Geologist Dr. Tim Clarey from Institute For Creation Research is at the Babylon Bee to talk about why he thinks rock megasequences are evidence for a global flood 4,300 years ago. He is joined by Mr. Dave Napier, a fellow speaker from ICR, and both young-earth creationists talk about young rocks, dinosaurs having feathers, and whether Russell Crowe was a good or a great Noah. This episode is brought to you by Alliance Defending Freedom. Join today and become a champion for freedom: http://joinadf.com/bee Institute For Creation Research is having a Creation Mega Conference in Phoenix, AZ on October 12-14. The Babylon Bee's Editor-In-Chief Kyle Mann will be there! There is still time to register and go!: https://www.icr.org/event/2241/
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And now it's time for another interview on the Babylon B podcast.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the interview show.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
I'm Jarrett.
This is Travis.
And with us today are a couple of awesome guys from the Institute for Creation Research.
This is Dave and Tim.
And you guys are here to talk to us about a few things, mega sequences.
You got a conference coming up.
Very excited to hear about it.
So Dave Napier is you.
Yes.
Okay, Dave Napier.
Yeah.
I knew that already.
And you are going to talk about the conference coming up and Dr. Clary, Tim Clary.
Correct.
All right.
All right.
Well, thank you guys so much for being on the show.
All right.
So first question is for Dave.
Tell us everything about mega sequences.
I mean, I do talk on it, but you've got the real guy here to talk about.
I'm sorry.
Dr. Tim, what exactly are mega sequences?
Well, they're actually large, what we call large packages of sediments.
So you kind of can lump them all together.
Instead of using names like Jurassic and Cretaceous, these are another way to look at how sediments were deposited.
And so there appears to be, whether you're an evolutionist or a creationist like we are, there's six major sort of flooding events that took place.
But we think it's all part of the same flood.
They just, you know, these happen sequentially right after another.
Whereas the evolutionary story is these mega sequences are these depositional, you know, almost chapters of the rock record.
You can look at it that way.
Bigger, bigger packages took place over millions of years.
So mega sequences is a way of looking at the sedimentary layers in the new light, essentially.
Right.
It's kind of a new way.
It started in the 60s, really, really started becoming popular in the 70s and 80s with oil companies.
I used to work for Chevron.
And so we were using these sequences, we called them, but now the language has kind of gotten out of control.
So most people are now calling what used to be called sequences mega sequences because there's all these little para-sequences and different things.
And so the language got a little crazy.
So we just, there's really six of these.
Sega makes everything better, though.
Yeah, it makes it big.
But it really is.
This is the biggest sequences that took place.
Mega blocks.
Yeah.
Are there also ultra sequences?
No, well, there may be in the future.
They may change these again and make them bigger.
But these are really what these are.
These are the ultra or mega sequences that really, you know, the evolutionists believe these are, you know, legitimate flooding events.
We believe they're legitimate flood events.
We just think this is all part of the flood.
Because in my research, what I'm seeing is there's a progressive nature to these.
So just like the flood was progressive, it started out flooding minimal areas of the continents.
And to date, I've gotten through in the last 10 years, plotting up oil well data across five continents and working on the sixth one, which is Australia.
And those other five continents all show the same pattern of rocks.
They all show a progressive flooding early and then more and more and more.
And they all reach kind of a peak at the same time.
And then they all seem to go offshore a lot.
And so to me, that really is showing what their flood did.
What the Bible talks about, the global flood of the days of Noah.
That's exactly what it did.
They eventually hit all around the world at the same time, about the fourth mega sequence in, boom, there's coal.
Boom, there's land animals.
They're mixed with marine animals.
And so it's just like the waves started flooding the land now, and then it went higher.
You got different animals, different plants, different animals, different plants.
And that's kind of, it appears that the pre-flood world was kind of tiered by ecological zones.
Just like if you go up in a volcano in Costa Rica, for example, which I had the chance to do, you get different plants as you go up higher and higher and higher because they live at different elevations.
And it appears that's what the pre-flood world was looking like.
So we're looking at system patterns where you can see this looks like this was probably shallow seas in the pre-flood world.
This was probably lowlands in the pre-flood world.
These are probably uplands in the pre-flood world.
But we didn't have huge mountains, you know, like we see today, the Himalayas and all these mountains all pop up as the water is going down.
Oh, so really in the last mega sequence, that sixth mega sequence, that's when all almost all the world's mountains, about 80% of them, all show up at once.
That's interesting.
So the tectonic plates had to be shifting during the flood.
Right.
And John Baumgartner, who used to work for ICR in the past, and he modeled things in a super sophisticated government computer model and showed that once you start to subduct the conditions that the world would have been, you're going to get a runaway subduction.
He talks about, so you're going to get plates moving not just a couple inches per year, like we see today, you're going to get several yards per second, several miles per hour.
And he's, and none of his math has ever shown to be wrong.
He's came up with these ideas in the 80s.
He's refined them over and over and over.
So subduction, just for the layperson, subduction is the moving of these plates.
Is that what you're talking about?
Well, it's part of it.
Yeah, part you've got to destroy plates.
So part of the ocean crust, particularly ocean lithosphere, technically, but it's ocean seafloor actually goes down into the earth and it's pulled down by gravity.
So if it's cold and dense, it's at the surface and there's a crack that opens up.
And the Bible talks about the valence of the deep cracking open at the start of the flood.
You can get these unstable, cold, and very dense plates to start to sink into the earth.
And as they go in, he modeled after a certain temperature, they're going to just run away and they're going to start moving several miles per hour.
And at the same time, though, if you're destroying crust, you got to make crust.
So there's at the seafloor, these spreading, like the mid-Atlantic ridge today is a remnant of that spreading or you're making new crust.
So the mantle was kind of recycling the old crust and making new crust at the same time.
Once you created a whole new ocean crust that pushed up, because it's very buoyant, it pushes up the water from below, like the bottom of your bathtub coming up.
And so as you made more ocean crust, you flood a little more.
Made more ocean crust, you flood a little more.
And so eventually these waves, tsunami-like waves, are going across.
And that's what we see in the rocks.
The mega sequences reflect exactly what John Brumgarner modeled geophysically, that you get a progressive flood onto the continents.
And that's, to me, it's just like, it all makes sense.
That's what you see.
You know, the rocks show what he kind of modeled.
So it verifies a lot of what he actually said.
Yeah.
So my limited understanding from the, I guess, the evolutionary side is that, okay, we have these layers and we know these layers are older because certain animals are in certain layers.
Are they ever mixed within the other layers?
Well, yes and no.
I mean, there's certain mixing that goes on.
Some animals, you know, some marine animals particularly will be in early sequences and they'll be in later sequences as well.
And a lot of them disappear at a certain point, and they call those extinction events.
But that's really when you're changing ecological zones.
If you change from one environment to another, suddenly you're going to have a big change in what animals and plants live there.
So, really, these extinctions they talk about really aren't really extinctions.
They're more just you changed what you're burying at the time all over the world.
So, it's kind of the floodwaters are rising to different levels to where different animals live.
Correct.
And then those are the different layers that you're talking about.
Yeah, that's what gives you the fossils.
And so, again, the fossils don't really show evolution.
Again, as I mentioned earlier, even the evolutionists, when push comes to show, they don't say, well, we got very few things where we can say, till this thing changed into this.
They say that, but they're completely different animals.
And so they admit that there's really not much evidence in the fossils of evolution taking place.
Right.
And to go back just real quick, for people who may not have heard this before, you have to think about if you have a tsunami out in the middle of the ocean and it comes across, it's springing across sediment and sand and dirt and silt and all this kind of stuff.
What's the first thing that's going to be buried?
It's everything that's on the bottom of the ocean that can't get out of the way.
That's buried.
And then the next thing it's going to bury is all the things that are swimming in the ocean, right?
And then it goes up on the land.
It's going to get all the amphibians and the reptiles and things like that.
Plants as well.
Plants.
And so what you're doing is you're watching that order of the geological column that everybody agrees on, but you're watching it in order of a tsunami coming across the water and onto the land and into the higher levels of land.
What can get away?
What can actually get higher?
And it gets pushed higher because you're making more seafloor and the seafloor is buoyant until it cools.
Eventually it cooled and sank and that's what pulled the water back.
And so most of their flood water probably came from the pre-flood oceans and then returned back to the post-flood oceans just by moving the seafloor up and down.
And it's pretty amazing.
It really does make a lot of sense.
But it's, you know, like Dave said, when these tsunami waves are coming in, they were coming in higher and higher because they're being pushed by the seafloor rising.
So each time there's, and John Braumgutter also modeled how many tsunamis you'd have with this type of real rapid plate movement.
You know, you'd have thousands, you know, every day just coming after the other.
But we do believe in there was like a pre-flood Pangea, a little bit modified Pangea, not quite the same, quite the same.
And so we're trying to follow the rock data to show what's the best matching.
And we're seeing a pretty good Pangea.
So we believe in that.
We just don't believe they're pre-Pangeas.
You know, the evolutionary world believes everything's uniform.
They believe in uniformitarianism, they call it, which means everything's been going on the same forever and ever.
And so they believe there's all these pre-Pangea continents like Rodinia and Luna and all these different things.
You know, I'm not a big fan of those.
I think it looks like there's evidence for one movement and that's it.
And then everything stopped because you ran out of that dense ocean crust, which is kind of the fuel, kind of like the gasoline that ran it.
Once all the ocean crust got hot, it stopped subducting.
You know, you can't push, it doesn't pull back in when it's hot.
Like trying to bring a hot air balloon down goes up.
But eventually it did cool, and that's why the flood took another over half, really over half a year to go back down.
But there's evidence in the oceans of these major draw, you know, water draining off.
In the Gulf of Mexico, for example, there's a huge sand out there that's over 200 miles offshore, and it's over a thousand foot thick.
And they found billions of barrels of oil in it, but it shouldn't even be there.
And they have no evolutionary secular model to explain how that sand got out there that far.
Oh, that's interesting.
My chief geologist at Chervon, we talked at a conference.
I was talking about something with this at a poster session where I could show the evidence.
I could show my data, but I couldn't talk about the global flood.
But I showed my data and he just came by.
He's in his 80s.
He lives out here in California still.
Many, I say, you wouldn't let us even look when I work for you guys beyond 100 miles offshore because you don't believe there's any sand out there.
He goes, No, we were wrong.
You know, management never admitted that when I worked for him.
But, you know, they have no model to get the sand out there other than the runoff of the flood, the massive amount of once you change directions of the water advancing, all of a sudden it starts to go back.
It's going to come back with some force, just like water, you know, heavy rain coming off a parking lot.
And so you get all the sand washed out there, which they're now finding traps for oil.
And then above that is mostly clay because it slowed down after that.
But thousands and thousands of feet of sedimentation that washed off the continents as the mountains are coming up all over the world.
And you can follow these out.
I believe there's other Whopper sands out there.
They call this the Whopper Sand because it's such big sand.
It's no reference to the Burger King.
It's just this, you know, they were just shocked.
They were expecting to find a few feet of sand and lots of clay and a few feet of sand, lots of clay.
But they saw this bright spot on the seismic and said, we got to drill this.
And so there were some brave oil companies, not ours, brave oil companies that went out there and drilled.
They laid us all off and said, you know, the oil prices are too low back in the 90s.
So we all got laid off.
And but because of that, I was able to go back and get a PhD, which I never would have got.
So I think God had a plan all along, even though I was kind of like Jonah, I was fighting it.
You know, I had this desire in the back of my head to, well, I should get a PhD sometime.
And, but I never would, I wouldn't jump off the boat until God pushed me off the boat.
So I went back, got a PhD, and that's one of the reasons why I'm at ICR now.
And I get to get the greatest job in the world, I get to tell people there really is evidence of a global flood.
I mean, these mega sequences are just the kind of the chapters that show it, but they're global.
These things, and I published a book called Carving Stone, and you know, people have read it, evolutionists read it, they're like, well, we like your data, Tim, because it's real.
It's the real oil well data all around the world in every major basin, every country, et cetera.
But they don't like my interpretation.
But they don't offer a different one other than the standard story.
Right.
So where do fossil fuels actually come from?
Isn't that carbon-based life?
Yeah.
So, well, I think all the oil, pretty much all the oil is from the flood.
I mean, God buried all these marine algae.
Most oil comes from marine algae and plankton.
And they can find in these shales, these dark shales, and they fingerprinted the oil companies that fingerprinted to the oil they produced to the rocks.
And they're going into these shales now and they're fracking, which, you know, people are saying is a bad thing, but fracking is not bad.
We've been doing it for years.
They just now they go down.
And we couldn't do this when I was in the business.
We couldn't go down a mile and then go a mile out and stay within a few feet of where they want to be.
But they hit all these vertical fractures in these shales, which normally don't produce oil.
Clay doesn't let fluids flow through it very well.
But there's enough fractures that they open those fractures up.
And those fractures never make it to the surface.
All this stuff about fracking, you know, contaminating wells is just nonsense for the most part.
It's fracking nonsense.
It is.
And they just don't want us to find more oil.
But there's a lot of oil out there.
But here's a question: if we go to West Texas, the oil is supposed to be in these so-called Permian rocks, which is about the third, fourth mega sequence up.
They're supposed to be 250 million years old.
And we drill into these fracking into these things.
Why is there still oil there?
If this stuff was produced its oil millions of years ago, why are we still finding buku amounts of oil?
Now, do you mean because we should be running out of oil?
Well, it should have all produced itself by now.
If it's really a million, you know, hundreds of millions of years old, there shouldn't be any oil left.
It should have all produced all of its oil.
There should just be water.
And they told me when I was that shove around it, drilling oil wells in Wyoming, the oil is 150 million years old.
It just sat in there waiting for us to drill into.
I'm like, that's nonsense.
It's also being eaten, though, isn't it?
Yeah, there's bacteria everywhere.
So there's not, so that's something that I don't understand about oil.
So oil over time becomes water.
Well, it gets eaten up.
I mean, if, well, you stop producing it, all you're going to get is water.
Know once, when oil fields go dry, all they produce is water.
The oil gets separated and so they start producing more and more water.
The oil older oil fields are.
They get very little oil out of them.
Eventually they plug the wells.
I think it's still producing because it's not that old.
Yeah, it's just it's drop by drop so they're not going to fill up, probably in our lifetimes.
But some of these oil fields will maybe fill back up.
But if they're really millions of years old there should be no oil left.
It should have all been produced.
That's my.
That was my point.
Maybe I wasn't.
Is that the same with, like finding finding actual tissue on a triceratops?
In a lot of ways it's the same thing, that kind of thing exactly.
You know, you find all these original proteins and cells and and osteocytes, bone making cells and things like that in dinosaurs.
They found um, I think, over 120 uh published papers now where they found different original proteins on things supposedly as old as a half a million, half a billion years old, 500 million years old, in these worms that find original uh proteins.
And you know their argument is, well they're, if they're bathed in this little experiment that was done, bathe them in iron.
But there's no iron in these things, there's no iron in these worms, so there's no way to preserve them.
The evolutionists just argue, no, we know, they're old, so they got to be old and so we don't care what the data says.
Right, and you know?
So who's following the science here?
Interesting so, Dave go, can we sequence that dna from the triceratops to make a triceratops clone and then create a park called the Institute OF Creation Research PARK?
If you will, we already have a hidden location, mega Sequence park, undisclosed location in which we have four dinosaurs.
Please don't believe that.
Whoever yeah, that's not true tell us about that.
Is that possible?
Can you make a clone from triceratops?
Well, you know, Jack Horner wanted to to take chicken dna, because Jack Horner who was, you know um, the consultant on Jurassic Park yeah uh, he said well, they all evolved into birds, so we should be able to take chicken dna, mix it in, because they found dna bits.
It's not real dna that you can actually sequence and and actually make anything out of.
But he said hey, i'll bet we could take chicken dna and do that.
That was many, many years ago and that has just kind of drifted off into nothing.
Didn't age wise, hasn't worked.
Hasn't worked.
No, mosquitoes trapped in amber?
No yeah well, there are, but yeah, but yeah, they've got snippets of Dna, dens or Dna which shouldn't be there.
Even those little snippets should have.
Should have decayed away.
Yeah, if they're really millions of years old, and it's the same thing.
Oil, oil can't be millions of years old.
You put oil in your back shed for 20 years and leave it in a.
It's not.
Your gas or oil is not going to work.
Well, you can drink it, but yeah, underground.
Well no underground, don't drink it.
It actually biodegrades, and so most oil we do produce is is biodegraded to some respects.
It's, you know, there's quicker at the surface.
When BP spilled out the oil and unfortunately, a few people died, most of the oil was eaten up by bacteria and there's just the tar sank to the bottom, but even the tar will be gone.
The tar sands in Alberta, for example, are really are Oils that get biodegraded to the point where they're just tar left.
And a lot of it is there.
But, you know, that's the big, that's the plankton and the LG and stuff.
The marine algae was buried in the flood.
And it was buried so fast it didn't decay.
Today, things are sinks at the bottom of the ocean.
They get eaten and decayed and scavenged away.
You're not producing these oil-rich rocks or these kerogen-rich rocks that have all this decayed marine algae.
It's only because of the flood that we even have oil that we can drive around.
We can have the world that we have today with all this cheap energy really that God provided almost as a pro, you know, in his providence for us.
And the coal is the same way.
The coal is the plants that are buried rapidly in the flood.
You look at the coal seams, they're flat tops and bottoms all over the world.
You know, they're buried with limestone above and below.
So they're buried in marine rocks, ocean rocks.
You know, coal doesn't form that way.
You should see roots coming through the bottom.
You should see all these things.
I took a class at Wyoming when I was a student there, as a master's student.
We went to these coal seams in Wyoming, looked at 80-foot-thick coal seams, and they're 200-foot-thick coal seams.
And they're like, We got nothing to explain this.
You know, the evolutionary world can't explain these thick coal seams.
They're pure coal.
They go 60 miles by 60 miles in all directions.
It's only the flood provides these things.
But the evidence is right there in front of people.
They just don't see it because they're blinded by the stories they've been told for over 100 years now.
Stories of great deep times, stories of slow deposition, stories of everything.
But the data is right there.
When you really look at the data and the rocks themselves, they show a global flood.
The pattern is there.
And I love telling youth, because I do speak to youth a lot.
I love telling them, you know, God was punishing people.
God was punishing the people on the earth.
But even in his punishment, he was providing.
There was provision, even in his punishment, to give us what we need to live today.
And that's also the coolest part.
Now we're told that fossil fuels are bad.
It's like that's not the case.
Yeah, modern civilization is largely built up around fossil fuels, it seems.
Elon Musk, he gets it.
He realizes we got to have these things.
This is going to not go over well in California, maybe, but I taught environmental geology for many years before I came to ICR after I got my PhD.
And I talked about what we do with our hazardous waste and things.
We just dump it all down wells, dump our liquid hazardous waste down deep wells.
That's all we're doing.
We're not really cleaning it up.
We're just burying it deeper now than we used to.
But even the electric cars, where's that power come from?
Over three-fourths of our electricity comes from fossil fuels, coal, oil, and natural gas.
So you're plugging your car and you're plugging your computer and you're plugging these things in, thinking you're green.
You really, you're using the coal plant down the street.
And so it's really kind of a, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of a lie that people are being told that electric is the way to go.
But we, we, we've been driving around here in California the last two days.
We don't see very many electric cars.
We have more electric cars in Austin than Dallas, Texas.
Yeah, than you guys have in Columbia.
That's because people have more expendable income in Austin, Texas than they do.
That might be true too.
Because of the tax rates.
That might be true, actually.
But electric cars are not green.
That's my point, is they're still using fossil fuels for a lot of these things.
And I admit, you know, we need to diversify.
We need to do more solar and more, you know, different types of energy because you can't rely on one source for everything.
But right now, oil and natural gas really is the cheapest source of energy we have and coal as well.
And, you know, China's burning it away.
They're burning, burning, burning, burning.
And no one's complaining about China burning coal, but they complain that we're burning coal and tying our hands and making us pay extra fees.
And because we're ruining the world, but what about these other countries that are just going right to town?
Oh, yeah.
But electric cars are not the answer.
So what is the answer?
What is the answer?
Is it ostrich meat?
Yes, I believe it is.
Ostrich meat, it is.
No, well, I think we need to try to replant the Sahara.
We need to be good.
Well, yeah, it's another story.
But we need to be good stewards.
You know, we do, we can't just rely on one thing.
We can't just burn like we used to do in the 19th century and everything became black and covered in soot.
We got to try to burn coal clean.
If we do use coal, we've got to try to burn things and not destroy the environment.
I'm as big environmentalist as anybody, but I think using coal and oil and natural gas properly, we've got hundreds and hundreds of years of coal and oil, especially if we frack more and do things like that we're luring the technology to use.
So I think we've got the resources to provide for civilization for hundreds of years in terms of just fossil fuels.
It's just that people are used to talk about peak oil.
We're running oil, running oil.
They've been saying that for 100 years.
And now we just doubled our oil reserves of fracking.
And of course, the extreme environmentalists, they want to, oh, we can't do that because that's keeping us on oil.
But you can't just go to solar and keep our world the way we're running.
We'll go back into the dark ages if we get rid of oil and gas right now.
Yeah.
But we've got to.
That's what the Democrats want.
I agree.
They want us to go back to the dark ages.
Well, they must have been circs.
They would love that.
You know, just they get to keep their oil and their gas and run their places.
The rest of us are going to be graveling around in the mire like a money pipe.
Yeah, our governor's like that.
Yeah.
He's like, you guys do this.
I'm going to go ahead and keep my winery open.
So you've made a good case for why the Earth is younger based on these mega sequences and everything.
But didn't dinosaurs live 65 million years ago?
Were they floating in space because the Earth didn't exist yet?
Or where did they go?
Where were the dinosaurs?
Well, actually, they changed the number down to 66 when they went extinct.
So they moved in a million years.
They just didn't tell most people.
How did they?
So that movie 65 that came out, there would have been no changed it since they would have missed by a million years.
I saw that movie on a plane.
I did too.
I saw it on a plane too, and it was, it wasn't that good.
Yeah.
I like Adam Driver.
He does, he holds.
He holds guns really well.
Okay.
It's because he was a military.
I didn't like that movie much either.
Did you notice how good his guy played?
His gun holding?
No, I didn't see it.
He did some good gun holding in that.
Check it out.
I love some good gun holding.
If you know how to shoot a gun, that's one of the first things you notice, though.
Yeah.
In a movie that you're like, what are you doing?
Right.
He's like a real, he was a real mill.
He's a, I think he's a Marine.
So Dave, did you also see 65?
Actually, no, I did not, to tell the truth.
You got to fly Morris.
You don't sit on the plane like I did.
I don't get to travel as much as Dr. Clary.
So it was interesting.
But anyway, they changed the year to 66 a while back.
But people still say 65 a lot because it's kind of big.
It seems to me like that extra million really doesn't make much of a difference.
What's a million years between friends?
Yes.
Well, and they've actually done studies, both evolutionists and creationists have done studies where they try to project how long these proteins, the collagen and the DNA and all these proteins can last.
And most of them say you can't last more than a million years, which of course is theoretical, right?
I've seen one up to 3 million.
And I say, I ask kids, is 3 million equal to 66 million?
They go, no, you see, even a kid understands.
And that's the youngest.
It doesn't make sense.
And so it can't last.
Now, we understand that these proteins can last thousands of years, a few thousand years, 10,000 years, something like that.
So when you go back and you start finding the proteins in worms and dinosaurs and all these kinds of things throughout the entire geological column, you start to realize it actually lines up better.
We're talking about just do the facts line up better with creation or evolution?
They literally line up better with creation.
When you look at the real science, look at the real facts.
It lines up better with creation every single time.
As you were talking about earlier, maybe I didn't answer it, but the oil is really another type of soft tissue.
You know, you're putting gas in your car.
That stuff can't be millions of years old.
They try to say it is, but it would break down.
It would biodegrade.
It would be eaten.
There's bacteria everywhere.
You go to Yellowstone.
It's almost to the boiling point.
There's bacteria everywhere as deep as we've drilled.
There's bacteria.
It just does, it decays a little slower underground without all the oxygen, but it's still eating the oil.
So bacteria eats oil.
Bacteria eats oil.
And it gets really fat.
We have fat bacteria.
What happens to that bacteria?
I don't know.
Does it die and become oil?
Well, no, I don't think it dies.
I don't think that the circular.
Is that the real circular?
You need big, big compounds, data, the big hydrocarbons, as they call them.
But I think.
And they've actually made marine algae in our government research labs under the right conditions into oil in less than an hour.
So oil doesn't take long to form either.
I think I think it was forming within a few hundred years after the flood.
You read the Bible, it talks about the Tower of Babel.
They're using oil in their mortar.
And they actually see some of those mortars are still around today after thousands and thousands of years.
That was a good mortgage.
The oil mortar was actually a really good technology.
Have you?
Is there a site for the Tower of Babel?
Do we know this?
I don't know.
No, there's arguments back and forth.
It's somewhere between Babylon and Southeast Turkey is what people say, somewhere in that area.
Somewhere in that area.
But they did find Sodom and Gomorrah recently.
Yeah, that's what I've heard.
I think that's speculative.
There's arguments about it.
Yeah, there's arguments.
There's always.
Oh, look, it's salt everywhere.
Oh, look.
No, it's the one.
No, recently there was this.
There's these two cities that were flattened by a from above.
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, and melted.
They were basically melting.
We're cutting out our interviewers now.
Yeah, it's okay.
That's okay.
We're enjoying that.
That was a wide range.
I'd like to ask you a few questions in that area.
We haven't found the Noah's Ark either.
I think it's a little bit further.
Well, hold on.
Do you really?
No, I think it's further to the west.
You don't think, Ron, what's his name, White, or whatever?
You don't think that one site is actually just a lot partially eroded lava flow that came off of Mount Ararat that kind of looks like a boat shape.
What about the other site?
The big, the one in the ice up on the top of the mountain.
Well, I don't know if they found, confirm anything on that either.
To my knowledge, they have ancient timber.
Well, it could be some ancient timber.
4,000 years old.
It could be.
What about the site where Noah's Ark is?
Well, I think it was west of there, this uplift that came up at the right time based on the research I'm doing to kind of figure out where the peak was would have been about the end of the Cretaceous, about that, you know, where you where the dinosaur disappears.
That's about the high point of the flood.
And then it went over the top at that point.
So I think there's an uplift that came up.
There's no sediments on top of it at all.
It's called a paleo high.
Okay.
And it's about eight or ten thousand feet high, but it's a little bit to the west of Mount Ararat.
So it's the mountains of Ararat, the Bible says, not Mount Ararat.
Mount Ararat's an ice age volcano.
So if that would have erupted after the flood, mostly.
Do you think it's possible to find Noah's Ark?
Would there even be anything?
I don't think there's much left because I think it probably got scavenged by humans.
I think in addition to providing two of every kind, it also provided ready-made building materials for the next 50 years when there's no trees.
So I think they kind of pulled it all off.
I would have used that gopher wood.
Yeah, I would.
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And gopher wood just really means that based on a study of our guys at ICR did, Jeff Tompkins and Jim Johnson, that really just means hardwood.
Oh, that's really kind of really good.
Instead of, you know, using pine, they used some sort of hardwood like oak or something like that.
Well, of course they used something.
It's kind of anticlimactic.
So yeah, I was like, oh, I thought there was a lot of stuff.
I always thought there was a special gopher, too.
The gophers had to make it.
Yeah.
That's right.
Gopher Wood.
Gophers were making it.
All the gophers made it.
So can I ask you once and for all, either of you, did dinosaurs have feathers?
No.
Did they live in existence with humans?
Yes.
But I think they lived in different areas.
That's why they're at the same time, just not in the same place.
Really?
Except for a few teenage boys who went down there and they never came back.
So it wasn't like the hit picture book, Dinotopia.
No.
Yeah.
After the flood, maybe they might have been, because we talk about in the book of Job and we see carvings all over the world.
But what amazed me is most of those carvings show the legs coming straight down, which we didn't realize that dinosaurs' legs came straight down until 1841.
Yeah.
You're talking like a Baranosaurus.
Yeah, well, like carvings, you know, like you see in Cambodia, there's a Stegosaurus and things like that that looks like it has plate steak on its back.
The legs come straight down.
So, you know, those all dinosaurs, by definition, they walk direct.
You know, they didn't sprawl like crocodiles sprawl around.
Oh, so the legs come straight down.
So even a Tyrannosaurus rex has, but the head.
The legs come straight down.
But they're and balances on its, you know, everything crawling on their belly.
On the back, right.
They pivot.
Everything pivots on their back hips on those.
Or if it's a four-legged, you know, long-necked one, it's on both sides.
They're a herd animal.
And that's, that's one of the key things is that in what was it?
I think it was 1993 or something, National Geographic actually wrote an article that said, no human being has ever seen a live dinosaur.
Well, but we have an entire wall in our discovery center that shows where people have painted, carved, etched dinosaurs.
I went to, I got to speak over in Scotland and England.
I went to Carlisle Cathedral and I had to, you couldn't tell them that you were a creationist.
But I almost thought I was going to be thrown out.
But anyway, the point is this, there's this carpet and it's a memorial to Bishop Bell.
And there's this brass inlay.
It's actually very well preserved.
It's one of the few that are still in existence.
And so they have this carpet over it because it's right in the middle of the walkway where you walk.
And you have to get them to lift the carpet for you.
Well, I did that.
It was a little nerve-wracking.
I got the lift the carpet and it's two sawpod dinosaurs.
I mean, it's everyday animals.
Foxes, fish, eels, birds, I think, dogs, pigs.
They're all on this inlay, and then there's two sauropod dinosaurs.
And what they say is, well, when I was in there, I asked the guy, I said, could you lift a carpet?
Because he told me they were bad representations of dragons.
Oh, interesting.
Which is not true because they carved dragons in a cathedral.
And that is not true.
They have good representation of dragons.
Those are good representations of a sauropod dinosaur.
But I had to go ask this one guy, hey, would you let me see it?
And he said, what I said was, can I see the dragons?
He said, well, that's not what they look like.
And I'm like, oh, well, the other guy said they looked like dragons.
And he said, well, no, they look like dinosaurs.
I thought, oh, well, everybody knows they're dinosaurs.
And then all of a sudden he goes, but I won't lift that carpet for those creationists.
Those crazy creationists think that if just because Bishop Bell has dinosaurs on his memorial, that they must have seen dinosaurs.
And I start sweating.
I'm like, oh no, I wonder what handcuffs they use in the cathedral, you know?
And so I said, oh, well, I didn't know.
I'd just love to see it.
And he smiled at me and I'm like, this is it, Boston.
And he said, because you came in a different way, I'll let you do it.
So I got these great pictures of these two sauropod dinosaurs.
And we find them all over the place.
Cambodia, you find it in Utah.
You have them in China, everywhere.
Even where in Israel, you have these representations.
And it's very obvious.
You think about it.
I asked kids, I said, I love the dinosaurs.
If you've seen a picture of a giraffe, if I see that you've drawn a picture of a giraffe, I know that you've seen a giraffe.
Now, you may have TV, internet, about books, all this kind of stuff now, but 500 years ago, 800 years ago, 1,000 years ago, you don't have that.
So if I know you've drawn a picture of a giraffe or a dinosaur, I know that you've seen a dinosaur.
And so that entire wall and so much evidence shows us that humans saw dinosaurs.
And if you look in Job, sorry, not to take over a little bit, but in Job, it talks about behemoth.
And it even says, this is a prime example of my handiwork.
In other words, he says, this is the biggest, baddest thing I've ever made.
And what's the one thing that we keep seeing over and over drawn and etched and carved?
The sauropod dinosaur is the biggest one that we see over.
Tail like a cedar.
So a saupod is like a baranosaurus.
Big body, bigosaurus or something like that.
Well, you would.
Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah.
You know, you brought up that point about the dinosaurs that have feathers.
And, you know, there's other creationists that will say they did.
But, you know, we, I haven't seen the evidence that really shows that they did.
I think what they're saying, the feathered dinosaurs are really feathered birds.
There's a like some are just misclassified as dinosaurs.
And they're not looking at the back hips as much as they should.
You know, we can see if you pull them down, make them walk.
Birds and dinosaurs walk differently.
Birds balance on their knees and kind of have their thighs inside their body and they walk differently.
And all these things that they're finding in China, which worries me a little bit as well.
If you pull the legs down and make them walk like a dinosaur, they'd be front heavy and fall over.
And so these, I think there really are birds that they're calling dinosaurs.
They're blurring the definition, the evolutionary world is today.
They're trying to make them turn out.
But, you know, they've got birds in rocks, Archaeopteryx, for example, in Jurassic rocks.
And then above it, they've got what they call the most bird-like dinosaurs in what's called Cretaceous rocks, which is all part of the same mega sequence.
But, you know, to them, it's 40 million years of time or so between.
How do you have birds?
And then you have bird-like dinosaurs that turn into birds.
It's like having the grandchild before the grandparent.
Oh, yeah.
It's like, how do you do that?
And so they go, well, there's ghost lineages.
Well, we haven't found the evidence for them, but there's something that was an ancestor to both.
Now, the Cambrian explosion has everything all mixed up together.
Yeah, it has all a lot of marine critters as almost every major animal phyla suddenly shows up all around the world at the same time.
There's just a few fossils before that, mostly algae and these things called stromatolites, kind of from one-celled critters.
And all of a sudden, boom, you got everything, including vertebrates, show up suddenly all over the world.
And this is a mystery to evolutionists.
Even Richard Dawkins in his book writes that these just show up as if they were just planted there, already evolved.
So he has no answer for it.
Stephen Gould, same thing.
He says, we have no answer for the Cambrian explosion.
And yet it makes perfect sense to the global flood because everything was already there.
It just got buried in different order.
So it makes perfect sense for a creationist, but an evolutionist has no clue how to.
Like Dave said earlier, you're going to bury the marine things first.
That's what we see.
The first three sequences, mega sequences, are really just marine, marine, marine.
Yeah, and all of a sudden, there's land and coal all sudden, all over the world at the same time.
Land, animals, and coal shows up in great numbers.
It's like, it's like, huh, we hit a different level now.
And so, when you look at from the flood, it makes a lot of sense.
But the biggest argument that the evolutionists have is they try to make the earth old.
They started talking about millions of years even before they had methods to say millions of years old.
But they use the age dating now, the radioactive dating methods to try to argue all these things are old.
But those, being a mathematician that I used to be, you know, they're really solving four equations.
They need four equations.
They have four unknowns.
They're assuming two of them.
So then they can solve the last two because they have two equations, two unknowns kind of thing.
But they just make big assumptions to get to that point.
But the way they teach students, the way they teach, you know, myself included as a geology student, they just teach you these are facts, these are facts, these are facts.
They throw them out there in the movies, they throw them out there as if this was factual.
These numbers are really real.
And nobody can even imagine a million years.
You know, try to sit back and imagine a million years.
It's just, it's like you're playing with monopoly money right off the bat.
So you're saying there's not a scientist in a lab coat who's been sitting somewhere for a million years watching if something decay or something.
No, and not at all.
And we're finding actually in the dinosaur bones, in addition to the soft tissues, they're finding carbon-14, which can only survive for thousands of years before it's, you can't measure it anymore, maybe 80 to 100,000 years.
But almost every dinosaur bone that's been tested, not just by creationists, but evolutionary scientists, they've sent some off as well.
And coal, we've even sent off ICR sent off a big research project that sent off diamonds to labs all over the different labs on the country.
And they found carbon-14 in the diamonds, which shows that these things are only thousands of years old.
You can't be, you know, that's the maximum age is 100,000 years if you find measurable carbon-14 in a diet.
How do you contaminate a diamond?
That's really hard.
I've tried.
So, I mean, there's no people.
It's a difficult thing to do.
The evolutionary world was kind of quiet on that.
They don't say anything about that because there's compelling evidence to show that the Earth is not as old as they say it is.
So ICR's contention is that the Earth is young, but how young?
We think about 6,000 years old.
Okay, so 6,000.
Like according to scripture, but also you're thinking that the geological data actually suggests that.
Yes, there's a lot of evidence to show there's a lot of maximum ages.
Even the universe, the galaxies, the way they're winding up stuff, they would have wound up in four or five hundred million years.
You wouldn't even see the galaxies, the spiral arms that we have.
They'd have wound up in just circles.
So there's a lot of evidence, even the universe and the earth, everything we see, there's maximum ages out there, but none of them show billions of years or like they claim it is.
So if the dinosaurs lived after the flood, like you said, what exactly killed them?
Was it a huge asteroid?
What about that huge crater?
Was it the super predator?
That's another whole story in itself.
Well, I think it was.
I think you're on the right path.
I think humans were killing them.
You know, you hear about these knights killing dragons.
I think there's some tooth to some of that because in the pre-flood world, they probably lived in separate areas.
They stayed near the plants that God made for the certain animals to eat.
And so they stayed near their where they started eating each other, you know, after Adam and Eve sinned, then animals started eating each other as well.
We see evidence of that in the fossil record of teeth bites and things.
But they still lived in their same area.
They were buried separately.
You don't find lions and tigers and bears mixed with dinosaurs.
They lived at higher elevations, camels, and I think most of the large cows and things that we see, they're above the dinosaurs if you find their fossils.
But afterwards, they were living in the same areas and the ice age came on.
And so you had a limited area where all these animals, especially cold-blooded animals, which I believe dinosaurs were, they had a limited range where they couldn't live too far north.
It's too cold.
And they had just kind of stick in the same area where the Middle East area, for example, like where Job was at.
And so there was more interaction.
And I think humans perceive these things as these things can be very dangerous and scary.
Let's kill them.
And so, between the different climate after the flood and humans killing them off and bragging to your friends, you kill a dinosaur.
So, there's got to be a tricep.
I think that kind of wiped them out.
But there's also a lot of long-term climate differences between the pre-flood world.
I don't want to say climate change because there was a massive climate change between the pre-flood and the post-flood.
I don't know how bad it was, but I think in the pre-flood, everything was global greenhouse-you know, lots of CO2 and all that changed when you make all these rocks like limestone pulls it out of the air, all that kind of stuff.
And so, the vast difference, it's almost like they got off the ark and they're still living at 10,000 feet.
You know, I think there's less oxygen, less CO2.
And so, the animals, dinosaurs couldn't be as active as they were.
So, dinosaurs living at sea level, essentially.
And how did any of them survive the flood on the ark?
God says he brought two of every kind.
So, there were two Tyrannosaurus rexes on the Ark.
A kind of those, yeah.
I mean, maybe not specifically that species, okay.
Maybe the big ones got wiped out by the flood.
Well, but you got to think about what you're begging the question: well, how do these big, huge dinosaurs get on the ark?
Well, let me ask you this: name big dinosaurs, name some big dinosaurs.
Well, Tyrannosaurus rex, that's that's a theropod, big theropod, diplogocus, diplogocus, big sauropod, triceratos.
That's a big honesty, yeah.
Uh, what about uh, the one that was uh in the most recent Jurassic Park?
You've only got three so far, bronosaurus, that's still sauropod dinosaur, so you don't need but two sauerprocessors.
Well, that's cheating.
You said individual dinosaurs, okay.
Well, what other kinds are there?
Um, Henry the dinosaur, I know there's like the herd ones, Henry the dinosaur.
Oh, Henry the Hadrosaur, yeah, Arne the dinosaurs.
But the point is, this is that there's not that many we think about dinosaurs as these huge, these huge animals.
The average size is probably about the size of buffalo or bison, right?
And the other thing is, how big, how big is a sauropod dinosaur when it's born?
Probably the size of an elephant.
I have the replica in my office.
Well, they're from eggs, right?
But an half L football is about the biggest.
So, really, they're this big, yeah, they're very small.
Yeah, so it's one that was found in Morocco, sauropod dinosaur, and it's about that big.
So, now do you see any problem with taking because think about it?
The bigger ones are older.
You don't want to take the old ones because then they don't have as much time to have families and populate the earth, right?
But you want to take the younger ones so they're smaller.
They have growth.
We found they have growth spurs just like us, okay?
And so, you're going to take the younger, smaller ones that have more time to populate the earth just before that.
So, now you don't have a problem with getting dinosaurs on the ark.
That also means that all the dinosaurs had to have lived in the turkey region at that point.
So, they come out of Turkey, they come out of the ark, yes, like any of the dinosaurs that were on the ark would be the only ones post-flood, right?
Right, right, yeah.
Everything else is buried in the flood.
The fossils we dig up are flood dinosaurs, flood dinosaurs, and there's there's millions more we'll never see.
We only see the That are folded up against the mountains where they've been exposed.
Sure, there's a lot more under you know, a lot of our states in the United States that are still buried underneath.
We can't ever get to now.
They found woolly mammoths and stuff in the permafrost.
Right.
Do you think we'll ever find any of the dinosaurs up there, or was it too cold?
No, it's probably too cold up there.
During the ice age, you know, there's certain animals that, you know, again, the dinosaurs had to probably go towards the equator.
They'd migrate.
You know, the ice age is important, though, because it lowered sea level, made land bridges, temporary land bridges, so animals could go from the ark to all these different distant continents.
And so it's amazing how God had a plan to repopulate the earth.
But the ice age was a consequence of the flood.
And there's a lot of, I could explain that another time, but you know, part of the problem with all the rapid movement of the plates and everything created volcanoes and cooled the earth with volcanic eruptions and aerosols.
And then you all said the oceans were really hot from the new seafloor that was created.
So the oceans took hundreds of years maybe to cool down.
So you had a lot of hot oceans going to cause a lot of evaporation, a lot of rain, a lot of snow.
And so snow makes these big ice sheets.
And if you have a cooler climate, cooler climate.
Yeah.
So the climate change was happening.
How hot was the ocean?
The ocean, well, people have estimated it might have been 20 degrees Celsius hotter.
It might have been 70, 80.
So when you're talking about people, I need you to speak an American language.
Okay.
I speak metric.
Yeah.
That's my final language.
I don't speak metric.
No, but it's people have estimated.
Nobody knows.
I mean, nobody knows how much heat there was, but it definitely was a lot warmer, you know, probably by 30, 40 degrees Fahrenheit or even more.
And so the hotter it is, the more it's going to be kind of like spa.
Yeah, probably for a while.
And then it cooled down.
So on the coastal areas, there's evidence of humans walking barefoot off like Vancouver Island in Pleistocene mud.
And so along that coast, because the water was warm, it was very balmy.
But if you go inland, that's where the ice was building up, even in the northern regions.
So they could walk across the Bering Sea, was dry land.
As long as it's stuck near the coast, it probably wasn't all that bad.
So Vancouver Island, is that one of the land bridges?
Because we saw it, or it's close to one.
That would have been.
Yeah, I think that would have been.
I watched alone.
So I'm aware of Vancouver Island.
That's a great show.
That's a great show.
That's where it took place.
You'd never want to walk barefoot there now.
No.
That was a post-flood.
I don't walk barefoot anywhere.
I don't either.
I hate anyone soon.
Legitimately, in my house, I don't walk barefoot.
So you guys are obviously very passionate about creationism and everything, but would you consider young earth creationism like almost a litmus test for Christianity?
Or would you just believe whatever you want?
No, not at all.
Well, you can't believe whatever you want.
You know, it's Christianity.
You just said.
But if you are an old earth creationist, you're not a Christian.
No, no, that's not true at all.
I just think that they, well, actually, sometimes they feel that way.
They feel like we tell them that, but that's not true.
We think, you know, Christianity revolves, it's all about, like it says in Ephesians 2, you know, you're saved by grace through faith.
And it's faith in Jesus.
That's what makes you a Christian.
Whether you believe the, you know, literal story of the Noah's flood and the creation in six days that we believe, you know, that's not really what makes you a Christian or not.
I think it makes you a better believer in the truth of God's word, the overall truth of God's word.
The clarity of scripture, to me, you don't need to translate it.
Some people come on and say, oh, you have to have a scientist translate.
It's not really a science book.
Well, it's not, but when the word of God speaks about science, it's correct.
You know, God's word is true.
Even Jesus said that in John's, you know, thy word is true.
And he didn't speak in King James, though, by the way.
No.
Some people think that, but I don't think so.
But he could have.
He would have sounded like John Cleves, probably.
Because miracles.
Because miracles is the answer.
I thought he spoke Aramaic.
Anyway, that doesn't, yeah.
That's what I learned from.
To dispel that myth that Christianity realized that you have to believe, you know, there was a flood.
I think it's in there for a reason.
I think it's truthful.
I think Jonah was real.
There's, you know, all these stories are historical.
These things really happen.
Jesus refers to Noah.
He refers to Jonah.
These things really did happen the way God put it in there.
Yeah.
And so, but that doesn't determine your faith in Jesus.
Yeah.
Right.
I think the important thing to understand is that it's not necessarily that you don't have salvation.
There's lots of famous pastors that have said stuff about evolution that I go, oh, I don't question their salvation, but it puts you on a slippery slope because you think about it.
I won't name any names.
There's a famous Christian apologist that is awesome at Christian apologetics.
Awesome.
But when it comes to evolution, he goes, well, am I supposed to believe that these plants just sprouted like a Walt Disney movie and stuff?
You know, I mean, it's obvious that had to take more than 24 hours.
Well, the problem is now you're saying, I have to have a natural answer for all the creation week miracles.
Yeah.
Well, when you do that, you're on a slippery slope because now, what's your natural answer for Jesus walking on the water?
Right.
What's your natural answer for Jesus' virgin birth?
Let's move on.
What's your natural natural answer for Jesus rising from the dead?
Yeah.
So you're on a real slippery slope when it comes to that.
Even in Romans, it says that death entered because of sin.
So death was a special punishment for sin.
So if I want to try and stuff millions of years into that, well, now I'm actually saying that God on the after the first day, millions of years of death, disease, and suffering, he looks out on and says that it is good, right?
He says that after every day, except for the second one, right?
It is good.
Sixth day, it is very good.
Well, now I'm aligning the character of God because I just made him look at millions of years of death, disease, and suffering and say it is good.
So all animals before the flood were herbivores before the Garden of Eden.
Before Adam and Eve sinned.
So then carnivores come later.
Carnivores came along after Adam and Eve sinned because we do see the evidence.
We got T-Rex teeth, which are very distinctive, biting into duck-billed dinosaurs, hadrosaurs.
You can see right the tooth broke off and the animal healed.
He didn't even get killed.
So, you know, they weren't truly just scavengers, like some people have said.
But is animal death really like bad?
I mean, like, is that the shedding of blood?
The spiritual death versus well, it's the shedding of blood that's very significantly.
Got it.
You know, that's that's Jesus's blood ultimately is what saves us.
Right.
That covers our sin.
That basically, that's their forgiveness.
I believe in blood.
Right.
And so there was no bloodshed until Adam and Eve sinned.
Okay.
And then God made God made, he killed the first animals to give them coverings.
That's right.
For their clothes.
And so did Adam and Eve become carnivores.
I'm sorry, Travis.
I don't know if they did or not.
Because the book, because the movie Noah suggests after that.
Yeah, I would have to be omnivores.
They aren't just carnivores.
They can eat.
Well, I mean, Michaela Peterson's a carnivore.
Some people are.
Some of us are closer than others.
Well, after the flood, God said you can eat these things.
So you can eat animals.
Boy, there Noah ate to be a vegetarian.
In the pre-flood world, I believe there was a lot.
The plants were much different.
A lot of them, the amount of plants, I think it was specifically designed for nutrition of every animal.
Certain animals ate certain plants.
Certain, you know, humans ate certain plants, I think, and supplied all the nutrition.
That was the plan.
Similar to the flood, he's Darren Aronofsky's Noah.
Okay.
Have you seen the movie?
Well, I did.
Russell Crowd.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The only thing good about that was it was a very fast flood and it came shooting out of the out of the water.
Oh, he did show a global flood.
I was impressed with that.
Most people try to say it's a local flood.
Yeah, you know, that was, that was the most impressive thing.
It was a global flood in that way.
So big question.
Hide the hydro plate theory.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
So I did want to know your take on this.
If you're unfamiliar with the hydroplate theory out there in B-land.
Yeah.
What is it?
And what do you think of it?
Well, I think it was, you know, an interesting idea put forth, you know, like the 80s industrially, I believe, by Walt Brown.
And he and I had a big conversation on the phone a few years ago.
And I think there's been a lot of technology now shooting seismic data over these trenches and showing that subduction is real.
One of the amazing thing is they show these trenches.
They can show the subducted slab.
It's the same temperature all the way down deep into the earth, which to me shows that runaway subduction really did happen because these things should have heated up.
They go all the way down to the top of the core.
You have cold slabs of crust, you know, basically lithosphere is a technical term.
It goes all the way down to the bottom of the mantle.
So how do you do that?
Unless these things went down fast, they should have, there's slowly, like today's millions of years getting down that they would have all heated up.
So what's the actual difference?
Well, I'm getting there.
I'm getting there.
They showed the seismic data.
They showed the seismic data and they showed that these subduction zones are real, whether you want to believe they're slow or fast.
They are actually really, there is subduction of ocean crust that's being pulled down in the earth today very slowly.
Well, Walt says, well, those are just faults.
I said, Walt, you don't see cold faults where they're cold on one side and warm on the other.
And so I think what happened is the technology is advanced enough now that we can resolve the question that the subduction is real and it's really not part of.
So the water did break forth from the deep.
There was big cracks that opened up all over the earth.
We believe that as well.
There's rifts that I can map out.
You can see lava poured out in the east coast, the west coast.
The west coast wasn't where the west coast is today.
It was inland, about Idaho.
So for instance, like when you're talking about lava breaking forth, not to, it's on the same topic.
Water and lava.
But you're looking at, I just saw the devil's, the devil's backbone, is that right?
No, the devil's post-pile?
Post-pile.
Is that all those hexagons that came forth?
That's from the flood, right?
It's probably during the flood.
Those are probably during the flood or late in the flood.
Some of that stuff, like Devil's Tower, we were just there last week.
You know, that came up as the water was starting to recede.
You have these intrusions coming in.
There's a lot of things.
The mantle was really messed up during the flood.
So you have a lot of uplift of mountains at the end of the flood.
That's why all the mountains kind of form mostly at the end.
There's a few that didn't.
But back to the hydroplate theory.
Walt Brown believes that there was a 60-mile thick, this is my latest understanding, the 60-mile thick granite all around the earth.
60 miles of granite, which is the pink rock that you see, the igneous rock like the Sierra Nevadas.
So you have this big layer of 60 miles thick, and then there was water underneath that was about a mile thick.
And then God, you know, miraculously cracked it open and a crack went all the earth.
And we kind of believe that too, that there was cracks that opened up that made the plates.
But he thinks that cracked open this 60 mile thick granite.
The problem with this, one of the big problems with this theory is how did that granite go away?
The ocean crust today is a couple miles thick of basalt.
It's a black igneous rock.
And that's what covers 7% of the earth.
So how do you make 60 miles of what looks like continental crust?
Most of the continents are made out of granite, more of a buoyant, thick, 20, see, 12 miles thick, 15 miles thick of crust.
I'm trying to convert the metric in my head real fast.
And going back to...
Try to do it in feet now.
Yeah.
And then, yeah, it's a calculator.
Anyway, but it's vastly different.
The ocean crust is thin and different chemistry altogether from the continental crust.
It's and it's produced at the ocean ridges.
Oh, interesting.
And he says this big 60-mile thick thing just slid away at the late in the year to explain the mid-ocean ridge, but then it would have to go over a bigger ridge.
Got it.
The Pacific ridge is actually bigger, comes up through the Baja of California.
So there are some issues, but the idea of superheated water breaking forth is something that you guys believe too.
Well, I think there was possibly some water, lots of water coming out with the magma.
Because there's today, they even see water.
It's not water per se, it's like OH attached to minerals and things like that.
Enough water in the mantle today would be three or four times the amount of water in the ocean.
Gosh.
So if the lava comes up, it turns to steam.
What comes out of volcanoes today, most of the gases that come out are CO2 and water.
And so there's still a lot of water in the magmas that are coming up of volcanoes they erupt.
And so I think there was a tremendous amount of water, whether there's fountains of water shooting up.
Nobody can quite figure out, you know, the Bible talks about fountains of the Great Deep, but exactly what that means is a big question in the creation community.
But there was magma that was coming out.
We do see magma early before the first mega sequences or pilot on top.
We see lots of magma that shot up along big fractures in the East Coast, northern part of North America, and even in what was the West Coast all the way down through Southern California.
There's lots of magma.
Magma.
Is Yellowstone?
So there's water probably and magma both.
Is Yellowstone a big place for you?
Do you think it's a well?
I think it's part of the receding phase of the flood.
I think that's where this, where North America was moving so fast, it went right over the divergent boundary, like an ocean ridge.
So you have the mid-Atlantic ridge around the mid-Atlantic, a big mountain range 10,000 feet high that magma is still slowly oozing out of.
But during the flood, it would have been going much quicker.
But that one in the Pacific comes up, it's called the East Pacific Rise, and it comes up and it goes underneath North America.
And it comes out again over off Oregon and Washington.
And so where it went under, I think that's where Yellowstone left a trail of volcanoes.
Almost like you can follow it where it's underneath the Earth's crust today.
And they're trying to image that better and better.
And so going back to our hydroplate problem, I think the technology in the last 20, 30 years has superseded the idea that hydroplate theory works.
And also, to me, the crust.
You can't take ocean continental crust and miraculously make 7% of it into thin basaltic crust.
A completely different chemistry, completely different thickness.
And also, subduction to me shows that the catastrophic plate titaniums, we call it our runaway subduction, seems to be the winner.
You can actually visualize that.
You can see the cold slabs going deep in the earth, which the old earth guys can't explain how they get these cold slabs way down there, just like soft tissue.
There's all these things keep telling you it's young, it's young, it's young.
Oh, no, it can't be.
It's created with the appearance of age.
The light from stars was already here.
God made it so the stars' light didn't have to start at the origin and then work its way here.
That's a big question.
So the creation of the somehow he had to have the light here already because why put him out there if he can't see them?
You know, he talks about their seasons, the stars out there.
But he made the sun, the moon, the stars on day four.
Yeah.
And so if you think each day was great ages, you got the plants on day three and you got the sun, moon, and stars on day four.
How did the plants survive for a long period of time?
How did the plants survive?
God provided the light.
Yeah, he was the light.
He was the light.
You know what?
That's a good answer.
He was the light.
He's still our light.
He's the light of the earth.
You think about all the whole creation week, everything is happening, you know, according to some apologists.
Well, it had to have been over 24 hours.
Well, that means it was happening fast.
Everything's happening fast.
And so why would not distant starlight be the same thing?
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, we don't like to, you know, so light.
The appearance of age had to make things mature.
You know, you had to have trees.
Idea of Adam and Eve had to be whatever they were 20 years old.
They seed the earth on day three.
He didn't do it to fool us.
He didn't make a bunch of baby cows.
So he didn't plant dinosaur bones.
It would be cute.
No, no, I don't believe he did.
People have said he did that.
Yeah, people said that too.
That's that's true.
But they, yeah, it's uh, I, yeah, Satan planted the I've read.
Well, back in the you know, 16th, 17th century, that's kind of stuff they actually believed.
And some of the guys got it right now, they forgot.
You know, they kind of like, no, these are from the flood.
And then, but, you know, you go back 250 years, every scientist believed the earth was 6,000 years old.
Every scientist believed God was the creator in six days.
You know, it's just in the last since about the later part of the 18th century when James Hutton came along and he wanted to get the story, Noah out of and the writings of Moses out of science.
And they started trying to explain everything away naturalistically.
And he started talking about millions of years because he knew nobody could fathom them.
You know, even before they had the techniques to try to argue that yes, they are millions of years old based on decay and all that kind of stuff.
But again, all those are based on assumptions.
And my biggest problem is as someone that studied groundwater geology is not only you're bringing in bacteria all the time, destroying oil deposits and things that can't be old, but you're also moving minerals in and out of the system.
You dig up dinosaur bones.
There are many of them in Colorado and where we're digging them in our boss's land up in Wyoming.
They're full of uranium.
You get a Geiger kind of like clicking off the scale.
So uranium is moving.
It's very soluble.
So to try to say, I can tell how much uranium is originally here and how much decayed, it's just folly because you've got groundwater flow constantly all the time.
And nobody talks about that either.
That's interesting.
They're full of uranium.
That's crazy.
Yeah, because they're very porous and so they fill with the uranium is very soluble and it's moving around in the groundwater.
And so minerals are moving in and out of the system.
One of the big assumptions of age dating is you got to be able to have a closed system and figure out what was there and what's not.
You can't.
You cannot tell me that when you got millions, theoretically, millions or billions of years of groundwater flow going through there that you're going to be able to tell what was there originally.
Yeah, that's interesting.
You know, you tell me, how do you, that's why they make assumptions.
And then all of a sudden, oh, look, we can solve this.
But they assume they can tell what's there, what's not, what's been moved in out.
They, they plot up different things.
And it looks really good to the student when you're taking classes.
But they don't tell you that.
What about trees?
So wouldn't there be like really, really old trees if the world was that old?
There would be really old trees, it seems like alive still, because those trees don't necessarily have to die, do they?
Well, the trees got wiped out in the flood.
Oh, well, there was, yeah, there's a, but the oldest tree is now, what, like 5,000 years old?
They say that, but we don't believe it's quite that old.
You know, the ones that are up on the top of mountains.
We believe the flood, you know, happened about 4,500 years ago, 4,400 years ago.
But they do say that some of these trees are older than that, but you can make more than one ring a year.
Right.
You know, you can make, they're not annual rings.
They just, people always get that idea that everything's annual, but most of these rings and these, even these ice cores that people study and argue, oh, it's 900,000.
Like, well, you counted those.
You didn't physically count them.
You use some sort of a computer program to count them.
But, you know, every ice storm, every storm makes a ring, makes it later.
And so just like trees, you can have even in the 60s, they realized this, I think, in the regular scientific publications that you can make multiple tree rings a year.
So it's arguable.
Just through weather, weather.
Through weather patterns, right?
So you can, you can, you know, the oldest trees we find today, I think, might be dated at 5,000 years, but they're really not quite that old.
Not quite.
They're just 5,000 rings.
And even that's a bit of an art from what I understand to try to correlate back that far and count the numbers.
It's not as easy as science.
Yeah, a little bit.
It's a little bit of both.
So even geology is the same way.
Geology, we're looking at it in the past.
We're not doing chemistry where you can repeat the experiments over and over and over.
And geology is a forensic science.
It's like a crime scene.
We're looking at the rocks and you just look down and look at the flood rocks below you.
That's the crime scene.
How those rocks got there when they got there?
That's that we try to figure out.
But to me, the rocks show youth.
You know, there's no evidence of erosion between the layers.
There's supposed to be millions of years between certain layers, and it's just flat as you know, as a pancake.
So the world was flat before the flood.
Well, it was flatter.
Not a flat earth, don't go down that path.
The world down that path.
You heard it here.
No, no, no.
It was flat.
No, there was deposition of the mega sequences was fairly flat.
Some of them got folded, you know, during uplifts and things, but for the most part, the rocks are pretty flat.
You just mean flat like you know, Wyoming.
It's flat.
Well, flat like you know, bricks, you know, layer upon layer upon layer.
And some of them, you know, Wyoming's beautiful.
I was just there.
I mean, it feels flat.
Oklahoma's flat.
Oklahoma is really Dallas is flat.
Louisiana is flat.
I live there.
It's flat.
Yeah, you're right.
You guys are all right.
I'm wrong.
Well, I'm stupid.
Well, there's no, you're not.
There's flat areas even in Wyoming between the mountains.
Wyoming has mountains.
You know, but it's just a lot of that's because the way the water ran off and left these remnants.
And then you slow it.
Now, things today are moving slow.
You get slow deposition.
You do get slow erosion.
But when you have enough water in the right conditions, everything goes really fast.
And just like you can make oil fast under the right conditions, it doesn't take millions of years to make oil.
But, you know, I talked to some of the geologists I used to work for.
They're like, well, these things work because they're millions of years old.
I said, well, just change the time scale.
It still works.
You know, it's the same processes.
It's just under the right conditions.
And we don't think about the flood because we're not taught to think about the flood as a major catastrophic event.
Like you said, it was a judgment.
And you think, you know, why didn't God just kill everything right away?
It took 150 days where he wanted the people to feel some regret.
They probably did.
And they probably did for you know till almost to the end.
They were probably trying to build little boats, but the waves are too big.
You had to have a big arc.
And you had your 60 or 70 kinds of dinosaurs on there.
There's only really about, we talked earlier, there's only about probably 60 or 70 kinds of dinosaurs out there that you had to take.
And there's just lots of variety in between.
And so when God said, fill the earth, you know, they filled the earth.
And our one of the research things we're doing at our office, Randy Gluzer talked about, I think, on show here earlier, is called CET continuous environmental tracking.
Well, these elephants that went into the cold areas, you know, that's probably why they grew fur.
You know, they're they became the woolly mammoths.
They, they're, it's all internal because you put them in the DNA.
I'm just kidding.
Well, in some ways, totally kidding.
It's in the DNA.
They sense things just like your car senses.
You're going out of your lane.
It starts beeping.
You know, there are sensors that God put into us and the animals and the plants to sense changes in environment so they can adapt to that environment.
But it's not nature doing it.
Like Darwin said, it's nature doing it.
Nature has no intelligence.
Nature can't do it.
But what's built inside the animal can sense and then change, just like the blind cavefish, they go blind very quickly.
They don't take millions of years of bumping into walls and going blind.
We're finding in our research that these, you know, we're trying to see if we can get the eyes back in a few generations on the cave fish because these things are happening more quickly than scientists ever thought.
There's a lot of changes that take place very, very quickly within one generation or even less.
That's amazing.
And so that's that's kind of the research we're doing in addition to the research I'm doing.
There's so much here.
I wish we could talk all day.
I actually really am learning so much.
So encouraging to have you guys on.
I would love to know, Dave, if you could just say a little bit about the mega conference.
Yeah.
Mega conference.
Please, please tell us in 30 seconds, give us the pitch for mega conference.
Okay.
Wow.
Yeah.
Well, I tell you what, we've got a gentleman who is, it may be familiar to you, Kyle Mann.
Oh, I've heard of him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's a little known.
He's not real popular right now, but a little bit.
He'll be speaking.
We have Colonel Jeff Williams.
He's actually on our board.
He's actually been in space for over 500 days.
He was on International Space Station.
He has his photography of the world, not of the world, but someone says he's a space hog.
Yeah, that's that's what's been up there, been up there more than anyone else.
Yeah, he's hogging the time.
But uh, we're gonna have four of our PhDs there.
Okay, uh, Dr. Gluza, Dr. Clary, Sherwin, Dr. Thomas.
We have everybody there.
We've got youth tracks, we've got kids' tracks.
So we want families there because your youth are going to have their own classes.
Your kids are going to have their own classes.
So it's at their level.
We have a family fun night on that Friday night.
We've got Piercy Word Ministries going to be doing a play.
We've got JD Ministries.
He's doing fun science experiments with kids.
They bring kids up on stage, do science experiments.
And then Thursday, Friday, we actually have our PhDs giving dinosaur fossil walks.
So Creation Truth Foundation, we partner with them.
They have a huge fossil collection.
These guys actually walk you through and explain what you're looking at, why you're seeing evidence of the flood, what these animals were, are, and what they tell you about what God's creation was and is.
And so, and I think that's the real key is that even those fossils, you don't get those fossils without the flood.
Yeah.
And so as you walk through there with those, with these scientists, you're able to ask questions and get more information.
So you can, so on October 12th through the 14th, just coming up in Phoenix, Arizona.
Phoenix, Arizona.
The Phoenix Mega Conference.
You can go to, it's actually at the International Bible College and Seminary over with Tri-City Baptist there in Chandler, Arizona.
Great.
And you can go to the website, icr.org/slash events, and you will find the information there.
You can sign up for tickets right there on the website.
I was going to say, you wouldn't have any fossils.
I don't think you'd have.
I mean, fossils only form, you got to bury things fast and deep.
And the flood provides the best conditions for those.
Very few fossils form today.
Animals that die.
That's why we don't find dinosaurs after the flood because their carcasses rotted away.
So you don't find these things that went extinct.
They're just things today aren't being buried rapidly and deep.
So we do believe there are dinosaurs and humans living after the flood together, interacting.
You think the bread tar pits were before?
Well, we're going to go there.
Those are after those are ice age, I think.
Ice age.
So there's dinosaurs in there.
I don't think there is.
I don't think there is.
We're going to go check that out.
We're going to take it over there today or tomorrow.
I'm wrong.
I'm an idiot.
Oh, actually, have you been there before?
Actually, I went there and the gates were locked because I was with the oil company.
We had a class all day.
And I went over there.
I'm like, oh, I can't get in.
So I never actually have gotten in.
So we're going to try to get in there.
That's really cool.
It's a cool museum, but the pit, the tar pit itself, I'm always like, oh, it looks so liquid.
It looks like a swimming pool.
It's not thick.
It's part of that oil that was oozing up out of the ground.
And there are these big pits.
And I think during the ice age, you had some flooding from melting ice and stuff up in the Sierra.
You had some, you know, kind of a local flood different than the worldwide flood that washed these animals into these pits.
And so they didn't get stuck in the tar and do all this struggling away.
Like they tell you, they were actually the there's so many carnivores and stuff that got washed in.
It's just it doesn't make any sense.
Doesn't make sense.
Their story doesn't really make a lot of sense.
Yeah, all these animals were dumb enough to take a dip.
So you're going to go there with like a red pen and mark up all their displays?
I don't do that, but I do grimace sometimes and I read this.
I read the signs.
I'm like, because it's interesting.
And I know I'm getting off slightly off topic, but at the tar pits, they have like this elephant statue in there to show you, like, oh, look, it's stuck.
I'm like, well, how did you guys put that in there?
Like, some workers had to go in there.
They didn't get stuck.
What it's kind of a weird thing.
Yeah.
I saw that.
Even though I couldn't get through the gates, I got to see that little elephant stuck in the tar.
Well, you saw the best part.
How deep are those tar pits?
They have, yeah.
I'm trying to remember.
I did an article on them about 10 years ago, and they think they go down.
Not sure if they know how deep they go, but it's some of that oil coming up from the flood that found gaps or gases that opened up these kind of big pits, and they're very small openings at the top and so they almost had to be stuffed in there as the water went by.
But it's, I think they go down a few hundred feet, some of them maybe a little more well, maybe less.
I I yeah, they're just going to keep digging in there and finding other things.
Maybe they'll find a dinosaur.
But you know, I don't believe the story that they were actually digging away.
I don't think that.
Well, they could, but I doubt it.
If that was, if that was during the ice age and it was cold, you find all these animals that lived in cold.
Dinosaurs probably would have been further south at the time.
Maybe probably would have been further well, I don't know if they would land.
Bridges would have allowed them, who knows?
Um well, thank you so much, you guys for coming.
It's such a pleasure to have you.
Literally this was such an informative.
I thought it was really good.
That was so great.
It's it's hard to interrupt you to end the show.
That's okay, I know I want you to keep too much science.
Yeah, and we jumped around kind of like my wife says i'm Adhd, so it was good.
That's what my doctor says, I see, I think the most important thing is that you know everything we do, whether it's the continuous environmental tracking, where we're actually trying to get people to understand we should need, we need a paradigm shift of the way we think.
When we see an animal adapt, we don't think of mutation, natural selection.
We think how did God design them to adapt?
Right, and we want to.
Everything we do the conferences, the books, the dvds are all to glorify the lord.
We want people to know that Jesus is their creator, savior and coming king.
Right, there's no, we've done that, we've done our.
That's what you want.
There's no, there's no forces of nature, because you can't measure those.
That's why we tell jokes too, by the way.
That is the ultimate goal.
Well, I agree, humor.
Humor helps a lot.
I mean, we gotta you know, I think it's.
You know, we want Jesus to know, we want people to know that Jesus is king.
That's the reason.
Amen, amen to that.
That's that's why we told you we want people to.
Yeah, I agree.
Well, that was awesome.
Thank you guys.
So much uh, and we look forward to sitting down with you again some other time.
But this is amazing.
Thank you so much.
Well, thanks you guys cupping my books.
Oh, I would love you want to talk about it real quick.
Well, i've got a book that summarizes three continents where the data that came out a few years ago called Carved in stone, the geological evidence, The Worldwide Flood and uh, that's the one where an evolutionary author wrote a bunch of geology books.
Read it and you know he didn't find too much wrong with the data but he didn't like the interpretation type of thing.
But uh, you know he found a few little mistakes where we mislabeled a figure here and there, and he was very.
He was actually kind of helpful on a few things where we got a lot of people make that mistake, but that was good.
But that essay summarizes the data, summarizes the patterns that I started seeing and how it all started making sense.
You know, god gave me a little bit of wisdom to kind of pull it all together, the plate tectonics and the sediments.
You know they all kind of work together, more ocean crust, more flooding, and we see that progression.
That's what shows up on three continents, and so i've got all the data in that book.
Since then i've got two more continents done, including Europe and Asia, and I found out Asia was really big.
It took a long time to get to Asia, you know, continent by country by country, basin by basin, uplift by uplift.
Took me several years to get through Asia.
I've heard Asia is really big but and the names change of a lot of the countries of Europe and Asia both, since a lot of their geology was done, I was like this is tough, but anyway it's, it's all in there.
But even what I Later just reinforces that pattern, shifts things a little bit, but it's.
It all shows everything starts out minimal flooding of most of the continents, a little bit more, a little bit more.
It really shows a progressive flood.
If you read Genesis 7, that's exactly what you read: a progressive flood.
The water started flooding, it went higher, went exceedingly higher, went higher.
I'll have to reread that too.
In my mind, I've always imagined it as like instant because of movies and everything.
Well, even some creationists will say, I flooded everything right away.
I'm like, no, it didn't.
When you look at the rocks, the rocks show the record.
And that's what the mega sequences really do.
Wow.
They show like the chapters.
And we've been plotting them up and by rock type and everything else.
And then I have another book called Dinosaurs, Marvels of God's Design, which goes to a lot about the dinosaurs and how they fit on the ark and why there's only about 60 or 70 kinds of dinosaurs that was needed.
And they're probably juveniles.
And again, we did the math.
Actually, my colleague Jeff Tompkins and I did a big study of 350 dinosaurs and figured out the actual average weight is about the size of a bison of an adult.
But on the ark, that probably would have been smaller and more like a sheep-sized, you know, as an average size.
So he didn't need that many dinosaurs.
He didn't need that big of dinosaurs.
I think the big ones, just like humans, or might have been 700, 800 years old.
That's why they got so big.
They just kept growing.
And so humans were that old.
If you read the Bible, that's a fair point.
And so I think these animals were really, really big as well.
And so I talk about that.
And at the end, I was starting to do some of my research on the mega sequences, and I was able to tie in how the dinosaurs are buried only in certain areas in North America because that's where they lived.
They got washed down a little bit, but they, you know, mostly you find them in the American West, a little bit on the East Coast, but there's nothing in the Midwest.
It's all that was all probably shallow sea.
It's all marine fossils where I grew up in Michigan.
So just marine critters.
So it really helped explain why dinosaurs are only in certain areas of the world.
And by plugging up the data, the two books are: what's the title?