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Feb. 11, 2006 - Art Bell
02:26:38
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dianne Arcangel - Afterlife Encounters - Lauren Weinstein - Internet Privacy
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Uh, is going to be here on the internet.
And, uh, then in the second hour, um, I'm really going to take a leap.
And, um, I don't know if it's good or bad, but we're going to be talking to somebody whose name, interestingly, is Diane Archangel.
Archangel.
And she will be talking to us about After Death Encounters.
The real McCoy.
I mean, she worked for all the real people here.
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, she worked for that agency, I'll call it, in Las Vegas.
You know, all the real... She's been down all the real roads, and... So that's gonna be a bit of a challenge for me, I suspect, but that's what's coming up, and... I think it's good.
As one of the old men of the Internet, Lauren, He's coming up in a moment.
He's been involved with the development of the net for decades now.
He began his involvement in the early 70s at the first site of the Internet's ancestor, the Defense Department ARPANET.
He created and moderates the Privacy Forum, which was founded a dozen years ago, and co-founded P-F-I-R, People for Internet Responsibility.
Where the hell are those people, by the way?
Lauren is an expert regarding a wide range of privacy issues and many other topics related to technology's impact on individuals and society.
He writes and speaks about these issues in a broad variety of published and broadcast venues.
Oh boy, do we have a lot of questions for Lauren and then Ms.
Archangel in the next hour.
It'll be quite a night.
Stay right there.
On this a very very interesting night This is one of those nights where, believe me, don't touch that dial.
Applies.
Now, Loren Weinstein, welcome to the program.
Hi Art, it's a pleasure to be back.
Good to have you.
They call you the old man of the internet.
You know, I've had a number of emails lately, Loren, that refer to me as a legend of radio.
I think we need to get these euphemisms fixed.
Sounds too post-mortem to me.
Legend, old man of... Not good.
You don't want to be a legend.
At some point it starts to get tired, doesn't it?
Yeah, that's right.
Anyway, there's so, so much to talk about with regard to the Internet.
I'm sorry I couldn't get past PFIR, People for Internet Responsibility, without laughing.
We're trying to find those responsible people.
Yeah, well, that's like, I don't know, trying to find a virgin in L.A.
or something.
There actually are.
The whole point really is that there are people who are really concerned and take a responsible view toward these issues that we're going to talk about.
But it's easy for them to get lost in all the hype, which, of course, over the recent years has tended to overtake everything regarding the Internet and the Web.
But there are people that are concerned, and I think a lot of recent events have caused even more people to become concerned as they've started to see how the Internet can really impact their life in ways that maybe they hadn't anticipated.
Well, let's look at it a little bit.
Now we have blogs.
I notice, you know, Fox News, CNN.
They're starting to read the blogs.
They're reporting them as news!
So the Internet The Internet is beginning to be where it's really happening.
Now, here's a question for you, Loren.
If somebody slanders somebody else, or commits libel, is it more difficult these days, or now easier, for it to become actionable if it occurred on the Internet?
Well, the interesting part of that question is, can you find the person who admitted the the actor the or the uh...
period you know the who was supposedly for the sake of this argument let's say
we can if you can
if you can identify that person then everything is pretty much the same as it would be in
any other context is it is a really
but but but really the interesting part is that there's a a real battle going on right now
concerning under what circumstances should you be able to identify people
who have who have been accused of committing various wrongs on the network
And so on one side of it you have situations like you've just mentioned, like slander and libel and things like that.
But then you get into the question, well, what's slander and what's libel?
What happens if it's someone criticizing a company, for example, and saying that they were cheated by a company?
Does that person have a right to anonymity?
Well, truth is always a defense against those nasty things, right?
Truth is a defense.
So if you were screwed over somehow by a company... Right, but what tends to happen is, in some cases, the action of trying to find out who that person is can be seen as an attempt to tamp down on the speech in the first place.
In other words, because people don't have lawyers to to deal with it. And then on the other side of this, you
have situations, for example, involving piracy, music piracy and film piracy and such,
where the MPAA and the RIAA and such have been going after the people that they believe are
committing these crimes or, again, accused crimes in file.
Isn't that very difficult if they go to somebody's IP and they obtain information?
It's still not absolute.
I mean, they're spoof upon spoof upon spoof.
So wouldn't the accused victim be able to say, look, sorry, it wasn't me.
Well, there have been cases where the wrong person has been accused and it's caused a lot of problems, but in most cases it tends to be fairly straightforward because a lot of people don't realize this, but the ISPs have records of all the connections.
Sure.
When you dial up, when you get an IP address from your ISP for a day or a week or however long the lease lasts on the IP number, in a lot of standard cases, most people's residential service, So what'll happen is the party that feels that it's been wronged will go to the ISP and say, you know, here's a subpoena, or here's some other kind of order, and we want to know who was on this IP address at this time.
And you run into some of these interesting situations where, like, they accuse a 90-year-old grandmother of downloading 50,000 rap songs.
And she says, well, that really isn't... That isn't me.
That isn't me.
So, there's a real battle right now going with back and forth and back and forth trying to reach a balance between what's reasonable and what's unreasonable in this regard.
Without telling you where I stand, Loren, where do you stand on both downloading of music and motion pictures?
Well, I think that clearly both of those industries have a real serious problem when it comes to piracy, and I am not in favor of piracy.
Thank you.
On the other hand...
Here's the other hand of this.
It's very important that attempts to prevent piracy not infringe on legitimate applications.
And some of the cures that have been proposed for stopping piracy basically amount to, well, shut down file sharing or build technology into digital television or into the other kinds of computer systems that do these Why is that not fair?
I mean, why is it not fair for the artists and those who represent them to try and make deals with the distributors of machines that copy this stuff to prohibit it?
That would seem kind of like a fair thing to do on their side.
It would probably be fair if you could do that without preventing non-infringing uses at the same time.
That's the problem.
The kinds of cures that have been suggested, even in terms of legislation, in some cases proposed legislation, would make it impossible for legitimate applications to be conducted without being affected as if they were piracy.
So what you have is very broad attempts to deal with a very real problem.
So, it's very complicated.
So, are you telling me that, for example, anything they would do to, say, a DVD so that it could not be copied, would affect its use so that you couldn't properly use the product?
Is that it?
That's actually a pretty easy one.
That's on the easy end of the scale.
If you want to create a DVD system that's heavily encrypted to prevent copying, that On the face of it, is one of the less controversial aspects.
Now, there is a counter-argument to that, too.
What is that?
Which is that people, according to various interpretations of the law, people have a right to back up materials that they buy.
And to keep backup copies.
Because DVDs do go bad.
CDs do go bad.
Yeah, I've been reading about that lately.
That the original lifetime they thought for CDs is all wet, and that they're actually going to deteriorate pretty quickly.
Yeah, well, they did.
All those numbers they came up with originally were based on, you know, because obviously no one's been around for a hundred years with CDs to really sit around and see what happens.
Right.
So they do accelerated testing, which attempts to simulate being around for all those years.
And it's starting to turn out, both for CDs and DVDs, that depending on a lot of factors, how they're stored, the humidity, the temperature, all kinds of things like that, they can deteriorate.
So people feel, well, not only should they have a right to be able to back up that material, but they should have a right to Watch it on more than one TV in their house, for example.
Once they figure they've bought it, they should be able to maybe watch it on their television or watch it on their digital computer system.
Watch it on that screen.
And most of these copy protection systems that have been proposed would prevent that.
In some cases, they would even have locked the DVD to a particular player.
So you can see that all the stuff seems easy at the start, but once you get into the details, devil in the details, right?
I just got so much sympathy for the people who pour their lives into the creativity that are these things.
And they have some right to be compensated for that and not to be ripped off.
I mean, it's a gigantic issue.
I agree, and I have friends here in L.A.
and in both of those industries who are very concerned about it, though you will find when you talk to people that they, even in the industries, they have a wide spectrum of views.
Everyone knows they want to deal with this problem, and they don't want those industries to be just sapped away to nothing by piracy.
On the other hand, not everybody agrees, even within those industries, What the best approach is, because one big concern is that if you try to swat this problem with too big a weapon, like using a nuclear bomb where you need something maybe a little bit less onerous, you can drive away consumers.
If consumers start to feel that they're being too restricted in how they legitimately use these materials, That could drive people to piracy just out of spite.
Okay, let's for a second move away from the movies and DVDs and let's go back to music for a second.
There has been a big drive now to allow downloading of music at a very reasonable fee, like, you know, I don't know, $0.99 or $0.99, whatever it is.
That's really reasonable.
or not i sense whatever it is uh... that's really reasonable and
is it working uh... to some degree
it is uh...
But as with everything else, there's a lot of interesting corporate interplay involved.
So, for example, while Apple iTunes, which is the 800-pound gorilla in that space, charges a flat 99 cents for basically all music, they are under a lot of pressure to change that pricing scheme by many of the record labels who want them to charge more.
And Apple is concerned, well, if we charge too much more, then this model will start to fall apart and back to people trying to do it with piracy again.
Exactly.
I was just wondering how far we had come in putting a dent in piracy by making it so reasonable.
That's a really hard metric to come up with because it's really difficult to know how much piracy there really is in the first place.
There's a lot.
There's a lot, and there's estimates all over the place, but the really tricky part of it is to figure out what the dollar losses are, because not every pirated copy necessarily represents a copy that would have been bought if it hadn't been available through a pirated means.
In other words, there are people who collect everything that they can get their hands on, like every Frank Sinatra song that's ever been done, just because it passed by on a file-sharing system.
But they never would have bought those Frank Sinatra songs.
Well, I saw an advertisement for a national ISP the other day.
I don't remember what it was, and it doesn't matter.
But part of the commercial was, oh, high-speed internet!
Now we can download music like everybody else!
And then there was a little thing at the end written, don't do anything illegal or whatever.
Right.
Please download responsibly.
That's right.
So the answer is, a lot of it's going on.
Yeah, there's a lot.
It clearly has had an impact.
Piracy has clearly had an impact on the industry, and legitimate downloading is clearly having an impact on the business models in a positive way also.
But I think we're going to find that it's very sensitive to pricing.
In other words, if you make it too expensive, people are going to move back toward the illegal side again.
It's also changing some other aspects, like when you can buy songs a la carte, it kind of threatens certain aspects of the whole album.
Well, the reason I wanted to separate the music and the movies is because with the music, I think they can come up with and maintain a model that will move most people away from piracy, or enough people away.
In the case of a motion picture, they're so damn expensive, That I don't think they're going to get a model that's going to prevent piracy.
Even though, I must say, I know people who have downloaded movies, and it's a pain in the butt.
It's long, it takes tremendous amounts of bandwidth, and then you've got to put it all together.
It's not even worth it from my point of view.
I mean, $20 for a DVD or whatever, who cares from my point of view?
But still, many will do it.
Right, but from the industry standpoint, I think there's a realization that that's only sort of a temporary condition, because the real difference between music and movies, in terms of how hard it is to download it, or to make an illegal copy, is just the number of bits.
Otherwise, it's the same stuff.
And as people do have faster broadband connections, as they have bigger and bigger hard disks, we're going to reach a point in the very near future, for those who haven't reached it already, Where it'll be just as easy to download a movie in, say, a year or two, as it was to download a CD a year ago.
Okay, brother, let me tell you how serious that is, Lauren.
The movie industry, the motion picture industry in America, is one of our leading industries.
We produce the cream of the crop of motion pictures for the entire world!
Here in LA, we're utterly dependent on it.
Well, we are the best.
I mean, Americans perhaps cannot claim, in as many categories as they used to, that we're the best.
But baby, in motion pictures, we clean up.
There's nobody even close to America.
So to see that industry wounded, perhaps mortally, is an awful thought.
I agree.
It's really a situation where I wish we could get people together.
One of the groups that I'm involved in is trying to bring together people from the entertainment industry and from the computer industry to actually meet and talk and try to reach a middle ground on this.
And it's very difficult because everyone is looking not only at the short term situation but also at what's going to happen in the long term.
And, as usual, it can be very hard to get people to kind of come together for their common interest.
That's my EEPI project.
What are you referring to here?
The hardware people and the motion picture studios are getting who to come together?
Well, all of this is... Let's keep in mind that what's happened now.
These problems that we're looking at are technology-driven problems that are all intertwined in policy.
If you view them in isolation, if you look separately at technology, and you look separately at policy, and for that matter you look separately at business, you're not going to get anywhere in terms of solving these problems.
Because the technology rushes ahead much faster than policy does.
So what you need to do is get people together in the same room, even if you have to lock them in there.
And say, hey guys, unless you settle this in a reasonable way in the end, There's not going to be anything left for anyone.
And we're going to have our movie industry move to China like everything else.
Yeah, you're making a terribly good point.
And here's a good example.
Maybe you can tell me where we are with this.
Coming out shortly is the Blu-ray DVD.
Right.
Sony's big monster.
I mean, it'll record HD DVD, even though that's also a format, HD DVD.
This Blu-ray thing is going to, what, store about 10 times as much as the current DVDs.
It's going to store high-definition, and nobody can quite agree on that format or another.
Where are we?
Well, that's turning into another VHS versus Betawar.
Yes.
And you would think that at this point, we'd know better than that.
But the manufacturers are lining up between these different formats, the HD DVD format versus the Blu-ray format.
Exactly.
These studios are kind of taking sides on it, and some of them are trying to hedge their bets.
I'm watching the battle.
What do you think?
I think it may end up being driven by hardware availability.
So like the Xbox that Microsoft put out is probably going to drive some of this.
So does that mean Sony wins?
it could well be a situation where whoever gets the most of them actually
out into consumer hands policy
uh...
Somebody named Goldfinger says, Music artists have been getting screwed by record labels forever.
Where's your sympathy there?
Yeah, you've got it.
And I must say, people who deal with motion picture companies many times also have been getting screwed.
So, yeah, I've got plenty of sympathy for that.
It's the American way, don't you know?
Lauren Weinstein is here, and we're talking about all of this.
Now, Lauren, I don't want to spend all the time on this, but I am very interested.
How soon do you think one of these formats will be out, available in America to the consumer?
Well, we already have, as I was mentioning in the Xbox, that already has... I'm talking about a DVD recorder, Blu-ray, ready to go.
A recorder?
Oh, yeah.
Well, how much do you want to spend?
Well... The first ones are going to be, as always, those things are going to be really expensive.
Well, again, the question is when.
Probably within the next year or two.
But they're going to be expensive.
Well, of course they're going to be expensive.
Alright, you've answered that.
Look, there's so much else going on.
For example, what our government is now doing.
There's a lot of people totally freaked out by You know, the art of intrusion, frankly.
The government listening in.
Now, on the one side, we've got people willing to die and drive airplanes into things that need to be caught and killed.
On the other side, we have people's privacy.
Those are two weighty issues.
A true conundrum.
Oh, man.
Big one.
What do you think?
Well, I think like most other things, it's a matter of balance.
You need to balance the competing issues in a way that makes sense without going too far off in one direction or another.
If you go too far in one way, you're not going to catch the bad guys, perhaps.
If you go too far in the other way, you might become like the bad guys by eviscerating civil liberties.
Somewhere in the middle there, there has to be a A happy medium.
You've described the problem very well.
If you were in front of a Senate committee and they were to ask you for a recommendation about how much oversight there ought to be... That's the magic word.
What would you be saying?
That word, oversight, is the key to the whole thing.
Uh-huh, I know.
The idea is that as long as you have enough different branches of government involved, of which we only have basically three, You help to minimize the potential for risks and for abuse.
That's why, of course, there's all this current controversy over the NSA domestic program listening to certain international calls.
Primarily, I think, the view is from Congress, certainly, that if there was appropriate oversight, a program like that might be very, very valuable.
But without oversight, That's when you start to have questions of who's making the decisions about particular taps, how long the information is being retained, all those sorts of things.
Then you have ways that all of this applies to the internet, too.
But it's getting so damn complicated and convoluted with the technology involved that I don't know how the people assigned to oversee do their job.
Well, the technology can help us solve those problems just like it creates them in some cases.
Remember, oversight doesn't necessarily mean real time.
You mean the minutia of monitoring what they're doing?
Right.
In a lot of cases, what oversight means is having appropriate reporting so that you can judge to what extent what's been going on was proper and didn't go too far.
Oversight also has to look at whether the reporting is even accurate.
And on top of that, you have the issue of archives, right?
What happens to the information?
So, for example, If people are being tapped, and it turns out that they were, they had nothing to do with terrorism, which reportedly is pretty much what's happened most of the time with this domestic program.
The other day, you know, I heard a report that they only had like 10 or 12 things even of interest, which is a little difficult to believe considering the probably billions of things they have to monitor.
Well, right.
That's exactly right.
And then the question comes up, well, what happened to the information from the people that weren't interesting?
And we don't know that.
Was that information thrown out?
Was it stored somewhere?
Is it still in the files?
Without oversight, like you said, we don't really know what's happening to the innocence that gets swept up in what could otherwise be useful programs.
So that's really where that ends up.
And that's why so many people have been concerned.
For example, it's the same thing with the Internet.
There's been a lot of concern about the government going after Internet records.
And people are concerned, well, what happens to the records that aren't involved in these cases?
Are the subpoenas, are the requests appropriate, given what you're trying to accomplish?
So there's lots of problems that relate in this area.
Tons of them.
In fact, it's almost completely unmanageable, from my point of view.
I just don't see how it can be managed, and I don't see how the oversight can be effective.
And yet, I have to get here of my first case, maybe you can correct me, of somebody who, oh I don't know, let's say they were talking about cheating on their taxes, and the NSA picked it up and passed it on to the IRS.
I've not heard one I don't think that's the kind of thing that's likely to come up in those contexts.
NSA does have rules concerning what's called minimization, which is basically when you hear things that you're not supposed to hear, you kind of get rid of the identifying parts of it if it's outside your mission.
On the other hand, with the domestic program that's currently in controversy, There are concerns that some of the information that might have been picked up through the warrantless wiretaps might have been used to then get warrants for wiretaps.
And that, from a legal standpoint, gets very complicated very quickly.
We don't really know.
At this stage, I guess there's more congressmen now who've been briefed to a certain extent than there were a couple of weeks ago.
But this is the problem that we're faced.
Obviously, you can't have every intelligence program out in the open, or otherwise it's not going to do a lot of good.
But there are ways to build these things within the law and to have oversight that doesn't disrupt the programs, but gives you some assurance that these programs falling into the wrong hands won't cause a lot of grief.
Because remember, somewhere down the line, these same capabilities are going to be in the hands of future presidents.
Yes.
Future administrations, and we don't know who those are going to be.
All right, let me put you in a tough spot.
Let's say you're the President of the United States right now, not George Bush, and they come to you and they say, Mr. President, look, we really do have a serious problem with Al Qaeda and organizations like.
The only way we can protect the country that you have sworn to protect ...is to listen for plans of the enemy.
We have the capability to do it.
Here's the paper, Mr. President.
Sign on the dotted line.
Would you sign that paper?
I'd have to see the paper first.
But the real answer to the question is that if I was the President of the United States and I was dissatisfied with the state of the current legal intelligence apparatus, what you could do legally, or what you could do under the FISA court, which is the court that approves these things.
I would say, alright, let's change that law.
Let's get a change in the law that allows us to do what we need to do.
And there's ways to do this without it being all out in the open.
Congress has ways of dealing with highly secure information.
It can be done without a modification of the Constitution, for example?
Presumably there's a way.
The Constitution presumably has a way to deal with these situations.
There are very broad interpretations, but I personally would want to have it on the books, in the law, because you have the future to worry about.
You do have to worry about what future presidents, future congresses are going to do with these kinds of capabilities.
But all laws really must withstand the test of the Constitution, ultimately, right?
Ultimately, yes.
Though, of course, it takes a long time in some cases.
Well, that's a good point.
You have to go through various courts.
The Supreme Court may look at it.
They may say, not today.
Bring it back in a year.
Very good point.
So they could get, presumably, several years of whatever they needed before it was struck down and they were told they can't do it.
Sure.
Exactly.
Gotcha.
All right.
In the interest of time, on to one other item, and that is China.
The word is that China has blocked the internet that China has
Has brought down the steel curtain of communism across the copper pair and the fiber optics, and they are in control of what happens, what comes and goes from mainland China.
Yes, no?
Yes.
Yes?
Yes.
And in fact, in some cases they're doing it with the cooperation of large U.S.
companies.
Now it's not all black and white completely, But it's a very, very upsetting situation to many who look at it.
The Chinese Internet is probably, I think certainly, the most highly monitored data network in the world.
It's very hierarchically based.
They have tens of thousands of people who monitor what people write, what people say.
Now, they also have access to a great deal of information that they didn't have access to just a few years ago.
But if you try to say something political, if you try to say something about various dissident groups, or if you appear to be a dissident or something like that, that kind of information is not only removed in a lot of cases or blocked in a lot of cases, but you can end up in jail.
And we have a bunch of situations in the news right now that apply directly to this.
So, for example, there's a case where Yahoo turned over addressing information.
You were talking about figuring out who's at the other end of an IP address?
Yahoo turned over information on a dissident.
Yahoo says, why I didn't know it was a dissident.
All we know is that it was a request from the Chinese government.
We have to do what the Chinese government says if we're going to operate in China.
And this guy's in jail for 10 years now.
I guess that's the truth China can say to Yahoo or any other big provider like that.
Either you live by our rules or you aren't in China.
Yeah.
There's that part of it, and then you have the issue of China blocking other sites that aren't necessarily directly involved.
So for a long time, for example, China has been blocking various results that come out from Google that they didn't like.
Now this got very controversial just within the last few weeks.
I wonder if our site's blocked in China.
Probably after tonight.
Well, good point.
But I wonder if it previously had been.
I wonder if this kind of information that for the most time we deal with on this program would be offensive to Chinese sensibilities.
But as you point out, probably after.
Thanks a lot, buddy.
Do you know how many people that is over there?
I did it again.
But seriously, right now there's a big controversy about Google because Google went a step further and they actually are now, they set up a Chinese version of Google that follows the Chinese censorship rules.
And that means that Google is actively participating with the Chinese about this.
Now, there are arguments for why they're doing this.
In general, most observers are very concerned about it.
I was actually at Google here in L.A.
a couple of weeks ago, and I gave a talk about this and some of these related issues.
Really?
Yeah, there's actually a video of that on the Vortex.com site.
Really?
Oh, that would be worth seeing.
That's Vortex.com?
Right.
I had a real pleasant time there, and we talked about all these kinds of Internet issues, and I tried to make the point that it's not enough to not do evil.
Google has a saying, don't be evil.
And I think they really try to do that, but the problem is that once you start getting the business concerns tied in there, it can be very difficult to determine what's evil and what's not.
Their argument is, well, giving people access to information in China, at least to a certain extent, is better than them not having any at all.
And that's kind of the way the U.S.
government also looks at China in many different contexts.
And I sort of agree with that.
I mean, we're going to slide China slowly in the direction of democracy.
And I think that certainly is happening on the capitalist side of things, if not politically yet.
There's even movement politically, really.
It's a valid argument.
On the other hand, at some point many observers say you have to take an ethical stand because in a lot of cases what's happened with China is people have been jailed for a long period of time because they say things that to most of the Western world would be completely reasonable things to say.
So there is concern when companies Get too far into bed in these situations.
Like I said, it's not black and white.
These are complicated situations.
I personally think that Google went too far in this case with actually setting up a Chinese Google that obeys what the Chinese say.
On the other hand... It was probably that or Google gone.
Well, or Google blocked.
It would have been a situation where... Or Google blocked.
Either way, gone.
Right, they would have had the ability to still run standard Google But the Chinese would have done the blocking.
Now, the question is, from a moral standpoint, is it different to say, OK, I'm just presenting the information.
If you block it, you're going to block it.
Is that different than saying, I'll help you block it.
I will help you block it.
And that's the question.
And that's where the controversy is.
Understood.
And I'd also like to go on to say, I love Google.
It is my home page on a lot of my computers because it's invaluable.
Yeah, and you probably know there's another case with Google right now where I fully support what they did.
It's been very controversial also.
What's that?
Where the Justice Department ordered them to turn over masses of search strings for their attempt to defend the COPPA case.
That's the Child Online Protection Act.
Right.
So the Justice Department went to Google, they went to AOL, they went to MSN and Yahoo, And everybody basically turned over the data except Google.
And Google had various reasons for this.
They had privacy and trade secrets and various other things.
But they have said they didn't want to do it.
And I support that view because even though the argument was made, well, they're not asking for who made the searches.
You know as well as I do that there's plenty of personal information that's in those searches that we do on Google.
Sure.
And on the other search, people put in addresses, they put in phone numbers, they put in names, they put in social security numbers.
They shouldn't.
They shouldn't, but they do.
And there's all kinds of personal information in there, and then you have the question, well, what's next?
I mean, if the government feels they can get hold of a week's worth of searches without the IP addresses, what happens when the next question comes up?
Remember, this wasn't a terrorism case.
A crime that was committed.
This was attempting to support the government's case on a law that would prevent access of children to harmful material.
However harmful material would be defined.
It's already been turned down by the Supreme Court a couple of times.
So in that case, Google was on the right side.
But you see, I have sympathy for that as well.
If we don't guard our youth If we don't guard our youth, Lauren, then we're giving away our future.
You know, it's a very weighty issue.
I'd agree with you, but when you have a law that says, for example, material harmful to children, who defines what harmful is?
Would it be harmful to children to tell them stories about UFOs?
They could be scared.
They could be terrified.
Is that harmful to children?
Well, there are people who would probably think it was harmful to children, because it's not just pornography we're talking about here.
No, but there is that, and there are people out there trolling for children.
But then you have the problem that the internet is international.
I know.
If you block everything, I agree with you, I want to protect children too, but there's these realistic issues that get in the way when you look at the technology.
All these things are going to move offshore.
All right, listen, Lauren.
We just have this hour, and it's done.
We need to do a whole program.
I'll get hold of my producer.
We'll do an entire program.
Anytime.
Well, coming up then pretty soon, because there's a lot of really heavy-duty stuff here.
So I want to, number one, thank you for being here tonight.
A little over a month ago, I lost my dear love, my soulmate.
Ramona and so this is going to be inevitable it's going to be inevitable that that subject is going to come up and I have a you know a few things to sort of tell you run by you and certainly run by Diane so we'll see how this goes it's going to be about communication with those who have passed on and it's coming up in a moment
I did indeed lose my soulmate a little over a month ago now
and I told you when it came in I would give you the results after even the
deep tissue samples came back.
.
My dear wife died of severe asthmatic chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
Asthma.
She went in her sleep.
And so I have that to hold on to, and I'm going to dispense with anything else other than to tell you, if you have a husband or you have a wife and you're listening to me right now, that don't ever go to bed at night without telling the person you're with you love them.
Don't ever do that.
I have little to hang on to.
I have the fact that in 15 years, my wife and I never were apart.
We were as close as two people can possibly be.
And the day of her passing, I put my arms around her, and as I did every day, I gave her a kiss and said, Honey, I love you.
And that was the last time I saw her, so if there is If there is a message, and there is, don't ever let that day pass because you have to know it can always be the last day.
Now, Diane is a Southerner, as you're going to detect right away.
Diane, welcome to the program.
Thank you so much for inviting me, Art, especially at this time of your life.
I really appreciate it.
How does somebody like you get a last name like Archangel?
I mean, you've had to have taken a lot of ribbing about that.
I haven't.
Actually, it's very common in Italy.
It was my husband's name.
And by the way, you and I have that in common.
My husband also died two years ago unexpectedly.
I'm so sorry.
So we're going to hang in here together.
Okay.
I read in your book that your husband was a skeptic.
In fact, he really didn't believe particularly in an afterlife.
Is that correct?
That's absolutely correct.
He was absolutely positive there was no afterlife.
Oh, that's different.
Absolutely positive.
Can you explain to me how he could have been absolutely positive?
I cannot explain it to you.
He just was Sure.
However, he was the biggest supporter of my work from everyone I knew.
He supported it more than anyone because he saw the difference in believing and in not believing.
He did?
In other words, he saw value in people believing but did not himself?
That's right.
Art, he saw whenever someone believed, they didn't have the fear of death.
Like he did.
He had such a fear of death, because he said, when we die, that's it.
There is no more.
We talked about it quite a bit.
Well, you must have asked him and said, honey, how are you coming to that conclusion?
He said he didn't know.
He just didn't believe.
Well, then it's like an article of faith.
There you go.
And yet he supported your work because he felt that it helped people.
He did.
In fact, several of his friends came to me after losing children, and I worked with them, and he saw the difference that it made when they believed, and especially after They had had an afterlife encounter.
That is such an unusual position.
Very unusual, actually.
But I guess that's great.
He supported your work.
Now, you have worked with the best.
I mean, I've looked carefully at where you've been and, you know, the people you've worked with.
For example, I think a friend of mine in Las Vegas perhaps, eh?
Right, absolutely.
Mr. Bigelow.
That's right, Bob Bigelow.
You've worked with some heavyweights in this area, so I've got a lot of respect for what you're about to say, but I must tell you, Diane, I think that on balance, I believe there is another side.
I'm not positive.
I'm not positive.
There is this hard science part of me, Diane, that is injecting doubts into it.
But I think I believe.
I think I believe.
How about that?
That's about as close as I can get.
You sound pretty much like me.
Really?
You've done all the research, and I guess you have many stories.
To tell, I'm sure you do, but that's you, huh?
You're not absolutely certain, even after all you've researched?
Well, I'll tell you, after all my research, in fact, I have over 10,000 cases in my files.
I myself have had a near-death experience.
Really?
And what I believe is that consciousness survives.
Now, for how long, where it goes, that's what I'm not sure of.
I do really honestly believe it survives.
Well, that too is interesting.
You're injecting sort of the possibility that consciousness may survive, but not for long?
See, I don't know.
I don't know how long.
I believe some people reincarnate.
However, it doesn't seem that everyone does.
I'll tell you what, we are so much just on the cutting edge of trying to understand What afterlife encounters are, what survival is, what consciousness is.
We're just now beginning to understand the brain.
Well, the mind is so much... Oh, it's that in comparison.
Boy, I'm with you on that.
We're moving into areas of consciousness research and all the rest of it that are probably going to meet up with I don't know what scientists are talking about with regard to other dimensions and all sorts of things.
It's like the whole world is ahead of us and open in this area and finally we're beginning to move into it and investigate it and it's sort of coming out of the closet.
A little bit.
So there are some exciting things happening.
Do you imagine, Diane, that one day communication with consciousness, not encased in a physical body, will be possible?
I don't know.
I would like to think that it is.
And when we say we're just at this cutting edge, an example of that is that I did a five-year international study Now, Art, I had heard about afterlife encounters and how healing they were and how comforting they were, but when I said, I want to know specifically how comforting, what do they do?
How does it help with the grief?
I turned to my colleagues in the paranormal field, in the psychology field and bereavement.
We looked through all the literature and not one study had ever been done that focused on specifically Are they comforting?
How do they help grief?
That's why I turned and began doing my study.
Well, I believe, Diane, they are comforting, and obviously they would help grief, but are they real?
That's the question.
Well, in my book, one chapter is devoted to what is the evidence.
All right, let's stop right there, and why don't you tell me What is the evidence?
Alright, the evidence is... I listed six conditions in my book.
One, number one, is when the apparition states unknown information to the witness.
The witness then proves that later.
I'll give you an example.
In my book, Beverly, a mother had a terrible feeling one night when her son Tommy wanted to go out.
He went out anyway.
Terrible, terrible snowstorm.
She said when he wasn't home by about midnight, she began calling the hospitals.
Sure enough, the next morning, the police arrived at her door, said, we are so sorry to tell you this, but Tommy was murdered.
They went inside, sat down in her living room.
They began telling her the problem was that Tommy was murdered, but then his body was transported.
They said, no crime scene, no witnesses, no suspects.
They said, there's nothing we can do.
This will probably be a cold case.
Well, Beverly began crying, of course, and saying, Tommy, Tommy, who would do this to you?
She said, overhead, the chandelier in her living room shuddered and vibrated so violently that the police at one time stopped her.
They were afraid that a fire was going to break out.
They continued.
All right, still.
Like I said, no suspects, nothing they could do, cold case.
The day after the funeral, Beverly's relatives were still there.
She called the police department.
They said, we're sorry, there's just not anything we can do.
We don't have any kind of crime scene, nothing.
That morning, Tommy came to his mother, said, Mom, Mom, hurry!
Wake up, wake up!
You'll find my blood in the snow at Washington and St.
James Place, but you've got to go right now.
It's gonna melt.
Beverly went running down the stairs, her family thought she was crazy with grief, but she insisted.
They drove to the exact site where Tommy said his blood would be found in the snow, and there it was, melting, exactly like he said.
Wow.
Beverly said, Diane, yeah, I couldn't call the police and tell them my dead son told me this.
So she said, went to a phone booth, I called them and said I had an anonymous tip.
Sure enough, the police came out.
They took the DNA samples.
It was Tommy's blood.
But here, Art, is the thing, is that from there, the police found three eyewitnesses.
All three eyewitnesses told exactly what happened with Tommy.
Wow.
Someone, a man, was trying to rob him, chased him around and around and around the van, until finally, of course they were stabbing him as he was running, Then they took his billfold and they took his ring, threw him in the van and sped off.
Right.
This is the thing, they said, can you tell us the suspect's name?
They said, all we know is his nickname was Light.
Ah, there was the Light shaking overhead in Beverly Chandelier.
Wow, that's very impressive.
I'll give you that.
It's very impressive.
How sure are you of the accuracy of that story?
Every story that's listed in the book, I checked it out.
I either asked for police reports, witnesses, some type of verification.
Alright, you obviously really did your homework then.
You're not just relating a story, you're telling me You checked, you verified with police or whatever that this really did happen.
That's very impressive.
That's very impressive.
And that's just a quick overview of her story.
I mean, it went on and on and on with the dog.
And it was just, to me, of all the stories, I mean just, they're all interesting and they're all very profound in some way.
But Beverly, the way she wrote that, It's just, I'm there with her.
I'm running with the dog.
I'm running down the street.
Just fascinating.
Alright, here's something I want to ask you about.
There are Buddhists, for example, who believe that if a loved one dies, that you have some number of days, maybe 20, 21 days, in order to concentrate hard on this person and invite their spirit into you.
The reason I'm mentioning this is because there are many who think that when somebody passes that their spirit is more connected to Earth, you know, for some period of time, some relatively short period of time before they move on more reasonably.
Do you believe that?
Well, there's part of that and part of that I don't.
I do not believe that there are earthbound spirits.
And that strictly comes from my research.
In over my 10,000 case studies, I have never had one report of an apparition who was earthbound, who was stuck here.
Well, okay, but it's... Now, what you're saying is different.
You're saying they're inviting them in.
Yes.
Inviting?
Yes, we can invite.
And I hear the word conjure a lot.
Yes.
We cannot conjure.
If they want to come in and help us, they can.
Okay.
There's only one reason that an afterlife encounter takes place.
That's when the apparition wants to come in and help everyone for their highest and best good.
Everyone involved.
So, let me ask it a different way then.
Is there a period of time I shouldn't have said earthbound.
Is there a period of time when the spirit, or while the spirit, is more connected to what the spirit just left than it ultimately will be?
There does not seem to be a period of time when they're most connected.
From what I understand, and just like I said, from years of research, right now it appears that when the spirit leaves the body, it goes up.
There's absolutely nothing below that it is connected to.
It goes up of its own free will.
It can return here of its own free will.
But it's completely disconnected, disassociated from all things on earth.
And you're suggesting the direction is always up?
It is up.
So what about traditional biblical hell and the trip down?
You know, and here again, it's just in my case studies of over 10,000, I've never found anything negative, anything hellacious, anything other than positive love, light, healing.
In fact, I had a call this afternoon.
Somebody found from your website called me and said, how can I get in touch with my mom?
I've just begged, I've pleaded, I've tried everything I can to get her to come in and see me.
But you know Art, they're so used to love, light, peace and joy, they won't come down to anything that's what they consider grasping or clinging.
They're not used to that.
They're only used to positive love, light, peace and joy.
Okay, so you conclude then from 10,000 studies that there is no hell?
I have not found a hell.
Well, I don't know, that's kind of comforting, I suppose.
On the other hand, though, perhaps you would not find those kinds of cases because they're gone and burning.
That could very well be.
Okay.
Alright, so you wrote this book, After Life Encounters.
I wonder what prompted you to write it.
I mean, to decide to write a book is a really big thing to do.
It's a big decision.
And I'm curious why you did it.
You got that right.
It was a major decision.
I'll tell you, I did it to change worldview.
The worldview?
The worldview!
all that's no minor uh... the whole once again diane archangel who has written a book that's no
small matter alien uh...
aliens online after life encounters ordinary people extraordinary
experiences life
after loss.
Boy, Life After Loss.
So, Diane, before we plunge into changing the worldview, define for me what you think The present world view is, I mean we have a rather narrow idea of it all here in the U.S.
What is the world view with regard to afterlife communications?
Right now the world view is the living have our world and the other side has theirs.
And these two don't mix.
And it's simply the basis of fear.
Fear of the unknown.
They don't know what they are.
So to change worldview, we've got to extinguish this cycle, what I call disenfranchisement.
People who experience afterlife encounters don't talk about them in public because listeners will discount them.
Listeners discount them because they don't understand what they are.
And they don't understand what they are because experiencers don't talk about them.
It's that cycle.
Someone has to break the cycle.
That's what we're trying to do.
Ninety people joined me in the book, and some wonderful colleagues.
Rupert Sheldrake.
I'm sure you're probably familiar with Rupert.
I've interviewed him.
Sure, he's a biologist from London.
He joined me.
We just want to stamp out this cycle.
And replace it with?
Replace it with the truth.
The truth is, afterlife encounters are normal, They're healthy, and if the public can just understand that, we can change worldview.
Then everyone can talk about them openly, honestly, because the fact is, they bring healing to everyone, not just the bereaved.
They bring healing to everybody.
In other words, a universal understanding of the fact that it is occurring.
You know, but Diane, to change that world view, you're going to have to go back to the chapter on proof.
Alright, let's go back to the chapter on proof.
Those six conditions.
Alright, we've already talked about the first condition with Beverly, where an apparition told unknown information proven correct later.
Very impressive, yes.
The second condition, whereby we find evidence for life after death, is collective.
In other words, when more than one person witnesses the apparition.
An example of this is Charles Vance.
Charles Vance is a very wealthy businessman in Houston.
He's successful.
He's just not the type you would ever think would have anything like an afterlife encounter.
He's busy.
He pushes through.
He's kind of a bull.
And a friend of mine told me that Charles Vance had encountered Murphy.
Who?
Murphy.
Now what surprised me about this was Murphy owned a little tiny vacuum cleaner store.
He took an old home, not even a brick home, just a little frame house.
In the front of it, he put his vacuum cleaner store and parts.
In the back, he lived with his wife and children.
No one would ever drink Murphy had any money.
Well, according to this friend of mine, Charles Vance, Had this apparitional experience with Murphy, and Murphy told him there was an astonishing amount of money he had hidden in the wall.
Yes!
And he wanted Charles to call his widow and tell him.
Tell her.
Tell her, sure.
Sure, right down the wall.
Get the money.
Well, Charles said, I can't do something like that.
They would think I was nuts.
You could stay good and close to the phone for me.
Okay.
So, yeah, this is impressive stuff.
Something that only the person who had passed away could possibly know, and a secret they held, like where money's stored or stashed or something, yeah?
Right, and I mean, and Art, I had probably, I don't know, maybe 200 cases in my files with money hidden in the rafters, hidden in the basement, hidden in jars, but what Attracted me to this account was, number one, Murphy.
I mean, he wore overalls that were holey and shirts that were just... You would never dream he had a dime.
So, I went over and talked to Charles, interviewed him and his wife.
Now, Gene, his wife, said Charles would not have ever told anybody about this.
Never.
I can believe that, sure.
But Murphy kept coming to him more often and more often and more often.
Tell Lorraine there's money.
Tell Lorraine there's money.
Alright, now did Murphy know him?
Murphy had been his boss at one time.
Charles went over and would just help him around the store.
Alright, so there was a relationship.
There was a relationship.
That's fine, good.
So, finally, Charles Vance's wife called the widow, told the widow.
Of course, she just kind of left it off.
But then she called back, and much to their surprise, she said she was going to tear down that wall the next week anyway, to have the house redone.
So she decided to go ahead and knock a hole in there.
Art, she found thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in cash.
Now this is why it was collective.
The widow called the daughter, who lived in Florida, now this was in Houston, called the
daughter in Florida, said, you won't believe this, I found money.
And the daughter said, Mom, Dad has been coming to me in dreams, telling me, and then she
described the exact scene, word for word, the leaves in the trees, what the house looked
like, there was a sign Murphy was standing by that Charles had described.
So the daughter described word for word, verbatim, what Charles had already told his wife.
So here we have a person in Houston, a person in Florida, the same apparitional account
So that's collective.
And that, again, is just a very quick synopsis of the story.
It's really long.
Yeah, that's very impressive.
And you, again, you checked it out very carefully.
Absolutely.
Checked it out very carefully.
Alright, well, I mean, that seems to be clear evidence that some consciousness Obviously survives and can get a message across.
Yes?
Yes, that's the second.
Now the third condition that we consider as evidence is when the apparition is unknown to the witness at the time.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah.
But is later identified.
Okay.
Let me think.
Okay, one example is also in the book, and this again is a very quick synopsis.
Debbie Fancher is a high school teacher here in Houston.
She called me one morning, told me that she was having this dream of this young girl, beautiful, beautiful young girl, a teenager, and the teenager kept saying, tell my dad not to feel guilty.
Be sure and go tell my dad not to feel guilty.
Debbie said, the problem is, I don't think it's a dream, and I have a horrible, horrible feeling it's an apparition, but I don't know who this girl is.
Debbie and I talked back and forth, back and forth.
Finally, she said the only teenager that she knew that had even been sick was her high school principal's daughter.
Right.
But he was brand new to the school.
She knew nothing about him, except somebody mentioned that his daughter was sick.
She had some type of infection, but no big deal.
Debbie said, I said, well, can you go back to school?
And don't ask if the daughter died, but can you say how is What's the principal's daughter doing?
Sure.
Debbie Ditch went back to school and found out that, in fact, her name was Amanda, that she did not survive the infection.
Debbie was at school some weeks later, walking down the hall, looked up, and here was this exact duplicate of the girl who had been coming to her in her dreams.
Another teacher was standing there and said, Debbie, Debbie, you look like you've seen a ghost.
Debbie said, I think I have.
Oh, no, no, no.
That was Amanda's sister.
They're identical, almost like twins.
Of course, they're sisters, but they look like twins.
They're so much alike.
Like you said, Art, I went, checked out all these stories.
Debbie invited me to meet with the principal, his wife, and their two children.
Yes.
They verified that, in fact, Amanda was so identical to the sister, That when they were in high school, the teachers and the students confused the two of them all the time.
And the thing that was so outstanding that Debbie said she just thought it was something in her imagination, was why would a dad feel guilty when his daughter had succumbed to some kind of an illness?
But they, in fact, verified that as well, that he did.
I won't go into personal, I won't go into why, but he did.
I, okay, if, you know, these stories you're telling me are really beyond pale.
I mean, they really would suggest, we're looking at proof here, Diane, and since you're the one who's done the investigative work in many cases in nailing down the truth of these stories, I wonder how you can be left with any doubt at all About the whole question of communication, or do you not have any doubt?
I mean, earlier you suggested that maybe you did.
So, how could you do these investigations and still have doubt?
Oh, what a great question.
It's because I haven't had one.
Didn't you say at the very beginning of the interview, you've had an NDE?
I have, but during my near-death experience, I did see apparitions.
I talked with God.
But, I mean, in my waking state, in my life here, in my normal life, I have not had an afterlife encounter.
So, yeah, in fact, we're talking about why I wrote the book.
I wrote the book because I wanted to change worldview.
I had these 90 people saying, Let's go for it.
Let's do it.
Let's all take a stand together.
We've got to stop the cycle.
My colleagues, let's go.
Let's go.
Let's do it.
But I had just lost my husband.
Yes.
And there was all this turmoil going around.
And Art, I want you to know I wrote it for them.
I wrote to try to help the world, to try to make it a better place.
And the final analysis is this helped me.
This is what's gotten me through.
I could honestly say this book is what's gotten me through the toughest time of my life.
I turn back to these stories.
I read them.
I believe them.
Alright Diane, but you did have the experience that you related a moment ago.
That would suggest that consciousness survives and indeed can move from the physical.
At least it would suggest that much.
Of course, that still might be the... What kind of NDE did you really... I mean, what were the physical conditions that produced what you had?
I had had a hysterectomy.
I was in the hospital.
After surgery, the doctor said they can't understand it.
They don't understand why I simply stopped breathing.
Was resuscitated, brought back.
Okay, that definitely qualifies.
So, I'm not sure, how can you come back from that, knowing that you physically did die, and you had an experience that you could probably relate to us, I'm sure, in great detail, which included talking to God.
I mean, that would seem fairly strong evidence that would give you quite a bit of faith regarding afterlife.
It does, and that's where I get my belief that, yes, consciousness survives death, but for how long and where it goes, I'm just not that sure.
But that's where I really firmly get my belief, and again, with the stories in my book.
Well, wouldn't it be a reasonable conclusion that consciousness, if it survives one minute outside the physical, would survive eternally?
More than likely, outside the physical.
Absolutely eternally.
If it can make one minute, it can make forever, can't it?
I believe, and what is consciousness?
It's energy.
Energy never dies, it's out there.
Gary Schwartz wrote about that in his book, and I know you have interviewed Gary.
I have indeed.
Of course, the big question is, is it coherent?
It's definitely energy, but energy could be dispersed and non-coherent.
And you and I are talking about survival of consciousness.
That's very coherent.
Yes.
And we said, well, it has to be coherent.
It has to be where at least some of them can communicate.
I mean, look at Beverly's story with her son Tommy, and Charles with Murphy, and Debbie with Amanda.
Right.
Here's one for you.
Does it occur frequently that a departed one contact somebody absolutely unrelated to the person grieving, for example, and makes a request to have a message passed.
Is that a frequent occurrence?
Very frequent, Art.
It is?
It absolutely is very frequent.
In fact, that's what we were just talking about with Debbie.
Yes.
Where Amanda came to her and said, here, I take this to my dad.
Yes.
It does happen.
And can you imagine the reasons for that?
In other words, that perhaps the person is unable to contact their loved one directly?
Or that person is not receptive enough for that to occur?
Or what do you imagine, Diane?
I'll tell you, there are a number of reasons.
And one is, as you just said, Maybe the person is not receptive.
It could be that the person is in the throes of grief, simply too much to be open to something like that.
It could be, let's say, saying that there is survival, that consciousness survives, that the personality survives.
It could be that that personality believes it may be too much, that his or her loved one here on earth is grieving too much.
It would be overwhelming if the apparition came in, the personality came in. Boy, I'll
tell you, Diane, I can underscore that one for you. I've been in this grief
process now a little bit over a month and I've never felt anything like it in my whole life. It's
actually, it's not just mental, it's physical.
My God, physical things happen to you when you grieve really hard.
I mean, your vision will blur.
Weird things happen to you in this process.
It, of course, the mind has great control over the body.
We all know that.
And believe me, in a situation like that kind of serious grieving, Your mind, or something, imposes physical problems on you as a result of it.
Losing weight, just all kinds of things.
Absolutely.
In fact, I wrote about that in Life After Loss.
The minute we get the message that our loved one has died, there is a chemical release in the brain that circulates through our entire body.
Really?
It's the same thing as a physical hit.
People ask me all the time, can you help me?
Can you give me advice?
I'm not an advice giver.
The number one thing I do say, though, is you must drink at least 8 ounces of water every hour.
Every hour?
8 ounces?
Every hour.
at least eight ounces there are uh... many things that uh...
that you don't know about my wife ramona You're about to learn a few of them.
I've been contacted.
I do believe that I've been contacted.
I received, I don't know, about 11,000 condolence messages.
I understand there are thousands of cards that have come in that I haven't had I don't know the... I haven't said go ahead and send them to me and they've been sent to the network.
Anyway, of these thousands I was unable of course to read them all.
Thank you all again so much for them all.
But something popped out at me and I believe I've been contacted and here's the way I'm gonna leave it.
What you're about to hear came from a German lady Uh, in the southern part of the U.S.
I'll leave it at that, alright?
I'm not going to name her because she doesn't want to be named.
I'm going to read you what she has written to me.
She's spoken to me.
She has never asked me for anything.
She is not a public figure in any way.
I'll just read this.
Dear Art, I'll try to read it.
Dear Art, First of all, I want to express my sincere and heartfelt sympathy that Ramona had to leave you behind here on Earth.
Art, she didn't leave you by choice.
Matter of fact, she just passed away so rapidly that at first even she didn't know what was happening to her.
I'd really like to talk to you about Ramona since I am a medium and empath.
Ever since I was a child, I picked up spirits and it scared me.
I felt them around me.
When they decided to use me to deliver messages to their loved ones that had been left behind.
I hear their messages.
I feel their spirit around me.
I don't see them.
Not until 1997 did I find out I was a medium.
A psychic told me that.
And now it all makes sense and it's no longer scary to me.
Why Ramona chose me instead of, say, Sylvia Brown or somebody else like her was decided long before her passing.
Art, I heard you last night.
That was the night I talked about Ramona, and you need to know what happened and are waiting for further reports from the coroner.
We have those now, of course.
Ramona's heart just stopped.
Art, it happened within a second or two.
How do I know that?
Well, one day after her passing, I was lying on the couch watching TV, getting a sensation that my heart would just stop.
It was scary to me because my doctor had just ordered a cartilage stress test for me.
My heart is just fine, by the way.
I asked my spiritual guide what was going on.
I was told that it was not me, but rather Arts Ramona trying to tell me something.
She has been around me a lot, wanting me to get in touch with you.
I kept putting it off, but your wife is very persistent.
You see, I have the experience before, a soul doesn't leave me alone until I deliver the message to their loved ones.
Ramona can be very persistent when she wants to, and does not take no or procrastination for an answer.
And so here I am.
I told her that you don't know me from beans.
She just said, don't worry about it.
Just deliver the message.
She guided me to write, and there were some people at Premier, asking them to contact you.
But now back to what Ramona told me.
No, she didn't know it was her time to go.
It came as a total surprise to her.
She had no pain or distress passing over.
Her heart just stopped.
Her heart was also weakened from all the medication she had taken for so many years.
Her allocated time on Earth was finished.
Only Ramona didn't know about it.
My departed mother and tower were there to greet her.
As far as I understand, it was my mother that had some input that I was chosen to be Ramona's messenger.
Ramona was first in shock that she had crossed over.
Then she got a temper tantrum about it.
She felt that it wasn't fair.
Then she tried to negotiate to come back into her body.
She didn't want to leave you.
She was thinking more about you than about herself.
She has calmed down now, but she's not a happy camper.
She's at peace and accepted that she's not allowed, that which she is not allowed to change, but it doesn't mean that she still doesn't have a little temper every now and then.
But there are many other souls that are helping her along and shortly she'll be all calm.
About paying those bills ahead of time, as you mentioned on the air, maybe Deep down in her subconscious, she knew.
But what I'm getting at is she liked to pay bills ahead of time.
She liked to be organized and ahead of things.
Boy, is that right.
And the temper?
Let me tell you folks, Ramona had a flash temper.
Sometimes she would get angry and you'd ask her, what's the matter, hun?
And she wouldn't know.
She would just be angry.
She ended up taking Something that was a miracle for her about five years ago called Zoloft.
I'm sure you've heard of it.
And for her it was a miracle.
But she had this flash temper.
This lady could not have known that.
Not possibly.
And so that would be Ramona getting on the other side and she'd be Angry, to use a polite term.
Anyway, she goes on here.
I'm also picking up from the other side, but it hasn't come through very clearly yet, that you are left behind to finish something big.
Ramona also said that for you to return more actively to the airwaves is a first step.
Now get this.
She also said to watch Yeti.
and pay very close attention to him.
Yeti is special.
He can pick up Ramona's spirit in the house.
Those two always had a special bond between them.
Kind of a silent understanding art.
Yeti is going to need special attention right now.
He's missing Ramona very much.
Now let me stop reading this and tell you Ramona practiced the craft.
Ramona Yeti was Ramona's... What's the right word?
Familiar.
I guess familiar is the right word.
This lady... I've never said that on the air.
There's no way this lady could have known about Yeti.
No way in hell.
Anyway, she goes on.
Ramona likes very much when you talk to her, which I've been doing constantly.
She's still with you and will be until the day it will be your time to cross.
She told me to tell you to relate To the song of the movie, Titanic.
Yeah, that'll be her.
And the love will go on and on.
She also wants me to tell you thank you for your love and all those wonderful years and the wonderful life you gave me.
I love you for eternity.
My flesh is in the ground, but I'm still with you now and always.
Art, I'm sorry to put all this into a cold email.
I would rather have related it to you via telephone or in person.
By the way, we did do that.
I'm a 66-year-old retired senior.
I'm not a professional psychic.
I'm trying to eliminate parts here that would identify her.
I haven't written a book.
Don't talk about my gift to the media.
What I told you is between you, Ramona, and me.
If you want to relate the message, that's up to you.
I'm here for you 24-7.
Anyway, it goes on and on.
Let me see if I can pick up other parts that are important.
She qualifies it at the end.
I'm not a drug addict.
I don't have mental illness or take Prozac or anything.
Um, and so forth and so on.
So then there was another communication.
I'm going to give you a little of that.
Actually, there have been several more.
And then I'm going to tell you how all this, why all this is so impactful to me.
She writes, Dear Art, I feel you're not much better today.
Well, I wasn't.
Matter of fact, I'm picking up even more despair from you than yesterday.
You feel so lost.
Oh, yes.
Your mind and thoughts are going in all directions.
Feels as if you're lost in a fog.
Oh, man.
Everything is blurred.
Now, you might say all of this is general stuff that would relate to anybody grieving, and I guess it probably does.
I feel you have problems with thought patterns.
Yes, indeed.
Hell, I have problems driving.
What I'm picking up is that you're still asking the same questions in your mind over and over again, the same questions we talked about yesterday.
This is after I had called her.
Then I need write the answers down so you can read them again and again if need be.
She tells me your mind is wandering all over the place and that words over the telephone rush by you like waves rushing back into the sea from the shore and God that was true.
These are the questions you're still asking.
Why didn't she wake me up?
I could have helped her.
Maybe I could have prevented her from crossing.
The other thought that is constantly in your mind, why didn't I feel her getting up?
Why did I sleep through all of this?
To your question, why didn't she wake me up?
Ramona says she never really fell asleep after you went to bed.
She felt okay, but after a while she felt that she might get up, get another flare up.
She also tells me she wanted to be more fit for the next day so you two could enjoy the day without her having breathing problems.
Oh, right on.
She tells me she would definitely have awakened you if she felt she would have another bad asthma attack and needed your help.
Two could have, I have helped her.
Maybe I could have prevented her crossing over.
No Art, there's nothing you could have done to change any part of the event.
It was Ramona's time to go.
To, why didn't I feel her getting up?
Why did I sleep through all this?
Ramona slipped very quietly out of bed not to wake you.
She believed that everything was fine.
She just decided to give herself another treatment to prevent another severe asthma attack in the morning or afternoon.
She didn't want to worry you needlessly.
As I mentioned to you yesterday, Ramona and your guides decided that you should not be present when God took her home.
My guide tells me they tried to do this as gently as possible for you and Ramona.
He tells me they knew how traumatic it would have been for you and also Ramona.
She was so angry when she realized what happened, but it would have been much harder on her if you had been in the room with her.
They knew it would have been traumatic and they wanted to make it as gentle as possible.
They wanted to take her to a place where she could be comforted and make her understand the why and the reason why they took her from you.
Anyway, There's one more part I want to cover here.
I've had much communication from this woman now.
I have some more news about your Ramona.
What a wonderful person.
What a wonderful soul she is.
She's doing much better today.
I feel her around me full of accomplishment.
She told me why.
Remember in my last email I wrote that she'll be with you until it's your time to cross?
At the time I was not told the specifics, but today she did.
Aren't she is, and please note I said is, really something else.
Wow!
What a spirit!
What willpower!
They'd never seen anything like that over there.
Ha ha!
Yes, that's Ramona.
She refused to have down time to recuperate from crossing over so suddenly without warning.
As most souls do.
She refused to take the assignment they'd chosen for her from birth.
That'd be her alright.
She insisted to be your personal spiritual guide.
She fought like a tiger for days, and finally today they gave in.
Normally it takes years of training to become a guide, but Ramona insisted.
She told them, I took care of art for 15 years.
What training do you think I need?
One of your regular guides will be with her at all times, but believe me, she's in charge.
Now, it goes on and on, and I will not burden you with any more, but I'm telling you that there are endless numbers of things, like her flash temper, like her determination, like the fact that Yeti is indeed... I knew for a fact, and she told me, that Yeti Was her familiar?
All of these things, and especially the temper part, this woman never in a million years could have known about.
So... I've been contacted.
Diane, I'm sorry to have absorbed so much time with all of that, but I'm telling you, Diane, it hit me between the eyes like a bullet.
And there's no question about it.
That's Ramona through and through and through and through.
And she contacted this lady who has had no relationship to me whatsoever.
What do you think?
I'll tell you Art, I run across this so frequently.
Doing research with mediums at the University of Virginia, we found that they often pick up people they don't know, such as the case with this The 66-year-old German lady.
Yes.
Picking up Ramona.
This happens.
They drop in.
They talk to whomever they need to in order to get the message to their loved ones.
All right.
It's not just me.
I mean, obviously, I'm going to attach meaning to things very easily in my state.
Now, Evelyn Paglini was very close to Ramona.
Evelyn Paglini is a witch.
Ramona was a practitioner of the craft as well as a Catholic, as well as that mixes.
I read this to Evelyn, and she said, oh my God, Art.
And she knew Ramona very, very well.
I'll have Evelyn on.
She'll confirm this later.
She said, oh my God, Art, that's the real McCoy.
Yeah.
So this lady in the South, unknown to me, somehow, for some reason, I mean, it's so odd.
I'm telling you, and I'm telling the audience in the world, it's the real McCoy.
There's no question about it in my mind.
I have been contacted.
So there you go, Diane.
I believe it, Art.
Yeah, well, good, because it's true.
In fact, if this lady next time you talk to her, if she's interested, we could always use more really good mediums in our research program at the university.
We would love to have her join us.
She's not.
Okay.
You know, that makes me wonder, Diane, how many people like this lady, who wishes very much to remain anonymous, wants absolutely nothing, just had to get this off her chest, as it were.
She had to get the message through.
How many unknown, unsung psychics are out there like this lady that we would never know about?
You would be amazed at how many there are out there, Art.
We have them in our program.
Of course, we're totally confidential.
No names are released, and we have a member in our program.
They do not want to be known.
They do not want their name released in the public, to the media, anywhere.
Right.
But yet, they want to help with the research so we can understand more.
Why are they getting these messages?
How are they coming across?
What's going on on the other side?
So many questions we have that they can answer.
There is a television program of course on now that I dearly love called Medium about this lady in Phoenix.
Have you seen it?
I'm sure you have.
I have, yes I have.
It's incredibly well done.
Incredibly well done and apparently there is a fair amount of evidence that this lady is for real.
I read her book by the way.
So she's very public but Um, as we just mentioned, I think there are so many out there that have these same abilities and they don't wish to be public.
They don't want the ridicule because of the world, the current world view.
Is that fair?
That's, that is absolutely right.
Yep.
That's it.
They don't want to be criticized.
They don't want skeptics coming to them.
They just want to be left alone, and like this dear lady who contacted you, they want to help people.
That's all they want to do.
Well, the whole thing is absolutely amazing, and it would appear I mean, we only got part way through your evidence.
I want to get all the way through it if we're able to.
Okay.
I know we're giving away the book, but this evidence part to me is really important, Diane.
Okay.
So, what's next on the list in the category of evidence?
In the category of evidence, we walk through the first three.
The fourth condition that we consider evidence for survival Is when the apparition states current information that's unknown by the perceiver and is proven later.
Now, part of the reason that I took this into account is that, you mentioned when we first began the show, I worked for the National Institute for Discovery Science.
That's right.
Fantastic.
Bob Bigelow was the founder director.
I know.
He brought in people, the top researchers in every area of survival.
I'm very, very well aware of that.
I chewed up this whole half hour.
Diane, hold tight.
♪♪♪ One thing more that I want to get in here,
because I think it's important and relevant, and Diane can certainly comment on it.
Diane Archangel is my guest.
She has worked with the best in this field in the world, really.
Including just over the hill here in Las Vegas, the best in the world.
You know, Nids and on and on, Kuba Ross, on and on, just the best.
So you're hearing the real McCoy here.
There is one other occurrence, so I'll just toss it in.
It's very quick.
I always liked a cold house.
Not cool, but at least down to 68 degrees, particularly when I work.
As in being on the air here, if you can call that work.
And Ramona would always complain that it's too damn cold.
She didn't like cold at all.
You've got to remember, she was born in Hawaii, raised in Southern California, so she didn't like the cold.
But I always had to have it cool.
Enjoy the cool.
Always.
Just a way of life with me.
And within a few days of her passing, on two separate occasions, I began to get these horrible Deep chills.
Now, maybe it's just a physical manifestation of grieving.
I have no idea.
But when I say horrible, deep chills, I mean, I went in and pumped the heat in this house up to about 75 or 76 degrees, which for me is almost intolerably warm.
And I was still, get this, I had two instances in which such a deep chill came to me that the only thing that relieved it Was going in and turning on the shower hot water and getting in the shower and just letting it beat on my head and just standing in the shower or sitting in the shower and letting hot water beat on me until these chills would leave.
Now, is it possible that it was just, you know, a part of the grieving process?
Of course it is.
Is it possible that Ramona was close, and I was feeling what many people have felt when there are spirits close to them, and I think, of course, it's possible.
I mean, I'm telling you, Diane, that's so impossible for me, because I'm always wanting it a little bit cooler, it's just never happened to me before, and this occurred twice within the first week of her passing, Diane.
Alright, let me ask you this.
Did you get a sense, or any, I would say even beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she was there, or?
I had a very strong sense she was there.
Yes, I didn't see any apparition, I didn't get any message, but I had an extremely strong feeling that she was there.
Alright, this is what we call an afterlife encounter.
Most people don't really understand what they are.
An afterlife encounter Is any sense of being connected to or in the presence of a discarnate personality.
One sense is touch.
Hug.
One lady said her brother moved the glasses, her eyeglasses, from her nose.
Michael gave a story in the book about his cat.
He felt his cat jump up in the bed.
Cold is so frequent.
Feeling exactly what you described.
Such a chill, it was almost unbearable.
It was inconsolable.
There was simply no way to be rid of it and it's, again, it's not me.
I like it cold, but this was a deep, unrelenting, just incredible cold that I just really can't come up with words to tell you how strong it was.
Did you by any chance notice most people who feel that kind of cold Report to me that they felt it first behind their right shoulder.
Oh yeah.
Sometimes it moves through their body.
Sometimes it will move kind of around their body.
But then it will move out when it leaves to the left in front of them.
Huh.
Did you buy anything?
You know, I don't know that I noticed that.
I was so freaked out, to be honest with you.
As I said, I just turned on the shower and went in there and made it hot.
But I had a very, very strong sense that she was here.
So that brings me back again to when somebody has just passed.
There appears to be a greater likelihood that they will make an attempt at contact that it's very desperate to them to make contact and there's sort of a window when they can and then maybe they can't later or do you not believe that?
I don't believe that and again it goes back to my research and what I found is in doing the first study that I did which was a five-year international study Which over 3,000 people submitted their surveys to me.
What I recognized was a pattern.
Aren't some of these encounters had taken place 40, 50 years ago?
And yet they were still rated on the highest scale for comfort.
And the people said they remembered them as if they happened yesterday.
Okay.
But what I realized is that going back into history and going through the other studies, Most of the old studies said within a 24-hour period, afterlife encounters from that point on decreased, decreased until after the one-year period, very few people had an encounter.
That was not true in my study.
I'm very glad to hear that.
And again, I'll tell you why.
I've always been dead flat honest with my audience, so I'm going to be honest now.
I have a very bad back, Diane.
I think most of my audience knows that.
A very bad back.
And I have pain medicine for my back when I need it.
And in the first days and week or two of Ramona's passing, The grief was so unrelenting and so heavy that I was worried for myself.
So I, to some degree, self-medicated.
And I did that, I think, three times total, when it was just so bad, Diane, that I simply just took a little more of my back medicine, and it put a sort of a fog in my brain.
And I tell you, Diane, I needed that.
I had to take a break from the grieving.
I had to have some kind of break, or I would have broken.
So, to some degree I self-medicated, and I have a feeling that during that time, I made any contact much more difficult.
And I agree with you, Art.
On both counts, first of all, the stress of grief is so intense, not only emotionally, mentally, but physically.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I really am just so glad that you did.
take something to kind of take the edge off. I believe that.
If we can make it beyond that point, great. I did that, but you know, Diane, I knew when I did it.
You know, I've been doing these shows for years, so I knew that a narcotic would
make any contact very difficult and that any altered state makes contact very
difficult. So I knew that, but it was so serious and so strong that if I didn't
have a break from it So I did that and I had to do it and in a way I'm sorry I did it because I know that it would slow down contact but according to what you're saying that may not matter because it can occur at a later date.
Absolutely.
And your body was going into exhaustion, is my guess, from what you've said.
And we've got to do something to take care of our physical body.
Oh yeah, I didn't eat for a week.
Yeah, so that's what you did.
You did what you needed to do to take care of yourself physically.
And yes, the medication does block a reunion or an afterlife contact.
It will break it.
It will put up this boundary between.
It will put up a border.
Right.
But it can happen at a later date.
And Erlander Harrelson, who is with the University of Iceland, when I was doing, I did the second phase of my study, because I found that that wasn't true.
It wasn't within 24 hours of the first year.
He, likewise, had conducted a study that had never been published before and found the same thing.
Almost 50% of the people in his study had been beyond the one-year point.
The same thing with mine.
That's really something.
So, people who see apparitions, I've never seen a ghost.
I've never seen an apparition of my wife.
How common is that?
Let's go back to when we talk about what an afterlife encounter is or an apparition in any sense.
So it can be visual.
It can be, say for instance, ethereal.
Some people say ethereal to them looks like a cloud.
Other people say it's a vapor.
It can be surreal.
When they appear surreal, they're more real than real.
Or they can be realistic.
They can look just like you and me.
And a high percentage are visual.
I have it in my book, to tell you the truth.
I just, right now at, what is it, three o'clock in the morning, I don't remember.
Yeah, you're, by the way, you're back, where are you?
I'm in Houston.
Houston, Texas.
I'm sorry to have you up, uh, most of the night here.
That's all right, we're making it through.
You know, we definitely are.
Um, so, it's in, it is in your book.
It is in the, yeah, the percentages are in my book.
But the, then the other sense, of course, it can be auditory.
We hear a voice, a cough, We may hear them singing.
The other scents, of course, it can be olfactory.
We smell pipe smoke, perfume.
One story in the book, which I just love, is a young lady smelled donuts.
And what was comical was, when she was in high school, her boyfriend worked at a donut shop.
And he would stop by her house on the way home, and she just hated it, because he smelled like donuts.
And she would always say, go home, take a shower, don't come back until you get that Interesting, but anecdotal.
What's the difference between an apparition and a so-called ghost?
There is a difference?
There is a difference.
An apparition is lifelike.
An apparition is person-oriented.
In other words, an apparition is going to attach to or be around a person.
One person can see the same apparition in a number of places.
They're animated, they're energetic, they have vibrant personality.
Some of them communicate.
But, on the other hand, a ghost is always oriented with a certain place, one place.
Different people witness a ghost in that same place.
There's no communication with the witnesses.
Ghosts are not animated.
What our belief in the world of parapsychology right now Is that a ghost is nothing but psychic energy.
Yes.
Left behind at death.
Yes.
Yes, I, you know, we've gone round and round about this and I talked to a group called the GIS.
Have you heard me interview them, Diane?
I haven't.
No, I haven't.
Okay.
These are people who take recording tape or now they're into the digital world and they go to certain places and they They create intent to get messages from the dead, and Diane, they do.
They do.
And I've heard them, I've played them on the air.
This is this voice phenomena, I'm sure you've heard of it.
Yes.
And it's very much ghost-like, and we've had many discussions about, well, is this A current, contemporary kind of thing, where there's actual responses to things being said, or is it sort of like a big tape loop, and sort of the psychic energy that's left over from whoever was there?
I mean, you would be shocked.
For example, they go into a prison and they hear very violent, terrible things from these entities, or whatever they are.
So, I kind of, I'm with you, I think that it's some sort of left over, or it seemed like some sort of left over energy.
Well, and I'll tell you, a really good person to talk to about this, he has some just, oh, great stories, is Lloyd Auerbach.
Have you interviewed Lloyd?
I will see what I can do.
Alright, what he suggests, what he tells you, because he works more, I believe, with ghosts than he does apparitions.
But whenever a person has a ghost and it's disturbing them, of course, the ghost can't do anything because it's just
psychic energy left behind.
But for some people, that's disturbing.
What he suggests is that they go in and they record over that psychic energy.
Now, if a ghost is there, it means that the energy is very high because something horrible happened.
They were killed.
They were murdered.
Yes.
Something terrible.
Yes.
So, according to Lloyd, they go in and they do something that has more energy.
Say, for instance, a group of teenagers will go in and have a huge party with loud noise and a band, but they get the energy so high that the new energy overtakes the old psychic energy, and then that's when it dissipates.
And so it, in essence, replaces it, or pushes it out of the way, or what?
It covers over it, basically.
It would be, for instance, if you come into the room, there are counters now, like Geiger counters, so to speak, that can measure your energy.
When you get up and move, they can say, okay, Art was here.
Now there may be 55 people who can come in and sit in the same chair, but your energy will remain because your energy is higher.
However, let's say a medium comes in, Medium's energy is very high.
It's very, very superior.
Not that you're not, but their energy is extremely high.
More than most people.
They may sit in your chair.
Now when that person gets up, we put the Geiger counter down.
We measure that person's energy.
Yours is no longer there.
It's not that it's not there.
But the new energy has replaced it.
The old energy.
You keep saying Geiger counter.
Do you really mean Geiger?
It's not really a Geiger.
What is it really?
It's a meter.
It's a long name.
I can't think of it right now.
But there are these meters.
Do you know what it's measuring?
It's measuring the frequency.
Energy frequency.
Well, okay.
I understand, Diane, that you're not familiar with the technical details.
I'm a technical kind of guy and I would really love to know what it's measuring.
Who would know that?
Well, I'll tell you what.
Bill Rowe and I are going to be at Esalen in August and we are going to have them with us to demonstrate.
So I can either have Bill give you a call or And actually, there is an experiment written up in my book, Afterlife Encounters.
We took place in Nevada with George Anderson, and there's information in there as well as to some of the machines that we use for tapping into and measuring energy, heat, so forth.
Okay, I've got to ask you about this.
I did a fair amount of investigation into George Meeks.
Do you know that name?
Yes, I sure do.
Uh-huh.
I found, my God, was that interesting stuff.
I listened to some tapes of George Meeks.
What a remarkable, remarkable set of experiments they had done.
Do you attach any credibility to the whole Meeks business?
Well, there again, I wrote in my book... Oh, we're at a break here.
Okay.
hold on just a moment diane archangel is here and her book is afterlife
encounters ordinary people extraordinary experiences life after loss
And it's a pretty good-sized book.
I would heartily recommend to any of you who really are curious about this, since it deals
in hard evidence.
And I know that these are the major questions most of us...
Certainly it would classify as in the top three things that anybody would want to know should they have an audience with God and be able to ask a question.
Though I suppose the audience itself would answer the question, wouldn't it?
Alright, Diane, welcome back.
Thank you, Art.
I just said something.
I said an audience with God, it seems to me, would answer that question.
You said you had that.
Yes, I did.
It seems like it would answer the question, unless in your mind, Diane, you're concerned that perhaps what you experienced was just randomly firing neurons in a panicked, stress, adrenaline-filled situation, otherwise called dying.
Honestly, There have been so many studies that dispute that theory.
I know.
That, can I answer for absolute sure scientifically?
I don't know.
I know that I experienced a number of prophecies that came to pass.
Oh?
Such as, um, of the war in the Persian Gulf.
Now, take into account my near-death experience was More than 20 years ago.
Right.
So this was the first war in the Persian Gulf, the Rodney King beating.
God kept telling me, take a closer look, take a closer look.
He tried to get me to come back.
I didn't want to.
He said, your mother will die in 13 months.
And I was arguing with him.
Me, arguing with God.
My dad was a Baptist minister.
I'm arguing with God.
Wow.
But he kept telling me, take a closer look, and just showing me all these horrible future events.
I saw a plane fly into a tower.
I had no idea what that was.
Good Lord!
I heard screaming all over the world, oh no, not in America.
And I thought, you know, it's just a plane that flew into the tower.
And yeah, a few people were killed, but for that kind of reaction all over the world, I couldn't imagine.
Until the day, of course, September the 11th.
And then that's when the realization of what I saw really came in really full force for me.
Bob Bigelow's friend of mine, how did he get interested in you?
Let me see.
I was doing some research and he spoke with me about it, invited me to fly into Las Vegas, do some research for him, which I did with George Anderson.
We brought George in and did some research that's never been published that is just, I can't explain it.
You can't?
No.
Why don't we take a shot at it?
Alright.
We brought in some, we meaning Dean Radin was there at the time.
I know Dean very well.
Alright, Dean was there.
Janine Redman and I and Dean brought in some very, very expensive equipment from Stanford.
In fact, my understanding is it was $250,000 to rent just for the weekend.
I believe that could be true, yes.
Just for the two cameras.
So, of course, with the cameras, Stanford, who was the rental company, sent in what I would call a bouncer.
He was a protector.
Someone to protect their precious equipment.
We brought in six people before George Anderson to test the circumstances.
We had a room.
We put the two cameras.
We had all sorts of measuring equipment, and this, by the way, is in the book.
It measured the heat in the room, any kind of temperature change.
Right.
We had each person completely wired for any kind of emotional change, skin temperature, and so forth.
Right.
Now, the six people before George, one at a time, went in, sat down.
We said, just sit here and see what happens.
They had experiences.
But the people themselves on camera were brightly colored.
There were greens, blues, yellows, reds, whites, every color of the rainbow.
Fine.
George came in, sat down at the last day.
George at first, just like all the other sitters, Completely different colors.
Red, blues, yeltsin.
Vibrant colors.
See, my mind is screaming to know what spectrum was being looked at and the technical details of this, and you're not going to have them, are you?
It's okay.
It's okay.
Well, what we could find from it, is actually what I'm going to tell you, is that there was George sitting.
He was all these bright colors, just like everyone else, but within a few minutes, George's color faded until he was totally white.
Oh.
The only thing we could see, two tiny spots for his eyes and two tiny spots for his nostrils.
And of this you made what?
Well, we... Something unusual that we can't under... I mean, this is what we don't know why.
We can't explain it, but here's the thing.
The technician said, something is wrong with the camera.
This can't be.
This could not happen.
This has never happened in as long as we've had these cameras.
He went stomping down the store.
I mean, stomping down the stairs, just as I said, like a bouncer.
Let me fix it.
I'll take care of this.
Yes.
He entered the room, knelt down beside George, reached out to fix the camera.
Now, let me guess.
There were all the colors on him.
Yes, you got it.
Wow.
He was totally colorful.
George remained white, but then George began to discern this man's, I believe this is his brother and his uncle.
The man flew out of that booth.
Wow.
And he was white as a ghost.
But every person who entered that booth remained the same bright colors except for George.
Okay, I take it Dean Radin could probably explain the technical aspects of this, huh?
And actually he wrote a paper that was published and Of course, I have it cited in my book.
Okay.
Yes, this is very important stuff.
I'm going to get a hold of Dean Radin on this issue as well.
That would be great.
Yeah, that would be great.
I'd really like to know what they were looking at, the spectrum, what they were seeing, and then what they did not see.
What was Mr. Anderson's intent?
Our intent with the entire research program, especially that study, was just to see, in this environment, could we record any anomalies?
Could we record any kind of spirit?
Could we capture, on film, an apparition?
Could we catch any type of heat?
As you were saying earlier with Ramona, a cold, could we capture that?
And indeed there were anomalies.
But, you know, I've got thermometers.
Everywhere.
Inside, outside temperatures, humidity, I monitor it all.
It's just one of those things I do.
And I can guarantee you that there was no real cold associated, for example, with what I felt.
In fact, I got the temperature in the house way high by my standards.
And so there was no actual dip in the temperature in the room.
But you're saying that occurs?
That does occur.
Alright, Meeks.
Meeks did some incredible things.
I actually, even though the quality was bad, I played, I don't know, about 45 minutes of the Meeks, one of the Meeks tapes, here on the air, and it was astounding.
Have you heard it?
I have heard them.
And you asked for my opinion earlier, so I'm guessing that's what you're doing.
So, it sounds like you're dancing a little, so your opinion is going to be not too good of me, I take it.
Actually, until I go out and physically, with my own eyes, my own ears, my own fingers, have a one-on-one with a researcher, I don't judge.
In my book, in the chapter titled, Considering the Controversial, I wrote about As you know, there's a long list of how we refer to them.
EVP, Electronic Voice Phenomena, Spoke Voice, the whole thing.
I went out and I did research with who the people at the time were the reported top researchers in the field.
I couldn't find anything.
what they were doing is they were recording off of a C-band radio
playing it backward and then
interpreting what they heard as a spirit talking do you remember back in the Beatles I believe that the
album was called the White Album of course
and people were playing it back some said Paul was dead some thought they
swore it said George is dead it's basically the same thing
It's playing that backwards.
Back masking, yeah.
But, you know, again, I am in touch with this group that gets contemporary forward things on recordings.
It is a very interesting field that I haven't been able to really knock holes in yet.
In other words, the equipment's good.
There's just no chance it could really be anything else.
If you've heard some of these, it would Anyway, you should listen when I have the GIS on.
I think you'll be quite surprised.
I would love to.
I'll make a point to do that.
One very worrisome thing that they cannot account for, and I certainly cannot, is that perhaps even a majority of the voices that they capture are voices of children.
Very concerning.
Hmm.
Yeah.
And you don't believe that these voices could be captured from an ordinary means?
I've looked at it awfully hard.
It doesn't seem like it, no.
I think it's worth serious investigation.
I mean, if you go back since the recording, since the invention of the ability to record things, this has been investigated.
You know, a lot of the original inventors thought it might be a method for communication with those who have passed.
So, this goes back as long as recording devices go back.
Well, I did include the book after my little research with the people who were either professionally taping in the field, as opposed to people who were just, say, a grandmother who was at home and wanted to tape.
And the people who were home, like the grandmothers and so forth, who were not trying to do this professionally, did capture voices.
And they were not on this reel-to-reel where they play it backwards.
I know.
They just set their little recording device, their little recorder, and captured it.
And the difference is, they also captured children.
But they were happy.
They were giggling.
They were saying, I love you.
There wasn't anything frightening or negative or That's exactly what might have been, I can clearly see, in that area.
The people that I deal with, these GIS people, who are not profiteers, they don't write books, they don't take money for what they do, they're just fascinated with this group and they do it.
And the fact that they don't, you know, write books, no offense, or whatever, you know, gives them, in my mind anyway, some credibility.
They just do this and spend their own money on it.
That's that.
They've never, in all the years I've interviewed them, asked for a thing.
So, you know, it's quite interesting.
They tend to go to graveyards and prisons and mental hospitals and so they get Associated material, material that you would expect to get in those places if in fact these tape loops that we're talking about earlier really are true.
And perhaps maybe that's why they, and perhaps they are getting real spirit voices and maybe that's why.
Because they're not going at it professionally, they're not out writing books as you say or taking money or charging for it or anything like that.
No.
Maybe that's like the little grandmothers.
So anyway, Lex Denton Friedman, you put George Meeks in your gray box.
There it is, but I don't know.
That's it.
Yep.
I just don't know.
I never studied with him.
I never went out one-to-one, face-to-face, and watched how he taped and what he did.
What drove you to go as far as you've gone in this field?
Oh my goodness.
Are you talking about from the very, very get-go for 50-something years ago?
Well, yeah, I guess I am.
Because what's driven me now is that there were so many comments in the media about afterlife encounters and how valuable they were, how comforting they were.
So much so, my first My first focus is always with the bereaved.
I'm so concerned that someone's going to take advantage of them.
I've had it happen to me.
So I was concerned that they were exaggerating the value.
So I turned to my bereavement, my parapsychology colleagues.
We looked through every journal, every piece of literature that we could find, trying to find any kind of study that said, okay, do they bring comfort?
And if so, how much and for how long?
Do they have an effect on the grief?
No study had ever been done that specifically focused on comfort and grief.
And the result?
So that's why I developed this five-year international afterlife encounter survey.
The results were astounding.
Ninety-eight percent of the people who took this survey scored their afterlife encounters on a scale from eight to ten.
Eight percent.
That's amazing.
And some, as I spoke earlier this evening.
That is amazing.
Some had been 50 to 60 years since their account occurred, and they still rated them on the highest scale possible.
That was a group of how many?
Actually, 3,000 took the survey, but I could only use, I believe it was some 900 and something people because This is something that I found.
If anyone out there is listening and is going to do a survey, it was on the internet.
It was quite a lengthy survey of 24 questions, some in two and three parts.
What some of the respondents did is they began scoring, but then they were so excited that they skipped down and would write their questions or they would write about their encounters.
So those, anything that was not totally filled out, I couldn't use.
Got it.
You really do fascinate me because you really have held to some pretty strict standards of investigation and statement.
Particularly the investigation part.
You've really taken a very straight course on this and that makes your book very interesting of course.
Thank you.
Are you going to keep Investigating?
This sounds to me like it's a lifetime mission at this point.
It is.
It began when I was six years old, on my very first day of school, and now I'm with the University of Virginia.
We do mediumship research, and I'm in here for the long haul.
I'd be interested, privately, to hear about your meeting with Mr. Bigelow.
He reminds me, did you ever see the movie Contact?
It was with Jodie Foster.
It was a remarkable movie.
At one point, this billionaire appears on a monitor and asks Jodie Foster, do you want to take a ride?
Is this sounding familiar?
Oh, I have to see this movie.
Oh yes, you will.
And when you see it, just go and rent it or something.
Think of Mr. Bigelow as the guy who says, want to take a ride.
I think you'll get quite a kick out of it.
At any rate, what I'd like to do shortly is, and I haven't done enough of it, is to let the audience ask you questions.
Obviously, people have zillions of questions about this.
I'm sure you would say, read my book.
but I want to give a few of them coming up in the half hour an opportunity to
actually ask you questions here upon the air
alright once again Diane Archangel Welcome back, Diane.
Thank you, Art.
And here come some questions.
And by the way, your book, let me plug that, your book, where can we get your book?
Amazon.com, The Usual, what?
The Usual, it's in most bookstores, such as Barnes & Noble, Borders, it's also available through the publisher, Hampton Roads.
All right.
Some authors occasionally say, well, if you want to order it directly from me, I'll autograph it.
You want to get into that trouble?
Unfortunately, I don't have any here to autograph.
Okay.
All right.
Here comes some questions.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Diane Archangel.
Hi.
No, no, no.
Listen, I'm sorry.
I can't include your last name.
I had to zap that out.
That's fine.
I'm sorry.
Your first name is?
Pat.
And you worked with who?
Raymond Moody with Diane.
Oh, you worked with Raymond Moody and Diane.
That's right.
Oh, you travel in big circles, Diane.
Okay, go ahead, caller.
I had an after-life experience that has been verified by the police and detective bureau that I thought you might be very interested in for another upcoming book.
Oh, of course.
I worked in this area with you in the past.
It was in the realm of dreams, but it wasn't a dream.
Alright, that's exactly the kind of thing I guess she wants.
Things that are verifiable.
And on that score then, Diane, if somebody has something that is absolutely verifiable, how would they get hold of you?
Do you have email?
Do you want to do that?
Probably the best thing is through my website.
It is afterlifeencounters.com If they have any trouble with that, they can reach me through afterlife-encounters.com.
Okay, so on these websites, there's email contact for you?
There is.
There's email contact.
That's good enough then.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Diane Archangel.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
Hi, Diane.
This is Sandra in Ohio.
And I called last week, Art, too, by the way.
I've been a listener for nearly five years.
I love you and love your show.
I've been a professional astrologer and medium for over 20 years, and I write in biomolecular medicine.
A couple of things.
Diane, could you give a little more information on the acclimating period when someone crosses over, that concept?
And also, I've noticed in my own mediumship practice that runs in the family, that some people in spirit, when I get in touch with them, seem to have an obsessive focus on a particular Relative or person when they're relaying messages through me.
Usually the person is a child that there's an obsessive focus on.
And one of the things that I've come to the conclusion of about that is usually that happens when they're preparing to come back.
When that spirit is preparing to come back through that individual through the bloodline or the family line.
And they almost end up with that person as a kind of an assignment.
So they're preparing their ancestors, so to speak.
Alright, that's a lot you've laid on her.
Take the last one first and we'll go backwards because those are good.
Go ahead.
As far as obsessive focus, they only come in here to help.
It's for their growth as well as our growth.
So if there seems to be, as you say, an obsessive focus, that's the person who needs them most at that time.
Does mediumship, the ability to see these things and understand them, run in families?
Is it apparently genetic?
In some cases are, it does seem to be genetic.
But then, say for instance, George Anderson is an example, didn't have anyone else in his family.
So it really just depends on the individual.
Sometimes, early on in life, of course mediums are born with the ability, but something will happen, say for instance, in George's case, We had a very serious illness.
I believe what happened with George is that he had a near-death experience.
He went out, came back, so now it's easy for him to tap into that other world.
Alright, a couple of extra words about the acclimating period.
Acclimating?
Y'all, I guess you don't really...
But then again, wouldn't there be some acclimating period?
In other words, if you pass, particularly if you pass suddenly, if your consciousness pops up somewhere else, there probably is going to be some sort of period where you're going, what the hell just happened?
That's true.
However, at the exact time that consciousness leaves the body, It goes to that light, that brilliant, that wonderful, that warm light.
So when you say acclimate, that takes a time, a period, and it's different with each individual, but for our consciousness to rise into that light and to unite, then when they get there, it is good to be disorienting.
It can be a time of looking around.
There's no set time for anyone that I know of.
It just depends on each individual.
Our consciousnesses After death are just as varied as they are while we're alive.
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Diane Archangel.
Good morning.
Hello?
Yes, hello.
This is Bill from Jacksonville, Florida.
Yes.
Most sincere compassion, Art.
Thank you.
Do you have a question?
Yes.
Diane?
Uh-huh.
Hi Bill.
Hi, I'm originally from North Carolina, so we don't need an interpreter.
I attended Duke University when J.B.
Ryan and Louisa Ryan were there.
He coined the term ESP.
Yeah.
Remember?
I sure do.
Okay, now you talk about near-death experience.
I get to the point, I had a near-life experience.
It's when you have the end of life, Like Dr. Marty Spock's book, Cosmic Consciousness?
Yes.
And there's a new book, the new book's now by Dr. David Hawkins.
Right.
The new one is Truth vs. Falsehood.
You can use kinesiology testing to test anything.
So you don't have to pay all those pieces of green paper for testing machines.
And on one show, Art, Someone said that guy in Honolulu, is your wife, was from Hawaii?
Uh, my wife was born at Ever Beach, Hawaii, yes.
Okay.
Reverend Fred Sterling is that guy from Honolulu Church of Light.
1-800... Okay, no, no, no, no, no.
Uh-uh.
I'm sorry.
That's where I have to chop you off.
No numbers on the air.
I certainly appreciate it, and again, Diane, you've certainly mixed in the right circles of research, and the temptation to jump ahead in beliefs and what you write must be gigantic.
So to hold it back to what you can actually prove must be hard, isn't it?
It was very difficult.
It's just a matter of saying, What have, as I was telling you earlier, have I seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears, felt with my own fingertips.
This is what I'm going to present.
I don't want to present anything that I have not myself observed.
Well, that's good.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Diane Archangel.
Hello.
Hi Art.
Hi Diane.
Hi.
This is Cindy from Las Vegas.
I have a question for you.
I've been your widow for 13 years, and I've had dreams off and on over the 13 years regarding my late husband.
I just moved to Las Vegas the middle of August, so I haven't been here all that long, and I recently, within the last month and a half, bought a new house.
Before that I was living in an apartment, and since I bought my house and moved into it and furnished it, I've had some very disturbing dreams regarding my husband, and I was wondering if you could give me any insight as to why they have turned to be so disturbing, whereas before they were just dreams about him.
Well, that is an interesting question, isn't it?
In other words, if the original dreams were all comforting in some way, I don't know that I've ever heard of such a thing, where they suddenly become, you know, scary, disturbing, whatever.
That's interesting.
What do you think, Diane?
I would ask, disturbing in what way?
What's disturbing about them to you?
I don't think she wanted to answer that.
She's gone, but I really don't think she wanted to get into details about that.
Okay.
Yeah, I would have to know more information in order to help her.
Okay.
The International Line, you're on the air with Diane Archangel.
Hi.
Hi, this is Dave.
Hi, Art.
Good morning, Diane.
Hello, Dave.
Hello.
I'm calling from Canada, and I'm impressed with your scientific rigor.
I really am, as opposed to some of the people who have such dogma about what they say.
The only thing is, it seems that you're crossing the line.
You're walking a very thin line, occasionally jumping over, as Arches put it, the temptation to fall over to the other side.
It's very, very powerful, and I'm sensing that in you, and the problem with that is this, that once you have stepped over the line into full belief, and you have to be very cautious, I think, about that, for this reason.
There's a reason why we die, and when we do, we're dead, essentially, and if you're able to step over that line, I don't think God, or whatever power there be, would allow us to step over the line.
There's a reason why there's death and no more discussion of any kind.
There's a reason for death in whatever God we believe in.
Well, maybe, maybe, sir, and maybe not.
I mean, if you're listening to the results of the research, maybe that line is not so absolute.
In other words, you could hear in his voice, Diane, that he had dogma that there is that separation and any Evidence of that line being crossed just can't be true.
And some people believe that we should not cross that line.
Not only could it not be true, but we just, as I was saying earlier in the evening... The world view, right?
The world don't collide.
They have theirs, we have ours, and we don't cross that line.
But you are crossing it, sort of.
Yes, I am.
I've opened the door.
I've been propelled through that door.
And you clearly feel that, well, there is a building, a mass of research in this area now.
Is it going to continue to accelerate, do you believe?
I believe it will accelerate greatly, Art.
Simply because, like my study, we have never focused on, alright, so what does this mean?
We have these encounters.
What difference does it make?
Now we're finding out through my study, it makes a tremendous difference.
Yeah.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Diane Archangel.
Hello.
Hello.
Yes, hello.
Again, we'd rather not... It's not a last name.
It's two names, first and middle.
I go by my two names.
Got it?
Yeah, got it.
Okay.
I have some...
Extremely intense information that is going to set all of what you're saying to another level.
It's phenomenal stuff.
We don't have a lot of time, so you're going to have to lay it on us.
My sister gets visiting from people that die on a regular basis.
There is, I mean, absolutely, positively the truth.
And the weird thing is, is so does my daughter.
And my daughter is 30.
My sister is 48 or whatever.
I mean, I could go into like about 100 stories.
No, you couldn't.
But I mean, I could, but I don't have time.
but I mean I don't I don't know what I don't know where to begin exactly and
what you know if you know I can know that's right I don't have to I can
clearly hear the intense excitement in your voice So Diane, there's somebody who is a true believer and very, very excited.
I take it that you probably back away a little bit from that or have to in what you do?
Actually, what I do want is just ask them to contact me through my website.
I get a lot of people who email me who have information like this and they don't know what to do with it.
They don't know where to take it.
They don't know how to help people with it.
I can understand why she's so excited.
Yes.
Do you take these people under your wing and help them in any way?
Well, I receive somewhere between two and three hundred emails every day.
There's only so much I can do, but I try to do what I can.
Either if I can't guide them, I try to put them in the hands or direct them towards someone who can.
Well, you're about to get more email than that, so get ready.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Diane Archangel.
Hello.
Hi, how's it going?
All right, sir.
This is Jared.
I'm calling from Decatur, Illinois.
Yes.
And I just had a question for Diane.
I would like to know your opinion, actually, on whether or not entheogens can open up a person's psyche up to the spiritual world.
And by entheogens, I mean, like, say, fungi, such as psilocybe cubescens.
Are those hallucinogens?
Yes.
Okay, that's all right.
Yeah, totally a valid question, Diane.
There are many people who feel that hallucinogens open doors.
Do you reject that premise?
I think any form of medication, any substance, whether it's alcohol or medication, will actually block it.
What you may be getting are other people who use any type of hallucinogenic medication They're getting something, but they are hallucinations.
They're not real.
Well, that's an awfully sweeping statement.
I'm not sure about this.
We don't understand that much about the brain, really, right Diana?
True, absolutely.
And we really can't state with absolute certainty that some hallucinogens May not open doors.
I mean, you hate to say it because you don't want to encourage that kind of use, but can you really scientifically rule that out, Diane?
All I know is in our research, where we have researched with trying to induce or actually inducing afterlife encounters, if the person was on any kind of medication or alcohol, it blocked it.
They didn't have anything.
So that's the basis of my statement for that.
Now, I'm not saying all or it can never be done.
But in general, in the research that we've done, those people did not have an afterlife encounter if they were on any kind of medication.
Well, there certainly have been advocates of hallucinogens actually producing that kind of experience.
And frankly, Diane, as you well know, there is laboratory work going on.
That stimulates certain parts of the brain and the claims have been that they could stimulate NDEs.
Now, what do you know about that?
My question with that is that, alright, it's stimulated.
That's the brain.
So what is the difference between one that is induced and one that is an NDE that is spontaneous?
That's my question.
Right.
Study the two differences and you will see that somewhere along the way there is some slight difference.
For instance, in a spontaneous near-death experience, the person beyond a doubt knows that she or he is dying.
That is not true with induced.
There's a difference.
Yeah?
There would seem to be.
All right.
Give me, you know, we're running out of time.
Give me your website again, please.
Encounters.com or else just plain AfterlifeEncounters.com with no dash.
Good enough.
Expect a great deal of mail.
I am, Art.
All right, Diane.
We will have you back.
We will do this again.
What a great guest you've been.
Thank you.
It's been wonderful.
I've really enjoyed it.
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