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May 21, 1996 - Bill Cooper
58:54
James Nichols
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Time Text
*Mario plays*
Thank you.
yeah I'm Pooh.
And I'm William Cooper.
You're listening to the Hour of the Time.
I'm Pooh.
And I'm William Cooper.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Say goodnight.
Goodnight.
I'll be in to tuck you in.
Alright.
Ladies and gentlemen, tonight we have a very special guest.
And I hope some of the rumors and misconceptions and lies and...
We're all going to get cleared up, and I hope that some facts are going to come out, but either way, you're going to get to hear from somebody you haven't been able to hear from, and I think that is the most important thing of all.
All of this Oklahoma City bombing rhetoric has been one-sided, and it has been a state of propaganda the likes of which the United States of America has never seen before in its entire history.
It is reminiscent of Joseph Goebbels in Nazi Germany.
I think he would be extremely proud of what he has taught the communist news networks and the Marxist, Socialist, Feudalist, hopeful New World robber barons.
Don't go away.
You're going to want to hear every word of tonight's broadcast.
Yes.
Thank you.
With a finger crossed Ever but I know The war is over Ever but I know Good guys lost Ever but I know That the fight was this The poor single The least hit me That's how it goes Ever but I know
Good guys Ever but I know That the poor single The least hit me Ever but I know That the captain of the hand Ever but I Got this broken gun In the hand Like a martyr Or a dog Well,
James Nichols, James Nichols, welcome to the Hour of the Time.
Thank you, Bill.
I want to thank you profusely for agreeing to do this interview tonight, and I hope that we're able to get your side of the story out here the way that you would like to tell it, and I hope that we're able to clear up some of the rumors and and I hope that we're able to clear up some of the rumors and misconceptions, outright lies, and let people know at least what it is that you believe are
About the Oklahoma City bombing and the participation of your brother Terry and Tim McVeigh, if any.
We can try for an hour.
That's short, but it takes a long time.
Well, if it takes that long and you want to come back, by golly, we'll make the time available for you.
I'm always willing to talk.
Well, let's start off just by pointing out, how did you get involved in this in the first place?
Uh, simply, uh, Tim, when Tim McVeigh was arrested, he gave an address as my address.
its attention on for at least the initial few days, if not a couple of weeks there in the beginning? - Simply, when Tim McVay was arrested, he gave an address as my address.
He put my name down on his arrest card, supposedly.
I've yet to get a copy of that, and certain people are supposed to get me a copy, and they have not gotten me a copy.
I've been promised by more than one investigating reporter that they'd get me a copy of it.
I haven't got it yet.
Would one of those have been Larry Myers?
Ah, the stupid devil!
He tells a lot of untruths, doesn't he?
Well, he's promised me and promised me and never delivered anything to me.
Well, while we're on that subject, let's get to another one.
Larry Myers recently published an article and gave information to other reporters who subsequently published those articles that the Hour of the Time was the favorite shortwave radio program of Tim McVeigh and that he listened to this broadcast all the time.
Is there any truth to that?
And bear in mind, I have no idea whatsoever.
Yes, there is some truth to that.
Tell us about it.
I became familiar of it when Tim was staying here, off and on different times.
That's where I became familiar with you.
Did he listen to this broadcast all the time?
Well, I wouldn't say all the time, but quite often.
Was it his favorite?
Chance to.
Was it his favorite broadcast?
I couldn't say whether it was his favorite or not, but it was a good one.
Liked it.
I kind of liked it, too.
Well, I'm glad that you did, and I'm glad that he did.
I'm glad that all of the people who listen to this broadcast... You've had very interesting information and speakers on guests in the past.
Always.
Well, the goal here is to try to... Truth is not boring.
That's correct.
As the national media try to portray it as.
That's correct.
We're not that stupid out here.
No, I don't believe that some Americans are that stupid.
I have come to believe that the vast majority of what I call the sheeple are lost in stupidity, if you will.
Yes, yes.
I educated three teenagers yesterday from a local school.
I came to investigate me for a psychology class.
I said, well, I'm sorry, but this is Law 101 here.
Well, let's get back to the Larry Myers thing.
His intent with publishing that statement was, of course, to vilify the hour of the time and by implication say that the hour of the time No.
But you forgot to include the Turner Diaries in that, which the government has said that's why it was blown up, because they read the Turner Diaries.
in Oklahoma City.
Do you believe that to be true?
No, but you forgot to include the Turner Diaries in that, which the government has said that's why it was blown up, because they read the Turner Diaries.
And to respond to that, as I've said on Dateline and other programs, which they didn't allow to go on the air, was that, well, then the government people got together and saw clear and present danger and blew it up themselves.
Fair is fair.
Well, yeah.
That's a good analogy.
I mean, if that's the mentality they're going to use, we can use it too.
Yes, we can.
But that's how they got here by Tim giving an address as to here.
But yet they stand, Wilkinson stands in open court denying and saying that the government had no knowledge of Timothy McVeigh until April 21st.
Well we know that is a lie because we know that Timothy McVeigh was under surveillance for quite some time before the Oklahoma Federal Building blew up.
Were you aware of that?
I have read that since I was released from prison a year ago and two days.
I have an anniversary coming up tomorrow and the next day.
Why do you think Timothy McVeigh would have been under surveillance by the government?
Or by other people?
Because he, the only reason I can come up with is because he was at Waco selling politically incorrect bumper stickers.
He was too obvious, too out front.
And he made sense.
A highly decorated young man from the Gulf War.
And he came directly from Waco to my house.
So you knew Tim McVeigh.
How long before this catastrophe occurred did you know Tim McVeigh?
He came to visit here when my brother Terry was living here in late 91, early 92.
And that was because they were army buddies?
Terry just said an old army buddy has come to buy the visit.
Okay.
When did they leave the army?
Terry left in what?
Spring of 89, I believe.
And how about Terry?
Terry, that was Terry when he left.
Oh, Terry left in spring.
Kim left just shortly in 91, I think, or something, or 90.
I'm not sure exactly where.
Were they together in the Gulf War?
No, Terry never went anywhere.
He got a hardship discharge.
He had a 7 or 8 year old son there with him.
He was a chauffeur for one of the top brass there.
They were ordered to go to Germany and they said, Nichols, we know what the situation is.
We'll give you a hardship discharge.
You better be careful now.
Hardship discharge.
You better be careful now.
I had a hardship discharge.
That's right.
And, you know, they let him out.
And he's fine.
They let him out because he's a thinker.
Because he's a free thinker.
He wouldn't sit around doing nothing.
And he was chewed out several times for doing something when he was supposed to be sitting doing nothing.
Well, I certainly understand.
That's not what the Army wants.
No, it's not.
It's not what any of the military services want.
He was too bright, too smart.
Get him out of there.
How deep was this friendship between Terry and Tim?
Well, they were good friends.
I became good friends with Tim.
Tim stayed with me after Terry moved out in December of 93.
Tim stayed for a couple more months.
Did you have any feeling at all at any time that either Tim or Terry or Terry and Tim together were involved in something that might lead to the bombing of the New York Federal Building?
No.
No, absolutely not.
I wasn't aware.
We were joking around.
A neighbor called me at 11 o'clock that morning saying, Hey, I hear they're raiding a farmhouse in Decker in the bottom of Michigan.
Are they raiding your house?
Oh yeah, they're sitting out in the driveway waiting for me to come out of the house.
Just jokingly.
And I looked back at that day and I think, did the guy actually know something trying to warn me?
No, he didn't know anything.
Everyone knew in this whole sum they were going to raid my house except me.
Wow.
I mean, people were trying to call me from uptown to tell me, hey, they're going to raid your house.
I was on the phone talking with the other neighbor.
Well, what happened that day?
I mean, you... No, I left at 2 o'clock.
Went to Marlette, 15 miles south.
Uh, just to run some errands.
I was gone for one hour.
I came back and I actually passed, uh, must have been some of the FBI or ATF in cars, didn't know it.
And I didn't realize that they were heading north until I run into, uh, some media trucks.
Big satellites, there's trucks and helicopters.
Half mile behind, that was an ambulance screaming down the road and I goes, wow.
Whoever it was, whoever housed their raiding, They already shot the guy because there goes the ambulance right behind the news truck.
So if you had been involved in the Oklahoma City near a federal building bombing, if you had seen all of this happening, you certainly wouldn't have gone home, would you?
I came up the road and two miles away I could see there was something going on.
At finally about half, three-quarters of a mile away I could see they were at my house.
And I almost panicked, you know, kind of in the shock, saying, wait a minute, they made a mistake.
I've got to straighten this out, you know.
Your first instinct is, man, I've got to run, but, no, no, I've got to straighten this out.
They made a mistake.
They got the wrong house, the wrong address.
Well, I don't blame you for being afraid, especially after Waco, but, um, well.
And they, I said, wait a minute, I've got to straighten this out.
And I pulled up there and no one knew what was going on.
So they're all surrounding your house, guns pointed at your house, and you get out of your car and calmly walk up, and what did you say?
Well, I just, uh, my window doesn't work on that driver's side, like good electric windows.
And I just pointed my finger at this thing, you know, come here, officer, state trooper.
Uh-huh.
Come over there, I open my door, I might say, what's going on here?
He says, who are you?
I demanded, what's going on here?
Who are you?
I demand it.
I said, I want to know what's going on here.
Who are you?
I live in that house right there, and this is a quarter mile away.
It's a roadblock.
And he says, uh, I identified myself.
I said, now, I want to know what's going on here.
He didn't know what to do.
All the cameras were pointed at the house, and I'm going, gee, they don't even know what's going on here.
This big, big guy here, you know, this Decker bomber is here at the corner so close to everyone, everyone's looking at the house.
That sounds like a good movie.
Trooper officer stood there not knowing what to do.
He didn't know whether to come and grab me or go get a couple FBI agents.
Uh-huh.
He stood there with his jaw hanging open going, ah, ah, ah, ah, back and forth.
I says, they don't even know who they're looking for.
I got out and identified myself again and they searched me.
Are you armed?
No, I'm not armed.
And then they searched my car.
Am I under arrest?
No, no, no.
And what do you got in the trunk?
Gee, uh, this is normal stuff, you know?
A couple bags of wheat I was taking over to the preacher to make bread with.
Uh, I opened the trunk up and they were so paranoid.
Real slow.
And then they made a deal with, come on down to the house, I want to talk to you.
And we went through that scenario three times.
Now, you're going to follow me right down to the house.
Yep, yep, I'm going to follow you.
And we're going to call them on the radio and tell them you're coming.
We went through that scenario three times, because I didn't want any mistakes.
Sure.
Didn't like what was going on.
And I hopped in my car, and I went down, came down to my house.
I didn't even get pulled off the road.
And this JVT jumped into my car, on the passenger side, pointing a gun at me.
A rifle.
Don't move!
And I'm arguing with him, telling him, hey, I'm with these guys, they're right behind me, you know?
And blah blah, didn't they call you on the radio?
And blah blah blah blah, you know?
All they could do was yell, don't move.
And I got real upset.
Finally, it seemed like it took them forever, but they finally come along and say, hey, that's okay.
He's with us.
Leave him alone.
He's okay.
Let him out.
Let him out.
He's okay.
I got out of the car and I just said, what the hell is going on here?
I thought you said he was going to be behind me.
I thought you said you was going to call him on the radio.
Oh, we forgot.
It's a long way to forget.
You think they were hoping somebody would do something stupid?
I really got suspicious and I was real careful after that.
Because I didn't like the way things were done.
That was a setup I found.
I didn't like what was going on there.
The guy was awful trigger happy.
Well, let's go back to my original point, James.
If you had had any part in blowing up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, You would not have gone up to that roadblock and identified yourself and asked why they're around your house?
No, I wouldn't.
If I grew up somewhere like that, I wouldn't have been here, period.
And by the same token, if Tim McVeigh had anything to do with the explosion at the Muir Federal Building and he was armed, do you think he would allow himself to be disarmed and arrested by one patrol officer on the highway?
No way.
He'd have wasted him and drove away.
Now this is a trained, combat experienced Army veteran who has killed people before.
Yes, yes.
He wouldn't, I know Tim McVeigh I think well enough to where he would not have put my name down as supposedly next of kin or someone to contact in case of emergency or something.
He put my address, which was on his driver's license, this address, and he put the person to contact.
It says next of kin and he put James Nichols, friend.
If he was in trouble into something like that, he would not involve an innocent person and get them involved in any way, shape or form, knowingly.
Now let me ask you a point of order.
He would take his punishment and shut up.
Not drag innocent people into it.
Well that's certainly the feeling of a lot of his Old Army buddies is that Tim would have taken whatever fell on his shoulders like a man and would not have implicated anybody else.
That's right.
This is what they all tell us.
But that's part of the problem right now also.
We're being kept from communicating, me, myself, and my buddy Bob.
From communicating with who James?
Timothy McVeigh.
We cannot communicate with him.
We send letters to him.
I filled out a form the middle of April to get on his telephone calling list to be approved.
I haven't received any phone calls from him yet.
I keep telling him to call me.
Bob keeps writing letters to him, telling him to call us, call me, write us, anything.
And Jones is playing games with him.
Things are not right.
What do you think about Jones?
He's a capable attorney, but I don't trust him.
Do you know his history?
A little bit.
Do you know he is famous for defending communists, radicals, people who have, well Angela Davis for one.
That's Stephen Jones?
Yeah.
Well, Mike Tiger kind of has the same reputation, I was told.
Why do you think these people are defending Timothy McVeigh?
Well, we just don't trust Jones, and we've called him right to his face.
And we would rather remain enemies and see Terry and Tim walk free than remain friends and see them fried.
We've talked with Stephen Jones on many occasions, and we don't know if we can trust him.
Michael Tiger is much better.
He's more likable, more trustworthy.
Well, if the people that we believe actually blew up the New York Federal Building did in fact blow it up, then Jones has a history of being at their beck and call.
He has always been the one that the Communist Party goes to to defend their people when they're in trouble.
What do you think about that?
I'm not sure if I understand you totally there.
I know he's, Jones is kind of a government man, so to speak, and I've seen him perform in Oklahoma and seen him perform in Denver.
And the job that he's done in Denver in April was much better than anything I saw in Oklahoma.
Whether he's out of the reach of Governor Keating there or what, I don't know.
He feels a little more freer or what.
But he's done a much better job in Denver than he's done in Oklahoma.
And why would a private practicing attorney be under the control of Governor Keating?
Well, Governor Keating is personal counsel.
I've seen the plaque on his wall in his office.
Oh boy, it gets deeper and deeper, doesn't it?
Yes.
Oh brother, well... Who had the power and the authority to fill in the crater out there by the building?
And who had the authority to take the building down and destroy the evidence and haul it away?
It certainly wasn't Mr. Jones or Mr. Tiger or Terry or Kim to the fence at all.
The government did.
Well, that's true.
We all know that, and they shouldn't have.
It's destruction of evidence.
It's a perversion of justice.
It's all kinds of things.
Right, right, right.
A lot of people in America, they're starting to come around, but there's a lot of them that need to be woken up yet.
Tell me about it.
Listen, James, let me ask you point blank.
Do you believe, or do you have any reason to believe, or do you think at all that Tim McVeigh And or, either one, or together, Terry Nichols had anything to do with the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in any capacity whatsoever.
Terry did not have anything to do with it.
Tim may have been, and I say may, have been involved in a sting operation and made to be the fall guy.
Well, your opinion certainly parallels Our research.
I mean, what we've been seeing and what we've been hearing with Hoppy Heidelberg being kicked off the Grand Jury.
Well, that's strictly because of Larry Myers' machinations.
Yes, yes.
Very intriguing, how do I say, laying of a trap or very elusive plan.
Boy, there's something funny there, too.
From the moment I met Larry Myers.
I just said, Bob, he's a government agent.
He's slick, isn't he?
I sat hustling for four hours one day at a restaurant and talking to him.
Bob done a lot of talking.
I listened and analyzed.
And that man tried to look right through me.
I just said, he's a government man.
He ain't getting anything out of me.
I mean, he's done a nice article on Tim.
And I think it was the February issue where I told Lawrence about the accident that Tim stopped at and actually it kind of embarrassed Jones a little bit.
He didn't know about it either.
Well, that's not what we understand.
We understand that Jones allowed him to interview and to write that article in exchange for something else.
Yes, but Jones didn't know anything about this incident.
Which incident was that?
Where Tim stopped on I-70 along the Indiana-Illinois border and helped save a guy.
Put an IV in him and they've blown it up I think a little bit, credited him with saving the guy's life.
1990 I think it was.
And Tim was surprised that anyone knew about it.
He only told two or three people.
And we keep telling Jones that we can help.
We can help.
And he won't let us.
He doesn't want our help.
And we can't trust him.
He won't let us communicate with Tim.
Tim called me the 23rd of August, complaining to me that they were confiscating all his mail.
He wasn't getting any of it.
He's not getting any mail at all?
At that time.
Is he getting mail now?
Yes.
Supposedly, he hasn't mentioned anything lately.
I'm on his phone list now, but he hasn't called.
And that's the thing that worries me.
I just think he's been set up.
You think he'll make it to trial?
Yeah, I think so.
He's made it this far.
We were really worried about that in Oklahoma.
Well, we were worried about it too.
And especially the transfer.
Gary told us about the transfer when he was out there in April.
It was a real joke.
A laughable situation, he said.
What happened?
Well, they jumped into a bus, and they only had 100 feet to go, and they tried to move the bus, and the air had leaked out of the brake system, and it wouldn't move, so they had to pull it up with a squad car.
He says it was a joke.
You know, government gone, haywire.
security, you know, people standing around at 3 o'clock in the morning.
Oh, they jumped in the squad car and only one officer in the back with them.
Down the way, down!
They only went 100 feet into the building and, oh, it was, he said it was a real joke.
James, did you ever meet this man who's described as John Doe number two?
No.
Do you have any idea who this person might be?
No.
No, only that he must certainly exist because there's enough people I can guarantee you he exists.
I believe that too.
Like Hoppy Heidelberg does.
There is no doubt that he exists.
But the problem is, when I was being interrogated April 21st a year ago, last year, by the statements that the FBI made to me to try to get me to talk more and tell them more, or make up more stories I guess, I came to the conclusion by what they said that someone had been watching us for a long time.
I've told you already.
We know for a fact, we have irrefutable proof that Tim McVeigh and John Doe No.
2 were under surveillance for months before the Murrah Federal Building was blown up.
I'm talking two years.
Well, it could be.
We have proof that they were definitely under surveillance for months.
From the day that Tim McVeigh left Waco and came here, we were all under surveillance.
And because of the paperwork that we filed in the local courthouse, we became prime suspects for conviction in the media.
To convict us in the media as government haters, and they wouldn't even have to hold trial.
So you know yourself that you were under surveillance, Tim McVeigh was under surveillance, and your brother Terry?
Time it was going on.
Pardon?
Not at the time it was going on, but since the raid, yes.
How do you know if you didn't know at the time that it was going on?
Because I've read some articles and things where certain people have admitted that, yes, they've been watching Tim McVeigh for over two years.
Yes, well... They knew that he was going to do something like this.
I think they knew exactly what was going to happen.
And they knew if they were watching Tim McVeigh for over two years, they were also watching me and Terry.
Because we were also here.
Tim was here sometimes.
Well let me tell you what our investigation has brought forward.
We believe that they were not only under surveillance, but that John Doe, number two, was most probably the instigator of the whole thing and is a paid government informant or agent or provocateur, and that they allowed this whole thing to happen, just like the FBI and that they allowed this whole thing to happen, just like the FBI helped them make the bomb and set it up and detonated at the World Trade Center in Right, yes.
And that it was going to be a big sting-like thing that would give them a lot of glory and shuck off all of the disgrace from Waco, and they screwed up.
I believe that the bomb was supposed to go off before the people got to work, and for some reason, nothing was coordinated.
Yes.
What do you think?
I believe somewhat quite a bit of that.
I think there was actually some bombs placed inside by an intelligence organization, CIA, NSA.
Who knows what?
Well, it wouldn't have been the NSA because they don't do that kind of thing.
They monitor communications and decipher code.
But the CIA is not above such things.
They've been doing those things for many, many years.
That's their... Oh, yes.
And look what's happened to William Colby.
What's that?
Well, you know, he died of a heart attack while canoeing, don't you?
Is it?
No.
They're planned.
But we suspect that someone was impersonating Tim.
We're pretty sure of that from our little investigation that we've done and the people we've talked to in Oklahoma and like that.
Terry, we suspect someone was impersonating him once or twice, a couple times.
At one time they were saying when this thing first started that they were saying that I was and they had witnesses of all three of us out there in Kansas and like that and it turns out that I have such good alibis and witnesses and bills of sale and phone records that it was totally impossible for me to be out there.
I had perfect alibis and I don't like using the word alibis.
Alibi merely means a story for where you were.
Yes.
Nothing disgraceful about that.
No, but I don't like their words.
I was here and we happened to run across some articles of saying that a man at a motel out there had someone check into the motel using my name and I'm going my theory is starting to come The light, the truth.
So you think that there were several different McVeys and Terry Nichols, just like there were several different Oswalds?
Well, there was at least two McVeys and at least one Terry, and I think they was having somebody impersonate me, too.
But when they found out that I had the perfect alibis with actual witnesses every night for a week before the bombing, they dropped that like a hot potato.
They wouldn't even talk about it anymore.
The FBI wouldn't.
Everybody we've talked with tells us that Tim McVeigh is an extremely intelligent individual.
Do you believe that he would drive a getaway car with no license plate?
No way.
No way.
He wouldn't do that.
Terry or I, we might do that.
I would do it.
I mean, a car without a plate on it.
I just done it the other night.
Well, getting away from the scene of a crime?
No.
No.
Well, that's...
If he that much of a martyr, uh, if he was, he would have shot the cop.
And if he's such a hater, like they say, I know him better than that.
Um... Yeah.
It's... Things don't fit.
Someone... Tim Combat parks his car.
Now, I've combat parked for 20 years and didn't know what it was until Tim came along and told me, oh, you combat park, huh?
What?
What are you talking about?
What are you talking about?
Uh huh.
What are you talking about?
Well, when you go to park in a parking lot somewhere, you go to the bar or something, or shopping, you always park with your license plate against the trees or the bushes or a building or something so that you drive out of the parking spot not to have to back out.
It's called combat, jokingly, it's called combat parking.
So you can just hop in your car and make a fast getaway.
A guy with no license plate would have no need to do that, would he?
Except to not have to turn around or back out and maneuver.
If you combat park, you don't pass your license plate getting in your vehicle.
Someone else has a chance to take it off because they know that you combat park.
And you're not going to go around back to see if you've got a plate on because you know you always got one.
And it's very convenient.
You drive away not knowing you don't have a plate on.
Why do you think he would always park like that?
What's the purpose of that?
I've done it for 20 years and not known it.
It's just around here we do it because the cops just systematically go through the bar parking lot and get every patron there is sooner or later.
Everyone gets their turn.
So you try to protect yourself.
By backing against the building so they can't get your plate number.
I see.
So it doesn't have anything to do with getting away quick?
No.
I've always parked my pickup like that because you've got to back up sooner or later.
If you're in a hurry to go to town to get a park and you've got five minutes, you jump in it and you go.
You don't want to be full around backing up.
I'll take my time and back up in the spot that I park in when I park it there.
Now there's some stories being touted around that you guys built some bombs and blew them up on your farm.
Is that true?
There was pop bottle bombs made.
What do you mean by pop bottle bombs?
They were some chemicals mixed together and just in a plastic one pint or one liter or not one liter but a pint sized bottle.
20 ounce bottles and just thrown out in the driveway and some of them blew up and some of them didn't.
And what was the purpose of that, James?
Kids play.
And it really wasn't him and Terry that were doing it.
It was another man and Terry doing it.
And I just, I said, you guys are acting like kids.
And I went and done something different, you know.
I made a little pill vial bomb to loosen my soybeans up to get them out of the grain bin in April of 94.
That's common practice among farmers that have grain bins and have trouble when they can't get their grain out.
And I made it out of black powder.
Pyrodex.
Synthetic black powder for your muzzleloader.
And that's what they tried to hammer me with.
Making the top out of bombs and that little bomb.
But I didn't use it to harm anyone or threaten anybody or damage anybody's property.
Sad thing is The same thing that I was charged with, there have been many, many people served prison time for the exact same thing.
And there is no law there.
You say there is no law.
What do you mean?
No law against doing it?
Yes.
It's only a Congress statute.
Title 26, Section 5861.
Where's the Code of Federal Regulations to implement that statute?
They don't care.
That's right.
They don't care anymore.
That's how we challenged them.
And they backed off.
It's very plain and obvious what it says.
Any person involved in the business of a dealer, manufacturer, or importer has got to do 14 other paragraphs.
That's not me.
But their lawyers pleaded them out.
That's what happens.
The Supreme Court decides that a law is unconstitutional.
They leave it on the books, and their lawyers will plead you out.
Huh.
A sad shame.
But, uh, I was smart enough.
I've read enough law to get me in trouble and know how to get out a little bit.
Well, good for you.
With the help of a lot of others.
How is Terry taking this?
We have seen photographs and heard testimony from witnesses that Terry, when he has appeared in public in the courtroom, is like somebody in another world.
It's like he's a zombie or something.
Is that true?
Terry is a very private, reserved, calm individual.
Very sober, very serious all the time.
It's hard to have a conversation with him when he don't want to talk.
So you think that this is a normal condition for him?
Yeah, it's normal.
He's upset because I just talked, he called me last Saturday.
He's upset because they're still saying, a week ago when Mike Tiger was on Nightline, and they're still saying, they said I said this and that at the Harrington Police Department.
Because I never said that.
And they're still promoting misinformation, the government is.
Well, James, I gotta say, there's nothing new about that.
No, no.
That seems to be their stock in trade.
Lies, deception, manipulation.
I was watching the Randy Weaver special tonight, second half, and that brings back a lot of memories of how they lied to the family.
That brings a lot of memories back of last year when they lied to government.
The FBI lied to my mother and my sister and my brother and everybody around here.
And it really affected them bad.
And I just said, look.
Believe in your heart.
You know I haven't done anything.
And then they tried to turn them against me.
And I said, start asking questions.
They're lying to you.
I don't have any reason to lie.
And they finally start seeing, and boy, when they found the truth out, did they get mad.
Now they've got a bunch more of government haters on their hands.
So to speak.
Well, I don't think any of us, none of us hate the government.
The government is the constitution of the Bill of Rights.
We hate these scum-sucking, lying, puke-faced, communist, socialist pigs that are in control of our government now.
These Nazi jack-booted thugs who murder people and destroy people and think nothing.
Of any of it.
And no one is held responsible for it.
That's right.
In fact, they're given medals and promoted.
Yes.
It's sickening.
There's a very interesting thing about the Oklahoma there is the one witness, David Snyder, that saw the second Ryder truck at approximately the same time and everything.
Different Ryder truck.
And he was interviewed by Bob Ricks.
And the other guy in charge of Oklahoma, I think Kennedy is his name?
Yes.
And all of a sudden, Bob Ricks, you know, quite a while ago, no longer works for the FBI.
He works for the governor for the state of Oklahoma.
Public Safety Commissioner or something like that?
Yes.
I just have a question of what happened to the 302 of the interview with David Snyder?
Did it go with Bob Ricks, or what happened to it?
How can you interview a man, a witness, an eyewitness, in ten minutes?
We interviewed him, and it takes twenty minutes to half an hour, at least.
Well, it should, if you're going to really go after facts and truth.
And they spent ten minutes with him, and never talked with him again.
And no record?
Well, that remains to be seen.
To specifically bring it up when they get the computers working well, the defense attorneys like that, the CD-ROMs like that.
See what they actually put down, because they didn't take him to the grand jury or anything.
No, it's the whole thing.
That's wrong.
So you don't think Terry was involved in this at all?
No.
And you think Tim might have been, but if he was, he was what, a patsy?
More or less unknowingly involved.
Yeah, he was used as a Patsy.
He's been set up as a Patsy.
Yeah, definitely.
What makes you think that Tim may have been involved?
Well, he may not have been.
He may have a little bit, but I hate saying that.
Well, I understand why you would hate saying that.
Someone was impersonating him.
It's real obvious.
Well, we know that that is true.
We know that someone was impersonating Timothy McVeigh.
There's no doubt about that.
Right.
We haven't found any reason to believe that anybody was impersonating Terry Nichols, but we may run across that at a later time.
In fact, I'm going to have Michelle talk to you about that, and we'll run that down.
Maybe Tim just drove a truck to Oklahoma and hopped in his car and it goes off.
Maybe somebody else impersonated him right to the very last minute or something.
Did you ever hear Tim mention the name of somebody named William Taylor?
Not that I can remember.
Daniel Spiegelman?
Not that I can remember.
Okay.
William Taylor is a common name around here.
I've known one locally, I think, or something like that.
Okay.
What do you think about the way that Tim and Terry are being treated in prison?
Well, when they were being treated in Oklahoma, it was very harsh.
No physical contact visits.
The guards were not even nice out there.
I mean, they were halfway nice, but the whole situation has improved 100% in Denver.
The guards in Denver, from my visit out there, it's been a lot better.
The guards just even said, look, we don't even know if he's guilty of anything.
Well, that's the way the whole nation should be looking at it.
He hasn't been convicted of any crime, either one of them.
Exactly, but the Oklahoma situation is so The guards were, you know, they were affected also.
I mean, even the governor was just, they got something to cover up.
Someone does.
You know, the governor or something, by his actions and what he has said and things, the outrage that he's, and the emotions that he has stirred up, stuff.
Well, isn't Governor Keating the one who claims to have been the first one to find the axle with the serial number that supposedly led to the Ryder truck in which the alleged explosives were housed?
That's what I heard.
Well, that was the announcement on the news that the news made.
He said that he found it.
When it became too much for anybody to believe that the governor would just stumble over this axle and find the serial number that led to the suspects, then all of a sudden this other guy comes forward, this real slick policeman who obviously had been trained in media techniques, and he tells the story about how he found it.
Yeah.
There's too many coincidences.
Had a chance to look into the manuscript that Governor Keating's brother wrote, which outlines almost exactly the same thing that happened to the New York Federal Building?
No, I haven't seen any of the printing of it, but I've heard about excerpts of it like that.
But no, I haven't.
Do you think it's a coincidence that the lead character was named McVeigh?
No, no.
Now, who was he talking to?
Supposedly McVeigh was up in the Murrah building the week before or something, a few days before the bombing, talking to Dr... I forget his name.
Anyhow, that man, Dr. Heath, I think it is, actually came out here to Michigan and was interviewing people around, within six miles of my dad's house.
For what?
Good question.
That is what he told my dad in the bathroom in Oklahoma in the courthouse one day.
And I just said, well, did you ask him why?
Why is he out in Michigan interviewing people about, I guess, us, the Nichols family?
Uh, I don't know.
I find that very suspicious, you know?
Something's up.
I don't know.
What do you think is going to happen, James?
Boy, it's anybody's guess.
Yet, if the truth comes out, I know they're going to have an awful, awful hard time on getting a conviction on anyone.
Terry, we're pretty sure is going to walk.
Him, I don't know because we don't get to talk to him.
They're keeping him totally isolated away from anyone.
Everyone except media people.
And they're not helping him, which we have objected to very strongly, as strong as we can.
I know what they're doing.
They're doing psychological warfare.
They have done it since day one, trying to break these guys down to get them to admit to something.
Well, they can prosecute them.
So you think they're telling one that the other one squealed, and they're telling the other one that the other one squealed on him, and working all these good guy, bad guy, your buddy's turned against you, and all this stuff?
It's like 48, you know.
There's a guy that, you know, the government said, oh, he's a successful liar, and then they're star witness.
I pity the poor guy because he's not going to hold up on the cross-examination with Jones and Tiger, especially Tiger.
It's hair of a part.
And if the guy is guilty and helped in the so-called planning of the bombing, and casing the joint like he's admitted to and things, and they found him guilty, why haven't they sentenced him?
They're holding that over his head, telling him, if you don't perform well, this trial doesn't go well.
You don't stick to your story and make it believable.
You're going to go to prison for longer than, what, 23 or 26 years?
Well, that's a normal trick that they use all the time.
Right, right.
But why don't they send him and get on with the whole show?
I don't know.
I don't know a lot of things that I would like to know.
Oh, that's the thing.
If we all knew the truth, we'd all be better off.
Did you ever meet Fortier?
No.
What's his first name?
Michael Fortier.
Michael Fortier.
Have you ever seen him without a beard?
I've never seen a picture of him until I see him on television, I think.
Did he have a beard?
I think so, then, or goatee.
And when he was arrested, he had a beard.
Full beard.
Was it a beard?
Yeah.
I know he had some hair there, but... I've never seen a picture of him, I don't think, unless it was just, you know, From the Tim head, just casual, you know.
So you never met him at all?
No, no.
Do you think he could be John Doe number two?
Uh, no.
No.
What makes you say no?
Too skinny.
Not dark, complex enough.
I mean, according to the pictures and everything we've seen, the witnesses, unless you've got some better information.
You know, I'm clearer out here in Michigan than you guys are closer to it than I am.
Oh, we have all kinds of information that nobody even knows yet.
And a lot of it's going to come out with this first volume of the book that we're writing.
um, But the real devastating evidence for the government is contained in Volume 1 and Volume 2, which It's going to knock their legs right out from under them.
They're lying on almost everything that they've ever said.
Oh yes, they've fabricated everything.
Yes.
Everything.
And the people are going to have a hard time accepting that.
Some will, some won't.
Well, in light of the evidence, you see, we're not just saying it.
We documented it.
Right.
I realize that.
You guys have done an excellent job.
I love Michelle for what she's done there and you.
I wish we could do the same.
It takes time.
Well, it takes dedicated people who are willing to sacrifice in order to get the job done.
That's what it takes.
And praying that someone that has seen something would step forward and could prove more yet.
Yes.
That's what we need.
They will, and they do, a few at a time, here and there.
They come forward.
Yes.
And when they do, we document it and we back it up with testimony from other people who've come forward.
None of them know each other or about each other, and it's devastating.
They all tell the same story.
The government is lying on almost everything they've ever said from day one right up to the present time.
What I want is some of the government agents and officers to step forward.
Well, I doubt if you're going to see that.
Isn't it, wasn't it William Colby that brought the attention of the American people to what the CIA done?
And blew the whistle on them a little bit?
No, William Colby was practicing damage control and what they did is they threw the poor dog a bone instead of the steak that he deserved.
And so the public felt that the truth was told and the investigation was complete and they slapped a couple of wrists and that was it.
Colby did his job.
He protected the agency by throwing out a couple of bones.
That's the typical method of handling the public in those cases when they know that there's something to hide and they've got to assuage the public that it's been dealt with.
Yeah, right.
And the same thing happened in the Waco investigation.
They made the public feel like Congress looked into it and the truth came out and then guess what happened?
Nothing.
Right, nothing.
Nothing ever happens.
Right.
They threw the poor dog a bone.
And the poor dog, not realizing that there's a whole ham hock and a whole side of beef in the refrigerator, accepted the bone.
Right.
Right.
Gleefully.
James, we've just got a couple more minutes to go.
What would you like to tell the American people that you haven't told them?
Or what needs to be told?
Or what would you like to have say on behalf of Terry or Tim?
More people will step forward.
They have no reason to be scared.
I've been there.
There's no reason to be scared.
What are they going to do?
Throw you in jail?
When you show no fear, they can't scare you anymore.
By golly, I've been trying to teach the American people that for a long time.
And people just leave, you know?
Well, aren't you afraid of what you're going to say?
They might throw you back in jail.
What are they going to do?
Throw me in prison?
I've already been there.
And it doesn't scare me.
That's the thing.
And I'm just an everyday common citizen like anyone else.
I may be a little outspoken, but I didn't ask to be outspoken.
I was a little bit outspoken before.
I'm outspoken where Terry's quieter.
But if you ask me what I think, I'll tell you.
A lot of people don't like that.
But we need the truth in this country.
The truth will set us free.
That's what we need.
Why do you think with so little evidence against Terry that he's being held in such maximum security?
Because I was held the same way.
Why?
Because it's a big case.
One of the biggest cases in history.
But they have such little evidence.
I mean, they can't even prove really that Terry did anything.
Right.
I know.
In fact, I can't even figure out how they justify holding him.
Well, no one can.
Especially his attorneys.
Same thing happened to me.
There was no due process.
Denied bail.
No charges.
Fictitious.
Informant that they would never name.
I can name him.
John Doe number two.
Well, I mean, that specified that I was doing things informant of here in Michigan.
Oh, okay.
Well, there's several informants involved in this and there's a whole surveillance team and we believe Uh, that the ADL is probably deeply involved.
Absolutely.
I was being stalked last November by them, I believe.
Except they picked the wrong time to come watch me.
It was deer hunting time.
People get shot all the time.
Well now, I'm not for shooting anybody.
No, but hunters get shot all the time.
I catch anybody stalking me, and I will catch them.
Let's not say anything that might get you thrown back in there.
No, the sheriff will be summoned and they will have to identify themselves or someone will go into jail.
And I will call the militia even though I'm not part of them.
Well, good for you.
Well, we're out of time, James, and I want to thank you for being our guest tonight.
If you don't feel that you got out what you wanted to get out, or if you think that there's something else that we need to talk about, you call me or call Michelle, and we'll do this again real soon.
Talk again.
Okay?
Yes, Bill.
Thank you so much.
It's been a very good talk.
And tell Terry and Tim, if you can, that We don't know whether they're guilty or not, but we're trying our best to find out who is.
I'm going to send a subscription in for them for Veritas tomorrow.
Wonderful.
They can get it.
And then Larry Myers can print that they read my newspaper.
Good night, James.
Thank you, Bill.
Good night.
And good night, folks.
And God bless each and every single one of you.
Thank you.
I went for a walk Down by the river In my home With my home I'll never be My home will end
I'll never be
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