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Feb. 1, 1993 - Bill Cooper
57:51
Interview with James Mosley (Saucer Smear)
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Time Text
Once upon a lonely hollow, the easy hollow of the sky.
Once upon a good old blue, the beautiful and exquisite white.
Thank you for watching.
Welcome once again to the Hour of the Time.
Hello, folks. Welcome once again to the Hour of the Time. I'm your host, William Cooper.
Many of you have been calling wondering why so many reruns have been played over the last couple of weeks.
And I think if your ears are good, you have already figured it out.
I've been very ill.
In fact, for several days, I could not speak at all.
I'm just beginning to recover my voice, and I'm not supposed to be talking.
And if I talk for very long, I'm going to lose it again.
So, you're going to hear an interview tonight that you've never heard before.
This was actually taped on September the 21st, 1992, in Phoenix, Arizona.
The guest tonight is Jim Mosley, who has been involved in the research of the UFO phenomena for many, many years.
So, that's what you're going to be listening to.
For those of you who have called, worried about me and about my illness, I thank you.
It makes me very, very good to know that so many of you are so concerned about my health.
I left a message speaking just about in the same voice that you're hearing now.
That I had been ill.
And people would listen to this and at the end say, when are you going to have some new shows?
How come we've got so many reruns?
All I can say is that's the sheeple factor of coming out on somebody.
It just is beyond me how somebody can listen to that message and still ask a question like that.
But anyway, on we go.
I want you to stay tuned, folks, this Wednesday night for a very important show about the IRS.
You see, we're the only show in the whole world, radio, television, or anywhere that's ever exposed the IRS and the Federal Reserve for what they really are.
And now they're starting to practice damage control, and I want you to pay attention who is putting out the damage control.
Remember that you weren't hearing anything on radio about the National Rifle Association.
That's how I came out and said, if you join the NRA, you've registered your guns.
Now you're starting to hear big ads on certain talk shows about the NRA trying to work their damage control.
And then on the Wednesday night, the same Wednesday night that we do our IRS show, a famous talk show personality had someone from the IRS whistleblowers practicing damage control.
I got news for you folks.
The IRS is in charge of the whistleblowers.
And if you work for the IRS and you want to blow the whistle, if you go to them, I guarantee you, you'll be in jail tomorrow.
Understand that.
None of them quoted any points of law.
They didn't quote any of the IRS rules or regulations.
They didn't give you real answers.
And I really like that one answer about, uh, is the IRS really a, uh, an agency of the federal government or is it a private organization?
Well, the IRS has always been autonomous.
He didn't give a real answer.
Folks, I'm going to try to get that guy on this show.
I'm going to bring him on this show.
I'm going to interview him by phone if he's got the guts.
And we're going to talk about points and law-specific points.
And I'm going to bury that guy under his own bullshit.
Because that's exactly what it is.
Remember, they're starting to show their true colors.
And the only place you're going to hear the real, real nitty-gritty is on this show and nowhere else.
On the other shows, when people ask you about the Freemasons, they dance around and say, Oh, it couldn't possibly be a conspiracy.
Freemasons aren't involved.
Someday I'm going to get an expert in Freemasonry on this show, and we're going to cover it.
But they never do.
And when they do, the person that's the expert will be a Freemason.
Mark my word, folks.
Now, I'd like to talk some more.
I've got a lot to talk about.
My trip to England, everything.
But I can't.
I just can't.
I hope you'll understand.
The doctor has given me quarters to shut my mouth, and that's exactly what I'm going to do.
So, listen to this interview.
It's a good interview.
I think you'll like it.
And if you're interested in the UFO phenomenon at all, you're really going to like it.
If you're not, I think you'd better listen to it, and you'd better get interested in the UFO phenomenon, because it's got something to do with all of our futures.
So, without further ado, folks, here's the interview I did in September the 21st, 1992, in Phoenix, Arizona, at, I forget what hotel, I think it was the Holiday Inn Hotel, with James Mosley, the publisher of a very sarcastic and satirical newsletter called Saucer Smear.
Hello, folks, and once again, welcome to the Hour of the Time.
We have a guest this evening who has been involved for many years in what some call
the UFO community or the UFO research community.
He has a publication called Saucer Smear that is disseminated to a few select individuals.
How he chooses these individuals I do not know, but one arrives in my mailbox religiously.
And I think Jim has some insights into the UFO phenomenon that may not have occurred
to you, our listener.
And I think that I value his opinion.
We have met at many of the conferences around the country, which I go to, and sometimes as a featured speaker, sometimes just as a passionately interested observer.
But Jim, welcome to the Hour of the Times.
Well, thank you for having me, Bill.
I'm glad to be here.
What got you started in your interest in UFOs?
Well, way back in 1953, when I was a young, innocent person, or relatively so, I met a professional writer, and I was just trying to break into writing, and he knew that I had an interest in UFOs, a vague interest, because we got talking about it.
He said that if I went around the country and did the legwork, so to speak, and interviewed all these people that had been in those early UFO books and tried to get to the bottom of the UFO subject, then he would co-author a book with me, a real professional book.
And that sounded real good to me, and I wanted an excuse to go do this anyway.
So I took my car and I had some time and money.
I went for about three and a half, four months in the latter part of 1953 into early 1954.
And I interviewed two or three hundred people who had been written up as contactees, or as ordinary people who would make sightings, or as scientists who had commented on the subject of life on other planets, or anybody like that.
And then I got all this data together, and then we never did do the book.
It's a punchline there, but that led to my original publication called Southern News, which I began in 1934, and it continued for quite a number of years, and then finally I don't know.
the seventies, early seventies and then make a long story short I came back into it again
in a way that more suits my own personality which is I'm not really interested in sightings
anymore especially after all these years.
I'm interested in the personalities and the new aspects of the subject that come along
such as abductions or MJ-12 or Area 51 which is your cycle area.
All these things excite and interest me, but a lot of it bores the hell out of me, too.
So I do it my way in my magazine and let the other people take care of the sightings and what I call the mundane stuff.
When you first were introduced to people who said that they had talked to someone from another planet or that they had experienced a UFO sighting, I know that that was many years ago and you're Ideas and your attitude has certainly changed, I know that too, but what was your first response to these people?
I mean, could you sit there and really look them in the eye and keep a straight face and believe what they said?
Or were you the reluctant skeptic?
How would you explain your reaction to what you were hearing?
Well, I'll tell you, that's a good question.
I remember the George Adamski case, which was the biggest one of the early 50s.
I first read about that when somebody sent me a newspaper clipping from Boston.
I don't know why it was from there.
It talked about this professor from Mount Palomar and a doctor, who I assume to be an MD, and I think five other people who were talking to him on this desert contact, which was the first incident that George Odansky had.
I thought, oh my God, if it's a professor from Mount Palomar, a medical doctor, and these other people, one was a radio specialist, and they all sounded very high class.
And I thought, well, if they're saying that they met a faith man on the desert, I should believe it, I suppose.
But then I got more into it, you know.
When George Adjansky lived near Mount Palomar, the professor was self-appointed, or at least appointed by his friends and fans.
George Hunt Wigginson had a self-appointed doctorate or something very close to it.
I know he never graduated from the University of Arizona because I checked that out myself.
He had no real degree.
And the other people were just amateurs.
One was a radio ham and this, that, and the other.
So when I got that far with it, I was already getting suspicious.
And then one of the people I interviewed on that trip I just mentioned was George Udansky and all but one of his witnesses.
Then I started to talk to other background people that knew them and had something to add, and then I wrote an exposé.
So I went all the way from the first slush of believing it, and I did have the will to believe.
I think we all have.
Wouldn't it be wonderful, you know, if it were true?
Sure.
But by the time I finished with Georgia Gansky, I didn't believe a word of it, but I always did like him.
and that's another thing that I think you understand.
I kind of make two columns and they have to overlap a little bit.
But one is the guy's story.
Do I take it seriously?
Do I think it's true?
Very often the answer is no.
But on the other hand, the same guy, like you and I for instance,
we might just be friends without that.
Because I grow by what he's like and how he treats me and how he seems to treat other people.
And if he's been to Venus on the side, well, I just try not to hold that against him.
Like that problem we were just sitting with down at the pool.
He's been underground on Mars.
Other than that, he seems fine.
I don't hold that against them. I sort of provide it the same way. I mean, I have another column that's harmless or
benevolent. If they're benevolent and they've been underground on Mars or they've walked under the sun and
talked to...
Walking under the sun is very hard.
And there are still nice people and they don't seem to be harming anybody.
That's okay.
If they seem to be malevolent or malicious, it's pretty hard for me to be friends with those kinds of people.
Well, I agree.
Sometimes it does.
Maybe we shouldn't just name a couple that I feel that they're My story isn't good, and their personal conduct isn't good either, and so then I just don't like them.
I mean, it's true.
Well, Bud Hopkins comes to mind.
Not that you asked, but Bud Hopkins is a favorite subject of mine.
In fact, in my book I documented where he was practicing bad psychotherapy on these
people who claimed to have been abducted, holding actual group therapy sessions, and
has no psychological degrees or training or whatever, cease whatsoever.
And a doctor who he had conned into getting, into help him with this stuff, brought this
to the attention of the state medical board in New York State, and what happened is they
never did investigate, but Hopkins, the...
They took the medical license away from the doctor who made the complaints.
That sounds like fun.
Now I had somebody I was talking to the other day.
We were talking about Bud Hopkins and I said, as an artist, which is what he's supposed to be, how can he be practicing psychiatry?
And this guy came up with a line that I wish I'd come up with.
He said, well, he must have heard that psychiatry is an art.
And so is it just part of his artistic work?
Well, you know, technically he's absolutely right because psychology is not a science.
You're right.
It is an art and the artist seems to change with the artist.
You got it.
There are so many theories about the practice of psychology that you can take your pick and who knows what's what.
Well, I've known psychologists and psychiatrists professionally and socially, quite a lot of I've been on five hour radio show with big psychiatrists in New York City and my general conclusion is they're at least as crazy as we are.
Most of them.
Oh absolutely!
In fact one study, I thought this was the most interesting study of all the studies I've ever looked at in my life, showed that psychologists generally pick the field Because they feel that there's something mentally wrong with them and they hope to be able to treat themselves and thus keep it a secret from their family and their friends.
You're very close.
I've heard that and I think there's a lot of truth in it.
And at one point they had the highest suicide rate of all the professions and I don't think that's true anymore but at one point it certainly was true.
I've heard that too.
Jim, over the years what have you come to think about this whole field in general?
Well, that's a hard one.
There's an awful lot of nonsense.
There has to be a germ of truth somewhere.
My personal opinion is that insofar as any of this is real, we are dealing with a genuine mystery which is beyond our present-day science.
and very simply as we all know science has to have an event which can be duplicated under
controlled conditions.
If you do a certain thing under conditions A through X right and you write up a paper
on it and another scientist reads it and he sets up conditions A through X same thing
happens again so you're okay.
But when you have a UFO sighting or a psychic experience or an abduction or any of these
things that are in the weird realm you might say they happen let's assume but you can't
make it happen again under the same conditions.
You can't duplicate it.
So it boils down to the person's words.
You choose to believe them or you don't.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's not real or it isn't true on some level.
And I think as good as science is, in theory, and as good as our scientific method is, having gotten us to the moon and done real things, there is something lacking in it.
It's going to have to be improved and modified And someday, perhaps long after we're gone, I would assume and hope that they're going to find out what all this is about and prove it scientifically, whatever is behind all this.
It's not from another planet.
I think that's extremely unlikely.
More likely something within our own environment, another dimension, which is a stupid way of putting it, but a lot of people put it that way.
I don't know what that quite means.
It just means we don't understand.
It's something we don't understand and we're not likely to.
And if we did understand it, we still couldn't prove it.
So you come to a convention like this and you hear people talk.
Each guy has a different starting point.
Each guy has a different ending point.
But not one of them can prove scientifically any reasonable fraction of what he's saying.
So it's his opinion.
And if you like it, you listen to it.
If you don't like it, you go to the pool, which is what I was about to do a minute ago, until I grabbed you.
Right.
What about the historical perspective?
Do you believe that this interpretation of historical events to show that intervention from these people who are supposedly right around these floating disks or egg-shaped craft, or the many different ways that they've been described, Do you think that that's a correct interpretation, or do you think that... Absolutely.
In other words, you're asking, do I think that space people have interfered with our past history?
I reckon not necessarily space people, but whoever it is.
In other words, if someone back in ancient times wrote that something came down from the sky and talked to them as if it was God, Any way that you want to interpret that, do you think that that's a literal interpretation, that someone did come from the sky and talk to this person and could have been extraterrestrial or somebody from the future if time travel is real?
You know, I'm going to beg the question.
It's possible, but it's unproven.
I'm an amateur archaeologist as well as being interested in UFOs.
Uh, Doug, for artifacts in Peru years ago and picked up a little archaeology as I went along.
I'd never studied it or anything.
But a few things come to mind.
You know, someone like Bondanican comes along and he'll look at these designs or drawings or human-like figures on pottery or on cloth or on stones or whatever.
And he'll say, well, this looks like a space man and this looks like a guy with a helmet on.
Can't you just see that?
Well, you know, that's like the old inkblot test.
I mean, you can see what you want.
If you're determined to believe in space men, then you can reinterpret some of these things the way you like.
But, you know, conventional archaeologists go to the other extreme.
They insist that Columbus was the first guy to, you know, get here, and he wasn't.
And, you know, they have a lot of Ideas which are untenable, but they stick to them.
So, you know, you can go to either extreme.
I think our prehistory is so poorly known and understood, and so little of it has been dug up and properly analyzed, there again you have a mystery area.
I don't think there's an answer to that, at least I don't have it.
Anything's possible.
You wonder, for instance, genetically, how The human race went from a relatively primitive, almost animalistic state probably not more than 10,000 years ago and so quickly, you know, 10,000 years in the whole evolution of this planet is just a moment in time.
How did we come this far this quickly?
Pretty soon, you know, there was the Egyptians who were relatively civilized and then on up from there and we're somewhat civilized perhaps.
But that all happened awfully quick, so maybe there was some interference from some other realm.
I mean, it's not inconceivable, but it is sure enough proven.
It's always interested me in my study of the Mystery School, as I find this legend of Lucifer always popping up.
Something that fell to Earth from the sky and imparted knowledge to man, which they named Lucifer or Satan, and the source, the God of the Bible, said you're not supposed to have this knowledge.
You don't either, but fruit of the tree of knowledge.
And that's caused us tremendous problems ever since, and nobody really knows what it was that really happened back then.
Everybody's asked to take the different interpretations of the different religious rules of thought as an article of faith, and I'm not making judgment on any one of them, and your religion and my religion doesn't have anything to do with this conversation.
I don't want to get into that, but it appears that somewhere in history something happened
that man who didn't think before began to think for himself and discover how to grow
plants and build cities to protect themselves from each other and animals and make weapons
and forge metal out of rock and all kinds of things.
One of the things that has always impressed me, and I'm never able to verbalize how impressed
I am by this, but my great grandmother, Grandma Vance, came across the United States in a
covered wagon.
She didn't have a poor me.
She had to pump water up from a well, when they had a well, or get it from a stream, or whatever.
Her first home was a sod house on a prairie in West Texas.
She lived through Indian wars and saw several of her neighbors killed by wild Apache Indians,
who to them, they didn't consider themselves wild.
They were civilized and here we were taking their land, and they're trying to keep their land.
I was narrow-minded of them.
I was very.
But anyway, before she died, she had seen all of the technology, up to and including
the development of the Boeing 777, and it had flown in the sky.
Now this to me is absolutely beyond my wildest dreams.
I can't even imagine how she was able to cope with the transition from where she came from
to where she ended up, and still having this modicum of sanity left.
But what you're saying is that technology is moving so fast it's like a geometric progression or something.
There's no time that we know of in human history that things have changed technically as fast as they are now.
And to go on from that, if this continues for just another hundred years, There's no way of imagining.
Again, if we don't blow ourselves up or overpopulate or do something dreadful, I mean, but we today can't really grasp what the world could be like in a hundred years.
That's correct, and I think that was one of the main themes of the movie 2001.
I think Arthur C. Clarke was trying to tell us that our technology is reaching the point where maybe we can't control it.
And that was signified by the whole battle between the astronauts and the computer, HAL.
The astronauts represented, in a microcosm, humanity, and HAL represented the sum total of man's technology, and HAL was out of control.
That was a wonderful movie.
It was a tremendously wonderful movie, and it had a lot more in it than just that, that you don't have time to go into.
But I was really impressed by everybody's thinking behind that, and I grasped it immediately when I was watching the movie.
But I was not impressed by the solution, which was to unplug Hal.
And that led to, supposedly, in Arthur C. Clarke's mind, a paradigm shift in the quaking consciousness of humanity and the birth of the new man, which was signified by the feet exploding in space.
I thought it was unfortunate they had to take him apart, you know, two by two.
If they ever do build a computer that good, I would hope there'd be a little off and on switch.
Yes.
And he's off!
Wouldn't that have been a movie, but it would have been a lot quicker.
That's true.
But there was a real warning there, I think, that maybe we need to heed.
Because I know that in most of the technologies now, Almost impossible for any person to understand the whole extent of it.
So you have people specializing in a small field.
Absolutely.
Which means that nobody really knows the whole overall picture and that could very well be
used to get people to build something in product.
What do you think about the theory that this whole thing might be a manipulation and that extraterrestrials are not real at all?
that actually realized where it was going to be used for.
It's a very good point and that's not at all impossible.
Yeah, I agree with you.
What do you think about the theory that this whole thing might be a manipulation
and that extraterrestrials are not real or not?
Well, now this is what you've been talking about recently and I find that a very intriguing theory.
For quite a while I got halfway to where you seem to be and I was thinking we're always talking about how the
government is trying to suppress UFO information at all.
First of all, there's a problem there, because, you know, if they're real space people, why?
Why are they always going to land where the government can grab them before hardly ever, you know, anybody sees them, you know?
I mean, they could do it better than that if they really wanted to try.
So there's something wrong to begin with.
But, you know, they make a pretty good case that here, you know, if it weren't for the government secrecy, we would know the truth and why can the government do this to us?
And then I got thinking, what if it were just the other way around?
That they're planting these stories and they want us to think they're space people even though they aren't any.
But I stopped right there.
I never got to where you did because I couldn't do the second part.
What reason would they have?
What could be worse than being invaded from another planet?
You see, why would they make up something so scary as that?
You know, to hide what?
I couldn't get to the what.
But you, you come with a plausible answer in a certain way.
I won't say.
I agree with you tentatively, which is a polite way of saying I don't know.
Well, you see, I never considered this.
And I was exposed to information when I was attached to Austin Able and Sonics.
I took it at face value as being real and never dreamed that maybe I was being used
to disseminate information to help build a threat that didn't exist until in my research
I'm going back through history trying to find reference to UFOs in history and I came across
documents of, which I thought was very interesting, of the Japanese Imperial delegation that came
to the United States in 1917.
And there was a speech made by John Dewey who's touted as the father of our, of our
failed education system today and he's supposed to be a great man but anybody, to me, who
fathers a failure is not a great man.
And our education system has certainly failed.
If John Dewey is the perpetrator of it, then he's a failure, period.
He's not great in any book.
But he made a speech and the first sentence in his speech to Prime Minister Ashigi of
the Japanese Imperial delegation was this, quote, someone once told me that the best
way to unite all humanity in one world government and do away with war forever is if we were
attacked by some other species from some other planet, unquote, and I was dumbstruck.
dumbstruck.
It was this somebody that hit me upside the head with a two-by-four, and that's what it was.
It was a mental two-by-four that shook my thinking around.
And put it in a different perspective that I've never considered before, that if these people, these elite, who are behind the scenes with their influence and their money and their power, can really make things happen, what a one-world government!
What better way to get people to cooperate with them than to present the earth with an enemy?
Whether it be this or not, the average Joe on the street could never, ever realize the time in his life where he could authenticate it or disprove it.
Because he would have to trust that the government was telling him the truth, because he can't go into outer space and see for himself whether there is something there or not.
Well, Reagan made three or four different statements.
Six.
Six, yeah.
And who was it?
Khrushchev at that time?
Or Gorbachev?
Gorbachev made a similar statement.
And to say it once would be reasonable, because it's not a strange thing really to say, but to say it a number of times so people will remember it.
Well, it's time for a break, folks.
Stand by.
Don't go away.
They never do that unless there's an extreme emergency at hand or they want you to get
to a particular point with no pressure.
Well, it's time for a break, folks.
Stand by.
Don't go away.
We'll be right back after this short pause.
I also found reference to the same thing in a report called The Report from Iron Mountain,
which is questionable as it's just a call for intensity, but there is no question as
to the genius for having its authorship.
Whoever wrote it was a genius, and he definitely spent a good deal of time contemplating the What's the name of this?
The Report from Iron Mountain.
Supposedly, it was a group of people hired by the government as a think tank, and the first place they met was a corporate records repository underground in solid granite called Iron Mountain.
What year was it?
This was back in the 60s.
And the name of the book is The Possibility or Probability of the Desirability The probability of permanent peace, the report from Iron Mountain.
And the whole study of this book is, what is the desirability, what is the possibility of permanent peace ever on this earth?
And the outcome of the whole book was that, well, to have permanent peace, instead of fighting amongst each other, we must present the earth with an enemy.
And the enemy could be pollution.
Yeah.
The enemy could be war.
And you could build a world army of anti-war warriors who would spend their whole time inspecting to make sure that nobody's making weapons and that nobody was gearing up for war and stuff like that.
In other words, presented all kinds of scenarios for an enemy for human rights and one of them, one of them was an artificial threat from outer space and it even postulated that some of the harder to explain saucer incidents of recent years, recent being when the book was written, Now, considering the rash of flying saucer movies and incidents back in the fifties that seemed to coincide with each other, and the day the Earth stood still, which was this man bringing his message of peace, you know, all of this seems to fit together, and to me has more validity than probably anything else, although I'm not ruling out the possibility of extraterrestrials or time travel.
Because one of the very real possibilities is if this is real, then it could be us engineering or re-engineering, if you will, our own future.
What do you think the objections consist of?
That's the thing I have the most trouble with.
And I guess it would be true of whichever of the contactees are sincere.
I think a lot of them are, in a sense, making it up.
But the ones who are not making it up, and then the vast majority of the objectees, who I don't think are consciously making it up, So here you've got people who are probably no crazier than most of us.
They're not crazy, that's not the answer.
And they seem to be sincere and they can probably pass lie detection tests and all that.
And yet what they're saying is, to me, ludicrous.
I can't get beyond that.
It's nuts.
It doesn't make sense in any of several ways.
What the heck is going on?
I'm asking you because I'm having trouble with it.
Well, Jim, I don't know any more than anybody else does.
I will tell you this, that there is some reality there, because these people sincerely believe that they're telling the truth.
Yeah.
And they're all telling the same story, and they don't know each other.
Right down to very small details.
But this really bothers me, because the story is too much the same, and it smacks of a mind control operation where everybody is given the same story to tell, and somehow this is repressing their mind.
I don't know.
their memories back from artificial stimulus, physical stimulus, at some point in the future.
I would imagine, isn't there a way, or couldn't there soon be a way, which means that somebody
like the government could already have it, of viewing a movie, so to speak, directly
into your mind?
I mean, it's already been projected.
I would assume so.
I mean, so it doesn't have to be space people doing that.
Martin Cannon, I think you said you have a problem with him, but whatever.
I've corresponded with him, and he's the one who goes by the theory that the government
I'm calling my head with Martin Shands, and he's a total and complete emotional wreck.
When he really does legitimate research, he does good legitimate research.
I could believe something like that quicker than I could believe that space people are doing it.
And all of this genetic stuff sounds like a Freudian nightmare to me.
The real creatures from another planet which might be 100,000 years ahead of us or a million years, how come they're only about 20 or 50 years ahead of us?
And how come they're doing a little bit better than us in the genetic area but have to do all of these crazy experiments and all?
If they're no more advanced than that, I don't know how they ever got here.
Therefore, I don't think they are here.
I don't think so.
with the abilities to give us, or to force us to accept something that we would normally
reject as being desirable or legitimate.
You see, for me it fits in right in perfectly with the blond hair, blue eyed, beautiful
men and big busted beautiful women who step off of these saucers, staying there from Venus
and bringing us the message of Karl Marx.
Well, I'd rather have them doing that than to have these ghastly little greys here.
You see, we didn't have any graves until probably the last ten years.
And in the early days, you know, we were talking how I started way back, it was similar because
almost all of these contactees that were around, and I met some of them in Giant Rock, California
and elsewhere, and they also were different sorts, they'd all been somewhere else and
they never two were to the same place.
But there were similarities that ran through them and I always felt being sort of a liberal
sort, even if there isn't a word of truth to it, what they're saying is harmless, it's
nice, it was peace and love and kindness and it was sort of the pre-hippie era, you know.
I thought, well, you know, let them say it and at least they're being nice and perhaps
there is something ultimately behind it.
Now, you've got more evil going on than good, I mean, from what we're talking about and reading about.
Well, this is the building of the trap.
And it's also telling us, and giving us too messy the paper, being threatened, and hey, we may have a friend out there.
So it's the old bad guy, good and bad team?
Well, that's what... You, I think, are a little bit more liberal than I, and you see the world as a fight between good and evil, and to an extent, who could say that it's not?
But I get suspicious when I see space people who have all of our failings.
Some of them are real good, and some of them are real evil, and some you're not sure about.
And so they're just as messed up as we are, and again, we are projecting our own hang-ups, so to speak, onto these creatures, if indeed they exist, and that makes me awfully suspicious.
Well, it does me too.
One of the things I get so upset about is, especially these people, some of them, when they come to me, all covered with fluff, and say, you know, you shouldn't get so upset about this, Don't worry about this UFO thing.
You shouldn't worry about the New World Order because the Benevolent Space Brothers are going to come and save us.
And to me, that's the height of folly.
It doesn't make any sense at all, even if there were any Benevolent Space Brothers.
Why in the world would they save us?
Exactly.
And number two, if we're making such a mess of our own world, who in the world would want to take us back to their world so that we can do the same there, unless we were in chains?
And so that really, really, I have a real problem with that.
I also have a problem with the concept that some people like John Lear are saying that they're sucking our blood and they're coming here to eat us.
I don't believe that either.
I think that we're responsible for whatever is happening on this earth and I don't think anybody else has got their little finger mixed in it.
We can't push our own failures onto a possibly mythical I think we're going to have to deal with this earth by ourselves, or at least make that assumption.
I don't know.
It's just like looking to God.
These faith people are gods and they're devils, and I'd rather operate without gods or devils as far as conduct is concerned.
And science is something else.
Science will tell us someday what, if anything, is behind all of this.
I think there is a psychic realm.
I think as I indicated earlier, I think there are things, I've had a few experiences myself, I guess almost everybody has, things that you can't explain in the usual five senses, you know?
There's something going on, I think there's an overlap between the human mind, between the psychic and whatever there is to this space business, but what it is, I don't know, but I think there is something very important that science is missing, and someday, as I said before, we might find out.
Well, I can't, you know, the politics of it is one thing, but I can't just automatically write it all off that way, and I don't think you do either.
There may be something real going on beside all of this political stuff.
Well, I think you're onto something, because for some time now I've been toying with the possibility that somehow science and religion are going to merge at some point, and that is going to form some kind of explanation to a lot of the things that bother us about this and many other things in the world.
I think at some point in our history the two were molded and came apart and for a long time maybe didn't even exist, at least in the science part of it, during the Dark Ages.
Well, I think astrology was astronomy in the beginning.
They were the same and then they split and now they're quite different.
I mean, I think astrology is, in my opinion, nonsense and you can't say the same for the other because it works.
I'm even seeing articles now that are saying that science and religion are going to make a reconciliation sometime in the future.
And that must be way down the line because, you know, religion may have specific codes that seem to be anti-social in their implications.
I can't imagine.
Well, I think there's always going to be a hard-core extreme fundamentalism in everything.
And like I said before, I'm not making judgments on this either way.
I try not to do that because anybody who begins to make judgments on either politics or religions will soon find themselves up to their neck in the honey bucket.
Well, if you've ever been to Japan, you know what that is.
So I try not to do it.
I try to look at opinions.
I try to look at articles.
I try to do research.
I try to put problems together without criticizing anyone for whatever they've done.
I really am a constitutionalist.
It's okay to me, although I may not believe it, and I may have problems about being friends with someone who worshipped the devil, so to speak, that I would fight for their right to do it, as long as in their worship of the devil they were not hurting anybody else.
And if I had a chance to sit down to them, I'd certainly try to talk them out of it.
But their right to do it, I would never dispute.
It's when they hurt somebody else by exercising their right that things have to stop.
Well, as I've told you, Phil, and I'll say it again, I find you the most interesting person at these conventions because, whether I agree with you or not, every time I go to one of your things, you're expressing new ideas.
And I'm a pretty big thinker, I think, since you've come up with a lot of things that I hadn't put together before in the same way.
And I think, well, that doesn't sound reasonable.
In this case, or that's something that I might want to think about or learn more about in a different case.
So it's not the same old jazz.
I mean, at these conventions, most of it.
I mean, why am I here instead of down in somebody's workshop right now?
Or in a pool.
Oh, well, the pool is neutral.
But I mean, there's people speaking right now in this hotel and telling amazing stories.
And I look at the program.
I'm not even interested in going down to hear them.
A lot of repetition and leading to the same sorts of conclusions.
You put things together in new ways.
I find it very interesting.
Obviously, other people do.
You wouldn't be getting as much attention.
None of that is meant to imply that I agree with you.
Well, thank you, James.
Gray Barker was a great friend of mine, but no one ever felt that he was telling the truth, or at least of all that he felt that he was in the field of The same school of thought, you might say, as Ray Palmer, who was also an entertainer and a wonderful guy.
And the successor to all of that, funny enough, is our friend Timothy Greene's faculty.
He goes today, what those men did in their era, and he's doing it quite successfully.
I really like Tim because he's honest.
He's an American capitalist.
But he's in the market, you'll feel that way.
He admits he's a promoter.
And I can say this because I have the poster at home.
He was the producer of a porn film a few years ago.
Driller, I think was the name.
It was a take-off on Thriller.
I got it back then.
And, you know, his name's right on the poster.
And once I asked him, you know, how can you do porn on the one side and New Age on the other?
You know, isn't this kind of contradictory?
And his answer was very simple.
He says, I give them That's right.
And he's an honest promoter.
You can't ask for any more than that.
Everything that I've ever done.
He asks me to come and speak.
He promotes the thing.
He puts it all up.
It's always been in the handshake.
He has never tried to ever, ever take advantage of me.
He's always provided exactly what I need, when I need it.
That's something that supposedly went out in the last century.
Most people you wouldn't dare.
You wouldn't dare even dream of doing business with him.
What a handshake.
I've known Tim for over 25 years.
Actually, he was my advertising manager at Saucer News, a new office in New York City in the late 60s.
When he first got in the field, he came and worked for me on a salary.
I mean, I had actual paid people in this office.
He sort of ended it around 1970 and then he went on and stayed in New York City and eventually inherited some money and did what he's doing now and he does it quite well.
Yes, he does.
Where do you think this is all going to take us, Jim?
Where do you put Jimmy for the future?
What does he mean?
Well, let me try it this way.
You know I didn't know Dr. Heinrich awfully well but I knew him fairly well and he seemed
to be friendly toward me and he was a smear non-subscriber and he told me and I'm sure
many many other people what his motive in all of what he did was he wanted to learn
the truth in his lifetime and the poor man died of brain cancer as some of your people
will know and quite obviously he did not learn the truth in his lifetime and in certain circles
of science I guess he made a fool of himself and there are people in the field who think
he was too conservative and others thought he was going off the deep end toward the end
and so many people come along now that knew Heinrich you know better than they ever did
know Heinrich and There's one lady, I can't think of her name, is the story of his having seen top secret documents, you know, and you can't ask him whether that ever happened.
The point is, I'm not going to learn the truth in my lifetime either.
Neither are you.
No, and so I'm kind of disappointed in that way, so I just become the amateur sociologist and I enjoy I'm doing what I'm doing here, just carousing with people that I've known, and hopefully learning something new once in a while.
But it's not that I'm all that smart, but I don't care much at these conventions as far as I'm concerned.
People keep waiting for the government to make a big announcement.
Oh yeah, well I've been listening to that since 1954.
I think it's a perfect way to keep people hanging in the book, and it seems to work very well.
But I think even if the government were to make an announcement, we'd be absolute fools to believe what they told us, and I don't think we would know the truth even then.
And even if it was the truth, I don't think any of us would believe it.
Do you?
Well, you've pretty well got it, you know.
I mean, I don't believe much of what Bush says, and if he made an announcement like that, I'm not sure I'd believe that either, you know.
Why would I just suddenly change my whole attitude about the man?
I will tell you a little secret that I've never told anybody.
I called J. L. O'Hara, and he came to talk to me one time, and we had a pleasant conversation.
He didn't know who I was, and we never met personally, but we had a nice conversation on the phone.
And at one point I asked him, point blank, I said, What do you think all this means?
What is the sum total of all of this?
And what he told me to do, he said, Read the books on Theosophy.
And what did he mean?
That's the point where I began my research in mystery schools.
I wonder why you say that.
I don't know.
It's puzzled me ever since, and now he's dead, so I can't go back and ask him.
Well, as I say, legends have grown up about him, and I think some of it is kind of tacky, you know.
Any famous person has people that know him a lot better than he knows them, you know.
It's that syndrome, you know.
When I was Dr. Hynek's right hand man, you know that kind of thing, the person that comes to mind first is Dr. Willie Smith.
Do you know him at all?
No, I don't know him.
I've read a lot of letters.
He's an arrogant gentleman.
I can't make it any stronger than that.
I can't tell you what I really think, but I've had some trouble with him.
Jim, on my show you can say whatever you want as long as it doesn't fall under the term of obscenity.
Well, libel, it doesn't have to be obscene.
Slander is what we're doing, not libel, but it doesn't have to be obscene to be slandered.
Don't worry about it yourself because I have no property so anybody who wants to see me will get absolutely nothing and I invite them to If you run to the courts until their face turns blue, they still won't get anything because they don't have anything.
Well, Roy Smith, if you listen to him, you know, he was going to take over all of Heineck's files.
And I forget what Smith calls his data base thing.
I can't think of the name at the minute.
But he was, you know, the heir apparent to Heineck.
But he's the only one that knows this.
I never heard Heineck mention it.
A lot of other people say that Smith is making this up, but again, we can't check with Heineck.
People like that really annoy me.
I know what you mean, because I've met four people who were personal assistants to Jenny Ellis Heineck, and I have no way of knowing if any really were or weren't.
That's exactly the kind of thing that I mean.
And one of those people, a lady, claims that Heineck was invited to a base in California, an air base I guess.
Part of the story I like is he's walking along the hall.
I guess this lady must have been there with him or she wouldn't have seen him or whatever.
And there's some officers walking down the hall ahead of Heineck.
One of them drops this folder, see?
And he doesn't bend over to pick it up so you have to take it for granted that he did it on purpose.
So Heineck comes up to the folder as he walks behind the guy and wonders whether he's supposed to pick it up and apparently He is, so he does pick it up, and then it's got all of its pictures of the craft and all the good stuff is there.
It sounds like... I haven't seen that folder, but it's out there somewhere.
It sounds like the same stuff that Linda Howe and me and many other people went through.
Personally, I think that, in fact I know, no other, if this is real, and if it's really top secret, No other top secret project in the history of top secret projects has been contained in a bucket with so many holes in it.
I mean the bucket is leaking like a sieve and they're all intentional and I know they're intentional.
And nobody, for instance, what's the guy Graham?
Lee Graham?
Lee Graham.
Lee Graham gets some of William Moore's Majestic 12 stuff and passes it around at the aircraft plant where he works at.
And then all of a sudden, here you got the security people sitting him down and questioning him.
He said he got it from Bill Moore, but they never did investigate Bill Moore.
Now, that's to convince Lee Graham that it's authentic material.
But they don't give a damn about where it really came from, because the whole purpose of the operation was to convince Lee Graham that it was authentic.
Or else, William Moore would be in jail right now.
Well, I, I mean, all these years, you know, going all the way back, there's all of these ex-servicemen who have seen a certain hangar or you know they were part of the team
that was carrying a body or saw something loaded onto a truck or they were here or they
were there.
They never have a photograph only drawings and their own memory and they never have a
piece of metal that says chopped off or something.
There's never any proof.
There's an awful lot of people telling similar stories and you can get carried away with
it but after 40 years they say come on.
I don't know why they're saying it, but they're not proving it.
Well, I think maybe in, maybe not all of these cases, but many of these cases, I think that what these people are saying is the truth.
And I think that they were set up to see these things so that they would go talk about it.
And they were intentionally deprived of having any proof so that they could never substantiate it.
Because I think that behind this is some effort to manipulate the people of the world.
Into something.
Right now it appears to be a one-world government coming together as one humanity to face this external threat.
But we can't prove that either, except that that's where this is going to ultimately lead us if they can make us think, collectively, all of us, that E.T.' 's are real.
Because that's all they have to do is make us believe that.
Whether they're benevolent or not, we can't take that chance.
We have to form together for our mutual defense if they're real.
That's true.
One other point on that other thing, and you and I were talking about this the other day.
If a guy has no need to know, and I know that much about security, it's basically a need to know.
So in some of these cases, if the sergeant or something, he's standing out on duty, Another friend of his said, oh, we've got a saucer in this
hangar over here.
Would you like to come take a look at it?
I mean, it's not incredible.
That's why I believe that these people are being set up.
I don't believe these people are lying or in debt.
I think they're telling the truth and what they're saying happens and it really happened.
But what they may have looked at was not really a saucer.
Oh, it's so easy to stimulate a saucer or an alien body.
Sure.
Take a baboon and cut off its tail, do a little reconstructive surgery on its ears and eyes, and shave it, and you've got a grave.
Well, you know, there's an alien body on the back cover of my book, which was printed by Beckley.
Unfortunately, the alien body turns out, as other people discovered, It's a wax dummy that was on display in Montreal, Canada in the early 80s.
And here it is wearing a jacket and a suit.
And so Tim, in deference to the exposé, said that in the next edition he's going to change the back cover.
I said, I don't care.
I said, you know, I enjoy selling the book.
I tell people that I didn't write it.
It was ghostwritten for me years ago.
It's a story there.
Anyway, you can put anything you want on the back cover.
I'm no more embarrassed than I would be otherwise.
So leave the fake alien.
Put a new back cover.
I don't care.
You know, it's all the same to me.
Well, we've got about a minute and a half left, Jim.
Can you sum up and just sort of... You've got a minute and a half.
What would you say to the millions of people that are going to listen to this broadcast on shortwave worldwide, all over the world?
I mean, tell them if you could.
Well, I'd say keep an eye on this subject.
There's something to it.
There's something interesting here.
Keep an open mind, which means, you know, you don't have to believe all of what anybody says, but there is something apparently going on, and as I've indicated, it seems to be beyond our present knowledge as far as science is concerned, and we'll hope that we'll learn more about it.
It won't be easy, and it won't be soon.
But meanwhile, it's a fascinating mystery.
You know, let me put it this way.
The human mind wants answers.
That's why you have religion.
You have a subject where there are no answers, and you invent them if you have to.
And that's why people form beliefs, solid, serious beliefs in a subject like this.
It has to be this, it has to be that.
It's that good of an answer, and if they're happy, I mean, that's fine with me.
But it doesn't mean that it's the answer just because it's their answer.
So it's not that simple.
You've got to embrace the fact that at a given point in human history there are things that we don't understand yet and we can just hope for the best.
Thank you Jim.
Well folks I told you that that would be a good interview and it was.
Everybody has a different viewpoint on the origin and the real story behind UFOs.
All I can tell you is that I've discovered that there is a secret, hidden technology.
And some of that technology, at least, is owned by the United States government and is flown from a super-secret test site in the state of Nevada called Groom Dry Lake, or Area 51.
I've been out there many times and have videotaped these craft in the air, flying, and they do things that absolutely defy the laws of physics as we know them.
But we may not really know the real laws of physics.
Maybe they've perfected a unified field theory and really have plugged gravity into the equation.
If that's true, then we may be being set up.
In fact, we may have been being set up since the end of World War II when they captured German technology along the lines of disc-shaped flying craft.
In order to create an artificial alien threat from outer space to bring about the formation of a one-world government, where humanity would be willing to give up whatever is needed in order to face that threat.
Think about it, folks, because I think that's what's really happening, although I can't explain all UFO sightings, and some of them could possibly be extraterrestrial.
But I think if the TV set is broken, it's absolutely foolish To go to the moon to try to get it repaired.
And if we see something flying in our atmosphere, it's equally foolish to go to Andromeda to find the answer to it.
So, folks, until next time, I really have enjoyed being with you tonight.
Tomorrow night, Darlene Sherrill's going to be here talking about fluoridation in water.
Absolutely fantastic show.
Don't miss it.
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