Confessionalism, Satanism, And Cigars: The Joe Thorn Interview
Editor-in-chief Kyle Mann and creative director Ethan Nicolle talk with pastor and author Joe Thorn. Joe is the founding and Lead Pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St, Charles, IL, the author of several books (such as the Life of the Church, The Heart of the Church, and The Character of the Church), and co-host of the podcast, Doctrine and Devotion. Kyle and Ethan ask Joe tough questions in a round of Sin Or Not Sin, discuss his former Satanism, and talk cigars. Pre-order the new Babylon Bee Best-Of Coffee Table Book coming in 2020! Kyle and Ethan ask for pastoral advice in a round of Sin Or Not Sin: Vaping like a total cheesebag Throwing up the sign of the horns while listening to heavy metal Jazzercise Well-done steak Reading a Doug Wilson article Tattoo of John Piper's face Sprinkling a baby with water for some reason Following Beth Moore on Twitter Following John MacArthur on Twitter Reading Relevant Magazine Reading Pulpit & Pen Drinking IPAs when there's perfectly good bourbon nearby Topics discussed Thoughts on Reformed Theology and what the benefits may be of finding a church which subscribes to a historical confessional document Satanism Joe's openness about smoking cigars since he has written on Christians smoking cigars Joe's latest hot take: "I want my kids to stay away from Christian Twitter almost as much as pornography." Some of this interview is in our premium Babylon Bee Subscriber Lounge, so... Become a paid subscriber at https://babylonbee.com/plans
I just have to say that I object strenuously to your use of the word hilarious.
Hard-hitting questions.
What do you think about feminism?
Do you like it?
Taking you to the cutting edge of truth.
Yeah, well, Last Jedi is one of the worst movies ever made, and it was very clear that Ryan Johnson doesn't like Star Wars.
Kyle pulls no punches.
I want to ask how you're able to sleep at night.
Ethan brings bone-shattering common sense from the top rope.
If I may, how double dare you?
This is the Babylon B interview show.
Hello there.
Welcome to the Babylon B, a brand new interview show that we're doing.
Basically, by the way, this is Ethan.
That's Kyle.
Hi.
We are splitting our show up into a show that's more kind of the weekly news and kind of talking about topics.
And then our interviews are going to get their own show.
So what this means for you is we're going to be putting out two podcasts a week, generally, whenever we can get an interview for the week, but we'll always have our new show.
And so this is our first ever interview exclusive show.
And for this episode, we are bringing on Joe Thorne.
Kyle, who's Joe Thorne?
Joe Thorne is a pastor and a writer and a podcast host.
And I became familiar with him through his podcast and thought he'd be a good fit.
He's a guy who kind of always struck me as very thoughtful and very chill because a lot of pastors give their hot take on whatever, you know, politics and this and that.
And whenever there's a controversy on his podcast, he's always very, I don't know what's in the middle of the road, like riding the fence or anything, but he'll definitely give equal weight to both sides of the discussion and then kind of conclude with, so let's all just take it down a notch, everybody.
And you like him because he likes heavy metal and has a giant beard?
Yeah, and he's an interesting guy because if you saw him on the street, it would be like, is this guy a biker, like part of a biker gang?
Or, you know, he's got the tats and the beard and the.
And he's an ex-Satanist, so that's interesting.
Talk to him about that.
Yeah, so I thought he'd be a good fit for our very first interview show and the very first pastor we've ever had on the podcast.
So without further ado, let's bring on Joe Thor presenting an exclusive Babylon B interview.
All right, everyone.
We're sitting here digitally across the airwaves, separated by thousands of miles with Joe Thorne.
He's thousands of miles away.
How far is that?
Well, I assume I assume he's in Illinois.
Are you in Illinois, Joe?
Yeah, yeah.
I'm about, I don't know, 30 miles west of Chicago in a little town called St. Charles.
So probably thousands, probably close to a couple thousand miles away.
Okay.
So Joe Thorne is a pastor, the founding and lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois, author of many books.
I don't know if many is many the right word.
When do you get to call yourself the author of many books?
Well, I think you have to have seven, right?
Seven or more is probably many.
I'm only five and my books are super short.
They're like bathroom readers.
So I don't even know.
Like if you staple them all together or glued them all together, it might equal one book.
So I don't really qualify for the author of many books yet.
Oh, okay.
So author of several books.
Author of A Modest Stack of Bathroom Readers.
Yeah, a few bathroom readers.
That's a better way to say it.
And he also hosts, co-hosts a podcast called Doctrine and Devotion.
And writing cigars.
Smoking cars.
That thing is pretty sweet.
Doctrine and devotion is a pretty legit operation, I gotta say.
Yeah, well, you would say that.
Doctrine and Devotion is how I learned about Joe Thorne.
Okay.
So when we started a podcast, so we got to get Joe on at some point.
And here we are.
Thanks for having me, guys.
It's an honor.
I still don't know why you're having me on.
You have really interesting and smart people on, and now you're having me on.
So I don't know what it means, but I'm game to play.
Well, we just realized this morning we haven't had a single pastor on our show yet.
And we felt really bad about that.
So you're the first pastor we've had on, and we're like over 30 episodes in here.
So we've got to start.
That makes me doubly honored.
I think we're always scared that pastors are going to not be that interesting, but you have a giant beard and stuff.
So we feel a little safer with you.
Well, unfortunately, I trimmed my beard down really short to surprise my wife.
So I'm not very interesting these days.
Sounded like your voice was not, yeah, it definitely did.
And when I shaved my beard for my wife, I didn't shave it.
I trimmed it down to like a normal beard length.
And I walked downstairs.
I'm like, what's up, girl?
And she looks at me and she goes, eh.
Like, that was all I got.
It's like, totally, I totally screwed up.
I should not have touched it.
She's like, you should have left it long.
And I was like, you told me you don't like the beard.
You like it when I had no beard.
And she was like, no, no, I'm used to it.
So yeah, the lesson is don't trim your beard up.
Yeah, the beard is a scapegoat for wives.
When I was dating my wife, we were very adorable.
We did alphabetical dates.
So like for A, we went to an antique show.
B, we went bowling.
C, we just did a whole alphabet.
We actually worked it out to where, uh, where X was our wedding night and then we went for our, so you played the xylophone.
Yeah, we played the xylophone.
And then for our honeymoon, we went to Yosemite and Zion.
So we finished the alphabet with our honeymoon.
But anyway, the adorable thing was that for Jay, her name is Jessica.
So for our Jay one, she got to pick whatever she wanted.
It's just her dream date, whatever she, she just got to make the rules.
So for that one, she said I had to shave all my facial hair off because she had never seen me without any facial hair.
And the first thing she said when I walked out of the bathroom looking like a giant man baby, she's like, oh, grow back, grow back immediately.
Yeah.
They forget that beard hides the ugly and the chubby.
That's what they forget.
And I have both of that.
That's why I have my beard.
Yeah, it gives you a jawline of some kind.
And without a beard, you're just a blob of fat with eyes.
Well, not you specifically, Joe.
Yeah, me, I mean.
No, me.
Listen, before I had a beard, I looked like Caillou.
And it's like I looked like some sickly Canadian kid who's dying of cancer is what I looked like.
And no offense to Canadian kids.
Cancer.
Well, basically, all Canadian kids look sickly.
That's a fact.
But I'm just saying, I look like Caillou specifically.
It's that healthcare system.
This is premium.
It's premium up there.
All right, Joe.
So since you are the first pastor that we've had on, we wanted to, you know, as we live our Christian lives, we encounter tough decisions.
You know, we want to know.
So we have a list of things that we're curious if you think these are sin or not sin.
So we'd like to read these off to you.
We'll take turns reading them.
And then, yeah, you can just give us a couple of words or a yes, no, whatever you want to do.
Or if you feel really passionately that one of these things is sin, you can kind of do a Jonathan sermon for us.
If you want to do this and make it cute, you should do it in alphabetical order.
Oh, man.
I'm not smart enough.
Yeah, that's too much.
None of us can be as cute as Ethan and his wife.
Pathetical dates.
All right.
Sin or not sin, vaping like a total cheesebag.
Oh, man.
Yeah.
The cheese.
Here's the problem.
Here's the problem.
I bought a vape one time in a moment of like, I'm going to stop smoking cigars so I can get a cheaper health insurance, life insurance policy.
And I tried to do the vape thing, and I went back to smoking cigars right away and a higher premium because of the sinfulness of being a cheesy doofus vaping.
So I'm going to have to say that.
I had a similar experience.
I was like, you know what?
Maybe I could do something that, I don't know.
I don't know.
I figured I'd give it a try, but Manny, I felt like such a cheesebag, I couldn't do it.
I had to stop.
Yeah, I can't.
I felt like a 15-year-old e-boy.
I couldn't do it.
I just, I, you know, uh-uh.
I'll just take the, I'll take the bad breath and the shorter life.
I'm fine.
Definitely.
Okay, next one is throwing up the sign of the horns while listening to heavy metal.
Oh, no, that's righteousness right there.
That's not sin.
Are you kidding me?
You guys know you're talking to me, right?
Yeah, that's why we wanted to know.
So now we know we can.
I just got to make sure that, like, because I know, like, there are those guys, like the pee-pee boys and whatnot, like, those, those haters out there that like to make fun of me because I, or say that I'm wicked because I listen to heavy metal and whatnot.
Yeah, I'm not apologizing for listening to the best form of music that mankind has ever created.
So, yeah, metal horns, always good, if you're listening to metal.
Amy Grant, you can Google this.
There's a picture of Amy Grant throwing up metal horns at one of her concerts.
Oh, man.
But the discernment blogs had a field day settled.
That's a sin.
That's a sin.
That's not okay.
Amy Grant is one of the founding church fathers, so whatever she does.
That's what we should do.
But aren't the horns?
I mean, it's an anti.
It's the devil.
You're the devil with your hands.
All right, now listen.
If you, as a former Satanist, and as a, yeah, and as a person who has been deep into, listen, when I was six years old, I had kiss destroyer posters on my wall.
Like, I've been into like rock and rolling metal since my youngest of days.
I will tell you the origin of the metal horns and where they came from if you'd like.
But the shortest version is Ronnie James Dio is the one who made it popular, and he got it from his grandmother.
It had nothing to do with Satanism.
Yeah, it's like the evil eye.
She used it to ward off evil spirits.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, the old world, like, I'm going to throw a curse at you.
I saw Ronnie James Dio live twice the summer before he died.
Stomach cancer.
Yeah.
Sad.
That was worth eternity in hell.
Yeah!
All right.
All right.
Next one.
Jazzer size.
I don't know.
I don't know what that is.
Oh, is that that old John Travolta movie?
That little John Travis.
I thought that was another John Travolta movie.
Yeah, that's a sin.
It was like a fitness craze in the 80s.
Like churches were doing.
Maybe you were a Satanist at this time.
But there was churches that all did.
I was.
They would host Jazzercise.
You probably sacrificed some Jazzercisers while you were a son of a no, but just, yeah.
They're children.
But yeah, same thing.
No, yeah, no, they're like ladies.
All right.
How about a well-done steak?
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah, a well-done steak is definitely a sin.
Definitely, I mean, abomination.
I don't know.
A well-done steak is offensive culturally and theologically.
Yeah.
It's even offensive to the animal, I think.
Yeah, you know, give the animal some dignity in its best.
Let it taste good, at least.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that animal worked for that body, and you're just going to shrivel it up into a chunk of bark.
Yeah, man.
Animal provided you with all that fat and juice, and you want to wring it out and make it like leather is not good.
Yeah.
Are you guys the kind of people that will send steak back?
I'm too timid.
Yeah.
I don't send stuff back, but I will let them know.
I like to let people know what's up.
Like, hey, you know, I said, I'm rare.
This is definitely a solid medium.
Come on, I'm going to go ahead and eat it.
Just make sure your cooks back there are watching their toes.
Let's stand on their toes.
It's like a very passive-aggressive take.
I will lie and say it was amazing and didn't tip them and never let them know it was horrible.
Oh, wow.
Because I'm so low comfortable.
You know what I will send back?
See, like, so you, are you guys in California or something?
Yeah.
Could you tell?
Is that a sin?
Out here, talk about sin.
Out here in the Midwest, there's something called square-cut pizza.
And so instead of doing a pie-cut where each piece is a little triangle with the fat piece being the crust, they do square cut.
So it's all a bunch of squares.
Like tic-tac-toe.
Right, which is stupid, aggravating, and sinful.
And so I have to tell them when I order my pizza at one place, like, hey, pie cut.
Got to be pie cut.
I'll say it five times pie cut.
If they deliver that pizza and it's square cut, I go, take it back.
I don't want it.
I'm not paying for it.
Not going, nope.
Bring me a pie cut.
I can't do it.
So that is what I will send back to the square cut pizza.
You're like the kids that only want the sandwich sliced.
You know, triangular.
Yeah.
I like my pizza spiral cut.
I'm really specific.
Oh, you California people are so weird.
Yeah, our pizza is always served like on a brick or something.
They bring it out on this weird.
Yeah, they cook it in like a incinerator.
Anyway.
All right.
Next question.
Reading a Doug Wilson article.
Oh, goodness.
I don't know.
I don't think it qualifies as sin.
It's just sad.
I would say it's sad.
Wow.
I thought you could guys with beards stuck together.
No, he shaved his beard.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
He shaved it.
You know what?
We used to stick together until that thing called the Civil War.
And then there was a division of the beards.
That's true.
The division of the beards.
Which side are you saying you were on in Doug Wilson's on the Civil War?
Well, I think we know what side Doug Wilson's on.
That's rather obvious.
I mean, so yeah, I'm from up north, so, you know, I'm not part of the Confederacy.
I'm good.
Sad to hear the Union.
Sad to hear you sided with the bad guys on that one.
No.
Listen, our war of northern aggression was a necessity.
Let me just say it.
We had to do it.
Okay, up next.
Getting a tattoo of John Piper's face.
Not a sin.
No, definitely not a sin.
What if it's a tramp stamp?
What if it's a tramp stamp?
No, not a sin.
If you're using John Piper's face to encourage people's eyes to sin.
To wander.
Yes.
To wander in bad directions.
To my backstack?
There's not much danger.
Yeah, not much danger there.
Everyone's got their thing.
Yeah, I suppose.
I think if you're putting Noel Piper, that's a shit.
But John Piper, it's not a sin.
That's true.
That's actually interesting.
Like somebody's eyes are wandering where they shouldn't be, and then suddenly there's John Piper reaching out to them in their moment of sin.
That's good.
Yeah, John Piper is like giving as soon as you see that.
That might be the best antidote, right?
If we could somehow get them hackers to put John Piper imagery on various locations, billboards, internet, like sort of like pop-ups.
John Piper pops.
Oh.
Yeah, pop-up Piper.
Yeah, there's some money there, too.
I bet you can help people and make money.
I like that.
Well, if there's any hackers out there listening to the Babylon Bodcast, get on it.
Ethical, Christ-centered hackers.
Ethical hacking.
Every time you search for porn in your browser, a John Piper head pops up and then gives you some of that Christian hedonism wisdom.
I like this idea.
Yeah, it's called a pipe-up.
Starts ranting at you about a pipe-up.
You know, I met John Piper one time, and I was talking about my dad and how he was converted recently.
And I said he read your book, and he read Tim Killer's book, and he liked Tim Keller's more.
And I don't know why I told him, but I told John Marines.
Yeah, I told that to John Piper.
And which was weird because I liked John Piper.
I wasn't trying to dog him.
It just kind of, I don't know.
I was just trying to get in fact, I guess.
And he didn't, he smiled at me.
He's like, oh, that's nice.
And then I had a bunch of people yelling at me about it afterwards, like how rude it was.
I wasn't trying to do it.
Are you just starstruck and you didn't know what to say?
And these random facts are just spilling into your head.
Like, Tim Keller's book is better than yours.
I don't think I was starstruck.
I just think I don't have much of a filter.
So it just kind of things just kind of come out.
Just trying to get him to pipe down a little bit.
I'm sorry.
Literally.
Stop it with the Piper puns.
All right.
How about baptizing a baby?
Well, clearly, that's a sin.
Yeah, that's an easy one.
I could throw you a sock.
But listen, for the record, I love my Presbyterian brothers.
They are our smarter, more sophisticated siblings.
All love to our Presbyterian, Pato-Baptist, baby sprinklers.
No hate.
And I just, we just disagree on that.
I just want in case, because I don't know who listens to your podcast.
If they don't know who I am, they could think I'm really hating on them.
I'm not hating on my Presbyterian brothers.
Our audience is entirely made up of discernment bloggers that are getting ready to destroy you.
I'm going to have a week.
I can't wait.
Following Beth Moore on Twitter.
Well, if it's wrong, I don't want to be right.
Wait, hang on, I got to work that out of my head.
Well, I follow her on Twitter, so I don't know what to say.
just gotta admit you're in sin people are why do people freak out about that more so much I don't know.
You're the pastor.
I'm a complimentarian.
I agree with Danver's statement, if your listeners know what that is.
I don't know how dumb your listeners are, so I got to qualify everything.
What's that?
So, like, I'm good.
So I have too much in agreement with most of the complimentarians in them.
Paula Jay really seemed to be Jones and for some Beth Moore, and I don't know why they're so angry.
Yeah.
So she seems like a neat lady.
I don't know.
I don't know her.
I'm a Reformed Baptist, so my theology is very particular and very specific.
And we tend to be a little uptight about doctrine.
And so I see people like Beth Moore having some doctrinal issues I disagree with.
And I'm like, oh, I don't think that's a really good idea.
That's very safe.
I don't think she's a crazy heretic that needs to have a house drop on her or something.
I think she's just she seems like a nice lady.
That's all I'm going to say about that more.
Is that what you do with heretics?
You drop houses on them?
Well, the lady heretics, yes.
Yes.
The lady heretics.
All right.
How about following John MacArthur on Twitter?
I don't think I'm following him.
He's mean.
I do.
He's a little mean.
So, yeah, I don't think it's a sin.
Does John MacArthur have a Twitter?
That's actually unlikely.
I think he probably has one that his staff run.
John MacArthur one time wrote an article about these hipster Acts 29 churches that are trying to get people into their churches with beer.
And he actually linked to my church, the church that I pastor, in that article, which I'm sure he didn't write.
I doubt this book.
He's not going to Google search.
But anyway, he linked to it.
And ever since then, I'm like, man, I've been a fan for so long.
I don't know.
We're the most simple, boring church in the world.
I don't understand why I got targeted by him.
But yeah, I'm very grateful for John MacArthur.
I just feel like, yeah, he needs to chill.
That's all.
That's good advice for all of us, isn't it?
Just chill.
Yeah, I need to chill.
Maybe what about chilling out and reading relevant magazine?
Is that a sin?
Sin or not since?
Are they still in print?
Wow.
Savage.
Burn.
I didn't know.
I thought those went out when NUMA videos stopped being released.
NUMA video?
I don't know.
That was Rob Bell's thing, right?
I thought I was thinking Numan Newman.
Yes.
Not Newman Numa.
No, that's different.
That's not NUMA videos.
Rob Bell did these really hit videos where he talked about.
Didn't really say much, but he would like.
But the production quality was off the chart.
So attractive.
All right.
Reading Pulpit and Pen.
Sin or not sin?
Not good for you.
I'm going to say sin on that one.
And it's not just because they've done like three articles on me.
It just, yeah.
I don't think it's good for you.
I don't know how those guys manage, because, you know, we're doing some prep for this interview, and they always manage to get up in the top like two or three of the Google results whenever you Google somebody.
I don't know how, because I don't think that many people read these discernment blogs.
But they must use certain words that just come off to Google's algorithm as being controversial or interesting.
And so they always pop up.
Yeah, I was one of the first things.
You Google my name and Pulpit and Pen comes up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the first things I learned about you is that you're an angry elf.
Well, that's true.
First of all, I'm an angry dwarf.
Yeah, you're more of a dwarf, sure.
Elves are not that short.
Dwarves, I'm definitely.
Yeah.
All right.
Okay, so I try to own as much of the online presence as I can, but apparently I guess I'm getting associated with some haters.
Okay.
Oh, no, but yeah.
Yeah, I don't know if you're associated with them.
It's just them talking smack.
Yeah, they managed to get their anti-Joe, their hot take, hot take is up to it.
It's funny because I don't even know why it matters.
Yeah.
It's not like I'm a mega church pastor or I'm on TV or yeah, I don't know what that is flattering, right?
When people take time out of their day, they spend like an hour, an entire hour talking about you.
It's kind of flattering.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's sort of like when a gay guy hits at me at the restaurant.
Yeah, just like that.
Well, what I'm saying is, I'm not trying to what I'm saying is like I'm just saying, like, what I'm saying is, as an Orthodox Christian, as a Protestant, I think sex should be limited to a relationship between married men and women.
Sad.
But it's still flattering when a gay guy says, or at least implies that you're handsome.
I was like, oh, I can appreciate that.
That's a weird feeling.
I've had that happen.
Pulpit and Penn.
The sermon bloggers are like gay guys.
Just to be clear.
I want to be clear.
That's why you're saying by a gay guy.
We found the title of the episode.
Joe Thorne calls.
Pulpit and Pen.
Now they're going to have new fuel to throw on the Joe's phone pyre.
We've already talked about them too much.
We'd be able to get publicity.
Yeah.
Look him up now.
Final sin: drinking IPAs when there's perfectly good bourbon nearby.
Well, I'm definitely a bourbon guy.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
I would agree there.
That's a sin.
Bourbon over beer, it's better for you.
And it tastes better.
So, yeah.
What about drinking IPAs at all when there's like great scouts and porters around to drink?
I'm not a beer.
I like an IPA.
I like a stout, but I just don't really care.
Sad.
And if I'm honest, I'd probably rather just eat a loaf of bread because that's basically what I'm getting when I drink beer.
So I like, I'm super easy on beer.
Don't really care.
But in terms of spirits, yeah, a good bourbon.
That's my favorite whiskey.
So now all of our listeners know all the various sins and not sins.
So thank you, Joe Thorne, for our first pastoral advice that we've given on this podcast.
I'm glad to have been able to help out.
It's not every day, that a person is given the opportunity to call sin sin when the Bible doesn't do it.
I think we do get that opportunity every day.
Oh, I thought some of the sermon bloggers had the corner market on that, but okay.
All right.
So let's talk a little bit about doctrine and devotion.
And I don't mean the name of your podcast.
Oh.
Oh, it just got less interesting.
Yeah.
But what it actually stands for.
So I mean, you know, I think you're big on confessionalism.
I know you're big on confessionalism.
And, you know, you're a 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith guy.
So how does subscribing to a very specific theological statement like that?
I mean, how do you think that affects a Christian life?
Well, confessionalism specifically is helpful in a couple of ways.
On the one hand, it puts you within a stream of orthodoxy that is deeply historical and it shows your connection to not just your tribe, but other tribes.
So because I embraced the 1689 Second London Confession, not only does it connect me to Baptists throughout history, going back to the 17th century, but it also connects me to Presbyterians and Congregationalists because it's built upon the Westminster and the Savoy.
And so a confession can show the commonality that you have with other like-minded believers historically, and which is like, wow, we have a lot in common with our Presbyterian brothers and sisters.
Not everything.
So there's differences and distinctions without the kind of division that means we can't partner together in any way.
So I like that it brings about a sense of unity.
It helps to show us that we can have some pretty strong familial ties, even though we're, you know, we shared differences.
But then it's also, because there's a historical significance to it, there's a lot of resources around the creeds and the confessions that are very practical in nature.
So you will have sermons and what they would call expositions of those confessions and creeds, catechisms that you can resource.
There's a lot of material that's been put out there about those documents that you have access to.
And then finally, I would say that the emphasis, not for all of our history, but for much of the history of Reformed theology, there is an emphasis on experimental Calvinism or experiential theology.
And you'll find that not just in the sermons, but also in many of the treatises that have come through some of our more prolific writers, because the desire was for these theological truths not to just be comprehended and articulated, but to be believed, received, experienced, and put to use.
They were really big on uses of doctrines.
And so those are probably three reasons I would say that there's a lot of help that comes from people that embrace a confession or a creed.
And what's the difference between something like the 1689 and the megachurch down the street that throws up a statement of faith?
Well, the main difference is that a confession like the Westminster or the 1689 was put together by a team of the most brilliant theologians of their day.
And the mega church had their doctrinal statement written by a bunch of guys that got PAs from Bible colleges.
And so not really the same thing, right?
It's like I could write a statement of faith, but I'm not going to do the same kind of work as the best theologians of a generation who are working together to put together the clearest and most comprehensive and useful document.
So in other words, it's not going to be as helpful.
It's not going to be as accurate.
Plus, it disconnects you from it I guess it creates more distance between you and the rest of the church and church history than using a confession would.
Plus, why are you so unique?
You're so unique in your own peculiar, weird theology that you just can't find some historic document that you can stand behind.
There isn't one out there.
Your theology is that weird and unique.
I don't buy it.
Yes.
Yes, I am that unique.
Thank you for asking.
Okay, I guess I have to buy it.
I'd like to shift gears here and ask Satanism.
Why'd you leave it?
Well, it wasn't giving me my best life now.
That's for sure.
I can tell you that.
No, look, man, when I was a little kid asking all kinds of questions.
Why are we here?
What's the point in life?
Why is there suffering?
And I didn't get any answers.
My family didn't go to church.
I'd never been to church.
There was no God in the picture or nothing like that.
Plus, I was a little kid with a real smart mouth.
And so I got beat up a lot.
And so I was the kid who would, like, I could make fun of you and burn you good, but then you'd beat me up.
And then I'd be walking back home.
And once I got a block away, I'd yell and you'd look back and then I'd flip you the finger and run off.
And the next day, you'd beat me up again because I did that.
So that was the little kid that I was.
And I eventually got tired of getting picked on and not having what I wanted.
You know, I wanted to be a certain way.
There were certain things I wanted in life.
And I began to look into witchcraft and then the occult.
And then I got into Satanism through Anton LeVay's brand of Satanism.
He wrote the Satanic Bible.
And then from that more of an atheistic brand of Satanism, I got into theistic Satanism.
And so this is all going on in the 80s.
And what I found was that I got all the stuff that I wanted, right?
Oh, I finally started getting girlfriends and I got a certain reputation.
And even though I didn't play up the Satan angle, like nobody would say, like, Joe's obviously a Satanist, I was getting all the stuff that I wanted.
I started to get friends and a group of guys that respected me.
And nobody picked on me anymore.
I learned how to fight and all this stuff.
So it really felt as if the devil was giving me what I wanted.
And around this time, I introduced a friend of mine who was having similar struggles as I was having a couple of years earlier.
And so I introduced him to Satanism, and he started to go down this path.
Now, what happened to him, the short story that some people are going to find hard to believe, is that he began to experience demonic oppression and even possession that I had seen, that other people had seen.
He was a tortured soul that was miserable.
And the last time I saw him, I was holding him in my arms after this crazy event.
And he was literally crying in my arms in front of other people, saying that he's a slave and he wants to be set free.
Just, you know, he's cursed.
And then he died in a car wreck.
We were both, I guess, 17 years old.
So when that happened, I felt really guilty about getting him into that stuff and what it had done to his life.
It had really messed up his life.
And I began to question the things that I was asking earlier, right?
What's the purpose in life?
Why am I here?
Because while I was getting worldly satisfaction, I wasn't getting any answers to my bigger questions.
And so as I began to wrestle with my guilt and my discouragement over Satanism and the impact that it had on another friend's life, I began to pull away from that.
And that was around the time I heard the gospel for the first time when I was a senior in high school.
Yeah, I ever had friends who were like dabbling in Satanism when I was in high school.
It was all very appealing.
It had some kind of good marketing because it was kind of all the stuff a teenager would be like, yeah, why isn't religion like this?
No, and like the Levian brand of Satanism is just basically pure American religion is really what it is.
It's just got the cool vibe.
Because all it is, is, hey, live for yourself.
You're your own God.
Indulge the flesh.
Don't listen to anybody.
Don't take crap off of anybody.
I mean, that's all that it is.
There is no God.
There is no devil.
There's just you.
So live your best life now.
Like, that's really what it was.
And so it is.
It's very appealing because I get to put myself first.
But it's filled with inconsistencies.
It's just as hypocritical as any worldly form of Christianity that isn't biblical.
It's a goof, but it is appealing, especially to the younger kids.
Yeah.
And this guy's shock factor.
I had a random Anton LeVay story as a girl that I dated in high school.
Her dad used to walk Anton LeVay's daughter to school in the morning.
They're a neighbor.
Wow.
He said he had like, I don't know.
I can't remember it's like an albino lion or something.
He had some kind of pets anyway.
Side story.
So you've been in California this whole time then?
No, he lived in California and he lived, I knew him in Oregon, where I'm from.
Where?
But he lived, he lived, he grew up in California, but he lives now in Oregon, which is where I'm from.
And that's where I heard this story.
He found us through the Jesus movement.
Oh, that's great.
Where can people learn more about Joe Thorne and all your bathroom readers?
All right.
So the most important thing that would probably benefit anybody who's interested in the ramblings, doctrineandevotion.com is where you go find our podcast.
That's Jimmy Fowler and I, two of the pastors here at Redeemer Fellowship.
We talk theology and we bus chops and laugh.
It's a good time.
Episodes come out every Monday and Thursday.
So lots of content and think you might enjoy it.
So head on over there.
I'm on Twitter at Joe, basically on Joe Thorne.
At Joe Thorne, you'll find me Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all that stuff.
But I don't really care about this.
Instagram me.
I'm on Instagram.
I'm more likely to engage them.
Find Joe on TikTok.
I don't post anything on TikTok.
I just like watch.
Beard growth time-lapse videos.
Beard growth time-lapse.
Or beard cutting videos.
We want to see it.
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