Sexpert Debra Soh Talks To Christian Prudes At The Babylon Bee
Sexpert Debra Soh joins awkward Christian prudes at The Babylon Bee to talk about sex, gender, and wokeness. Dr. Debra Soh is a sex neuroscientist, the author of The End of Gender and the host of The Debra Soh Podcast. She has appeared on The Megyn Kelly Show, Real Time with Bill Maher, the Joe Rogan Experience twice, and recently spoke at the Oxford Union. Kyle and Ethan find out how Gen-Z's views on sex are hurting their generation from Dr. Debra Soh. They go through Debra Soh's myths on gender that seem to all be created with this new generation. Dr. Soh gives tools for parents on how to talk about gender and sexual orientation with their children and schools. Kyle and Ethan get Dr. Soh's opinion on other hot button issues like what research has shown on growing up with Gay and Lesbian parents and the conversations scientists are being forbidden to talk about. Kyle and Ethan talk about purity culture and the effects it had on our culture. On The Subscriber Portion, Kyle and Ethan talk about Dave Chappelle's latest special. Dr. Soh goes on why this kind of activism will only lead to trouble for the Transgender community. Ethan shares his experience with furries. Dr. Soh shares what she learned about the furry community and her time learning about sexual fetishes.
Warning homeschoolers, Puritans, and those with sensitivity to certain topics of a sexual nature.
This podcast contains sexual references and themes throughout, usually in an academic, but always in a comedic sense.
Please be advised, and always remember, Jesus is watching.
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We're talking about sex today.
Whoa, okay.
Slow down, Kyle.
There might be kids in the car.
Hey, parents, if homeschool parents, if your homeschoolers are listening, might not be the episode for you.
If your kids still believe about the whole stork thing, let's just let it just warning you.
We're going to talk about the way babies are made a little bit and then gender and stuff.
And boys and girls, we're talking with a, we're going to say the word, just brace yourself, buck your seatbelts.
A sexpert.
That's an expert on sex.
It's the two words.
It's a compound word.
No, it's not.
It's a.
It's an invented word.
Yeah.
Mashed together.
So we're talking to Dr. Deborah So, a Canadian science columnist author and former academic sex researcher, according to Wikipedia.
She has a podcast called the Dr. Deborah So Podcast.
If you would like to hear her talk about all these things in more depth, and Deborah doesn't have an H.
It's D-E-B-R-A, but then So does have an H. She's the opposite of what I would think.
Yeah.
She's always keeping us guessing.
Yep.
Keeping us on our toes.
And she also classic Deborah.
A book called The End of Gender.
And it's not that she wants to end gender.
No.
She's saying that people are trying to end it.
So she's one of these people kind of like we had.
If you enjoyed the Abigail Schreier podcast we did, similar conversation talking about just all this trying to, you know, turn all the genders into one.
And they're trying to both turn it into one meaningless gender, but also a gazillion genders at the same time.
We're not clear.
She tries to help us clear that up.
Yeah.
We get into the myths.
We get into, we even talk about, I think one of the unique aspects, we talk about Christian purity culture with her a little bit.
And then also in the subscriber portion, we talked about she researched strange fetishes.
Like furries?
She mentioned some of them.
Furries and clowns and other stuff like that.
So it gets spicy.
It's a little spicy.
You got to be a subscriber for that stuff.
So here we go with Dr. Deborah So buckle your sex belts because we're going to talk procreation.
Nobody has a sex belt.
All right, Dr. Deborah So, here she is.
She's on the Babylon B podcast.
Yeah, this is happening.
We're here to talk about.
Hi, guys.
Hi.
Hi.
This could be the most awkward conversation you've ever had about sex and gender, considering we are.
I hope so.
I'm looking forward to it.
Heavily sexually repressed Christian men.
And we're going to power through this.
And if these topics make you uncomfortable, maybe just skip, I don't know.
Her?
No, no, people listening.
Oh, yeah.
She's probably very pretty comfortable.
Like, we had a guy recently email us because we had the word vagina in a joke.
Yeah.
And he said that the word vagina is pornography.
Your thoughts, Deborah?
Do you think that's the word?
You guys are going to probably be getting hundreds of emails after this conversation.
We thought about coming up with substitute words.
Did we ever settle on?
I know who is a good substitute for that one.
Hoo-hoo and porpoise?
The hoo-hoo and the porpoise?
I say cookie.
Cookie?
Cookie.
Okay.
I can go with cookie.
All right.
Joking aside, though, I will say one of the reasons why I will use words like vagina and penis is that I do think it's important for children, especially to feel that they can speak openly, name their body parts, that there's no shame around that.
And for adults, too, obviously.
And because especially in the case of a child, in terms of sexual health and protecting children, you know, heaven forbid anything is happening to them.
They feel comfortable to tell adults about what's going on with them and being able to talk about their body parts without any shame or embarrassment is an important part of that.
She said penis.
She's like, you're like that kid from kindergarten cop all grown up.
We have some young listeners here that are.
Have you guys ever seen kindergarten cop?
Yeah, they don't know what you're talking about.
Watch it.
It's a classic.
So you recently put out an article.
What's driving Gen Z's aversion to sex?
So is Gen Z the most puritanical generation yet?
I'm not actually sure.
I do think there's something interesting happening with that generation.
So that article I wrote for Newsweek, and we've been hearing about how Gen Z millennials are not having as much sex as previous generations.
So I did a deep dive into the research literature, trying to understand what is really going on.
I think it's a combination of things.
Probably the number one thing is when we're measuring sexual activity.
So when researchers ask about how much sex are you having, it's not, those questions don't typically pertain to online sexual activity.
So things like camming and sexting are more prevalent nowadays than in previous generations.
So that could be part of why we're not capturing.
It appears as though Gen Z is not as sexually active as previous generations.
But I also think it's partially this shift in terms of the majority of social interactions are happening online for this generation.
Most of their hangouts are with their friends online.
So it's different, but there's not as much of an emphasis on spending time in real life with people.
And then also that generation is moving out later in life.
So they're older when they're getting married.
They're spending more time with their parents as well.
I know there have been some concerns from other authors and researchers that this generation is being coddled.
But I do think that there are a number of factors.
So it's hard to say if they're really having less sex.
I do think in some cases, because people are moving out later, and especially we're seeing this gap for young men in terms of educational attainment and employment, that can be playing a role as well, which is making it more difficult for them to date and have partners.
But I do think it's an important topic to be talking about.
So they're not like going out and buying purity rings in droves.
I would have to check the numbers on that, but I don't think so.
Sad.
I was hopeful for Gen Z for a few minutes there.
What about committed relationships?
Are those also in decline?
Is marriage going down or what's the correlation there?
Well, people are marrying later.
And my sense is that cohabitation is more popular now, probably a little bit more socially acceptable as well.
So that does play a role because married people, contrary to what most people would expect, married people actually do have more sex than unmarried people.
And it would just intuitively also confirm.
Fist bump.
Well, we're not married, but yeah.
Married two women.
It was weird to fist bump over that.
I'm married to individual women that aren't the same woman.
I'm happy for you.
In case she doesn't know what religion we are.
And then also, obviously living at home makes it more difficult for people to be having sex.
Right.
Oh, living with their parents.
Their parents are there.
It's always awkward.
Put the sock on the door.
Eat the sock on the door.
You need put the sock on the door handle.
It means you know.
I didn't know that.
I thought that was more of like a fraternity thing.
I didn't know that people did that with their parents.
I don't think they do.
If your parents.
I've only seen it in movies, bro.
I went to a Christian college.
I've only seen that in movies.
You put the song of Solomon on the door.
So, yeah, I mean, I don't know how to expound into this too much.
Because there's this weird thing where, like, on one hand, you want, you know, kids not having a lot of sex.
You rather they kind of matured, but it feels like, well, we do.
We don't know if she wants kids not having sex.
Yeah, but I mean, you want them to mature, but it feels like it's the opposite that's happening.
They're maturing slower.
Well, so I would say definitely in terms of I definitely not kids.
I don't want kids having sex.
I think adults, consensual sex, go at it.
But I do think if this lack of sex is due to factors that are negative in someone's life or is holding them back, or in the case of if, say, people are choosing to go online to interact with partners virtually instead of having a real life in the flesh relationship, you have to wonder why is that?
Because a virtual relationship is never going to substitute the real thing.
And so if it's because of, say, social anxiety or because they don't feel that they're able to get a partner in real life or they don't feel attractive or they have low self-esteem, those are things that need to be talked about.
But I think as a sex pert, you know, I call myself a sex perturb in the end of gender.
I am.
Thank you.
My wife calls me that.
Fist bump.
Boom.
I do try to take a very pragmatic approach.
You know, I think if people want to be having tons of sex, that's great.
If someone is a little bit more traditional, you know, and they prefer to be more selective about whom they choose to engage with, then that's the right too.
We at the Babylon B want to clarify when she says, go at it.
You should be married first.
All right.
Well, so you put out a book, your latest book, The End of Gender.
You could have called it Gender's Game.
No, no.
Ender's Gender.
I don't know.
I feel like there was something there.
A mixture of words.
Gender player.
Gender ender.
I don't know.
That would have been a good one, yeah.
You debunked nine myths about sex and identity.
So we want to run down your myths.
Are you cool with us going down your myths?
All right.
Number one, biological sex is a spectrum myth.
Myth.
So where'd this idea get its start?
Have we, this is really popular now.
It's a spectrum.
Is this from Kinsey?
Where does it start?
So I want to say with the title for when people hear the end of gender, usually they think I'm referring to some sort of super far left extreme progressive idea that gender is not tethered to biology or that it's securely in self-identification.
And so that's not at all what I'm saying.
I'm saying when I chose that title, I was referring to this idea that we can't understand gender accurately anymore because of all the misinformation and science denial.
So this idea about biological sex being a spectrum.
My sense is it was coming from a place of activists wanting to advocate for intersex people, which I agree with.
I do think intersex people should have autonomy because there is a history of intersex babies.
So people who are intersex have a combination of male and female characteristics.
And historically, babies who were born with an intersex condition would sometimes be forced to undergo surgeries that they may not have wanted.
So I do think bodily autonomy is very important for these children.
But I don't think we have to pretend that sex is a spectrum in order to facilitate that.
It's part of a larger movement to basically rewrite anything that currently exists in our culture, to deny science.
So biological sex is determined by gametes, which are mature reproductive cells.
So you have eggs and you have sperm.
And there's nothing in between those two things.
So that's it's binary.
Binary.
Sounds hateful, not our word.
Yeah, sounds very hateful.
Well, and the weird thing too is like, you know, we on the right, and I know I don't think you identify as being on the right, but for us on the right, it's-I'm like old school liberal, yeah.
Old school liberal, yeah.
So for us on the right, it's like it feels like, you know, we have this thing where like 99.99% of people can agree with, you know, or are born with, you know, just being, you know, boys have a penis, girls have a vagina.
You know, and then you have this like a couple of people that have, you know, like you said, the intersex condition.
And we rewrite everything to accommodate that, you know, versus going, well, here's the normal.
And then, yeah, there's a few people that don't fit in.
So it's weird to me to rewrite the entire rule set for, you know, a small group.
And maybe that's kind of, maybe that's more where progressives approach it from.
Right.
I mean, I think it's good to be empathic, but in some cases, it, like you said, I think it just goes too far.
And I don't even know if that is about empathy at this point.
I really think it's about these activists having a very particular ideology and they just hate everything that currently exists.
So they're just trying to tear that down.
If it were the case that, say, biological sex were, or say, you know, another myth in the book is that gender is a spectrum.
So this idea that there are more than two genders, say the cultural norm or say science did show that there were hundreds of millions of genders.
These people would be then saying, well, there are only two.
They just want to turn things upside down for the sake of it.
Yeah, it feels like another way of saying gender or sex is whatever you want it to be, which is that seems to be at the root of the philosophy is you create your own truth.
Right.
That's a big philosophical.
You're a scientist, not a philosopher.
Yeah, and I think it's part of it is because these activists don't have any sort of scientific training, which I don't hold against anyone.
I think, you know, the only reason I know any of this is because this was what I studied in school and now this is my job.
So I don't hold that against anyone.
But it's there.
My sense is there's this willful ignorance and it's an intentional choice that they don't want to understand.
And then what you also have are some scientists who have gone on board with this and you see also scientific, this is the most disturbing thing when I see scientific and medical organizations going along with this stuff, because you would hope that someone would have the guts to stand up to the activists and say, no, this is where we draw the line.
We have empathy.
We can take into consideration these outliers and be compassionate, but we're not going to rewrite science in a way that's unscientific to suit your particular goals.
But that's exactly what's happening.
So I think the scientists who go along with it, they're doing it either because they are overly empathic or because they know it's going to help their career.
It's going to help them move forward.
Myth number two, gender is a social construct.
It seems like if you combine number one, that it's biological sex is a spectrum, then to combine that with this, that would seem to be saying that biological social constructs are a spectrum.
Right, it goes hand in hand.
Okay.
But if it's a social construct, then yeah, it's a spectrum, but then why is it even it's whatever, right?
At that point, it's whatever.
Science.
This one was, I feel, the original, the original myth that started all of everything that we're seeing.
This idea that gender, whether you're masculine or feminine is due to societal influence.
So I wrote about James DeMoore's Google memo when that happened.
That was three or four years ago, four years ago now, and I defended him publicly.
So I just want to say in my book, I have all the scientific studies cited.
So if your audience is interested in learning more about these subjects, they can read the book, read the individual studies.
I did write the book at a reading level.
I would say that teenagers could easily read it as well.
So if this is, this would be a good way to fight back, I think, in terms of the nonsense that is being taught in the education system, because I would get a lot of parents asking me about this and asking me for resources.
So gender is definitely not a social construct.
It's whether you are masculine or feminine is due to hormonal exposure in utero.
And so higher levels of testosterone are associated with more male typical behaviors.
So that's the case whether someone is male or female.
So if you have a little girl who is more male typical, she's probably exposed to high levels of testosterone.
So what is the line and the difference they try to draw between sex and gender?
Because I always get confused by that.
So my sense is some people will use the word gender across the board because they don't want to use the word sex.
So sometimes people will say gender when they're referring to sex.
So sex, as I mentioned, is biologically based, as is gender.
But gender refers more to someone's internal sense of how they feel about their biological sex.
So I understand some people are skeptical of this idea of gender because they say, well, this is just a feeling that you have.
What evidence do you have for this?
But I think it's more apparent in people who are gender dysphoric.
So these are people who are unhappy with their birth sex.
So they identify more as the opposite sex.
Gender is more so about its identity and then gender expression is related to that.
So gender expression is how you express your gender.
So whether you are masculine, feminine, in terms of your hair and your clothing.
So going back to your question, I think a lot of people use the word gender when they're referring to sex.
So when they talk about gender reveal parties, what they're actually referring to is a baby's sex.
But people don't want to use the word sex, so they say gender.
And then there are some people who...
I don't know if I would go to a sex reveal party.
Yeah, there's something about it that just doesn't.
But I think other people, activists, have really tried to separate these two things.
Even though 99% of people, their biological sex and their gender are the same thing.
Activists have tried to separate the two to really emphasize the fact that someone can be transgender.
So I do, I mean, I support the trans community.
I believe adults should be allowed to transition because research has shown that that can help them feel better from their gender dysphoria.
But I don't think we have to lie again.
And it's just not accurate to say that sex and gender are completely separate things.
And at the same time, they're not exactly the same either.
So how do you balance or how do they balance the idea?
Because you'll hear both of these are common slogans.
I was born this way.
And it's a social construct.
Can you have both?
Well, yeah, but that's like, well, that's one.
I mean, there's so many hypocritical points like that that just doesn't make any sense.
I have had some people say to me they think that force.
So some people will say that a trans person has the opposite sex brain in their body.
Other people will say that a trans person learned.
So someone who says born male and identifies as female learned what femininity is from the culture.
And that's why, but that still doesn't really make sense to me because why would they feel that way to begin with?
It doesn't make sense.
And I don't know how people manage to reconcile these ideas.
It's the same thing.
I'm very critical of children transitioning because from a research perspective, that's not what's best for these kids.
But some people will say, okay, a child who says that they are the opposite sex is that sex and they should be put down this path of transition.
But then also if you if there are children who are gender typical, then that's somehow not acceptable.
Or like you said, gender is a social construct.
So if you have a child who is gender typical, they should be taught to not be that way.
So if you have a little girl who's playing with dolls, she should be taught to play with trucks instead.
Okay, well, let's move on.
Myth number three.
There are more than two genders.
So we've kind of covered this a bit, but I mean, you know, I don't know what number we're at, but there's a large list of genders now.
Yeah.
I guess my main question on this is, what's the damage in saying that there are more than two genders?
Can't say that it feels good.
A lot of people are saying that.
I mean, to your question about how many there are, it was three and then five, and then I think it was like 72, and now it's millions or whatever you want it to be.
I mean, people can identify however they want.
I would say the harm is that usually there's something else going on beneath that choice to identify as a third gender or to say someone's gender fluid or to make up your own pronouns.
And if we're not talking about that, then that's doing a disservice to the individual.
So I think it depends, especially for young people, I would say teenagers who are figuring out who they are.
It's a little bit more understandable why they might gravitate toward different labels and try different things on, especially because gender is such a trendy thing right now.
I think it's different when it's someone who has a public platform who's deciding to come out as however they choose to identify, potentially might be for different reasons there.
But especially for young people, especially the ones who are identifying as non-binary, some of them are actually undergoing hormonal and surgical treatment.
They're getting double mastectomies.
And they're not being asked questions that should be asked of them to figure out why do they feel this way and why do they feel that identifying this way is going to make them feel better.
Because in a lot of cases, there are issues with, say, trauma.
Sometimes there's some psychological comorbidity that is not being treated and depression, anxiety.
It's also very normal, I would especially say, for girls, people born female, to hate their bodies after going through puberty because there's such a drastic change in terms of development of breasts and a more womanly shape.
A lot of young women don't like the attention that they get to their bodies as a result of puberty.
And no one is saying to them that this is something that is unfortunately very normal.
And, you know, you, it's not acceptable, but that's just part of the process of growing up and going through puberty.
Instead, they're saying, okay, if you want to surgically alter your body, we'll help you do that.
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I've seen a lot of the gender identities where, you know, they'll describe it like, I'm someone who likes to, who likes the opposite sex, but is scared to talk to them.
And so my gender is, you know, and they're like, and I'm like, well, that's just called being shy or like being a teenager, you know?
Yeah, I have a relative who I identified as asexual for a long time.
And then one day I found out she had a boyfriend and I go, I thought you were asexual.
And she goes, I found out I'm demi-romantic, asexual, which apparently means that if she has an emotional connection, then she can be sexual.
I was like, so you're a woman.
That's what I always say.
That's what I always say.
That you're a woman.
You can't say that's like a bad word for her.
She can't just say that.
Is that damaging?
Because I feel like that's the thing that drives me nuts is it's the.
It feels like it's a locking in of a vision of yourself identity, and I think that I do think that's dangerous, but I don't know how to put into words why it's dangerous to lock yourself into an identity.
Just yeah, your your point about not liking to use the word woman.
That I find very upsetting because I do think that's part of it.
I see a lot of young women who identify as non-binary because they say well, i'm not weak or no, they hate getting their periods.
So they say okay well, that means i'm not a woman, or they, even if they just like to do things that would be considered more stereotypically male, like sports.
Um, i've heard some people say, because they're good at math, they're not a woman.
I find that very offensive, and i'm not saying that because i'm Asian.
I had another one, but I won't be good at driving.
Well yeah, we won't talk about that.
When it comes to sports, i'm all woman.
But yeah, in terms of identity too, because you're, if you're still figuring out who you are, I would say it's one thing if, if someone goes through all of like a good assessment with a mental health professional and they determine that this is what's right for them.
I would feel a little bit less uneasy about it, but those questions are not being asked and there are all sorts of obstacles and laws Laws that are coming into place now that are really forbidding these conversations from happening.
I'm pitching a headline.
Oh, he got an idea.
All right, I'll take the next myth.
Sexual orientation and gender identify or identity.
Sorry, let me try that again.
Sexual orientation and gender identity are unrelated.
So, how much of who we are is wrapped up in our biology?
So, that chapter, yes, I talk about the biological correlates of sexual orientation.
And there's this, again, movement to say that gender is completely separate from sexual orientation, but they are very much linked.
And especially when it comes to transition for trans women, they have different reasons for wanting to transition based on whether they are attracted to men versus women.
So, I'm not sure how much of that I should go into.
But that's basically speaking to the fact that there are differences in terms of the ideology behind transitioning.
And again, I think my sense is it's so weird because in the past, activists would say, for myself, I'm very much in favor of gay rights.
And I would see activists in the past saying gay people were born this way, which the research does support.
And so, now what people are saying is sexual orientation is a choice, which is very odd to me because if it's a choice, then doesn't that not say that gay people should be able to choose differently for themselves?
Which I think whatever, again, whomever you're attracted to, that's your business.
I don't judge anybody, whatever they choose to, you know, whoever they want to be with.
But I just, it's very weird because it just doesn't, none of this ideology makes sense.
It's very contradictory, and it's not ultimately going to help people who are struggling.
So, say this push for transitioning, anyone nowadays who feels like they're questioning their gender is told that they should transition.
So, if we're not talking about the reason, the real reasons why it's not going to help them in the end.
Well, that takes us to number five, which is children with gender dysphoria should transition.
And it's kind of what you're talking about there a little bit, but obviously related with children, but like that as soon as they feel like they have any weirdness, like I'm not really comfortable in my body, you know, which is just growing up in my view.
And it's like immediately take them to the surgeon.
Yeah, up till I was like five or six, I own, oh no, eight.
I only liked girl cartoons.
Partly that was my mom shielding me from like He-Man and stuff.
It was when I discovered ninja turtles that I suddenly discovered I did have testicles.
But up until then, it was all my little pony and stuff.
But all my friends were girls.
Would I have gotten surgery if I was in the wrong environment?
Nowadays, who knows?
I mean, if you're a mom, the things I see and hear are very, very concerning.
And in some cases, you have kids who are even mildly gender atypical.
Like, in some cases, they may not even be, but it's the parents who are projecting their own politics or their own views on their kids.
I think in the best case scenario, it's a child who is gender non-conforming.
So maybe they like playing with the toys that are associated with the opposite sex.
And they experience a lot of distress at the fact that they aren't the opposite sex.
But from a research perspective, it's better to wait until these kids hit puberty and then decide whether that's something that they want to consider.
But what you see now is I've heard of kids as young as age three going to gender clinics and socially transitioning.
So they will basically take on a new name, be referred to as the opposite sex.
Or now what you also see is some kids decide, the kids don't decide to be non-binary.
The parents will say you can be non-binary.
And so there are children who are non-binary, which, again, it just blows my mind.
But This whole area is very upsetting because children don't know, right?
And it really should be the medical and psychological professionals who are asking these questions.
But you can't ask those questions anymore.
So I had a question.
I lost it.
That happens sometimes.
Were you saying so?
Deborah, so you've never heard that one before.
Never.
Yeah, I'm like thinking, you got something?
I have something that's gone.
Let's go out of myth.
Myth number one, yeah.
It's okay.
Myth number six: no difference exists between trans women and women who were born women.
Well, one difference exists.
The word trans is right there.
It's more syllables.
But other than that, do other differences exist?
I mean, you see people saying now that, and again, I fully support trans adults, but you see people saying that trans women are biologically female, which is just not accurately true.
And as you said, if they're transgender by virtue of being transgender, it means that there is some difference there.
I don't think that those differences should be used to justify discrimination against trans people.
I think that's a more important conversation to be having.
But what you'll see is, I mean, this extends to women's spaces, sports, prisons, even, language, as we see with words like bodies with vaginas.
Well, there's the word vagina again.
We are bleeping all instances, by the way.
I just don't think we have to do that in order to be respectful of trans people.
And I just want to say also to your audience, I'm not transgender, so I don't want to seem like I'm speaking for the trans community, but the most militant, aggressive activists that you see speaking very loudly about these topics and saying really ludicrous things, they do not represent most transgender people, everyday trans people.
A lot of trans people have reached out to me thanking me for my work and for my book, saying that they're horrified at the things that activists are asking for.
And in many cases, trans activists are not even transgender themselves.
In many case, cases, the allies have just decided to come on board to the cause.
So I would just really, I really tried to emphasize that, you know, when I speak about these issues, that I really think the activists are doing a disservice to the community because they are, I think most people would be, more people would be on board with trans rights if they didn't have these militant activists going around shouting down people, being extremely aggressive, having books like mine pulled from certain retailers, things like that.
It seems like a trans person would, a lot of them, they have a very definite idea of what the opposite sex is and they want to be that.
So it seems like the idea that there is no gender or that it's, you know, it's just all kind of made up, that kind of goes against that.
You know, like they're just like, I want to be a woman, but then a woman's not a real thing.
I don't know.
Right.
Or if there were no differences, why wouldn't someone be able to become female or male based simply on thinking it?
Why would they have to actually transition and undergo hormonal treatment and surgery?
So it doesn't.
It doesn't make sense.
Myth number seven, women should behave like men in sex and dating.
I don't understand this.
Yeah, who should explain what now?
I don't even know what a woman is because that's language.
And then like women have to be like, act like what?
Initiators and all that.
Yeah, well, I mean, there's different things.
I feel like I probably don't need to explain this to you guys in your audience, but definitely there's this trend for women to, there's this push for women to behave like men when it comes to, say, courtship.
So I was getting a lot of messages from young women who would say to me that they are engaging in casual sex.
They're trying to go about courtship and dating like men.
And they're not, they weren't happy.
And they said, I don't really, I don't understand why this isn't working.
And if you know anything about the scientific research or any understanding of male and female sexual behavior, or if you read the Bible.
Go on.
Well, as a scientist, I'll draw from the scientific research.
But yeah, I mean, I think just intuitively, people know that there are differences.
I mean, it's considered hateful to say that there are differences between men and women, or that men and women should behave in different ways when it comes to sex and dating.
I do understand why there's this push for equality in that way, because I don't think it's fair for women to be held to a different standard than men, say.
But I don't think it benefits women or men to lie and say, you guys are exactly the same and just you should.
I'm sure, again, for your audience, I probably don't have to explain this, but for women, evolutionary, evolutionarily, and also just from a biological perspective, pregnancy means that sex is a great investment.
So it makes sense why it would actually benefit women to be more selective in terms of their partners and to be less interested in casual sex and to also get attached to their partners after sex.
Whereas for men, that's not the case.
So for young women, again, I say if you want to have casual sex, that's your business.
But if you don't enjoy it, then that's okay too.
And you shouldn't feel like there's something wrong with you.
So that was really the purpose of that chapter.
But it also just speaks to, I think, the wider trend of this denial of there being sex differences.
And I think it's really harmful because then you have this weird.
My sense is in terms of, say, the Gen Z, in terms of their dating culture, just it's a complete mess because they don't understand why they're not happy and that having particular roles in dating isn't necessarily sexist or regressive.
Yeah, it seems like men are held to a lower standard.
And it seems like the proposed solution is that women should be held to the same low standard.
It'd be better to hold men to a higher standard, like the one in the Bible.
But if you're going to say men are really not needed and they're optional or whatever, they're not that important, then you kind of have to stick with it, I guess.
Can we bleep when she said evolutionary?
Yeah, evolution.
Evolutionarily.
Number eight.
Number eight.
Okay, number eight: gender-neutral parenting works.
So, what is the evidence for or against gender-neutral parenting?
That's like when you have a kid and you're like, you are a child.
You call them progeny.
Hello, child.
Hello, daughter.
You are my progeny.
Yeah, there are some parents who are doing that.
They won't refer to their kids as boys or girls.
Or again, they'll say that they're non-binary babies.
Thabies was a trendy years ago.
Yeah, so this ties in with the myth number two of gender being a social construct.
And basically, I think kids should be allowed to play with the toys they want, whether they're typical to their sex or more typical to the opposite sex, have the friends that they want.
I do feel there's a probably more so in progressive circles, there's this push for parents to really want their kids to be gender atypical.
So as I mentioned, if there's a little girl who is playing with dolls, they really frown on that and they want her to play with boys' toys.
And to some extent, though, they want their sons to be a little bit more, let's say less masculine.
So that chapter is really just speaking to the science behind why boys and girls tend to behave in certain ways.
And you, as a parent, it's good to obviously want the best for your kids, but you probably have less say than you think.
You know what the worst thing in the world is?
It's when you're laughing at something and really enjoying it and you're not paying any money for it.
That sucks.
You feel really guilty.
You're like, man, there's all these people that are like giving their lives to making this stuff.
And, you know, that's their whole job.
And I didn't even give them any money for it.
Now you can give us money.
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So like, so like, you know, because you have, I don't know, I'm just curious what the, if there's any research on this.
Like I know a lesbian couple that's having a kid and one of them is a very close friend of ours.
We love her and I know she's going to be an amazing mother.
But I can't help but wonder that kid's going to, the kid's going to figure out that like that it has a father out there.
And it feels like we have to just say like that you didn't, you never needed a father.
You never needed a male figure in your life.
And that's what rubs me wrong in that issue, you know, the idea that a father's that optional and that it just doesn't matter.
And so I guess my question is, is there any evidence for against that?
Or what's the, it feels more complicated than people, people make it really simple and they just go, it does, it's, it's great.
They're having a kid.
And there's some aspects which, yeah, like I said, she's going to be a great mother, but there's, there's a truth there that sperm came from some guy.
And I know that adopted children grow up with a feeling of like, who am I?
Who did I come from?
And are people not entitled to know that?
I don't know.
Yeah.
And I think I understand why there's a real reluctance to talk about that side of things because pardon?
Seems mean, right?
To even bring it up, right?
Right.
It can feel insensitive, I would say.
And I think also because to some extent, I think it's partially what activists have been pushing with a particular narrative, but also it, in some cases, what can you really do?
Although I would say, I mean, I do get a lot of questions from gay couples who are thinking of adopting or having children.
And they were saying, how can I have, say, for a gay male couple, how can I have a female figure in the child's life if there's no mother?
But I would say if that's a concern, you can definitely have other people in the child's life who may not be their biological parent, but can still be a positive role model for them.
There's definitely nothing stopping someone from doing that.
So I guess it really is up to the parents.
And as you said, you know, you don't want to be potentially insensitive or have them feel that they're being disrespected.
But if that is a concern, I think it's more important that there are loving adults who are raising that child.
And if you feel it's important to have, say, if you're a lesbian couple with to have a male influence or if you're a gay couple and have a female influence, I don't see why you can't have friends or other family members around.
All right.
Final myth.
Sexology and social justice make good bedfellows.
So shouldn't social justice just jump in bed with everyone?
Who's?
Uh.
You know it's a promiscuous movement.
What's wrong with them being part of stuff?
You always looked at me.
You always looked at me for support.
Like I just turn away.
I I do so.
I used to very much be in favor of social justice, but my issue is when they start to intimidate people who actually know what they're talking about and are given a given more attention and um more validity than people who actually know what they're talking about.
So that chapter is about cancel culture and academia and just how scientists, legitimate scientists and researchers who are trying to do good work and understand gender are having their work pulled.
They are being attacked and harassed.
Some cases, the activists really try to destroy not just their professional reputation, but also their personal reputation.
So this is really what has led us to where we are currently because a lot of people in the field are terrified to say anything that's going to upset the activists.
And so yeah, that's basically what that chapter is about.
All right.
Well, viewers, I never know what we're talking to.
Viewers, listeners, whatever.
Whatever you are.
Check out the book because this is pretty cool.
And she does.
That was in the whole book because she goes deeper in the book.
Deeper dive into the end of gender with all these myths.
Oh, yeah.
What's the most important myth?
The most dangerous myth?
Which is the greatest.
You can pick your favorite.
I don't know that there's one that's the most dangerous.
I would just say over.
It's like picking a favorite child.
You never, there's no answer to that.
I have a favorite.
I would just say overall for anyone who has been watching this madness unfold and is skeptical, because the biggest, I would say in terms of feedback I've gotten for the book, people say, I don't understand why people say you're hateful.
It's such a compassionate, reasonable book.
And a lot of people say like, I knew it.
I knew none of this stuff made sense, but they were telling me that the newest science is saying this.
So I was trying to go along with it.
You know, things like having to put your pronouns in your email signatures at work, having to accept these bizarre Z-Zero, however many there are.
And, you know, like this is affecting people in their day-to-day lives.
It doesn't matter where you work.
It doesn't matter what your hobbies are.
It's, it's really insane to me.
So just for anyone who is watching and or listening and who is skeptical, just know that you're not alone.
All right.
Well, hey, we want to talk about purity culture.
Do you want to talk about purity culture?
I do.
Promise rings.
Cool.
Because we knew.
Right?
I think they're into that.
The Jonas Brothers?
Yeah.
They have like promise rings or something like that.
I don't know.
That's not my.
I thought that was your generation.
Yeah, they weren't.
Jonas Brothers was a little past my time.
Okay, so Patrick notes.
I was like in sync backstreet boys.
Okay.
I mean, I wasn't into them, but that was the era.
That was the era.
Yeah, I was new kids on the block.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what, okay, so for one thing, you found yourself being embraced by conservatives just because, you know, you talk truthfully about gender and stuff.
And in that aspect, we're kind of in the same battle.
Have you had run-ins with the puritanical police or anything?
Or is anybody rejecting you or getting upset on the right?
I'm sure, well, one, I want to say, I want to thank you for having me on your show because I'm sure we don't agree about everything, but I appreciate that you were willing to still have me on and have the discussion.
I think that's very important.
Sorry, I appreciate that.
I would fist bump you through the screen.
My sense is that, I mean, I wrote in the book, I met a pastor at one of my events and he came and shook my hand and said, I never thought I would be shaking a sex columnist's hand.
Here I am.
And I think that really speaks to something.
It's very special, you know.
And I actually, when my book was reviewed by a Christian magazine this month and I posted on social media, I said, I never in a million years thought my work would be featured in a Christian magazine.
And I just appreciate that people on the right, religious people have been willing to give me a chance, even knowing that we don't agree about everything.
So, I mean, sure, there are things I've said that probably don't, that some people may not love, but I feel my role as a scientist is just to be as honest as possible about what the science shows.
And science, especially when it comes to human sexuality, is very considered controversial.
It's not science, even when you look outside of human sexuality, is not going to please everybody.
And if it is pleasing one side of the political aisle, that's not a true scientist because there's no way that would happen.
It's trying to understand human behavior, anything in the world is very complex and it's going to offend potentially a lot of people.
It doesn't matter what your particular values are.
So I just, you know, my goal with my work is to try and speak to people who are just open-minded and really want to understand what the truth is.
And then the application of the truth, that's a different question.
But it's more to me about, you know, allowing the truth to be found.
Saving sex till marriage.
Yay or nay.
So I respect anyone's personal decisions.
Me personally, and I'm not even saying this as someone who studied human sexuality or writes about human sexuality.
I just think from a very practical standpoint, you probably want to know what you're signing up for before you make a lifelong commitment.
So I understand, I mean, I have a lot of respect for marriage and for not monogamy.
I don't take those things lightly.
But I also think in some cases, and when I think of the people that I talked to when I used to do research, you'd have some people who were married for decades, but they were so unhappy in their sex life.
And they might really love their partner.
But if you are not sexually compatible, that love and that compromise can only go so far.
I think a lot of couples can make it work, but you probably want to, if you're not having premarital sex, which again, I respect anyone's decision, you probably want to at least be talking about it and what your expectations are in terms of how often you want to be.
I don't know how much trouble am I going to get you guys in.
How often you expect to be having sex or you'd like to be having sex, the kinds of sex you want to be having, because that's very important in terms of they never talked about what they actually wanted to do.
They just suddenly got in bed and just they thought that was going to happen once they got married.
And then the other one's like, I never want to do that.
Expand on that notion.
You know, like, I mean, there are people who are doing it.
Well, I mean, you can look up videos online of people who have never even kissed before getting married.
And it's a sight to be seen.
And I'm not trying to make fun of them, but I mean, that's if you've, if you, it's like anything, if you've never done it, and especially if you're trying to have, even for people who are, I would, I would say, sexually experienced, the first time they're with a new partner, it's going to be awkward.
It just, it just inevitably is.
And so you want to be prepared for that.
So I just think from a practical standpoint, you might want to know.
So, I mean, you've kind of already answered this, but you know, we tend to know what the issues people run into if they're sexually promiscuous.
But what are some issues that people run into that are very sexually conservative?
It doesn't get talked about much.
Let me see.
Besides that point of, say, getting into a marriage and not knowing what you're getting into.
I would say the shame that comes from even having sex within a monogamous, committed relationship or marriage.
I would talk to a lot of people who were married who did feel dirty after having sex or they would feel like it was just something that they should feel guilty about, which I don't think people should.
I don't think there's anything wrong.
I mean, it's a very beautiful thing, I think.
What else would I say?
Oh, I would say, okay.
I appreciate how open-minded you guys have been.
I would say the conversation about pornography, because maybe someone in your audience will have seen me talk about porn somewhere else and be upset with me.
I would just say with pornography, it's very natural for human beings to want to see other people or fantasize about other people.
That's just part of human sexuality, especially for men.
Men's sexual novelty and sexual variety are probably more common among men on average than women because I'll say the bad word again from an evolutionary perspective.
It makes sense.
Men are going to want to spread their seed.
So I'm just kidding.
So I think sometimes people can feel guilty about that.
They feel that if they're in a monogamous relationship or they're with one person with their partner, that they should only have eyes for that partner.
And I say how you feel and your nature and what you do are two different things.
So I think infidelity is wrong.
Cheating and blind to your partner is wrong.
But it's very natural to feel attracted to other people or to find other people attractive or to even want to potentially engage with other people.
But it's just, as long as you don't do it, that's okay.
I just, I think sometimes people can be very hard on themselves and they think if they're even having thoughts about other people, that that means they've done something really terrible, that they don't love their spouse.
And that's not true.
That's what Jesus said, though.
I'm going to Jesus juke, Dr. Deppra.
But I think, yeah, I mean, kind of what we talk about, the social justice stuff or the woke stuff, you know, is denying truths.
And I think that the cultural Christianity and many puritanical cultures have, they have their own guilt in denying truths.
Adding a huge heap of shame on top of sex makes really sets people up to fail, I think.
And I think that's a that's a that's a problem.
I mean, even the guy who says the word vagina is pornography, in his worldview, God made the vagina.
Like he literally like created it.
Yeah.
Right.
He thought of it.
God did.
Yeah.
I don't know what the concept art was like, but very curious what he ended up.
I don't know.
We're going to move into our subscriber lounge now where we're going to talk about some more stuff.
Yeah, we're going to dive into, we're going to talk, ask her about what she thought about the whole Dave Chappelle thing, misconceptions about sex on both sides, furries, furries.
We're going to get into furries.
And I will ask her about some of these non-gendered terms that are going around, like front hole and nibblings.
You ever heard of nibblings?
We're going to find out.
We're going to find out.
And then we're going to ask her the 10 questions.
And the 10 questions.
So let's do it.
Coming up next for Babylon B subscribers.
So, have you heard anything on this Dave Chappelle transgender joke?
I was amazed at what are some of the strangest paraphilias you've studied?
Furries.
Let's talk about furries.
Yeah.
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