DEBRIEFED - Chris Ramsay - Footage of a REAL Alien Exists! - James Fox - DEBRIEFED ep. 21
Aired: 2025-01-10
Duration: 02:09:22


=== Men in Suits Visitations (14:27) ===

[00:00:00]  I heard about real serious visitation of these so called, you know, men in dark suits.
[00:00:04]  And then I heard about it like a number of other times.
[00:00:06]  I heard about it with the McMinnville organ case.
[00:00:09]  She got a visit.
[00:00:10]  Then I heard about it with Rex Heflin.
[00:00:12]  He had a visit with these guys in suits with the 1966 UFO landing at Westall Primary School.
[00:00:20]  Science teacher named Mr. Greenwood.
[00:00:22]  And then we found out he had a visit from men in suits, a general, Parvise Jafari.
[00:00:25]  And he told me, I was like, yeah, the next morning, like the encounter happened in the middle of the night.
[00:00:29]  The next morning, a couple of men in, From the United States government.
[00:00:32]  I don't know what agency they're from.
[00:00:34]  They were there.
[00:00:34]  Oh my God, here they are again.
[00:00:40]  Let's see.
[00:00:40]  I cover a case in Australia, Africa, South America, Chile, England, Russia, China, Canada, Alaska, across the United States.
[00:00:50]  This is a global phenomenon.
[00:00:52]  Has there ever been a moment where it's just like slipped out of your hands?
[00:00:55]  The alien footage.
[00:00:56]  Of Virginia?
[00:00:57]  Yes.
[00:00:57]  You were that close?
[00:00:58]  We had a hard drive in our hands.
[00:01:00]  You had a hard drive in your hands?
[00:01:02]  I had a hard drive in our hands.
[00:01:02]  Let's see how I can talk about this.
[00:01:03]  I want to talk about this without revealing the details because I'm going back.
[00:01:08]  When I walked up to him, I looked him in the eyes, I looked into his soul.
[00:01:11]  I said, I promise you, on my life, there was no camera audio, nothing rolling.
[00:01:15]  This is between you and me, right here, right now.
[00:01:17]  And he looks up at Marco and I and he goes, It happened.
[00:01:20]  Closed the door and off he went.
[00:01:23]  I'm 99.9% sure that I looked directly into the eyes of a gentleman who drove an alien around.
[00:01:29]  I actually have a letter from Spielberg that was written to Larry King.
[00:01:34]  About me and my movie.
[00:01:36]  Whoa.
[00:01:36]  Yeah.
[00:01:37]  I don't talk about this that often.
[00:01:39]  You recently got invited into a skiff.
[00:01:44]  Yeah.
[00:01:45]  And I can say, is that the Pentagon?
[00:01:47]  This is as much as I, because I've been asked not to reveal exactly why I went there because it could interfere with the current investigations that are happening.
[00:01:56]  But we're both going after the same footage.
[00:01:58]  Oh, yeah.
[00:01:59]  One more thing that's really cool.
[00:02:00]  Okay.
[00:02:00]  He said, you know, a little factoid, something you might want to, you know, know.
[00:02:07]  I was like, what's that?
[00:02:07]  He goes, get out of here.
[00:02:09]  I swear on my life, it's what he said.
[00:02:11]  And there's probably, I mean, some framework outside of the government that really knows what's going on.
[00:02:17]  I'm told 20 people.
[00:02:19]  20?
[00:02:20]  20.
[00:02:20]  Wow.
[00:02:21]  Globally.
[00:02:22]  Globally, 20 people.
[00:02:23]  20.
[00:02:24]  Wow.
[00:02:25]  And that came from someone I really trust.
[00:02:27]  Who's the first guest or witness you would get in front of the camera if they were allowed to break their NDA?
[00:02:39]  Yeah, I would agree with that too.
[00:02:40]  I'd love to get him in The SCIF.
[00:02:41]  I have to be careful what I say here, but for reasons that I won't discuss, I believe he's a firsthand witness.
[00:02:52]  Wow.
[00:02:55]  Wow.
[00:02:55]  Have you seen things that if you talk about you go to jail?
[00:03:03]  No, but I could talk about things other people might go to jail.
[00:03:07]  My name's James.
[00:03:09]  With my girlfriend, I look up and there's a like a silver TikTok type shape.
[00:03:17]  Yeah, it's like there's no markings or windows on it.
[00:03:20]  I thought about pulling out my phone to take a picture or record and I went to see where it went and it was gone.
[00:03:28]  Skiff a few weeks ago.
[00:03:29]  I know.
[00:03:30]  The day after we met.
[00:03:31]  I know.
[00:03:32]  We'll get into that.
[00:03:33]  Yeah.
[00:03:34]  It's pretty cool.
[00:03:35]  This is your second time in a skiff.
[00:03:36]  My second time in a skiff.
[00:03:37]  Yeah.
[00:03:38]  Which one was more stressful?
[00:03:40]  This was more.
[00:03:41]  More welcoming because it's got my name.
[00:03:43]  That's right.
[00:03:44]  I like that.
[00:03:44]  Yeah.
[00:03:45]  I feel like, you know, we like to take care of the guests that come in The SCIF here, not to scare them to death.
[00:03:52]  So, Cafefe, nice hat, nice merch.
[00:03:56]  Yeah.
[00:03:56]  Appreciate the shout out.
[00:03:58]  Oh, yeah.
[00:03:58]  Well, I'm so there's two reasons why I'm wearing this hat.
[00:04:02]  One is I love it.
[00:04:04]  Two is my hair is in second place today.
[00:04:06]  Yeah.
[00:04:06]  Same.
[00:04:06]  This hat's in first place.
[00:04:08]  So I figured, you know what?
[00:04:09]  Love the hat.
[00:04:10]  Nobody's paying me to wear this hat.
[00:04:12]  I actually really like this hat and I'll be wearing it a lot more.
[00:04:15]  Great.
[00:04:15]  I appreciate that.
[00:04:17]  Welcome, James Fox, to The SCIF.
[00:04:21]  Thanks for having me.
[00:04:22]  Yeah, man.
[00:04:22]  It's a great pleasure of mine to have you here.
[00:04:24]  And, you know, you're one of the first people to grace this studio among, you know, among only a few people that have ever been here.
[00:04:32]  So I'm really, I'm really happy that we're actually ringing, kind of ringing in the new year now.
[00:04:37]  This is December 31st, last day of 2024.
[00:04:41]  What a way to kick off.
[00:04:42]  It's a few hours to go.
[00:04:43]  Yeah.
[00:04:44]  I'm, yeah, I'm extremely, extremely happy to have you here.
[00:04:47]  You know, obviously, you're coming off the amazing launch of the program and you've been doing the rounds.
[00:04:56]  Yes.
[00:04:56]  You know, you got Rogan.
[00:04:59]  You did Rogan, you know, and then did The SCIF, which the correct order.
[00:05:03]  I think Rogan was my last interview.
[00:05:06]  Was Rogan my last interview?
[00:05:07]  I think he did Duncan.
[00:05:09]  Oh, well, I did Duncan before.
[00:05:10]  Oh, you did Duncan before Rogan.
[00:05:11]  Yeah, I did Shane and then I did Duncan and then I did Rogan.
[00:05:14]  I was like, I really, I might have had a couple of things after.
[00:05:17]  Well, maybe not actually.
[00:05:19]  Maybe, maybe one or two things.
[00:05:21]  I can't remember.
[00:05:21]  But basically, this is my first real sit down since Rogan.
[00:05:25]  Yeah.
[00:05:26]  And your first, like technical, we might get a little technical here because, you know, the ears and eyes that are watching this podcast aren't necessarily just newcomers.
[00:05:36]  These are a lot of people that are in the community that have been following your work for a long time.
[00:05:40]  So you're a familiar face to them.
[00:05:42]  The program was incredible.
[00:05:45]  It was such a much needed, how do you say, like a, it was a culmination of so many different things.
[00:05:52]  I mean, coming off the phenomenon as well, and then moment of contact and The program I felt like was we needed something to really encompass the entirety of what's going on currently.
[00:06:06]  Like it is a time piece, it is something that will be forever cemented in time as, hey, this is what's happening now.
[00:06:14]  This will be remembered.
[00:06:16]  And I thought that was such an important message that you conveyed through that, through the editing, which we talked about yesterday.
[00:06:23]  I mean, you do that yourself, which still blows my mind that you even have time for that.
[00:06:28]  Oh my gosh.
[00:06:29]  But hats off to you as a creator.
[00:06:30]  Thank you.
[00:06:32]  Yeah, phenomenal job.
[00:06:33]  What are your feelings now that the program is out and it's being viewed?
[00:06:37]  How do you feel internally with that?
[00:06:41]  Thank you for that intro.
[00:06:42]  That was lovely.
[00:06:44]  I never had such a deep sense of urgency with any film I've made in the past as I've done with the program because things are happening so quickly.
[00:06:57]  You know, we've had three congressional hearings in the last three years.
[00:07:00]  I mean, that's remarkable for people out there that think things aren't happening quick enough.
[00:07:04]  So, I had this real sense of urgency to get the film out because it's going to be yesterday's news.
[00:07:12]  But also, the mainstream media and people that have not been paying that much attention need to really know.
[00:07:19]  Like, I'm not trying to force anything down anyone's throats, but it's like, hey, there's something going on here.
[00:07:23]  I think people should be paying attention.
[00:07:25]  This is kind of a big deal.
[00:07:26]  Yep.
[00:07:27]  And it's lovely to see the bipartisan workmanship, right?
[00:07:31]  Both Democrats and Republicans working on this issue together.
[00:07:34]  And quite honestly, we're living in a time which is unprecedented, time of a coordinated push for transparency on what, in my opinion, will turn out to be the biggest story of modern history.
[00:07:46]  And you sure will be on the forefront of that, by the way, which I think is very awesome.
[00:07:51]  We're all in it together.
[00:07:52]  We are in it together.
[00:07:53]  That's for sure.
[00:07:54]  This, by the way, is funny.
[00:07:55]  I just pulled this out of my shelf yesterday.
[00:07:57]  I thought it was interesting.
[00:07:58]  You were born in 68?
[00:07:59]  Yes.
[00:07:59]  This was 67.
[00:08:01]  Oh, wow.
[00:08:02]  This is a flying saucers and UFO report.
[00:08:04]  So you're saying that this right here is older than me?
[00:08:07]  That is correct.
[00:08:08]  That's impossible.
[00:08:10]  What's interesting is that that could be framed.
[00:08:13]  Yeah.
[00:08:14]  That is so cool.
[00:08:15]  And what's interesting is they even speculate about the moon landing in that because it happens two years later.
[00:08:22]  So they're like, what are we going to find on the moon?
[00:08:24]  And it's a really interesting thing, but that's a gift for you.
[00:08:26]  I wanted you to have that.
[00:08:27]  Oh, my gosh.
[00:08:28]  Thank you.
[00:08:29]  There's some really interesting cases in there, too.
[00:08:31]  That, as you know, there's so many cases.
[00:08:34]  That, for lack of a better expression, fly under the radar.
[00:08:37]  Yeah.
[00:08:38]  There are thousands of cases out there.
[00:08:41]  And if you go through, obviously, you know, National Archive and all these other, you know, or old books like the Lorenzans, or we're finding out about cases, you could read a new case every day for 10 years.
[00:08:53]  God, there's a young Heineck.
[00:08:55]  This is really cool.
[00:08:57]  You know, I got to interview Kenneth Arnold's daughter, Kim Arnold.
[00:09:04]  She's in the phenomenon.
[00:09:05]  Yeah.
[00:09:06]  And I got to spend a couple of days with her and her daughter.
[00:09:09]  And it was amazing to get the backstory because you have that phenomenal case in June of 1947, which pretty much was the beginning of the modern UFO wave.
[00:09:19]  And that's where they coined the phrase flying saucer because he described it as a saucer skipping over water.
[00:09:25]  And one of the reporters was like, flying saucer.
[00:09:28]  And he was catapulted into the headlines all across the nation, all across the world.
[00:09:33]  I mean, the Kenneth Arnold thing was huge, right?
[00:09:37]  And she, a little backstory.
[00:09:39]  She's like, Oh, yeah, my father was really, really famous.
[00:09:42]  He was recognizable walking down the streets.
[00:09:43]  Like, everybody knew Kenneth Arnold, and he was going to go on a just a little side story, but he was going to go on like a tour.
[00:09:49]  He wrote a book and he was going to go like do all these conferences.
[00:09:53]  And he got a visit.
[00:09:55]  And I was like, He got a visit?
[00:09:57]  Really?
[00:09:57]  She goes, Oh, yeah, he got a visit from men in suits.
[00:10:00]  Came in and they made it very clear he was not going to be doing that.
[00:10:05]  No way.
[00:10:05]  He got spooked.
[00:10:06]  He got majorly spooked.
[00:10:07]  She said, Really?
[00:10:08]  Yeah, that was my first.
[00:10:10]  Experience hearing about the so called, you know, men in suits.
[00:10:14]  I hate to use the word men in black because it's got so much baggage.
[00:10:17]  Disney.
[00:10:18]  You know what I mean?
[00:10:19]  Yeah.
[00:10:20]  So I call it men in dark suits, you know.
[00:10:22]  Fair enough.
[00:10:22]  You know, but it was like that really kind of started in 1947.
[00:10:26]  And I report on it even recently in the program.
[00:10:29]  But in any case, sort of as a side note.
[00:10:30]  You think that was Blue Book?
[00:10:31]  No, that was before.
[00:10:32]  No, that was way prior to Blue Book.
[00:10:34]  It was before I think anything really started because you had Project Sign, which started at some point in 47 or 48.
[00:10:42]  Then you had Project Grudge.
[00:10:43]  So, what was that?
[00:10:46]  I don't know.
[00:10:47]  Yeah.
[00:10:47]  I don't know.
[00:10:48]  Wasn't there, could, but he was going to go on tour and they came and visited him and they threatened him, according to her.
[00:10:53]  And this is what she told me.
[00:10:54]  It was her dad.
[00:10:55]  Wow.
[00:10:55]  Like they threatened him.
[00:10:57]  Like, you, this is a big, big desert out here or something like that, you know, a big, big wilderness area.
[00:11:04]  That's what she said.
[00:11:05]  And I believe she even said that on camera.
[00:11:07]  I should probably go digging for that and release it out into the public.
[00:11:09]  But that's not the first time you've encountered that type of spooky behavior.
[00:11:15]  No, but that was the earliest.
[00:11:16]  That was the earliest.
[00:11:17]  47.
[00:11:18]  Since then, you've encountered quite a few stories of people being told to keep their mouth shut.
[00:11:26]  Has that ever come across your plate?
[00:11:31]  So I probably heard about these intimidators.
[00:11:34]  They obfuscate, they intimidate, they're intimidating, and they come, and if there's evidence, they'll take the evidence, they'll try to take the evidence.
[00:11:46]  They try to get the witnesses terrified to not talk.
[00:11:53]  And I'd heard about these since probably the first time when I was investigating the Phoenix Lights case in the 90s.
[00:12:01]  And I did a couple of films, covered a couple of films on that whole thing.
[00:12:05]  I heard about the first, you know, visitation, real serious visitation of these so called, you know, men in dark suits.
[00:12:13]  And then I'd heard about it like a number of other times.
[00:12:16]  I heard about it with 1950 with.
[00:12:19]  The McMinnville, Oregon case that she got a visit.
[00:12:26]  It was Paul and Evelyn Trent.
[00:12:30]  And Evelyn had talked about her husband was out of the town and this guy showed up and rummaged through her hole from some unknown government agency.
[00:12:37]  And that was 1950.
[00:12:38]  Then I heard about it with Rex Heflin from, I think, Santa Ana, 65.
[00:12:45]  He had a visit with these guys in suits.
[00:12:48]  And I ignored that one, didn't report on it, didn't report on the 51, didn't report on the one from.
[00:12:54]  The Phoenix Lights case.
[00:12:55]  And then I heard a number of other cases in the United States.
[00:12:59]  Then I heard about some cases in Europe, didn't report on it.
[00:13:05]  Always American?
[00:13:06]  Yeah, always.
[00:13:07]  Yeah, there's an unknown government agency in the US.
[00:13:11]  Yeah, that has the ability to reach anywhere.
[00:13:14]  Like I even interviewed a general, Parviz Jafari, from the 1970s UFO incident over Tehran, Iran.
[00:13:24]  Fascinating case.
[00:13:25]  And he told me, I was like, yeah, the next morning, like the encounter happened in the middle of the night.
[00:13:29]  The next morning, a couple of men from the United States government, I don't know what agency they're from, they were there poking around, asking questions.
[00:13:37]  I was like, really?
[00:13:37]  And I didn't report on that.
[00:13:40]  But then I was in Brazil, probably on and off for the last 12, 14 years.
[00:13:48]  But I was in Brazil and it was probably 2013, maybe 2014.
[00:13:52]  And I was interviewing the mother of two really important witnesses that came, according to them, within 10 feet of a live creature in broad daylight.
[00:14:05]  And the mother talked about these men in suits that showed up her house very intimidating, very scary, and very just scary.
[00:14:14]  And intimidating, and they tried to persuade her to get her daughters to lie, and they didn't see what they said they saw, and all this stuff money as well.
[00:14:22]  They offered a briefcase full of money, and that was it.

=== Deciding to Go All In (09:02) ===

[00:14:27]  I was like, okay, these guys exist.
[00:14:29]  I've had enough hearing these stories.
[00:14:31]  I'm going all in, I'm going to report on it.
[00:14:32]  And I did.
[00:14:33]  That put you over the edge.
[00:14:34]  That put me over the edge.
[00:14:35]  Wow.
[00:14:35]  Yeah.
[00:14:36]  Finally, after all those years, you're like, enough of these guys.
[00:14:39]  Well, I knew it was a slippery slope, but I knew like reporting, like, if you look at my the history of my investigations and my filmmaking.
[00:14:46]  I had heard about close encounters of the third kind.
[00:14:48]  Of course, I mentioned the Roswell incident, one of my first films, but in terms of like an alleged close encounter of the third kind, when you've got witnesses reporting entities, beings, you know, creatures, whatever connected to the craft, that to me was a slippery slope.
[00:15:02]  And I just avoided it for over 20 years, probably 25 years.
[00:15:06]  I don't know.
[00:15:07]  And it was the same with the MIB because I just thought, like, A, I can't prove it.
[00:15:12]  It just sounds so out there.
[00:15:13]  Yeah.
[00:15:14]  It just sounds kind of crazy.
[00:15:15]  It sounds cliche almost.
[00:15:17]  Sounds cliche, exactly.
[00:15:18]  And so I finally said, Oh, the hell with it.
[00:15:21]  And then actually, I reported on a lesser version in the phenomenon with the 1966 UFO landing at Westall Primary School.
[00:15:32]  Shane Ryan is very grateful for all the work he's done on that case.
[00:15:38]  But that's when we got a hold of this science teacher named Mr. Greenwood, and he went silent for 50 years.
[00:15:44]  In fact, when I arrived in Australia, people, even like the long term UFO researchers, were like, Don't even bother, you'll never come forward.
[00:15:51]  Wow.
[00:15:52]  And then, so we finally found out he got a visit from men in suits and they scared the air force.
[00:15:57]  Yeah, he wasn't sure.
[00:15:58]  Like, two were in uniform, one was not in uniform, but they basically intimidated him and scared the bejesus out of him.
[00:16:04]  And you silenced him for 50 years.
[00:16:05]  Imagine.
[00:16:06]  Yeah.
[00:16:07]  So, anyway, but enough men in black.
[00:16:09]  Well, it is interesting that they have this sort of omnipresence globally.
[00:16:14]  That is very interesting in that it's always, it always seems to be American.
[00:16:18]  Yeah.
[00:16:18]  You know, because I had this discussion with some friends and we were actually on a Discord and we were talking about is the men in black.
[00:16:25]  Thing just solely a US thing because you hear about a lot of these cases and people are like, Why is it always the US?
[00:16:31]  Why is it always the US?
[00:16:32]  Well, they kind of have agency over everything that revolves around crash.
[00:16:38]  Everything they show up everywhere, they showed up in Virginia.
[00:16:41]  You know, they're retrieving these crafts in Italy, they're retrieving, you know, like all this around the world.
[00:16:47]  Why wouldn't they also have feet on the ground and then Calvine as well?
[00:16:50]  Yeah, it was amazing.
[00:16:51]  That was a last minute development in the program because I'm quite honestly, I'd heard about the 1990 Calvine UFO case.
[00:16:59]  From Nick Pope years ago, right?
[00:17:02]  Well, over 20 years ago, because I was like, Oh, I every time we did be having a beer together, I'd be like, Nick, come on, man.
[00:17:08]  What's the best case here?
[00:17:09]  And hands down, he would just like, Oh, these two guys hiking in Scotland.
[00:17:13]  He never used the word Calvine.
[00:17:15]  I don't believe he did when he told me, but he said these guys were hiking in Calvine, broad daylight, five or six prints of its diamond shape, like disc diamond shape craft with military jets.
[00:17:25]  I was like, whoa, you saw that picture?
[00:17:27]  He goes, yeah, man, we added a poster on the wall.
[00:17:30]  So I like mildly chased after that case because I kept saying to Nick, who's your predecessor?
[00:17:36]  Like, what about people haven't retired?
[00:17:38]  They wouldn't have thrown that picture away.
[00:17:39]  He goes, well, at some point, the poster was no longer on the wall at the MOD.
[00:17:42]  I'm not sure.
[00:17:43]  I said, well, they didn't throw it away.
[00:17:44]  I can assure you that did not get thrown away.
[00:17:46]  Somebody's got to have it.
[00:17:47]  And I was pestering him for, you know, for a long time.
[00:17:51]  And then we cover that case, thank God, to David Clark, because David Clark was going through some redacted documents that were released through FOIA.
[00:18:02]  I don't know what the British equivalent would be.
[00:18:05]  And he saw this thing that said, so and so, the former RAF press officer blacked out, you know, in 1990.
[00:18:15]  So he's pretty, you know, who was the press officer in 1990?
[00:18:18]  Craig Lindsay contacts him.
[00:18:20]  And he managed to keep one of those prints.
[00:18:22]  But so, thanks to David Clark, we had a print.
[00:18:25]  We had the only military, or yeah, I guess he would be military, Royal Air Force press officer, Craig Lindsey, who the only known person to have interviewed the witnesses.
[00:18:37]  So we had him come on camera.
[00:18:39]  We had the print.
[00:18:40]  We had Nick Pope at the former UFO desk at the MOD talk about the case.
[00:18:46]  The only thing we were missing was like, what about the witnesses?
[00:18:48]  What about the people that took the photograph?
[00:18:50]  Where are they?
[00:18:52]  And the last minute, this guy came forward, Richard Greaves, who worked with them in the kitchen.
[00:18:56]  The chef, yeah, the kitchen guy.
[00:18:57]  And that's what it was like.
[00:18:59]  That's when he was like, he started talking about these men that showed up in suits.
[00:19:02]  I was like, oh my God, here they are again.
[00:19:05]  Starts talking about that.
[00:19:05]  Yeah.
[00:19:06]  And I was like, they had a chauffeur, which I thought was interesting.
[00:19:09]  Yes.
[00:19:09]  The chauffeur never got out of the car.
[00:19:12]  He stayed in the car, and the other guys stood in the rain as if it didn't bother them.
[00:19:15]  Hissing rain.
[00:19:16]  He said it was bizarre.
[00:19:17]  Hissing rain sent out there.
[00:19:18]  But I said, oh, is that what they told you?
[00:19:21]  He goes, no, mate.
[00:19:22]  I was there when they rolled up.
[00:19:25]  So, you're a witness to that.
[00:19:26]  Yes.
[00:19:27]  And I love the way he describes it because he's like, I swear to my great, grandparents, grandchildren.
[00:19:36]  Yes.
[00:19:36]  Grandchildren.
[00:19:36]  Yes.
[00:19:36]  So funny.
[00:19:39]  I know.
[00:19:39]  That was almost harder for me to decipher than the Portuguese in the other documentary.
[00:19:44]  So funny.
[00:19:44]  Thick Scottish accent.
[00:19:46]  So, one little side note that I'll share here is that am I allowed to use expletives?
[00:19:54]  Yes.
[00:19:54]  Yeah, go for it.
[00:19:56]  So, Richard Greaves, you know, he'd never really given like a, like I would say on camera or like he'd done one written interview.
[00:20:05]  So written only.
[00:20:05]  So no voice, you know, and they took one photograph of him, but he'd never really given a real interview like what he did with us.
[00:20:13]  And he kept putting it off.
[00:20:14]  And I was approaching the end of production.
[00:20:17]  I mean, the film was a wrap and I was like just putting the finishing touches on and I kept contacting him because he agreed to do it through Richard Clark.
[00:20:26]  Excuse me, David Clark.
[00:20:29]  And he kept putting it off and then he just vanished.
[00:20:31]  And I contacted David Clark and I was like, God, Richard Greaves' testimony is going to be so important.
[00:20:35]  Like, you know, did I pester him?
[00:20:37]  Did I upset him?
[00:20:38]  Maybe I pushed him too much.
[00:20:40]  Like, David's like, no, man, it took me two years to get it written out of him.
[00:20:43]  So that's kind of his nature, you know.
[00:20:46]  And so one night he finally calls and he'd had a couple of pints and he's like, I'm ready.
[00:20:51]  He was obviously clearly nervous from the whole experience.
[00:20:53]  I'm ready.
[00:20:54]  Well, he uses a lot of expletives and, uh, And it was a brilliant interview.
[00:21:00]  I remember it was Lance Mungia, it was Donnie in the room, it was my sister, myself, and I think we had one other person, I'm trying to remember, in the Ed Room that night.
[00:21:10]  And he calls and we get the whole thing.
[00:21:11]  We just capture it on camera and we're going through the interview and he's like, he's like, the fucking white is a fucking ghost.
[00:21:19]  And I made fucking poached eggs, they made toast, you know?
[00:21:23]  And he's like, so at the end of the interview, I called my buddy Jim Martin, who I'm working with on the film, and I said, Jim, man.
[00:21:32]  This guy is a really good interview, but he kind of says fuck a lot.
[00:21:37]  He goes, and Jim's like, okay, well, how many times does he say it?
[00:21:39]  I was like, ooh, a lot.
[00:21:41]  He's like, what, a couple of times?
[00:21:42]  I was like, no, more than a couple, a lot.
[00:21:46]  How many fucks can we include in the movie?
[00:21:48]  He goes, God, I would say a couple of fucks.
[00:21:51]  I would say two, maybe three.
[00:21:53]  I was like, in the whole movie, he goes, yeah, anything more than that.
[00:21:55]  And yeah.
[00:21:57]  So he ate up your entire fuck budget for the program.
[00:22:01]  It was so funny.
[00:22:03]  So I went into the, The sound engineer, this guy at Juniper Post, he's great at Ben Zorayan.
[00:22:09]  And Ben's like, Well, what's going on?
[00:22:13]  I was like, Well, you know, you might have to beep, you know, because I'm only really allowed just a couple of fucks, you know.
[00:22:20]  And this guy is, you know, he's very passionate and he's obviously been sitting on the story for a long time.
[00:22:25]  And Ben's like, Well, how many fucks can, you know, are okay?
[00:22:29]  It was like, We were having this conversation, right?
[00:22:31]  It's like, Well, I think three, maybe two, three, four at the most.
[00:22:36]  He's like, Well, okay, well, I'll just beep them out.
[00:22:40]  And so he starts beeping him out, and then we listen to it.
[00:22:43]  We're like, oh man, that doesn't sound good.
[00:22:45]  He goes, you know what?
[00:22:46]  Let me get in there and do some microscopic surgery.
[00:22:48]  I think I can just get a couple of those fucks out.
[00:22:50]  So we'll only have a couple.
[00:22:52]  So I said it once during the interview, and then he said it a couple of times, but it was really funny.
[00:22:57]  We're having this very serious conversation about like, how many fucks can we get away with in a movie?
[00:23:04]  I think three was the magic number.
[00:23:06]  Meanwhile, this guy's like, yeah, the men in black showed up.
[00:23:08]  Perfect situation to use the F word, by the way.
[00:23:11]  Yes.
[00:23:11]  Oh, yeah.
[00:23:12]  He was like, there were fucking spooks.
[00:23:14]  Yeah.
[00:23:15]  Yeah, he said that.
[00:23:15]  Yes.
[00:23:16]  You know, very passionate.
[00:23:18]  So, I mean, I've got a few questions here, but it does bring me to one question is because you touched on it a little bit, but let's say you're in a situation and a witness is sitting in front of you.

=== The Passionate Individual's Story (15:36) ===

[00:23:30]  What do you do to gain their trust to make them open up?
[00:23:32]  Like, what is that like?
[00:23:33]  What is that exchange like?
[00:23:35]  Because I know a lot of times, a lot of these people, like, as we mentioned, are scared, are threatened.
[00:23:41]  So, what is your sort of go to tactic to get them to open up?
[00:23:46]  Is it just.
[00:23:47]  Time, or is it something else?
[00:23:49]  Like, what do you go for that?
[00:23:50]  A lot of people think that, and I try not to read the comments.
[00:23:55]  George and Abb always tell me, don't read the comments.
[00:23:57]  And sometimes I do.
[00:23:59]  And it's very nice when you get people, you know, very supportive of what you do with them.
[00:24:04]  People are like, oh, you know, people are just coming forward because they want to be in the limelight.
[00:24:09]  And I'm like, you know, the better the witness, the more difficult it is to get these people to come forward.
[00:24:15]  Like, I cannot emphasize, I cannot overstate that.
[00:24:18]  I. Remember this guy, James Rigney in Australia, goes, he's like, How do you do it?
[00:24:24]  How do you get these guys to come forward?
[00:24:26]  I said, James, and I was serious.
[00:24:28]  I said, James, I look into their soul in their eyes.
[00:24:31]  I look into their soul.
[00:24:32]  He goes, You look into their soul.
[00:24:34]  I said, Yeah, I do.
[00:24:35]  And I say, This story is so much more important than any one of us.
[00:24:40]  This is something that could affect the lives of every man, woman, and child on this planet.
[00:24:45]  And we have to remember that.
[00:24:47]  And I look into their soul, and that's what I do.
[00:24:50]  And I remind them of that.
[00:24:53]  Like, this is so much bigger.
[00:24:54]  And it's really hard.
[00:24:57]  And, you know, I've had people tell me, I don't care all the money in the world, I'm never coming forward.
[00:25:01]  And then just spend a little time with them and magic can happen.
[00:25:06]  Beautiful.
[00:25:06]  Yeah.
[00:25:07]  That's, I'm glad you didn't, I'm glad you weren't like, well, I don't have to pay him off or like.
[00:25:12]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:13]  No, James Wigny is the only other person that ever asked me that question.
[00:25:16]  It's a great question.
[00:25:17]  Yeah.
[00:25:17]  I mean, it's just so fascinating because being someone who's getting into this and investigating a lot of this stuff as well, I find that that is like the murkiest territory because facts exist, data is out there, footage, photos, but testimony.
[00:25:32]  Is the rare stuff that we found.
[00:25:35]  Like, there are, I mean, obviously, you know, seeing an HD video is something else, but the next best thing is a human interaction, in my opinion, because I think that conveys much more than what you can read on a transcript.
[00:25:47]  It conveys emotion, it conveys real fear or real surprise.
[00:25:51]  And these are things that you can't fake.
[00:25:53]  And you can put someone on a lie detector all you want, or you can do all the other extra things.
[00:25:58]  But this, for me, is the most convincing thing.
[00:26:02]  Part of it, Kirk McConnell uh stepped down from the Senate Armed Service Committee.
[00:26:07]  He uh spent 37 years top secret clearance.
[00:26:09]  He talks about what he did from 2017 to 2024 uh in the program.
[00:26:17]  And and uh, there was one little clip that he gave that I actually like to take the credits and I like to spice the credits up.
[00:26:23]  And I always put these little Easter eggs in the credits because when I'm editing, I like to color coat everything and I'll have like like purple.
[00:26:34]  Pink, gold, blue.
[00:26:37]  And then, and then, and then once I color code everything and organize them, and then I'll, I'll, in the timeline, I'll put the video signal, I'll stack it.
[00:26:45]  And stuff that's right at the top is like, it's got to go in the movie.
[00:26:49]  It's purple, it's got to go the top, or it's gold, it's golden.
[00:26:51]  If it's blue, it's generally B roll.
[00:26:53]  And then I stack it.
[00:26:55]  And sometimes I just don't find a place for it in the movie.
[00:26:57]  It just doesn't fit.
[00:26:58]  Right.
[00:26:58]  But I was like, this is so good.
[00:26:59]  So I always like to take all those little gems, I call them GMs, golden moments, and I put them off to the end of the timeline.
[00:27:06]  And then I, I stack them all up there and I see one and I put them all in the same spot.
[00:27:11]  And then at the end of the movie, I go to those little GMs and I put them in and I sprinkle the, you know, with good music, the credits.
[00:27:18]  And then I'll show another GM.
[00:27:23]  And Kirk McConnell makes a really good point.
[00:27:26]  He says, you know, we put people, we sentence people to death based on eyewitness testimony.
[00:27:32]  But that same logic doesn't apply to the phenomenon, right?
[00:27:38]  Wow.
[00:27:38]  And I thought, what a really good point.
[00:27:41]  He's totally right.
[00:27:42]  Like, eyewitness testimony is relevant when it comes to the phenomenon.
[00:27:45]  Just because we can't explain it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
[00:27:48]  That's right.
[00:27:49]  So, yeah, it's a good point.
[00:27:51]  Yeah.
[00:27:51]  Was there ever a whistleblower you came across that you didn't believe?
[00:27:57]  Not a whistleblower per se, but maybe someone who came forward.
[00:28:00]  Yeah, I'd rather not use that individual's name.
[00:28:01]  But would you say yes?
[00:28:03]  Yes.
[00:28:04]  How do you handle that situation?
[00:28:05]  Where you just let them speak and then be like, I'm going to cut this?
[00:28:07]  Like, what's that like for you?
[00:28:09]  Or is that like heartbreaking?
[00:28:11]  What is that like?
[00:28:11]  I remember I got contacted.
[00:28:13]  There was this one individual.
[00:28:14]  This individual will remain nameless, but it was to do with the Bentwaters December 1980 UFO incursion over the joint U.S. British Air Base, the landing.
[00:28:25]  Mm hmm.
[00:28:25]  And there was one particular individual that I just found him sketchy.
[00:28:29]  And we'd already interviewed him.
[00:28:32]  And it was good for the movie out of the blue.
[00:28:34]  And I got into an argument with my co producer, but I was ultimately the director.
[00:28:38]  And I got to override, even though these guys were 10 years my senior.
[00:28:41]  I was like, no, no, no, no.
[00:28:43]  And I was like, why?
[00:28:44]  And because I just didn't get the vibe, man.
[00:28:48]  I just, I don't know.
[00:28:50]  And I struggled with that too.
[00:28:52]  It was a gut thing.
[00:28:53]  Yeah, it was his mannerisms, it was the way he conducted himself in the interview, his eye contact.
[00:28:59]  Just didn't quite align with me.
[00:29:01]  I really had an issue.
[00:29:03]  Some of the claims were inconsistent with the other witnesses.
[00:29:06]  And I just, I don't know, man.
[00:29:07]  It seemed like, I don't know.
[00:29:09]  I kind of got the impression that he believed what he was saying, but I don't know.
[00:29:13]  It just.
[00:29:14]  You were buying it.
[00:29:14]  I wasn't.
[00:29:15]  Yeah.
[00:29:15]  And so I remember I had this argument with my buddy Tim Coleman over it.
[00:29:20]  He forgave me in the end.
[00:29:21]  But, and then I had some people contact me later on and be like, oh, I can't believe you, you know, you didn't include that.
[00:29:26]  And then like 10 years after that, they were like, ooh, good thing you didn't include that.
[00:29:30]  It turned out to be kind of right.
[00:29:33]  And sometimes people are.
[00:29:34]  Maybe exposed to disinformation unknowingly, you know?
[00:29:37]  Some, you know, I mean, one of the things that Deputy Base Commander Colonel Charles Holt had talked about with the Bentwaters case in 1980 was that this, again, I think it was a plane that came in from Germany and it was some U.S. unknown government agency that stepped in and kind of took over and sanitized the whole case and subjected,
[00:29:57]  according to the base commander, Deputy Base Commander Charles Holt, a lot of the witnesses to sodium pentothal and like, Tweak them out and God knows whatever they else did in, you know, interrogation or some MK Ultra stuff.
[00:30:11]  Weird shit.
[00:30:13]  And so maybe, you know, maybe other memories were implanted.
[00:30:17]  Who knows?
[00:30:18]  I mean, what kind of games they're playing, you know?
[00:30:21]  And I think that could happen to witnesses that have a legitimate, you know, experience and then get manipulated post experience.
[00:30:29]  And that kind of just throws everybody off because it's like everybody's talking about a landing and then all of a sudden, you know, one individual's talking about contact.
[00:30:37]  What all these other people were there, it doesn't align with everybody else's memory, something's off, yeah.
[00:30:42]  And sometimes I think it's a deliberate effort to obfuscate the whole thing, yeah.
[00:30:45]  Right?
[00:30:46]  It's like the Holloman landing case, I'm convinced.
[00:30:48]  And I don't, well, I think it was like probably 1964 is my guess on the date.
[00:30:54]  I could be wrong, but I think it's 1964.
[00:30:57]  And I was investigating a case, a landing case in Socorro, New Mexico that also occurred in 1964.
[00:31:01]  And Socorro is very close to Holloman, White Sands.
[00:31:06]  And I'm investigating that case and I was reading some articles by Corral Lorenzen and led me to a documentary, UFOs, Past, Present, and Future, with Alan Sandler and Bob Emenager.
[00:31:18]  Mm hmm.
[00:31:19]  And I was like, oh man, that case really happened.
[00:31:21]  And then I came across some information like there was a meeting with the president and all this other stuff.
[00:31:25]  And I was like, boy, that suddenly goes sideways.
[00:31:29]  Not to say that it did or didn't happen.
[00:31:30]  I don't know.
[00:31:31]  I certainly started to believe that the Lanning case happened.
[00:31:33]  And all of a sudden they're talking about meeting with presidents and all this other stuff.
[00:31:36]  And I kind of threw me off the case.
[00:31:39]  And I was thinking to myself, was that an intentional thing to throw people off?
[00:31:42]  Like you take an incident that most likely happened and then you throw a bunch of crazy, Right.
[00:31:49]  Unsubstantiated stuff in there to throw people off.
[00:31:51]  Who knows?
[00:31:52]  But unfortunately, a guy named Paul Shardle, who worked at Norton Air Force Base security.
[00:31:56]  Yeah, that was, excuse me, in the early 60s.
[00:32:00]  So what happened was they were doing that, they were shooting that documentary, UFOs Past, Present, and Future, and they were having an unprecedented level of access granted to them by the government.
[00:32:16]  It was quite remarkable.
[00:32:17]  They were going on all these military bases and go watch the movie.
[00:32:19]  It's incredible.
[00:32:21]  Colonel Coleman at the time was either press liaison for the Pentagon or press officer, but in any case.
[00:32:28]  And he basically called the various bases hey, there's a film crew coming, Alan Sanders, guy Bob M. Minniger, give them full access and show them around the base doing an interview about UFOs.
[00:32:40]  And so Paul Shardle got that message like, hey, these guys are showing up.
[00:32:45]  And they did at Norton Air Force Base.
[00:32:48]  And Paul had just processed film footage of.
[00:32:51]  A landing of a disc at Holman Air Force Base.
[00:32:55]  And Paul showed it.
[00:32:59]  Unfortunately, Eminator wasn't filming that day at the base, but Alan was there.
[00:33:07]  So Paul pulls Alan into the screening room and shows him this footage of a landing.
[00:33:12]  And Paul Shardle's convinced it's a legit landing.
[00:33:17]  And so I'm investigating this whole thing and I'm talking to, Emmenager about it.
[00:33:23]  And then it's revealed that Alan was shown this footage.
[00:33:26]  And I have this thing, and I've talked about this before.
[00:33:29]  And I did this with Fire in the Sky, Travis Walton.
[00:33:33]  I remember the first time I met him, I will sometimes close my eyes and I'll get their words to create the imagery in my head.
[00:33:41]  So it's like I'm almost experiencing it through their eyes.
[00:33:44]  So I'll close my eyes and let the words create the imagery.
[00:33:48]  So I'm watching like a film strip as opposed to like listening.
[00:33:51]  To words, do you know?
[00:33:53]  So I did that with Alan and I said, Okay, Alan, and I asked him every possible detail you could ever imagine because I wanted to see that footage as best I possibly could.
[00:34:02]  So I was like, Let me get this straight.
[00:34:04]  Alan, you're telling me that you saw the footage of the landing at Hallman?
[00:34:10]  Yes.
[00:34:12]  How did you see it?
[00:34:14]  He's like, well, Paul Sharl pulled it out and showed it to me.
[00:34:16]  I was like, why didn't Emmenager see it?
[00:34:17]  He wasn't with me that day.
[00:34:19]  Okay.
[00:34:20]  So then what happened?
[00:34:21]  He goes, well, he said it was like three discs at a high altitude, maybe 9,000 feet.
[00:34:29]  And they were escorted by military jets.
[00:34:31]  I don't know if he said one jet or multiple jets.
[00:34:33]  I don't know.
[00:34:34]  But the three discs, I know for sure.
[00:34:35]  I remember that for sure.
[00:34:37]  Three discs coming in, and it's late afternoon.
[00:34:40]  It's either early morning or late afternoon.
[00:34:42]  I think it was late afternoon.
[00:34:43]  Three discs coming in.
[00:34:45]  At high altitude, they get over the base.
[00:34:48]  Two of them peel away, and then the third one in the middle oscillates down.
[00:34:55]  He goes, Alan goes, Yeah, like it was like it was in trouble or something, it wasn't flying that well.
[00:34:59]  And I'm thinking to myself, That's how they fly when they're going slow, they do this like a leaf kind of falling.
[00:35:04]  He said, The disc came down, wobbling like it was in trouble.
[00:35:08]  And he goes, James, it landed.
[00:35:10]  And I said, Okay, was it a tripod?
[00:35:12]  Would you know, yes, he goes, I think the camera was on a tripod because it wasn't handheld, it looked like they were anticipating something going down.
[00:35:19]  Or maybe they were filming some other exercise, they were ready, but he goes, Yeah, it was locked.
[00:35:23]  It seemed like they knew this was happening, or they were filming something else.
[00:35:27]  I can't remember.
[00:35:28]  I wish I could remember that detail, and I should remember that detail, but I don't.
[00:35:30]  But I mean, jets escorting, and it would seem that way.
[00:35:34]  It seems a little too perfect, that I don't know for sure.
[00:35:36]  I wish I could.
[00:35:37]  Anyway, so the disc comes down, and he goes, James, and I said, Well, did it have a tripod landing?
[00:35:43]  Did it have pods?
[00:35:45]  Like, what did it land?
[00:35:45]  He goes, You know, James, I don't remember, but it was firmly sitting on the ground.
[00:35:49]  And this is the part I remember really well.
[00:35:51]  He goes, James, like in a sci fi movie, there were no seams.
[00:35:54]  Like this door just opens up and drops to the ground, and there's stairs.
[00:35:59]  And two beings are, you know, come out and they flank either side of the staircase.
[00:36:07]  And then a third one comes out, and he said it had like.
[00:36:09]  And Alan was convinced that this was a real flying saucer with real technology, not a special effect, but that they took a real flying saucer and dressed people up like aliens as a staged event, which I. Don't believe that, but whatever.
[00:36:26]  That's a side note.
[00:36:28]  And Alan goes, Yeah, just like in a sci fi movie, this thing opens up.
[00:36:31]  There are no, like, you couldn't see a door there, and it just opens and drops.
[00:36:34]  Staircase, two guys get out.
[00:36:37]  They flank the staircase, and then a third gentleman gets out.
[00:36:41]  And he said he had, like, a tight fitting suit on.
[00:36:45]  He had a big nose, tiny mouth, not much of a chin, big eyes with vertical slits.
[00:36:51]  And then he had this, like, headgear, almost like Egyptian headgear.
[00:36:55]  And then he had a, and this is what Alan told me.
[00:36:59]  He had like some kind of device that he assumed was supposed to be a translator device, a communication device, didn't know for sure.
[00:37:07]  And he was met by people in uniform, dressed, you know, military officers in uniform.
[00:37:12]  I was like, What happened then?
[00:37:14]  He goes, Well, they met this one individual and he went over to a Jeep, got in the Jeep, and off they drove.
[00:37:21]  And then the film footage ends.
[00:37:22]  I said, The film footage ends with the disc just sitting there on the ground.
[00:37:25]  He's like, Yeah.
[00:37:27]  So I find this out.
[00:37:29]  And I mean, quite honestly, I was like, Holy shit, because I was starting to believe.
[00:37:33]  That case had happened because I was investigating the Socorro landing case that happened in April 24, 1964, and with a police officer named Lana Zamora.
[00:37:44]  And I was really sticking my teeth into that case over a five year period.
[00:37:47]  Now, Holloman's just a stone's throw from Socorro, right?
[00:37:52]  As the crow flies.
[00:37:53]  Well, I believed, I absolutely believed in the landing and the close encounter of the third kind in Socorro, which is one of the most well documented close encounters of the third kind in US history.
[00:38:05]  Why not have something similar at the base?
[00:38:08]  Why not?
[00:38:09]  I have to be open to that.
[00:38:12]  So I'm sitting there going, whoa.
[00:38:14]  So then I'm talking to Eminager about it.
[00:38:17]  I was like, Eminager?
[00:38:18]  Well, so I said, well, Alan, why didn't you ever tell Eminager?
[00:38:21]  And I actually have video of a phone call that I made.
[00:38:25]  I have it somewhere.
[00:38:25]  I should dig it up where I called.
[00:38:28]  I was with Alan and I called Eminager, or I was with Eminager and I called Alan because I was like, why is it that you didn't tell the partner that you were doing the documentary with back in 1972 that you were shown the footage by Paul Shardle?
[00:38:44]  He's like, well, some men in suits showed up either later that day or first thing the next morning, took the footage from Paul Shardle, took it away, gone.
[00:38:55]  And like, don't ever talk about this kind of thing.
[00:38:57]  And so Alan didn't tell his own partner that he'd seen it until years later, but I have him on camera.
[00:39:03]  So then I was talking to Eminager about it.

=== Sitting on a Huge Archive (06:28) ===

[00:39:07]  And I said, well, Alan thinks it was a real flying saucer.
[00:39:09]  So you had that technology in 1972, but there was a staged event with people looking like aliens.
[00:39:15]  And Eminager's like, bullshit.
[00:39:16]  No.
[00:39:17]  I said, why do you feel so adamant about that?
[00:39:19]  He goes, because I knew Paul Shardle.
[00:39:21]  I actually talked to Paul Shardle about it.
[00:39:23]  I talked to the guy that processed the film budget at Norton Air Force Base.
[00:39:26]  And he goes, in fact, and he dug it up.
[00:39:29]  He did a search for Paul Shardle and Robert Eminager on some TV show in the either late 70s or early 80s.
[00:39:36]  And he died in a car crash.
[00:39:36]  Paul Shardle with his wife, a head on car collision.
[00:39:39]  They both died.
[00:39:40]  But before that happened, he gave an interview and he talked about why he believed that was a legitimate UFO landing that was captured on film footage.
[00:39:47]  In fact, I've talked to.
[00:39:49]  People about it within the government recently.
[00:39:52]  Like, you should go after that footage.
[00:39:53]  I think it exists.
[00:39:54]  In fact, I can put you in touch with the guy who's seen it.
[00:39:57]  That's the holy grail.
[00:39:58]  That's the holy grail.
[00:39:59]  That's the one.
[00:40:00]  That answers another question.
[00:40:02]  Like, what's the thing?
[00:40:02]  And that's it.
[00:40:04]  That's got to be it.
[00:40:05]  Well, in terms of multi angles.
[00:40:07]  Yeah.
[00:40:07]  I mean, yeah.
[00:40:08]  In terms of a case that happened on a military base, boy, that's pretty damn good.
[00:40:13]  It's pretty damn good, especially considering that, you know, the cameras were in focus enough and had the quality enough.
[00:40:21]  To notice that the seam appeared on the craft.
[00:40:23]  And that's a big detail for me because when filming something like that with these old cameras, you'd expect fuzzy grainy.
[00:40:29]  But if you can tell from that footage that the seam opened, that means you can probably see the expression on those beings' faces.
[00:40:35]  Like that's a heck of a claim.
[00:40:38]  Yeah.
[00:40:39]  I know it's a remarkable case.
[00:40:41]  But, you know, Varginia is also, because it's more recent in 96.
[00:40:46]  And that does have something to do with people's ability to believe in the story as well, right?
[00:40:51]  That holds some importance to you.
[00:40:53]  Yeah.
[00:40:53]  Preponderance of eyewitness testimony.
[00:40:55]  I mean, it pretty much, I mean, if you go to the town of Varginha, Brazil, which is about four hours north of Sao Paulo, chances are, if you go down to the main square and you start talking about it, they'll either have, you know, especially if they're older, a firsthand knowledge or like, oh, my cousin, my brother, my mom, my, you know.
[00:41:13]  That was actually a question for later coming up in the Discord by Nelson.
[00:41:16]  He wanted to know.
[00:41:17]  He was like, he loved moment of contact.
[00:41:20]  And Nelson is a great friend.
[00:41:22]  He's the memory champion I told you about.
[00:41:24]  But he was, he said, you know, Would James be willing to elaborate a little bit on those interactions?
[00:41:30]  Because he found that, like many of us, so fascinating that at the very beginning, it kind of caught you off guard how forthcoming just the local citizens were about this.
[00:41:40]  Oh, you're knocking on doors.
[00:41:41]  You would just ask people and they had answers for you.
[00:41:43]  Can you elaborate on that?
[00:41:45]  Like, is there a lot that you left out of those interactions?
[00:41:48]  Yeah.
[00:41:48]  I mean, yeah.
[00:41:49]  Unfortunately, you know, you shoot hundreds of hours of interviews and you got to whittle it down to an hour and 40 minutes, hour and 45 minutes, maybe.
[00:41:59]  That's a really tough decision, right?
[00:42:01]  I mean, I call it killing your darlings.
[00:42:03]  I mean, there's so many GMs in there that you just can't squeeze into a movie and it's heartbreaking.
[00:42:09]  In fact, at some point, I think I might be, I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I think I might be probably sitting on the biggest archive of interviews over the last 30 years because I've made so many documentaries and there's so many.
[00:42:21]  So much content.
[00:42:22]  I was actually talking to some people the other day.
[00:42:24]  I might have been talking to Jesse Michaels.
[00:42:26]  Hey, if I had some resources, not financial resources, but manpower, we can go through all my various tapes and interviews over the last three decades and make it all available to people, put it out there for free.
[00:42:39]  That was my next question.
[00:42:40]  I was like, when are we going to see the YouTube mashup of all this?
[00:42:43]  Because as a content creator, you're sitting on a pile of gold.
[00:42:46]  I'm sitting on a pile of gold.
[00:42:47]  And a lot of people are, I got the only interviews with them before they died.
[00:42:51]  Wow.
[00:42:51]  A lot of people, a lot of people.
[00:42:53]  That's like Roswell stuff.
[00:42:55]  Oh, yeah.
[00:42:55]  I was there filming in 1997 in Roswell.
[00:42:58]  I was getting people talking about it.
[00:43:00]  I remember it because I was kind of new to it.
[00:43:02]  I was only in it for a few years at the time.
[00:43:05]  But the one distinct advantage I had going to Roswell for the 50th anniversary is A, it was getting a lot of attention in the media.
[00:43:10]  And B, if people were in their 20s during the experience or maybe their 30s, they were in their 70s and 80s.
[00:43:17]  Right.
[00:43:18]  So they were still around.
[00:43:19]  They were still there.
[00:43:20]  I must have talked to at least 15 people, maybe 20.
[00:43:23]  My goodness.
[00:43:24]  And a lot of them on camera, you know, I would just get them like, you know, just this guy was like, you know, talked about the mayor.
[00:43:30]  I think it was the mayor at the time.
[00:43:31]  He said he was white as a ghost, saw some of this stuff, and he said that they not only threatened them.
[00:43:36]  These I heard this from at least 10, maybe 15 people that they were saying they're not only going to be picking my bones out of the desert, but your family's bones.
[00:43:47]  That's what they told me.
[00:43:49]  Do you think there's any, do you think there's any credence to this?
[00:43:52]  Is something I've been researching recently, but.
[00:43:54]  You know, just on that, that you mentioned that you touched on there the threatening of the families and everything else, and the people who work for these legacy programs.
[00:44:04]  Do you think there's any validity to recruiting out of places like BYU and like Utah?
[00:44:12]  I got to say, I don't have much concrete information on that.
[00:44:17]  I don't know.
[00:44:18]  Yeah, it's something I've just been recently turned on to because of the nature of their faith.
[00:44:24]  They don't drink smoke, they're straight arrows, they have large families.
[00:44:28]  And there's an article put out certainly makes sense a few years back about the FBI.
[00:44:34]  There was actually, this went to court.
[00:44:35]  Because there was a case made against the FBI that they were basically recruiting, there was discrimination for recruitment within these three letter agencies because they were solely pretty much recruiting Mormons.
[00:44:50]  Wow.
[00:44:51]  Yeah.
[00:44:51]  Wow.
[00:44:52]  Yeah, because they got large families.
[00:44:53]  They're never going to talk.
[00:44:54]  They never drink.
[00:44:56]  They never do drugs.
[00:44:58]  And, you know, they're all into like family and hiking and work, and that's it, you know?
[00:45:01]  So there's something really, and, you know, when you look at Doug Way, you look at all the, Interesting places in Utah.
[00:45:09]  It kind of makes sense that BYU would be like this breeding ground for these straight arrow white male intelligent, you know what I mean?
[00:45:17]  Because that's the whole profile of these agents, it seems like.
[00:45:22]  People often mistake me for being like a Richard Dolan.
[00:45:28]  Richard Dolan has got a breadth of knowledge on cases far expanding, way beyond anything that I'll ever have.

=== New Developments Emerge (03:38) ===

[00:45:35]  The cases that I know, I know because I put boots on the ground.
[00:45:39]  I mean, I've been to China, I went to Australia, I went to Africa, I went to South America, I went to Russia, I went to, do you know what I mean?
[00:45:45]  And I know those cases really well because I met the witnesses, I went to the, you know, all those spots.
[00:45:49]  I mean, case in point, Virginia, I mean, I went, I'm still going there.
[00:45:54]  I'm going to go there probably next month.
[00:45:56]  Well, for.
[00:45:56]  Let me stop you there.
[00:45:58]  Yeah.
[00:45:58]  So you said you're going to go there next month.
[00:46:00]  Yes.
[00:46:00]  Is that something, is this like a continuation or is this a personal project or is this like.
[00:46:05]  Continuation.
[00:46:06]  Really?
[00:46:07]  Oh, yeah.
[00:46:08]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:46:08]  Wow.
[00:46:09]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:46:09]  So you're saying there might be new developments.
[00:46:11]  Oh, there's definitely new developments.
[00:46:12]  Yes.
[00:46:13]  That you're aware of already.
[00:46:14]  Yes.
[00:46:14]  How long did it take?
[00:46:17]  I got half guaranteed, which is great.
[00:46:21]  So if I come back with just that, it's going to be golden.
[00:46:24]  Half the documentary.
[00:46:25]  Sorry, I got half of the secured interviews that are, it's phenomenal.
[00:46:30]  I understand.
[00:46:31]  Yeah, that's like locked.
[00:46:33]  Okay, that's good.
[00:46:34]  Now I got the other half that you got to go there.
[00:46:38]  It'll either happen or it won't happen.
[00:46:39]  If it happens, it'll make world news.
[00:46:41]  But again, who knows?
[00:46:43]  Who knows?
[00:46:43]  This is a tough nut to crack.
[00:46:46]  But it's like, I'm not gonna, I don't just give up on things.
[00:46:49]  Case in point, look at Calvine.
[00:46:50]  I mean, I was chasing that down for 20 plus years.
[00:46:53]  I don't let it go, you know.
[00:46:55]  And it's great too, because other people like David Clark is amazing.
[00:46:58]  We wouldn't be talking about Calvine if it wasn't for him, you know.
[00:47:01]  But I never took my eye off that case.
[00:47:02]  And as soon as I read that first article, I was like, oh my gosh, I gotta go, I gotta go to Scotland.
[00:47:07]  I gotta cover that because it's amazing.
[00:47:09]  And new developments are constantly happening.
[00:47:10]  We put in the movie, the program.
[00:47:13]  If you have any information on this case, like, you know, it's the same thing for Varginha.
[00:47:19]  All these cases, I mean, they're, you know, people are starting to come out of the woodwork and people are starting to feel a little safer.
[00:47:25]  We're living in an unprecedented time.
[00:47:27]  Right now, witnesses are starting to feel a little more comfortable.
[00:47:31]  It's more, I say, mainstream, but it's more acceptable to be talking about these things.
[00:47:37]  I'd like to find the pilot who was flying that Harrier jet.
[00:47:42]  Duh.
[00:47:42]  You think he got film footage of it?
[00:47:45]  Yeah, I'm sure he did.
[00:47:47]  Yeah, he also got a visit.
[00:47:48]  He probably got a visit too, but he flew all around.
[00:47:51]  And I was told that because if you look at that photograph, you got that perfect diamond or disc, right?
[00:47:57]  And I was talking to Craig Lindsay, the RAF press officer, and I was like, what do those other five pictures look like?
[00:48:02]  And he goes, James, he goes, they were so shocked.
[00:48:06]  The witnesses were so scared when this thing was hovered in the air.
[00:48:09]  They would know what the hell was going on.
[00:48:12]  And they only got the courage up when the military jet came in.
[00:48:15]  And the military jet did, according to Craig Lindsay, who interviewed them and saw all the other prints, is that they took the camera up from one of the bushes and they snapped five or six pictures as the military jet did a complete pass all the way around this disc, right?
[00:48:31]  So whoever was flying that Harrier jet got a really good view.
[00:48:36]  Got the best view.
[00:48:37]  Got the best view of it.
[00:48:38]  Flew right towards it and then flew around it and then went back.
[00:48:44]  So where's that radar data?
[00:48:45]  Where's the visual like gun cam footage?
[00:48:47]  Like, whoa.
[00:48:48]  This case is just getting going here.
[00:48:50]  That's some Independence Day stuff right there.
[00:48:52]  So let's just say that he was in his 30s because most fighter pilots are pretty young, right?
[00:48:56]  So let's just say he was in his, let's say he was 35.
[00:48:59]  Yeah.
[00:48:59]  Okay.
[00:49:00]  So what was that?
[00:49:01]  How long was that case?
[00:49:02]  34 years?
[00:49:04]  He'd be 65.
[00:49:05]  Yeah.
[00:49:06]  So let's say he's probably between 65 and 75.
[00:49:10]  That's a pretty comfortable.
[00:49:11]  So you know what?

=== The Harrier Jet Best View (06:09) ===

[00:49:13]  And they're usually pretty healthy.
[00:49:14]  Still time.
[00:49:15]  So he's probably out there.
[00:49:17]  And if you are out there, And you're listening to this, please get in touch with us.
[00:49:21]  You know, that's something I'm learning from you as a content creator, as a pseudo documentarian myself.
[00:49:30]  I'm learning the tenacity that you have, it's just really important for this field because, as someone who's used to in the past really churning out content and sort of like the second I press upload is the second I need to forget about it and focus on the next thing, right?
[00:49:45]  So I have to reprogram myself to stick with something and not just go with the immediate thing and post it.
[00:49:52]  I got to.
[00:49:53]  Sit on things.
[00:49:54]  I got to do my homework and go there and take my time.
[00:49:57]  And I want to thank you for teaching me that.
[00:49:59]  That's a really, really valuable lesson for me.
[00:50:01]  And sometimes it's okay.
[00:50:03]  Like when I did Out of the Blue, and I don't know if I told you this, but I was like, you know, when is a project ever done?
[00:50:11]  Right?
[00:50:11]  Usually you're out of money, you're out of steam, you're exhausted.
[00:50:15]  Usually it's out of money.
[00:50:17]  But I remember we were probably four years in out of the blue, maybe three, had a screening.
[00:50:24]  I'm watching people fidget.
[00:50:26]  That's bad.
[00:50:26]  Look at their watches, checking out their phones, tying their shoelaces, you know.
[00:50:32]  Screening.
[00:50:32]  Oh, yeah.
[00:50:33]  Not good.
[00:50:34]  And they all left and they kind of patted me on the shoulder.
[00:50:36]  Hey, nice job, James.
[00:50:37]  I knew what, yeah, the film was not ready for prime time.
[00:50:40]  So I went back at it for like, and I remember I fell into this really dark place.
[00:50:44]  Oh, like it's so depressed.
[00:50:47]  Like, oh, you feel like you're just climbing this mountain.
[00:50:49]  It's never going to end.
[00:50:50]  Like, how can I?
[00:50:51]  I'm in a ring with a monster and I'm trying to figure out how to win the next round, right?
[00:50:57]  And I sank down in the couch after the screening.
[00:50:59]  I got really depressed and I slept with my clothes on at my dad's house.
[00:51:03]  Then I woke up the next morning and I was like, pick myself up at the bootstraps.
[00:51:06]  I'm going back at it.
[00:51:07]  So I spent two more years on Out of the Blue.
[00:51:10]  It was a lot better.
[00:51:10]  I got it to a much better place, but it still wasn't quite where I wanted it to be.
[00:51:14]  But I remember my partner, Boris, And his wife is yelling at me that he was in a fetal position crying because we were pushing each other so hard and we were broke.
[00:51:23]  And she's like, You're killing my husband.
[00:51:25]  You know, she was really angry with me, looking at me like I'm the devil.
[00:51:29]  You know, so I was like, Okay, I better, better release this movie.
[00:51:31]  But I released it in the back of my mind.
[00:51:33]  I was like, That movie's not done.
[00:51:35]  And then I got a letter in the mail three years later.
[00:51:38]  I sold it to NBC Universal and they were like, Mr. Fox, just wanted to inform you.
[00:51:41]  We're not going to, we decided not to renew our broadcast option.
[00:51:44]  I was like, Yes, I own it again.
[00:51:46]  So I got it back and then I went back at it for two more years.
[00:51:49]  Like that.
[00:51:50]  Wow.
[00:51:50]  And then it still wasn't quite what I wanted it to be, but it was a lot better.
[00:51:54]  And then I tried it again with I Know What I Saw.
[00:51:57]  Sold I Know What I Saw.
[00:51:58]  It was a two hour special to the History Channel.
[00:52:01]  Again, broke, broke.
[00:52:03]  So broke.
[00:52:04]  I could barely even afford to pay attention when I finished that movie.
[00:52:06]  I was so broke.
[00:52:07]  And I remember I was, my credit card was maxed out and I had a, I had a, I had like a $70,000 credit card debt.
[00:52:14]  True.
[00:52:14]  And I was so, like, barely making that monthly payment, right?
[00:52:18]  And I mean, barely making it by the skin of my teeth.
[00:52:20]  And I was like, Two days late, and they jacked up my interest rate to double or triple, whatever it was.
[00:52:26]  And I called the company and I was like, You guys, what are you doing?
[00:52:30]  Are you trying to force me to like go belly up on this?
[00:52:33]  I was like, Default on my loan.
[00:52:34]  I said, I was barely making the payment at that rate.
[00:52:38]  And now you just tripled, you know.
[00:52:39]  So this was all going on.
[00:52:40]  Kaking you while you're down.
[00:52:42]  Yeah.
[00:52:43]  Anyway, so I got the, I got, yeah, kicking you while you're down.
[00:52:45]  And like, so I got, I got the, I know what I saw sold.
[00:52:48]  In the back of my mind, I was like, It's not what I wanted it to do, you know.
[00:52:51]  You've always had that.
[00:52:52]  You've always had that dumbness.
[00:52:53]  I was not satisfied.
[00:52:55]  It just wasn't like, You know, you have a concept in your mind as something that you do, whether it's a painting or maybe a studio space or maybe just whatever project it is.
[00:53:05]  You know, when you have that, you have the vision, the vision, you know, and you just set out to make that happen.
[00:53:11]  To and sometimes it aligns with the vision, sometimes it doesn't.
[00:53:13]  In my case, it kept not.
[00:53:16]  And I was like, God, I went through my 20s and I went through my 30s and I hit 40.
[00:53:21]  And I was like, oh my gosh.
[00:53:23]  I took a couple of years off UFOs and I did a film on the BP oil spill.
[00:53:27]  I just stepped, you know, I just needed a break.
[00:53:29]  And then when I hit 43, I was like, all right, I'm going at it one more time.
[00:53:33]  And that's when I did The Phenomenon.
[00:53:34]  It took me eight years.
[00:53:35]  And that is like arguably eight years, possibly the best documentary out there on the subject.
[00:53:41]  So it's, I mean, that's, and you know, and that, that was the first time I went, did it.
[00:53:48]  This is it.
[00:53:49]  Yes.
[00:53:49]  You could feel it though, watching that.
[00:53:51]  Like, I mean, it's perfect.
[00:53:52]  I didn't watch it for two years after I finished it.
[00:53:55]  Because you were just sick of seeing the footage.
[00:53:57]  Excuse me.
[00:53:58]  It was so traumatic getting that film across the finishing line.
[00:54:01]  And then, right when I finished it, we were going to have, for the first time in my whole career, we're going to have a theatrical release and the ink had barely dried in the contracts.
[00:54:09]  And then COVID's coming, right?
[00:54:11]  Right, yeah.
[00:54:12]  And I was like, no, like, no.
[00:54:17]  And I remember my sister called me and she goes, she was.
[00:54:19]  Kind of crying.
[00:54:20]  We both were kind of crying.
[00:54:21]  And she's like, it took a global pandemic to stop you.
[00:54:25]  Yeah.
[00:54:25]  Anyway, sorry, I'm rambling.
[00:54:29]  No, I mean, it's fascinating to hear because, you know, we don't get to hear this normally.
[00:54:34]  We get to see the final product.
[00:54:35]  And as someone who's creative, my final product is constantly out there and people don't really understand the work that goes behind it.
[00:54:41]  And not only the work, the emotional sort of ups and downs that you have to put aside to get the work done.
[00:54:50]  And that weighs heavy when the project.
[00:54:52]  Ends because now you have to deal with all that compartmentalized baggage that you've been putting away, and it just hits you like a truck.
[00:55:00]  And then you got to somehow pick yourself up and do it again.
[00:55:03]  And so, as a creator myself, it's commendable.
[00:55:06]  I take my hat off to you.
[00:55:08]  It's definitely something that isn't easy.
[00:55:10]  And on top of traveling and everything else, there's just so many factors that go into making such a monumental project.
[00:55:20]  And it doesn't go unnoticed.

=== Protecting the Source Account (14:53) ===

[00:55:22]  I want you to know that.
[00:55:22]  My son, who you've met.
[00:55:25]  Yeah.
[00:55:25]  He, he, when, cause, you know, he was born when he was, when, when all he was born, I didn't even have a bank account because I know what I saw.
[00:55:35]  Some tax issues happened.
[00:55:36]  It was horrible and I fought it.
[00:55:38]  But, long story short, I remember like I got a check for like 1500 bucks and I was so sucked.
[00:55:44]  I put it in the account and I went to go get the money the next day to pay off my phone bill and all this other stuff.
[00:55:48]  And, and the woman, the teller was like, uh, sir, you're, you're zero balance.
[00:55:51]  I said, zero balance.
[00:55:53]  I said, I made a deposit last night.
[00:55:55]  I got to be at zero balance.
[00:55:56]  She's like, well, you made a withdrawal.
[00:55:57]  I said, I didn't make a withdrawal.
[00:56:00]  Anyway.
[00:56:00]  So, there's like a three year period where I didn't have a bank account.
[00:56:04]  I remember I was making the phenomenon and people were like, dude, you can't make a move.
[00:56:07]  You don't have a bank account.
[00:56:08]  We're talking about a bank account.
[00:56:10]  That's insane.
[00:56:11]  How do you not have a bank account?
[00:56:12]  What is wrong with you?
[00:56:14]  I was like, look, man, it is what it is right now.
[00:56:16]  I'm just getting through it.
[00:56:17]  I'm doing the best I can.
[00:56:18]  I've relaxed.
[00:56:19]  I swear to God.
[00:56:19]  That's 10 years ago?
[00:56:20]  A little over 10 years ago.
[00:56:23]  Oh, my gosh.
[00:56:24]  Isn't that crazy?
[00:56:26]  Debt is crazy.
[00:56:27]  Yeah.
[00:56:28]  All right.
[00:56:28]  I got a few other questions here I want to get to before we get into some like.
[00:56:33]  My favorite color is blue.
[00:56:35]  Okay.
[00:56:35]  Dark midnight blue.
[00:56:39]  I wanted to talk about a little bit about.
[00:56:43]  We touched on this earlier, and you touched on it with the men in black how you were kind of uncomfortable with the term men in black because it's a little cliche.
[00:56:51]  Aside from that, what is one sort of mischaracterization or one misconception within the public's view of the phenomenon or of UFOs that you would like to erase?
[00:57:04]  That if you could think of it, like I just erase it from people's mind.
[00:57:07]  Couple.
[00:57:07]  One run off the top.
[00:57:10]  Why does it always happen in the desert in the United States?
[00:57:15]  Let's see.
[00:57:16]  I cover a case in Australia, Africa, South America, Chile, like England, Russia, Russia, China, like, you know, Canada, Alaska, across the United States.
[00:57:31]  This is a global phenomenon.
[00:57:33]  That's one thing for sure.
[00:57:35]  Second thing is people think that the witnesses are just looking for a limelight.
[00:57:42]  If people had a Behind the scenes, look at what it took for us to make a moment of contact and to get those people to come forward.
[00:57:49]  We worked on them for years, years just to find them.
[00:57:54]  And then we'd meet with them and they're like, How did you find me?
[00:57:58]  How did you know I was involved with that?
[00:57:59]  I'm now don't care how much money you offer me.
[00:58:01]  It's never going to happen.
[00:58:03]  I'm never coming forward.
[00:58:04]  And we'd work on them and work on them and work on them and work on them.
[00:58:08]  And then some of them were like, You know, at the end of the day, it was like, We're going to get an anonymous, you know, get them to appear anonymously.
[00:58:14]  It's, The better the witness, the more compelling the case, the less likely the people are ever going to want to come forward.
[00:58:19]  That's just a fact.
[00:58:21]  And that's me in the field.
[00:58:22]  Wow.
[00:58:23]  Is there any, has there ever been a moment where it's just like slipped out of your hands?
[00:58:28]  Where something that you were so close and it was like a big thing.
[00:58:32]  Yeah.
[00:58:32]  What's one of those things that like slipped out of your hands?
[00:58:34]  The footage, the alien footage of Virginia?
[00:58:37]  Yes.
[00:58:37]  You were that close?
[00:58:38]  We had a hard drive in our hands.
[00:58:39]  You had a hard drive in your hands?
[00:58:41]  We had a hard drive in our hands.
[00:58:42]  Are you kidding me?
[00:58:42]  Not kidding you.
[00:58:43]  But you didn't see the footage?
[00:58:44]  Nope.
[00:58:45]  No.
[00:58:46]  You had the footage in your hand.
[00:58:48]  See how I can talk about this.
[00:58:49]  Holy.
[00:58:50]  Well, okay.
[00:58:51]  So I just want to talk about this without revealing the details because we're going back.
[00:59:00]  We found, we talked to a number of doctors face to face that saw the footage.
[00:59:14]  Okay.
[00:59:15]  And not only saw the footage, but knew we were friends with the individual who took the footage.
[00:59:20]  And this is just one in particular.
[00:59:22]  That was on the medical side.
[00:59:23]  That was on the doctor's side in the humanitas hospital.
[00:59:30]  So we located, we went, excuse me, we went after the individual.
[00:59:38]  Unfortunately, the individual had died horseback riding or something.
[00:59:43]  I don't know, something happened.
[00:59:44]  So we went to the individual, this was all spanning over probably a two year period, maybe a little longer.
[00:59:49]  We went to the individual's house and talked to the wife.
[00:59:54]  And the wife was somewhat dismissive initially, but then we went back with testimony from the other fellow doctors, talked about it.
[01:00:03]  And the wife was talking to our um, my partner Marco Leal, like, like the room was bugged, and was like, 'I don't know, I don't know what you're talking about, I don't know what you mean,' and reaches down and grabs a hard drive.
[01:00:23]  I don't know, I'm not sure what.
[01:00:25]  No, there's nothing here.
[01:00:28]  Give us the hard drive to Marco.
[01:00:29]  Now he's got the hard drive.
[01:00:31]  What shape was it?
[01:00:32]  Is it USB?
[01:00:33]  It's just an old, like probably a 20 year old hard drive, maybe 15, 20 year old hard drive.
[01:00:39]  And, but so we were like, oh my God.
[01:00:42]  So, you know, we're hours outside of Sao Paulo and he's driving around.
[01:00:48]  And I'm like, dude, you need to get to someplace secure and back that thing up immediately.
[01:00:53]  And I was like, you're driving around for four days in the area.
[01:00:56]  No, like this could be the biggest.
[01:00:59]  So this is happening.
[01:01:00]  And so it's encrypted, and we're trying to get it like nobody could do it in that area.
[01:01:05]  So we took the drive back to Sao Paulo, and we're having like high level technicians costing a lot of money, like the salaries for a lot of people for a whole month just to get, do a deep dive in the drive.
[01:01:16]  And we were pretty convinced that we had it because we knew, we knew beyond a shadow of doubt that this guy is the one that shot it, according to all the other doctors that we talked to, and all the other doctors that knew him, and all the other doctors that saw it, that saw the footage and described it.
[01:01:33]  And so we were overwhelmed with excitement, as you can imagine.
[01:01:39]  Got the whole thing encrypted and it wasn't there.
[01:01:42]  So, but that let, we thought we had it.
[01:01:46]  We really did.
[01:01:46]  We were, you know, so, but that led to other.
[01:01:50]  There are other individuals that we need to go see that live a couple of hours away from where that happened.
[01:02:00]  And so that were quite convinced.
[01:02:01]  So we know, we know, according to all these doctors, who shot it, who had it for sure.
[01:02:08]  And then he had a heart attack and died suddenly.
[01:02:10]  So that footage is somewhere.
[01:02:12]  He didn't just throw that away.
[01:02:13]  And we knew what format that footage, you know, anyway.
[01:02:17]  So that was.
[01:02:17]  Then there was another individual, and I can't release the name and the look, but it's an official individual who had a photograph, and I had him describe to me what was seen in the photograph.
[01:02:28]  And this is an official.
[01:02:29]  This is not like a civilian.
[01:02:30]  This is a.
[01:02:31]  And we talked to this individual, and it was like one of the aliens was alive, one was dead, and there were a number of firemen.
[01:02:40]  And firemen, as well as police officers, are connected to the military in Brazil.
[01:02:45]  So if you're working for the fire department, you're actually a military personnel.
[01:02:49]  Right.
[01:02:49]  And the same thing for radar control officers.
[01:02:53]  You're still military.
[01:02:54]  It's always military.
[01:02:55]  Fireman, military.
[01:02:56]  Police officer, military.
[01:02:58]  And so we interviewed this individual and we talked to two people that he was friends with that he showed the photograph to.
[01:03:07]  And then I spoke to the individual who allegedly has the photograph and got this individual to describe what the photograph showed.
[01:03:17]  And we thought we were going to get it that day, but we didn't.
[01:03:19]  But again, this is an ongoing thing, but it said there was one.
[01:03:22]  One dead and one alive, and that there were a number of firemen in the photograph posing with where they were in the background of the.
[01:03:30]  Yes.
[01:03:30]  Yeah.
[01:03:31]  Which aligns with some of the research that we'd done in terms of like how, because there were a couple of captures.
[01:03:39]  There was probably more than that, maybe five or six, but we only really have two good solid leads on maybe two or three of the captures.
[01:03:47]  One was with military police officer Marco Chirisi and the guy driving the car.
[01:03:52]  Eric Lopes.
[01:03:53]  And then there was another capture from the fire department with a net.
[01:03:57]  With like the.
[01:03:58]  Yeah, like a new song on it.
[01:03:59]  Catching wild animals.
[01:04:00]  Yeah, they did that.
[01:04:01]  And we talked to one of the individuals that was involved with that operation.
[01:04:05]  And then there was another one that might have been shot.
[01:04:07]  Because we heard people in the town describe a gunshot go off and then something was carried out of the forested area.
[01:04:15]  So that was like three.
[01:04:17]  I think we reported on two.
[01:04:18]  Maybe we reported on three in Moment of Contact.
[01:04:21]  But there was some evidence from some of the research we talked to.
[01:04:24]  Indirectly, this guy, Uber Jad Rodriguez and Pekaccini, that there were up to five entities that were captured.
[01:04:31]  But again, I don't know.
[01:04:33]  We only had a solid lead on two or three of them.
[01:04:35]  At what point did one of them was alive?
[01:04:37]  Yeah, that's, I mean, that is disturbing.
[01:04:41]  At what point in the investigation or in your documentary did you, were you close to this information?
[01:04:48]  Was this towards the end or was this like in the heart of it?
[01:04:51]  Closer to the end.
[01:04:52]  So back in like 2000, 13, and I can talk openly about this now, and I have talked about it in the past, but this is like, you know, a lot of people wonder, like, what keeps you going on a 12, 13, 14 year investigation on something, right?
[01:05:05]  Because let's just face it, whether you believe a UFO crash and live aliens were captured, I totally understand your ambivalence to believe that because it's a big story.
[01:05:14]  And, you know, but I ask your audience if you can suspend judgment, imagine for a moment that it did happen.
[01:05:21]  You know, it's a very significant event, right?
[01:05:23]  So, but sometimes you doubt yourself, like, Particularly early on, like when I first heard about the case, I was like, there's no way that happened.
[01:05:29]  There's no way live aliens walked around the town of Virginia and the whole world not know it.
[01:05:33]  It's impossible.
[01:05:33]  It's impossible.
[01:05:34]  You dismissed it.
[01:05:35]  I dismissed it for 10 years.
[01:05:36]  Don't even look into it.
[01:05:36]  Being someone who's already done documentaries on UFOs, you dismissed it.
[01:05:40]  Absolutely.
[01:05:41]  Okay.
[01:05:41]  So you can understand how a skeptic might be.
[01:05:43]  Absolutely.
[01:05:44]  Yes.
[01:05:44]  Yes.
[01:05:45]  Absolutely.
[01:05:45]  So I started looking into it maybe in 2011.
[01:05:49]  And in 2013, I got an interview with Marco Leal with an Air Force general by the name of Jose Carlos Pereira.
[01:05:57]  Yeah.
[01:05:58]  Jose Carlos Pereira, Air Force Brazilian general.
[01:06:05]  Excuse me, sat down to interview, and there are a lot of cases.
[01:06:08]  There's Calaris that happened in the 70s.
[01:06:11]  There's the nights of UFOs over Brazil in 1986, massive oversight, scrambled military jets.
[01:06:17]  I had a press conference, a lot of great cases.
[01:06:20]  And he's like, I could talk about this case, that case.
[01:06:23]  You talk about Virginia, this interview is terminated, goodbye.
[01:06:27]  And I was like, What, really?
[01:06:30]  And he was very serious.
[01:06:31]  Like, you know, and I, well, I had an Air Force, Brazilian Air Force guy sitting down with us.
[01:06:35]  I wasn't going to like jeopardize.
[01:06:37]  So we didn't talk about Virginia.
[01:06:39]  And then we rolled camera for however long we interviewed, hour and a half, whatever it was.
[01:06:44]  And at the end, shut all the equipment off, all the audio.
[01:06:48]  And I walked up to him and I looked him in the eyes.
[01:06:49]  I looked into his soul and I was like, please.
[01:06:53]  And Marco was sitting there right there with me.
[01:06:55]  I said, I said, please.
[01:06:57]  I said, I promise you on my life, there was no camera audio, nothing rolling.
[01:07:02]  This is between you and me right here, right now.
[01:07:05]  Tell me about Virginia.
[01:07:07]  And I'm looking in the eyes and he's like preparing to leave.
[01:07:09]  And he's got a driver waiting for him.
[01:07:11]  And Marco's doing the same thing.
[01:07:12]  I was practically like fucking licking the guy's boots.
[01:07:15]  I mean, I'd never looked so deeply into someone's soul before.
[01:07:18]  I wanted to know so badly.
[01:07:21]  So he didn't say anything.
[01:07:22]  He didn't respond.
[01:07:23]  We followed him all the way back to the car.
[01:07:25]  Marco was right there with me.
[01:07:27]  He gets in the car.
[01:07:28]  The door's still open in the back seat.
[01:07:30]  The driver's sitting there waiting.
[01:07:31]  The engine's running.
[01:07:33]  And he looks up at Marco and I and he goes, It happened.
[01:07:37]  Closed the door and off he went.
[01:07:39]  I was like, Fuck.
[01:07:42]  Marco and I both were like, and I tell you, like that kept us going.
[01:07:49]  That was like that, it reignited our flame.
[01:07:52]  You know what I mean?
[01:07:53]  Yeah.
[01:07:53]  Why would he say that to us?
[01:07:56]  Yeah.
[01:07:56]  No reason.
[01:07:57]  No reason, man.
[01:07:58]  And then he died a couple of years later.
[01:08:00]  But that was like, you know, can I share that publicly?
[01:08:04]  And people go, yeah, sure.
[01:08:05]  Whatever.
[01:08:05]  It's just a rumor.
[01:08:06]  Yeah.
[01:08:06]  I get it.
[01:08:07]  I totally get it.
[01:08:07]  And I don't expect anyone to even believe that that happened.
[01:08:10]  But it happened to me and Marco.
[01:08:13]  And that kept us going for another 10 years.
[01:08:16]  That's one of my next questions, actually.
[01:08:19]  Have you ever come close to abandoning something and then what kept you going?
[01:08:22]  And there you go.
[01:08:23]  That is, I mean, that is like, you know, I have this question I ask to people a lot.
[01:08:30]  And I think this might be the answer to that, but I'm going to ask it anyways.
[01:08:34]  But is there a moment or, and not the first moment, but a moment where you tell yourself, this changes everything?
[01:08:46]  Yeah.
[01:08:47]  I mean, so I did this thing on Reddit recently, and it was basically the first time this woman, Andrea, put it on.
[01:08:54]  I met her at the Soul Foundation, and she's like, Hey, I run this like community thing at Reddit, and I want to do this thing.
[01:09:02]  It's never been done before.
[01:09:03]  I want to get all the various platforms and communities and Reddit to all coalesce and get together and put together this one event and be supportive.
[01:09:10]  And she did.
[01:09:12]  She goes, Can you get a couple of people that were part of the task force, part of the government investigation?
[01:09:17]  I was like, Okay.
[01:09:18]  My two primary targets were Len Val Logan and this guy, Kirk McConnell.
[01:09:24]  And Kirk McConnell investigated, never really prior.
[01:09:28]  He had 37 years of experience in the Center of Armed Services and a number of other things.
[01:09:31]  You can look him up, but he really put a laser like focus on UFOs from 2017 to 2024.
[01:09:38]  And he, I'll get to the relevance in this in a minute, he had the distinct opportunity to sit down with so called firsthand witnesses.
[01:09:48]  Now, everyone's talking about the fact they want firsthand witnesses, and I get it.
[01:09:51]  After David Grush testified under oath that we have a crash retrieval program, we got people working on technology, we got, you know, biologics, as he put it.
[01:10:00]  Everybody wants those first handers.
[01:10:01]  Well, according to McConnell, I think it was like somewhere between eight and 12 first hand people have testified, like had meetings in a skiff behind closed doors, right?
[01:10:10]  First handers, the ones that we all want to see in open congressional hands.
[01:10:15]  The ones in the program.

=== The Intensity of Firsthand Witnesses (09:48) ===

[01:10:16]  Yes.
[01:10:17]  And so, so we had this Reddit thing and They were like, okay, so James, you're going to be on and you're going to have Len Val Logan and then we have Kirk McConnell.
[01:10:26]  Kirk was a very busy guy.
[01:10:27]  We're probably going to just focus primarily on him for the first hour and then we'll switch over to Len Val Logan.
[01:10:31]  If Len Val Logan wants to stick with you for the second hour, great.
[01:10:35]  You know, but we're going to do like, you know, Kirk, then we're going to do Len Val Logan and then we're going to do, you know, you.
[01:10:40]  And I was like, I'm far less important.
[01:10:41]  These guys should.
[01:10:42]  So anyway, so we start talking and there were people asking him questions.
[01:10:48]  And then I had this little chat where they said, if something pops up during this three hour thing, you can.
[01:10:54]  You can message us.
[01:10:55]  And so I said, I got a question because I hadn't thought about this one.
[01:11:00]  And I said, uh, you claim that you were sitting in a skiff with members of the Senate.
[01:11:10]  I'm guessing Rubio and Rounds and Schumer pretty.
[01:11:15]  And that you guys met with firsthand witnesses, people that are directly involved with the program, that are working on alien technology, shit like that.
[01:11:23]  Right.
[01:11:24]  I said, can you, can you describe what it was like to sit in that room and like, Like, listen to someone that you believe was directly working on alien technology.
[01:11:35]  Can you put me in that fucking room, please?
[01:11:39]  Describe the atmosphere.
[01:11:40]  What was it like?
[01:11:41]  Did you look in the eyes of the senators?
[01:11:45]  And he was like, whoa, you know?
[01:11:47]  And then he put us in that room.
[01:11:49]  It's all on tape.
[01:11:50]  You can look it up on the Reddit.
[01:11:51]  I've actually put it on my ex as well.
[01:11:54]  I highly advise.
[01:11:56]  I've seen, I'll put a clip of it here, but go watch this in its entirety.
[01:12:00]  At James C. Fox.
[01:12:02]  On X, formerly known as Twitter, and go watch that damn thing because my God, that's one of those moments.
[01:12:07]  Can you put us in the room and tell us what the atmosphere felt like?
[01:12:10]  It's a very tough thing to get your mind around and to be confronted with it, you know, coming from another person whom you find credible based on their credentials and their clearances and their background and all that.
[01:12:30]  You know, it certainly.
[01:12:34]  It makes it hard to go to sleep at night, you know, for a good while.
[01:12:40]  What did the senators do?
[01:12:42]  Did they have a sort of slack jawed appearance as well, or was it just.
[01:12:45]  No, I mean, I don't think any of us fell on the floor, you know, in anguish or anything, but it was very serious, very serious, very sobering.
[01:13:02]  And there was, you know, just.
[01:13:07]  Wrapped attention to what was being said and trying to absorb it.
[01:13:13]  But yeah, you know, they would take this information on board.
[01:13:24]  Did you get the impression that these individuals were scared?
[01:13:30]  Well, it varied.
[01:13:34]  Certainly, in some instances, I mean, some people, there was real fear, yes.
[01:13:41]  There was real anxiety about speaking out what they had to say.
[01:13:48]  Yeah.
[01:13:48]  For their career.
[01:13:51]  It's very disturbing to them.
[01:13:58]  Yeah.
[01:13:58]  Very disturbing to them.
[01:13:59]  Yeah.
[01:14:00]  And I asked him, what was it like?
[01:14:03]  Like, like afterwards, he was like, I had a hard time coming home and like processing, wrapping my mind around, oh my God, this changes everything.
[01:14:13]  And when I was investigating the Varginia case, I would, I swear to God, I looked, I'm 99.9% sure that I looked directly into the eyes of a gentleman who drove an alien around.
[01:14:26]  I'm like, how do you process that?
[01:14:28]  I was looking to his eyes for an hour and a half.
[01:14:31]  Okay.
[01:14:32]  I could see the intensity of it all.
[01:14:34]  We tracked him down.
[01:14:36]  And this individual had given an on camera statement right after it happened with a number of firsthand people that were involved with the incident as an insurance policy that if anything happened to them, and all the researchers within the area knew there were 15, 20 copies of those tapes made back in 1996, that if anything happened to those witnesses, that was going to be released to the general public.
[01:14:56]  That was their insurance policy.
[01:14:57]  So we'd seen that footage.
[01:14:59]  I couldn't use it, but I'd seen it and it's wow.
[01:15:02]  But my point is this Kirk was describing the impact that that had on him.
[01:15:08]  You know, that reality, it's like a distortion of reality.
[01:15:12]  Like everything is not as it seems, right?
[01:15:15]  This changes everything.
[01:15:16]  And when I would come home from a month at a time investigating, and I'm knocking on doors, meeting with witnesses, doctors, military guys, firemen, like people that drove the, I mean, we were digging into this damn case.
[01:15:30]  I wanted to know so bad.
[01:15:32]  And I'd come home and I couldn't really talk about it because I started, like, as soon as I started talking about it, people just look at me like I'd lost my mind, right?
[01:15:45]  And I remember the last time I went, I got back and I had CNN at my house with Leslie Kane.
[01:15:52]  And I'd just gotten back on my last trip.
[01:15:53]  I'd shot the whole movie.
[01:15:55]  Excuse me.
[01:15:56]  And they were like, oh my God, you just got back from Brazil.
[01:16:00]  It's incredible.
[01:16:01]  Oh my gosh.
[01:16:01]  Tell us about your trip.
[01:16:03]  What happened?
[01:16:04]  I love the smoothies and the coffees over there.
[01:16:06]  It's an incredible place, isn't it?
[01:16:08]  Did you go to Rio?
[01:16:10]  What about that part of Chile, those islands off the coast?
[01:16:13]  And I'm sitting there going, I think I looked into the face of a guy who drove an alien around and a UFO crashed and live aliens were walking through the town and they were captured.
[01:16:22]  And the Americans came in and got this stuff.
[01:16:25]  And I was like, Yeah, no, I'm not going to talk about any of it.
[01:16:29]  They were like, You have the perfect opportunity.
[01:16:32]  We're doing a profile on you.
[01:16:34]  No, no, we'll wait till the movie comes out.
[01:16:36]  Good call.
[01:16:37]  Because you're going to look at me like I need to up the dosage of whatever medication I'm not on right now.
[01:16:42]  That's seriously like.
[01:16:44]  But I guess what I'm trying to get at is that you come back from these experiences and your reality is so distorted.
[01:16:52]  You're like, it's a post traumatic experience.
[01:16:54]  It's a post traumatic experience.
[01:16:55]  And Kirk had the same damn thing.
[01:16:57]  Wow.
[01:16:58]  Kirk and I had talked about that comparing notes.
[01:17:00]  Like he would come back, he would try to tell certain things to his wife.
[01:17:02]  And his wife's looking at him like, honey, have you lost it?
[01:17:05]  Are you okay?
[01:17:06]  Like, you know?
[01:17:07]  That's how profound.
[01:17:09]  Experiences are because not only do they affect experiencers, they affect those who talk to experiencers.
[01:17:17]  That's how profound that is.
[01:17:20]  I mean, that's incredible that it had that effect on a secondhand witness, right?
[01:17:25]  Oh, yeah.
[01:17:25]  This is insane.
[01:17:26]  This is, I mean, and I'm getting that feeling just talking to you.
[01:17:32]  You know, like you're, I'm, I'm three people removed from this guy now, but I'm still enthralled and I'm like, I'm projecting my own self there and how would I feel and, What would I do?
[01:17:43]  And how do I feel about this now?
[01:17:44]  And it's prof, it's yeah, it's seismic.
[01:17:48]  It's, you know, I remember talking to various composers for.
[01:17:57]  I go to great lengths to put.
[01:18:01]  I don't do canned music for my films.
[01:18:03]  I spent a lot on the score.
[01:18:06]  And I remember describing to a couple of different composers, Mateo and this guy, Chris Hoag, he's an amazing guy.
[01:18:15]  I say, just imagine you guys.
[01:18:20]  Imagine taking the cloth of reality and just tearing it right apart, right?
[01:18:24]  Like, I want it, I want the audience to be where that individual was when they made face to face contact allegedly with this alien creature, right?
[01:18:36]  I want it to be the most unfamiliar feeling of intensity and mystery and intrigue.
[01:18:43]  And do you know what I mean?
[01:18:45]  And alien.
[01:18:45]  And I say alien as sort of outside of our world in the sense that it's so foreign, you don't even know what.
[01:18:53]  You're looking at, right?
[01:18:54]  Like, you don't even know how to process what you're looking at.
[01:18:57]  Put me there.
[01:18:59]  Put me there with that score.
[01:19:01]  In particular, I remember when the children had face to face contact, you know, in Rua, Zimbabwe, or when the, again, the children had face to face contact.
[01:19:13]  Like, when you made eye contact with that creature, God damn it, I want to be there.
[01:19:17]  Yeah.
[01:19:17]  What did it feel like?
[01:19:18]  What kind of communication took place?
[01:19:20]  Did communication take place?
[01:19:21]  Did time stop?
[01:19:22]  Mm hmm.
[01:19:23]  Could you hear anything?
[01:19:24]  And you want the audience to feel that?
[01:19:25]  Yes, I want the audience to feel that.
[01:19:28]  I want to feel that.
[01:19:30]  I want to be there.
[01:19:31]  That experience is so profound, you know?
[01:19:35]  So I always remember I like to take reality and just rip it all apart.
[01:19:40]  And I want to feel so, you know, just recreate that if you can.
[01:19:46]  And it has to be with very unfamiliar sounds and things that just don't make any sense.
[01:19:53]  Because that's, you know, love that.
[01:19:56]  Right?
[01:19:56]  Yeah, it's unsettling.
[01:19:57]  Yeah.
[01:19:58]  Is it unfamiliar?
[01:19:59]  Yes.
[01:20:00]  Yeah.
[01:20:03]  Sorry, ma'am.

=== Leaving Reasons Behind (07:25) ===

[01:20:04]  And we, you know, we talked about this a little bit, but there had to have been times where there was information that was just maybe too controversial or risky to include.
[01:20:16]  Did you ever encounter any of those, any of such periods of conversation that you were just like, this is, I can't, like, or.
[01:20:25]  Yeah.
[01:20:25]  Yeah.
[01:20:26]  Oh, yeah.
[01:20:27]  Yeah.
[01:20:30]  How about in the program?
[01:20:34]  Was there anything there that you had to leave out?
[01:20:37]  Oh, lots of stuff I had to leave out.
[01:20:40]  Like, I mean, for reasons of notifications.
[01:20:43]  Yeah.
[01:20:43]  Yeah.
[01:20:44]  Really?
[01:20:45]  Oh, yeah.
[01:20:45]  Yeah.
[01:20:45]  Everybody, like, particularly the Intel folks, had to approve everything.
[01:20:50]  Wow.
[01:20:50]  And some even had to get, I'm trying to remember the acronym, DOPSER, but it's basically a pre publication approval.
[01:20:58]  And I believe that everybody had to do that.
[01:21:01]  A lot of the people that I interviewed had to do that.
[01:21:04]  And in one instance, I had to end up at the last minute, I had to delete a certain word that was mentioned in the film.
[01:21:10]  And then you'll see it beeped out.
[01:21:13]  And there's also controversy.
[01:21:16]  Oh, I've.
[01:21:17]  Yeah.
[01:21:17]  I mean, we know what the word is, though.
[01:21:18]  Yeah.
[01:21:19]  Yeah.
[01:21:19]  It's Area 51.
[01:21:20]  Yeah.
[01:21:20]  But it had to be bleeped out.
[01:21:22]  I had to do that.
[01:21:23]  That's so strange.
[01:21:23]  Yeah.
[01:21:24]  Well, that's, I mean, that's a good compromise, though.
[01:21:26]  Yeah.
[01:21:27]  Like, whether you're like, just bleep it out, you're like, but you don't even, but you can see him saying Area 50.
[01:21:31]  Yeah.
[01:21:31]  Pretty much like, huh, I wonder what he's talking about.
[01:21:34]  Yeah.
[01:21:35]  I don't even read lips.
[01:21:35]  And I was like, I don't know.
[01:21:37]  I know exactly what he.
[01:21:38]  Oh my God.
[01:21:39]  And you just lay the image of the Google Maps right over it.
[01:21:41]  I'm like, oh, that's cute.
[01:21:42]  That's cute that they asked him to.
[01:21:44]  So funny.
[01:21:45]  Yeah, interesting.
[01:21:46]  But there have been times where, like, has it ever bummed you out where you're like, really?
[01:21:51]  So I just got some information on crash retrieval stuff recently that was like, wow.
[01:21:56]  And so I asked this individual that I trusted, and I went after this individual.
[01:22:04]  This individual did not come to me.
[01:22:05]  I'd known about this individual, and I was.
[01:22:07]  For a long time.
[01:22:09]  No, And then finally we got, you know, and this individual shared some fucking wow stuff with me.
[01:22:16]  So I said, Hey, I'm about to do this whole circuit of interviews.
[01:22:21]  Every time my films come out, I'll go the rounds and do the podcast and the radio interviews.
[01:22:26]  Obviously, spread the word for my movie.
[01:22:28]  Can I just say I heard it somewhere?
[01:22:30]  No, no, no, no.
[01:22:31]  Not even.
[01:22:32]  No, not even anecdotal.
[01:22:33]  Nope.
[01:22:34]  Very adamant about that.
[01:22:35]  No, they'll know.
[01:22:37]  They'll know it's him.
[01:22:37]  Yes.
[01:22:38]  Whoa, or her, or her.
[01:22:40]  I'm trying, I don't know, it's them.
[01:22:43]  Whoa, yeah, isn't that funny?
[01:22:48]  Yeah, it's so funny too because, like, that's specific, yeah.
[01:22:52]  So, that's a really unknown piece of information, yeah.
[01:22:56]  Date, location, I see it.
[01:22:58]  It's not like a broad sort of like, oh, we put it up on this type of trailer.
[01:23:02]  It's very specific, it is, yeah, very specific with the evidence, with the bodies, the craft.
[01:23:09]  I mean, whoa, yes, and it really jarred me.
[01:23:11]  Like, I'd seen this.
[01:23:13]  And, you know, I'm very open and I do documentaries.
[01:23:19]  And I mean, I'm on this personal journey where I'm just really curious and I keep wanting to get to the bottom of it.
[01:23:24]  And the more I dig, the more crazy it all kind of gets.
[01:23:28]  I feel like, you know, I've been at it for 30 years now and I feel like almost dumber than I was 30 years ago in the sense that I have more questions today than I've ever had, right?
[01:23:38]  That makes you wise, I think.
[01:23:40]  And I'm sitting there going, what the hell is going on?
[01:23:42]  And the one thing that I've really learned.
[01:23:48]  Just because something sounds really outlandish and really unbelievable, don't have that knee jerk response of just quick dismissal because I've had it my whole career.
[01:23:58]  Rua Zimbabwe.
[01:23:59]  I heard about Rua Zimbabwe through Steven Spielberg.
[01:24:05]  Right.
[01:24:06]  Because I was making my first doc in the 90s, UFOs 50 Years of Denial.
[01:24:12]  And we had a mutual friend, this woman, Janet Yang.
[01:24:15]  And I was just naive enough to think I was in my 20s, like, I'll get it.
[01:24:18]  I'm making a documentary on UFOs.
[01:24:19]  Of course, Spielberg's going to give me an interview.
[01:24:21]  So I went through Janet Yang and she goes back.
[01:24:25]  She goes, Well, yeah, no, he's not going to meet with you.
[01:24:27]  But he said, Since you're doing a doc on UFOs, you should really look into this landing that happened in Africa at the school.
[01:24:32]  Blah, And I was like, A landing happened at a school in broad daylight and the aliens got out of their little spaceships and talked to the kids, you know?
[01:24:41]  Sure.
[01:24:43]  And I didn't even look in, I didn't spend one second looking into it.
[01:24:47]  Can you believe that?
[01:24:49]  Wow.
[01:24:49]  And then same thing with Virginia.
[01:24:53]  I'd heard about Virginia.
[01:24:54]  Well, the first time I heard about Virginia, I was mapping out out of the blue.
[01:25:00]  And I had this partner, Tim Coleman, British guy, very smart.
[01:25:05]  And Tim's like, I was like, Bentwaters, let's look into the March 13th Phoenix Lights.
[01:25:13]  Let's look into these other various cases.
[01:25:17]  Um, Robertson panel 52 Capital, and then he goes, Oh, mate, this is absolutely amazing crash case that took place in Brazil.
[01:25:27]  I don't think he used the word Virginia that was a Brazil, and these bloody aliens are walking around in the town.
[01:25:33]  I looked at them like, and I thought to myself, I picked the wrong partner.
[01:25:37]  Oh, no, like this guy, this guy's a freak, he's lost his marbles, he's lost his marbles.
[01:25:42]  Like, what was I thinking?
[01:25:43]  Like, he came across as really grounded, pragmatic, intelligent, and yet.
[01:25:47]  And I was, and I had a really hard time, like even keeping him as a partner because I was so concerned about his mental state of health.
[01:25:54]  Like that he wanted me to actually go investigate a case where live aliens are walked to the, like this guy's clearly lost his mind.
[01:26:00]  He's gone out way on the deep end.
[01:26:02]  Didn't look into that case for at least 10 years.
[01:26:05]  And then I remember the next time I heard about Virginia was 2011.
[01:26:09]  So that would have been at least 11 years later, probably 12.
[01:26:16]  But, and it was a guy, Jeff Sagansky, and you can look him up.
[01:26:20]  Very high up in the food chain in the entertainment industry, like former head of Sony.
[01:26:25]  And he's always been extremely helpful to me over the years.
[01:26:29]  And there's a funny connection about that, which I could talk about in a minute.
[01:26:33]  But he's like, I was going to Brazil.
[01:26:35]  I got invited to go speak in Brazil at a conference.
[01:26:38]  And he goes, Oh, James, you're going to Brazil.
[01:26:40]  Fantastic.
[01:26:41]  You look into the Virginia case.
[01:26:42]  I was like, The what?
[01:26:44]  The what case?
[01:26:45]  Don't you know, with the UFO crash and the live aliens?
[01:26:47]  I was like, Oh, God, not this again.
[01:26:49]  So I told Jeff, I said, I had a lot of respect for him and he was very helpful for me.
[01:26:53]  And I wasn't going to like burn that bridge, but I was like, sure, Jeff, yeah, I'll definitely look into that while I'm over there.
[01:26:59]  Yeah, sure, click.
[01:27:00]  Yeah, that ain't going to happen.
[01:27:01]  And then I got to Brazil and then I ended up meeting some witnesses, whatever.
[01:27:05]  What was the guy?
[01:27:06]  So I asked Jeff one time, this is interesting, and you're going to have to help me get the name of this guy because I'm trying to remember.
[01:27:13]  He was in Smoking the Bandit.
[01:27:15]  He was the pool shark that played Paul Newman.
[01:27:19]  Yeah.
[01:27:19]  You know, the guy I'm talking about, come on, I know, right?
[01:27:27]  So, famous.

=== The Stepenville Tea Incident (15:10) ===

[01:27:29]  Very famous.
[01:27:29]  Yeah.
[01:27:29]  Everyone knows, and he'll come to us in a second.
[01:27:32]  But he worked on a movie with him way back in the day.
[01:27:35]  And he apparently pulled Jeff aside and said, Jackie Gleason.
[01:27:39]  Jackie Gleason.
[01:27:40]  And Jackie Gleason said to Jeff, according to Jeff, told me this, I don't care what anybody ever tells you.
[01:27:46]  I know for a fact that UFOs are real and the government has definitive proof of that.
[01:27:51]  And he told him that, but he didn't give him specifics like I was taken out by the president, whatever.
[01:27:56]  But he said that to Jeff way back.
[01:27:59]  Well, it might have been the 70s.
[01:28:00]  Yeah, off the record.
[01:28:01]  Yeah, just off the record.
[01:28:03]  Like, just so you know, like, don't, no matter what anybody tells you, no, 100%.
[01:28:07]  I'm telling you 100%.
[01:28:09]  Have you ever, have you ever looked at a case and just felt in your gut that it was real despite the lack of evidence, like recently?
[01:28:17]  Has there, has there been anything, you know, despite there's lack of evidence, but has anything told you, man, this feels like it might have happened?
[01:28:24]  Is there anything like that recently that's come across?
[01:28:27]  Recently, recently, recently.
[01:28:29]  Like in the last maybe 10 years, has there ever been something that you're like, there's not a lot here?
[01:28:34]  Yeah.
[01:28:34]  Something tells me.
[01:28:35]  O'Hare is pretty good.
[01:28:39]  Yeah.
[01:28:40]  The airport sighting.
[01:28:41]  2006, I think that was.
[01:28:42]  Yeah.
[01:28:43]  That's pretty compelling.
[01:28:44]  We don't have a photograph.
[01:28:45]  A photograph was taken.
[01:28:46]  Yeah.
[01:28:47]  Apparently.
[01:28:47]  And it's out there somewhere.
[01:28:49]  It's got to be more than one, too.
[01:28:50]  Oh, yeah.
[01:28:51]  I'm sure.
[01:28:51]  Imagine if it happened to be one.
[01:28:52]  I mean, there's cameras everywhere.
[01:28:53]  Yeah.
[01:28:54]  And I, I was actually going to go investigate that case.
[01:28:57]  I was doing pickup interviews for the time it might have been out of the blue, but I think it eventually transitioned into an, I know what I saw.
[01:29:06]  And I was in Phoenix and it was late 2008, late 2008.
[01:29:14]  I was in Phoenix and I was doing pickup interviews of that massive flyover.
[01:29:17]  New witnesses were coming forward, willing to go on camera.
[01:29:21]  Families that were on their lawn, lying on their backs, watching this.
[01:29:26]  Boomerang shaped craft.
[01:29:27]  They said it was so big it took minutes to pass over them, moving super slowly, catalyzing the compartments and the metal.
[01:29:33]  And I was doing follow up interviews for that for a film I did.
[01:29:36]  I know what I saw.
[01:29:37]  And then I was going to go to O'Hare.
[01:29:39]  And I was in touch with a couple of people, United Airlines, and they were like, maybe going to consider going on camera if I disguise their, you know, their, but that was all I could get on it.
[01:29:50]  But I was like, wow, this is really compelling.
[01:29:52]  And then I got a phone call about a mass sighting that took place in Stephenville, Texas, Dublin, Stephenville.
[01:29:58]  And so I canceled my trip.
[01:30:00]  To O'Hare, which would have been really cool because it only happened two years prior.
[01:30:03]  And who knows what I would have come up with, right?
[01:30:10]  Because I know that photograph exists.
[01:30:12]  Like, who took the photograph?
[01:30:13]  Where did that photograph go?
[01:30:14]  I bet there's an MIB story behind that photograph.
[01:30:16]  You know what I'm saying?
[01:30:18]  They probably got in there.
[01:30:19]  So I had a whole camera crew ready to go.
[01:30:22]  So we jumped on a plane and poo went to Stephenville, Texas.
[01:30:24]  It was amazing.
[01:30:27]  And that was like, I mean, the whole time they had a town hall meeting, like the Town was all there, like it was a big deal.
[01:30:34]  And the night before, so I flew my crew to Stephenville, Texas, and I flew to New York and I went on Larry King live.
[01:30:43]  And so, about that case, and of course, I hadn't had boots on the ground yet, so I didn't really know what I was talking about, but I was like, you know, did exhibit a technology that, you know, was massive and no air disturbance, ability to hover out of sight, look of an eye, blah, And so, when I arrived, that aired live.
[01:31:00]  When I arrived, like the next day or the day, yeah, it was probably the next day, 24 hours later.
[01:31:05]  Um, there's a little funny side note to that, I can tell you or not, but uh, the whole town knew who I was because I was on Larry King the night before.
[01:31:13]  Wow, so I suddenly like arrived and they were like, Oh, my god, you know, James Fox, I had access to everybody, everybody wanted to meet, you know, and that's that's that's when I got to meet probably one of my best witnesses ever, and that's Ricky Sorrell to this day.
[01:31:27]  He's one of the most compelling.
[01:31:29]  He didn't want to come forward, it took me eight months to get him to finally go on camera.
[01:31:33]  Wow, and he's the one with the gun.
[01:31:35]  He was one of the guns, stood under the craft, and he examined the metal of the craft through his scope.
[01:31:40]  He almost pulled the trigger to see if the bullet was going to ricochet off it or something.
[01:31:43]  But he said he was a metal worker, and he's like, It didn't have any rivets, or welds, or folds, like it was just like a mold.
[01:31:51]  And then he talked about these recessed cones.
[01:31:53]  I mean, Ricky Sorrels is one of the top witnesses.
[01:31:58]  I mean, how many people do you know that stood under a UFO that was so big he couldn't see the edge of it in any direction?
[01:32:04]  He goes, You could have landed an airplane on that damn thing.
[01:32:06]  That's a ceiling outside.
[01:32:08]  And yeah.
[01:32:08]  And when it took off, he said, Had I blinked, I would have missed it.
[01:32:12]  And it said, It went from a hover right above his head and it went off at an angle like this.
[01:32:17]  He goes, It didn't go like this.
[01:32:19]  It just went like this.
[01:32:21]  And I said, Well, describe the speed.
[01:32:22]  He goes, Had I blinked, I would have missed it.
[01:32:25]  It went from here to the stars in the blink of an eye.
[01:32:29]  You know, I seen no nuts, bolts, rivets, seams, no welds, none of this.
[01:32:36]  It looked like a piece of sheet metal.
[01:32:40]  You know, it wasn't shiny.
[01:32:42]  It was a dull, I don't know what you call it, matte finish maybe.
[01:32:47]  This is what I had a hard time with, was if something was to leave, in my mind, it should pivot up and go like an airplane would.
[01:32:59]  This did not do that.
[01:33:01]  This stayed completely flat and it went at a 45 degree angle away.
[01:33:07]  And it took off at such a high rate of speed that the only way I can describe it is if I would have blinked, I would have thought it just disappeared.
[01:33:15]  Whoa.
[01:33:16]  Great case.
[01:33:17]  He got spooked too.
[01:33:19]  He got very spooked.
[01:33:20]  Very, very spooked.
[01:33:21]  This is a common thread here in this interview.
[01:33:23]  Big, tough Texan, armed to the teeth.
[01:33:26]  Yeah.
[01:33:26]  And he was spooked.
[01:33:27]  How did that happen?
[01:33:28]  Well, there were a number of things that were happening to him at the time.
[01:33:31]  And that's probably one of the reasons why he wouldn't knock.
[01:33:32]  He met with me and he would tell me what happened.
[01:33:35]  He took me to the forest.
[01:33:36]  He took me to the exact location where it happened.
[01:33:39]  I was like, oh my God, this guy's testimony is golden.
[01:33:41]  Like, this is so rare that you get to talk to somebody who stood under a UFO and examined it with a scope.
[01:33:48]  Like, whoa, right?
[01:33:50]  I mean, you don't get that many moments in your entire 30 year career.
[01:33:53]  I was like, this guy is amazing.
[01:33:56]  And he was like, the military was flying over his house at all hours of the morning.
[01:34:03]  He said he was running out in his underwear and a shotgun.
[01:34:05]  He was like, they'd light him up like daylight.
[01:34:07]  Spotlight.
[01:34:07]  He called the local Air Force base.
[01:34:09]  Said, you guys got to stop flying your helicopters over my house.
[01:34:14]  And they said, that's our airspace.
[01:34:16]  We'll do what the hell we want.
[01:34:17]  And we suggest you stop talking about what you saw.
[01:34:20]  That's what they said to him.
[01:34:21]  And I talked to the police.
[01:34:22]  I mean, that's a whole nother story.
[01:34:24]  I don't know.
[01:34:24]  We're going to go down that whole rabbit hole, but it's, you can check it out.
[01:34:27]  I know what I saw is out there.
[01:34:28]  You can watch it.
[01:34:28]  It's, it's an amazing case.
[01:34:30]  Amazing case.
[01:34:31]  That sounds incredible.
[01:34:33]  Um, before we get into, first of all, thank you for sharing all this.
[01:34:37]  This is amazing.
[01:34:37]  This is, I could do this all day.
[01:34:39]  Um, I do want to eventually get into some questions.
[01:34:42]  So, we have interns here.
[01:34:44]  We call them interns at Area 52, and they pay a monthly subscription.
[01:34:48]  And we take some of their questions, which we're going to ask you in a second.
[01:34:52]  But before I get into that, I got two questions to get through here.
[01:34:55]  Yep.
[01:34:55]  And I really want to get through these.
[01:34:56]  One is a little lighthearted, and one is something we touched on the top of this episode.
[01:35:01]  But first, is what, just for anyone out there, what TV show or movie or like fictional made thing do you think, in your opinion, Is the most closely related to the phenomenon.
[01:35:15]  Close encounters of the third kind.
[01:35:16]  Yeah.
[01:35:17]  Yeah.
[01:35:18]  And is that because of the tie in with Heineck?
[01:35:21]  Yes.
[01:35:21]  And, you know, Valet and.
[01:35:23]  Yeah, you look at those, you look at even the description of the entities, those came directly out of Project Blue Wick Files.
[01:35:28]  Wow.
[01:35:29]  And like, you know, Spielberg's little way of saying that is having, you know, Heineck have a cameo appearance smoking a cigar, right?
[01:35:37]  Or a pipe.
[01:35:38]  I think he was smoking a pipe.
[01:35:40]  Yeah.
[01:35:40]  Yeah.
[01:35:40]  During the encounter.
[01:35:41]  But even down to Richard Dreyfus' face being burned, those came right out of.
[01:35:45]  You know, close encounter.
[01:35:46]  So, yeah, close encounter of the first kind, right?
[01:35:48]  You see a UFO, close encounter of the second kind, it interacts with the environment, burns someone's face, leaves imprints to the ground, affects plant life, whatever, radar, photographs.
[01:35:57]  And then you got close encounters of the third kind.
[01:35:59]  Well, those came directly out of, you know, he was a consultant, as was Jacques Valais, you know, and Jacques Valais, his character was portrayed.
[01:36:08]  And you'll talk to a lot of witnesses that go, that's what I saw.
[01:36:10]  I saw that exact orb, or I saw that, you know.
[01:36:14]  So, those, that was the most realistic, in my opinion, film ever made.
[01:36:19]  And again, those came right out of, I don't know about the chandelier, but pretty cool stuff.
[01:36:25]  Well, the chandelier I've heard of.
[01:36:27]  I have someone who's had a picture of something similar, which is interesting.
[01:36:30]  Oh, you say that.
[01:36:31]  But it is interesting.
[01:36:33]  How much do you think Spielberg knows?
[01:36:37]  The guy's a fan, dude.
[01:36:38]  He's been putting out consistent UFO ET docs.
[01:36:40]  No question.
[01:36:43]  I actually have a letter from Spielberg that was written to Larry King about me and my movie.
[01:36:51]  Whoa.
[01:36:51]  Yeah.
[01:36:53]  I'll get you.
[01:36:54]  I could probably, yeah.
[01:36:56]  Excuse me.
[01:36:57]  Remind me, I can get you a copy of it.
[01:36:59]  Great.
[01:37:00]  So, Larry King, I don't talk about this that often.
[01:37:08]  I'm not going to talk about it now because I told Spielberg's publicist, I think of his name in a second, that I was planning on going public.
[01:37:17]  And unless I heard from him, I'm going public with it because I sat on it for 10 years.
[01:37:21]  Larry King had sent a copy, a rough cut of I Know What I Saw to Steven Spielberg and was like, hey, this is the real life close encounters.
[01:37:29]  You should check it out.
[01:37:31]  And then.
[01:37:35]  A couple days later, I got a call from, what was it?
[01:37:40]  I got a call from an agency informing me that Steven Spielberg was going to watch my movie.
[01:37:49]  It was kind of weird.
[01:37:51]  Like, I just got this call from Daisy.
[01:37:52]  It wasn't from Larry King's office.
[01:37:56]  It was actually from someone at the same agency.
[01:37:59]  And they were like, Mr. Fox, just wanted to inform you this is so and so over at the so and so agency that Steven Spielberg is about to watch your movie.
[01:38:06]  And it was like 10 in the morning.
[01:38:07]  I was like, really?
[01:38:08]  Wow, God, that's cool.
[01:38:11]  So I was like, well, let me know how it goes.
[01:38:13]  And I called my dad.
[01:38:15]  I was like, Dad, you're not going to believe that Steven Spielberg's watching.
[01:38:17]  I know what I saw right now.
[01:38:18]  This is amazing.
[01:38:19]  And my dad's like, well, come on down.
[01:38:21]  Let's have tea together.
[01:38:22]  So I went down to my dad's house and we had tea and we're having tea.
[01:38:25]  And I'm like, Steven Spielberg's watching my movie right now.
[01:38:27]  Like, whoa, you know?
[01:38:29]  And then I get a phone call like two hours later, whatever.
[01:38:34]  And Cesaria, I think her name was at the agency.
[01:38:37]  And she's like, well, Steven watched the movie.
[01:38:43]  Okay, well, what happened?
[01:38:45]  She said, Well, he wrote a letter to Larry King, and that was it.
[01:38:50]  I said, He watched the movie and then he wrote a letter to Larry King.
[01:38:53]  She goes, Yeah, I just wanted to let you know.
[01:38:56]  I was like, Okay, thanks.
[01:38:58]  Then about a week later, I get a call.
[01:39:00]  I think it was Avrielle Gallagher, probably.
[01:39:02]  She's like, you know, we got something for you.
[01:39:08]  I was like, it came from Steven Spielberg.
[01:39:10]  I was like, oh my gosh, tell me what, you know, we're going to FedEx it to you.
[01:39:16]  So I was like, cool.
[01:39:18]  Yeah.
[01:39:19]  Gave her the address.
[01:39:20]  And like a day later, I lived in a small town at the time and the FedEx driver was like, James Fox, you're not going to believe this.
[01:39:28]  She came running out to my door.
[01:39:29]  He goes, you got a letter from Larry King.
[01:39:31]  It's a FedEx from Larry King's office.
[01:39:33]  I was like, yeah, and guess what?
[01:39:35]  It's a letter from Steven Spielberg about a UFO doc.
[01:39:38]  He goes, Can I watch you open it?
[01:39:40]  I was like, Yeah.
[01:39:41]  So we sat there and I ripped the thing open.
[01:39:43]  And there's a letter from Steven Spielberg talking about the movie, talking about, he goes, Despite the fact that I've made so much attention to the phenomenon or UFOs, the subject matter, I unfortunately have never seen a UFO.
[01:39:57]  And that is so unfair.
[01:39:58]  I hope that you will continue reporting, blah, So I had a quote from Steven Spielberg about my movie in writing.
[01:40:06]  And his handwriting, the original letter.
[01:40:08]  Yeah, I have the original letter.
[01:40:09]  Wow, that's so cool.
[01:40:10]  Yeah, it was typed and signed.
[01:40:13]  And so I contacted his publicist.
[01:40:18]  Can't believe I can't remember his name right now.
[01:40:19]  I'm sorry.
[01:40:20]  And I said, I could look it up.
[01:40:23]  And I said, Hey, I've got, I want to use it.
[01:40:26]  Oh, we don't endorse movies.
[01:40:28]  I said, No, no, no, no.
[01:40:29]  That's not what I'm saying.
[01:40:30]  I said, He already gave me the quote.
[01:40:32]  I have the quote.
[01:40:33]  You have the quote?
[01:40:34]  I said, Yeah.
[01:40:35]  He goes, Well, how did you, what do you mean you have the quote?
[01:40:38]  I said, Well, Larry King sent me the letter.
[01:40:40]  Larry King gave you the letter.
[01:40:42]  I was like, Yeah, and I'd like to use it to, could you imagine having a quote from Steven Spielberg back in the day on a UFO time?
[01:40:49]  Insane.
[01:40:49]  Like, literally, like, I remember this guy that I was working with goes, Dude, that's the difference between here and the stars.
[01:40:55]  Like, that'll just catapult you into the.
[01:40:58]  So, so my dad goes, Well, you have the quote.
[01:41:02]  Why don't you just use it?
[01:41:02]  I was like, Ooh, Dad, but I don't really.
[01:41:04]  You want to burn a bridge?
[01:41:06]  You know, and so he's like, Well, we would appreciate it if you didn't use that.
[01:41:11]  Wow.
[01:41:11]  So I was thinking to myself, like, all the attention here, we got this, like, fully independent in the trenches documentary filmmaker, like, you know, doing the best he can.
[01:41:21]  And, like, your support would just mean the world to me.
[01:41:25]  And you liked the movie and you said it.
[01:41:26]  You found it really compelling, but you won't let me use it, like, publicly.
[01:41:31]  So, anyway, I was a little disappointed.
[01:41:33]  And so I don't know, maybe like 10 years went by or something like that.
[01:41:37]  And I sent him a letter.
[01:41:38]  I sent him an email and we'd been corresponding a little bit.
[01:41:41]  And I was like, hey, just so you know, I intend to go public with that letter.
[01:41:43]  It's been 10 years.
[01:41:45]  And unless I hear from you, I'll assume that it's okay.
[01:41:49]  And I didn't hear from him.
[01:41:50]  So I published it a lot.
[01:41:50]  I mean, I put it out there.
[01:41:51]  I should put it out there more recently, but I'll give it to you.
[01:41:53]  That is so cool.
[01:41:55]  Isn't that crazy?
[01:41:55]  That is amazing.
[01:41:56]  And good for you.
[01:41:58]  I think you made the right call not putting it out, like ethically.
[01:42:01]  Yeah.
[01:42:01]  You know, I think he, much to your point, I think he knows how much that's worth putting his name on anything.
[01:42:09]  You know what I mean?
[01:42:09]  So, you know, and had he wanted to put his name on it, I think he would have let you know.
[01:42:17]  But I think that's.
[01:42:18]  You know, it sounds to me like his way of sort of saying, Hey, this is a great movie without saying, Hey, this is a great movie.
[01:42:26]  Yeah.
[01:42:26]  You know, I mean, the weight of his endorsement would have been game changing.
[01:42:30]  Typed and signed, like that takes effort.
[01:42:32]  That's not an email.
[01:42:33]  It's not a text.
[01:42:34]  It's not a DM.
[01:42:35]  Yep.
[01:42:35]  You know, so that goes a long way as, you know, as an aspiring filmmaker.

=== Different Cases and Forces (15:16) ===

[01:42:40]  I'm sure that is.
[01:42:41]  Oh, I have it on my wall.
[01:42:42]  Yeah.
[01:42:42]  I have it framed on my wall.
[01:42:43]  Yeah.
[01:42:43]  Yeah.
[01:42:44]  Last question before we get into the intern inquiries.
[01:42:48]  Just want to make sure we're rolling here.
[01:42:50]  All right.
[01:42:53]  At the beginning of this episode, I welcomed you into the SCIF for the second time.
[01:42:57]  Yeah.
[01:42:58]  Because you recently got invited into a SCIF.
[01:43:04]  Yeah.
[01:43:06]  And I could say, is that the Pentagon?
[01:43:08]  So I went to the Pentagon initially.
[01:43:10]  It was right across the street from the Pentagon.
[01:43:11]  Okay.
[01:43:11]  It was an extension on the other side.
[01:43:13]  And I had to do a 48 hour back.
[01:43:15]  Ground check.
[01:43:16]  And so basically, let's just say this as much as I, because I've been asked not to reveal exactly why I went there because it could interfere with the current investigations that are happening.
[01:43:27]  But we're both going after the same footage.
[01:43:31]  And I'm helping them acquire said footage.
[01:43:33]  And I will be able to talk.
[01:43:33]  I'm not trying to be sneaky or secretive.
[01:43:36]  I just, I can't jeopardize those contacts.
[01:43:39]  And we're working together right now.
[01:43:40]  And a lot of people think, like, oh, well, now you're working with some people on the inside.
[01:43:43]  Well, people are people, and there's some good people and some bad people.
[01:43:47]  And some people that actually legitimately want this information out.
[01:43:51]  So I'm working with, and there was an individual that I'm working with who's now on the outside, who was on the inside, and he pulled some strings and got me into a skiff with the current head of Arrow, John Kosklowski.
[01:44:05]  Yeah, Koslowski.
[01:44:06]  I had to do a 48 hour background check on me, and it was like a scene out of a movie.
[01:44:11]  I remember meeting up with the gentleman, just like the kind of guy that I expected the suit, the haircut, the jawline.
[01:44:18]  I mean, he was like, Quintessential.
[01:44:20]  The guy could have been, you know, if he had a dark suit on, it could have been an MIB almost.
[01:44:25]  That's what I was going to say.
[01:44:26]  That's what I was going to say.
[01:44:29]  One day your friend, the next day a spook.
[01:44:29]  I'm sitting there walking through the halls and we go to the security and they're combing through everything I had because I was going to get a flight right afterwards.
[01:44:34]  So I had all my bags and oh my God, they were going through everything.
[01:44:37]  And they did a background check.
[01:44:38]  How are you feeling?
[01:44:39]  I was feeling a little stressed.
[01:44:41]  This is a big deal.
[01:44:42]  Big deal for me, yeah.
[01:44:43]  For someone who's been trying to get to the center of the maze.
[01:44:46]  Yeah.
[01:44:46]  But I was trying to like, so I went through the security and I was a little stressed.
[01:44:49]  I was like, shit, I don't think I have anything in my bag, but they're combing through the lint.
[01:44:53]  I mean, my God, they were going through everything.
[01:44:54]  I was like, I don't think I have anything in there.
[01:44:56]  I was thinking to myself, like, you know.
[01:44:59]  So, anyway, so we go through that.
[01:45:01]  And then I get this badge.
[01:45:04]  And I'll show you.
[01:45:05]  Yeah.
[01:45:05]  So, I get this badge.
[01:45:08]  And then I have to go, they have these like glass tubes, maybe about this big around.
[01:45:14]  And the door would open.
[01:45:15]  And only one person goes to the glass tubes.
[01:45:17]  And they had probably like maybe five or six all along this wall.
[01:45:21]  And you'd walk up to it and this door would open, like two doors open.
[01:45:25]  You'd step in with these two little feet marked.
[01:45:27]  And then the other one would open, and then you go through that.
[01:45:30]  And then I had to walk over to this.
[01:45:31]  What is that?
[01:45:32]  I don't know.
[01:45:33]  They scanning you?
[01:45:33]  Is that like an airport?
[01:45:35]  I don't know.
[01:45:36]  I don't know.
[01:45:36]  I'd already gone through the metal detector, I'd already gone through that whole thing.
[01:45:41]  Whoa.
[01:45:41]  So I went through that and got to the other side of that.
[01:45:44]  And then I was like, excuse me, I was like, well, can I take a picture of the two?
[01:45:47]  No, no.
[01:45:50]  Takes me over to a series of lockers where I was supposed to get rid of all my camera stuff and, you know, phone and electron, everything.
[01:46:00]  And I was like, well, can I use the bathroom real quick?
[01:46:02]  And I, you know, when you use the bathroom and, you know, I had a little special pass and I documented that special pass.
[01:46:10]  Last second, I had to.
[01:46:13]  Then I came out, had to get rid of all my electronics.
[01:46:15]  Then we came up just like in the movies, that big door looked like a bank vault almost.
[01:46:20]  Whoa.
[01:46:20]  And the door, he opens the door, we walk in, and it was like kind of like an office, like offices and cubicles and hallways.
[01:46:33]  And I was like, wow, I was thinking like a skiff would be more like a secured, like little room with a table.
[01:46:37]  Yeah.
[01:46:38]  But the whole area was a skiff.
[01:46:39]  Like all the people that are working in the arrow are just working in a skiff.
[01:46:42]  Like it's one big skiff.
[01:46:43]  Interesting.
[01:46:44]  And for those who don't know, a security compartmentalized facility, information facility.
[01:46:49]  Yeah.
[01:46:51]  There you go.
[01:46:52]  Yep.
[01:46:53]  Nothing works in there, anyways, right?
[01:46:55]  Like none of this, nothing.
[01:46:56]  Oh, yeah.
[01:46:56]  No signal.
[01:46:57]  It's like lead lines entering or exiting.
[01:47:00]  Yeah.
[01:47:00]  So, anyway, so this gentleman's walking me through, and he's Air Force Office of Special Investigations.
[01:47:05]  And so he walks me through this hallway, and we get up to two doors in the hallway.
[01:47:13]  There's a door on the left.
[01:47:14]  And the door on the right.
[01:47:15]  The door on the right is closed.
[01:47:16]  The door on the left is open.
[01:47:18]  And there's like an oblong shaped table and probably two women and three men in suits, nicely dressed, having a meeting.
[01:47:26]  And I'm stopping.
[01:47:26]  He says, You wait right here.
[01:47:28]  I'm going to get somebody else.
[01:47:29]  So I'm standing there in the hallway and I couldn't help but look over to my left.
[01:47:34]  And I'm looking over to my left and I'm fully eavesdropping into our conversations.
[01:47:37]  Right.
[01:47:39]  And I'm looking at them and what else am I supposed to do?
[01:47:42]  Right.
[01:47:42]  So I was like kind of eavesdropping.
[01:47:43]  And then they looked over at me and this guy got up quickly.
[01:47:46]  And abruptly and close the door in my face.
[01:47:50]  But I was like, well, how could I not look?
[01:47:52]  I mean, you know, they're having a conversation to skip.
[01:47:54]  I was the conversation.
[01:47:55]  I'm not going to ask you what they said, but was the conversation anything pertinent or was it just?
[01:48:00]  No, I was just trying to, I was just tuning in.
[01:48:02]  I was just really trying to listen and I was, you know, I was checking it out, you know, and the guy closed the door.
[01:48:08]  And then this other guy comes up, John Kosklowski.
[01:48:11]  And he's like, I got a few minutes.
[01:48:13]  And we went into his office.
[01:48:17]  When this other guy from the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, I guess he's part of the task force as well, and start talking openly about.
[01:48:25]  So, this other guy was there the entire time as well.
[01:48:27]  John Koslowski was only there.
[01:48:28]  John Koslowski, but the other guy was.
[01:48:29]  The other guy was there the whole time.
[01:48:31]  The whole time.
[01:48:31]  So, he was.
[01:48:32]  John, the Air Force Office of Special Investigation guy, was there the whole time.
[01:48:36]  John was only there for maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
[01:48:40]  Interesting.
[01:48:40]  But, because he, you know, so I started talking about specific cases.
[01:48:43]  I was like, where do these men in black come from?
[01:48:44]  They're, they're, they have this omnipresence.
[01:48:47]  They're global.
[01:48:47]  Like, who are they?
[01:48:48]  And, They didn't make any comments.
[01:48:50]  I was like, I was told they're Air Force Office special investigations, but I don't know.
[01:48:55]  And then I said, I was like, well, you guys do know that, you know, obviously the vast majority of these cases, UFO reports and UAP reports can be explained in down to earth conventional terms.
[01:49:07]  I mean, it's like there's a residual 15 or 20% that clearly, after exhaustive investigation, defy a conventional explanation.
[01:49:16]  And those probably originate from a non human intelligence.
[01:49:19]  I mean, you guys know that, right?
[01:49:20]  Like, come on, you got to know that.
[01:49:22]  And John looked at me and he goes, James, I can't part my own hair without approval from the DOD.
[01:49:29]  And you can quote me on that.
[01:49:31]  You can say we met and you can say that.
[01:49:34]  Well, I was like, he was telling me my hands are tied.
[01:49:37]  Yeah.
[01:49:37]  Doesn't matter what conclusions I draw.
[01:49:41]  It was amazing.
[01:49:42]  That's crazy.
[01:49:42]  That's crazy that he allowed you to do that.
[01:49:44]  And he said to me, I didn't say, hey, can I quote you on that?
[01:49:46]  He goes, you can, and you can quote, you can talk, you can say we met, and you can say I said that.
[01:49:51]  That's his way of telling you.
[01:49:52]  Yes, that was his way of getting the word across.
[01:49:54]  My hands are tied.
[01:49:55]  Doesn't matter what conclusions I draw.
[01:49:58]  Isn't that crazy?
[01:49:59]  That is crazy.
[01:49:59]  And then I was talking about all the different cases.
[01:50:01]  I was like, this case and that case.
[01:50:02]  And then he had to go, and then they showed me some stuff that they were going after.
[01:50:08]  Right.
[01:50:09]  They showed me some.
[01:50:10]  Yeah, I got to see some stuff and I was like, that's not.
[01:50:15]  I was like, you need to contact this witness before you release that because that's not going to go down well.
[01:50:19]  And I also said, you guys got to throw us a bone.
[01:50:22]  You know, we're not going anywhere.
[01:50:23]  This is coming out.
[01:50:24]  It was amazing.
[01:50:27]  I was still in touch with one of the individuals I texted this morning.
[01:50:30]  Do you have a.
[01:50:33]  Thank you for sharing that, by the way.
[01:50:33]  Yeah, of course.
[01:50:34]  And I felt like I was there for a second.
[01:50:35]  That's kind of cool.
[01:50:36]  Yeah, so cool.
[01:50:38]  You know, first of all, it's really nice to hear that.
[01:50:41]  You know, part of uh John Kozlowski telling you that because uh Arrow's got a bad rap, oh yeah, Sean Kirkpatrick was exactly in and you know, we're all kind of of the same mindset that are like, oh, this is just a big psyop, big disinformation thing, they're just gonna slow leak, they know the truth, they're not letting us know.
[01:51:00]  Like, this is the narrative when you hear about Arrow in the community.
[01:51:05]  So, to hear him sort of say, hey, I get it, but I can't do anything.
[01:51:12]  Just that, I feel is such a strong message that needed to be said.
[01:51:17]  Yeah.
[01:51:17]  So that's really important.
[01:51:19]  And oh, I got one more thing that's really cool.
[01:51:20]  Okay.
[01:51:21]  So, John, sorry, the other gentleman, why am I?
[01:51:26]  Anyway, doesn't matter.
[01:51:27]  I wonder.
[01:51:28]  I have it in my phone.
[01:51:29]  And he said, you know, a little factoid, something you might want to, you know, know.
[01:51:37]  I was like, what's that?
[01:51:38]  He goes, your film, The Phenomenon, is mandatory viewing.
[01:51:41]  If you want to work for the UAP Task Force or Arrow, you have to watch The Phenomenon first.
[01:51:45]  Get out of here.
[01:51:46]  I swear on my life, it's what he said to me.
[01:51:49]  Isn't that cool?
[01:51:49]  Dude, that is the coolest.
[01:51:51]  I was like, wow.
[01:51:52]  Yeah, I know.
[01:51:54]  That's better than a Spielberg.
[01:51:58]  That's really awesome.
[01:51:58]  It was so funny, too, because I was like, man, I'm in the belly of the beast right now.
[01:52:02]  Yeah, and you're helping to shape the narrative.
[01:52:05]  It felt so like, but then I realized, like, people are people.
[01:52:09]  Like, there are good people on the inside, people that really want to get, look, and there have been, because people go, oh, you know, they just think government, they think, Evil, they think politician, they think evil.
[01:52:19]  Yeah, there's some really good people on the inside.
[01:52:21]  There are.
[01:52:21]  Look, we have people dating back to the 1940s that wanted this stuff to come out, right?
[01:52:27]  Yeah.
[01:52:27]  Jesse Marcel.
[01:52:29]  Yeah, the guy that ran Project Blue Book during the incursion over, during the invasion, but the two consecutive weekends in July of 1952, the guy that was head of Blue Book at the time wrote a book about it.
[01:52:43]  I mean, there are people that have been on the former head of the CIA, Roscoe Hillencover in the 60s.
[01:52:48]  Major General, blanking on his name.
[01:52:51]  Well, John Stanford is one of the guys in the press conference.
[01:52:55]  But he gave a press conference in uniform about it.
[01:52:57]  But there's another gentleman that wrote a book that was head of Project Blue Book in 1952.
[01:53:02]  You can look him up, and I'm just drawing a blank right now.
[01:53:04]  But you've got former head of the CIA, Roscoe Hillencutter, quote in the New York Times, who talked about, you know, there have been people over the decades that have made an effort to tell the people.
[01:53:18]  It's not like they all decided to have this excessive secrecy.
[01:53:22]  And, you know, people criticize Lou Elizondo, always a deep state.
[01:53:25]  It's like, okay, so everything that I've heard Lou say for me aligns with my field research.
[01:53:33]  Like, even the fact that he testified under oath the other day about a crash retrieval program.
[01:53:38]  People want to call that a big nothing burger.
[01:53:39]  Actually, that's kind of a something burger.
[01:53:41]  This guy worked at the UAP task force, ATIP, probably OSAP prior to that.
[01:53:48]  But in any case, and he's testifying under oath.
[01:53:50]  There are consequences for lying under oath to a bipartisan group of lawmakers.
[01:53:55]  That was pretty phenomenal.
[01:53:56]  You were there with me.
[01:53:57]  It was pretty phenomenal to witness.
[01:53:58]  But I say that, like, people are people.
[01:54:01]  And there are some reasons, you know, from the decades, justification of potentially for some secrecy.
[01:54:08]  I disagree with it now entirely, but maybe they were legitimately trying to figure out what the hell was going on.
[01:54:13]  Yeah.
[01:54:14]  You know, back in the 40s, there was a point where that was needed.
[01:54:17]  Yeah.
[01:54:17]  They might have just said, hey, let's just hold on a second.
[01:54:20]  Let's not panic the public.
[01:54:21]  Let's, you know, and then the deeper they dug, the more they probably were like, At least what the hell's going on here, right?
[01:54:30]  And even if you have definitive proof, bodies, crash materials, it still doesn't mean you have all the answers.
[01:54:35]  And there's probably, I mean, maybe I'll pose this question to you, but for me, I do believe that there is probably some framework outside of the government that really knows what's going on.
[01:54:49]  I'm told 20 people.
[01:54:51]  Yeah.
[01:54:51]  Okay.
[01:54:52]  20.
[01:54:53]  20.
[01:54:53]  Wow.
[01:54:53]  Globally.
[01:54:54]  Globally, 20 people have the bigger picture.
[01:54:57]  Have the bigger picture.
[01:55:00]  Yeah.
[01:55:01]  And they're running it.
[01:55:03]  20.
[01:55:04]  Wow.
[01:55:05]  And that came from someone I really trust.
[01:55:08]  Someone I really trust.
[01:55:09]  Could that be wrong?
[01:55:09]  Yeah, could be.
[01:55:10]  But I mean, it sounds.
[01:55:12]  I think not.
[01:55:12]  Yeah.
[01:55:13]  And that's been, I think, a lot of people's suspicions is that whatever's happening, you know, there's a very few amount of people at the center of this labyrinth.
[01:55:24]  Yeah.
[01:55:25]  A very few.
[01:55:25]  There's a lot of people around the center.
[01:55:27]  I heard it's a little scary, too.
[01:55:29]  I bet.
[01:55:30]  Yeah, what'd you hear?
[01:55:32]  I, I, that's all I heard.
[01:55:33]  That it was a little scary.
[01:55:34]  Yeah.
[01:55:35]  But I was like, hey, even if we're someone's petri dish, whatever, reality is reality.
[01:55:39]  Yeah.
[01:55:40]  Right.
[01:55:40]  Like, or, you know, is it a little scary that we don't have control over airspace?
[01:55:44]  Well, I've known that for a while.
[01:55:46]  If they were here to do us harm, I mean, a lot of people could argue with me and say abductions.
[01:55:50]  Okay.
[01:55:50]  I get it.
[01:55:51]  But for the most part, all the people that I've talked to that have had face to face encounters or really dramatic UFO encounters, like close contacts with the second kind, third kind, first kind, um, If their intent was to harm us, it would have vaporized us decades ago.
[01:56:09]  That's just, and again, people could contradict me and say that that's not what they believe.
[01:56:15]  Yeah, there's different cases.
[01:56:17]  Totally.
[01:56:17]  You say my, you know, Kolaris in one.
[01:56:19]  Sure.
[01:56:20]  But for the most part, it's fairly benign.
[01:56:22]  In fact, it was really interesting.
[01:56:25]  And I was like, in retrospect, I looked back on it 10 years after the fact.
[01:56:30]  I did an interview with Parviz Jafari.
[01:56:33]  He was an Iranian general.
[01:56:35]  And he had this dramatic UFO encounter over Tehran, Iran in like 1975.
[01:56:40]  Could have been 76 in a Phantom F Ford jet.
[01:56:45]  And he tried to shoot at it.
[01:56:47]  It's really dramatic.
[01:56:48]  I feature it and I know what I saw.
[01:56:50]  It was an incredible case.
[01:56:51]  And the fact that we got him out of the States at the time when George Bush had called it the access of evil, the whole Iran.
[01:56:58]  And I was like, oh, God, no, no, he's not going to be able to get the visas to come, you know.
[01:57:02]  And he was reflecting on the case years later on camera to me.
[01:57:07]  And he goes, he tried to shoot it and it didn't end well when he tried to shoot it.
[01:57:11]  Like it was, he thought he was dead.
[01:57:13]  And, um, He goes, My biggest regret was that I didn't try to make peaceful contact.
[01:57:20]  I tried to shoot it.
[01:57:22]  What would have happened had I tried to make peaceful contact?
[01:57:25]  And he was really thinking hard about that one.
[01:57:28]  And that's, you know, anything that we can't identify, we just immediately assume is a threat.
[01:57:35]  And we take that position, you know, that position of aggression.
[01:57:39]  And yeah, that doesn't generally end well.
[01:57:43]  Yeah.
[01:57:43]  Yeah.
[01:57:43]  That's.
[01:57:43]  It's kind of like the witness in Texas, where he had to have been a scope.
[01:57:49]  And he's like, probably not a good idea.
[01:57:51]  Finger was on the trigger, and he was, yeah.
[01:57:54]  I could start an intergalactic war right now.

=== Regrets Over Shooting It Down (06:24) ===

[01:57:56]  Like, what's going on?
[01:57:57]  Maybe I better not do that.
[01:58:00]  All right.
[01:58:00]  We're going to get into some questions here.
[01:58:02]  Let me turn on this camera.
[01:58:03]  Got it.
[01:58:03]  You got it.
[01:58:05]  All right.
[01:58:05]  While I go set up the camera, if you've noticed, these videos aren't sponsored.
[01:58:10]  And so I'm going to take this opportunity to share with you some of the things that help support this channel, including new merch.
[01:58:17]  We've got these amazing Area 52 snapbacks with the embroidered logo on the front.
[01:58:21]  As well as some brand new patches that you can add to your favorite jacket or shirt or whatever.
[01:58:26]  I left a link in the description where you can pick them up and thank you for the support.
[01:58:30]  All right, back to the video.
[01:58:31]  This is so cool.
[01:58:32]  Thank you so much for this.
[01:58:33]  Yeah, absolutely.
[01:58:34]  I mean, I've read through a bunch of it and there's a whole bunch of really interesting, just fringe cases that you would never otherwise hear about, right?
[01:58:42]  And I find that to be one of the most fascinating things.
[01:58:44]  The phenomenon.
[01:58:45]  All right there.
[01:58:46]  Right there.
[01:58:47]  The phenomenon.
[01:58:49]  Wow.
[01:58:49]  Right.
[01:58:49]  A long time ago, too.
[01:58:52]  Yeah, 1960 years ago.
[01:58:54]  Wow.
[01:58:54]  Anyway, as you were saying, yeah, we'll bring in some of the questions here.
[01:59:02]  Let's do it.
[01:59:02]  So, one of which you answered already, but here's one from our Discord moderator, Helder Helsan.
[01:59:11]  So, pop up here.
[01:59:13]  Cool.
[01:59:13]  It says, if you could travel back to any UFO event in history to witness it firsthand, which one would you choose and why?
[01:59:24]  Socorro, New Mexico, 1964, April, because it involves a landing and two entities that got out of the spacecraft.
[01:59:37]  If I could, I've thought about that many times.
[01:59:40]  If I could just put myself somewhere hidden, you know, And I have witnessed that up close, the aliens getting out of the spacecraft and walking around.
[01:59:51]  Oh my gosh, that'd be incredible.
[01:59:53]  I mean, I thought about Varginha, Brazil, but that involved the military and aggression and people's lives threatened.
[02:00:01]  But that encounter was very benign.
[02:00:03]  Right.
[02:00:03]  It was secluded.
[02:00:04]  It was secluded.
[02:00:04]  It was benign, remote.
[02:00:06]  And if you look at the topography of the area, they actually picked a spot like down in Arroyo to minimize any possibility of them being seen.
[02:00:17]  They chose a really A low point where they could land and just, you know what I mean?
[02:00:22]  And just be kind of hidden.
[02:00:23]  It's interesting.
[02:00:24]  You look at what the phenomenon does, and then you look at what the phenomenon doesn't do.
[02:00:30]  And that speaks volumes.
[02:00:32]  That's a great point.
[02:00:33]  Yeah.
[02:00:34]  Yeah.
[02:00:34]  They're not showing up on, you know, the White House lawn.
[02:00:37]  Got close though.
[02:00:38]  Yeah.
[02:00:39]  But yeah, did get close.
[02:00:40]  52.
[02:00:41]  But they are showing up at schools.
[02:00:43]  Yes.
[02:00:44]  All right.
[02:00:45]  We've got another one here.
[02:00:46]  This is, oh, no, this one we already, it's going to show up anyways, but we already got to.
[02:00:50]  So we'll get to a different one.
[02:00:51]  One second.
[02:00:52]  I love the colors.
[02:00:53]  That's so pretty.
[02:00:55]  Got a few.
[02:00:57]  Okay.
[02:00:58]  This is a really, really good question.
[02:01:04]  This is from Stan B.
[02:01:07]  And Stan says Who's the first guest or witness you would get in front of the camera if they were allowed to break their NDA?
[02:01:17]  Hal put off.
[02:01:21]  Yeah, I would agree with that too.
[02:01:22]  I'd love to get him in The SCIF.
[02:01:24]  I have to be careful what I say here, but let's just say that I believe, and for reasons that I won't discuss, I believe he's a firsthand witness.
[02:01:39]  Wow.
[02:01:42]  Wow.
[02:01:44]  I believe that.
[02:01:45]  I mean, from the interviews he even shared in the program, You know, kind of caught me off guard, especially when he says, like, I've seen things that if I talk about, I'll go to jail.
[02:01:57]  Yeah.
[02:01:57]  Have you seen things that if you talk about, you go to jail?
[02:02:02]  No, but I could talk about things other people might go to jail.
[02:02:05]  Enough said.
[02:02:06]  Yeah.
[02:02:07]  Wow.
[02:02:08]  That's a lot of weight.
[02:02:09]  It is.
[02:02:10]  Yeah.
[02:02:11]  I remember asking myself at one point, is my life better knowing these things?
[02:02:16]  And on the one hand, it's like, be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.
[02:02:19]  You know, 30 years in the field, right?
[02:02:21]  Traveling all over the damn place.
[02:02:23]  Like, I must be nuts.
[02:02:24]  What the hell?
[02:02:25]  You know what I mean?
[02:02:26]  Yeah.
[02:02:26]  Especially, I was telling you last night that I've been laughed at and ridiculed for most of my adult life.
[02:02:32]  Can you imagine?
[02:02:33]  Like, that's why when I was watching David Grush testify, I'll never forget this.
[02:02:38]  I'm an already emotional kind of guy, but I was like, I was staring at my screen and my son was trying to get my attention.
[02:02:44]  He wanted to go play with me outside or something.
[02:02:45]  It was in the middle of the day.
[02:02:47]  I had my phone and I was sitting on this little leather sofa and I was staring at it and I had tears.
[02:02:54]  Pouring down sides of my face, just pouring down like a river for the whole time because I was like, I knew it.
[02:03:02]  You know, I knew it.
[02:03:04]  Damn it.
[02:03:04]  I knew it.
[02:03:05]  And I got laughed at and ridiculed and made fun of.
[02:03:08]  And I didn't believe David Grush because it was a high level intelligence officer testifying under oath to a bipartisan group of lawmakers.
[02:03:17]  I believed him because everything he said aligned with my 30 years of research in the field.
[02:03:22]  That's why I believed him.
[02:03:24]  You know what I mean?
[02:03:25]  Yeah.
[02:03:25]  And that, the level of, I can't even describe what it felt like for, I just can't.
[02:03:30]  It was just, that's amazing.
[02:03:32]  Tears just pouring down my face, a relief.
[02:03:35]  And then, like, just weight off my shoulders.
[02:03:37]  You can recognize the courage, too.
[02:03:39]  Oh, totally.
[02:03:39]  You know, of these men who've all come forward, even in the recent one.
[02:03:43]  It's like, we're quick to dismiss a lot of the information as anecdotal or secondhand with everything to lose and nothing to gain.
[02:03:50]  Yeah.
[02:03:51]  It's a lot.
[02:03:52]  And their lives in jeopardy, their families.
[02:03:55]  And remind, Your audience, people out there, it's so easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize.
[02:04:03]  And, like, we're all human.
[02:04:04]  We try to get it right.
[02:04:06]  And we have people that are making some pretty crazy allegations.
[02:04:09]  And I'll be the first one to tell you, I believe, you know, you can't just believe something because a former military officer is saying it.
[02:04:16]  However, it's really hard to make the decisions like, do I report on it?

=== Operating in a Different Dimension (03:17) ===

[02:04:20]  Do I not report on it?
[02:04:21]  Well, if you don't report on it, then clearly no more information is going to come out on it.
[02:04:25]  You got to at some point get out there, put the hook in the water and see if there's, you know, and we don't always get it right.
[02:04:34]  We try to, and I certainly try to, and I would never deliberately put out anything that was disinformation, never, no amount of money in the world.
[02:04:42]  Would get me to do that, but I believe sometimes I'll believe something just enough to put it out there, and it's like, let's pray to God that other firsthand witnesses will come forward as a result of that.
[02:04:51]  And that's a big part of what I reported.
[02:04:54]  And now we're getting to the point where you know we're not just dealing with unidentified objects in the sky anymore, now we're dealing with beings on the ground and possible hardware in a lab and biologics, as David Cross would put it.
[02:05:06]  I don't like that term, I don't either.
[02:05:08]  Can we just say aliens?
[02:05:09]  Yes, I don't care if they're from here, I'm still calling them aliens, they're alien to me.
[02:05:13]  We call them NHI.
[02:05:14]  Yeah, NHI.
[02:05:15]  Non human intelligence works, but you know what?
[02:05:16]  A dolphin is NHI too.
[02:05:18]  Oh, okay.
[02:05:18]  Good point.
[02:05:19]  Do you know what I mean?
[02:05:21]  Good point.
[02:05:21]  Aliens is good.
[02:05:21]  And let's make UAP UFO again.
[02:05:25]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:05:25]  Right.
[02:05:25]  This is the last question here from the interns here.
[02:05:31]  I can neither confirm nor deny.
[02:05:33]  We'll have to see.
[02:05:36]  No comment.
[02:05:37]  In a secure environment only.
[02:05:39]  We are in a secure environment.
[02:05:41]  That's right.
[02:05:41]  Anything goes here.
[02:05:42]  This is from Disco.
[02:05:43]  It says, James, straight up question about UAP UFO, Le OVNI.
[02:05:46]  What do you think it is?
[02:05:47]  What do you think it is?
[02:05:48]  Good question.
[02:05:49]  And I've given this a lot of thought, and I almost called the phenomenon all of the above.
[02:05:58]  That was a name that I was entertaining.
[02:06:01]  I wasn't quite latched onto it, but I was like, it's something I thought about for a couple of weeks.
[02:06:06]  And the reason being is I was like, God, maybe it's interdimensional, time traveler, you know, periodic visitation, interplanetary, you know, maybe it's just all of that, right?
[02:06:20]  Big universe.
[02:06:21]  And so I thought about that.
[02:06:25]  But I would say that the most, this is all speculation, but I would say informed speculation that the only conclusion that I've really drawn is that, and I've said this before, there's an omnipresent intelligence that has the ability to manifest itself in a multitude of ways.
[02:06:47]  Like it's nuts and bolts, but it's also psychic.
[02:06:50]  And they have a sense of humor at times.
[02:06:53]  A lot of the people within the scientific community that I've met with would give me a number of instances where they, I was like, that's a bit of a relief.
[02:07:00]  They have a sense of humor.
[02:07:01]  That's kind of cool.
[02:07:03]  But that it's an omnipresent, it's everywhere, right?
[02:07:06]  And that it can just, I guess the people describe like it just appeared out of nowhere, you know, or just disappeared, like it almost disappeared in place.
[02:07:12]  Like, you know, maybe, maybe they're operating in a slightly different dimension.
[02:07:17]  And maybe, maybe you just like a radio, you adjust the frequency a little bit and all of a sudden something appears.
[02:07:22]  It's always there, but you have to adjust, you know, maybe.
[02:07:25]  Maybe it's that.
[02:07:27]  Maybe it's time travelers.
[02:07:28]  Maybe it's us coming back from the future.
[02:07:29]  Or maybe it's all the above.
[02:07:30]  I honestly don't know.
[02:07:33]  But whatever it is, it's far more complex than just interplanetary visitation.

=== Adjusting the Frequency (01:43) ===

[02:07:38]  No question.
[02:07:39]  Great answer.
[02:07:42]  All right.
[02:07:43]  That was an amazing two hours.
[02:07:45]  Do you remember my favorite color?
[02:07:47]  Blue.
[02:07:48]  Yes, but it's dark blue.
[02:07:49]  Dark blue, sir.
[02:07:50]  I like dark blue.
[02:07:51]  Midnight blues.
[02:07:53]  Look at that.
[02:07:53]  That's like a kind of a grayish, you know.
[02:07:55]  Do you mind if I keep you for an extra 20 after this just for the extra little interview?
[02:08:01]  Okay.
[02:08:01]  But before we do that, if you guys want to check out anything at all, I highly encourage you to binge watch this man's just library.
[02:08:10]  Go down the rabbit hole.
[02:08:12]  My personal, one of my personal favorite documentaries of all time is Moment of Contact.
[02:08:16]  We talked about Virginia stuff.
[02:08:17]  If you haven't seen that, please go watch that.
[02:08:20]  Go watch the phenomenon.
[02:08:21]  Go watch the program.
[02:08:23]  Go watch everything under the sun that James Fox has ever put out.
[02:08:26]  You will not be disappointed and you will be more well informed than anyone else.
[02:08:32]  And so, highly encourage you guys to check that out.
[02:08:35]  I'll leave James's links below, including his, his ex, his, his Instagram, all the, all the above, all the above.
[02:08:43]  When you say my ex, literally, Twitter.
[02:08:45]  Yeah, I hate being it, but I also don't want to sound like I'm not hip.
[02:08:49]  Yeah, I'll leave all the links below.
[02:08:53]  And if you guys want to tune in for an extra little discussion, we're going to go deep into the SCIF, and this will not be public, but it'll be available to the interns for five bucks a month.
[02:09:04]  You guys know the deal.
[02:09:05]  You can do all that.
[02:09:06]  Join the Discord, join the Patreon, join the memberships, join the conversation, and we'll see you guys on the next video.
[02:09:13]  James, thank you so much.
[02:09:14]  Thanks for having me on.
[02:09:16]  All right, we can take a little break.
[02:09:18]  You want to take a little break?
[02:09:18]  You want to keep steamrolling through?
[02:09:19]  Let's roll.
[02:09:20]  All right, that's right.
[02:09:21]  We're right here.