In the ninth episode of the Babylon Bee podcast, editor-in-chief Kyle Mann and creative director Ethan Nicolle are joined by Kevin Max from DC Talk to discuss what people think when they find out you're a Jesus Freak, whether or not he still loves rap music, and who came up with the famous lyric "HAO HAO HAOOW!" They also discuss the Christian music industry, the odd world of Christian celebrity, and Kevin's prolific solo career. Kyle and Ethan also discuss a few news stories and read some hate mail as usual. Links we refer to in the show with relevant timestamp: Stories of the Week (5:16) Study Shows Leading Cause Of Gun Violence Is Those You Disagree With Politically (15:57) Experts Warn We Have Only 12 Years Left Until They Change The Timeline On Global Warming Again (21:25) Museum Of The Bible To Display Original Golden Tablets Containing 'Jesus Freak' Lyrics (28:48) Interview: Kevin Max (part 1) Ryan Tedder's Kevin Max Impersonation Kevin's Website Kevin Max on Twitter Buy Kevin's Album Black Sheep Of The Fold Kevin Max On Spotify Kevin Max On Instagram (51:36) Hate Mail Paid Subscriber Portion (56:05) Kevin Max Interview (Part 2) (1:11:38) Democratic Socialist Convention Forced To Communicate Via Interpretive Dance To Avoid Offending Any Attendees (1:18:16) White Privilege Card Now Good For 10% Off At Whole Foods (1:21:53) Unused headlines! Become a paid subscriber! at https://babylonbee.com/plans
In a world of fake news, this is news you can trust.
Checking facts and taking names.
You're listening to the Babylon V with your hosts, Kyle Mann and Ethan Nicole.
Yes, this is the Babylon V podcast, and this is Kermit the Frog with my friend, Squeaky Voice.
Squeaky McCrackerson.
Squeaky McCrackerson.
Wow.
We're off to a good start here.
Yes, we are.
We're energized.
Yeah.
Because we just talked to Kevin Max from DC Talk.
And you're going to get to hear that a little later on.
It was such a good conversation.
He was my favorite DC Talk guy.
Yeah, Toby Who?
Yeah.
Toby Wack.
Yeah.
Michael Wait.
Wait.
Who are you talking about?
No, I did like him because I liked how he sang all like, it was like RB Kurt Cobain.
He was like grunge, but like R ⁇ B. He's actually got a really good voice.
He has a really good voice.
And yeah, we're talking about that amazing voice, those pipes of his.
Yeah, DC Talk, I mean, it's a big part of a lot of our past.
And it was a big part of our Christian upbringing for a lot of us.
Yeah, I think you guys are going to enjoy this.
In the meantime, we've also got a few stories we're going to talk to you about.
And one of those has to do with DC Talk.
So a lot of DC Talk, a lot of Christian 90s stuff.
It's a DC Talk episode.
It's kind of a DC Talk episode.
So Ethan, you just went on a big road trip.
Did you guys bump Jesus Freak and New Thang and Supernatural the entire time?
That's the sad thing about, because I went on like an over 2,000-mile road trip with my family, four kids.
And the sad thing about this day and age in technology is that we can't force the whole family to listen to the same thing anymore.
Yeah.
Like I listen to my music up on the stereo, but everyone's got their headphones on.
They're listening to all their different things.
They're watching movies.
They're watching YouTube on the road.
It's like, can't we get a break from YouTube in this horrible world we live in?
No.
We've got one of those DVD players in our van.
Like the five-inch screen that's in the middle everyone looks at it.
And it's a little disappointing because I want to share like some of my favorite music with my kids.
Yeah.
And they're just watching shizam, you know.
Well, I bought one of those DVD players where you put two screens on the back of the two seats, and it was so complicated to hook up, I couldn't get it to both play the same movie.
And they kept, and the seats didn't fit the thing they gave me.
So the screens ended up on the floor a whole bunch, and someone stepped on one of them and broke it.
Oh, geez.
So it was just a, it was a sham.
Those things are a sham.
Don't buy them.
Yeah, we used to have those.
It's like the aftermarket DVD player thing.
The highlight, which I think we may have talked about at the DC Talk interview, was that we stopped at a little farm and stayed.
We did like a whole bunch of Airbnbs on this trip.
And one of them, they had like two donkeys, a pig, a bunch of chickens, and the pig bit my daughter.
And that was very traumatizing.
Didn't break the skin, but it was horrifying.
Has she started to exhibit any signs?
She's afraid of pigs now.
Like she thinks they're mean.
She used to love them.
It was her favorite animal.
Her first noise she learned how to make was she go because she thought a pig noise was funny.
And so it was pretty traumatizing for like her whole life to think pigs are so great.
And then she got bit by one right in the arm.
Well, I'm thinking maybe she's starting to exhibit some pig power.
Oh, you think she's starting to act?
Yeah, it's a radioactive pig.
You could be.
I'm going to go over with my pig noise here.
Spider pig.
Yeah.
Spider pig.
She's able to chase chickens and eat garbage.
Yes.
I had another thing about that trip that I Did you get Oh, yeah, we stayed in one Airbnb.
I want to see what you guys think about this.
We stayed in one Air and B ⁇ B.
It was the most expensive one that we had.
And it did say in the thing, it said one bathroom, three bedrooms for six people.
When we got there, we have four kids.
One's a 12-year-old girl.
A 12-year-old girl needs her own bathroom.
We got there in the master bedroom.
There was a bathroom door, but there was a code on it, and you could not unlock it.
So we had one bathroom for the whole family.
So I'm like texting the guy.
I'm like, there's another bathroom here?
We can't have it.
Can you open it?
He's like, sorry, it's dirty.
We got it.
I just felt like I hadn't clearly known.
And he's like, hey, we told you there was one bathroom.
I'm like, yeah, but I've now been on like nine of these with my 12-year-old daughter and my other kids.
And you need two bathrooms when you have a family of six people.
Yeah.
What do you think?
Are you okay, Ethan?
I was frustrated.
Well, maybe they had bodies or a meth lab in there.
Yeah.
I want to know.
That'd be a blessing that it was locked.
He's like, we were clear.
I'm like, but now that I know that it's there, I'm mad.
So did you guys take the coast or did you just go up the five?
We didn't go exactly on the coast because we went to the coast was our final destination.
Yeah.
So we did like Ashland, the mountain outside Ashland.
We did Grants Pass on the way back down.
We did stopped in Reading.
Yeah, just kind of a lot of random stops, little cabins in the woods.
Did you worship at Bethel Church, Reading?
Did not, no.
Okay.
Get some gold dust.
Anyway, that's the trip in a nutshell.
It was cool.
We got to see my long-lost sister, everybody, my dad.
So it was a big family gathering.
Very cool.
All right.
Should we get into our weekly news?
Or do you want to talk about your week at all?
Do you do anything cool?
No.
Okay.
All right.
Weekly news.
Every week there are stories.
These are some of them.
All right.
And our first story of the week, it's always somber trying to make jokes in the midst of like very horrifying realities.
This is the week.
I mean, this is going to air or air.
Air is a funny word to use for podcasts.
It's going to come out in about a week from now.
The vinyl pressing is going to come out in about a week here.
But yeah, so this is a week where there were two horrible shootings in one day.
And then there was another shooting just a few days before that.
So the first there was one in Gilroy and then there was two.
There was one in El Paso and there was one in Dayton.
And just horrifying everybody.
I remember I sat at my computer just kind of in shock like that whole night.
Just, I don't know why these ones hit me harder than most.
And I don't know why I made the mistake of sitting there on Twitter and just getting more and more frustrated with the garbage people were saying.
I should know better.
And when these things happen, I can't tweet about it.
I don't know what it is.
Like I'll try to write a tweet and stop.
And it just seems so like, it seems like there's a lot of people that it comes very natural to them to just suddenly start tweeting about things about government stuff.
Anyway, so eventually the next morning I pitched this headline.
Study shows leading cause of gun violence is those you disagree with politically.
And that's, I mean, that just kind of encapsulated Twitter.
It was just everybody, like, you never hear.
I mean, on one side, I like not hearing the gunman's name or seeing his picture, but to constantly just act as if he's just a puppet of the right wing or whoever it is that you hate, it really gets exhausting.
It gets so exhausting.
Yeah, and it's so inconsistent.
You know, when the guy, when the gunman is on the opposite political side from you, you know, you immediately connect it to their ideology.
Right.
And you say, well, it was Trump for inciting, you know, with his inciting rhetoric or, you know, it was the left with their rhetoric.
Yeah.
It's hard for us.
This is what you wanted, Trump.
This has been, you know, and they act like we have been having school shootings since the late 90s.
Like, I was in high school when the one in Springfield happened, which everybody kind of considers, even though there had been ones before that, that was like the Kip Kinkle shooting was kind of the one that people feel launched, started all this.
Colin Bine was next.
But it's been going for a long time.
And it just, the short-sightedness to act like this just happened because of Trump.
It's a bizarre.
It's a bizarre to really believe that that's really why.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very rarely is the response that people have to a shooting like this introspection of like, what am I doing that what am I doing personally to love my neighbor that may save us from something like this?
That was the one tweet that I did eventually tweet out.
And it was interesting because it's the Bible verse that you hear constantly.
And it seems like such a basic rule of life, no duh, Sunday school kind of thing, love your neighbor.
And when I was looking at Twitter and I was looking at what was going on and how much hate and how this event had caused so much hate among people, like the two shooters were one was like hard right, apparently, based on the manifesto that I keep seeing where it allegedly, so I don't know if they've linked it to him or not, but that it was, you know, it's white nationalist Trump supporter.
The other guy was like pro-antifa left-winger.
Right.
Both in the same day.
So everybody could like pick their shooter that they wanted to like, you know, I had pitched a headline where you could plaster their face in a baseball bat and just beat your political opponent to the death with them with that with that, whichever shooter you identify.
We didn't run that headline.
Yeah, we did not.
But just the idea that we didn't, so much horror has already been created and now we're just beating, we're just beating each other up.
I thought there was, there's been a couple instances of this, but I think specifically after the Ohio shooting, there were the Ohio governor was giving an address and these protesters come in and they just start chanting, do something, do something.
And I thought it was an interesting portrait of our cultural moment that you have people that rather than looking at themselves and saying, what is the evil in myself or in my movement that needs to be addressed?
It was people looking to the government and saying, what are you going to do about this?
What can I do about this?
And it's frightening in a way.
I mean, that's human nature.
You know, you look at others, you look to your rulers, you say, what can these people do?
Yeah, and to act like your hands are clean, like to just for this whole culture to act like their hands are clean.
It's just a few lawmakers in Washington that have chosen not to enact.
They act like it's so easy too.
Oh, if there was just a few laws you just passed, we could just have all the guns taken away.
It's like, to me, I always there's people that think, oh, just get rid of all the illegal immigrants and all everything will be great on the other side.
Yeah, on the other side.
And it's like, okay, number one, that's nearly impossible.
Like, how are you going to really do that?
You'd have to have an overarching magnet that pulls a giant.
Yeah, it'd have to be a big giant magnet that either can find illegal immigrants or guns.
I mean, you have to have like a Hitler-like authoritarian rule to pull something that off.
It's just, and there's always the one guy, hey, here's an idea.
Get rid of all the guns.
There's always the Twitter guy that says that.
It's like, yeah, good job.
You're right.
Yeah, what's the thing?
They always intro their tweets by saying, this is simple.
Yeah, this is simple.
Or they'll conclude this tweet and say, yeah, this isn't hard.
Yeah.
This isn't hard.
And it's like, well, maybe it is.
How about this?
Guns have existed for a long, long time.
Even the AR-15 has been around since the 50s.
All this started.
Like, that's the question that gets overlooked, like, ignored.
Like, what is it about our culture that has shifted so that suicides are rising and these killings that are like they're narcissism killings?
These people are all about themselves.
There's a narcissism that's growing in our culture.
And it coincides with the internet.
And I'm not saying I have the answers, but those are the questions I want.
When people talk about that, that's what I want to get into and I want to understand.
And those are the conversations that seem to be avoided the most.
Anyway, hilarious podcast.
So funny.
And I don't want to necessarily come down on these people who are chanting something like, do something.
I think it really speaks to this angst, though, that there's this ache and this recognition that the culture is sick, but the solutions and what do we do and who do we turn to?
Those are the questions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I get it.
I get there.
There's a visit.
Everybody kind of just goes to this visceral response in these situations.
And, you know, for some people, it's just like, if you're not into guns, you don't, you know, if you don't understand gun culture, you're never around it.
You're just like, why the heck do we even have these things?
Get rid of them all.
You know, I totally get that gut reaction.
But yeah, it's just like there's no, obviously, we're not going to.
We've started a giant topic to start the show off with.
There's so much to say.
We'll talk more about it in the subscriber portion or something.
There's just so much to say.
I don't remember my first.
The first shooting, my first shooting was as a kid, right?
My first shooting.
The first shooting I really remember was Columbine.
Yeah.
And I don't remember.
I mean, there wasn't obviously this widespread social media.
I don't remember the discussion.
Like, I don't remember if it immediately turned into gun control.
You know, but it is interesting to me that whenever there's a tragedy, it's just instant.
You know, yeah, back then, I mean, I was like in my early 20s when that all well, when Columbine goes around 1819, I was just out of high school.
But the one in Thurston was the first, you know, just a few kids technically that got killed, but a lot of kids got shot.
And I lived just two hours away from that.
So it was really close to home.
But yeah, Columbine, yeah, it was interesting.
It was all about the video.
That's one thing that people are saying.
You know, there's people blaming video games again.
That's what the big blame back then was.
Video games and trench coats.
Yeah, the trench coats.
Yeah, they started banning those at school.
I remember that.
Yeah, they blame the trench coats.
That's always the bizarre thing.
We blame the tool.
Oh, it's the gun's fault.
That's the trench coats' fault.
Well, I think there's this helplessness, right?
Because you see this horrible evil.
Yeah.
And you say, what are we going to do?
And you see the government taking action, even if it's meaningless, banning bump stocks after Vegas, or whatever.
And it's like, a bump stock's really not going to make this worse or better.
It's just something that we can point to.
We need a scapegoat.
We need something to say, just ban that and it'll all go away.
Yeah.
So if we just ban satire.
Just ban satire.
That's all we need to do.
So anyway, pray for the communities.
Yeah, this is an interesting one.
Like Ethan was saying, doing humor at a time in the middle of a shooting is tough.
It's tough.
But you also really want to say stuff.
There's stuff you want, there's points you want to make.
Like one of the ones that we did do a couple days later, but was about just the idea of our culture.
We embrace moral relativism.
And then the moment something like this happens, everybody's tweeting in this moral absolutism.
Yeah, this is evil.
This is absolutely evil, unspeakable evil.
Like, I can't imagine anybody being like, well, relatively, in another culture, you can imagine being completely moral that someone would walk into a school and shoot everybody.
That language just goes out the door.
And it just begs the question.
Like, if you're just teaching people that you do you, good and evil are just words, good and evil are just points of view.
But then suddenly something like this happens.
Like, is there complicity in the idea of moral relativism in leading people to believe not only that we're like meaningless creatures, that we're just bacteria on the earth, you know, and ultimately pointless existence.
And then also the idea of this, you know, we're just evolved creatures, there's survival of the fittest, all that kind of stuff.
And there is no true morality.
There's no true good and evil.
I mean, that's like general stuff we're all kind of taught by our culture.
And then when something like this happens, everybody's like, why are you evil?
Anyway.
That's the you sound like that's my frustration.
You sound like a dark lord of the Sith, believing in absolutes.
Absolutes.
Yeah.
You probably don't know that reference, but it's from Star Wars.
Yeah, I got it because you did a joke about it this week, and I was like, oh, yeah, I think I remember that.
Yeah.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Right.
One of the great lines from the prequels.
The great lines.
Which is just brilliant.
It's an absolute in itself.
I love it.
It is an absolute.
Yeah.
Most things against absolutes are absolute statements.
Yeah, which is interesting.
Okay, so let's move on.
Next story.
Experts have warned that we only have 12 years left until they change the timeline on global warming again.
So get ready.
Because in 12 years, the world will be flooded with new dates.
New dates, yeah.
do you remember your first time you were told like given a timeline as a kid for when the world would end you know i don't even think we really were worried about global warming and climate change until al gore and the uh no because i remember when i was like probably 10 I remember being told that by the time I was an adult, there'd be no gasoline left.
The world would be unlivable.
I was told that in early, like in the late 80s.
Well, I do remember that, but it wasn't specifically climate change.
It was all the rainforests are going to be used up.
Yeah.
There'll be no more drinking water.
It was definitely environmental alarmism.
Right.
You know, and you remember that movie Ferngully?
Yes.
Yeah.
That really like encapsulated.
a generation encapsulated the whole I mean that's what we were taught in public school growing up all the time It's just this alarmism of.
And to hate big business.
Oh, the big log trucks.
Yeah, I always love that.
Like, there's the good spirits of the forest and then like this evil guy that's like, I'm going to cut down trees just for fun.
On our road trip, we drove through tons of trees up through Oregon and Northern California.
And there was one mountainside that had been cleared out by log trucks or clearing out.
And my daughter, of course, focuses in on that one.
Oh, my gosh, it's so terrible.
They're tearing down.
You see all the trees that we've passed and they grow.
They grow.
More grow back.
I talked to a guy up in Washington who deals with ecological issues, environmental issues from a free market perspective.
Interesting.
Which is interesting because you don't really hear a lot of conservatives saying, I care about the environment.
But one of the points that he made was the people that are passing laws about the environment live in big cities.
Yeah.
And then the people that have to follow them actually live out in the wilderness.
Yeah.
You know, where it actually is.
Right.
Yeah, because if you go around New York, it's a completely different, like you get, you almost get why people are insane on this topic.
Yeah.
When they start talking about pollution and overcrowding and overpopulation and all these things that come out of big cities.
Well, yeah, in New York, all that's true.
I was up at a political conference there and this girl was a, she owned, she was like the third or fourth generation that owned a tree farm in Washington out in the middle of nowhere.
And she was kind of like, look, we don't really need to follow environmental laws because we take care of our trees anyway.
She's like, because if we don't, if we just destroy all the trees that we own, there's no trees for my kids, you know, and my grandkids.
That's true.
Like, what do loggers have to gain by wiping all the trees out?
By just being this evil guy, smashing trees just because.
I hate those trees.
Yeah.
And obviously there's some excesses that some corporations can go to in pursuit of profits.
I just think that I think sometimes it's still a little prolonged.
The climate change thing is interesting.
Definitely on the left, it becomes a religious eschatology of here's the timeline.
And at the end of the industry, I think Christians obviously can overreact.
And a lot of times, especially on the right, we'll say every mention of any climate change is a hoax.
Yeah, anybody on the right, Christian or not, there's a knee-jerk.
And to some extent, I get it.
It's like, okay, so if we created a, or if we had some scientific evidence that it just so happened that you had to give all your money to Republicans and follow all of our laws, like do everything we say, then you'd be suspect if you're on the left.
Well, yeah, and that's what makes people suspicious is that it's never just this cold scientific fact.
Hey guys, there's a problem.
Yeah.
We need to talk about solutions.
It's, you know, there's a problem.
Give all your money to me.
If you don't, you hate the world and you want to kill everybody.
Yeah, give control of the economy over to the government.
It's always just hand in hand.
It really makes people suspicious.
And they're really doing themselves a disservice.
Yeah, and I completely believe that there's a large amount of truth to the evidence for all this.
But I also believe that just like growing up, we had all these giant warnings about what the world was going to be like by the time I was the age I am now.
And, you know, there probably were some predictions that maybe were kind of right.
But in general, technology changes, things change.
Well, I mean, and think about it from a marketing perspective.
Saying the world is going to end in 12 years if you don't vote for me is a lot more effective than saying there's going to be some major changes coming to the climate in the next 100 to 200 years.
Yeah.
You know, which is probably more accurate, right?
You know, water's going to rise.
Yeah.
I mean, that seems to be the part of it that seems to be the most feasible.
The water is going to be rising over time.
We have to adjust to that.
But anyway, I'm no expert, and I'm not trying to pretend to be one.
So basically, the liberals are lying to you about climate change and, you know, by a Hummer.
This portion brought to you by General Motors.
It's a topic brought to you by people that are always saying you should be more skeptical when it comes to things like your faith, but then when it comes to this, no skepticism is allowed.
Yeah, it's such a religious thing.
It's so wild.
Museum of the Bible to display original golden tablets containing Jesus Freak lyrics.
This was an old article from 2016 or so.
There's a lot going on here, you know.
Because there actually was or is now a Museum of the Bible.
It wasn't quite open yet when this.
Do they have golden tablets there?
Is this a Mormon museum?
Well, yeah.
So then there's almost this Mormon element of the golden tablets, you know, that the Book of Mormon was supposedly handed down on.
And then you've got Jesus Freak.
There's just so much going on.
This is a real layers.
A real mishmash.
So Jesus Freak, I mean, that was definitely the power anthem for the Christian kids growing up.
The Christian 90s kid?
Yeah.
So we're each going to give our salvation story regarding Jesus Freak and DC Talk here.
And then we're going to talk to Kevin Mack.
So this is going to be a good little segue.
I have an uncle and aunt, and my uncle's a pastor.
He's a Calvary Chapel pastor.
I might have mentioned him.
I might have mentioned him before.
I don't know if I know that.
And growing up, they always gave me my birthday every year.
i would say oh i want video games or i want you know whatever it was legos and it would always give me something like like the christian version Not the Christian version, but they would give me like a Christian t-shirt.
Okay.
Or whatever.
And so one year they gave me New Thang, the DC Talk album, New Thang on cassette tape.
And I think the following year, they may have given me Jesus Freak, you know, on cassette or CD or something.
And that was my introduction.
And I remember New Thang, we listened to it over and over.
We memorized all the raps.
I can still do them.
You can do them right now.
Let's hear it.
I'm down with the one who was known as the Sun.
Nice.
From the G to the O to the D, never know.
Yeah.
So I was never that deep in.
I was never really that into.
Oh, sorry, you're still going.
Toby Mac and the Mac is back, no slack on the DC track that's jacked.
Is that old or new?
Beyond comprehension.
I believe that I failed to mention that.
Yeah, that was the.
So New Thang was like this.
It was a pretty good album, but it was still, I mean, it still kind of reeks of early 90s.
Reeks is probably the wrong word.
It definitely was a product of his.
He's right in that.
Yeah, it's a progress time.
Jesus Freak was, to me, is like a timeless album.
Yeah.
I listened to it the other day.
You know, it's just like, so good.
Oh, yeah.
I think it's such a good album.
That's good.
Yeah.
There's so many layers.
I mean, yeah, I'm not trying to completely knock it.
I was so deep into that.
Are you a skeptic?
Are you a Jesus freak skeptic?
I loved it when it came out.
I mean, I was like, well, I remember I was kind of in this weird spot because I had become a Christian only kind of recently.
And I was like a little bit embarrassed to be getting into the Christian music stuff because I had grown up very secular music.
But I actually remember not wanting to like Jesus Freak and then I actually did kind of like it.
I was like, I really liked it.
I liked Kevin Max's voice a lot.
Like, I remember I really liked his voice.
I wanted to sing like that.
But that was mainly it for me.
I mean, I didn't have a deep DC Talk upbringing.
I remember when I was like around nine, my friend was listening to it.
And he's like, oh, yeah, it's Christian rap.
So cool.
And he was explaining that DC stands for Deliverers of Christ, I think.
It's Decent Christian Talk.
Oh, is it?
Yeah.
He said it was Delivers of Christ.
I don't think Delivers of Christ.
I've carried that my whole life.
Deliverers of Christ talk.
Hold on.
Now we've got to find out real check.
This is like fourth grade, 19.
I like how we carry these rumors with us.
89 or something.
Yeah, I was nine years old, 89.
The name, okay, so they originally called DC Talk and the One Way Crew.
The name was later simplified to DC Talk.
But what's DC stand for?
And then it says, which came to stand for decent Christian talk.
Really?
Though originally DC was from Washington, D.C.
Oh, it was from DC.
That's.
Where Toby Mac was rapping.
Huh.
So apparently it comes from D.C.
Well, you know, this is Wikipedia, so who knows?
So originally, that's true.
Yeah, you know, our Wikipedia page is not accurate.
That's fascinating.
So originally it was a completely secular band name, and then it got Christianified later.
Tangent, but our Wikipedia page quotes some random guy.
Like that got quoted in some article, and it says, even if a Babylon Beast story's intention is to entertain, the effect could still be misinformation if the headline is believable enough.
This random thing like all this misinformation and fake news and stuff.
Drop that in there.
It's like completely random in the Wikipedia article.
I don't even know who this guy is.
Who is this guy?
Yeah, so DC Talk, Jesus Freak, the album, I think it touched on a lot of cultural issues.
Like if you listen to lyrics to something like colored people, you know, which is like in itself, you like look at a name like that, you're like, how do you get that on a Christian album?
But it's interesting to me that they were willing to speak to these cultural issues that Christian music tended to play it safe on.
I saw DC Talk Live at the Pomona Fairgrounds.
Oh, yeah.
I think it was like the Jesus Freak Tour or it may have been just something after that.
It was like a time when everybody was a freak.
Like they had like corn was around.
Freak was a freak on a leash.
Everybody was some kind of freak.
Like that was the cool thing was to be to see yourself as an outcast and a freak.
And I don't know if they, I don't know if that just was like because they were in that time.
It just kind of naturally they created or if you know, I don't know they were capitalizing on it, but that was just the that was the spirit of the times.
I'm a freak.
It's like post-grunge going into this like rap core era.
Yeah, and I think there was this kind of non-conformist thing among the youth.
There always is.
But I mean, in the 90s, it was kind of, I think for me, it really, you know, I kind of adopted that Jesus freak label and it really felt like it felt like it was something like we're growing up and now I'm no longer just doing my parents' lame religion.
Right.
Now I'm a Jesus freak, you know.
And it was in some ways it kind of was true.
Like it felt like Christianity was, you were playing along with society being a Christian when we were really young.
It felt like it was a majority thing.
And that was, at least in my experience, that was when culture kind of started to shift.
And you really were being kind of punk rock if you still held your beliefs.
And I really feel I feel like it's more punk rock now to be like a conservatively Christian than anything else right now.
I believe in God.
Though actually, you know, I say that the president is a conservative, so he's in name only.
I mean, he's a Republican.
He flips a coin.
He's whatever he is.
Yeah, he flips a coin.
Half of his face is boiled in acid.
Hey, I pitched that headline.
We're going to do it.
I'm waiting on the Photoshop, man.
All right.
Well, should we just get into that?
So that's a good segue.
So, yeah, if you don't know who DC Talk is, they were huge Christian rap, rock, grunge, alternative.
I would say they defined a style of an entire genre of Christian music.
Yeah, I agree.
And that was in the 90s.
Kevin Max has then, you know, the group split up after Supernatural, which was an album in the early 2000s.
And Kevin Max was one-third of DC Talk.
And he's done his own independent crazy music thing since then.
He's just put out a ton of cranks out albums like quicker than the Beatles, you know, when they were pumping out four albums a year or whatever.
And yeah, it's just really interesting guys.
So we're about to have a cool conversation with them.
And here it is.
Presenting an exclusive Babylon B interview.
Everybody, we are sitting down with a legend in the Christian music industry.
His name is Kevin Max from the band you might have heard of him.
DC Talk.
How you doing, Kevin?
First of all, legend is questionable, but I'm doing really good.
And yeah, man, I'm just down the road in my RV with my kids, living life and just kind of being the bohemian hippies that we are.
So I've got a question, and we are hard-hitting journalists here at the Babylon B.
And we're not going to take this easy on you.
Right.
Do you still love rap music?
Like, very rarely do I listen to rap music.
And even like back in the day, before I even became a part of DC Talk, I was, you know, I was into New Wave, you know, in the 80s.
I was into Joy Division and The Cure and David Bowie.
So when I joined in DC Talk, I had no clue what was going on.
So you were.
Yeah, I never really dug the rap until I got to know the DC Talk scenario.
And then I was like, okay, well, this is interesting.
You say that I love rap music.
You claim that you always have and you always will.
I had to sing along with that song.
I sang the choruses, but I didn't write the song.
So there's that at least.
But yeah, there's certain types of rap music actually even today that I like.
I'm kind of a fan of Snoop Dogg.
Like gangster rap.
You like really hardcore gangster rap?
I don't even know if it's hardcore gangster rap.
It's like Lil Wayne, hardcore gangster rap.
I guess he is, right?
I'm not the authority on gangster rap.
Straight out of Compton.
Did they ever pressure you to rap more in DC Talk?
You're like, Kevin, come on, man, rap more.
We're rapping.
Yeah, they knew better than that.
They never asked me to do that.
Essentially, the only rapper that I even knew at that time.
I was guessing the only rapper you knew is T-Bone.
Do you know T-Bone?
I didn't know him either.
I think I met him a couple of times at some festivals, like when we were starting.
But honestly, I didn't even know anybody famous, like running DMC or anybody like that.
So Tobey was like the first one I ever met.
And I was like, okay, this rap thing, I guess it's successful and people like it.
Yeah, because I remember I was like nine when I first heard DC Talk.
And you guys definitely did that.
It was kind of like that fresh print style of rapping.
It was like the early 90s.
Beastie Boys.
I guess you guys were late 80s.
You guys got going, right?
Yeah, Beastie Boys.
It was actually, yeah, we formed in 87, 88.
So, yeah, Beastie Boys run DMC.
I think for Toby, too, he was like picking from LL Cool J's kind of vibes, too.
You know, it's like a lot of different things going on.
Like I said, I was into rock and roll, so it was really strange for me to show up in this amalgamation of a hip-hop pop, whatever it was at the beginning.
I just kind of went along with it, man.
It was fun.
We got to dress in matching outfits and wear patent leather shoes and learn dance moves and stuff.
So what did people think when they heard that you were a Jesus freak?
Oh, man.
Who writes these questions?
Seriously?
Well, we're just trying to source your actual lyrics.
Yeah, what did they think?
Did they think?
How'd it go?
Oh, man.
How'd that end up?
Wow.
I'd have to go back to 90, mid-90s on that one.
I think they thought we were crazy.
And, you know, the record label at the time, you know, when we signed with Virgin, I mean, they were big into the song, you know, and they thought that, hey, this is going to be cool because this could actually work in the general market as well.
And that's why we had this guy named Simon Maxwell do the video.
And he had done videos for Nine Inch Nails and a lot of other general market acts.
And so I think we were, you know, that everybody was caught up in this grunge movement, whereas we were kind of a band that kind of played to a lot of different styles on one album.
So that was just one song.
And then there were several other elements on the album that didn't necessarily go as heavy into the grunge category as that did.
But yeah, when we first started playing that song, I mean, it was an immediate, like, polarizing reaction, I think.
Either people really dug it or they had no clue what was going on.
That was more of a new thing than new things.
It was.
New things.
At one point, at what point in the writing of Jesus Freak did somebody suggest the lyric?
Ha, ha, ha.
That one.
You do that?
Is that yours?
That was actually me improvising, yeah.
And I don't even know if that could be categorized as a lyric.
It's more like a background.
Yeah, it's like a that was that was me improvising on in the moment.
That was kind of like my wolf howl back then.
You know, I used to kind of howl during the shows too.
And so I had a limited amount of time that I could howl on that track, so it became clipped, you know?
Yeah.
More like less howling than just kind of barking, really.
Yeah.
You know, that's great.
I'm glad that we just got you to do the how, how, how on the air.
It's very small.
That was our one goal here.
I could do it for real, but it might, you know, it might distort in the phone.
I'm not sure.
Yeah.
Hey, I'm willing.
If you're willing to try, we would love that.
I'll hold my headphones away from my ears a little bit.
Let's see how this one goes.
And then if people want to hear another one, then I'll let it rip.
Okay.
Okay.
So I heard you live on a farm in Tennessee.
You still live on a farm?
I don't.
I owned a farm for a year and a half.
We tried the farm life.
We bought a horse farm.
We had three horses.
And I grew up riding horses.
I grew up in Michigan.
My dad had like a hobby farm growing up.
And so I wanted to try out the farm thing.
And it didn't go very well.
I spent most of the time in the recording studio.
And my wife would always come over and say, hey, have you fed the horses yet?
And I'm like, oh, crap.
And hey, have you cleaned out the horse stalls yet?
Oh, crap.
And so it was like a never-ending, hey, have you done this?
And I'm like, oh, crap.
So I decided that it was a bit too much responsibility.
But the real, honest, serious reason was that it was an hour and 15 hour and change away from Nashville or Franklin or anything.
And so we were really out there.
We were out in the middle of nowhere on the top of a hill.
Actually in a little town called Centerville.
It just became really tough for my wife to kind of go back and forth with all the kids.
I've got four kids.
And then also keeping up on the horses.
Yeah, four kids and then throw some horses and some pigs and donkeys and whatever else you had out there.
That's a lot of work.
We had no pigs.
We had no donkeys.
I was at a farm recently and a pig bit my daughter just the other day.
Just throwing that in there for conversation.
It was crazy.
She was talking to me.
I was trying to be aggressive, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it looks so nice.
It had a big smile on its face.
She petted and then it bit her.
So on your farm, I'm just curious.
Did you have a rooster on your farm?
No.
No roosters.
See, I was hoping that the rooster would go.
Well, actually, I guess you could do it.
You could do the ho, ho, ho, ho, in the morning.
We had an alarm that would go off, I think, through a cellular phone, which woke us up.
I think that's how we got up on the farm.
Oh, really?
You had a cellular phone that just beeped for everybody?
I think it played Jesus Freak in that section.
It did the ho-ho, really?
That's a really great idea, though.
I think I'm going to try to see if there's a section of that song I could make into an alarm.
That would be amazing.
Or like a ringtone, right?
Yeah, the ho-ho would be a great ringtone.
I was curious, just like some political questions.
Yeah, you want to get political?
It's a great idea.
We have a lot of random questions written down here.
If Kyle can handle the politics, I'll go for it.
We didn't write me down.
No, like I said, I'm a fan of the B.
So, you know.
And you have described yourself as more progressive.
Keep going.
You've described yourself as more progressive and as a Christian goth hippie.
So that impresses me that you would like the bee.
See, I've done my digging.
So would you have as a Christian goth hippie?
Does the bee ever rub you the wrong way?
No.
Well, you're a nationalist.
I've never really.
I mean, you know, if you guys went more the Republican route, that would bother me.
Well, we've been called far right by many people.
I mean, the more kind of right-wing conservative you become, it's going to kind of see me further and further in the rearview window.
But, you know, because I'm kind of left, I guess.
Yeah, I mean, I tell people that I'm not very political.
I'm into political anarchy.
I'd love to have absolutely no presidents.
Oh, man.
Speaking of no government.
I think we kind of.
Everybody live on a hippie farm.
Oh, yes.
I'm down.
We're all going to move to Kevin's hippie farm.
This is awesome.
Kevin from President.
And see, everybody goes, oh, he's socialist.
And I'm like, no, I'm just being social.
Take the iss out of it.
Well, yeah.
I mean, isn't there a difference between the government forcing you to do that and you go far?
Yeah, if we're all doing it freely, that's way different.
If the government's forcing us all to.
If you go freely, it's called utopia.
Man, I like that.
Or complete anarchy.
I think the bee is not trying to necessarily be like Republican or conservative.
It's trying to make fun of the whole process.
So I guess it all could see why that would resonate with you.
No, that's good.
Satire is beautiful.
We need more of it.
Especially in, and I don't consider myself in Christian music anymore as a solo artist, but as a member of DC Talk, absolutely.
It's like Christian music needs so much satire just to kind of, you know, balance it out.
It needs to be so satirical that every artist becomes like Steve Taylor overnight just to kind of balance it out.
Well, it's funny the way things have shifted over time because I think there was a time when Christian music was considered very, very sacred.
Like I remember the days when people were burning their secular music and just, you know, they'd keep DC Talk but burn the other CDs.
And That's what maybe I've never heard of that.
I never heard of that ever.
You heard of that ever.
No, I didn't.
I still actually did that.
That's crazy.
Oh, yeah.
My youth group growing up had a program where you could bring in secular CDs and they would give you like Jesus Freak or News Boys or Audio Adrenaline.
And then they had a big bonfire.
There was a big bonfire at the end of the summer.
That's like an Ariaster film.
Like, I think God, I think God made all music.
He put a copyright on it at the very beginning.
So, yeah.
Well, he made all the people that make all the music.
I mean, that's called God's Creation.
Exactly.
You could say Ozzy Osborne is not as sacred as DC Talk.
You know, it's horrible.
That's something I was kind of curious to talk about.
Like, how have things shifted in Christian music since those days?
It does seem like the dichotomy between secular and Christian music, it's died down a bit.
And that's one reason we can look back and laugh on it a bit now because I don't see it quite as divided as it used to be.
Yeah, it's not as black and white for sure.
I mean, as a solo artist, I started out in 2001 kind of on my own, moved to LA, didn't kind of left Christian music.
So I haven't been doing making Christian music quote-unquote albums since the very beginning as a solo artist.
But, you know, as somebody that, you know, does the DC talk shows here and there, and I am a DC Talk member, so I'm one-third.
You know, I'm the K in DC Talk.
They do pull me back in, and I'm like, I think it's changing for the better.
Yeah, I haven't followed.
I mean, I'm like really old-fashioned, so I listen to really old music all the time.
So I have not kept up on what all the kids are listening to these days.
My kids will turn stuff on.
I'm like, turn it off.
Yeah, me too.
Yeah, well, that's actually one thing.
My kids love Imagine Dragons.
And, you know, it sounds like CCM to me.
I'm like, yeah, kind of all sounds the same.
I was going to say that that's one reason that I actually liked the Jesus Freak album is it was so it was such a huge shift, I feel, from this era where everything was this really explicit, maybe really tame worship album.
Like it's really explicitly mentioning God and Jesus.
And not that Jesus Freak didn't.
I mean, Jesus is in the name of the album.
But, you know, but there's there's there's songs on there that aren't, you know, necessarily just, you know, Jesus is good, Jesus is great.
Yeah, the heart of that record is What If I Stumble, which is basically talking about being a human being and messing up and not having all the, you know, having your having your stuff together and realizing that you need a savior.
So yeah, I think a lot of music comes from this place of like struggle and questioning, you know, and I feel like you can feel that in the album and it's really great.
I used to sit alone in my car and try to do that.
What if I fall?
Like all that crazy note changing that you do.
I used to try and really belt it out.
Hey, you know that Ryan from One Republic, what's his last name?
Ryan Tedder.
He does a really good Kevin Max impersonation.
He invited us to watch him open up for U2 and we all flew down to hang with him.
And backstage before he went on stage with U2, he did his Kevin Max impersonation.
And he actually sang What If I Stumble.
That's the one he did.
That's awesome.
And it was amazing, dude.
I got it on tape.
I mean, it's somewhere on YouTube.
I'm curious about, you guys worked with Carmen on a song called Addicted to Jesus.
I just want to hear about that experience.
I want stories.
I want stories.
Again, like, you know, I was kind of like a chorus singer back in those days.
I do not know who put those two acts together.
I just knew that I was kind of all of a sudden in this video.
And, you know, I didn't know much about Carmen.
I'll be honest, like, I didn't know hardly anything about him.
The only Christian artists that I ever really knew much about were like Amy Grant and Michael W. Smith because they were kind of everywhere, right?
But Carmen, I didn't know anything about him.
And I'll have to just be really gut honest and not try to be cool because everybody would want to be cool when they answer this question, you know, because it's the Babylon B and they want to be cool and everything.
But I'll just say that I was so young, I just didn't even know.
Like I was kind of like, I didn't know if he was like the brand new, I don't know, give me an example in the general market.
I guess Weird Al or brand new.
Yeah, the brand new weird already.
I just didn't know.
It's kind of like, oh, okay, we're going to do this strange song.
And I remember very vaguely, vaguely that whole thing.
And, you know, yeah, it's cringy to me when I see it or hear it.
And I usually don't let it go all over my pages.
But I will say that, you know, we were young and we were just having fun.
Yeah.
Yeah, Carmen.
It's really funny to me how you answered that.
And you said you just all of a sudden were in this video.
We get this feeling.
Yeah.
I mean, we get this feeling.
I was just transported there.
No, no, no.
I mean, really, literally, I was probably picked up by management in a van and driven to a location.
And then I'm in this video, right?
Yeah.
And it's like.
Did you meet Carmen at all?
Did you talk to him?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
We met him.
Actually, you know, strangely enough, I think we did one festival show with him, and we were supposed to jump on stage and do that song.
I mean, of course, this was really early 90s, and he ended up leaving the festival over some discrepancy.
He pulled out of the show, so we didn't have the opportunity to do the Addicted to Jesus.
I just love this image of the band doing all this stuff, and Kevin's just getting dragged around.
And, you know, you're just trying to be creative and write all this poetry.
And there's a guy stand here and try to act like a beastie boy.
All right.
So you're doing a lot of stuff now, and it's way different from the stuff that you did in DC Talk.
You want to talk a little bit about where you're going creatively with your current stuff?
Like I said, I mean, in DC Talk, I was kind of the oddball and the misfit in the very beginning, but I think that's what kind of made the group really cool is the fact that it was three very different individuals with three different musical tastes.
And I think people that have followed us from the beginning as solo artists can see how different those albums really are from artist to artist.
I just, I guess I'm letting people know that I am out there making music.
And a lot of people thought I disappeared after 2001.
And then all of a sudden they're like, oh, he's still making music.
I'm trying to get people to realize, you know, I've made 15 albums since 2001.
A lot of them are under the alternative, whatever you want to call that genre, but I love rock and roll.
I love experimenting.
Just did a synth wave record.
So I'm trying to get people to come investigate what I've been doing.
And I put together a record called Black Sheep of the Fold, which is a collection of my songs from 2001, my first album, Stereotype B, all the way to this newest record I just did called Romeo Drive.
Yeah, so people can get a chance to kind of listen to what I've done if they check out Black Sheep of the Fold.
It's on Spotify.
And then the Romeo Drive, which is a synth wave record being made into vinyl by a company called Old Bear Records in tandem with Light in the Attic.
So we're putting that out on vinyl.
The newest thing I'm doing right now is the Revisiting This Planet, a cover of Larry Norman's Only Visiting This Planet.
Really kind of like a Bob Dylan protest record from 1972.
Larry was, you know, a pioneer and was a friend of mine.
And so I'm able to make really, really cool, fun music, and I'm wanting people to check it out.
So check me out at kevinmax.com.
And thank you, Babylon B, for letting me sell my wares.
I think it's really interesting when you have a band like DC Talk, you could keep going for 20 years and keep releasing the same record over and over.
But for you guys to kind of end it if you did, and then you go and do something that you're a lot more happy with creatively, I almost think that's a better way to go.
Well, it's like the police.
You know, the police ended at the very top of their career, you know, and then Sting went and made all the made all his albums.
And Stewart started making soundtrack music and they seemed to be pretty happy.
And they stopped when they were on top.
You know, really, it wasn't like the police could have absolutely kept going, you know, but I think they just kind of hit their canopy as we did at that time, too.
But I feel like DC Talk has got has got a few more albums in us.
We'll see.
I mean, that's any rap core?
Quote unquote talk.
Oh my gosh.
I was hoping at some point you guys would go full rap core because you never quite did.
Toby, like I know, we never did that.
Yeah.
I know.
No, Toby needs toby needs to rap more.
And I told him after this last boat trip we took together on the carnival, you know, on a small boat where people can like, you know, like rock climb right next to a jet ski thing on board a boat.
You know, yeah, I had to go to the restaurant one night with my family, and it was like walking through a Cool Springs Galleria on this boat.
It was amazing.
It was the hugest thing I've ever been on.
But I told Toby after I think it was like the second or third show, I just said, man, I just, I want to hear you, you know, doing the hip-hop thing more because he's so good at it.
You know, he's so great at it.
And then, of course, my friend Michael Tate's got one of the best voices in the world.
He used to sing more.
And we are doing a Christmas duet song together.
See, I'm still pushing my stuff.
You let me, you let you open that door.
Work it all in.
And I'm pushing it.
So Michael Tate and I are doing a duet Christmas song this year.
Is it baby it's cold outside?
Maybe it's cold outside.
He's Nat King Cole and I'm Frank Sinatra.
Kind of.
Pseudo.
I like it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kevin Max pushing stuff.
Pushing stuff like a used car salesman.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, if people want to follow you or see what you're doing, where can they find you?
KevinMax.com.
Pretty simple, right?
You got that.
You got that.
Yeah, I'm on Twitter and I'm following you guys on Twitter.
And I follow Kyle too.
I'm on Twitter.
Come on, follow me under Kevin Max.
I'm going to follow you right after this.
As soon as I park the RV tonight, yeah, I'm on Twitter.
I'm on Instagram.
I'm on all those things.
Spotify.
Well, thanks for joining us.
Thanks for joining us, Kevin.
We appreciate it.
Yeah, thank you so much, man.
Thank you, guys.
Have a good trip with your family.
Enjoy your chipotle.
Thank you so much.
Appreciate it.
See you.
Bye.
And that was part one of our interview with Kevin.
It went a little long because we got so excited to talk about all sorts of crazy different things, like Carmen and New Thang.
And so we talked more, and that's going to be in the subscriber portion.
So subscribe if you want to hear that part.
All right.
Well, what do you think of that interview, Kyle?
Was that pretty cool?
I'm a little starstruck still.
Like, I was a little nervous talking.
I know I'm supposed to be like this professional podcast host, but I'm like talking to one of my childhood heroes.
For me, if he had talked the way he sings, if he was like, I can't do it.
But I'd feel more threatened because I'd feel more like, because when he talks, he doesn't sound like that.
I'm in a Winnebago.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can't do it.
Yeah.
Or if as I was trying to talk, he kept interrupting me by going, oh, yeah, that would be hard.
It's really interesting how All of our idols like growing up are like normal people.
Yeah, it's weird.
It's almost like everybody's people.
Yeah.
Just people.
Weird.
So that's a lot.
That's enough on that topic.
We're going to move on to hate mail.
Hate mail.
So here's the jingle.
I really miss Adam Ford.
You like that jingle?
That's the jingle, man.
All right.
So this is one of our favorite hate mails.
We've been trying to work this one in.
Yeah, I don't even know.
It's hard to say if it's a hate mail or not.
Yeah, it's love hate mail.
It's a mysterious mail.
Yeah.
So here it is.
Some of your postings are wonderful.
Some are awful.
Keep it up.
Sorry.
You lost it.
Some of your postings are wonderful.
Some are awful.
Keep it up.
Keep it up.
I love this.
The format of this review is just great.
So we did some Googling because I love that she says, or is it a she or he, you remember?
I think it was a lady.
I think it was a lady.
Yeah.
And she says, yeah.
It's just, yeah, keep it up.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Even though some of your stuff is completely awful and I hate it.
I really like that she, it's almost like she actually.
There's even an exclamation point.
Keep it up.
It's like she actually likes the mix of really bad and really good stuff we put out.
Yeah, like, don't be all good.
Don't you ever change.
Don't raise your quality at all.
Keep being half awful.
So we, yeah, so like Ethan was saying, we actually found some other reviews that this person has posted.
Yeah, she's posted a bunch of Yelp reviews.
Like, here's one she left at a restaurant that serves fish, apparently.
This restaurant has amazing tilapia.
It gave me food poisoning and I vomited until 3 a.m.
Five stars.
So apparently her vet or her dog got sick and so she left this review of her local vet.
She says, I took my dog to this vet and they took excellent care of her.
Though they did put her to sleep without my permission.
Highly recommended.
And I think it was a five star.
It's probably a five star review.
Sounds like it.
She really is happy.
Uber.
My Uber driver's car was clean and smelled great.
He drove like a blind man with scorpions in his undergarments.
Great driver.
Yeah, you definitely give that guy five stars.
Five stars.
And a tip.
And a tip for sure.
The AC repairman fixed my AC.
He also stole my television and kidnapped my family.
Keep it up, guys.
Five stars.
That's another five star.
I think it is overall.
I'm inspired by her attitude.
So she goes a place.
It's not all great, but she still is very positive about it.
Yeah.
Five stars.
Five stars.
It's a good way to live.
I do see reviews like this on Amazon a lot where someone's like, this is not the product that it claimed to be, you know, did not do what it was supposed to, broke in two months.
And they're like, four out of five.
Yeah.
Like, where's the four?
Yeah, I haven't seen a couple of our reviews in our podcast like that where they like, they say all this negative stuff and it's five stars.
I'm like, oh, all right.
I think there are different review cultures depending on the platform.
Like some places, everybody just gives five stars.
You see that on Amazon.
That's always four and five, four and five.
And unless someone really hates you, they're not dipping down to three.
Yeah, it's always like really controversial books.
It's like an Ann Coulter book.
It's all ones and fives.
Yeah.
The fans and the haters.
Well, speaking of haters, all you haters that do not subscribe to us yet.
Yeah, we're done with you.
We're done with you.
And we're going to go into our secret lounge.
We're going to go into the platinum room now.
Yep.
And we're going to cut it off here.
And we're going into our subscriber exclusive segment.
So if you'd like to hear the rest of the podcast, you got to go to BabylonB.com slash plans.
You can sign up for any amount starting at $5 a month.
And you get access to extra content every week, which is pretty cool.
Yeah, it's really cool.
And also, I don't know if we've integrated the podcast into the website a bit more since it's a little better now.
Yeah, it's a little better now.
You can go on there and you can list all these on there.
We got an app coming soon.
All kinds of fun stuff.
Sorts of stuff.
So yeah, in the meantime, we'll talk to you guys next week.
Until then, ho ho, ho.
Kyle and Ethan would like to thank Seth Dylan for paying the bills, Adam Ford for creating their job, the other writers for tirelessly pitching headlines, the subscribers and you, the listener.