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Sept. 24, 2006 - Art Bell
02:35:30
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Jon Klimo - The Afterlife and Suicide
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From the Southeast Asian capital city of the Philippine Islands, the Philippine nation, 7,107 pearl-like islands nestled in the Pacific, Manila, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
This is Art Bell, and of course, this is the largest program of its kind in the world.
It's called Coast to Coast AM.
It is my honor, my privilege to be escorting you through the weekend.
Now, once again, this evening I've yet posted another picture of Aaron and myself in Hong Kong.
That's in Hong Kong.
The photograph yesterday was taken up on Victoria Peak in Hong Kong on a pretty good day, actually.
Somebody said, well, kind of misty.
Yes, but for Victoria Peak that was actually a pretty good day, day after rain in Hong Kong, and a couple of weeks ago.
So that picture's about two weeks old now.
I would like once again, if I could, to call attention to this horrid little letter, this hoax letter that was actually done many years ago by somebody who wrote it at the University of San Diego campus and went to the library there and sent it out in my name, degrading the Filipino people.
And that was many years ago.
Now, of course, that I've moved to the Philippines, somebody's taken it on themselves to recirculate this letter.
Not that it ever really stopped circulating.
I've been answering those for, oh God, actually years now.
To be honest with you, years.
But now they're recirculating it, which is something of a bit of a dangerous situation for me.
Here I'm getting death threats and that sort of thing.
And here they actually do dispose of journalists on a somewhat regular basis.
So while actually keeping a very low profile here in the Philippines, I certainly don't need that letter going around.
So we've got a little link.
On top of the website, or near the top of the website, that covers the specifics of the letter, an awful, hateful letter written against the Philippine people, and I guess that was done because at the time I was married to Ramona, as you know, and she was half Filipino, and so I guess they decided it would be a good thing to do, or it was coincidental, but I think not.
At any rate, if you would be so kind as to read the specifics, if you get an opportunity and pass it along to your friends that it certainly was not me that wrote that, I would be very appreciative, just for the safety of myself and my wife.
Now, let's take a look at the world news.
Never all that pleasant.
A woman accused of killing a pregnant woman and her fetus told police that she drowned the woman's three young children, stuffed them into a washer and dryer at their apartment.
Preliminary autopsies on the dead children Sunday appeared to show they were indeed drowned.
Wallace Hart, a deputy St.
Clair coroner, told the Associated Press, God, that's just awful.
Is there no depth to which people will plunge?
No end to it.
Democrats on Sunday seized on an intelligence assessment that said that the Iraq War actually has increased the terrorist threat, saying that it was further evidence that Americans should choose new leadership in the November elections.
The Democrats hoped the report would undermine the GOP's image.
As the party more capable of handling terrorism as the campaign enters its final six-week stretch.
And then there was quite a Fox incident, I guess.
In a combative interview on Fox News Sunday, former President Clinton actively defended his handling of the threat posed by Osama bin Laden.
A lot has been said about that.
He said he'd tried to have bin Laden killed.
And was attacked for his efforts by the very same people who now criticize him for not doing enough.
That's the difference in me and some.
Including all the right-wingers who are attacking me now.
Clinton said in the interview they ridiculed me for trying.
I had eight months to try.
They did not try.
Iraq's feuding ethnic and sectarian groups agreed on Sunday to consider amending the Constitution and begin debating legislation to create a federated nation.
Wow!
While the Shiite Prime Minister appealed for an end to violence during Ramadan, despite the plea for peace, violence killed at least 20 Iraqis, wounded 37 a day before the official start of the Muslim holy month.
That would seem to me to be sort of caving in to the notion of civil war, or the possibility of civil war, when you talk about autonomous regions being governed within what was one country.
You're sort of caving in to the possibility of civil war, trying to prevent it, I suppose.
Anybody who believes that Nancy Grace was chastened in some manner by the suicide of a young mother following their tough television encounter doesn't know much about Nancy Grace, I guess.
The primetime prosecutor continues to focus nearly full-time on Melinda Duckett, piling up evidence to point to the Florida woman's guilt in the disappearance of her two-year-old son, Trenton, with all the support of her bosses at CNN Headline News.
Tampa Bay's quarterback Chris Sims has had his spleen removed.
My goodness, spleen.
After taking several hard hits on Sunday's 26-24 loss to the Carolina Panthers.
See, I just ruined the game for myself.
And was resting comfortably in a hospital.
Chris is doing well and we anticipate a full recovery, said the team physician in a brief statement.
So, if you're an NFL quarterback, Look out, it can cost you your spleen.
Oh, by the way...
By the way, in a moment, by popular demand, I didn't get an opportunity to play it until the very last hour of the
program last night.
And there is this very, very, very funny little ditty called Tequila.
And so I know a lot of you didn't get an opportunity to hear it.
I got about a million emails asking me to repeat it.
So when we get back from break in a moment, I shall do so.
Tequila We will indeed be doing open lines here shortly.
So anybody who already knows the phone numbers, and I'm sure many of you have them written down and or memorized
after all of these years, you're welcome to begin calling and we'll line you up.
A woman called the Emergency Poison Center very upset because she caught her little daughter eating ants.
She was quickly reassured ants are not harmful.
No need to bring her daughter to the hospital.
She calmed down.
And then, sort of as a little addendum at the very end of the conversation, happened to mention that she'd given her daughters an ant poison.
Ant poison to eat in order to kill the ants.
She said they told her to get her daughter into the hospital right away.
And this true story out of San Francisco, a man wanting to rob a bank, a downtown bank of America, walked into the branch and wrote This is a stick-up.
All small, no capitals.
This is, I-Z, a stick-up.
S-T-I-K-K-U-P.
Stick-up.
Put all your money, M-U-N-Y, in this bag.
There he was, standing in line, waiting to give his note to the teller.
He began to worry that somebody might have seen him write the note, might call the police before he could get to the teller's window.
He walked out of the Bank of America, crossed the street to Wells Fargo, after waiting a few minutes in line, handed the same note to the Wells Fargo teller.
She read it, surmising from the spelling that, well, he just wasn't the brightest bulb in the harbor.
Told him she couldn't accept a stick-up note because it was written on a Bank of America deposit slip and that he'd either have to go fill out a Wells Fargo deposit slip or go back to the Bank of America looking somewhat defeated.
The man said okay and just simply left.
Now this is an interesting story, I really think it is.
It relates to what we've been talking about when we talk about shadow people or shadow beings.
You're walking down an empty street alone.
Suddenly you have the eerie feeling that someone's following you.
Is it your mind playing tricks on you?
Well, perhaps so.
According to a new study, when a specific region of the brain called the left temporal Junction TPJ is stimulated in some way.
It can create an illusion of a shadow person.
Given that such experiences are often heightened in psychotic disorders, like schizophrenia and paranoia, and even in those who believe that they've been abducted by aliens, the results could lead to a better understanding of these neurological conditions.
The finding Emerged totally by accident.
Neurologist Ulf Blank of the Brain Mind Institute in Lucerne, Switzerland and his colleagues were attempting to identify the source of epileptic seizures in a 23-year-old woman.
They applied a mild current through surgically implanted electrodes to various regions of the brain.
Not much happened until The researchers stimulated the woman's left TPJ, located roughly above the left ear.
Suddenly, she reported feeling the presence of a mystery person behind her.
Emotionless, speechless shadow that imitated her body postures and action.
He, that's in quotes, lay beneath her when she lay down, sat beside her when she sat down, and attempted to take a test card from her when she tried to participate in a language exercise.
Such delusions are very similar to those seen in patients with schizophrenia, Uh, schizophrenics often mistake their own bodies to be someone else's, for example, and attribute their own actions to others.
So, they also have frequent illusions being followed or controlled by a stranger, as do those who claim to have been manipulated, of course, by aliens.
Speaking of which, the theory of extraterrestrial origin of life is not a well-defined single theory.
It is more of an adjunct or an extension of the belief that since random, unguided biological evolution on Earth is a fact, certainly the same forces would have resulted in life in other places in the universe.
Extraterrestrial life is never associated with the possibility that life perhaps could have been created elsewhere, if it could be created here on Earth.
If it could be verified that life existed elsewhere in the universe, it would be presented as proof of biological evolution.
The argument could not be farther from the truth, although it is true that If life could evolve on Earth, it certainly could evolve in other places if the conditions were correct.
However, it is equally true that if life could be created on Earth, it could be created elsewhere also.
In fact, if the creative force was powerful enough to produce life, it would be powerful enough to create the proper environment in which to place the created life, the theory of the Origin of extraterrestrial life only moves the evolution creation debate to a remote location Now I think most of you Are familiar aren't you with cosmic ray bursts?
They've been a fairly recent discovery in the galaxy however There was one so severe, back on February 18th, that had it occurred anywhere near our galaxy, all life on Earth would have ended last February 18th.
I don't know if you knew that or not.
I recall at the time I did report on that.
But there it is in black and white.
NASA's Compton Gamma Ray Observatory says, Had the star that produced this been anywhere near us, all life on Earth on February 18th would have ended.
But of course it did not.
That doesn't mean that it could not happen.
The Chinese people Leave it to the Chinese.
Have decided that it is better to let a computer decide if a criminal should be executed or not.
The new software, patched into a legal database, is being used by judges on 100 different crimes, including robbery, rape, By tapping into details of the crime and if there are any mitigating circumstances, the penalty calculator provides a recommended sentence including those punishable by death.
The software was designed as a method of dealing with corrupt judges and has been trailed in 1,500 cases now.
And it looks like it will be used in courts all across the Chinese landscape.
Software designer Quinn Yeh has been working on the program since 2003.
And helped by Shandong legal officials, has loaded it with a huge database of Chinese law and case precedents.
On the plus side, it certainly will ensure standardized decisions on prison terms and avoid abuse of the discretionary power of judges as a result of the, well, corruption or perhaps insufficient legal training.
On the downside, The judges will not have to pay so much attention in drawn-out trials.
If the software is ever hacked, then it might, for example, be possible for a murderer to get a very light sentence, or a person who wears a loud shirt in a built-up area to be sentenced to death by firing squad.
China has the death penalty for 68 offenses.
You might like to know, including bigamy, stealing petrol, gasoline, wow, tax evasion, and computer hacking.
A death sentence for all of that.
Can you believe it?
Stealing gas?
Stealing gas?
They really do prize their gas in China, don't they?
All right, let's take a few calls, see what awaits.
West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
Hello.
Hello, Art.
Yes.
This is Chris from Sonoma.
Yes, Chris.
I called you last Sunday about the Kundalini.
Yes.
And I wanted to ask you if you would like a repeat of the experience that you had in Paris.
No.
Okay.
No.
I mean, I'm giving you an honest answer.
It was a wonderful experience, but I've had the opportunity, Chris, to repeat the experience because I've had the beginning of what is an out-of-body experience.
Being paralyzed, feeling the buzzing, this intense feeling, and I've always bailed out, Chris, at the last moment and stopped it from happening.
I understand that.
There's nothing wrong with being patient, taking your time with this.
Put another way I chickened out, buddy.
I'd like to also address some of the concerns that people out there who have kundalini coming up.
As it comes up the spine, it will expand the kidneys and it will also affect the adrenal glands.
This will hyper-stimulate the adrenal glands and it will put out a hormone that makes a person become very excited and delusional, kind of like someone who's on methamphetamine.
And I want them to, once again, keep the tongue to the roof of the mouth, behind the upper front teeth, drink lots of water, and eat a lot of watermelon.
This has a very calming effect on the kidneys.
So, do those things.
Keep your four fingertips and your thumb tips together.
And, you know, don't Go to the doctor and get put on JEPA coats.
That is not what you want to do.
All right, Chris.
Thank you.
We appreciate the instructional call.
And what can I say, Chris?
Have a good trip.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi.
Is that me?
That's you.
Hey.
All right.
Finally got through.
I wanted to tell you about a new potential source of energy, or energy production source, whatever, that could Not only get us away from oil, but also help clear up our radioactive wastes.
And what might that be?
Well, it's called a beta voltaic battery.
And you can Google it.
And there's, I think it was originally developed back in the mid 80s, but they're actually starting to use it commercially or develop it commercially for pacemakers and remote electronics, that sort of thing.
Say it again.
Beta voltaic.
Okay.
We're breaking the hour here, so I've got to scoot, but I definitely will Google it and see what's up.
We will continue with Open Lines following a brief break.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
and you can actually take solar cells and paint radioactive isotopes on it and then
they'll produce electricity.
But there are more and more efficient ways.
All right, well listen, we're breaking the hour here, so I've got to scoot, but I definitely
will Google it and see what's up.
We will continue with Open Lines following a brief break.
This is Coast to Coast AM, I'm Art Bell.
Indeed, I am too.
John Clemo, I guess it's Clemo at the top of the hour, and he's going to be talking about a subject that I'm very, very, very interested in.
It's what happens to you when you commit suicide.
However, he is a channeler.
Now, over the years, those of you who have listened to me for years know I'm very skeptical of channelers, not because I don't believe that channeling is possible, because certainly as any other I don't know.
An usual thing is possible.
Channeling is possible.
The problem I've always had with channeling is that it's also something that can be faked.
I mean, I could give you a pretty good example of channeling, you know?
I was Art Bell, now I'm three lifetimes ago Art Bell, my name is Harry and I want to tell you what's going on with the world.
You know, that kind of deal.
I mean, it could happen, right?
It could be faked.
So I've always had a little problem with channelers, not because I think channeling is not real, just because I think there's a, you know, a big potential for faking it.
Anyway, we'll discuss that and then certainly suicide with John It's going to be a very interesting program, no doubt about it.
That'll be coming up next hour.
In a moment we continue with Open Lines.
Were it not for love, what reason would there be to even exist?
Have you ever wondered about that?
Love really is, well, other than ham radio.
I mean, otherwise, what reason would there really be to exist in this world were it not for love?
Let's go to our first time caller line, and I think it's Daryl in North Dakota.
Hello there.
Hello, Mr. Bell.
Yes, sir.
Yes.
Thank you for indirectly keeping me alive.
Listening to your show has made a lot of miles disappear very quickly through the night.
And I'm doing this in order to talk to you and I just want to let you know that I'm going to pray for you for the situation you're in.
And like my mom always told me, this too shall pass.
It doesn't matter how bad something gets.
It will always get better, Mr. Bell.
All prayers gratefully accepted, my friend, and thank you for the comment on getting across the country.
I used to use talk radio the same way.
I mean, you can only stand music so long.
If you're driving from coast to coast, music is good for a while, and then it'll just give you a headache.
Whereas talk radio is the unwinding of a story.
And boy, I'll tell you what, that will put the miles behind you.
I mean, the time just disappears because your brain is involved in actively thinking about something instead of just, you know, tapping out a beat on the floor.
That only lasts so long.
So talk radio will indeed get you from one side of the country to the other quite safely.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
Good morning.
Hi, this is Eric at San Diego.
How's it going?
Pretty good, Eric.
Yeah, I have a Event that happened to me about two years ago was missing time.
And, um, well, how it goes is that I'm a graveyard security guard.
And at about one o'clock in the morning, I, uh, I, uh, finished my book.
So I go to my car to, uh, look for a new one.
I switched on the dome light and then all of a sudden, and all of a sudden the light goes out.
So I figured, okay, you know, the bulb just went out.
Then I go back to my shack.
And everything electrical is dead.
And then I figured, okay, the fuse blown.
No, there's nothing I can do about it.
So I'm sitting there reading, just reading my book.
And then about an hour later, my supervisor comes up and says, where you been?
I'm like, I've been here.
He's like bull.
I've been trying to get, I've been trying to get hold of you over the next hour.
So you had one full hour disappear, huh?
Yeah, I mean, I was in my car and then all of a sudden everyone went dead.
Well, security guards have always been grist for the monster mill.
And I suppose aliens can snap them up with impunity as well.
So I don't know what to tell you.
What do you think might have happened to you during that hour?
I don't know.
My supervisor came up and He looked around, never saw me, and then left again, still trying to get ahold of me through my next cell.
Did you keep your job?
Actually, no.
No?
You got fired?
Yes.
That's sad.
After a little investigation, because what I do is I log down inbound trucks that come into my site.
And during that time frame, they asked these truckers if they saw me, and they said no.
Well, are you sure that you might not have fallen asleep in your car?
Impossible, because I had just finished drinking an energy drink.
Well, yes, but you probably drank the energy drink because you were feeling drained and tired, right?
I mean, that's possible, but I wasn't feeling tired at all.
I just went into my car to grab a new book and then everything died.
Has any part of your body begun to glow recently in a weird way or anything else?
No, I mean, nothing has.
I mean, with me physically, nothing wrong, but I have been starting to hear things.
What kind of things?
Strange noises in the night, but that's with all graveyard security guards.
Well, gee, I hope you find another job, or perhaps you already have.
Well, I do.
I got hooked up with a different company.
Well, stay awake, buddy.
All right, thank you.
All right, see you later.
I don't know, you know, could have been that.
But it's a hell of an excuse, right?
Where were you when you're supposed to be counting trucks?
Well, I was abducted by aliens.
I have missing time, boss.
You see this mark on my arm?
I guess he didn't even really have that.
West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
Hello.
Hello, this is Mike from Victorville.
Yes.
And I had a question for those Swedish scientists that stimulated part of that lady's brain.
How come they didn't even consider the option of maybe she was actually seeing shadow people?
Well, I don't know.
The Swedish scientist is not here.
He's only on paper.
That was a story I read, sir.
I do have some comments about shadow people.
Yes?
I've been bothered by them all my life, and you guys have put the name to them.
But I just knew them as the powers that run men's lives.
Lately I've found out that they exist, they're inorganic beings who feed off our emotions.
And this is what everybody, why they're close to people, they're actually like huge lumps, very heavy.
Carlos Castaneda mentions them in his books.
Are you sure it's not the TPJ part of your brain over there on the left side?
I'm not too intuitive that way.
I've never seen one, but I feel them.
I wake up with sleep paralysis.
They're inorganic beings and they feed off our emotions.
Well, that may be, Mike.
It may be.
I have no way of knowing.
This is just sort of a stab in the dark, if you will.
Cute, huh?
Shadow people stab in the dark.
Anyway, it's a stab in the dark and just because science is able to recreate the feeling or the sensation of being followed or somebody there with you or somebody moving with you does not mean that it's not real.
It just means they can recreate that feeling as, for example, science has been able to duplicate with Mr. Bell, how are you my friend?
in the brain, the emotions and feelings that one has during an NDE as well.
Doesn't mean that NDE's are not real, it just means that scientists have found a
region of the brain where they can seem to activate that sort of thing.
A wildcard line, you're on the air, hello.
Mr. Bell, how are you my friend?
I am quite well, and yourself?
Oh, I'm happy as I can be, just checking out Orion tonight with my telescope, but this is truly an honor to speak with
you my friend.
I've wanted to speak with you forever, but anyway, I'll get right to the point.
The weather in the Midwest, in this part, I live near Chicago.
My family's lived here for over 150 years, and I've got detailed records that go back forever for almanacs.
We've had more rain this September than ever in history, and The last winter, the last summer, everything's changing.
Your perspective, what do you think is going on?
I know you made the movie and you helped put your input in there, but what is your gut feeling on what's going to happen the next year, please?
In the next year?
Yeah.
All right, all right.
The next year.
I think that in the next year, as in every successive year now for a long time, we're going to see a worsening of the weather.
And I think that what's happening is that our climate is warming up, our planet is warming up, and heat is the engine that drives storms, whether it would be rainstorms, Or hurricanes, or tornadoes, or other violent weather.
Heat is the devil behind all of it.
So what do I think is going to happen?
I think we're going to have an escalating, continuing violent season, after season, after season, after season, and it's going to be increasing.
Very quickly.
Now, how quickly and whether there's a tipping point and a trigger where it's really going to get bad, I don't have the answer to that.
There are a number of scientists who figure there is a trigger, a tipping point, a trigger point, when all of a sudden it could get much worse as in global superstorm, that sort of thing.
But that's what I think.
I think it's obviously warming up.
No question about that.
And that will contribute to more violence above us.
Let's go to the, let's see, first time caller line.
You are on the air.
Hi.
Hi, how are you doing tonight?
Very well, sir.
Whatever time it is in Manoa, that is.
It is currently about ten of two in the afternoon, buddy.
Oh, okay.
I might add, on Monday.
Oh, okay.
Well, I'm a listener of yours.
I got turned on to you, went back to when I was stationed at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, and we all used to work the night shift there, and we would listen to you every night.
And there was a couple of shows, or it was one show, I don't recall, that stuck in my head, and I deployed to Saudi Arabia, I believe, shortly after it, and I never got to hear how it turned out.
And so it's been killing me all these years.
There was a gentleman who was supposedly flying his private aircraft over Area 51, and he called your show to say, hey, you know, I'm tired of this secrecy.
I'm going in and we're going to find out what's here.
And I never found out what happened.
A hoax?
Or did we just never hear from him?
No, I would have no way of saying it was a hoax.
It could have been a hoax, but if so, it was a damn well done hoax.
And the last we heard, he had been shot down.
I mean, he was going down in flames the last we heard from him.
No kidding?
No kidding.
I guess you didn't get to hear the end of it.
Yeah, he was going down in flames.
I mean, that lasted a long time.
I tried to dissuade him from flying into an area where I knew damn well he'd get shot down.
Yeah, yeah, I seem to remember hearing something about being intercepted by fighters and seeing something coming up out of the ground.
Railgun, actually.
Yeah, right, right.
That's right.
No, he was going down in, more or less, in flames when we last heard from him, and we've not heard anything since.
So you can either chalk it up as a hoax or imagine him in pieces on the desert floor.
I guess we'll never really know then, will we?
No, no, we'll not.
Well, it was a pleasure to actually talk to you, Art.
I'm a big fan of yours, and George does a wonderful job as too, but there's only one Art Bell, so thank you for taking my call.
Thank you very much for making it.
And indeed, he does do a wonderful job of keeping it going during the week, and that is the great majority of the show.
I can tell you, having done it for years and years and decades, actually, five nights a week.
Actually, earlier than that, six nights a week.
I used to originally do the show five hours a night, six nights a week.
So I can tell you that it's quite a job.
Of course, it's a blast.
It's a lot of fun.
There's nothing in the world Like radio.
Nothing in the world like radio.
Wildcard Line, you are on the air.
Hi.
Hello, Art.
Hello.
This is Jesse.
Big Texas howdy.
I'm calling from the extreme southeast corner of Texas.
Yes, sir.
I emailed y'all a picture the other day of a 45-foot sea creature that I had a close encounter with, and y'all put it up on your website.
I just wanted to call up and tell you that, and maybe tell you about another experience I had a few years ago.
Well, I didn't see the 45-foot sea creature, unfortunately.
What was the encounter?
I mean, that's big.
Well, we was out in a small aluminum boat fishing in the middle of the night.
There's a different type of fish you catch at night, and that's what we prefer.
Well, we got out to the mouth of the river where it dumped into the Gulf of Mexico.
And it's a ship lane.
Well, it's real deep water and all kinds of fish.
Well, our motor quit and the tide was going out.
So in order for us to make it back in, we had to wait until the tide changed and would
drag us back up to shore.
Well, so we sat there and fished for three or four hours until the sun come up and we
could flag someone to maybe give us a tow into the boat ramp.
Well, we kept hearing this noise, sounded like a large fish turning over, you know,
hitting the top of the water and splashing.
And the sun came up, and we heard the noise again, and we looked over, and my goodness, there was the, I don't know what it was.
It was about, like I say, I took a picture of it, and it's on your website.
And I can only describe it as an eel-like creature.
Is it still on the website right now?
Yes, sir.
Okay, let me take a look.
And you can see its head sticking out.
It's belly up.
It's playing, and it's got its belly up, and you can see the end of its tail sticking out a ways.
There was no fins that I could make out, so apparently it was just a eel-like creature.
But 45 feet long?
You got the picture there.
Okay, now wait a minute.
Where on the website is it?
I'm looking.
I'm not sure.
I just pulled up your website earlier and the picture was there.
It's kind of a picture of open water and there's an arrow.
Okay, I've got it.
Yeah.
Now, I've enlarged the picture.
Let me see if I can... Okay, well, it's just sort of a black thing sticking out of the water from what I can see.
Can you see its tail way to the right?
Oh, my God, I do.
There you go.
That is... That's really big.
That's really big.
And you can take that from a Texas fisherman.
I know what big is.
Yeah, that's big, all right.
Good Lord.
Well, okay.
I appreciate the story, certainly, to go along with it.
I have another story, if I could, more on a ghost-type thing.
Very quickly.
Okay.
We was fishing down at the river bottoms one time, and we had parked our truck about 25 or 30 feet away from the water line, and we had set our pole down next to the water line.
And we had attached a little bell to the end so that if a fish bit on it, it would jingle, and we'd run out there and pull it in.
Of course.
Well, me and a friend of mine was sitting in the truck, and along about, I'd say probably 10 to 12, they had to be Indians, and these were ghosts, come walking down the river bank and walk right between us and our fishing poles.
And they were definitely Native Americans, and they weren't tangible.
I mean, you could almost see through them.
But you could see that they had the clothes on them, and a couple of them, there was no horses, but a couple of them was carrying what looked like children on their back.
Alright, I've got about 20 seconds here.
And one or two of them was pulling a load on sticks.
And after they passed, we got out and looked, and there was no tracks or anything, but boy, we got our stuff up and we got out of there.
All right, buddy.
Thank you for the call.
You obviously had an encounter with something.
And on that note, we'll take a break, and boy, when we get back.
I'm Art Bell.
John Clemo is my guest.
He's coming right up.
He has an undergraduate and graduate degree, both from Brown University and a doctorate in psychology.
So it's Dr. Clemo, actually.
He's been continuously teaching in doctoral programs for the past 32 years and is currently starting his seventh year as a core faculty member in the clinical program at San Francisco Bay Area Campus of the American Schools of Professional Psychology.
Hargisee University. As a lifelong multidisciplinary, he has done extensive research, writing, teaching, and
presentations in the area of creativity, intuition, imagination, parapsychology, consciousness studies, my
favorite, New Paradigm Thought and New Science.
Ufology.
Extraterrestrialology.
Now that's a new one on me.
Metaphysics and the Transpersonal Domain.
This year he co-authored with Pam Heath, Suicide.
What Really Happens in the Afterlife.
Channeled Messages from the Dead.
So, in a moment, John Clemo
Dr. Clemo, welcome to Coast to Coast AM.
Thank you for having me on.
Oh, it's a pleasure to have you on.
I'm going to have to be honest with you, though, Doctor, and I'm going to have to say, before we get into the whole question of suicide, and I'm really fascinated by it because I've been close myself.
I have always been skeptical, Doctor, of channeling.
And I'm very open-minded, and I'm not suggesting that channeling does not really occur.
It certainly could be every bit as real as any other area of the paranormal that I look into, and I look into almost all of it.
But I am a little skeptical of channeling, simply because of the obvious potential for fraud.
And so I'd like to talk to you a little bit about channeling, if we could first.
Tell me, give me your best shot, Doctor, if you could, about why you buy channeled material, why you buy into it.
Because I think a lot of it seems to represent about the best that we human beings have to To share with each other about wisdom, or guidance, or insight, or creativity, or imagination, or a larger view of the world, irrespective of whether we can irrefutably prove it's from the sources it claims to be from, or that a channel claims it to be from.
It's like putting a picture frame around content you get from somebody.
I mean, if I just say, I'm going to now tell you some opinions that I have, some experiences that I've had, It's unordained.
There's no frame around it.
It doesn't say it's channeled.
It doesn't say it's special.
It doesn't say it's from the collective unconscious, or from something outside of myself, or from my higher self.
And by just being just plain old me, we can identify with each other and say, well, that's just normal communication and normal sources we're getting our information from.
It's when someone says, this is channeled, The informational source that's available to the person, supposedly, says that I'm not you, or I'm from beyond you, or I'm a channel source, then we get into another realm.
And the jury stays out, as far as I'm concerned, as far as being able to prove that these sources are transcending the channel or the medium who's related to them.
In other words, I agree with you that it's a kind of a crapshoot.
It's a mixed bag.
I mean, I believe that some cases of channeling Or absolutely authentic as far as I've experienced them and been the case of them.
And there are cases where I have my kind of my crap detector kind of goes off and something kind of is wary in me that doesn't quite feel right.
I think that's somebody having their 15 minutes of fame or pretending or aspiring to transcend themselves, but it may not be transcending themselves.
It's very, very hard to tell in this sort of interdimensional subjective realm what's really, really going on.
Indeed.
Doctor, is there any way to delineate between the wheat and the chaff here?
In other words, is there, for example, are there any medical studies that show that people, or some channelers who claim to be channeling, are in some sort of different mental state during the time they're doing this?
Yes.
There is overlap with altered states of consciousness or consciousness research.
And the neurophysiology or neuroscience, the correlates that are associated with an altered state of consciousness.
For example, someone who is dissociating, which is the psychological term for splitting off part of yourself into an alter or sub-personality, which is one of the favorite explanations of mainstream psychology for what's happening with channeling, is that it's really a kind of a dissociation, maybe a functional kind of dissociation, meaning that you're not crazy and you're functional, But you do, it's like being an amnesiac ventriloquist.
You have this sort of part of you that splits off and doesn't know it's throwing its own voice through some other entity or being, but it's really just part of you, but you're disconnected from it.
The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
That's kind of a favorite explanation.
And so, if you do neurophysiological studies, EEG readings and so on, of someone who's clinically or naturally dissociating, and it's really part of their own unconscious, There seems to be a different signature, although not enough research has been really done on this, but this research that I've seen does seem to show that you get a different signature, a different brain signature, when the person claims to be sort of surrendering to something that's coming to or through them telepathically, clairaudiently, and so on.
Right, okay.
You co-authored this with another physician, Pam Heath.
In the case of the material that we're going to be discussing tonight, was this channeled by Pam Heath or yourself or both?
Neither.
This particular book... First of all, let me back up one step.
The book I wrote in 1988, called Channeling Investigations and Receiving Information from Paranormal Sources, with a new edition in 1998, is considered the definitive study of channeling.
And this book that I just did with her this year, in June, Suicide, was co-authored.
And it's really a scholarly study, primarily.
We looked at 120 years of published material, and some of it very small press or rarely published in print, from sources claiming to be people who had committed suicide or people from the spirit realm, spirits from the spirit realm, giving their insights into suicides and people on the other side who they're helping who committed suicide.
So it's all scholarly work, meaning we go through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of sources, boil it all down to the common themes, And then look and see what the commonalities are.
It's kind of, you could call it inductive research.
Now, we also supplemented that with a set of seances, where neither Sheen or I were the channels or the mediums, where we used other people.
And we did that because part of the book dealt with the suicide bombers, the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.
And because the Islamic tradition doesn't believe in the psychic or mediums or channeling, We couldn't find any Muslim channels or people indigenous to that culture who said they were getting information from recent suicides, terrorist suicides, suicide bombers.
And so we had to set up our own seances or our own conditions to use a medium or a channel to try to establish contact with them.
And part of the book does deal with that, but it's not either Pam or me who were the channels of that.
Okay, well this is absolutely fascinating, then.
So this is a lot of correlated material, and so what we're going to hear is not from a single source, but rather from many sources.
Yes.
Okay.
Also, it sounds as though you may be the definitive person to speak to about channeling anyway.
Yeah, and when you ask that leading question, like, you know, don't want to hurt your feelings or anything, but I'm very dubious about the whole issue of channeling.
I throw myself right into it, because I've moved in academic and scholarly and scientific and research circles for decades now, representing the paranormal and the otherworldly, which is hard to do, you know?
I sort of identify with people like John Mack, the late John Mack, and others in that regard.
You feel kind of martyred about it all, you know?
But in a sense, somebody's got to do it, so to speak, and you've got to do your homework.
You've got to be careful that you don't estrange people, that you don't automatically turn them off by using buzzwords like, you know, auras or chakras or angels, because you lose your audience.
And I don't want to lose my audience.
But when we did that channeling book, and Jeremy Tarsier, the publisher, did it with me in 1988, he said, look, I don't want to preach to the choir.
I think they'll follow this.
They're already open to channeling.
What I want to try to reach with you in this book Is the people who are on the fence, the intelligentsia, the scientific community, those who say, I don't believe this, I don't think there's anything to this.
I want to help to try to reach them and get a foot in the door of that because we have an emerging new paradigm here of which channeling is only a small part.
And it's like a Rosetta Stone.
If you can get people seriously interested in channeling and not easily dismiss it out of hand without even thinking about it or really looking at it, then you can maybe get them to look at other things as well.
And that's the way I look at channeling.
Deeply interconnected with everything from UFOs, the crop circles, to the psychic, to alternative and complementary medicine, and so it's all very inter-knit for me.
And so, the fact that we don't understand channeling, and the fact that it's very much of a mixed bag, and you can't paint it all with one brush, you know, as long as you can find one black swan, you can't say all swans are white.
You can find swans in many cases.
Of course.
Of those channelers that you have investigated, apparently quite a number, what percentage do you dismiss as perhaps mentally disturbed or just plain faking it?
I think from the research I've done, from the research that I'm aware of that others have done, this is not mainstream research.
This is not university-based research because it's kind of kept out of that politically.
So it's kind of marginal.
It's done, as I have done it, and I would say that very few cases of channeling are pathological or, you know, dysfunctional, maladaptive, crazy, mental illness.
Very few.
And at the same time, I would say that not that many are consciously fraudulent or hoaxing or pretending.
That leaves the lion's share of the hypothesis, if it's not genuine channeling, what is it?
Which is, it would be left to people who think they're channeling but aren't.
By my definition.
Okay.
Alright.
Well, you're dealing with the biggest questions in life, and I think the biggest question in life is what happens after physical life.
In other words, is there a continued conscious existence of any sort after physical death?
And so I'd like to first, I guess, begin there with you.
Yes.
You know, it's the biggest for me, too, and I lie in bed at night like a big kid.
You just look at kind of adolescent, you know, mentalities lying there all night sometimes wondering, gee, what really happens?
What really, really happens?
Sometimes I wish that the skeptics and those who are really close to the paranormal and the larger paradigm and the larger reality Would be more self-doubting or more open-minded like I am, admittedly, false humility aside, because I lie there and I wonder, crap, what if I'm wrong?
What if there's nothing after death?
What if it's a big, fat void, and I'm wrong?
And my beliefs are just wishful thinking, and I torture myself with that.
In other words, I keep open to the fact that I could be wrong.
No, I don't think a big fat void would be all that bad.
No!
You know, it wouldn't, as in sleep.
I mean, when you're asleep, unless you're dreaming actively, it's a big fat void, and it's not that bad.
So, that is one distinct possibility.
What percentage of possibility would you give the big fat void scenario?
Well, because the qualification I put on my answer is that I spent a great deal of my time looking at, talking to people and looking at published things and interviewing people who've had non-ordinary experiences.
Paranormal, non-ordinary, psychic, otherworldly, inexplicable, anomalous, whatever your term is, they're all sort of the same general bag.
And after you've heard a certain number of these thousands of stories, including the subset of them most recently in this book about suicide and the repercussions of suicide on the other side, supposedly, When you live with as much of that, it kind of seeps into your blood, so to speak.
And it's very hard for me, at this point in my life, after all these decades of doing this, to believe that there's nothingness.
Because it would put a lie to these thousands and thousands of heartfelt stories.
and near-death experiences and out-of-body experiences and other kinds of things like that
that seem to be pieces of the puzzle that there is continuation of consciousness
beyond the death of the body and that the brain, that our bodies, our brains are not all that we are.
I absolutely agree with you, by the way.
In my own thinking, if it's a big fat void, I could deal with it.
But having done this show now for years and years and years and heard so many of the stories that you're talking about right now, the near-death experiences, all these heartfelt stories, I too have come to believe, actually as a result of doing this program, Doctor, that there absolutely is some sort of continuation of consciousness after death.
So you and I, we're on the same page about that, and I'm sure many of your listeners are, and I would, therefore, at the same time, I want to sort of tuck channeling in there.
Say, well, if you're open to that or these other aspects, these are all interrelated on some other level.
There is a larger reality, a larger human potential, a larger experienceability to the universe and being in it, and consciousness's place in it, and the creative aspect of consciousness.
And given all of that, to just dismiss all channeling as fraud or hoaxing or craziness, is overly simplistic, although some cases can be explained
that way.
So it's toleration of ambiguity, it's being able to live with the fact that it's a mixed bag
is kind of crazy-making for some people that want it to be simply all
yes or all no, and it isn't that way.
Even a number of physicians that I've spoken to, emergency room physicians who deal with the death and dying
virtually every day, if you get to talk to them privately, they absolutely believe, because they've encountered it so
many times.
Publicly, however, doctors, scientists tend to be, well, they tend to say no, they don't believe in God, actually.
I guess that's kind of a professional... I'm not sure what it is with scientists, but they can't put their hand on it, they can't prove it, and so they deny it.
At any rate, I have... I think most...
Human beings, Doctor, have contemplated suicide and those who say they haven't, I think, are probably lying.
At the very least, contemplated it or thought about ending their own life as opposed to some other ending.
Would you think that's true?
At some time or other, yes.
I have myself.
Why do we stick it out?
This kind of existential issue that Sartre and Camus and others brought up You know, you're swimming in this, you're thrown in this ocean with birth, or you're in this existence, and the existence may seem fundamentally meaningless, either unduly psychologically or physically painful, which is basically meaningless, and why keep swimming?
And yet, the argument is, keep swimming.
Keep swimming because it's like, it's a gift that's God-given, it's the presenting problem, it's what you've got to work with, and to turn away from it is more dubious than to stick with it, even though you might be unable to find The deeper levels of meaning that would make it easier to keep swimming, so to speak.
What do you think is the best evidence for life after death?
Is it NDEs?
Is it the sightings of ghosts?
Is it paranormal research?
I mean, what do you think is the best evidence?
if channeling is receiving information are coming to a few a person from from
some source of outside of that person but isn't physically based at some kind
of trap transcending about
commute communication from another another being entity source presence of
mind consciousness if that's channeling
the uh...
uh...
but the the but that the nature of uh...
uh...
mediumship is a subset of channeling in other words mediumship is normally
defined as receiving information from deceased human spirits, discarnate human
spirits from the afterlife so that's a subset of channeling because channeling is more than
just communication with deceased spirits it could be extraterrestrials, nature spirits
gods uh... universal consciousness Some people claim they channel God or Christ or who knows what.
I was going to say collective consciousness.
There's so much incredible work going on now with consciousness.
I'm sure you're aware of most of the work.
And who's to say that channeled information is simply not information gleaned from the collective consciousness?
Well, look, my worldview, and this may have to be for another time, but the whole universe at heart, when you go down far enough, it's not just turtles all the way down, as somebody once said, it's consciousness.
It's spirit, it's consciousness.
In other words, physical reductionism says, which is the main view of physical science today, is that if you go down to the very heart of reality, it is physicality, it is materialism, it is inanimate, you know, billiard balls and forces and fields and so on.
And that consciousness is an emergent epiphenomenon of brain-body.
In other words, you have a brain, you have a body, you have protoplasm, you have neurophysiological, you know, synaptical, electromagnetic, electrochemical firing patterns, all this physical stuff, physical chemistry stuff, and biology stuff, and that consciousness emerges, what's called an epiphenomenon, emerges from that physical background, and that's all you have.
Hold it there for a second.
We're at a break point.
This is going to be a very, very interesting show.
Dr. John Clemo is my guest.
We're going to be talking about what happens to you should you decide to take your own life.
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever the case may be, wherever you are.
We've got a good one on our hands here.
Dr. John Clemo is my guest.
And actually, he has a doctorate, a number of doctoral programs in the past 32 years.
He's quite a guy.
He's compiled a very great deal of material, yes, much of it coming from channeling, about what happens to us if we commit suicide.
And in this we're also discussing, of course, whether or not we actually have a life that extends beyond the physical one we're leading right now.
And this is a very Very important topic to me, and I'm glad that we've come up with a very good guest on the subject because, well, I got pretty close myself.
Pretty close, I guess, doesn't even describe it.
We'll talk about, I will talk about some of that here in a moment with Dr. John Clemo.
I'm Art Bell.
Once again, Dr. John Clemo.
Doctor, one of the other things that has led me over the years to believe that there really is some sort of life after death or existence after death is I've done I don't know how many shows now on EVP, electronic voice phenomena, and I have tried to shoot holes in that unsuccessfully now for years.
This EVP thing There's something to it, Doctor.
There's really, truly something to it.
There's no question in my mind about it.
There's something to it.
Now whether we're hearing the voices of the dead or we're hearing voices from the collective unconscious or conscious or whatever it is we're hearing, we're hearing something and it's real.
I know you've investigated this for years, EVP that is to say.
What have you found?
Well, before the break you asked me, what do I think is the best evidence of survival of physical death, and I wanted to make a distinction that if current science says everything is basically physical reductionism at the heart, and I believe it's the other way around, that physicality emerges from consciousness, and that everything is basically a living consciousness field, which is not a very popular view, but it's the way I see the universe and move and have my being in it.
Given that, then mediumship and channeling is sort of somewhat difficult to pin down if we're all in a big kind of
universal mind and there's compartmentalizations and some of it looks like it's
holding still and being more physical and some of it's more kind of living
and conscious and self-aware.
It's a great big multi-dimensional koan, you know, mystery.
And so to put your trust in mediumship or channeling and say that's
another entity over there and that's one here because this one's
associated with a body and that one doesn't have a body and can you not have
a body instead of consciousness? Well if you believe everything is made out
of consciousness essentially then you can have consciousness without a body
talking to consciousness within a body and two consciousnesses talking
one as a body and one doesn't and so that's kind of the way my thinking
goes.
Did you really?
Do you mind telling us where that came from?
Can you tell us?
Well, it came from an individual, a philanthropic, wealthy individual, who was raised in a spiritualist church.
money to study EVP. Did you really? Do you mind telling us where that came from? Can you tell us?
Well, it came from an individual, a philanthropic, wealthy individual, who was raised in the
spiritualist church. And because he was raised in a spiritualist community, which believes in
survival of physical death, and where the minister is essentially a whole kind of seance as part of
of religious services and act as mediums and so on.
It's been going on since the late 1800s.
The spiritualism as an international movement affected a lot of people.
A lot of famous people were involved with it, as you may know.
Anyway, because he came up in that climate as a child, he believes in this.
He doesn't need to be convinced of it.
Now that he has money, he wants to contribute toward research that goes in that direction to prove this stuff.
The problem with proving these things, there's something called James's Law, named after William James, the great philosopher-psychologist.
And what James's Law says that, I don't remember who came up with it, but I like it, says there's always going to be just about enough evidence and information and experience to prove to the skeptics that something isn't true, And to prove to the believers that it is true.
It's an agnostic kind of netherworld where we're left to make our own decisions.
I think that's part of the genius of God, let's say.
It's an open system where our own free will and our own passion and our own awe and wonder and inner guidance and fumbling and trial and error and seeking for meaning comes up with whatever we can come up with, and we're left open to that.
Okay, alright, so you were funded, you had money to investigate EVP, so how did you go about it, and what were your findings?
Well, I found out after three years of doing it, and my funding source and I agreed to it, that I really wasn't a natural experimentalist.
Like, have you had Dean Radin on?
Oh, of course.
Yeah, well, Dean Radin is a natural experimentalist.
He thinks experiments, he sees things in terms of experiments, and he does a lot of experiments and publishes them.
God help him, you know, good for him.
I'm not really that way. I'm a theoretician. I think about things. I get ideas. I sort of am like a channel.
I feel like the mind at large sort of flows through me and I kind of surrender to it.
It's kind of confounding to some people, but I'm not your normal professor in that sense.
Nevertheless, what did you find?
What did I find? I found we got some voices. We did a year's worth of seances where we used night
vision and got a lot of little beings.
They didn't have faces, but they would move in and out of things.
They would move in and out of our bodies.
We kind of captured all this on film.
We're not the only ones to get that kind of a thing, but we certainly got that.
We got occasional, we got some voices, did a lot of work with tape recorders and radios,
tuned between channels, getting the white noise static like the classic radio.
And we had a sense deprivation, we had a professional recording booth that we could
get down to like only a handful of photons could get into it or out of it.
You know, we had these photomultiplier detectors, and we could seal the sucker up, both sound-wise and sight-wise.
And we were looking for bio-photonic emissions.
In other words, how bio-photons can mediate consciousness or information from the into-bodies or out-of-bodies or something like that.
So we did a lot of kinds of experiments.
Here's one to give you an example.
In a sense, I was like Raiden in that I like to cook up crazy experiments, but I can't say they came up with a lot.
But I didn't really replicate them.
I didn't stick with them enough, I must admit.
But one of them we did was we hooked electrodes onto a plant.
You know, Cleve Baxter's work?
Sure.
And we hooked electrodes to the leaves of a plant, and then we kind of meditated and said, if there's any spirits there, could you use the plant as a channel or a medium?
And then we set up a software system where, depending upon whether the direct current coming out of the plant leaf went up or down or changed, that that was correlated with the letters of the alpha board, kind of like a Ouija board.
And so the spirit, or whatever it was, could spell things out.
And I'd be damned if it didn't spell some things out, out of the background kind of gobbledygook of nonsense letters.
And some of the things did correlate with somebody who had a friend who recently died and communicated something that she needed to know as the executor of his will, and that came across out of the damn plant.
Now, what you can't control for, if it's a big conscious universe, is did that come from her unconscious?
Did it come from kind of a universal mind or some kind of a holographic data source and there is no survival of death?
Did it come from him somewhere?
Who knows?
That's the problem with this.
In your investigation of EVP, Doctor, did you look into the work of George Meeks at all?
Sure, oh yeah, I corresponded with him.
Actually, I think I might have gotten some funding at one point a long time ago from MetaScience, when it was still in existence.
Oh yeah, I've been familiar with his work and I have recordings of his assistant, his colleague, who mainly did the EVP work.
And I'm very, very familiar with EVP research.
I've worked with researchers around the world.
Ernst Sankowski is probably one of the very best scientists involved with EVP work.
And then there's stuff like the harsh fishbox work, which is so good, it's sort of like the billy meyer photographs you know it's too damn good so
people are telling you some of the meat stuff so i stood my hair on end or not dot
yeah and so i i i agree with you
that a percentage of the evp uh... evidence
is uh... is absolutely uh...
arresting gives you goose bumps there's no easy hypothesis to to explain it away
All right.
Let's get to the meat of this.
I really want to know.
I recently lost my wife of 16 years.
We were so close.
I mean, every day, 24 hours a day, we were together.
We were best friends.
We were so in love.
It was the best marriage that ever happened in one day.
Doctor, I lost her.
She was an asthmatic.
Anyway, one day I lost her and for about a week or two weeks, I really, really, really got close to suicide, Doctor.
I had a mouthful of Uh, pills, and I got that close.
I mean, that close.
And I, the only thing, things that stopped me were, I remember my wife, Ramona, had told me many times, suicide was wrong, and that she knew, without a doubt, that you were supposed to play out the hand you were dealt.
Those, that's actually her exact words.
That, and I'm not a really religious person, although perhaps now a little more so than I've been for all the rest of my life and since her death.
But, you know, given the possibility that religion is correct and suicide is a sin, and I'm told you might not ever get to see your loved one if you commit suicide.
There's all kinds of stories.
Those two things, I guess, are what stopped me.
But I'm telling you, just barely.
It was so close.
So I'm very curious.
In the information you've received and correlated by channeling, what do you know about The results of suicide for people on the other side?
There's not an Old Testament judgmental God that's going to punish you, even though it may not be a good thing to do to take your own life.
It may be unnatural or taking away something that is God-given or nature-given.
But nonetheless, you're not really punished for it or judged for it, other than that you judge yourself.
That this seems to be a recurrent story across these hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of sources over 120 years that we've studied, is that you review your own life, and you look at it, and you look at the sins of omissions and the sins of commission, and if one of the big sins, in a sense, was taking your own life prematurely, or you didn't have to, or you got impatient, or you got angry, or frustrated, and you did it, and then it's irrevocable, and you're over there on the other side, what are the repercussions of it?
First of all, it's irrevocable, and you have to live with that, the repercussions of that.
Plus, we are in a great school system, a great learning, soul-growth learning system that's interdimensional and that transcends life and death, as I understand it, from all these endless, endless sources, and from some of my own experiences.
And so, to take your own life is you didn't give your life, you didn't give yourself the
life, and so it's not really yours to take in that sense. And to do that prematurely is
exactly what your wife had said. We need to play out what we've been given. It's kind
of God-given or nature-given, it's fate-given. And if it gets very painful or seems to be
intolerable, then in a sense that's part of the soul growth and part of the lesson
learning and the compassion we can bring to others later.
But if you do kill yourself, it doesn't mean you fry in hell forever.
You make your own heaven or hell, in a sense.
There's a purgatorial place you can go to, and so can the suicide bombers go there.
Allah doesn't give them the 70 virgins and grin ear to ear when they get over there, right?
They really find out that they were sold kind of a propagandic bill of goods by the terrorists, the subculture they came up in.
But it doesn't mean that they're tortured.
Worse than they could be tortured on this side.
We torture ourselves.
But we are redeemed.
We can redeem ourselves.
We can forgive ourselves and others.
So there's a positive side to this story.
But the fact that we are dealt these cards, dealt this life.
No matter how painful psychologically or psycho-emotionally or physically it is, we should be sticking it out, seems to be the moral of the story that I hear from the other side, except in cases with terminal illness, extreme pain and so on.
Well, I was going to go there.
In other words, there are, in essence, mitigating circumstances, yes?
Yes, yes.
And to really, truly, empathically indwell in another person's lived experience, to walk in their shoes, to look out through their eyes, to hold the pain that their heart holds.
We're not psychic, unfortunately, as a species yet.
Some of us are, a little bit, but we can't really do that.
We can't get out of ourselves and into another to really know what it was like that they jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge, you know, the umpteenth person to do it.
because we weren't in their shoes. It's easy for us to say, oh, you shouldn't have done that.
You should have just held on to your cross, or your Jesus medal, or whatever,
and stuck around, and let faith see you through.
Well, when you're in the throes of that experiential angst, and dark night of the soul, it can be so awful, and your
bones so awful.
I wanted to join her.
When you said that you had this pills in your mouth, my question to you was going to be,
was it that you were angry at God or life, or you wanted to join her?
Yes, to the latter.
I wanted to join her.
I could not conceive of any reason to continue to live without her.
It was as simple as that.
I live every day with the thought experiment of losing my wife for 27 years, and I ache in my belly, and I actually cry real tears even though she's still here, but I'm already anticipating that one of us is going to have to go.
We're going to lose each other.
One of us is going to lose the other soon, and we're not getting any younger, and so I know that feeling already in myself, and would I want to live without her?
I don't feel like I would, but I will, just like you will.
I almost didn't, though.
And so I wonder, I mean, in a way, you said it yourself a moment ago.
You said that we were given this life.
In other words, I didn't give myself life, I was given life, right?
So, if I take my own life, how does that differ, and does it differ, cosmically or whatever, from taking another life?
Is it murder?
If I take my own life, how does it differ from murder?
It is, it's self-murder.
Sometimes suicide is defined as self-murder or self-homicide.
Well, murder is a deadly sin, for sure.
I mean, it's a very, very serious sin.
So if we believe that suicide is murder, as it would be if I took a gun and shot somebody else, then are you also going to tell me that if I took a gun and shot somebody else, the There would be nothing on the other side in the way of Helen Brimstone for me.
Well, there is.
There is.
There is punishment, but not the sort of the one-dimensional comic strip notion of the punishment.
In a sense, it could be conceived as even worse.
I mean, if you're going to have to, if you were, if you did, if you murdered, if you caused pain to someone else, Until you've had pain caused to you, so that you know what it's like to be on the other, to have true empathy, true golden rule.
Do not do unto others as you would not have done unto yourself.
Do you know what it really feels like in another life?
You know, within a life, in another life, reincarnationally, whatever it may be, it seems like we're given an opportunity to experience enough that we can have true love and compassion for our fellow beings, and that takes a lot of living.
You can't always do it in one lifetime.
But to kill somebody else, is to take their life away, the opportunities that they had
up until then, and it's one of the most tremendous no-nos you can do, metaphysically,
of course, spiritually, of course it is.
But I believe...
Okay, is there a spiritual difference between taking somebody else's life and your own?
Well I think they're both essentially the same in that they're God or nature-given,
and that we didn't give it to ourselves, and so we shouldn't do it in either case.
It's a tremendous presumption to stop that continuum, that process, whether it's your own or somebody else's.
I do make a qualitative distinction between whether you're taking your own life or someone else's.
For me, it's a worse sin, if you want to put it, to take someone else's life, the presumption on another life force, another being, another evolving soul, but they're an immortal spirit, and they're not just their bodies, you're ending the life of the body, and so it's not death forever to them, in my frame of reference from the research I've done.
But to take your own life is to, in a sense, to kind of cop out Of the process you were involved in, which was a learning and growth process, including as painful as it was, because some of the biggest challenges were dealt are the least easy ones.
And if we kept changing the channel, so to speak, or popping the pills every time it got difficult, we would keep avoiding the lesson learning and the soul growth that I believe we're here to do, so that eventually we can help other souls and other beings, not kill them or ourselves.
We're very near the top of the hour.
Do you believe that we do come back, that there is reincarnation, that until we attain that perfection or that final graduate moment, we do keep coming back?
My research shows a great deal of evidence from a lot of sources that we do continue existence, coming back into the physical body.
Some people don't.
Some people continue to evolve on the other side, so to speak.
But yes, I believe We are immortal spirits and we are growing home to God.
Okay, doctor.
All right, take a break.
We'll be right back.
Dr. John Clemo is my guest.
Fascinating stuff from Manila in the Philippines.
I'm Art Bell.
I'm Art Bell, Dr. John Clemo is my guest, and he's an academic, deeply academic as a matter of fact, and he's done collective studies, much of it coming from channeled material about the subject of death, life after death, and most specifically suicide.
and we'll get back to Dr. Clemo in just a moment.
Once again, Dr. John Clemo.
Doctor, a couple of feedback messages from, you know, I get them as I go on here on the computer from the audience.
One, obviously, from very much a Christian, Mike in Tampa, Florida, says, morning Art, you people are too much and I worry about how much either one of you knows about the Bible.
If you murder someone else and you sincerely repent, you can easily be saved.
If you take your own life, your chances of salvation are slim to none.
Do you have any reaction to that?
Well, I mean, the Bible is one source of information and guidance.
So is the Koran and the Talmud and so on.
And I think forgiveness and repentance and restitution are all very, very real and very important.
Things are not necessarily totally irrevocable.
uh... to make a distinction that you can and and be forgiven for killing someone else
but you can't do that if you kill yourself i don't think it's it's quite
uh...
as well provided that uh...
there's a metaphor that i thought of earlier when you said to you know
when i sent in in your in one of your responses are to you you sort of would like to think that people really do
frightened hell very hotly if they kill somebody else
like the suicide bombers or whatever as well and And for me, I make the distinction of the relationship between a death penalty and life in prison.
You know, like if somebody, if you really just want to get retribution to somebody and you want to just kill them, you know, let's put the drug in the vein and put their lights out.
That's the worst thing we can do to them.
Well, what about You know, the counter-argument, let them stew in prison for the rest of their natural life and have to live with this for the rest of their life.
You didn't take their life away, but you left them with their life to deal with what they did, to never forget it.
Which is the worst one to do?
Just pull the rug out from under them and cease of all consciousness and awareness and thought and reflection and possibility?
Of anything happening from that, versus that life in prison notion.
I don't know, I guess it depends on how much value you put on the physical existence side of things.
And then this from Mike in Auburn, Washington.
Asks the doctor what he thinks about people who don't take really good care of themselves, to the point of being negligent.
In other words, people that purposely, for example, eat poorly, smoke, drink alcohol, abuse drugs, that kind of thing.
Yeah, I have a younger brother who Who died quite suddenly, just poisoned his liver with alcohol.
We didn't really see it coming.
My mother didn't.
He was living with my mother at the time.
Was it suicide?
Was it intentional?
Was it just slow motion suicide?
I think it was.
I think he didn't really want to stay in this life.
Alright, you obviously, having done all this collective work with channeling, must have some details about what happens to people on the other side who commit suicide.
What kind of detailed information do you have?
Well, there's a commonality to anybody who dies.
After you die, there are certain experiences that you have, and we outline those categorically in the book.
If you happen to have killed yourself to get over there to the other side, there can be... Let's say you were an atheist who didn't expect anything on the other side, or expected only certain kinds of, you know, Old Testament kind of a thing, or Quran thing, then there's a kind of a create-your-own-reality for a while.
At least your beliefs will carry over there, and you'll kind of tune to that possible scenario for a while.
But sooner or later, you know, the larger reality, the larger transphysical reality will set in.
You'll be sort of taught.
There are teachers there.
There are spirit guides there, as there are here, according to all this material.
But you tend to have a life review.
You tend to look back on your life.
You're given choices.
Do you want to maybe come back and try some of this again?
Again with a kind of a veiling, an amnesic veiling, so that you're not going to know it all when you come back in, but you're going to be faced with some of the same things again.
And maybe the next choice point, you won't take your own life.
You won't kill somebody else that time around.
What we haven't mentioned here is karma.
I mean, karma, I deal quite a bit in karma.
My co-author, Pamela Heath, and I deal with karma quite a bit, because karma is another way of looking at the repercussions of your acts, and how you're judged, or do you judge yourself, or does the universe do it, or God, or whatever.
And, you know, I believe in karma.
I believe there's evidence for karma, and there's certainly a thread in the suicide aspect that you...
You're given an opportunity to reflect on what you did and to make restitution in a way.
I worked with a dissertation with a student once on the area of reparative or restorative justice, which is a fairly new movement.
Rather than just punishing someone, throwing them in the prison, whatever, you make them face their victim.
They have to face their victim and they have to make restitution of some kind.
They actually have to pay back in some kind of way, live with the results of what they did.
This is a good analogy for suicide and for the suicide bombers as well, I think.
And that seems to be a theme we're getting, that the karma of it is you must deal with the repercussions of that act.
You don't get off easy, you just get snuffed.
You don't have to not deal with it, and in a sense, the empathy, the golden rule of it, on down the line, is part of how the universe seems to work in a spiritual manner, that you will set to right the wrongs that you had done, and you have an opportunity to do that.
So the caller in from the biblical frame of reference, I believe, was right.
But I believe that goes for the suicide, too.
Suicides can be very sad situations.
often they come back, communicate back to a medium or channel to try to tell the story
of why they killed themselves.
They didn't really want to hurt you or punish you by taking themselves out of your life.
It was just too painful, or it was a mistake, perhaps.
They didn't mean to kill themselves.
And so they want to get the story back to you.
Please can I have one opportunity to make one call back, not from prison, but from the
afterlife, back to the earth side, because suicide is so unsettling once you've done
it that you want to do something about what you've done.
Fascinating.
More times than not, a ghost, what we call a ghost, It seems to be coming from a violent death, or perhaps a suicide, or an unexpected death, or I don't know, something like that.
And I'm sure your research has probably shown the same thing, yes?
Yes, yes.
It is unsettling, it's perturbing, it's loaded, it's value-laden, emotionally loaded, and it seems to make make you know ripples on the negative ripples in the
force so to speak and it sort of It sort of anchors you into the location of the trauma
It's like a post-traumatic stress syndrome where you stick around the the earth level density
In a way you otherwise wouldn't if it was more of a clean break a clean death and move on to the next thing
I know it's unfinished business, too Okay
So you have found the same thing then it is There's much argument among those who study ghosts and the paranormal in general, and this even extends to EVP, about whether
What we're detecting, what we're seeing or hearing when we hear these unusual, inexplicable things are actually the spirit of a departed person or whether, you know, there's this tape loop theory that, you know, life here on Earth does some sort of imprint that seems to last after you're gone and that it's not really the spirit of the departed person but rather some sort of image of what was just sort of endlessly repeating and that's one big theory out there.
Absolutely.
This is with regard to ghosts and poltergeists and apparitions, and also with regard to, I believe, mediumship and channeling, which is called the super-ESP theory, that there is no survival of physical death, and that when somebody seems to be getting communication from the afterlife or from some other source, it's really coming from some giant holographic data pool, and that we just tune into these things And we tune in to our own needs, our own meanings.
It's not random, totally.
But there's another explanation, and that's just that we're capable of getting that information, although not from the purported source we would like to think it's coming from.
And that's a hypothesis.
That's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis.
And in the case of mediumship, particularly, it's very hard to To not hold that one open as a viable alternative to explain where these sources are coming from, except in some rare cases where the evidence seems to have had to have come from the source that it claims to be, like with cross-correspondences or evidence that nobody on Earth could know about, so you couldn't like unconsciously have your own super-ESP telepathy be picking it up from somebody on Earth.
Seeing a remote viewing from some place that's physically unearthly information, and so you rule those out, and you really are left with the source that it claims to be.
So there are some like that, but not as many as I'd like to see, actually.
Okay.
With respect to reincarnation, is there any way in your research to discern what percentage of people seem to reincarnate versus those who don't, whose soul never comes back again and goes to wherever souls go?
Well, you know, if parapsychology and psychical research and consciousness studies and so on was given any kind of presence and funding and teaching and turning out students and researchers in higher education, I could answer that a hell of a lot better.
But it's so marginalized and kept out of mainstream science and academia that you get kind of screwed there.
And so people say, show me the evidence, show me the evidence, give me the proof.
Give me your data.
Give me the stats.
And I say, I'm sorry, but you keep us out in the garage like, you know, martyred, you know, disenfranchised people.
And it's very hard to do that, you know, kind of avocationally.
But to answer your question, I would say that the research that we did with the suicide, for example, reincarnation didn't come up that much.
In other words, when people are talking about being on the other side as a result of their suicide, and in the larger literature where they're talking about being spirits who have survived physical death and they no longer have bodies and what's it like in the afterlife, which I've studied for decades before this book, that often you do not hear very much about reincarnation.
They talk more about what you go on to do on the other side, further on down the line, and you've had your shot at physicality.
But from my experience, and I guess it's a choice on my part, I choose to believe that reincarnation makes more sense because to come back here and have a chance to take the course again, so to speak, you know, and make different choices this time around, even though you're not going to be consciously remembering the earlier ones, you may be unconsciously being able to make connection with that earlier information from a previous life.
That makes more sense to me, if you could say that.
Okay, but you say that makes more sense to you, but that's not necessarily a product of your research.
No, if you're going to talk about a product of my research, it's that I'm surprised that there isn't more evidence in channeled and mediumship material, more references to reincarnation.
If there's so much research on reincarnation, like Ian Stevenson's work at the University of Virginia, there's very fine research done about reincarnation.
To make you really believe it, you know?
And I do, I do.
So why isn't there more references to it, more talking about it from people in the afterlife where you'd think you'd hear more about, like I'm about to go back for another lifetime or whatever?
Sure.
You don't, and so there's a conspicuous, not total absence of it, but there's not that much of it, and that, I don't know if it troubles me, but I'm curious about it, and that is based on my research.
Okay.
Again, if I can press you for any details.
I know that in channeling sessions, Doctor, I mean fairly specific details are given.
So what do we know about the channeling of suicides?
What have they said about their role on the other side?
Any specifics at all you can give me versus those who have not committed suicide?
Most of the spirits that we seem to have connected to in these sciences done purposely for the purposes of the book that Dr. Heath set up at her home mostly, it was so soon, it's been so soon since the experience, since the death, that There's still a certain bewilderment, a certain unsettledness, a certain lack of match between what they expected and what they're finding in there, and so there's a lot of unfinished business, kind of a muddled story, confusion.
One of the sources we did seem to get in touch with was two of the Chechen women who got on the planes with bombs, were they called planes, remember that?
Yes, yes, yes.
A certain kind of anger that they had about how the male leaders in the patriarchy of Iraq had sort of propagandized them to do it, and it's their duty, and it's their duty, and so on.
They did take their own lives, and then after they did, they had really Shall we say, mixed feelings about the fact that it cost them their life to go along with the party line, so to speak.
What prompted you, doctor, to do so much research into people who had taken their own lives and others, as in, you know, bombers, that kind of thing?
Well, the suicide bomber thing is a current event thing.
If we could affect that deep fabric of why so many Islamic fundamentalists are willing to take their own lives in the name of a holy jihad, a holy war, where it does supposedly give you a loophole as a Muslim to take your own life and to take others' lives.
All the Muslim scholars we studied and interviewed said, no, that's not true.
If you really look at the sources, Islam does not say that.
You never have a loophole to kill yourself or to kill someone else.
It's a big, big no-no.
But they still, in the name of jihad, do that.
And so we wanted to kind of do what we could to To counter or to put some food for thought out there to the world and to the Middle Eastern world, in light of that.
So that's the reason that part is in there.
But the suicide part in general, the reason for the book, and this is very quickly, was that I had a psychologist come, referred to me, who was going to kill herself.
She said, I'm contemplating suicide, I'm a Jewish atheist, I'm a psychologist like you are, about my same age.
And she said, before I kill myself, though, I want to talk to you about what's going to
happen after you die, especially given that I'm going to be killing myself.
I'm not going to believe you or anything, but I'd like to talk to you about it.
We ended up talking for six months every week.
And the first thing I did before the first and the second visit of hers, I went to my
own library and pulled out a bunch of things and just made some photocopies of sources
that claimed to be suicides, communicating from the other side, talking about the repercussions
of their act and why you don't really escape anything.
There's no easy out.
is something like karma.
Do try to stick with it on the earth plane if you at all can.
There is a larger spiritual reality, but there are negative repercussions to your act if you do kill yourself or kill someone else, and so on.
And I got some of these together and gave it to her next week.
It's called Bibliotherapy, where you have somebody read something and then you discuss it, you know?
Kind of focus on it.
I mentioned that to Pam Heath, who was a doctoral student of mine at the time, and she kind of parked that in her thought.
And about a couple years later, she came to me and she said, you know, remember that story you told me in class about that client that came to you?
And she said, well, you know, I've already been gathering some information on that, and that became the beginning of the book.
In other words, the book is sort of like a book-length bibliotherapy.
of readings from the other side, like I did the little mini, you know, seat of the pants one for that psychologist.
By the way, I don't know whether what I did helped her or not, or whether she killed herself or not, because after six months, her mother had serious cancer, and she had to go take care of her mother, which is kind of a cosmic joke or something.
She had to turn her attention from her own doing herself in to take care of her mother.
That's the universe sort of at work, I would say.
Maybe so.
Maybe so.
This is absolutely fascinating stuff.
You're the first researcher who's really gone into depth on this subject, Doctor, and so I've got a million questions.
A million questions for you, and I appreciate it.
You called me a deeply academic before or something?
Well, I did.
I read your bio.
That's deeply academic.
Oh yeah, but I just wanted to throw in there for your listeners and for you that my whole background, my whole All right.
We'll be right back.
is as a creative person, as a poet and a painter. That's the way I began this life. And the
reason that I got involved with channeling was I didn't know where the creative process
came from, where the inspiration came from.
All right. Well, perhaps there. All right. Doctor, hold it right there. We'll be right
back. This is Coast to Coast AM.
Maybe that's the way to do it.
Morning, afternoon or evening, whatever it is, wherever you are.
I am Art Bell.
My guest is Dr. John Clemo and we're talking about people who commit suicide.
And I wonder, the doctor said that specifically in those suicide cases that he's studied, The people on the other side appear confused, or are in a state of confusion, and I wonder if that differs from those who have died.
For example, a very natural death.
I think we'll ask that question in a moment.
Once again, Dr. John Climo, Dr. John Climo.
Doctor, you did mention that suicides frequently seem to express confusion from the other side about the whole thing or even are upset that they were talked into doing something in the case of the suicide bombers.
I wonder how that compares to other spirits that perhaps have gone in a natural way.
Is there any way to delineate?
In general, you know, those of us who are facing death, who haven't gone through the experience yet, the one-way valve of it, so to speak, we have our expectations.
A fundamentalist Christian has her expectations, and so on and so on.
An atheist has his or her expectations.
And those expectations really are going to influence, often for a while, what you do experience on the other side Or create confusion because you're not getting what you expected, or maybe the ease of the transition that you start off sort of creating your own reality over there based upon your beliefs and expectations, and so on.
And so the confusion really was more the suicide bombers part of it.
I mean, people can be confused who just take their own lives rather than die a natural death, but if there's confusion it's because The moment of death is such an irrational moment, often, unless it's euthanasia or assisted suicide, where it makes a certain amount of sense because of the physical pain, or the quality of the life is pretty much over anyway, and so a reasonable jury of your peers would sort of condone it more.
But in other situations, where it's a bad romance, or life is too meaningless, or you didn't get your way or something, and then you kill yourself, There's regret.
There's the attempt to want to communicate back that, look, this is what happened.
Suicide's not a good idea.
Try to stick with it.
There's adjustment problems that occur.
Some people don't believe that they're dead.
It depends on what you expect when you die.
When my father died, he came back a day or two later to me.
Surprised the hell out of me.
I wasn't really looking for evidence, but he was an atheist.
He was a secular humanist.
Didn't believe there was anything after he died.
And he kind of came and stood by my bed, kind of bewilderedly, because he was lost.
It was like a lucid dream, or a quasi-lucid dream.
He said, where am I?
What's going on?
Because he didn't expect anything.
So there's kind of an adjustment period there.
And if you kill yourself, there's such an emotional turmoil, it's so loaded compared to regular death, that if you believe there's something after you die, and you kill yourself, There's still going to be extra dimension to that negative dimension of that experience that if you just believe there's something after you die and then you and you had a natural natural death.
Alright, how about this, Doctor?
Is there a kind of a window of opportunity very, very close to the death of a person, for example, who is close to you?
Is there a specific time window of opportunity?
It almost seems like there is.
When very close to the death, the person can momentarily come back, make contact, make it known they're close, or in the case of your father, actually appear.
And does that window of opportunity kind of disappear?
Many of the sources for this particular book were sort of one-shot books.
In other words, somebody killed themselves, communicated back to their mother, let's say, or to a loved one, and the surviving person self-published it, privately published it, made a one-shot book out of it, or did find a publisher for it, but it's the story of that person's suicide and trying to come back and tell the story.
But as far as not having killed yourself yet, and having that twilight area of being near death, and having sort of maybe the paranormal around that atmosphere of opportunities, the guy who's considered the godfather of biofeedback, a well-known scientist, I'm slipping his name right now, but he wrote a three-volume book called Alzheimer's isn't what you think it is.
And his wife was dying of Alzheimer's.
And as she was slowly really deteriorating into death, she moved in and out of consciousness and lucidity.
She wasn't just dementia, totally.
And she would come back from the other side, so to speak, these excursions, these sort of near-death excursions, moving in and out of it.
Telling what was on the other side, communicating back from the other side in her own body like a channel unto herself from these excursions.
And he wrote the book about it, about his experiences with her, which was that twilight area of near the death, but not death yet, where she was privy to opportunities to kind of step back and forth across that line, which is quite relevant to the near-death experience.
literature, which I think is some of the strongest literature itself, that we
can have experiences, conscious experiences, and sensate experiences, even
though our body and our brain, we're brain dead, or we're bodily dead, or our
heart stopped. That's what I love about near-death experiences. It puts the lie
to the fact that consciousness is totally a function of our brain body.
All right, maybe I didn't ask the question properly.
There are some who believe that within 21 days of a death, it's possible for the deceased to come back and make some kind of contact.
And so I was asking about, is there a kind of a window of opportunity for the deceased to... Right, this is cross-cultural too.
A lot of different cultures have sometimes different, but often similar stories.
It's a matter of days, really, maybe a week, three days.
How many suicides, or people who naturally died, visit their own funeral?
You know, kind of hover out of body and watch the people there, and have that opportunity to do it.
But then how long do you stick around like an unsettled ghost before you move on, go toward the light, as the saying goes, you know?
And so, yeah, there's a grace period when you can sort of stay, or have permission to sort of be earthbound, to hang around a bit, some unfinished business, to see how
people are handling your death.
And if there's the unsettledness of a suicide, then you may have, again, that kind of dispensation
to communicate back or to appear in a loved one's dreams and to not quite let go yet because
you're so, you have such remorse that you did rip yourself out of their life as well
as out of your own life.
And so there's a kind of a grace period.
But usually, people don't hang around after they die, whether they kill themselves or not, for very long, because it's a much bigger canvas we're operating on here, this multidimensional experiential domain.
And unless you're really stuck, in a sense, you don't want to limit your palette of experience Hanging around.
I mean, when the Challenger astronauts died, I dealt with this in the channeling, the original channeling book.
All the astronauts who came back, who died in the Challenger crash, they all came back and communicated through three different mediums we were using.
It was really unsettlingly detailed, believe me.
And they had a period of time that they could communicate back, and then it sort of faded off, and there's been no more hearing from them.
Like, they took care of that business.
They had that window of opportunity.
So how long is it?
It's anywhere from a couple of days to maybe a week or two, unless you have a special deal where you need to hang around longer, you need to become a spirit guide for someone else, you hang out for the rest of your loved one's lifetime and you stay in touch with them in dreams or altered states or meditation or whatever.
Understood.
All right.
I understand that you're actually working on a book right now.
We're going to really jump out there right now about extraterrestrials, channeling extraterrestrials.
And I wonder how you see this relationship between the channeling phenomena and UFOs and extraterrestrials.
My goodness, that's quite a jump.
Or maybe it isn't.
Well, you know, I did my high school English paper for my English course in high school in 1959 on Project Blue Book.
That's how far back my UFO research goes.
I've been with the Space Brothers and the UFOs and the who knows what for a long, long time.
It's in my blood.
It's following my bliss.
It's what I have piled by the bed, those kinds of books.
Well, you know, a certain percentage of the extraterrestrials, self-described or described by contactees or abductees or whatever, are physically based and physically embodied, and some are not.
And some who seem to be physically embodied can move in and out of physicality, kind of trans-substantiation or materialization, moving through solid objects, all that kind of stuff, a whole bunch of psi or paranormal phenomena associated with extraterrestrials.
And so the part of it that interests me is the interrelationship between where people go when they die, And continue on in a trans or non-physical or subtle energy or higher frequency domain, experiential domain, of embodiment.
On the one hand, and those percentage of extraterrestrials as species or civilizations who have evolved to the point that they have that kind of embodiment or they dwell that kind of way.
So maybe the physical afterlife of human beings, I mean the physical, the transphysical afterlife of human beings, is not the same domain paraphysical domain, as some extraterrestrials have their
habitat in, or their embodiment in, but there seems to be a certain amount of overlap there,
and there's a little sub-literature that fascinates me, where you'll see Jesus, and somebody from
Alpha Centauri, and your dead great-grandmother all together looking out the porthole of
some UFO. Like, woo-hoo!
Yes, yes indeed.
You can't prove diddly-squat about any of this, except it's interesting stories and food for thought, and if any of the UFO stuff is trans-physical or has evolved technology to alchemically be able to move in and out of physicality in the zero-point energy vacuum and go beyond the speed of light, etc., etc., and we all are immersed in the glorified test tube of We have physicality, and we're consciousness-immersed in a physical body, and then we lose our physical body, or when we dream, we go into an altered state, or when we have an out-of-body experience, or a near-death experience, and so on.
And then when we physically die, we enter another realm.
We don't become extraterrestrials, but we become extraterrestrial with regard to this terrestrial Earth, and people who are terrestrial bodies.
So we become extraterrestrial.
And so there's a relationship between extraterrestrials, who are deceased human spirits in an afterlife, And extraterrestrials who are not of the almost sapien lineage associated with this planet, who may or may not have physicality to them.
So it's a fascinating larger canvas to look at and experience it.
Well, since you've done so much research on channeling, I wonder how many channelers have identified the spirit that they're channeling as at once physical human versus extraterrestrial?
Well, there's a whole...
Well, in general, if someone is receiving communication from a deceased human spirit, a human spirit who's not in physical form, that's usually called, that's the subset of channeling that's usually called mediumship.
So they're mediumistically experiencing or having communication with a human spirit.
Now, if you are having a channeling Or mediumistic-seeming experience with someone who's not human, who describes himself as not human, not of the human lineage, no matter what level of embodiment, then you're talking about a subset of channeling, which is where the source, the identified self, a source identified by the channeler, identified by the source itself, is non-human, is extraterrestrial, is ultra-dimensional, is otherworldly, in another kind of a way than just being a surviving human spirit.
Right, I'm asking how common that kind of identification is.
Well, today, I would say that it seems that the majority of the published channeled material is of purported extraterrestrial origin.
It is not the old-fashioned mediumship stuff of surviving spirits that you read about and hear of.
Oh, there is, there is, I'm sorry.
There's a lot of popular channels, popular mediums that have written books, and that keeps the I mean, I personally have a library of probably 200 books, different books, all of which are purportedly channeled from extraterrestrials.
Dr. John in Atlanta, Georgia says, what about people that have some sort of chemical imbalance in their brains or perhaps they're bipolar?
Are they judged in some different way?
Is there anything in your research that would address that, doctor?
Normally, things like channeling are associated with delusional systems, or audio hallucinations, or hearing a voice in your head, or automatic writing, or dissociation, some kind of dissociation.
It's part of you that's the source of it, but it's dissociated from your normal conscious waking self.
Bipolar, I think a relationship there is that when somebody, most creative people by the way, have some degree of bipolar Condition about them, I think.
I can speak for myself, too.
We have our high highs and our low lows.
When we get really high, we get very close to the sun, so to speak.
You know, like Icarus.
We want to find the source.
We want to find the truth.
We're consumed with the excitation of being alive and having a consciousness of trying to get in touch with a larger reality, and we don't want to take our medication, thank you very much.
It's a high!
And yet, then we crash down, and then we don't even hardly want to be alive, and a lot of suicides come out of bipolar disorder in the low part of it, because it cycles so extremely.
And yet, a happy medium, so to speak, a golden mean, is not always the vivacious living that you get in the mania part of the unipolar high.
And so, when you get up high like that, you know, you have delusions of grandeur, you think you can do things, you know, you've got a Superman complex or whatever, you can fly, whatever the hell, you think you can go beyond the normal constraints of a human being is limited to, that you would think you're limited to also when you're not in that high point.
And so, a lot of bipolar people, some bipolar people, When they're in the mania part of it, maybe think they're channeling, or may actually be channeling, or kind of get to an extraordinary human potential state of self-actualization, that they can do some of these things that they don't hide under a bushel or constrain themselves to before.
And in the depressed side, the low side, then a bipolar person might contemplate suicide.
And you either have to stabilize with a medication or try to do talk therapy to have them see hope in this stuff, suicide prevention activity.
Doctor, do you feel any bipolar aspect of yourself?
In the sense that when you get to be a 64-year-old man, or even 10 years ago, and I'm at a conference or something, and I get carried away, man.
I'm not speaking in tongues or anything, but I get excited about what I'm talking about, and I do kind of channel or give myself over to what Adolf Huxley called mind at large, the kind of universal mind that comes through the reducing valve that each of us is or has, and if you dilate that reducing valve, that aperture, if you could open it up more, you can kind of get more mind at large coming through, kind of superconductingly flowing through you, and it's a form of channeling.
In a sense, it's not an entity channeling, it's channeling the universal or channeling God or your own higher self, your own greatest potential, the angels of your better selves can come for yourself.
And if you do that in public, and the camera's running or something, it can look socially or professionally inappropriate.
Well, there's a lot of energy coming from you, Doctor.
A lot of energy.
Well, you know, I pray to be a vehicle and to be used and to be worthy of the opportunities to essentially model in human form what we human beings are capable of doing.
I have great hope for the human potential, and that's in the face of some kind of takeover, abduction, kind of extraterrestrial conspiracy theories, you know, that we're just cattle or something.
I think we're really connected, potentially connected to the source.
We can get in touch with a A guiding, transcendental presence and kind of omniscience and potential omnipotence, I think, down the line, species-wise.
And that's why some of us need to kind of stand forth from the normal, dowdy, professorial, self-limiting role and kind of energy and kind of information processing to do something extraordinary, not braggadocio or anything.
Not delusional, but just to show that we can move the pace along faster without being labeled bipolar or manic or delusional.
Doctor, I'm curious, if somebody came to you and said, look, I'm in the final stages of a really terrible disease here, I'm in awful pain, my quality of life is not worth carrying on, I'm considering suicide, how would you counsel them?
I'd probably, it's a cheap shot, but I'd probably suggest That they read this book that Dr. Heath and I wrote, because we're trying to really address exactly that.
It has a suicide prevention aspect to it.
Now, there's part of it where we quote physicians who say, you know, too many people who deal with euthanasia and assisted suicide, from the medical end of it, are not sufficiently informed about more recent pain Suffocate can fight pain.
So if you're in ignorance or counseling someone to die because the physical pain is so awful, or their useful life is just about over anyway, like Lou Gehrig's disease or something like that, which is a terrible, terrible thought, you know, why not bid them off?
You know, break a champagne glass over their head, a bottle over their head and say, launch them into the next level, you know?
Get them out of that painful body.
But some of the physicians are saying, no, no, don't do that.
That's too facile.
They can stick around and deal with this if we can deal with the pain in a way better than we have in the past.
But I don't know whether that's been really proven that we have better pain medication.
All right, doctor.
Hold it right there.
Certainly, we're under-medicated in the United States when it comes to severe pain, when it comes to the final stages of life.
Most physicians would admit that.
From Manila in the Philippines, I'm Art Bell.
Your call is coming up next.
That would be me.
Dr. John Clemo is my guest.
We're talking about suicide.
His book actually is Suicide, What Really Happens in the Afterlife.
We'll get back to him in a moment.
Listen, I'd like to get email from you, all of you.
Would love to get email from you if you have a story that you think I ought to get out on Coast to Coast AM.
Hey, I'm all ears.
Electronically, that is.
You can reach me in one of two ways.
I'm Art Bell at AOL.com, or better yet, really, because it's a little bit bigger, Art Bell at Minespring.com.
That's A-R-T-B-E-L-L, Art Bell at Minespring, M-I-N-D-E-S-P-R-I-N-G.com.
Art Bell at Minespring.com.
Write it down when you get a moment.
Jot me off a quick note.
We'll get back to Dr. John Clemo and your questions for him in a moment.
Just one very quick item before we go to the phones, and there are a lot of people waiting
to ask you questions, Doctor.
Rob in Little Rock, Arkansas wants to know, hey Art, what that other guy wanted to know, the other Fast Blast was, when a mentally ill person dies, do they get better on the other side?
You're asking me that?
I am.
Well, I could think of no more rich place to get therapy, get healing, get
alternative and complementary medicine for the soul, chicken soup for the complex spirits that we
are, than over there.
Because there's such a limitation and constraint and density, and three stooges poking each
other's eyes out over here on this earth plane, that when you get over there, there's beings
that have been around quite a while and don't even need physical bodies anymore necessarily,
and there's a lot of people ready to help and to heal and to point out meanings and
to help make one's own meanings in ways that it's hard to find people here.
You don't just turn on the bar stool in the bar and start up a conversation with someone Hope to get a lot of help.
And if you are physiologically imbalanced, brain chemistry or organic limitation to your information processing and your capacity to function psychologically and neurologically, you get over to the other side and you really don't carry all that over with you.
You had that in this lifetime.
That was what you were saddled with to experience and learn from.
You get over there, you can look back on, you do that life review again and look back on it and say, okay, I was bipolar there.
I was Down syndrome there.
Now I'm here.
What have I learned from that?
What can I have to teach others now?
And what do I want to do next?
All right, doctor, let's do it.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. John Clemo.
Hi.
Bell?
Art Bell?
Yes.
Hi, I'm Kay Wilson.
I'm from Manchester, Connecticut.
Now, I'm 64 and a half.
I was sleeping, and I didn't realize I was sleeping.
I woke up in my sleep to being in a house, and I thought, wow, this looks like it's a farmhouse in Texas, and I don't like that architecture very much.
So I wondered, what the heck am I doing here?
So I went to the door, and I looked out on this long porch.
And there was sun, and it looked like Texas, like rolling hills, burnt grass.
And who comes along but this man up the side?
And he walks up onto the porch, and he looks at me.
He had a widow's peak, a little bit of a... And I'm thinking, is this somebody I know?
Is this man alive?
And I look at him.
I said, no, he's not.
He's not alive.
He's passed on, but he's alive and there.
So I thought, well, maybe it's my grandfather I never saw a picture of.
So I looked at him very carefully.
I'm very artistic.
Looked at his eyes, his nose, his ears, his chin, and his hairline.
And we looked at each other, and he never said a word.
And then he turned around, and as he turned around, there was a glint of, you know, how he hadn't shaved.
And my husband woke me up out of this dream and said, Kay, Kay, get on the Turn on the television set.
The Columbia has gone down.
And I went in there.
I'm getting chills as I speak.
I went in there.
I turned on the television set.
I hadn't gotten a chance.
They hadn't shown the astronauts boarding, you know, the vessel as they usually do.
I hadn't seen it anyway.
And who should come down that ramp?
I almost fell on the floor.
Willie McCool.
It was Willie McCool.
He had a grayish blue suit on, a white tie, I mean, a white shirt and a tie.
It was him!
Every single feature of it was him.
And then I just, oh my God!
I was, you know, flabbergasted.
So I called up my brother-in-law, who works for NASA in Colorado Springs, and I told him that Columbia had disintegrated, and I was, you know, horrified.
And of course, then I got off the phone.
But later on, I said to him, you know, I tried to figure out why Willie McCool would come to me.
I'm a person who's been agoraphobic for about 20 years.
Please pray for me in the name of God.
I don't want to spend the rest of my life like this.
But anyway, and you know, I said, you know, maybe God was trying to tell me that there's life after death.
And maybe God wanted me to tell my brother-in-law to please tell his parents that he is alive and well.
And you know, when astronauts come down, they don't always shave.
That little glint of blondish stubble, you know what I'm saying?
Oh yeah, those little kind of surreal, super real taste of evidence that, boy, this is This really has a convincing quality to it.
What you're describing is a classic textbook case of what happens to probably millions of people.
We don't always hear from each other about it, but certainly hundreds of thousands.
that we are visited in the discrete altered state, naturally occurring discrete altered
state of consciousness called sleep, called dream sleep, that that's a perfect window
to be contacted even if we're not naturally psychic or naturally channeled.
In this altered state of consciousness, we come out on another floor of the elevator,
we're tuned to another frequency domain where experiences can happen and where communication
can happen and meetings can happen.
And so I think that you were describing having, why he came to you if you didn't know him,
you might have been just, it might have been opportune, the light might have been on in
your house so to speak, figuratively speaking, and he came there.
I don't know the fine-tuning on that, but I believe you, from the sound of it, you did experience him, And, you know, you might not write a book about it or get out of the agoraphobic, get out of the house, get out of the agoraphobia, but maybe something, or you'll at least contact the, you know, the thing about the brother-in-law or whatever, you might be moved to do something that that dream starts a domino effect with, because there's something that you know in your bones is exceptionally real and convincing that you know from your own lived experience, and that's how most people who experience the paranormal and the non-ordinary
They don't need data.
They don't need evidence.
They have personal experience, and that's it.
And you're a good example of that.
Okay.
Dr. Wildcardline, you're on the air with Dr. John Clemo.
Hi.
Hi.
This is Eric.
I'm calling from the Phoenix, Arizona area.
Yes, sir.
I'm listening to you on Streamlink.
Good afternoon to you, Art, in the Philippines.
To your guest, wherever he is, whatever the case may be.
We're all disembodied to each other.
We're all kind of acting like we're channel sources to each other.
Right.
And what great technology is out there.
Yeah, right.
I listened to George's show on July 7th with guest Pamela Rae Heath with great interest.
And the question I'm about to ask is one I fast-blasted to you earlier, but I don't know if you had time to read it, and I'm sort of dying to know.
What would your guest advise to a person who, and actually, what happens to a person who commits suicide as a way of seeking revenge on a person who wrongs them?
So, for example, a person says, oh, I'll show this person regret and bang.
That is a real glow-in-the-dark, classic theme of punishment.
A whole percentage of suicides are done out of anger, and I'll show you.
And also murder suicides, where the husband takes the children and kills them.
It doesn't kill the wife or the ex-wife, but I'll show you ex-wife.
I have the kids for the weekend, and I'll kill them and then myself.
And that's the ultimate message I can send you, gotcha.
And then, of course, you get on the other side.
It ain't the end of the story.
You weren't executed, essentially.
You didn't execute yourself.
Something continues on after that, and you live with the repercussions of that, the karma of it, and sooner or later, well, it's unfinished business.
Doctor, would you think that people who do the kind of thing you just described are probably believers that it's a big blank, that there's nothing further at all, and that's how they do something like that?
Well, in that book that Pam and I did, I asked the question, the thought experiment, what if we knew on planet Earth, like tomorrow morning, somehow it happened, that there was irrefutable proof that we survive physical death and that there is something like karma?
Or at least the survival of physical death.
How would it change life on Earth for those of us still here?
And in the case of being so So angered, so vengeful that you kill yourself to get back at somebody, to do the ultimate withholding, so to speak, of love and presence, then does that mean that you didn't think there was anything after, or that you don't give a hoot what's after, that you were so consumed by the pain of that moment that it blows past any concern about repercussions or what's going to happen after that?
I think it's a mixed bag.
Some people do that punishment thing, taking in their own life, knowing there's something after that, but what trumps it is the immediate emotional moment.
And in other cases, I don't think they think there's anything else.
It's like, I got nothing to lose, man.
Boy.
All right.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. John Clemo.
Hi.
Hi.
Good evening, Art.
Good evening, Doctor.
Hi.
First, Art, I'd like to say, Congratulations to you and your wife and new family and all the best to you.
You're in my thoughts and prayers all the time because I've been where you are.
But that's not why I called.
I'd like the doctor's opinion about something that I had gone through, which was I had witnessed a presence, an entity, a ghost.
And it actually talked to me without talking to me.
I forget what that's called.
Telepathically.
Yeah, telepathically.
And what was going on was that people were in her space and she was waiting for her husband to die.
And when I told them to move, Everything was fine, because she had been making noises.
Everything was fine, and he passed on without any problem after that.
And I don't quite understand what I witnessed.
This was a long time ago.
This was in the early seventies.
Did you know the person?
No, I'm sorry, he's gone.
Apparently so, it sounded as though he did, yes.
Well, I mean, this sounds kind of clear that he was being engaged in a communication.
He tuned into somebody who was waiting for someone to join him, it sounded like.
And why he was the recipient of it, if he might not know the spirit or the still-living person, I don't know.
Just like the earlier one, the agoraphobic woman with the astronaut dream, but there's not really anything to explain there particularly, I don't think, except again, in a somewhat altered state of consciousness, we open ourselves to tuning to other channels, other frequencies, other wavelengths of the multidimensional universes Possibilities and communicative interactionism and presences of other consciousnesses and seats of consciousness.
And once you've experienced it, it's very hard to have somebody disabuse you of the fact that, God damn, that happened.
And it's realer than real very often.
And it does seem to attest to the fact that some of us are on this side and some of us are on the other side.
And he seemed to be privy to one person communicating to To him about another person, and it seemed to be verified afterwards that there was a smooth descent into it to join.
But by the way, it just made me think that with the extraterrestrial connection and the channeling and so on, that as you know, Art, and many of your listeners know, that the communicative modality of choice for most extraterrestrials in abduction and contactee cases is telepathy.
And even though we're not normally psychic abductees and contactees, We seem to, in that sphere of influence, we seem to be able to automatically be telepathic.
And so we all potentially have this capacity.
So whether it's a telepathic connection across dimensionality between life and death, or between different kinds of beings or densities or modes of consciousness, like with extraterrestrials, I think it's just part of a larger picture of reality that enough of us are experiencing, and more and more of us are experiencing.
But sooner or later, it's going to contribute to a paradigm shift that eventually will back into, slowly and reluctantly, our sciences and our academic and intelligentsia community, who will have to admit that there's something to all these anomalies and inexplicable things, because too many people are experiencing them at a level that is so Meaningful and so undeniable.
I mean... Clearly, clearly doctor, that gap is closing.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. John Clemo.
Hi.
Hello Art.
Hello.
How are you doing?
Okay.
I've been trying to reach you for years and this is a very important that I reached you tonight.
I just told myself I had to reach you tonight.
All right, well you have.
We don't have a lot of time, so go ahead.
Dr. Clemo?
Yes.
Uh, this is a thing.
My mother passed, uh, May 7th in 2005.
She had been ill and, uh, like almost a year later, my father passed.
Yes.
And it's just been really traumatic for me to get through.
Yes.
But I had a dream like two months after my father passed.
Yes.
And my father and I, let me premise say, we weren't really always close until near the time he passed.
Right.
In life.
And I'm 50 now.
And he was standing on the steps in our old living room with his arms crossed and he had a stern look on his face.
Yes.
Then he smiled at me and he said something like, your name stands for something.
And then the smile went away and that was it.
Three nights later, I'm sitting in another dream.
I'm sitting on the same steps, and I can hear my mother is, like, behind me.
She's talking really, really fast, but I couldn't understand a word she was saying.
And I was just sitting there going, yes, yes, I understand, I know, mm-hmm, I know.
Neither one of them committed suicide, but my state of mind right now is just... I don't know what to think of either one of these dreams.
Well, I think it's very important that you have people to talk with, and me, too.
I mean, I'll be in your life any way I can if you want to continue to talk about these things.
You know, it's lonely to have neither parent in your life.
I still have my mother, but she's pretty far gone, and my father's dead.
And sometimes we're given experiences, especially in the dream state or in the Unusual experiences that we don't know what to do with, because science, the church of religion doesn't tell us, the church of science doesn't tell us what to think, you know?
Doctor, how do people get hold of you?
You must have some sort of email address?
Yeah, I've got a website, just www.johnclimo.com.
There's no H in John, J-O-N-K-L-I-M-O.
Right, J-O-N-K-L-I-M-O, right?
www.johnclimo.com.
And there's an email on that, too.
Okay, there's email there, alright.
Let me give that again, and nobody ever gets it right away.
www.john, J-O-N, no H, just J-O-N, K-L-I-M-O dot com.
You get there, and there'll be an email contact point there.
A lot of people are going to contact you, and they're going to have questions for you.
Is our listener still there?
No, no.
We're coming up on a break right now.
Again, I was just feeling, my heart was feeling that, you know, he needs to be continually, have somebody there for him to listen and talk this out more.
The severance going back into the void there of the darkness of the night makes me feel very unsettled.
This is really not so much suicide prevention as it is just compassion, as I felt for you when you told me about your wife dying.
Hold it right there, doctor.
We'll be right back.
This is Coast to Coast AM.
With 24 time zones worldwide.
It's always coming up on 2 a.m.
somewhere, isn't it?
Morning everybody, I'm Art Bell.
My guest is Dr. John Clemo and his book, I guess the title says it all, Suicide, What Really Happens in the Afterlife.
And something that caller said called a question to mind and that is, I wonder if people under some circumstances decide to die.
I think it's true.
I think they do.
And I think I have evidence and we'll be right back.
As with that caller we had a little while ago, you so frequently hear, I mean we hear
all the time that a husband or a wife will pass away and then in very short order the
partner also passes away.
It happens very quickly and it happens very frequently and when my wife passed away I went into kind of a shock state and I had already lost some weight which I had wanted to lose from my back but I'm telling you I went from 240 pounds down to around 200 and then Ramona passed and I quickly slid to 185 and even after I got here to the Philippines I still kept going down and I got down below 180 and I began to scare myself and things got better for me.
Life took on reason to be and I'm back up now to around 190.
But I wonder, Doctor, if you think it's true that people actually make perhaps a subconscious Yes, I absolutely believe that.
Absolutely.
As a psychologist, I've been involved with doctoral students who've done research, and I've done my own research, about what's called the higher self.
The part of us that's in us that's more than just our ego or our normal personality or our bodies.
And that higher self part of us is maybe connected to To a larger wisdom and a larger understanding and a larger connectedness to the larger reality of things.
And it's that part of us that might act in a kind of bittersweet way sometimes, like the higher self says, OK, the normal embodied day-to-day me, there's really not much more point to be here this time.
I think I'm going to come back next time as an Indian or I'm going to go over the other side for a while and cool my heels or whatever.
But you're not just the part of you that's sitting here listening to me.
on the radio, and so that might be the frame of reference of the locus of decision-making for some people.
We say the unconscious.
Well, you know, the Freudian unconscious or even cognitive psychology's notion of the unconscious is a kind of diffuse and limited and not very well understood.
But for me, the higher self is more like the angels of our better selves, the kind of a god within or the transpersonal part of us that may make those decisions, and it may have an omniscient or a larger understanding of things that may be up in the kind of out
of body so to speak almost like your spirit guide unto yourself that's looking
what's going on in this life and can see up ahead can precognitively see
when it's going to happen how many more breaths you have how many more how
much more work you have to do like a near-death experience person near in the
near-death experience being told by a spirit you're not ready yet
It's not your time yet.
You've got more to do.
You've got to go back, you know, to the office, to the school room.
Yes.
All right.
All right.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. John Clemo.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
Hi, John.
Hi.
Hi, there.
By the way, Art, your woman screener is very helpful and very courteous.
Oh, good.
Good.
I'm a third-generation medium.
I also have a background in medical writing, so I'm kind of left-brained, too, but I've had a lot of experience in working with my clients, communicating with suicides who talk, well, they don't exactly talk about reincarnation, but they give me information about their future plans for coming back.
Not all of them are able to do that, but it's not unusual.
What I've found is they don't consciously, or let's say, there's a feeling to me that they are not allowed to actually talk about this.
Maybe they just don't want to, I'm not sure, but I get more of an empathic or, let's say, a psychic sense.
It's like, what they're not saying is important.
And there's one particular instance where they seem to be mildly obsessive or very intensely focused on a particular child relative, usually.
That's my clue that this is the one that they're going to be coming back through, that this child will be either a parent or a grandparent to them.
And so they, in a way, act as a spirit guide to that child, and kind of guiding them through their lifetime to the point where that child can be in the right place to produce a body, or maybe the next generation that will produce a body for this individual.
And in one case, This gentleman had committed suicide at 24.
He left a four-year-old daughter behind, and I was doing the reading for his sister and his mother.
I knew nothing about any of this.
It's just that he came through, and I thought it was interesting after the fact that it was mentioned to me that he had a four-year-old daughter left behind, because he kept talking about the two nieces that he left.
One in particular he was very focused on, and in this case I got the sense that You know, like I said, another thing about the confused people, you know, when they cross over, they're confused Alzheimer's or dementia.
I kind of disagree with you on that one, because it's not unusual in my experience that those who've had a little bit of dementia or even severe Alzheimer's, when they cross over, they're still confused for some time.
And I've had contact with, if you want to call it other souls, Who work with these people to help them remember.
They actually almost do therapy on the other side.
Talking with them, guiding them around to help them to remember about where they came from on that other side, because we all originate over there anyway.
Help them to remember.
In that contact that the doctors had, they would then still appear confused at that point, right?
Pardon me?
I said they would appear confused at that point.
He said they frequently expressed confusion.
Right, but it can go on for some time.
The Alzheimer's case I referred to was a particular case study, a three-volume study of a husband and wife, where she had already had taste of the other side and was prepared to go over there.
That's unusual.
I agree with you that often, in cases of murder as well as suicide, there's a rest period.
You're kind of hospitalized.
You're kind of awakened with warm milk and cookies and gently brought back like, hey, there is survival.
You are still here.
And often the etheric double, the higher organizational fields that are responsible for the physical, when the physical is so blown apart or is so traumatically murdered or otherwise taken or ravaged by disease, it does take some reparative time on the other side.
I absolutely agree with that.
But I do want to point out, at the same time that I'm saying all this, that if you're still on the line, that's invaluable what you have to offer, and I wish we had Dr. Heath and I had you as a resource, also, because you're that wonderful combination of thoughtful and clear-headed and also have the capacity to mediate communication and have insights of a psychic and mediumistic nature.
Very interesting.
Lorraine Wildcardline, you're on the air with Dr. John Clemo.
Hi.
Yes, good morning.
Good morning.
This program of yours is the best I've ever heard, so God bless you and thank you all.
I just have a comment and a sort of question.
My comment is that I have a brother who is schizophrenic, and years ago I came to realize through him that the voices that he, and I assume a lot of other schizophrenics hear, certainly are real voices that come from the other side, whereas a lot of medical doctors think it's just quote-unquote voices in their head.
Yes.
The question I have, and it's Something that may not be definitively answered is that a dear woman that I know who was a wonderful artist, and I just adored her, committed suicide over a year ago, and I happen to have met since then a woman who is psychic, and I'm wondering whether I should try to contact her or not.
I almost feel like Uh, it's selfish of me to do that, but, uh, and I'm wondering, should I maybe just pray on her behalf?
Uh, the reason I'm a little concerned about, uh, trying to contact her is that I might get involved in something and she needs to go grow on her own and I need to grow on my own.
And incidentally, my schizophrenic brother had told me probably 25 years ago that when you leave to the next life, You're going to be back in class again.
I'll take the answers off the air.
Thank you very much.
Oh, boy, there's an awful lot in what you're saying.
I've worked with clinicians, other clinicians, who began as experts on multiple personality disorder, now called dissociative identity disorder, sub or alter personality, supposedly self-generated Who have reached the point that they are convinced that at least some of the sub-world personalities of some of their clients are separate autonomous beings, who usually identify themselves that way.
And Ralph Allison is one, who is a leading researcher in this area, who eventually got out of the clinical area, and pathologizing people, psychopathologizing people, in order to use mediums to communicate to what he used to think were part of his clients, but are really separate.
Wilson Von Dusen is another mental health professional who saw that a lot of the state mental hospital lifetime clients, incarcerated people, their stories of entities and of voices that they took to be separate from themselves was very similar to Swedenborg's own experiences of being taken out of body toward the end of his life and shown heaven and hell and purgatory, fascinating material, and that really many of those subpersonalities supposedly were really communications from the spirit realm and that some schizophrenic and other hallucinated or clairaudiently heard voices or psychic beings that don't have embodiment, physical embodiment, are really
are really uh... uh... as my apology and and uh...
uh...
he did the the schizophrenia can be uh...
can be a uh...
can can be uh... it can look like a negative uh... negative thing to be
saddled with and it is uh... in many ways but but in a sense they're more porous
There's more of a permeable membrane.
They don't have selective capacity to damp down the incoming, booming, buzzing confusion from their own unconscious, and also sometimes from an external realm beyond their own psychic material.
I'll tell you that's one giant can of worms.
First Time Color Line, Time Short.
You're on with Dr. Clemo Heine.
Hi, Art.
Hi, Dr. Clemo.
I've got to say, this is a rare opportunity.
I normally work Monday through Thursday, and I get to listen to George every night, and I've tried eternally to call in.
But tonight, for some reason, this is a situation that had to be in.
You're right.
OK.
I was listening to Art earlier talking, and this has been a burning question.
My grandma died about 14 years ago, OK?
And Art brought this up earlier about his wife dying and him almost committing suicide.
It's a whole long story of what happened after my grandma died.
I was closer to her than I was to my parents.
They lived across the street from me.
And anyway, like I said, that's a whole other long story.
But I was really close to my grandma, and after she died, I contemplated the thought of killing myself.
But the fear in me was that, in the reincarnation thing, that I might miss getting to see her once I died.
Okay?
You get what I'm trying to ask there?
Very clearly, yes.
If I killed myself, then... Yes.
And I even have that fear right now that... I'm 47, and, you know, I've got friends that have died already that are my age and whatnot.
And my fear is that, you know, 14 years later, has she been reborn somewhere possibly?
Or what's my chances of being able to see my grandma in the afterlife?
That's pretty much unknown.
She may have reincarnated, she may still be there, she may be unavailable, but now she might have moved on and wherever she is and no longer in contact back with the Earth plane or with you.
But love really conquers all.
It is the key link, I think, in the larger reality.
We are going to reunite with loved ones.
It may not be immediate in the next lifetime, it may be, but I do believe that.
That's my My great wish, and from a lot of the evidence I get from this kind of research, that it's not irrevocably severed and kept apart.
So I think you can probably plan on that, but when exactly when it is, but if we're supposedly immortal spirits or something like that, then we can have the patience for it.
By the way, the previous caller, when he said, should I be contacting this person?
On the other side, I think it's important.
I think the prayer, having good positive thoughts, meditating, sending love, would be about the limit of it, because you can't get caught up in that kind of this life, next life project, and it can pull you away from this life's work.
Okay.
Wild Card Line, you've been waiting a while.
You're on the air with Dr. Klimo.
Hi.
Hello.
Yes, a quick question.
If it's possible to opt out of this earthly plane, then it should also be possible to opt out of the whole shebang, you know, to escape the cycle of birth and death completely, and gain just pure oblivion, which we're calling the Big Sad Void, if that's what you want.
I question whether you can totally opt out of everything, as you say.
I think you can get out of the karmic or the reincarnational wheel.
A cycle by reaching what's called enlightenment, or actually, you know, no longer needing to incarnate or go through this trial and error, soul slow growth learning, because you sort of arrived.
But that's not going into oblivion, that's going into maybe connection to kind of God consciousness, or having arrived and then really being a bodhisattva, or a helper to others, in the flesh or out of the flesh.
And I think that's what we're all bound for eventually, evolutionarily.
But to opt out of everything and just say, I don't want reincarnation, I don't want anything, I want to choose that.
That's a form of maybe meta or ultimate suicide, that I don't want any more chances.
I want to opt out of everything, everything, everything, and I don't think you can do that if you're kind of part of God in human form, in the flesh or out of the flesh, whether you have that option, because God isn't going to kill itself, or part of itself, or allow that to happen to its own offspring, so to speak.
All right, you're very welcome.
And good luck, I guess.
Wild Card Line 3, you're on the air with Dr. Clemo in not a lot of time.
Yes, Art.
Yes.
Yes, hey, thanks for taking my call.
By the way, that Highwaymen album, it's a great album, the whole thing is.
Oh, it is, yeah.
Except for that last line where Johnny says he could come back as a single drop of rain.
Talk about an existential tangent there.
Well, there are those who believe that anyway.
I wanted to ask the doctor, he said back in the beginning of the interview, there were some, he experienced some channeling instances that he believed to be authentic.
And I guess the rest of his experiences of channeling instances, he couldn't really put them in the file as authentic.
But I wanted to ask, doctor, What specifically led you to your belief that these instances were authentic?
In other words... Alright, we don't have any more time, but that's a very good question.
Doctor?
Yeah, evidential messages.
Messages that seem to be evidence that they're from the sources that they claim to be from, which is normally mediumistic, because how do you know whether it's a Pleiadian that's really talking or not?
How are you ever going to know that, really?
At least at present.
But with a discarnate human spirit, If it identifies itself, and you knew it when it was alive, and it gives you detailed information that only it could know, and nobody else could know, maybe you didn't even know, that seems to be rather evidential, that it's a mediumistic form of channeling that has proof of survival of physical death.
But a great deal of channeling, I think the jury just stays out, as I put it.
I stay agnostic about it.
I'm not going to say it isn't, or it is, and we don't have the ultimate litmus test to prove it one way or the other.
All right, you are.
Well, that's a pretty stringent requirement, so listen, I cannot tell you how much I have enjoyed doing this program.
I've been wanting to do a program like this for a very long time, Doctor, so it's been a pleasure having you on the air with me.
We'll do it again sometime.
In the meantime, I hope people will take a look at your book, Suicide, what really happens in the afterlife, and of course, your website.
Doctor, thank you.
Thank you for the opportunity, Art, very much.
I look forward to talking with you again.
Good night, my friend.
Okay, folks, that's it for this weekend, and we return you now, or shortly, that is, to the weekday show.
George will, of course, carry on.
It's been an absolute pleasure and, as always, an honor to guide you through the weekend.
Remember, you can get hold of me by email.
Love to hear from you.
I'm Art Bell.
That's A-R-T-B-E-L-L at MindSpring.com.
Until we meet next weekend from Southeast Asia.
Can you believe that?
The other side of the world.
Manila in the Philippines.
I'm Art Bell.
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