Babylon Bee - Episode 30: How To Own Atheists With Greg Koukl

Dec. 30, 2019 - Babylon Bee

01:46:01

Episode 30: How To Own Atheists With Greg Koukl

In the thirtieth episode of The Babylon Bee podcast, editor-in-chief Kyle Mann and creative director Ethan Nicolle get ready to say goodbye to 2019 and ring in the new year with a rock-star apologist: Greg Koukl. He's an accomplished author, speaker, radio host, founder and president of Stand To Reason, an adjunct professor at BIOLA, and he guarantees he can convince anyone to become a Christian in three minutes or less. Well maybe that last part was a bit of an exaggeration, but Greg believes that when Christianity and its values are clearly articulated they can "stand to reason" in the public square. They discuss apologetics fails, how to bring your faith into a conversation without being totally awkward, and what the goal of apologetics really should be. Greg Koukl's 10th anniversary edition of Tactics: A Game Plan For Discussing Your Christian Convictions is available now. Pre-order the new Babylon Bee Best-Of Coffee Table Book coming in 2020! Show Outline Introduction - Kyle and Ethan open up some bubbly sparkling water to ring in the new year, discuss the Babylon Bee's top ten stories of 2019, and make bold predictions for 2020. Top 10 Bee Stories of the Year 10 - Bernie Sanders Arrives In Hong Kong To Lecture Protesters On How Good They Have It Under Communism 9 - In Genius Move, Trump Supports Impeachment, Forcing Democrats To Oppose 8 - Disney CEO: 'To Avoid Filming Among Depraved, Immoral People, We Are Moving All Our Georgia Operations Back To Hollywood' 7 - Portland Police: 'We Wish There Were Some Kind Of Organized, Armed Force That Could Fight Back Against Antifa' 6 - Ocasio-Cortez Appears On 'The Price Is Right,' Guesses Everything Is Free 5 - Walmart Discontinues Auto Part Sales To Prevent Car Accidents 4 - Georgia Lawmaker Claims Chick-Fil-A Employee Told Her To Go Back To Her Country, Later Clarifies He Actually Said 'My Pleasure' 3 - Husband Daycare Now Available At All Hobby Lobby Locations 2 - Ilhan Omar Withdraws Support From Bill To Save The Earth After Learning That's Where Israel Is 1 - Motorcyclist Who Identifies As Bicyclist Sets Cycling World Record Predictions for 2020 Interview - Greg Koukl Kyle and Ethan discuss with Greg the Babylon Bee's 10 Arguments For Christianity That Are Guaranteed Mic Drops and get into some listener submitted questions for Greg. Topics Discussed How did Greg end up becoming an apologetics guy? How do you start a conversation about God without coming off like a total tool? What do you do when Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses come to your door? At what point is it a sin not to share the gospel with a stranger? What do you wish Christians would shut up about? What are the WORST arguments you hear from your own side? Hate Mail - We get podcast reviews. Also, this story has been passed around as being real and the comments are interesting: Trump: 'I Have Done More For Christianity Than Jesus' Paid-subscriber portion - The interview with Greg Koukl continues and he takes some questions submitted by Babylon Bee readers. "Can people of other religions that don't know Christ or are so devout to their own way they never even allow themselves to hear and choose Him be saved by the grace of God?" -Jonathan "Why doesn't God reveal himself in undeniable ways like he did in the Bible? Why does it seem that as mankind's ability to test and verify supernatural claims goes up, supernatural occurrences go down?" -Daniel "I've always wondered if there was a rebellion in God's pre-human heaven, what would prevent the possibility of another rebellion in eternity?" -Michael Become a paid subscriber at https://babylonbee.com/plans
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Time	Text
	In a world of fake news, this is news you can trust.
	They say truth.
	We say, okay, boomer.
	You're listening to the Babylon B with your hosts, Kyle Mann and Ethan Nicole.
	We're sitting here with our bottle of Martinelli's and our flutes.
	Bringing in the new year.
	They're bringing in the new year.
	Martinelli's and LaCroix.
	I was trying to the other one.
	What's the other bubbly water?
	I've lost it.
	You remember I can't remember names?
	Perrier.
	It's way more fancy than it needs to be.
	Yeah, it's water with bubbles in it.
	It has like salt in it, though.
	I think that's the definition of that in La Croix, La Croix.
	They all have fancy names.
	La Croix is just water.
	There should be a redneck brand.
	A redneck brand of sparkling water.
	Called like Hey Joe?
	Joe's or something.
	Joe's bubble.
	Bubbly Creek.
	Joe's Creek.
	Creek of bubbles or something.
	I don't know.
	Joe's Muddy Creek.
	Or a manly sounding one.
	No, Crick.
	You guys are like, Joe's Muddy Creek water.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So we're bringing in the new year.
	Today is actually New Year's Day that we are recording.
	It is, right?
	I've been on vacation.
	We're recording on New Year's Eve, but nobody needs to know that.
	Yeah, but they do.
	As far as they know, it's the new year right now.
	Yeah, but that's what we are celebrating is the New Year's.
	Yeah.
	So it doesn't matter that it's New Year's Eve.
	It does matter because that's the festive.
	This is our last recording of 2019, the year that the Babylon Bee podcast was invented.
	Yeah, this matters very, very much.
	Yeah, I've been on vacation for like a week and a half, so I've lost all track of time.
	I have no idea what's going on.
	Yeah, I've been in and out of working.
	Once you've been on, like, I don't know.
	I start almost wanting to work after I've been at home with the whole family all day, every day.
	Yes.
	I need to go hide in my office.
	It is hard.
	There's like this natural drive to.
	And by office, I mean cigar shop.
	Yeah, that is your office.
	I walked into the office today, and there's like this cloud of something.
	And I'm like, what?
	It's just Ethan's natural odor.
	He wasn't smoking in the office, just to be clear.
	It's just, you know, it's just a natural.
	It's like what's the pig pen with the cloud of dirt around it?
	It's cigar smoke.
	So we're ringing in the new year, and we have a very special show planned for you today where we're going to count down the top Babylon B articles of the year.
	And we have a huge interview with Greg Kochl, who is one of those mic drop master atheist devastating apologetics kung fu black belts.
	Owned.
	And that's what he does.
	That's what he does.
	Yeah, that was a very interesting conversation, obviously.
	Yeah, it was great.
	It was very long in a good way.
	Beefy.
	Yeah, I was a little intimidated going in.
	Like, you talk to a guy who's studied and debated amazing minds.
	But I think we did a good job, and we convinced him to become an atheist.
	Yeah, we broke him down.
	So we also have our predictions for 2020 that we're going to read.
	So if you want to know what's going to go on 2020, you want to put the smart money on something, you want to go gamble in Vegas or whatever, listen to this episode because we're going to give you all the information.
	It's better than going back in time and stealing a sports almanac.
	All right.
	I'm ready.
	Are you ready?
	I'm ready.
	Okay.
	Every year there are stories.
	These are 10 of them.
	So these are the top 10 in terms of traffic.
	We're going to count them down backwards.
	So let's take turns, I guess.
	All right.
	Number 10, Bernie Sanders arrives in Hong Kong to lecture protesters on how good they have it under communism.
	This was right when the Hong Kong protests were going.
	I think they're still going on.
	But when that was kind of flaring up in the news, that was a big story this year.
	Hong Kong.
	Yeah.
	Democracy.
	I still don't understand all the ins and outs of that.
	Me either.
	But I know that it's Hong Kong.
	And it's weird.
	When I was trying to write articles about Hong Kong, it's weird because they're not really part of China, but they kind of are.
	Yeah, I think that's part of the.
	I have no idea.
	I have no authority to speak on this.
	Beijing gives them some autonomy.
	So they're kind of their own thing.
	Which is why it was weird.
	It's like, why are there even protests?
	Wouldn't they just run them over with tanks?
	That's what China does, right?
	But it's like they're a little bit of their own thing.
	Yeah.
	I got nothing.
	I have nothing interesting or serious to say on this.
	I have a friend that's going to be a little bit more.
	Well, just make some puns then.
	Make some China puns for us.
	No, everything I could say would probably be racist.
	You just have to be careful.
	I'm scared.
	I don't know how to say anything.
	Oh, my turn, my turn.
	Ingenious move.
	Number nine.
	Ingenious move.
	Trump supports impeachment, forcing Democrats to oppose.
	Absolute classic.
	This was a reader idea, I think.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	One of the sad things for me is looking over this list.
	Not a single one of my stories made it in the top 10.
	You know, you had a few that were real close, and you might have had one that was on here, but I had to pull it off because it was.
	I was just swearing.
	No, I think it was like a 2018 article that just started to get reshared or something.
	So I actually had the number one.
	Yeah, you were actually the whole top 10, and I wanted to make sure it was.
	Yeah, you had to delete me off here.
	No, my ego is already too big.
	Yeah, see, how many of these Photoshops did you?
	Apparently I shouldn't say that.
	Only one.
	I checked that too.
	Hold on.
	One.
	Just one.
	Yeah, I guess you.
	I was trying to make you feel better.
	I'm the niche article writer.
	Yeah.
	And the thing is that these are all articles.
	Most of these are articles that people share because it was a big current event.
	Yeah, it was a big current event.
	And I never do the big current events.
	You don't even know what's happening.
	That's your bread and butter, yeah.
	That's you.
	Do you know that there's a presidential election coming up next year?
	I always figure there's one coming up sometime.
	Like I said, you know, when we went over to Ethan's house, he was just living in the 1940s.
	I wonder how Eisenhower's doing.
	I'll have you know, I was playing Red Dead Redemption 2 this morning on my TV.
	So proud of you.
	How far into it are you?
	Do you know how many hours you've vlogged?
	I have not.
	I don't know.
	I haven't looked at that.
	But the funny thing is my daughter has decided she loves watching me play that game, which it's not completely appropriate for children.
	But she's like, play the cowboy games.
	I'm like, okay, she wants me to do it.
	I guess I'll have to play it.
	How old is your daughter again?
	Five.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	My three-year-old likes to sit on my lap.
	I've been playing.
	Every Christmas vacation, I basically pick like a video game.
	I'm like, I am going to play through this because I never get to.
	I play some video games, but I don't get to beat them.
	So I'm playing through Star Wars, Jedi, Fallen Order, and my son sits on my lap.
	And you're like cutting people in half with your lightsaber.
	So he's going around the house like, I'm going to kill you.
	And as I'm like, uh, you know.
	Yeah, they were like, shoot that guy.
	I'm like, no, no, no, that's, he's a good guy.
	We got to wait till the bad guys come, then I'll shoot them.
	So I say, no, you don't say kill, you say, get.
	I'm going to get you.
	I'm going to get you.
	All right.
	Number eight.
	All right.
	You.
	Disney CEO.
	To avoid filming among depraved, immoral people, we are moving all our Georgia operations back to Hollywood.
	And that was in the context of what?
	Abortion issues?
	No, Gary.
	Disney and other movie studios were saying that they were going to move out of Georgia due to the heartbeat bill, if I remember.
	I heard abortion.
	So it was an abortion thing, yeah.
	Immorality.
	It is funny.
	I love when you tell the jokes.
	That's funny.
	That is humorous.
	Humor detected.
	Laugh procedure initiated.
	Ha, ha, ha.
	Portland police.
	Oh, number seven.
	See, I'm not good at doing the numbers.
	Portland police.
	We wish there were some kind of organized armed force that could fight back against Antifa.
	If only.
	If only.
	You know that the.
	What the heck is the name of the police chief of Portland?
	It's like Outlaw or something.
	I have no idea.
	Her name's like Lawless or Outlaw or something.
	Oh, really?
	That's like her real name.
	I'm Googling it to write this article.
	Outlaw.
	Yeah.
	I love when people have those names that line up with their job.
	I had an editor back when I was working on comics and her last name was Editon.
	Edited?
	Yeah.
	Her name was Editon and just editor.
	Well, that's good.
	Portland was a good source of humor this year, I think.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, Antifa.
	The people have spoken more Portland humor in the coming year.
	All right, I will read the number and then I will read the headline because unlike Ethan, I am good at the numbers.
	I'm good at the numbers.
	I liked how you said that.
	You said, I am not good at the numbers.
	Okay, number six.
	Ocasio-Cortez appears on the price is right.
	Guesses everything is free.
	Classic.
	This one went bananas.
	Yeah, banana, lama, ding-dong.
	And this is a big Snopes one, too.
	Got snoped?
	Yeah, well, actually, let me look back and see how many.
	Because of the Photoshop, that was so confusing to them because I switched the random faces of the women.
	They were like, why did you do that?
	I was hoping nobody even noticed.
	Yeah, for a refresher for everybody, it was really funny.
	Snopes contacted us and started asking, like, grilling Ethan on how he did the Photoshop.
	Or why.
	They thought there's a deeper reason.
	Because you move the heads around or something.
	Yeah, for something like that, you use a screenshot from a TV show.
	I'm always kind of not quite sure what the legality of that is.
	So just to kind of cover bases, in case somebody would be like, that's my face on that, you know, that's me.
	I didn't want to be in this article or whatever.
	I just, I took a face off a different contestant and put it on this woman's body.
	So it was just like kind of a person that doesn't exist.
	It's just a weird thing.
	I try to do it seamlessly enough that you can't really tell unless you know, right?
	But so I just figured nobody would notice or say anything.
	I didn't tell you guys I did.
	I just did it as a way, you know.
	Yeah, the only people who would notice would be the people in the shot.
	So that was just to avoid that because, you know, just more out of respect, you know, like if the person shows up in the picture and they're like, hey, I love AOC.
	I don't want to be in this on your propaganda website with your jokes.
	And I'm a nice guy.
	So anyway.
	Suddenly Snopes is emailing us.
	And this is I had just come on staff too.
	Oh, yeah.
	I thought I was like a child.
	You're in trouble.
	Seth's talking to us.
	Like, why did you do that?
	Why'd you move these heads around?
	And we're trying to explain it to him.
	I think we got on the phone with him.
	He might have been overdoing it.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, I mean, it was.
	I don't know why Snopes was going so crazy about that.
	I mean, I understand why they fact-checked it, but it was funny that they were like.
	Yeah.
	And then they even put it together.
	I thought we were up to something.
	They put together a gif that showed the original shot from the show and like transitioned into your show.
	That's my whole goal to protect the people's identities and just make them leave them out of the, leave them out of our joke.
	Snopes took it away and like now they're up there.
	Thanks, Snopes.
	Thank you, Snopes.
	This was the year of Snopes, man.
	All right.
	So that one was Snoped.
	I don't remember if any of these others are snoped.
	The Disney CEO one might have been Snoped.
	I don't remember.
	Okay, number five.
	Oh, you do.
	You're number five.
	I'm not good with the numbers.
	Number five.
	Walmart discontinues auto part sales to prevent car accidents.
	I just feel like weird about trying to comment right after we tell one of our own jokes.
	You see what the joke is there?
	Yeah.
	This is like a bad stand-up act or something.
	I guess I say.
	You see, because all those guns and stuff.
	Like the joke is over and you just keep talking.
	It's like, oh, stop talking.
	We could.
	I mean, it's a context in case people forgot Walmart.
	Yeah, let's give the current event context.
	Stop selling Air 15s or something?
	What'd they do?
	Oh, they stopped selling guns or no, they didn't stop selling guns altogether, right?
	They stopped selling ammo, if I remember right.
	That's weird.
	Even in states where it was legal, so it was like their own voluntary, which is fine.
	That's what they want to do.
	They can do what they want.
	And that was after there were a couple of shootings in Walmarts, if I remember right.
	Okay.
	So, you know, shooting's a perpetual source of humor.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Walmart.
	This Cathy is automatically.
	Hilarious.
	Oh, the other thing I was going to say is your article on The Wife Not Knowing About the Movies.
	Oh, yeah.
	I think it was really close to this list, and it might now be on the list because we repost the best articles of the year.
	So, anyway.
	So, we can give you an honorable mention.
	Let's do that at the end.
	Okay, we'll do honorable mention.
	I guess we can give our favorite articles, but I haven't thought about it.
	Okay.
	Number four.
	Georgia Lawmaker claims Chick-fil-A.
	Employee told her to go back to her country.
	Later clarifies he actually said, my pleasure.
	This one has been discussed extensively on this program.
	We had a whole episode about this one.
	If you don't know about it, just listen to the backlog.
	Go back to the sketchbook.
	Go back and listen to the Snopes episode with Seth.
	Yeah.
	Because we talked about this and how Snopes Fact did and it became this huge thing.
	And that's why this was the year of Snopes.
	So if anybody's confused, this is satire.
	The Georgia Lawmaker did not do this.
	Number three.
	Husband Daycare now available at all hobby lobby locations.
	Is this the only non political one?
	Let me look.
	I think it is, right?
	Yeah.
	Or the non-news.
	Yeah, non-current adventure.
	Yeah, good job, Kyle, because that's your joke, right?
	That is my joke.
	See?
	It is a lot harder.
	It is hard mode to do something not current event really.
	Yeah.
	Well, it's just less predictable that it'll get as many shares.
	You just have no idea.
	Right.
	Yeah, there's a base number of shares and clicks you'll get just writing about a current event.
	Yeah.
	There's going to be a thousand people that will share it because they're like, hey, this supports my viewpoint.
	Even if you didn't do a good job on the joke necessarily.
	But I think these are all good.
	So I'm not saying that.
	Oh, yeah, of course.
	So husband daycare available on all hobby lobby locations.
	I would definitely take advantage of that.
	I do like getting there's certain things I like at Hobby Level.
	You talked about this year.
	Did we talk about your hobby stores you like because of the paints and or something?
	I get very, I get very excited when I see empty sketch pads.
	I get a possibility.
	A thrill goes up my leg.
	That sounds very Chestertonian.
	Like my daughter, like the presents I got.
	Oh, yeah, we didn't talk about Christmas because we've experienced Christmas.
	I didn't get too many gifts.
	I'm a dad.
	You know, dads don't get a lot of gifts, but my daughter got me a blank sketchbook, a little tiny one that I could fit in my pocket.
	And that was probably my favorite gift because I'm excited by blank sketchbooks.
	But we did also stupid throat voice.
	Edit that out, Dan.
	I was laughing at I am excited by blank sketchbooks.
	I am excited by blank sketchbooks, but I don't sound excited.
	No, the hobby lobby thing.
	Because we did talk about one time how I did go to a store that had a special room for men to hang out.
	Well, there was a shop for clothes.
	It was just like a picture of a football.
	It's super awkward because it was what a woman's idea of what a man would like a room to be.
	Should we put a on the wall?
	It was like a woman's version of men.
	Because it's still like a chairs are in this cute little circle that they can all talk.
	Like we would want our own, like, you know, yeah, I didn't ask for this.
	Anyway, we've covered that.
	Number two: Ilan Omar withdraw.
	This is a Frank article.
	Oh, I am.
	Number two: Elon Omar withdraws support from Bill to Save the Earth after learning that's where Israel is.
	Oh, this is beautiful.
	It speaks for itself, really.
	Yeah, it really does.
	Wait, I need to click on it because I need to go.
	I need to read a Frank quote because he's so funny.
	I wish we had actually found some of the responses to it that thought it was real.
	Yeah.
	This one might have gotten shared by like Ben Shapiro.
	Whenever that happens, you get people that don't know, you know, that it's satire.
	So Ocasio-Cortez was very apologetic for the bill, saying she hadn't considered how her plan would affect Israel.
	She vowed to change her plan so it might save the whole planet except for Israel.
	This is like a learning process, Ocasio Cortez told reporters.
	When I made the Green New Deal, I thought weather, like I thought weather, like storms and earthquakes, were caused by climate change.
	But now I've learned from Omar that lots of that is actually from Jewish-controlled weather machines.
	So for the next version of the Green New Deal, we have to keep that in mind.
	Excellent.
	Excellent work, Frank.
	Thank you for listening.
	Frank should write whole books.
	I bet they'd be hilarious.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah, he's written a bunch.
	I actually started because I had abandoned SideQuest.
	You went on a SideQuest from I abandoned the SideQuest.
	Yeah.
	And like you're probably doing in Red Dead Redemption to all the SideQuests.
	Not on purpose, just because I had a lot of things to read.
	And I got back into it.
	And so I got kind of to the Bible study part.
	Now they're this group that's all come together.
	The analogy there.
	It's pretty allegorical.
	So it's very funny that.
	Great.
	You guys got to read SideQuest.
	It is very funny.
	Okay, so number one.
	Motorcyclist who identifies as bicyclist sets cycling world record.
	That's crazy, too.
	To me, that this one, because we've done that joke like a number of times before when we did that one and that one, just like.
	Oh, no, I think Joe Rogan posted that one, right?
	He shared that?
	I think he did.
	He did.
	That's big.
	That'll help.
	Yeah, that'll definitely help.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that was one of those when it started taking off.
	I was like, this is huge.
	Because there was something in the news.
	There was a transgender cyclist that set world records.
	And she was kind of a far-left radical activist for that kind of thing.
	So everybody was feeling a little bit of angst over that.
	And then we did the motorcyclist.
	And there was something about it, just the Photoshop and just the guy zooming past everybody that made it work.
	Cheater.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	So that's the number one article of the year with lots of views.
	So the honorable mention, of course.
	Oh, we have to do the honorable mention from Ethan.
	Which is man.
	No, wife, wife.
	Unaware.
	I can't remember.
	Wife, unaware that the movie will answer all of her questions if she just pays attention.
	It's the most insulting.
	But it works.
	And the funny thing about it is it has nothing to do with my real wife because my wife is not like that.
	It's really about my kids, but if I had written it about my kids, then it's just not as funny if it's a kid unaware.
	Exactly.
	Kids are stupid.
	Well, husbands are probably the same way.
	Yeah.
	A lot of the time, but the joke's not as funny that way.
	Yeah, it's just funnier if you're taking the wife down a notch.
	I'm more like that, to be honest.
	Like my wife, you know, I'm like, I think Seinfeld has a bit where he goes, you know, who's that guy?
	He's like whispering in the movie theater.
	That's going to be, wait, who's that guy?
	And she's like, that's the guy from the beginning.
	What?
	Wait, he's with them?
	You know?
	She's like, just pay attention.
	I'm reading my daughter, my book right now, Brave Alley Possum, and because there's so many pictures in it, every single time a picture shows up, it's you know, the text hasn't reached what that picture is about yet.
	Like, it's just coming, it's a couple paragraphs away, but she always has to stop the reading.
	What's happening here?
	What is this?
	Why is this happening?
	Like, the book's going to tell you.
	If you just pay attention, yeah, we'll answer all of your questions.
	You see, the way that stories work is they introduce questions.
	Exactly.
	That's what I always that's the speech I give my kids.
	Every time I watch the movie, like, hey, why, blah, blah, blah.
	I'm like, the movie will answer your questions.
	That's what they do.
	They set up questions and then they give you answers by the end of the movie.
	Unless it's a Star Wars trilogy by Dean.
	And then they don't give you any answer.
	Yeah, this is some art film or something.
	I did like Rise of Skywalker, but it does, it was very weird because they went like the they threw out the entire second movie, basically.
	So it's interesting.
	All the reviews I've seen have been like, okay, what was the one before it?
	Last The Last Jedi.
	I always get messed up.
	It's like, is it The Last Skywalker or The Rise of the Jedi?
	Or what?
	I can't.
	The Rise of the Jedi.
	But yeah, so every review I've seen has been like, it's better than the.
	Wait, it was The Last Jedi?
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	Which one's the new one?
	Rise of Skywalker?
	Rise of Skywalker.
	It's better than The Last Jedi.
	Yeah, like that's the measure.
	It's just that, yeah, the last one is terrible, but it's a little better than that.
	It's a little better than that one.
	So that's all that matters.
	Yeah.
	Are you ready for predictions?
	I am ready.
	Or do you have any other honorable mentions you want to bring up?
	No.
	This year.
	All right.
	Let's do this.
	Predictions for 2020.
	Every year there are predictions.
	These are some of them.
	Bomb bomb.
	Dave's on vacation, I think.
	We should put Cynthia in.
	Yeah, so if you, this is only for subscribers, but we had a voice.
	Yeah, well, she was on the top.
	Oh, she was, but she didn't talk.
	She didn't introduce herself as Cynthia.
	We have a robot named Cynthia who is taking.
	She feels in for Dave.
	Yeah.
	So automated Cynthia, say hi to everybody.
	Hello.
	My name is Cynthia.
	I am far superior to Dave D'Andrea in performing efficient voice over work.
	Back to you, Kyle and Ethan.
	Thanks, Cynthia.
	All she wants is to be loved.
	So here are our predictions for 2020.
	Do you want to?
	I'll do the first.
	You do the first one.
	We didn't plan this.
	You do the first one.
	I'll do the second.
	The 2020 election will be extremely calm, civilized, and courteous.
	That's good to know.
	That's good to know, actually.
	Yeah, that is good to know.
	Kirk Cameron and Kevin Sorbo will star in Samson First Blood.
	I was trying to think of a good title that would work in the word ass bone or jaw of an ass, right?
	That's what it kills them with.
	I don't think they call it an ass bone.
	That's something else.
	Wow.
	We even keep that.
	Is that going to get flower bedded?
	Well, just wow.
	But yeah, they use the ASS word in that.
	That's a clear, and we all know.
	He doesn't say donkey bone.
	Anyway, your turn.
	No, wait, it's my turn.
	It's your turn.
	Okay.
	You don't do the numbers.
	There's no numbers on these ones.
	Cat memes will be declared racist.
	It's going to come to that.
	And then they're going to go back.
	Everybody who ever shared a cat meme will now be racist.
	Explain yourself.
	What is this?
	Lil Cat.
	Lil Cats are racist.
	I wonder how it would be.
	I think it would probably be like something to do with, you know, how they have that dialect?
	Like, they write the cats in that diet.
	The LOL cats that are like, oh, I'm in your.
	I'm in your ship.
	It's basically like they have bad English.
	I'm in your room sitting in your shoes.
	Yeah, it'll be like it's making fun of like uh foreigners who can't speak English very well.
	Yeah, so they are racist, so we already figured it out.
	We're gonna start this right now: cat memes, racist, Michael Malice will get saved, and he will become what are we deciding Michael Mercy.
	That's right, Michael Mercy.
	Michael Malice was an anarchist we had on previously.
	If you haven't listened to that episode, early episode, and like episode three or four, it was one of our first interviews, maybe our second interview.
	And he was really good and a real smart guy.
	And he shared one of our like Christian-y articles the other day.
	Oh, yeah.
	It's happening.
	Oh, the one, it was like the one about, or maybe he shared a meme or something.
	It was about how progressives will use the Bible to argue for their, but they're like, I don't believe that, I don't believe the Bible.
	Yeah.
	But here's a verse, just in case you're interested.
	So I was like, come on, Michael.
	You're getting close.
	Completely reject Jesus and all of his teachings, but he was a socialist.
	Just in case you're the argument wouldn't work on the way, but for you.
	My turn?
	Billy Graham will leap off his cloud to perform an atomic elbow drop on the entire Christianity Today editorial board.
	I almost made you smile there.
	That was a close one.
	So he yeah, because did Billy Graham vote for Trump?
	Is that worth it?
	Well, so Christianity Today had an editorial calling for Trump to resign and then or to be removed from office to be hilarious.
	Christianity Today.
	Just the whole title is hilarious of the magazine.
	Because Christians today do not read Christianity Today.
	Wow.
	That was savage.
	I mean, yeah, I wonder if I saw a post like it said, I can't remember if it was like New York Times or one of the big, you know, and they to boast the massive numbers of Christianity Today, they said they reach 4.7 million readers a month or something like that.
	It's kind of like nothing.
	Which, of course, when you list a number like that, that's like your highest possible number.
	That's the number you give out to me.
	It's a big spike.
	Yeah.
	And this isn't a gloat, but our traffic is much higher than that, right?
	It kind of depends on what measurement they're using.
	Yeah, what measurement you're using.
	Because you could be your highest one you promote to outlets.
	Like if you go off your highest best, so I'd say if you're using the highest, then we're definitely above that.
	Yeah.
	For a lot.
	And I, and just from inside the Babylon being knowing, like, we couldn't put, if we put out something about Trump should be removed from office, it'd be a joke.
	Like, it's if who cares what we have to say?
	Right.
	Yeah, because we don't feel like we're this big mainstay in Christian culture.
	Like, we are the beacon guide.
	Yeah, that we're this rudder that like guides Christianity.
	We're the captain of this.
	So just, I don't know, that perspective.
	That's ridiculous.
	Well, if they called for it, so yeah, but then anyway.
	So Franklin Graham said, he's kind of a goofball sometimes, too, but he published something saying, actually, my dad didn't want anyone to reveal who he voted for, but he voted for Trump because Billy Graham founded Christianity Today.
	So it's like, now he's okay.
	Yeah, that's right.
	I forgot about that.
	He would not have approved.
	So he's performed in the Tommy Elbow Drop.
	And it's my turn.
	Go.
	Disney will release over 400 new Star Wars movies.
	They will all be mediocre, but they will all break box office records.
	They will all at least be just a bit better than The Rise of the Jedi Walker, whatever one it was.
	We Star Wars fans.
	It's like I didn't like the last movie.
	I see the new movie.
	I'm like, oh, it was okay.
	And I'm like, I better go see it again just to see how I really feel about it.
	You know, I go see it three or four times.
	That's why they make so much dang money.
	I have an idea for a joke now that you could have a Star Wars fan who has not left a line for a new Star Wars movie for three years.
	He gets in a long line that you camp out in.
	You get into the movie, and once the movie's over, he goes to get the back of the next line, the next movie.
	That's good.
	Spends his entire life in Star Wars movie lines.
	Well, now, yeah, with Disney, how much they were doing.
	I heard they were actually going to back off a bit, though.
	I heard they were.
	Because they did solo, which didn't do as well as they'd hoped.
	Their spin-off movies weren't doing as well as they hoped.
	Like Jabba the Hut gets a gut.
	Like about him getting fat.
	Starts off with these skinny and he goes through depression.
	It's like a Joker movie.
	I don't know.
	There's all these stories, side stories.
	Jabba starring Joaquin Phoenix.
	Jack Black is Jabba.
	I don't know.
	Or no.
	Yeah, Philip Seymour Hoffman would have been a great set.
	He's not with us anymore.
	He would have been a great Joker or Java?
	Jabba.
	Like a dramatic.
	Philip Seymour Hoffman, huh?
	You know who is the modern day Philip Seymour Hoffman is?
	Dang it.
	Who goes hot pockets?
	Jim Gaffigan.
	Yeah.
	He did a movie recently, a drama, like a crime movie.
	He's a good actor.
	Gaffigan?
	Yeah.
	The film is titled American Dreamer starring Jim Gaffigan.
	I found it very disturbing.
	It was like a serious movie.
	It was actually really dark.
	It's always a coin flip for comedians if they're going to be good dramatic actors.
	Yeah.
	Like once in a while, they're either really good or terrible, right?
	Okay.
	That's true of any turn.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Well, kind of.
	You are right.
	It could be more of a spectrum.
	That's true.
	You're either good or not.
	The world will finally get an action movie with a female lead.
	Oh, finally.
	Finally.
	And then hopefully a black lead.
	But you know what?
	Nobody will see it because people don't watch movies with nobody watches.
	Once there's a woman in lead, everyone's gone.
	It's over.
	All the men don't go, and then all the women, for some reason, don't go either.
	I saw people that they were complaining that men didn't go see little women.
	Like there was a New York Times opinion page had a...
	My wife took the family and took our son and his friend.
	I'm like, how are they going to handle it?
	And he said they were pretty restless, but they sat through it.
	They hung in there.
	Yeah, there was a New York Times op-ed that was like, men are snubbing little women or something.
	And then it goes.
	It was like, of course they are.
	Of course.
	That was the title of it.
	What?
	Like, it was just like a Twitter rant as an op-ed thing.
	I don't know.
	Wow.
	Sometimes I like those old books written by women like Jane Austen.
	Yeah, Jane Austen's good, though I've never read a full Jane Austen book.
	They are hard to get.
	My wife, she just, she devours, she'll read Pride and Prejudice, Insensibility.
	She'll just rip through them in like two days.
	And I'm like, oh, I'd like to read that.
	And I get like, you know, a tenth of the way through.
	And I'm like, oh, man, I can't.
	It's good, but.
	Most of the woman authors that I get into are cult writers.
	They write about cults.
	Either they were in them or they're just writing about them.
	I read a couple of good bangers by women recently, like Gone Girl.
	Oh, yeah.
	My wife just read that.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	It's good.
	It's got some bad stuff in it.
	I always get Gone Girl and Gone Baby Gone mixed up.
	Yeah.
	Because those came out really close together.
	There's another one, too, that's called Missing.
	Gone with the Wind?
	Yes, that one.
	Thanks.
	All right, next one.
	Is it your turn or mine?
	You read the female lead one.
	The new Veggie Tales reboot will flop as fans protest the Veggie's lack of eyebrows.
	A new generation.
	Yeah, they're like, hey, we grew up with the Netflix one.
	What is this crap?
	You've ruined my childhood.
	My Veggie Tales had eyebrows.
	Not my Veggie Tales.
	Have you seen the ads for the new one?
	I get them on Facebook all the time.
	They just keep advertising them to me.
	They must know to filter them out from my feed or something.
	Like, oh, it's Ethan.
	Yeah.
	Exclude.
	When the first announcement came out, I saw it and it was all about the whole thing.
	It was what was funny about it having worked on the back to the original design.
	The whole idea, the whole push of it was like, we know that everybody misses the original Veggie Tales and we're bringing them back the way you love them or whatever.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, really sorry about what happened with Netflix.
	They're pushing that hard.
	It's like on a weird streaming service.
	I saw like they're wanting you to sign up for like yippee yippy TV or something.
	It was like sign up for new episodes.
	Or something?
	Yeah.
	There's a lot of people doing that.
	They're trying to get you on their streaming service with some big exclusive.
	But it's like to me.
	Because that was what Netflix was trying to do with Veggie Tales with us.
	But it's weird that it's supposed to be this big reboot and they're not on like Netflix or something because nobody's going to sign up for yippy TV or whatever.
	Veggie Tales has some rabid fans, bro.
	That's true.
	Rabid.
	So Veggie Tales has apologized for Ethan.
	The thing is, I think maybe a handful of a couple thousand people, even less than a couple thousand, maybe even a couple hundred people are the ones who vocally complain about this stuff on the internet.
	Yeah.
	Veggie is watched by millions and millions of people.
	Yeah.
	Even our show is.
	The people that are complaining are not the voice of the masses most of the time.
	Even the bad weirdos.
	Weirdos who get online to complain about Veggie Tales and don't have to eat.
	That's kind of weird.
	There's a lot of them.
	Yeah, even the bad Veggie Tales was watched by millions.
	That's right.
	So it's your turn hitting.
	Oh, yes, finally.
	Babies will finally get the right to vote.
	It's about dang time.
	Move that voting age down.
	Move it on down.
	Did you say that?
	Move the smoking age up?
	I think it's 21 now.
	I think you wrote this prediction or something like it.
	Yeah, I changed it last minute.
	Oh.
	Did I was trying to remember?
	Oh, yeah.
	So did you read that tweet that was like about that?
	No.
	So everybody was dunking on this tweet that I was reacting to the, because I just, because smoking age just got rid of it.
	Tories 21.
	So this, but in that vein, there was a girl on Twitter that was getting dunked on because she tweeted like voting age.
	Here are all the ages that everything should be.
	And she was like, voting age, 16.
	You know, and it was crazy her spread because it was like, you know.
	How old is she?
	I don't know.
	She's probably millennial-ish.
	Okay.
	And she's like, smoking, 25, you know, own a gun, 30.
	You know, like all these, like, and she's just like, I was like, what are you?
	Random.
	It's like, the things I like should be way when you're young.
	And the things I don't like should be when you're very old.
	You know, it's weird.
	So anyway, babies, use your political.
	It does feel like a lot of the, I mean, I think a lot of it's just the way you feel as a junior hire, but it feels like that attitude is more and more pervasive in younger than millennials.
	But the idea that you could just get to make this stuff up, like whatever it feels.
	Wait, wait, I think.
	I mean, I did that when I was in community college.
	I had to write a paper on something I felt passionately about.
	So I wrote this paper and I was 18 or 17 or whatever.
	I wrote this paper on car insurance.
	And I just wrote this very impassioned paper about how we shouldn't have to, if we get through a year and we spend all this money on car insurance, we don't get any requests, you get all the money back and blah, blah, blah, and all this, just this whole thing.
	And my teacher took me aside.
	She goes, you haven't thought through your arguments at all in this.
	You haven't considered at all, like, why, like, how are the, how's the company going to run if he gets all your money back?
	And like, she said, like, I just thought because I was so passionate about something, it should all happen.
	Like, it seems like a very common way of thinking.
	My 13-year-old is hitting that.
	Is she passionate about car insurance?
	No, because she hasn't started paying it yet.
	It's like our kids always want to start a business, and they're like, I'm going to start a restaurant where everything's a penny.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And then we crushed their dreams.
	We're like, you haven't even thought about operating costs.
	Yeah, you dummy.
	Okay.
	How about your employees?
	Are they a penny an hour?
	Don't think so.
	Didn't think so, dummy.
	Did you read that one?
	I did.
	I read the babies one.
	Okay.
	Portland will open the world's first organic non-GMO concentration camp.
	I do believe that when, because you know, we went through World War II a horrible time, and I do believe at some point we will go through another horrifying time like that.
	But the concentration camps will be run by bro guys that are like, hey man, come on in.
	We got non-GMO coffee over here.
	Pull up over there and then go ahead and step on into the meat grinder.
	It's not a meat grinder, it's a veggie grinder.
	What is it?
	I can't believe it's not meat grinder.
	Leave it on.
	You get turned into veggie patties.
	And it's like humane, cage-free concentration camps.
	Yeah.
	Cage-free concentration camps, another great source of humor.
	I've been reading Victor Frankel's Man's Search for Meaning.
	Man, that's a good book.
	We'll talk about that later.
	Interesting.
	I've been reading Star Wars, The Thrawn Trilogy.
	Okay, so you go ahead.
	Trump.
	Trump will be slain, but will rise again three days later.
	Wow.
	That was kind of over the line, Ethan.
	Not mine.
	He'll be slain on Twitter.
	Yeah, but then he'll get owned on Twitter hard for three days.
	He'll be silent.
	The rise of Trump Walker.
	To own all his enemies.
	The world will collectively wake up and realize that La Croix is terrible.
	LaCroix.
	La Croix.
	LaCroix.
	I said La Croix.
	La Craw.
	La Craw.
	That sounds like La Crocro.
	That's the Southern version.
	La Croix.
	Is it not a rapper?
	La Crai.
	Okay.
	So there's La Crai, La Croix, is what Caging guys call crawdads.
	La Craw.
	Man Fishing La Cra.
	La Cra.
	I guarantee it's good.
	Okay.
	So these are all our predictions for the year.
	Yes.
	So go to Vegas.
	Put money on these.
	That's how that works.
	We don't go to Vegas to do so.
	Hello.
	I have $20 here I would like to place on La Craw.
	Trump rising from the dead.
	Somebody would probably take it.
	They'd be like, sure, yeah.
	Yeah, okay.
	Give me 20 bucks.
	We'll start a gamble right now.
	Unless it's illegal in your state.
	We have 17 addicts in the room right now.
	They'll gamble on anything.
	Perfect.
	Okay.
	Do you want to talk to Greg Coco?
	Oh, man.
	Yeah.
	I hear Greg walking up right now.
	Here he comes.
	Greg Cochle, the amazing apologeticist.
	We get into apologeticist.
	I don't think so.
	Apologeticitis.
	Apologist.
	Apologist.
	Apologeticists.
	Here he comes.
	Let's dive in.
	Presenting an exclusive Babylon B interview.
	We are here in the studio with Greg Kochl, the rock star Christian apologist from Stand to Reason.
	He's an accomplished author, speaker, radio host, and he guarantees he can convince anyone to become a Christian in three minutes or less.
	Is that correct?
	More or less.
	Three minutes in three years.
	You know, I tell people now, and there's a reason why I do this, that I have not prayed with anyone to receive Christ in over 30 years.
	And I know it makes me sound like a total loser, but then I explain it.
	It has to do with the tactics material and also what the apologetics evangelism project looks like, ought to look like in my view, in this day and age.
	But that's another issue.
	So, you know, I can't cop to that great claim.
	It's been 30 years, so I'm still waiting.
	So you're not a big altar call guy?
	No.
	Can you at least just blow their minds so they're speechless?
	Generally, well, actually, when you do radio, that's great because you can say these things and then...
	Do they hang up on you?
	No, it's just there.
	Just pause.
	See, they're speechless.
	That dead air.
	They're just speechless.
	It's a captive audience situation.
	You can pretend you've silenced everybody.
	You say the profound thing and then just pause and let the dead air hang.
	Yeah, they can't deal with that.
	That's great.
	Can't even deal with it.
	Why don't we start by having you give us a little bit of your story?
	How did you get into apologetics?
	How did that speak to you?
	Well, are you like a dirty atheist?
	And then you like to be aware of that.
	I wasn't went forward at an altar call.
	Yeah, well, I wasn't.
	Can we tell you what your story was?
	Do you know it?
	No, you don't.
	Okay, I was not an atheist, but I was pretty dirty.
	You know, I was not like everybody else in the 60s and early 70s, which is when I went to high school and college.
	And I was out in the West Coast, and it was during the Jesus movement.
	And before that, I was raised Roman Catholic, and when I was in high school, I just blew that off.
	I said, well, that's not for me.
	And this is in the 60s when the counterculture movement was happening and a whole bunch of new ideas were coming into the culture.
	Like the idea of free love.
	Did you ever hear that phrase before?
	Heard that.
	Yeah, I've heard of it.
	That's basically the hookup culture, but that's what we called it back then because then at least it was sex was still associated loosely with love.
	With love, yeah.
	Yeah.
	So they called it free love back then.
	And look, when you're, you know, 17 and 18 years old, you're not really interested in like spiritual religion and purity and self-control and all of that stuff.
	That's not like the appealing message.
	And especially when the whole culture is being transformed, Beatles and the Rolling Stones and Transcendental Meditation and the Ethics.
	Who are those?
	Well, there's a movie you ought to see, by the way, called Yesterday, and that'll bring you up to speed on that.
	But anyway, so I just blew the religious thing off.
	And partly I thought I was just too smart to become a Christian.
	My experience with Christianity was enough to let me know that that wasn't where it's happening.
	And so I'm off doing my own thing.
	And then about six years later, I'm on the West Coast.
	I grew up in Chicago.
	And now I'm on the West Coast because I was chasing a woman out to the West Coast, my high school sweetheart.
	And that was the end of that relationship, as I imagine.
	But I didn't get the girl, but the Lord got me because my brother, younger brother, Mark, had become a Christian, and he was kind of the jock of the family.
	And I figured, okay, Mark, you need that kind of thing.
	I'm too smart for that, right?
	I was the only one of five kids to go to college and go to university and get a degree and all that other stuff.
	But in any event, so, but just over time, I wasn't, like I said, an atheist so much.
	I don't know.
	I figured there's something going on, but I didn't know what.
	But I knew I wanted to do my own thing.
	I didn't want anybody to tell me what to do.
	And so on the one hand, I was a relativist.
	Like, there's no right or wrong.
	It's only up to the individual to decide.
	Then that lets me do what I want to do.
	But at the same time, I was marching against the war in Vietnam.
	You know, that's an immoral war.
	And what's interesting for me about that is that I was aware that there was a contradiction.
	I was actually consciously aware that, wait, this doesn't work.
	But then I just brushed it off because the payoff for me was so appealing.
	I can do whatever I want and I could still march against the world.
	I'm not going to pay attention.
	So what ended up happening, though, is that a simple way to put it is God just wore me down.
	And as Mark was talking to me about Christ, and it wasn't like a lot of apologetics, anything like that.
	I know we went on a camping thing once, and we were hiking through the woods, and one of his buddies, this cassette player, he's carrying with Walter Martin tapes on it, you know.
	And so I'm hearing Walter Martin in the woods, the late cult apologist.
	But, you know, I didn't care about that stuff at all.
	And so certainly in a cult, it wasn't my deal.
	So anyway, but eventually.
	God just got me.
	And I just knew towards the end of September 78.
	I said, I think this is true.
	No, I couldn't have told you why.
	To be honest with you, I couldn't have told you.
	It wasn't until after I became a follower of Christ that as I'm engaging people in Westwood Village by UCLA, Jesus movement, counterculture, lots of things happening.
	Lots of folks walk in the street.
	Lots of openness to talk too.
	None of this put-down stuff that you kind of experience today.
	And so now I have to give an answer for what it is that I believe.
	And I need him for myself, too.
	And so that's when I started studying apologetics.
	Just a little here, a little there.
	And then as I got my teeth into it, I thought, hey, this stuff's fun.
	It's pretty cool.
	I like this.
	And one of the first guys to have a huge impact on me was Francis Schaefer.
	And so I read a lot of his stuff, especially what has come to be known as the trilogy, the God who's there.
	He is there and he is not silent and escape from reason.
	And I remember sitting in my study, or it's like, actually, I was living in a Christian community at that time, and this bedroom had about 10 guys living in it with bunk beds, sitting at a desk looking out over Westwood Village, reading this book.
	And I just paused, Francis Schaefer, and I thought, man, this stuff is really true.
	There was some sense that even though I'd become a Christian, believing it was true, capital T truth, true truth is the way Schaefer would put it, I had this deepening, deeper sense of conviction and confidence in it.
	And that was really life-changing for me.
	So and that was just the start.
	And early on, there weren't that many people to draw from.
	Josh McDowell was doing his thing, and John Montgomery and Walter Martin, Norm Geisler was around, but there weren't that many.
	But I was drawing, it was C.S. Lewis from across the pond, you know, and that was great.
	We're learning from him.
	Lee Strobel invented apologetics, right?
	He was the originator.
	Yeah.
	Well, he had a big, made a big splash.
	It was long after my time.
	He was a big influence on C.S. Lewis.
	Yeah, if I remember right.
	That's right.
	It's in a footnote there of mere Christianity.
	Well, we hate to break it to you, but you're wrong about your faith.
	You're wrong about Christianity because there are dinosaur bones.
	Yeah, well, that's true.
	There are.
	So I just wanted to.
	Therefore, what does one have to do with the other?
	So now I'm just going into game plan, tactical game plan here.
	What does one have to do with the other here?
	That's what I'm going to ask.
	Satan put the dinosaur bones there.
	Well, I don't, you know, I know this is tongue-in-cheek, but there are a lot of Christians who are, especially if they're kind of schooled in one understanding of origins that think, man, how do we take seriously this part of geology?
	And I think on some views, this becomes more problematic.
	And this is one reason I don't hold that view, because there are significant problems with it, and there is no theological requirement, biblical requirement for me to hold it.
	So, you know, dinosaur bones don't pose a problem for me.
	I think they're pretty cool, actually.
	They're pretty cool.
	Yeah.
	I think it's sad that they aren't around.
	It would be cool to have a pet dinosaur.
	Yeah.
	Well, some of them are.
	For me, that's more of a, like my faith is more challenged by the fact that we don't get to have pet dinosaurs than it is that they exist in.
	That's a good point.
	Speaking of good points, we want to present you because, you know, you're an expert in this field.
	We posted our 10 arguments for Christianity that are guaranteed mic drops.
	And I appreciate that you had to ask us what a mic drop means.
	Okay, yeah.
	So, wait, these are four or against?
	Ten.
	Four Christianity.
	You can use these if you see anything.
	We want to get your feedback and see how effective you think these are.
	Let me write these things down.
	If they're cover, maybe I'll squeeze them in without having to footnote you guys.
	Yeah, these are three.
	Work us into the next version of Tactics, your book.
	I don't think there's going to be a second.
	This one is substantially improved over the last one.
	It took me a lot of work, but I think this is the creme de la creme now.
	Okay, all right.
	Yeah, we'll get into it.
	We'll make sure to plug your book, too.
	Okay, we'll take turns here.
	So, first one is just say, so this is somebody who's offered you an argument, and you say, you know who else makes that argument?
	Satan, clunk, mic drop.
	Yeah, exactly.
	You got it.
	Got it.
	You get it if you want to.
	You walk on the stage and they're just sitting there, head blowing up.
	All right, you hit him with a surprise.
	Hit him with a surprise, God's not dead flash mob.
	Yeah, that is probative, man.
	That's powerful evidence.
	There they are, you know, the mob dancing and singing where the atheist lies dead in this.
	Oh, former atheist.
	Yeah, former atheist saved at the last second.
	Well, better late than never, right?
	He at least became a newsboys fan.
	I'm not sure if he got saved.
	I don't think he heard the whole song.
	You know, he just got the intro in the background a little bit before he shuffled off his mortal coil.
	You don't think that was an accurate depiction of converting an atheist?
	Well, you know, God could do anything, you know.
	By the way, you know who raises that kind of objection?
	Satan.
	He's got it.
	He's getting it.
	You pick these things up pretty quick.
	I'm not as dumb as I look, which is a good thing.
	This is one of my personal favorite ones.
	So they make some big science-y point or whatever, and you know, it looks like you've lost the debate.
	And you go, Yeah, but we've still got Robbie Zacharias.
	So atheists don't have Robbie Zacharias.
	We got him.
	He's like the best.
	Well, Robbie's a poet, man.
	He is pretty good.
	I was scared there for saying you'd be like, I don't like Robbie Zach.
	I actually have a tactic against that approach.
	It's called Rhodes Scholar.
	It's like when we say, we got this guy, we got this scholar.
	And if it doesn't work on the other side, it doesn't work on our side, at least the way it was offered.
	What matters isn't that we have Ravi.
	What matters is whether what Robbie says counts, makes any sense.
	No, I think it does.
	And I like Robbie.
	Obviously, and he's a poet.
	He can say this stuff with a real, I mean, it's awesome just to listen to him.
	But what matters is not that he's an awesome speaker because there's awesome speakers all over the place.
	What matters is what he says and whether what he says works.
	But there's no atheist equivalent to Robbie Zacharias.
	That's my point.
	You can't.
	There's none.
	I don't know.
	I always, it always.
	Well, I guess because a lot of atheists are just so angry, you know, all the time.
	And maybe.
	There's nice ones.
	Like Michael Shermer seems like a nice guy.
	Well, yeah, I debated Michael like three hours behind a microphone, three hours on a national radio show.
	The Hugh Hewitt show.
	Yeah, he is kind of a nice guy.
	I mean, yeah, he's, you know, he can gang out, get her, he has longer hair, he wears a leather jacket.
	You know, he's kind of got this cool vibe.
	He drives a motorcycle, I think, rides a motorcycle, whatever, you know, but still, the issue isn't whether he's cool.
	The issue is whether his ideas work.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, obviously it's a joke.
	It does bother me in debates between Christopher Hitchens.
	He always won all these points for being this like witty British bad boy.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Even though he made a horrible point, it didn't make any sense.
	He just won all these points for his charm.
	It is hard not to like him.
	Yeah.
	It just was hard not to like him.
	I agree.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But that's a liability of debate.
	So I don't do so many of them anymore just because the best ideas don't always win.
	Gamesmanship plays a huge part.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So.
	Next point, Kyle.
	Interesting.
	Next argument.
	I'm thinking about becoming an atheist now that I learned that he's got a motorcycle and a leather jacket and closer.
	I'm like, really?
	He does?
	Well, there's nerdy atheists, too.
	So, you know, you're not going to be cool just by being an atheist.
	All right.
	You're already pretty cool.
	These guys look at them.
	I don't know.
	You got hair on your face.
	That's kind of a lot of hair in our faces.
	Yeah, that is cool.
	I'm going for the Santa Beard right now.
	It's Christmas.
	It's like spiritual.
	It gives us our powers.
	If you cut our beards, we'd lose them all.
	Wither away.
	Did you say the Santa Bear?
	Santa beard.
	Oh, beard.
	Well, you got too much red in it.
	I thought you said Santa Bear, like those little, maybe the little bears.
	Because that would fit you better.
	You like it to look like.
	You look kind of cuddly.
	Wow.
	I think Greg Kochl's going to cuddle with me.
	This is awkward.
	Should I step out of the room?
	Go to the next argument.
	Okay, next.
	Quick.
	Check it, ladies.
	Next argument break out into charismatic gibberish.
	There it is.
	You just start rolling around on the floor.
	Boom.
	Mike drop it.
	Mike drop.
	Yeah, then Mike can drop the microphone.
	You can drop it and roll away again.
	Right.
	How about repeatedly shout, get they behind me, Satan!
	While assuming Gandalf's classic, you shall not pass posts.
	Yeah, which is a good one.
	You got to have the staff to do that one.
	Yeah.
	You got to bang it down and break the bridge, the whole deal.
	That's a good argument for the existence of God that Lord of the Rings exists, I think.
	I don't know if your big Lord of the Rings fit.
	I love it.
	I love it.
	I'm trying to see the connection.
	Well, like, if God didn't exist, you know, how could there be Lord of the Rings?
	Boom, Mike Drop.
	Boom, Mike Drop.
	That's a bonus argument.
	Well, that's the bonus mic drop.
	All right.
	But then again, the Hobbit movies were made.
	I still like those.
	I think those people were hard on those.
	I'm still confused, but that's all right.
	Well, you usually your logic evades me here.
	You usually don't encounter arguments of this level.
	That's true.
	You're in over your head here.
	I'm out of my can.
	Oh, my gosh.
	Medic.
	All right.
	So settle the argument with the Chick-fil-A versus atheist chicken sandwich blind taste test.
	You can't do that anymore.
	I know.
	Yeah, does that change?
	We actually wrote this absolutely to the dark side.
	We wrote this a while ago, so it doesn't work anymore.
	Oh, this is so sad.
	I talked about this on my own show.
	I'm Johnny come lately.
	I know this is old news, but it took me a while to get around it.
	I only have two hours a week on my own show.
	But there are other things that were pressing, but oh, this is so sad.
	This is so sad.
	So I'm not, I never liked Chick-fil-A anyway.
	I mean, the food, that's right.
	But I was kind of rooting for them because the role they were playing, being big guys in takeout and still willing to stand for what was good, right, and true kind of thing, but not anymore.
	In fact, it's worse.
	They're not just kind of backing down.
	They're giving Boku money to the bad guys.
	And it adds massive insult to injury as far as I'm concerned.
	Yeah, I'm really curious kind of how that all went down.
	We're supposed to talk to a guy from the Salvation Army on the show coming up soon here.
	So I'm kind of curious to see what that is.
	On Tuesday, I read their statement on the air, and they were very gracious and very generous, which is exactly what I'd expect from them.
	And they said, look, if you guys are into giving your money more to people who are helping the homeless and people who need to eat and all that, that's what we do.
	And we're the biggest ones in the world.
	So we're a little confused about what you said, but whatever.
	Now, my wife and I, we support Salvation Army because we don't give money on the street to people.
	We give it to Salvation Armory.
	We know it's going to help people on the street, but it's going to be done right.
	Anyway, so this is, yeah, my recommendation is instead of, and I said that on the yard, don't eat the Chick-fil-A.
	Take that money and give it to the Santa with the kettle.
	Now, there's a second job for you right there on the weekend.
	Santa with the kettle?
	Yeah, you pay that?
	You got that?
	Well, then don't I pay?
	Probably not.
	You get a cut.
	You get a cut.
	You can just jangle some out of there at the end of the shift.
	But then you could never run for president as a Democrat because you'd get it canceled.
	Oh, there you go.
	This is so dumb.
	What do you got?
	Are we still dropping the mic?
	Yeah, we got three with three or four more.
	Say, you're stealing all your moral arguments from a Judeo-Christian worldview.
	I'm calling the cops.
	Then call the cops.
	Micro.
	Officer.
	I don't know when you dropped the mic.
	I think there is a merit in the kind of response that's offered.
	I don't want to hear this.
	I mean, is this...
	I did, I got that idea from, I did see a debate once because it is a, in truth, that really is true, right?
	Like, well, Well, there is an argument.
	There's a truth to it.
	I saw a guy do this.
	Every single thing the atheist said, he just made the exact same argument about morality.
	He never was pastor.
	He read Frank Turik's book, Stealing from God, which is a fabulous book, by the way.
	But there's an art to using these arguments.
	And by the way, I had a conversation like this with an atheist, and what he's doing is complaining about the God of the Bible doing all these nasties, right?
	Especially the Old Testament.
	And they can find these things, and they don't understand the circumstances in any way.
	They complain.
	All right.
	And so my question was, okay, where are you getting your standard by which you're judging God?
	Help me out here.
	I mean, I can answer the question.
	We can get to that later.
	but I'm just trying to make sense of the question coming from an atheist.
	And what ended up happening is he acknowledged that really what he was saying is that the God of the Bible did not act the way his evolution taught him to act.
	That's what he ended up saying.
	Well, I had asked the question that way, and he agreed to it.
	Interesting.
	You know, it just showed this is kind of absurd.
	But there is a point there.
	Yeah, yeah.
	But it can be done ham-handedly.
	Apparently, the person you were listening to.
	No, yeah, there's a video I saw where a guy had invited an atheist to his church to perform a debate for his congregation.
	And it's almost like he just read one book, and then he just used the one argument out of the book every time the atheist said anything.
	I was embarrassed for the guy.
	But, okay, so number nine, Kylie, you got this one?
	I think we're on number eight.
	Oh, hey, I tried to skip this one.
	Why do people say, God bless you when you sneeze?
	Oh, yeah, wait brief silence and then say case closed.
	Case closed.
	Gazend.
	Oh man.
	Repeatedly bring everything back to the Calem cosmological argument until your opponent is exhausted, then hit them with second law of thermodynamic.
	Well, it's clear you're not a player here because you mispronounced Kalam.
	Kalam.
	Calem Kalam.
	I thought it was some Old Testament guy, the Calem guy.
	Kalam.
	Yeah, the donkey.
	It's Kalam.
	Yeah.
	Talk to the donkey, Calem's.
	That's right.
	Calem's ass.
	It's the Kalam.
	Which also is a good argument.
	But again, there's a way to use it.
	Okay.
	All right, last one.
	Okay.
	Blindside them with a long, pensive pause and then finish them off with one word.
	Sad.
	That's the Trump way.
	Wait, sad.
	Sad.
	Oh.
	Not good.
	Not good.
	Well, that's two words.
	Oh, yeah, no, I added the parsimony there.com.
	I'm just, I'm confirming.
	Kalam.
	He looked it up.
	Well, what does she know?
	Yeah, how do they do?
	Is that right?
	Yeah, how do they know?
	That's why I always wonder how do these people know?
	Yeah.
	Well, they'll become serious.
	Well, see, this is the deal, you know, when you don't know, you can say it any way you want.
	I have to be like, the kalim, cosmological argument.
	So like when you're reading these names in the Old Testament and you're a preacher or something, you can butcher it.
	You can say it any way you want.
	Just do it with confidence.
	My pastor does that.
	He'll throw letters in there that aren't even in there.
	It's amazing.
	People don't know.
	How does he know how to say that?
	Oh, wow.
	Well, he'll say the thing that's clearly not even up there.
	It's shockingly funny.
	I love it.
	I love when he reads names.
	All right.
	Well, let's get into some actual questions about evangelism.
	Oh, that wasn't the serious stuff?
	Oh, yeah, that was.
	Well, that was, this is the more for you.
	We were just trying to help you out.
	All right.
	Just give me some little tricks I could use, you know.
	All right, so I'm a super awkward guy.
	And, you know, people I don't know, you know, it's hard for me to like socialize.
	And it's like, oh, actually total introverts.
	We are.
	This is why you're in a room in front of a mic.
	Exactly.
	We just lock ourselves in you.
	So, you know, it's like, oh, hey, hey, do you like football?
	I guess I like football.
	I don't know.
	And then it's just like, hey, do you believe in God?
	And it's super weird.
	I'm not good at it.
	So how do you bring up God in a conversation?
	Well, I don't bring up God in conversations in that way.
	Sad.
	Not good.
	Here's a guy.
	And hey, rest my case.
	Get behind me.
	I'm trying to be a regular fellow, just an ordinary guy.
	And this is a concern I have by Christians that they kind of go into this religious mode.
	The closer they get to a church, the more in the mode they go.
	And the worst are the pastors standing in front of an audience.
	I have a lot of respect for pastors, but they have a, because they're doing a hard job, but they have kind of a script that they go by.
	And then Christians pick up the script, and it's kind of a church script.
	The problem is it's hard to talk to people like that.
	It's kind of like, I remember seeing a comedy routine.
	You know how flight attendants used to talk?
	They don't do it so much anymore, but they had this kind of way of talking that was really annoying.
	We go up at the end of every sentence or somehow they did this.
	And so then there was a gal on this TV show, and she kept talking like that.
	And then as she walked away, somebody leaned over and said, well, she's a flight attendant.
	In other words, she took her annoying flight attendant voice and was using it in everyday conversation.
	And so a lot of Christians take their annoying to outsiders and sometimes annoying to inside.
	It annoys me.
	Christian kind of voice, and then they carry it out.
	And a lot of your kind of tongue-in-cheek mic drops right there were kind of exports from a church environment, as if this is going to communicate.
	Now, I fly a lot.
	So who listens to flight attendants anymore?
	No matter how they talk.
	It's blah, blah, blah.
	That's what they say.
	Charlie Brown's mom.
	Unless you fly in like Southwest.
	They have, you get on, the flight attendant says, hi, we're here.
	Shut up.
	I got something to say.
	Yeah, they do like their own comedy routine.
	Yeah, they do that.
	You land, they say, we're here.
	Get out.
	But people then start laughing and they're paying attention because they've just broken the mold a little bit.
	And so all of a sudden people become conscious of what she's saying.
	Same thing here with Christians.
	We get into this script and people, their eyes glass over.
	It's like it's blah, blah, blah.
	It's Christian yakity yak yak.
	And so they just tune it out.
	But if we begin to engage people about important topics that have spiritual substance or ramifications, but we talk like a normal person, well, that's going to make a huge difference.
	In fact, in the tactics book, the new one, the 10th anniversary edition, I've added a lot more material to it.
	In fact, 40% more material than I had before.
	And six new tactics.
	And one of them has to, it's called watch your language.
	And I'm not saying like quit swearing.
	I'm not advocating that, but I'm kind of presuming Christians are speaking politely anyway and not in a vulgar fashion.
	But what I'm talking about is this Christian script, this Christian lingo deal, because it's such a turnoff to people.
	And I want to be considered like somebody who's just an ordinary Joe who thinks about these things, thoughtful and can communicate with people.
	So I'm not going to jump in and throw a, you know, are you washed in the blood, you know, or I talked to God this morning, you know, or something like that.
	I'm just going to try to size up the situation.
	I'm going to engage and use questions to do that.
	And the game plan, tactic game plan that I talk about in the book, it's actually the subtitle is a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions.
	I really have a kind of a step-by-step thing that I can kind of keep in mind that allows me to maneuver graciously and without being awkward, letting largely the circumstances come to me and then trying to take advantage of the circumstances, principally by asking questions, by drawing another person out.
	So, you know, if you meet a new person and the person starts asking questions, well, that's kind of flattering.
	You know, they're showing an interest in you and they're listening, presumably.
	And so this is a pleasant experience for the one who's being questioned.
	And it's not hard on the questioner.
	There's no pressure on that person.
	You're just drawing people out.
	But when you're drawing people out with questions and you're listening to what they say, a whole bunch of stuff ends up on the table.
	And then you may see things on the table that give you an opportunity to ask another question to direct the conversation the way you want it to go.
	Here we're on a radio show, right, or a podcast where behind mics, okay?
	I'm doing all the work.
	You guys are directing it by the questions you ask, but you're not doing the hard work, right?
	I mean, you're a lot of fun and all that.
	But, you know, when you ask me a question, now it's my turn to talk.
	But in a certain sense, you're in the driver's seat of the conversation, the show.
	It's your show.
	How do you manage it?
	By the questions you ask.
	And so this is something I want people to get in their mind.
	You know, you could be in the driver's seat of a conversation, even if you're not talking very much, by the questions that you ask other people.
	And then that's going to provide information that will maybe stimulate other questions and allow you to steer the conversation in a more productive way spiritually.
	Maybe, maybe not.
	I mean, these things don't always happen, right?
	But to me, that's a much better way to go than the standard way a lot of Christians do.
	Not that we can't introduce things into the conversation, but a lot of Christians are just too timid for that.
	I'm sympathetic.
	The game plan helps them there.
	Nice.
	I feel like I should ask a question now.
	Yeah, I'm waiting.
	I want to do a blank look here.
	I'm a role-play guy.
	I don't want to know what's going on in their head.
	Like, wait, I'm in control.
	I'm managing this work.
	What's next?
	I'm losing control of the details.
	He's taking control by telling us all this.
	He's taking over.
	I feel the power coursing through my veins to ask questions.
	I feel like I'm being sapped to it.
	That's good.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I never thought of that.
	When you're asking questions, you're actually guiding the conversation.
	Yeah, you're in the driver's seat, and that's where you want to be.
	And the Christians don't feel that way most of the time, especially when they're engaged with somebody that's a little bit aggressive.
	And it's not hard to find those people nowadays.
	And they find themselves backing up, backing up, backing up because they're getting pushed, pushed, pushed with challenges that they don't know how to respond to and attitude and stuff like that.
	And they start thinking, ah, man, I wish I would have never opened up my big fat mouth.
	I'm going to sit on the bench next time around.
	But we need everybody in play here.
	We need them out in the field.
	And that's why I make a distinction between harvesting, leading people to Christ, and gardening.
	Okay?
	You can't have a harvest without a season of gardening.
	Okay, this is just obvious.
	It certainly is true in evangelism as well.
	I want to teach people to get off the bench and garden.
	Do a little here, a little there, a little here, a little there, and maybe not even get to the gospel.
	You know, Jesus didn't get to the gospel in every conversation.
	All right.
	I know there's a pressure in some circles to do that.
	I just don't think it's the best idea, especially in our culture right now.
	A lot of times there's a lot more tilling and weed pulling that needs to be done and that kind of thing.
	So that's why the question-asking game plan approach, which I outline in detail in the book Tactics, I think is going to be the best thing to help timid people move forward in an effective way.
	So at what point does it become a sin not to evangelize as we are called to witness and to share our faith?
	That's the thing that I struggle with as a Christian.
	I hate, and honestly, because I do feel super disingenuous when I just try to find a random person and start telling them about Jesus.
	It's just not how I function.
	I feel they can tell that I'm making them into their little project and trying to win heaven points or something.
	I don't know.
	There's a weird awkwardness there that's not natural.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And so I don't know where is that line where you actually should have done it.
	Well, two things.
	One is I don't experience that kind of sense of awkwardness because I don't feel like I have to force things.
	I'm just looking for opportunities with my game plan in mind.
	I guess I say that's why I don't do it.
	Yeah, I understand that entirely.
	As far as your first question is concerned, to be honest with you, I've never been asked that question before quite like it.
	And I never, I never asked new questions to people.
	I never think about that.
	I don't.
	Because at some point it is a sin, right?
	Like to not.
	Well, again, see, this is what I'm saying is I don't think of it in those terms.
	I think you might someone might construe it that way.
	If you're just not interested in sharing the gospel and talking to people, you know, then maybe you ought to be doing it more.
	And if you're not doing what you ought to be doing, then maybe that's a sin.
	But I just don't think of those in those terms.
	I try to live the life that I think the scripture identifies that God wants me to live.
	And there's give and take and all of these kinds of things.
	So I don't know if there's any one instance, oh, you're sinning now because you didn't say something to that person under that circumstance.
	I might think, oh man, I missed an opportunity.
	But I don't think this just is a broader issue about the way I understand God as a follower of Christ, now under the cross, as it were.
	Having been rescued by the rescuer, now I'm in the house.
	I'm not on the outside.
	I'm on the inside.
	Now I don't have a sovereign judge.
	I have a father who's loving me, moving me forward, and helping me to grow.
	And so I picture it in that way.
	And that's why I'm not always thinking condemning thoughts.
	Did I do this just right?
	Or did I witness enough or whatever?
	And because I don't, I think there are those kinds of times maybe when you will be reflecting, well, maybe I should be putting more effort into this.
	I'm not on that kind of works treadmill that a lot of people happen to be on.
	Fortunately, I have a very rich sense of the grace of God in my life.
	And so, you know, I tend to be more relaxed about that.
	I want to grow in grace, but I know that every single thing I do is going to be flawed.
	Every single thing.
	Francis Schaefer said once, he said, all utopian ideals turn out to be cruel in the end because they can never be fulfilled.
	And so I have grace with myself.
	I have grace.
	I try to have grace with other people in that regard.
	So I'm not thinking that I sin for not saying that.
	What I'm trying to do is what Paul said, try to make the most of the opportunity.
	Colossians 4.
	Conduct yourself with wisdom towards outsiders.
	Be nice to them.
	Let your speech be with grace, that kind of stuff.
	I think my goal is to, I think you try to live a life that is exempt.
	I don't know if exemplary is the right word, but like that you're living differently.
	You're living according to your faith, and that should in itself be noticeable, have a noticeable effect on you.
	I agree.
	You should be ready.
	The thing I'm concerned with is like, you know, like on a consistent basis, trying to measure yourself against a standard because I think that's what I'm saying.
	I think I'm trying to define, you know, I think that, you know, with that calling to evangelize and to share your faith with people, I'm trying to figure out where, am I copping out by saying I try to live a life that is different from others.
	Also, I'm always ready to give an answer.
	And if somebody asks, I'm willing and I have something and I will have the conversation.
	Is that a cop-out?
	Well, I think that it might be.
	I think that there's more that can be done.
	But you see, I understand the tension.
	Okay, so I can try to be good and nice and have some answers if I'm asked.
	Okay.
	But taking the initiative, whoa, that's scary.
	Okay, now I understand that.
	So it's part of the job of other Christian brothers and sisters.
	This is disciples, discipleship, to provide a way for guys like you who are maybe sitting on the bench a little bit with your concern about pushing too hard against somebody and people getting mad to give you a way to get off the bench in a safe fashion.
	And so this, I mean, just go back to the simple asking questions, you know.
	So I don't, if I'm an environment, oh, look, there was a gal who was a waitress.
	It's a great example.
	A waitress in Seattle, it was earlier this year.
	And I was at a hotel.
	I'd just done a Friday night, all-day Saturday conference.
	I was tired.
	Sunday morning.
	And I'm doing Sunday, so morning services, right?
	So I get up.
	I'm at the, I'm checking out of the hotel in a few minutes.
	I'm sitting there getting my coffee and some food there before I go to the church.
	And I have a joke.
	It's like before my first cup of coffee, I'm an atheist.
	So I'm just like, I don't want to talk about God, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And this flight, not flight, waitress comes up to me, and she is just way too buoyant for my mood.
	Let's just put it that way.
	She's definitely a morning person.
	I hate those kind of people.
	Oh, man.
	And I'm just trying to, yeah, just coffee, please.
	Yeah, scrambled eggs.
	Go away.
	You know, that's what's going on inside of me.
	But then she said, you know, she said something.
	She asked me, what are you doing?
	Well, I'm teaching at church later on in a couple hours.
	I figure that I'll leave.
	Yeah.
	And then now she said, oh, that's wonderful.
	I said, oh, are you a Christian?
	She goes, oh, no, no, no, I'm not a Christian.
	But, you know, the universe takes care of me.
	Whoa.
	What does that mean?
	That's what I asked her.
	I said, really?
	Well, I'm not sure.
	Is the universe a person?
	No, God takes care of me.
	Well, wait, does God take care of you?
	Does the universe?
	Well, God is the universe.
	Well, how does that work?
	Notice that I'm just all I'm, here I am.
	I'm not interested in engaging, but she says these things that stimulate my curiosity enough to ask her a question.
	Okay.
	So now I now there's a bridge there.
	That question of me drawing her out a little bit, no pressure on me, no tension in the discussion or anything.
	There's a bridge now from me to her to now maybe touch a little bit on the spiritual things.
	But it doesn't take any courage on my part.
	It just takes the awareness that, oh, that happened.
	Now I have a way to respond.
	I can ask a question about it.
	What do you mean by that?
	That's the first question in the game plan.
	What do you mean by that?
	That's variations that you can use.
	But notice how in that circumstance, I didn't want to share Christ with her.
	I wanted her to go away, leave me alone.
	Yet she said this thing that was so odd.
	I wanted to draw her out a little bit.
	Now, I never witnessed to her.
	That is, I never advanced my own view.
	All right.
	But I kept asking her these questions because her own view was a little bit crazy.
	I mean, it was somewhat borderline incoherent.
	And so I was asking questions just trying to not make her feel bad or anything.
	Oh, you dummy, that's done.
	You know, no, I just, how does this work?
	That was my thing.
	And so she kept going on and on about these different things, tossing this out.
	And finally, I just let it go.
	All right.
	And then she went off and filled somebody else's coffee.
	And I promise you, about five minutes later, she came back and she said, that was really interesting talking to you.
	Nobody has ever asked me these questions before.
	And I said, well, if we had more time, I'd ask you more questions.
	She said, it got me thinking, is what she said.
	I said, well, if we had more time, I could ask you more questions and you could do some more thinking.
	But as it turned out, I had to go.
	But notice in that situation there, we had kind of transferred into a spiritual conversation in a somewhat effortless way, even when I wasn't even, I was negative towards it, the idea, not just neutral.
	So this, I think, is power, is the power of the tactical game plan that allows you, someone like you who's a little timid about these things, you're ready to be in a passive position to respond if you're asked, but you don't want to, you know, step out.
	You don't know how to do that.
	This is a way of being able to do what Paul says in Colossians 4: make the most of the opportunity.
	And as for being, again, like a really nice guy and living your life, okay, well, I think that's great.
	We ought to do that.
	But if that's the sum total of our kind of witnessing, then I just want to remind you of something that you will never be able to out-nice a Mormon.
	It's true.
	We haven't made jokes about that.
	Well, you've got some very stiff competition if that's your technique.
	That's why I think it's good to go a little further.
	And that's why one of the reasons I wrote the book, Tactics.
	So did you then drop a million-dollar gospel tract for your tip?
	No, I didn't.
	I don't leave tracks.
	It's just not my style.
	I do recommend.
	There was a chick track that was actually very functional in my own conversion.
	The dark dungeons.
	It was the Dungeons and Dragons one.
	No, this was this is, remember, it was 46 years ago.
	So they didn't have Dungeons and Dragons then.
	It was called Creator or Liar, but I was getting all my groceries out of my grocery bag.
	That was all paper back then, you know, and there in the bottom was a tract.
	How much did it cost, that grocery bag back then?
	Yeah, right.
	They actually paid me for the grocery bag.
	So, but anyway, I read it, and it really did have an impact on me.
	So those are useful, I think.
	But no, what I ended up doing is if you're going to leave it, if you're going to leave a tract, leave a big tip, at least 20%, you know, and Christians are bad tippers.
	Okay.
	So that's my recommendation about tips.
	But I don't usually leave a tract, although I'm not discouraging people from doing it.
	Just make sure you got a big tip along with it.
	But what I did do is I realized, oh, you know what?
	I always like to, if I could leave something, then I can.
	Who knows what?
	Sometimes I have.
	Then I realized, hey, I got a copy of the story of reality right here in my bag that I always carry with me in case I meet somebody on the plane.
	That's a book I wrote three years ago.
	It really is meant to be a kind of a, it's awkward to say this, but kind of a mere Christianity for the 21st century.
	Now, it's awkward because there's only one C.S. Lewis, there's only one mere Christianity, but it's an attempt to try to give the big picture in language that people now could understand because amazingly, some people think that Lewis is hard to read.
	That just, that's crazy.
	In any event, so I had it.
	I said, if I gave you a book, would you read it?
	And it won't hurt my feelings if you say no.
	That's what I told her.
	I'm totally genuine.
	She said, oh, yeah, I'd read it.
	I said, okay, here it is.
	And I give it to her.
	I said, actually, I wrote the book.
	And then she almost fell over.
	She was like, oh, my, I am definitely going to read it.
	And I wasn't trying to, you know, to wave my flag or anything or grandstand.
	So I was able to leave her with something so she could think more about the issue.
	And that actually is a good part of the thing, if you could leave something with people that will be meaningful to them.
	So write some books, carry them around your car.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	Just be a modern-day C.S. Lewis.
	You too?
	No worries.
	Easy.
	Right.
	The point there is I did have something I could give her.
	And if I wasn't an author, I might carry something that I'd give to somebody to get them thinking.
	I'll give them your book.
	What'd you write?
	I have a book called Bears Want to Kill You.
	I don't know.
	You asked.
	Did you really?
	Bears Want to Kill You?
	Yeah.
	Oh, that sounds like fun.
	That's just one of them, yeah.
	Oh, that's just one of them.
	That's a little drop.
	A little drop.
	He's like a modern-day G.K. Chesterton.
	You're like a C.S. Lewis.
	I don't know what that makes me actually.
	I haven't written any spiritual.
	I'm a modern-day Nicholas Sparks, really.
	Do you remember that guy from Mad Magazine?
	What was that guy?
	Alfred E. Newman, the cartoon character?
	No, always on the cover of Mad Magazine.
	Alfred Eneuman.
	What, me worry?
	Yeah, that's right.
	So you're a modern one of the men.
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah, I'll take it to you.
	What?
	What, me worry?
	Yeah, that's me.
	That guy looked exactly the same when I was a kid.
	I don't know what he's eaten, but he ain't growing older.
	He's got some really good diet or something.
	He's just eating a lot of preservatives.
	Just like me eating my Chipotle here while we talk.
	I see it right there.
	Okay, so Latter-day Saints at the door, Jehovah's Witnesses at the door.
	What do you do?
	I let him in.
	I'm thinking, I'm talking like in principle or theoretically.
	I know what most people's...
	I hide.
	I just hide.
	Yeah, that's right.
	You hide, turn the lights off.
	Don't make any noise.
	You know, we're not here.
	But people have to kind of choose their opportunities.
	And a lot of times I'm writing something or I'm off to something.
	And so that's where I'm going to be spending my time.
	But there are a lot of other people who don't have other engagements.
	And frankly, they don't come through our neighborhood very often, hardly ever.
	They probably have your door mark that gets together.
	No, well, I think it's great to ask them to come in.
	And it's great to sit them down and ask them questions.
	Oh, come on in.
	Glad to talk with you.
	Help me help.
	I got lots of questions about Mormonism.
	Now, if you know a little bit about Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, I actually do talk about an encounter in the last chapter that did not go well for me.
	I made some mistakes, and I talk about that the last chapter of the tactics book.
	But I draw them out and ask them questions about their own convictions and how they, basically, how they know that what they believe is actually true.
	Now, I know where the Mormons are going to go.
	They're going to go to the burning in the bosom that you pray for and get the witness about the Book of Mormon.
	But the Book of Mormon is not theological.
	So my impulse is always to think of what questions would I ask.
	Okay.
	So I would ask them, well, how do you know that Mormonism is true?
	Oh, well, read the book and pray and you get the burning in the bosom.
	Okay.
	Well, this book is not theological.
	Even if the Book of Mormon is true, what about the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine of Covenant?
	That's where they get their theology.
	How do you know that's true?
	You're saying Book of Mormon is not theological because it's more a history of Jesus visiting the North American continent.
	And it's got strange things in there.
	It's like it's got horses.
	There were no horses in North America before the Spaniards.
	Pardon me?
	I think there's elephants, too.
	Oh, I don't know about that.
	But there are also chariots.
	There are also chariots.
	And there were no wheels in North America before the Europeans came.
	And when LDS were confronted with this, they said, well, it wasn't really a horse.
	It was more like a deer.
	And it wasn't really a chariot.
	It was more like a sled.
	See where I'm going here.
	Especially this time of year.
	So you've got reindeer pulling a sled.
	Okay.
	I'm not joking.
	I'm not joking.
	is the way they respond because they're kind of caught there there are problems with understanding that book as a but if you pray about it get this feeling then then you know it's from god kind of thing And then they quote James chapter one as their proof text for this thing.
	But I would ask them, have you ever read James?
	I mean, the chapter?
	Oh, yeah.
	What's the chapter about?
	What's going on right there at the beginning of that chapter?
	Well, if you don't know what's going on, how do you know that the way you understand that verse is accurate?
	You know, kind of thing.
	Now, again, it's not to embarrass them, but it's to ask them legitimate questions that go to the heart of the kinds of claims that they're making.
	They are misconstruing this passage out of James.
	He's not talking about how you find out what books are from God.
	He is talking about praying for wisdom to survive difficult circumstances.
	Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that testing your faith produces endurance, etc.
	That's the context.
	But the big point is I'm going to start asking questions to them.
	Now, if you don't know anything about Christian theology that might be contradicting their view, you're going to be limited as to what you can do.
	But what you can do is you can get a clear take on their view.
	So in the game plan, the first question is, gathering information.
	What do you mean by that?
	Tell me your deal.
	What's it all about?
	And then once they tell you their deal, whether it's a Jehovah's Witness or LDS or whether it's an atheist, then there's another question.
	Sorry.
	No, we were supposed to turn our phones off.
	Thanks for the host over here.
	Jump back on the Caleb.
	While you're talking, I was going to try to see if I could find my elephants in the Book of Mormon.
	Trying to prove you wrong.
	I want to add it to your pantheon.
	Yeah, so, yeah, that's right.
	Right.
	So now I lost my train of thought.
	Oh, the second question is, how did you come to that conclusion?
	Okay.
	So once you get a clear take on the point of view, now you want to ask the reasons why the point of view is true.
	They think it's true.
	And just listen, see what they have to say.
	So you believe that all Mormonism is true because what?
	Well, because I have this witness.
	Really?
	And so this is going to prompt more questions for me.
	When you study physics, do you pray the same prayer to see whether the physics book is true?
	Okay, why do you use one standard for this and another standard for that?
	Now, look at, they may have something to say, okay, but I'm just trying to navigate the conversation to get as much information from them about their justification for their view as possible before I start advancing my view.
	Now, I want you to think, because my goal is to put a stone in someone's shoe.
	That's it.
	It's not to lead them to Christ.
	It's just to put a stone in their shoe, to get them thinking, basically.
	So I want you to think about, and your listeners can think about this too.
	How many of you have been confronted by somebody who doesn't hold your view, atheist, skeptic, or whatever, who's asked questions and then you couldn't answer it?
	Now, you might have said, well, you know, something, you know, get behind me, Satan, or whatever, you know, a mic dropping you're out.
	But you might have acted like it didn't bother you.
	But I bet you there were times where inside you're thinking, maybe he's right.
	Maybe he's onto something.
	Maybe I'm mistaken in this.
	And it's a terrible feeling.
	It's a chill that goes up your spine.
	But what did the atheists just do?
	All he did is asked a couple questions that put a stone in the Christian's shoe, a stone of doubt, because the questions went to something that was significant that they couldn't respond with.
	This is all I'm talking about doing in the other direction.
	And it's a legitimate thing to do.
	It is completely legitimate thing to do.
	And it's very, very powerful as well.
	When I was growing up, it always seemed like when people were teaching me how to evangelize, it was the purpose was to pray with somebody to get a conversion.
	There was a big emphasis on numbers.
	Close the deal.
	Yeah, almost a sales pitch thing.
	So it sounds like what you're talking about is something where you're not necessarily concerned with numbers per se or getting a conversion or making a sale.
	No.
	It's almost like you have a bigger picture view of what God is doing and you understand that, okay, God's sovereign.
	I'm giving some questions.
	This guy is thinking about it.
	Right.
	Later, you know, 30 years down the road, you don't know where that person's going to be.
	It's not my business.
	God's in charge of this.
	So if somebody wants a very clear biblical picture of this, go to John 4, woman at the well.
	She's gone.
	She goes back to Psychar to talk to the people.
	The apostles are coming in as she's leaving, and Jesus says to the apostles, you are about to reap where you did not sow.
	So he's acknowledging there in just that one sentence that there is one field, in that case Psychar, but there are two seasons, that is a sowing season and a reaping season, and two kinds of workers.
	Somebody else did the sowing.
	They're going to do the reaping.
	They're going to get the easy pickings, okay?
	And when the fruit is ripe, it just drops into the bucket.
	Harvesting is easy when the fruit is ripe.
	The hard work is what I call the gardening.
	And it's the gardening period where we need more workers.
	And I think, because that's where most of the work is done.
	And I think then probably most Christians are like me, gardeners.
	And so I'm content to garden.
	And most of our evangelism techniques, though, are harvest-oriented.
	That's what you were just describing a moment ago, Kyle.
	It's a harvest.
	They're like, close the deal, you know, swing for the fences, you know, get them to sign on the dotted line.
	How many people did?
	That's why when I say I haven't led anybody to Christ or prayed with anybody, received Christ in 30 years, it's just a shocker to audiences because it's so counterintuitive given the way they, given the model they've received, the tradition that has come down to them.
	And so when I offer them a way of gardening, doing a little here or a little there, and let God worry about the increase, which is precisely what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, I can see it on their faces.
	What I see on their faces is, I can do that.
	I can do that.
	That's doable.
	Especially when I give them a technique, a very easy to use technique that allows them to accomplish that.
	And step by step, three steps basically to the game plan.
	And you don't always get through all three steps.
	It just depends on the circumstances.
	And then I give lots and lots of examples in the first section of the book where I have the game plan of how these things have played out in my own life in actual conversations.
	And that's what gets people kind of excited, thinking, oh, I can do what I'm supposed to do.
	Like you were saying a moment ago, Ethan.
	I can get into play, but I can get into play with a lot of safety and still be effective being a gardener.
	I can get into the shallow end of the pool, so to speak.
	All right.
	Well, that was a great conversation, if I recall correctly.
	And we talked to him some more in the subscriber portion.
	So if you want to hear some more great stuff, didn't you subscribe to the Babylonian?
	Yeah, we got into some questions that you guys submitted from the group.
	And I wanted to, there was one part of that conversation that kind of sat with me that I wanted to defend myself on because I remember I asked Greg this question where I kind of felt like I was a little exposed myself a little bit.
	I was a little like scared to ask it because I was like, you know, I don't go out evangelizing.
	I don't walk around the street with a tractor.
	I don't stand in the corner or I don't, you know, like, hey, have you heard of Jesus?
	But there's a certain part of me that goes like, is that wrong?
	And so I like, and so I brought this question up about, is it enough that like, that you live a certain way, you're willing to talk about it if it comes up, blah, blah, blah.
	And he said no.
	But then the anecdote that he gave was about him being at a coffee shop and it got brought up and he talked about it.
	So to me, his example that he gave was what I mean.
	Like when I brought that up, I was like, if somebody brings it up, you talk about it.
	But like, I'm not going to just be like, I'll have one black coffee, by the way.
	Have you heard of Jesus?
	Yeah, so he was saying that what you're doing, it was fine, right?
	Well, he started off by saying no.
	I would say you're no.
	What you're doing isn't fine.
	Well, he wasn't saying that partially.
	I sense more nuance.
	I sense that he was saying just living your life and never saying anything is probably not.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	But if you're willing and someone brings it up and you start talking about it, then you're doing what you're supposed to be doing.
	Anyway, just for clarification, that's what I meant.
	Maybe I didn't word it that way, but what I was trying to say was if you're always willing and you have, always be ready, like the scripture says always be ready with an answer.
	I mean, it's a thing I think about constantly and I want to talk about it.
	Like, you know, you look at people and you're like, I really want to talk to that guy about this.
	Did I mention my story about the Mormons that came to my door?
	Did you?
	I don't think I did.
	Was there any fist fighting?
	When you were talking about not being willing to talk or being willing to talk about it, but not bringing it up necessarily.
	Yeah, I felt really bad because some Mormons came to my door.
	And it was a couple of girls, and it was like 8 o'clock on a Sunday.
	Girl Mormons?
	Women, yeah.
	Have you ever seen Girl Mormon?
	And it was female women Mormons.
	Women Mormons.
	Yeah.
	And they came to my door, and I usually like to talk to them.
	I've even invited them in.
	We've had like several hour conversations.
	You know, I've still had a lot of different things.
	With other Mormons or with them?
	The different ones.
	And these two came to my door, and it was like eight o'clock at night on a Sunday.
	It was super weird.
	It was dark, it was cold, and they were like on my doorstep.
	And I'm like, and my son was locked in his high chair, and he's crying for more ramen or whatever.
	And I was like, no.
	You know, they say, like, do you want to talk about it?
	And I'm like, no.
	And they're like, well, could we just leave some material?
	I'm like, no.
	And I just closed the door.
	I felt terrible about it for a couple of days.
	I'm just like, I had a chance to talk to people and they didn't.
	But at the same time, it was kind of like.
	Yeah.
	You got to understand if you hear a baby crying in the background.
	All bets are off.
	I could have been nicer.
	So I felt that.
	So if you're listening and you're the two girl Mormons that came to my door, come back.
	I'd like to talk to you somewhere.
	I tried that with some Joba's Witness guys, and they were really nice, but we kept going on and on, and they'd keep coming back and back and back.
	And they would start coming back multiple times a week.
	And I'm just like, I think I was their prize.
	They thought I was going to be their convert.
	You're the white whale.
	Yeah.
	So they kept coming.
	I was like, I finally had one day to be like, I didn't mean that as an inside.
	That was an tasty white whale.
	Finally, one day to be like, guys, I just can't.
	I'm not going to convert to Joe's Witness.
	We're kind of going in circles at this point.
	But we can be friends if you ever want to hang out.
	If you have a cigar.
	Yeah.
	And the funny thing is, I asked them, like, you know, that's one thing about cults is like, you can't actually have friends outside the cult.
	If it's like a cult-ish thing.
	So, like, you can't just go casually have some.
	And that was a test.
	Like, I was like, what can you, I asked them that, and they said, oh, yeah, we can have friends outside.
	And so I said, so after I said, hey, we just be friends outside.
	I don't want to talk about this anymore.
	I never heard from him again.
	Yeah.
	Not saying all of them do that, but that was my experience, bro.
	Sad.
	Yeah.
	So yeah, Greg.
	Yeah, more.
	Do you want to hear more, Greg?
	Okay, then you have to subscribe, and we'll explain how to do that in a bit.
	So we're going to go on to hate mail.
	Hate mail.
	I really miss Adam Ford.
	I really miss Adam Ford.
	You can add that in there.
	Don't add anything later.
	We have to keep that.
	So you want to read your hate mail first?
	And then I'll explain this other thing.
	Did you have a podcast?
	You said you had a podcast.
	Oh, yeah.
	It's on the list.
	We could read it first.
	Okay, we got a renew review.
	And we've had a lot of good reviews for a while.
	So we were overdue for a bad one, and we got like a couple bad ones in a row.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah.
	Did it bring down our rating?
	Because we were like 4.9 or something.
	I don't know.
	I'm sure it did.
	So his name is publicly on Apple iTunes, so I guess William Hubbard says Hubbit.
	Which I actually kind of sympathize with this.
	What voice would this guy talk then?
	I can't stand their voices.
	I literally had to stop listening because of how annoying their voices are.
	With all the cracks and different pitches, these guys sound like a couple of pre-pubescent homeschoolers.
	Maybe he talks like Liam Neeson or something.
	He's like an amazing voice.
	I literally had to stop listening because of how annoying their voices are.
	Our wives are nodding.
	Yes.
	I noticed the last Gadawa one we did, the one we just posted over Christmas, Follow Your Heart.
	You were way more Kermit the Froggy than most of you.
	I think when we have a guest and I'm not feeling like in, it's kind of like my defense.
	You clench up your throat.
	I clench up and I'm like, start talking like, what kind of movies do you want?
	Because it doesn't even sound like you.
	It was weird.
	I know it's the same thing.
	I don't remember when we recorded that, but I must have not been into it.
	I don't know.
	It was something weird.
	It was like our fourth episode with him.
	Yeah, I was comfortable with him.
	Yeah.
	But it was weird.
	It was like.
	Yeah.
	But I can't say anything.
	I'm the guy that the voice that cracks and I'm 39 years old.
	All right.
	So that was our hate mail or did you rose it?
	No, that was it.
	So, Frank Fleming wrote an article that said, quoted Trump as saying, I have done more for Christianity than Jesus.
	And we were kind of skewering Christianity today for kind of virtue signally with being virtue signally with their Trump op-ed.
	And so this was kind of our like, but we get what you're saying.
	You know, this is like our we're balanced, you know.
	Because it took me a second on this one because I realized that Trump had said something kind of similar.
	I did more for evangelical Christians.
	He said something.
	What?
	Any other Republican?
	Yeah, something.
	So it was kind of a play on that.
	And it does sound like something Trump would say.
	And lest you think that only the right gets confused by satire and such, the left took off with this one and it just got snoped this morning.
	So it was pretty.
	It was a respectful snope.
	It was very respectful.
	Snopes doesn't want to.
	They're tiptoeing.
	Yeah, being careful.
	They're walking on eggshells around us.
	So that's good.
	That's how I like all my relationships.
	You're not talking now.
	I'm just trying to process.
	Sometimes you require some extra processing, okay?
	All right, so there were a bunch of tweets on the tweeters about people who were confused by it.
	So it looks like these are all responding to Trump saying, I have done more for Christianity than Jesus.
	So these are people that are sharing that article.
	And then this is like the comment that they leave.
	So I'll read the first one.
	We'll alternate.
	So Trump, I have done more for Christianity than Jesus.
	Okay.
	But did you die?
	Yeah.
	Mike Trump.
	That's a good point.
	He's lost his grip on reality and unraveling like a spool of thread.
	I like that this thread is just like a sweater coming apart.
	Trump is just a devil.
	Wait, go ahead.
	It wouldn't unraveling be usually a sweater analogy, not a spool of thread, right?
	Spool of thread is unraveling.
	Are they raveled?
	A spool of thread is spooled.
	It's not raveled.
	Unspooled.
	And it's supposed to.
	That's what it's supposed to do.
	That analogy is all messed up.
	Trump is just a devil.
	We as a people need to wake up.
	Like a Quaker.
	Trump is just a devil.
	The things he says isn't just entertainment.
	It's the true of the matter.
	What are you?
	A cat meme?
	This is like a racist cat.
	Very racist.
	Ill cats.
	Those are sick.
	Right?
	S-I-C means that the mistakes were in there.
	Yeah, with the little brackets.
	Yellow sick brackets or parentheses.
	Yes.
	Sick.
	Sick.
	Sick, bro.
	I'm sorry.
	I seldom comment on this guy, but it's no wonder America is the laughing stock of the world.
	The leader is an idiot clown.
	Well, we were glad you broke your silence together.
	Yeah, you had to.
	You brought it out.
	I don't always comment on Trump, but when I do, I'm mistaking satire for Riyadh.
	I want to hear.
	Here's another one.
	I want to hear the evangelicals attempt to explain this away.
	It's satire.
	If I say this, am I racist the way that this is said?
	I do not know the race of the person who.
	Yeah, I don't either.
	So I will try not to.
	I'll try to be as neutral.
	He's about to be stuck by lightning.
	You know what's funny?
	It's just stuck.
	And then it says light.
	It doesn't say lightning.
	It's lightening.
	Yeah, lights, E-N-I-N-D.
	Like his skin is going to start turning from orange, you know.
	The lighter glows.
	Stuck by lightning.
	Now, I don't know whether to believe this or not, but if this is true, go ahead and nail the coffin.
	You know where he's going.
	I'm trying to figure out this.
	Like, he's already in the coffin and they're waiting for confirmation.
	Should we nail this thing?
	They're holding up the hammer.
	Like, yep, it's true.
	All right.
	Then they push him off into a hellhole.
	All right, one more.
	I tried to fact-check this with no luck.
	If he actually said this, then he is the Antichrist.
	How did you try to fact-check this?
	Yeah.
	No luck.
	I'm curious how.
	Like, did you just look at the website and go, oh, it's attacked?
	Yeah, because clearly it's at least it only was on.
	Like, the bare minimum you can do is read the name of the webpage.
	Yeah.
	And, like, click on it and say, oh, this is.
	And if you're on Twitter, it says right there in the fake news.
	Yeah.
	I think it actually says fake news you can trust now.
	Yeah.
	So we call ourselves fake news.
	Yeah, proudly.
	Okay, well, that is our show for today.
	A beefy New Year's show.
	A beefy New Year's show with lots of cool predictions and top articles and Greg Kochlin.
	This is going to be kind of a long episode.
	Yeah, it's going to be an epic episode.
	So that's good.
	And we are actually going to continue for a while longer with Greg Kochl.
	Yep.
	And that is just for our subscribers, though.
	So if you want to become a subscriber, if you want your New Year's resolution to be subscribing to the Babylon B.
	It's a good goal.
	Then go to BabylonB.com slash plans and you get full-length ad-free podcasts, a headline form at certain levels, a gift, and more benefits.
	No ads on the website.
	Yeah.
	That's the number one benefit.
	Things are the worst, man.
	Ads are horrible.
	I don't know.
	Please, even if you don't subscribe, we appreciate you listening.
	And please drop us a review on iTunes.
	Share the podcast with a friend who needs to hear the good news of the Babylon Bee podcast.
	All feedback and all love mail, go to podcast at BabylonB.com.
	If you want to keep up with Ethan, you can follow him at Axe Cop on Twitter.
	And you can follow Kyle at his at the Kyle Man, but with underscores in between each of those.
	The underscore Kyle underscore man.
	You probably get a lot more follows than I do out of this.
	Because people are just going, the what?
	Ah, forget it.
	But they might be typing Axe AXCOP because a lot of people spell Axe without an E.
	Yeah.
	Every time I type AXE, it corrects me on Google.
	Apparently, Axe with an E is a British.
	British, yeah.
	But that looks more natural to me.
	When I created Axe Cop, I just like to balance AXE C-O-P.
	And I didn't even realize that AX was the actual way you're supposed to spell it.
	Just to me, it looked balanced out.
	Three letters, three letters.
	Yeah, it looks good.
	AX cop would have bombed horribly.
	No.
	Yeah, it never would have taken off.
	Okay, so anyway.
	Bye, everybody.
	Goodbye.
	Kyle and Ethan would like to thank Seth Dylan for paying the bills, Adam Ford for creating their job, the other writers for tirelessly pitching headlines, the subscribers, and you, the listener.

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