| 
| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
|
unidentified
|
Good job, Alex. | |
| Yes, I drove three nails. | ||
| Oh, yes. yes. | ||
| Yes, ma'am. ma'am. | ||
| Oh, Lord. | ||
| Somebody got me. | ||
| I stand around the house for the longest time. | ||
| I got to knock them off on somebody. | ||
| Some people used to come by. | ||
| Oh, so we had to get rid of those? | ||
| Well, I just drove up. | ||
| Oh, my mouth is breaking. | ||
| That's it. | ||
| I'm taking it off. | ||
| I'm going to have a real deal. | ||
| What do you mean unskilled labor? | ||
| I thought you were the cop. | ||
| Huh? | ||
| I'm the help, boss. | ||
| Thank you guys! | ||
| Thank you guys! | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| Come here. | ||
| I appreciate it. | ||
| We'll see you next time. | ||
| We'll see you next time. | ||
| We'll see you next time. | ||
| I wonder if somebody would have filled up the internet. | ||
| Chinese are now saying, "Well, you know, we think that the test is coming out, maybe you show fully automatic weapons." Well, I think I'm going to get to the point where you're going to get that. | ||
| Oh, we are fine. | ||
| This is how we do this stuff. | ||
| What do you think? | ||
| What do you think about today? | ||
| What do you think about today? | ||
| Yep. | ||
| I think that was a drought. | ||
| I'm going to put it out on the ground. | ||
| Do you know what are using Delta Force? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I'm going to admit it. | ||
| We're using Delta Force to ground up wrong. | ||
| Yeah, I remember that in Seattle. | ||
| Yeah, Delta Force is a wrecked. | ||
| I've got raw footage. | ||
| I'm going to put it in. | ||
| I'm going to put it in the ground. | ||
| They got more of that. | ||
| I got two of the bugs. | ||
| I'm going to put it in the ground. | ||
| It's resistant. | ||
| It's resistant. | ||
| It's coming now. | ||
| It's so scary because it's very real. | ||
| Very real. | ||
| I don't know the other I've wanted to make. | ||
| Check it out. | ||
| It's a plant right there on the satellite. | ||
| I know it's a little bit. | ||
| It's a little bit more than a little bit. | ||
| Uh, yeah. | ||
| You can see the no burn. | ||
| No burn. | ||
| Is that the end of the screen? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You can't... | ||
| You can put a towel in it and throw it in the fire for like minutes on end and it just charges. | ||
| It's burning. | ||
| It doesn't work that way. | ||
| It doesn't work that way. | ||
| And we also got our gallons in there, right? | ||
| We'll be in. | ||
| Yeah, that's burning here. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| That's really good. | ||
| Don't try to avoid giving you a complete answer. | ||
| This is out. | ||
| Let's watch! | ||
| I brought the original copies! | ||
| This is the first weekend for it. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Hold on a second. | ||
| It's not up on InfoWars yet. | ||
| Mike! | ||
| It's not on InfoWars yet. | ||
| If you find somewhere like Rebuildthechurch.com Go to the branch of the Midian Trust Discussion Board Comprehensive thinking is a great part But the discussion board Has moved So it'll tell you where to go Mine's definitely true A little sarcastic You get the sharp T's But not too many It's not huge Very noticeable But it is noticeable And you know what the sarcastic means Defiance | ||
| A large lowercase letter Especially K Anywhere in the writing This high buckle K If a person resists Others authority Sinners from his head And they told what to do What the guys were going to be No Alex, you never resist authority. | ||
| Very, very talkative. | ||
| That's connected more than just to move their mouths. | ||
| Sometimes they don't talk just to hear their own voice. | ||
| Very strong T-bars, which is great. | ||
| High self-esteem. | ||
| Reveals confidence, ambition, the ability to plan ahead. | ||
| High goals, high personal expectations, and an overall good self-image. | ||
| This is the key to personal success and happiness. | ||
| Persistence. | ||
| Stokes that double back over, you had one T that did it. | ||
| An N toward the right, usually located in the T. | ||
| And the opposite person has a quality of not giving up when he's been confronted with temporary setbacks. | ||
| He will persist until he completes the task. | ||
| Self-conscious. | ||
| When the second hunt is hired and the first person has a fear of being ridiculed, he tends to worry what others might think when around strangers. | ||
| But I guess you're so confident that it doesn't matter. | ||
| But it may affect you. | ||
| Well, no, but that is true. | ||
| I'll have a bunch of fear and I'll just say, screw it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm going over it. | |
| Exactly. | ||
| Wow, well thanks, that's cool. | ||
| Oh, I like it. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Now I'm going to climb. | ||
| I like it. | ||
| It's been about seven years to kick it off. | ||
| Problem reaction solution. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Create a crisis. | |
| Offer a solution. | ||
| What did they do? | ||
|
unidentified
|
The bomb. | |
| Daddy. | ||
| How many buildings don't blow out? | ||
| The truck bomb and the truck bomb could have done out with fuel oil. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, yeah, the building was blown out. | |
| That's what I wanted to tell you. | ||
| The building was blown out. | ||
| The FBI confiscated all the surveillance cameras. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They confiscated the seismographs, but copies got out first. | |
| Two separate explosions, a diversionary out front. | ||
| First small and the big ones inside. | ||
| The second explosion was after a chain of explosions. | ||
| Jane Graham ran the HUD on the fifth floor. | ||
| Jane Graham, I saw guys planning what she said were large sticks of gray butter. | ||
| That morning down on the, you know. | ||
| They bossed it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They would take any old building. | |
| They wanted to boss the whole thing, but it didn't work. | ||
| That's why they had to help people back and go, the unexplored bombs, the media, local media didn't know. | ||
| They weren't part of it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
They're removing unexplored variants of the security bombs right now. | |
| I've got a video out. | ||
| America's Warped by Design in it. | ||
| We're taking the bombs out. | ||
| Give me a break. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Eligible. | |
| We got a helicopter shooting. | ||
| The FBI had four-second TVs all out here hooked into that house, satellite in the back of Washington. | ||
| The dish back there in the back. | ||
| All four cameras were there. | ||
| They're going for an hour and a half. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| They were doing it pretty funny. | ||
| Flint, while it was burning. | ||
| Flint, yeah. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| Clinton had the head of China's nuclear weapons programs, top general, in the White House recording and laughing. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's when you were in Iraq. | |
| He was his dad on TV. And he'd just been in office a few months. | ||
| And you'd already had the World Trade Center. | ||
| That was in the October 28, 1993. New York Times and Salaam in the World Trade Center bombing. | ||
| Salam was an Egyptian, a former security force agent, over at work for the FBI. | ||
| As the informant said, "You gave me real explosives, you took that bomb, we're going in two days, get them now." We trapped him, they pulled him out, sent in that bomb. | ||
| That's what they do. | ||
| That's all they do. | ||
| And the New York Times are so arrogant, they just report it. | ||
| I can just babble, Mike. | ||
| You can tell them a story. | ||
| I was a little sick of telling them. | ||
| I was working at the same time in Garland. | ||
| I was working at the same time in the United States of Texas. | ||
| I don't get into all the speculation. | ||
| I mean, I was just curious. | ||
| I happen to hear of this guy, you know, that had supposedly seen David Koresh sitting in the apartment in the parking lot smoking pot. | ||
| He sounds curious. | ||
| Well, I figured it all set up. | ||
| I don't know if they'd be. | ||
| It wasn't the current president when you were in school, was it, Ed? | ||
| No, President's Day is a combination of Washington's Day and Lincoln's Day, and It has nothing whatsoever to do. | ||
| with that traitorous Bill Clinton who now occupies the White House. | ||
| You're doing a good job. | ||
| I am too. | ||
| You're an uncle too, right? | ||
| Yes, I am. | ||
| There's no church out here. | ||
| They've kept the money. | ||
| Is that right? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| Pretty funny. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| This is not a church. | ||
| This is the money we have kept. | ||
| This is actually a drug lab. | ||
| I was wanting to see that, what she put up, but everybody don't want to download it. | ||
| They're afraid you've got a virus on it. | ||
| Wiley told me to delete it right away when you see that name. | ||
| It's hard to keep an eye on it in a while. | ||
| Where's your drug lab going to be? | ||
| Ask Clive. | ||
| Ask Clive. | ||
| You need to let me know what I need to bring. | ||
| We're painting next week and caulking more. | ||
| We're going to caulk everything. | ||
| We start one side as we caulk the other side. | ||
| Hey, where did they go? | ||
| Noah's Ark? | ||
| Is this the new Noah's Ark? | ||
| I think it's strapped down. | ||
| It kind of looks like the Noah's Ark. | ||
| You go up on there. | ||
| If you see somebody. | ||
| I was moving out of the place. | ||
| You got to show him all those badges. | ||
| In the modern media Rolodex, this is loving. | ||
| And Chawawa is vicious and right wing. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| Yeah, baby. | ||
| Yes, we cry. | ||
| Yeah, I heard you say that. | ||
| Yeah, what would be the motive for that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
You're asking me, Peter? | |
| What Ed was making is... | ||
| You were saying, Clive, that the neighbor said it was a two-month... | ||
| They were saying he planned to be gone for two months. | ||
| The neighbor down over the hill said they came in, I think, the first day. | ||
| Well, see, he was there when all the helicopters came in and all that sort of stuff, and he heard all the shooting and everything. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And he said they parked down over the hill. | |
| Bunch of ATF guys. | ||
| Love officers. | ||
| So he came out of his house. | ||
| He's got a big front yard, a big field, like us. | ||
| He's set back off the road. | ||
| So he walked all the way over the road. | ||
| As he walked toward them, they come stomping. | ||
| They come up out of the ground everywhere, sort of things surrounding him. | ||
| Figured he was a threat. | ||
| And he says, hey, my kids want, you know, he says, I'm wanting to get my kids out of the house. | ||
| Is it over? | ||
| Is it safe to go, you know, to town now or something? | ||
| He says, my kids are scared. | ||
| And they told him to go back to the house, pack his bags, and be prepared to stay gone for two months. | ||
| He said, hey, I got cattle, I got animals to feed. | ||
| So they made his whole family move out of the house. | ||
| Did they pay him in? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Pay at all? | |
| They made his whole family move out of the house. | ||
| And he would have to come to the roadblock up the other end here every day. | ||
| And they would escort him with two ATF or FBI agents would escort him back to the house so he could feed his animals and then escort him away again. | ||
| Did they pay his motel bills? | ||
| Not that I know of. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, here's a question that Ed was asking, Clive. | |
| And the question is, how could they know that it was going to be around two months, then they send the helicopters to shoot up the water supply, the water tanks, the blue water tanks, to shoot up David's room. | ||
| Do you think they meant the raid to be a so-called boxed raid, having helicopters attack, having them hit the front door? | ||
| Do you think the whole thing was planned? | ||
| I think it was planned all the way from the beginning. | ||
| They told us in court that they rehearsed this thing in Fort Hood back in December. | ||
| They rehearsed it, and they were supposed to have it down flat to where they could have 130 people on the floor in handcuffs to do, I think it was like two minutes flat. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But they didn't put you in handcuffs in two minutes flat. | |
| They didn't get in. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's my point. | |
| They could, well, actually they did get in. | ||
| They got in up here. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| This is your fiberglass ladder back here, right? | ||
| The thing is, why would they shoot up the water supply right as the bullets are going through the front door? | ||
| From the helicopters. | ||
| Have any way of resisting, I guess, and surviving any length of time? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, that's right, any length of time. | |
| That's the point. | ||
| If they told the neighbor to prepare to be gone for two months, and they come in, and the first thing they do is shoot up the water supply, that's not because they're going to have a raid that day and take everybody to jail. | ||
| The thing is, they tell the public they were just trying to serve a legal warrant. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That they never brought with them. | |
| Which, none of the guys that... | ||
| At least the ones they put on the witness stand, none of them had ever seen it. | ||
| They didn't have it with them. | ||
| If anybody had it at all, it was probably one of the guys on a helicopter, but nobody knew what they were supposed to be searching for. | ||
| Well, you've got a 100-man assault team. | ||
| The question is, why would they have helicopters firing from the back simultaneously as the BATF agents' officers near the door? | ||
| They claim their orders were to be a diversion. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's what I was going to say to her. | |
| Well, it sounds to me like they were trying to get you guys, that is the Davidians, to fire to start a firefight like they wanted a confrontation. | ||
|
unidentified
|
For the media. | |
| Well, Catherine Madison and others who were upstairs have said, Mike, that they saw the helicopters firing. | ||
| Firing first. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, wait a minute. | |
| I saw in a movie where Catherine Madison was in a front shooting machine gun. | ||
| Oh, made for a TV movie? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, must be true. | |
| Must be true among us, made for a TV movie. | ||
| Well, here's the thing. | ||
| They claim we were shooting a.50 caliber machine gun at them on the first day, right? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| I said, well, if we had that and it was working, we did have a.50 caliber. | ||
| It wasn't a machine gun. | ||
| Barrett semi-automatic. | ||
| We were told it wasn't working. | ||
| It wasn't used on February 28th. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I was told by several people in there. | |
| But... | ||
| You know, they've stuck to their story that we fired this.50 caliber at them on the first day, then why would somebody be shooting at the tanks with P-Rifles if you got a.50 caliber? | ||
| And if we fired the.50 caliber at them on April 19th, produce the tanks with the big dings in the side of it or holes or whatever. | ||
| Well, if you guys were so bloodthirsty, how could the BATF, at 50 yards away, back away for several minutes with their hands up? | ||
| Right. | ||
| I mean, if we were a suicide cult and just wanted to go down in a blaze of glory and take as many people as we could with us, none of them would have walked off on February 28th. | ||
| We could have massacred them all and then just wait for the big showdown that came after us. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But there weren't even any bullet holes in their pickups or in their cattle trailers. | |
| Well, there was. | ||
| According to the evidence they showed in court, the cattle truck that pulled up at the front door, you know, that was the second one, It had a bullet hole through the radiator, which when you put a dowel into it, it pointed directly up the road at the other cattle truck. | ||
| It didn't come from an angle. | ||
| Also, the driver jumped out and left the door open, and there's a bullet hole through the top of the open door and into the roof of the cab on the offside from the building, which means somebody over there was shooting from the houses or somebody. | ||
| You know, go berserk over there. | ||
| It wasn't shot from the building. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| So... | ||
| Wait, are you saying that somebody could have been shooting their own agents? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, yeah, that's what he's saying. | |
| He's saying that they got bullet holes in some of the vehicles, but a lot of them, or several of them at least... | ||
| Not bullet holes that we could have shot. | ||
| They're on the far side, away from the building. | ||
| Well, that's been brought forward in several different films and a lot of the evidence. | ||
| Even the heavily edited VATF footage shows one of their own officers throwing in some type of grenade, whether it's flashbang or phosphorus or explosive. | ||
| It probably wouldn't be phosphorus. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It probably wouldn't have been phosphorus or you would have a fire, but let's say either a flash or a shrapnel grenade. | ||
| A concussion grenade. | ||
| They're throwing these in here, and he's shooting into the room. | ||
| That's what it appears like. | ||
| They deny that, but, you know. | ||
| Well, you know three of those guys have been Clinton bodyguards. | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, all four of them were. | |
| Three of them were Arkansas State Troopers, and the other one was Secret Service or something that was on the campaign trail. | ||
| Three that go into that room came out alive. | ||
| One was wounded by his own guy. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We didn't shoot any of the guys on the front side of the chapel. | |
| There were two guys that tried to get in this side that ended up dead. | ||
| There's one, I think, that was over hiding behind a vault somewhere over in the field. | ||
| He ended up dead, and one guy at the front door ended up dead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| But none of those three that go in, you know, Linda Thompson said all three of them are dead. | ||
| Yeah, she's wrong. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It wasn't those three. | |
| According to the testimony in the trial, all three of them end up getting out of that room. | ||
| The only damage, any of them, including the guy that looks like he gets shot in the head, he kind of rolls over and the bullets come through the wall. | ||
| He's not wounded at all. | ||
| That's his Kevlar helmet. | ||
| Well, he's just ducking, you know, reflex action. | ||
| He just rolls over, and he jumps up, slides down the ladder, and messes his ankle up when he hits the ground. | ||
| That's the only injury he had. | ||
| So he was just rolling around in the fetal position like a baby, basically. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, he was. | |
| No, there was a guy on this side. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Like a baby. | |
| There was a guy that went over the hump. | ||
| See, there were two ladders. | ||
| Everybody concentrates on the guys that go up the right-hand side because they're trying to get in that window and they're jerking on the curtain. | ||
| You don't see what the other team did when they went over the hump. | ||
| What did they do? | ||
| They were trying to get in the window on this side. | ||
| The other ones have got shot up. | ||
| We don't know whether, you know... | ||
| Could have been the sniper teams in the house. | ||
| No, it could have been the helicopters rolling up. | ||
| They're out here shooting up at David's room. | ||
| You know, and that's where they're trying to get into what they thought was David's room. | ||
| Two of these guys, I think two of them end up dead, one of them end up wounded, and he end up rolling off the roof, from what I understand. | ||
| That's the one they come around and pick up out of the courtyard here. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Where was Catherine's room at? | |
| She was on the back towards the... | ||
|
unidentified
|
So this is David's room, and they were shooting this away, and Catherine was looking back... | |
| They were coming in across, you know... | ||
| When I saw them anyway, they were coming up near the swimming pool, the helicopter. | ||
| She said she saw them shooting into this part of the building. | ||
|
unidentified
|
What did you think when you saw the helicopter? | |
| What was your first reaction? | ||
| The only time I saw the helicopter in the initial raid was as I was going down the hall, which was out toward the driveway there, and I could see right through into the cafeteria and there was a door out. | ||
| You know, facing the swimming pool. | ||
|
unidentified
|
As I went by, I could see this helicopter turning away. | |
| He was just in the process of turning away and doing a U-turn sort of thing. | ||
| And when we went to trial in San Antonio, they got up and said, oh, they didn't get any closer than, I forget how many hundred meters or something. | ||
| I said, I'm no judge of this. | ||
| I'm not a good judge. | ||
| I said, how far would like 500 meters or whatever? | ||
| I said, oh, about a football field or something like that. | ||
| I said, well, that thing was right out here over this wave. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I said, that seems to be a lot closer than 500 meters. | |
| Do you think the jury believed it? | ||
| I don't know what the jury... | ||
| They found you not guilty. | ||
| Well, I don't think the jury were... | ||
| But they're still... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Filled in enough. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Even though they were found not guilty. | ||
| That's the new American way. | ||
| Seven or nine, I can't remember. | ||
| Well, they were nine. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We got rid of those juries, too, in federal trials. | |
| Now we just have judges. | ||
| Go ahead, Clark. | ||
| I guess... | ||
| Don't be an extremist, please, Jerry. | ||
| I forget what I was going to say. | ||
|
unidentified
|
About the distance in the jury? | |
| I was going to say, I don't know on each individual point that came out that the jury was qualified to know whether they were being lied to or not initially. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But I know a lot of them are pretty upset. | |
| After they find out all the skullduggery that went on in the court, all the information that's come out since, Sarah Bain has spoken out plenty of times. | ||
| Very upset. | ||
| I think it was the second memorial she came up and she brought several of the other jury people with it. | ||
| Even that jury was a bit of a farce. | ||
| There were several people that shouldn't have been on that jury. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, first of all, they whittled down, what was it, 3,000? | |
| Jury whittled down to 80 people. | ||
| So then they bring them out one by one in question. | ||
| The judge would ask each one, I don't want you to tell me what religion you are, he says, but would you consider yourself mainstream? | ||
| In other words, we don't want any Jehovah's Witnesses, Hare Krishna's, you know what I'm saying? | ||
| They weren't going to let anybody that might be sympathetic to a small group. | ||
| So he said, do you consider yourself mainstream religion? | ||
| And so then they had this one young girl that came up, and she asked to be dismissed. | ||
| This is what she reads, and she said, well, I just had a baby. | ||
| I'm breastfeeding and all nice. | ||
| Well, we're only going to be, you know, you're only going to be on the jury from 9 until about 4. He says, you can squeeze the milk out, put it in a bottle and have a babysitter feed the baby during the day. | ||
| He says, you'll be home by 5 or 5.30. | ||
| You can feed it at night. | ||
| And he made a stay on the jury. | ||
| Well, that was... | ||
| You might say, fine, up to a point. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Clive, he hurt the children? | |
| Up to a point. | ||
| They love the children. | ||
| He got away with that during the trial. | ||
| But when you sequester a jury to make a major decision, they don't want to be locked up for days or weeks. | ||
| You know, they're going to rush to the decision. | ||
| And another girl was going to night school. | ||
| He pulled the same deal on her. | ||
| Well, you're not going to be here at night. | ||
| You can still be on the jury, you know. | ||
| And then when the trial... | ||
| You'll have plenty of time to study. | ||
| Real early in the trial. | ||
| A note was apparently handed to the judge, came from the jury. | ||
| People on the jury were letting the judge know that the guy that was on the jury had already made his mind up before he heard anything, that we were guilty. | ||
| And so they brought this to the judge. | ||
| Instead of dismissing him and saying, you can't be on the jury with that kind of attitude, they just kind of gave him a slap on the wrist and said, well, do you promise not? | ||
| Think like that. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Say that again? | |
| Something like that. | ||
| Okay, judge. | ||
| And they left him on. | ||
| I mean, he's prejudiced. | ||
| So you're telling me that... | ||
| So you've got three people right there that got a problem. | ||
| That's in the court record that your lawyers had a motion to get this guy out of there? | ||
| No, I don't know that they filed a motion. | ||
| Tell us the story. | ||
| This is important on the record. | ||
| I'm just saying that somebody on the jury sent a note to the judge, apparently. | ||
| That one of the jury people had already made statements right at the beginning that he felt they were guilty and it hadn't even started. | ||
| You know what I'm saying? | ||
| He'd let them know his feelings prior to hearing all the evidence. | ||
| So they informed the judge of this. | ||
| But instead of kicking the guy off the jury and kicking someone else, you know, putting one of the ultimates in his place or something, they kept him on. | ||
| Just with a kind of a warning, you know. | ||
| You can't be saying that. | ||
| You know, don't let... | ||
| You're not supposed to have opinions without listening and you're supposed to be unbiased. | ||
| You're not going to do this again. | ||
| That sort of thing, you know. | ||
| Oh yeah, okay, Judge. | ||
| That was it. | ||
| Now, what exactly did the jury rule? | ||
| Not guilty on all the murder charges, correct, but that there was firearms violations? | ||
| From what I understand, and this kind of stinks in a way, our lawyers went to the prosecuting lawyers at some point during the series. | ||
| They never informed us. | ||
| It was something that they discussed with us. | ||
| They went and they said... | ||
| They said to the prosecutors, we feel that it's only fair that you let us, at some point, write in self-defense into the charges. | ||
| And from what I understand, the prosecuting attorney says, well, we'll let you write self-defense if you let us write in voluntary manslaughter. | ||
| So they made a deal. | ||
| Without consulting you. | ||
| Yeah, so when it came down... | ||
| No, that's an important point. | ||
|
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Yeah, we were not asked, were we willing to try to deal, or would we, you know... | |
| And that's not really valid, then. | ||
| Your attorney has to get your plea. | ||
| Well, it should. | ||
| But anyway, the thing is, when it came down to separating the jury, from what I understand, the judge gave the jury instructions on how to vote, you know. | ||
| And on the third count, which is apparently where they... | ||
| The third count was having a weapon during the commission of violent crime. | ||
| You know, going into the trial, we were told that was a five to ten year sentence if you were found guilty. | ||
| Somewhere along the way, when they made this deal, they put all this extra wording into the third charge. | ||
| See? | ||
| And so... | ||
| When the jury is separated to go make the decision, the judge gives them instructions on how to vote. | ||
| And I think they said there was like 90 pages of instructions on how to vote on the third count. | ||
| Some fantastic number of pages anyway. | ||
| And, you know, just bamboozled them to even wade through it, let alone understand what they were getting into. | ||
| So they came up with not guilty on conspiracy to murder, which was the first charge. | ||
| Not guilty for everybody on aiding and abetting the murder of federal agents. | ||
| But on the weapons trial, because of testimony, some of it false, some of it may be true. | ||
| Some of them, you know, had, you know, not evidence necessarily, but testimony that they had a gun. | ||
| Like Livingston, for instance. | ||
| You get three ATF agents get up and say, who's the guy that shot me? | ||
| Or shot my friend, you know. | ||
|
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Well... | |
| In their initial reports on February 28th or afterwards when they're talking to the Texas Rangers, one guy says, well, we got out of the first truck, we ran around the north end of the building, and we just got around the corner. | ||
| Here's three guys standing in the backyard, two white guys and a black guy. | ||
| And the black guy was huge. | ||
| And one guy says, when I first saw him, I thought they were our guys because they had black on and masks. | ||
| Oh, that's Delta Force. | ||
| Goggles, you know. | ||
| He says, I thought they were agar. | ||
| The next thing, they open fire, that's point blank. | ||
| So one guy gets kind of wet. | ||
|
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He's got a vest on, so, you know, he just gets bruised from the ones that hit the vest. | |
| But I think he got one in the neck or ricocheted off his neck or something. | ||
| So he's got a few wet. | ||
| He rolls over into a ditch over here. | ||
| So when the other two guys jump behind the tractor and they're hiding out, they don't get shot. | ||
| So one guy said, you know, he thought they were their guys. | ||
| He says, the black guy was huge. | ||
| Another guy says, yeah, the black guy was about 5'10". | ||
| You know, and none of them saying, well, we could recognize any of them because they've got goggles and stuff on. | ||
| So they said. | ||
| Did you have goggles and masks? | ||
| I never saw any of our guys with goggles, but, you know, I couldn't say. | ||
| Black uniforms? | ||
| Any black uniforms? | ||
| There were people with black pants or maybe a black t-shirt or something. | ||
| We didn't have a uniform, per se. | ||
|
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Black ski masks? | |
| No, not black ski masks. | ||
|
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|
I mean, you didn't have their type of wear. | |
| No. | ||
| Oh, okay. | ||
| So anyway, what I've said all along, I said, okay, what they do is nobody can identify who these people are until somewhere during the siege, May, not May, March the 15th or something, you know, Livingston, David sends Livingston out with a message to the FBI. The next thing we know, it's in the press, Livingston's the guy that shot this ATF agent. | ||
| Livingston's a little bitty guy. | ||
| Either shorter than me or no higher. | ||
| So I said, okay, they've got a guinea pig now. | ||
| The only black guy that comes out of here alive is Livingston. | ||
| So he's got to be the black guy that does the shooting, you know, even though he's small. | ||
| Doesn't fit the description. | ||
| So then you got... | ||
| I said... | ||
| Well, how come they never tried to pin the two white guys? | ||
| They never identified anybody as being the white guys. | ||
| But they pick on Livingston to be the black guy, you know? | ||
| And so there was Brad Branch and myself sitting there in the courtroom. | ||
| We said to our boys, we want you to put us on a witness stand so we can testify that Brad Branch wasn't out. | ||
| I mean, Livingston wasn't out in the backyard. | ||
| We saw him somewhere else in the building. | ||
| We can vouch for that. | ||
| He wasn't that Tudor. | ||
|
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The judge wouldn't allow. | |
| He says we were co-defendants, therefore we couldn't testify on his behalf. | ||
| And what's more, even if we did, it'd be impartial. | ||
| I mean, it'd be partial. | ||
| It'd be self-serving. | ||
| Well, I always thought you could put anybody you wanted to on the stand. | ||
| So anyway, so then our lawyers filed a motion to separate Livingston from the rest of the trial, you know, have a separate trial, and then we could testify. | ||
| And that was denied, as were most of the things we had. | ||
| Let me stop you for just a second, Clive. | ||
| On this issue of the counts, you're saying there's three counts. | ||
| There were several counts beyond that, but everybody had the first three. | ||
| Some had extra. | ||
|
unidentified
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Okay. | |
| And the three counts again are what? | ||
| Like Paul. | ||
| Paul wasn't even there. | ||
| So he's got some slightly different counts because of his names on the receipt for some guns. | ||
| Legal guns. | ||
| He bought them legally and everything. | ||
| He had nothing to do with any altering or anything that they were trying to pin on us. | ||
| Okay, the question is this, a side question. | ||
| During the Senate hearings, we saw them hold up a pristine Mach 90, a semi-automatic version of a Russian. | ||
| Field weapon. | ||
| We saw them hold this up and say, this came out of a fire. | ||
| This is illegal. | ||
| Now, there's this huge fire. | ||
| Well, one of the guns that they held up, they claimed they got out of Mike Schroeder's van, which was out the front. | ||
| I can't say one way or the other whether they did or they didn't. | ||
| That's what they claimed. | ||
| But that was a legal semi-automatic rifle. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| They had a whole table of unburned guns. | ||
| So they found you not guilty? | ||
| On the murder. | ||
| They found everybody not guilty on conspiracy, and they found everybody not guilty of murder. | ||
| What the jury did, because of the various testimony that was given, like I said, whether it was true or false, the fact that we didn't put a defense on left that testimony standing. | ||
| And so they said, well, we've got people saying, well, so-and-so had a gun, or this guy saying, I had a gun. | ||
| And so they came up with guilty on the gun charge. | ||
| They went through the other charges, either guilty or not guilty, depending on what they were. | ||
| So, guilty in having a gun in a crime when you were found not guilty of the main crime? | ||
| Right after the jury uttered their verdict, the judge dismisses it. | ||
| They're allowed to go. | ||
| Both sides, all the lawyers from both sides, run up to the bench and say, Judge, how can you have people guilty of having a weapon during the commission of a crime if they're found not guilty of a crime? | ||
| He says, yeah, you're right, the jury messed up, you know, and I've already dismissed them, and, you know, if I had to find them all again and bring them back, I'd have to instruct them they made a mistake, and all they could do if they were going to change it at all would be to say not guilty, so I'll just scrap the third count. | ||
| But then by Monday... | ||
| That was the end of the argument, so you could... | ||
| Yeah, back them off, you know. | ||
| So then on the Monday... | ||
| The feds had already filed a reinstatement of a third count, and the judge turned around and changed his mind, and on the strength of that, I think in June or July, when he came down to the sentencing, he gives them 10 years plus 30. So they were guilty of conspiracy, guilty of murder, guilty of having automatic weapons, which was never proved. | ||
| Nobody was... | ||
| So they're found not guilty, but he says they're guilty. | ||
|
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Sure. | |
| And that's how it stands, even in the press. | ||
| I don't even deny that. | ||
| It's so asinine. | ||
| They appealed that. | ||
| Well, the stupid lawyers didn't appeal their convictions, which I think they should have. | ||
| What they appealed was their sentencing. | ||
| Maybe they weren't stupid, Bob. | ||
| Maybe the lawyers weren't stupid. | ||
|
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You know what I mean. | |
| But they only appealed the sentencing. | ||
| And so when it went to the Fifth Circuit in Louisiana, and I read the report, they had three different... | ||
|
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Fifth Circuit judges that reviewed the case. | |
| You can't present any new evidence in an appeal. | ||
| All you can present is whether you feel the trial you had was handled properly. | ||
| You know, basically, that's what you're appealing, is that it wasn't conducted right. | ||
|
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So what they reviewed, what they looked at and decided was, well, here's got all this evidence. | |
| We've reviewed the evidence. | ||
| We've reviewed all the testimony. | ||
|
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And since you guys didn't put on a defense, therefore... | |
| We have to go with the evidence. | ||
| And the jury found on the weight of evidence that you were guilty. | ||
| And now it's going to the Supreme Court. | ||
| What they suggested was that the judge re-sentenced them. | ||
| In other words, to me, that means the sentence that he gave was wrong. | ||
| Something wrong with it. | ||
| Overbearing, too much, whatever. | ||
| So they tell him to re-sentence. | ||
| But they put it back to Smith. | ||
| They don't re-sentence him themselves. | ||
| They put it back on Smith and say, well, it's up to your discretion. | ||
| And he gets in the same amount of time. | ||
| Here's the question. | ||
| We see this happen, Clive. | ||
| We see them do this. | ||
| It's going to the Supreme Court now. | ||
|
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What do you think the Supreme Court's going to do? | |
| Well, I'm hoping they'll let them out. | ||
| You know, if they'd have got, let's say they'd have got the gun charge, if it would have held up at all, and it was a five to ten year sentence. | ||
| These guys have done seven years already. | ||
| If you're in federal prison, you're supposed to be out of... | ||
| Unless you get no good time at all, if the judge refuses to let you out on good time, normally you can do 80%. | ||
| In other words, in eight years, they would have been out. | ||
| The way he's given them 40 years, these bodies aren't coming out under normal circumstances. | ||
|
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They're going to die in jail. | |
| They'd be old men. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But again, back to that same point you've made. | |
| How have you found not guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, not guilty of murder, and then the third count is... | ||
| Having a weapon during the commission of a crime. | ||
| Having a weapon during the commission of a crime. | ||
| If you're found not guilty of the crimes... | ||
| Technically, that should have been not guilty on the weapons charge. | ||
| And the weapons charge was not that the weapons were illegal, but that they were using the commission of a crime. | ||
| It doesn't say you had to use them. | ||
| They just had a weapon during the commission of a crime. | ||
| But, like I said... | ||
| Like armed robbery. | ||
| It doesn't matter whether you used them or you did. | ||
| So that's like saying you're armed at your house. | ||
| Graham Craddock never, you know, he admitted to him that he had a weapon. | ||
| But he never used them the whole time. | ||
| Well, but I mean, again, just to boil it down for people that are watching this, it would do air it live. | ||
| They're sitting there saying that you're not guilty. | ||
| But then they're still saying that you're guilty of having a weapon during the commission of a crime. | ||
| They would try. | ||
| Look at the evidence or what they considered the testimony that was presented. | ||
| See what I'm saying? | ||
| And their lawyers didn't really put on a defense. | ||
| But that's ridiculous. | ||
| Sure, it's ridiculous. | ||
| Who are your lawyers in all of this? | ||
|
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My lawyer was Dan Caldwell out of Houston. | |
| What do you think of Dan? | ||
| Good lawyer, but he told me right off the bat he wasn't there to defend David. | ||
| He wasn't there to defend the whole group. | ||
| He was there as my defense. | ||
| He got me off. | ||
| Who was the so-called lead attorney? | ||
| Did the judge appoint a lead attorney? | ||
| Lead counsel? | ||
| Probably if anybody had seniority or leadership, it would have been Mike DeGaron. | ||
| Do you think the defense was compromised? | ||
| I think they were compromised by the fact that the judge wouldn't allow any money to bring in expert witnesses. | ||
| What do you mean he wouldn't allow any money? | ||
| He demanded that we all wear suits, suits and ties. | ||
| He wouldn't even give us any money to buy a suit and tie. | ||
| I didn't have any clothes. | ||
| All my clothes that were here were burned up and the ones I was wearing when I came out, they cut off with scissors. | ||
| Did he hold you in contempt for not wearing a suit? | ||
|
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No. | |
| I did wear a suit, but he wouldn't. | ||
| You know, our lawyers requested that there would be money allotted for us to get experts for defense. | ||
| For bringing in, you know, a different situation. | ||
| And he refused all that. | ||
| How much did the government spend? | ||
| Millions, probably. | ||
| They brought every little mom-and-pop gun dealer from all over the United States that had anything to do with it. | ||
| Whether they sold us a book or whether they sold a gun or what. | ||
| They brought them all down to testify. | ||
| As if that's something dirty to sell guns at gun shows. | ||
| I was surprised. | ||
| I thought gun dealers were kind of like, you know, militia with camos and gun belts hanging all over them at a gun show. | ||
| So then I'm thinking, oh, you know, have all these gun dealers. | ||
| But when they came in, they had little grandmas and grandpas trying to put their kids through college or something. | ||
| What is it like, Clive, what is it like to have Judge Walter Smith engage in the criminal actions that I think are cleared in? | ||
| At least clear to me, Alex Jones, and I'll put that on the record. | ||
| To see the Judge Walter Smith engage in this criminal activity and this obstruction of justice in this huge railroad. | ||
| Now, Clive... | ||
| To have him refusing to recuse himself in the civil case where you're trying to take action, get back your good name, you lost your daughter, you lost your friends. | ||
| After all of this, he will not recuse himself. | ||
| I remember seven months ago when he was all acting like he was going to be Mr. Goody Two-Shoes. | ||
| You said on my radio program, and I agreed that... | ||
| You think it's the same old fraud all over again, just more acting? | ||
| I think it's more of the cover-up. | ||
| He's still playing the same role he played seven years ago or six years ago. | ||
| So what do you think of Judge Walter Smith? | ||
| I don't think much of Judge Walter Smith, period. | ||
| But what I think, what I can't understand is how the media or the courts or whoever has any authority in this country can look at the evidence of this man's performance, both in the trial and since, and say that this guy is unbiased. | ||
| I don't see how anybody, including the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, can say, well, this guy is not a biased judge. | ||
| How can they call former Senator John Danforth an independent counselor, an independent investigator, when he's appointed by Janet Reno, the attorney general, to investigate Janet Reno, the attorney general? | ||
| Well, I think they can call them whatever they like in this country because they tend to screw the English language up pretty good. | ||
| They take the meaning away from words and... | ||
| And, you know, things don't have the same value as they used to when we were in school. | ||
| Would you say to people out there they better watch the words and better see what's... | ||
| Well, I'm saying, you know, there's a lot of catchphrases, a lot of double talk, there's a lot of deception and covering up, and I don't know what the real meaning of the word independent is in their mind, but I know what it means to me, and I don't know whether he fits the bill. | ||
| Let's put it down. | ||
| Cloud Doyle, were you guys operating a speed lab out here? | ||
| No, we weren't. | ||
| I've been told... | ||
| We were totally against drugs. | ||
| Well, I've been told by the Surviving Marriage Opinions like yourself, drugs were... | ||
| David would have somebody thrown out of here if they were doing drugs. | ||
| People that had done drugs or having a problem, whether it was drinking, smoking, or whatever, that wanted to come here and make a new start, were invited to come. | ||
| But if the temptation got so great that they couldn't resist, they were asked to leave. | ||
| So drugs were not allowed out here? | ||
|
unidentified
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No. | |
| And what was... | ||
| What had gone on prior to our, you might say, being in charge here was way back in the 80s, mid-80s. | ||
| There was a lab, George Roden had invited some former prisoners to come out here and gave them pretty well free reign to do what they liked. | ||
| Pornography ring and a drug lab and stuff, from what I understand. | ||
| When David came here, when we came back and got our property back in 1988, some of this stuff was found, which we handed over to the Sheriff's Department. | ||
|
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So it was pretty clear, at least with the locals, that you guys were anti-drug. | |
| They all knew our position. | ||
| We had a good rapport with the Sheriff's Department. | ||
| They used to come out here and fish. | ||
| They'd come out here and trade carpets. | ||
| Use the shooting range. | ||
| I don't know about the sheriff's department doing that, but we didn't have a shooting range. | ||
| We had a heap of dirt out there, which people would stick a tin can on us and blocks of wood, you know, and maybe try out shooting a little bit, but we didn't have a shooting range. | ||
| We didn't have military training camp and all that kind of stuff that you hear. | ||
| Well, I mean, for me, shooting range is a term in the backyard. | ||
| Well, what I said, we didn't have targets. | ||
| We didn't have, you know, measured distances or anything. | ||
| And most people... | ||
|
unidentified
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Clive, why do you think the government attacked you guys? | |
| Clive, why do you think the government... | ||
| I think there's a lot of... | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm sorry. | |
| I'm sorry. | ||
| I think there's a lot of reasons... | ||
| I'm going to start over again. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Go ahead. | |
| I believe the attack was on various levels. | ||
| I think that the ATF had an agenda. | ||
| I think that the government... | ||
| This government wants to take over and take away the freedoms of everybody. | ||
| It had an agenda. | ||
| And this was part of their plan. | ||
| But, you know, you hear a lot of stories about what was going on in the ATF. Sexual discrimination within the department, the stories of them being dissolved or reabsorbed into another agency. | ||
| You've heard all those stories. | ||
| Did you ever hear about their Klan meeting when they got caught? | ||
| From our point of view, I believe that, like the Bible says, there's a devil out there and the devil wants to do away with anybody that's trying to improve their lifestyle to do better. | ||
| You start studying the Bible, you're already under suspicion and suspect, and the devil wants to get rid of those kind of people. | ||
| And unfortunately, there are people that lend themselves to bringing that about. | ||
| You know, when it says the devil goes to make a war against the saints, it could be supernatural, but I think it's done through human beings that allow themselves to be directed in that line. | ||
| So puppets. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, thanks, Clark. | |
| Okay, appreciate it. | ||
| Clive, I was going to ask you a question. | ||
| You didn't get a chance. | ||
|
unidentified
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No, I know. | |
| Alex turned us into an interview. | ||
| Well, he's over here talking about it. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah, no, no. | |
| See, now he's an interview mode. | ||
| Real serious. | ||
| Clive, relax if you wear a suit. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, you don't have to be out here, Clive. | |
| No, it was just a question about on that day one, the first day when they came in shooting. | ||
| And you had that. | ||
| A semi-automatic 50-caliber that you said wasn't working. | ||
| But were there any evidence that the feds were shooting 50-caliber rounds? | ||
| I mean, did you see 50-caliber holes in the building at all? | ||
| Because Catherine at one point said when she went out on March 2nd or whatever, there was some kind of like a huge hole in the front door. | ||
| There was some holes in the front door, but I mean... | ||
| They had shotguns. | ||
|
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They had MP5s or whatever. | |
| They had handguns. | ||
| I don't know what all they were shooting, per se. | ||
| I know what they claimed they had, whether that's truthful or not. | ||
| We know there were snipers across the road. | ||
| What they were shooting, we don't know. | ||
| But after the initial raid and the adrenaline kind of calmed down and everything, and we're beginning to hear on the radio. | ||
| The stories that they're putting out, you know, to the media, like, oh, they were shooting all kinds of stuff, 50 caliber. | ||
| I knew we had a 50 caliber. | ||
| David had showed it one night, you know, one of the meetings. | ||
| And so I went to a couple of guys. | ||
| I think I asked, let's see, a couple of guys that were upstairs where the 50 caliber was supposed to be. | ||
| I said, so what's all these stories about us firing the 50 caliber at them? | ||
| One guy says, 50 caliber was never used. | ||
| He said it was sitting over in the corner or something. | ||
| Never got used. | ||
| I asked somebody else about it and they said a.50 caliber couldn't have been used because it doesn't work. | ||
| That was two different people telling me that. | ||
| And so I accepted them. | ||
| I got more reason to believe our guys than I do in these lives, you know. | ||
| So, like I said, if we had it, and if it was automatic, and if we were shooting at them on the first day, then on the last day they got all these tanks busting through into the building. | ||
| Why didn't we use it on them then? | ||
|
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|
Right. | |
| And if we were shooting, which they claimed we were on April 19th, how come they don't play these bug tapes they're supposed to have? | ||
|
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|
Yeah. | |
| They got all these voices from all over the building. | ||
| They've only got one bug tape, they said, that works, but they're supposedly picking voices up from upstairs, downstairs, in the foyer, all over the place. | ||
|
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Yeah, but they already, I think it was about three or four weeks ago they already said it. | |
| That was like all spliced together and tampered with and it's not even a real tape. | ||
| Even though it's spliced, if it's only from one bug, you're not going to hear voices from all over the village. | ||
|
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|
That's right. | |
| And if it's that good, then you should have picked up the 200 shots they claim we fired at the tanks. | ||
|
unidentified
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That's right. | |
| My testimony is that I didn't hear any shooting from inside on April 19th. | ||
|
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|
Yeah. | |
| But did y'all, like... | ||
| Or make Molotov cocktails or any of that sort of stuff? | ||
| They always talk about it. | ||
| I mean, when you're in this kind of a situation, when you're getting all these threats, like we were being told even before April 9th, we don't want anybody in the tower. | ||
| If we see anybody in the tower, we'll consider that a threatening gesture. | ||
| We don't want anybody looking out the windows. | ||
| They start making demands more and more as they got to the end. | ||
| Like I say, that develops an attitude. | ||
| I can remember talking to people in the chat and saying, well, if they do come in with tanks, like, how do you stop a tank for crying out loud? | ||
| You know, because you're thinking all kinds of things. | ||
| What you can do, you know, stick a crowbar in the truck. | ||
| Clive, what about them also calling a few days before the final assault, final attack, where they told you it wasn't an assault, with classic doublespeak? | ||
| Clive, what about them calling and saying, you better have fire extinguishers, or do you have any fire extinguishers? | ||
| That call, from what I understand, was made, I'm not sure of the date, a few days before, I guess, before the last day. | ||
| And Steve Schneider, I believe, was on the phone, and they asked him, did we have any fire extinguishers? | ||
| And he didn't even know, so he kind of asked somebody to run and find out. | ||
|
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And then he tells them, well, I'm told we got one. | |
| And the guy is supposed to have said, you know, you better get yourself some fire insurance. | ||
| But, you know, that's not a first-hand story. | ||
| I mean, other than listening to the tape. | ||
| Oh, it's on the tape? | ||
| It's on the tape, yeah. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Clyde, the reason I'm asking so much about that.50 caliber on that first day is, wasn't it on the first day when that helicopter was shot down? | |
| Or was that on the... | ||
| That was the first day, right? | ||
| I think all three helicopters claimed that we... | ||
| No, there was one that actually... | ||
| None of them, well, I don't know whether it couldn't fly again. | ||
| I don't think it was totally crippled, but it did take some shots, yeah. | ||
|
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|
And the reason I ask that, if there is any evidence, like if they use 50-caliber, maybe on the other helicopters or something, shooting up the building, or if there's any 50-caliber fire at all, is because... | |
| My question is, is that night vision? | ||
|
unidentified
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Yes. | |
| You can take it out of night vision because there's enough light there. | ||
| Take it out and I'll do this. | ||
|
unidentified
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No, no. | |
| I want to make sure I've got something where it's... | ||
| Well, let me just... | ||
| Clive's going to be green on this. | ||
| There, Clive, now you can think about it. | ||
|
unidentified
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No, this is a... | |
| February 28th, I filmed a little green. | ||
|
unidentified
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Okay, hold it. | |
| Even if you do a bright flash, you kind of ruin it, huh? | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah. | |
| Well, it's not film, it's just tapes and it's digital to work. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah. | |
| But, yeah, what... | ||
| Talk, Clive, we've got the light on you. | ||
| I just want to get this question. | ||
| You remember Mario Boinkin, the pizza shop guy from Austin? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| A buddy of his is a maintenance chief, or was at that time a maintenance chief for those helicopters out at Fort Hood. | ||
| And I think it was the day after, one or two days after, when they assaulted a place here, Mario went up to Fort Hood, talked to this guy, and the guy pointed out a.50 caliber hole. | ||
| In that helicopter. | ||
| And Mario told me that he stuck his finger into that hole and he recognized it as being like a.50 caliber size. | ||
| So that's what I was curious if they even shot their own helicopter down. | ||
| I couldn't vouch for that. | ||
| They maintained during the trial that we'd shot at the helicopters and it's quite possible that some of the guys did. | ||
|
unidentified
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Well, I would have if they'd be shooting at my house. | |
| But I've seen some footage. | ||
| A friend in Houston showed us some footage that he had of where these helicopters are flying, you know, they're coming in, approaching the place. | ||
| And then it has this footage where they land in a field out here somewhere. | ||
| I guess it was down over the hill near this neighbor's house. | ||
| And they get out and point right at the hole. | ||
|
unidentified
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And I said, there's something wrong with this footage. | |
| They know exactly where the holes are before they even get out. | ||
| I said, have they done this? | ||
|
unidentified
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Is this the second time they've looked, you know, or not? | |
| It almost looks like it was staged for the camera, because there's a guy taking his picture. | ||
|
unidentified
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They all get out of the helicopter. | |
| Oh, look, look, look, look! | ||
|
unidentified
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That makes sense. | |
| That makes sense. | ||
| Yeah, they didn't actually shoot the helicopter down, but they put holes in it. | ||
| And 50 caliber holes just so they could say that y'all had a 50 caliber machine gun. | ||
| Clive, you said earlier, if they want to burn this down together, they're you said earlier, if they want to burn this down together, they're going to have some trouble, Yeah, we'd even have trouble. | ||
| With all that no burn? | ||
| I tell you, like I said, if God wants it to burn, it'll burn no matter what it's made of brick. | ||
|
unidentified
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Amen. | |
| If God doesn't want it to burn, no matter what they do, it won't burn. | ||
| Amen. | ||
| And that's what you have to put your trust in. | ||
| You know, the final bottom line is whether you believe, you know, in God or not. | ||
| There's a question in the Bible, or a statement, I should say, that says, you know, if the builders build without God on their side, then they build in vain. | ||
| So that's one reason we need to be considerate of how we act and what we talk about and everything else while we're in it. | ||
| This is a special place, you know, it's not just a... | ||
| Any old building sort of thing. | ||
|
unidentified
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So anyway, did we answer your question? | |
| Yes, I believe so. | ||
| I think that's the answer, actually, is they put those holes there themselves. | ||
| Well, I'm not swearing to, but my first question on seeing the footage was, there's something wrong with this picture. | ||
| These guys know where every hole is when they're just jumping out like they've just landed, and this is the first time there's... | ||
| I got out of the plane. | ||
|
unidentified
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You may know you've taken some shots, but you're going to have to look for them. | |
| That's where we got hit. | ||
| This is a staged deal just for the camera. | ||
| This so happened to have a camera there when they landed. | ||
| Now, Claude, they don't lie. | ||
|
unidentified
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I don't know. | |
| Maybe they've been lying so much that it feels like standing up. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yeah. | |
| You know, all the focus. | ||
| After a while, if you lie a lot. | ||
| They had a church up the front gate, you know, when I first came. | ||
| I was doing a job in there one day and the ladder slipped out from under me and the ladder fell down and I landed on my back on top of the ladder. | ||
| Knocked the wind out of me. | ||
| So I was laying there for quite a while before I could get up and I'm looking at the ceiling and all of a sudden my brain just kind of flipped over to where the ceiling looked like the floor. | ||
| Everything looked... | ||
| Like it was the right way up. | ||
| Only the lights were coming up out of the floor and the pews were all along the ceiling. | ||
| You know, just laying there kind of days. | ||
| And maybe that's the way they view things from a different perspective. | ||
| That's good, Clive. | ||
| Thanks. | ||
|
unidentified
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Okay. | |
| Right after the raid, when the ATF and everybody are giving this press conference and everything, they're talking about how we ambushed them and we were all at the windows shooting and all that. | ||
| And I'm going, wow. | ||
| You know, that's not the truth. | ||
| And so I go up to my room, or I've been in my room, and I go back to my room, and my room's intact. | ||
| There's not a bullet hole in my room at all. | ||
| Mine was the third window from the north end. | ||
|
unidentified
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And so I'm going, phew! | |
| You know, at least I can't say Clyde Dove was in his room shooting at the ATF coming in, because I got no bullet holes. | ||
|
unidentified
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There's no reaction to any firing on my part, see? | |
| So this goes on all during this field, I'm thinking. | ||
| This is evidence. | ||
| There's good evidence. | ||
| You know, my room's not shut up. | ||
| My glass is not open. | ||
|
unidentified
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Oh, cool. | |
| Lo and behold, just before the last, you know, maybe a week before the last, they're clearing it. | ||
|
unidentified
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Every time we'd send somebody out, they'd punish us by, you know, tearing up the cars or tearing the fence down. | |
| Throwing a flashbang. | ||
| Whatever. | ||
| So, they come along one day with the tanks, and they're bulldozing all the trees down the fence. | ||
| And I had a tree right outside my window. | ||
| They bulldozed that tree and a branch comes right through the window. | ||
| There goes my evidence that there was no shooting on February 28th because the glass is all smashed up, you know? | ||
| Now, Clive, what did you think when you were told a few minutes before they got here that, hey, somebody's coming out to search the house or the BATF or the police or something? | ||
| What did you think was going to happen if they did come out here for your search? | ||
| Initially? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| I really didn't know. | ||
| I mean, we knew that we were being watched from across the road for about six weeks before the raid. | ||
| Early in January, these guys moved into the house. | ||
| And they start acting strange right from the start. | ||
| I mean, they'd be shooting out in the backyard. | ||
| When we tried to go over and be friendly, they wouldn't let us in the house and all kinds of weird stuff going on. | ||
| So we were suspicious. | ||
| But I never heard David or anyone else say, hey, the ATF watcher. | ||
| We knew. | ||
| Somebody was watching us, but we thought maybe it was immigration people because we had people from all over the world here and we figured they're suspicious, you know, they're watching to see who we got here. | ||
| So it was no big deal. | ||
| But on February 28th, from what I read, I didn't remember, but people tell me it was drizzling or it was raining that day. | ||
| All I can remember was being in my room. | ||
| We'd already had breakfast, and I was back in my room. | ||
| And all of a sudden, I hear a lot of people out here in the cafeteria, and I thought, what's going on? | ||
| Seems to be a lot of people out there, and we've already eaten, so what's the deal? | ||
| So I go in there to find out what's going on, and somebody says, hey, we just got word that somebody's coming. | ||
| It's going to be some kind of a raid or whatever. | ||
| And about that time, David walked in from this side. | ||
| He'd come down the hall, come into the cafeteria from this other side. | ||
| And basically confirmed it. | ||
| He says, we just heard that, you know, the whole bunch of some kind of agents coming. | ||
| And he says, I want everybody to stay cool, go back to your rooms, just be calm. | ||
| He said, I'll go down the front door and talk to them, see what they want, and, you know, try to talk to them. | ||
| So I went back to my room. | ||
| I heard him walk down the hall, heard him open the front door, and next thing, he's yelling, hey, wait a minute, there's women and children here, you know. | ||
| Let's talk about this. | ||
| And all hell breaks loose. | ||
| I mean, there's shots coming in the front door like crazy. | ||
| And my initial reaction was run down the hall because I figured there's going to be blood and guts everywhere. | ||
| Massacre. | ||
| And I get about level with where we are. | ||
| About halfway down the hall and Perry Jones is crawling up the hall screaming that he's being shot. | ||
| He'd gone to the front door with David. | ||
| And he's telling me David's been shot. | ||
| So I'm trying to comfort him. | ||
| He's laying on the floor and screaming. | ||
| And I said, hang in there, Perry, because I'm thinking there's all these other people dead inside the front door or whatever. | ||
| So I go running down there, and lo and behold, there's no one inside, no one in the foyer area at all. | ||
| So I run back to Perry, and I'm trying to help him. | ||
| So on the tape, as we see the BATF from the outside firing in incessantly, you guys are just going around trying to look for people that have been shot. | ||
| You guys aren't lining the windows shooting like the television shows us? | ||
| I mean, like the made-for-TV movies? | ||
| The movies aren't real? | ||
| There'd been a lot more than four dead and 20 wounded if everybody had been there with a gun, an automatic weapon shooting at them. | ||
| But that's not the case. | ||
| In fact, I'd say most people were taken by surprise. | ||
| Even though you were initially told somebody's coming, you don't realize that it's going to be a bloody mess. | ||
| You know what I'm saying? | ||
| You maybe have a little trepidation. | ||
| Are they going to hold us all outside? | ||
| Are we all going to jail? | ||
| What's the procedure? | ||
| You know, we didn't know what was going to happen. | ||
| But David, more or less, said, well, you know, everybody stay calm. | ||
| I'll go down and talk to them, so you figure he'll handle it, you know. | ||
| And so next thing we know, all the shooting at the front door, people upstairs, of course, are hearing the shooting from the helicopters. | ||
| And so, like I say, I went running down a Fard Perry shot. | ||
| Troll, just dragging himself up on his hands and knees sort of thing up the hallway. | ||
| I end up helping him to a bed. | ||
| By the time I put him in a bed on this side of the long hallway in the men's dorm area, somebody says, Winston's dead. | ||
| I said, where's he at? | ||
| They said, well, he's up in his room. | ||
| So I go up there. | ||
| As I get up to that end where his room is, I could hear water running. | ||
| I thought, that's strange. | ||
| What's that? | ||
| So when I get to his doorway and I look in, he's laying on the floor in a pool of blood and water, and his windows all shattered. | ||
| And he had these water tanks out on a platform at the back, and they were completely blocking his windows. | ||
| Not like you could see in or he could see out. | ||
| These big plastic water tanks were right up against his window. | ||
| But what the helicopters had done, it riddled all the water tanks, and he was sitting on the other side of it and got a bullet in the head. | ||
| Was there any water coming in? | ||
| Oh yeah, it was all over his floor. | ||
| The carpet was soaked with blood and water. | ||
| And of course, I'm trying to feel for a pulse. | ||
| He was a pretty big black guy from England, had a real thick neck. | ||
| So I'm thinking, is it this that I can't find a pulse? | ||
| Is it really dead, you know? | ||
| Where was the bullet all in his head? | ||
| I don't remember exactly. | ||
| I remember he was lying there, you know. | ||
| How many holes would you estimate? | ||
| I mean, a lot of holes, or just a few holes in the water tanks? | ||
| Oh, there was a lot. | ||
| In fact, one day during the siege, I was going by the doorway there, and I looked in, and Greg's sitting, he'd gone upstairs and got all the boys' little plastic toy soldiers, you know, little plastic men and that, and he's sitting there with a little dinky miniature blowtorch thing, trying to melt the plastic men to plug up the holes in the water tank, because we were going to try to get the pump going again. | ||
| Maybe fill them up with water. | ||
| And I says, you're wasting your time, Greg. | ||
| And he says, what do you mean? | ||
| I says, well, you're filling all the holes on the window side, on the inside. | ||
| I said, but they're riddled on the other side, too. | ||
|
unidentified
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You know, unless you're going to go out and expose yourself and fill them up, it's still going to leak out the other side. | |
| Now, what angle were the holes coming in? | ||
| They were coming down there. | ||
| The high on the outside, low on the inside. | ||
| There's nothing out there that, you know, you can't say, well... | ||
| There's a guy in a big building across the alley, you know, shooting down into your room. | ||
| Because there's nothing but... | ||
| Yeah, it's sky, you know. | ||
| Not even the snipers up there, I don't believe, could have done it. | ||
| Because it was coming at a... | ||
| They're at the same level, that house. | ||
| Right, that's what I'm saying. | ||
| It would have to be from playing a helicopter or something. | ||
| So you were expecting to be brought on the lawn and have them search through your stuff. | ||
| I had, like I said, this was a couple of days later when the arrangement was that we would all go out. | ||
| We'd all come out together. | ||
| And so I went down to the kitchen here and packed a lunch, paper bag lunch, you know, for my daughter and I. And I'm thinking, you know, we'll all just go out and we'll sit on the lawn and they'll come in here and search the building, get whatever they come to get. | ||
| And when they're through, we'll all come back in. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That's how stupid it was, naive. | |
| But as time wore on and more and more people came out, they're all going to jail. | ||
| You're seeing pictures on the TV of them in their orange suits and being arraigned in court and all that kind of thing. | ||
| This is not going to be simplified. | ||
| What about later, when branch of Indians would try to come out and get papers or documents or give things to the federal government? | ||
| That was probably about, I'd say, the last week before the fire. | ||
| So even when the feds... | ||
| If somebody come out on the roof, if they come out a window or doorway, for whatever reason, including Steve Schneider, who had already arranged over the phones to come out, they were going to bring some kind of stuff in. | ||
| I don't know whether it was the supplies for the typewriter or what. | ||
| They were bringing something in in a tank. | ||
| They pulled up out there on the driver. | ||
| He came out the front door, walked over to him. | ||
| They gave him the stuff. | ||
| He turned around and got just about to open the front door and they lobbed these two flashbangs out of him. | ||
| Scared the daylights out of him. | ||
| But David Jones got lobbed out. | ||
| We were out in the gym one day digging a hole for the potty hole, you know. | ||
| For dead? | ||
| No, no, no. | ||
| For waste. | ||
| Oh, okay. | ||
| We could hear them lobbing these things out, you know, just outside the wall. | ||
| It's kind of scary, you know, even though they're on the other side of the wall. | ||
| Flashbang grenades? | ||
| Well, that's what I assumed they were. | ||
| It sounded like the same kind of noise, you know. | ||
| We didn't see those ones, but like I heard that Pablo Cohen got flashbangs. | ||
| David Jones got flashbangs. | ||
| Steve Schneider got flashbangs. | ||
| So they would call you out to give you information or give you milk or whatever and throw flashbangs. | ||
| Steve went out on, you might say, an official agreed-upon rendezvous on that particular day. | ||
| Some of the other guys might have just stepped out for a breath of fresh air or for whatever. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I'm sure you guys called to the negotiators and brought that up. | ||
| What did they say when you said, hey, you told us to come out, you're throwing grenades at us? | ||
| I'm sure Steve did, but I don't remember all the conversations back and forth. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Most times when you brought anything to their attention, to the negotiators' attention, They would disassociate themselves. | |
| Well, you know, we tell you things in good faith and, you know, we're the good guys. | ||
| But the tactical team, we got no control over them, and they just do whatever they want to do. | ||
| Good cop, bad cop. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Do you think it was good cop, bad cop psychology? | ||
| I think some of the negotiators genuinely were upset that they were losing credibility because of the actions of the people in the tanks and so forth. | ||
| I think, you know, one was hurting the other's efforts. | ||
| So you think the negotiators and the troops out here actually had a little bit of a feud going, or you don't know? | ||
| Yeah, I think there's a certain amount of rivalry. | ||
| I think there's, you know, they like to throw up at David. | ||
| When we didn't come out as agreed early in the piece, they made this accusation. | ||
| Well, you're a lie. | ||
| You know, you're a man of your word. | ||
| You can't be trusted. | ||
| And on one of the tapes, you know, David brings up and says, well, you know, you promised certain things the other day, and now it's different, or, you know, you didn't come through for us. | ||
| Well, you've got to understand, we're just peons. | ||
| You know, we're just here doing the negotiating, but we've got bosses over us making decisions. | ||
| Well, then how can we make a deal with you? | ||
| And then, you know, they've got bosses in Washington that overrule them, and you've just got to understand, we really don't have a whole lot of power. | ||
| And David says, well, why is it that you can't understand that I've got a boss upstairs that sometimes overrules, you know, something we've agreed on yesterday? | ||
| He may say no. | ||
| Why can't you understand that I've got a higher-up person that I've got an answer to, and yet, you know, you want to call me a liar. | ||
| You want to say, well, I'm not a man of my word. | ||
| But you can cop out when your promises don't come by because, well, we've got people over us. | ||
| We've heard about them. | ||
| The hostage rescue team's military people mooning and flashing you guys. | ||
| Was that one reason you guys didn't? | ||
| It certainly develops an attitude. | ||
| Even though things may or may not, I don't know people's hearts, but at one point the people from the Methodist home where they were taking all our kids, they sent a video in supposedly to show us how well they were treating our kids. | ||
| We've got the TV blaring and the kids have got an ice cream and a coke and watching videos and they're just bouncing off the furniture like they're having a sugar high. | ||
| And most of the mothers that saw it were pretty upset and gone, that is not the way we taught our children to behave. | ||
| It's not that we wouldn't give them that ice cream. | ||
| Or something, a drink, you know, from time to time, but it wasn't their steady diet. | ||
| But they thought they were being good to the kids by just loading them up with sugar and stuff. | ||
| And like I said, one of the comments I heard was, this is sad, you know. | ||
| You wouldn't think some of these kids just saw their mother shot or saw some of their friends wounded a few days before. | ||
| Here they are, clowning for the camera and all this kind of stuff. | ||
| And, you know, like I said, the people that made the video may have had good intentions, but it was used, it had a negative effect, we'll say, on us. | ||
| A lot of the parents that still had children, they were hesitant about wanting to send them out to this kind of a situation. | ||
| The same with when, you know, you made reference to the mooning and giving the finger and making threats and all. | ||
| It all develops an attitude in the people that you're dealing with. | ||
| Hey, he's a bunch of... | ||
| Monsters or these are people who wants to give their kids... | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mike, you're yelling as loud as you possibly could. | |
| So, you know, every situation creates... | ||
| And your moods go up and down. | ||
| You're going through rationed food. | ||
| You're going to have to go to the bathroom on a bucket and empty it, you know, dig a hole and bury it or whatever. | ||
| We were used to, you might say, primitive conditions compared to some people. | ||
| But that was even a harder thing to have to deal with for 51 days. | ||
| Like I said, everything can make you have an attitude. | ||
| From what I remember of people's comments and stuff like that, they were not too respectful, you might say. | ||
| By the time you get through the 51 days, they don't have much... | ||
| A bad hair day. | ||
| Faith and confidence. | ||
| A bad hair day. | ||
| Trust in the FBI. Yeah, and a bad hair day. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Pretty cranky. | |
| Well, I mean, like I said, we were used to hardship. | ||
| The hardship was bothering us in a way, but it wasn't having the desired effect that they wanted it to have. | ||
| In other words, several people that survived and came out, I know, lost 25 to 30 pounds, including myself, in weight just from lack of water and food because we were on rations. | ||
| We weren't mad because we were hungry, sort of thing. | ||
| We were more upset with the attitudes that were coming across the phones or the loudspeakers. | ||
| Things like that. | ||
| The fact that they weren't operating in good faith. | ||
| Plus, you know, we're watching them every day get up and do these media briefings at 10 o'clock every morning at the convention center and they're just lying or they're painting a picture that's just making us look like You know, kooks. | ||
| Bob, did you ever stop and think that while this is going on, it's setting the stage for, hey, the government's good, we go raid bad people, we take them out, they're kooks, you're on our side, we're the winning team, kind of like a Super Bowl mentality nationwide for 51 days? | ||
| What I see with law enforcement and government agents, especially on the federal level, is that... | ||
| They want to come across as a good guy. | ||
| They want to be the public to believe in them. | ||
| It makes their job easier. | ||
| But in all reality, the bottom line is they don't give a damn what you think. | ||
| But they would like you to think that they're a good guy. | ||
| So they'll go to a certain amount of subterfuge and lying and painting the other guy bad. | ||
| To make themselves look good, they'd like you to accept that image, but if you don't, they really don't care. | ||
| They're going to do what they're going to do anyway. | ||
| Well, the big thing is they want to get local support because Climb, the last seven years, we're coming up on seven years, coming up on April 19th here in 2000. I've talked to so many SWAT team, police, military, government agents, talked to them across the board on the radio and off the air. | ||
| They say that starting seven years ago, Waco was the kickoff for merging the military and the police. | ||
| What's the excuse? | ||
| Just like, you know, Reagan and Brady and all them people getting wounded was enough to start all this gun legislation and things like that. | ||
| What is gun control about? | ||
| Why do powerful governments always seek to disarm the population? | ||
| Because they don't want a population that can fight back or to protect themselves. | ||
| They want subdued people. | ||
| They want people that will do what they're told. |
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