Alisa Childers On The Deconstruction Of Christianity And CCM
Alisa Childers is finally at The Babylon Bee to talk about her new book The Deconstruction Of Christianity and what is really wrong with the Contemporary Christian Music industry. Also, what in the world is going on with Andy Stanley and the Unconditional Conference? The Babylon Bee Podcast is brought to you by Alliance Defending Freedom. They defend your rights, so stand up with them: http://joinadf.com/bee Pre-order Alisa Childers' new book here: https://a.co/d/cAGX1Uy
All of the motivations for what songs they wanted us to write, what types of style they wanted us to do, what type, even lyrically what they wanted us to do, all was what would trend to make the most money.
And so there was no accountability as far as like, how's your spiritual life?
Or, you know, we want to make sure that you guys are okay.
It was, it was just like you're a commodity when you're an artist.
And so there's no foresight into even like, are you even a Christian?
I don't think anybody even ever asked me that, right?
It was just sort of like, this is the industry.
So I think what's going on is you have a lot of kids who maybe grew up in church.
They grew up in youth group, like music, formed a band, they get a deal.
And it might be that they've never even trusted in Jesus as their personal savior.
And now it's time for another interview on the Babylon Bee Podcast.
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Hey guys, welcome to the interview show here at the Babylon B. I'm Jarrett LeMaster and this is Emma with me.
So Emma.
Happy to be here.
You know what's funny?
I don't even know how to say your last name properly.
I've known you for a really long time and I still stay Cersei.
No.
Like Lannister.
It's scarce.
Scarce anyway.
Like the word scarce.
Scarce.
Kind of.
Oh, that's really cool.
With us today is a special guest in studio, Alisa Childers.
Really happy to have you here.
This is really, really cool.
This is really fun for me to get to see behind the scenes the super secret location and all of that.
I'm glad that you guys found it.
Yeah.
That's good.
It's hard.
Well, it's good directions.
We got good directions from you guys.
We had the van go pick them up and blide phone them and then we took them to this location.
So we didn't want to get fired.
Yeah, you would never know this is here from the outside.
No.
No, it's true.
It's just an industrial park in the middle of nowhere.
So I'll be selling that information on eBay.
Whenever we talk about this, Adam always says the actual address so that Adam, so that Dan has to go back in and cut it out.
So it's like, we're at, you know, like a jerk.
And it's slipped before.
People have figured out our old address from him doing that so many times and, you know, Dan or I not catching it.
And yeah.
So speaking of, you know, that's interesting.
We need to talk to our, I know the old address is up for sale.
I don't know if you know this, but the old address is up for sale.
I drove by it the other day.
I'm like, we should buy it because in history they will look back on this place as the second place the Babylon Bee existed.
Anyway, so enough about us.
More about you.
You are here.
You're kind of hanging out with your daughter going to Universal Studios and engaging in satanic activity by at Hogwarts.
At Hogwarts.
Drinking their mead and enjoying some butter beer and some satanic rituals.
Yeah.
How is the butter beer and how are the satanic rituals?
I hear they're very good.
Well, let's start with the butter beer.
Okay.
It's, you know, it's actually exactly what I thought it would be, which is basically cream soda.
Oh, yeah.
It's cream soda with a little bit of sort of, they put this milky kind of creamy stuff on top.
Oh, that's good.
But what I didn't know is there's two options.
You can get like the frozen, slushy kind, and then just the on-tap kind that's more like soda.
So and is the on-tap kind cold or is it just kind of it is cool?
Yeah, it's cold.
Did you get the giant donut from The Simpsons?
No, I saw, I did see the giant donut.
It's so good.
Have you had it?
Yes, I've had it.
But we did ride The Simpsons ride.
Oh, that's cool.
Which, yeah, we're all like having neck pain today.
Yeah, it's crying.
Not good.
No, that's really cool.
So you went out there, enjoyed butter.
You know, in the conversation beforehand, we found out that you like to ferment things and you make all kinds of things.
You make like mead, which is fermented, by the way.
It's honey.
It's honey and water.
It's honey beer.
Yeah.
Well, they call it honey wine, but yeah, it's honey and water fermented.
And it starts out kind of like a soda.
It gets carbonated.
And then you, I just let it go all year in a carbine and then I bottle it up.
Really?
You just set it.
While you're writing, you know, if you're like at a standstill.
No, it's kind of like a really special occasion kind of drink.
But so it's like a holidays type of situation.
But I flavor it with like orange peel and cinnamon.
Isn't mead kind of a Viking drink?
Yeah.
I actually read a book on the history of mead.
Okay.
And apparently it's the way that it was discovered.
Of course, I don't know how they know this.
So I don't know how valid this information is.
But, you know, the beehive would drip honey into like the hollow of a tree and then it would rain and it would just ferment and then they would drink it and be like, oh, that tastes really good.
And so then they thought that it was actual spirits animating the drink, the carbonation.
And so they would pray to Odin to ferment their mead.
Who do you pray to to ferment your mead?
I only let Jesus ferment mead.
No, Odin?
No, Odin at all.
No, I don't let Odin do that.
That's only for Hogwarts.
Does Jesus do carbonation well?
Yeah, he does.
It's amazing to me, like what happens with in nature, just when you ferment different things.
It's pretty, it's pretty fun.
That is interesting.
I think that's cool.
And you do bread and stuff too.
And the history behind bread is interesting.
They track it back to Egypt or something.
That's right.
Yeah, they have found like sourdough starter in tombs and things.
Oh, yeah.
That's good.
The homeschool mom's tombs.
Yeah, that's a pretty chock full of sourdough starter.
That's funny.
So you have a book out.
You have a new book out.
Yeah, it's coming.
With Tim Barnett.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay, that's great.
The deconstruction.
That's right.
He seems kind of like a jerk.
Is he kind of a jerk?
He's terrible.
It's awful.
Yeah.
No, he's great.
He's a great guy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's got a great YouTube channel, TikTok, Red Pen Logic, where he basically just responds to ridiculous claims against Christianity and all that stuff.
He uses a lot of rational and logical arguments, right?
So he'll be like, that is an ad hominem.
Yeah, so he'll use the Greek term.
Yeah.
I really like him, though.
Yeah, he's great.
He's great.
Yeah, but the subject is, as you were saying. Deconstruction of Christianity.
Yeah.
So it was really bizarre because I did not want to write any more books.
I was hip deep in edits for my last book when Tim texted and was like, hey, have you ever considered writing a book on deconstruction?
And I had noticed that Tim had been posting about deconstruction.
I really liked what he had been saying.
And so I thought, oh, man, I think we're going to have to do this.
So I said yes.
And then we researched and wrote this book.
And basically what the book is about is not so much, it's not the book you would give to somebody who is deconstructing their faith.
It's really for the friends and family and pastors of the person who has deconstructed to help them understand what's happening to their loved one and just to really understand what deconstruction is and how it's manifesting in culture and as it's connected to its postmodern roots and all that stuff.
So it's really hopefully going to be a good resource for the church.
That's well, your previous books have been exceptionally like they've been really, really helpful in my ministry that I've been doing.
And in our family, too, there's been a lot of deconstruction in our family.
So another gospel was really, really helpful there.
And I'm looking forward to reading this one too.
I've read parts of it all the way through.
I say that.
Parts of it all the way through.
In the parts of it that I read all the way through, you're talking about how we shouldn't try to rebrand deconstruction.
Because I remember when a lot of people, I went to a Christian college.
I was raised Christian, but not in the Christian culture so much.
So I didn't know any popular Christian people.
And then when deconstruction became such a big thing, you know, I think I was tempted to try to use it.
Like, okay, well, where is my, where am I questioning God and all these things?
And you said not to do that, not to use deconstruction and try to rebrand it and dissect your faith.
Yeah.
Well, and so in another gospel, I actually, you know, if anyone's read that, I talk about this faith crisis that I went through that was really difficult for me.
And in the book, I actually call that deconstruction, that I had been through deconstruction and then reconstructed.
But after doing the research for this book, I've actually, in the new book, I say actually don't use that word anymore because I think it actually means something different.
Because, I mean, if you think about five years ago, you had people like Josh Harris, remember, you know, purity culture icon, I kissed Aiden Goodbye.
And he came out with his deconstruction stuff.
I kissed Joshua Harris goodbye.
Yeah, we all, we all kind of had to do that.
But, well, he kissed Christianity goodbye.
He kissed Christianity goodbye.
There's so many good jokes.
Yeah, I know.
But, you know, that was several years ago.
And in his Instagram post, he even said the popular phrase is deconstruction.
The biblical phrase is falling away.
And so basically he was defining it as a deconversion.
And so I think everybody kind of understood that at that time.
You had Rett and Link, Ear Biscuits Podcast, the Gungers, all sorts of deconstructions.
Hawk Nelson, John Steingard from Hawk Nelson, and Marty Sampson, right?
Derek Webb.
So all these people were using the word basically to mean we're not Christians anymore or we're more progressive or we're spiritual but not religious, that kind of thing.
But then there seemed to be this sort of redefinition of the word.
And when I noticed this happened was, I don't know if you remember back maybe a year ago when this viral clip of John Cooper from Skillet from Winter Jam saying it's time to declare war on deconstruction.
And like half of Christian Twitter was like, yay, let's do that.
And then the other half was like, why are you so mean?
Why would you like it?
And they're like, I'm at Christianity today.
It's crazy that anyone would say, oh, that's so mean or that's so harsh.
It's like, well, have you ever listened to Skillet?
Yeah, no, he's not.
They're not super gentle.
You know, it's like, that would be, oh, is he so angry?
Yeah, every, he has to get angry for him to perform well.
He was just in his thing.
He was doing his angry thing.
He's more nuanced than he was.
You know, that's funny.
Yeah, yeah.
But so people were like, why is he being so mean?
But that's because they were defining deconstruction more like just having some intense doubt or engaging hard questions or maybe reevaluating the faith tradition your parents gave you.
And so they were like, well, why would you declare war on that?
And so in the book, we talk about how there was this like redefinition where this group of Christians were trying to almost sanctify the word or baptize it.
And so in the book, we even use examples like, it's kind of cringy when we do that.
Like, remember in high school when youth pastors would say things like, you know, you don't need a boyfriend.
Jesus is your boyfriend or don't get high on drugs.
Get high on the Holy Spirit.
And it's like, let's not baptize that stuff.
That's right.
And so in the book, we define deconstruction as a postmodern process of reevaluating your beliefs, not using scripture as a standard.
And that's really what it is.
It's more of a self-led evaluation of what you think about God rather than even looking out into reality and saying what is objectively true about God.
And if you're wanting what's objectively true about God, whether you like it or not, we're saying like, don't call that deconstruction.
Call that evaluating your beliefs.
Or, you know, or reformation even.
That's the word we actually use.
Yeah, that's what you use.
Like, use the word reformation because that's what they were doing.
That's what Luther was doing.
He wanted to reform beliefs according to scripture.
And if you're doing that, even if it takes you to a point of crisis, we would still urge people not to use the word deconstruction for that because really what you're doing is biblical.
If you're pressing hard on your faith and even, you know, the Bible says test all things, hold fast to what is good.
We are commanded to do that.
There's no like sacrament of deconstruction, like get saved, get baptized, and then deconstruct.
That's just not really a biblical concept.
Yeah, I like how you said that in the book.
Go out into the world and teach everyone to be a disciple of Christ and deconstruct their faith.
You're right.
Yeah.
The decommissioning of the disciples.
Yeah, right.
You know, that is really interesting.
Yeah, I was thinking about Kevin Max when you were saying all that and his story and how he switched over to the universal Christ, which is the Richard Rohr book.
He wrote a book called The Universal Christ.
And it's essentially a pagan idea that the universe sort of coalesced.
The first time I heard this, I was talking to a computer repair man.
It was like 20 years ago.
And he was like an open pagan.
He like had like a pentagram around his neck.
And I just remember he was a Satanist.
He was like a Satan worshiper.
And so we were just talking about his faith because I was just interested.
And I was like, what do you think about Jesus?
And he's like, well, he is the coal, you know, it's creation coalescing into one thing.
And he's in everything.
And he came together for a moment, but now he's dispersed back into creation and to all people and all things and stuff like that.
So the universal quality of divinity or whatever he was trying to describe.
And then when you hear Christians saying the same words, I'm like, these are pagan ideas.
These are pagan ideas.
You know, they're not Christian.
So it kind of makes my heart really sad.
And what do you do?
How do you talk to somebody that is dealing with a Richard Rohrian crisis?
Like now we're pagan.
Now we're polytheists or whatever.
Well, so the thing about Richard Rohr is what was really interesting is I got to talk with an ex-New Age guru who became a Christian.
And we did this like four-hour podcast where he was refuting the universal Christ.
And what he told me, I can't remember if he said it on air or off-air, but he said, you know, what's so bizarre about this is this is exactly what I taught when I was a leader in the New Age.
But he just uses a ton of Bible verses over the top of it.
That's the only difference is that he's slapping a bunch of Bible verses on.
So it's a concept.
The cosmic Christ is really popular in the New Age.
Universal Christ is Roar.
So it's very difficult, though, to talk to people who are into Roar for a couple of reasons.
Number one, Roar trains his disciples to embrace contradiction.
So if there's a logical contradiction, they're encouraged to just embrace that and not try to solve it.
And so like you live in the contradiction.
But then he also cautions his people against what he calls dualistic thinking.
So for Rohr, dualistic thinking is this either or mentality.
And so you need to just get rid of that and think in both and all the time.
And that's why that's how you can embrace contradiction.
So what it does is Roar, I mean, I'm sorry, but he contradicts himself constantly and speaks dualistically constantly.
You know, he's always saying God is not a God of wrath.
There is no atonement needed.
All these things.
But it's like, well, either there's atonement needed or there's not.
And he's doing the either or thing, but it's okay because you just have to live in that space of contradiction.
And so people, it's like really hard to talk to people.
George Orwell called that double think.
Double think.
Where you're believing something even though you're in contradiction, you know, or vice versa.
Absolutely.
And I kind of have this, whenever I talk to folks that are sort of engaged in this kind of thinking, there's always a superiority.
And I often find that they will say something like, well, the most intelligent people in the world can hold to opposing viewpoints at the same time.
Like the smartest people you'll ever meet can do this.
And so then you feel like, well, I guess I must not be very smart.
I'm not smart enough to do this.
Elon Musk believes that we're in a population crisis and Bill Gates believes that we're overpopulated and we're in a population crisis.
I would love for them to debate about it, but I don't know.
Maybe we're just giving them too much authority to be the geniuses representing the world.
I'd rather see like an MMA fight between Bill Gates.
When is Elon going to challenge Bill Gates to a fight?
I would pay to see that.
Oh, man.
We would all.
We would all pay.
I wanted him to fight Mark Zuckerberg even though he would lose.
And I was going to buy a ticket to Italy.
If he was going to do it in the world.
I would have gone too.
I would have gone.
Never been on a Europe vacation.
I'm going to start now.
It's a good excuse.
It's a good excuse.
In the Coliseum in Rome.
I know.
And the B would be hosting.
That'd be so good.
We missed an opportunity there.
But what's the, did the Deconstruction movement bring up any good objections to Christianity?
Or was it all just based on that personal, you know, I had a bad experience, so I'm going to deconstruct?
This is a great question.
So it's a mixed bag because you definitely do, when you really engage with all the Deconstruction stories, you definitely find stories of legitimate spiritual abuse, people coming out of real authoritarian type of streams of Christianity.
You find people who are conflicted over maybe some of the over-politicization of the gospel, things like that, but it's all conflated.
So really what deconstruction is, is leaving whatever they think evangelicalism is.
And what's interesting about that is the word evangelical means, it just means so many different things.
In fact, Carl Truman famously argued there's no such thing as an evangelical mind because there's no such thing as evangelical.
It means different things to different people.
So for some people, evangelical means emphasis on the cross, biblical authority, personal conversion, activism, which is expressed through evangelism.
But today, most people in the deconstruction movement, if you say evangelical, all they see is like a MAGA hat and a gun locker, right?
So it's like these are the inside of your house.
An American flag in the church.
Yes.
Exactly.
And so they're maybe leaving this, but what happens virtually every time, especially in the deconstruction hashtag, is they're also leaving these other things, the cross, because it's about authority.
So they see this as an abuse of authority.
So they're leaving any sort of exclusive doctrine as well.
So anything that would tell you you're a sinner or that Jesus is the only way or that there's a place called hell and people are going to go there.
Those kinds of things in the minds of the deconstructionists are just doctrines that the church invented to control people with fear.
So you could have some maybe legitimate objections mixed in together with anything that is sort of smacking as authoritarian or exclusive.
So it just all gets kind of bundled up in the same ball and thrown out.
So then it's like you need to follow your own path and God would never be mean and send people to hell.
So obviously we have to redefine these doctrines.
And so even the ones that still call themselves Christian, largely speaking, are throwing out core gospel doctrines along with their, you know, their parents' MAGA hat.
That's right.
So we're throwing out substitutionary atonement with Donald Trump.
Yes.
And somehow equating those two things.
Where did he?
I've done more for Christianity than any person.
Come on, Ellie.
I have wounded people.
No, no, but it's interesting, though, because you look at these folks and a lot of times it is from a wounding.
It's from some kind of personal experience.
And then they end up having to sort of, they just throw everything out, the baby out with the bathwater.
So how do you deal with someone now that is wounded, that comes to you and has been under sort of an authoritarian structure and is thinking about deconstructing?
Or maybe they're even far along the process.
Like, how do you, how would you deal with them?
Well, in our book, we have a whole chapter called advice where we kind of paint these different types of scenarios because deconstruction is so different for every person.
There's no one story that's the same.
And then the relationships are all different.
So it might be that somebody has a spouse who's deconstructing and how you're going to talk to your spouse is going to be different than maybe an adult who has a minor child who's maybe 15 or 16.
That's going to be a different interaction than maybe a parent of an adult child who's already moved out and living on their own.
And so we sort of advise everybody to do a bit of triage.
And I think the knee-jerk reaction for a lot of Christians is to go have a coffee date and try to fix their theology over coffee, you know?
And we basically say, that's not the right approach.
It was sushi for me.
Was it sushi?
Did it work?
Maybe it didn't work.
Maybe it's butterbeer.
We just need to do the butterbeer.
It was sushi and H ⁇ M. That's how it happened.
Anyway, yeah.
So what we say in the book is assess the relationship first because a lot of times person in deconstruction is not going to tell you they're in deconstruction because the impetus to disconnect from what they deem toxic theology is so strong that if you have like an adult child who's in deconstruction, they probably have, are not telling you till they're really down the road.
If they even tell you at all, you might even get a no contact letter where they say, basically, you are a toxic person.
You're harmful.
We have to separate.
This is very, very common.
I meet people night after night who have experienced this.
And so in that case, we kind of say, okay, crisis mode, what's the most important thing?
Probably in the beginning is just to stay in their life.
So maybe pull back a little bit on trying to fix the theology and trying to talk about it, but just show them love.
Try to keep the doors of communication and relationship open.
And if you can do that and maybe move into a phase where there is a welcome conversation, just bear in mind that this didn't happen overnight.
And without a miracle, it probably won't be fixed overnight.
So I think in situations, especially where there's been legitimate abuse, acknowledge that.
Even weep with those who weep, cry with those who cry.
I think with the rise of the, you know, the seeker-sensitive movement, the mega churches, we see a lot of that.
And I think it's legitimate.
And so maybe just validating where there has been real abuse.
But the difficult thing with the abuse conversation is that you also have people who feel abused because they were told they were sinners or that there's some sort of a moral standard that we have to live up to.
And then they feel abused by that.
So all of it is just so conflated.
So it's going to require a lot of wisdom, a lot of prayer, a lot of patience.
Yeah, you often don't get to have these conversations early on in their process either.
Right.
Like they're already so far down the road by the time they even let you know this is happening that you are sort of put on the back.
You're put on your heels and you don't really know what to do.
So I think that's a really good advice to just kind of stay in relationship.
I think I haven't done a very good job of that in the past in different relationships that I've had.
Should I fight with them on Facebook and Twitter?
Yeah, absolutely.
That's so effective.
If you just go on there and tell them how wrong they are and put a Bible verse on there, they'll sure, you know, they'll be like, you know what?
I see the error of my ways.
I love it.
Just start talking about pro-life and everybody will be fixed.
Yeah.
The whole world will be fixed.
It's hard when I do see a lot of people deconstructing or, you know, they'll change their Facebook profile picture to some pro-life.
thing and they're Christian or they were Christian.
Pro-choice.
And it's like, I'm not, I don't live there anymore or I'm never going to see you in person.
And now I'm just going to DM you something that sounds very judgy.
You know, it's just, it's, it's difficult, you know?
It is hard.
I think social media in some ways has been good, but it also makes things like this more difficult because people are so brave when they're behind their keyboards and there can be so many misunderstandings.
And even if someone's trying to communicate something in a friendly way, it's hard sometimes to discern tone on text.
So it can be received wrongly.
Just put emoji after everyone.
Happy face.
Happy face.
Maybe you shouldn't be reading palms anymore.
Happy face.
Maybe that's not aggressive.
You're such a passive aggressive person.
Your pastor says that's okay.
That was an actual conversation that I had with someone where she was like, she's a someone I went to youth group with as a kid.
And now she's reading palms and doing like the tarot cards.
And her pastor affirms that and says that she has a gift and she should use all those gifts for Christianity.
It's like, you have a gift that is absolutely popularity in some streams too.
It's a gift that's associated with like demonic, you know, pagan things.
Like even if it's true, I don't think that gift is coming from God.
If you're a necromancer, use it for the Lord.
Raising people from the dead to speak to the Lord.
It's very dark.
Yeah.
Yeah, but there are Christians trying to redeem that stuff saying, you know, we can use tarot cards for, or, you know, not exactly tarot cards, but a different type of thing.
And it's rebranded tarot cards.
Because they probably went to Hogwarts.
It's the evil in Harry Potter.
Yeah.
That's the result.
That's right.
They want to horrify.
But they're allowed to watch Lord of the Rings, even though it still has magic and wizards.
It's different.
Okay.
It's different, Emma.
I know.
Okay.
So what's the plan for this book you guys are going to release in January?
So it's coming out late January.
And I think our hope is just to give the church a resource that will really help.
Because really where this was inspired for me was when I go speak and I do conferences night after night, I would have these elderly couples come up to me with tears in their eyes saying, I'm not allowed to see my grandkids because they tell me I'm toxic.
I don't even know what happened.
I don't understand.
My child won't talk to me now.
We can't see our grandkids.
And so I really wanted to help them understand because a lot of people think, oh, when people are deconstructing, they're just wanting to know what's true.
They're wanting to evaluate their beliefs.
And maybe if their parents had some wonky theology, they're going to fix that and start living more authentically Christian.
And a lot of people will say that.
But it's really based on this idea that Christian doctrine is toxic and unhealthy and harmful.
And so and the thing too that people need to understand is this is largely a phenomenon happening online.
So people, even if you have like a 17, 18 year old in your home, they might be going to church with you and going through the motions, but if they're on social media in this hashtag, I mean, it is like the most propaganda, brainwashing sphere I've ever seen.
I mean, Tim and I have talked through like so many of these TikTok videos where somebody will claim, you know, what does an abuser do?
Well, an abuser tells you that you're nothing or that you are broken and that you need them to be made whole.
Well, what is the church doing?
That's what the church is doing.
And it'll have like a million views and hundreds of thousands of likes.
And you're just thinking people are not thinking this through all the way.
And that's just one of many, many, many videos that are demonstrably false.
Even some of the factual claims that are made in these 20-second videos are demonstrably false.
But nobody cares because it's all in this hashtag.
And people, it's what they're wanting to hear.
They're wanting to be able to have a reason to reject.
penal substitutionary atonement.
They're wanting a reason to reject the idea that I'm inherently sinful.
And so when they have this TikToker that has a 20-second little blurb giving you permission to do that, it's just, it's wildly popular.
Well, and you're looking for, you're looking for a way around, most of the time, it's about hedonism or pleasure.
And so it comes down to what Aldous Huxley talked about, where he said, well, I gave up my theology so I could sleep with whoever I wanted to sleep with.
And it's like, at least you're honest about it, brother.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what it, so speaking, so kind of switching gears and applying this to a real world situation, the current thing that's going on at North Point Church with Andy Stanley.
And I know you got to handle it kind of with kid gloves because you don't really, you can't, you can't say for certain where Andy Stanley lands because he talks out of both sides of his mouth.
So his actions say one thing, his words say another thing.
And he's been doing this for years.
So I'm kind of, I'm very suspicious.
Can I be aggressive about it?
Please.
No, I want you to be because I feel like we need more of that.
I feel a little aggressive about this one.
I'm kind of pissed.
Well, for a long time, I defended Andy Stanley.
Right.
Because I always want to give people a long rope if they have a history of biblical faithfulness.
And I was mentored by Norm Geisler.
It's hard.
Everybody's brains are exploding going, how could this be happening?
But I'm just telling you, I wrote my book, Another Gospel, about a church where this happened.
And I have seen it.
It's not just the one time.
I've seen this happen time and again.
And it's always the person you don't think it's going to be.
You always think, oh, no, they got to believe like me.
There's no way they could be this far down the road.
And they start talking out both sides of their mouth.
And then their actions start catching up with, you know, the non-biblical side.
And that's exactly what we're seeing with Andy Stanley.
And I would be absolutely flummoxed if he's not fully openly affirming within five years, inside of five years.
This is exactly what happens time and time again.
And I think it's my opinion, you know, of course, if anybody's unfamiliar, this conference that North Point just hosted that Andy Stanley spoke about.
unconditional the unconditional conference where you had i'm not familiar with it well Well, you had openly gay speakers who are married to partners of the same sex.
And the conference was for parents of LGBTQ plus kids.
And it was marketed like, hey, we're not going to do any theological conclusions.
We just want this to be kind of a safe middle space.
Well, there is no safe middle space because it's like cancer.
Think about if you go to the hospital and the doctor says, well, we don't want to, you know, you might have cancer.
You might not.
We're not going to quibble over that.
We're just going to try to figure out a way to comfort you through this process of this thing you're going through.
Well, if you don't call it cancer, then you don't know to treat it.
You don't know, okay, this is something that's eroding your body.
We need to come together to figure out how to fix your body.
So that's kind of what this is.
We're not going to call it a sin.
We're not going to say, you know, wherever you land theologically is fine.
Well, how do you help parents of LGBTQ kids if you're not going to fall on whether or not it's good for them or negative for them?
Even that, like I, it makes me so furious when they say like trans kids or gay kids.
It's like, why are you even making it even a category?
It's a sexual being, like leave the kids out of it.
You know, there's, they're just, they're young.
You're like, you're not allowed to be a tomboy anymore or you're going to be put on hormones and it's going to ruin your body and it's going to ruin your life.
It's so dangerous.
Like the fact that people are saying that there's LGBTQ kids.
Right.
Like they're just kids.
Yes.
They're not, don't even put them in that category.
That's right.
Because kids can be confused.
And of course, statistically, we know, especially with the rapid onset trans thing, that I can't remember the percentage, but it's like over 70% grow out of it by the time they're 17 or 18.
So I totally agree with you.
Mostly to not affirm the category.
Even just to affirm the category for kids is crazy to me.
But with this conference, I think for me, this is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
This is when you say mark and avoid.
Because they're like, think about Jesus' letters in Revelation.
You can tell this gets me worked up.
But think about Jesus' letters.
I told you I was a little bit of a dad.
100% with you on this.
No, no.
But think about Jesus' letters.
His letter to, I believe it was Thyotyra, where he says you tolerate that woman, Jezebel, who was leading people into sexual sin, even for the tolerating of it.
And so he says, I'll lay a bed for you in the flames as a result, right?
That's right.
Yeah.
This is meek and mild Jesus.
That's not what he's never be mean.
He's not nice.
Yeah.
He's mad about it.
I think that's what we're seeing.
With a conference like this, there is a unity with heresy.
So it doesn't even matter to me what Andy Stanley personally affirms.
With his actions, he is leading people to sin, which is the definition of wolf that Jesus gave.
You'll recognize them by their fruit.
Well, that's the fruit of obedience or the fruit of disobedience.
That's right.
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I'm 100% with you on Andy.
I think this is, I've watched this for the past 15 years.
And I used to go to Catalyst and stuff with all of our church leadership and I'd watch him and he was always such a great leadership guru.
And so everyone, he was very charismatic.
But then when he came out with Unhitched or Unhitched, that was the book, I was like, done.
And I remember all, I was, I was already done because I was like, you're a Pelagian.
But then, but then all of my, you know, people that I knew that were friends like, no, I need to get one thing.
And I'm like, no, dude, he's making room for LGBTQ.
Yeah.
And I was telling her, they're like, no, they're like, it's not possible.
It's not possible.
But I think the big issue that I have with it is not that he's not affirming or that he's affirming or whatever.
It's that he's separating.
I mean, obviously that matters, but he's separating our practice from our belief.
That's right.
And that is not something you can separate.
Right.
And so I don't know.
Almost acting like it's impossible or mean or oppressive to follow God's command.
Right.
Oh, I've got a friend who wants to be married and he's gay.
And how could that possibly?
That was the end of his speech.
That was the end of his speech.
I'm going to call it a speech now on Sunday morning after the conference was like, no, no, we affirm all these things, all these biblical things.
We always have 28 years.
And then the very end of the whole thing, he says, but I've got a friend.
So he's appealing to the emotions and he's like, he'll never be able to be married.
He'll never be able to have kids.
He'll never be able to have a family.
And it's like, well, is that the promise?
Like, is that the promise that Jesus gives us?
Yeah.
Your life ends here.
Yeah.
Is singlehood a problem?
Like, to be celibate for the rest of your life?
It's such a curse.
Yeah.
I mean, it's like, what God do you serve?
How powerful do you think he is?
Is happiness the thing?
Right.
Right.
And also just assuming that it's fixed, like that God can't change anyone, that God can't open someone's heart to a different option or biblical marriage in many cases.
You know, I have friends who struggle with these kinds of desires and they're open.
They say, you know, if the Lord provides a way for biblical marriage for me, I'm open.
And instead of seeing it as this curse of, you know, you'll be alone forever, that's capitulating to the world's ideas of identity.
Yeah.
And happiness.
Paul said about like try to stay single so you can serve the Lord because if you're going to get married, you're going to serve your spouse.
You know, it's, I think there is a, we should definitely make more of a room to be single in the church.
But being gay cannot be your identity.
You know, you're like being a Republican or being conservative shouldn't be your identity.
Yeah.
It's like so easy.
Yeah.
Being white is my identity.
Castrols, cancer.
Casseroles.
I don't know.
Country spices.
Humpkins by the way.
Backwards trucker hats.
Sounds pretty great, but yeah, I mean, it's like the whole the world is just pulling everyone to have conflicting identities.
Like, well, that's, I think that he's, he's, I think Andy Stanley in particular is making the same mistake that everyone else is making in terms of what is happiness?
What is this world designed for?
You know, what does God require of us?
These are the questions, right?
What is biblical authority?
Like, where does theology play into our lives?
How does biblical authority apply to our praxis?
And it's like, to me, this is where, yeah, I agree with you.
I think he's at that point where it's like, I'm so sorry, Andy, you're out now.
Yeah.
I mean, I pray for his repentance.
He needs to repent.
Glorious if he did that.
And, you know, it's not like I'm hoping, I hate having to say things like that, but I pray that he would repent.
And that would bring so many people, I think, with him.
And that would be glorious.
So I pray to that end.
But in the meantime, like, you have to warn people because I've just seen this happen so many times.
Yeah.
And if it's the other way, if he had had those folks that like Justin Lee that came in to represent the supposedly biblical approach to monogamous gay relationships, and he also had like a Sam Asbury come in and say, no, this is Alberry.
This is the other one.
This is the other perspective on that.
If that was the conference, that would even be something where you'd be like, well, maybe, you know, like maybe we can still do that.
Yeah, like if it was framed like a debate or something.
Yeah, let's a debate.
Let's have a conversation.
Right.
There's disagreement here.
Instead of just bringing all affirming people in all the books we're affirming.
So I'm frustrated by that because it looks like Andy Stanley and by, you know, just by association, his entire church is going to be deconstructing together.
So that's crazy.
And so what kind of advice would you give to them, to those people in North Point?
Well, my advice is probably would not be well received because I would say run.
Find a biblically faithful church right now.
And, you know, a lot of people hang on because they're like, well, I got to confront and maybe see if I can bring change.
But so many people at this point, especially with that church, if you have a smaller church where you feel like you could have some influence and you could maybe talk to your pastor, do that for sure.
But he's been confronted so many times, publicly, privately, by so many people.
And he is very clear in his direction.
So my advice to anybody that is still there is run as fast as you can.
Take as many people as you can with you.
Find a biblically faithful church because this stuff is so slippery and it's so deceptive.
all of us could be vulnerable to this type of deception, especially when it's a leader we love, especially when we have relationship.
I think that can be, that can cause so much confusion because you just think, well, he would never, he would never be this way.
And that's what I thought about my pastor that I wrote another gospel about.
Well, he would never go into this kind of stuff.
No, there's no way we're totally on the same page.
And that kept me there way longer than I should have been.
Yeah, it's like a gaslighting situation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You stay longer than you should.
Well, that's interesting.
I think that we, I agree.
I think that running is the best thing.
I think undermining anything that he's doing is a good thing.
I mean, don't hold them responsible for my opinions, everyone.
But we're responsible.
You should run.
Yeah.
Run every time you see this.
I don't know.
And the problem I have with Andy too is that he will sort of apologize and then he will double down in his actions.
Yes, that's exactly it.
He'll feel it.
It's very deceptive.
It's like to make you feel calm about it.
It's very deceptive.
Yeah.
And this is how this thing works.
The person, I won't even say Andy, but just, you know, I've seen this happen so many times where they're so good with language and communication that they can calm you down.
You're like, wait a minute, red flag, red flag.
And they're like, oh no, no, no, no, it's okay because of this.
It's okay.
Trust me.
It's all fine.
And then it just keeps sliding until it just goes totally off the cliff.
That's right.
And it's just, it's the way it works.
Yeah, that's the way it works.
It's really sad.
He's pretty confident in his views.
So back in a couple of years ago, I used to listen to Stephen Furdick because I was listening to one of your podcasts and he's very like uplifting and you get motivated.
And then I started.
He's got tight pants, right?
He's needed the, he's got the tight pants.
Yeah.
And the tight elevation is it?
I think it's elevation.
And do you like that?
And then I started noticing he said something in a sermon and I thought it was so cool.
And then I started telling other people about it and trying to look it up online and I couldn't find it anywhere.
I think he just made it up.
And it was like this moment where I'm like, okay, well, how much of it has he been making up?
Because he would make these connections that just seemed like a huge jump.
And then I joined a Facebook group called What the Furdick where I would start like evaluating people like, you know, Osteen or Furdick and things like that.
And then I got kicked out of that group and now I'm in exiles of what the Furtic.
Now why did you get kicked out?
I don't know.
It got kind of crazy.
And there were like people who joined who really liked Stephen Verdick.
So you'd have like defenders and then it got really aggressive and very feisty.
And then there's exiles of exiles of what the verdict.
Oh goodness.
It's like, there definitely aren't good pastors out there.
I don't remember how I was going to lead this into a question.
I just thought I would.
But that was fascinating.
That is interesting.
I like the exiles of the exiles of what the verdict.
Some people were aggressive.
They were so aggressive.
You couldn't post anything.
You couldn't ask like, can women be pastors who just get like ripped apart?
Of course not.
I don't know what Furdick would say.
I don't know.
Well, the What the Furdick group would say yes.
And then Exiles of What the Verdik was more no, you cannot.
That was a big, that was a big debate between Exiles and What the Furdik and the What the Verdict.
That's a wow.
Maybe people need, you know, the internet just isn't this place of only deconstruction, but I think there's a lot of people who are thirsty for like books like yours.
You know, the, you know, how what, how can I understand deconstruction?
Should I not try to use it in my own life as a good thing?
And yeah, we do that a lot in Christianity.
Totally.
So what do you think about, let me ask you this.
This is in the same vein.
Why is it always the CCM artists?
Oh, don't get me sad.
I know.
I want to.
You're uniquely positioned to answer this question.
So I think what a lot of people don't understand about the CCM industry is that it's fairly young.
So it, you know, really started in the maybe 60s, late 60s, and it sort of saw its heyday around the time when I was in it.
I mean, that's when it was, I think, at its peak.
This was right before iTunes and all of the, remember Napster?
Yeah, that just killed the industry.
So they had all these big budgets.
But what was happening from about the 90s until, you know, through that period of getting through that streaming becoming a reality was that all of the Christian labels, at least I think all of them, there might be some that aren't, but the major ones got bought by secular companies like in New York.
So when I first signed with, we signed with Sparrow Records.
That was a Christian record label.
By the time Zoe Girl was done, we had gone through being bought by EMI.
And then at some point they got bought by Capital.
So when I get a royalty check, you know, that's like 37 cents, I will tell you.
It's massive, you know, glamorous.
Oh, I know.
It comes from capital.
It comes from capital.
So all of my experience in the industry in that heyday was that, I mean, you had a lot of really good people in the industry and still are.
I know people still that I communicate with.
They love the Lord.
They're trying to do good.
So I'm not saying like every single person that works in CCM is nefarious or evil, but a lot of people are really motivated by money.
And so like back all of the motivations for what songs they wanted us to write, what types of style they wanted us to do, what type, even lyrically what they wanted us to do, all was what would trend to make the most money.
And so there was no accountability as far as like, how's your spiritual life?
Or, you know, we want to make sure that you guys are okay.
It was, it was just like you're a commodity when you're an artist.
And so there's no foresight into even like, are you even a Christian?
I don't think anybody even ever asked me that, right?
It was just sort of like, this is the industry.
So I think what's going on is you have a lot of kids who maybe grew up in church.
They grew up in youth group, like music, formed a band, they get a deal.
And it might be that they've never even trusted in Jesus as their personal savior.
And so they know the Christian lingo really well.
They know the Christian industry really well.
They know what Christians want to hear.
And they can do that.
And they might even be totally sincere, but not realize like that they're not even Christians.
And so I think when COVID happened and all of these, because we saw just a flood of deconstruction stories out of CCM and in COVID.
I think they were all, you know, they had time to think.
They're not on the road anymore.
And their money is not coming in as much because you don't, let's just face it, you don't really make money from record sales.
You have to tour or you have to write.
You have to sell merch.
That's just, you don't make any money from selling records.
The labels make all of that.
So their money stream is cut off.
And I think for the first time, maybe they were able to sit down and reflect and really honestly evaluate, am I even a Christian?
Do I even believe this?
Even though they're writing these anthems because they know how to do that.
And I'm not saying they would do it nefariously, but it was just sort of they were on the, they were in the machine and it is a machine.
And it's very persuasive.
You know, I just remember so desperately in our first photo shoot and wanting it not to be cheesy.
And because we were a girl group, girl pop group when the spice when the spice girls were really popular.
Oh, yeah.
So I was just like, oh, please, God, I just don't want to do anything cheesy in this first photo shoot.
And so they had a set on this scene and they were like, can you guys throw popcorn at each other?
And I was like, I really don't want to.
Yeah, kind of like a little popcorn painting each other's toenails.
And I was like, I really, please don't make us do that.
I really don't.
I just think that's so cheesy.
And they were.
I would rather read a book.
Can we just be reading books?
And they were like, we promise this will never see the light of day.
We just want to get the shot.
I'm not 25.
I'm like, okay.
They're just a popcorn and everything else.
And it's like on the back cover of the CD, or I think, but it was definitely in a magazine for sure.
And so you kind of go along with it because you want to be that Christian cooperative.
I'll do it.
Sure.
Yeah.
Sure, buddy.
Yeah, totally.
And even songs that we like, we're sort of embarrassed to admit.
But we had this song.
I can't even open my eyes.
See, I'm just like, you're turning red.
I don't know why you're turning red.
Well, we had this song called, because I realize now how cheesy what we wanted to do was, but it was called Dismissed.
And we wrote it like at the devil.
Like, you've been dismissed.
Like, you know, I'm never going to.
And so I just remember that.
The corporate room has dismissed you.
Yeah.
Well, the corporate side was like, we have to, we really want this song to be about a boy.
And so we, and, and I was like, but like, we really felt like this was like spiritual warfare.
I was young.
I was young.
And it was, it was the late 90s.
I mean, that was like, there was a lot of cheese in that time.
But at any rate, they talked us into like watering down the lyrics to make it just like it could be about, you know, that or a boy.
Yeah.
And they said, if you will do this, we promise it will go to radio.
We'll send it secular radio even.
And so I thought, okay, well, maybe this one compromise would be worth getting the gospel message out into the secular world.
Well, they never did that.
Yeah.
They never did that.
So we were left with this weird like hybrid song.
It's like dismissing a boy and the devil.
And the devil.
Which is the same thing, girls.
It's the same thing.
When you're dismissing a boy, it definitely feels like that.
Yes.
And like, you know, dismissing them from coming on too strong.
You've been dismissed.
Through love weights, all that stuff is like really, really popular.
Man.
I don't know why.
I think that's so funny.
I just like the word dismissed.
I think it's, it's really great.
It's so very sassy.
It's sassy, but it's very feminine.
It's like, when I visited Biola, we were on the ride from the airport.
The people who had picked us up from the school were playing like Christian music popular at the time.
And they said, they like turned to us and back and they're like, you know what?
If you just take God and you switch it with your boyfriend's name, you can sing this about your boyfriend.
And I was like, I'm pretty sure that's heresy.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's a good note.
That's not a good thing.
And then what kind of song are you writing that you could easily just switch it out and make it this like?
Well, that's because that's what was popular on radio.
Because radio was all geared toward this hypothetical person named Becky.
Do you guys know about Becky?
No, tell me more.
So Becky is a soccer mom in a mini.
I don't have no idea if it works this way anymore now, but when I was when it was in the heyday, so all of your, you know, radio is what sold your record back then.
So you had to write a song that Becky would play in her minivan.
And so it had to be something that would appeal to like a 30-something mom who's driving around a lot because she's the one who's got the Christian radio on.
And so that I think that's honestly why so many of those songs were like that, because they were kind of non-confrontational.
They were more feminine, kind of appealing to that Jesus is my boyfriend mentality because that's what they thought Becky wanted, which Becky would play.
And so I think that's honestly why so many of those songs got written because anything that wasn't right in that vein, they would tweak to make it in that vein or go back to the drawing board so that Becky will play it in.
Well, it seemed like every song they were trying to write with had to be a crossover song.
So like everything was like, we got to appeal to both audiences.
Yeah, because Christians will hear it this way.
Because like two people in all history had success doing it.
That's right.
They will just, yeah, that's right.
Like Amy Grant didn't.
Amy Grant and like Toby.
Baby Jesus.
Yeah.
Was that about Jesus or was that about a boy?
I can't remember.
There was an orange.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
That'd be a great sketch where we just like take, you know, we start off as like this theological strong song and then the records are like, no.
Can you make it like about going on a date with Jesus?
Yeah, can you make it?
You go out to coffee with Jesus.
That's right.
Yeah.
You see Deconstruction.
You saw a movie with Jesus.
Manifestation.
No, that's incredible.
Oh, my gosh.
I love that story because I love it.
And I was, you know, I was listening to all that stuff.
Yeah.
But you look at DC Talk and all the cheesiness.
You were Becky.
I was Becky.
You were Becky.
Well, you were probably, you know, yeah, you were in the van with Becky, so you'd be hearing it.
I was.
Yeah, Becky was driving.
But honestly, I think that's why Jesus Freak was such an anomaly.
Because I don't know if you know the story behind that, but if I'm remembering it correctly, the label had won it.
DC Talk had had, they'd been on the Arsenio Hall show.
They had all this success.
And they said, well, we want you to kind of do something like more like that that's non-offensive, not really like too Jesus-y.
And Toby went home and wrote Jesus Freak.
I love that.
I was like, that is an awesome story.
Oh my gosh, I love that obstinance.
That makes me so happy.
Oh, yeah, I'll give you a little watered down Becky song, Jesus Freak.
I love that.
Okay, so I have a little bit of that in myself.
I'm a worship pastor.
And at our church last week, I'm not sure if I should tell this story, but at our church, the guest speaker had this Andy Stanley book that he was reading before he went out on the stage, and it just lit a fire in me.
And it was the one where Andy said, don't if you're sidelining the church.
Yeah, that was the one.
And the whole message was kind of geared at that.
So it was like, if you, what is it, taking side sidelines the church, which is another thing a progressive deconstructionist would say.
Oh, absolutely.
And I, so they're like, well, I was like, dude, I can't believe I told my pastor.
I'm like, he's got this flipping Andy Stanley book.
I'm like, what do we do?
What do we do?
And so anyway, all this to say, somebody came up to me on the way up and we're doing Amazing Grace because it's the 250th anniversary this year.
And so I was like, they're like, say something about Amazing Grace.
So I get up there and I'm like, this song's about a person who did, who took a side.
And we're still singing it today.
And there's no slavery because of it.
Maybe we should take sides.
Yeah, maybe we should take sides.
Maybe we should take sides.
Yeah.
Yes.
I wish I could have been.
I kind of undercut the guest speaker.
Sometimes you have to.
Well, yeah, it's interesting because I love this guy.
I love the guest speaker, but that whole kind of living and like threading the needle between two opposing political views and saying somehow that taking a side sidelines the church.
I'm like, the church is sidelined.
Like the church is.
Well, because the culture is always deciding what becomes political anyway.
Like topics that are abortion hasn't always been political.
It's just because it came into legislation.
Now people, we don't want to talk about it because it's political.
Well, I don't care if they call it political or not.
This is a moral issue.
And yeah, I think the idea of the church not taking sides on things like the enemy is just like, I love that.
That's great.
Yeah, he's very excited about that.
I'll have another North Point.
Well, listen, I think we are kind of getting close to the end here, unfortunately, because I'm having a great time.
This is awesome.
It's so fun to have you, man.
You got to come back again.
I think it's going to be awesome.
Awesome to have you.
And it's so good.
And we watch your podcast.
My wife and I watch your podcast all the time.
We love it.
It's very encouraging, I think, to people out there.
If you haven't checked out Alisa Children's podcast and what she does, the work she does with defending the faith against progressive Christianity and other heresies, it's very, very important in the culture right now.
So I love what you're doing.
And I think it's absolutely amazing.
We're humongous fans.
But before we go, we have 10 questions that we would like to ask you.
And it's new ones.
I think you answered the other 10 questions.
Yeah, well, I wouldn't remember my answers even if they were the same.
So I might have changed since then.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's funny.
It was only like six months ago.
The 10 questions.
All right.
So here are our new 10 questions.
So rapid fire, 10 questions.
Rapid fire.
Do you want to, yeah, you want to start?
Sure.
Have you ever been to Sizzler?
Oh, of course.
What do you think about Sizzler?
I haven't been since I was a kid, but I liked it.
It was always like special.
You get to go, like, all you can eat.
Yeah.
True story.
I know this is rapid fire.
My dad went to Sizzler with Bob Dylan in the 80s.
No way.
No.
Best Sizzler.
That is the best Sizzler fact we've had in a long time.
Yes.
They're obsessed with it.
That is a true story.
We did a whole, if you watch our videos, you need to watch our videos.
We did, Brandon put it together.
It's brilliant.
It's the choir song from the 90s that Sizzler put out about America.
I don't know if you remember this.
Sizzler is the one that gives us choices.
Just when like We Are the World was popular and everybody was doing the biggest thing.
And it was like a kid playing baseball.
It was a commercial for Sizzler that we redid.
And we redid the whole thing.
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
Like Chopper's Josh.
I love it.
Anyway.
Star Wars or Star Trek?
Star Wars.
Do you want to win the war on terror?
Yes or no?
Yes.
That was the dumbest question.
Personally, just by myself.
Can you just saddle up and go out there?
I feel like that was on your horse.
I don't know, saddling up.
Yeah, it's like a ride in.
Did dinosaurs have feathers?
No.
Well, some did, maybe.
Pterodactyls?
I don't know.
When were the dinosaurs around?
Oh, you're mean to ask me that.
I do not take a position on that.
I don't know.
Yeah, that's one of those.
I know.
What's your favorite fast food cheeseburger?
Five guys.
Oh, no.
Well, yeah, five guys.
Yeah, it tastes kind of like backyard barbecue.
It's really good.
It does.
I like it.
Okay.
I love this question.
Was the 2020 election rig?
I don't take a position on the age of the earth, so please don't ask me about dinosaurs.
You're not Ultra Mega.
No.
Okay.
No.
You can hang out with any three people, living or dead.
Who would you pick?
At the same time?
Sure.
Yeah.
Augustine, Bob Dylan, and Jesus.
I love that.
That was quick.
And I thought about it before.
Not your daughter.
If you can't pick Jesus, who would you?
Because I get to hang out with her all the time.
If I couldn't pick Jesus.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Maybe Bob Dylan, Augustine, and Aristotle.
Oh, Aristotle.
They skipped right over Paul.
That's okay.
Yeah.
I'm offended for Paul.
No, let's see.
One concert, any band in history.
And who would you go see?
And it can't be Zoe Girl.
It can't be Zoe Girl.
Dad, come.
Oh, that'd be fun to go see your sister.
Well, I think that, oh, gosh, that's a tough one.
But they have to be alive still, right?
No.
Oh, no.
Any band in history.
Oh, any band in history.
It'll be Mozart playing Baroque music.
Oh, gosh.
I wish I had more time to think about that.
I think I probably would love to have seen the Beatles.
Yeah.
You know, just, yeah.
For sure.
You have been appointed to Supreme Court.
What do you ban?
Where they ban things.
Can you just, you could just like ban stuff?
Yeah.
That's what they do.
I guess if you're on this version of the Supreme Court.
Well, I think I would start with abortion.
Yeah.
Just, yeah.
That's a good one.
That's a good answer.
I think I'd do that too.
Who is Jesus?
Jesus is the son of God, savior of the world, my savior.
Yep.
Yeah.
I think that's the right answer.
Wow.
Alisa Childers, thank you so much for being with us.
It's been such a pleasure having you here in the studio in this undisclosed location.
And if you guys check out her new book, Deconstructing Christianity.
The Deconstruction of Christianity.
And it's already up for pre-order.
It's up for pre-order.
Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett together.
Red Pent Logic guy.
Very, very cool.
He's bald as well.
Wears hats.
But he's really good.
So, anyway, go check that out.
And her podcast is extremely encouraging.
The amount of the guests that you have on, the yeah, just the subject matter, everything about it.
So, please follow her and yeah, check it out, become a supporter and subscribe to the Babylon B. If you're not already a subscriber, please subscribe and get access to all kinds of content.
We got fun stuff coming up, so you're gonna want to be part of it.