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April 10, 1996 - Bill Cooper
01:00:21
Michele Moore, OKC Book
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Time Text
*Piano music* You just can't let it get to you.
There's a pain in everything you do.
I'm not sure how to do this.
And I'm William Cooper.
You're listening to The Hour of the Time, and I'm Pooh.
And I'm William Cooper.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Thank you, sweetheart.
You're welcome.
I'll be in the turkey land later.
Oh, my.
Oh, my. my.
Follow the song along.
As she came rising through the dark No more to keep up a breath And no man to get her through this dark There is smoke tonight She said, I love you all
Thank you.
I want the kind of work I had before.
With a wedding dress, something white to wear, a song.
Oh, what happened now?
Oh, what happened what happened now?
Oh, what happened now?
You see, I've watched you ridin' almost every single day.
And there's somethin' in me that just yearns to win.
Such a girl is cold and such a girl alone.
of terrible sin.
Oh, my God.
Why do I need to find to the one that needs the trust?
Why do I come to my own favorite line?
And I love your solitude.
Oh, how I love your sense of pride.
Oh, my God. my God.
And that lead-in music sort of will tell you what those of us who really know this person think about her.
But not to the extremes, of course, that the lyrics go to.
We're going to Talk about her book tonight, and by now you've probably guessed that our guest is Major Michelle Moore, the Commanding Officer of Four States for the Intelligence Service of the Second Continental Army of the Republic.
But first, and I know this is kind of a surprise, Michelle, I want to welcome you to the Hour of the Time.
Thank you.
I'm glad to be here.
Are you all right?
Oh, yeah, I'm having some finance problems, but we'll make it.
Okay.
I want to get this Bradley Glover thing out of the way.
Yeah, good idea.
As you know, we had some problems with it.
Bradley Glover was a member of the Intelligence Service, 2nd Continental Army of the Republic.
He was a sergeant, and he disobeyed orders.
Cut off all contact between himself and his commanding officer, which was Major Moore.
Why don't you tell us about that, Michelle?
Well, the first contact I had with him was last October, and that was when I was getting acquainted with the people on the field, and trying to find out what their capabilities were, how they were equipped in terms of information gathering, what their long crews were, and Basically to see how they could fill in and do everything that I could not and how well they were connected in their areas.
And Brad Glover was, from the beginning, quite arrogant and condescending.
And I didn't take this ill because I thought, well, I would much rather be working with somebody who has a whole lot of self-confidence than somebody who's constantly floundering in doubt.
But as it turns out, he never fulfilled any assignment that I gave him.
We never spoke again.
I would try to contact him.
He was not reachable.
And then he began using another intelligence service member, in a state other than his, to relay all of his messages to me.
And this became rather difficult.
I needed him to do some very crucial things for me in the state where he was settled, and he never did a deadly squat.
And this became rather frustrating and then we began getting some intelligence information about what he was doing where he was and it didn't look very good at all.
What were some of the things that he was engaging in?
Well, he was, he said the previous November he published a little ad in a small Kansas paper advertising that he was going to have a meeting to talk about formation of militias.
And so a bunch of folks, some of our people, went to investigate his little meeting.
And he had all the right kind of materials laid out, and he said all the right things, and he talked about the Constitution, and he talked about the law, and all of this.
It sounded really great.
And then some of our operatives had an opportunity, after the meeting, to speak with him privately, when he wasn't making a public address.
And he had mentioned that they were going to be a light mechanized unit and it would be necessary to liberate, read the word steal, vehicles from local National Guard armories and things like that.
And at that moment, flags of course went up, we're just going to do this.
And so that particular guy did not join his militia, but one of his best friends did.
And through this best friend, we were able to keep tabs on Glover and what he was doing and what he was planning, and none of it was very good.
And then that group began to get somewhat militant.
And before the Oklahoma City bombing, about a month before, that initial group of maybe a dozen guys or so disbanded completely, citing problems with the leadership.
Now, however you want to interpret that, I don't know.
But that's why the group disbanded.
And he immediately gathered up a new bunch of RAW recruits and gave them high-sounding offices and big responsibilities and began setting up things in other states and communications with other groups.
And there was this one particular fellow in Arkansas that most people will recognize by the name of Stuart Waterhouse.
Who was, uh, very closely aligned and a good friend of Brad Glover's.
And, of course, both Brad Glover and Stuart Waterhouse, when Ray Lampley was arrested and taken to the Muscogee County Jail, sent many threatening letters to the officials in Muscogee.
And all of them were signed by order of the militia, Stuart Waterhouse, and things like this.
Talking about how all the militias were authorized to go down there and rescue Lampley or to protect him from wrong treatment.
Now, he was being held as a prisoner of war and all of this baloney.
And then, of course, the next rattle out of the bag is Waterhouse gets arrested in the state of Hawaii for writing these letters.
And then there were a lot of different things that happened with Glover where he disappeared into the state of Arkansas and rumors were flying all over the place that he'd taken all these weapons with him and was honed up, hiding from the feds.
And the first person who set foot on the walkway heading toward where he was was going to be dead.
It was all this kind of junk.
And then we eventually found out that he was responsible for those rumors himself.
Yeah.
Well, we had about five different versions of what that was all about.
But the last one we heard was from Glover himself where he said that he thought he had a security leak in his group and he wanted to start a rumor and see where it went.
The interesting thing about where the rumor went was that two of the five stories that we eventually heard about that came out of the militia of Montana.
So it's just been kind of a mess.
But he keeps getting all this bad press.
I'm sure he thinks it's good press, but it's bad for the militia.
Because he's given himself a very grandiose Brigadier General type title.
And this is a sergeant.
Uh, I thought he was a First Lieutenant.
No, his actual name is Sergeant.
He's a non-commissioned officer.
Or he was, I should say.
That's right, yeah.
Well, uh, this past January, um, I had to discharge him.
And, of course, we talked about that in advance.
And through all the technicalities that you do to make sure that the person is duly notified and they have an opportunity to respond or answer any questions about their behavior.
And, of course, he didn't do anything for several months.
And finally I got a letter in the mail which said, well, you can't discharge me.
I'm in for life.
Well, we'll see.
But we haven't heard anything from him since.
He hasn't had any press coverage since his discharge that I'm aware of.
And I don't know what he's doing.
The tax machine has been disconnected.
What was the actual date of discharge?
Do you remember?
January 7th.
And you didn't take this upon yourself.
You just talked it over with me and I talked it over with higher authority.
And it was decided to discharge him and obtain his credentials and just release him.
Well, I couldn't have made that decision by myself anyway.
Right.
That's correct.
And we talked about it extensively for about two months prior to his discharge.
Because I feel like discharging somebody from service is a very serious matter and not to be taken upon lightly.
And you don't do it for things like personality conflicts.
There's got to be a real legitimate problem.
And with this guy, we're dealing with, you know, insubordination and all kinds of rumors about him being federally affiliated and things like that.
Which, by the way, I have not been able to confirm that that rumor has been out there.
And so after giving him every benefit of the doubt and every possible chance, there was no choice left.
I can't screw around with these guys at all.
There's no time for this.
I need people that are willing and able and capable and can take initiative and can work cooperatively with everybody in this organization.
And he wanted to do something else.
Yes.
And he was a part of the rank of sergeant.
He was given tasks and jobs to perform and research assignments, and he did never complete any of them, and appointed himself brigadier general and began to organize an unlawful militia based upon his telling people that he was a brigadier general with the Second Continent Army of the Republic, which was a blatant lie.
He was discharged Uh, and notified, uh, by mail, uh, registered mail, in fact, return receipt, uh, requested, was registered and certified.
And by regular mail, both.
Yeah, and by regular mail, both.
And, uh, refused to, uh, to answer, uh, for a long time until he sent that letter.
Uh, we've been acting upon that insubordination and his still carrying credentials of the 2nd Continental Army of the Republic.
We're in the process of changing all identification for all members of the Second Continental Army of the Republic.
It's costing us a lot of money, but it must be done in lieu of what this man has done, and that's how we're different from all of these other people.
And because of that, his insubordination and his actions were turned over to the Judge Advocate General of the Second Continental Army of the Republic.
He was notified that he was to be court-martialed.
And his notification was returned, marked refused.
He was then court-martialed in absentia.
He was, at that point, judged guilty and is now, his discharge has been changed to a dishonorable discharge under extreme prejudice.
And there is now a $100 reward offered by the Second Continental Army of the Republic for anyone who can confiscate and return the credentials that he is carrying.
So, that's it, folks.
Is there anything you'd like to add?
No, just good riddance, I guess.
He never ever filed any single report.
With everything going on with the investigation of the bombing, it was critical that I have people that I can work with in the state of Kansas, because so many things happened in the state of Kansas.
And had he been cooperative, his services would have been invaluable and honorable, and as it turned out, he was simply not cooperating and living in some strange fantasy land.
That's correct.
During our background check, it disclosed no No criminal history, no bad record of any kind, no deviant behavior, and apparently this whole thing, it's an ego thing with him, I believe, and we don't tolerate that whatsoever.
Well, let's get into your book, Michelle.
How did this whole thing start?
You pushed me to do it.
Well, how'd it start?
When did the idea come up and what was your reaction?
I was making the presentation at the last conference and you got up there in front of everybody and said, well I think she ought to write a book and I'll publish it.
What do you think?
And everybody thought it was a good idea and there we were.
That's how it came about.
You really didn't want to do this, did you?
No, not at all.
No, I really didn't.
In fact, I managed to stall.
For about 90 days after we got back from the conference, but come September it was better get on it.
Time to do it.
And when you decided to go ahead and undertake this task, what were your thoughts?
That I would never finish it.
And you're not just saying that, I mean you really... No, I was quite serious.
It is so overwhelming and there are so many players.
It's so convoluted.
The spiderweb is so twisted and knotted.
I was really not certain at all that I could untangle the pieces, keep track of all the pieces, and then there was the problem of, well, once you've untangled it, then you've got to write about it.
And that's a whole other problem of its own.
But, you know, you get started and things begin to happen.
You work until you burn out and then you stop writing for a few days and then you go back to it.
That is very, very difficult.
Now the writing is actually the culmination of a lot of other work.
Let's talk about that a little while.
Oh my God.
Well, compared to the work that went into it, the actual writing was a piece of cake.
Now you weren't just involved in this by yourself.
Oh no, not by any stretch of the imagination.
There's no way in the world that any of this could have been done without Dave, because he did just almost all of my leg work for me.
And people whose names I could mention that this couldn't have happened without them would be John, and Brett, and Danny, and Dave.
And then there are some people who would prefer I know that I not mention their names because of where they work or who they're affiliated with and things like that.
We have to protect our sources and our helpers.
Correct.
And we have to protect our members also.
Right.
Right.
But, yeah, the amount of research, well, I guess we probably have over 300 hours of videotape now.
Okay.
And every newspaper, magazine, publication, oddball thing off the wall since the day of the bombing, clear up through the present.
Every news broadcast?
Oh, yes.
Yes, every news broadcast on videotape, a lot of stuff on audio tape.
And then there was the matter of interviewing actual people, meeting them.
You know, sometimes they'd meet you in somebody's living room and you'd sit and talk to them.
Sometimes you'd spend days in restaurants doing nothing but drinking coffee and talking to these people and taking their statements.
Some people would only want to meet you in the dead of night in dark shadows.
You know, this kind of a deal.
But that was another part of the investigation was trying to track down Leaves and sources, and you'd get an anonymous back from somebody, and you'd have to track that down.
And sometimes the information would pan out.
Sometimes it was just pure fantasy, but you have to check everything.
This is quite time-consuming, very, very time-consuming, just to get to the place where there was something to write about.
It's great to have all these ideas about what happened on April the 19th, but if you can't document what you're talking about, and there's no reason to publish.
And we had a lot of conversations about that, too.
Yeah, yeah.
And there were times when you were up against the wall and you were getting flooded with disinformation and rumors and out now bullshit.
Oh yeah, like the whole month of November?
Yes.
Actually, some of that stuff was very helpful, but most of it was just a wild goose chase.
A lot of it was.
I just figured you know there are a hundred million ideas out there that different people are having about what this was all about and how it occurred and that's fine for them to think that and I don't have a problem with that but I wasn't going to write about something that I didn't I couldn't prove in some way and when I was looking through the book the other day when I finally got those discs out and stuff to deal with just
I guess the first volume of the book deals from the time of the bombing up until about midnight on the first day.
And to deal with just what happened on that day and related issues that came up as a result of things that happened that day took about, oh you know, about 250 pages, something like that.
But to document all of that is about another 425.
to recommend all of that is about another 425.
And one of the goals that I had when I started thinking about this is what I wanted was when all was said and done, I wanted anybody else on the planet who wanted to duplicate the research to be able to do so.
That's always been a hallmark of the intelligence service and the way we operate, is that whatever information that we put out, that anyone who gets that information is able to document it on their own, should they have the desire and the ambition to do so.
There will be some things, I'm sure, that people will find quite controversial in this, and they can argue with me all they want to, but if they'll go into the reference sections, all of the research will be there, and then if they want to go and look up the documentation, they certainly can.
And, of course, all of these materials, and all of the taped interviews that we did, and all the video tapes and everything else, belong to the research library there.
If they want to go to the research library and duplicate the research, they can.
That's correct.
And that's how it ought to be.
In the beginning, I can remember when you had finally accepted the fact that you were going to write the book, you asked me how you were going to put all this stuff together.
The only piece of advice I ever gave you was to make sure that everything can be documented Everything is sourced, and that there is no rumor, no supposition, no, um, no, um, oh, what's the word I'm looking for?
No, um, um, predictions or anything like that, unless, uh, you've firmly stated that, oh, I'm looking for the word opinion is what I'm looking for.
Only in the epilogue.
Yes.
And that's clearly my opinion.
unless you specifically stated in the book that, hey, this is my opinion, this is not fact.
And I've read every page of your book, and there's nowhere in there at all where you even talk about anything being your opinion unless I miss something.
Is that correct?
Only in the epilogue.
Yes.
And that's clearly my opinion.
I mean, it couldn't be taken as anything else.
Uh-huh.
But we do know that that's where it's going.
Yes, we do.
And we have the proof to back up those assertions, although no one will see that proof until the subsequent volumes are published.
Correct.
Well, you can't overburden people.
There's enough stuff to deal with in just this one volume alone.
Just dealing with the stuff on this one day without projecting months into the future Well, it would just get overwhelming.
You couldn't lift the book.
You'd need a small truck to carry it around.
So there's just an awful lot of research material and stuff that went into this.
And it changes your life when you're doing a research project.
This magnitude really does.
Well, you know, I'm glad you brought that up because I want to talk about that.
I know that in the first initial stages of the investigation, your husband Dave was invaluable.
In fact, without him, we would not have obtained any of the seismograph information.
And we were the only ones who obtained it from both sources initially and made that documentation known to the world and then published it, of course, in Veritas.
There's a lot of things we've never published and never talked about because it would have probably hampered your ability to search out and uncover other information had they known that we were in possession of some facts and some devastating information.
Oh, well, we saw this kind of thing happen frequently.
Whenever word got out that certain things were being looked into.
Damage control people began appearing on the scene.
And all of a sudden, doors of information would be shut.
People wouldn't tell their stories anymore.
Folks got threatened.
It's just been wild.
All kinds of things have happened.
But what you were saying about Dave is absolutely true.
There's no way in the world this could have been done without him, any of it.
And he's been a great source of support and strength for you during all of this.
Yes, and he can fix anything.
I guess we've had two or maybe three major computer crashes or major computer problems since this thing started and he was always able to fix it.
And then there's just little domestic things.
You know, when I would get deeply involved in something, you can't just stop when you're searching for something and go get somebody else for three or four hours, you know.
And I'd get behind on the laundry.
Or somebody else is going to have to cook dinner that night.
And Dave just handles all these things so graciously and lovingly and keeps the family together when I'm in a seat.
So it works out real well.
Works out very very well.
And there were some times when this just became overbearing.
Oh absolutely.
Absolutely.
I can remember at least two phone calls of tears, and I don't know if I can go on, and I need some kind of, I need some strength, you know, and I don't know how much help I was.
I tried to be help, but I think that Dave was the main source of your of your strength and what gave you the ability to continue.
People who are listening to this have no idea the amount of work and the total involvement that is required of many of our people, not just you, but many other people whose names are never known.
If it hadn't been for the tremendous loss of life and the fact that people needed to know that we had someone on the scene, you would never have been Disclosed to the public and we thought long and hard before we did that.
Yeah.
But they have no conception because you had to literally relive the death and destruction in that day over and over and over again.
Well it's still happening.
Yes.
Especially as we go into the first anniversary ceremonies and memorials that are coming up.
We have just been inundated with all kinds of unbelievable Let's review everything.
Let's remove everything on the TV.
How's everybody doing?
Let's check up on all the victims.
It makes you sick after a while.
There were days when I just couldn't handle television at all.
Just totally burned out.
Dave would come in and do the taping for me.
There would be weeks at a time when I couldn't even face the newspaper.
I'd have to get caught up.
It wears on you and I don't know how people, I've never done this before, so I don't know how people cope with this as a lifestyle.
I really don't.
It wears you down when you get involved in something and suddenly you realize that you've done two or three nights in a row of two or three hours of sleep and you're still pushing.
And then you get a cold and then you start feeling bad.
And then you've still got to keep working, and it's just, you reach a pressure point, and you've got to push through it, and you reach a pressure point, and you've got to push through it, and you do increase your capacity to endure.
But there's really no getting over the bombing.
I don't think people are ever really going to get over the bombing.
It will fade from memory as people age, and I'm thinking, you know, ahead many years into the future.
Those of us who were alive at the time, this would be like the Kennedy assassination.
We all remember where we were and what we were doing at the time.
Yes.
And it will be that same kind of a thing.
But as our age group ages on, new people who were just kids then won't really have any active memory of it, and it will all just become one of those things they talk about and say, well, you know, there were a lot of theories that the government might have done it, or the Middle East might have done there were a lot of theories that the government might have done it, or the Middle East might have done it, or And that was another reason for doing the book.
Yeah, and it may even be worse, and I'll talk about that in just a minute.
Don't go away, folks.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
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I was going to bring up something, some comment on what Michelle had said, but I'm not going to do that.
I want to continue on with this.
You know there's somebody else in your family who's been a great help and that's Anna.
Little Anna could have been a terrific, terrible burden because she's a child.
But she's helped out quite a bit, hasn't she?
Oh, she's a remarkable child.
Yes, she's been a tremendous help.
And she's homeschooled, huh?
Oh, yes.
Yeah, that in addition to all else.
I have a big suspicion that if she had not been homeschooled, she wouldn't have been such a help.
She probably would have been that terrible burden that we were talking about.
Well, I would have to agree.
Knowing her emotional makeup, she would have been a victim of the public school system and it would have been very, very difficult to help her remain balanced and focused through all of this.
And also, homeschooling provides great flexibility of scheduling.
And she went with me almost everywhere I had to go.
Of course, there were some meetings that it would not have been.
A blessing for her to be there.
And then again, Dave steps in and just handles things very beautifully for me in those situations.
But Anna hasn't been freaked out or upset.
And when she knows that I'm going to be doing an interview, she just takes it in stride.
That's just how life is for a while.
It's not always going to be this way.
And I think she's handled it amazingly maturely for a little kid.
And uh, oh boy.
Good thing Pooh's not monitoring this broadcast.
Good thing she's not the host.
She would nail you to the wall on that kid.
Hey Pooh, are you listening?
Pooh?
Where's Pooh, honey?
Oh, she's asleep?
Okay, I'm sorry.
I was going to have her come and talk about that, but anyway.
Well, Ann has received quite a tremendous education during all of this also.
She's been a part of something that most children never get to be a part of.
Yeah, we've had to talk about a lot of things.
Uh, think the way we think, and why we don't agree with certain statements that you hear on television, and, uh, why we don't live our lives in accordance with other people's rules and regs, and, and, uh, you just sort of explain and teach as you go, and so she has an understanding of this.
It's not just Mom and Dad saying, well, it's this way because I say so.
There are those moments, you know, but, uh, for the most part, dealing with this bombing and the book writing and the interviewing and the constant phone calls and everything else, When she understands what we're doing and why we're doing it, then she's much more helpful and looks for ways to help.
And some of this has been a little bit upsetting and eye-opening in the manner that strange people show up and strange people call and their intent is not always good.
Yeah, this is true.
Too many creepy people have my phone number.
Yeah, and it's not always your fault, nor do they always get it through proper means.
And you've also been the target of some intentional attempts to feed you disinformation and to deviate you from the true path.
You want to talk a little bit about some of that?
Oh, not really.
Oh, God.
You don't have to name names or anything that you feel might be inappropriate or endanger what you still have to do, but I think it's important that people understand some of the real dangers and problems that we all face when we do this kind of work.
Well, maybe I can speak about it more generally.
Um, when you... I don't think that there's going to be one moment in this investigation where it's like suddenly you've worked your way through the maze and there's this big door at the end and you open it up and you go, aha, there's the answer.
Seldom ever happens that way.
Right, it's not going to be that way.
So they're all along this path, there's oodles and gobs of little doors.
And you have to check in each one of them and some of them are empty closets and some of them are full of junk and some of them have a little treasure in there.
And it seems like when you're opening little treasures of information that are going to lead somewhere else, just about that time, everything is going to, everybody else is going to come out of the woodwork with information that contradicts what you're discovering and they just know that you're crazy.
I can't tell you how many times I've been laughed off the face of the earth.
Yeah, or link it to something that has no basis in fact.
Right, right.
all this sort of thing, and then a few months down the line, these same individuals go, oh, man, you were right.
Now we've got the witnesses.
Now we've got the information.
And they go very public with all this stuff, and we just keep very quiet and put all the little pieces together.
Because sometimes they'll get that information but jump to a conclusion.
They'll make a speculative leap.
Yeah, or leak it to something that has no basis in fact.
Right, right.
And this has happened innumerable times where they'll try to discredit your information before you can even do anything with it, trying to head you off at the pass.
But they don't know where we're going with the information that we have.
So that's not going to work.
And then there's the matter of you're really focused in on something that's leading somewhere and it's right, and everything's beginning to fall into place in that one little area of research.
And all of a sudden you'll have 10 million phone calls with a whole bunch of new information and new players and new takes on the event and new witnesses and it's overwhelming.
And you have to sit there and sort through all those little pieces and say, well, alright, is this one?
Who do I have time for?
How do I prioritize these?
Are any of these worth anything at all?
It becomes very, very difficult.
And what's our policy for deciding which direction we're going to go and what we're going to determine is the right path?
Well, it has to be documentable.
I mean, policy?
Gee, Bill, you put me on the spot.
Well, you just said it.
It has to be... It has to be able to document.
It has to be documentable.
It has to be fact.
We have to be able to prove it.
If we can't prove it, then we know that either it may crop up with some proof later, or it doesn't have any proof, and we've got to go in the direction where the facts, the proof, the documentation is leading us, because that's where the real truth lies.
That's where these other people fall down on the job.
They go with any little rumor and any little bit and any little published thing or anything that comes along without having that standard, that policy, that requirement in front of them and so very often they go off on these wild goose chases and they're touting stories and following investigation leads that go nowhere.
Or listen to news blurbs from these individuals.
They've always talked to somebody whose name they can't reveal.
Or they've employed methods that they cannot disclose.
Or they've got all this stuff piled together and there's going to be a big surprise for us if we just keep our shirt on another week or so.
It's all going to come to light and we'll understand it all by and by.
It's such baloney.
Yeah.
And they've got a good story, then we ought to be able to deal with those very same witnesses and duplicate the research.
But they're not willing for that to be done.
And if they're not willing for that to be done, I just have to say, well, why not?
Well, normally, why not is that there's some other agenda that they're... Well, there's either some other agenda or they're just lying from the beginning.
Yeah.
And there's no reason for someone who's trying to be honest and really pursue the truth to lie unless there is another Egyptian, or unless there's something basically wrong with their particular psychological makeup, which in some cases there are.
Now, we very early on identified the fact that Gary Hunt was present that morning.
Right.
And we identified him in a videotape and we did the research here with body measurement proportion comparison analysis against known photographs of Gary Hunt.
We identified him as being a known informant and operative of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
And we were immediately attacked for that identification.
And some of the disinformation sources even tried to tell the world that it was a custodian who worked in one of the buildings there.
And that turned out not to be true.
And we pursued the information until we had absolute documentation that Gary Hunt was in Oklahoma City that day.
We had motel records, we had all kinds of things, and there is no doubt, and eventually some of the other investigators came around and substantiated that what we had discovered was absolutely true.
Well, the interesting thing about that, though, is some of the other independent investigators in this area who just don't believe the Gary Hunt story also refuse to ever interview their alleged maintenance man. is some of the other independent investigators in this area They won't release photographs of him.
They won't do any interviews on camera with him.
And, you know, I can't work with that.
No.
And the reason they won't is because it doesn't exist.
It just isn't true.
Well, there are so many guys out there with big beards, okay?
All right.
A big beard does not make you Gary Hunt.
That's correct.
But that's been a major point of contention between me and several of the people in this town for a long time.
And they'll talk to me and share information with me up to a point, and then they disagree with me on something, and they'll just not talk to me for months.
But a couple of them have now substantiated that that information is true.
Oh, yeah.
Well, as soon as they work it out for themselves and they find out that they're right, oh, then they're calling me again.
I tell you, you take so much abuse.
It's just unbelievable to me the kind of abuse that I've taken from fine, upstanding citizens who really think they're doing the right thing.
But they get off on these wild goose chases, and they'll believe something that somebody told them, and they won't ever check it out for themselves.
And that's why this happens.
They're coming from an emotional standpoint.
Very much so.
And they want it to be true for some reason, which I haven't discovered yet.
But they do, and you'll find witnesses in many, and participants, or victims, relatives, in many different instances, not just the Oklahoma City bombing, who do that, because they have no background in research or investigative work, and they don't understand how these things have to be handled in order to arrive at the truth of the matter.
And so they get caught up in all of these cul-de-sacs and little eddies at the side of the river and following these wild goose chases and things.
And part of that is intentional.
It's directed to them by provocateurs in order to sabotage legitimate investigations.
And since these people are so hounded by the press, whatever they do or say eventually makes its way onto the pages of some newspaper and tends to discredit the legitimate investigation of people who are trying to seriously uncover the facts of the matter.
Well, that was another reason for including such comprehensive reference section in this book, because I know the other opinions that are out there, and I know the other books that have been written.
I've probably seen all of them that I know about except for two that I haven't been able to do it yet.
Thanks.
I just didn't want it to eventually break down to a "well he said, she said" type of thing.
And if somebody wants to do the research, they can do the research.
The information is all here pertaining to these matters in the first volume.
And then we'll write the second and the third.
Well, it's an incredible piece of documentation, I have to say that.
Thanks.
And there's, what, 15 chapters?
Yeah, 15 chapters.
How many pages?
All together, including the references, 675.
And how many of those pages are references and notes?
425 pages of references and documentation and about 250 pages of text.
Isn't that incredible?
Well, I wouldn't have thought it because when I was writing the book I was just thinking well I'm going to write until I get done and then I'll stop and however long it is is however long it is.
I thought I had about maybe 50 pages of references and things like that and I thought well now wait a minute.
I don't really expect all these people to go and look all this stuff up.
Some of the things I have here they may never even be able to find so let's just put them in the book.
And that's when we started really putting in all of the information and all the documentation and the transcripts of interviews and things like that.
It got longer and longer and longer.
But I think that anybody that's had any strange questions at all about the stuff we've talked about on your show with regard to the bombing, will be able to see exactly where we're coming from and why we think what we think, and they'll see that the documentation is there for it.
It's true.
So I can't argue with that.
No.
And, you know, I'm really looking forward to the final publication of the book.
I'm looking forward to getting it into the hands of the people.
In a way, I'm kind of dreading what the reaction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Yeah, me too.
People are, is going to be, because it's literally going to destroy them.
It's going to destroy their whole public propaganda campaign.
It's going to be the final and complete discreditation of the establishment communist news networks and communist print media in this country.
Because it's going to show that what they've been telling the public It's not based upon any fact, but it is, in fact, a bare-faced lie.
And that, I think, is going to really make an impact upon this battle that we're raging in this country over whether we're going to walk into a new type of slavery backwards in our evolution or whether we're going to go into the future as free, responsible people.
Well, I look at that whole situation like this.
They brought it on themselves.
Boy, they certainly did that, didn't they?
They had every opportunity all along, and everybody has the opportunity every day to tell the truth.
And for whatever reason they chose not to, they chose not to.
Unfortunately for them, that was discovered, and it can be documented.
And we documented it, and I'm sorry if they don't like it, but that's how it is.
They had an opportunity to be up to it with everybody from the get-go, and they did not.
One of the most devastating things about the book is the fact that while the truth was being broadcast by the local media in Oklahoma City, at least during the initial stages of the disaster,
the national news media was completely changing it to fit another agenda and were blatantly and consciously, with full knowledge, telling the American public complete lies.
And the federal people, when they gave their press conferences, specifically the BATF, the Secret Service, the FBI, almost everybody who spoke for the government at any press conference whatsoever took the truth almost everybody who spoke for the government at any press conference whatsoever took the truth and twisted it around and ignored it and in later stages, later hours of
Right.
Right.
And in that one section where we deal with the comments from the 5 o'clock press conference where you had the local players and the feds at the same press conference, I tried to demonstrate that as clearly as possible because we've had this whole buildup during the day of witness statements and observations by people on the scene and police officers and firefighters, everybody who's there actually doing the work telling their tale.
Then you get into that press conference and the locals tell about the same thing What's going on?
They're just doing their job.
And the staffs get up there and it's like, well, are they in this same continent with me?
Or where are they?
And so we took the different statements that they made and planted them verbatim and then contradicted them with everything else that had already gone before that we already documented and stacked.
Oh, it's devastating.
It's absolutely devastating.
I don't have any idea how some of these organizations are going to survive this book.
We've just about run out of time.
Why don't you just put into your own words what you'd like to say about this book and about the experience that you've gone through.
And it's by no way finished.
I mean, this volume is finished, but this is going to be a several volume set of books.
Well, it would have to be.
It would have to be.
There's so much information, it's just unbelievable.
And you can't just deal with what you know and document as truth.
You also have to go in there and disprove the rumors, the speculations, and the hypotheses that are getting all the publicity.
Right.
So that it doesn't... Well, the news people said this, and she said that.
Well, I believe the news.
And you've got to prove everything, not just your own side of it, but you have to disprove theirs.
It's quite a task, and I need a bigger living room for the documents.
Oh, there's one other thing.
Larry Myers reported in Media Bypass, this is his story, and Glenn Hauser on World of Radio has reported that Timothy McVeigh's favorite radio program was The Hour of the Time.
They reported that this came directly from Terry Nichols' brother, James.
God, weeks with James Nichols since last December.
Because they'd come to town for investigations, they'd come to town for trials, we'd always get together and spend days together.
And I asked him about that, and for a time, both Nichols and McVeigh were living with James up in his farm in Decker, and McVeigh had heard The Hour of the Time maybe two or three times, and then James bought some tapes that you did when you were doing the IRS.
Uh huh.
And enjoyed those a lot and got a lot of benefit out of them.
But as far as McVeigh being a regular listener and hanging on every word on Patriot Shortwave, that's a bunch of baloney.
And James Nickel did not tell that to... No, no, he didn't.
To Larry Myers.
No, of course not.
Larry Myers made that up.
Larry Myers made that up because the Hour of the Time exposed Larry Myers and he's trying in some way to associate this broadcast With the bombing and it's not going to work.
It'll never happen.
Okay, thank you, Michelle, for being our guest tonight.
I think you've done an incredible job.
The people out there listening are probably enjoying this broadcast, but I can tell you right now they have no concept of what they owe you and the other people involved in this investigation.
When they read the book, they might begin to get some idea, but I don't think your contribution is going to be totally understood for several years, but when it is, I can guarantee you that that this whole nation is going to owe you a debt of gratitude.
I would just hope that when they read it, they'll understand how to do these things so that they can do the same kind of research in their own areas.
Absolutely.
And that would be the best.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Good night, Michelle.
Good night, folks.
And God bless each and every single one of you.
Good night.
So, so, so, everybody out.
The door is open.
So, so, so, everybody knows.
You could get lost.
So, so, so, everybody out.
Let's go play.
What a vicious world.
But a good guy lost.
Everybody knows that the way it would be.
So just the poor single.
And the risk of return.
That's how it goes.
Everybody knows.
Everybody knows that the poor.
We should have a flood.
I know you said you'd have to remember.
I know you said you'd have to remember.
Everybody's got this broken glass in their hands, and I can't find a way to fix it.
Yeah, I thought I'd like to do that.
I could check that but I want to find.
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