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June 30, 2007 - Art Bell
02:37:02
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Roswell Crash - Tom Carey
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Time Text
And the great American Southwest.
I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's time zones.
Prolific as they are in each and every one, covered like a blanket by this program, the largest of its kind in the world, Coast to Coast AM.
I'm Art Bell.
It's my honor and privilege to be escorting you through the weekend.
And in a moment, A couple of moments, to be honest.
We're going to talk about Roswell.
As you know, it's the 60th anniversary of Roswell.
My guest tonight is going to be talking about Roswell.
And here in the first hour, we're going to be talking about Roswell for a really good reason.
Breaking news!
First though, let us look at what's going on in the world.
Never all that pleasant.
A Jeep Cherokee, I'm sure you've seen this if you watch the news, how could you miss it, trailing a cascade of flames rammed into Glasgow's airport terminal on Saturday, shattering glass doors just yards from passengers at the check-in counters.
Police said they believe the attack was linked to two car bombings, two car bombs rather, found in London the previous day.
Britain raised its terror alert to critical.
That would be the highest possible level.
And the Bush administration announced plans to increase security at airports and on mass transit.
Now, there is a lot of speculation that this may be al-Qaeda.
That they are linked in that it has all the signatures of al-Qaeda and all the rest of it.
Well, if that's true, not to belittle the tragedy of the attack, But, seems like kind of a step down for Al Qaeda.
I mean, this is one vehicle that rammed into the airport.
And I think a guy poured some gasoline on himself and set himself on fire.
Horrible, of course.
But, somehow or another, in scale, not a whole lot.
The car bomb scare in London and the attack Saturday at the Glasgow Airport underscore the need for secure borders for the U.S.
according to one of our Republican presidential hopefuls, Rudy Giuliani.
Quoting here, this is the United Kingdom, he said.
They have security that is every bit equal to ours.
They have intelligence services that even have had more experience with terrorism than ours.
He said, you know, they have to be subjected to this.
We're in an era in which we need to know everyone who's in the United States.
Makes sense.
Hong Kong's red flag was raised, now I don't know who wrote this, But it says, Hong Kong's red flag was raised into a cloudy blue sky Sunday.
A cloudy blue sky as the former British colony marked the 10th anniversary of its handover to China and bid farewell to a rocky decade of financial woes, disease outbreaks, and of course, economic recovery.
The next 10 years could be just every bit as challenging for the buzzling city on China's southern coast.
Hong Kong will likely grapple with democratic reform and face growing competition from other Asian cities, threatening its position as a global business capital.
Mr. Harder, President, this is an analysis which concludes only the Iraqis can win the war.
The harder President Bush has pushed to win in Iraq, the closer he has come to losing.
The question is no longer whether the U.S.
military can fully stabilize Iraq.
It cannot.
Now they don't say in the story who did the analysis.
Returning residents who had evacuated their homes this week are keeping a very close watch tonight On the Brazos River, which officials expected to swell yet again on Sunday after opening another floodgate at a nearby lake.
The river expected to crest at about 26 feet, a foot, above flood stage.
That's a foot of water.
That's a lot.
Brazos River Authority officials opened a fourth floodgate at the Possum Kingdom Lake in North Texas on Saturday afternoon.
Alright, in a moment, It's a very serious flooding.
Very serious in Texas.
In a moment, we're going to look at some breaking news about Roswell.
What I'm about to read you comes from news.com.au, meaning from Australia.
News.com in Australia.
And this is a hell of a story.
Some of you may already have heard this.
The news has been kind of around a little.
Exactly 60 years ago, A light aircraft was flying over the Cascade Mountains in Washington State at a height of around 3,000 meters.
Suddenly, a brilliant flash of light illuminated the aircraft.
Visibility was good as pilot Kenneth Arnold scanned the sky to find the source of the light.
He saw a group of nine shiny metallic objects flying in formation.
He estimated their speed as being around 2,600 kilometers per hour, nearly three times faster than the top speed of any kind of jet at the time.
Soon, similar reports began coming in from all over America.
This wasn't just the world's first UFO sighting.
It was the birth of a phenomena, one that still exercises an extraordinary fascination.
Military officials issued a press release which began, quote, The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality yesterday when the intelligence officer of the 509th Bomb Group of the 8th Air Force, Roswell Army Airfield, was fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc.
The headlines screamed, Flying Disc Captured by Air Force.
Yet, just 24 hours later, The military changed their story.
They claimed the object they'd first seen was a flying disc was actually a weather balloon that had crashed on a nearby ranch.
The key witness, Major Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer who had gone to the ranch to recover the wreckage, he described the metal as being wafer-thin but incredibly tough.
It was as light as balsa wood but couldn't be cut and couldn't be burned.
These, and similar accounts of the isn't it, have largely been dismissed by all except the most dedicated believers.
Now, a truly astonishing new twist.
Last week, a new twist to Roswell.
Lieutenant Walter Hout.
was the public relations officer at the base in nineteen forty seven and was a man who issued the original and subsequent press releases after the crash on the orders of the base commander then, Colonel William Blanchard he he, Hout, died last year but he left a sworn affidavit to be opened only after his death last week The text was released and asserts that the weather balloon claim was a cover story and that the real object had been recovered by the military and stored in a hangar.
He describes seeing not just the craft, but alien bodies.
He wasn't the first Roswell witness to talk about alien bodies.
Local undertaker Glenn Dennis had long claimed he was contacted by authorities at Roswell shortly after the crash and asked to provide a number of child-sized coffins.
When he arrived at the base, he was apparently told by a nurse, who later disappeared, that a UFO had indeed crashed, and that small humanoid extraterrestrials had been recovered.
But how is only one of the original participants the only one to claim to have seen alien bodies?
Now listen carefully.
Houtt's affidavit talks about a high-level meeting he attended with Base Commander Colonel William Blanchard and the Commander of the 8th Army Air Force, General Roger Ramey.
Houtt states that at this meeting, pieces of wreckage were handed around for participants to touch, with nobody able to identify the kind of material.
He says the press release was issued because local officials were already aware of the crash site, but in fact there had been a second crash site where more debris from the craft had fallen.
The plan was that an announcement acknowledging the first site, which had been discovered by a farmer, would divert attention from the second and more important location.
Howard also spoke about a clean-up operation where, for months afterwards, military personnel scoured both crash sites, searching for all remaining pieces of debris, removing them, and erasing all signs that anything unusual had occurred.
This ties in with claims made by locals that debris collected as souvenirs was seized by the military.
Hout then tells how Colonel Blanchard took him to Building 84, one of the hangars at Roswell, and showed him the craft itself.
He describes a metallic egg-shaped object around 3.6 meters to 4.5 meters in length and around 1.8 meters wide.
He said he saw no windows, no wings, no tail, landing gear, or any other feature.
He also saw the alien bodies.
He saw two bodies on the floor, partially covered by some sort of blanket, I guess.
They're described in a statement as about 1.2 meters tall, with disproportionately large heads.
where at the end of the affidavit, Hout concludes, I'm convinced that what I personally observed was some kind
of craft and its crew from outer space.
What's particularly interesting about Walter Hout is that in the many interviews he gave before his death,
he played down his role and he made no such claims.
He'd been speaking publicly.
Had he been speaking publicly, he surely would have spoken about the craft and the bodies.
Did he fear ridicule?
Or was the affidavit a sort of deathbed confession from someone who had been a part of a cover-up But who had stayed loyal to the very end.
The U.S.
government came under huge pressure on Roswell in the 90s.
In July of 94, in response to an inquiry from the GAO, General Accounting Office, the office of the Secretary of the Air Force published a report.
Remember?
The Roswell report?
Fact versus fiction in the New Mexico desert.
The report concluded that the Roswell incident had been attributable to something called Project Mogul, a top-secret project using high-altitude balloons to carry sensor equipment into the upper atmosphere, listening for evidence of Soviet nuclear testing.
These statements concerning a crashed weather balloon had been for a cover story, they admitted, but not to hide the truth about extraterrestrials.
A second U.S.
Air Force report concluded, uh, and claimed that bodies were recovered by, uh, were actually generated by people having seen crash test dummies that were dropped from the balloons.
Remember that?
Skeptics, of course, will dismiss the testimony left by Houtt, but I don't.
Houtt, during the time he was alive, never admitted any of this.
But in a sealed document only to be opened upon his death, which has now occurred, everything important that we've heard about Roswell and has come from other sources has now been confirmed by what amounts to a deathbed confession.
Not exactly that, but a document to be opened on his death In which he virtually confirms everything that everybody's sort of dug for and feels like they've confirmed.
Now, the legal system gives more weight, a very great deal of weight, to a deathbed confession.
People just don't lie when they're dying.
That's all there is to it.
And the legal system actually recognizes that fact.
And I do too.
Why would he, for all his life, deny this?
However, construct a document only to be opened when he died, in his latter age, written when he was older, that would admit that all of this is absolutely true.
I believe it.
And I wonder if you do.
All these years, we've all heard things about Roswell.
Virtually what he admits in this document.
But it's been so easy to... Well, not easy to dismiss.
But I think this is as close as you're going to get to a smoking gun in the Roswell case.
And I wonder if you also believe that.
Do you believe this man would have written this to be opened only on his death?
A man who saw a extraterrestrial craft, a man who saw alien bodies.
Do you believe he would have written this?
I believe it.
And I would like your opinion.
How much weight And by the way, our guest tonight, Tom Carey, in the next hour, is going to be talking about this.
The news broke just as Tom Carey was getting ready to release his book.
But tonight, early, just, I don't know, an hour, two hours, three hours before the program, along comes this news.com.au story, dated, by the way, July 1st.
That lays it all out.
And I called Tom, and I said, my God, Tom, did you know about this?
He said, do you have my book?
I said, no.
He said, it is the last chapter.
In other words, it broke just as they were getting ready to release the book, and they just had enough time to get it in as the last chapter.
So he'll have a lot to say about this tonight.
But in the meantime, I really thought I would ask you, all of you, whether you believe now Whether this, I don't know, cinches it for you or not, it does for me.
Whatever doubts I may have had are pretty much gone now.
I just don't think a man in that position in his latter years would construct such a document not to be taken advantage of while he was alive.
Now, he could have written books, he could have appeared on television, he could have made a fortune Telling his story, but he didn't.
In fact, he didn't allow the story, he denied it, didn't allow the story to be told until he was dead.
I believe him.
That means we have been visited from elsewhere.
So I want to know what you think.
Anyway, here are the numbers if you're west of the Rockies, 800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 800-825-5033.
618-8255, east of the Rockies, 800-825-5033.
First time callers, area code 818-501-4721.
If you're calling on the wildcard lines, and we have many, area code 818-501-4109.
And finally, outside the country, you're welcome.
Get hold of the international operator.
Tell her you want to call 800-893-0903.
That's 800-893-0903.
West of the Rockies, hello there.
You're on the air.
That's 800-893-0903.
West of the Rockies, hello there.
You're on the air.
Hello.
Oh, I actually got you.
Wow, that was amazing.
Yes.
So, I just wanted to call you, Art, and tell you I've listened to you for a long time.
I think you're absolutely amazing.
Thank you.
So, about the Roswell thing, though.
Yeah, do you believe this?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty amazing that it all came out now.
I've always believed in it, and I just kind of had an intuition about it, but I think it's a great thing.
I believe it.
I just don't, you know, if somebody wanted to tell a wild, what would seem like a wild story like this, they'd tell it while they were alive.
If they wanted to make something out of it, you know, they'd go on interview shows, they'd sell the story to God knows who, and they'd make money.
But that isn't what the man did.
He wrote it all down and said, this is not to be opened until I'm dead.
Yeah, exactly.
When you said that, it kind of reminded me of my grandfather.
He worked at the Pentagon for a long time, back in the 60s.
He wrote a journal, and my mom still has it, and he told her not to touch it until 10 years after he died.
So we haven't even still got a chance to look at it, but I'm wondering, you know, there might be something like this, and there's something pretty amazing.
Because, I mean, if you were to tell it when you were alive, you'd be trying to get all the fame, the glory, the money.
Sure.
All that, but at the very end, to say it at the very end, I think that makes it totally different.
Well, that means, if you believe it, and I certainly believe it, we have been visited.
That's it.
We have been visited.
And it probably means we're currently being visited.
Yeah, I definitely think so.
You can't be a little bit pregnant, you know?
There's either life out there, or there's not.
To me, this means there is, and they've been here.
Right, but what do you think, Art?
I've listened to you for a long time, and I've heard you.
Talked to a lot of different people about a lot of different facets of this, like the quickening, everything that's going on with the environment, plus this, you know, the war.
I mean, where do you think this is all going, Art?
Really, your honest opinion.
Honestly, I don't know.
That is my honest opinion.
The quickening is certainly speeding up.
The environment is certainly deteriorating faster than projected, even by some of the more dismal models that are out there.
Uh, and these two things, visitations and the state of the world, may not even be connected.
But now, I believe it.
We'll be right back.
By the way, if you'd like to go up to coast2coastam.com, that's coast, T-O, coast, A-M, dot com, the upper left-hand side, you'll see Art's webcam, and you'll see, uh, what I think is kind of a cute picture of Asia and Dolly.
Dolly is our little Philippine immigrant.
And she just loves Asia.
She absolutely loves Asia.
If Asia's crying, Dolly will come running.
It's absolutely amazing.
In fact, all the cats have been absolutely wonderful with Asia.
Just wonderful.
It is a very cute picture.
No two ways about it.
Upper left-hand corner of the website where it says Arts Webcam.
This Roswell thing, with what I've read you tonight, I think qualifies What does it qualify as?
The biggest story in human history?
Something along those lines?
Easily.
To me, it means it really happened.
We really have been visited.
I wonder where they were from.
And I wonder what we've done with them.
We'll be right back.
This may be as close as any of us will get in our lifetimes to the truth about Roswell.
Lieutenant Walter Haut was the PR guy.
At the base, in 1947, is the guy who actually issued the original and subsequent press releases after the crash on the orders of the base commander, Colonel William Blanchard.
And in this sworn affidavit, only to be opened after his death, he saw it all.
The craft, the bodies, Admitted to cover up the whole thing.
And as I said, I believe him.
I believe this.
He took an oath.
And he kept it.
But it doesn't survive his death.
And so I believe it.
And I bet a lot of you do too, judging from the fast blast that I'm getting right now.
Isn't this something?
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Hello.
How you doing, Art?
My name is Ralph, and I'm calling from Southern Illinois.
Hi, Ralph.
And I believe it, too.
Yeah.
I also wanted to tell you a wild and strange story that happened to me just a little over 20 years ago down here in Southern Illinois.
I was out with some friends camping one night, and one of the guys with us, he always kind of dabbled in and kind of joked around with the dark side, and we never really believed him much.
So we had a fire going in an old creek bed down near the Shawnee National Forest.
The guy starts incanting some stuff or whatever you call it, you know, saying some things.
And he was holding a stick in the middle of the fire and all of a sudden the flames started jumping up.
And we all got a little nervous at that point, you know, and at that at that time I was always, you know, everything I heard, it's like, well, you got to prove it to me kind of thing.
Well, he did this for quite a while, you know, and He'd say certain things, and the flame would change different colors, and it would jump higher and higher.
Well, one of the other guys in our group, he got a little scared, and finally we stopped everything and decided, all right, we're going to go back over to our regular campsite.
Well, as we got ready to leave, we were going through the forest, and we heard something, turned around and looked, and I caught something out of the side of my eye, and it kind of looked like, kind of like a gray apparition of some sort.
And everybody else kind of stopped, but nobody said anything.
Well, the next day we were all talking about this and before I had even said what I had seen, two other guys said they saw the same thing.
It kind of looked like an old, possibly a Confederate soldier or something.
And that kind of got us a little nervous.
So we went back up to this old creek bed where we had the fire built.
It was on top of slabs of rock at the bottom of this, like I said, this old creek bed.
And where he had drawn this fire out and he had made a pentagram every single point in that pentagram was burned about an inch deep into the stone.
Really?
Now this is it gets a little weirder.
We're looking around and we all of a sudden we see these weird footprints coming out of what where the fire was heading kind of, I guess the direction would have been heading kind of Northwest.
And we see a series of them.
When we start walking along, there's like eight feet between each one.
The bottom half of this print was cloven.
The top half of it was almost in, uh, three prongs on top of a rectangle, almost like a crown.
So you set something horrible loose on the world.
Well, I didn't.
You were part of it.
You were part of it, sir.
I know, and I've always wondered about that.
Well, this guy that did this, within six months, he was actually, he was from around, I guess, around the Cleveland area.
He died of a mysterious death.
I myself, the night that happened, we had went up to go get some more supplies and things, and out of nowhere, I was about five feet away from everybody else in a well-lit parking lot.
It felt like something, like a linebacker just came behind me and shoved me.
And I flew probably about four or five feet.
Everybody's kind of looking at me, and a couple guys were looking right at me when it happened.
They couldn't believe what happened, and at first I thought one of them did it to me.
And I had a sprained ankle.
Weird things happened to this whole group over the next... No, it was probably your cloven-footed friend that shoved you.
Interesting.
This world is full of so many things that we just don't understand.
But now, perhaps, we do understand one of the things that actually did happen.
How big a story is this?
Does it get any bigger?
Short of the second coming?
I don't think so.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
Good morning.
Oh, good.
Is this Coast to Coast?
It is, yes.
Oh, right.
Good deal.
I have a story I'd like to tell on the air.
Is this George tonight?
No, this is not George.
I'm on the air right now?
You are, yes.
Oh, okay.
When I was 13 years old, approximately, me and two of my buddies, we were going down 28, there's a highway out in the country, and there was an old road.
Where?
What state?
I mean, where?
It was in Ohio, Milford, Ohio.
Okay.
It was a country town back then, and going across Oh, like an old gravel road.
It was about three miles long, went from 28 to 50.
Um, we'd ride our bikes, and there was a bunch of police cars there that had stopped, and we thought that there was a wreck, uh, down, um, down that road, Cook Road.
And, um, so they wouldn't let us down there.
They stopped us.
So we came back up, parked our bikes, we went through the woods.
And when we got through the woods, um, this was really bizarre.
It looked like, Something had landed and the trees were breaking down and breaking off and it was probably like a 50-60 yard round radius where it was, the grass was flat and it was burned and kind of twisted a little bit.
So something had landed?
Something had landed and then they seen us again and they grabbed us and this time there was police officers.
They, meaning the police?
Yeah, the police officers and some guys in some suits.
And they took us to the road and they threatened us if we ever came, if they came back and caught us again, they would take us to our parents.
But I've seen it.
I mean, I, we actually seen it.
These were some friends of mine.
What you saw was the area where it landed, right?
You didn't actually see the craft.
No, there was, that was the thing.
There was nothing there and they had the road blocked off.
So apparently what it had ever had crashed or had landed, It was gone.
It was gone.
There was nothing there.
I mean, I don't know what it was.
Whatever it was, it was at that point gone.
Well, there's a million stories in the night like that one.
And sightings.
But, rarely do we get anything as solid as Roswell.
And with tonight's news, in my mind, it locks it up.
And it may well, in a way, in a sense, it may verify a lot of these other stories, like the one you just heard.
And sightings of craft and things that don't belong on Earth.
It kind of underscores a lot of those, doesn't it?
I really do wonder where they came from.
I wonder who they are, and I wonder what they want with us.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Good morning.
How you doing?
I'm all right, sir.
I really love your show.
I just wanted to comment on the Roswell incident.
Please, yes.
I used to work with classified material with the Air Force and the Army, and this is something that I've never heard anybody question, but When they were confronted with the story that something had crashed and people had seen this, the Air Force, or I guess back then it would have been the Army, they never would have divulged a top secret operation such as Mogul to the general public, even as a diversion.
They would never release that information at all.
Well, it wasn't released then.
It was released much later.
Mogul was, you may recall, Mogul was the cover story that replaced the cover story of The Balloon.
Right, right, but didn't at the time they mention that there was a weather balloon?
Yeah, at the time, yes that's right, at the time it was, well they first said we've got a disk.
Flying saucer.
Then within 24 hours, it was a weather balloon.
And then years later, the ultimate insult came when they, do you remember that Air Force Thing where they showed us the dummies that were dropped.
Oh God, it was a mess.
It was just absolutely a laughable mess.
And that came with the mobile story.
You know, the cover-up that replaced the cover-up story.
I'm sorry, I believe what I read to you tonight.
I believe this man who kept his mouth shut All his life, and left the document to be opened only at his death.
I believe him.
Wildcard Line, you are on the air.
Hello.
Hey, Art.
Yes, sir.
Are we only quoting on the Roswell incident?
You have something to quote, or you mean talking about?
No, in reference to, yes.
Yeah, no, whatever you want.
Oh, great.
I wish you'd have a best-of night.
I don't know how the format would work on the radio, but You've had some really terrific shows.
The first one with Bonnie Crystal was fabulous.
You were originally going to speak to her about her caver explorations and discovered she was a great inventor and all this.
Oh, yes.
Well, they do run best of for, you know, streaming purposes.
Yeah, well, kind of like a recap, you've actually done a lot of You've done a great summary on quantum mechanics and relativity.
That big hype on the Ginger, you had a detective on there who worked, I think, for a current affair, and he was describing how all these millionaire investors were there, and you quickly went to, well, how did you get in here?
And he commented on how his friend always tries this and gets whisked in a limousine, but he was able, at the airport, to shake the president's hand.
And, yeah, there have been a lot of, thank you, there have been a lot of very good programs and they do, of course, a best of for streaming.
I suppose you could put together a show with, you know, which would encompass years and years and years of, a lot of it was breaking and very interesting news.
You could do that.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Yes, hi.
Art Bale?
Yes.
I just wanted to tell you that I'm very sorry for those nasty things I wrote to you, and I was under the influence of Yes, JC, and I was not thinking clearly.
Yes, well, JC, let's see, I spoke with him about a week ago and he was under the impression that very shortly you were going to be back at the compound with him.
I have to tell you that I've been a bit worried because I have heard that he was trying to track me down.
Oh, yes.
And I think I saw a friend of his in the town I'm staying.
But, you know, I just wanted to ask you also, it's an honor speaking with you, but would you accept my apology?
Well, of course I would.
Yes, you wrote some disturbing things to me, but I understand you were under the influence of J.C., of course.
Yes, and I have some good friends here in Woodstock, New York, who are looking out for me.
Um, I was wondering, um, that compound that you and George Norrie live at and pay rump, I was wondering if... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
George Norrie does not live here.
Oh, oh, JC told me you had a compound, you and George Norrie there.
Well, he's wrong.
Oh, um, um, well, I was wondering, you know, maybe I could stay at your compound.
I could take care of your little baby.
Well, thanks for the offer, Edna, but if I were you, I think I'd keep your head down because, you know, JC's out there and he's looking for you hard.
Yes, I know.
And I wanted to tell you that I do believe, in answer to your question, I believed about that before this came out on this fellow who died.
Oh, you mean Roswell?
Yes.
And so even Edna, Believes now that this is the real McCoy.
You know, I shouldn't have let you say where you are.
I know JC really is looking very, very hard for you, Edna.
So, now he knows the town you're in if you told the truth.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Going once.
Going twice.
Gone.
Let's go to this Wild Card Line.
You're on the air.
Hello.
Hello, Art.
Hi.
clear up one thing for me I would appreciate it you're an old Air Force
person that's right I've listened and loved you for years but it sure sounds
like any time you personally are talking about a UFO that you're insinuating that
it's otherworldly. Is that right or wrong? Well, wrong. A UFO is an unidentified flying object.
It doesn't mean it's extraterrestrial.
It means it's an object in the air and it's not identified.
Okay, I just wondered if that's what you're coming to the conclusion because you've talked about triangles and it seems to me that the way you talk about just UFOs, I love your show, is that You believe them to be otherworldly, but I'm not putting words in your mouth if that's what it is.
Well good, don't, because that's not true.
I just, I thought I just clarified it for you.
Let me do it again.
An object in the air that is not identified is a UFO.
However, for example, with respect to what we're talking about tonight, we're talking about a man who, following his death, told the story of what happened at Roswell.
Now, he saw a flying saucer.
He saw a disk.
He also saw bodies.
Non-human bodies.
What does that sound like to you?
Well, I don't know about the bodies, but the disks, the U.S.
Air Force has had disks.
Really?
Not then?
Well, I don't know about... Well, how do you know, really?
Sixty years ago.
Pardon?
That was sixty years ago now, sir.
Yeah, I know, but, uh, you... Are you telling me... You don't really know, Art.
Nobody really knows.
Well, I'm just telling you what is in the document that this man left to be opened now, which has been opened, uh, following his death.
Okay, well, you cleared it for me.
Thank you very much, and I'll stick with you.
You have a great night.
You're very welcome.
Now, even the giant triangle I saw, I can't tell you that it was from elsewhere.
In fact, I think that in every instance that I have described it, although I have said clearly, and will say again, that it appeared to be defying gravity, it appeared to be of large mass, It could have been some sort of experimental lighter-than-aircraft something.
And I think I've clearly stated, on each occasion that I've discussed it, that I have no real way of knowing where it came from.
But in the case of Roswell, we're talking about a disc.
Flying saucer.
Seen on the ground.
Crashed!
We're talking about biological entities that were small, And non-human.
And again, we're talking about the man who was the public relations officer for the base way back in 1947, who now, following his death, has left a document saying that he saw all of this.
To me, that has meaning.
From the High Desert and the Great American Southwest, I'm Art Bell.
Indeed, here I am.
Tom Carey has been a mutual UFO network and MUFON state director in southeastern Pennsylvania, a special investigator for the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, as well as a member of the CUFOS, C-U-F-O-S, Board of Directors.
Tom began investigating aspects of the Roswell incident in 1991 for the Roswell investigative team of Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt.
And since 98 has teamed exclusively with Don Schmidt to continue a proactive investigation.
Tom has authored or co-authored over 30 published articles about the Roswell events of 1947.
And has contributed to a number of books on the subject as well.
He appeared as a guest on many radio and television shows throughout the country.
This will be his first on coast and has contributed to a number of Roswell related documents on screen and behind the scenes.
Most recently, Tom was a consultant and interviewee with Don Schmidt on the Sci-Fi Channel documentary, The Roswell Crash, Startling New Evidence, 2002, and the History Channel's Conspiracy Theory, Roswell 2005, Travel Channel's Weird America, Roswell 2005, and the Sci-Fi Channel's Sci-Fi Investigates Roswell, 2006.
In a moment, Tom Carrey.
Tom Carrey, welcome to Coast to Coast AM.
Good morning, Art.
Good to be with you.
Great to have you.
Now listen, be aware, as you know, or I should inform the audience, I called you when I bumped into this news.com.au news story, breaking dated July 1st.
Now, I called you earlier in the evening and I said, oh my God, this is pretty good timing.
And you said, well, it's the last chapter in my book.
I read it to the audience.
Not the chapter in your book, but the news.com.au story in the first hour, because I think it is really, really important.
It's going to kind of jump ahead in terms of our interview, and I understand that, but my God, what a story!
Well, we thought it was the sealed statement It was something that Walter Haupt wanted to do in, I'm sorry, in 2002.
All right, that's when he actually wrote it?
Yes.
Okay.
Up until that point, he had more or less said the same story over and over again, the same account of his involvement in the Roswell incident, namely that of the And over the years, I knew Walter ever since my first trip to Roswell in 1994, I think it was.
famous press release to the news media in Roswell.
And over the years, I knew Walter for...ever since my first trip to Roswell in 1994, I
think it was.
And a finer gentleman you could never hope to meet.
All right.
Well, again, he was, of course, the public relations officer at the base in 1947.
Now, in the years prior to his passing, what, just for the record, what was his official story?
What did he tell everybody?
His official story was that he was in his office on Tuesday, July the 8th, 1947, when he received a phone call from the base commander, the commander of the 509th Bomb Group, William Blanchard, that Blanchard wanted him to take down a statement that he was going to dictate to him, announcing the capture of a flying saucer, as they were called in those days.
And so he took the statement down, I think it began, the many rumors concerning the Flying Saucer, etc.
are true, and it went on for a bit.
So, around noontime, First Lieutenant Haupt went around to the four news media, two radio stations, two newspapers in Roswell with the news release, press release.
And went back to his desk, and that was the end of his involvement, according to his story.
And that's what he maintained the whole time he was alive, since the incident?
Yes.
Occasionally he would, you know, say something additionally, like, I believe it was a UFO, just don't ask me why.
Things like that, but if you knew Walter and if you knew people you knew, at least in my opinion, here was a man who was carrying a secret that he was not divulging.
Whenever we would ask him questions, further questions about Roswell, this was before the sealed statement, he would say, In addition to that, his story was, whenever he was sort of pushed into a corner, he would say, I just can't remember, it was too long ago.
So things he didn't want to answer, that was his standard response.
How old was he when he passed?
I think he was like 80, early 80s.
I don't know exactly which, but he was in the early 80s.
But when he crafted the sealed statement, he was in good health, and he wanted to leave a legacy of truth.
Now, also, we talked, you know, why would he do this?
Someone who was Blanchard's right-hand man, how could he not know more than what he was saying?
I mean, he had to know.
He was Blanchard's right-hand man.
Blanchard knew everything.
And for years and years, it was, well, that's all I know.
And we would say, well, weren't you at the least bit curious?
And that's when he would say, well, jeez, I can't remember now, but that's all that I know.
All right, so you knew him.
Tell me about him.
What kind of man was he?
You said he was a fine man.
He was just a fine gentleman.
He was the type of person that if you organized a group of any sort, he was the one you would want to elect president.
Everybody liked him, smiled all the time, and he just had that demeanor.
He was about 6'3", 6'4", tall man that just had a presence about him.
And the other thing was that Blanchard really liked Walter Haupt, and Haupt could have followed Blanchard all the way to the Pentagon, and certainly at a minimum have been a colonel.
But perhaps he could have got a star or two, because Blanchard was earmarked for the Chief of Staff of the Air Force.
Being the right-hand man of a potential Chief of Staff, you would just go right up the line yourself.
So that was also curious to us as to why he would not follow Blanchard and choose to remain in Roswell.
How long was Walter Hunt in the military service?
I think he joined in 1942 or thereabouts, and he got out, I think it was 1948.
He was a bombardier in World War II, B-29s, and he and Blanchard hooked up at Roswell.
And I think Hout was also in that famous Operation Crossroads in 1946.
In some capacity, in which Blanchard was already the commander of the 509th Bomb Group.
So he was probably, it was what, five years prior to his death, right?
2002, you said he wrote this.
December of 2002.
Who was aware of the fact that he wrote this?
His family, my co-author Don Schmidt and myself.
So he wrote this and put it where?
Well, I don't know if he kept it in an empty box of White Owls or a safe, I don't know, but certainly with the family.
Did he ever make any reference to you, Tom, that he had signed some sort of A security promise, or that he had ever been in any way threatened?
Not threatened.
I don't think Walter Howe is the kind of person you threaten.
I think he would really tell you where to go, irregardless of the rank.
But we do know this.
William Blanchard, his commanding officer, and he had a very close relationship, almost like father-son, uncle-nephew, something like that.
A very good relationship.
And we had bandied it about, and we turned out to be right that he had promised Butch, Blanchard's nickname, Uh, that he would never talk about it.
And Blanchard had asked him and he promised that he would not talk about the Roswell incident.
So he was keeping the secret for Butch all of these years.
But in the end, before he checked out, he did want to have a record of the truth.
About what went down at Roswell in 1947, and the sealed statement was his vehicle to give the truth, but also not tell it during his life.
So he would keep the promise that he made to Butch.
Understood.
Well, when the Air Force had their now infamous, it was dummies that were dropped and tried to You know, the mogul, and then the whole mogul business.
If that had been the real cover story, certainly at that point, he would have felt free to discuss any aspect of Roswell, because the Air Force themselves were supposedly going public, saying, okay, finally, here he is, we can finally now tell you the real truth about what happened at Roswell.
Secret Project.
That makes perfect sense.
It reminds me of one of the pilots from Roswell in 1947, Pappy Henderson.
When he was in the, you know, he was sworn to secrecy.
He was in a supermarket in 1980 or 81, somewhere in there, and he saw on one of the tabloids Sure.
story about the Roswell incident and he told his wife Sappho, well I guess I can tell you the story now, I see that it's
out.
Yes. So if Mogul had been the explanation, like you say, I would have thought that
you know he would feel that okay it's okay to talk now.
Sure. Makes sense to me. Sure.
So you don't know where this, it was a sworn affidavit however,
Were you part of... I mean, how did you know that he was doing that?
Did he tell you and tell the world or his wife or, you know, whoever?
Well, no, he told his family, of course, and his daughter Julie is the director of the UFO Museum in Roswell, and Don Schmidt is on the board of directors.
And we are good friends, so it was... Don and I go down to Roswell several times a year to conduct our research, so we were pretty good friends with the family, so I think it's natural that we would know.
But he didn't... in other words, even those close to him did not know?
They did not know the true His true involvement, his true knowledge of the incident until the sealed statement was opened.
I believe, well, he passed last year, so it would be late last year that it was opened.
They did not know his involvement, the extent of his involvement beyond the press release until that sealed statement was opened.
I would think, Tom, that this would be So serious, what we're discussing right now, that it would almost require some sort of response from the military or from somebody.
Well, we hear just tangentially that, you know, the Air Force has already under their belt four explanations to Roswell.
The original That it was a flying saucer.
The second one was that it was a weather balloon.
The third one was that it was a mogul balloon.
And the fourth one has to do with the crash test dummies.
So their next explanation will be their fifth.
And I'm sure they really mean it this time.
Do you think there will be a fifth?
No.
In other words, you do not?
No.
So you think they will simply not respond in any way to this?
If they respond, they will stand by what they've already got out there.
Because the fourth explanation, the reporters in the room were howling with laughter, so I don't know if they want to go through that again.
And if you keep changing your explanations at some point, people don't believe you anymore.
Yes, that's right.
I don't know.
I don't think they will.
I've got to tell you, Tom, this virtually cinches it for me.
I mean, I had a big question mark over Roswell all my life, but this really does cinch it for me.
It honestly does.
People, they just don't... Look, I said it to the audience in the first hour, and I'll say it to you now.
If he had wanted to make something of this, he was in a position where he could have written books Made a lot of money, done any TV and radio appearance he wished to do, and really just could have done anything he wanted while he was alive with this.
So the fact that he didn't, and wrote this document, this sworn affidavit, and only to be opened after he was dead, it really does cinch it for me, Tom.
What about you?
Well, Art, I was convinced...
Before the sealed statement, for me, the sealed statement is sort of the icing on the cake because I already had come to the conclusion of what went down at Roswell because of our investigation, which is ongoing.
Okay.
And I would like to talk about that.
In other words, yes, you were convinced before this.
Well, I wasn't, but I'd be very interested in hearing what did it for you.
I know you've been investigating for years, so maybe you can sort of, I don't know, lead us through your investigation and get to what actually cinched it for you prior to this.
Okay.
Let's start here.
How did you even get interested in the whole subject?
That's an interesting question.
In 1991, I was a reading member of the Center for UFO Studies.
I received their quarterly magazine, and there was an investigative team in there of Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt, who were publishing articles about the Roswell incident.
Now, I had read the Roswell incident book when it came out in 1980, and as far as my interest in UFOs, that sort of cinched it for me, as to my real focus, was the Crash Saucer phenomenon.
It seemed to me that Randall and Schmidt had an investigation going on, which I just found fascinating.
And one of the aspects of the investigation actually goes back to the original book, The Roswell Incident, about these archaeologists that stumbled upon the crashed saucer and some crew members lying about.
Of course, that was the old Barney Barnett story at that point, but the involvement of the archaeologists is what interested me, because of my background in anthropology and archaeology.
And the fact that these archaeologists allegedly came from the University of Pennsylvania, and myself living near Philadelphia, I thought, well, geez, this ought to be a slam dunk for me to go down to the university and find out who they were.
All right.
Hold it right there, Tom.
Tom Carey is my guest.
He's a first-time guest on Coast, but a longtime investigator of the Roswell case.
And we have big new news on Roswell tonight.
We'll be right back.
Here I am.
All right, everybody.
It's breaking everywhere now.
At this hour, we're collecting stories from thisislondon.co.uk.
So from England, I'm seeing yet another story I just found.
Daily Mail in London also just broke the story.
So at this hour, it's breaking worldwide.
What am I talking about?
I'm talking about Lieutenant Walter Hout.
And it's funny the way news stories break, isn't it?
Actually, Tom got it in the last chapter of his book.
And we'll find out the timing on that here shortly, but this is just breaking now around the world.
It's one of those stories that once it breaks in one place, it's going to break everywhere, and thank goodness the timing is absolutely perfect for this night and my guest, Tom Carrey, the subject Roswell, breaking news.
We'll be right back.
Tom, we've got to come back to it for a moment here, because it's breaking in the mainstream press very rapidly.
I've now got two stories from Great Britain, which has always just bugged the hell out of me, the fact that I've got to get important news about things that occur here in the U.S.
from other nations, particularly from Great Britain and, of course, Australia.
Tom, why do you think this is, virtually, as we're speaking, at this hour, beginning to break so hard in the mainstream press?
That's a good question, Art.
It is.
When our book came out, I tried to interest our local media here in Philadelphia about not only the 60th anniversary that's approaching, but also our book.
And the fact that there was a local angle, meaning me, that was involved in the case, and so far they've shown no interest.
But apparently across the world, in Australia and Great Britain, they have a different attitude.
Now, I think, I'm guessing this is just speculation as to why it's breaking now, is that last week Bill Burns, the publisher of UFO Magazine, held a press conference in New York City announcing the sealed statement of Walter Howe.
Of course, he gave the source of the statement as our book, but the fact that he held it in New York City, perhaps there were other newsmen there from wherever, And the internet being what it is, you know how word gets around much faster these days than when the first Roswell book came out.
So I'm guessing that's how it's happened.
Well, this is only tangent.
It's not really related.
But you know, you remember the Phoenix Lights?
Yes.
I covered that.
I was on the air the night that happened.
I took call after call after call after call.
Witnesses, people who were frantic, saw the Phoenix Lights, saw the craft, swore to me they had seen a solid craft and so forth and so on.
The whole night, that's all we did was take calls.
Phoenix, Phoenix, Phoenix.
Then, for three months, Uh, Tom, it went deader than a doornail.
Not a word.
And then, like, somebody threw a switch.
ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, all of them were on the Phoenix Lights like it had happened hours ago.
It's like somebody threw a switch.
It's like somebody has to take the lead, I presume, and report it.
And then the others will follow.
But maybe sometimes no one wants to take that.
But it's happening again, right before our eyes, right now.
And so... That's good to hear from our perspective.
Well, I guess so.
I guess so.
Tell me how you managed to get it in your book.
Your book came out how long ago?
We finished it in December and it came out three weeks ago.
Three weeks ago.
And when did you get the information on the sealed statement into the book as the last chapter?
December.
December?
Yes.
So, it was in the manuscript.
We finished the manuscript in December, sent it to the publisher, and it hit the bookstores, most notably Barnes & Noble, three weeks ago.
Three weeks ago?
Yes.
That's incredible.
It had an incredible start, and we're going into our second printing.
Already?
Yes.
And what kind of reaction have you been getting to that last chapter?
Well, Don and I have been getting a lot of emails, and all of them are outstanding.
I mean, the feedback has been outstanding, but what's interesting is that while the media seems to have latched on to the sealed statement, the emails that we're getting are more Just about the wealth of information, the wealth of new information in the book.
The sealed statement we put in there to be the crown jewel of the book.
And placing it last for best effect.
Well, you understand, don't you, why it's such a big deal?
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, a man who could have made a lot of money, who could have been famous, could have virtually done anything he wanted to do with that information when he was alive to have written it as an affidavit.
And one only to be opened on his death.
It's a big story.
I'm glad the press now is Recognizing it as such, and I suppose eventually we're going to see something in the American media, virtually any minute.
We hope!
Alright, well let's come back for a moment, even though this certainly qualifies as breaking news.
Let's come back to, I guess, what got you, or what convinced you, and that's a strong word, convinced.
Convinced you about Roswell in the first place.
I liked the first book, the 1980 Roswell incident, but it was the Randall Schmidt book of 1991, UFO Crash at Roswell, that really, for me, got me thinking, wow, this is... because they had so much new information in it, I thought, wow, here's a lot of work done, and boy, did they uncover a lot of new information about the case, testimony, and what have you, and I said, boy, There's really something to this.
Now, Don and I teamed up in 1998.
Now, this is a year after the hoopla from the 1997 50th anniversary where, you know, the media really took to the case.
And most of the Former investigators, I feel, packed it in at that point, 1997.
Before the show, I looked through my library here at the Roswell books that I had.
Most of them were written in 1997, ten years ago.
So, Don and I wanted to continue a proactive, I emphasize the word proactive, investigation of the case, meaning that We're not going to sit around and wait for leads to plop in our laps.
We're going to go out there and shake the tree and see what we can find.
We didn't know what we would find, but there were still a number of witnesses that hadn't been talked to, many of them, and enough out there that it made it worthwhile for us to continue.
And the continuing wealth of information from witness testimony and believe me
they're not talking about
a weather balloon or a high-altitude balloon that they are not is uh... what sort of put the nail in the
coffin for me of any other explanation other than uh... a ufo crashed
what do you think you know for sure Gosh, I say for sure.
I mean, you talk to witnesses.
What kind of things did they tell you?
Well, the witnesses that we talked to, they don't know the whole story.
They only know their little piece of it.
Sure.
What they saw, what somebody told them, in some cases what they handled, and it's our job To put the little pieces of the puzzle into a framework that makes sense.
And that's the way we look at it.
Now, we've found new witnesses who have seen the bodies.
A number of them say that one was alive.
We believe there were two body sites.
One up on the Foster Ranch where Mack Brazel discovered all of that wreckage in his sheep pasture.
Right.
Two miles from there, where Mac found something else, which we believe were three bodies.
There's another body site 40 miles north of Roswell in Chavez County, where the remainder of the craft that blew up over Brazos Pasture came to rest.
We believe it was an escape pod or an escape capsule or some sort of interior protective device.
In case of some malfunction and it came to rest north of town with four occupants and one which was alive.
Wow.
That's what's always bothered me.
On the ranch, I never felt, although obviously I wasn't there and I didn't see how much debris there was, but you know they discussed the material that would bend, but wouldn't burn, or couldn't be torn, or whatever.
And I always thought, well that's interesting, but we're not talking about a craft here, and now we're talking about other crash sites.
So in other words, only part of this came down on the farm, And the rest of it came down elsewhere, yes?
Yes, exactly.
And along the way, three occupants were blown out and landed two and a half miles from the original debris field site.
So we're talking about seven occupants, one of which was alive, at least for a period of time.
A sheep pasture, maybe a mile long and a couple hundred feet wide, just covered with wreckage in small pieces, and an egg-shaped pod or an escape capsule of some sort that continued on for another few miles and came to rest about 40 miles north of town.
Tom, how detailed a description of the occupants do we have?
What is the best?
They're all the same.
They're all the same.
Yes, the descriptions we're getting are very similar.
How many witnesses are we talking about?
When you say they're all the same, how many witnesses contributed descriptions that match?
Oh, geez.
I'd have to sit down.
I mean, it's like over 10, maybe 20.
I'd have to sit down and just add them up.
10 to 20, somewhere in there.
That's a lot of people.
Yes.
All right.
Can you give me your best shot at describing what they describe, please?
Yes.
Three and a half to four feet tall, maybe 40 pounds.
Very frail, but the overwhelming, the overriding feature is the large head.
Everyone describes a large hairless head.
Shaped like an inverted pear or an inverted egg.
Slightly slanted eyes, not like these big black ovals that you see, you know, in the abduction... In the grays, the supposed grays, right?
Yeah, not like that.
Just slightly larger than ours, but slightly slanted.
One witness described them as, he described them as tear-shaped.
Like tears, you know, and you can imagine, just picture that.
No nose, just two little holes in the front of the head for nostrils.
Two holes for ears, no ear lobe, no fleshy part of the ear.
A slit about one inch to one and a half inches where the mouth would be.
A mouth that doesn't go anywhere, it's just made up of cartilage and a little orifice in there, but it doesn't lead to a Digestive system.
So, what am I leaving out?
Oh, the color.
Oh, arms that go below the knees.
The color is variously reported as mostly grayish, but with tints of either green, blue, orange, yellow.
And we think that that has to do with the state of decay or preservation and perhaps lighting.
But several military witnesses described, like Pappy Henderson described them as reminding him of Casper the Ghost, the old cartoon character.
Friendly ghost, yeah.
Yes.
Another witness, we believe Jesse Marcel saw the bodies.
That's another new, Jesse Marcel Sr.
That's another conclusion of our book is that the jesse marcelle saw them
at some point well if it's all
did he describe that to his son because i've interviewed on a number of
occasions his son and he never we got we got the information from a third party
and uh... the information was that jesse told them that they reminded him of white rubbery figures
Now, to me, that means something like either the Pillsbury Doughboy or the Michelin Man.
But white, rubbery figures.
And someone else, oh, another witness by the name of Marion McGruder, an Air Force pilot.
A night fighter pilot in World War II described him, he saw them at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in late July 1947 with the Air War College class.
He just described them as squiggly.
So those are some of the descriptions, but three and a half to four feet tall is pretty much described by everybody.
Okay, what about the one that was still alive?
What do we know about that one, if anything?
That one, we have, how long it lasted or how long it lived is a matter of conjecture.
We have someone who said that, there's been a story around for years that it was at Wright-Patterson
Air Force Base until 1952, at which time it expired.
If the World War II pilot, Mary Magruder, is to be believed, he saw it late July at
Wright-Patt.
All right.
Others seem to feel that it expired soon after it was brought to the base hospital.
Well, either way, if this is true, then through various means, including autopsy and a lot more, we know an awful lot about these beings.
Well, we know what they looked like.
We know where they were taken.
In fact, one of the witnesses at the site, this is before it was removed to the hospital, his family asked him, well, did it talk to you?
Did it speak to you?
And he said, yes, but in my head.
You know, he didn't say anything about mental telepathy or anything like that.
He just said that the being talked to him in his head and that it told him not to worry That it was alright, that there was nothing that he could do, that he was accepting his fate.
Something like that.
In other words, he knew he was going to die.
Well, that he wouldn't get back to where he came from.
That he was more or less stuck.
but that he accepted it and not to worry.
How much credence do you give to this report?
Bye.
Well, it was told by a public official in Roswell, who was at the site, and we got it.
He was gone by the time that the investigators came around, and we got it from a family member, whom we believe.
We think the credibility of the story is high.
He had no reason to make this up.
He didn't make any money off of it.
And it was told to the family at the time, not after the books came out, but it was told in 1947.
The family was severely threatened with their lives, never to speak of this.
And we got the story in the 90s, a few years ago.
By the way, folks, this is breaking in a sense, so if you want to read about it, coasttocoastam.com, we've got it up there now.
Scroll down on the front page, Hot Stories for Saturday, June 30th.
Roswell Officer's Deathbed Admission is the title of the story.
This one's from thisislondon.co.uk, so this one's coming from Great Britain and we've managed to get it up there.
I would like to report that they're getting their story from our book.
Witness to Roswell unmasking the 60-year cover-up.
Got it.
Clearly you had it ahead of seemingly everybody else.
Was there anybody at all, Tom, to your knowledge, that broke the story ahead of your book?
No, because there were only two copies of the sealed statement.
One that the family had and one that we had a copy our investigation had.
No.
No one else has.
I love the way the world's press operates.
I just absolutely love it.
Tom, hold tight.
We're a breaking news evening underway.
Tom Carey is my guest.
The subject is Roswell, but the news, for us, is brand new.
Tom, if you're there, I've got a quick question for you.
If you were to hear the affidavit of Walter G. Howard, would you be able to authenticate it?
If I would hear it?
Yeah, if you would hear it, would you be able to tell me if it was authentic?
Well, I have a copy in my book.
Okay.
I'm going to ask you then to hold on.
In a moment, we'll come back, and I'm going to read it.
And you can tell me if it's word-for-word correct or not.
We'll be right back.
I want to thank Doug, who is an amateur radio operator, for sending me the following.
Here it comes, folks.
2002 sealed affidavit of Walter G. Howe.
Date, December 26, 2002.
Witness, Chris, and then it's X'd out.
Notary, Beverly, and I don't want to read the last name.
I'll hold that back.
Here it comes.
1.
My name is Walter G. Hout.
2.
I was born on June 2, 1922.
3.
My address is 1405 7th Street, Roswell, New Mexico, 88203.
My address is 1405 7th Street, Roswell, New Mexico, 88203.
4.
4. I am retired.
5.
In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air Base in Roswell, New Mexico, serving as the base public information officer.
I had spent the 4th of July weekend, Saturday the 5th, and Sunday the 6th at my private residence about 10 miles north of the base, which was located south of town. 6.
I was aware that someone had reported the remains of a downed vehicle by mid-morning after my return to duty at the base Monday, July 7th.
I was aware that Major Jesse A. Marcel, Head of Intelligence, was sent by the Base Commander, Colonel William Blanchard, to investigate.
7.
By late in the afternoon that same day, I would learn that additional civilian reports came in regarding a second site, just north of Roswell.
I would spend the better part of the day attending to my regular duties, hearing little, if anything more. 8.
On Tuesday morning, July 8th, I would attend the regularly scheduled staff meeting at 7.30 a.m.
Besides Blanchard, Marcel, CIC, Counterintelligence Corps, Captain Sheridan Cavett, Colonel James I believe it's IHopkins, the Operations Officer, Lieutenant Ulysses S. Nero, the Supply Officer, and from Carswell Air Force, AAF, in Fort Worth, Texas, Blanchard's boss, Brigadier General Roger Ramey, and his Chief of Staff, Colonel Thomas DuBois, J. DuBois, were in attendance.
The main topic of discussion was reported by Marcel and Cavett Regarding an extensive debris field in Lincoln County, approximately 75 miles northwest of Roswell.
A preliminary briefing was provided by Blanchard about the second site approximately 40 miles north of town.
Samples of wreckage were passed around the table.
It was unlike any material I have ever seen in my life.
Pieces were Pieces which resembled metal foil, paper thin, yet extremely strong, and pieces with unusual markings along their length, were handed from man to man, each voicing their opinion.
No one was able to identify the crashed debris.
Nine.
One of the main concerns discussed at the meeting was whether we should go public or not with the discovery.
General Ramey proposed a plan which I believe originated from his bosses at the Pentagon.
Attention needed to be diverted from the more important site north of town by acknowledging the other location.
Too many civilians were already involved and the press already was informed.
I was not immediately informed how this would be accomplished.
10.
At approximately 9.30 a.m., Colonel Blanchard phoned my office and dictated the press release of having in our possession a flying disc coming from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and Marcel flying the material to higher headquarters.
I was to deliver the news release to radio stations KGFL and KSWS, and newspapers The Daily Record and The Morning Dispatch.
11.
By the time the news release hit the wire, Surfaces, my office was inundated with phone calls from around the world.
Messages stacked up on my desk.
Rather than deal with the media concern, Col.
Blanchard suggested I go home and hide out.
That's in quotes.
12.
Before leaving the base, Col.
Blanchard took me personally to Building 84, a.k.a.
Hangar P as in Paul III, a B-29 hangar located on the east side of the tarmac.
Upon first approaching the building, I observed that I was under heavy guard both outside and inside.
Once inside, I was permitted from a safe distance to observe the object just recovered from north of town.
It was approximately 12 to 15 feet in length, not quite as wide, about 6 feet high, and more of an egg shape.
Lighting was poor, but its surface did appear metallic.
No windows, portals, wings, tail section, or landing gear were visible. 13.
Also, from a distance, I was able to see a couple of bodies under a canvas tarpaulin.
Only the heads extended beyond the covering, and I was not able to make out any features.
The heads did appear larger than normal, and the contour of the canvas suggested the size of a ten-year-old child.
At a later date in Blanchard's office, he would extend his arm about four feet above the floor to indicate the height.
Fourteen.
I was informed of a temporary morgue set up to accommodate the recovered bodies.
Fifteen.
I was informed that the wreckage was not hot.
In parentheses, radioactive.
16.
Upon his return from Fort Worth, Major Marcel described to me taking pieces of the wreckage to General Ramey's office and, after returning from a map room, finding the remains of a weather balloon and radar kite substituted while he was out of the room.
Marcel was very upset over this situation.
We would not discuss it again.
17.
I would be allowed to make at least one visit To one of the recovery sites during the military cleanup.
I would return to the base with some of the wreckage which I would display in my office.
Eighteen.
I was aware two separate teams would return to each site months later for periodic searches for any remaining evidence.
19.
I am convinced that what I personally observed was some type of craft and its crew from outer space.
20.
I have not been paid nor given anything of value to make this statement and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.
Signed, Walter G. Howe, December 26, 2002.
Signature of witness by Chris and then it's X'd out.
Tom, did I read the real thing?
Exactly.
Word for word.
There you got it, folks.
That's it.
I'm glad for some personal reasons that I was able to air this.
I guess I've been waiting for this for a long time, Tom, and I guess when you first saw it, you must have felt the same way.
Yes.
Of course, I knew of its existence But when I actually read it, it just, for me, it confirmed everything that I knew or suspected.
And Walter being the kind of person he was, you know, you would not think it was anything other than the truth.
I don't.
I believe it.
Word for word.
Completely.
I believe it, Tom.
It's as simple as that.
We've been visited.
Well, certainly this, uh, uh, I don't, I don't know about other cases, uh, but certainly the Roswell case to me is a case of, uh, that strongly suggests I can, I can only use those words strongly suggests as an investigator, a case of alien visitation.
It's the simplest explanation to use Occam's razor, uh, that explains the data.
Anything else, you have to go far afield to make it fit.
The wealth of information that we have, the only thing that fits is an extraterrestrial craft and crew.
Yeah, obviously.
Tom, do you know offhand, I'm reaching out on the edge now, but during the telepathic communication, you indicated that the creature said It accepted its fate.
Yes.
Knew it wasn't going to go home.
Was there anything else about the beings themselves, the reason, the motivation for the visit, anything at all that was allegedly communicated by this being?
Not to this witness.
If anything like that would have transpired, I would suspect that it was when it was in Well, captivity, I don't like to use that word, but when it was... Well, that's probably the right word.
When it was in the care of our military, either at Wright-Patterson, or perhaps it was loaned elsewhere, we don't know.
But as far as we're concerned, that gets into the area of Speculation, because we're asked that question occasionally.
You know, where were they from?
Why were they here?
I'm sorry, again, how many bodies total?
I believe there were seven, one alive for at least a period of time.
With the one being one of the seven?
Yes.
Okay.
Do we have any idea where these bodies... I mean, obviously we still have them somewhere.
We would have kept these bodies forever and ever.
Do you have any guesses or knowledge about where they might be now?
Where they are at as we speak, I don't know.
But we do know that they were loaned around for study.
Loaned around?
Yes.
To various military bases that had facilities to examine them further.
One being, one that I'm aware of is Randolph Air Force Base near San Antonio, Texas. We had a story from
a fellow who was a civilian there back in 1964. That's back when I
was in the Air Force.
That he saw one there, and Randolph has an aeromedical facility, which is a, you know, a
medical facility, and he saw one there in 1964. We have reports of one or more being in Florida.
There's three bases that I know of.
Homestead, Eglind, and MacDill.
I don't know which one, but certainly reports there.
We know one of the flights went there out of Roswell.
We know one of the flights went to Florida, whether it took one of the Bodies, we don't know, but we can speculate.
Alright, Tom, here's another speculative question.
This was a long time ago now.
Sixty years ago now.
Tom, do we think we understand why the government, the military, why our leaders felt it necessary for this amount of time to keep this You know, I mean, it's the biggest story in the world.
There is not a bigger story if we've been visited by beings from elsewhere.
Why they felt it necessary to keep this secret for 60 years?
We don't believe there's any logical reason today to keep it secret, because of the discoveries of other planets in the universe.
That's right.
A small number of which seem to resemble Earth.
There's no good reason today, in my opinion.
Just the perpetuation of secrecy?
In other words, once you've told a lie, then I suppose, you know, we all know how lies go.
We believe that's what's keeping the secret today, or the cover-up, is the perpetuation of a lie.
But back in 1947, there were good, logical reasons to keep this secret.
At first, they thought it was Russian.
Then they realized it wasn't Russian, and it became, with the dawn of the Cold War, that we have to keep this secret from the Russians.
Perhaps we could exploit It's technology, and let's keep it secret from the Russians.
Okay, you know, that's understandable.
I mean, it really is.
But the Soviet Union is gone.
No more.
It seems to me this sealed affidavit blows it all wide open.
Now, there's going to have to be some answers.
I mean, there's going to have to be a response to this, Tom.
You would think?
Yeah.
The other evidence, which I admit is compelling, this is really compelling.
I mean, again, this man was on the inside.
He saw a lot.
He was the right-hand man of the base commander who was, when Blanchard passed away at age 50, He was second in command of the entire Air Force.
He was Vice Chief of Staff, four stars.
He was scheduled to become the next Chief of Staff of the Air Force.
Not something you would give to someone who would make a boo-boo back in 1947 and get everybody excited over a weather balloon.
That's right.
No, that's exactly right.
This really blows it open.
Alright, you describe these beings three and a half, four feet tall, forty pounds perhaps, frail, very frail, large heads, slightly slanted eyes, tear-shaped eyes, arms that extended down below their knees, I think it's time that our government and our military gave it up.
Obviously, they've got these bodies.
It's time, Tom.
You would think.
You would think.
Especially the... You know, I think people are accepting.
I mean, it's not the days of... Remember the old science fiction movies?
With the...
Earth vs. the Flying Saucers, that sort of stuff, it's not those days anymore.
Although, one has to wonder if there is something beyond what you know and I know now, tonight, That they may have found out that caused them to keep this secret.
In other words, more than just building on a lie or holding on to a lie.
Maybe there's something that they found out, some technology that, you know, was back-engineered.
I don't know.
The only other thing that makes quasi-sense is that in the early 60s, the Brookings Institution conducted a study of the potential effects of Contact with an extraterrestrial civilization, and all the potential effects were bad.
Destruction of our financial institutions, collapse of our financial institutions, our religious institutions, and our social institutions.
Tom, you'll never know.
I have quoted Brookings to the point of nausea, you know, as what I believe to be still the reason that we keep this secret.
Certainly, we believe it's certainly still a factor, but the other factor is, as you said, the perpetuation of a lie.
We think it's those two today.
Well, maybe.
I'm not sure that religious institutions would crumble.
I'm sure there'd be some shaking going on, but I don't see them as crumbling, you know, unless the real truth includes You know, some kind of information, for example, that telepathically someone was told that they are our makers.
You know, something of that magnitude could certainly cause a collapse.
Yeah, something like that.
And you're not aware of anything like that, are you?
No, no.
The only thing that we're aware of is what the one witness was able to convey, about what he heard in his head.
And that was it?
That the creature was aware of its fate?
Yes.
And he was trying to calm, to ease the concern of the person that was out there, the city official.
And he said, you know, don't worry.
There's nothing you can do.
I accept what's happened.
Can you name this person?
Yes.
One of the firemen that was out there.
One of the firemen?
Yes, his name was Dan Dwyer.
And he has since passed?
Oh, yes.
Yes, he was long gone by the time the case became known to investigators.
So we got the information from his daughter.
All right.
Tom, hold tight from his daughter.
Wow.
Tom Carrey is my guest, and this is Without a Doubt, a breaking news night from the high desert and the great American Southwest.
I'm Art Bell.
Isn't this fascinating?
I mean, this news has been out.
It really has.
It's in Tom Carrey's book.
Apparently that was the first place, and it's really been sitting there since about, oh, December or so.
But it didn't break.
I mean, it may have been recited by one person or another, and certainly appeared in the book, and now all of a sudden, click!
It's fascinating the way our press works.
It really is.
What a story.
Tom Carrey is my guest.
He'll be right back.
I don't know what's true.
Maybe it's true that Information gets out and somehow it's not recognized for the level of importance that it carries for some time.
I'm not sure.
Let me ask you this.
Scott sent me a message here from Texas, Humboldt, Texas.
It says, Art, for the sake of good record, do any medical records exist that show without any doubt that Colonel, was not suffering from some sort of senility or any other medical defect caused by old age on the date of 12-22-2002 when that affidavit was signed?
Hello?
Yes.
As a matter of fact, he had just had a medical examination, a physical, at that time and he was in good health.
So it was at that time they said, let's let's do a sealed statement now because he's feeling good.
He just had, you know, medical, uh, physical, right.
Good health.
And, uh, rather than, uh, you know, because if he was in his eighties when he passed away, uh, 2002, he'd be, he'd be in his late seventies, right?
Yes, sir.
So that he said, let's do it now.
So, uh, You know, there are medical records, I'm sure, but I haven't looked at them.
Okay, but you are aware of a physical examination, right, at the point, or just prior to the point where he did the affidavit?
Yes.
Can I just say something to end the story about the firemen?
You certainly may.
There was some, when that story first came out, there was a controversy over whether fire trucks went out Outside the city limits of Roswell.
About two years ago, I interviewed the sons of the former fire chief.
Rue Crispin was the fire chief.
He had two sons that I interviewed.
And what it was, they both said that it wasn't a full-fledged fire wagon that went out.
It was what they call a tanker.
Which is basically a pickup with a large tank on the back filled with water.
Right.
And that's what went out.
Dan Dwyer was the driver and his co-pilot was a fellow named Lee Reeves.
Dwyer was dead before we came calling and Lee Reeves we've never found and he's presumed to be dead.
So a tanker truck went out.
You've never found and he is presumed to be dead?
Lee Reeves, yes.
I looked for it, you know, basically what we have are phone books, the internet phone book, and we have not been able to find a Lee Reeves that used to live in Roswell.
So if he's still out there, if he's still alive, I'm sure you'd love to hear from him.
I sure would.
Alright, so we have actually several, three crash sites?
Yes.
Well, one is what we call a body sight.
It wasn't a case where the craft came down and crashed again.
It's just that it blew up over Brazzle Sheep Pasture, perhaps struck with lightning, perhaps a malfunction of some sort.
Actually, I was going to additionally ask, is there any possibility, or has it been suggested, Tom, that we may have shot it down?
We've heard that question asked.
We have no indication that it was shot down.
Perhaps it had something to do with, there were various locations in New Mexico, which was highly secret at that time, that had radar.
And the thought, the only other thought that it What could have happened is something malfunctioning because of the radar.
We don't know.
It's just speculation.
But those are the two possibilities.
We know that there was a tremendous thunder and lightning storm going on that night.
It was the monsoon season for New Mexico, early July, and we've seen some of that lightning and thunder, and it's scary.
Oh, it is indeed.
We get it here a little bit later.
But oh yes, Roswell gets pounded by incredible lightning storms.
So, you know, speculating along those lines, you know, makes as much sense as anything else, and of course the radar is against speculation, but no thought that If they were tracking it and opened up on it and shot it down, we don't buy that.
All right.
You, I take it, are quite familiar, I hope, with Lieutenant Corso's book and his testimony?
Well, it's ten years ago.
I know the basics of it.
Okay.
I had the fortune to interview Colonel Corso.
Oh gosh, I think a total of three or four times perhaps.
And he articulated some of the technology that he alleges he passed on from the Roswell crash to American industry.
You know about all that?
Well yes, I guess he worked for a fellow named Trudeau.
And he was given the Roswell file and they back-engineered, re-engineered some items.
You know, Don and I, we don't follow that trail.
Our mission is to follow the trail leading to whether this event really happened or it didn't happen.
Something like back-engineering and whether things like transistors and Velcro and Fiber optics came from the Roswell crash.
That's not on our radar.
All right.
You want to verify the crash itself?
Yes.
The crash, recovery, cover-up, that sort of thing.
Would you call this affidavit that I read a little while ago... Smoking gun?
Well, smoking gun, holy grail, whatever.
Certainly a smoking gun.
The holy grail for us is an actual piece of what we call the memory medal.
This is that medal that's been described by various witnesses.
You're saying you have a piece?
No, I say we're looking for a piece.
That's our holy grail.
Where you could just wad it up in your hand and it feels like you have nothing in your hand and you turn it over and you drop it on a flat surface and it just flattens right out in about a second to the original shape.
According to the affidavit, there were pieces of that or something passed around virtually hand-to-hand.
Yes.
Yes.
We've spoken to a number of witnesses who have seen and held that sort of material.
And the reason we call it the Holy Grail of Roswell is because you don't, if you have a piece of that, you go on camera and you don't have to send it away to be analyzed for isotopic constituents.
You can just visually see that it's something truly extraordinary, that you don't have to send it out, and certainly they had nothing like that in 1947.
I don't think they have anything like that today, at least from the descriptions that we've heard.
In your investigations, Tom, there obviously have been, around the world, there have been many crashes.
And contact stories.
I wonder if you've gone beyond Roswell.
I mean, once you believe that this occurred in Roswell, then you have to begin wondering whether it's occurred legitimately elsewhere since.
Well, you know, Art, until this case is finished, You know, Don works full-time and so do I. And so we have to focus our attention.
Right.
And until this case is solved, until we're finished with this case, that means either all the witnesses die... And we're getting close to that point, aren't we?
Yes.
People pictured in the base yearbook from 1947, of the hundreds that we've called, about 90% of them are gone now.
Sure.
There's about 10% left and maybe half of those are infirm to the point that we can't interview them.
So we're talking about a shrinking witness pool that certainly by the next You know, 10th anniversary, the 70th anniversary, there won't be anyone left to interview.
So, we're going to follow this until either the witnesses pass away, we pass away, we find a piece of memory metal, or that day of disclosure comes to a reality, meaning the government comes clean.
I wonder if something with the power This affidavit has power.
There's no question about it.
Absolutely.
I wouldn't close out the possibility that at some level somebody is considering whether it's time to come clean.
We've heard from one witness.
We didn't believe everything he said, because we caught him fabricating documents.
This was after he passed away, but we believe he was connected.
And in his final days, he told us that the game continues.
And what is that game?
He said they're trying to run out the clock.
Well, the clock is running out.
Yep.
But the problem with any witness, of course, once you've caught him in a lie, then all the material is suspect.
Yes, yes.
But we knew this gentleman for years, and we're still debating what his role was.
And just to be very clear, we're absolutely not talking about Walter Hout here.
No, no.
Absolutely not talking about Walter Howe.
Okay.
His story was consistent over the years, but you had to believe he had to know more than just the original press release, just from where he was placed.
And if you read his body language, his language was, I am keeping a secret.
Yeah.
I'm not going to tell you what it is.
And rather than lie about it, he would just, when you pressed him, he would just say, oh, it was a long time ago.
Did he ever allude to what he signed?
No.
to what he signed? No, no. After we knew he signed it, we just didn't ask him any more
No.
You're talking about the affidavit now, right?
Yes.
Did he ever allude to what he might have originally signed in terms of some sort of promise or security document?
Oh, no.
In fact, we don't believe he did sign one.
I can't remember now if it's in the affidavit or not.
But the promise to Butch Blanchard was enough for him.
Well, we all, you know, everybody on the service took an oath.
And I guess he was, uh, I guess he was keeping that oath.
Yes, he was keeping the oath.
And more importantly, his, uh, his promise to, uh, to Blanchard.
Because they were, uh, good friends and, uh, Walter could have followed him to, you know, to Washington and, uh, to, uh, you know, maybe a star or two.
Did Blanchard ever make any statements?
Very few.
In a few years after this happened, he was attending a function in Roswell, and he spoke to, I believe it was Art McQuitty, who was the publisher of the, I get confused if he was the publisher of the Roswell Morning Dispatch, or he was one of the owners of KSWS, the radio station.
But McQuitty asked him, what was that stuff?
Back in 47.
And all Blanchard said was, it was the strangest thing he'd ever seen.
The strangest thing he'd ever seen.
Well, that certainly wouldn't be consistent with... A balloon.
At all.
And he made some statements at home whenever his family pressed him.
Dad, what was that?
What was that?
His daughter, Dale, mentioned in an article that was published in 1996, That whenever they asked him about Roswell, he would like stare off into space and say, the Russians have some amazing things.
That's all he said, the Russians have some amazing things.
And that was the end of the conversation.
Not that amazing.
And who, obviously Walter Hout, who would you rate next in importance in terms of the witnesses?
Uh, wow.
Um, certainly Edwin Easley, the, uh, who said Provost Marshall, who, uh, when Randall interviewed him, I think it was 1989.
He just kept repeating.
I can't tell you anything.
I'm still sworn to secrecy.
Uh, now, you know, what kind of balloon, you know, it just doesn't hold up that, uh, a rubber balloon.
Is something that will cause you to be sworn to secrecy?
Not at all, nor even... And what year was that that he said that?
1989.
But later on we found out that when he was on his deathbed, his granddaughter came in with a copy of Randall and Schmitt's I don't know if it was their first book or their second book, but it was about Roswell.
And she said, Granddad, what about this?
Held up the book in front of him and he said, Oh, the creatures.
Oh, the creatures.
And we know from other witnesses that he was out at the crash site.
They saw him out there.
In fact, his daughter, who's a lawyer today, was part of the The archaeological team, the volunteers digging in 2002 for the sci-fi documentary, The Roswell Crash, Startling New Evidence.
She was out there.
She wanted to see where her father had been and if he had done a good job of cleaning up the site.
Apparently so.
Yes.
Has there been, in all the years, in all the attempts, has there been anything at all Well, in 2002, we had the financial backing of a sci-fi channel, and we had a team of archaeologists, degreed archaeologists from the University of New Mexico, leading us.
One of the, we did find some things, and before I tell you, I just want to say that we dug in an area that, in my opinion, was not prime for finding what we were looking for.
By that I mean a piece of metal, you know, some of that memory metal or some of the rigid metal.
So what did you find?
What we found were a number of Small items that the archaeologists couldn't identify.
They had the appearance of something natural, but they couldn't identify them, and they never could.
But their final conclusion was, well, they must be something, but we just can't identify them.
We also found the rubber sole of a military boot.
Probably one of those who had been conducting the original search, right?
Okay.
Listen, Tom, hold tight.
We're at the top of the hour.
Tom Carey is my guest.
Subject is Roswell, and there certainly is lots of breaking news associated with it.
When we come back, we're going to open the phone lines, so those of you that know the numbers and have a question, and I can't imagine you wouldn't have one, you can dial now.
We'll be right back.
Here I am.
My guest is Tom Carey.
That's T-H-O-M, by the way.
Tom Carey, C-A-R-E-Y.
His book is Unmasking The 60-year cover-up.
And it's only out now, a very short time.
Amazon.com, all the usual places.
The affidavit that I read is in the book, as is so very much more about Roswell.
So, if it's in your gray baskets, as a friend of ours would say, and you want to pull it out or decide for yourself, This would be your opportunity.
Pick up that book, do the read, and figure it out for yourself.
We'll be right back.
Alright, Tom, in a moment we're going to go to the phones.
However, who is Major Patrick Saunders?
Major Patrick Saunders was the 509th, the Roswell Base adjutant to Colonel Blanchard.
And he died in 1995, but before he died, he bought up a bunch of copies of Randall and Schmitt's second book, The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell.
Yes.
I'm sorry, what year was it he died?
Nineteen ninety-five.
Ninety-five?
I thought you said forty-five.
I'm sorry.
Okay, go ahead.
Nineteen ninety-five.
So, right before he died, he bought up a bunch of copies of the second Randall and Schmidt book.
The first page inside the book was a page entitled Damage Control, and it told about what the authors believed Uh, the, uh, happened to the records.
They were vacuumed.
Serial numbers were changed so that the people looking in the future couldn't really track down anybody and records were, were destroyed.
Uh, above this, uh, heading damage control, which, uh, was on the first page inside Patrick Saunders wrote in, uh, hand wrote, Here's the truth, and I still haven't told anybody anything!
This is right before he passed away.
Really?
And we thought at the time, well, he just must be talking about the book in general.
Well, after the key witness in the book imploded, that would be Frank Coffman, one of the main witnesses in this book.
We caught him in a number of fabrications.
We started thinking, well, I did right away.
You know, I thought, well, geez, what could he have been talking about?
So I looked at that page again, and the closeness of his handwritten note to the damage control paragraph, I had an epiphany at that point that this is what he was talking about, not the book in general.
But what followed in that paragraph?
Which was?
Which was that he basically had been in charge of covering the trail.
Covering the paper trail was already in place at Roswell back in 1947.
There would have been a lot of cleanup, you know, paperwork-wise, people-wise, it would have been a hell of a job.
Yes, but a few months ago I received an email from Kevin Randall, one of the co-authors of the book, and he had come to, independently, come to the same epiphany.
And so We compared notes, and we both agreed that that's what Patrick Saunders was talking about, is that he was the one who initiated the vacuuming of the files, the covering the paper trail.
And if you remember, Art, the Government Accounting Office in 1993 and 1994, when they were looking for a paper trail, they found out that it was inexplicably There was none.
The papers out of Roswell were inexplicably destroyed without apparent authority.
You recall a congressman looking very, very hard for that information and coming up empty.
Empty.
And now we know from Patrick Saunders that the vacuuming, the destruction of the paper trail, not that he did it all, But it started with him.
Gotcha.
All right.
That's in our book.
All right.
And a lot more.
All right, here we go.
John in Houston, Texas.
You're on with Tom.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
I'm proud to be talking with you.
Thank you.
Enjoy your show all these years, Mr. Carey.
Thank you for your work.
My father was the flight operations officer that night, and he was the flight operations officer on the plane that Mr. Marcel flew out of there, and I wondered if you had talked with him.
I know Mr. Schmidt and Mr. Randall have interviewed him for their other books.
Do you mean Bob Shirky?
Yes, that's my dad.
Oh, yes.
Well, hello!
Hi there!
Yes, we talk to Bob as often as we can.
I understand he's in an assisted care facility now?
That's correct, yes.
He's had some health problems, and he's not going to make it to Roswell this year, and he's sad about that.
hoping he gets better but he's a great guy.
Great guy. We've talked to him often and his story is... I'll tell you what, why don't we ask
since we got his son on the line, why don't we ask what your dad told you?
Well he didn't talk about it. He was like all those other fellas. Nobody talked
until 1989 and all of a sudden it broke.
I was watching television one night and saw my dad on TV and I went, my God, and I called him and I said, what in the world is this?
And he laid it out to me and told me he had stood with Colonel Blanchard.
Watch them load the wreckage and told me what it looked like and said it was nothing none of them had ever seen before.
My dad was a pilot.
He just happened to be the operations officer that night.
They all traded jobs so everybody would know each other's job, you know.
And he was a pilot.
Do you remember his exact words when he described what he saw?
He just told me he saw pieces of It looked like metal beams, and it had strange writing on it, and none of them knew what it was, and it wasn't hieroglyphics, and it wasn't anything that any of them had ever seen before.
And Glenn Dennis, the man that sent the caskets to the funeral home, I've known him all my life.
I was born in Roswell in 1949, and my family, we knew Glenn Dennis.
He took care of the funerals for my grandparents and a lot of my relatives, and Walter Haught lived around the corner from my aunt and uncle.
I've known those men all my life, and they were just stand-up guys, and they didn't all get together in a coffee shop one afternoon to say, hey, let's make a story.
Yeah, I hear you.
So when you heard this affidavit of Walter Haut, it rang true to you?
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
He was a stand-up guy.
I mean, none of those men, like I said, none of those men were even talking.
They never talked about this.
Nobody ever said a word about this until Till, I guess, Stanton Freeman and those fellas, Mr. Rown, Mr. Smith, went out and they all started looking into it.
And the dam broke, and then everybody else started coming out with their stories.
Is there anything your dad told you you haven't made public?
He told me pretty much what Walter Haw had said.
Walter and my dad were friends, good friends, and Walter had told my dad about the bodies and about what he had seen.
And my dad told me about that.
Wow.
So I've known that since 1989.
Your dad was, now let me get this straight, your dad was a witness to the same thing that Walter Hout was?
No, he didn't ever say he saw the bodies.
He just saw the material being loaded onto the B-29.
Okay.
But Walter had talked to my dad and told him about the bodies and about the other things.
There were a lot of people that kept it all pretty close to the vest.
Nobody wanted to get in trouble.
They were all very strict military men.
They lived up to their oath of silence.
They didn't want to mess it up.
They were stand-up guys.
It'll do a little homework.
I know I have some friends that think I'm just...
They just go, OK, great, you know, and I go, OK, well, do a little research.
They were men of America's greatest generation.
Yeah, I was going to say, it's a very different generation right now.
Well, there's just so many people.
I have the same name as my father.
I'm a junior.
So after this broke, I was getting phone calls from all over the place.
And I finally just had to get an answering machine.
Is your father in Houston now?
No, no, he's in a he's on.
Assisted living outside Las Vegas.
Oh, New Mexico?
No, in Lunavata.
Okay, because I tried to find him when I heard that he was in Assisted that I called all around.
Well, if you'll take me off the air, I'll be glad to give you his number.
All right, why don't we do this.
Tom, you want to provide, do you have an email address, Tom?
Yes, you can reach me at T Carey, that's T C A R E Y.
Followed by the numerals 1-9-4-7 at AOL.com.
Did you get that, caller?
Yes, I'm writing it down right now.
Alright, that's T Carey, T-C-A-R-E-Y 1-9-4-7 at AOL.com.
Okay.
Alright?
I've got it.
It'll be tomorrow.
Yeah, okay, fine.
Let's keep that private.
John, thank you so very much.
Well, thank you for all your work, and you too, Mr. Carey, and keep it up.
My pleasure.
Nice talking to you.
Nice to talk to you, please.
Thank you, sir.
Wow.
All right.
To Carol in Claremont, California.
You're on with Tom.
Well, I'll try my best, sir, but I want to say my jaw is on my chest after what I've been hearing.
Yeah.
I am so dramatically shocked to be kind of even a fringe player on this evening.
I can hardly believe my fortune.
And I want to thank you all.
I have in my possession a clip from the 1890s from a newspaper in Michigan where one of my father's grandfather's employees saw a UFO over a railroad.
So I've sort of been a lifelong interest person here.
I want to also give you quick information.
On my internet I was able to find out Art McQuitty.
You referenced him earlier and you didn't know if he was the KSWS or... Yeah, apparently he was the dispatch, right?
Yes, indeed.
But I'm very curious and I'm puzzled about the heavy-handed tactics that apparently, according to a lot of documentaries I've seen, tactics used verbally threats something as melodramatic as actually taking a truncheon.
Is that the right word?
Yes.
And pounding it in a palm and saying, you don't remember any of this, this didn't happen, you didn't see thus and so.
What do you know of this?
Well, in our book, we bring out some of the heavy, as you call them, heavy-handed tactics that our Air Force used to silence witnesses.
One thing that wasn't previously known was that They turned the homes of the ranchers up in Corona upside down and inside out looking for pieces of debris that they thought they had taken from the site.
They ripped up floorboards, they cut into meal sacks that they use to feed the cattle.
They just turned that place upside down.
As far as threatening witnesses, they specialized in threatening the witnesses Uh, civilian witnesses that had seen the bodies.
And, uh, what they would do is they would, uh, if it was, uh, you know, a, uh, a child and a fat and parents, they would take the child into one room and say, we're going to kill your parents.
And they would take the parents to another room saying, we're going to kill your child.
Just, uh, just awful stuff.
And, uh, that shows you how serious this was.
That they would threaten civilians with death to keep quiet.
Now what they did was that they employed the sheriff of Roswell, George Wilcox, to deliver the message to civilians.
Not all civilians, but most of the civilians.
The surviving Wilcox family said that the Roswell incident destroyed him, that he never ran for sheriff again.
And we suspect that they forced him to deliver these messages to threaten people with their lives that really... Have you actually had a witness say that they were so threatened?
Oh, yes.
Yes.
By him?
Yes.
The Anaya brothers and Pete Anaya's wife Recall vividly when Wilcox came around, the Anaya brothers had, they were friends of Lieutenant Governor Joseph Little Joe Montoya at the time, and Montoya had seen the bodies in the hangar, and it really just shook him up, and he had the Anayas pick him up over at the base, and he told them the whole story, and a few days later,
Sheriff Wilcox came calling, and shortly after that, they brought in Senator Dennis Chavez to speak to the Anaya brothers.
Never to speak about this, or else, as Pete tells it, he said, the FBI will get you.
So, they used Senator Chavez, they used Sheriff Wilcox.
The majority owner of the radio station KGFL escorted Brazel around to the media when they had him change his story.
So, with Walt Whitmore, they threatened him with loss of his FCC license.
So, that's how they got to the civilians.
Because, as you know, the military has no direct authority over civilians unless it's a time of martial law.
That's right.
Alright, Greg in Cape Cod, Massachusetts.
Hi there, you're on with Tom Carey.
Hi, Art and Tom, this is Greg from Cape Cod.
How are you doing?
Hi, Greg.
I thought you guys would be interested in this might be reopened now.
Do you remember that special they did on either the Discovery Channel or TLC where they had General Ramey holding Those papers in his hands right in front of the weather balloon lie, but that guy, I can't recall his name, with the computer, you know, enhanced that and blew it up, and we could actually read what was on the paper.
That's right, yes.
What was really going on.
Yes, that was David Rudiak did the most work on that.
Uh-huh.
And, uh, but it's, it's a great story because, uh, Who would have thought that the architect of the Roswell cover-up, General Ramey, would provide one of the keys to unlocking the case?
Because we now have computer programs that can enhance the memo that he was holding.
No, he certainly could not have imagined that then.
Exactly.
That's more proof, Art, and I agree with you that this is the Holy Grail, this guy's deathbed letter.
That's just one more piece of the puzzle to confirm it.
It's hard to refute because we know it's provenance.
It's not something that you can trace back to a UFO investigator with an agenda.
It's something held by General Ramey himself.
And I know when I first looked at it, I got a copy of it and I looked at it and I didn't know what it was going to say.
I thought it might have something to do with the Water condenser at Fort Worth was not working.
Who knew what it was going to say, but the words victims of the wreck just jumped right out at me.
What sort of weather balloon has victims?
I thought that was fascinating.
It becomes more fascinating now with this new news.
It certainly does.
It seems to me, in fact, as just me, But it cinched it for me, Greg.
What I heard tonight, what I read tonight just completely cinched it for me.
That's all there is to it.
It seems to me it's so cinched that somebody in charge, somebody in power, is going to have to respond to what's been on the air tonight.
They have to.
There's no doubt about it.
And if they don't, Then, I don't know what word to think of our own government.
Exactly.
It's time.
It's time and past time.
All right, buddy.
Thank you very, very much for the call.
Take care.
Tom, we're up at a break, so stand by and we'll be back.
If you have a relevant question for Tom Carey, who's written a book called Unmasking the 60-Year Cover-Up, how timely can it get?
Come on ahead.
I'm White Bell.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
What a ride, huh?
If programs get bigger than this, I don't know how.
Tom Carey is my guest.
His book is Unmasking the 60-Year Cover-Up.
We'll be right back.
All right, Tom, is there anything in the program thus far tonight that has been a lot, probably too much from your point of view, that we have not aired that we should?
Oh, could I just make one small correction?
The full title of the book is Witness to Roswell Unmasking the 60-Year Cover-Up.
I'm sorry, it wasn't here.
Okay.
Witness to Roswell.
Well, that'll help people in looking it up.
Witness to Roswell Unmasking the 60-Year Cover-Up.
That's quite a correction, all right.
Thank you.
But aside from that, Tom, anything else that we should be getting on the air tonight that you wanted to get on that we haven't?
The reason we wrote the book, Art, was to put out most of the, not most, but many new witnesses to the case.
Everybody knows the original witnesses, but we've been uncovering, prying loose, whatever you want to term it, new witnesses since we teamed up in 1998
and we want to give them a voice we wanted to tell their story in their own
words it's not our interpretation of what they said so
that was the purpose in writing the book to get their their stories out. Okay so people can read the
witness testimony and decide for themselves
yeah alright all the way over to the United Kingdom on the international line
Michelle you're on with Tom hello Art, this is Oscar Art
no it isn't and it's I don't know how that got screened
I have no idea how that got screened.
Diane and Dallas, you're on with Tom.
Oh, hi, Tom and Art.
Art, I just got to tell you, I'm a long-time listener for about 10 years, and I really appreciate you and George and Ian.
And I wanted to tell you that whenever you received your Lifelong Achievement Award, I downloaded the picture of you three fellows and put you up on my little personal shrine of my greatest, best teachers in the world.
Thank you, Diane.
I thank you.
Okay, do you have a question for Don?
Well, I do.
I missed a little bit of the show earlier, and whenever you started talking about the preacher, I wanted to ask you if you've been able to get contact with his son, who is living in Richardson, Texas, and I wanted to ask you if this is the same preacher, because... I'm not sure who you're talking... Tom, do you know who she's talking about?
I do not know who she's talking about.
Alrighty.
Well, let me just tell you very quickly, I just recently, the past couple of years, I connected with a high school friend of mine who we were very close and we're still close today, and he told me he had a neighbor who was the son of a preacher who was asked to come out and pray over the bodies at Roswell.
And he told me that his father, he's a minister now himself, and he's in his 60s, And his father has since passed away.
And really, that's all I know, except that they had told the story about how another rancher or farmer was showing the preacher, and I'm not sure about the son being there, but this is the story that he told my dear friend, was that his rancher neighbor had a piece of the material and showed it to him and was willing to give him a piece, except he said he couldn't cut it.
But they demonstrated how they could farm it into a cone, put fire underneath it, and water in the cone.
And of course, the water was never affected.
It didn't warm up, heat up, or anything.
Wow.
And of course, they just couldn't cut any of it off.
Tom?
Are you a Roswell preacher?
Yes, sir.
You know, this is interesting because... And I'd love to give you, my friends, Well, listen, don't do it here.
Do you have the email address that we gave out?
Yes, I do, and I'll do that.
I'll contact you by email.
This is interesting, Art, because I was looking for a preacher.
We got a story of a Roswell preacher, just like she says, that had been called out to, you know, pray over the last rites, whatever Whatever was required, but I never could locate him.
I finally gave up when I did locate him.
He had passed away and he's buried in Roswell.
Maybe you've got a new lead now.
This appears to be the same Not the same preacher, but I would certainly love the contact information to follow up on this.
My guess is it's on the way.
James in Lincoln, Nebraska, you're on with Tom Carey.
Hey, I appreciate that.
It's been a wonderful story so far.
My questions for you are about the broader implications of what was happening in 1947 and things like Operation Paperclip.
With the Nazi scientists coming over.
Yes.
The Admiral Byrd's expedition to the South Pole, where they had the UFO bases, or the U-boat bases, secret bases.
Was there a secret war going on at this time?
And what, you know, was Roswell kind of at a center of that, you know, based on, well, this was where the bomber wing that dropped the atomic bombs in the end of
World War II.
I'm just kind of wondering, with this piece of the puzzle coming in,
it's starting to make a lot of those other questions a lot more important.
Any comments?
Well, I'm not sure about a secret war, but certainly New Mexico was the hub of military activity in 1947.
We had the White Sands Proving Grounds west of Roswell, where the captured German V-2 rockets were being tested.
We had the development of the atomic bomb in New Mexico with the first detonation in 1945 at Trinity Site.
Had Los Alamos there, a number of air bases, and the only Atomic bomb strike force in the world was stationed at Roswell, so we don't like to speculate, but if I'm flying through the universe and would want to pick a place to visit on Earth in 1947, it might be New Mexico.
And certainly Operation Paperclip, the captured German scientists were housed at Fort Bliss In El Paso, Texas at the time, headed up by Werner Von Braun.
And we did get a lead from a woman in Georgia a few years ago.
She had a college roommate in 1964, whose father was one of the paperclip Germans.
And she told the story that her father told her that he saw the Roswell aliens.
And this is in 1964 or earlier.
From the Roswell crash.
Unfortunately, we've never been able to find the roommate of our source.
You know, it's always made sense to me, Tom, that if there are others out there, and I am convinced there are, our detonation of a nuclear weapon above ground would, beyond anything else, Yeah, it'd be a beacon, alright, saying this civilization has just reached a certain level.
I don't know how they'd regard that level, but it would be like a beacon in the night.
And who knows, maybe it brought that visit.
David in Sherman Oaks, California, you're on the air with Tom Carey.
Hello Tom, hello gentlemen.
Hi.
How are you?
Very, very good.
I was listening to your story this morning, and I've followed the Roswell incident for many years, and it seems like the water's really muddy on this case here.
You get so many different conflicting reports about what they look like, what the craft is, how many craft there were.
I mean, I've got everything from an E.T.
looking for the one in the movie, E.T., Steven Spielberg, looking like that, all the way from children-like, So it's really hard to figure out what's going on, but I worked on a stealth fighter, F-117A project, if you're familiar with that at all.
Yes.
Was it the Nighthawk?
The F-117, stealth bomber.
Yeah, that's correct.
Yeah, it was built in South Africa.
Are you talking about the bomber or the fighter?
The fighter, the fighter.
The fighter, 117, okay.
The one that has the irregular-shaped edges and stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
Triangular-shaped.
Well, it had irregular shape in order to deflect radar as well as the composite materials.
Anyway, go ahead, Collar.
Yeah, okay.
Well, I worked on that project and it was called Have Blue when we first started it.
As you know, the word blue is connected to UFO investigation and reverse engineering projects.
So, when we were first told that this thing that we're developing is similar to something that was reversed engineered, okay?
Now, this aircraft was made of all composite materials.
And the outer skin portion, before we put the special paint on it, was made out of a material precisely exactly what you described is a foil.
It's a plastic foil.
You want it up in your hand.
As soon as you open up your hand, it turns completely flat.
And guess what?
The military spec, the MLS spec, is this.
Won't burn, tear, or fuse.
which means you can't carry you can't burn it or anything incredibly strong and durable edit exactly
when i hear this ross went to the best on hold for their hand they could
ended up a crew up and and and that it it's precisely like a mature reason f one seventeen a
and uh...
looking at that uh...
it's it's it's bizarre how how much of a question that is and the number two here
i have on talk to people you know being around the project and stuff
and ask them about uh... you'll post up at their talking about your for
reconnaissance and even if they'll fire actually get close to your book to get
pictures of the You know, it's radar-absorbent and reflective.
And they said that we actually have some hybrid beings in some facilities that help with technology, and I found it completely bizarre.
When I first heard that.
But here, you want the smoking gun on UFOs?
I really, and Art Bell, he's so passionate about this UFO thing that I'll really give it to you right now.
Okay?
UFO research, basically most UFOs globally admit have an orange orb to them.
They're like a glowing orange light, okay?
They look like a glowing orb, an orb, basically.
Okay, when most people see these devices, most of them will land in Now, the government came to this conclusion and said, okay, the first people who's going to be on scene at any UFO, when UFO lands, a lot of the time they're having a problem.
They just don't land and become visible to people.
There's something wrong.
The UFO lands and people see it, there's something wrong with the craft.
So, the government said, okay, who's going to be the first on scene?
Is it going to be the police officers?
No.
It's going to be the fire department.
Why?
Because when a UFO lands and it's flickering orange, it looks like a fire.
Okay, people when they see a flickering orange something in the bushes, they go, oh my god, there's a fire.
They call the fire department.
So the fire department is on the scene first.
So guess what?
Here's your smoky good.
Every single fire department in the United States of America has an instruction manual.
And guess what's in that manual on one of the pages?
How to deal with craft UFOs, extraterrestrial craft.
is inside of every fire department in the United States.
You can get a photocopy of that, go to any fire department, they have it in there.
What to deal with an extraterrestrial craft.
Now if they don't exist, what's that doing in every fire department in the United States?
Do you know the designation of that manual?
It's a standard operating procedure manual that every fire department has and it only has maybe about three or four hundred pages and you could look in it, talk to any fireman, go through it and it will say Right there, it says how to deal with... Alright, David, we'll take it from there.
We'll certainly verify that or knock it down, but that's very interesting.
Have you heard that, Tom?
Yes, I've heard the part about the manual.
I used to know the name, but I can't recall it right now.
He makes a good point.
It would be regarded probably as a fire, flickering orange.
And so they might be the first responders.
Interesting that would be in the manual.
Yes.
I did see that.
I don't recall what the manual's called.
I think it has some sort of acronym.
I'm sure it does.
But he is right about that.
Okay.
Ed in Allentown, Pennsylvania.
You're on with Tom Carey.
Good morning, Art.
Good morning, Tom.
My name's Ed.
Fantastic show tonight.
Thank you for the show.
A comment, a brief comment, and a question, please.
I don't know if either of you had watched during the 50th anniversary of Roswell on Good Morning America.
Joan London was interviewing the general who had the press conference for the Case Closed book.
He was a many decorated... Oh, Richard Weaver or... I don't know.
He had a bunch of decorations on his lapel.
A lot of fruit salad and she was interviewing him.
And he was telling her about how the dummies were found on Roswell, and that the locals mistook the dummies for being aliens.
And, you know, Joan London even looked at him and said, but excuse me, General, the dummies were part of the alleged Project Mogul, which took place in 1954, and Roswell was in 1947.
And with a straight face, this general looked at her and he said, Well, you know those old people, they get 1947 and 1954 confused.
He said this on national television and I taped it at the time.
A lot of the media was like belittling the people that were celebrating the 50th anniversary.
Yes, they were.
I'm going to watch it for it again.
My question is, I don't know if you've ever interviewed one of the daughters of one of the firemen that was a guest at the time in the media.
It said that they were roughhoused by the MP that were on the scene.
Frankie Rowe, yes.
Okay, I didn't know her name, but I thought... Is she included in your book?
Because her story was pretty compelling.
She's only included her pictures in there, too, that I took.
Okay, great.
And if you can get a copy of that Good Morning America episode, it was pretty shocking.
And Joan Lunden got fired shortly afterwards.
I don't know if it was related, but it was pretty shocking the way it appeared.
Because it was kind of stunted.
They went to a commercial immediately.
The notion that you can mix up decades, something that took place in the 1940s with something that took place in the mid 1950s, it just is laughable on its face.
Because what people do Is they remember things by what grade in school they were, what songs were popular, where they lived, and that's how they do it.
At least that's how I do it.
And I may mix up a year or part of a year, but not a decade.
Not a decade.
I'm with you.
Songs are used for that.
IDing decades.
David in Mesa, Arizona, you're on with Tom Carrey.
A pleasure.
I have a question for Tom, but I want to first say I'm a longtime listener since Richard C. Hoagland told you about what was going on with weather experimentation in Alaska.
I'm a 30-year veteran of the United States Air Force and here in America.
Yes, sir.
And I want to ask your guest, Tom, why he thinks that it's taken so long Well, it's still not out.
I mean, it's not out officially.
Why has it taken so long to begin to break in the way it is tonight?
I don't have that answer.
I mean, this information has been out there for a while now.
experiment took place. Yes, well it's still not out. I mean it's not out
officially. Why has it taken so long to begin to break in the way it is tonight?
I don't have that answer. I mean this information has been out there for a
while now. It's just one of those things where the media, I don't know what they do.
They sit on something until some magical switch gets thrown.
And Tom, you can be proud to have been part of throwing that switch.
Yes, the herd mentality.
They're looking for someone to go first, I guess.
As far as the case, Taking so long as that, you know, investigators, civilian investigators did not get on the case until 1978.
Well, Tom, you've done, listen, we're at the end of the program, my friend.
You have done an incredible job.
This is going to go down as a completely classic program, and Tom, we'll have you back again, you can be sure of that.
Wonderful job, and all I can say is keep it up, and good luck with the book, but you won't need it.
It'll sell like hotcakes.
Art, it's been my distinct pleasure to be on with you tonight.
Take care, my friend, and good night.
And for the rest of you, we'll rest for 24 and see you then.
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