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Feb. 20, 1996 - Bill Cooper
58:57
John – Optimum Weapons
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Time Text
Oh It is the hour of the time.
Lights out of the purple moon.
To be continued...
And I'm William Cooper.
You're listening to the Hour of the Time, and I'm Poop.
And I'm William Cooper.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, intervisible with liberty and justice for all.
The Hour of the Time
The Hour of the
Time continuation of the broadcast that we did on the long-range rifle on the 15th.
John Thayer is back in the studio with me now.
Welcome, John.
Good evening, Bill.
Thanks for having me back.
Well, you're certainly welcome.
Everybody certainly enjoyed your broadcast last week, and I'm certain that they're going to enjoy it tonight also.
What we're going to do tonight, folks, is talk about For those of you who either don't want to go to the trouble to make the rifle that we discussed last Thursday night, or if you just don't have the funds to do it, or you don't know a gunsmith that you would trust to be able to handle and put together an assembly that you've got that much invested in, we're going to talk about what you can get off the shelf.
I mean, just right off the shelf that might work for you are about the rifles that you may already have in your possession, and some of the normal and, well, what would you call it?
The things that you would do to improve those without, you know, going to extreme measures or spending a fortune.
Well, right, Bill.
There are various modifications, many of which are relatively minor, tuning procedures, etc., that will derive the maximum performance out of a more or less otherwise conventional sporting arm.
And what are we talking about when we're talking about a sporting arm?
Well, first, what price range are we talking about, and then what calibers and And what kind of configuration should somebody be looking for, for an accurate weapon for at least 500 yards, let's say?
Well, the 500 yard criteria, range-wise, immediately would place you in the .30 caliber bracket, as far as bore diameter.
Cartridge-wise, or chambering-wise, You're essentially going to be talking about minimum standard .308 or 7.62 NATO caliber chamber.
Very typically .30-06 and most of the common belted mags in .30 caliber as in .300 Winchester mag and so forth.
What kind of configuration are we looking at?
Are we talking about a bolt action rifle?
Can they use a semi-automatic?
I would eliminate up front, for this particular selection, your sporting or commercial semi-autos, as well as pumps and lever actions, I would include, with actually one exception.
And for those, and I'm sure that there's still a lot of these old rifles in folks' racks and in the listeners' closets across the country, If they want to take note of it, for those that happen to have one, the old Winchester Model 88 specifically.
Now there happens to be a lever action that potentially will shoot with virtually any turn bolt action rifle ever made.
You mean range for range and accuracy for accuracy?
That's correct.
Now the limitation being is the 88 being a box fed You know, magazine-fed lever action.
Maximum chambering on it was .308.
And so therefore, and more typically, I think there was probably as many if not more of those rifles chambered for .243 Winchester as there was .308 Winchester in the commercial designation.
But that notwithstanding, the strength and precision of the action itself, what you literally had in that old design Was very unique from the standpoint that it was a turn bolt locking lever action.
So therefore you had some cyclical repeatable speed, could maintain something of a rate of fire with it, but yet with all the accuracy potential of the model 70 Winchester bolt action or 700 Remington or what have you.
Okay, we're really talking about, as we discussed before the broadcast, we're talking about medium-priced weapons.
We're not talking about anything high-priced, and we all have an innate suspicion of anything that's considered to be cheap.
Well, that's right, Bill.
Actually, Bill, you get what you pay for, is what I'm trying to say, I guess.
Yes, that's true, to a point of no return, which I would have to, for example, put Weatherby products in the point of, or beyond the point of no return.
Now, in their case, and rifles of that ilk, you know, that category, very pretty, decorative, that sort of thing, decorative, you know what I mean?
Ornate and aesthetically pleasing.
You're dealing with rifles that are overpriced versus performance.
In other words, you're not getting your bang for your buck, you're paying more bucks for a bang you could have got for a lot less.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Typically, just to name off and list a few of the preferred, what I call project rifles this evening, And again, in standard, commonly available, practically available, in other words, chamberings, ammunition and supply wise, I'll list a few for you.
Okay.
They'll range everywhere from the currently produced Savage Model 110 in all of its variations.
You know, you have the 110As, practically through Zs, you know, in the Alpha designations for them.
But they're all essentially the same barreled action.
To the Remington, as mentioned earlier, Remington 700 models in their variations, you know, grade by grade variations, you have the Winchester bolt actions typically represented by all the variations of the Model 70 with the preference obviously being the The old-style Model 70 pre-1964.
But those have fallen into, today, what is known as a collector category.
So, cost-wise, you can be spending some money to obtain an old, used, in fine condition, pre-1964 Model 70, but it's well worth it.
It'll range from that on into your current production Ruger Model 77.
The whole series of early 1980s Smith & Wesson Model 1500s.
Very fine turn bolt action rifle from the early 80s.
So that's to name a few of the very, what you would have to call medium or competitively priced range centerfire bolt action rifles of typical commonly available chain rings.
Now, my own tendency in the .30 calibers is to still lean toward the militarily interchangeable rounds, such as .308 or .30-06, simply for commonality such as .308 or .30-06, simply for commonality and mass availability of loaded ammunition for them and also components for the hand loader for them.
Now, occasionally I've even seen some of the inner arms that are not being imported anymore for sale.
And new, excellent, and in very good condition in some of the things like shotgun news and what's that other one that we get here?
The gun list.
The gun list, yeah.
And those are also very good for this kind of project.
Oh, excellent.
In fact, they would be placed right at the top of the list.
And strangely enough, in the medium price range, they're toward the bottom.
They're very commonly on the used market encountered at $100 or so less than what you'll pay for a used Model 700 Remington, for example.
So that would be a very, very widely accepted list of quality, serviceable, from my point of view or from the gunsmith's point from my point of view or from the gunsmith's point of view, workable or redesignable rifles that, again, lend themselves totally to practicality, you see.
Sure.
For the intermediate, long-range application.
Now, I know that somebody's going to ask this question, so I'm going to ask it right off the bat so we don't have to waste time with it when we get to the phones, which isn't going to be for a while.
So don't bother calling right now, folks.
Somebody's going to call in, unless we answer this right now and get it out of the way.
And say, well, what about my M15, or excuse me, AR-15, or what about a semi-automatic 308, or an M14, or these common types of rifles that an awful lot of people possess?
Well, right.
And we might as well throw in the M1, or the M1A.
The M1A, of course, is the civilian version of the M14.
And then, of course, you have the Ruger Mini-14.
And that whole series are what I refer to as standard-issue shoulder arms, you know, from a military standpoint.
Not to be confused with Relatively high precision intermediate to longer range capability rifles.
Now, that's not to say that there aren't a lot of M1As and M14s appearing at Camp Perry each year.
You know, it's a thousand yard competition and whatnot.
There are.
Sure.
And M1 Garands.
But these are special rifles.
That's right.
When somebody wins a competition at a thousand yards with an M1 Garand, That's a special rifle that somebody's put a lot of work and money into.
That's not the common M1 gram that somebody has purchased and owns for hunting.
Exactly.
Nowhere near it.
And, of course, their competition is categorized in their own class, too.
Then again, you have, you know, the center fire bolt action class or big bore class, you know, that fires, of course, against its own category.
So what we're dealing with tonight, folks, and we're trying to key in on for your benefit are pointers with regard to tuning the family's very common deer rifle, you know, essentially is exactly what we're after.
Your paramilitary type shoulder arms, those are in a class by themselves and they have an entirely different tactical application than what we're dealing with this evening.
What we're talking about is something that will not reach out as far as the long-range rifle, will not be quite as accurate at those long ranges, but will substitute if somebody doesn't want to go to the trouble or spend the money for that kind of a weapon.
So, and you've covered just about the whole gamut of what they can use.
Now, what are some of the common things that they can do to improve the performance of those weapons?
Well, at the top of the list of priority operations, modifications to be done, I would have to place what is known as accuracy stocking, or more commonly referred to as micro bedding and barrel or more commonly referred to as micro bedding and barrel floating.
Now what that refers to specifically in my case, in my own methods that are applied is that I will micro-bed through use of an Acroglass resin material the action or receiver itself.
The entire receiver channel is micro bedded, or in other words, fiberglassed in, and a literal casting of that action is taken in glass from the tip at the rear or the aft end of the receiver, the tip of the tang, clear forward to mid chamber, which is where I end the micro support or micro glass.
And from that point forward, throughout the 4N barrel channel, the barrel is free-floated.
In other words, that means it's not touching the stock at any point.
That's correct.
And in fact, even if the barrel heats up, it should not touch the stock at any point.
That's right.
Even through distortion from heat accumulation and buildup, there will be no pre-stress that could cause The barrel to contact.
Therefore, you're actually dealing with a suspended barrel, so to speak, from mid-chamber forward.
And therefore, any bipods or support apparatuses or mechanisms that are attached to that stock will in no way, and certainly should not in any way, contact or bear against the barrel.
Or bear any of the weight of the rifle on the barrel.
I see a lot of people who buy bipods and special attachments and things that fit directly onto the barrel.
And that, in this case, when we're looking for range and accuracy, is an absolute no-no.
It's self-defeating.
Yes.
So, the best approach, and I will say this, is a rule of thumb if done properly.
Uh, the, the operation of bedding and floating, uh, barreled action in a, in a stock, whether it's to be a replacement, uh, uh, selection amongst the widely available, uh, synthetic Kevlar stocks today.
And incidentally, folks, I would recommend always sticking with a, uh, a glass resin or Kevlar type stock, as opposed to the, uh, polymer injection molded plastic stocks.
For the simple reason that all of those accuracy operations known as bedding and floating, the materials used in that operation are only compatible with fiberglass stocks.
They are not specifically compatible with, and will not bond to, polymer plastics.
So that's a very important consideration.
Yes it is.
But anyhow, the act of properly stocking can be done either with a replacement synthetic type stock of the types that I just recommended, or the original wood stock that probably did come on the rifle.
And there's nothing wrong with sticking with that wood stock.
Not at all.
In fact, With the various strengthening engineering that has been done in recent years in an effort to beef up synthetic stocks, you're dealing with an average net savings weight-wise by switching to the typical synthetic of only about a half a pound for the average rifle.
So there's no particular weight advantage, or no significant weight advantage to be had by making that switch.
There are, however, many other benefits of a synthetic stock.
They are far more durable than the typical walnut or hardwood, birch, what have you, stock commonly encountered today on the commercial market.
Much less susceptible to warpage and distortion and shrinkage and expansion and so forth from changes in humidity and atmosphere, you see.
So, I wouldn't in any way, shape or form discount the concept of moving to a synthetic.
But I'd like to point out at this time that the typical results, direct results, attributable to a properly done bedding and floating job for accuracy, is rule of thumb in my shop is a 50% reduction in the typical is rule of thumb in my shop is a 50% reduction in the typical group utilizing the same lot of ammunition in a
But what I'm saying there is that if you started out with a 5-inch group and you get a proper bedding and floating job, you end up with a 2-1��2-inch group.
Essentially, that's it.
Although, let's hope that there's not even any commercial rifles out there that are doing as poorly as five inches.
Of course, that would be a hundred yards.
We don't want to embarrass anybody.
Right.
But, no, more typically, someone will bring me an M77 Ruger, let's say.
Not known for the ultimate intrinsic potential for accuracy, but, you know, a very typically encountered hunting rifle today.
They'll bring that rifle in with a test target of their own, indicating typically, let's say, an inch and three quarters.
Well, that's 1.75 minute of angle is what that equates to in technical terms.
And very typically, just the one operation of bedding and floating will reduce the group potential of that rifle immediately to around 3 quarters of an inch, or in other words, below sub-minute of angle.
So the last time we talked, I believe it was last Thursday, I made a statement that my weapon, when it was firing correctly and everything had been done to it, I had taken it down to a six-inch group at a thousand yards.
And I got some calls from people who said, Wow, that's really great.
But it's not really that great, because I've put as much into my weapon as I possibly can.
I can't perfect it anymore except in my own ability to shoot better.
There is a gun club in Pennsylvania where just recently a man fired at 1,200 yards, five-shot group, within an inch and a half.
Wow, at 1,200 yards.
So, I just want everybody to know out there, six inches at 1,000 yards isn't great.
But you know, Bill, when fired in all various parts of the country under many varying conditions and so forth, with all the variables considered, Actually, in my opinion, from my own observations over a lot of years of all types of competition and so forth, anywhere 10 inches or below done consistently at 1,000 yards is astounding.
And so an inch and a half is amazing.
Can you tell me offhand?
I'll show you after the broadcast.
I have the article here.
Great.
Absolutely incredible.
Yeah, I'd be highly interested.
Absolutely incredible.
But now we've vetted and we've floated the stock, what's the next step?
The next step, and the order of priority is determined by, in my opinion, by the percentage of return, that is positive return in terms of improvement in the rifle's performance, accuracy-wise.
So the next step would be a re-crown job on the existing barrel.
Now, when you say re-crown, what are you talking about?
I'm referring to the muzzle specifically and what is known as the crown, which the crown is simply a style of facing or facing cut that was originally done at the factory.
Now, then several things can be contributing factors to lack of precision or lack of precision performance with regard to the crown.
First off, most factory operations entail reuse of what is known as a piloted cutter.
Rather than turning the barrel between centers, Or running in with a dial indicator, that sort of thing, off bore axis for precision.
Piloted cutter simply means that that's a jig-type operation that picks up the bore's center with a pilot and cuts a pre-styled, usually round-type crown, you know, at the muzzle.
So the operation itself lacks precision to begin with.
There's all sorts of room for error, and then it The style that is commonly encountered, being the old radius or round-type crown, offers very little protection to the actual chamfer, which is a highly critical point at the muzzle, in the future, during field use.
In other words, the potential for damage to that chamfer is very great.
And generally, unbeknownst to the owner and shooter, damage does occur, is sustained.
You see, just in normal daily use.
And folks often wonder why their favorite .30-06 went from typical inch-and-a-half groups and 100 yards to all of a sudden now it will barely hold paper the next time they go out to re-zero for the next deer season.
And that's really bad.
Yeah, and very often, through very simple troubleshooting, that radical change in the rifle's performance is easily traceable right back to damage that's occurred to the muzzle end of the rifle right around the chamfer, in other words, inside the crown. that radical change in the rifle's performance is easily traceable And that could be caused by something just as simple and as common as bumping the end of the barrel against the car door when you're taking it in and out of a vehicle.
Precisely.
Now, you do two things that not only improves the accuracy of the weapon through work on the crown, but protects the crown also.
Yes.
Now, if we're only dealing with a re-crown job as specified by the customer, when he approaches, when an individual approaches me with that request, then my standard procedure is to apply what is known as then my standard procedure is to apply what is known as a target recess-type crown. -
It would appear to be all 90 degree facing surfaces that are literally turned or cut in the lathe and again indicated in between centers.
For maximum precision as it relates to picking up bore center, you understand, in the operation.
Firstly, and secondly, I'll recess the actual chamfer, or exit point, in other words, of the projectile, a full 40 thousandths of an inch.
In so doing, we have just protected, again, that highly fragile, critical chamfer area.
Uh, from any likely damage, even to include jamming the rifle muzzle first into a big rock, you know what I'm saying?
It'd be very, or dropping it directly in the rocks on the muzzle.
Very unusual that you'd ever sustain any accuracy-sacrificing type damage.
So, and of course, quite often, even if the previous crown job was not damaged, I'm going to have to estimate and again, take a rule of thumb, normally a 20% gain in precision performance is realized or enjoyed from just that one operation.
So again, in the order of priorities, we start off with a restocking, bedding and floating job.
Next step is a re-crown job.
Does a compensator improve the performance of a rifle in any other way than keeping the barrel from bucking on firing and protecting the crown?
Well, it does.
From a tactical standpoint, a certain amount of flash suppression is enjoyed or realized from a compensator.
Even though that's not the primary design purpose, it's definitely a side benefit.
But I'd have to say, Bill, overall, compensators are primarily a shooter performance improvement rather than an intrinsic rifle performance improvement.
Now, when you chronograph your original prototype for the long-range rifle, isn't it true that after you added the compensator, there was about a 50 feet per second improvement in velocity?
Yes, Bill, it is, and that phenomenon is even carried over to pistols.
I'm known for doing quite a bit of competition, 45 auto or 1911 type work, and I do build so-called cop guns on those frames.
And interestingly enough, an average of between 40 and 50 feet per second improvement in velocity or increase in velocity is realized from a common...
And we can't find any reason for that, can we?
Well, it defies physics, you know, really that there would be an increase simply because you run out of bearing surface and gas seal surface as the projectile's base exits the the chamfer of the actual barrel, you see, or bore.
So therefore, logically speaking, there shouldn't be any further impetus to the bullet's acceleration as it exits the crown.
But the chronograph says that there is.
That's right.
We're speaking in terms of actual, literal results in the test gear, isn't he?
Or as indicated by the test gear.
So apparently, obviously, there is some increase there.
There's some improvement in velocity.
Okay.
Let's hold on that and take a short break.
We'll be right back, folks.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
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You know how we are.
Well, John, we've covered quite a bit, but there's still a couple of more minor points that we've got to get through, and then we're going to go to the phones.
So let's get to those.
We've got to do something back in the receiver, don't we?
Yeah, Bill, there's several things that can be done back in the action and receiver.
I would say representing a 10% to 15% return and improvement would be the operation of locking lug and lug recess lapping.
That is to say, matching and lapping for more precise alignment, more precise headspace.
Oftentimes that operation is performed in conjunction with a barrel setback, as we call it, or re-chambering, re-headspacing.
And that will realize, as I say, it will net you about a 10% to 15% gain in consistency.
and see.
Otherwise, from there we move to shooter personalization and ergonomics, which simply means makes it more comfortable so the shooter isn't flinching or jerking or the trigger doesn't
Release when it's supposed to, and all these other things that can make shooting not very good.
Absolutely.
A proper trigger job for a highly tuned, what I call, utility field rifle, still safe for field use, whether it be hunting or what have you.
Uh, is in the neighborhood of 44 ounces set for release, and a total elimination of what is commonly referred to as creep, you know, trigger creep.
In other words, uh, that triggers release is rendered absolutely crisp and surprising at the let-off.
Yes, I, I, uh, there's a lot of shooters who don't understand that If you know when the rifle is going to fire, you're doing it wrong.
That's right.
It should be a total surprise to you.
You should be squeezing that trigger very gently, and when it releases and fires and all the conditions are right and you're holding your sight picture and breathing correctly, you should get a very good shot.
But if you know exactly when that's going to fire, that means you've consciously yanked on that trigger in some way, and you're not going to have as accurate a hit as you should.
That's correct.
So the trigger job just makes that function easier.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Trigger control is still, from the shooter's potential standpoint, still 50% of the game.
So, at the very minimum, 50% of the game.
The rest of the game, With regard to the shooter is mastering proper breathing, proper sighting and sight acquisition techniques, most commonly, obviously, in the category we're discussing this evening, through utilization of various kinds of optics, you know, types of optics.
There's so many types of octaves out there, we're really not going to get into that.
That's a matter of personal choice and there are some rules to follow, but we might cover that at some other night, but not tonight.
Ten hours plus discussion.
Really?
There it is.
Fit and balance is highly important ergonomically as it pertains to, again, the shooter comfort and precision potential.
So, therefore, length of pull properly calculated and fitted, good, comfortable, and forgiving recoil pad system fitted.
And the compensator certainly helps with recoil also.
Yes, it does.
Also helps with reacquiring your target or sight picture, as it's called, after firing around.
Commonly referred to as recovery time.
Right.
Yes, that's right.
Now, hopefully, folks, folks, this has given you a rough outline of where to begin with regard to the existing family weapons or something to look for in a new purchase,
new or used purchase, but new acquisition to the new or used purchase, but new acquisition to the owner, and then what to do with the item after it's obtained in order to derive maximum potential performance.
Some of these are absolutely not up to the decision of the shooter because the more of these things you can do, obviously, the more accurate your weapon will be, and then some of them are matters of personal choice that you have to make a decision on yourself.
One thing that we've discussed is a rule amongst good marksmen, and that is a bolt-action rifle is generally more accurate than a semi-automatic and an automatic for what we're talking about.
Well, an automatic in my book isn't something that anybody should own to begin with, not because of the law or firearms regulations, but because of the amount of ammunition that it expends that can't be recovered once it's gone, compared to the number of hits that you compared to the number of hits that you will obtain by firing that amount of ammunition.
So, and that doesn't mean that there are not weapons out there that a particular shooter is used to that's a semi-automatic weapon that cannot be very accurate at 500 yards and out.
That's a rarity, and it's caused by someone who is very used to that weapon and who is a very good marksman.
I'll point out, even though it's off the subject and we're sidetracking, I'll point one exception to that rule out, and it's a production exception in no way involving any custom work or aftermarket application at all.
And that is the West German product commonly known as the Heckler & Koch series of weapons.
Specifically the 308 7.62 NATO chambered Model 91.
There is a semi-auto capable of keeping right up with any turn bolt of the same chambering.
It's also very expensive, but extremely well made.
I mean, you're getting what you pay for with that weapon.
It's also heavy, too.
They're 9.5 pounds empty without any accessories.
No attachments on it.
That's correct.
But actually, Bill, when you stop to think about it, that's the equivalent weight of an M1 Garand from World War II.
Yeah.
Well, most of the weight from the M1, I always felt, came from all that wood they stacked up on it.
Let's go to the phones.
You ready?
I'm ready.
Okay.
Good evening.
You're on the air with Joan.
Hi.
Can I ask a different question, Bill?
This relates to... Good night.
520-333-4578.
I don't know what gets in somebody people's heads.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hi, Bill.
Yes.
How are you tonight?
I'm fine.
Listen, I'd like to know what John thinks about the savage, the way they button-pull the barrel, and if he could work up a savage to do, they guarantee one minute of angle, if he could get it down below that.
Absolutely.
Actually, there's no production bolt-action centerfire rifle issued that cannot be improved.
As a matter of fact, it won't be improved by particularly the top two items on the list of priority modifications.
And I will add to that also that button rifling process in barreling, or that is actually barrel broaching, is no particular detriment or disadvantage to potential precision if it's is no particular detriment or disadvantage to potential precision if it's loaded And what I mean by that is that maximum potential,
I should have probably prefaced the entire conversation by interjecting that hand-loading is a prerequisite to ultimate potential with any weapon, no matter I should have probably prefaced the entire conversation by interjecting that hand-loading is a prerequisite to ultimate potential with Okay.
You're on the air.
Yes.
Hello, gentlemen.
I wanted to ask your guest there, Bill, if there's a good device that you can attach to a semi-automatic weapon for collecting your brass.
And, of course, anybody that does reloading is painfully aware of how much you have to look for brass after you do some shooting.
Oh, we wouldn't know about looking for brass, would we, John?
No, that's one of the penalties of semi-auto ownership.
There's no doubt about it.
Last time we went out we spent a lot of time looking for brass.
I'd have to say amongst the devices over the years that I've seen and a lot of your aftermarket injection molding outfits have produced various types of brackets and bags and catchers and so forth that are made to clip or otherwise affix over the ejection port of all various types of everything from pseudo-SMGs to so-called assault rifles.
Most of those, at the very least, alter in a very detrimental way the balance of the weapon as, of course, they accumulate the weight of the brass, firstly.
Secondly, virtually all of them that I've ever observed in actual use tend to interfere with the basic function of the weapon.
as in kicking empty cases or expended cases back through the ejection port, interfering with the bolts travel and stove piping and so forth.
So I'd have to say that the old method of spreading a white sheet and carrying a metal detector along with you for practice sessions on the range is still one of the best solutions.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Good evening, Mr. Cooper.
Yes?
I'd like to ask a question.
What's your opinion on the Savage 110E as an Echo?
It's a 7mm mag.
I'm not at all a fan of the cartridge.
However, I believe I listed or included the Savage 110 series of factory rifles in my list of commonly available and perfectly acceptable.
Satisfactory choices, you know, for the purposes that we're discussing here this evening.
Now, I'm going to get a letter and somebody's going to say, what's wrong with the cartridge?
Well, to answer it as concisely as possible, first off, the 7mm Magnum is a known, what we call, barrel burner.
It's extremely tough on bores, particularly throats.
Throat erosion will set in within just a few thousand rounds and so therefore barrel life is very short.
Potential benefit ballistically can be far exceeded with a highly precision tuned rifle in some .30 caliber and my emphasis would still be on one of the standard .30 calibers as in .30-06 or .308 for that matter.
Okay, thank you.
Annie, if you're listening, I left some white computer paper on the table right there where I normally sit, where you're at.
If you would have Pooh bring those up to me, I would really appreciate that.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yes, sir.
I'd like to ask you, or your guest, what would be the proper way to work up a good load?
Let's say, for an example, say a 308, using, say, the sphere book, the tables.
and you have a chronograph available, what would be the way and what you're looking for in the data to come up with a good long-range accurate road?
And also, how far away from the end of the muzzle would you put the skyscreen?
And I'll go ahead and listen out the air.
Thank you.
Let me start with the last portion of the question first with regard to placement of the chronograph.
And for standard chambers, based on the amount of typical muzzle blast from those nets, the main consideration and placement of your chronograph for its protection and safety, I would locate it 10 feet from the muzzle, typically on a 308, I would locate it 10 feet from the muzzle, typically on a 308, or for that matter, any other so-called standard
Magnums, typically, I'll locate my chronograph out from the muzzle 15 feet distance.
Now then, the rest of the question was...
I want to know what you would do to work up a hand load round for .308 that would be optimum, I guess, but we don't know what weapon he's talking about or the length of the barrel or anything else.
Well, actually, the procedure, Bill, basically is going to be the same.
for all chamberings, really.
My scientific approach to what I call building a load, and in this case it was 308, is first off, determine what the rifling or twist rate is for your rifle in that chambering or round.
Now I can tell you up front that most typically, we're talking 95% of the available rifles chambered .308 are going to be a 1 turn and 12 inch twist rate.
That immediately in the available .30 caliber bullets would implicate the use of a minimum bullet weight of 150 grains to a maximum of approximately 165 grains And beginning with a book, accuracy load is a step-saving way or a more efficient way to approach the powder charges that are available.
I would begin with, for example, your typical Lyman manual's recommended accuracy load for a 150 grain bullet.
And I would work from there based on two things.
Number one, the group printed on paper at 100 yards.
If the group is close to satisfactory and pressures indicated on the spent casing are moderate to light, indicated from the visual results, Then chances are I would go up from the accuracy load, which is typically what we call mid-range load.
It's somewhere between a minimum charge and a maximum charge.
And I would work up in one half grain or 0.5 grain increments with the recommended powders.
More than likely in the 308 case is going to be IMR 4895 powders.
And I would do so until one or two things happen.
Either you max out according to the book with regard to maximum charge or you reach a point at which in half grain increments you've literally placed five rounds practically or very close to one hole on paper at 100 yards.
There's a couple of other things that affect consistency.
And you taught me some of these things.
One is to weigh your bullets and make sure that they're all exactly the same weight.
You taught me that the primers... I used to think all primers were the same, folks, and they're not.
They're absolutely not.
And the other thing is, well, you have to have a good powder scale that consistently weighs the powder the same and doesn't give you an over or under.
But something else that's important also is that the shells must be cleaned inside.
Yes, and another thing regarding the brass, Bill, is that not only should bullets be what I call batched according to weight, but firstly, regarding the casings, the casings should all be matched as to head space.
Typical example is, if the majority of a person's holdings in empty cases happen to be Remington, then I would sort and batch all of those casings so that you're dealing with only Remington head stamps on the casing, identifying head stamps in any particular batch of match type ammunition first.
You can even batch the casings by weight.
And the truly serious Bencraft shooter certainly uses this approach along with literally batching primers by weight of a known quality brand.
And typically in my case, my first choice usually is Winchester and primers of an appropriate size and intensity, whether they're standard or Magnum or what have you, whatever's called for.
For that particular load, but literally weighing the casing and then batching or categorizing by consistent weight, utilizing, let's say, plus or minus two-tenths of a grain does one thing, and that is it narrows the consistency of the
Yeah, and specifically that pertains to the number of times that round has been reloaded and fired and then trimmed over a period of time and over a period of reloads.
your dimensions are going to be held to a very close tolerance.
Yeah, and specifically that pertains to the number of times that round has been reloaded and fired and then trimmed over a period of time and over a period of reloads, there's a significant loss in brass in that round.
Yes, that's one factor involved, yes.
Okay.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Thanks for taking my call, Bill.
Since you guys mentioned the Heckler & Koch PSG-1, I kind of felt obligated to mention that there is a United States-built .308-caliber semi-automatic rifle that will shoot pretty much just as well as all the bolt-action guns, and that's made by Knight's Manufacturing Company in Vero Beach, Florida.
It's called the Stoner SR-25.
You heard of them?
Yes, I have.
They use the same barrels in their weapons that the Remington puts on their police sniper rifles, and I have one such rifle, and it delivers five shots into an inch at 200 yards.
It's only, say, in the neighborhood of $2,500 instead of the $9,000 that the German rifle is, plus it's American-made.
The other thing I wanted to comment on is some of the militias here in this area, for optics, which is something you haven't discussed, are using I'm going to try to get as many calls in as we possibly can.
Okay.
Thank you.
Thank you.
520-333-4578.
Let's keep the calls to questions for John.
He's in here for one hour.
Okay?
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello, Bill.
Hello.
I enjoy your show and I would like to ask you a question.
What do you think about this?
A Chinese 746-54.
Largely way overrated rifle in its intended or advertised role as a semi-auto sniper rifle.
Now he said Dragunov, but then he said Chinese.
Oh yeah, the Chi-Com have produced a copy of the Dragunov, the Soviet Dragunov.
I just want to make sure that everybody understands that you're talking about the Chinese version of the Russian Dragunov rifle.
Yeah, the SVD is another designation for it, but essentially it's the Chinese produced counterpart to the Soviet.
Neither one lives up to what is generally set as the standard for any so-called precision sniper rifle.
Okay, we're going to take one more call.
If one more call comes in, 520-333-4578.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Good evening.
Comment and question.
Let's leave the comment out and let's do the question because we're out of time.
Certainly.
Stainless steel, carbon steel barrels.
I'll hang up and look for your answers.
Thank you.
Virtually without exception, my preference is to stay away from stainless, whether it's in barrel work or action work or parts fabrication in general for ordnance purposes.
Why is that, John?
although the age-old adage of there's no such thing as a free launch, you may gain some imperviousness to the elements, that is, corrosion resistance through 416 stainless commonly used in barrel material, billets, and corrosion resistance through 416 stainless commonly used in barrel material, billets, and
However, on the other hand, you lose the erosion resistance, friction resistance found in high-carbon 4140 ordnance tool steel, mostly encountered in high-quality barrel billets.
Preferences without exception always in favor of your carbon steel barrel.
Now, some people say that if you coat your bullets with some kind of a lubricant like Teflon and you coat the inside of your barrel with that, that'll improve your accuracy.
Is that true?
I've never seen particularly the application of synthetic lubricants to bores do anything but hamper serve as detrimental to accuracy in general.
In some cases, it's a very alarming result.
And after the first shot, it's generally gone anyway.
No, that's negative.
I've seen people literally apply, for example, Break Free or Tri-Flow is another brand name.
or tri-flow.
You're talking about something that soaks into the metal.
That's correct.
And attaches it.
It permeates the ferocity of the steel.
So you don't recommend that?
Not at all.
Okay, that's it, folks.
Good night, everybody.
And God bless you all.
Thank you, John, for being our guest tonight.
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