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Aug. 19, 2006 - Art Bell

02:40:59

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Joshua P. Warren - Non-Human Apparitions

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01:03:39

joshua p warren

01:12:17

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the Southeast Asian capital city of the Philippines, 7,107 islands, Manila, I'm Art Bell.
		Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, whatever the case may be, wherever you are across all these wonderful time zones on our globe.
		It's great to be here.
		This is coast-to-coast, actually continent-to-continent, worldwide coast-to-coast AM.
		So it is, of course, as usual, my honor, my pleasure to be escorting you through the weekend, and a very good weekend it's going to be.
		Listen, I've been missing open lines, so we'll do a lot of them this hour.
		In addition to that, next weekend, I have asked for a full night of open lines.
		So next weekend, we'll do a whole open line segment, and I will have a special line up, as we so frequently have done over the years when we have open lines.
		And this is what it's going to be.
		It's going to be people who believe, that means all of you, people who believe they have experienced conscious, that's the key word here, conscious slips or even travel to parallel or even non-parallel universes.
		We don't really know what the nature of another universe is, do we?
		We do, however, know that a lot of people have claimed to have traveled to these places.
		Now, I don't want to get it mixed up with people who went to sleep and had a neat dream.
		All right.
		So I do believe there are other universes, and I think most modern theoretical physicists certainly think there are other universes.
		So we'll look for people who have traveled to them and perhaps descriptions of what they're like.
		That'll be next weekend.
		Now, at the moment, at this very moment, I would imagine, I'm being inducted into the Nevada Broadcasters Hall of Fame.
		And I would like to thank Karen Jackson, who is there accepting for me, all those who nominated me and so forth and so on, for those who have been continuous broadcasters or broadcasters for 20 years or better or something like that.
		At any rate, I am being inducted, so it's a great honor.
		And Karen, thank you for accepting for me.
		I'm about as far away as you can be.
		If you look at, I think, New York, and then you spin the globe here in Manila, we're probably just about exactly the other city.
		Unless it's out in the Indian Ocean somewhere, we're exactly, exactly the other side of the world right here.
		Now, the webcam shot this night is of, actually it's daytime here, but the webcam shot is one I took the other night of Makati, which is Metro Manila.
		And what I did is I went up to our roof here in the condo for two reasons.
		One, to get an idea of what the vista is like, a floor and a half or a floor actually above me.
		And in that photograph, you can clearly see what it is like, at least in one direction.
		That is Makati, Metro Manila.
		And that is as seen from my roof.
		Now, I was up there for two reasons, actually.
		The other reason was to survey for the possibility of an antenna up there.
		Now, that's about 200 feet up in the air, folks.
		And if I can get an antenna mounted up there by hook or crook or peso, I'm going to do exactly that.
		So I was up kind of surveying the roof and took that photograph opportunistically.
		All right, let's look briefly at the world.
		Never a very pleasant thing to do.
		Israeli commandos raided a Hezbollah stronghold deep into Lebanon on Saturday, engaging in a fierce gun battle, and the Lebanese government threatened to halt any further troop deployments to protest what UN officials are calling a violation of the six-day-old ceasefire.
		Israel said the raid was launched to stop arms smuggling from Iran and Syria to the militant Shiite fighters.
		An Israeli officer was killed during the raid, two soldiers wounded, one of them seriously.
		An arrest, boy, this was a wild one, wasn't it?
		Came out of nowhere that initially brought relief to the family of Jean-Benet Ramsey, has unleashed an onslaught of unwelcome attention.
		And the girl's father is not happy about this at all, according to his lawyer.
		You can imagine the press is right back on it.
		Coalition troops have clashed with insurgents in two battles Saturday in Afghanistan.
		Fighting there that left four U.S. and two Afghan soldiers dead, six other Americans wounded.
		So it's still going on there.
		More than, this is incredible to me, more than 100 young women who expressed interest in joining the U.S. military in the past year were apparently preyed upon sexually by their recruiters.
		Women were raped on recruiting office couches, assaulted in government cars, groped en route to entrance exams.
		In fact, a six-month Associated Press investigation found more than 80 military recruiters were, in fact, disciplined last year for sexual misconduct with potential enlistees.
		The cases occurred all across branches of the military and in all regions of the country.
		Calling their lives blessed, more than a dozen young women and girls from polygamist families in Utah spoke at a rally Saturday, calling for a change in state laws there and the right to live the life and religion they choose because, quote, of our beliefs.
		Many of our people have been incarcerated, had their basic human rights stripped of them, namely life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
		This, according to a 19-year-old identified only as Tyler, I didn't come here to ask for your permission to live my beliefs.
		I shouldn't have to.
		That's a tough one.
		I wonder how a lot of you feel about that.
		The religion, or at least a lot of it there, does believe that more than one wife is perfectly appropriate.
		And yet they live in a country where most of the people, of course, do not feel it's at all appropriate.
		So what do you do?
		Japan has suspended imports of U.S. long grain rice following a positive test for some just trace amounts of genetically modified rice not yet approved for human consumption.
		Japan's health ministry imposed the suspension Saturday after being informed that U.S. federal officials did, in fact, find trace amounts of the unapproved strain had been discovered in commercially available long grain rice.
		All right.
		That's the situation in the world.
	Well, not entirely.
	In a moment, we'll have, as Paul would say, the rest of the story.
	Damned as things happen on talk radio.
	I just had a talk with my board op during the break, and it seems like last week I had a caller who asked a question that frankly stumped me, of course.
	It was about gel bras.
	Now, as you all know, any sort of liquid is absolutely banned on carry-on luggage onto an aircraft.
	And so she called me up and said, well, hey, Art, I know it's silly or something like that, but what about gel bras?
	Gel bras.
	And how in the hell am I going to answer that, right?
	So I said, I have no idea.
	Well, I guess Ian picked up on that.
	They had a few jokes about it.
	The airlines apparently said, no, no, no, they're not banned, or somebody called the airlines and asked if they were banned, and I guess they're not banned.
	And then, lo and behold, a short while later, the Homeland Security people called and said, oh, come to think of it, yes, they are.
	So now we need not fear exploding breasts on airliners, I guess.
	My God.
	Sorry about that.
	I'm sure if that had not been brought up on the program, I'm sure that restriction wouldn't apply.
	Fairly sure.
	All right, well, let's look at some of the rest of the news before we take some calls.
	Seoul, South Korea.
	South Korea has revealed that it is continuing to observe the actions of North Korea, but declined to comment on media reports that the North is apparently getting ready for an imminent nuclear test.
	Quote, we are monitoring movements in North Korea in preparation for any possibility of a nuclear test, end quote.
	That's Lee Jong-joon, who is with the South Korean Foreign Ministry, speaking to the AP.
	He said that though they are observing closely, he could not comment directly on the report regarding the test.
	ABC News quoted a senior military official as saying they suspected an imminent test since there were suspicious vehicle movements near the test site.
	Also, an unnamed senior department official said, quote, it is a view of the intelligence community that a test is indeed a real possibility.
	In July, North Korea conducted several missile tests, many of which ended in abject failure.
	But analysts feel the main aim of the test was to get the U.S. to the talking table.
	Many of the experts have been concerned about the possible options on the part of North Korea, including nuclear tests or other forms of military provocation.
	Now, this, of course, brings on echoes of Ed Dame's long-time prediction of the next nuclear explosion being in North Korea.
	Looks like he may be correct.
	Maybe.
	Because a certain Iranian politician is predicting some sort of catastrophic, his word, catastrophic event on August 22nd.
	So it may be a race to see who does it first, the North Koreans, or wouldn't it be a shock if Iran were to light off a nuke?
	Anyway, the world is quickly becoming a far more dangerous place in more ways than one.
	In a rural, impoverished area of South Africa, a very scary outbreak is occurring, primarily among AIDS patients, a type of TB that is extremely drug-resistant.
	Now, this TB would not be restricted just to TB patients, but once on the loose, of course, well, you can imagine the rest.
	How dangerous is it?
	Of 53 patients who have this form of lung infection in a research study, 52 have died.
	That's 52 of 53.
	Two of the people who died were, in fact, healthcare workers.
	A doctor on staff suspects it may have killed other hospital workers who sought TB treatment at private clinics after becoming infected.
	It does mean that these people are virtually untreatable, according to the doctor, Dr. Tony Moll, the AIDS treatment director at the Church of Scotland Hospital in South Africa.
	Moll spoke to ABC News by phone saying that's why we had the high death rate.
	There was simply nothing we could do in terms of offering medication.
	The discovery was made when Moll and several other researchers collected sputum or lung secretions from about 1,540 patients who had visited hospitals between January of 2005 and March of 2006.
	35% of them, or 536 patients, had, in fact, TB.
	Another one, a once very rare drug-resistant germ, now appears to cause more than half of all skin infections treated in the U.S. emergency rooms.
	This is, according to researchers who documented the superbug's startling spread in the general population, many victims mistakenly thought they simply had a spider bite or something that wouldn't heal.
	Not a drug-resistant staph bacteria.
	Only a decade ago, these germs were hardly ever seen outside of hospitals and nursing homes.
	Doctors also were caught off guard.
	Most of them unwittingly prescribed medicines that simply don't work against that bacteria.
	Quote, it's time for physicians to realize just how prevalent it is, said Dr. Gregory Moran of the Olive View UCLA Medical Center, who led that study.
	Another author, Dr. Rachel Gorowitz of the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, said, I think no one was aware of the extent of the problem.
	Now, again, this is a skin disease, this skin-eating disease that is once again returned.
	All right, I'll tell you what we're going to do.
	We're going to take some phone calls about right now, and we're going to see how many we can fit in between now and the top of the hour.
	Again, next weekend, we're going to do a whole open lines program, and we're going to have a special line open for those people out there, those of you out there who feel you have traveled consciously.
	That doesn't mean I had a dream, Art.
	That means consciously traveled for even a short period of time to another universe, parallel or otherwise.
	At the top of this next hour, Joshua Warren is going to be here, and we're going to be talking about ghosts.
	Among other things, incidentally, ghosts or pet ghosts, or ghosts that at one time were pets.
	Now, I'm a very, very, very firm believer, as you know.
	I've got two of my cats here, Abbydos and Yeti.
	And if you're a cat person, if you're an animal person and you look into their little eyes and you live with them 24 hours a day, there is no question they have souls.
	And I know that will disturb a lot of people out there.
	But if they have souls, as I believe they do, because they have every personality trait you could ascribe to a human being, save talking really is not a personality trait, is it?
	Otherwise, jealousy, happiness, sadness, depression, joy, playfulness, I believe self-awareness.
	All of these things are present in animals, dogs and cats, and probably other animals that we don't live as closely with, so we simply would not notice.
	But they have souls, and if they have souls, then why would they not be every bit as capable of becoming a ghost upon leaving this life as any other mammal?
	And I'm not even sure it's restricted to mammals.
	All right, let's ply the lines and see what we find.
	Wildcard line.
	Hello there.
	You're on the air.
unidentified		Thank you for taking my call.
unidentified		It's Jeff from St. Louis, Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Well, first, one quick thing I've been meaning to ask you.
unidentified		Did you ever get my email regarding the back doctors and then the Philippines?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Regarding the what in the Philippines?
unidentified		Back doctors in the Philippines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, I'm not getting it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The what doctors?
unidentified		When you posted the pictures of your new wife, I sent you an email asking if they have good back doctors in the Philippines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, back doctors, back doctors.
unidentified		That was supposed to be a joke.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		I do see now.
		Thank you very much.
		Actually, I've had a couple of bad days here with my back.
		My back is a lot better because I've lost some weight.
		But just sort of skipping over the intended humor in your comment, it's been generally pretty good.
		Save the last couple of days, my back has been pretty good.
unidentified		All right.
		That's good to know.
		And then my main comment is when I was in the hospital last summer, for minor stuff, it wasn't anything serious.
		I came up with an idea to build a 1-1-1 scale of a time portal model.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A time portal model?
unidentified		Yeah, it's going to be interactive.
		You can input commands and all that stuff.
		It'll light up and everything, but it won't actually work.
		It'll be like a video game.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh?
		Well, good, because most of the other people that I've had communication with regarding time travel over the years are now among the missing.
		Principally, of course, Dr. David Anderson.
		Boy, he was quite a guy.
		If anybody knows where Dr. David Anderson has disappeared to, I sure would like to know.
		And, of course, others, as you're well aware, who have talked of having or about ready-to-use time machines, these people have just gone.
		I mean, they really are gone.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Is this art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is art indeed.
unidentified		Art?
		Wow.
		I can't believe I'm talking to you.
		You're on the other side of the world.
		Hey, this is Roger, aka Slow Poke, trucker out here, trucking across Nebraska.
		And before I get to my thoughts on polygamy, just want to let you know that I have been a longtime listener since I started driving trucks back in 1990.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sir.
		Listen, let's jump on polygamy, as it were.
		Does life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, in your opinion, include polygamy?
unidentified		Well, Art, I just want to say that I don't think it would be the lifestyle that I would choose, but I do believe that this is a free country and we have the right to freedom of religion.
		And I believe that the Mormon people that practice polygamy, they should be allowed to do that.
		Because that's their religion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sir, listen, I really do think that I agree with you.
		I certainly don't agree with the concept of polygamy.
		I think that one woman is more than sufficient to attempt to handle at any given time.
		However, if they feel that it's part of their religious belief and it really is a strong conviction to the point of a religious belief, then who are we to be interfering with them?
		It's not as though they want us dead.
		It's not as though they want to drive airplanes into our buildings.
		They simply want to be able to have more than one wife.
		So, yeah, I can't think of any compelling reason, frankly, not to.
		east of the Rockies.
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, howdy, this is Bernard of Wilmington, Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I wanted to bring something to your attention.
		I was listening to the radio here this weekend, and I heard a story I haven't heard anywhere else about David Copperfield living in the Bahamas in some group of islands.
		Supposedly, he found in his little group of islands a fountain of youth.
		He hired scientists to check it out and stuff, and I was wondering if you heard anything about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, sir, I have not.
		However, I would like at this moment, if I can do so, to place an order for several liters.
		You see, I have to put it over here.
		Several liters of whatever it is that he's found.
unidentified		Well, he says he claims that dead leaves that fall into this water miraculously turn green again, and ailing and dead insects come back to life when they fall in the water.
		And they said that they're not letting anybody swim in it or drink in it yet until he has his private scientists figure out what's going on down there.
		If you could check that out on the internet or something, get back to us, let us know what's going on, that'd be great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll let you know.
		Thank you, my friend.
		Thank you.
		In the meantime, you take care.
		We'll take a break here at the bottom of the hour.
		Yeah, several leaders would do.
		Send it on to Manila.
		I'd be glad to supply an address from Manila in the Philippines.
		I'm Art Bell.
		We'll break and do more.
		Stay right where you are.
		In a 2005 poll covering 33 countries, Americans are the least likely, except for the Turkish respondents, to assert that humans developed from an earlier species of any kind of animal.
		Iceland, meanwhile, has an 85% acceptance rating for evolution.
		The blurb on the site for Science magazine is less circumspect about the findings.
		Quote, the acceptance of evolution is lower in the United States than in Japan and or Europe largely because of widespread fundamentalism and the politics of science.
		The fact that science has been politicized in the United States.
		How about that?
		More of all of you in a moment.
		You know, Chris in Cooksville, Illinois, regarding polygamy says, hey, Arnold, I agree with you.
		But, you know, we live in a country where gay couples are denied the right to marry.
		So I'd have to say the Mormons are probably out of luck.
		Well, I don't know ultimately about that, Chris, because we also live in a country where the right to burn the American flag, as nauseating as that prospect is for most of us, has been affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court, right?
		So ultimately, I think when all of this gets to the U.S. Supreme Court, it's probably going to be affirmed.
		Freedom means, according to the court and past decisions, exactly that.
		Freedom means freedom.
		And as long as you're not stomping upon somebody else's foot, apparently the freedom part of it is relatively absolute.
		Let's go to the first time caller line.
		Say howdy.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Well, I'm Brandy from Coita, Oklahoma.
		And I was listening to that one man talk about time machines and time travel.
		And if I had a time machine, I would travel back to the time of King Tut, and that's probably where Dr. Anderson is chilling with King Tut.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would you go to King Tut?
unidentified		Because of the pyramids.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because of the pyramids.
		Well, I think that's a...
		I've also thought heavily about it over the years.
		I would go to the time of Christ.
		There's nothing that I would more like to see for my...
		I watched the Ten Commandments here recently and a couple of others.
		And to have seen all that for yourself, to have seen the parting of the sea, to have seen the healings that are recorded and all the rest of it, would make faith so easy, wouldn't it?
		Trying to gather an absolute faith otherwise is very difficult for me.
		I'm a very hands-on kind of person.
		And so I'm working very hard on this faith business.
		But to have actually seen it, to go back to the time of Christ and to see Christ and to see for yourself what occurred would be, I don't know, absolutely awesome.
		Let's go to the international line and say, yo, you are on the air.
		Hello.
		International line, you're on the air.
		Yes, hello.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Gina from Latinar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, welcome.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		I want to ask you about a shadow man that I saw once.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A shadow man.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you sure it was a man?
unidentified		No, it was a man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you saw a shadow person.
unidentified		I saw a shadow person.
		And I don't know what to say about it.
		And I phoned a medium and asked her what it was.
		And she said it was a relative coming to visit.
		And I wasn't sure.
		So I talked to a different medium.
		And she said it was to get help.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To get help?
unidentified		This was years ago, and I don't know what it was.
		It was a black cloaked figure without some sort of hat, but the cloak and the hat were kind of together.
		It was dark, but I didn't see any facial features.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it was doing independent movement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're sure you were not seeing a shadow or something like that?
unidentified		I tried everything to recreate that, and nothing worked.
unidentified		No, I knew what I saw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		All right.
		Well, you're One of now millions.
		That's a subject actually originally broached on this program, and I suppose years before in other various forums, but certainly it was lit on fire here.
		We obviously live on the planet with other what's the right word?
		I hesitant to say life forums.
		We live on the planet with other spirits of some sort.
		Are they human?
		Were they human?
		I have no idea, none whatsoever.
		But it's obvious that there are others here.
		Now, the shadow person business got started and took hold and has stayed with us.
		And obviously, there's something to it.
		I mean, I've seen these figures myself most frequently caught sort of in the corner of the eye in your peripheral vision, and you can see a quick movement.
		More and more people beginning to report movement in the middle of their vision, not just in peripheral vision, but right in the middle of their vision.
		Beings, frequently, as she pointed out, cloaked in some manner, usually in a dark garment of some sort, frequently moving fast.
		Now, I've thought a lot about it, and I'll tell you what I think.
		I think that we live in an age of computers, most specifically computer monitors, and that after spending enough hours in front of a computer, your eyes, in fact, your brain, begins to get adjusted to the refresh rate of the computer, which is very different than your brain's normal refresh rate, if I can put it that way.
		And that sort of opens a little window that allows you to see for at least a brief period of time into a world that you would otherwise not see into.
		And so you see these strange, unaccountable beings of some sort.
		So I have no idea what to call them.
		And as a result, we've called them shadow people.
		Very, very interesting stuff.
		Let's go to Rose, I think, in Alaska.
		Hello there.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		How are you?
		This is not Rose, but this is a listener from Boston.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can tell it's not Rose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's Joe from Boston, right?
unidentified		I want to talk to you about two subjects, and I want your honest opinion.
		I've never met these women.
		They're Filipino women.
		I've met them.
		I mean, I've never really gotten to talk to them a lot.
		But one of the questions I asked, and my correspondent was one on the Internet, and one is a credit card lady.
		I asked this question.
		I heard you mention it.
		And I tested it.
		I said, is it true, girls, that you people don't stray that much down there?
		You're very dedicated.
		She says, absolutely.
		The girl I know who's separated, they don't believe in divorce.
		They don't like it when they hear about families that are in this country, but they do not stray.
		before I even got into the conversation.
		That was one of the questions I asked them, and I guess you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, divorce is not legal here.
unidentified		No, they separate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's all.
unidentified		Yeah, but she says, we don't stray.
		We don't go out with other people.
		We have a friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, look, there's nothing, Joe, that is universally true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that it occurs.
unidentified		She said that, too.
unidentified		But she says, on the whole, we really don't believe in going against our man when we're talking about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a pretty fair statement, yeah.
unidentified		Now, my last topic is I like your comment on Gonzalez.
		I heard on the news that he's trying to get warrantless searches into people's homes, and I like your comment.
		I know you're a libertarian.
		You're against that, but I wanted to hear your comments on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my comments are simple, and yeah, you're damn right.
		I'm against warrantless searches into people's homes.
		Look, we do have a Constitution.
		We still have a Constitution strained at the edges, though it may be.
		And warrantless searches into people's homes?
		No.
		In fact, I'm not even sure about warrants.
		I think frequently they're obtained under somewhat shady circumstances.
		So warrantless searches?
		Not a chance.
		Not a chance.
		I suppose there's a definite need for warrant searches where they actually have to go to a judge and prove that there is a compelling reason to violate somebody's civil rights.
		But warrantless searches.
		No, that was an easy no, buddy.
		A very easy no.
		First time caller line, you are on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Oh, hi, Art.
		This is Kathy.
		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quite well, Kathy.
unidentified		Quite well.
		I have a story about my son.
		And first off, I want to say that we're, you know, I believe in God, but we haven't gone to church a lot.
		So at the time that he told me the story, he had probably been to church maybe three times.
		And he had asked me, he said, Mom, if I tell you a story, will you think that I'm odd?
		And I said, no, of course not.
		So he started telling me the story.
		And I about drove off the road because we were in our car.
		So when we got back home, I set him down and I had him tell me the whole story.
		It took about an hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't have an hour.
unidentified		I'm going to break this down for you.
		He said that he was on the playground and he kind of went out of his body and he was back at the foot of Christ.
		And he said that he actually saw Christ being crucified.
		And I said, well, how would you know that?
		And as the story went on, he smelled the smells, he felt the wind, and he said it was a feeling that he had never felt before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's going to qualify for exactly, exactly what I'm talking about, or I'm going to try to talk about next week.
		Over the years, we've had a zillion reports of this kind of thing.
		She said that added to it were the smells, the tastes, the sounds of being there during the moment of, or the moments of the crucifixion of Christ.
		So I believe that people have, in fact, traversed briefly, for brief periods of time, other universes, parallel or otherwise.
		They have briefly, for some reason, some slip, some little window in time or space, moved from here to there and experienced other things.
		So That's why next week I'm going to be looking for people who can actually describe for us a conscious movement into another universe.
		And again, just so that we don't have the concern of it having been simply a dream, I inserted the word conscious travel to another universe, conscious travel to another universe.
		So not one night when you went to sleep and had a wild dream, but something that obviously really occurred while you were conscious.
		Now let's try for Rose in Alaska this time.
		Hello, Rose.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		I'm just calling to update you on the village of Hooper Bay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay, yes, please.
unidentified		Governor Murkowski went to the village and declared disaster immediately as he seen the fire and everything else and the houses that went down.
		And everybody's doing good.
		The elders, they're taking care of the elders and, of course, the children.
		And it's getting cold, of course, very fast up here.
		So they're doing things to help them build homes and that sort of thing.
		And the people of Alaska have been very, very helpful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People of Alaska, Rose, are wonderful.
		I want to ask you a question, Rose.
		You sound like you're a native Alaska.
unidentified		I'm a Utic Eskimo.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, an Eskimo.
		Okay, I saw a movie the other night, Rose, that I bet you've seen called Snow Walker.
		Have you seen that?
unidentified		No, I haven't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my gosh.
		Well, you've got to give it a try.
		It ran on one of the movie channels the other night, and again, it's called Snow Walker.
		There was a fire there, and of course, that's a very serious fare, particularly when it gets cold.
		Fire is something definitely to fear in Alaska.
		As you know, I spent three years in Anchorage working for KENI in Anchorage, Alaska, so I learned a lot about Alaska.
		But, God, what a great movie.
		It's kind of one of those, I don't know, not that many people have heard about it kind of movies, but if you see it listed, and I do believe it's running right now, and it's probably going to run around the 23rd to the 26th of this month on one of the movie channels, by all means, catch it.
		It's one of those sleepers that's just incredible.
		It's about a crash that occurs in the Real Outback in Alaska.
		And I don't want to give away the plot, really, but just trust me on this one.
		It's worth seeing.
		Let's go to yet another wildcard line.
		This one in Salt Lake City, Utah.
		You're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		How are you doing?
		First of all, make sure that people know that polygamy is not part of the Mormon faith anymore, but hey, there's fringe groups out there, and let me tell you, they are rot with sexual abuse, and they just discriminate against women where they have no rights.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that could certainly be true in part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But obviously, Dave, there are a number of people who truly believe that polygamy is part of their lifestyle and part of their religion.
unidentified		Well, I was brought up that way.
unidentified		My father brought that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
		There you go.
		So what I was trying to say earlier is if we live in a country where the U.S. Supreme Court can declare that burning a flag is part of the freedoms we enjoy, then probably the pursuit of happiness could be considered to be that of a polymist as well.
unidentified		Well, the women aren't happy.
unidentified		There's no happiness in that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how can you speak for them that way?
unidentified		Because I was with my mother.
unidentified		I saw what she went through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're speaking of one particular case.
unidentified		Have you seen Big Love?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have I seen what?
unidentified		Big Love.
unidentified		It's on HPL.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's what I missed, I guess.
unidentified		You can probably catch it on demand right now, and they're starting to film a new season this year.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm sure you're correct, and I'll try and catch it.
		I'm sure that there are negative aspects to it as well, and there's probably abuse involved in some of it as well.
		But there's nothing absolute, and to name one case, I don't think makes a case completely.
		And again, I know that it's a stretch for many of us to think of polygamy as part of freedom, but it's also a stretch to think of burning the flag as part of freedom.
		And yet it has been declared so, hasn't it?
		Let's go.
		Well, let's see.
		East of the Rockies, we'll go there.
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Thank you kindly for taking my call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		This is Rob from Toronto.
		I've been a listener.
		Actually, I started listening just as soon as George Nari started working full-time during the week.
		What I wanted to talk about, Art, was I was watching a TV program.
		Can I name the channel?
		It was on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		It was on the Discovery Channel.
		And the show is called Daily Planet.
		They were talking about these craft that are twice as big as an American aircraft carrier.
		And they'll be using them in the future.
		And they're completely silent.
		They're going to be using them in the future to transport goods from China to North America and around the world.
		And I was really surprised that George hasn't brought it up or another coast-to-coast listener, they haven't brought that up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I haven't heard about it either, so that's probably why.
		Can you perhaps send me something in print?
		I'd be glad to read about it and then read about it to the audience.
		So you can give me something in print, buddy.
		I'll get it out there.
		Believe me.
		So somebody sent me a photograph earlier that stopped me dead cold in my tracks, and it was a photograph of a triangular object that was exactly, exactly what I saw in the desert with Ramona that day.
		And I'll simply never forget it.
		As far as I was concerned, it was no craft that we certainly had.
		I mean, look, what I saw defied gravity.
		What I saw was utterly silent.
		There was no apparent propulsion system.
		It was large.
		It had to be heavy.
		Could it have been lighter than air?
		Yes.
		I suppose that's one slim possibility, but that certainly was not my impression of what I was seeing.
		What I was seeing, in my opinion, came from elsewhere.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, this is Michael from Indio, California.
unidentified		How are you doing tonight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm fine, Michael.
unidentified		Well, it's not nighttime in the Philippines, I understand.
		I wanted to tell you there was this TV show on last night, Weird Travels, from the Travel Channel, and they were discussing UFOs.
		And there's parts of the world where they're considered UFO hotspots.
		I've seen some video camera footage of what they call a flying humanoid that was reported in Mexico.
		Are you aware of the flying humanoids?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm not.
		Flying humanoids.
		Flying people, in other words.
unidentified		Yeah, but they are considered aliens.
		And there was a report from January 2004.
		This was on a TV special.
		A police officer in Mexico City claimed he was attacked by one, and he fought his way out, and the creature got away.
		He was so scared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Flying humanoids.
		I guess they would be considered alien, wouldn't they?
		All right, we're going to take a break.
		When we come back, Joshua Warren is going to be here, and we're going to be talking about ghosts of various sorts, including the ghosts of pets.
		From Manila in the Philippines, I'm Art Bell.
		It is from Manila in the Philippines.
		How y'all doing?
		Coming up in a moment, Joshua Warren.
		You know, life is short.
		That's something the coroner following my late wife's death pounded into me.
		And boy, is he right about that.
		Life is short.
		And one of the things, no matter what your age is out there right now, no matter where you are listening, one of the very big things since the inception of Coast to Coast AM has been the discussion of ghosts.
		And it seems to me there would be no topic on a program of this sort, or really any other program, not that they all touch on it, or that many of them do, should cover that would be more important than ghosts.
		Because I guess we all want to know, is this it?
		Is this all there is?
		Or is there, in fact, something that follows?
		Do we really have an immortal soul that either goes onward or is manifested in some manner as a ghost here on earth or whatever?
		So ghosts have been a fascination for me.
		Well, always.
		And of course, this year, as always, I will do a show on Halloween, Ghost Ghost AM.
		Coming up in a moment, Joshua Warren wrote his first book at age 13.
		His first book at 13.
		Since then, he's had six more books, including Haunted Asheville, The Evil in Asheville, and his latest book, How to Hunt Ghosts.
		Joshua is the president of his multimedia productions company, Shadowbox Enterprises LLC.
		He's also the founder and president of the Paranormal Research Team, L-E-M-U-R, that would be the League of Energy Materialization and Unexplained Phenomena Research.
		In addition, each January, Warren produces and hosts an interactive paranormal conference.
		In a moment, we'll talk about ghosts.
unidentified		The Evil in Asheville.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		My mom is in Asheville, North Carolina, so certainly he would not have been writing about her.
		Joshua Warren, welcome to Coast to Coast AM or back to, I should say.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		It's certainly my pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great to have you here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was, I think, all the way back in 2001 we last spoke, correct?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Joshua, what's special about North Carolina?
		Why haunted Asheville?
		What's special about Asheville?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, Asheville here in the western part of the state is in the middle of the Blue Ridge Mountains, and according to geologists, these are probably the oldest mountains in the entire world.
		So right off the bat, you have layer upon layer of history here.
		I mean, these mountains were once higher than the Rockies, and they've just been worn down to now the highest peak still east of the Mississippi is over 6,000 feet tall.
		And there's also something else quite peculiar about Asheville because if you start here and you draw a line heading east, you pass through the Brown Mountain Range where the mysterious Brown Mountain lights are seen, and then you hit an area called the Devil's Tramping Ground, this barren area where nothing at all has grown for many years, and there's stories about the devil sort of walking in circles and planning against mankind.
		And eventually, if you keep drawing that line east, you get to the coast, and that is where the first English settlement was set up in 1590, now known as the Lost Colony, because they all disappeared.
		And then that area on the coast is also known as the graveyard of the Atlantic because of so many ships that have sunk there.
		And if you extend that line all the way out into the Atlantic, finally you hit the island of Bermuda, the top corner of the Bermuda Triangle.
		And so there's some mysterious alignment, apparently, that is between Asheville and so many other places where paranormal phenomena occur.
		And so I'm certainly lucky to be native here and Have lived here my entire life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Joshua, we have areas of the ocean that are completely devoid of life.
		And I think science is pretty well determined.
		The reason for that is most of the toxic chemicals that we're dumping into the Mississippi that ultimately go down into the Gulf and at least produce some of these areas that are devoid of life.
		But on land, I had not heard of such an area, and it would seem to me science would be very, very interested in what could possibly cause an area of no growth whatsoever.
		Has anybody looked at that to try and understand why?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've never seen any really serious in-depth study, but at this point, I mean, the most likely sort of logical answer, if you want to use Occam's razor, is that at one point in time, there may have been some sort of a system in place where horses would walk in a circle around a mill, and there were traces of salt that were dissolved in that area for many, many years, and that maybe the salt there had prevented any long-term growth.
		But there's no proof that ever happened.
		Otherwise, I've only heard the people who have visited the site leave scratching their heads.
		And so we really don't have any idea why this barren circle exists.
		And you can see why so many people think it may have something to do with a more spiritual or energy-like anomaly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Joshua, what is a ghost?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, according to my definition, and I produced this definition after looking at many, many others and trying to take into consideration everything, a ghost is some paranormal aspect of the physical form and or mental presence that appears to exist apart from the original physical form.
		Now, that may seem like a tedious definition, but it's certainly necessary to account for the broad spectrum of phenomena reported.
		And that word appears is especially significant because that shows that the experience of seeing a ghost is something that we cannot necessarily always differentiate from a subjective hallucination.
		And so I myself am interested in looking at the subjective experiences, but I'm even more intrigued by seeing what relationship they might have to something in the external or objective environment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it your view that a ghost was once a living thing, whether it be an animal or a human being?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		In some cases, certainly.
		But the problem with that is that we have ghosts of inanimate objects that are reported as well.
		I mean, you have ghost ships like the flying Dutchman around the Cape of Good Hope, or we have the ghosts of stagecoaches as well as the horses that are pulling them.
		We have ghost cars.
		And so we certainly should never limit our idea of ghosts simply to something that was at one time living.
		And you find that some ghosts appear to be interactive, conscious, aware, unpredictable.
		Other ghosts seem just the opposite, very redundant, very predictable, non-aware, non-interactive, almost like an imprint being replayed like a loop or some sort of an electromagnetic signature on a tape recording, say.
		And so these are two distinct, different types of ghosts.
		And yet, when both manifest, we find the same types of signatures in the objective environment when, in fact, there is something that we can measure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, now wait.
		The same type of signature.
		Now, whether it's an inanimate object or it was an apparently once-living thing, you say you find the same kind of signatures.
		What kind of signatures are you talking about?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, I am especially intrigued by electrostatic charges that seem to build up at the time these things occur.
		And indeed, if I were only looking at the energy fields that I could measure, I, based upon that, could not directly tell you if it was living or non-living.
		And so it makes me, right off the bat, question the boundary between living things and non-living things.
		I mean, after all, we are all essentially composed of the same element.
		But the electrostatic and the electromagnetic signatures are the ones that seem to be most prevalent and most reliable.
		For example, I can take electrostatic generators like a Wimschurst machine or a Van de Graaff machine and produce hundreds of thousands of volts, which are actually quite safe to experiment with because amperage is really where the charges,
		and we do it all the time in a laboratory, create not only three-dimensional light forms, but you can move objects at a distance without any physical connection.
		You can give a human the sensation of physical touch.
		You can give that person cold chills, make that person's hair stand on end.
		I mean, you can basically create all of these earmarks that we associate with a ghostly manifestation by utilizing electrostatic charges.
		And once an electrostatic charge moves, well, then it becomes an electromagnetic wave.
		And so you could pretty much say that electrostatic and electromagnetic are more or less different sides of the same type of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it sounds like you've done a little on the technical side of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So have you done actual investigation where you've gone into the field and measured an electrostatic charge in an area where there was some sort of manifestation going on at the time?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Time and time again, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Time and time again.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it you use, Joshua, to measure this?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there is no such thing as a quote-unquote ghost meter.
		And so right off the bat, any reliable paranormal investigation team will take in every single Tool that that team can find in order to measure every aspect of the environment because, right off the bat, you have to know what the normal conditions are so you can weigh something paranormal or anomalous against it.
		But the things that I find react most frequently at areas where hauntings are occurring or something ghostly are simple electrostatic field meters.
		And once you get over 1,000 volts, of course this is a DC electrostatic charge, in an area where there is no objects around and there is nothing that you can find changing in that environment.
		Well then you start seeing something interesting happen measuring that alone.
		Then you start looking at the electromagnetic changes.
		And I mean devices such as there's one I enjoy employing called a tri-field natural EM meter.
		It will show you when there are changes or shifts happening at a very, very small electrical scale or on a small electrical scale at a very tiny level.
		And those are the things that I enjoy employing most and yet at the same time there are tools that the average person can retrieve from his or her house and use for a very broad general investigation that will also yield some results to tell you if maybe it's worthy of further research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For example?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of my favorite devices to actually measure electrostatic anomalies is a simple fluorescent bulb.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		You see, if you take a fluorescent bulb and you bring it into an area where there is a buildup of electrostatic charge, by simply holding this thing in your hand, it will start to glow and flicker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's absolutely correct, yes.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, now the ends should not be attached to anything at all because all that matters is having a flow of charge going through the gas inside the bulb.
unidentified		That's right.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Now, it takes a little bit more charge for this to happen than, of course, you could measure if you had one of these devices specifically geared for that purpose.
		But that's the best thing the average person can use.
		Aside from that, if you want to measure electromagnetic or magnetic anomalies, well, you know, a compass, of course, is always supposed to point north.
		If it doesn't point north or it starts spinning or doing something weird, well, there's probably a magnetic anomaly there.
		And you can also just turn on an AM radio to a blank frequency, and if there's some sort of electromagnetic interference, well, you're going to hear that on the band as well.
		And so I really do my best to try to look at different types of basic tools that are affordable and available to the average person that you can use to investigate these things so that if you have enough there that makes you feel that it's worthy of further research, well, then you can decide to invest the extra money and learn even more about your phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, it absolutely makes sense.
		A fluorescent light would act exactly as you suggest.
		An AM radio would certainly indicate any interference going on in the area.
		So that would work.
		And what was the other?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		A compass.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A compass, that's right.
		Of course, a compass.
		And that might even tell you the direction from which it's coming.
		How frequently have you been able to correlate these items acting in the manner you suggested with some sort of paranormal activity going on?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, over about the past 15 years, and I'm simply pulling this out of my head.
		I would say I've seen a clear correlation, according to my data, at least probably 50 times, maybe something like that, which is fairly significant.
		I've been to between 500 and 1,000 supposedly haunted places over the years, but this activity is extremely rare.
		I mean, for example, after having been to so many places, and by the way, I don't just study ghostly phenomena.
		I look at, and my team, Lemur, looks at cases that are paranormal across the entire spectrum, because if you yourself define what you are looking for, then a lot of times you limit what people will report to you.
		But nonetheless, after having investigated so many places, only once have I actually seen an apparitional form with my naked eyes.
		And I must tell you, honestly, despite having all the data there, if I had not seen one of these forms with my naked eyes, I still would have a lot more doubt about the reality of these phenomena because it's just something that you have to experience for yourself.
		It's like all of these UFO videos.
		You can see the videos every day.
		You can see the pictures, but if you see something personally, it doesn't really set home with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm very well aware, Joshua.
		I, of course, have seen my own UFO close up, you know, close encounter of the real close kind, and you're absolutely correct.
		On the other hand, I've never seen a ghost.
		Now, I wonder if you've looked into other aspects of your research.
		For example, as you know, I interview these folks who do EVP research.
		Have you looked into that very far?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and I have a sort of strange and complex fascination with EVP, and I'll tell you why.
		If we were ever able to create a device that is literally like a telephone to the other side, which is sort of ultimately what EVP is all about, well, then we wouldn't need any of these other tools.
		I mean, this warehouse of technology that my team and I have built up over the years, and we lug around in caravans of cars, would be unnecessary because we'd be cutting straight to the chase, we'd be able to talk to people on the other side.
		And so, therefore, this goal of having that communication device is a paramount ideal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's qualify this a little bit, Joshua.
		The folks that I have on the air here do, for the most part, blind recording, and they get voices that are apparently from the other side.
		I firmly actually believe They are from the other side.
		Now, George Meeks and others were doing some experiments that involved what you were just talking about, kind of a telephone to the other side.
		In other words, ongoing contemporary, right-now, two-way communication with somebody on the other side.
		Meeks was doing that, and I wish somebody else would pick up on that work.
		But even the work that's being done by my two friends in Utah from GIS is compelling work.
		Very, very compelling.
		I can't imagine where else these voices are coming from.
		Can you?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, and ironically, by the way, George Meek is from Franklin, North Carolina, about an hour and a half down the road from me here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		So, yeah, it goes back to the possible connection to the location.
		I've never seen any body of work, of EVP work, that is comprehensive and accurate enough to stand up to the scrutiny of the scientific method.
		Now, that is not to say that these folks are not indeed communicating with the other side.
		But as you know, one of the frustrating things about scientific research is you must have repeatability.
		You must be able to adapt something to a controlled situation in a laboratory, and you must be able to tell other people, here's how to do this, and they should be able to go out and reproduce it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute now.
		With EVP, Joshua, they can do that.
		Not that it can be repeated on absolute demand, but I've had countless numbers of people after programs that we've done with the GIS go out with recorders themselves and inevitably, or more times than not, come back with an EVP.
		Not that they can get it on demand, but they usually come back with one, Joshua.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got an EVP as well.
		You know, I have gotten voices as well, but you have to have that on-demand factor.
		You see, that's the problem.
		You are a perfectly living physical person, and still, I might call you 100 times, and you only pick up the phone once or twice, and you aren't a ghost.
		So, how difficult is it to call somebody on the other side and get them to pick up enough to give us a reliable sort of or a reliable ratio of feedback?
		So, that's the problem.
		You see, if EVP were something that would eventually lead us in the direction of getting that reliable communication, it is the most important thing we could utilize.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Joshua, hold that thought.
		Hold that thought.
		We'll come back to EVP.
		We've got a break here at the bottom of the hour from the Philippines, Manila.
		I'm Art Bell.
		That's a fact.
		Hello there from rainy Manila in the Philippines, Southeast Asia.
		My guest is Joshua Warren.
		We're talking about ghosts.
		We're talking about, and this is the first time we've done that, really, inanimate objects as well as objects that at one time were animated.
		That's very interesting because as I think about it, the things that Joshua named were at one time pretty much connected with human beings, right?
		Ghost ships, that sort of thing.
		They were at one time connected with things that were, well, people that were living.
		So I wonder if inanimate objects actually have the ability to reappear or hang in the ether as things that once had a soul do, or they simply reappear because they were part of many lives.
		I don't know.
		Something we'll think about.
		Joshua Warren, back in just a moment.
		Okay, we'll talk a little more about EVP, but I do want to touch on that.
		Joshua, I'm really interested.
		The inanimate objects you spoke about, it did occur to me that you're right.
		I mean, there are ghost ships, there are ghost planes, there are, you know, there's this and that, things that appear and disappear that people see.
		But these are things that at one time or another were pretty much all connected to living human beings.
		Isn't that true?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		The most prominent examples are.
		However, the funny thing and the tricky thing about that question is that the data that we have for the most part about ghostly phenomena, I guess you could say maybe altogether, is based upon human observation.
		And so you're talking about places where humans usually are in order for these things to be observed.
		But in some cases, it goes perhaps it might be pushing it because we do have things like time slips, as we call them, where someone actually turns around in an old house and sees that entire house the way it was 100 years before renovations and everything.
		And the whole environment looks different.
		Now, still, like you said, I mean, there is a connection to humans because we're basing it on a human observation.
		So it's almost like the, I guess, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, the idea that you can't truly measure something in its basic essence because that the very fact that you are observing it changes what is being observed.
		And so that's why this is so very complex because you have to place ghostly experiences and ghostly encounters in context based upon the observer's position to get a full round scope of the experience.
		Whereas even though we may have all this other data we can apply, data in and of itself doesn't really tell you necessarily anything about what's happening if you don't have the human observer there to interpret it.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Joshua, I want to ask you about something.
		This is probably, I don't know, I might have discussed this before, but I don't think so.
		It's been very hard for me to talk about.
		After my wife passed in January, I went through a period of time, very close in.
		I'm talking about the first Few days after she passed, Joshua.
		I'm normally a guy who likes the house nice and cool.
		I will turn the air conditioners down, and I just love it cool.
		That's just the way I am.
		I've always been that way, and I guess I always will be that way.
		However, in the first several days after my wife passed, I started, I was absolutely freezing, Joshua.
		I mean, I was freezing, so I turned the air conditioning up.
		It got up to around 80 degrees in the house, and that's just unheard of for me.
		I keep it at about 68 or better.
		And it got up to about 80 degrees, and I was still, Joshua, I'm telling you, I was so freezing cold.
		My teeth were chattering.
		I could feel it in every bone and sinew of my body.
		It got so damn cold that I had to go into the shower, turn the shower on hot, and just, I literally sat in the shower and let the hot water beat on me, and it didn't get better for about 30 minutes.
		It was the dog-gaundest thing I ever felt in my whole life.
		She was there, or somebody was there, and I'm convinced it was her, Joshua.
		Have you heard reports?
		I know there are many reports of cold associated with some sort of presence.
		What can you tell me?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, right off the bat, that makes me feel that there's a good chance that not only Ramona may have been there, but she may have actually been trying very hard to manifest.
		And the reason I say that is because we have gone to so many of these places that are haunted, where these cold spots float around.
		And we use all kinds of temperature gauges, and we don't find any significant measurement to show us that there actually is a drop in the external temperature.
		However, you can feel it.
		And so that's why we went into the laboratory and we started doing experiments with what we call an ion wind.
		And when you have a flow of electrostatic charges moving across your flesh, I mean, it can absolutely freeze you.
		It feels icy cold.
		You wouldn't know the difference if I took, you know, a canister of compressed air and blew it across you.
		And we find that when there is intense movement of electrostatic charges, you get that ion wind that makes you feel cold.
		Now, there is no actual drop in temperature, so that's the funny thing about it.
		You can measure the electron or the electrostatic flow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I can tell you for a fact.
		I mean, I actually watched the temperature go up to 80 degrees, and I was still, I was, oh, God, what's the right word?
		I was, there was no relief for it.
		I was freezing cold, you know, teeth chattering cold, that kind of cold.
		And it was up to 80 degrees.
		So you're absolutely correct.
		I could look at the thermometer, and I could tell it had reached 80, and I was still freezing.
		Now, this happened on like two or three days in succession, very close to her passing.
		So there was something, absolutely was something going on.
		Now I can't rule out the fact that it was in my mind, but I'm telling you, it was as real as anything else in my life, as real as the desk I'm touching here, banging on.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		And that's the funny thing about it.
		When it comes to something like the feel of a room or something like the smell, I mean, how often do you hear about someone saying, I smell a cigar or I smell a flower?
		You know, we don't have a meter right now that we can walk into a room with and measure a smell.
		And yet, it's a real thing.
		It's a tangible thing that makes an impact.
		It makes certain neurons fire off in our brains.
		And that's the thing about ghostly phenomena at this point.
		It makes us beg this question of what is the boundary of reality compared to ourselves and our technology.
		And the fact of the matter is, we ourselves, as humans, are meters, so to speak, ourselves.
		The problem is calibrating the meter.
		You know, what do you calibrate the meter by?
		But when you say that you have this feeling of cold, I feel like that there was probably a flow of electrostatic charges causing this, considering there was no other explanation that you could document.
		And that is a classic sign of someone who is trying very much to manifest.
		And I wonder, did you ever ask her if she would come back?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I talk to her constantly.
		I don't think I ever made a specific request for her to come back.
		No.
		I still talk to her.
		Anyway, I just wanted to pass that on to you that that was as real as can be.
		I've never, ever felt anything like it in my life.
		There was no relief for it save jumping in a hot shower.
		And even then, the relief didn't come for about 30 minutes.
		So it was just amazing.
		And in movies that you see about ghostly phenomena, they always show, in fact, they go to the degree of showing as though it were below 32 degrees and you can see the person's breath and that sort of thing.
		But you're saying that is not the way it really happens.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Not based upon the data that I've been able to personally collect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right.
		Let's talk for a moment about you've apparently written a brand new book.
		You've got a new book called Pet Ghosts.
		Is that right?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Pet Ghost, Animal Encounters from Beyond the Grave.
		And right off the bat, I think that the title may sort of limit the perception of what the book is about because it's not just about cats and dogs and stories along those lines.
		I mean, this is really a book about non-human apparitions altogether and looking at what is this potential border between humans and other creatures and even exploring the fringes, looking at, say, Bigfoot or Mothman or the Loch Ness Monster and examining them.
		Are those things animals or are they something of a semi-physical nature?
		And so, yeah, Pet Ghost is really a book about non-human apparitions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Non-human apparitions.
		All right.
		Well, let's actually, Though, touch on the pet part of it for a moment because I just cannot tell you how many emails I've had from people who tell me that their dog or their cat absolutely has been back.
		They've felt them on the bed with them, they felt the little paws going across the bed, they've seen things disturbed in the house that that pet loved before.
		How common?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's extremely common.
		You know, I didn't even realize myself how common it was until I started actively seeking it because people look rather flippantly upon animals altogether.
		And there are a lot of complexities when it comes to this subject matter.
		I mean, for example, if you're outside and you see an animal running around or a bird flying through the trees, in many cases, you have no way of differentiating between this creature being a physical, tangible organism and something else.
		Oftentimes, animal ghosts, or as I call them, phantomals, they look just as physical as living creatures.
		But, you know, one thing I find intriguing about this subject is that usually when an animal ghost comes back, it's for a limited period of time.
		I mean, maybe a week to a few weeks.
		And in fact, there were hundreds of stories that I didn't include for pet ghosts simply because it was that basic.
		I mean, well, you know, I hear my dog whining or I feel a brush on the leg, but there wasn't a real story there, so to speak.
		In other cases, however, you have places where there seems to be this really special connection between the environment and the animal, and it allows that creature to come back again and again.
		And those are the places where we even have stuff like dinosaur ghosts being removed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's a new one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it your belief, Joshua, that animals have a greater propensity to come back from the other side than do humans?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		I don't think there's anything greater about it.
		I think it's about equal.
		And, you know, it kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier, looking at the connection between animate and inanimate objects and their relationship to ghosts.
		You know, I'm criticized sometimes by people of faith who say, well, you know, only humans have souls, and animals for you to make that claim is an insult to humans.
		And I say, well, you know, when you look at humans and animals under the microscope, I mean, at the smallest levels, there is nothing really there that you can use to tell the difference between us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not as far as I'm concerned, Joshua, if you live with an animal, inside dog, or in my case, inside cats, and you look at every aspect of that animal, there is nothing, in my opinion,
		that separates them and us other than the ability to vocally communicate everything else, oh, jealousy, anger, happiness, depression, playfulness, even self-awareness, curiosity.
		I could go on and on and on and on with the list, but the people who live with pets know that I'm right.
		They have all of these things.
		So other than the ability to vocalize, as far as I'm concerned, my cats and cats and dogs and probably other mammals have souls.
		Now, that's going to engender a lot of criticism, as you mentioned, because, well, it's not supposed to be.
		We're supposed to be the only ones with souls, but I don't believe that, Joshua.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, and even beyond that, it's not even necessary to have a soul to be a ghost.
		So, I mean, you could say that issue of having a soul or a spirit is even irrelevant altogether, but if you want to look at it that way, then yes, there is no difference between us and them at that level.
		And I mean, both of us are primarily empty space and water to start with.
		And then beyond that, you know, we're just a loose mixture of these other elements that we share in common with inanimate objects.
		And so, yes, I agree with you entirely on that point that people, or the reason people find such a connection with their animals is because, you know, we are so similar to them.
		And the only difference that we have between them may be no different than what we see with humans in many cases.
		I mean, there are people out there who are in a state where they cannot speak or they can't relate to us, say someone who's on a life support machine.
		Does that mean this person is any less human than we are?
		No.
		I mean, we are all essentially made of the same substance.
		And what I've found is that there is no reason to believe that animals are any different in terms of their propensity to come back from the other side, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you see any difference, Joshua, between what we call a ghost, whether it be that of a human or an animal, and what human beings regard as alien spirits or alien creatures?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are they the same sort of thing?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that is a question that I have learned so much more about answering just since last fall, because last fall I went to Roswell for a week and did research there for a program the Discovery Channel was planning to air, which oddly enough is in the can, and yet they have decided not to air it, even though we had some amazing stuff captured.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why are they not going to air it?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		They have not given any sort of specific explanation for why they want to air it.
		And in fact, months ago, Jim Mars, who also was involved with the project, brought it up on coast to coast when George Norrie was on.
		And many, many people contacted Discovery and were demanding to see this thing.
		And it's sort of mysterious why they will not air it because I have done so much research.
		I've seen so many images of paranormal phenomena.
		And we captured something on seven or eight high-definition cameras in Roswell that I have never seen in my entire life.
		The program was called X-Ops.
		And assuming that you're never going to see this, I may as well go ahead and tell you what it looks like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, by all means, because perhaps it will tell us what it is they were afraid to air.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		We were at Hangar 84, which is where, according to popular lore, the bodies were brought after the crash.
		And one thing that I should mention is that when we went to Roswell, we weren't just going there to do the same old story about the alien crash and the people who had seen this and that.
		No, the new twist was that now people in Roswell are actually seeing the ghosts of the aliens.
		And I mean, I'm not talking one or two people out there you might find a little wacko.
		I mean, these are some quite reliable people who have a great deal of credibility, people in the medical profession in particular, who are working at the area that used to be the old Roswell Army Airfield Hospital, who have been seeing the apparitions of the aliens.
		And so it's a very important thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so what exactly did you capture on, did you say seven or eight high-def cameras?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		There were seven or eight high-def cameras there, and I don't know how many of them captured this, but I assume they all must have.
		At one point, we did a seance in Hangar 84.
		Now, I personally am not big on seances.
		I was just there with my equipment to document what happened, but there were a couple of psychics on the team, and those people led the seance.
		And at one point, in the middle of the session, and I mean this was a dark, cold, windy night in Roswell, what appears to be what I can best describe as a huge snake-like figure appears over our heads and slithers across Hangar 84.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they caught this on camera.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They caught this on camera and they're not airing it?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		High-definition camera from multiple angles.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Now, you explained that to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, there's no way to explain that.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		It's one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unless they thought they were being bamboozled somehow or another.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, we all saw that.
		We said, wow, we have hit the jackpot.
		We came here and actually got something that is so compelling.
		I mean, this is going to be a funny thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		You know, the producer who was there, along with the cameramen and all the rest of it, they must have had some comment about what was caught on camera, right?
		They must have gone, oh, my God, look at this.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, they were just ecstatic.
		I mean, it really was that point where we, to me, it was a distinct point, and I think for them, it was the distinct point where this crossed over from being another prospective program to this is a classic show.
		We have conversations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Joshua, hold it right there.
		We're at the top of the hour.
		It sounds like they caught the smoking snake, so to speak.
		And in Roswell, can't be that.
		From Manila in the Philippines, I'm Art Bell.
		It is.
		I know the people at Discovery pretty well.
		There's some pretty good people, and I can't, for one second, imagine they would catch something really significant, like a snake-like apparition that would appear over a group of people doing a seance in Roswell, New Mexico, and then not air it.
		So perhaps somebody at the network would like to get hold of me and explain to me why this is not being aired.
		We'll find out more about what's not being aired in a moment with Joshua.
		But, you know, if anybody at the network would like to get hold of me, I'm Artbell at AOL.com or artbell at mindspring.com.
		That's artbell-A-R-T-B-E-D-L-L at AOL.com or more likely at mindspring.com.
		Sure would like to hear from Discovery about what it is they're not airing.
		We'll be right back.
		Joshua, aside from that incredible snake-like apparition that appeared above the seance, was there anything else in that program that you can think of that would have caused them to make a decision not to air?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, the only thing that I was told by the producer director is that they felt that the fact everybody present agreed that something paranormal happened did not seem objective enough for Discovery Channel.
		But, I mean, that's the only thing that I've been told, which is kind of ironic because, I mean, you would hope that when Discovery puts together, and by the way, this was a Discovery project.
		This was not something somebody came up with and pitched to Discovery.
		I mean, this came from Discovery.
		Originally, we had Discovery producers in the field on the scene with us the whole time overseeing the production.
		There were producers there when this happened.
		You would think that given those circumstances, they would say, okay, we've put together a team of people here who have experienced something extraordinary, and that gives us all the more reason to air it.
		But then the only thing that I heard afterward was that they figured that since everybody there agreed, something paranormal had occurred that it seemed to jeopardize the objectivity of the event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That doesn't make sense to me, Joshua.
		I mean, if everybody agreed and they caught it on a high-def camera, then they had, it seems to me that met their objectives, period.
		And so that's not subjective at all.
		They had evidence.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		You know, in fact, at least I personally have a copy of the footage.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		I mean, Jim Castle, the guy who directed this thing, sent me a copy, and he'd probably be happy to send you a copy as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd be happy to receive a copy.
		All right.
		Look, let's move on.
		Over the years on this program, we've discussed lake monsters, Bigfoot extensively.
		I've interviewed people who've had big encounters with Bigfoot.
		Thank you very much.
		Mothman, all the rest of them, these sort of, I don't know, somewhere between mythical and paranormal creatures.
		Is there any distinction in your mind between them and between the sighting of ghosts and other paranormal phenomena?
		Is it all in the same belliwick?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, the way I view this particular subject, and by the way, I know a lot of cryptozoologists.
		I know Lauren Coleman personally, for example.
		He's spoken at conferences, and I've spoken along with him at conferences, and I have enormous respect for people who are really diligent and looking at the physical evidence, who feel that these are perfectly normal biological organic creatures.
		However, I don't see anything in our knowledge of the scientific aspect of energy and biology and so on that should lead us to believe that life forms can only exist within the realm that you and I consider physical.
		And keep in mind, physicality itself is relative.
		Basically, what physical means is that two forms are oscillating at a frequency similar enough so that they are able to resist each other.
		And so, therefore, all it takes is a slight increase or decrease in the frequency of one or the other in order to create this physical slash non-physical relationship where the two do not interact.
		And so, physical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll buy that one, buddy.
		I'll sure buy that one.
		In fact, in the first hour, I don't know if you caught it.
		We talked briefly about this phenomena known as shadow people or shadow beings, if you will.
		And I thought for some time that the more modern phenomena of staring at computer screens, which, of course, operate at a different refresh rate, eventually sort of retrain the brain after hours to see at a slightly different vibrational rate and allow human beings to see these things that are normally not seen in our physical dimension.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that's a very good point because, you know, you have that, you know, flash frame sort of rate or whatever they call it, I forget the actual term, that determines the rate basically at which your eyes are able to perceive other frequencies.
		It's no different than, say, turning on a fan.
		You can't see the fan blades when they're moving at a certain rate because they are going too fast for your brain to perceive.
		But if you turn on the strobe light, for example, that strobe light isolates them at a frequency that your brain can perceive.
		And that may be why the shutter speed on a camera determines if you can see into these frequencies.
		And so there is no reason scientifically to believe that life forms cannot exist at frequencies that are non-physical to us.
		I mean, look at radio waves.
		We can't see them.
		We can't feel them.
		But they are real.
		They are tangible.
		They carry information and so on.
		When it comes to something like Bigfoot or Mothman or some of these creatures, before we get into the idea that these may, in fact, perhaps be ghosts of creatures that are extinct or something like that, because I mentioned dinosaur ghosts earlier, I feel that when these creatures are present at our frequency, they are entirely tangible to us.
		I mean, they leave footprints, they leave hairs and other physical traces, but they don't stick around long enough for us to have the ultimate specimen to prove that they are always in our realm.
		Because I do feel like when people say, I've seen this creature, or when they collect samples, I mean, I think those people are being honest and they have actually seen something physical.
		But if there is a, let's say, thousand-pound, eight-foot-tall, hairy thing running around this country, and I can understand if it's way out in the middle of the jungle or in the middle of the Pacific Northwest, but we have reports of these creatures in all 50 states every year.
		That's right.
		There should be more evidence.
		There should be more hair.
		There should be more footprints.
		There should be more of an impact on the ecology of the system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could not agree with you more.
		And so then perhaps for only short periods, are they able to, in essence, be in this dimension, affecting physicality in this dimension?
		In other words, leaving footprints and that sort of thing.
		And that might account for why we suddenly see those footprints end as though the thing had just gone straight up into the air or something.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, perfect example.
		Absolutely.
		And I mean, cryptozoologists hate it when you talk like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		That's what the evidence indicates.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any indication, whether it's a ghost or whether it's one of these creatures that we're now talking about, how the apparitions actually are able to manifest?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, look at the Mothman, for example.
		The Mothman sightings climaxed leading up to a big event, the collapse of the Silver Bridge.
		The sightings started out slow and they picked up in speed.
		And of course, we always have difficulty evaluating that sort of thing because the media can step in and accelerate the coverage and you never know how much of it is being implanted in people's minds.
		But without going down that road, we know that altogether there were a few sightings in the beginning and they became more and more frequent.
		And it led up to this major disaster, the Collapse of the Silver Bridge, where 40-some people died, I think.
		And then after that, the sightings virtually disappeared or dwindled altogether slowly over time.
		So maybe there is, well, we know for a fact there is an energy environment that surrounds this planet that exists at a certain frequency.
		I mean, we know about the Schumann resonance, for example, if you want to look at it globally based upon how lightning discharges are hitting the planet and all this kind of stuff.
		Maybe when there is a big change that is about to occur on the planet, before it happens physically, it first happens in the energy environment, or at very least, that's where the first traces of it are.
		And when these shifts begin to occur in the energy environment, these creatures that live in the realm just outside of the one that we consider physical are able to interact with us either because, let's say, their frequency is lowered or ours is heightened or vice versa.
		But for some reason, there is this shift in frequency at these critical points that allows the frequencies to converge closer together.
		And so for this limited window, we are able to experience each other in a physical way.
		And then finally, the big discharge occurs, an earthquake happens, or some disaster happens.
		In fact, just last year, there was a minor earthquake here in western North Carolina, where I live.
		And afterward, people started calling me and telling me about seeing these large winged beings in the air only minutes before the earthquake occurred.
		And after that discharge happens and everything settles, well, then we don't see them anymore because they go back into their realm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's because there was an electromagnetic disturbance associated with the earthquake.
		There usually is.
		Now, I wonder, I'm going to go way out on a limb right now, but if you look at the George Meeks research, one has to wonder, that of course was with EVP, but one has to wonder if there isn't something that could be done on this side,
		or perhaps even, Joshua, on the other side, or perhaps on both sides, that would eventually enable a mixing of the two sides, an ongoing communication or even better movement on both sides, if you follow me.
		In other words, some scientific breakthrough that would allow the veil to be dropped.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that is what we have to achieve.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		And that is why that, you see, so far, when it comes to the EVP-type technology you were talking about earlier, what they have done essentially is create a bunch of white noise so that these are sort of free-floating building blocks that hopefully any entity out there will sort of be able to snatch onto and shape into a form that is able to communicate like a voice or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, specifically in the Meeks case, what they did was, yeah, it was kind of like white noise, and the idea was that the entity on the other side, being unable to vocalize, could instead find a way to modulate this white noise in a way that would make it vocal and make us able to actually hear something, to understand something.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		It's like giving it an electronic voice box to work with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, exactly.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		But you see, that is only the first step.
		As you were suggesting, the next step is now to figure out how do we change the frequency of this realm and that realm so that our frequencies converge closer together so that that voice box, so to speak, will become more useful.
		And that's why we have to look at wide-scale manipulation of the frequency.
		It almost reminds you of something like the Philadelphia experiment or some of these Tesla-type experiments where you create something that resonates the entire piece of property itself so that that chunk of space-time is able to shift in a similar fashion to what may happen naturally at these places such as Point Pleasant, West Virginia, before some big event occurs.
		And the problem is, if we ever are able to create the technology to do that, and we may already have, frankly, well then we don't really know how detrimental this could be altogether to our well-being by reflection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we don't.
		You know, it's opening a door is what it's doing, Joshua.
		It's opening a swinging it wide open, in fact.
		And so, right, I have no idea whether that would be a good or a bad thing.
		I think the possibilities are probably about equal.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I would say so because, you know, the Earth itself is such a dynamic, complex machine with so many variables.
		Few people seem to realize that.
		We have this false perception of how huge and complex the Earth is because of modern technology.
		We can go instantly to a reporter anywhere or see all these satellite images, and it makes the Earth seem very small.
		But in fact, the Earth is so huge and complex, I think that these things do happen all the time on the Earth naturally.
		But when you're talking about producing a machine that allows us to manipulate the Earth's environment, frankly, in order to cause that convergence between our realm and another dimension, it's going to warp time,
		it's going to change gravity, and in a way, time itself is the core of this whole situation because what more perfectly captures the mystery of ghostly phenomena than time itself?
		If you see a ghost, you have this sense that you're looking at the past, or in some cases, you're looking into the future, depending on the situation.
		And so it makes you feel like if we had a Machine that was able to withstand certain forces and travel at certain speeds and so on.
		Well, we have this idea we could travel through time physically.
		Well, we don't have a machine like that so far.
		But mentally, we may have that ability.
		I mean, we don't understand the power of the mind.
		And so it may very well be that the mind is at this point sometimes able to achieve these states that we still cannot achieve with our physical technology.
		And if we were able to achieve it, might be so reckless with it that we would either destroy ourselves or make ourselves insane if you are the experimenter who was there in the midst of it.
		And I think I've seen that happen to people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it may be that such a machine is not as impossible as it might seem on the face of it.
		In other words, if we are able to begin to affect the vibrational state of the brain with nothing more than a computer monitor, then using that line of reasoning, it might be that both sight, sound, frequency, and some other factors could be combined in some sort of machine that would, in fact, change a certain area into, let's see, what am I trying to say here?
		I'm trying to say, I guess, to open that door we're talking about, such a machine might not be so impossible.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, even though people like you and myself are very technically minded, we like wires, we like buttons, we like electricity, for thousands of years, people have been trying to achieve the same effect by using something like the psychomantium,
		a perfectly natural effect which is based upon something similar to scrying, where a person gazes into a mirror or some other reflective surface and is able to create these psychic, if you will, impressions using the mental state.
		And I've had people warn me strongly against doing that as well.
		But one of the things that I find intriguing about this idea that we might be able to accomplish mentally what we would like to accomplish technically is that when you look into a mirror and you are basically seeing your own eyes, well, that is, in a sense, infinity.
		And we know that infinity is really the key to the most complex mysteries of all.
		I mean, that's what it's all really about, infinity.
		There is no beginning, there is no end.
		And you would not believe how many times I go into haunted houses, and after about five minutes of walking around, I enter a room where there is a mirror facing a mirror.
		And you get that infinite tunnel of image within image within image.
		Now, mirrors, of course, are designed to reflect electromagnetism, i.e.
		light.
		So it may be that the real key to this whole situation in that sense is something to do with this infinite loop of energy being reflected back and forth, and that's when it starts getting really complex.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it true, Joshua, that people like yourself, researchers, are being surveilled by the government?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Hold it right there, Joshua.
		That's a great little tease, and that's what we do here at the breakpoint.
		So these researchers, people like Joshua, are being surveilled by our government.
		I wonder specifically by what agency of the government and why.
		From Manila in the Philippines, Southeast Asia, just about the opposite side of the world from most of you out there, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
		You are.
		Good afternoon to you.
		It's currently about, oh, I don't know, 3.35 or so in the afternoon in Manila, the Philippines.
		I'm speaking with Joshua Warren, and we're talking about ghosts specifically in a moment.
		We're talking about our government surveillance of researchers like Joshua Warren.
		Now, let's think about that a little bit.
		Certainly, our government, you know, the guys with the agencies that just have initials, pretty much, there's nothing, I would think, that Joshua would know that they need to find out about.
		So the only thing I can imagine the government would be interested in would be what people like Joshua might stumble into, something perhaps our government already knows about.
		We'll ask in a moment.
		Just taking a very small step backwards, Susie in Petaluma, California says, Joshua was talking about the fan blade and shutter speeds, shutter speeds on a camera, right?
		This may be the reason for the common phenomena of finding something ghost-like in a photograph that supposedly wasn't there when it was taken.
		Are we in a ghost soup all the time and don't know it?
		I'll tell you something interesting.
		I just got an email concerning a number of passengers on an airliner, on an aircraft, I guess.
		I don't know that it was an airliner.
		On an aircraft who took photographs of something or another, and each and every one of the photographs was several people and several cameras caught exactly the same lights in formation following the aircraft.
		Now, these lights were not actually seen by the people on the aircraft, nor the people taking the photographs, until the pictures were either developed or simply shown after being, you know, the word exposed doesn't apply to the digital world.
		But anyway, it showed up equally well on all of the cameras, but not to the naked eye only to the cameras.
		And I'm working on that story right now.
		I wasn't really going to mention it tonight, but it seems to fit in.
		Joshua?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a perfect example because our team has been in places before where paranormal activity occurs.
		We have three or four cameras set up.
		We have three or four people.
		Something anomalous happens, and each camera captures something different.
		And each person experiences something different.
		And talking about questioning reality, I mean, that makes you really question what is real and what is not.
		And the fact of the matter is, there is no correct perception of reality.
		Indeed, cameras are capable of capturing things that we cannot see with our naked eyes, for one thing, because of shutter speed.
		And secondly, because especially digital cameras are all able to see somewhat into the infrared realm.
		And it seems like that so many of these paranormal anomalies are within the infrared, but that may only be because that our digital technology is currently able to capture infrared easily.
		We don't have digital cameras readily available that can capture into the UV realm, and that's something our team is working closer toward, trying to see what is in the UV realm that might be just as extraordinary as what we see in the infrared.
		But that's absolutely true.
		Cameras are able to perceive things that the naked eye cannot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Bigelow Ranch, I guess you're probably familiar with Bob Bigelow, right?
		He's now in aerospace, launched a spacecraft, but he was very much into paranormal research.
		And at his ranch, using night vision equipment, some very credible people that I've interviewed were able to actually view an opening, some sort of dimensional opening, and something crawling through it.
		I know this sounds strange as hell, but it's true.
		And it was seen by a number of people.
		And anyway, look, I want to get back to this surveillance business.
		I started thinking about that.
		Why would our government surveil somebody like you?
		What would they be interested in?
		Well, probably nothing that they don't already know.
		In other words, they've done a lot of work in this area, so they must already know something.
		What they must be concerned about, Joshua, is that one of you all will discover something they already know that they don't want made public.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, in my experience, government agencies, and by the way, it's not directly the government.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Instead, it is private businesses, private corporations that are contracted with the government who are doing the real research because they are protected by privacy rights that public agencies don't have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, it's still the government, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, remember Air America.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		It all boils down to how you define things technically.
		And, you know, definition is everything.
		But they don't really seem to care so much about ghost research.
		It's when you start looking into outer space and you start looking at this alien phenomenon and how that extraterrestrial things may actually manifest using the manipulation of energy, that's when the government really starts becoming intrigued, and especially when you start looking into the moon.
		Because I have this impression based upon my own experiences that we all look up every day at the moon, we see this bright glowing orb above we're all familiar with, and we sort of blow it off because we're so used to it.
		But there is something going on with the moon.
		I don't know necessarily if it is of a terrestrial or extraterrestrial nature, but there is sufficient reason to believe that there are secret projects taking place on the moon based, if nothing else, on the fact that that's when they really start paying attention to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could well be, Joshua, but I'm not sure there's, at the end of the day, that much difference between the kind of paranormal research you're doing and research on aliens.
		In other words, aliens seem to manifest, appear, disappear, be able to do things that we would consider to be paranormal, much in the same way a ghost does.
		So I don't know that there's a lot of difference.
		I mean, whether we call it an alien spirit or we call it a ghost, you know, these are just words, Joshua.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you hit the nail on the head there, because based upon the research that I have done, there is no huge difference between the way that a ghost may manifest and how something like an alien intelligence manifests, because the same thing is happening.
		There is this manipulation of the frequencies taking place between what we consider non-physical and physical.
		And given that, if you consider that the government is simply composed of people who are categorizing things in terms of prioritization, it makes sense that they would actually start increasing surveillance when you start touching on something that has relevance to a project they're actually working on, such as something related to extraterrestrials.
		But in essence, you're absolutely right.
		There is no great difference from what I've seen between how these potential extraterrestrial intelligences may be manifesting and how a ghost makes that transition from one realm to the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here, here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you been aware of any surveillance of yourself at any point?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Give me an example, please.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		I have actually had government agents show up at my house.
		And there are some details that I cannot go into for certain privacy reasons.
		But basically, I never experienced this sort of government surveillance presence until I started seriously investigating that connection between the possibility of extraterrestrial manifestations and what's happening on the moon.
		And therefore, I feel that when I say government agents have appeared at my house, I mean men have shown up not only at my house, but at my neighbors' homes, asking questions.
		I've told people for a long time that I had weird stuff happening on my phone line, and then we have all this coming out about the Bush administration tapping phone lines, and I don't think there's anything unique about that.
		I think governments have probably always done that.
		But you can't help but become paranoid after you get to the point to where not only do you have strangers showing up around your house asking questions, but also...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you recall any of the specific questions they asked about you?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, for the most part, it boils down to issues such as, you know, who is this person in terms of his research?
		How stable is he mentally?
		I think that's the big thing.
		Psychologically, they ask questions such as, do you see him doing anything unusual at night?
		Because I'm sort of a night owl.
		You know, obviously you're in another part of the world, but right now it's approaching four in the morning here on the East Coast.
		They ask questions from a psychological perspective.
		And so even if there's this perception that a person like myself may be some wacko, well, why should they care about that?
		I'm not doing anything that should be threatening to the national security.
		I'm simply questioning these concepts about how extraterrestrial or other types of entities may manifest here on Earth.
		And so it is possible that they simply have a whole department which is looking at the psychological aspects of researchers out there like myself for some reason that I don't know about that has no relationship to any reality regarding the practicality of these other beings or intelligences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you this.
		Is there anything about the moon that you know that we should know?
		You brought up the moon, so let's go there.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, for about the past 15 years, I have been mentored by a man named Charles Yost, who worked for NASA.
		He actually died last year, and so I feel much more willing to talk about certain things that I wouldn't have before that.
		I worked with him on projects that I felt had some elements that I wouldn't have discussed prior to his death.
		He's actually in the NASA Hall of Fame for being an inventor of temporic memory foam.
		And not too long before he died, he gave me some footage that NASA had showing, and I think this was from Apollo 8.
		This is on my website, lemurteam.com, where there is a craft flying over the surface of the moon.
		And at one point, something that looks very much like a tower sticking up out of the moon is visible.
		And as the camera flies over, this thing shifts perspective.
		And right as the camera is about to pass over top of it, what appears to be something like a puff of smoke is ejected from this tower.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, a lot of people are going to want to see this.
		So let me stop and say it's www.lehemur.
		That's L-E-M-U-R Team, T-E-A-M, dot com, right?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people are going to be on the way to that website right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do they get to the clip you're talking about?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a section there that says ghost hunting and more.
		If you click on that, I think there's a heading, something like Space Mysteries or something like that, where we have this footage posted.
		And, you know, it's funny, I started out just as a journalist collecting ghost stories, and I had years and years of experience in seeing how people respond to that.
		And then once I posted this footage and I simply raised the question of what is this, you would not believe that the people who started bombarding my sites and our discussion board every day with truly venomous reactions saying,
		you know, saying anything they could to possibly discredit our work when I have not made any claims whatsoever about what this is.
		All I've said is, here's the focus.
		What is it?
		And we're talking about people who are posting virtually 24 hours a day.
		Now, I don't think the average person out there trying to make a living in this country is able to sit there on a computer and post these highly articulate arguments to every single thing you put out there 24 hours a day.
		It almost seems like that there is some sort of orchestration out there amongst a group of extremely intelligent people who are doing everything they can to cast doubt upon anything they feel that you are insinuating in terms of a mystery.
		And I have never seen such a response, so much arrogance, so much condescension toward asking questions as I have seen since I started asking questions about the moon in particular.
		And recently, now we have this information coming out about 698 boxes of the footage from the Apollo mission with the footage of just mysteriously vanished.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gone.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		And then you go back to Roswell and all the outgoing messages from the Roswell base have mysteriously vanished.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vanished.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		There is something happening here, and I don't pretend to know what it is.
		And I can't say directly that it's aliens.
		I've never seen an alien.
		I have seen so many people comment upon the fact that they have seen organisms from some extraterrestrial or of extraterrestrial origin that I think that there is probably some credibility there.
		But whether or not it's extraterrestrial or terrestrial, the moon right now is in a position where it is being used as a tool to control this planet based upon what I have seen.
		And why wouldn't it be?
		I mean, look at how important satellites in general are.
		The moon is the ultimate satellite.
		And, you know, just recently, we not only have George Bush saying we're going to go back to the moon, and we have the Russians saying we're going to put a base on the moon, and the Chinese people saying we're going to put a base on the moon.
		Well, there are also these reports coming out about helium-3, which is this plentiful substance on the moon that aids fusion reactions that could solve the energy crisis for hundreds, if not over a thousand years.
		And so it may be that it's based solely upon the energy crisis.
		And I feel like all these big secrets that the government is interested in boils down to energy.
		And that's why right now, you know, we are in such a dire situation because most people agree that energy needs are a big component of why we are at war right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as you know, there are many people who have said there are things on the moon that have been hidden from us, from large glass crystalline structures that Richard C. Hoagland and others have talked about to many other things.
		There are those who even suggest the soul, that there's some sort of repeater that collects souls on the moon.
		I mean, there's all kinds of lore about the moon, and there is some evidence that there may be something on the moon that they don't want us to know about.
		You believe that?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		At this point, you know, it's funny.
		If you are the kind of person who says, I am never going to form an opinion until I know something 100%, well, then you may as well just keep your mouth shut and never say anything because you're never going to know anything 100%.
		That's not the nature of reality.
		For all we know, this whole experience is just some kind of dream.
		How do you know the difference between the two?
		Because a dream seems realistic.
		But if you are the kind of person who realizes, okay, there comes a certain point.
		Okay, there are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm right here.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		I just heard myself talking to myself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		I heard the same thing.
		I was some sort of glitch back there.
		That's all right.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Maybe it is a dream.
		But anyway, if you're the kind of person who realizes that you're never going to have all of the information, and so at some point you may as well form an opinion, and you're not afraid to be wrong if you are indeed wrong.
		Well, so be it.
		I, at this point, have formed the opinion that there is something extremely significant happening on the moon that they are keeping secret from us, and this is exactly the kind of thing that they don't want us talking about right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then you're liable to find somebody else at your door or one of your neighbor's doors.
		I have no idea what it is either, but it does seem that there's some sort of mystery connected with the moon.
		And, of course, we did go there now a long time ago.
		And we haven't exactly, we've had some rhetoric, but we haven't exactly seen big steps toward going back to the moon.
		And one has to wonder what's going to happen when the, well, for example, the Chinese get to the moon.
		Hold tight, Joshua.
		We're going to take a break.
		And when we come back, we're going to open the phone lines and allow all of you to ask Joshua Warren questions, whether it would be about entities that you have seen, experiences you have had, or much of what he's talked about, even right down to and including surveillance from our government or something that ought not be on the moon that we've not yet been told about, but is probably there.
		Any and all of that is fair game when we return from Manila in the Philippines.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		We're all on a ride.
		It's just that not much on this ride is really as it seems.
		My guest is Joshua Warren.
		We're talking about things ranging from ghosts and spirits to aliens.
		And now the moon.
		If you have any questions, those are the numbers.
		Joshua's at your service.
		Coming right back in a moment.
unidentified		Coming right back in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tim in Casper, Wyoming says, here's a thought.
		What if we're able to travel interdimensionally by electronic means of some sort and finally discover the truth of everything?
		We're probably going to find out we're actually stuck in somebody's Sims game.
		All right, Joshua, welcome back.
		I've got a board full of people who would like to talk to you.
		And I suspect it's exactly about the things you've been talking about.
		So let's give it a try.
		You ready?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		I'm ready.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here it comes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Joshua and Art.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi.
		I wanted to make a comment and share.
		I have a photo that I took in the Queen's Chamber, the pyramid, that also has a serpent.
		Actually, there's two serpents in them.
		They're on each side of someone.
		I was taking a picture of the niche in the Queen's Chamber as this person stepped out.
		And it's very, very clear that there's serpents.
		And what I wanted to ask him is the one that they filmed for that discovery thing, Was it blue?
		Did it have like a blue light emanating from it?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		No, from my knowledge, and of course, I'm only going upon the way it was shot, and frankly, I don't have that technical knowledge.
		I was just sent the footage, but it did not seem to be anything bluish.
		It seemed to be white, and it slithered from the left side of the screen to the right side.
		And, you know, I had to sign a very extensive contract with Discovery to do this show, which prevents me directly from making that public.
		But as you mentioned, Art, if you will send me your shipping address after the show, I will send this to you or have it sent to you.
		But, no, I don't recall a bluish light, but I'm intrigued that you got that kind of thing in the pyramid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's interesting.
		You cannot.
		What are you unable to talk about?
		What does the contract prohibit you from specifically saying?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		This is the most comprehensive contract that I've ever signed in my entire life.
		In fact, I have talked to people who are experts in these kinds of contracts working with Discovery, and they said that they've never seen a contract like this.
		And so...
		Well, I don't know.
		I don't know.
		But I do know this, that if I have come across at all tonight as hesitant or limited in what I can say, it is because of that.
		But that whole discovery situation, it's something that I've talked with and other people involved have talked with George about in the past.
		And it's the kind of thing, if you wanted to take a whole show one night to discuss it, it's that extensive.
		We have that much that we could discuss.
		But in terms of violation of the contract, I certainly do not intend to violate it.
		And that's why I must.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'll tell you what.
		Before I would call upon the public to bombard Discovery with calls or emails, I would invite Discovery to contact me, artbell at AOL.com or artbell at mindspring.com, and tell me what's going on.
		And that way I can pass it on to the audience and you can avoid a zillion phone calls.
		How about that?
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Joshua Warren.
		Hi.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		This is Mike from Cleveland.
unidentified		I got Harwood.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Why do some people believe in ghosts?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do some people not believe in ghosts?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		I don't really believe in ghosts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've not seen one, I take it.
unidentified		No, I haven't seen one.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Only in movies, Art.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Only in movies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only in movies.
		Well, it's kind of like UFOs, buddy.
		Seeing is believing, I think was the title of the program.
		And as to why some people don't believe in ghosts like yourself, I couldn't begin to answer that question other than you haven't seen one.
		So I don't know.
		Joshua?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, a person like myself is contacted on a daily basis by many, many people.
		I mean, in fact, over the past couple of months, I've gotten to the point as we approach Halloween and people get more in the mindset of this where I'm now officially receiving more than 1,000 emails a day.
		And it's almost impossible to keep up with all of them.
		But the fact of the matter is, people are telling me every day where to go.
		They are giving me access to those places.
		And I can completely understand why someone would think that ghostly phenomenon does not exist because it's so rare.
		But when people are telling you where it's happening, they're telling you essentially when it should be happening, and also giving you access, if you then have the initiative to get up and go look for it, well, then you're going to see it.
		But I don't at all have any misunderstanding about why someone would not think ghosts are real because I myself, as I mentioned earlier, was doubtful of the reality of these in terms of the human experience before I saw one.
		And science is designed to help us understand the simplest mysteries first.
		That's the nature of Occam's razor.
		And we have done extraordinarily well with that philosophy thus far over the past couple hundred years.
		But we've now gotten to the point where we have these fringe mysteries.
		I mean, we are now looking at the hardest mysteries that have ever been presented and trying to place them under the scope of science.
		And what's the first step of the scientific method?
		Observation.
		And you have to have a database there that you can look to for patterns and correlations and cause and effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and of course, repeatability.
		Joshua, do you think it has anything to do with intent?
		In other words, intent on the part of the observer.
		If somebody really wants to see something, do you think they're more likely to?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are parapsychologists out there who feel that we may actually create these experiences in an almost telekinetic way.
		I don't really know if that's possible or not because I haven't seen any direct evidence of that.
		But I do know that if you want to see something, well, you're going to be more aware.
		And awareness is a key that we cannot ignore because if you don't have your eyes open in the right direction at the right time, well, then you're not going to see it.
		And we look to equipment as though this equipment is some other presence out there that somehow adds legitimacy to what we do.
		But the fact of the matter is the equipment is only as good as the people who are operating it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly right.
		All right.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Joshua Warren.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, how you doing?
unidentified		This is Dean out of Mesa, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I was doing an EBP of my own, and I had a spike meter on there.
		And anyway, it went up to a 3, and a few seconds later, it jumped up to a 10.
		I couldn't really make out what it was saying.
		But right after that happened, I had a cat at the foot of my bed, and I looked up.
		The cat looked up at the ceiling and jumped off the bed and ran.
		I looked up, and I could see like a black cloud hovering above my bed.
		Do you have any idea what that could have been?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		So you saw the cat first, Dean, and then you saw the black cloud afterward.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Is that right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, but he was trying to get an EVP and got some kind of spike on a meter.
		I don't know what kind of meter it was.
		Maybe you can tell us of color.
unidentified		What do you mean?
unidentified		On a cassette recorder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, on an audio meter, okay.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you got the spike.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		the EVP was there, but unintelligible, is that correct?
unidentified		Right, I couldn't make out what it was saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then the cat looked at the ceiling, you looked up, the cat took off, and there was a black cloud.
unidentified		Yeah, like a black cloud, yeah.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, that's intriguing, actually, because I have always been looking toward what changes happen in the environment at large when a manifestation occurs.
		And the fact that you not only had this experience but also saw the black cloud reminds me of what you were talking about the first hour art in terms of the shadow people.
		To me, whenever you have something black like that, I mean, what that basically means is that there's something so dense that it's preventing the amount of light that is able to pass through.
		Now, I don't know specifically what that means, but I will say that I've always felt everybody looks to shadow people as possibly being some kind of different manifestation than a regular ghost.
		I don't understand why that is, because a shadow person may simply be a ghost that is only able to manifest just enough to block the light.
		Now, I have some other ideas as well about what shadow people may be, but when you talk about seeing a cloud over your head, it may be to your perception something nebulous, but in fact, it was a result of the fact that the environment itself was at that time conducive to a manifestation,
		and it allowed this thing to materialize only so much that you could just see it as a dark form.
		But that's as far as I can speculate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Joshua Warren.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hey, how are you doing?
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Destin, Florida.
		My name is Mike.
		I have a short story and two questions for Joshua.
		In about 2002, I was stationed in Germany.
		I was in the Army, and I went to a friend's house on the economy in Kitsigan, Germany, and nobody was home.
		And his front door was down a long hall.
		None of the lights were on, so it was pitch dark.
		And I had to feel my way to the door.
		While I was waiting for someone to answer the door, I saw about five ghosts exit straight through the door.
		They looked like the best that I could explain is the outline of their bodies looked like some sort of hologram almost.
		And after being scared stiff for about 45 seconds, I found the light switch by the door and turned it on, and the ghosts all disappeared.
		And I gathered my thoughts for a little bit and then turned the light back off and saw all of them again.
		And this time I watched them for about three to four minutes until I turned the lights back on and left.
		And I had a couple questions.
		Joshua, I was wondering if anybody has, to your knowledge, seen any ghosts similar looking to what I saw, and what would cause me not to see them with the lights on?
		And I'll listen off the air.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		You know, Mike, that is a great question.
		And the first thing that comes to mind is that, and bear with me here, people frequently ask me, why are ghosts seen more often at night?
		And one response that I have to that is, well, okay, the side of the Earth that is facing the sun is being constantly bombarded by an enormous amount of radiation.
		And it sort of distorts, disrupts, and compresses the Earth's magnetosphere or magnetic environment.
		And the opposite side of the Earth, away from the Sun, is expanded and calm.
		And that's why at night you can pick up radio stations that are hundreds or thousands of miles away, because in that calm environment, the ionosphere is lifted and the signals bounce off at a greater angle.
		And so what that shows you is that some of these subtle electromagnetic signals can actually be disturbed to an enormous extent by the greater signal coming from the sun.
		Now, breaking it down to your experience, Mike, imagine the same sort of situation where when ghosts appear, they are manifesting as a quite subtle and delicate energy form, and the sort of rim of illumination that you saw around them that you described as hologram-like are an example of that.
		But when you turn the light on, I mean, that is a very strong, bombarding type of electromagnetic radiation comparatively that's coming from the light.
		And so therefore, you can almost imagine the light being like the sun distorting and disrupting and overpowering the subtle manifestation.
		And aside from the fact that the illumination could be so subtle that you could only see it when the light was off because your eyes are able to perceive it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but again, it attests to the really tremendously subtle manifestation that it is in the first place if a simple light bulb can do it.
		And as you point out, why seen more at night?
		Very elegant explanation with regard to the sun.
		Wild Carline, you're on the air with Joshua Warren.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, I'm Kathy calling from Ontario, Canada.
		And I'm calling to let you know last April, me and my boyfriend, it was just after midnight.
		And what we saw, I live over by the lake, and what we saw come, I don't know if we actually saw it come down, but it was just there.
		It appeared to be a big red sphere, almost like a planet, like transparent.
		And it kind of got really intense in like a reddish-blackish color.
		And then it was there for like about four minutes.
		And when it closed down, like it kind of zoomed down, and out of that came this big white orb, and it flew straight up into the sky and like up over the lake.
		And the night before that, we also just seen the orb flying around the lake and like above the island and the trees and that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So out of curiosity, Kathy, what is it you think that you saw?
unidentified		I thought it was a portal.
		The way when I first seen it, like when I looked at it, it was almost shocking because it looked to me like it was a sphere of some sort, like almost like a planet in red color, almost transparent at first, but then it got darker and more reddish.
		And it really like just, we were absolutely blown away by it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, there's another one, Joshua.
		I never know how to answer these questions.
		People are always asking, well, what is it I saw?
		There's just really, short of seeing it yourself, there's no way to know, but there's no end to these stories.
		There are certainly people that don't believe in these things, but listening long enough and listening to these people, it's obvious they're really happening.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, based upon what Kathy said, I mean, it seems right off the bat, and of course I would need more to tell to give anything really elaborate, but it reminds me of some of those spheres of illumination we see at Brown Mountain, which tend to be similar to a ball lightning type phenomenon, a natural plasma.
		Now, I don't want to in any way demean her experience by saying it could be something natural because I would need more detail to go further.
		But red is a common color that we see, and we also see that these spheres of illumination often divide and have a smaller sphere that emerge from them.
		And that seems consistent with what she has said.
		Did she say it was over a lake art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, that would be even more likely than that it's a plasma because we see these things over water all the time.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		So just based upon what I've heard, if I had to bet on it, I'd say it was a natural ball lightning type stabilized spherical plasma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Joshua Warren.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, this is Amy from Pittsburgh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Amy.
unidentified		How are you?
		Okay.
		Great.
		Well, first, I want to say I'm a long-time listener, first-time caller, so it's great to finally get through.
		I have just two quick things to say and then a question.
		One is I wanted to say, as far as when we were talking, you were talking about the animal ghost, I firmly, you know, have had experiences with a dog from my childhood that had passed away.
		And actually, the dog was very sick while I was out of town attending a summer program at a college when I was 16.
		And I truly believe the dog waited to die until I got home because the dog was very old and sick.
		And it was about three years after that, I literally saw a dent in my bed where the dog used to lay and could just feel the presence of the dog.
		That's the only time I've ever felt the presence of that particular dog.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You had thousands of emails like that, huh?
unidentified		No, I mean, I mean, and since then, never felt the presence of her.
unidentified		But it was about a year or two after she passed away, you know, firmly believe that she was there that night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, just about out of time here.
unidentified		Also, I wanted to ask Joshua if he's ever heard.
		I grew up in a small town called Freeport PA, and I don't know if he's ever heard of the Abbott House, which is actually a documented haunted house.
		And one of the guys that, actually a guy that's my age, grew up there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'll hold it right there.
		Joshua, yes or no?
		Have you heard of that?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Nope, never have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Never have.
		All right, on that note, we're going to break and take more calls after the break at the bottom of the hour from Manila, the Philippines.
		I'm Art Bell.
		There really is never going to be enough proof for those who do not believe.
		Aaron from Houston, Texas says, hey, Art, one of my favorite quotes applies to this topic.
		A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.
		I hold on to that all the time.
		You can debate all you want, but you cannot take away from my experience.
		Once again, Joshua Warren, and he's got a couple of books, folks.
		One is How to Hunt Ghosts.
		The latest one is Pet Ghosts.
		Now, again, Pet Ghosts is not, apparently, as you would think from the title, all about pets.
		While it is covered in the book, there's a lot more, correct, Joshua?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		It really covers everything related to non-human apparitions.
		In fact, I had to invent the term phantomals just to describe all of these creatures that are not necessarily ghosts, but are, at very least, ghostly.
		And what I would like for all of your listeners to do who have an interest in this subject matter and who would like updates on the work that we're doing and would like to attend events with us is to go to lemurteam.com.
		We have a place there where you can put your email address into my database for my free and spam-free e-newsletter.
		And I will personally email you from time to time with updates because I'm always going around with my team and investigating places like the Bermuda Triangle.
		We have a cruise or we have Pirates of Charleston coming up and a Ghost and Bigfoot retreat.
		And, you know, also something else that I will throw out here is that I mentioned that when I was in Roswell Last fall.
		I was there with Jim Mars.
		Well, also, Nick Redfern was with me and various other paranormal experts.
		And because that we are prevented from speaking abruptly and frankly about what we experienced there, we have decided we'd like to try to go around in person and talk the best we can about some of our experiences in Roswell.
		And if anybody's interested in that, we are going to be in Kansas City, Missouri on December 9th for an all-day-long conference.
		But the only problem is we're only going to do this if at least 55 people buy tickets between now and October 1st.
		We've sold two tickets so far.
		So I'd like to put out a request there.
		If your listeners would like to hear me and Jim Mars and Nick Redfern speak, please buy your tickets right now for that.
		And there's information.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I'm sorry.
		It's on your website.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if you go to lemurteam.com, L-E-M-U-R-T-E-A-M.com, just click on the news section, and it's all there.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		This is just purely an experiment for us, and we're trying our darndest to see if we can get permission from Discovery to show the footage that we got at this event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good luck on that one, and I'm looking forward to hearing from Discovery.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Joshua Warren.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, I'm Matt from Massachusetts.
		Yeah.
		I'm curious whether ethereal and fleshy-looking ghosts, if you will, have certain properties, or if certain people see either one depending on individual receptiveness, or even if the popular ethereal ghost idea is merely that, a popular idea that gets abused by hoaxers.
		Okay.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's a wonderful question, Matt.
		That is a question that I have pondered over for a long time because I hear these stories about people who see ghosts and they don't even realize that they're looking at a ghost until they realize that, say, the floor is at the knee level of the individual and it indicates that person is at a previous floor level.
		At this point, I think that whether or not a ghost appears completely physical and tangible or looks sort of translucent and luminescent probably depends upon two things.
		One is the environmental condition and humidity makes a big difference there.
		If the humidity is lower, I feel that they look more tangible because the electrostatic charges are able to manifest in a more condensed, concentrated manner.
		However, if the humidity is high, then that sort of reduces the opacity.
		The other factor may simply be the ability of the individual to see that particular wavelength that seems to give it substance.
		And that's why I would love to do an experiment where I have, say, 100 LEDs that are producing a range of wavelengths from infrared to ultraviolet and take people who have seen ghosts as well as people who have not, have them look through a little viewer and tell me what range that person can see.
		Because from a subjective perspective, that would give us great insight.
		And we have done experiments to prove that some people can see auras.
		And I don't know if you want to go into that or not, Argo.
unidentified		No, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a very, very interesting line of research.
		In other words, to actually it's kind of like a hearing test in a way, except for the eye.
		And you're going to expose them to waves that are just outside normal human vision and see.
		I wonder if there is a correlation.
		That's a wonderful experiment.
		I wish you luck with that.
		First time know Wildcard line, you're on the air with Joshua Warren.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, this is John in Savannah, Georgia.
		Yes, sir.
		I'm a local tour guide here.
		I do a haunted tour here in Savannah.
		And I have seen so many things in this town that it really boggles the mind.
		It's almost commonplace sometimes.
		And it happens in waves.
		Like we'll have weekends that we'll have a lot of things go on and then maybe a couple of weeks that it's kind of quiet.
		And after all the experiences I've had, and by the way, I never really truly became a believer until I saw a full three-dimensional figure disappear right in front of me.
		And that really made me a believer.
		And things I've seen on the job and off the job have led me to believe that it's some sort of there's some sort of natural component to it, like there's some sort of geomagnetic component to it that provides, I don't know, a viable platform for these things to manifest themselves.
		And here in Savannah, we're one of the most haunted cities in the world.
		We have all kinds of things going on here.
		And everybody, just about everybody I know has a ghost story here.
		So I was wondering to get Joshua's point of view on that, you know, to see what he feels about that.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, and thank you for that comment because Savannah is enchanting.
		And it's not too far from Asheville, actually, because, you know, Georgia borders North Carolina.
		I don't know anything in particular about Savannah, but earlier I was talking about this sort of alignment that this area has with other paranormal locations, ultimately culminating perhaps in the island of Bermuda, the top corner of the Bermuda Triangle.
		So that may have something to do with it.
		But I know there's a lot of high humidity in Savannah, which is something I always take into consideration when it comes to how these things manifest.
		But specifically, I don't have anything else I can add.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Well, thank you then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you, Carla.
		And with the humidity level here in the Philippines, I'm not going to look for any physical manifestations soon, I'll tell you that.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Joshua Warren.
unidentified		Yeah, hi, Art.
		This is Tam R. Calling from Los Angeles.
		Hi.
		And when he mentioned a snake, I used to see those floating snakes when I was a kid.
		I saw them all the time.
		Big, huge ones that I would say Maybe five to eight inches around, and they would undulate like a sine wave through the air.
		And it's the first time I've ever heard anybody talk about them.
		And I saw them from my earliest memories as a child up until maybe like I was eight or nine years old.
		I can remember because I know we lived in different places, and I could remember, but see them, of course, in the nighttime when the lights were turned out.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Wow, that's really intriguing, Tamara.
		You know, I have wondered, since seeing that footage, is this a phenomenon that happens all the time at certain places, and we were lucky enough to be somewhere with the right technology to capture it, or was it something specific to that area?
		Because, you know, there's no connection to snakes and Roswell that I know.
		So it may be that there was simply a seance happening in November in a place where the humidity was low and the environmental conditions were right.
		But I have not heard anyone else say what you've said.
		And I would very much appreciate it if you could email me because perhaps I could at least send you a still from the footage to see how it matches with what you've experienced.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to give out your email address?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		You can email me at jpw.
		Those are my initials.
		Joshua P. Warren is my name.
		jpw at joshuapwarren.com.
		There is no period after the P. My name, last name is spelled W-A-R-R-E-N.
		So that's jpw at joshuapwarren.com.
		And I'll be more than happy to respond to your emails if I can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		International line, you are on the air with Joshua P. Warren.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Ed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		Nathan from Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kind of a bad cell phone there, buddy, but give it a shot.
unidentified		Can you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you.
unidentified		Okay, yes.
		I want to make a couple comments.
		They all tie into the same thing.
		Particularly the guy from Savannah a moment ago and the earthquake phenomena, as well as ties at the UVP.
		But let me try to be concise.
		Please bear with me.
		I believe that it may not be the manifestation of these sightings may not be so much the opening of portals or actually opening of a doorway or as you suggested earlier, but it could actually be interferometry.
		That, like you were saying, that there is the generation of electromagnetic fields or frequencies previous to an earthquake, and there's a sighting of these winged beings.
		It could actually be that the generated frequencies are interacting with emanations or reflected frequencies that create yet another frequency that become visible to us.
		Like optoacoustics, also I wanted to comment that EVP could be the same thing.
		It could be not so much that they're manipulating this, the white noise, but it's actually that it's sort of like the inverse of a Hail Mary Pass.
		Rather than throwing one ball, like a ball into a group of people, hoping they're catching, like throwing a whole bunch of balls at one person, you're throwing out a whole bunch of frequencies, white noise being a broad range of frequencies.
		And the interaction between any one of those frequencies and another frequency can then in turn create the interaction, create a third frequency that then becomes audible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, you know, it's certainly reasonable.
		I mean, any range of frequencies could provide a medium for something to become visible or something to become heard or something that, as somebody put it earlier, I think they said we were living in the middle of some sort of spiritual scoop.
		We may be.
		And it just is those split seconds, those moments when the right frequencies or vibrations are happening when we get to see these things.
		I don't know.
		Joshua?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		I agree entirely.
		I think that that is a perfect way of describing it because that is what seems to be happening here.
		The fact that there is a disturbance of some kind in a wide range of frequencies that is going to affect both the Earth and our perceptions of what is happening around us.
		And we have to require that the scientific community is more open-minded to analyzing these things.
		And yet at the same time, I can see why they don't.
		The reason that the scientific community mainstream does not look at these things is because, hey, they are regular people like you and I are.
		They have to pay our bills.
		And there is more money in looking to consistent, predictable phenomena than there is being out there on the fringes looking for stuff that is sporadic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that, of course, is absolutely correct.
		East of the Rockies, not a lot of time.
		You're on the air with Joshua Warren.
unidentified		Hi, this is Jim from Wisconsin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
unidentified		Josh, I live with two ghosts, and they're both very possessive and very protective.
unidentified		I was wondering if you'd ever heard of such a thing, and I was also wondering if there was a best time to try to take a photograph of them with a digital camera.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not a Mormon, Ari.
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Good one, Art.
		Yes, I have heard of people living with numerous ghosts.
		And the best time to try would be between midnight and 4 in the morning, based upon the magnetosphere theory, when your side of the Earth is farthest away from the sun.
		And also, whatever time of year has the lowest amount of humidity for you.
		People often ask me, what are the conditions for creating a ghost?
		What's the formula?
		And possessiveness and an attachment to the physical world seems to be a factor, at least when we look to these ghosts that seem to have some Conscious interactive awareness, like we would think of as a traditional entity.
		So, yeah, run a dehumidifier if you have to.
		Turn the lights down low.
		Between midnight and 4 in the morning, if you don't have a camera you want to use, turn on a strobe light.
		That can help you as well, just like camera shutter speed, and you might be surprised at what you're able to see.
unidentified		Okay, thank you very much.
unidentified		Excellent show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, thank you.
		And let's go west of the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Joshua Warren.
		Hey.
unidentified		Yo, this is Leonardo from Richmond, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And what happened was the gentleman was getting ready to explain to us what the Apollo 8 camera saw on that tower with the puff of smoke, and you so scaredfully cut him off.
unidentified		I'd like to know what that camera saw from that tower when he said a puff of smoke, and he was this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as far as I know, the puff of smoke was what it saw.
		And he said a large structure, right?
		And then from it, a puff of smoke.
		That was the end of the story, as far as I know.
unidentified		No, well, he was getting ready to say what happened when the puff of smoke came up, and you cut him off and asked for his website.
unidentified		So can you finish tell us what that was after the camera?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, obviously he's not here, but again, I think that was the end of the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The puff of smoke was what was seen.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, this structure, it looks almost like a black hair, but I was told by Charles Yost that from that altitude, if indeed this is an accurate image, that tower would look like something that was 1,000 feet tall.
		And so you're talking about an extremely large black smokestack-type structure sticking out.
		And when the puff of smoke comes out, well, then the clip ended.
		And so we don't know what happened afterward, but it makes you think that the moon itself may have some structures protruding from it.
		And without getting into a great deal of detail, I will tell you that there was a lot of data that indicates the moon is actually hollow.
		And I mean, it rings like a bell when it's struck by a meteorite, for example.
		So it may be that either we or someone else are using the moon or have used the moon to mine resources from the inside and that the whole project has not ended so far.
		And I'm confident in saying that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		First time caller line.
		I've got a feeling you're going to be the last caller for Joshua Warren.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
		Well, I've got two questions for him.
		I would love to know where I could take, maybe online, a paranormal type investigation course to be certified.
		And I'm wondering where do you get cost-effectively good paranormal investigation equipment?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Okay.
		Let's tackle both.
		Is there any such thing as a certification, Joshua?
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, a certification is somewhat wishy-washy because you're talking about being certified to study something that is unexplained, so it's almost paradoxical in some ways.
		But the first thing I would do is go to paranormalcollege.com.
		If you go to paranormalcollege.com, that's a good place to start.
		And I myself have a website because I get contacted all the time by people asking me, where can I find instrumentation and equipment to research the paranormal?
		Go to howtohuntghost.com.
		One of my books is called How to Hunt Ghost.
		If you go to howtohuntghost.com, you will find not only a selection of equipment, but also a kit that I have personally put together, that I have researched.
		And aside from that, the best thing that any listener can do who wants to know about the work that I'm conducting and the events that I have coming up is to go to either howtohuntghost.com or lemurteam.com, L-E-M-U-R-T-E-A-M.com.
		Put your email address into my spam-free email database, and I will send you my e-newsletter, and you can personally find out what I have to offer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Joshua, we're out of time.
		That's it, buddy.
		It's been great.
		Thank you, and we'll look forward to having you on again.
joshua p warren ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I particularly, by the way, enjoyed the fluorescent, holding the fluorescent tube.
		That was a good one.
		I'll see you all tomorrow night from Manila in the Philippines.

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