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Sept. 28, 2015 - Art Bell
02:23:34
Art Bell MITD - Nick Redfern Unsolved Mysteries
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From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good
morning, good afternoon, as the case may be around the world.
Each and every time zone covered like a big blanket by this program, Midnight in the Desert.
I'm Art Bell.
It is my pleasure to be here.
And I've got a number of housekeeping things I want to cover with you.
First of all, no bad language.
We have two rules.
No bad language and only one call per show.
That's easy, right?
Easy peasy, as somebody says.
I want to thank Telos, Bill Talbot, Keith Rowland, my webmaster, Heather Wade, my producer, and listen to me, everybody.
This girl was born with a phone to her ear.
If you have somebody you want to suggest as a guest, somebody who would be really good, then you're going to want to get hold of Heather.
Heather Wade, my producer.
So, how do you do that?
She is producer at artbell.com.
Not real hard.
Streamguys, lv.net, Sales, Pete Eberhard, of course.
Tune in, Radio Leo Ashcraft, Dark Matter News.
I think we're the only ones with a separate Dark Matter Newscast right in the middle of our show.
I don't think anybody else does that.
So, listen, I'm going to ask you all a big favor.
Coming tomorrow is the big announcement.
I think actually tonight Beginning tonight, we are experimentally on XDS.
Now, what does that mean?
XDS is... That's three letters only.
XDS means that we are now sitting inside the satellite receivers of about 4,000 stations nationwide.
And by the way, it's open.
So all you have to do is flip it on, if you're out there in radio world, and let us know you put us on.
Actually, you have to let us know, but it is open.
Now, the favor I'm going to ask of all of you is, this is still unofficial, tomorrow night it'll be official, uh, please call your local radio station, ask, if possible, for the manager or the PD, program director, and request Art Bell's Midnight in the Desert.
I say, unabashedly, That we have better content, more content, fewer commercials, six max an hour, no infomercials, a self-contained paranormal newscast, and we can provide ratings that will knock your socks off.
And stations come on a first-come, first-served basis.
So it's going to get a little hectic for a while.
But if you would all pick up the phone sometime tomorrow and call the manager and request the show, that would be great, because baby, here we come.
All right.
So, again, personal news.
Asia is better and back in school.
Yay.
My wife had quite a week, all week long, tending for Asia.
Now to the news that is sort of news.
First of all, NASA, the big announcement!
Mars has running water!
I about yawned.
Richard C. Hoagland said that 15 years ago on my show.
Back then, people laughed.
So, there you go, running water on Mars.
Liquid water runs down canyons, crater walls, over the summer months on Mars.
They have concluded that trickles leave long, dark stains, which we have seen for a long, long time, on the Martian terrain that can reach hundreds of meters downhill in the warmer months, before they finally dry up in the autumn as surface temps drop and it freezes.
Images taken from the Mars Orbit Show Cliffs And the steep walls of valleys and craters streaked with summertime flows that in the most active spots combined to form intricate fan-like patterns.
Frankly, any idiot could have seen that it was where water flows.
Scientists are unsure where the water comes from.
They think it might rise up from the underground ice or salty aquifers.
Or a condense out of the thin Martian atmosphere.
Now, of course, they say it is salty.
And that, you know, life as we know it could not exist on that water.
It does, however, make possible a colony on Mars.
Any volunteers?
One-way mission.
At least we know you got water when you get there.
Anyway, I'm unimpressed by the fact that it would not support life as we know it.
Who the heck thinks life as we know it is what it's going to be up there?
It'd be life as we don't know it!
Sheesh!
I mean, what if little crawly things enjoy salty water?
What if they thrive on briny water?
So, you know, NASA does uh... one announcement a decade a decade late minimum of a decade all right this is going to start to get to be serious stuff here about twenty four years well let me begin here the united states announced today with uh... video on cnn that we are doing a one
A trillion dollar nuclear weapons upgrade.
So what do they do?
Hop into somebody's living room in presumably Russia or Beijing and say, hi there, you're screwed.
Boom!
A trillion dollars.
Do you know what a trillion dollars could do for us?
Anyway, we're going to make them better, we say.
About 24 years after the end of the Cold War, Russia and the U.S.
seem to be engaged, right now, suddenly, in a nuclear arms race, once again, that could have disastrous consequences, obviously.
Russia's Deputy Prime Minister claims that Russia's nuclear weapons can't be stopped by the U.S.
They fire them, they hit.
That's what he says.
So, if a war breaks out, they can stomp whatever we throw, or we can't stomp whatever they throw at us.
In a talk show with the state-run ROESA, that's a television channel there, he claimed that Russia has developed a new technology that could easily overcome the U.S.
missile defense system.
He's overseeing the modernization of the country's nuclear weapons.
Last year, He announced that he would overhaul the country's entire nuclear arsenal by 2020.
It is part of Putin's rearmament program that is estimated to cost, oh say, about 700 billion.
So, they're roughly spending about three quarters of what we are, but they're ahead of us now.
Russia's deployed nuclear capacity has overtaken the U.S.
for the first time since the year 2000.
According to a report from the U.S.
State Department now, this is really, actually is really serious stuff, folks.
What was the Cold War is becoming the Cold War again.
I guess you've noticed Russian bombers making close passes by our planes, buzzing our ships, And they are now ahead of us in nuclear weapons, and we're both about, well, we're going to spend more than they will, so I guess we'll be even by then?
Maybe?
How many times could we blow ourselves into little bits?
Well, I want to serve up a little bit of a warning.
Tomorrow night, we are going to do a program on global thermonuclear warfare.
And I serve up a warning because it is legitimately scary, scary stuff.
We are going to talk about how a war might start, we're going to talk about how it might escalate, and what the use of those weapons by both sides would mean.
For those of you that have been busily adding new dates to predict the end of the world, You really might want to listen to this one.
That's tomorrow night.
And I also reflect a little bit on Dr. Jacobs.
I've got to have David Jacobs back.
And I'm going to reschedule him.
The invasion that he described of the human race, that he believes is underway right now, is insidious.
Kind of like, it reminded me when I thought a little bit about it, of Father Malachi Martin's perfectly possessed people.
Aliens.
Kind of like perfectly possessed, I would say.
Right?
Pretty good analogy when you think about it.
Oh, one more thing.
We are still hunting for a wicked witch.
That's right.
A wicked witch.
And when I say wicked, I mean Oh, I guess I can use all the words.
Cauldron-stirring, broom-riding, spell-casting, mean-spirited.
Well, you don't have to be mean-spirited, I guess.
But you get the idea.
I want a wicked, wicked witch.
Now, I guess you can be a good person and still be a wicked witch, right?
So we're still on the hunt, and if you know of one, And you really need to do a test of wickedness.
Not Wiccan-ness.
Wickedness.
A lot of Wiccans out there, but they're not wicked.
So you know what I'm after, right?
The tough, mean things.
The ones that, well, when they walk down the street toward you, you sort of move out of the way, because you know, well, you know if you do the wrong thing, that could be trouble.
Yeah, I think that gets most things out of the way.
We'll go into the XDS thing a little tomorrow.
I think we're up there right now, by the way, testing.
So, on all those XDS receivers, kind of exciting.
Coming up in a moment is Nick Redford.
He is a full-time author.
And journalists specializing in a wide range of unsolved mysteries for over 30 years, to include UFO sightings, alien abductions, paranormal phenomena, cryptozoology, and men in black.
That'll be the topic tonight.
He writes regularly for the London Daily Express newspaper, Portuguese Times, Fate, and UFO magazine.
His previous books include Strange Secrets, Cosmic Clashes, and The FBI Files.
Among his many exploits, Redfern has investigated reports of lake monsters in Scotland, vampires in Puerto Rico and werewolves in England, aliens in Mexico, sea serpents in the U.S.
Really?
Redfern travels and lectures extensively around the world.
Originally from England, he currently lives in Dallas, Texas, and it's really going to be my first line of inquiry to find out why a Brit would decide to settle in Dallas.
I wonder if he wears a 10-gallon hat, straps to the side, all that stuff.
Hey, everybody.
Raging in the night, this is Midnight in the Desert.
And she knows I'd love to love her, but she lets me down every time.
Can't make her mind...
...let you have, cause there's magic in my way.
I can see for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles.
Let's do it, shall we?
I have a lot to learn about men in black.
package your way on the dark matter digital network to call the show please
direct your finger digits to dial one nine five two two two five fifty two
seventy eight that's one nine five two call art uh... in the
hi everybody let's do it showing um... i have a lot to learn about
men in black mcgrath earned welcome to midnight in the desert
Hey Art, thanks for having me on.
Well, thanks for being here.
I'm curious, Nick, it just doesn't seem to me that most Brits would pick up and go to Texas.
How did that happen?
Well, you mentioned in my bio that I work as a writer and also a journalist, and I do a lot of freelance work for other authors as well, like hired research and things like that.
I actually got offered a job which went on for about three years, but it required me to be over here because the person who was employing me was writing a book and needed somebody to do the research for him, but a lot of it was based around the Dallas area and so it sounded like a cool gig to do.
So I came over and I got the job and then applied for residency and did all the All the legal paperwork stuff, just in case Donald Trump's listening.
Actually, you know what, I hear your British accent is fading a bit.
Is it really?
Yes, it is.
Well, it has been 15 years.
Are you yetsing y'all?
No, I've never actually got around to doing that yet, and I don't have the 10-gallon hat quite yet.
But I like the Dallas area, you know, it's sort of a cool city.
It's got a good, you know, social scene and not far away from Austin and San Antonio.
So, you know, it's it's sort of central.
And yeah, as I said, I've been here 15 years, did all the the legal emigration stuff.
And isn't that fun?
Well, it was it was just I didn't have any problems with it.
I mean, it was just a case of filling out the paperwork and just waiting for the You know, the return of the paperwork, and then the next document has to be signed, and so on.
But there were no issues as such.
It was just a process I expected to go through, where they interview you, of course, and background checks, that kind of thing, which makes sense.
And that was it.
Everything was sort of very smooth, cordial, and there weren't really any problems at all.
Really glad it went well for you.
It's hard to get started with this kind of thing.
I guess you don't get to Men in Black until you get to UFOs.
Is that fair?
Well, you know, for the most part it is, yes.
I mean, everybody thinks of the Men in Black, and they obviously think of UFOs.
And I think for the general public, because of the success of the Men in Black movies, You know, their first thought is Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones in terms of, you know, how the men in black look and act.
But if you look at the real reports of the men in black, they're actually very, very different.
They're sort of quite creepy and strange.
And they're not always tied with UFOs, although for the most part they are.
But there's so many different strands and angles to the men in black mystery that's what makes it
so fascinating you know in terms of well who are they what do they want and where they are
where are they from there are so many different issues and cases and odd quirks in relation to
the men in black that uh you know i've actually written three books on the subject because
there's so much information and so many different theories for who or what they are
Would you guess that their original mission began with trying to stop UFO stories in their tracks?
Oh yeah, I mean, you know, the so-called modern era of UFOs began in 1947 with Kenneth Arnold's famous sighting over Washington State, the Cascade Mountains.
However, although there were one or two early men in black reports in 47 and 48, for the most part, the whole thing didn't really kick off until 1951.
And this revolved around a guy named Albert Bender, who lived in Bridgeport, Connecticut.
And Albert Bender was someone who set up an organization called the International Flying Saucer Bureau.
There were a lot of small UFO groups, Regional groups at the time around the United States, the UK and a few other countries such as Australia.
And they may have had a circulation of 40 or 50 here, something like that.
But Bender's organization, the IFSB, really took off big time to the point where he literally had circulations in the low thousands, which was really good, you know, for 1951-52.
And the subscriptions were coming in from all around the world and the magazine that he put out under the International Flying Saucer Bureau banner was doing really well, you know, he's having sighting reports sent to him, he's been asked to do radio shows and even TV shows and everything was running smoothly until suddenly the Men in Black intruded on his life and it all went downhill from there for Albert Bender and it was a very Sinister situation for him.
Can you describe what happened to him?
Did he describe it?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, well, what happened was, as I said, you know, the image that most people have of the men in black is from the movies.
You know, the idea of a super secret group within government or some sort of like a black budget program that operates outside of government.
So, in other words, people need to understand that the movies followed the reality, not the reality following the movies.
Well, certainly the movies were based upon the real reports in terms of how they dressed and the threat.
But if you read from Bender's experiences onwards, the men in black in reality actually don't sound physically, in terms of what they look like, like their movie versions.
For example, pretty much a good, I would say, 95-96% of all the cases, And this begins with Bender.
The witnesses describe them as sort of only about five feet tall to five feet five.
Very strange looking, very pale skin, no blemishes or lines on their faces, almost as if they look like a mannequin in some respect.
I was going to say an alien.
Well actually, you know, that's one of the things, I mean, you mentioned, for example, David Jacobs.
The interesting thing about the Men in Black mystery is there are some eerily close parallels with some of the things that David Jacobs has written about and researched that ties in with the Men in Black.
In other words, very sort of human looking entities moving amongst us, but when you have a good look at them, there are things about them that just don't seem right.
And that's what Albert Bender said, that he would get Not so much visitations, but he talked about how he would see these shadowy figures, and in some cases, they would even sort of literally materialize in his bedroom.
And he described them as having, as I said, very pale skin.
I guess today, you know, we would talk about them almost looking sort of overly Botoxed, you know, very strange looking, emotionless, no lines.
And Bender said that they essentially Spoke to him in a telepathic fashion and warned him to leave the UFO subject.
And Bender, like a good UFO researcher, he did as he was told.
He left the subject.
Oh, he did?
He caved in?
Yeah, he absolutely caved in.
And what happened was that he closed the IFSB down, the International Flying Saucer Bureau.
Canceled his magazine and a lot of people who subscribe to it as I said in the thousands thought this was some kind of publicity stunt you know when you see a band and they say they're going on their final tour so you better come and see us now and then they come back five years later that didn't happen that's what everybody thought though and Bender was so Petrified by these repeated encounters and he said he saw the men in black sometimes following him in the streets late at night if he'd be coming home from the cinema and they'd have these sort of long black trench coats on and black fedoras and these piercing eyes and it was sort of very menacing and almost in some respects his story's not so much
Man in Black is almost like X-Files meets H.P.
Lovecraft.
It's sort of like a gothic horror story mixed in with UFO conspiracies.
Well, you realize that his behavior, as you described it, could be described as a classic psychological symptom as well.
Paranoia.
Paranoia.
Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt that Bender was paranoid.
I guess the thing is, you know, was it a psychological paranoia or was he driven to paranoia?
Or was it possibly both?
And what's interesting that in terms of Bender's story, it's a fascinating one because he was a very sort of fascinating character with a lot of, you know, facets to his character.
In terms of, he was deeply involved in the occult, for example.
I mean, heavily, in sort of seriously dark occult things.
He actually created, for example, what he described as an altar in his attic, of all places, to try and summon up supernatural entities.
And he actually wondered if it kind of opened a portal or a doorway to allow something Paranormal through.
That was one of the theories he looked at.
But yeah, you can look at some of the aspects of Bender's life and see that there were significant psychological issues.
By his own admission, he developed OCD, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, but he said that was due to the fact that he became so terrified by this situation.
You know, he'd be repeatedly checking the front doors were locked at night, and the windows were locked, and then he'd go and check again, and that kind of overtook his life.
You know, it's a fascinating case history of a man steeped in paranoia and at the heart of it all these sort of almost gothic men in black.
Well, you know, Nick, I think that it's more than just a theory.
I think that if you If you put up an altar, as you mentioned, if you call upon these things to be part of your life, if you want to be involved with them, that is a very, very strong invitation in the paranormal world for whatever's out there to come and, at the very least, have a look.
And yeah, I mean, you open something, you allow something in, and once it's in, it doesn't always like a good visitor leave on time.
No, you're right, and I mean, I've done a lot of investigations and interviews with people who've sort of delved into, you know, paranormal phenomena, think it's all cool and exciting, and the more they get into it, they find themselves, I guess, surrounded by entities that they've called forth that they're not really sure what they are, but, you know, they cause havoc in people's lives.
Oh, they do.
All right, Nick, hold tight.
Nick Redfern is my guest.
We're going to be deep.
Into the Men in Black this night.
Keep that in mind if you have a UFO sighting.
Because I guess these guys are still out there working.
I'm Art Bell.
Some velvet morning when I'm straight.
I'm gonna open up your...
While midnight sweeps across America, you've found an oasis for the mind.
To call Midnight in the Desert, please dial 1-952-CALL-ART.
That's 1-952-225-5278.
Call Art, that's 1-952-225-5278.
That so sets the atmosphere, doesn't it?
Hi, everybody. I'm...
I'm Art Dowell.
My guest is Nick Redfern.
And we are discussing men in black.
Actually, a very, very serious subject, certainly it was, to Albert Bender.
And gee, Nick, I don't know what to say, except if he actually, you know, publicized, told everybody that these guys came to see him, and then really threw it in and never came back.
No publicity stunt.
then I guess he really met them.
Well what happened Art was that this was sort of 52, 53 when he finally threw in the towel so to speak
and a guy named Gray Barker who was fascinated by Bender's story
wrote a book about it in 1956 called They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers
which told parts of Bender's story but only the parts that Bender wanted to share
and it certainly didn't go into all the bizarre paranormal stuff that Bender talks about himself.
But what happened was he just very briefly resurfaced in 1962 when Barker, who was also a publisher, convinced Bender to write his own book, which he did.
It was called Flying Saucers and the Three Men.
And it was a very small book, but told the story of how these men in black
would sort of appear and materialize and dematerialize.
And they had more of almost like a demonic quality to them, I guess.
And, but then when he put that book out, then he said, look, I'm done with it.
And that was now 53 years ago.
And he stayed out of the UFO subject for the rest of his entire life
and would not correspond with anyone.
He wouldn't even promote the book barely after it came out.
He just essentially wrote it because Barker asked him to, and that was it.
And he walked away from the subject.
And that's actually not something you see very often in the UFO subject where, you know,
if somebody says, I'm quitting, that's it, I'm done.
They typically do come back.
Here I am proof of that, yes.
Bender never did.
He just stayed away and said, I'm done with it.
He just, in his own words, pretty much, he said he just felt that he couldn't get
into that sort of turmoil of dealing with what he initially assumed
were gonna be government people.
And then when he got the visit, so to speak, they were anything but that.
There was, as I said, there were far more HP Lovecraft than they were the X-Files.
Mm-hmm.
Well, it's not easy to be visited by people like that, especially ones that communicate with you, my God.
So, was that the first men in black that you're aware of visit?
There are one or two earlier ones, but that's without doubt the Bender case is the one that really began the entire Men in Black mystery.
And it was actually Gray Barker's book that told the story of the Men in Black, that coined the term Men in Black.
Barker in 1956 was the first person to use the term Men in Black as a, you know, as a specific term to describe these entities.
So in that sense, It's a very important case, but it opened the doors for some people who said, well, this is really interesting because I had an experience very much like that, but before that date.
But in other words, so in other words, Bender did prompt some people to come forward who claimed earlier reports with the men in black.
But had Bender's story not been the first one that got so popularized, those other ones probably wouldn't have come forward.
I wonder if the three wise men were counseled that no, you don't see that star.
Well, you know, that's interesting because, as I said, Bender's book was called Flying Saucers and the Three Men, and the reason why it was called that is because typically the men in black turn up in groups of three.
Now, there have been reports of one and two, but for the most part, it's three.
So, you know, that's an interesting angle.
Well, all right, so obviously since that time, not the time I mentioned, the one you mentioned, 50s following 47, I guess.
There have been many, many, many incidences of men in black.
I think even Dan Aykroyd reported them, right?
Yeah.
I mean, the men in black, a lot of people don't realize the sheer number of reports that surface.
I mean, I mentioned at the beginning, I've written three books on the men in black and the most recent one, which is just called, or actually the brand new one, which came out last week, the men in black.
Um, what I've found is, and I think most authors get this, when you write on a particular subject, people who've had their own experiences tend to contact you on, you know, that subject.
Same exact thing happens to talk show hosts, of course.
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
And, you know, somebody writes a book on crop circles, people contact him about crop circles.
Well, having written, you know, extensively on the men in black, I probably get I would say somewhere in the region of 40 or 50 reports a year, something like that, like one or two a week, something maybe close to.
And the reports I get, you know, sometimes they are older cases, but many of them are literally right up to the present day.
I mean, the new book's got cases from 2014 and 2015.
Okay, well, if you're still getting reports of MIB visits, then I am very, very curious, because You know, if I were an entity, let's say a government entity, that were dispatching these men in black, and that's just sort of a little setup there, I wouldn't be so concerned about it anymore, because there are so many reports of flying objects now, that to send men in black, it seems to me, would just punctuate and enhance the report of the person who made it.
No, that's a good point, and you're right.
But I think one of the important things to note is most of the people who report the MIB today, they actually sound far more like what we say David Jacobs was talking about.
You know, they look semi-human, but they camouflage themselves with fedora hats and black wrap-around sunglasses, turned-up collars.
And in many respects, you know, the sort of things David's been talking about, you can actually make a good case that the men in black could be an aspect of that sort of an infiltration.
Okay, alright, now you've done it.
You've brought up David Jacobs' name, Dr. Jacobs' name, several times, and I've held myself back, but I can't do it anymore.
I did a show with him the other night.
I don't know if you're aware of that or not.
Yes, I was, yes.
One hell of a show, if I do say so myself.
And what he described was an alien invasion, Nick, and maintains that we are in the middle of that invasion right now by creatures that are part human and part not human.
And that these creatures have the ability to read minds, And that this invasion is going along quite swimmingly.
And I wonder if you would care to comment.
I found it particularly chilling and surely possible.
And I wonder how you feel about it.
Well, yeah, I mean, it's one of these situations where I actually take a lot of notice of what David Jacobs has written, particularly like in his earlier book, The Threat.
The main reason being, because having written about the Men in Black for so long, I've noticed a lot of deep parallels between the two phenomena.
I mean, for example, in the new book I've got cases where people have said the Men in Black have visited them, and as I've said earlier, they have this strange skin.
Some witnesses have said they lack pores, or it's not a single line on their face at all.
As bizarre as it sounds, some of the men in black are described as clearly wearing wigs and in some cases where it looks like they've got makeup on to even try and make their skin look more healthy and human looking.
You get a lot of really bizarre things like this.
And if it's people making it up, I think they would make up something along the lines of, you know, the Will Smith, Tommy Lee Jones movie image, because that's a popular culture image.
They wouldn't be making up bizarre stories like this, which you can find all across the planet.
And so a lot of the stories I get do actually sort of eerily parallel these stories of human alien hybrids that kind of look like us.
But if you're, you know, if you're walking down the street late at night and The person or the thing has got the collar turned up and hats on, you probably wouldn't notice too much.
You see them in the daylight and you, you know, you bump into them by mistake and yet for a second or two you get a good look at them, then you might think, wow, has that person got a strange genetic condition or something like that.
So in other words, it's not out of reason that the creatures you're describing, I use that word instead of humans, the creatures you're describing Could be very much like what Dr. Jacobs is describing.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, you know, the whole issue of the camouflage, you know, the sunglasses and moving about in the streets.
I mean, that's what the men in black have done for a long time.
So I wonder if, you know, we're actually dealing with an almost identical or if not identical phenomenon.
But there's had different ways over the years of targeting us now.
You know, the stuff that David talks about is more along, you know, like a large-scale infiltration.
Yes.
Back in the fifties and sixties, you know, the reports weren't on that scale.
So that, in one respect, you could make a case, I guess, that the Men in Black were more of like the initial front line that first went out.
All right, well, imagine this for a moment.
Imagine this for a moment, Nick.
Excuse me.
But if their original mission, as we touched on at the beginning, Was to squash UFO reports.
That's reports of ships in our atmosphere.
Now, imagine how important to the same group it would be to squash talk of an actual ongoing invasion of our planet.
It seems to me that would be very high on their list.
Well, yeah, you're right.
And I think, you know, the issue of these entities visiting people's homes and, you know, the witnesses clearly realizing that these aren't normal looking people demonstrates a couple of things, to me at least.
One may be they're trying to sort of test the waters as to how successfully or not they get recognized for what they are or for what they're not.
You know, I mean, The witness response is usually, Oh my God, that person was five feet tall.
They looked anemic and 120 pounds and had bulging eyes hidden behind these big sunglasses.
They knew they weren't dealing with, you know, sort of 1950s era G-Men as they were known from the FBI.
You know, they clearly weren't anything along those lines, but, um, You know, most of the reports, as I said, were extremely strange, and Bender kicked it all off.
And then, obviously, through the 60s, it just continued.
A lot of people like Brad Steiger, you know, a very famous figure in the whole paranormal field.
I know Brad, I'm sure, very well.
Oh, great.
Well, yeah, I mean, Brad, in the new book I've got out, Men in Black, Brad actually very kindly wrote an entire paper about his own personal
experiences with the men in black and how they even Impacted on his friends and started to threaten his friends
Essentially, you know to try and get the word back to him.
I guess to to leave it all alone and So even Brad himself found himself
Infected I guess he's a you know, not a bad time to use when you consider
How these things work? Well, you know So people are funny.
I mean, they say, oh man, he gave in.
But if somebody came to you, somebody of questionable origins, let's put it that way, and threatened you, and even more so, threatened your family, I think most people in this audience, especially at the threat of family, would leave it the heck alone.
Well, I think they would leave it alone.
Maybe, but I mean, I'm the sort of character when, you know, if somebody says, don't do this, it's like a red rag to a bull, as they say, you know what I mean?
I do.
But when it's family... Well, that's true, yeah.
I mean, it's one thing to investigate UFOs, it's another thing to have your family threatened.
So, you know, I do understand that.
Equally, I also think, you know, that I would like to think if they ever sort of knocked on my door, I would stand up to them.
But one of the interesting things, and again with parallel with what David Jacobs says, is that the men in black seem to have the ability to affect people's minds.
You know, not just mind reading, but mind control almost, to where the person essentially becomes like a slave during the interrogation and... Ding, ding, ding!
Yes, you imagine most people wouldn't open the door at midnight or eleven o'clock to three creepy looking little guys with white faces, but people do let them in, and this suggests to me a degree of something along the lines of mind control, mind manipulation, Makes the person lose control of their self-awareness and also their common sense factors where it's like everything goes out the window and they just invite these people or these things in and then they get threatened.
It's almost like the person's in a haze throughout the entire experience and then when they've left they start to come out of it as if someone's coming out almost like an anaesthetic.
Why did I let them in?
Why did I listen to what they had to say?
This is why I'm so concerned about what Dr. Jacobs is saying, because what possible, what possible defense do we have against creatures who can control our minds, our thoughts?
Not much, Nick.
No, you're right.
I mean, again, most of the reports I have of when the men in black enter people's homes, if not all of them, Um, the first thing that's weird is that, you know, as I said, they turn up usually at night, ten, nine, ten, eleven o'clock onwards when it's pitch black.
Um, the person hears a knock at the door, and even if they look through the spy hole, if they've got one, and they see these entities there, they still open the door and let them in.
And what's weird is that the men in black rarely ever come in until they're ever invited in, and that kind of fits in with the old vampire parallels.
That's what I was going to say, yeah.
Yeah, and they kind of look like pale-faced vampires, so I do wonder if... Well, you know what, you know what, Nick?
Maybe when you look through that little peephole at them, instead of seeing three little five-foot guys, Dressed eerily, they see instead either a friendly neighbor or perhaps a relative.
And of course then they open the door and just say, come on in.
Well, that's not impossible.
And you know, all this makes me wonder if a lot of ancient stories of vampires may have been very, very early reports of men in black type entities.
But when they enter the home, as I said, they often ask the most bizarre questions and don't seem conversant with our mannerisms properly.
They don't seem to know how to handle knives and forks or cups and, you know, liquid and things like this.
They kind of just stare at it as if they're not really sure.
What they should do with it, even.
And so it all gets very strange, and as I said, there's no doubt there's a degree of mind control involved with this entire phenomenon.
That's why I think they're so elusive, because... You know, Nick, you just said something that, again, parallels exactly what Dr. Jacobs was saying.
He was saying that many times These creatures that he described, these mixes, are unable to do the simplest things and have to be taught that they can sit back.
I think he used the expression of sitting in a couch and they had to actually be instructed that they could lean back because there was a backing to the couch.
And that's very close to what you're describing now.
Oh, it is.
I mean, there are a lot of reports.
There was actually a famous case where a man in black was given Some jello and couldn't figure out how to eat the jello.
He tried to do it with his fingers and I mean it sounds bizarre but when you find as I've got I mean literally well now hundreds of reports from all across the world where you know people clearly don't know each other but there are certain little bits of data which fit in like you know them acting strange not understanding something that would be so easy for us to understand And even, you know, the issue of the lack of any lines on their skin and could not really be sure if they're entirely human or not.
And, you know, just there's so many interesting parallels like that, where you can clearly place these things here, there and everywhere.
And that is the scary thing.
I mean, I've investigated cases from the US, from Puerto Rico, from Canada, from the UK, from Australia.
I've got a couple of Russian reports, and a few from Mexico, and a few from South America.
So, you know, that's pretty much two-thirds of the globe.
Has anybody ever recorded a man in black?
Nobody's ever audio-recorded one, but back in the 60s, a couple of researchers, Tim Beckley and Jim Mosley, actually photographed one.
Now, I actually include the photograph in my Second book on the Man in Black, which was called The Real Man in Black, and that one includes the photo.
And there is this guy, he's got like a long black trench coat, black fedora, black sunglasses, and he's just staring oddly and outwardly.
He looks just sort of zombified, you know, in almost like a blank state.
And the reason why they took the photograph is because for several days, for like an hour every morning, he was stood outside the Jersey City home.
of a UFO researcher, or two researchers, Jack and Mary Robinson.
And Mary got frightened when Jack went to work one day and this character turned up
and Jim and Tim Beckley raced over and managed to get a photograph of him.
They literally drove past during rush hour when he was just standing in the recess of
this old building in the shadows, staring right at Jack and Mary's apartment window.
And, uh, if you see the picture, it does look really weird.
He kind of looks just totally emotionless and flat-lined almost.
And, uh, but, you know, this zombie, like a well-dressed zombie is the best way to describe him.
Nick, have you heard of any physical confrontations?
Oh, what do you mean?
Like, altercations, that kind of thing.
Like that, yes.
Yeah, there's a few, but not many.
And that's interesting, because if people are able to sort of break out of this mind control state, occasionally some of them have stood up and found themselves actually, you know, their mindset returning to normal, as if they'd broken a spell almost.
And they threatened the men in black to leave, or they threatened to call the police, etc.
And instead of, you know, responding with violence, the men in black quickly made their excuses and left, as if they didn't want a confrontation.
All right.
Hold it right there.
We're at a break point.
And we'll be back.
Nick Redburn and Men in Black.
That's what we're talking about.
It sounds eerily like the interview we did the other night.
This really is eerie.
I'm Art Bell.
Midnight in the desert.
raging in the night.
Riders on the storm.
Into this house we're born.
Into this world we're thrown.
Coming to you at the speed of light in the darkness.
This is Midnight in the Desert with Art Bell.
Now, here's Art.
Here I am.
Riders on the storm.
I hope we're not riders on the invasion.
I really do.
I'm beginning to wonder, frankly.
Nick Redfern is my guest.
We are discussing men in black.
And they sound eerily like the things that were described the other day.
Incredible.
Nick, welcome back.
We were talking about the possibility of there having been physical altercations.
Yeah, this is where it gets interesting because the men in black come across very menacing and threatening and intimidating but a lot of it is sort of very much psychological and it works as the Albert Bender case shows and as many cases show.
However, there have been a few occasions where the person has felt almost under some sort of hypnotic spell but they've been able to break out of it.
and their sort of common sense factors have come back to them and they tell the men in black
get out the house, I'm calling the police.
Now given their sort of menacing approach and the way they look,
you might imagine the MIB would sort of just put on the fear factor even worse.
But that doesn't happen.
Typically what does happen is that the MIB quickly find a way to leave the house as soon as possible.
They actually don't go in for physical confrontation.
They make their excuses and leave.
In other words, once they do not have control or realize they don't have control of you, they're out of there.
Yeah, and that is an interesting thing because it suggests to me the reason they place people in a mind-controlled state is because physically they're quite vulnerable because as I said, you know, they're sort of 5'5", 120 pounds, look sickly, you know, they don't look well.
Um, but while they have you rendered into an altered state, they're fully in control.
You break out of it.
They're the most vulnerable things in the room, you know, and I think that's an important factor to remember that they always ensure to find a way to be in control of the situation.
And if it breaks down, they quickly know enough that it's time to leave.
So I think, you know, those patterns are important as well.
Is there a link, Nick, between Men in Black and these reports I've been hearing of black-eyed children?
Yes, well, there actually is.
I mean, again, in the new book Men in Black, David Wetherly, who wrote the book Black-Eyed Children, David wrote a paper for me for the book discussing the parallels between the MIB and the black-eyed children.
There's some really interesting ones.
For example, I mean, the first thing is, of course, the clothing.
Now, the men in black wear black suits and black fedoras.
Well, the kids, they wear black hoodies, so the color of the clothing is the same, and they also wear something on their head to partly mask their face.
So the men in black fedoras, the black-eyed children, hoodies.
Most of the reports of the black-eyed children, they try and find ways to force their way into people's homes.
You know, can we use the telephone?
Can you give us some money or some food?
Things like that.
There's always some sort of way that the black-eyed children try to get in the house.
Typically, they look pale and also, which is the same with the men in black, and also they typically surface at night, which is also Uh, classic aspect of men in black encounters.
So, in other words, there are five or six extremely similar parallels between the MIB and the Black Eyed Children.
And again, I kind of speculate that the whole situation is based around mind control.
You know, find a way into the person's home and then when you're on their territory and you're sitting or standing right opposite them, then they can, you know, make the mind control angle Well, David makes, in this paper he wrote for me, he makes a lot of very good sense in terms of demonstrating that the men in black mystery and the black eyed children mystery are actually sort of two components of one bigger issue.
And of course this brings into other things that have surfaced in the last few years, sort of paranormal type things like the shadow people, the hat man, the grinning man.
Well, I've had a shadow person experience, which honestly scared the tar out of me, Nick.
kind of same uh... to come from sort of a sign uh...
body if you like uh...
you know that they all have been that deep similarities even though there are
you know some differences as well okay
well on adam uh... shadow person experience which which honestly
scared the car out of me uh... neck i'm i'm sorry but it really
it terrorized me uh...
Um, in my, in my ham shack, uh, at the main house about two, three weeks before the show, doing research for the show late at night.
And, uh, there was one, I looked to my right.
I saw, I guess something caught my eye.
I looked to the right and here was this, you know, now that you mention it, Probably not very tall at all.
About five feet tall.
A human body.
Not arms extended.
Arms would be down.
But you could tell it was a human-like or humanoid type body.
That's about as far as I can go.
You could actually see through it partially.
And I startled and I started to turn around and the damn thing was behind me and again I could see through it and then I'm at this point really freaked out and I turned to my left which is where the door would be to get the heck out of that room and there it was to my left It eventually just went kind of like that and it was gone.
But it was real.
I'm telling you, Nick, it was a real something.
I don't know what.
But are you saying there is a relationship between these sort of shadow people or whatever they are?
And and men in black.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, one of the interesting things that just stood out for me, what you just said, You know, you saw this shadow person when you were doing research for the show, etc.
Well, this actually ties in with this paper that Brad Steiger did for the book where Brad was looking into things and it was as if the men in black knew.
In other words, in the same way that he was doing research and they seemed to know and began threatening him and also via his friend, you know, you were looking into something and they seemed to know.
You know in the sense that they appeared or one appeared and I get that so much in Men in Black and Hat Man and Shadow People type reports where it's like when you when you kind of think of them they seem to have an awareness that people are thinking of them and they can lock on to the people who might if you like be looking for the answers and then you know they can target them with a potential threat but I mean, within the shadow people controversy, which again, I talk about in the book, there's this sort of subcategory known as the hat man, which looks like a shadow person in the sense that it's shadowy, but like the men in black, it's typically seen wearing an old style fedora, but often it's described as like a black silhouette rather than having sort of a substantial form.
You know, it's sort of a cross between a A physical entity in a spectre, if you like.
But the outline looks like a man in black.
Then there's another one which is often seen in a black suit and often a fedora as well, known as the Greening Man, where it has this sort of macabre green on its face, almost sort of static, unmoving, as if that's the only impression, the only sort of Face it has, and they're amongst the creepiest stories of the grinning man.
People have seen these things, you know, they'll wake up in the middle of the night unable to move, and there's this very often tall and thin, you know, actually the opposite, the men in black are quite small, but tall and thin, wearing a black suit, skinny black tie, black fedora, white face, but has this really malevolent grin on its face, just staring at the person.
You know, those reports, I mean, I know from the people I've spoken to and written about it, are probably amongst some of the most chilling ones.
Alright, well, would you put these, and I know it's tough to put a label on all these things, but number one, you seem to think they're related.
Number two would be the question, do you think it's in the field of the paranormal, or just Some weird government agency.
I mean, somewhere in that range, you must have a point of view.
Yeah, I mean, I would put them in a paranormal and push them down the paranormal pathway if you like.
Now of course it all depends on what we mean by paranormal, you know, I mean
we could place certainly some aspects of the UFO phenomenon have sort of paranormal overtones to them and certainly
Albert Bender's cases with you know setting up supernatural altars to open portals and
doorways and things like this and I've got some cases where people for
example have been visited by men in black but there was actually no UFO
component but they've been dabbling with Ouija boards. I've got a few other
cases where they experienced the men in black appeared and then after the men in black left
They experience violent poltergeist activity in the home.
So there's very weird stuff like that.
So for the most part, I don't dispute that government agencies might on occasion have sort of mimicked the weird men in black as a means to get information out of witnesses.
In other words, so it gets really complicated that there could be more than one category.
But for the most part, I think these MIB are something That is totally 100% unconnected to government at all.
And I go down the path of something that appears to display supernatural powers in terms of how it controls people, but which is clearly a physical thing, and which is trying its best to look as human as it can.
But very often doesn't do a very good job of doing it.
Well, Nick, they're certainly emulating the feds in one sense.
I mean, when feds come to see you, they are intimidating.
That's all there is to it.
I mean, generally, they wear dark clothes.
They've got the sunglasses.
I've had a number of encounters with them.
They're not exactly men in black, but they're not far off either.
So there's a kind of an intimidation in having two guys who look like this show up at your door?
Yeah, and I think, you know, you can make a good argument that a great deal of research might have gone into it on their part to find the most intimidating way to approach people.
And what better than turn up at midnight with a black fedora, black trench coat, you know, super white skin and sunglasses even.
In a group of three and just scare the living daylights out of people.
And it works.
You know, I think that motif, that imagery of sort of the fedora and the trench coat, it almost, it goes back to sort of, you know, sort of film noir type things and Humphrey Bogart gangster movies.
People have that image of sort of the chilling, menacing man in black, you know?
Well, it works.
It does.
It does.
And that's, that's our, you know, for us, that's the downside of it all is that, um, you know people find themselves in it really
dangerous situations i mean i've seen spoken to people who felt their lives
were sort of psychologically scarred
by these encounters i mean one of the reports i i included them to be in the new book
uh... which was someone who was told the story back in the nineteen thirties you know
very old guy net and he kept quiet about it for years
you know fearful of with i say too much are they gonna
come after me and of course on this story and i get so many like that where
somebody will say you know i'm sixty two now or whatever and this happened to me when i
was seventeen and i don't know what's coming next that they're gonna say
uh... why do you want to talk about it because the first visit was enough and i
never wanted to see him again so i stayed quiet for forty years
Well, again, you've had so many reports now, Nick, that I really have to ask, do you notice anything in the demographics?
Do you notice anything in the type of people that are contacted?
Do you notice any similarities or many similarities in the stories that people tell you, or what?
Well, actually, that's a good point because, yeah, there are certain things you can look for that you do see quite prevalent, you know, through a lot of these reports.
One, as I said, is the fact that most of them turn up at night, and I don't think that's coincidence.
You know, if you're trying to blend in and you're walking around the streets, the best way to do it is when it's more and more difficult to see you, which is obviously after the sun's gone down.
Now, in terms of the people who actually get the visit, This I think is one of the reasons why it's been so difficult to predict where and when they might turn up.
And that's specifically because it really is at random.
You know, if it was just UFO researchers, well, you know, we could...
All people look out for each other.
But I mean, I've gotten some reports where it's abductees that got visited or contactees.
But then again, I've got other cases where somebody just saw a light in the sky, you know, which could have been it was no more spectacular than a satellite.
But they happen to tell the local newspaper, you know, it appeared in the newspaper and then they get the visit.
But there was nothing substantial or sensational about the report at all.
I've got other cases where, for example, as i mentioned you know there was the wager board uh...
connection and that's totally you know totally separate to the
paper claimed ufo encounters so in other words it's even i have to grudgingly admit
it's been incredibly difficult to try and predict where and when they might turn up because
their activity is so bizarre and as random as uh... as the reports are in
terms of you know where they occur when and why but uh...
what i can say is that for the most part the people who get the visit
have had some sort of profound ufo encounter and
it's typically being where
i guess it The person had more of like a close encounter possibly with entities or you know they've seen something land and you know it hasn't just been a light in the sky or even just you know a disc in the sky it's been something more intriguing and but you know these reports surface everywhere I mean literally you know the length and breadth of the entire planet and so we're clearly seeing a program ongoing
And, you know, the other big issue, of course, is the mode by which they ask the questions.
You know, it's all very skillfully played out.
All right.
If I might, how often in the reports, Nick, is it vocal versus some sort of telepathic method?
Well, that's a good question.
I'll tell you why, because the men in black often do ask questions, but they're often asked in a very stilted, cautious way.
One witness actually described it, the speech, as something along the lines of a person who might have a bad stutter and who has to really concentrate to, you know, overcome the stutter, so they speak slowly and deliberately.
And a lot of people have said something along those lines.
Now, what's really weird is that I've probably got nine or ten cases where The witnesses, none of them knew each other, but they said something which was almost identical.
And they felt that the men in black, when they're asking the questions, that they were saying the words in almost like parrot fashion, in the sense that they didn't understand what they were saying, but they were just programmed to say, you know, or ask certain questions.
You imagine, for example, you know, if you heard a 20 second recording of somebody speaking in Russian, if you played that over and You know, more and more times, you could actually repeat exactly what they were saying, but you wouldn't have any understanding of it.
You would just be, you know, you would just be listening to it and then repeating it eventually when you'd got it.
And that's what a lot of people have said.
As I said, I've got like, you know, more than a handful of reports where people said they didn't actually think the men in black, for whatever reason, they didn't feel the men in black actually understood what they were saying.
It was almost as if they were sort of, Biological robots programmed to perform a specific task and go out there and, you know, interview other people or silence them.
One or two people have described it as almost like the Matrix movies, where in the Matrix films, you know, you have these men in black that actually aren't real.
They're sort of like a simulation inserted into the program to ensure that the secrets of the Matrix, you know, we don't find out we're all living in this weird dream world.
Some of the witnesses have said things along those lines, that they felt that the event was almost like holographic, as if it was staged for them, rather than like a physical thing.
You know, it was almost as if they were in a trance and the men in black were, you know, that the program inserted onto the hard drive, so to speak.
Well, it is to me, here comes that word again, but it is terrifying for me to imagine not Having the ability to act on my own thoughts, or for that matter, to have my own thoughts, to have something intervene, and create thoughts in my own mind that I would then act on, that's really terrifying.
I mean, that's control, right?
Well, yeah, I mean, that is the worst part of these events, is that, you know, I'm sure most of the audience listening now would think, well, if they came knocking on my door right in the middle of this show, there's no way I'm going to let them in.
And that's what everybody says, but everybody does let them in.
And as I said, there have been cases where people have broken the spell.
And I actually think the term spell is actually a quite apt one and relevant one.
You know, they feel the spell's broken.
Then everything goes against the men in black.
But as I said, they're askew enough to know that it's time to leave.
So, I think a lot of the mind control is done, because physically, the men in black are quite vulnerable, you know, and they clearly wouldn't win any boxing matches, put it that way.
But they don't need to, because they have far more powerful skills, which essentially plunge us into a state of, like an altered consciousness state.
Nick, have you been contacted?
You know, I've never had that sort of knock on the door from the men in black, but what I will tell you, now this gets really weird, is that I've had a lot of strange telephone experiences, and particularly since the new books come out, and I swear this is not some sort of odd alternative marketing ploy, it's really not, but both myself and my agent and publisher, Lisa Hagen, We've had a bunch of weird sort of synchronicity type things go on in relation to the Men in Black.
I mean, I'll give you one classic example of actually quite a few.
I was in my office about two months ago and I heard a bang coming from one of the other rooms.
I thought, what was that?
I could tell it was coming from the bedroom.
So I went into the bedroom and I actually got a framed painting.
of the covers of one of my earlier Men in Black books, and it had fallen off the wall,
and the glass had shattered.
Now I've got like eight paintings on that particular wall.
And I swear that's true.
This one picture of the men in black fell off the wall.
Glass was everywhere.
And it actually happened right when I was opening the word documents of the book to put the final edit to it before it went off to Lisa to be published.
And that was that was just bizarre.
I found that when I'm writing and even talking about the men in black, It's as if they kind of know.
I know that sounds strange and bizarre, but it's almost as if you look into them, that they have almost like a radar, and these things seem to know when you're looking for them.
You know, you pop up on their radar, so to speak.
That sounds like somebody's on their way to see you right now.
That's how good our audio is.
I do live in Dallas.
The police are always racing around at this time of night.
Sure.
Men in black, I guess, have been known to affect telephone communication and, as you pointed out earlier, even poltergeist activity, right?
Yeah I mean again it's interesting you bring that up because again in the new book I've got a section from a woman named Claudia Cunningham who's had a lot of run-ins with MIB types but one of the things that Claudia talks about in the paper that she submitted for the book was that the tremendous amount of weird telephone interference she's had whenever she gets involved with the men in black and this has ranged from hearing weird electronic noises, bleeps on the phone, to
actually outright threats from anonymous sources. And again, they often have weird tones in their
voices and they just don't sound normal.
And so for that reason, telephone interference has become a staple part of the Men in Black
mystery and to the point where, you know, we, I won't say we have as many people who've had telephone experiences as
have had visitations, but you know, I would say for every five or six reports I get of just the Men in Black reports,
there's probably one or two where the people have said, They had other things going on, like telephone interference, or in a couple of cases, like I said, where furniture would suddenly slide across the room, that kind of thing.
You know, so he gets into what starts off like an X-Files thing, like I said, actually turns into something really, really weird and, you know, almost supernatural-based.
Wow.
Alright, so they also apparently always drive Old 50s, 60s vintage cars, except perhaps back in the beginning with Albert Bender.
Yeah, that's right.
You know, the interesting thing about the men in black is that you would imagine for the most part that they would want to, you know, go under the radar, you know, stay out of people's minds and eyes, but everything about them Does the opposite.
It stands out, you know, and is memorable.
Everything from the fedora hat and the black suit and the skinny black tie, which obviously wouldn't have looked out of place in the forties, fifties and sixties, probably even the early seventies.
But today people would look twice, but that hasn't stopped the men in black dressing like that.
And you're right.
They, they drive for the most part, sort of old gangster era Cadillacs cars like that, you know?
And, um, But again, what's weird is I've got a few reports where people have said that they came out of this sort of weird stupor and rushed to the window and saw the Man in Black going down the drive.
And both the Man in Black and the car just sort of faded away into nothing, as if it never, as if it was never really there.
And these are the people who felt that, or actually wondered with hindsight, if the event had been sort of almost holographic, as if some sort of alien entity had taken control of their mind and rendered them into a state where
they were almost like a waking dream. You know, the men in black was a real
phenomenon to them and the threat was real, but it was almost like a
holographic dream rather than a physical thing and they... Well, if they suddenly
snap out of it, as it were, Nick, and they go to the window and they see the car
leaving, an older car leaving,
that would indicate to me that they were, you know, completely under the
influence of these MIBs and then suddenly that influence waned as the vehicle took off.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's quite close, William.
Okay, alright, hold it right there.
I'm Mark Bell, this is Midnight in the Desert.
Saturday night, I have to see my face.
I'm down there with my boy, yeah, yeah It's seven o'clock and I'm...
Wearing white as you're walking Down the street of the cold
To initiate a dialogue sequence with Art Bell, please coordinate your Phalanges and call
1952-225-5278.
That's 1952.
Call Art.
Well, okay, we're about to open the phone lines, everybody, so why don't you join us?
I'm sure you have questions about Men in Black.
Oh I know I do.
I'm noticing similarities between what Nick is saying and what was said the other night by Dr. Jacobs, and I'm sure you are as well.
Creepy stuff.
I mean, this really is creepy stuff.
Not human?
Maybe not.
Part human?
Possibly.
And, you know, anyway, let me get the numbers out.
If you want to call us, if you have a question, the public number is 1-952-225-5278.
Once again, 1-952-225-5278.
We are available on Skype as well.
It's easy.
225-5278. Once again, 1 and then 952-225-5278. We are available on Skype as well. It's easy.
In North America, Canada, the U.S., MITD51. MITD51.
If you're calling from outside the U.S., we do have a Skype connection just for you.
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Nick, is there any suggestion that these could be time travelers?
I mean, they are using old vehicles, 50s and 60s cars.
Well, that's actually one of the interesting theories that, you know, within the UFO field, there is this sort of subculture that takes the view that, what if it's time travelers, not extraterrestrials?
I mean, there are some interesting things when it comes to that theory.
One being, of course, excuse me, the obviously out of date clothing and the cars.
You know, they're trying to fit in, not realizing perhaps if they're from the distant future, hypothetically, of course, how quickly our fashions change.
And so you would imagine if that story was true, or that scenario was true, that they would have realized at least by now that they're not fitting in very well.
But, I mean, there are some interesting cases.
John Keel, for example, who wrote The Mothman Prophecies, as well as a number of a lot of good books, he noted that in many 1960s era men in black cases, the men in black would ask the witnesses what the time was.
And they thought, you know, they were asking, well, is it 6.30?
Is it 7.45?
And Keel wondered if they were literally asking, what time is it?
you know, as in what era, what year, that kind of thing.
And so you do have a few strange stories like that where you could push it down, you know,
a time travel pathway.
And of course, this is all dependent on whether or not time travel is actually feasible, but you know,
the whole scenario, I mean, you can actually make a case for it.
You know, that's one of the interesting things that why fascinate you because there are so many different
facets of theories, you know, in relation to the men in black.
All right, let's go to the phone and overseas, you're on the air, Charles.
Hello, this is Charlie in Thailand.
Hi there.
This is Charlie in Thailand, the place where ordinary people believe a lot of extraordinary things, as a matter
of course.
Very pleasant place to live for that reason.
I've never seen men in black, but it occurs to me that if there is an alien force that wishes to try to shape human
life, one of the ways to gain entry would be with simulated
humans that would appear much less frightening in black suits.
So maybe that would be a way to affect human behavior directly, but without causing a whole huge amount of Little green men being seen.
Yeah, that's actually a good point, Charlie.
I mean, if you look at, for example, you know, sci-fi movies, typically, if when an invasion occurs, it's sort of Independence Day style with, you know, with craft in the skies or war of the world or the day the earth stood still.
In many respects, you know, to really have a successful invasion, That's the way to do it, would be to really do it slowly, carefully and subtly to where we don't even know until it's a case of game over and there's no need for huge 200 foot, 300 foot wide craft hovering over every city.
You know, it could actually be something that we don't realize is going on, you know, under our very eyes, so to speak, because it is so unrecognizable to most people because they're not seeing it for what is actually happening.
I have a question for the guest.
It occurs to me that the idea that everybody who sees a UFO is crazy and all of that kind of nonsense, it seems to me it's time for everyone just to say, okay, space aliens are real, let's stop denigrating people and celebrate them for being honest.
My question is, do you think the seeming Increase in the number of UFO type TV shows and movies you think that's an act?
conscious act of preparing human beings Well, I know for sure that there have been rumors over the years of sort of You know government agencies subtly suggesting to filmmakers and production companies that hey, you know, why don't you do this and I Yeah, there are actually more than a few.
We do know also, for example, in the 1950s when the CIA created the Robertson Panel to look into the UFO issue, one of the things that they recommended was using the Disney Corporation to create cartoons to Alright, let's go to Cynthia.
I have no idea where you are but welcome.
Hi, I'm in Wisconsin.
I'm sorry?
you know informing them uh... but you know i think it's not bored to uh...
to to assist the the government programs so that that sort of thing is not a
question at all all right let's go to
uh... cynthia i have no idea where you are but welcome i have a good time
i'm sorry i'm in a stand-in
go ahead Bye!
That's it.
Well, I find this rather interesting because a few days ago when you were talking about the aliens, I didn't make a connection, but several years ago I had really a series of dreams about aliens, and there was one that particularly stood out in my mind where Well, that's a new one.
some aliens were going to take my kids and I started Chiefs in you know all kinds of fearsome creatures and it
scared them and they went away Well, that's a new one. I think that some of these
experiences Nick occur to people when they are in or near the sleep
state And more suggestible, I would think
Yeah, I mean there actually are a number of sort of the weird of men in black cases where?
I actually do think there's a good chance that they can almost invade the the dream state
You know, they can literally manipulate people's dreams and that might sound far out to a lot of people.
But on the other hand, you know, there are more than a few reports like that where somebody, you know, goes to bed and they wake up in the middle of the night and they see
this weird shadow type person or the hat man in the bedroom but it gets worse than that,
that they actually feel that these entities can intrude upon and actually manipulate the
nature of what they're actually dreaming so in other words you can get a strange visitation
in a physical sense but also these things could possibly visit us malevolently while we're
sleeping and actually have the same effect on us, this sort of chilling threat.
But it's not done physically, it's done by literally getting into your mind while you're sleeping.
Okay.
Here comes a question from Heather who wants to know, is it crazy to ask if the black-eyed children just might grow up to be the men in black?
Well, you know, I've heard that more than a few times.
And as I said in the new book, David Weatherly, who wrote the book, Black Eyed Children, has done an entire paper on this very issue of the parallels.
And, you know, whether they are the child equivalents of, you know, the men in black, I don't know.
But I mean, what I can say is that if, excuse me, if they are, everything about them makes sense.
As I said earlier, with like, you know, the hats, The men in black have the black jackets and the black hats.
The kids have the black hoodie, which obviously has a hat component to it as well.
The skin color, you know, the coming out late at night, needing to find a way into the home.
It's almost like both of them, the men in black and the black eyed children, are working to a set program.
And I mean, you know, there's also the thing, are they actually really children?
You know, this gets into sort of creepy areas.
What if they're sort of biologically altered?
Matthew, you're on the air.
Hello?
That's a lot of noise you've got there.
tall what if they're actually not children we think of them as children
because they're small you know but what if they're actually skillfully altered
extraterrestrials you know that are designed to look like human children
that that would be even sort of more disturbing whole thing is disturbing
Matthew you're on the air hello that's a lot of noise you got there hello
Matthew I guess that's all we get is noise We'll try the phone.
Hello there, you're on the air with Nick Redfern.
Hello, is this me?
That's you.
Hey, how's it going?
I just wanted to ask, Nick, are you aware of any cases of the men in black physically assaulting anyone or anything like that?
Right, I asked that earlier, but, uh, sure.
Yeah, as far as I know, I personally don't have any cases where they've been physically assaulted, but, you know, they sort of infer sometimes that a person might end up dead or, you know, they should be very, very careful about what they say to who, et cetera, et cetera.
But often it's, you know, that threat is enough to where they don't need to actually, you know, resort to physical I mean, look, as I said, looking at the size of them and the build of them, physically they're not really up to taking us on.
And I think that's why they rely on the mind control, because that keeps them in control of the whole situation, which physically they could not do.
So I think, you know, that's interesting that we don't actually really see what we might expect.
You know, we might expect, oh, men in black, so they're going to Well, if they can control us with their minds, then the biggest linebacker is stopped cold.
and really bad for us, but physically they don't do that.
They just rely on sort of inference and threats and things like that.
Well, if they can control us with their minds, then the biggest linebacker is stopped cold.
I mean, they don't need physical force.
No.
Okay, caller?
Yeah, thanks.
Okay, have a nice day.
I mean, have a nice night.
Right, you have a nice night, too.
That part of it really bothers me, that they can control our thoughts, and it sounds so eerily similar.
Have you thought of sitting down with Dr. Jacobs and comparing notes, the two of you?
Well, it would be a good idea.
I mean, there's no doubt that, you know, this is sort of an area that, I won't say it's completely sort of, you know, not unstudied.
It isn't.
You know, I think it's a matter of putting all the threads together.
I mean, like with the black eye children angle and the men in black, that sort of perfect analogy that we've got these two phenomena that in many respects are extremely similar and yet most people treat them as different and unconnected.
And I think that's the danger in a lot of the men in black Um, cases is not seeing the bigger picture.
You know, people often view these events as random one-off encounters rather than looking at the bigger picture of how many have occurred, where they've occurred, what's the nature of them, you know, what was going on in the person's life.
And I think these are all important factors that, um, that come into play.
And, and, you know, and it might, we might see a lot more parallels between the MIB and the Black Eye Children.
The more we look into it and, you know, I think this, from our perspective, the more we know, you know, it's to our benefit whether we're going to like what we know or not.
That's a good point.
Another question.
James sends me a computer message through what we call the wormhole.
He asks, I believe these men in black are demons spreading fear for Satan.
This kind of statement was inevitable.
And I, you know, I can't rule it out.
The one that came to you was to show you, to scare you, meaning me, and to make you talk more about them so the fear spreads.
Well, interesting thought, Nick.
Well, yeah, I mean, there are actually some people who do, you know, adhere to the idea that the UFO phenomenon is demonic.
I mean, one of them is a guy named Ray Beauchesne, who I interviewed about the Men in Black and the UFO phenomenon a few years ago.
Ray has an interesting background.
He's an Anglican priest, and he's also a former state director of MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network.
He lives in Nebraska.
and array came around to the idea that uh... you know the phenomenon is sort of
more demonic than it is extraterrestrial
uh... or literally demonic rather than extraterrestrial and uh... you know there are a lot of people who actually
do believe that theory
I think, from my perspective, I think we're seeing a phenomenon that, you know, it could be extraterrestrial, but it also has the ability to interact with what we might call the supernatural, even if we're not really sure what the world of the supernatural is.
You know, in terms of actually being able to control our minds, this whole issue of people invoking them, like Albert Bender did, and sort of opening portals, that has far more of a paranormal aspect to it.
But maybe it's something that can be explained one day by science.
And so in that sense, I think it's possible that the sort of the world of what people call demons and science may one day sort of cross paths.
And you know, things like the djinn that people talk about, which is sort of like the Middle
Eastern version of our demon, not that much different.
You know, some people like Rosemary Allen Guiley, who wrote several good, who's written
several good books on the djinn, has pointed out that even though they're placed in a paranormal
category, that you can actually also demonstrate that, you know, they could well be distorted
of entities that live in other realms.
I don't know what it was.
that could be explained by science. So I think, you know, we could see sort of
emerging one day of paranormal phenomena and science if we could understand how
the two come together. Well, I am not blind to the fact that, for example, when
I saw what I saw, which I, you know, I call a shadow person, I don't know what
it was, I was doing research for this program. You know, somebody reminded me of
That's what I was doing at that moment.
Research for this program, which means I was thinking about things of this sort.
And I just wonder if I didn't invite whatever it was on in.
Well, you may have well done.
I mean, people get quite disturbed when I've actually pointed this out to people a lot of times.
I mean, to paraphrase actually from the movie version of John Keel's The Mothman Prophecies, there's a character in there that's based on Keel.
His name's Alexander Leake, and Leake is Keel backwards.
And he actually, and I'm quoting him exactly here, somebody asks him, one of the characters asks him, you know, what's going on?
And he said, well, when you notice these things, they noticed that you noticed them.
And that sort of gets to the heart of it, the idea that when we think about these things, it's as if they know we're thinking about them.
And then they start taking an interest in manipulating us.
And I have so many cases like that, where it's almost as if we create reality as we go along.
In the sense that when we think about these things, it starts to happen to us.
Yes, or, you know, thinking about it, I was doing research on the paranormal, and maybe that's like an invitation to come through the door, I don't know.
Outside the country, Magus, is it?
Yes, hello.
Where are you?
In Romania.
Romania, okay.
I was just wondering, I know that a lot of people think about the Men in Black as the cigarette smoking man from the X-Files.
You know, the guys behind all the conspiracies.
Yes, yes.
But is it possible that they're the Mulder and Scully part of the show?
You know, the guys that just investigate things that the government doesn't want to make official.
Well, yeah, I mean, as I said, I think most of the men in black reports are sort of have really weird origins, but there is a small percentage where I think the government, not necessarily the government, but maybe some sort of shadow agency has used the mystery of these really weird men in black to cover their own tracks.
And so, in other words, some of these agency personnel may well have mimicked the legends, you know, that have been associated with the weirder ones.
So in that sense, You know, there could be real government MIB, but actually based on the weirder ones.
All right, we've got a break here, Maggis.
Thank you very much for the call.
And next stand-by, we'll be right back.
practices at night in the desert.
The desert is a place of peace and tranquility.
The desert is a place of peace and tranquility.
As long as I'm a ghost, you can't see me Want to take a ride from the high desert and the great
American southwest?
This is Midnight in the Desert, exclusively on the Dark Matter Digital Network.
To call the show, dial 1-952-CALL-ART.
That's 1-952-225-5278.
If you could read my mind, such a romantic song, really, right?
Really, if you could read my mind, I wouldn't like it at all.
And, you know, that's what we're talking about here.
Things or beings are part humans that can read our minds, or and or control our minds, and possibility of an actual invasion.
There's no getting away from it.
If you heard what Dr. Jacob said, and you're listening carefully to what Nick said, You can mix and match, and frankly, you can come up with something pretty serious.
Peter, you're on the air with my guest.
Welcome.
G'day Art, and g'day Nick.
Can you hear me well?
I hear you just fine.
Okay, I just want to put me to sensing about what the Men in Black might be, and I'm thinking, I don't know if this is true or not, but it's just a speculation.
What I think it might be is that when we get tired, our brain runs low on something that's called neurotransmitters, which is something that enables us to actually think.
And I think the body generates an apparition of some sort, whether it be a men in black or dark-eyed children, in order to scare us.
And so what the scaring does is enables adrenaline to be released, which also is a neurotransmitter.
And so the brain can continue to function.
So the whole idea of them not wanting us to talk about UFOs doesn't seem to work anyway.
But something that's in common with all the cases is the fear factor.
So that's it.
That's the idea.
Now that's actually interesting.
I mean, there are some cases where You know, I mean, I don't honestly, personally think it's all totally internal, but you know, I do think when you, you know, you talk about, um, you know, the brain can create this and create that.
Um, I, you know, I don't dispute that.
I think sort of some cases of sleep paralysis could fall into, definitely fall into that category.
But I do wonder if like with the men in black, uh, some of the men in black cases and granted, you know, this requires like a bit of a leap of faith.
If, Something external can actually invade the dream state.
Now, of course, you know, that requires us to try and find evidence for that.
But I do believe, you know, that the human mind, you know, can do weird things.
You know, there's no doubt about that.
I mean, but I do sometimes wonder if even in the dream state, if, you know, if something can be present and manipulated, you know, Yeah.
Well, I'm not sure.
It's good we have that debate, you know, to look at it from both angles.
I mean, we need that because we're dealing with sort of definitive unknowns.
So we need, you know, the down-to-earth approach and we need the other angle to try and bounce them off each other to see where it all leads, you know, so that's actually good.
Yeah, well, I've had a few paranormal experiences, but some of these things, one of the things I've noticed is that the distinct lack of detail in the entities, if you like, and also the fact that they don't seem to hang around too long, which sort of seems to be limited by something.
And it could be if they're generated by the brain, Maybe all the brain can do is to generate this illusion.
Well, you know, we don't think they hang around long, but if they have control of our minds, I'm not sure we know.
Oh, I see.
Yes.
Yeah, we really don't have a good idea of time, do we, if they've got control of our minds?
Right.
It's kind of like waking up and looking at the clock.
Then you know what time it is, right?
Otherwise, it could have been five minutes ago.
Okay, yep.
I understand.
All right, where are you?
Um, in Australia.
In Australia?
Okay.
Yep.
All right.
I was looking up the other day about the disappearing watch off me.
Oh, yes.
That's Peter from Bendigo.
All right, Peter.
Thank you, and take care.
Thanks, Peter.
Let's go to the phone.
Foley, Alabama, I suspect.
Hello.
Yeah, well, I'm actually calling from the Gulf Coast here in Gulf Shores, Alabama.
My name is Rex.
Hi, Art, Nick.
I remember back in the early seventies reading The Silencers by John Kill.
In one of the cases he was talking about, in Western Virginia in 1942, an object had gone down in the woods to the north, and the sheriff got together with a reporter and a posse, and they went out through all of this long hiking, and they found a clearing, a large clearing, and in the clearing was what appeared to be like the fuselage of an aircraft of that time, without any wings, tail propellant, no windows, anything like that, and standing near The wreckage of this object were five human type people and two of them were dressed in some kind of jumpsuit maybe the pilots or whatever but the other three were dressed in business suit type apparel and they went on to talk about how that you know their shoes
of these people were like always brand-new like they had just left the haberdashers and you know their clothes seemed to not fit quite right and they were you know awkward one of them was offered a cigar he tried to eat it and then the jello incident the guy tried to drink it and that's this is way back in the 70s okay when I read this book and I was very interested in it and I wonder if you you know recollect these encounters you know there was a couple of other incidents on a mountain where They had arranged to meet with this guy that was researching UFOs and had some incriminating photographs or something like that and they wanted to meet with him up on this hill or mountain or whatever and it was a winding road and they seemed to drive vehicles that seemed to be the make and model of several different type of older vehicles like you were describing and when they got up on the road
They noticed one of those vehicles like that with two figure silhouettes in the front and they kept winding around and then it came to a dead end and the vehicle had just mysteriously vanished.
And so he thought he was being, you know, the victim of, uh, they were trying to intimidate him or something like that.
But it's a very real thing going way back to the forties.
And, uh, that's right.
And, uh, I mean, kale chronicle, like a lot of those, Many black reports and he was sort of astute enough to realize that it wasn't just a modern day phenomenon.
He sort of looked back into history and folklore and found a lot of, you know, centuries old stories that push the barriers back even further where he felt that, you know, like I said, with some of the old vampire stories and legends he felt could have been born out of things like many black encounters three, 400 years ago.
I actually have a few, not so much in direct connection with Men in Black reports, but I've got a few stories of people claiming to have seen people in business suits coming out of UFOs, and you know, very strange stories.
But again, we're sort of seeing the development of a pattern, and Kiel recognised that, you know, and he recognised it was sort of an age-old phenomenon, he didn't feel it was brand new.
You know, I mean, it's interesting that, you know, we're sort of seeing these parallels and pushing the barriers back as to when the men in black really sort of began, so to speak.
All right, Nick, here's another computer message through the wormhole.
Ralph asks, are all men in black or have there been any women?
That might explain the black eyed children.
Well funnily enough, believe it or not, early next year I've got a new book coming out called Women in Black and it's actually like a full length study of the women in black.
The book is pretty much all finished now, I've got about another 10,000 words to do
and that's it.
I've actually got an incredible amount of reports of women in black and they're actually
not as exciting as they sound like they should be in the sense that they actually come across
just like the men in black.
They're very pale, typically wear a woman's black business suit, very emotionless.
Then they have this really tight skin, looks like they've just overdone it with Botox.
But they also turn up in UFO incidents.
And what's interesting is that whereas the men in black, you know, just present themselves as they are, very often the women in black present themselves as, for example, census takers, or, you know, they're doing a survey in the area and can they come in and ask a few questions?
So in other words, the women in black, what the big difference is, they often have a cover story.
But they're very much like the men in black, where their voices sometimes sound stilted.
There have been a lot of reports of women in black where they look quite like the aliens, like the greys.
And they've been seen wearing long wigs, like a woman's wig, sort of down to her shoulders and beyond.
And again, sunglasses and sometimes a beret or something like that on their head.
So again, they're clearly trying to camouflage themselves, but the women in black mystery is sort of a really under-appreciated one, and that's why I wanted to do this book, because there are so many fascinating stories that fall into that category.
All right, let's go to the phone.
Hi, you're on the air.
Hello?
It's me?
It's you.
Yes.
Yes, indeed.
Yeah, this is Ken from New Hampshire.
Yes, sir.
Question is for Nick.
What is the most common thing that will draw the men in black to a person?
Is it more of something they saw or a specific sensitive topic they don't like you talking about to multiple people?
Is there one thing that sticks out more than anything else?
Well, for the most part, when it comes to these weirder men in black, it's when they've had an encounter, like an abduction or a contact case, or they've been in the wrong place at the wrong time and they've seen a UFO land.
Those are the ones who seem to get visited more by the weirder men in black.
But I do have more than a few reports where Guys in black suits, which I think are actually sort of government people, have visited the homes of people when perhaps they've
You know they've been hiking in the desert or something like that and they've come across you know a fence that says keep out that sort of thing and or they you know they may have seen something like a classified aircraft being test flown and they've been visited but it's clearly by a different sort of you know category of MIB as I said most of them are of the weirder types and that the people typically at those visits are when they've
had a UFO encounter that's a fairly significant one but there are some reports which i
think are more down to earth not as many you know and it's just somebody from an agency coming along
and saying hey you know about that thing you saw in the sky don't talk about it but but there
are also kind of crossovers between some of these stories as well uh okay thanks
Alright, thank you very much.
And let's go to, I'm not sure who, whoever's next.
You're on.
Hello?
Hello.
Yeah, nice to have you back on the air, Art.
Thank you.
I just read one of Nick's books last week about the bad black smire factum.
I tried to call in when David was on because since I was a kid I've experienced a full spectrum of UFO and paranormal stuff.
It's led me to do my own personal research over the years.
Something you said earlier about maybe they appear as friends, family, that sort of thing.
I started having these experiences back in the late 80s, early 90s.
It actually led me to learn to lucid dream because I was having waking experiences like shadow people.
In the blackness.
I know you hear some people say they hear whispering and murmuring and voices they can't quite make out.
Things of that nature.
I started dreaming about these hooded cow beings and it was not like a normal dream.
It's almost like a battle of wills.
It led me to personally believe the vampire parallels were there.
A lot of times it would appear as family We're friends and it was like the black eyed children where they would try to get you to let them in or let them close to you.
It's almost like there's a hypnotic suggestion there and if you didn't succumb to it, if for some reason it didn't work, they became belligerent, angry, the facade would start to slip and they would start to change and their eyes would turn black and it was almost like their teeth became pointed and fang looking and they got more gaunt and violent looking.
And this led me to start doing some research, friends, family.
I found out some of them have been seeing the same things, drawing the same things, even seeing things in waking hours.
It kind of culminated in a waking experience with my brother where we were out one night past dark.
We were standing under a streetlight just kind of hanging out.
We hadn't gone inside yet.
I heard bootsteps coming down the sidewalk.
Man comes out from under this tree, and I knew there was a friend down the road that was having a party.
I thought at first maybe it was somebody coming from that.
As he got closer, he started coming across the lot towards us.
I started to get frightened at this point.
I didn't know why.
It didn't really make any sense.
I'd done my own research.
I'd went out looking for things before.
There wasn't a lot that really scared me in that regard.
But as he got closer, it got worse.
And I couldn't really understand what it was at first.
It didn't really register.
And as he walked under the streetlight towards us, it finally hit me that even though he was under the light, you couldn't see his face.
It was covered in shadow.
You couldn't see any of his face.
And he started running towards us and I just gave in to complete fear at that point and I pushed my brother and I told him to run.
And he chased us a full block, and of course, he runs in, he slams the door in my face.
I had to try to get the door open, and as I looked back, he was reaching for my shoulder.
And I got the door open, I slammed it behind me, and I turned and looked through the blinds, and there was nothing there.
And I went back outside.
We lived on a corner of a main highway and crossroad.
I looked all around.
There was nobody to be seen anywhere.
And to this day, that was probably one of the most frightening experiences I've ever had.
And then shortly thereafter, in the late 90s, you started seeing these stories of the black-eyed kids coming out on the Internet and people seeing them in waking hours.
And I wondered if Nick had ever run across any sort of similar reports to that.
Okay.
Well, yeah.
Experiences where you have experiences in the real world and then you start having dreams and you feel that something invaded the dream and they're trying to pull the wool over your eyes, so to speak.
I've got a lot of stories like that.
These phenomena, whatever they are, I don't think they're just able to manifest physically, I literally do think they can get into
the dream state.
What gets dangerous for us is that they can take on the guise of various different things
and if we fall for it then it just gets worse and the camouflage that they are using becomes
more and more acceptable to us.
It's interesting that you talk about how you managed to just get back as he put his arm
out to grab you and you shut the door.
That is sort of symbolic in terms of when the men in black wait to be invited in.
You slam the door and it was gone.
In other words you had taken away its power.
It needed you to allow it to enter through the door and when you broke free of the spell
so to speak and slammed the door in its face you essentially took its control away or you
It took away the fear because you became the one controlling the situation.
I think that's their vulnerability, is when they realize that their ruse has been rumbled, so to speak.
That's the important thing to try and do, is to, if you're suspicious of what they are, what they seem to be, try and focus and look through them and see if there is a ruse, if there's something else going on.
And that often is something that makes them back away because, you know, without that image that they use to project their strength, you know, they've got nothing other than that.
And if you see through it, physically they're not able to really, you know, they're no match for us.
Apparently.
Marion, somewhere in the world, where are you?
Bucharest, Romania.
Sorry for my voice.
That's right.
That was not you earlier.
You're a different Romanian caller.
Is that right?
Absolutely.
Two Romanian calls in one night.
That's a record.
Go ahead, sir.
We are very passionate about paranormal.
I guess that's the reason.
The thing is, I was just considering this so-called invasion.
As not necessarily being a bad thing.
I mean, look at this perspective.
Yes.
Along the history, since ancient times, there's been lots of invasions which have formed new nations.
What we have today is a result of countless invasions along the history.
So, I don't know.
But, Marian, it depends on their intentions.
If their intentions are good, Well, maybe.
I still don't like losing control of my own mind, but maybe.
I admit, we're a mess.
You're suggesting their intentions are good.
Could be.
We have no way of knowing that, but there may be a next evolutionary step in our development.
Nick, any comment on that?
Well, yeah.
I mean, I think it's always You know, we need to be very, very careful when, you know, some other force or country or whatever promises, you know, we're going to do this and we'll help you with this, etc, etc.
It's very often usually a self-serving approach, even if we don't necessarily see it.
And I'm always suspicious of entities like these that don't openly show themselves, that sort of work in the shadows and Sort of worm their way into society and you know and I think infiltration is a good term to use and I think when we use that term infiltration I find it difficult to see the sort of anything positive about an infiltration you know to me it's max of like I said a self-serving agenda which you know involves us but certainly not from I don't think it's from the perspective of
I do.
I do agree, Nick.
Marion, do you have any evidence to suggest it's positive?
I don't think that we'll be welcoming them if they come at our doorstep and say, you know, I'm willing to take over and share my mental activities with your own.
I don't think we will say, yes, you're welcome, come in.
No, we won't do that.
We are water-like race.
Well, Marian, unless they have control of your mind, and then you'll say, come on in.
Thank you very much for the call.
Let's go to Roseburg, Oregon.
Hello.
Hey, how are you guys doing tonight?
Very well, thank you.
Hey, I was always wondering if there's any kind of report of men in black being contacted by law enforcement or anything, or what would happen there?
Oh, good question.
Yeah, that is a good question.
There's actually kind of an answer.
Through the Freedom Information Act, both the FBI and the Air Force have released files showing that back in the 50s and 60s, both the Air Force and the FBI received reports of MLIB from members of the US public.
You know, people writing letters to J. Edgar Hoover and the Air Force saying, you know, I've been visited by this guy and threatened me and I want some action taken.
And the FBI and the Air Force both looked into this to a degree for a while together.
and you can actually read the memos where you know people saying well is this
the government and then you've got the FBI and the Air Force saying to each other
who on earth are the men in black we need to try and find out
so in other words what this tells us is that law enforcement clearly in the 50s and 60s knew about the
um MIB phenomenon because the files have surfaced through the Freedom
Information Act But the big irony is when so many people in ufology were thinking the Man in Black were from the government, the government internally was saying
Well, who are they?
You know, it's like the exact opposite thing we would expect.
We would think they would have the answers, or it was them.
But that's not the case at all.
They were actually more baffled, law enforcement was more baffled by the entire MIB phenomenon in the 50s and 60s than the UFO research community was.
They were, you know, because they didn't really necessarily understand the complexities of how it sort of tumbled over into UFOs and the paranormal.
They were just looking for guys who were using fake identities to get into people's homes, you know, to commit a criminal act or whatever.
Well, you know, yeah, nowadays, you know, with like, all this, you know, identification theft and stuff, you know, I was thinking that there would be some kind of protocol for, you know, law enforcement contacting people like that, contacting entities like that, you know, Well, that's actually interesting what you bring up.
I mean, if there was a way to figure it out, you know, if we could somehow, you know, access databases, you know, if the relevant agencies release files, we might actually see far more reports that fall into the, you know, the MIB category than we realize.
You know, you might get a report where somebody Contacted their local police department, said this weird, creepy guy came round, and then the police visited them, and the police said, well, you know, he didn't steal anything, you know, there's no proof he's been, and they just closed the case down.
If we had access to those, we might find, well, that sounds just like a man in black, but the police, you know, dismissed it because there was no evidence, and the case didn't go any further, you know.
Wow.
Okay.
Let's see.
I think we can get one in.
You're on the air with Nick.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
My name is Dean.
Hi, Gene.
Hi, Nick.
I'm a very tangible person, and Art, thank you for having this show.
This is one of the more interesting ones.
Nick, I didn't meet you, but I saw you this end of May down in the desert and was there for three days.
And I'd like to, on the panel, what I wanted you to address was two things here.
I'm a pretty tangible person.
I've been interested in UFO phenomenon, and not as much as paranormal, but as a nuts and bolts, you know, a physical reality.
And the last four or five years, especially when Art came back on the air on satellite, and then with some of the programs that are coming out now on digital, I've gotten much more involved.
And I guess with the men in black, What I'm curious about, I have not myself seen a UFO that I know of or seen anything strange, but I lived through people like you and people that I met at the contact, who I believe, you know, Travis Walton and such, that really these things have happened to them on a physical level.
My question is, now that I'm running my mouth so much, in the last couple of years, listening to programs, talking to people about it, I've had people approach me With their experiences, people that, like even at work, you would never think would talk about it, but because I breach the fact that I listen to Art Bell and other programs, they open up to me.
So my question is two things about how you have been over 30 years, if you've ever been threatened and all that, and you've talked to some of that, but I wanted to, more specifically, the second part, wonder if you think that the government or law and agency, at least here in the United States, is trying to
uh... to work in cahoots with this because since i've been involved with
all this stuff i received
uh... strange phone calls uh... for marketing late at night when you don't usually
get them i've also received a survey
from the government in the mail recently that was kept bugging me about all it's part of the census
you gotta fill it out and
blah blah blah and i'm wondering if that's a way to harass people like me that run their mouth and
and talk to people everywhere i go well that's a good question because i actually have got a
lot of accounts from people who have been sort of threatened and you know this
this whole like i mentioned earlier the women in black turning up declaring
to be census takers and that kind of thing
uh...
When the sort of what seems to be a government component to some of these cases, my personal view is, where I differ to a lot of UFO researchers, I actually don't think, you know, the Air Force or the government or whoever are the bad guys in this at all.
What I actually think is that the real deep and dark secrets that are hidden by some agency of officialdom I actually think we're dealing with sort of these so-called black budget agencies or rogue agencies that operate outside of, you know, the confines of official government, you know, that Congress isn't even aware of them, they get their budgets through, you know, alternative means.
In other words, you know, it's like a secret government within the real government and I think That this sort of, this really weird stuff that goes on, I think is done, you know, by some sort of, like a shadow agency, rather than by, you know, like I said, the government itself.
I kind of think that if marketing calls are part of the overall strategy, then I'm absolutely doomed.
Because I just, all the time, Marketing this, marketing that.
So I'm not sure that would be an indicator of anything, except that your phone number is on a bunch of lists.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell with Midnight in the Desert.
From the kingdom of Nigh, in the high desert, I'm Art Bell with Midnight in the Desert.
From the kingdom of Nigh, in the high desert, this is Midnight in the Desert with Art Bell.
Please ring Hartzbell at 1952-225-5278.
That's 1952.
Call Hartz.
Alright, welcome back everybody.
Nick Redfern is here, and we're talking about MIB's Men in Black.
A lot of what he said resonates back to what Dr. Jacobs said the other night.
It really is kind of eerie, frankly.
I want to do something, uh, just for fun.
I have more phone lines than you even know I have.
For example, I think I'm going to open up a first-time caller line right now.
Just for fun.
Here it is.
You ready?
If you're a first-time caller to the show, call me at area code 775-285-5800.
Pretty cool, huh?
Didn't even know I had it.
Once again, first-time callers only at area code 775-285-5800.
The reason I'm doing that is because, number one, you didn't know I had another line, which I do, and number two, I found that it's really kind of nice to give people who have never called the show a way to do so.
And while, generally, Having one public line is, you know, just fine, because they roll over.
So I have many, many lines at that one number.
It's very difficult for a first-time caller to get through.
So there's a number.
You've got it.
And you might write it down.
So if one day you decide to be a first-time caller, you can be.
Area code 775-285-5800.
775-285-5800. Nick, welcome back. Thanks, Scott.
We already have an apparent first-time caller.
First-time caller line, you're on the air.
Hello.
This is weird tonight, mate.
Is it now?
Oh, yeah.
It's quite different.
Where are you calling from, sir?
Australia.
Okay.
Anyway, you're on the air with Nick.
Okay, Nick.
Hi.
You have a lot of stories you're telling, but I'm just curious Are these men in black, I mean, the reports you get, are they really real?
What do they wear?
What do they look like?
There must be more to these stories with what they have, where they come from.
Alright, well I've had, thank you very much for the call, very similar questions coming through on the computer, Nick, that, you know, these are just stories that you've heard, you're not relating first person stuff, and they're just stories.
What do you say?
Well, no.
I mean, for the new book, there's like 30 chapters.
Everybody, apart from two cases, is named under their real names, with their websites or Facebook pages listed.
Are people reluctant to allow that?
No, most, I mean, with the new book, I think there are only two people who didn't want their names used.
Other than that, you know, I never use anonymous sources unless, you know, the person specifically asks for it.
But, you know, for people to say that they're just stories, you know, they're not because, I mean, Anybody can pick up the new book and see, for example, I mentioned Claudia Cunningham, the woman who had the telephone interference.
I understand that.
I understand people's concerns.
but i think some cases they even allowed me to look at use their websites and
blogs so they're not anonymous paper anything like that i i never did it
alright understand i'm just telling you that people do
on our show i don't know i understand that i mean i understand people's
concerns that's you know you i always try and get people to speak on the record and i think that's an important
thing i think sometimes
the problem we have with the many black history is people are so frightened by
these experiences but that can make them reluctant to speak out publicly.
And I do totally understand that, but I always try, you know, where possible to encourage people to go public.
If they want and if they don't, obviously, you know, I don't push them.
That's, you know, I'm not in the business of forcing people at all.
All right.
All right.
Understood.
Look, first time, Caroline, again, you're on the air with Nick Redfern.
Hi.
Yes, hello.
Yeah, your episode with Jim Keith from the 90s?
Yes.
That's one of my favorite coast-to-coast, and he talked about the Men in Black.
Do you think the Men in Black had something to do with him passing away?
How can I answer that?
I don't know.
That's the very best I can do.
I'm sorry, I don't know.
All right, well, thanks a lot.
You're very welcome, and take care.
No way I can know that.
You're on the air with Nick Redfern.
Hi.
Hi, guys.
Great show.
Thank you.
I just was curious, if these things have to have permission to, or seemingly have to have permission to access our homes, why is it that they do not need to have permission to access our minds?
Good question.
That is a good question.
I mean, I'll be honest with you, I don't honestly know the answer to that question because you would imagine that, you know, if they take control of the person's mind when they're in the house, why are they not able to do it when they're at the front door?
That's right.
You know, why is it they have to have that invite?
You know, I wish I could offer an answer because, you know, it doesn't make sense.
I mean, I'll be the first to admit that, you know, you'd imagine if they have that Mind power, they could use it anywhere.
When you're in the car, in bed, watching TV or cutting the grass outside.
That is what people say.
What's kind of weird, I probably didn't go into that too deeply, but what usually happens is that when the person opens the door, the men in black don't even say, can we come in?
It's like they patiently stand there and then the person feels compelled to invite them in.
One of the things I do wonder is if possibly the mind control is somehow derived from eye contact.
Now that's to say that the reason you know they...
they're not able to force the person to open the door from the outside, you know,
Okay.
while they're outside, I should say, is because to a degree, at least,
they need to make eye contact with the person.
And then when the door is opened, then they feel, you know, the person,
that they have the ability then to sort of take over the person's mind.
They're not able to do it from outside the door, so to speak.
Okay. All right, caller.
Yeah. Right. You're very welcome.
Thank you.
It is.
Is this our panel?
Art, what a pleasure.
I've been listening to you for years.
You've always been the king of late-night talk radio and new venues of mine.
I am truly honored.
Thank you.
I'll pose the question.
I was in Cheyenne Mountain, nowhere near this command, probably in the early 80s.
Really?
The magnitude of sophisticated technology beyond most people's comprehension that I saw at that time.
And what truly fascinates me is how we can see these observations that seem to be increasing every day around the world, and yet not have the discussion with our government.
I am staggered by the sense of denial of this connection.
And perhaps you can.
And by the way, one more thing, if I might, and I'll get off here.
You need to contact Andrea Rossi.
We think he may have discovered some low-energy nuclear reaction that's going to breach sometime around March of this coming year.
But look, I'll get off of here.
This is my... Art, I've been listening to you, God, I don't know how long.
Thank you so much for what you've done.
Oh, you're very welcome, and take care.
Gee, looks like the first time caller line may be working out.
That's amazing.
All right, let's go to Skype and Flippy.
Hi.
Hello?
Hello?
Yes, can you hear me okay?
I hear you, yes.
Turn your device off, please.
It's off.
He just hung up.
Sorry to hear that.
Silverdale, I think it is, Washington.
Hello?
Hi.
Hello?
Hi.
Hi, Art.
Yes.
Hi.
I'm so glad to talk to you.
I talked to you years ago, and I love your program.
I'm so happy it's back.
I wanted to ask two things.
I wanted to ask if there's a reference or any reports of how dogs, particularly, or cats act to these And also, years ago I heard something about Howard Hughes, that he became terrified of something like this and it caused him to become such a recluse.
Yeah, actually that's an interesting question.
I'm not personally aware of any responses from cats, but I do know that dogs have responded Um, either with sort of terror or quite violently towards men in black.
There's a couple of cases where, you know, they sort of very aggressively barked as if the, the dogs were sort of not under the control of the men in black when the door was opened.
And there are other cases, and there's also a famous black eyed children case where, um, the dogs acted in a very frightened fashion and just when the door was open and they saw them, they just charged under the bed, you know, and just wouldn't come out.
So animals definitely have a reaction to the Man in Black, there's no doubt about that at all, and to the Black Eyed Children.
Now, what was the other part of the question?
Howard Hughes, I had heard years ago that Howard Hughes became a recluse because of confrontations with what he thought was aliens, and possibly, I was wondering if you'd heard anything like this?
I haven't actually heard that one, but what I can tell you is that Howard Hughes was good friends with one of the early famous contactees of the 1950s, a man named George Van Tassel.
He built something called the Integratron out at Landers, California.
Van Tassel and Howard Hughes were good friends.
And so he clearly was fully aware of the UFO phenomenon, but I hadn't personally heard that, you know, that thing that made him become reclusive.
Oh, thank you so much.
All right.
Well, thank you for the call and take care.
Let's go to Manitoba.
Hello.
Hi, Art.
Can you hear me OK?
I do.
Good.
This is Sharon calling from Brandon, Manitoba.
Yes.
And I am calling.
By the way, this is, I think, a very important show.
Very good show.
Thank you.
And I was in agreement with you when you said this was kind of eerily similar to Dr. Jacob's account.
So close.
Yes.
So close.
And I agree.
It's insidious.
It's sneaky.
It's cowardly, and I'm thinking for whatever entities they are to behave like this, there must be a weakness.
Sharon, I also think very successful.
You know, aside from the fact that we might be on to it, it's just the most successful way I can even imagine to take something over slowly but surely and do so with minimal violence or anything else.
It just works.
Yes, and I will also say that Nick gives me hope, and this is what made me very curious, and this is what was kind of gnawing at me when Dr. Jacobs was on your show, was there must be a way to beat this thing, because I know that when I'm afraid, or if I'm fearful, at times I will get angry.
Now, stupidly, I may get angry, but do these people who were able to shake out of this Nick, of this mind control, or whatever it is, They have, and the human spirit or a human being can break it.
What causes them to break this?
Because obviously these entities are not infallible, they're not omnipotent, there is a weakness to them.
Yes.
Now that's actually a good question.
For the most part, when people have actually been able to break out of this sort of mind-controlled or mind-manipulated state they're in, It's generally due to a surge of anger and fear combined, that whole scenario of fight or flight, do you run or do you stand and fight.
It is very often the case that the person is so terrified, very often people are terrified And they fall into this state where they're completely controlled.
But when it's terror mixed with anger that, you know, something has forced its way into their home and they're fearful for their family and they get angry, etc, etc, then it's like the anger can break the spell.
Or it may just be it's like a high state of emotion that sort of creates a glitch.
You know, that's a possibility as well.
It may not just be due to anger.
It could just be that they want us in a really calm state.
You know, so we're non-threatening, and anything that's sort of suddenly different, threatening or anger or, you know, et cetera, et cetera, that may be sort of the glitch that they're unable to control, perhaps.
All right.
Well, we're getting woefully short on time.
So thank you for your call, Hunt.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Art.
Right.
Take care.
Again, to the first-time caller line.
Uh-huh.
How about that?
You're on the air.
Good evening.
Good evening.
Where are you?
I'm in Bloomington, Illinois.
Okay, well welcome.
Nick Redfern's right here.
An honor to talk to you guys.
I was wondering, have children had any contact with the Men in Black, and what was the response to that?
Yeah, there actually are a few cases like that.
Most of the ones that I've got where children have been involved, it involves sort of more of the shadow people type ones.
One known as the Hat Man, which looks like a shadowy silhouette wearing an old style fedora.
And I've got probably I would say somewhere in the region of 20 cases from adults but who had experiences with that type of like the silhouetted MIB when they were children sort of back in the 50s and 60s.
I've got a few cases From people in their late teens and twenties who had experiences like this when they were five or six.
But they weren't sort of with, you know, the case, they were, you know, at home on their own when the parents are out or something, they knocked on the door.
It was always, it's sort of like the weird dreamlike state where the hat man, shadow person sort of manifested in the bedroom.
So all the children ones, the ones I've got at least, fall into that category.
Thank you so much.
You're very welcome, and thank you for the first time call, too.
Take care.
And very quickly, Bob, on Skype, you've got about a minute.
I very much enjoyed the Dr. David Jacobs show.
Anybody who perpetuates the Black Eyed Children is currently an urban myth, and anybody who perpetuates that is losing credibility.
Why do you think?
Well, why do you?
Good night.
Yeah, good night.
You hear that?
Yeah, well I mean the reason, I wouldn't say it's a case of perpetuating it.
What it is, it's a case of the fact that people speaking on the record come to us and tell us their experiences.
Right.
So we investigate them and then we share them because that's the right thing to do if they're happy about doing it.
So nobody's perpetuating anything for the sake of it.
You know, we wouldn't be, people wouldn't be writing about the Black Eyed Children.
If the word witness is out there, credible... And there are.
I've heard them, Nick.
I've heard the people call in and talk about them, so I know it is so.
I've had emails about them.
People see these things, so that part of it is not a myth.
Now, maybe people are somehow perpetuating something.
I don't know, but I shadow people, and all the rest of it, this is real stuff.
It really is happening.
This is really weird, genuine stuff that's very serious, very sinister, and there's some sort of agenda going on which we need to resolve quickly.
Nick, all my lines are full.
I've got to go.
I'm sorry.
I wish I could take more calls for you.
What would you recommend to people?
Your book?
Your website?
What do you want to do?
Um, well, people are interested.
My new book, which has just come out last week, called Men in Black, and if people can find me at my blog, which is Nick Redford's World of Whatever, if they type that in, they'll find the blog quite easily.
Nick Redford's World of Whatever?
Correct.
In the new books called Men in Black.
All right.
Nick, thank you for being here.
I'm sure we'll do it again sometime.
Take care, my friend.
Thanks a lot, Art.
See you later.
Good night.
He's qualified to talk about so many things that I'm sure we will do it again.
I'm Art Bell.
I want to warn you tomorrow night we're going to be talking about something really serious and unfortunately increasingly possible, and that is global thermonuclear warfare.
So be warned, that's a rough, rough topic.
But that's, you know, some of what we do here.
From the high desert, good night all.
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