:43:39]  Now, what would he know about, you know, if, okay, yeah.
[00:43:43]  But, you know, if you're here to remote view, you're not the scientist.
[00:43:48]  You, you know, you don't have the credentials.
[00:43:50]  So you're not going to touch me.
[00:43:53]  Yeah.
[00:43:53]  Yeah.
[00:43:54]  And that's where I guess Dr. Edwin May comes into the fold because he's definitely someone who's studied remote viewing, I think, more than anyone else in the world.
[00:44:05]  You know, he studied you for what, 30 years, probably 40 years?
[00:44:09]  Like, it's a long time to have test subjects, if you will, and have all that data, you know, that he's compiled over the years.
[00:44:17]  Really interesting.
[00:44:18]  So, okay, you're locking onto these targets that are hostages.
[00:44:23]  Hostages.
[00:44:24]  And what is it like getting feedback?
[00:44:28]  Are you receiving feedback on a day to day basis?
[00:44:32]  No, no.
[00:44:33]  They give the feedback whenever they can.
[00:44:36]  Okay.
[00:44:36]  Because it takes.
[00:44:37]  It's sensitive, too.
[00:44:38]  Yeah.
[00:44:38]  And they have to go out, they have to bring the information to the Israelis by the time they check it out and then come back.
[00:44:44]  But we were able, there were other things.
[00:44:46]  I was able to describe some of the terrorists.
[00:44:49]  And there was one point after.
[00:44:54]  We worked the hostages maybe close to two years.
[00:44:58]  And I always said they were coming out during an August, September time period.
[00:45:02]  And that's when they came out.
[00:45:03]  But there was a period where I felt like I was winding down.
[00:45:09]  It was like how much, you know, you keep doing this and doing this.
[00:45:13]  But there was a time whenever I felt like something changed.
[00:45:18]  So I was in session one time and we were asking about the hostages.
[00:45:25]  And I said, They're getting ready to be released.
[00:45:28]  And I said that there was a man by the name of Jonathan Livingston that was going to help in the release of the hostages.
[00:45:35]  Well, when the analysts heard that, they wanted to know who Jonathan Livingston was.
[00:45:40]  So at that time, they started to look through Microfish to find out who was Jonathan Livingston.
[00:45:46]  They went to the State Department to find out who was this man.
[00:45:50]  Well, one of the analysts ended up at the Pentagon in Colonel Higgins.
[00:45:57]  Had a wife who was in the military also, and her office was in the Pentagon.
[00:46:03]  And one of the analysts was in her office and he saw my report sitting there.
[00:46:07]  And he asked her, he said, Who was Jonathan Livingston?
[00:46:11]  And she said, He's a British envoy that was just sent to Lebanon to negotiate the release of the hostages.
[00:46:18]  And the reason they couldn't, our analysts could not find anything on Jonathan Livingston was because he was English.
[00:46:28]  Right.
[00:46:28]  So they didn't.
[00:46:29]  So, how did you get that name?
[00:46:31]  It just through channeling.
[00:46:32]  Through channeling.
[00:46:33]  You wrote it down.
[00:46:34]  Jonathan.
[00:46:35]  Yeah.
[00:46:35]  That's how it comes.
[00:46:36]  That's incredible.
[00:46:37]  But that's so specific.
[00:46:39]  That's not like some guy named like some initials JL or something.
[00:46:44]  That's a full name.
[00:46:45]  Oh, yeah.
[00:46:45]  That's what you.
[00:46:46]  Yeah.
[00:46:46]  Yeah.
[00:46:47]  That's incredible.
[00:46:48]  So, so anyway, when Terry Waite wrote his book, he credits Jonathan Livingston as the guy who he like who freed him or he like broke the nut, you know?
[00:47:01]  Yeah.
[00:47:02]  Wow.
[00:47:03]  Wow, that's incredible.
[00:47:05]  That is absolutely incredible.
[00:47:06]  Did you ever get to meet any of these people afterwards?
[00:47:12]  No.
[00:47:14]  Do you think they had an idea?
[00:47:15]  Because this was, again, a special access program.
[00:47:18]  Even the people freed, the hostages, other people, they had no idea you were even doing this.
[00:47:22]  No, but it was the.
[00:47:23]  What really helped me was the analysts at Defense Intelligence.
[00:47:27]  Of course.
[00:47:28]  They were the one, they were acting on My information.
[00:47:31]  Wow.
[00:47:33]  What's your conviction level that the government's still doing this, by the way, right now?
[00:47:37]  I don't know.
[00:47:38]  I mean, I think at the time that we had it, it was a very full, robust program.
[00:47:43]  It was congressionally mandated.
[00:47:47]  We had three purposes remote viewing to spy, we were looking at the research and development how does this work, paying scientists and psychiatrists or psychologists.
[00:48:00]  And the foreign assessment.
[00:48:01]  What are other countries doing?
[00:48:03]  So I don't know if it's going on in such a big way.
[00:48:07]  I don't know.
[00:48:09]  Yeah.
[00:48:09]  Or, you know, there's obviously, you know, a lot of people think, you know, Stargate moved over to SAIC and these private, you know, government contractors.
[00:48:18]  Yeah.
[00:48:19]  Probably where it would live now because it'd be, you know, impossible to subpoena if that's the case.
[00:48:25]  These congressional, this Congressional Oversight Committee that had to approve the budget.
[00:48:31]  How many times did you have to go to them?
[00:48:35]  Did the program have to go to them?
[00:48:36]  Is it every year?
[00:48:37]  No, no, no, no, not every year.
[00:48:39]  We were pretty good for three or four years, but every once in a while, somebody would kind of rear their head and say, get rid of these psychics.
[00:48:46]  So then you'd have to go and fight.
[00:48:48]  And when you had to go and fight, does that mean you had to go in remote view for them?
[00:48:52]  No, no.
[00:48:52]  We had Dr. Verona and Dale Graff would go to Congress.
[00:48:56]  Fight on your behalf.
[00:48:58]  Yeah, fight on our behalf.
[00:48:58]  No, in fact, I think there was an IG, Inspector General tried to close us down.
[00:49:05]  And, um, They wanted to come to the office, and Dr. Verona just told us all to stay.
[00:49:10]  We were protected.
[00:49:12]  The Congress knew, people knew that there were remote viewers, but we didn't have access to these people.
[00:49:22]  Right.
[00:49:23]  But I mean, also, it is kind of strange that people would want to shut that down.
[00:49:27]  Do you think there was some type of religious reason for that?
[00:49:32]  If it goes against a person's belief system, they're not going to.
[00:49:37]  They don't want it.
[00:49:38]  Yeah.
[00:49:38]  It just, it's irritating if it goes against your belief system.
[00:49:43]  So it was more of like conservative parties within the government that were like, this is against our religion and this is like work of the devil, so to speak.
[00:49:51]  Work of the devil.
[00:49:52]  Work of the devil.
[00:49:53]  And, but yet we had some people that were very conservative, but they knew the intelligence game.
[00:49:59]  And in intelligence, you collect information no matter how you get it.
[00:50:04]  Yeah.
[00:50:04]  So it was surprising that you would think certain people would be against it.
[00:50:09]  But they're like, oh no, it's information, bring it on, bring it on.
[00:50:13]  And then you had some people totally against it.
[00:50:15]  And then you had people that believed anything what we said.
[00:50:19]  So, like Ed May always said, it's always better to work with a skeptic because they're neutral.
[00:50:25]  That's true.
[00:50:26]  And it's so interesting to think that, like, the program was, you know, strong armed into like almost strong armed into shutting down, not for lack of results, but for faith reasons.
[00:50:42]  Yeah, ideology.
[00:50:43]  Yeah, ideology.
[00:50:44]  How interesting, right?
[00:50:45]  Because if you were to ask somebody, why do you think they shut the program down, like in 1995, you know, they'd gone publicly on the record and said, oh, it just didn't work.
[00:50:54]  And you're like, well, that's 20 years of, you know, something not working.
[00:50:58]  You'd think you'd shut it down prior to that.
[00:51:01]  Yeah.
[00:51:01]  Yeah.
[00:51:01]  See, what happened with a lot of people, Dr. Verona retired, so we lost a lot of support.
[00:51:07]  Yeah.
[00:51:08]  And then they, we were losing support, and we had a lot of support from Congress.
[00:51:16]  And, We weren't treated that well after Dr. Verona retired, so they wanted to transfer us to the CIA in 1995.
[00:51:25]  1995.
[00:51:27]  And the CIA said they were going to do a study, which we should have seen the writing on the wall.
[00:51:33]  They said they wanted to do a six month study to find out whether or not this was really helpful, if remote viewing was really helpful for operations.
[00:51:44]  Well, they hired an outside agency to do a review, but they did not give the outside agency clearances.
[00:51:53]  So these, now, in the past, if you ask somebody, To do something like this, you would give these outside, you would give them some type of clearance that they could go in and look at the classifiers.
[00:52:06]  Do their work, yeah.
[00:52:07]  They weren't given the clearances.
[00:52:12]  So what did they have?
[00:52:14]  So they came back six months later and said, oh no, it doesn't work.
[00:52:17]  It doesn't mean anything.
[00:52:18]  Right, because they have no access to any of the targets, nothing.
[00:52:21]  Anything.
[00:52:22]  So, I'm back at the Defense Intelligence Agency.
[00:52:28]  I'm working as a regular analyst.
[00:52:30]  I'm doing something on Russia or some defense industries.
[00:52:33]  I'm working.
[00:52:35]  I get a call from a young guy over at the Pentagon.
[00:52:38]  His name's, and he said, I'm ahead of special access programs, and I want to know why this program was shut down.
[00:52:47]  And he said, So, what happened was all of the history of Stargate was left.
[00:52:56]  It was taken from Fort Meade and it was brought to CIA because CIA was, Congress mandated that CIA take the program.
[00:53:04]  So they had all the information.
[00:53:07]  We were thinking that this study, these people on this study, was looking at the information.
[00:53:13]  So the guy said, he said, I want you to come.
[00:53:16]  He says, let's go look at this information.
[00:53:19]  I want to find out why this program was shut down.
[00:53:22]  So I said, okay, I'll take you over because I knew the boxes, I knew how they were.
[00:53:28]  I could get to the boxes and tell him what was important instead of him taking all day.
[00:53:35]  So we went over and the boxes were not opened at all, meaning that whoever did this study didn't even look at the unclassified information.
[00:53:47]  Wow.
[00:53:48]  And I looked and I said, these boxes were not open.
[00:53:51]  When we closed them up at Fort Meade, they were never opened.
[00:53:55]  They had seals on them.
[00:53:57]  Yeah, they were never opened.
[00:53:59]  Yeah.
[00:54:00]  So we opened one box, and there, right on top, was one of Joe McMonagall's sessions.
[00:54:06]  And we had feedback from the CIA that said that it was just, you know, this information helped us tremendously.
[00:54:13]  Which do you remember which session it was?
[00:54:15]  No, I don't, but I can remember.
[00:54:17]  And wow.
[00:54:18]  So I felt like we were done in.
[00:54:20]  And then, yeah, I mean, that was kind of you had the odds stacked against you.
[00:54:25]  And so then the CIA goes to, you know, 2017.
[00:54:29]  They had to sort of.
[00:54:32]  Disseminate this information and go public or declassify it all.
[00:54:36]  And what I remember Joe McMonagall telling me is like what they did is like they parsed through it, they shredded what was highly sensitive, and the rest of it they just kind of mixed up.
[00:54:46]  They shuffled the papers and threw it online.
[00:54:49]  So you have these millions of incoherent sort of papers that are lingering online.
[00:54:54]  And actually, some of the information that I did wasn't even part of the art, but my information was set aside because they would keep my information separate from the other remote viewers because.
[00:55:05]  My boss and even Ed May did not want the other viewers to see what I was doing because of the criticism.
[00:55:14]  Oh, I see.
[00:55:15]  Not because of the sensitive nature, just because of the way you were doing it.
[00:55:18]  Because I wasn't right all the time either.
[00:55:21]  So if I No one is.
[00:55:22]  I know.
[00:55:23]  But so if I was wrong on something, I'll see.
[00:55:25]  There she is.
[00:55:26]  It doesn't work.
[00:55:27]  Yeah, I see.
[00:55:28]  So it was a way to protect me.
[00:55:31]  They were keeping my information separate.
[00:55:33]  So a lot of my information wasn't even there.
[00:55:36]  So.
[00:55:38]  You're doing these targets now.
[00:55:40]  I remember speaking to Dr. Edwin May about how successful this was.
[00:55:45]  And one of the most convincing things that he's told me was 17 out of the 19 intelligence agencies that used Stargate came back, right?
[00:55:56]  19 intelligence agencies used it, 17 of them came back for new missions.
[00:56:00]  And out of the 20 years that Stargate was around, they did 505 missions.
[00:56:06]  And the joint task force, and this is like, I mean, you have CIA, FBI, all you name it, DIA, all these people, Customs, DEA.
[00:56:15]  That's right.
[00:56:16]  Army intelligence, Navy intelligence, Air Force intelligence, all of it.
[00:56:22]  And were you most of the time, did you know where the target, like, did you get feedback from the target?
[00:56:30]  Or would they just be like, here's a number, remote view, and they would take your remote view and you would never hear about it again?
[00:56:35]  Oh, no, we would get feedback whenever we could.
[00:56:38]  Okay.
[00:56:38]  That was one good thing about the analysts that we worked with, that I worked with.
[00:56:44]  I see.
[00:56:44]  If there was any feedback that could be given, I was given it immediately.
[00:56:49]  Was there any feedback?
[00:56:51]  Were you only given feedback when something was a hit?
[00:56:54]  Yeah, but there were a lot of things that they couldn't confirm, like the Libyan vessel.
[00:57:00]  Did you?
[00:57:02]  I'm not, I'm, I don't think I'm familiar with this.
[00:57:04]  Gaddafi, they, they, they, they were sure that it wasn't the ocean.
[00:57:09]  It was the, no, it was Gaddafi.
[00:57:11]  He had a chemical plant.
[00:57:13]  Okay.
[00:57:14]  And they couldn't, it looked like he, he had this chemical plant, but they couldn't tell, intelligence couldn't tell for sure.
[00:57:22]  And they didn't know how he was getting the chemicals to the plant.
[00:57:26]  So they, more or less, they kind of, there was a big question like this, is he doing, is he doing this weapons of mass destruction?
[00:57:35]  So I worked.
[00:57:36]  It and I got the name of a vessel.
[00:57:38]  I called it the potato, like you spell it like potato.
[00:57:42]  And I said, it rendezvous.
[00:57:44]  I said, this is how it rendezvous.
[00:57:49]  It goes from Turkey to Greece or whatever, and then it comes up here.
[00:57:53]  And I said, and I think that that's how the chemicals are coming in.
[00:57:57]  So we made a report, and it's sitting on the analyst's desk.
[00:58:03]  And Dr. Verona walked by the analyst and he saw my report and he said, Do you know anything about this?
[00:58:09]  And the And the analyst said, Well, it's not potato, it's potato.
[00:58:14]  It's a B, not a P.
[00:58:17]  And he goes, That's a Libyan vessel.
[00:58:20]  So, Dr. Verona took that report and he went to the general who was the head of DIA.
[00:58:28]  And then this guy called the general who was the head of operations and said, Hey, we think we found a way on how these chemicals are getting into how Gaddafi's received getting his chemicals.
[00:58:42]  So, they just decided to launch a submarine from Greece to follow to find out if what I said was correct.
[00:58:53]  So, My boss Fern and I were sitting at Fort Meade, and Dr. Verona calls up and he goes, Oh, we're going to launch a submarine based on my information.
[00:59:03]  Well, that really was pressure.
[00:59:05]  Whoa.
[00:59:06]  That really was pressure.
[00:59:08]  Oh, no.
[00:59:09]  Oh, my gosh.
[00:59:10]  But even, I mean, getting the name, like, I mean, Batato Potato, I couldn't help myself.
[00:59:15]  But I mean, that's a hit.

=== Submarine Launch Confirmed (15:57) ===

[00:59:18]  Yeah.
[00:59:18]  So, but, and you know, they did trace it and they followed it, and it came back highly probable or highly likely.
[00:59:28]  I see.
[00:59:29]  And in the intelligence community, that was good enough for me.
[00:59:33]  It wasn't like it was a.
[00:59:34]  It was like they didn't come back and say, oh, she's smoking.
[00:59:39]  No.
[00:59:39]  And that was good enough for me because that was very.
[00:59:42]  Were they able to confirm any of that by sending human intelligence on the ground?
[00:59:48]  No, because they were kind of watching the vessel.
[00:59:53]  And I think the submarine was the one that was kind of gathering intelligence.
[00:59:58]  Gathering intelligence.
[00:59:58]  The signals probably.
[01:00:00]  Yeah.
[01:00:00]  And they said, it's probably what I said was probably.
[01:00:03]  Very likely.
[01:00:03]  Whoa.
[01:00:04]  Highly likely, probable, highly something, but it was that was good enough.
[01:00:08]  That was good enough.
[01:00:09]  It may have not been that hit.
[01:00:11]  Oh my gosh.
[01:00:12]  It was close enough.
[01:00:13]  Hearing that, like, oh yeah, yeah, we think you're onto something.
[01:00:18]  We're going to send a submarine halfway across the world, you know, with people on that submarine in a highly stressful, dangerous situation because of something that you wrote down on a piece of paper.
[01:00:30]  Well, I know.
[01:00:31]  And the thing is, is that intelligence.
[01:00:34]  Get when you analyze information that comes from different sources.
[01:00:38]  Well, when we worked the hostages, they came to us because there was nothing else.
[01:00:45]  That's right.
[01:00:46]  You couldn't get signals or imagery into Beirut because it was too mountainous.
[01:00:52]  And Clinton started to take out the spies on the ground because it was very, very dangerous.
[01:00:57]  Right.
[01:00:57]  So, what are you left with?
[01:00:58]  Nothing.
[01:00:58]  So, the analysts come.
[01:01:00]  What can your people do?
[01:01:01]  And it was the same thing with this launching that submarine, it was based on sole source, me.
[01:01:08]  That's scary.
[01:01:10]  Yeah, because that's not something they usually do in the intelligence community.
[01:01:13]  Never, you know, they'll never take a sole source because A, I mean, people's lives are at risk.
[01:01:18]  B, it's a money issue.
[01:01:20]  You know, it's also a political issue.
[01:01:21]  Are you crossing a boundary somewhere?
[01:01:23]  These are all very sensitive things to be able to, you know, that you have to approve before deploying any of these assets.
[01:01:31]  And so, yeah, normally there wouldn't be a sole source of intelligence.
[01:01:37]  But there was.
[01:01:39]  Yeah, unless.
[01:01:40]  I don't know what hostages there were on this.
[01:01:42]  And I can remember.
[01:01:44]  When Dr. Verona went to, I guess, the head of the generals, the head of DIA in the operation, I guess he said, and this is the same person that said this, this, and they were like, oh, yeah, this is the same person that gave you this, this, and this.
[01:01:58]  I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, we'll send up this submarine.
[01:02:01]  And he was hyping you up.
[01:02:04]  Yeah, he was Team Angela.
[01:02:08]  Yeah.
[01:02:08]  Very cool.
[01:02:10]  Whoa.
[01:02:11]  Yeah, that must have been something.
[01:02:13]  Did, um, Did the other cohorts or the other people in the program catch wind of this happening?
[01:02:19]  On the feedback, on the feedback.
[01:02:21]  Yeah, because we would have meetings on the feedback.
[01:02:23]  Did they look at you differently after that happened?
[01:02:25]  No, the jaws would just drop, just drop.
[01:02:27]  I mean, they couldn't even look at me.
[01:02:29]  I bet.
[01:02:30]  They couldn't even look at me.
[01:02:31]  I mean, that's something else.
[01:02:33]  There's a reason you were there.
[01:02:34]  And I think maybe they were starting to understand that, you know, that you were handpicked for a reason, you know?
[01:02:42]  That's cool.
[01:02:43]  That's, I mean, that's incredible.
[01:02:46]  So after this, Were you ever given, because you dealt with a lot of hostages?
[01:02:53]  I assume you dealt with also a lot of probably like weapons of mass destruction, nuclear silos, like this type of thing.
[01:03:03]  Were you ever given targets that were a little strange during this time, or were they always pretty much along the same lines?
[01:03:12]  Pretty much along the same lines.
[01:03:13]  They had to be legally.
[01:03:15]  I mean, I think Dames had his pet project where he wanted people to remote view Martians or whatever, or Mars.
[01:03:22]  That was his private pet project.
[01:03:26]  But no, we had to stay within the congressional mandated.
[01:03:31]  Was, well, then, okay, but Joe McMonagall remote viewed Mars, and he was at Monroe when that happened.
[01:03:38]  And was it a DIA agent that came in and gave Bob Monroe the envelope?
[01:03:44]  I don't think so.
[01:03:44]  I think that's what Joe said.
[01:03:46]  DIA, or maybe he said DOD.
[01:03:48]  Probably DOD.
[01:03:49]  Okay.
[01:03:50]  And that would have been while he was at Monroe, so he wasn't at.
[01:03:54]  Joe had a reputation.
[01:03:55]  People knew him.
[01:03:57]  They probably.
[01:03:57]  I mean, that could have very well happened.
[01:04:00]  Yeah.
[01:04:00]  But we didn't get that.
[01:04:02]  Yeah, he got that, but I'm wondering who he might have gotten that from.
[01:04:05]  He knows people.
[01:04:06]  You know, probably somebody he did work whenever he was a remote viewer and they remembered his work and somebody remembered him.
[01:04:14]  Because actually, when the program ended in 1995, around 1999 and 2000, I got to, some people approached me to work for them privately.
[01:04:25]  Privately.
[01:04:27]  At DIA, and I did.
[01:04:28]  And I helped a guy find a, A spy.
[01:04:32]  We found a spy.
[01:04:33]  Really?
[01:04:33]  Where was the spy located?
[01:04:34]  Like a spy here on this side of the world?
[01:04:42]  There was the guy who approached me, his name was Scott Carmichael, and he wrote a book.
[01:04:49]  It's a Kindle book.
[01:04:49]  You either get it for free or it's 99 cents, and it's called Unconventional Method.
[01:04:55]  And he, there was somebody who approached me that he wanted me to do some work.
[01:05:02]  For him on the side, which I was doing on my own on private time.
[01:05:07]  And this, and he knew Scott Carmichael.
[01:05:11]  And Scott Carmichael had a case that he just couldn't crack.
[01:05:15]  And he said, Would you think she could help me out?
[01:05:20]  Oh, because, oh, no, because the man I was working for, this was, I was going home and working for this man and I was giving him information.
[01:05:29]  And whatever information I gave him, he called in Scott Carmichael and he said, Scott, I have some information I want you to take over to your colleague over at the State Department.
[01:05:41]  So Scott said, Okay.
[01:05:42]  He said, And where did you get this information?
[01:05:45]  And he said, From a psychic.
[01:05:47]  And Scott said, No way am I taking this information.
[01:05:50]  He goes, What?
[01:05:51]  He said, You can't.
[01:05:53]  I'm not taking this information from a psychic to the State Department.
[01:05:57]  And so Carl started telling him a little bit about me.
[01:06:00]  And Scott was like, Get out of here.
[01:06:03]  So then Scott kind of came back around and he said, I've got a case that I just can't seem to crack.
[01:06:09]  Last resort.
[01:06:10]  And he said, you think she could help me?
[01:06:12]  So, so I did.
[01:06:15]  And there was over in Australia, there was an imagery cell that the United, you know, we share our intelligence with Canada, England, and Australia.
[01:06:26]  Yeah, Five Eyes.
[01:06:26]  Yeah, Five Eyes.
[01:06:27]  You got Pine Gap down there.
[01:06:27]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:06:28]  And there was an Australian that was working at an imagery place with the Americans.
[01:06:36]  And he stole, I guess he stole imagery or he took a plane one weekend to Singapore and he went to the Singapore embassy and he wanted money to, he said, I'll sell you.
[01:06:48]  American secrets for money.
[01:06:50]  Whoa.
[01:06:50]  So the Singapore embassy called the United States.
[01:06:54]  Well, usually when people go in and they want to sell secrets, they don't use their real name.
[01:07:02]  And they could not.
[01:07:03]  And this guy used the name Baker.
[01:07:06]  He used the name Baker.
[01:07:08]  And so I guess the first session I had, I did pick up the name Baker.
[01:07:13]  So they knew I had, they knew that you were onto the target.
[01:07:19]  And so then they wanted to know, you know, Who was he?
[01:07:22]  And I said he was Australian.
[01:07:24]  I said he was on, there was a drug issue.
[01:07:27]  I described what he looked like.
[01:07:30]  And I gave other information, which I can't remember, but nothing really meshed.
[01:07:38]  Nothing.
[01:07:39]  And Scott was working with the FBI on this because whenever there's an arrest made in the intelligence community, the FBI makes the arrest and the FBI takes them to court.
[01:07:51]  But Scott wouldn't tell them that he was using a psychic.
[01:07:54]  Because it would have been thrown out of court.
[01:07:56]  Because, so he never told them that he was using a psychic.
[01:08:01]  And at first, I think Scott thought I was just banana, you know, he didn't understand the information and how I was piecing it together.
[01:08:09]  But I did say that the man would be caught and that he would be arrested on American soil.
[01:08:14]  So it was sort of a prediction going into the future.
[01:08:18]  And I said there was going to be a meeting on, I think, April the 30th.
[01:08:22]  There was supposed to be a meeting between this guy who wanted to sell secrets and somebody.
[01:08:28]  So Scott was giving all of this information to the FBI, and so that the FBI could lure the guy in to come into the United States.
[01:08:36]  Well, the case just wasn't, it just wasn't jiving for Scott.
[01:08:42]  And he thought I was, he just thought I was off.
[01:08:45]  Well, there was a female FBI agent and she asked Scott to work.
[01:08:51]  They needed to get into the message system.
[01:08:54]  It's a, it's a, it was called SAFE.
[01:08:57]  It was an intelligence message system that the FBI lady needed Scott to go into.
[01:09:04]  So Scott started and she was asking questions and Scott would go in and, and, You know, try to retrieve this information.
[01:09:12]  And as he was retrieving the information, he started to see things that I said.
[01:09:20]  I described the guy.
[01:09:21]  I said he was Australian.
[01:09:23]  Now, the FBI lady kept saying he was Canadian.
[01:09:27]  And Scott kept asking her, Are you sure he's not Australian?
[01:09:32]  She said, No, he's Canadian.
[01:09:34]  She was, and well, here Scott finally remembered that people can have dual citizenship.
[01:09:39]  And he said, Do you think he could?
[01:09:41]  Be Canadian and Australian.
[01:09:43]  She said, maybe.
[01:09:45]  So they got this guy's name.
[01:09:47]  His name was Pereire.
[01:09:49]  And they looked at him, and everything, he more or less matched what I said.
[01:09:55]  So he was eventually arrested.
[01:09:57]  Wow.
[01:09:58]  And then after he was put in jail, then Scott told the FBI that you were used.
[01:10:03]  That was used.
[01:10:05]  What was Scott's feeling about psychics after that?
[01:10:09]  Did you change?
[01:10:10]  Oh, yeah.
[01:10:11]  He wanted me to find some more.
[01:10:12]  I mean, he kept wanting me to work.
[01:10:14]  And he went to New Jersey.
[01:10:16]  He found a psychic.
[01:10:17]  I mean, he was really into it.
[01:10:19]  Yeah.
[01:10:19]  I mean, that's, it is interesting when you get into that realm because, especially when there's no other open door to go through and you're banging your head against the wall and you need to solve a case or you need to figure out, you know, where these hostages are, where this vehicle is, there's nothing else that can help you.
[01:10:37]  I mean, you're the, you know, the intelligence agencies are the most powerful in the world.
[01:10:43]  They have access to everything.
[01:10:45]  So for them to go, my pockets are empty.
[01:10:48]  What do you got?
[01:10:49]  And then you come back with something.
[01:10:52]  I mean, that is so valuable to them.
[01:10:54]  You know, I would have a hard time believing they're not doing this stuff as we speak, by the way.
[01:10:59]  Oh, I'm sure.
[01:11:01]  I'm sure.
[01:11:02]  In some capacity.
[01:11:04]  Yeah.
[01:11:04]  So I, yeah.
[01:11:05]  So Scott, yeah.
[01:11:06]  In fact, I hear from Scott now.
[01:11:07]  In fact, Scott had, he had quite a good reputation.
[01:11:10]  He found Anna Montez.
[01:11:11]  She was the Cuban spy.
[01:11:13]  Oh, yeah.
[01:11:13]  Yeah.
[01:11:14]  And he identified another spy.
[01:11:15]  So it was, it was, he's funny.
[01:11:18]  Is he with the DIA or is he?
[01:11:20]  He's contracting.
[01:11:22]  He's retired now.
[01:11:22]  Yeah.
[01:11:23]  Okay.
[01:11:23]  But he was contracting back then or was he?
[01:11:25]  No, he was a DIA employee.
[01:11:27]  That was during, while he was with the DIA.
[01:11:29]  This was 1999, 2000.
[01:11:31]  He was a, He was the investigator.
[01:11:35]  He would investigate crimes.
[01:11:36]  His job was to find spies.
[01:11:38]  Whoa, cool job.
[01:11:39]  Yeah, he had that one case.
[01:11:41]  And so he went to this man I was helping, Carl, and he said, You think she could help me with this?
[01:11:47]  And I didn't even see, I never met Scott Carmichael, never met him.
[01:11:53]  And he worked in a different location than I worked at the headquarters for Defense Intelligence Agency.
[01:12:00]  He was someplace else.
[01:12:02]  Well, eventually they moved his office.
[01:12:04]  To the headquarters.
[01:12:06]  So, five or six years later, I get a call and he said, My name's Scott Carmichael and you helped me with this case.
[01:12:13]  Can you come down, meet me in the cafeteria?
[01:12:15]  I'll buy you a cup of coffee.
[01:12:17]  And that's how I met him.
[01:12:17]  And he said, Do you remember this case?
[01:12:20]  And I said, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, yeah, yeah.
[01:12:23]  And I said, Carl, I said, I think I got it through Carl.
[01:12:26]  He said, Well, we arrested the man because that's how I got my feedback.
[01:12:30]  That's cool.
[01:12:31]  Yeah, it's a cool feeling.
[01:12:33]  Even knowing that you might have had just a hand and taken down someone like that is pretty impressive.
[01:12:40]  What was there ever a moment where you were like, Holy crap!
[01:12:46]  By seeing whatever it is you did, you were like, Oh my God, I can't believe that.
[01:12:51]  Like that, Jonathan Livingston, like that would blow my mind if I were to, even if I'm trying to put myself in your position, but even if I knew I had ability and I could do this, like something so specific would just.
[01:13:05]  That's what the channeling is.
[01:13:07]  It's, yeah, because it seems way more.
[01:13:11]  Dependable.
[01:13:13]  Well, it's a location.
[01:13:15]  If you're looking for somebody, you can't say, well, there's a tree and water and a building.
[01:13:19]  A tree and a water and a building is everywhere.
[01:13:21]  So you have to be specific.
[01:13:24]  You have to be specific.
[01:13:25]  When you're channeling, what are you channeling actually?
[01:13:28]  Are you going into the person?
[01:13:31]  Are you inviting the person in there?
[01:13:32]  Is it just an energy?
[01:13:33]  Like, what is that like?
[01:13:35]  It's sort of like I work with spiritual guides and they kind of help give me the information.
[01:13:40]  I see.
[01:13:40]  Some girl said she does the same thing and she says, I feel like I'm cheating.
[01:13:44]  She will.
[01:13:45]  I said, no, use the information.
[01:13:49]  So you're actually using intelligence.
[01:13:51]  You've got your own set of intel coming in.
[01:13:54]  Yeah.
[01:13:54]  They think it's all channeling.
[01:13:55]  You're like, no, no, I got a group of spies in the ether that are gathering information.
[01:14:02]  Wow.
[01:14:02]  That's cool.
[01:14:03]  Well, I guess that Wyoming, the customs man, I think it shocked everybody.
[01:14:11]  And I think that that was, you can't, a lot of people question what I did on the hostages because Higgins did die.
[01:14:19]  And I said that I really did not know he was dead.
[01:14:25]  But the analysts came back to me and they told me, they said, Angela, he probably died by accident because.
[01:14:33]  The same thing happened to a William Buckley.
[01:14:36]  They were high priority hostages, and the terrorists knew that, so they really didn't want them dead.
[01:14:43]  So Higgins probably died by accident, but they didn't want the United States to know.
[01:14:49]  So they put him on ice and they kept moving him.
[01:14:53]  So I would locate Higgins where he was, and they said, You were right, but he was dead and they were traveling on water.
[01:15:01]  So a lot of people felt like I should know that he's dead, but you know, hey, What does it mean?
[01:15:09]  Sometimes you can't tell the difference between, you know, it's just energy or whatever.

=== Tracking Charles Jordan (07:30) ===

[01:15:16]  Yeah.
[01:15:16]  And it's never, I mean, one thing about remote viewing and a lot of this psychic stuff as well is that it's never 100%.
[01:15:22]  And if it is, like, I mean, you don't know.
[01:15:24]  Like, that's, it's, you know, it's when you hit, like Joe McMonagall, if you look at a lot of his sessions, is like, you know, he wasn't always hitting, but when he was hitting, the accuracy was very high.
[01:15:37]  Yeah.
[01:15:38]  That's what Ed said.
[01:15:39]  He said, Joe is probably more dependable than me in remote viewing.
[01:15:44]  But when I hit, I hit.
[01:15:46]  Yeah.
[01:15:47]  Yeah.
[01:15:47]  He said that it's, well, yeah.
[01:15:49]  And that's what happened with the customs case.
[01:15:52]  There was a case, there was a man by the name of Charles Jordan, and he was on the 10 Most Wanted list.
[01:16:00]  And there was a TV program called The 10 Most Wanted.
[01:16:04]  Well, Charles Jordan was a custom agent that went rogue.
[01:16:07]  The money, and then he, instead of giving it to customs, he fleed and took the money, and it was over a million bucks, I think, over a million dollars.
[01:16:16]  So, customs called Dr. Verona and said, Do you think your people could help us out?
[01:16:21]  So, Dr. Verona said, Well, I'll see, we'll see.
[01:16:24]  So, he came down, and so I go into session, and I went with Fern, my boss, and then we would always take Jeannie, the secretary, with us because she would take the notes.
[01:16:35]  So, Fern said, He goes, Angela, where is Charles Jordan?
[01:16:43]  So I said he was in Lowell, L O W E L L, Wyoming.
[01:16:48]  And Fern said, Well, are you sure it's not Massachusetts?
[01:16:52]  He said, Because I was born in Law, Massachusetts.
[01:16:55]  I don't think there's a Law, Wyoming.
[01:16:58]  And I said, No, it's Wyoming because I was getting the impression of cowboys and Indians.
[01:17:04]  And I said, No, it's not.
[01:17:05]  I'm not getting, you know, water or the Eastern.
[01:17:09]  I said, No, this is Wyoming.
[01:17:11]  So Fern didn't know what to do.
[01:17:14]  And he said, I don't know.
[01:17:15]  So, and then I started to get this image of drug trafficking.
[01:17:21]  Of drugs.
[01:17:22]  And then all of a sudden I'm in Florida.
[01:17:25]  I'm in the Caribbean and I'm feeling hot.
[01:17:27]  And I thought, I've got to get out of here because I'm getting mixed information.
[01:17:34]  And I said, I'm going to go with Lowell, Wyoming.
[01:17:38]  So Fern said, okay.
[01:17:39]  So we were in the back, we were in a large room and there was a book there that had pages of maps.
[01:17:46]  So he went to Wyoming and he said, well, there's a level, Wyoming.
[01:17:51]  And I said, close enough.
[01:17:52]  That's it.
[01:17:53]  I said, that's it.
[01:17:55]  So I said, close enough.
[01:17:59]  That's it.
[01:18:00]  So, you know, of course, he's perplexed.
[01:18:03]  And how do you go to somebody and just give them two words, you know, Wyoming?
[01:18:08]  But I guess Dr. Verona did go to Customs and say that, I don't know how he said it.
[01:18:13]  He said, well, someone that's pretty good at, you know, that finds this in Wyoming.
[01:18:17]  And Customs said, oh, he would never be in Wyoming.
[01:18:21]  He would be in the Caribbean.
[01:18:22]  He'd be.
[01:18:23]  You know, he's enjoying the good life.
[01:18:25]  And everybody else had him in the Caribbean and Florida.
[01:18:30]  So, and that's all I could get on it.
[01:18:33]  But at some level, that's all I could do.
[01:18:36]  There was nothing more I could do.
[01:18:38]  So I think Dale Graff came down.
[01:18:41]  It must have been about a month later or six weeks later.
[01:18:46]  Dale came back, came from headquarters down to Fort Meade, and he asked me if I would work the session again.
[01:18:53]  And because he made the special trip, I said, okay, I'll work.
[01:18:57]  The session.
[01:18:58]  So I worked the session and I said that Jordan was moving west of Wyoming.
[01:19:03]  I said he was staying in a hotel.
[01:19:05]  I don't know if I named it, I described the hotel, I may have named it, and I drew a picture of an Indian burial ground.
[01:19:13]  So they took that information that same day or the next within less than 24 hours.
[01:19:18]  They took it to customs and Dr. Verona said, Well, we think he's moving west of Wyoming.
[01:19:25]  And the customs official said, As we are speaking, Charles Jordan is being apprehended 100 miles west of Lovell, Wyoming.
[01:19:35]  So everybody went crazy on that one because Dale Graff was like, no way would he be in Wyoming.
[01:19:45]  He really, Dale just.
[01:19:48]  I mean, you could have thrown a dart at a map.
[01:19:50]  Yeah.
[01:19:50]  That's incredibly specific.
[01:19:53]  Yeah.
[01:19:53]  But then Dale was happy that I.
[01:19:57]  Then Dale got happy because I was right.
[01:19:58]  But he thought, Dale was like, ugh.
[01:20:00]  I mean, he just, I don't think Dale believed it.
[01:20:02]  But anyway, we did get it.
[01:20:05]  And I said, I wanted the reward money.
[01:20:07]  And they said, You're just doing your job.
[01:20:10]  So we asked, we said, they said that there was a guard, a security guard at Yellowstone National Park that saw him and reported it.
[01:20:20]  So we figured he probably maybe saw the picture on the 10 Most Wanted or the TV program.
[01:20:26]  So we didn't think anything of it.
[01:20:28]  But we were happy that we could say that we, we were getting, you know, we did it.
[01:20:32]  We did it.
[01:20:33]  You did.
[01:20:33]  The unit did it.
[01:20:34]  So, this was in 1988 or 1989.
[01:20:40]  Well, they closed the program in 1995.
[01:20:44]  And oh, no, no, it was because this was not a classified case.
[01:20:48]  It was an open, it was an unclassified case.
[01:20:52]  So, pretty soon the BBC got a hold of the case and they wanted to do a reenactment for the Discovery Channel.
[01:21:00]  So, they did in June 1995.
[01:21:03]  They did do a reenactment.
[01:21:06]  Of the case, and they came to the United States to do the reenactment.
[01:21:12]  The BBC called the Defense Intelligence Agency up to ask that they talk to me.
[01:21:16]  They wanted to talk to me, and my management was so upset with me, but I didn't know they were going to do that.
[01:21:23]  Of course, they weren't going to let me speak with them, but my management was getting angry with me, and I'm like, You don't even know, it's not me, you don't even know the backstory.
[01:21:33]  So On set, Dale Graff was there, and Dale said something like, he said, Boy, you know, it's a shame we couldn't get any credit on this finding Charles Jordan.
[01:21:49]  And the customs man said, Are you kidding?
[01:21:52]  It was because of me that they found him.
[01:21:54]  They said they never would have thought he would have been in Wyoming.
[01:21:59]  But apparently, about three or four weeks, or two or three weeks after I said he was in Wyoming, Charles sent Charles Jordan sent a picture of himself to his mother.
[01:22:11]  And when she showed it to the FBI, they saw, I think it was a truck with Wyoming license plates.
[01:22:19]  And Joe McMonagall told me, he said they were just sending pictures of him from up to that Western Wyoming.
[01:22:27]  And that's how they got him.
[01:22:29]  And they would have never done that.
[01:22:31]  They would have never made that connection.
[01:22:34]  No, because even when I first said Wyoming, Fern, my boss Fern and Dr. Verona was trying to tell customs it's an isolated area.

=== Psychic Fatigue Sets In (06:28) ===

[01:22:46]  It's not heavily populated.
[01:22:48]  Just send an FBI agent up there.
[01:22:50]  Seriously.
[01:22:50]  Yeah.
[01:22:51]  What's that cost?
[01:22:52]  Nothing.
[01:22:52]  Just start snooping around.
[01:22:54]  Yeah.
[01:22:54]  Just ask some locals.
[01:22:56]  Wow.
[01:22:57]  Yeah.
[01:22:58]  That's, I mean, when I heard that, I remember reading that one from Lowell to Lovell, and I was like, no way.
[01:23:05]  You know, again, one letter off, you know, but datto, potato.
[01:23:09]  It's phonetic.
[01:23:10]  I always say it's not the spelling, it's just phonetic.
[01:23:13]  It's phonetic.
[01:23:15]  Are you getting like, it's hard to put words on an impression, on a psychic impression, because a lot of it is perception of something.
[01:23:23]  It's not exactly the thing.
[01:23:24]  Like, so essentially, like when, when, Even when I was starting to learn remote viewing, they were like, I'm like, oh, you're because remote viewing is a bit of a, it's not the correct name for what you're doing because you're not viewing something.
[01:23:39]  You're by putting that out there, people think, oh, you're going into the eyes of the person.
[01:23:44]  It's not that.
[01:23:44]  It's you're being given different sensory information.
[01:23:50]  And it is like seeing something when you picture something in your mind, but it's also very different.
[01:23:56]  So when you're getting level or low, is that like in your mind?
[01:24:01]  Is that an, Auditory sound, or is it like a, or is it just a feeling, or is it you're just letting your hands do the work?
[01:24:08]  I just let my hands do the work and it comes out, and that's what I see.
[01:24:11]  And that's always how it's been.
[01:24:12]  That's what's worked.
[01:24:14]  Yes.
[01:24:15]  But I do know what you mean when remote viewing, people think that the third eye, people think that you see it.
[01:24:21]  Yeah, that you're there or something.
[01:24:23]  And, and it's not.
[01:24:25]  When you, when I do regular remote viewing sites, it's you get feelings, you know, like you can get cold, you get a feeling, and you're relying on other.
[01:24:34]  Other, you're doing even when I do a psychic reading, it's an energy comes in and you're just picking out this information to report it.
[01:24:44]  And sometimes the third eye will open and it helps you out, but a lot of times, more a lot of times, the third eye doesn't help me out at all.
[01:24:52]  But when I talk to people, like when I talk to analysts or other people, they always, oh, you can, you know, you see this third eye, but it's not always open.
[01:25:03]  Yeah, it's strange how it all works, and we're still trying to figure that out.
[01:25:08]  You know, back to Edwin May doing, Dr. May doing these, you know, this study on psychic ability.
[01:25:17]  You know, I had asked him too, I was like, is it a frequency?
[01:25:20]  And he's like, no, we tested that too.
[01:25:21]  He's like, we put them in a submarine and, you know, had them remote view.
[01:25:26]  And arguably they had better sessions, you know, down where there was no frequency because they were more calm, I guess, you know, and less interference.
[01:25:35]  So, yeah, we're still mystified on what exactly it is.
[01:25:39]  But it's interesting that you say that you're having guides.
[01:25:43]  Sort of help you with this information.
[01:25:45]  I think that's like a really interesting sort of take on this.
[01:25:49]  Have you, do you interact regularly with these guides, like day to day type deal?
[01:25:55]  Not every day, but they're there.
[01:25:57]  They're my, I guess they're my guardian aid helpers.
[01:26:00]  We all have helpers.
[01:26:01]  Yeah.
[01:26:01]  You're just sort of more aware of that relationship.
[01:26:05]  Yes.
[01:26:05]  That's really interesting.
[01:26:07]  And that's, I mean, you know, for me, it's interesting because there's also data here.
[01:26:11]  There's also your sessions that are incredibly, you know, accurate.
[01:26:17]  So that, you know, it makes me, it definitely makes me wonder.
[01:26:19]  It makes me look at this in a whole new light, so to speak.
[01:26:24]  Okay.
[01:26:26]  So we're wrapping up your time here at Stargate.
[01:26:30]  Now, how many sessions roughly would you say you were doing monthly?
[01:26:36]  How many would sometimes would one, not sessions, but how many targets would you do monthly?
[01:26:42]  Was it like one and every day for eight hours you're doing the same target?
[01:26:45]  No, no.
[01:26:46]  We could only work maybe one hour a day.
[01:26:49]  If I worked operationally, I was probably working one hour a day.
[01:26:53]  Because that, because, It would, you'd be spent.
[01:26:55]  Oh, yeah, yeah, you can't.
[01:26:57]  In fact, after the level Wyoming, I couldn't, I just couldn't work for a while.
[01:27:02]  I said, I can't work anymore.
[01:27:04]  I just something like in my brain went, it must have blew a fuse or something because I just couldn't work.
[01:27:10]  I said, I can't do anything.
[01:27:14]  So my boss said, Well, we'll give you, you know, three or four days off.
[01:27:17]  I mean, I still have to go to work.
[01:27:19]  And, and I said, No, I think it's going to take longer than three or four days.
[01:27:23]  And it took me a while before I could go back and, and, um, Work and we were under human use, so they couldn't force me.
[01:27:32]  That's right.
[01:27:33]  We were under human use, so they couldn't force me to work.
[01:27:36]  Yeah.
[01:27:36]  I've also felt that sort of quote unquote psychic fatigue by doing the remote viewing sessions.
[01:27:43]  It's exhausting.
[01:27:43]  Yeah.
[01:27:44]  I would invite anyone if you're interested in doing remote viewings.
[01:27:48]  We, by the way, run a weekly remote viewing.
[01:27:51]  We have a target, a weekly target that we do in our Discord for our interns, we call them, but the members here on the channel.
[01:27:58]  And they're able to do that with one of the operatives that we have there.
[01:28:01]  We call him.
[01:28:02]  And he runs this weekly thing.
[01:28:04]  And I've done a lot of these sessions.
[01:28:06]  And I'll tell you, after you do two sessions, you're just like, I just want to relax now.
[01:28:13]  Like, it's, there's something about it that I don't even know what it is.
[01:28:16]  Cause it's not, it's not like, it's not like you're fatigued.
[01:28:20]  Like, it's kind of like after you're done reading a book, you know, like after you've read a few chapters, like, I just need to put this away.
[01:28:27]  I can't read anymore.
[01:28:28]  And that's kind of what that's like too.
[01:28:30]  Yeah.
[01:28:30]  Oh, yeah.
[01:28:30]  I had a, Then, even when I teach remote viewing classes, I, you know, I'll do maybe one or two targets a night.
[01:28:37]  And, but I can't, and, but I will give them during the week, I'll give them something to do.
[01:28:43]  But, and I keep telling them, be careful.
[01:28:45]  You don't want to go into burnout.
[01:28:46]  And I've been in burnout.
[01:28:48]  I've been in burnout.
[01:28:49]  Were you just done too many targets, too demanding?
[01:28:51]  Just too.
[01:28:52]  It was the hostages, I was overloaded on that emotionally.
[01:28:56]  Every way, every, every way.
[01:28:58]  Emotionally, remote viewing wise.
[01:29:00]  Were you ever, cause like, you know, I've, I've read, Uh, you know, Joe's books, and I've read, I've even read, uh, you know, Ed Dame's books, and there was, it seemed to be a heaviness about a lot of these, uh, targets.

=== Avoiding Burnout (06:29) ===

[01:29:15]  Um, did that ever, did that ever affect you?
[01:29:18]  Oh, sure, sure.
[01:29:19]  Oh, sure.
[01:29:20]  Like the conditions of the hostages and that type of thing.
[01:29:22]  Oh, sure, absolutely.
[01:29:24]  Yeah.
[01:29:24]  The heaviness was depressing.
[01:29:26]  Yeah.
[01:29:27]  And, and that's because you were perceiving their fear or their hopelessness.
[01:29:32]  It's just a depressing, it's just, just depressing.
[01:29:35]  Yeah, and you got to live in that.
[01:29:36]  You have to work through it.
[01:29:38]  Yeah, you have to work through it.
[01:29:39]  That must be really tough to want to go Tough.
[01:29:43]  It was tough to want to go into work and do that.
[01:29:46]  I just liked it when I was right.
[01:29:48]  I just liked the feedback, you know, like, hey, we thought, you know.
[01:29:51]  Yeah, you were helping, you were helping people, which, you know, made it all worthwhile, I'm sure.
[01:29:55]  But in the interim, that's got to be tough to even, you know, you're watching a movie out there, you watch something like, you know, some sad movie, it affects you.
[01:30:05]  You know, it's a weight.
[01:30:07]  You're, we're all empathetic to a certain degree, most of us.
[01:30:10]  And, and we, you know, put ourselves in other people's positions.
[01:30:14]  But Is that those feelings that you're perceiving?
[01:30:20]  Are you generating the same emotion that the person is going through?
[01:30:24]  Is that how you're perceiving that?
[01:30:26]  Sometimes, sometimes not.
[01:30:28]  Okay.
[01:30:29]  Wow.
[01:30:29]  Sometimes, sometimes not.
[01:30:31]  Wow.
[01:30:33]  Yeah, it's got to take a toll.
[01:30:34]  Was everybody like that or were some people a little bit more detached and they were able to just.
[01:30:40]  I don't know because I didn't talk to them and they didn't talk to me.
[01:30:43]  Yeah.
[01:30:45]  Yeah, compartmentalized.
[01:30:49]  Wow.
[01:30:50]  This is all very fascinating to me, Angela.
[01:30:52]  I got to say, I'm very, you know, because people say anything they want to me, you know, as a magician, right?
[01:31:00]  I'm trained to be skeptical about all this stuff, right?
[01:31:05]  Because magicians obviously were aware of how things work in the performance aspect.
[01:31:11]  And I know that I'm confident enough to know that, like, the amount of practice that I've had, I can, if I wanted to, in which I don't, But I could convince someone that I have psychic ability based on just the skill that I have.
[01:31:25]  And so, as a magician, we have to be responsible.
[01:31:28]  There's a responsibility for that type of power, if you will, that we have to let the audience know that this is a performance, it's fiction, we're having fun, and we're kind of doing it for entertainment.
[01:31:40]  But in that, we start understanding methods and we start understanding how things work.
[01:31:45]  And naturally, that makes us a little more skeptical than everyone else.
[01:31:51]  But it wasn't until I tried it myself.
[01:31:54]  That I fully understood that, wait a second, there's something here.
[01:31:58]  I might not be really good at this, but I had results that showed me I don't have to be amazing at it to understand there's something here.
[01:32:09]  And if anyone out there has a little bit more ability than I do, I mean, that's going to be very useful to someone.
[01:32:16]  That was very easy for me to understand.
[01:32:18]  So I'd urge anyone listening, if there is a seed of doubt in your mind about, You know, the testimony that Angela has given here, or any of the other remote viewing stuff that I've mentioned in the past, if there's any doubt, try for yourself.
[01:32:34]  You know, have some fun with it, set up a target.
[01:32:36]  Is that something you would recommend?
[01:32:38]  Oh, sure.
[01:32:39]  And that it's a yes, it doesn't go against religion, it doesn't go against belief system.
[01:32:45]  If you're curious and you want to try it, you can.
[01:32:48]  It's a technique, absolutely.
[01:32:50]  I would recommend that.
[01:32:51]  Are you do you have synesthesia?
[01:32:54]  Yes, you do.
[01:32:56]  Oh, yeah.
[01:32:56]  Because that was, this is interesting because that was one of the things they found out later on that the psychics that they had worked with at Stargate were mostly synesthetes.
[01:33:06]  They all had some form of synesthesia, which is like perceiving color as a sound or, you know, your senses sort of get mixed up in that way.
[01:33:15]  Different amalgamation of all that.
[01:33:17]  But what is your synesthesia like?
[01:33:20]  Colors, colors.
[01:33:22]  I see colors around people.
[01:33:24]  You see colors around people.
[01:33:25]  Aura, auras.
[01:33:27]  Really?
[01:33:27]  Really?
[01:33:28]  Do you see mine?
[01:33:33]  I think.
[01:33:35]  What color do you like better, blue or green?
[01:33:37]  They kind of mean the same thing.
[01:33:38]  Oh, I haven't thought of it.
[01:33:40]  I guess blue.
[01:33:40]  Okay.
[01:33:41]  Yeah.
[01:33:41]  A balance.
[01:33:43]  Yeah.
[01:33:44]  Blue and green mean pretty much the same, but it's balance.
[01:33:48]  You're a good mediator.
[01:33:51]  You're probably a good researcher.
[01:33:53]  You can dissect information.
[01:33:55]  You can deal with a lot of information.
[01:33:59]  At one time and just break it down.
[01:34:01]  You can deal with a lot of information and break it down into simple, simplicity.
[01:34:08]  You're probably a good writer.
[01:34:10]  Are you a good writer?
[01:34:11]  I am.
[01:34:11]  Yeah.
[01:34:11]  I like to think so.
[01:34:13]  Yeah, good writer.
[01:34:14]  People that have blue, they look at the world like they look at humanity.
[01:34:20]  They look at the whole picture more so than the green person may.
[01:34:28]  So the blue people sort of get the whole picture.
[01:34:30]  They see the whole picture.
[01:34:33]  They can solve problems.
[01:34:36]  They can solve big problems because they get the big picture.
[01:34:41]  But yeah, blue.
[01:34:42]  And do you exercise?
[01:34:43]  People like to exercise.
[01:34:44]  Yeah.
[01:34:45]  I like to exercise.
[01:34:46]  You like to feel the wind.
[01:34:47]  Yeah.
[01:34:51]  You're blue.
[01:34:51]  Yeah.
[01:34:51]  I'm sorry.
[01:34:52]  Blue and green, I get a little bit confused on.
[01:34:54]  Yeah.
[01:34:55]  Very cool.
[01:34:55]  Wow.
[01:34:56]  And so that's a way, you know, that's one of the things that Dr. May found.
[01:35:04]  Was an indicator of high sort of psychic ability.
[01:35:09]  One of many indicators, but one that really stood out was having synesthesia, being able to perceive these different senses in this way.
[01:35:17]  Like almost like the brain of people who have synesthesia is like wired a little differently to absorb information.
[01:35:27]  I guess I'm just kind of curious in what that might be like, but it's probably hard to put into words, I'm sure.
[01:35:36]  Well, sometimes when you can identify, when you see a color around a person, that gives me a lot of information and they become very predictable to me.

=== The UFO Apartment (09:47) ===

[01:35:44]  Oh, yeah.
[01:35:45]  They become very predictable and how you would handle, how you would treat a person with a different color.
[01:35:54]  It just gives me information.
[01:35:55]  Yeah, it's like some type of character type.
[01:36:01]  Yeah.
[01:36:01]  Like you're already given some information.
[01:36:03]  So you're like, okay, you know, it's probably going to be an uphill battle with this person.
[01:36:07]  And that type of deal.
[01:36:08]  If I want, yeah, you know.
[01:36:10]  Okay.
[01:36:12]  All right.
[01:36:13]  Now I'd like to get into some of the more fringe stuff.
[01:36:17]  Okay.
[01:36:17]  This is, you know, I've been waiting for this.
[01:36:20]  You know, obviously I'm into the extraterrestrial stuff, into UFOs.
[01:36:26]  Were you ever.
[01:36:28]  Were you ever given a target that had to do with any of that?
[01:36:32]  Yeah, I think Ed May with his Mars targets.
[01:36:35]  Yeah, okay.
[01:36:35]  But I always knew they were his Mars targets because he would lead you.
[01:36:40]  But no, but I've had two UFO sightings and that I had.
[01:36:47]  And I've also had, you know, a few minutes with an ET.
[01:36:53]  So I've seen.
[01:36:56]  Can you talk us through?
[01:36:56]  Let's start with the sightings.
[01:36:59]  Well, I was about 12 or 13 years old.
[01:37:01]  I was in Pennsylvania, and there were a group of us.
[01:37:04]  We were young kids, and we just got done playing baseball.
[01:37:08]  And we were, it was that time between dawn, between dusk, you know, right whenever it would get dark.
[01:37:14]  So we had to quit playing.
[01:37:15]  And we were walking across the baseball field, and you heard this swoosh, And the Shoe FA just went right over our heads.
[01:37:23]  And we just, it was green, it was round, and we just, we were, we screamed.
[01:37:28]  Grownups came out and saw it.
[01:37:30]  So that was a UFO sighting.
[01:37:32]  How big was this?
[01:37:34]  It was big.
[01:37:34]  And what was it made of?
[01:37:36]  Like, was it a light?
[01:37:37]  It was light.
[01:37:38]  It was just green.
[01:37:39]  It was just light.
[01:37:40]  And how low do you think it was?
[01:37:42]  It was over our heads.
[01:37:43]  Just over your heads.
[01:37:44]  And the size of what?
[01:37:45]  What would you compare it to?
[01:37:47]  Oh, it was big.
[01:37:48]  Like big like a house or big like a car?
[01:37:50]  Big like a car.
[01:37:51]  Okay.
[01:37:51]  It was big.
[01:37:53]  And it was just glowing green.
[01:37:54]  Like a sphere?
[01:37:56]  Like a sphere.
[01:37:57]  Whoa.
[01:37:58]  So that was the first one.
[01:38:00]  Then in 2010, when I retired from the government, not long after that, I saw another UFO and it was big too.
[01:38:11]  I felt like it was just hovering and it was white and it was a sphere too.
[01:38:17]  But then there was one time I felt like I went through a portal and I saw, I think it was one of the ones, the grays.
[01:38:26]  Are they the ones with the black eyes?
[01:38:28]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:38:29]  White.
[01:38:30]  And I saw that in this for a split second, I felt like I knew from before.
[01:38:37]  Because when I looked at him and I felt it was male energy, I said, Hey, how are you doing?
[01:38:43]  Long time no see.
[01:38:45]  And so I felt like we knew each other.
[01:38:48]  And then he took this, he took this, I think he had like a stick, I guess a probe, and he was probing me.
[01:38:56]  And then whenever he was done, I took the probe and then I did it to him and then he left.
[01:39:01]  It was like very playful.
[01:39:03]  How old were you in that?
[01:39:04]  Well, I retired.
[01:39:05]  So, how old was I?
[01:39:06]  Oh, you were an adult?
[01:39:07]  Yeah, I was in my 50s.
[01:39:09]  Wow.
[01:39:10]  Yeah, because I retired.
[01:39:11]  Where did this happen?
[01:39:12]  Where I live in Maryland.
[01:39:15]  It was in your home?
[01:39:16]  In my home.
[01:39:17]  Were you in like a hypnopompic or hypnagogic state?
[01:39:20]  Was this prior to sleep or after waking up?
[01:39:23]  What was the context of where you were and what you were doing?
[01:39:27]  I probably was outside, you know, walking or probably doing something outside.
[01:39:33]  And I just went through a portal and it was like, oh, hey, how are you doing?
[01:39:37]  How strange.
[01:39:39]  And when that ended, were you just kind of bewildered or were you in a different location?
[01:39:45]  No, I was like, hey, come back.
[01:39:47]  I wasn't ready for him to leave.
[01:39:50]  How long do you think that encounter lasted?
[01:39:52]  Oh, not long.
[01:39:53]  Not long.
[01:39:53]  Not long.
[01:39:54]  It wasn't long.
[01:39:55]  30 seconds or a couple of minutes?
[01:39:56]  A couple of minutes.
[01:39:57]  Whoa.
[01:40:00]  Less than 10 minutes, but it wasn't a couple of seconds.
[01:40:04]  Do you feel like you've had like interactions that you can't remember with these?
[01:40:11]  Cause like you said, there was like a familiarity there, like when you saw it.
[01:40:15]  Oh, I think we've been with them before.
[01:40:17]  I mean, I think they've, I believe in reincarnation.
[01:40:19]  I believe that we've been here before and we've been with them before.
[01:40:23]  So that all makes, that's what I thought of.
[01:40:26]  That was a feeling you got.
[01:40:27]  Yeah.
[01:40:28]  And then I lived in my apartment, my UFO apartment.
[01:40:32]  Did I ever tell you about that?
[01:40:33]  No.
[01:40:34]  Your UFO apartment.
[01:40:35]  Yeah.
[01:40:36]  Yeah.
[01:40:36]  I was living in Arlington, Virginia, but whenever I took the psychic program, I wanted to move closer to the city because it kept me closer to Fort Meade.
[01:40:49]  And I was living with my sister.
[01:40:51]  So I had a friend at the time.
[01:40:53]  Her name was Ruth.
[01:40:54]  And Ruth was older than me, she was in her 60s.
[01:40:57]  And I said, Ruth, I need to move into the city.
[01:41:01]  I don't want to go to Maryland from Virginia.
[01:41:03]  I'll never make it on time.
[01:41:05]  So we were walking around, and she said, See that apartment building?
[01:41:08]  I used to live there, and it's really nice.
[01:41:11]  So we went up and we rang the door and we talked to the manager and we went and looked at an apartment.
[01:41:17]  And so we took, I took the apartment.
[01:41:20]  Well, about, and I moved in there with my sister and it was a one bedroom apartment.
[01:41:26]  Now, about a year and a half, two years later, the apartment manager said that our neighbors were moving out that we could have that apartment, which was two bedrooms and he'd keep the rent low.
[01:41:39]  So we took it.
[01:41:41]  So I told Ruth, I said, Ruth, Now I'm in, I think, 203 instead of 202.
[01:41:47]  She said, Oh my goodness, that was the apartment that I used to live in.
[01:41:55]  So that apartment, I got a call one time from Whitley Strieber.
[01:42:00]  Strieber.
[01:42:00]  Whitley Strieber.
[01:42:05]  He did communion.
[01:42:09]  He was in DC one time and a congressional man wanted to meet with him, but.
[01:42:14]  They didn't have time because Whitley had to catch an airplane back to New York.
[01:42:19]  So they met in my apartment.
[01:42:21]  So Whitley came to my apartment.
[01:42:24]  And then, you know, sooner or later, some people would come to my apartment.
[01:42:29]  Everybody that came to my apartment, you know, they talked about, I see UFOs.
[01:42:32]  I'm like, I see UFOs.
[01:42:34]  And I said, Well, how do you see them?
[01:42:35]  And they said, Well, you can see them.
[01:42:37]  And so all these people would come in with these UFO stories.
[01:42:42]  So finally, one night, Ruth, my friend Ruth, she was ringing the door and she said, I want to come up.
[01:42:49]  I have two of my friends with us.
[01:42:50]  We want to see the apartment because she used to live there and her friends used to.
[01:42:54]  So they came up and Ruth said, Oh, and, you know, she went in one bedroom and said, This was my baby's room.
[01:43:00]  And there was one woman there, Madeline.
[01:43:03]  And Madeline said, Ruth, do you remember what happened in this apartment?
[01:43:08]  And Ruth said, No.
[01:43:10]  And Madeline said, She said, Madeline worked for a man named Adamski.
[01:43:15]  He was an Egyptian researcher.
[01:43:17]  George Adamski?
[01:43:18]  She worked for him.
[01:43:19]  No way.
[01:43:20]  And the very first UFO film was filmed in that apartment.
[01:43:24]  Whoa.
[01:43:26]  Whoa.
[01:43:26]  The synchronicity.
[01:43:28]  That's incredible.
[01:43:30]  Yeah.
[01:43:31]  Whoa.
[01:43:31]  What a mind blowing experience that was to me.
[01:43:34]  And I was like, no wonder everybody that comes through here.
[01:43:37]  It's like a magnet.
[01:43:38]  It was, yes, it was.
[01:43:39]  And the apartment was 203, which was a five.
[01:43:43]  And anything that deals with a five numerology deals with UFOs.
[01:43:48]  And everything that, if you go into any structure that is a five, It's very different.
[01:43:55]  When you walked into my apartment, if you went into any other apartment in that Apartment in that building, everything was on the right.
[01:44:05]  You walked into that one, everything was on the left.
[01:44:07]  It was different.
[01:44:09]  And look at the Pentagon, it's five sides.
[01:44:11]  Yeah.
[01:44:11]  Yeah.
[01:44:12]  But if anything with the, and I noticed that even when people live in a, if they give me their address, they're in a five, I say a lot of adventure comes through, a lot of travel, adventure.
[01:44:24]  Yeah.
[01:44:25]  Yeah.
[01:44:25]  George Adansky is an interesting guy.
[01:44:27]  You know, he had, he was, Like the original Orthon sort of contactee back in the 50s, and, you know, spawned, I think, a whole, you know, swell of interest around this.
[01:44:40]  You know, he was, I think he was the first, was he the first, or was it Dan Fry, or it might have been Adamski or Dan Fry in the early 50s that started having contact with these quote unquote space brothers, which, you know, lasted for years afterwards and continues even to this day to be talked about.
[01:45:00]  Very interesting that that happened there.
[01:45:02]  I noticed the people that saw UFOs, their hookup was different.
[01:45:06]  Like I'm a channelist, you know, so I'm, but they were just different.
[01:45:10]  It was just different.
[01:45:11]  There was something different about them.
[01:45:13]  Yeah.
[01:45:14]  Whoa.
[01:45:16]  After a while, I started noticing the people coming in in UFOs, and there was something very different about them.
[01:45:24]  Yeah, that's a really interesting thing.
[01:45:26]  Wow.
[01:45:27]  Interesting.
[01:45:28]  I didn't, I don't care.
[01:45:29]  Wow.
[01:45:30]  Something to look into.

=== Changes in 2026 (04:06) ===

[01:45:31]  Do you still regularly do sessions?
[01:45:38]  Remote viewing sessions?
[01:45:39]  Yeah, I work for Ed May sometimes.
[01:45:41]  Yeah.
[01:45:42]  Yeah, he gets some money sometimes and he looks at certain things.
[01:45:46]  But yeah, I do remote view for Ed May.
[01:45:48]  Do you ever find yourself doing it for yourself or for your own personal knowledge?
[01:45:56]  Sometimes.
[01:45:56]  Yeah.
[01:45:58]  Is that.
[01:45:59]  Now, here's the other thing with remote viewing a lot of times, too, is like when it's done for personal gain, it really doesn't work that well.
[01:46:09]  Well, you lose objectivity.
[01:46:11]  I see.
[01:46:11]  I mean, I do tarot cards, I do automatic writing, I do tarot cards, I do remote viewing.
[01:46:19]  I do different tools.
[01:46:22]  It depends on what a person wants.
[01:46:24]  If somebody wants to know about a loved one on the other side, I'll do the channeling.
[01:46:31]  So I have different tools depending on what people want.
[01:46:35]  Would this put you on a spot?
[01:46:37]  Would you be open to doing a session today?
[01:46:39]  Yeah, I'll do a session.
[01:46:40]  Really?
[01:46:41]  Yeah, I need, yeah.
[01:46:42]  I'll get you a pen and paper.
[01:46:43]  Okay.
[01:46:43]  What do you need?
[01:46:44]  Pen, pencil, pen and paper?
[01:46:47]  Okay.
[01:46:47]  And do I set a target aside or?
[01:46:52]  Oh, you want me to know?
[01:46:53]  You want a remote view or do you want just information on a regular reading?
[01:46:57]  Could be either or, or, you know, whatever you're open to.
[01:47:01]  I'm not going to.
[01:47:01]  I'd just rather do like a reading.
[01:47:03]  Sure.
[01:47:03]  Yeah.
[01:47:03]  Okay.
[01:47:04]  Because when I remote view, I go down into more like an extended.
[01:47:08]  So if I can just.
[01:47:09]  You know, just get information like a.
[01:47:11]  Okay, I'll get you.
[01:47:12]  Can I do one right now?
[01:47:13]  Yeah.
[01:47:14]  Exciting.
[01:47:14]  Okay, I'll be right back.
[01:47:17]  Well, you want to read it?
[01:47:18]  Do you want to read it?
[01:47:19]  I mean, I'm open to it.
[01:47:21]  When's your birthday?
[01:47:22]  This is real simple.
[01:47:23]  This is real simple stuff, but go ahead.
[01:47:25]  When's your birthday?
[01:47:26]  March 22nd.
[01:47:27]  What year, man?
[01:47:31]  1984.
[01:47:36]  Okay, you were born into this life.
[01:47:40]  You're a communicator.
[01:47:42]  You actually have some, you're actually a healer also.
[01:47:47]  You work very well with others.
[01:47:50]  And you're a natural leader, but you're a writer.
[01:47:54]  Hold on, let's see what's going on with you this year.
[01:48:00]  What went on?
[01:48:04]  Oh, wow.
[01:48:05]  Did you have a lot of changes this past year?
[01:48:10]  Yeah, I would say so.
[01:48:13]  Okay.
[01:48:14]  The changes that you had this year were needed.
[01:48:17]  You probably looked forward to some of the changes, maybe some of the changes you didn't want.
[01:48:23]  They were forced.
[01:48:25]  But what it does, it's setting you up for 2026 to have more, it's going to be more financial gain in 2026.
[01:48:34]  And that's what this year, this past year, it's sort of like you were reshuffled or.
[01:48:39]  Trying to get a realignment or reshuffled, but this past year, 2025, would have represented change for you.
[01:48:48]  All right.
[01:48:49]  So we're getting money in 2026.
[01:48:52]  Is that it?
[01:48:53]  It's the, it's, yes.
[01:48:55]  Nice.
[01:48:55]  Okay.
[01:48:56]  And that usually starts on your birthday.
[01:48:58]  Your birthday is your new year.
[01:48:59]  Oh, interesting.
[01:49:00]  I like that.
[01:49:02]  Yeah.
[01:49:02]  So, yeah, you're, and you are, yeah, you probably are blue.
[01:49:07]  You're, you probably are the aura blue when I look at the, but go ahead and ask a question.
[01:49:15]  I get questions.
[01:49:16]  Okay.
[01:49:17]  And this is about my path or my.
[01:49:20]  Okay.
[01:49:20]  Let me ask you this.
[01:49:21]  What's the purpose of this?
[01:49:32]  What I'm doing now?
[01:49:35]  Okay.
[01:49:36]  It goes channeling.

=== Healing Through Truth (02:45) ===

[01:49:38]  Okay.
[01:49:38]  Oh, to bring awareness to people, to open people's eyes, to help people evolve.
[01:49:50]  And to bring truth to people.
[01:49:53]  They said, truth is truth, light is light, truth remains truth, and light remains light.
[01:50:00]  It's to bring awareness.
[01:50:02]  You're doing it in a very gentle way.
[01:50:14]  On all of how you're doing this and how you're going about trying to educate people, you're doing it in a very loving and gentle way.
[01:50:23]  Which is important.
[01:50:25]  But yeah, you just want to make people more aware of your communicator.
[01:50:33]  You're a communicator.
[01:50:35]  But you're also a healer, too.
[01:50:37]  So, in a way, through all of this work, you're going to help heal people, too.
[01:50:41]  Wow.
[01:50:47]  Yeah, they love it.
[01:50:49]  Keep up the good work.
[01:50:52]  Yeah, you're doing good.
[01:50:53]  When you say they, my guides.
[01:50:58]  Fantastic.
[01:51:00]  Well, right back at them.
[01:51:04]  Incredible.
[01:51:04]  Thank you.
[01:51:05]  Thank you for that.
[01:51:06]  Wow.
[01:51:07]  Did not expect that today.
[01:51:09]  It's lovely to hear that I'm on some sort of right path.
[01:51:14]  As someone who is responsible for, you know, like it or not, an audience, you know, and I, in my own silly little way, am shaping and influencing people's minds.
[01:51:34]  And I know that and I'm aware of that.
[01:51:36]  And that's a big responsibility to harbor without getting like my own, that getting in my own way, like my ego and stuff.
[01:51:46]  Right.
[01:51:46]  So I've always, uh, I've always sort of revered the position I'm in, knowing that there are people out there that will, you know, hang on every word or believe everything I say.
[01:51:58]  And that's to me, that's a lot of responsibility that I, and so I'm always trying to keep this openness to everything, you know, and that's, I guess, been the goal here is to, yeah, let people know and hopefully help the conversation thrive, you know, through these conversations that we're having and ones like this, letting people's minds.

=== Guarding Against Ego (14:53) ===

[01:52:23]  Make up their own reality, so to speak.
[01:52:27]  Thank you for that, Angela.
[01:52:30]  Oh, you're welcome.
[01:52:30]  It's very kind of you.
[01:52:32]  And thank you to your guides.
[01:52:34]  Shout out to the guides.
[01:52:35]  I do have a question, and you let me know if you're comfortable with this.
[01:52:40]  And this I'm only asking because there would be definitely a follow up question here by my audience.
[01:52:47]  I can foresee it already.
[01:52:49]  When you were on the Sean Ryan show, you had stopped at a certain question.
[01:52:54]  You know what I'm referring to?
[01:52:56]  I know everybody asked about that.
[01:52:58]  Have you looked into, have you tried to look into religion at all, such as the crucifixion?
[01:53:13]  Do you have?
[01:53:15]  Do you not want to talk about that?
[01:53:16]  Okay.
[01:53:21]  And I'd be a poor interviewer if I didn't ask it myself.
[01:53:26]  Okay.
[01:53:26]  First of all, I was shocked that he asked the question.
[01:53:29]  When he asked the question, I just, I just, I was in shock.
[01:53:34]  But I stopped because there was no way I was going to answer that question on that podcast because I do know that he gets a lot of, he gets, His audience is mainstream.
[01:53:47]  A lot of his audience is mainstream.
[01:53:49]  So there was no way I was going to, I was just not going to answer that.
[01:53:54]  But no, I did not.
[01:53:55]  But the truth of the matter is, is no, I did not remote view the crucifixion.
[01:54:00]  Okay.
[01:54:00]  I think it was just more in shock that he had asked it.
[01:54:04]  He kind of asked it excitedly or he thought, I don't know.
[01:54:09]  You just weren't comfortable.
[01:54:12]  No, I wasn't comfortable.
[01:54:14]  Yeah, I wasn't comfortable.
[01:54:16]  Yeah.
[01:54:16]  I mean, it's a strange question to be comfortable with.
[01:54:18]  But, you know, people can remote view the past.
[01:54:21]  So if you want to, I mean, but I wouldn't want to remote view the crucifixion.
[01:54:25]  That would be so sad.
[01:54:26]  Yeah.
[01:54:27]  Yeah.
[01:54:28]  I agree with that.
[01:54:30]  And what do you, yeah, what do you take from that, right?
[01:54:32]  As a remote viewer, you're like, well, it's horrific.
[01:54:35]  Yeah.
[01:54:35]  I mean, who would, yeah.
[01:54:38]  And they, and I, and I remember they would do, I think one of the remote viewing sites we had was Massad.
[01:54:44]  Jews took.
[01:54:44]  Oh, yeah.
[01:54:48]  And I remember the very first time I did the, I don't even know why we would have even had that in a target pool for training, but the first time I did it, I got massage and it was uncomfortable.
[01:55:00]  Well, here, a couple of years later, I think the target was pulled for me again and I just wouldn't do it.
[01:55:07]  It just something, something came over me.
[01:55:11]  Something came over me.
[01:55:13]  It like it blocked me and I, and it was like, I'm not doing this again because it was so uncomfortable.
[01:55:18]  Yeah.
[01:55:19]  So I decided not to do it.
[01:55:20]  Uncomfortable in the sense that, like, emotionally, you were just like, Yeah, those dudes were poisoning themselves to kill themselves.
[01:55:26]  So the second time, I did not know it was the Masada site, but I knew something came up.
[01:55:32]  It was something stopped me and said, Don't do it.
[01:55:35]  Okay.
[01:55:36]  Yeah.
[01:55:36]  And you got to listen to that.
[01:55:37]  Yeah.
[01:55:38]  And I just couldn't, I said, I'm not doing it.
[01:55:40]  Great.
[01:55:41]  Yeah.
[01:55:41]  Thanks for answering that question.
[01:55:43]  Do you ever perceive, have you ever perceived any Have you ever perceived any channeling from any entity other than human?
[01:55:54]  Like, because, you know, channeling is just like your guides are coming through you.
[01:55:58]  But have you ever perceived, because we have these channelers that are out there, you know, whether it's Bashar or mainly Bashar, because that, or there's some other ones too.
[01:56:08]  If you look at like the Book of Ra and like, you know, these type of contact cases where they were channeling some entity to come through them and speak through them, has that ever happened to you during these channelings?
[01:56:20]  You mean like the entity coming through me?
[01:56:22]  Yeah.
[01:56:22]  No, that's trans channeling and I don't do that.
[01:56:25]  You don't do that by choice or just?
[01:56:27]  It just never happens.
[01:56:28]  It just happens.
[01:56:29]  Yeah.
[01:56:29]  It's my forte is automatic riding.
[01:56:32]  Yeah.
[01:56:33]  I just, you know, if an entity wanted to come through, I don't let it come through.
[01:56:38]  Because it's not.
[01:56:38]  I actually just spoke to a gentleman.
[01:56:40]  His name is Jose Jofre Mia.
[01:56:42]  He was Spanish Air Force in 1971.
[01:56:47]  He was on duty, night shift, and the dogs were barking and he's like, what's going on?
[01:56:53]  Trained dogs are going nuts right now.
[01:56:55]  Giant UFO overhead, big flying disc.
[01:56:58]  It takes off.
[01:56:59]  They run to the guardhouse.
[01:57:00]  They get the other guys.
[01:57:02]  And then they hear the dogs bark and they go outside and there's this tall, luminous being standing there.
[01:57:06]  They start opening fire on it because they're like army guys.
[01:57:09]  It runs, hits the fence, leaves a hole in the fence.
[01:57:12]  And only years later, he went on a quest after this to figure out what was that night that I saw this tall, blonde sort of like entity that was there.
[01:57:26]  And so he started researching UFOs.
[01:57:29]  He would, you know, go to see witnesses.
[01:57:32]  He got passionate about it because he's like, I want answers.
[01:57:34]  And he couldn't find answers there.
[01:57:36]  And this led him to a more sort of down an esoteric path where he started learning, you know, meditation.
[01:57:43]  He learned all sorts of like healing and eventually got into automatic writing.
[01:57:51]  And it was through the automatic writing that he was able to communicate with this being he called Sharim.
[01:57:59]  Okay.
[01:58:00]  And it would come through in terms of right.
[01:58:03]  And then they set up a meeting date and apparently he met this being.
[01:58:07]  Yeah.
[01:58:08]  So I was just, that was the basis of the question there.
[01:58:10]  Was there, do you ever feel like there was any other influence or was it always just?
[01:58:14]  No, it was mostly, it was just mostly like my guy.
[01:58:19]  They're called joy guides and they're just entities on the other side that maybe didn't, that don't, didn't have past, that don't have past lives or if they ever lived, they're just, they're called joy guides.
[01:58:33]  Is what I was told how I was taught.
[01:58:35]  Cool.
[01:58:36]  Very cool.
[01:58:37]  And they're funny.
[01:58:38]  They're funny.
[01:58:38]  They have a sense of humor.
[01:58:39]  I like that.
[01:58:41]  Are you familiar with Journey of Souls, Dr. Michael Newton?
[01:58:47]  Yes.
[01:58:47]  That is one of my favorite series of books because it kind of bundles up our existence in a nice, neat package.
[01:58:55]  And I like that.
[01:58:56]  It fills all the plot holes that one would have about life.
[01:59:03]  Yeah.
[01:59:03]  It's funny.
[01:59:04]  I mean, even whenever you talk, To people on the other side.
[01:59:07]  It's just funny.
[01:59:08]  Yeah.
[01:59:09]  Yeah.
[01:59:09]  We get that a lot too that they're like, they're tricksters almost and pranking each other and like, like, like mocking, gently mocking us.
[01:59:17]  And there was the one story where this person, through their hypnotic regression, you know, went to the other side.
[01:59:26]  And as soon as he got to the other side, everyone was sort of laughing at him because of how vain he was in that lifetime.
[01:59:32]  And he's like, oh gosh.
[01:59:34]  And like, I was kind of vain.
[01:59:35]  And, and, you know, that it's nice for me to hear that they would have a sense of humor.
[01:59:40]  No, I suppose.
[01:59:43]  Okay.
[01:59:45]  Would you like to answer some questions?
[01:59:46]  Sure.
[01:59:47]  I have an audience.
[01:59:48]  I have my audience ready and waiting.
[01:59:50]  Okay.
[01:59:51]  I'm going to go turn on this camera back here and we'll get into these.
[01:59:53]  Okay.
[01:59:54]  Okay.
[02:00:01]  Fun, right?
[02:00:03]  Listen here.
[02:00:05]  Have you ever encountered a person with psi ability that was perhaps guarding or blocking you from obtaining information from Corinda?
[02:00:15]  Yeah.
[02:00:16]  Who's Corinda?
[02:00:17]  Discord member.
[02:00:19]  Okay.
[02:00:20]  Yes, I do.
[02:00:23]  Oh, that have the psi abilities that was guarding.
[02:00:29]  Okay.
[02:00:30]  Sometimes when people.
[02:00:32]  A person with their own side.
[02:00:37]  Yeah.
[02:00:38]  I mean, if people don't want me to know something and they're blocking, I'm not going to get the information.
[02:00:43]  Whether they have psi ability, whether they don't.
[02:00:45]  I've read people, I've, when I sometimes read people that are very private people and it's very hard to gain information from that.
[02:00:56]  And if somebody does not want you to know something, you're not going to get it.
[02:01:00]  Was there ever a.
[02:01:01]  Did you ever feel a presence when trying to infiltrate a more sensitive area that didn't want you there?
[02:01:11]  Because there are stories of what Joe McMonagall, I think, in Mind Trek, or even Ingo Swan mentions this, where they would go to a place and it would be almost like a sentry was there, preventing you from going further and kind of like, what are you doing here?
[02:01:27]  Yeah.
[02:01:27]  Like I always tell people, I'm going to give you information that I'm receiving.
[02:01:33]  I can't give you information if I don't receive it.
[02:01:37]  So, maybe there is information out there that maybe it just maybe not meant for just not meant for us to have it.
[02:01:44]  I see.
[02:01:45]  And you have to accept that.
[02:01:46]  You have to honor that.
[02:01:47]  Yeah.
[02:01:48]  If you're not meant to have it, you're not going to get it.
[02:01:50]  And if somebody is somebody's blocking or they don't want you to, you're not going to get the information.
[02:01:57]  There was actually something that I wanted to talk about.
[02:02:00]  We touched on it earlier before the podcast, but meeting your Russian counterparts, you were, you were, You were sent or summoned to Russia, I suppose?
[02:02:10]  Or invited?
[02:02:11]  When the Cold War ended in 1991, the Soviet Union no longer existed.
[02:02:19]  And so Dr. May, he was on contract by our government.
[02:02:24]  He said, I'm going over to Russia.
[02:02:25]  He said, this is the most open the country's ever going to be.
[02:02:30]  He said, I want to find out.
[02:02:32]  We had an idea who the scientists were.
[02:02:34]  He wanted to know what were they working on, what was the paranormal.
[02:02:41]  Research being conducted.
[02:02:42]  So he started to go over there and he started to make several trips.
[02:02:46]  Well, after a while, they trusted him and they said, Do you want to meet the general who was ahead of the psychic program?
[02:02:54]  And he said, Yes.
[02:02:55]  And he met Savin, General Savin.
[02:02:59]  And then him and Joe went over and they met some remote viewers.
[02:03:04]  Now, because Ed kept going over there, he started to meet the high ups.
[02:03:10]  I mean, this was in the 1980s.
[02:03:12]  They were spying on us, we were spying on them.
[02:03:15]  Stories were being told.
[02:03:17]  So there was a book written in English, ESP Wars, East versus West.
[02:03:22]  And then there was a book written in Russian, ESP Wars, West versus East.
[02:03:28]  So the book, whenever it was published, we got invited by a Russian newspaper to go over and they held a reception in our honor.
[02:03:40]  So we went over in December 2015 and we met.
[02:03:45]  I met the general who was in charge of the K.
[02:03:48]  I think he was in second of charge of the KGB.
[02:03:52]  You met this person.
[02:03:53]  Yeah.
[02:03:53]  Oh, my goodness.
[02:03:54]  Okay.
[02:03:54]  He He was, they said he was making like weaponry, psychic weaponry.
[02:04:04]  And then we met the man who taught the PK, the movement of objects.
[02:04:09]  He was a psychiatrist and also a regular doctor, and he was teaching psychology at the University of Moscow.
[02:04:18]  So we went to his classroom and he showed us, we went down into the rooms where they taught the PK, how to move objects.
[02:04:27]  And we met a psychic healer who was very popular in Russia, but he traveled with the Yeltsin and with Gorbachev.
[02:04:37]  He was there.
[02:04:38]  He would travel with them because he had to protect them psychically to make sure that they would.
[02:04:47]  That they weren't getting harassed by other psychics or something.
[02:04:50]  Or that they weren't going to be, you know, killed or, you know, like assassinated.
[02:04:55]  Now, what we found out, well, you know, because of this book, what we found out, because Russia has a long history with shamanism.
[02:05:05]  The Russians accepted this phenomenon much more easily than the United States.
[02:05:10]  They had an easier time with it, and because of it, they did more with it.
[02:05:16]  We only remote viewed because of the MK Ultra.
[02:05:19]  The CIA had the MK Ultra and messed with people's minds.
[02:05:23]  So by the time our program came along, there was human use involved.
[02:05:29]  They could not mess with our minds, and we were only contracted to do remote viewing.
[02:05:33]  So Then we met some of their psychics and we asked them, How did you do?
[02:05:40]  We asked them, They said, What method did you use?
[02:05:43]  And they channeled.
[02:05:44]  They were channelists.
[02:05:45]  Really?
[02:05:45]  Whoa.
[02:05:46]  And we said, How do you train people?
[02:05:50]  And they said, We teach them how to open the channel.
[02:05:53]  They were doing what I was doing.
[02:05:55]  Wow.
[02:05:56]  What I was getting with a heart.
[02:05:58]  Yeah, what they were giving you a hard time for.
[02:06:01]  And that's what they were doing.
[02:06:03]  What was that like?
[02:06:03]  Was that like a.
[02:06:05]  Oh my gosh, sigh of relief or?
[02:06:07]  Yeah, I'm like, son of a gun.
[02:06:09]  They're channeling.
[02:06:10]  They're channeling.
[02:06:11]  Now, when they introduced you to this general and this, you know, second in command of the KGB, he said to you that he was developing psychotronic weaponry.
[02:06:21]  Well, I think Ed found that out before.
[02:06:24]  Ed found that out before we went over.
[02:06:26]  Not something he would share publicly, not something he probably shared with you.
[02:06:30]  He didn't share it with me, but Ed had that history with him.
[02:06:34]  Right.
[02:06:35]  Because that is something that the, you know, whether it's the Russia or the Chinese or the Americans, it's probably the number one, you know, on their agendas.
[02:06:45]  Like, how do we weaponize this?
[02:06:46]  You know, if you're looking at the military.
[02:06:49]  And then did you see, did he demonstrate anything, this other person showing you the PK stuff?
[02:06:57]  Yeah, they were trying to work with me.
[02:07:01]  They ran me through the tests.
[02:07:02]  Through the PK stuff?
[02:07:03]  What was the test like?
[02:07:05]  Well, you have to stand back and you stood back and you tried to move something, but then they could more or less gauge it.
[02:07:15]  Somehow I was hooked up to stuff.

=== Weaponizing Psi Abilities (04:03) ===

[02:07:17]  So they could, you know, I didn't move anything.
[02:07:20]  I'm not PK oriented.
[02:07:21]  I've tried it before, but I just wanted to try it and see how they taught it.
[02:07:26]  But I didn't move anything, but they gauge it, I guess, or whatever.
[02:07:31]  Yeah, they got instruments that can tell you if you're affecting the object or whatever.
[02:07:35]  It's interesting.
[02:07:37]  You know, there's a lot of a friend of mine who, you know, obviously, Jesse Michaels, he had interviewed Dan Sherman recently, and he was hired, I think, by the NSA to sort of look into like these type of oscilloscopes and affect the frequency in here and show, you know, even though non physical, still almost telekinetic, right?
[02:08:00]  Interesting.
[02:08:01]  Or psychokinetic, I would say.
[02:08:05]  Okay, cool.
[02:08:07]  I'm glad we talked about that.
[02:08:08]  That's.
[02:08:09]  That's super interesting.
[02:08:10]  Meeting your also the Russian equivalent of.
[02:08:14]  Oh, we want to do it.
[02:08:15]  Ed Mayer and I are trying to do a documentary because we want to show what they did, what we did.
[02:08:23]  And so now we're just trying to get.
[02:08:25]  We have a producer.
[02:08:26]  We're just trying to get some funding up so we can do a documentary.
[02:08:29]  Well, I wish you nothing but the best.
[02:08:30]  I mean, that would be really interesting.
[02:08:32]  I'd love to see the dichotomy or maybe even the comparisons of both the methodries there and like.
[02:08:39]  You know, did anything get leaked on purpose?
[02:08:42]  Was there, you know, I mean, that was a crazy time to be alive when information was, you know, being disseminated between the two countries.
[02:08:50]  You never knew what was real and what wasn't.
[02:08:53]  I'm sure a lot of people even thought that, you know, the psychic stuff was just a bunch of hubbub that the Russians were creating in order to throw us off the scent, you know, and not, you know, ruled out, I'm sure, by a lot of people.
[02:09:07]  Okay.
[02:09:09]  Well, this is interesting.
[02:09:13]  Always good questions.
[02:09:17]  Okay.
[02:09:24]  Do you RV'd or have an opinion on 3Eye Atlas, its origin and nature by Andy Lee Fisher?
[02:09:31]  Are you aware of this giant asteroid that's like, oh, yeah, it's supposed to be coming or something?
[02:09:37]  Yes, some people are saying it's a big alien ship.
[02:09:39]  Other people are saying it's an asteroid.
[02:09:41]  I have not reviewed it.
[02:09:42]  I have not remote viewed it.
[02:09:43]  I'm very interested in it, and I may go remote view it, but I'm very, very interested.
[02:09:48]  I think, I hope it is something exciting.
[02:09:50]  I certainly hope it's something exciting.
[02:09:52]  Yeah, but no, I have not remote viewed it.
[02:09:54]  Could you keep it?
[02:09:55]  Could you keep me in touch if you do?
[02:09:56]  Yes, I will.
[02:09:57]  I will.
[02:09:57]  I will go home and do it and I will, and I will email you my results.
[02:10:00]  Absolutely.
[02:10:01]  I will.
[02:10:01]  That would be amazing.
[02:10:02]  Well, if, yeah, if we can do that within the next week or so, I can probably attach that to this segment here.
[02:10:09]  Okay.
[02:10:10]  And people can see the result.
[02:10:11]  That would be very exciting.
[02:10:12]  Cool.
[02:10:13]  All right.
[02:10:57]  Thank you, Andy Lee Fisher.
[02:10:59]  Great question.
[02:11:00]  Also, something I was wondering.
[02:11:05]  This is something we talked about a little bit, but.
[02:11:10]  This is the last question here.
[02:11:11]  Were you ever scared during any of your RV sessions by Perry?
[02:11:19]  No.
[02:11:19]  No.

=== Meeting Yuri Geller (04:34) ===

[02:11:20]  Never frightened.
[02:11:22]  Okay.
[02:11:24]  Always felt very comfortable.
[02:11:25]  And if you didn't, you would just.
[02:11:27]  Yeah, I was never scared.
[02:11:29]  Okay.
[02:11:29]  I did not like some of the targets, like the one with the masada, but no, I wasn't really afraid.
[02:11:39]  Fair enough.
[02:11:40]  Yeah.
[02:11:42]  Well, that about wraps up our time here, Angela.
[02:11:46]  This has been just such a joy.
[02:11:48]  It's been a joy for me, too.
[02:11:49]  Thank you so much.
[02:11:50]  You're an amazing guest.
[02:11:53]  I'm so glad we finally made this happen.
[02:11:55]  You're just a joy to be around and just a wealth of knowledge.
[02:12:00]  Just really grateful for your time.
[02:12:01]  Thank you for coming here.
[02:12:02]  You have a wealth of knowledge too.
[02:12:05]  I appreciate you saying that.
[02:12:06]  And thank you for my reading.
[02:12:07]  Oh, that's not a problem.
[02:12:08]  Not a problem.
[02:12:09]  All right.
[02:12:10]  Cap it there.
[02:12:13]  And that's a wrap.
[02:12:14]  Yeah.
[02:12:15]  Oh, I want to tell you about my.
[02:12:17]  Oh, I have stories to tell you about my guys whenever you're talking about them being negative or whatever.
[02:12:21]  Yeah.
[02:12:22]  I got a good story for you.
[02:12:23]  And I have a Yori Gower story for you too.
[02:12:27]  Oh, my God.
[02:12:28]  Do you want to talk about it on the pod?
[02:12:29]  Yeah, let's do the.
[02:12:30]  Okay.
[02:12:30]  Let's get back into it.
[02:12:33]  All right.
[02:12:35]  All right, we're in overtime.
[02:12:36]  Oh, yeah, we got to do the Yuri Geller story.
[02:12:39]  It's something we completely failed to mention is that, well, first of all, to set this up, Uri Geller, famed mentalist magician.
[02:12:49]  I'm a magician.
[02:12:50]  We see Yuri, we think he's a magician.
[02:12:53]  But we obviously have heard tons of stories about the infamous Uri Geller and his involvement with the psychic program.
[02:13:03]  I would love to ask you your take on Uri Geller.
[02:13:05]  Okay, well, Yuri Geller was.
[02:13:06]  Was with Stanford Research Institute long before my time, and then he went back to Israel.
[02:13:13]  Um, he was probably in Israel by the time I got into the program in 1986.
[02:13:18]  However, in 2014, there was a woman by the name of Annie Jacobson, she wrote a book, Phenomena.
[02:13:27]  Yes, so she came out to my house and she interviewed me for the book.
[02:13:31]  She interviewed Joe McMonagall, and I think she and she interviewed Dale Graff.
[02:13:36]  So she came out, she interviewed me, she talked about this book.
[02:13:43]  Well, one, and she told me that she went to England and she met with Yuri Geller and she interviewed him.
[02:13:50]  Now, Annie was not only looking at Stargate, she was looking at the whole, you know, since World War II, since how the U.S. government used psychics.
[02:14:02]  So it wasn't just centered on Stargate.
[02:14:05]  So I was, it, Well, I was sitting there a couple of months after she came and interviewed me.
[02:14:10]  I was at my computer and she emailed me and she said that she liked the remote viewing session I did on the St. Louis Arc.
[02:14:21]  And she said she wanted to use it for the book.
[02:14:24]  And she said, Can you email me any information that you remember about doing the site or whatever?
[02:14:30]  So I said, Sure.
[02:14:32]  And then she emailed me and she said, Can you do it now?
[02:14:35]  She said, I want to finish this up.
[02:14:38]  She says, I'm leaving tomorrow to go to Israel to meet with Yuri Geller.
[02:14:43]  And I said, I thought you already interviewed Yuri in England.
[02:14:46]  And she said, I did, but he invited me to his home in Israel.
[02:14:50]  And she says, I've never been to Israel, so I really want to go.
[02:14:54]  So I said, okay.
[02:14:55]  So I did the, we got a nice write up on the St. Louis Ark.
[02:15:01]  So she went over to meet with Yuri.
[02:15:06]  She's visiting him.
[02:15:07]  And it's towards the end of her trip.
[02:15:09]  And she said, I'm going to buy some postcards for my family.
[02:15:13]  I want to send them some postcards.
[02:15:15]  She says, We were in a tea shop.
[02:15:17]  And so the owner of the tea shop said, There's a shelf.
[02:15:22]  He goes, My postcards are on that top shelf up there.
[02:15:26]  So Yuri went and got a postcard.
[02:15:28]  And whenever he picked it up, it was of the St. Louis Ark.
[02:15:33]  Oh, cool.
[02:15:34]  So anyway, I think it freaked her out.
[02:15:38]  Yeah, I think she was like, Oh my goodness, we were just talking about, her and I were just talking about that.
[02:15:43]  So anyway, he signed.
[02:15:44]  He signed the card for me.
[02:15:47]  Oh, wow.
[02:15:48]  I have it.
[02:15:49]  Oh, cool.
[02:15:50]  I forgot to bring it.
[02:15:51]  I should have brought it.
[02:15:51]  That's okay.
[02:15:52]  Some strange psychic overlay there.

=== Psychic Signal Overlays (02:00) ===

[02:15:55]  And that's something that happens a lot.
[02:15:57]  Not necessarily these synchronicities, which also happen a lot, but this psychic overlay.
[02:16:03]  Maybe while we're here, we could just touch on that real quick.
[02:16:06]  Can you describe what that might be?
[02:16:09]  What that is, the psychic overlay that psychics might experience while doing this remote viewing?
[02:16:16]  Like, so, okay, for instance, if you're given a target and someone else is given a different target, how you might be able to pick up on their target or.
[02:16:25]  Oh, sure.
[02:16:25]  It's just energy.
[02:16:27]  Yeah.
[02:16:27]  Oh, it's just energy.
[02:16:29]  You know, like if somebody wants to come to me and they want to talk to their deceased mother while I'm picking up the deceased aunt, you're getting what you're going to get.
[02:16:37]  Okay.
[02:16:37]  You know, well, and they'll say, well, I don't want to talk to my aunt.
[02:16:41]  I want to talk to my mother.
[02:16:43]  I'm like, well, you know, just be thankful that somebody's there that will talk to you.
[02:16:48]  But I don't, yeah, that happens.
[02:16:50]  That happens.
[02:16:51]  It happens also with like high entropic sort of events as well, right?
[02:16:56]  Like if you're targeting something mundane, but next to that target is a nuclear facility.
[02:17:03]  They've gone to the, okay, we had two targets when I worked for, there were two training targets.
[02:17:09]  One was the National Security Agency's building, NSA.
[02:17:13]  NSA does signal.
[02:17:15]  So you get that building and it's a high, you know, you're getting energy there.
[02:17:21]  And right beside the building is Edgar Allan Poe's grave.
[02:17:26]  Okay.
[02:17:27]  So if a remote viewer was given Edgar Allan Poe's grave, they're not going to go to the grave.
[02:17:34]  They're going right to the NSA building.
[02:17:36]  It's, yeah.
[02:17:37]  Wow.
[02:17:38]  Yeah.
[02:17:39]  Yeah.
[02:17:39]  Has that happened with you?
[02:17:40]  Yes.
[02:17:41]  You're going to where the signal is the loudest.
[02:17:46]  That's where you're going.
[02:17:47]  Now, more People that weren't even psychic will come to me, and a lot of people had premonitions of 9 11.

=== Measuring the Big Event (01:01) ===

[02:17:56]  Whoa.
[02:17:56]  That signal must have been pretty strong because a lot of people that don't even consider themselves, I had a dream that 9 11 was going to happen.
[02:18:08]  I had a feeling 9 11.
[02:18:08]  So it's, yeah, it's the signal must have been that strong.
[02:18:12]  There's also the random event generator.
[02:18:14]  Do you hear about this?
[02:18:15]  I think, but go ahead.
[02:18:17]  Yeah, it was like basically plays out ones and zeros on these servers pretty evenly.
[02:18:22]  Pretty randomly.
[02:18:23]  And sometimes they'll have deviations that are like higher than the standard deviation.
[02:18:28]  So they'll have spikes in ones or spikes in zeros.
[02:18:32]  And the biggest spike they've ever had was on 9 11.
[02:18:36]  The biggest spike they've ever had since doing this was on 9 11.
[02:18:40]  So I think that that, you know, as well is like a even like that's a metric.
[02:18:45]  You know, you can actually measure that, that, okay, we don't know what's about to happen, but something big is going to happen.
[02:18:52]  And it did.
[02:18:52]  Yeah.
[02:18:53]  Okay.
[02:18:54]  All right.
[02:18:54]  That's it for overtime.
[02:18:55]  Okay.
[02:18:56]  Thank you, Angela.