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Oct. 17, 2004 - Art Bell

02:53:11

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Michael Shermer - The Skeptic's View

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01:06:15

michael shermer

01:03:26

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I've been to you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's living time zone, all of them covered by this program post-poke datum.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		An honor and a privilege to be with you about halfway through the weekend that I get to spend with you.
		And I think we've got a full show ahead.
		First, there is some sad news.
		It seems that Betty Hill has passed away.
		I'm getting a number of reports.
		That's not absolutely confirmed yet, but popping up on web pages and such that Betty Hill has passed away.
		An update on Anne Strieber.
		I spoke with Whitley several hours ago, and for those of you that don't know, during the first hour of last night's program, I was supposed to have Whitley on, I got a panic call saying, oh my God, Archie's collapsed, and he hung up.
		And the next thing I knew, his brother had called and said, well, it looks like Anne may have had some sort of diabetic episode.
		Then I heard from Whitley that, no, very much more serious, a stroke.
		And today he says, indeed, an aneurysm, which is really something, I guess she still has full movement, amazingly.
		She can move everything, and she can talk, although she can't talk because of all the tubes that they give you when you have something like that.
		But generally alert, I guess, in stable condition, but a very serious situation, an aneurysm.
		And there's some kind of procedure where they pass something through your veins to get to the aneurysm in your brain, if you can believe that.
		And that's what she may undergo as opposed to brain surgery.
		So it's a very serious situation.
		And your prayers for Anne Strieber will very much be appreciated, of course.
		If we get an update during the program tonight, we'll be sure and get it to you.
		So the passing of Betty Hill.
		And there's your status report so far this evening on Anne Striber.
		There has been some help, by the way.
		Thanks to people who are listening to this program.
		And I'll let Whitley, if he does, call and update us.
		He's been there 20 hours, and by now, 24 hours without sleep.
		And so, because it occurred just prior to showtime last night.
		So he's at the hospital where he's sure he'll be for at least a week.
		And so she has quite a procedure to undergo.
		Anyway, that's the update.
		And Betty Hill, very sad.
		Now, if true, now, an awful lot of the believers, the witnesses, the researchers have passed on.
		But the skeptics live on.
		The skeptics definitely live on.
		Tonight we'll have one of them here, Dr. Michael Shermer, is a skeptic of almost everything we talk about.
		So actually, it should be a very interesting show.
		Really should be.
		And by the way, this interesting show can be heard free of charge on the web tonight.
		It is our Streamlink weekend, and it just kind of kicks off a demo of what we can do here on the web.
		It is way cool.
		I mean, you can listen tonight for free until 6, I think, in the morning.
		And you can also, if you're a member, which is very cheap, you can make MPEG-3Es of the programs, you know, like 30 days or so.
		It's way cool.
		Anyway, if you want to see what it's all about, go onto your computer and listen free of charge.
		And we're happy to offer that as a way to introduce you to its many charms.
unidentified		We will be back in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A very quick look into the world.
		The most feared militant group in Iraq, that would be the Movement of Terror master-minded by Al-Zakari, declared its allegiance to Osama bin Laden, so they're getting together.
		This occurred Sunday, saying why it agreed with al-Qaeda over a strategy, the need for unity against the enemies of Islam.
		It's in quotes.
		That would be us, of course.
		The declaration, which appeared on a website often used as a clearinghouse for statements by militant groups in general, began with a Quran verse encouraging Muslim unity and said that El-Zakari considered bin Laden, quote, the best leader for Islam's armies against all infidels.
		Massachusetts Senator Kerry accused President Bush on Sunday of planning a surprise second-term attempt to privatize Social Security and forecast a disaster for America's middle class.
		End of the road for the middle class.
		The U.S. Army Reserve Soldiers, this was an interesting story tonight, who refused orders to drive a dangerous route, were members of one of a few supply units whose trucks are still unarmored, said their commanding general.
		The soldiers now under investigation previously focused on local missions in safer parts of Iraq and had never driven a convoy north along the attack-prone roads passing through Baghdad.
		And so when it came time for them to do that, they considered and said, Too dangerous.
		Police on Sunday were still trying to determine who was driving a stolen truck loaded with illegal immigrants that smashed into other vehicles, rolled over, killed six, injured 15, some critically.
		Immigration and customs enforcement officials questioned a man they said was a driver, but he turned out instead to be a passenger.
		So we'll have to wait and find out about that.
		I want to say again tonight, the Federal Communications Commission has passed regulations governing and essentially saying, okay, to broadband over power lines.
		That means that now across America, they will begin to put the Internet on power lines.
		This is an interesting technology that is feared by many who think it's going to be the end of shortwave broadcasting.
		And indeed, in areas where BPL passes by, and I might add, through your home, you're not going to be able to hear shortwave broadcasts.
		You're not going to be able to hear Radio Moscow or the BBC or Radio France International or any of the other zillion shortwave broadcasters out there anymore, because BPL will be virtually broadcasting from your power lines and covering all of those frequencies that you can now hear those shortwaves.
		So good listening, folks.
		It won't last long if BPL is what it is feared to be.
		The headline, actually, I read this to you last night, but I want to just go over it one more time.
		Air Force pursuing anti-matter weapons program was touted publicly.
		Then came the official gag order.
		The U.S. Air Force, apparently, is working on an anti-matter weapon.
		And then there was a lot of reports of it.
		And then they had a gag order and they can't talk about it anymore.
		An anti-matter weapon!
		Boy, I'll tell you, science fiction is beginning to sound more like science now, isn't it?
		An anti-matter weapon.
		Yikes.
		Seven young Japanese were found gassed to death in a car yesterday in what appeared to be the latest in a group suicide involving strangers who met over the internet.
		The four men and three women are believed to have been teenagers.
		God, that's sad.
		Or in their 20s, perhaps.
		The rented vehicle was found in a secluded car park in Minano, north of Tokyo.
		Portable charcoal stoves were used to fill the car with carbon monoxide, the windows sealed with tape, and the vehicle covered with a plastic sheet.
		Now, police began to search Minano on Monday after a friend of one of the dead received a text message saying, simply, I'm in Manano.
		There are seven of us, pardon me, in the car, and we committed suicide with stoves.
		And the number of dead, of course, shocked Japan.
		The group suicide fits, though, a pattern.
		This goes over the last 18 months or so, and 50 have died in similar suicides in Japan.
		All of a sudden, the young people in Japan are beginning to kill themselves.
		That's so weird, isn't it?
		Newspapers have reported dozens of cases in which depressed young people have used the internet to find someone else with whom to die and then do it.
		Last month, Ford found dead in almost identical circumstances.
		So they're making pacts, getting together, and committing group suicide.
		Now, they're facing an epidemic of suicides, actually, in Japan, last 12 years, really.
		There was a long recession, a national loss of self-confidence since the bursting of the bubble economy they had there.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		well I I wonder how our our bubble is doing the FDA on Wednesday approved This is right down many alleys.
		Approved an implantable computer chip that can pass a patient's medical details to doctors speeding care.
		VeraChip's radio frequency microchips, the size of a grain of rice, have already been used to identify wayward pets and livestock, and nearly 200 people working in Mexico's Attorney General's office have been implanted with the chips to access secure areas containing sensitive documents.
		It is the first time the FDA has approved the use of the device, though in Mexico more than 1,000 people now, scannable chips, have actually been implanted in people.
		The chip serial number pulls up the patient's blood type and other medical information.
		All you've got to do is pinch a syringe and the microchip is put in onto the skin in a procedure that takes less than 20 minutes, leaves no stitches, but radiates like a bandit.
		So I wonder how you feel about that.
		And when they cometh to you, to delivereth your chip beneath the epidermis, how are you going to react?
		Are you going to say, why, yes, have my arm.
unidentified		Let's have that baby.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or will you say, no, it is the very devil itself, 666 has arrived, and it shall not be implanted in me.
		You'd hear a lot of different answers to that one.
		Hey, you know, we'll ask tonight's guest, Dr. Shermer.
		He would have to say yes, right?
		Being a skeptic of anything of that, well, we'll ask.
		This is kind of interesting.
		It relates to the show that I did with Tess Gerritson.
		You remember she talked about the Rebellion that occurred on the shuttle.
		The mutiny, as it were, on Skylab 4.
		Well, I've got somebody who was on the inside.
		Dave writes, I've met Gary Carr, the commander of that mission, several times and spoken with him at length on several topics.
		Mr. Carr informed me that his crew was ahead of schedule in every regard and had been for several days.
		They gathered enough solar astronomy data to keep the scientific community busy for the next decade.
		After repeated requests on the day of the mutiny to take a little personal and Earth observation time, astronaut lingo for looking out the window, and having those requests refused, dismissed and ignored by Mission Control in Houston, Commander Carr, with the morale of his crew in mind, informed Houston, well, they wouldn't be accepting any further assignments on this day, and they turned the receiver off.
unidentified		Quick!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was the day of the mutiny, December 25th, 1973, Christmas Day.
		Harry Carr would probably never admit this, but at the time, writes Dave, he was one of NASA's top astronauts, motivated, energetic, as smart as they come, being groomed for Mars in the early 80s if funding had been there.
		Then shuttle flights.
		He would have commanded a lunar landing had he been about five years older and had joined the astronaut corps about five years earlier.
		His action to boost the mental and emotional health of Bill Pogue, Ed Gibson, and himself absolutely and without question killed his flight career.
		And rightfully so, some would argue.
		Perhaps the crew of Skylab 4 would have been in better spirits had the NASA PAO and administrators not bowed to a temperance league and allowed the boys to bring a little white wine, for example, to celebrate their freeze-dried, dehydrated, irradiated, and thermostabilized Christmas dinner.
		How did the Russians and the Miracrez tolerate the hardships of long-duration spaceflight?
unidentified		Vodka and lots and lots of vodka.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hope you enjoyed reading these little factoids half as much as I did hearing your voice on the air, Dave.
		And I won't give Dave's last name, but Dave, thank you.
		So there's the real story of what happened.
		And then there's this little nugget.
		Only in China would you have this reaction.
		The headline is, Satellite smashes Chinese house.
		A Chinese satellite has smashed into a villager's house on its return to Earth, according to the country's media reports.
		The satellite destroyed the building in Sichuan Province, but officials say no one was hurt.
		A local newspaper printed a picture of a kettle-shaped capsule, which appeared to be about two meters long, lying amid broken bricks, beams, and roof tiles.
		The satellite was part of a space probe to carry out land surveys and other research, according to the news agency there.
		Quote, the satellite landed in our home.
		Maybe this means we'll have good luck this year, said the tenant of the wrecked apartment.
		And that was a direct quote.
		Well, the satellite landed in our home.
		Maybe this means we'll have good luck this year.
		Only in China would you get a reaction like that.
		Completely destroyed the apartment.
		But otherwise, it's going to be a good year.
		Want to do some open lines?
		Why not?
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, Mr. Bell?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		I got it off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
unidentified		Okay, what I was wondering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who and where are you?
unidentified		Oh, this is Jerry, and I'm in Tempe, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All righty.
unidentified		What's up, Jerry?
unidentified		I think it was several years ago, Mel was supposed to give a dime to Richard Hoagland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that.
unidentified		Yeah, I never heard anything else about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, me either.
		I don't know how that turned out.
		I don't know how that turned out.
		But interesting.
		I'll see if I can find out.
unidentified		Okay, that's all I have to say.
unidentified		You had a nice night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you too.
		One of those through-time things, right?
		Yeah, I remember that.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, yeah, I was wondering about who is this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who were you expecting when you called?
unidentified		Oh, it was the one that talked to Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be me.
unidentified		Oh.
unidentified		Yeah, I was wondering what you thought about the oil for food scandal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oil for food scandal.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which scandal is that?
		Oil for food.
		What scandal?
		What do you think about that?
unidentified		Yeah, like Kofi and Non-Sun and all the people that, you know, had to do with that, like France and Russia and China.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure what you're talking about.
unidentified		Well, I guess, you know, they're saying on the news that they had some kind of sanction thing going on with them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		You haven't heard anything about it, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		No, not a word.
		Doesn't mean it's not going on.
		I just may not have heard about it.
		anyway uh...
unidentified		what do you think about this scandal since you called or as a fellow that it in the port with the war and then all of a sudden all of a sudden turns out that they have feelings with the phone If you're talking about China and France, of course they had dealings with Saddam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		France had tons of dealings with Saddam.
		There were all kinds of contracts and things going on.
		Sure.
		I am well aware of that, if that's the scandal.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Wildcard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Tell me it isn't so.
		Tell me this BPL thing isn't going to really happen.
		No, it is.
		You mentioned it last night on the Streamlink.
		I caught that.
		I've just been sick all day about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is sickening.
		BPL will start perhaps just above the broadcast band, if not in it, and go to about 80 megahertz, I guess.
		And that's going to wipe out goodbye citizens band, goodbye, shortwave broadcasting, goodbye, amateur radio to some degree, goodbye public safety stuff to some degree.
		I mean, it's incredible what they are getting ready to do.
		It's just unbelievable.
unidentified		Isn't the FCC supposed to stop that type of interference?
		I mean, aren't they supposed to weigh the plus and minuses of this?
		or is michael powell just on the take needs just as corrupted anybody else on hill high uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		look i don't know what to tell you i I can't imagine a nation that would intentionally destroy shortwave listenership across an entire continent, a whole country like this.
		It's just to me, it's unbelievable what they're doing.
		I don't have an answer for you.
		You know, all we can do is pray that it's not going to be as bad as it seems like it will be in those areas affected.
		That's it.
		Pray.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's passed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a done deal.
unidentified		I'd like to see Powell out somebody else in and fix this.
		They fixed it in Japan.
		They threw it out.
		Remember this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remember this, sir.
		There's a lot of countries that tried it and then threw it out the door.
		So maybe we'll be one of those countries.
unidentified		I'm going to get my shovel ready.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You have a good night, sir.
		Take care.
		Yeah, BPL.
		Broadband over the power lines.
		the death knell for shortwave listening and information from outside the u_s_a_ you don't count me there you know you don't count me there Want a time travel?
unidentified		Go back to past shows on Streamlink.
		Sign up online at coasttocoastam.com.
		Well, you just don't realize Jacka Hooker.
		Jacka Hookah.
		Hookah.
		Hookah.
		Jackahoo.
		When you hold a jacket.
		When your arms so tight, let me know everything's alright.
		I'm hooked on a feeling.
		I'm high on the reading.
		But you're in love with me.
		It's as sweet as candy.
		It's tasted on my mind.
		Girl, you got me thirsty for another cup of wine.
		Got a bug from you, girl.
		But I don't need a cure.
		I should stay up again, if I can for sure.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West to the Rockies, call ART at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And those are the phone numbers.
		You know, I'm going to rely very heavily tonight on fast blasting.
		It's going to be so much fun having a skeptic here.
		I mean, what is a skeptic really?
unidentified		Is it somebody who disbelieves everything?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, these are things we'll ask about.
		Do you disbelieve everything automatically?
		Are you just automatically, absolutely skeptical of everything until somehow it happens right in front of your nose or to your nose?
unidentified		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's going to be fun to have a skeptic here, I think, and we'll pummel him with questions.
		And we'll see what he's all about.
		And so I'll rely, you know, on the computer.
		So if you get a chance, go to the website, coastcoastam.com.
		Go to Fastblast.
		And should something occur to you that just has to be asked why in the course of the conversation, I'll try and monitor the screen fairly closely and see if you come up with any zingers.
unidentified		Gunshot Gunshot Gunshot Gunshot
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For now, it's back into the unexpected darkness of the night with the first time caller line.
		You are on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing quite well.
		Thank you.
		Who are you and where are you?
unidentified		My name is Linda.
		And I'm in Peonya, Colorado.
		All right.
		Yeah.
		I had a special request.
		Last night I heard Whitney's wife what happened to her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yeah, she's actually, it's an aneurysm.
		And there's a lot of bleeding in the brain.
		And they're going to try and fix this aneurysm, Whitley told me, with some kind of really weird thing where they put something through your vein and go all the way into your brain.
		And then do, it's really wild.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		That is amazing.
		Well, you know, I really have listened to your show for about 10 years, and I really believe in the power of prayer.
		And my husband and I have been trying to have a baby, and I've had my first ovary removed, and most of my second one.
		And they said there's a chance there could still be a possibility.
		But I was just wanting to see if you could ask all the listeners to which is what you're doing, really.
		I am.
		I really, really, really, with all my heart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would like them to pray for a connection.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Well.
unidentified		This is the first time I've called, and I just really felt like this is what I needed to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wish you luck.
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
unidentified		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good luck, yes.
		Stay very active.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		All right, how are you doing tonight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quite well, thank you.
unidentified		This is Bill in Memphis.
unidentified		It's funny you should mention the broadband over power line being approved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm trying to find humor in it, but I haven't actually yet.
unidentified		Right, that's kind of going to mess with a few things we rely on up a little bit.
		But my wife annoxously bought a popular mechanics magazine just for no great reason.
		Yes.
		In November 2004.
		Yes.
		And she was reading to me about HDTV.
		HDTV ready is the article's topic.
		And in big letters, it has analog TV is to be phased out by the SEC in 2006.
		That's right.
		Yeah, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Here comes digital television, and it's going to have to happen.
		And the answer, I've got HDTV, sir, and not only is it ready, but when most Americans see real, high-definition television, their jaw is going to drop as far as it did on the day that they first saw color from black and white.
unidentified		Oh, it's phenomenal.
		But just check this little caveat about the equipment on the second page.
		Yes.
		It says, don't feel like dealing with HDTV yet.
		You may not have a choice.
		The FCC says it's phasing out analog TV transmission in 2006.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what, though?
		I know it's going to be a stressful thing on the American public, and I know it's going to be already stressful on the broadcasters who are having to install new equipment.
		But I am in favor of this.
		And I'm telling you right now, it's high time the U.S. revolutionized its television system.
		The rest of the world has been ahead of us too damn long.
		The Japanese and the Europeans have television and have had for years.
		It's been much better than ours.
		But on the plus positive side, what the caller said is true, 2006, it's going to have to change.
		And it will be worth it in the end, albeit some pain of now.
		I'm telling you right now that if you have not yet seen real high-definition television, when you first do, your jaw will drop every bit as far as it did the day you first saw color from black and white.
		That's how different it is.
		And it's high time America caught up.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Real quickly on your subject for the moment, I'd be wonderful if you would express that new television system in pixels.
		There's so many people with cameras now that would understand that without seeing it.
		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the format that I like is called, there's several, 1080i.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And basically, my screen, for example, will display 1025 by 1025.
unidentified		Beautiful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I can assure you, sir, after the normal 525 stand lines, you're going to just drop your jaw when you see it.
unidentified		The present television is as bad as my old vision.
unidentified		The subject of the Internet coming in over your power lines, that equipment has existed as an industrial product for the purpose of the transmission lines clear back as far as I would know anything about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, while what you're saying is true, all they've done, sir, is transmit somewhere below 500 KC, kilohertz, some kind of signal that reads your meter.
		That's all they've done.
		But, sir, what I'm trying to get through to you is what they're going to do is they're going to go from the top of the broadcast band all the way to the top of shortwave at 30 megahertz and then beyond, and they're going to be transmitting this awful jamming sound that's going to block out all the foreign broadcasts.
unidentified		I understand that.
		The point I want to accomplish is in the power industry, they would not use that equipment itself, particularly on the northeast coast.
		The power grid is so bad of shape, and the telephone lines that coordinate this are in such bad shape.
		I had to go back 50 years and put in my own equipment to prevent reclosures on power generation.
		But what I want to really accomplish is that they can shut off all this foreign news coming in here that doesn't come through our censorship.
		Oh, very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've hit it.
		You've hit it.
		That's exactly what this is all about.
		And for you to not think they're going to put it in the Northeast is naive at best.
		Oh, baby, it's going in.
		The dollar bill rules here.
		And if you can deliver internet over the very same power lines, no matter their condition, and I might have the worse their condition, the more radiation there's going to be.
		So this is a real setup for disaster.
		A number of countries have tried what we're about to do here in the U.S. and decided to hell with this and kicked it out.
		There were some tests done in scattered communities from Virginia down to Arizona.
		And it terrorized the local amateur operators, shortwave listeners, and people like that.
		And so I'm telling you, this is going to be something and not something good.
		West of the Rockies, you're on there.
		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		I just turned it off.
		Thank you.
		Yes, I was saying about how the people are skeptics and everything.
		And I had a chance first time to see on your internet.
		I've been listening to your show for about a year, at least a year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		By chance, I did get a chance to see on the internet some of the photographs you guys had about all these things and everything.
unidentified		And a friend of mine was worried, some of them are fake at Eric.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course they are.
unidentified		Yeah, they are.
unidentified		And I've noticed that some actually seem more real than fake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, some of them seem very real, and some of them are fake.
		Look, this program does not or should not give you the expectation of absolutism.
		In other words, if we put up a picture, let's say, oh, I don't know, of a beast, for example, like the Elmendorf beast that is not recognized, not understood, not genetically right with anything on earth, that doesn't mean that we've found something totally new yet.
		We're always out on the edge, and so a lot of what we put up, maybe somebody cooked up in Photoshop, you know, or maybe somebody, one thing or another, these days it's getting much harder to tell.
		So you always have to be wary, and you have to imagine that what you see and hear on this program may be total bunk.
		Or it could be a jewel of information, a virtual diamond that you will not pick up anywhere else but here.
		And so that's what happens when you live out on the edge.
		That's what this program is all about.
		International Line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hi, Art.
		Hi.
		Two points, one about sunspots and one about aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Okay, in the Edgar Casey readings, he actually says as much that these sunspots are aggravated by the, quote, turmoil and strife that have been and that are the sin of man.
		He says this repeatedly through a certain reading.
		It's reading number 5757-1.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, do you think the sunspot cycle of 11 years, then, is actually a cycle created by the actions of mankind?
unidentified		Not necessarily.
unidentified		There may be a sunspot cycle, and sunspots themselves may get aggravated and exaggerated by sinful activity on Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if I buy that one.
		Maybe I'd be the skeptic on that one.
		Sunspots are not completely predictable at the macro level, but the fuller look at this, and we can precisely tell you how the sun is going to build and wane in actually 22-year cycles and break it down to 11-year cycles and be quite right.
		For any given day or week, we can be wrong, and there can be a very large amount of activity suddenly.
		But over an 11-year cycle, it's completely and utterly predictable.
		Now, whether within that cycle, mankind in some way influences the action of sunspots, I don't know.
		That's pretty speculative.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yes, Arnard.
		I'd like to talk about the Yucca Mountain nuclear dump site, proposed dump site more than proposed.
		It's the law now, I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd like to talk about it, too.
unidentified		Yes, and I wanted to mention that, you know, I do think there's a reason not to go for Budnarik or one of the third-party people because this is a very serious issue, and Kerry has been very consistent against it despite what the other side is saying.
unidentified		And Bush implied to Nevada voters that he had an open mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen, hold it.
		I can tell you right now.
		In the Review Journal, which is a Las Vegas newspaper, it quoted Kerry as saying definitively, no wiggle room.
		If he's elected president, there will be no dump site at Yucca Mountain, period.
		He made that absolute statement.
		We're in a swing state here in Nevada, and so that means a lot.
		We'll see how much it means shortly.
unidentified		And I wanted to ask you, isn't that site about 75 miles as the crow flies from where you are?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, probably about that.
unidentified		Okay.
		Okay.
		And I think if you go on their website, I can't get into detail.
		It's too detailed.
		But if you go on their website, if you look at the mass of what they claim, how much it'll cost over a hundred-year period, they claim it'll only cost $655 billion, and you actually look at the scale of the project, the whole thing is completely phony.
		It's going to cost hundreds of billions of dollars more than that, considering the scale of the project.
		And considering it's more than 100 years, they're projecting it.
		So, and of course, it'll really go on longer than that, we know, but they only go up to 100 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, if you're actually looking at danger, though, and this is the part, you know, everybody thinks, well, screw Nevada.
		They actually had a bill, the screw Nevada bill, and they did.
		You know, it's coming here.
		But I'll tell you what, there's much more danger in its transportation than there is its end destination.
		In the transportation of this awful stuff, there's a tremendous amount of danger.
		I mean, compared to the amount of danger there will be to store it at Yucca Mountain.
		Let me phrase it that way.
		And that danger extends to just about everybody in the U.S. I mean, the routes covered.
		Particularly in this day and age of terrorism and people with shoulder-fired rockets and all that baloney.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello, excuse my phone, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all right.
unidentified		You had mentioned the 36s earlier in the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The implantable chip, yes.
unidentified		I found out that the 36s, they stand for a man.
unidentified		And what I found out is that, which is his title, while he's here on the planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, anyway, the bottom line is, sir, when they come to you and say, all right, it's time for your chip, what are you going to say?
unidentified		Well, it's a chip that's actually a religion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, are you going to take the chip or not?
unidentified		I'm not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't do it.
		They won't let you drive a truck if you don't take your chip.
		Now what?
		You need to hear it the better, I guess.
unidentified		What it is, is a vicar, son of God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about they take away your cell phone?
		Now will you go for it?
		I got to go, sir.
		Thank you very much.
		Take your truck and your cell phone.
		First.
		Whoops, would have been.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, I just wanted to give you a heads up about Doomsday, D-Day?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		D-Day.
unidentified		Yeah, that's June the 6th of 2006.
unidentified		The date will be 6666.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
		alright so that would be doomsday merely because it's six six six really used to the rockies you're on the air yes i'd like to talk about bpl uh...
		well this is art i i am art all right and march Am I on the radio?
		Good guess.
		Yes, turn your radio off or it will confuse you.
unidentified		Hold on, one thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, all the way officer.
unidentified		Okay, it's off.
unidentified		Art, you're saying that one thing to the truckers of the United States that I don't believe that they caught that BPL will eliminate their CB radios.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder, do you think they were listening?
unidentified		They are now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a little late.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm telling you, the horse is out of the barns, sir.
unidentified		The horse is out of the barn, but the truckers control the barn door in this country.
		Everything you get comes by a truck.
		I know.
		And what's going to happen is these truckers, there's a lot of people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think maybe there's going to be a convoy?
unidentified		Oh, like you never seen before.
unidentified		You get these truckers, man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These 18 wheelers are going to surround Colin Powell.
		Excuse me, Mr. Powell, not Colin.
		They'll go after the other Powell and surround him until he finally looks at their majesty in their diesel engines humming deeply in those big horns.
		And he says, that's it.
		BPL's toast.
unidentified		I would hate to be the first city to install BPL because you're going to inspire these truckers to just shut it down.
unidentified		This is no kidding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You really think they would be that?
unidentified		Absolutely, Art.
		You know, I'm a retired trucker.
		Yes.
		You have no earthly idea the safety factor involved in just listening to, if you've been on the road.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, look, I own a very large RV, 37-foot RV diesel, and when I'm out on the road, brother, it's the truckers who saved my butt.
		I can't tell you how many times.
		So you're preaching to the choir here, but it's going to be history.
		PPL is going to push it right out of the way along with shortwave and foreign broadcast.
		We're going to look back on these as the good old days, my friend.
		I mean, I hope you're right about the truckers.
		I hope they'll be that angry.
unidentified		Well, I hope the one thing that the truckers will do, and if they will do this tonight, burn your phone lines up.
		Burn it, burn it, burn it.
		And let's see how mad these truck drivers can get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And call who?
unidentified		Call you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Come call me.
		I'm about to have a guest on.
		No, look.
unidentified		I know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If BPL would be six feet in the ground if it was up to me, you preaching to the choir, you've got to get somebody like Powell at the FCC or, you know, like, now it's too late.
		I mean, I've been warning about BPL for I don't know how long and warning and warning, and now it's past.
		It's too late.
		Listen, I've got to go.
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
		We've got a skeptic coming up next on the program.
		That should be a lot of fun.
		His name is Dr. Michael Shermer.
		In the nighttime, I'm RFL.
unidentified		It's all right and it's coming home.
		We've got to get right back to building the sun as well.
		Subscribe to After Dark.
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		By the little things I say, I can set my eyes on you.
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		I'm out.
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		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Blowing it sky high is the job of my guest coming up, Dr. Michael Shermer.
		He is a skeptic.
		In fact, Dr. Michael Shermer is the founding publisher of Skeptic Magazine.
		So he's got to be like the 800-pound gorilla of skeptics.
		He's director of the Skeptics Society.
		See, there you go.
		Monthly columnist for Scientific American, the host of the Skeptics Distinguished Science Lecture Series at the California Institute of Technology, and the co-host and producer of a Fox Family series entitled Exploring the Unknown.
		Wow.
		Dr. Shermer received his B.A. in psychology from Pepperdine, his MA in Experimental Psychology from California State University, Fullerton, and his Ph.D. in the history of science from Claremont Graduate University.
		He's author of several books, including The Science of Good and Evil, Why People Cheat, Gossip, Share, Care, and Follow the Golden Rule on the Evolutionary Origins of Morality and How to Be Good Without God.
		Can You Be Good Without God?
		In addition, he has appeared on many national television programs as a skeptic of weird and extraordinary claims.
		Tonight, he is here.
		And now, here is Dr. Michael Shermer.
		Hey, welcome to the program, Doctor.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
		It's great to have you.
		Where are you?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I'm in Altadena, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Altadena, California.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		It's right on the borders there of Pasadena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I am most curious to know what kind of person a skeptic is.
		And boy, you're really at the top of the list after having read what I read introducing you here.
		You're really at the top of the list.
		So, I mean, what kind of person becomes, well, I don't know, a skeptic?
		What kind of guy are you?
		I mean, do you kick cats?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Really a skeptic is not so much as it's just a way of thinking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A way of thinking.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a scientific way of thinking.
		Just looking for the evidence, checking to see what's the quality of the evidence, how sound is the logic and rationality behind a particular claim.
		You can't just be a skeptic because it depends on the claim being made.
		There are people who claim that the Holocaust never happened, and they're Holocaust skeptics.
		And I investigated that and ended up becoming a skeptic of the skeptics instead of the claim.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you investigated the 9-11 event?
		Yeah, sure.
		Are you at all skeptical of the official explanation of what occurred?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		In general, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Think so?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a growing body of people out there, Doctor, that are, oh, I tell you, it's a movement.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, there was no plane that crashed into the Pentagon and on and on and on and on.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		It depends on the particular claim.
		Again, it's not that conspiracies can't happen.
		They do.
		Lincoln, for example, was assassinated by a conspiracy, but Kennedy wasn't, in my opinion.
		So again, we have to take them one at a time.
		You know, where's all the evidence for the planes that the plane that hit the Pentagon?
		Well, where's the evidence of the planes that hit the World Trade Center?
		They disintegrated, too.
		The planes disintegrate.
		There's no body parts because they disintegrated.
		That's what happens when planes hit at high speed like that.
		So, you know, again, we have to just take these one at a time, like the claim we never landed on the moon and the people, I call them the no-moonies.
		You know, they have like 20 to 30 different specific arguments that they make.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So far, I'm in agreement with you.
		I mean, I'm sure we went to the moon.
		I've had very compelling, strong, impassioned arguments made by people who say we didn't.
		And, you know, they throw out certain facts or what they think are facts.
		But I don't buy it.
		We landed on the moon.
		The 9-11 thing is, you know, so you're in safe territory with me so far, but there's, you know, there's a lot of other things.
		My goodness, a lot of other things.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		So you asked how I became a skeptic.
		I actually used to believe a lot of the paranormal stuff.
		When I was in a graduate program in experimental psychology in the mid-1970s, Uri Geller was all the rage, the Israeli spoon-bending psychic.
		And I remember seeing articles about him by experimental psychologists, PhDs who had tested him.
		And these were people that, you know, were really smart and well-educated.
		And I wanted to be a PhD psychologist.
		And I thought, well, they say there's something to it.
		There must be something to it.
		And there was a paranormal lab set up at UCLA by Thelma Moss.
		And I thought, wow, okay, those people are really smart and educated.
		So there must be something to this.
		And then I saw the amazing Randy, James Randy, on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.
		And he was doing all the same so-called paranormal tricks that the psychics were doing.
		And I thought, oh, well, there's something going on here.
		And Randy made an interesting point that I'll never forget.
		And that is that scientists are not trained to look for intentional deception.
		They're looking for unintentional deception by nature, camouflage and hidden patterns and things like that.
		But sometimes people just cheat and lie and make stuff up.
		And scientists are no better than anybody else at detecting that.
		So that told me that we can all be fooled.
		And then the study of illusion and magic showed me how easy it is, actually, for any of us to be fooled.
		And then when you get into the study of self-deception, it becomes even more powerful and obvious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know a number of witches.
		Witches, Doctor, and they fully believe their power is absolutely real, that the magic they do is very, very real.
		Have you ever encountered a witch, looked into witchcraft at all?
		And what have you found?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think there's a similar effect with the psychics, that there's a lot of self-deception going on there.
		They get a lot of reinforcement from their followers that they're doing something very effective, and that makes them think that they are effective.
		And so what kicks in then is something called the confirmation bias, where we look for and find confirmatory evidence for what we already believe, and we ignore disconfirmatory evidence.
		And so this is what fuels conspiracy theories.
		Once you have the conspiracy Theory in place, it's easy to find evidence to support it and just ignore all the evidence that doesn't fit.
		And you don't need much evidence to reinforce something you really want to believe.
		So, for example, people that go to psychics, we've tape-recorded the readings, and you can count the number of hits and misses just based on the people nodding yes or no.
		And the hit rate is pretty low.
		It's like 10 to 15 percent correct.
		And in that context, you think, well, why would anybody believe that?
		But in fact, what you see is them saying, well, it's incredible.
		But he got a lot of money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me just stop you for a second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going by your own words, you said the hit rate is 10 to 15 percent when you're talking about somebody reciting completely random things.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, but they're not random.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		In fact, they.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what are you qualifying as hits?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, things like he got the name of my uncle George or something like that.
		Well, when you actually look at the reading, you see the psychic rattling off names.
		I'm getting a Michael, a Mark, a Mary, a Sam, you know, and so on.
		And finally, he hits the name, and the person says, yeah, well, George, right, that's my great uncle who passed on.
		Oh, okay.
		And then they just feed it back to them and say, no, don't tell me who it is.
		I'm getting a George here.
		And the person will actually forget that they told him.
		And then misremember it as being something that the psychic got instead of what they gave him.
		Or they'll say things that are true for everybody.
		Like if it's a psychic who talks to the dead, which, by the way, anybody can talk to the dead.
		It's getting the dead to talk back.
		That's the hard part.
		It's a matter of just repeating things that are true for everybody.
		So anybody that's lost somebody will have a keepsake with them, particularly if they go to these readings.
		A photograph, a piece of jewelry.
		Men who've lost their fathers typically have their father's watch on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		That kind of thing.
		So you'll see they say this every reading.
		I'm getting a watch.
		He's telling me something about a watch.
		I don't know what this means.
		Of course he knows what it means.
		So sometimes it's just an outright scam that is being perpetrated on people and they don't realize it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But Doctor, surely we do not understand everything about the human brain yet.
		We're far from that.
		Yes.
		Right?
		So doesn't it stand to reason that perhaps there are people scattered among the frauds out there who really have developed a portion of their brain that we don't know anything about yet and are able to do things like predict events or look.
		Take remote viewing, for example, something that apparently most people have a discipline.
		Have you looked at remote viewing?
		It's very important.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I took a course in it and I taped a whole show on it and so on.
		Okay, the first part of your statement was correct.
		There's a lot we don't know about the human brain and the mind and what is mind and where is consciousness located, where is the sense of self located, things like this.
unidentified		Yes.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		But to go from that to, and therefore, isn't it possible that some people have developed some part of their brain?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, that's not a conclusion you can draw from a simple unknown thought.
unidentified		Why not?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Because that would require something completely different.
		For thoughts to actually leave your skull and traverse across space and go through somebody else's skull into their brain and influence their neurons.
		We know how neurons work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sounds fantastic, Doctor, but have you been looking into the quantum world?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		In fact, I just reviewed this film, What the Bleep Do We Know for Scientific American.
		Yes.
		And here's the problem there, is that quantum effects occur at a subatomic level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Neuronal effects where thought occurs is at a molecular level.
		It's about three orders of magnitude too big for quantum effects to take effect.
		They simply can't.
		It's too big of a leap.
		A quantum leap, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this whole statement you're making is a bit of a quantum leap, isn't it?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, listen.
		There's a simple physics problem here.
		These quantum effects, weird as they are, all occur at the level below the size of the atom itself.
		They're happening down at the size of electrons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, Doctor, let's just stop at the moment.
		Let's stop at quantum for a second, okay?
		I mean, just the fact that these effects occur at all are beyond everything we know.
		Now, we've confirmed they do occur.
		These quantum effects do occur.
		Doesn't that make you scratch your little skeptic skull?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, because they've been confirmed experimentally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed, so they're true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But yes, but we don't know.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		How do we?
		Well, we have some idea of how, and that the fact that there's a level of uncertainty, that itself is built into the fabric of nature.
		But that doesn't mean that the level of uncertainty leaps across that space gap to a macro level at which neurons occur.
		So although it's true that the wave function doesn't collapse until it's observed, the moon exists whether it's observed or not because the quantum effects are all washed out at the macro level.
		So there's no application across that gap.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, we don't understand how the macro communication or the quantum communication, which appears to occur at the speed of, well, gee, much faster than light, instantaneously, we just don't even begin to get that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		That's a quantum level, not the macro level at which we live at.
		Well, I mean, it's not...
		Okay, here's the problem, is that we have two mysteries.
		One is how does the quantum effects occur?
		And two, how do you explain consciousness from neurons firing?
		Okay, it's possible that the causal arrow goes down to the subatomic level.
		I think that's too much physics envy.
		One of the problems of science is that there's too much physics envy.
		Everybody thinks the big brother physics is the place we have to go to to explain something ultimately, and I think that's wrong.
		I think we have to go in the other direction toward emergence, self-organization, chaos theory, complexity theory.
		Consciousness as a problem to solve is going to occur at a higher Level than neurons firing.
		It's going to occur at groups of neurons firing, patterns of neurons firing.
		Patterns, systems, networks, neural networks, things like that.
		That's where the explanation for consciousness is going to come from.
		At a higher level, biology and systems theory is where the causal arrow should go.
		Not down, down, down into the world of physics, but up into the world of systems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It just seems to me, though, that the amount we don't understand about the quantum process alone should cause you to be at least a little concerned.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Concerned about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, from a skeptic's point of view, in other words, that if this actually is really happening, it's so impossible, according to everything we understand with physics, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just beyond.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Here's the problem, is that we have this micro quantum level and this macro level of classical physics.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		And there's two different physics going on, and no one has figured out how to unite the two.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that should be a problem for you, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you can't have two different sets of physics, right?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		But Art, the fact that there's something we can't explain doesn't open the door for all mysteries to be real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it does open a lot of doors, though, you know, when you talk to the remote viewers and you do observe.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but look, there's nothing in remote viewing that needs explaining because there's no phenomenon to explain.
unidentified		Oh?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've looked into this.
		And what happens when remote viewers are remote viewing is they're doing this kind of psychological game where they're drawing little pictures of things.
		And then at some point, somebody has to make an interpretation of whether that drawing is a hit or a miss.
		And that's where the subjectivity comes in.
		It's not an objective science.
		It's not where you have a multiple choice and they've statistically gotten a significant number of hits above chance.
		And when you do set it up like that, there is no effect that needs explaining.
		It's the same thing with all the psychics.
		There's simply nothing to explain.
		Whether quantum effects are weird or not, they don't have to be employed because there's nothing to explain.
		When you put psychics under controlled conditions, the effect fades.
		It disappears.
		They only operate well when there's a subjective element of what constitutes a hit.
		So I'm getting a red dress.
		What does that mean?
		Oh, the red dress means my mother gave it to me when I was eight.
		Okay.
		That's a hit?
		No, no.
		That's too subjective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but if there's a target, for example, of a remote viewer staring at a bridge in Great Britain and somebody over on this side draws a bridge and the surrounding countryside, I mean, that's a pretty good hit, isn't it?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, from what you just described, yeah, but that's not actually what happened.
		And no, you read the sort of tabloid equivalent explanations of these things, and it sounds impressive.
		When you actually read the scientific papers about it, you see where the flaws are, and the effects are not real.
		The effects are not replicable.
		This is one of the problems of sort of voodoo science, is where one lab gets an effect and no one can duplicate it, like with pole fusion.
		It's not impossible.
		It's entirely possible.
		It's just that once the announcement was made and other scientists rushed out in their labs to do it and nobody could replicate it, well, within weeks we realized, okay, there's something else going on here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait, wait, wait.
		Nobody said nobody could replicate it.
		Not everybody could replicate it.
		Some did replicate it.
		Others did not.
		Be fair.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about cold fusion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, obviously, if cold fusion was real, we'd have cold fusion machines in our kitchens by now, and we'd out.
		Well, there's something wrong with the claimed effect if virtually no one can get it to occur again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, but that wasn't true.
		There were a number of universities that did, and then a number that didn't, and a big controversy, I'll grant you.
		And I'm not saying that cold fusion is real, although the experiments now have been relegated to Europe, as I'm sure you're aware of.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, fine, yeah.
		I mean, even if Americans are too dogmatic or closed-minded or whatever, you have people in Japan are trying to replicate cold fusion.
		There's some people in Europe.
		If it was real, somebody would have nailed it down by now, because it's been, you know, 15 years now.
		Yeah, 15 years.
		So when an effect goes on and on like that, like aliens, UFOs, Loch Ness, Monster, Bigfoot, you know, decades go by and no one can find a body, no one can find physical evidence, that should be a clue that skepticism is probably most appropriate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is appropriate in many cases.
		I'm also kind of skeptical about a lot of things, but also very open.
		And that's where I think the division is between yourself and myself.
		I'm open to some possibilities, and I don't see how you couldn't be.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		It depends what you mean by open and which particular claim you're asking somebody to be open about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		You can't just be open about everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'm open, for example, about EVP.
		I bet you're familiar with that, electronic voice phenomena.
		The voices of the dead being recorded, you're familiar with that.
		That one leaves me open.
		I'm unable to shoot a hole in what a lot of these people are doing.
		And are you, do you get holes shot in that very easily?
unidentified		You shoot holes in it or what?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, voices on machines, the few I've heard, they always sound kind of unclear.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		It's not amidst a bunch of noise, what is it exactly we're hearing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there's a good place to stop.
		It's the bottom there.
		Hold it right there.
		What exactly are we hearing?
		And I agree with that.
		The Voices of the Dead or a Hoax?
unidentified		Now it begins Now that you're gone Needles and pins What like you've done Watching back fly Till you return Lighting the back door And watching you burn
		Now it begins Day after day This is my life Burn And the warnings on them beer cans Going to be buried in them landfills No
		deposit, no sad songs And no return Yeah, it's only going to take about a minute or so Until the factories blow up the sun out And you're going to have to turn your lights on just to see And then lights are going to be neon Saying fly our jets to paradise And the whole damn world's going to be made of styrene So listen to my brothers When you hear the nightlym's sigh And you see the wild ones flying Through the great polluted sky There won't be no country music There won't
		be no rock and roll Cause when they take away our country They'll take away our soul Yeah To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 7757271295.
		The first time caller line is area code 7757271222.
		To talk with Arc Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call Arc at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country spread access number, pressing option 5, and filing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		I'm already getting black.
		I can't stand my blood going up.
		You're driving me crazy!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this guy is Dr. Michael Shermer.
		He is a skeptic, and he's telling us why.
		We'll be right back.
		Subject ghosts or electronic voice phenomena, the voices of the dead, actually.
		Dr. Shermer, welcome back.
		I've heard some rather clear recordings, actually, over many, many shows of people.
		I don't know, these people are pretty good people up in Utah, and they haven't written a book.
		They're not making any money.
		They never come on here and sell anything at all.
		They simply gather together with recorders and go to graveyards, places like that, and get these voices for which there appears no other possible explanation.
		You rule out, you know, radio stations, they're brand new tapes, never been recorded on previously.
		So, you know, where do the voices come from?
		I try and shoot holes in it myself, but the voices are there.
		Saying relative things, by the way, I might add.
		Contemporary things, showing they're in the moment, that sort of thing.
		It's pretty wild.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, in a way, this is a signal noise problem.
		It's the same problem the SETI people have in determining whether a signal that's coming from outer space is part of the regular background noise you get, or whether it's a signal like aliens are sending a significant number, something like that.
		You know, I haven't heard every single tape anybody's made, but the ones I hear, you know, they're never really all that clear.
		You know, usually the claim it says something like, here, you can clearly hear he says whatever.
		And when you hear it without that context, it just to me sounds like noise.
		I don't hear it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, some of them, I will grant you, can be very interpretive, but a few times I've heard ones there's nothing interpretive about them at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they're exceptionally clear.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		But this is a little bit like the Play the Beatles albums backwards, and they offer the spooky words.
		You're going to get that, where random noises occasionally sound like words, because it's like the face on Mars business.
		We see faces because that's what we look for, because we're human.
		Faces are important for us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our brain wants to see something we relate to.
		Right.
		So, sure, there's some of that.
		And then would you then also attribute that to all of these millions of UFO sightings?
		You know, just millions.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		First of all, there aren't millions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		And second of all, different sightings have different explanations.
		There's not one universal explanation for all UFO sightings.
		And most serious UFologists will admit that a good 90% or so of the sightings are explainable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		So what we're down to here is looking at that 10% anomalies that are unexplained by traditional methods.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Granted.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		So for me, it's perfectly okay to just say, I don't know.
		We don't know.
		We don't have a good explanation for it.
		Let's just leave it at that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's perfectly okay to say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's perfectly okay to say there's 10% we cannot explain.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		But wouldn't that justify a serious scientific investigation of a serious scientific investigation is not the same thing as aliens landed here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It isn't.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		In science, we have what's called the residue problem.
		There will always be a residue of unexplained anomalies that the dominant theory at the time cannot explain.
		And that's just simply the way it is.
		It's just built-in limitations.
		It can't explain everything.
		So before you overturn the dominant theory that explained 90% of the data, however, your new theory has to explain the 90% and something more.
		And that's the problem with trying to introduce a new theory.
		It's not that paradigms can't shift and new theories can't be introduced.
		That happens all the time.
		It's just that it has to be a better explanation.
		And typically, the new explanations that are offered are not better.
		They're worse.
		It's just that they claim to explain a few of the anomalies, but they don't explain most of the other stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's stick with the ghost part of it for a second and drift over toward are you skeptical entirely of life after death, life or consciousness, continued consciousness of any sort after physical death?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't think there's any evidence for it at all.
		I think the best chance we have for that ever happening is through computer technology.
		That is, if we eventually can scan Our neural patterns, our networks of information that represent our personalities and memories, ourselves, into computers.
		Silicon is a much more durable medium than the electric meat of our protein.
		And that can last a lot longer until we have a still hardier medium to download our memories into and into the distant future.
		But that's pure science fiction at the moment, although there are some people that are working on this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you think the only way there'll be life after death is to leap into Microsoft's world?
unidentified		Yeah, some people like that.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure I'd want to trust a Windows platform for my eternal life, but yeah, it's along those lines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My eternal life.
		Oh, well.
		Have you given it any consideration?
		I mean, faced with what you as a skeptic, and I guess, well, gee, we could use other words, are you.
		Would you say you're agnostic or would you jump?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		At this point, I would be shocked if it turned out there's a God in an afterlife.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I would be amazed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'd be sitting there going, oh, my God, I can't believe it.
		Well, you know, great.
		I'm very fortunate.
		I'm happy that there's an afterlife, and, you know, I hope the God is a good God and doesn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you don't believe for one second there is, do you?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, practically speaking, no.
		I mean, philosophically, technically, yeah, I can't prove there's no God.
		I can't prove there's no afterlife, but I don't think there's good enough evidence for it I mean, like the Bible, for example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you know, there's...
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		It's socially, culturally bound.
		It's an edited book.
		It's obviously an edited book.
		All biblical scholars agree, virtually all biblical scholars agree that this is the case.
		It's obviously edited.
		The authors are writing against each other.
		They're arguing amongst themselves.
		There were books that were left out.
		Well, why were they left out?
		Because there was a committee that voted.
		Which books should go in?
		Which books should go out?
		What do you mean a committee that voted?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there was.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, and the stories are very human.
		You know, they have written all over them the culture of the times.
		I mean, the laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, for example, are absurd.
		I mean, you know, that adulterous women should be put to death.
		Well, gee, that's not something we would obey today.
		Disobedient children should be stoned to death.
		Come on.
		You know, and about not wearing certain clothing fabrics together, not eating certain kinds of foods.
		These were rules written for people 4,000 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm not in favor of any of that.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		In a very different context.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I don't know that that invalidates the whole Bible and the fact that, I mean, you obviously then don't embrace the concept that Jesus walked on earth as a man, huh?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I think there probably was a man named Jesus who definitely was a man who walked on earth.
		What I cannot make the leap of faith, and that's really what it has to be, is that he was a man of God.
		Is that he was God.
		That he was reincarnated, that essentially he was brought back from the dead.
		That, I think, is not a provable tenet.
		That is an article of faith.
		You either take the leap of faith and believe it, or you don't.
		And if you don't believe it, there's no point in being a Christian.
		You should be a Jew or something else.
		Well, and this is the problem I see with the whole science and religion business, is that the attempt to use science to prove articles of faith is diverting the whole point of religious faith.
		The whole point is just to believe, not to prove it.
		If you could prove it, what's the point of just believing?
		Everybody should be a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you characterize those with very strong faith?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how do you personally characterize them?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, no different than anybody of a commitment of anything else, like a political commitment.
		People that are heartily supporting Kerry or Bush are no different than people that heartily support Christianity or Judaism.
		These are beliefs that are arrived at for mostly psychological-emotional reasons.
		They're behavioral commitments that have to do with how you were raised, the belief of your parents, your peer groups, your teachers, your upbringing, that sort of thing.
		It has very little to do with science, reason, logic.
		It's a whole host of psychological factors.
		So people believe in Christianity for the same reason that they're Democrats or Republicans.
		That's how they were raised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that's something uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you don't think there's a I had a guest on the show who wrote a book called The God Part of the Brain.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know Matthew?
		I thought it was very good.
		I think it did.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I think there's something to that, although I don't think there's a God gene or a God module specifically.
		I think it has to do with a larger suite of behavioral, psychological things that are going on.
		For example, the whole idea of using God as an explanation for things, that's one aspect.
		But most people don't go to church in order to have some explanation for the origins of the universe and that if you can only teach about the Big Bang, then people wouldn't believe in God anymore, or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think it is that even if you go to the deepest jungles of South America where you find the tribe that has never encountered the rest of modern humanity at all, and they indeed worship something or another?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Inevitably, always, they worship.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that something or another is so radically different than the God that we worship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		What it is, is, again, that's just an explanation for something.
		Most, let's say, let's just take modern Americans.
		Do they go to church on Sunday in order to hear a sermon about the origins of life?
		No.
		They go for the social aspects, the music, the culture.
		Their friends are there.
		A little moral uplift.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it, huh?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Just a little bit.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Moral homilies for the children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sort of a nice tea party for everybody.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		In a way, it is.
		But more than that, it's a social cohesiveness.
		It's a binding, a bonding of people together.
		Religion plays a really important role in uniting people, encouraging cooperation.
		And this is where my book comes in of the evolution of morality.
		Religion plays a really important social role of reinforcing altruistic, pro-social, cooperative behavior.
		In other words, you should be nice instead of nasty, because we all know humans have a propensity to do nasty things.
		So religion was the first organized institute on the scene that codified the rules of good behavior into writing, to actually put it into stone, literally.
		And so what happened was about 5,000 years ago, before that, all humans were living in small bands and tribes of a couple of dozen to a couple hundred individuals, in which most behavior control could be enforced through informal means like shunning and guilt and shame and pride and joy and things like that.
		And most everybody was either related to one another or they knew one another.
		So it's easy to control people's behavior that way.
		Once populations started to grow to larger sizes, in thousands, tens of thousands, and even hundreds of thousands, there was too much anonymity.
		People didn't know one another, they weren't related to one another, so why should I be nice?
		Why should I be cooperative?
		Why not be an outlier, a cheater?
		Why not be a freeloader?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		there are these all questions that would apply to you who would doubt all of these things so without the restrictions uh...
unidentified		uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		applied uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		because of religion or what whatever else would we could talk about i mean why aren't you an outlaw with low moral mean or are you uh...
unidentified		uh...
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		i don't know what i was like that So you actually have sort of a group selection going on here in evolution where groups that are more cooperative and pro-social are more likely to be successful.
		So we actually have within us, I argue, a tendency to be moral, to be good, if it can be reinforced through culture and society.
		And that's what these institutions are for.
		I'm not saying religion is bad, in fact, religion is really good for a lot of these things.
		It's just that it was the first on the scene, so it has a 4,000-year head start over secular institutions.
		So what happened in the Enlightenment 400 years ago was the thinkers said, look, these are values that are good in and of themselves, even if there is no God, or even if you believe a different God, or you're committed to a different religion, we still hold these values to be self-evidently true, sacred, whatever term you want to use.
		And those are the founding fathers of our country.
		So the separation of church and state is actually better for religion because it protects religion.
		And it says to everybody who lives here, these are the rules we're going to live by.
		And I don't care if you believe in God or not.
		You still have to do this.
		You still have to be good.
		And that's good for everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if you don't believe in all of these things that dictate this control you've talked about, well, then where are you?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what states are for, too.
		States have laws.
		Actually, states are better at it than religion.
		Religion just has moral precepts that says you're going to be punished in the next life if you're not good.
		So your morality say you're going to be punished now if you don't get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then your personal morality stems from just the fact that you don't want to break the law and get in trouble?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No.
		In fact, that's the limitation of religious morality, is it's based on a reward and punishment system.
		What a secular system of morality says is that these values exist in and of themselves, that people have value in and of themselves, and will be better as a group if everybody does these things.
		And it's better if you do it now because there is no next life to be rewarded or punished.
		The reward has to come now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it jumps that far, huh?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
		I think it's a higher moral value to be good rather than to not be good because people have value in and of themselves and it's better for the group than the religious system, which is based on some payoff in the distant future.
		I would rather know that you want to be good and nice to me because you value me, as opposed to because you think you're going to get paid off or you have fear of punishment from God.
		I think it would be a higher moral value if you just held those values in and of themselves because people have value.
		And that's the point, I think, of the Enlightenment values that we cherish in this country that are built into the Constitution.
		Regardless of your religion, these values are important.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, yes, they are.
		Yes, they are.
		Although, I'm not sure how they're inculcated without religion.
		Then all you have is fear of punishment in the real world.
		The court sending you away to jail or whatever.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Because we're used to religion.
		Again, religion's had a 4,000-year head start.
		What the secular system in America is trying to do is to say we should raise our kids to be this way and have these values, regardless of what religion you are.
		Even if you're not religious at all, these are still good values.
		And so we've only had a little over 200 years to think about this and talk about it culturally.
		But religion's been doing this for thousands of years, and they do it pretty well.
		But we can do it better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Well, but see, in the modern world, a lot of people have let their religion go.
		They've lost their religion, basically.
		And we see a corresponding rise in the crime rate, and particularly the terribly immoral type crimes.
		We see a big rise in that, and a lot of people see a connection.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I dispute that.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Actually, crime rates are much lower than they've been since the 60s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm talking about a larger span of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you know, modern man as religion has sort of slipped away.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, life is much better than it was even 500 years ago.
		All of us are much safer than we've ever been.
		Healthier, longer alive, less likely to get mugged, raped, and so on than compared to 500 years ago.
		It's much better, thanks to liberal democracy and free markets.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it may, of course, depend on which part of the world you're talking about.
unidentified		Well, yeah, okay.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		But those are theocracies in these awful third world nations.
		They're either dictatorships or theocracies.
		So it's not that religion is bad.
		It's that any form of extremism where there's a monopoly of power, whether it's a theocracy, a dictatorship, or whatever, that's the danger.
		Religion's fine most of the time.
		It's extreme religion, just like extreme Marxist cultures are very dangerous.
		Any kind of extreme monopolistic power like dictatorships and theocracies, that's the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like those we face now in this war on terrorism.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		See, one of the reasons that Americans are so much more religious than Europeans is that Europeans don't have a free market of religion.
		We have a free market of religion here.
		Religions have to compete for limited customers.
		And they've gotten much better at doing religion.
		They're more flexible.
		They're more tolerant.
		They're more willing to change in order to give people what they need and want.
		And that's what free markets do.
		In Europe, the churches all get the same amount of tax dollars no matter how many people are out there in the pews.
		So they're not motivated to try to update their religion, to try to make their religion relevant for the people sitting in the pews.
		Whereas American religions are very vibrant and flexible because they have to be.
		That's the value of separating church and state.
		It's much better for religion.
		Christians that are in favor of blending church and state, they don't get that.
		They don't see that it's actually bad for them to do this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, heaven knows.
		That keeps up.
		Pretty soon we'll have rap in church.
		You'll go to Sunday church service and they'll rap it to you.
		Maybe that's the future.
		Dr. Michael Shermer is here.
unidentified		There's something happening here.
		What it is ain't exactly clear There's a man with a gun over there Telling me I've got to beware I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound?
		Everybody look what's going down There's battle lines being drawn
		Where are those happy days?
		They seem so hard to find I tried to wage for you, but you have close to mine Whatever happened to our love I wish I understood It used to face a lie, it used to face a fool So when you need me darling, can't you hear me?
		It's so nice The love you gave me nothing, this can save me, SOS When you're gone, how can I even try to go on?
		When you're gone, go and try, how can I carry on?
		Two children!
		with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Michael Shermer is obviously a bright guy, and that makes it a lot, a lot harder to, I guess, to listen, really.
		If you're out there listening, he's obviously a very bright guy.
		Now, if we had someone on the air saying, well, you know, I don't believe in the afterlife because, wow, I ain't never seen it.
		Well, you could deal with that.
		But this is a really bright guy saying, well, no.
		In a moment, we're going to take a few moments out, actually, and try and connect with Whitley Streeber, whose wife collapsed about an hour before the program in his airtime last night, get an update on how she is.
		that coming up if we're lucky you All right, about an hour before he was due to be on the air last night, I talked to Whitley, who's just in a panic, told me, my God, Ann's collapsed, clicked, that was it.
		And we've been following this story ever since.
		First thought to be perhaps diabetes-related, and then perhaps a stroke.
		Here's Whitley Streeber, my co-author and my very good friend, with the latest on Ann's condition.
		Hi, Whitley.
unidentified		Hey, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long have you been up now?
unidentified		26 hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		26 hours.
unidentified		And I'm just about to go to sleep for the first time since Friday night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I sure appreciate your coming on to give us an update.
		God, what a trauma we have.
		Where are we?
		What's going on?
unidentified		I believe in prayer, and we were not as bad off last night as we could have been.
		In cases like this, half the people who have this die on the way to the hospital.
		The other half, 50% of those, come out with no deaths.
		In other words, they recover fully.
		The other 50% have some deficit.
		And so let's pray for recover fully.
		She has a very important operation tomorrow morning, and then After that, we go on the recovery wagon and let's see what we can do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so we're clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This was an aneurysm, right, in the brain?
unidentified		It was a brain aneurysm.
		It came out of nowhere.
		It was the single most shocking moment of my life when she simply fell over in the bathroom without warning.
		I got her before her head hit the floor.
		And this vital, brilliant, immensely wonderful woman was just laid low.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Out.
unidentified		Yeah, just like that.
		And I just have to tell you that I can't help thinking about how many others of us in this community have had sudden catastrophic accidents and so forth just in the past few years.
		And John Mack died only just a couple of weeks ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there have been many.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, Betty Hill is said to have passed.
unidentified		Betty Hill passed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Betty Hill passed is what I'm hearing, yes.
		Anyway, Anne has not.
		Anne is alive.
		She has, what, I guess they've done an MRI or whatever, a CAT scan.
unidentified		No, they've done all the basics.
		And I might also thank the Art Bell listeners who were part of the Kaiser Permanente staff who came to the hospital last night immediately.
		And they were useful.
		Those people were our lifeboat.
		and it was a tremendous thing, and now there's a There's a doctor who has come forward who helped us get into a hospital that was very difficult to get into where it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you this, Willie.
		You described to me sort of a procedure she's going to go through in which something is inserted through a vein somewhere and it goes all the way up to the brain to try and fix the aneurysm.
		Is that what's happening?
unidentified		This is what's going to happen is they're going to insert this thing in her leg, goes all the way up the body, through the veins, into the brain, and into the aneurysm where it becomes a coil.
unidentified		And it just replaces the aneurysm with the coiled platinum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's incredible.
unidentified		Listen, it is incredible.
unidentified		And it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When might they attempt this?
unidentified		They will start at 7 o'clock tomorrow morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As in this morning?
unidentified		Yeah, this morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you really need to get sleep.
unidentified		Man, I'm telling you, I am crashed.
		I just wanted to come on to just thank everyone who helped us and everyone who prayed because I know this is a group of people who knows how to pray a lot of them.
		You're as serious about it as we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		I think it helped.
unidentified		And I would humbly request that you do it again for her to get full recovery because we could get that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Done.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whitley, take care.
		Go get some sleep.
		We'll look forward to a report shortly.
		Thank you so much.
unidentified		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, my friend.
		Oh, there's Whitley Striber.
		All right.
		All right.
		So this is going to launch a pretty good discussion, actually.
		A really good one.
		Dr. Shermer, welcome back.
		Hey.
		Dr. Shermer is a skeptic.
		Now, Dr. Shermer, there have been, let's talk about the power of prayer for a second.
		We're asking people to pray for this man's wife, Anne, who has, well, you just heard.
		Now, there have been double-blind studies, Doctor, on the power of prayer.
		Very well-controlled, scientifically controlled experiments on the power of prayer, in which a group of sick people are prayed for, double-blinds, and then a group of, they're divided, and one's prayed for and one's not.
		And inevitably, the one prayed for makes a far faster and better recovery.
		The results have been fantastic and documented.
		And so I wonder what you say about that.
unidentified		Wow.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Right.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, on the heels of the story of your friend, and, you know, gosh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all right.
		You go right ahead.
		I mean, these are scientific studies.
		And moreover, Doctor, on this program.
		Let me finish.
		Let me finish.
		On this program, I did a series of experiments.
		I'm going to add to the equation here a little bit.
		And in these experiments, young and foolish years ago, I did, oh, I don't know, eight or nine or ten several regarding people's health, and then a few that produced rain in areas that had absolute drought and no forecast for rain.
		We did some amazing things.
		Not in the name of God.
		We just did mass concentrations.
		And so I guess what I'm saying is, you know, either leave God's name in this or not, if you wish.
		But I'm concluding, and many others are scientifically, that there is a mass consciousness effect and that it's real.
		And there's quite a bit of science behind it.
		Princeton is doing some very good things with that.
		Duke University is doing some things.
		I mean, there's some serious people doing things with this.
		So can you, as a skeptic, say, oh, baloney?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's also been some really good critiques of the methodologies that I just summarized in an article for Scientific American that will be out next month.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm listening.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		And there's numerous problems, but let's just start with the theological problem that I find most problematic.
		And that is, does God need to be reminded that somebody is ill?
		An all-knowing, all-powerful being doesn't know that Mr. Stryver's wife just collapsed.
		He doesn't know this, and he has to be, what, reminded or asked?
		Well, I mean, I'm just saying that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I took it beyond that.
		You take it beyond that.
		Whether it's in God's name or it's simply a function of the human brain in consequence.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so let's say it's not God, that it's tapping into some universal spirit or something like that.
		Okay.
		Okay, here's the other problems.
		In the prayer studies themselves, it's never explained exactly what the dosage is.
		That is, are two 20-minute prayers the equivalent of one 40-minute prayer?
		Is it better to have a priest praying than a parishioner?
		Is a priestly prayer worth 10 parishioner prayers?
		This would be like saying, you know, extract of seaweed cures cancer.
		Okay, well, what was the dosage?
		I don't know.
		Where'd you get the seaweed?
		I don't know.
		Well, what kind of seaweed was it?
		I don't know.
		This doesn't really tell us anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It nor does it disprove.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		But the more serious problem methodologically is this is pointed out in several studies in Lancet, in which they did an analysis of all the significant studies you referenced.
		And that is there's no consistency across the studies.
		So like, for example, in the two famous studies with heart patients, they measured lots of different things.
		20, 25 different measures, outcome measures were taken.
		And the difference between the prayed for group and the non-prayed for group was insignificant for all but, I think, six of the measures.
		No, I think it was four of the measures.
		And in the other study, it was four different significant measures that were significant.
		The ones that were significant in one were not the ones that were significant in the other.
		So there was no consistency across the studies, no replication across the studies.
		That was another methodological problem there.
		And so these things are fraught with, well, methodological difficulties, to say the least.
		And it sounds nice, and it is a warm, human, social thing to do, to care for our friends and loved ones.
		And that's fine.
		And to know that you are a member of a community and a family with people and friends that love you, that does make a difference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But your own personal view would be that prayer is just a waste of time.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, intercessory prayer, that is where the person doesn't know they're being prayed for and you're asking something or someone out there to intercede on some higher spiritual plane or dimension or some such thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, indeed, yes.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I would say that there's, at present, there's no evidence that that really does have an effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
		But there is some evidence.
		I mean, you may have problems with the methodology, but there is some evidence.
		That's actually the problem, Doctor.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		There are some really big studies being done, as you said, at Duke and Princeton, and there's one at Harvard that's being done.
		And that's good.
		I mean, there's nothing wrong with doing tests.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think people are...
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean by prayer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think that the studies would have reached these prestigious universities if there wasn't significant reason for somebody with an awful lot of education to say, hey, there's something going on here?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, because a couple things.
		One, we live in a very religious country, and two, there's a huge movement to unite science and religion, and it's largely driven by the Templeton Foundation.
		And this is one of those interesting social phenomena where you follow the money.
		A lot of these studies, most of them, in fact, are funded by Templeton money.
		And that's okay.
		This is a free society, and Templeton can do their research.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe science and religion are going.
		Have you considered the possibility that, boy, it would be a rough day for skeptics, I know, but that science eventually is going to be able to prove some of this.
		Then what?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, we can deal with that.
		But what does it mean to say something is supernatural?
		As soon as science offers an explanation, what science is doing is offering a natural explanation.
		As soon as it has an explanation, it's no longer part of the supernatural.
		So if you expand the sphere of science into the unknown, the supernatural and the paranormal are simply going to disappear.
		They just won't exist anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe what you're scoffing at now, though, will become fact.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		If it does, fine.
		But we would want to know what's the mechanism.
		What do you mean by prayer?
		Do you mean thinking positive thoughts?
		Do you mean actually asking something else to intercede?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm actually, but again, I want to leap beyond just prayer if we can.
		Not that there's a thing in the world wrong with prayer.
		We're asking for it for Anne, in fact.
		But I'm saying that there's an awful lot of consciousness work being done at these universities that is absolutely astounding.
		I'm going to give you another one, all right, so we can move away from God for just a moment.
		This study with computers, or eggs, they're called, I'm sure you're at least a little up on that, aren't you?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		On the which?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I didn't hear you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what they're doing at Princeton with this large computer that's then connected to a whole bunch of other computers geographically scattered around the globe.
		They report back to the mama computer, and they have seen incredible things like the needles going right off the charts a few hours before 9-11.
		They're doing all this mass consciousness stuff.
		You're not up on that.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, darn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, darn.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they can do everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's right.
		Well, it's incredible stuff.
		I mean, it's all sort of in the same alley, this mass consciousness kind of thing, where there are some prayer results that are startling to, I think, even scientists.
		So.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, we can certainly use the Internet as an example of this sort of networking of human individuals across the globe, certainly.
		Is there some other form of energy that we don't know about that acts like the Internet?
		The so-called hundredth monkey phenomena or something like that that I do know something about.
		No, I don't think so.
		I mean, not that we know of.
		What we have are a Lot of weird anomalous things that happen that we try to explain, and since science can't explain all these things, we then turn to suprascience or paranormal explanations or whatever.
		I think it's okay to just say, you know, this is a really weird, spooky thing, and we don't know what the explanation is, and maybe someday we'll have a natural explanation.
		But before we say something is out of this world, let's first make sure it's not in this world.
		Let's try to use the best science we have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I certainly agree with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just suggesting that some of the things are you familiar with the Brookings Institution study that says that if aliens landed, why you might not want to tell the populace because they couldn't tell you.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I completely disagree with that.
		I think it's absurd.
		I think the public would be fine with it.
		I think it would be a news story for...
		In other words, it would be...
		What if we actually found a signal?
		That's right.
		What would happen with the stock market collapse?
		No, I don't think so.
		Remember back in 96 when the Mars rock story hit and they found life on Mars and this little meteorite.
		Okay, this was a huge news story.
		And Clinton made a big speech about it.
		And it was very exciting.
		We all got tons of interviews for a couple of days and cover of Time magazine.
		But within two weeks, it was a debt issue.
		There was nothing more to report.
		And business went on as usual, and I think that would be the case.
		I don't think the government's covering up aliens in Area 51 because they're afraid to tell the public because the stock market would collapse.
		I think that's just baloney.
		I don't think any of that would happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you don't think there's any chance that our government perhaps has had contact with aliens and might have craft or bodies or something you think that's just all i think that's probably not the Yeah, they sure do.
unidentified		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You admit that.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		They do.
		And I think that probably explains a lot of these anomalies.
		I mean, the lying about national security secrets, which we know goes on all the time, that can account for why information has big blocks of blacked-out type on it, that kind of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, I mean, what do you think?
		The government would just say, hey, you know, guess what?
		An alien did land, and we've got visitors.
		And, well, here's one of them.
		Let's bring them out with the president here.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think somebody would.
		It's hard to keep people quiet.
		This is the problem.
		There's two problems with conspiracy theories.
		And I heard this from G. Gordon Liddy when I was on his talk show.
		And I figured, well, this guy knows more about conspiracies than I do because he was in on one.
		And so I'll ask him.
		And he explained to me that the problem with conspiracy theories are twofold.
		One, competence, and two, the leakage problem.
		One, competence.
		Government officials are generally fairly incompetent.
		Bureaucrats are generally unable to pull off their jobs, let alone elaborate conspiracies.
		And two, there's the leakage problem.
		You can't get people to keep their mouths shut.
		People just like to talk.
		And the bigger the conspiracy, the more people would have to be involved.
		And the chances of keeping them from going on Larry King Lie, the next on Oprah, and so on, book contracts, television shows, and so on, that would be so appealing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you suppose we ever kept the secret of the atomic bomb, the Manhattan Project?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We did keep that secret.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, we didn't.
		I mean, the secrets were pirated out and given to the Soviets.
		We know this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is a huge problem.
		We're talking about much later.
		I'm talking about during the discovery and construction phase.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, even there.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, even there, they were sneaking stuff out even still in the 40s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back during the construction phase of the atomic bomb?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, toward the end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the Manhattan Project was a successful sneaker.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and boy, they had to go to elaborate means to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they did, but they did do it.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		For a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold on.
unidentified		Well, I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I am saying I am in only half of what I am It's so clear to me now My
		heart is on fire And you talk about anything And you talk about anything You got the beam.
		Give up the booze and the one nightstand And then you settle down It's a quiet little town And forget about everything You know he'll always keep moving.
		You know he's never gonna stop moving.
		Cause he's rolling.
		He's the rolling stone.
		When you wake up, it's a new morning.
		The sun is shining.
		It's a new morning.
		You're going home.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed So, raging through the night this night with Dr. Michael Shermer, who is a skeptic.
		He's a real skeptic.
		We'll tell you more in a moment.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		Gunshot
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All righty, then.
		Updating you in case you just joined the show on the radio with me is Dr. Michael Shermer.
		And he is a founding publisher of Skeptic Magazine.
		He's director of the Skeptic Society, a monthly columnist for Scientific American, host of the Skeptics Distinguished Science Lecture Series at the California Institute of Technology, co-host and producer of a Fox family television series called Exploring the Universe, has a BA in psychology from Pepperdine, M.A. in Experimental Psychology from California State University, Fullerton and Ph.D. in the history of science from Claremont Graduate University.
		He's a smart guy, but he's skeptical.
		Very, very, very, very skeptical.
		And I wonder, Doctor, are you at all skeptical of why we went to war with Iraq?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, of course I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you are.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good and consistent, at least.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I think it's pretty obvious that there were a lot of political, economic reasons that really have nothing to do with terrorism.
		I think most people, at least that are not committed Bush supporters, recognize that fact.
		That at some point we were all supportive of Bush going into Afghanistan.
		He had 90% approval ratings at that point and so on.
		And then the diversion, the sharp left turn into Iraq, I think obviously was a mistake in retrospect.
		At the very least, it would be nice to hear from the administration something along the lines of it seemed like a good idea at the time.
		We thought that's what the evidence showed about weapons of mass destruction and so on.
		Obviously, we were wrong.
		So let's just try to make the best with what we have.
		Now, at least that would make the American people feel like, okay, you know, they're leveling with us.
		It's the problem we talked about earlier.
		Do governments lie?
		Yeah, they do.
		And we all know it.
		And that's what makes it so difficult to get behind the administration when they're incapable of admitting any kind of wrongdoing or even just mistakes.
		Not moral mistakes.
		Just, you know, it seemed like a good idea at the time.
		Even Kerry voted for the war at the time because it seemed that's where the evidence was.
		And to have a leader who's incapable of subtle nuance and saying, I was wrong, that's kind of scary.
		We really need, in a complex world like this, we need a leader capable of saying, I changed my mind.
		I have new evidence and I have a different opinion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's a political word for us called, they call it waffling, you see, and you can't waffle.
		Yeah, you can't be wrong.
		Right?
		That's very.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		There's a good article in today's New York Times magazine about the faith of George W. Bush, and he shows, the article shows that when you have a deep faith commitment that you're absolutely right no matter what, then you cannot be steered in a different direction no matter what the evidence is.
		And that's scary.
		That's not what you want in a political leader in a complex world that's always changing.
		You need somebody who's flexible.
		There's plenty I like about George Bush, but this is really a serious problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's really a political leader.
		You know, before I even ask, I got so much more in terms of an answer to that question than I expected.
		Only 40% of the audience hated you before I asked that question.
		Now, 60% of the audience hates you.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've made a definitive and strong political statement that I didn't expect.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's on a specific question, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure was.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		You know, George Bush's economic policy, I agree with that.
		I'm an economic libertarian and a social liberal.
		I mean, I'm what I would call a secular Republican.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A secular Republican.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Just leave God out of it.
		Yeah.
		Just run the country like a corporation.
		Just, you know, run it as a business.
		It's a political organization.
		It's not a religion.
		I don't want to vote for a religious leader.
		We're voting for the commander-in-chief, not the chief chaplain of America.
		We have plenty of chaplains.
		We need a political leader who's savvy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, all the politicians have to understand the amount of faith out there and be careful with it.
unidentified		Well, of course.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		You'll never get elected if you don't tread that fine line.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about people?
		People seem to have so many talents for which there is really no explanation.
		Water witching is certainly one of them.
		Maybe there's even a little science perhaps mixed in with this.
		I don't know.
		But it does seem that some people are blessed with the ability to find water.
		Have you ever looked into that?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		There's been a number of really good controlled tests of water witchers in a laboratory where there are buckets of water and these are opaque boxes in which inside there are big five-gallon jugs of arrowhead water or just empty jugs of arrowhead water.
		And the water witcher, the water dowser, has to determine which boxes have the water and which don't when they can't see through the boxes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're telling me they couldn't.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		And they can't.
		No, they never do.
		They have never once been able to do this.
		Not just boxes.
		Sometimes they have pipes running through.
		Some pipes have water.
		They don't.
		The experiments get more or less elaborate, but they are never able to find the water greater than randomly guessing.
		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No kidding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there's just not a thing to it.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No.
		There's not.
		I mean, people can find water, but that doesn't mean that they're doing it by that effect.
		It's just that there's a lot of groundwater, and if you make enough guesses, you're going to be right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would the word agnostic or atheist more likely describe you honestly?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm just crazy about labels.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Agnostic is fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they have meaning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		These words have meaning.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		They do.
		And that's why agnostic is a good word.
		It was coined in 1869 by Thomas Henry Huxley, who meant by it that God is an insoluble problem.
		Science will never be able to determine whether there is or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you like agnostic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		well that's you know there's hope that i suppose if most humans I mean that I'm saying there will never be any evidence to support it, to support the claim that there is or is not a God one way or the other.
		It's not a scientific testable problem.
		Yeah, at the moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If most humans in the world were colorblind and only a very small percentage of them actually had the ability to see color, do you think that would mean that color doesn't exist?
unidentified		What in the world is people like you saying this color thing is baloney?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, 90-something percent see what we all see, black and white.
unidentified		These people claim they see color.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's stupid to even imagine that could be true.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Right, but most people don't believe in God because they've actually seen God or heard the voices or whatever.
		I mean, this whole idea of the God module that we talked about before, the God module in the brain, I think that goes a ways toward explaining some of the religious visionaries of the past, where they hear voices, they see angels, the angels speak to them, God speaks to them, that sort of thing.
		But most people, when you ask them why they believe in God, they don't say because God spoke to me one night or, you know, I saw a vision and the archangel Michael appeared in my bedroom.
		You know, most people, that's not what they say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, you'd be surprised how many callers I would get who would say that.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, you have a selective audience.
		I mean, sociologists of religion, they survey people like hardly anybody.
		I mean, it's a tiny, tiny percentage.
		Most people believe because they were raised that way.
		Why are you a Catholic?
		Because I was raised a Catholic.
		Why are you Protestant?
		My parents were Protestants.
		Same reason why most people are Democrats or Republicans.
		It's a culture in which they're raised.
		They're family, their friends, social circle, their peer groups, and so on.
		Few of us, and scientists included, don't arrive at these beliefs for rational, logical, scientific reasons.
		They arrive at them for other reasons.
		The difference with science...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what would be the point?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Our point here is to understand why people believe that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then you're a compassionate skeptic, then?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I'm a passionate scientist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I said compassionate.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Oh, compassion.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Compassionate skeptic.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, of course.
		I'm interested in knowing why the world works the way it does, and that includes why people believe what they believe, including why scientists believe what they believe.
		I mean, scientists believe all sorts of wacky things, too.
		I wrote a chapter for my Why People Believe Weird Things book.
		I wrote a new chapter for the second edition called Why Smart People Believe Weird Things.
		That's the interesting problem.
		And the answer, in short, is that smart people are better at rationalizing beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons.
		So scientists, professors, academics, and so on are really good at justifying, say, political beliefs, social attitudes, and so on that they hold.
		But they didn't arrive at those beliefs for any sort of rational, academic, logical, scientific reasons.
		They arrived at them and hold them for all kinds of emotional reasons.
		But they're smart, so they're good at justifying them and giving reasons for the belief.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me try one out on you here.
		It's interesting.
		It's sort of something that a lot of people believe right now, but mainstream everything is in the middle of denial about it.
		There's this amazing thing going on in the world now where if you look at the North Pole and you look at the South Pole, Doctor, they're melting.
		They're actually melting.
		And this will potentially, according to a lot of people who are studying such things, have a gigantic effect on the ocean currents, which in turn then will have a gigantic effect on our weather.
		And all of a sudden, we're beginning to see all these articles written by perhaps some would call them people on the fringe saying something really awful is going to happen with regard to our environment.
		What do you think about that one?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		You mean global warming in general?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Is that really true?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guess.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I think there's really good evidence that global warming is real and happening at a fairly specific rate, and that whether it's human-caused or naturally caused or a combination thereof is not as clear.
		There's not as much scientific consensus on that.
		Although in the last year or so, there's been more evidence to show that humans have had some role, although it looks like sunspot activity and other natural phenomena also probably play a part in that.
		We know now from climatological studies that the environment in, say, the past 100,000 years or so has taken some wild swings, huge swings, that could have dramatic effects.
		And not in the course of thousands of years, but dozens of years.
		Not in the matter of days like in that film, but in the course of a few years to a few dozen years, you could get some pretty wild swings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now we're starting to see these suggestions that there's a kind of a breakpoint and an acceleration at this breakpoint that occurs.
		It gets past a certain point and it becomes runaway.
		And many, or not many, but some are now starting to say that switch has now been thrown and the process of the acceleration into what you just talked about is actually underway now.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
		I'll tell you one thing that kind of put me off on a lot of the extreme environmentalism movement that began in the 70s when I was in college was I believed all those doomsday claims that were being made by like Paul Ehrlich, for example, about population bomb.
		And by the 1980s, there'd be no more oil, no more rainforest, and so on.
		And none of that happened.
		And so that kind of turned me off on some of that.
		I thought, you know, these extremists on the environmental movement, they were really wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But a lot of it did happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of rainforest was burned.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, that's right.
		I just think the problem is more long-term and systematic.
		But I'm optimistic we can still do something about it.
		I don't think we're doomed.
		I think we can change our ways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I want to try out another line of thought on you while I still turn you over to the audience at the top of the hour.
		That will be an experience for the both of us.
		But right now, I want to ask this.
		In medicine, it's pretty well known that if you give somebody a sugar pill, you've got an alarmingly high chance of actually achieving a cure.
		An alarmingly high chance of achieving a cure.
		I think you'd agree with that, wouldn't you?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, not for everything.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I mean, cancer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Not cancer, but other things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't push me there.
		Not for everything.
		I agree.
		But for a lot of...
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the placebo effect is well established.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		So then I'm going to ask you this.
		Where's the harm?
		If a psychic says something to somebody or if they come to believe something is true and so they proceed with that faith toward their objective, what's the harm?
		What's the harm?
		If it actually helped them, no matter the mechanism that produced the drive that got them to go there, then where is the harm?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess it depends.
		In some cases, you know, there may be no harm.
		In other cases, I think it's better to live in a world of reality rather than non-reality.
		I mean, in some cases, doing drugs may be great for stress.
		Drinking may be great for dealing with some problems, but it has other long-term consequences that are not so beneficial.
		I think paying a psychic $3.95 a minute when it's just a scam rip-off, you'd be better off going to a professional trained psychotherapist or a counselor or just talking to a good friend who won't charge you anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		well maybe but but again if you believe that what that's like it says is true and the placebo effect of is is constant in this area and i believe that it is because it's it's it's I mean, don't you believe the same percentage of placebo would occur with believed words from a psychic as believed words from a doctor followed by a sugar pill?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how much difference is there?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Not much.
		Yeah, except most of the stuff psychics tell people is just so inane and it's just so stupid.
		You know, if you burn a purple candle, you know, your career will go better.
		No, it doesn't have anything to do with burning purple candles.
		It has to do with you making an effort.
		I know that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The context of the question is that the person burning the purple candle does believe that.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		But wouldn't it be better?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I'd rather they go for somebody like a Tony Robbins who is at least telling them to set goals and some practical things rather than pure foo-foo stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But where's the harm?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And maybe I could even argue that it's a high enough percentage that there's a benefit.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, so, for example, somebody let's say is suffering loss, death, and grief.
		They've lost a child or some such thing.
		They go to a psychic.
		Are they really going to be able to deal better with grief by pretending that their loved one is not really dead, but is still alive on a different plane and if they believe that, if that's really important?
		Yeah, but I don't think so.
		I don't think that's the case.
		I don't think they're dealing with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe you don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if that person believes that, then they go away comforted.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Maybe for a while.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I don't know that that really has long-term healing effects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, probably not on you.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I see the point you're making.
		I'm just not comfortable recommending that somebody pretend something is real.
		I'm not even comfortable with doctors lying to patients.
		I mean, if there's some possibility that they may get better, then by all means, tell the patients that.
		But I'm not comfortable with doctors lying to patients.
		It's a form of deception, and deception has long-term consequences that are difficult to see in the short run.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then little Johnny with terminal cancer, you'd have the doctor go, listen, Johnny, your toast.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, there's more humane ways to handle it and deal with it.
		And cancers do go into remission.
		Doctors are never certain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, but what if a doctor believes that, and for good reason, I might add, maybe even verifiable reason, that a patient who believes that they will get better by a giant percentage will.
		And a patient who thinks they're going to die is damn well going to die.
		And if there's a difference in belief, then it's on the doctor's side.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I see your point.
		It's a good point.
		However, what about the patients who are told this by the doctors and they die anyway?
		So what are they supposed to think?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One thing they don't complain.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		They don't have any bad thoughts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They don't bitch about it.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, that I had bad thoughts, that the family members think, oh, we didn't pray hard enough, or we didn't think positive enough thoughts.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		It's our fault he died because the doctor said if we thought positive thoughts or if he thought positive thoughts, this cancer would go away and it didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, most of these diagnoses with terminal cancers, the patients die.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		We only hear about the miraculous recoveries because, well, they're so unusual.
		But in fact, most people that get these kinds of cancers, they just die.
		No matter what new therapies they're trying, whatever placebo effects, whatever positive thinking, none of it has any effect.
		They just die.
		We don't hear about them.
		But the family members who are told, well, you know, you should have done this or you should have done that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it works a little more on the margins, doctor.
		In other words, you're taking terminal cancer as your example.
		There's an awful lot more that's in between.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Clinical depression, headaches, things like that are more subjective, and there the placebo effect has a much stronger effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Liz and I, okay, I've got to take a break here.
		We are indeed at the top of the air.
		And when we come back, Dr. Michael Sherman's going to be all yours.
		He's a pretty bright guy, so you better come well-armed, I would suggest.
		from the high desert in the middle of the night, I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		We're a world on fire, no one can save me but you The street world is out, make foolish people I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I
		never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I
		never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I need somebody like you I never dreamed that I could be a good girl I never dreamed that I could be a good girl I never dreamed that I could be a good girl I never dreamed that I could be a good girl I never dreamed
		that I could be a good girl Wanna take a ride?
		To touch with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To touch with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll-free 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ARC by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		My guest is Dr. Michael Shermer, who's a compassionate skeptic.
		What is a compassionate skeptic?
		well somebody doesn't leave at all skeptical of everything but they watch their words a little bit when they talk to those who have faith you
		Once again, Dr. Michael Shermer, Dr. Shermer, are you at all skeptical of our government's claim to be able to take all of this horrid, horrid nuclear waste that we have and put it in a mountain about just not that many miles away from me called Yucca Mountain, and that the claim is that they can keep it safe for tens of thousands of years if they have to.
		Are you skeptical of that at all?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I haven't really investigated that at all.
		From what I've seen on some 60-minute pieces and so forth, it looks like it's a bigger problem than they thought it would be.
		I don't know.
		Leaving that to bureaucrats seems like a bad idea.
		I would put it out for bid in a marketplace of people that specialize in that sort of thing.
unidentified		And sort of let the best contractor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, you are a skeptical.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time, Color Line, you're on the air with Dr. Michael Shermer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		I'm a great fan.
		I wish you had a TV show.
		Dr. Shermer.
		Hey, I'm as big a skeptic as you are, and I agree with 99% of everything you said.
		And I even share your religious and political views to the extent that you express them.
		But now, some things are pretty hard to explain.
		For example, during one of the solar eclipses that was going to be visible 100% down in Mexico, astronomers, as you can imagine, and just amateur astronomers, professionals, and TV records, and TV cameras of high quality recorded a multiple sighting of UFOs that were physical.
		They reflected sunlight.
		There was shadow underneath them.
		It was thousands of witnesses and pictures from different angles observed the phenomenon.
		There were between, I don't know, 10 and 25 of them doing maneuvers that are just impossible by modern aircraft of any known kind.
		I mean, that might not be secret.
		Now, how do you, and in a related sighting, well, not a related sighting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you going with this?
		Are you wanting to ask him how can you ignore something so universally seen, photographed, and witnessed?
		Is that the question?
unidentified		Yeah, exactly.
unidentified		I mean, okay, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, let him answer this question.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a good question.
		I don't know about the one in particular that you're bringing up.
		I haven't heard of that one.
		But in general, it's a good question because a lot of these things are not just a planet Venus or a weather balloon or a visual hallucination or illusion or something like that.
		In fact, we have a very interesting UFO that flies over our house every New Year's Day morning at 8 a.m.
		It's the stealth B-2 bomber that flies from Edwards Air Force Base right over the Rose Parade, right down Colorado Boulevard and Pasadena, and then it circles around right over my house and does another flight down the boulevard.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I went to the Super Bowl.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They flew the B-2 right over.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		It's really an amazing thing to see.
		It is so unbelievable that if we didn't know about stealth technology, if it was out in the desert and it was kind of dusk and you weren't quite sure and you believed in UFOs and you saw that thing, you would definitely think it was some sort of UFO.
		I mean, it's really weird looking.
		It just looks like a black hole in the sky, triangular hole in the sky.
		It's pretty spooky.
		But we know what it is in that case.
		So what are the chances that the other things we don't quite know what they are represent aliens from another planet or just another form of type of stealth aircraft that we just don't know what's going on in our top secret government?
		You know, I mean, these things do happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think SETIA is a waste of money?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, I think it's I think it's a long shot that they'll succeed, a real long shot.
		However, it's so cheap to do compared to where else we spend our money.
		I think it's well worth the cost.
		In any case, it's not a government-funded thing anymore.
		It's all privately funded, so people can do whatever they want with their money.
		And if Paul Allen wants to fund that like he did the Spaceship One, I think it's terrific.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you be against government money being used as any part of that effort?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, as a libertarian, I tend to be against government programs.
		However, there's a lot of big science that can't be done without it.
		So, you know, I suppose I'd be in favor of it, but it would be a little bit inconsistent of me to do so.
		It's so cheap compared to, say, gee, the cost overrun on a single aircraft used for war.
		I mean, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence is such a worthwhile project.
		And success would be so spectacular.
		It would be wonderful if we had success in finding an extraterrestrial intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I certainly agree with that.
		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Michael Shermer.
		Hello.
		Hi, Art.
unidentified		Hi, Dr. Shermer.
		Yeah, I would like to propose an experiment.
		I'm sure both of you are familiar with the curse of the Bambino.
		Well, the socks got through tonight.
		I say the odds of them going on to win the series is astronomical.
		I'd like to propose one of Art's mass consciousness experiments.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
unidentified		No, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any?
		Well, no.
		The answer is no.
		I'm not doing them for, you know, I have a serious talk with you about that maybe.
		But in the meantime, call her no.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No dice.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		The Yankees are evil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good Trump.
unidentified		The Yankees are evil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Goodbye.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Pinebreader doesn't deserve another pencil.
		I like it.
		I like this guy.
unidentified		He's a good guy, but...
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Let's root for the dock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Dr. Shermer.
unidentified		Oh, good morning, Mr. Art Bill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, also.
unidentified		This is Tony.
		I'm calling just outside of Statesville, North Carolina.
		I'm a truck driver.
		Okay.
		I don't have any PhDs or NDs or anything, but I wanted to ask the fine doctor if he can explain the origin of the Big Bang as far as who did it, what did it, and how it was done if he doesn't believe in God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's, yeah, okay, fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Big Bang is indeed a mystery, a big mystery, Dr. Shermer, that all of this that we know of, apparently, according to science, came from something smaller than a quark.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a great question.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		You certainly don't need a PhD to ask what came before the first beginning and what created the first cause and so on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was a question.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Of course, you could ask that about God.
		Who created God?
		What came before God?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you don't believe in God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Theologians are not.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		hold on no this isn't there i mean you're shifting it out of the realm of after all materially this We have some explanations of what might have triggered the Big Bang.
		One explanation is a collapsed star, a collapsed black hole, in another universe.
		That could have been the trigger.
		There might be multiple universes.
		I know you know about this because you've had guests on your show talking about this.
		I do.
		Multiple bubble universes.
		Our universe is just one of many universes, perhaps an infinite number of universes.
		And any universe that has the kinds of laws of nature that we have that create atoms, which lead to the creation of stars, which leads to stars to collapse into black holes, which might create other universes, are more likely to survive.
		That is, they're more likely to launch other universes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you really are buying into all these possibilities.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I think it's very possible, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then why be in denial then about interaction between them, which is perhaps what we're talking about in so many of these areas?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's slightly different.
		Those are like parallel universes or quantum, sort of Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics where all possible choices are real.
		That's a slightly different model than the one I just described.
		But that's also possible.
		I definitely don't deny that.
		It's entirely possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		it might be the answer to an awful lot of what we observe is simply not possible.
		I mean, if we're observing...
		Uh-huh.
		Yes, well, that's where science and metaphysical may go and get married.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, when the individual photons go through the slit in the double-slit experiment and they appear to interact with other photons that aren't really, they don't seem to be there in our universe.
		Yeah, maybe they're there in some other universe.
		That's possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Shermer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		You are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		Turn your radio off, please.
		Off, off, off.
unidentified		Okay, that's off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Listen, I wanted to bring the NDE subject up to us.
		There's a Dr. Elizabeth Kubla-Ross that did a study of about 20,000 patients who went through that.
		And one of the things that popped out to me was that people who are blind from birth, blind from birth, when they had an NDE, could see and describe down to the detail of colors of a shirt, jewelry, facial expressions, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I interviewed such a person just a couple of weeks ago.
		So, fine, Dr. Shermer, let's talk about it.
		Let's talk about near-death.
		The thousands of people have come back and they've been interviewed and they've related so many similar things.
		The evidence is beginning to be very large.
		It's sort of a mountain of anecdotal evidence that does add up to something.
		What do you say?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, real effect.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		There's definitely something going on with out-of-body and near-death experiences.
unidentified		Oh?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		The question is, what?
		Do these things represent something out there or inside our heads?
		And I think it's an inside-the-head phenomenon.
		I think it's a kind of experience that has to do with oxygen deprivation to the brain, shock and trauma, the kind of thing that happens in surgeries, near drownings, car accidents, heart attacks, that sort of thing that people experience.
		Part of the problem is we don't have a full, really satisfactory explanation for it.
		We have some ideas, the oxygen deprivation as being one.
		But because we don't really quite understand what consciousness is, we're not going to know what an altered state of it is, whether it's a hypnotic state or near-death experience or out-of-body experience.
		This is one of those areas where there's still some mystery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'll say.
		I'm glad to hear you say that.
		There are things that you find mystifying about.
		And well, what about the commonality of the experiences?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I mean, because our brains are all structured in the same way.
		They operate in the same neurotransmitter substances.
		They all have synapses, and the neurons talk to each other the same way.
		So, of course, we're going to have common experiences.
		You would expect that.
		And culture determines these things in large part.
		I mean, you know, I think the whole alien abduction experience, the whole phenomenon, is a cultural experience.
		It has to do with the fact that we live in the age of science and science fiction and space exploration.
		And people 500 years ago, they had similar experiences, but they were describing demons, incubi and succubi, because they lived in a demon-hunted world.
		We live in an alien-hunted world.
		The brain phenomenon is all the same.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All bad dreams?
unidentified		Yeah.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		And the culture tells you how to interpret those dreams.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		The culture tells you what the iconography of the dreams are supposed to mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you don't think there's anything to any abduction?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Well, I think there's something to it.
		I think it's fascinating.
		It's all get out that people are having these experiences.
		But I don't think they're any different than the demon-haunted experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I've interviewed people like Travis Walton.
		You probably know that case.
		Remarkable.
		And I interviewed Travis' boss, and there were others who, you know, they all saw this happen.
		They've taken lie detector tests.
		The story is pretty detailed, very specific, and backed up by everybody who was there.
		Do you look into that?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I don't know that much about the Walton case.
		I mean, I saw the movie, and I read a few bits and pieces about it.
		You know, I'm skeptical of the lie detector test also.
		People can, it's really easy to beat the lie detector test.
		And if you really believe your story, then you're going to, of course you're going to pass it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, those people would, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But to cheat, I've had experts on lie detection on the show, too, and they say, no, no, no, it's not easy to beat it unless you actually believe your lie.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, it's actually easy to beat it with a system.
		I did a show on how to beat the lie detector test once, and we brought in this ex-cop who makes his living giving courses mainly for defense attorneys and their clients on how to beat it.
		It's really easy to beat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it now?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I probably shouldn't give you the technique over there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, why not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd love to know.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, what you do is you spike the readings on the normal questions.
		You know, is your name art?
		Do you live in Nevada?
		You know, those kinds of questions, such that there's no difference between the normal questions, the norming questions versus the questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how, and what method do you use to spike it?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, the easiest, simplest way to spike, particularly the blood pressure.
		The blood pressure one is the most sensitive one.
		You can spike it.
		And you can spike it by squeezing your sphincter muscle when you give the answer to the normal question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll be damned.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		And that's what I said.
		When this guy told me, I said, oh, come on, there's no way I'm going to be able to do this.
		And I tried it, and I could spike my blood pressure by like 60 points in a matter of seconds just by squeezing your sphincter muscle while you give the answer.
		It's the most unbelievable thing.
		But it's absolutely true.
		The lie detector test is not a reliable thing.
		It should not be used in court.
		Well, it isn't allowed to be used in court.
		And it shouldn't be because it's not reliable, and it's easy to beat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've heard some things on this program that would definitely spike your sphincter.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Shermer.
		Hello.
		Hello?
		Going once, going twice, gone.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Shermer.
		Hello.
		Hello there.
		Do we have a human or not?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Proceed.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got that part out of the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yes, I got a question for the doctor.
		Good.
		What does he believe about John Edwards and the type of where he can contact the dad?
		I was kind of a skeptic about it for the longest time until my mom actually went to a reading.
		And at the end of the show, my mom did not have anything with her about what he was going to tell her.
		And all of a sudden, he said, do you saw the flag from your grandpa's funeral?
		And there's no way he would have known that or anything.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Okay, look, that's a great question.
		It's very specific.
		There's several techniques at work.
		And first of all, as I mentioned earlier, anybody can talk to the dead.
		It's getting them to talk back.
		That's the hard part.
		And one of the techniques that they use to make it seem like they're doing that is called a cold reading technique and warm reading technique, cold reading technique.
		You literally read somebody cold you've never met, throw out lots and lots and lots and lots of comments and questions.
		Hundreds of them in a one-hour reading, dozens in a two-minute reading, and you see what sticks.
		And oftentimes you'll get one or two of these kinds of specific things.
		I wrote an article about this, How to Be a Psychic for a Day.
		On our webpage, we have the techniques and the kinds of statements that you just made.
		There's hundreds of those that work really well with people, like the watch.
		He's telling me something about the watch.
		Turns out most people keep most men keep their dad's watch.
		Women jewelry, the flag at the funeral.
		That's a common one.
		There's a whole list of these things that are true for general psychic readings.
		Like I'm getting something about a scar on your left knee.
		Do you have a box of photos in your cupboard you've been meaning to put in a photo album?
		If it's a woman, you have an earring that you've lost the pair to, but you're hanging on to it in case you find it.
		Dozens of things like that that are very successful.
		Not for everyone every time, but if you rattle off a couple dozen of those, you'll get three or four very specific, really weird hits, such that people like the caller will say, wow, it's incredible.
		I can't explain how he got X. Well, that's how you explain it, that they throw out a lot of things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So from your point of view, nothing but frauds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A psychologically well-armed fraud.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		It's an act.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is all an act.
		Yep.
		There's nobody communicating.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
		Absolutely not.
		To me, there's no gray area in this one at all.
		It's pure fraud.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is the what's the harm question, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I mean, what's the harm of lying to people?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the harm of cheating is fraud.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		What's the harm of bank scams?
		Well, because it's a scam.
		It's wrong.
		It's immoral.
		It cheats people out of their money and their well-being and so on.
		It's wrong.
		Even if it's lying and fraudulently deceiving people out of their money is wrong.
		I don't care what the good benefits of it might be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Technically and legally, you're correct.
		I'm not sure that you're morally correct.
		I'm not sure you're morally correct.
		I mean, if you are the other two, I'm not sure you're morally straight on there at all.
		To comfort somebody who has lost a loved one may be a life continuing act.
		Maybe.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Good morning.
		You're listening to Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Abumba.
		If you're listening to Coast AM, you're listening to Coast AM.
		Abumba.
		Can you hear my heartbeat in this song?
		Abumba.
		Do you know that behind all...
		...and you're listening to Coast AM.
		Riders of the dog Riders of the Stone Into the Duck with Bone Into the Squirrel Dog Like a dog without a bone.
		It's back to the bone.
		Riders on the stone.
		It's a killer of the road.
		His brain is swerving like a toad Take a long holiday Let your children play If you give this man a ride, sweet family, he will die Killer on the road To talk with Art Bell.
		Call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
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		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Man, to believe in nothing or to be in doubt about everything in life, even the existence of our immortal soul and God and everything, that's a strange place to be, but it is the one that my guest is in,
		doctor michael shirmer and he's all yours more in a moment so Once again, Dr. Michael Shermer, you know, I said it during the break, Doctor.
		You know, to believe in nothing, literally, to be in doubt about virtually everything must be a very bleak, cooled existence, isn't it?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, I don't.
		That's not me.
		I believe all sorts of things.
		I just try to base my beliefs on some sort of reason, rationality, science, or whatever.
		But scientists believe all kinds of things.
		What do you ever believe is anything but bleak?
unidentified		In fact, it's incredibly optimistic with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you have faith in?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Faith is not the word I like to use.
		I have confidence in certain things.
		Like the theory of evolution, for example.
		I have a high degree of confidence in that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Because the evidence is so overwhelming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But isn't there this missing link there?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No, there are so many missing links.
		It's an embarrassment of riches.
		It's quite incredible how many transitional fossils we have now.
		Much better than it used to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Better, but not completely.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		The theory is so well supported.
		Not just the fossil evidence, but particularly the genetics now.
		The genetics is so detailed and so good that you can definitely see the lineage all the way back.
		It's very impressive.
		And this is one of the best arguments against the alien stories that we hear.
		They look hominid.
		They're not going to be hominid.
		They're not going to look like us.
		They're not going to look like primates.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But doesn't the mere fact Of our existence alone, our existence, the fact that we evolved, however, it happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't that a good case for life being elsewhere?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		There's a good case, I think, for bacterial-grade life being elsewhere.
		I think it's easy to get from nothing to something.
		I think it's much harder to get from something to us because of so many more steps between bacteria to big brains.
		I mean, you can get all the way up to Neanderthals and still have no I mean, is it a miracle?
		It's pretty damn unlikely to happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you say miracle?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		It's a miracle if we define a miracle as, say, million-to-one odds.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		But if you have enough places to try it, it will happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But here is where it happened.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but wherever it happened, the people who it happened to are going to think, like the lotto winner, wow, what are the odds that I won?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you think we're lotto winners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's why we're here.
unidentified		Yeah.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		There's just enough planets out there.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		There's so many planets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know I know.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		That's why I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In my email, they keep telling me I'm a lotto winner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it must be, huh?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, or don't give us your last name.
		Only your first name.
		That's one rule.
unidentified		Okay, so you're this is Tony, and I'm calling from the island of Kauai, Hawaii.
		Gotcha.
		And I have had numerous experiences since 1985 that I cannot explain.
		And it's caused me to actually read and study and try to understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of experience?
unidentified		One of the experiences was it's completely drug-free.
		My body started billowing with smoke.
		Thank God the person I was partnering with at that time was in bed with me, and I woke him up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you telling me you began to ignite?
unidentified		Not ignite.
		It was smoke was coming off my body.
		It was not cold.
		This is in Southern California.
		Where there is smoke, there is, I know.
		And what I actually, and he witnessed it as well.
		And when it started happening, I then began to do some research and wondering what was I keen off that I could actually see this?
		Is this something that actually exists that we don't really have the eyes to see?
		I've asked a lot of questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another situation that happened No, let's stay with that one for a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever get a picture of yourself smoking?
unidentified		No, because it was a one-time event.
		It never happened again.
		And like I said, it was drug-free.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then I know what Dr. Shermer is going to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But go ahead, Dr. Shermer.
unidentified		Say it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Say it.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Your psychic power is telling you.
		Well, I don't know, because I wasn't there.
		I mean, it's a one-time event.
		Those things are hard to explain.
		I guess what you're describing is something like spontaneous human combustion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounded like it.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Usually, you know, there's something, some explanation.
		The person's a smoker and they fell asleep in bed smoking, something like that.
		So that's a possibility.
		Maybe the guy she was with was a smoker.
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe he said her own time.
		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on there with Dr. Michael Shermer.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		This is Jean calling from Sacramento.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Gene.
unidentified		Hi.
		I have a question for the guest about spiritualism.
		This is a religion that bases all their beliefs on scientific proof.
		And it's been in existence since the 1800s.
		I just wondered if he's familiar with that and what he thinks about that.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Do you mean like the Theosophical Society and Anthropology?
unidentified		No, I mean the National Spiritualist Association of Churches.
		And one of their principles is they affirm the existence and personal identity of individuals after they die.
		And they also affirm that communication is possible through mediumship.
		And there are...
		And there's physical phenomena.
		In fact, the religion strikes me, I've just been learning about it.
		It strikes me as a religion of skeptics because they're searching for, continually searching for proof and evidence.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yep, that's good.
		However, I think the evidence for an afterlife and talking to the dead is very poor.
		Unfortunately, it would be nice if it were real.
		Love to believe in an afterlife.
		It'd be nice, but I just don't see it.
unidentified		Well, I'm just wondering, you sound more like a spoiler than a skeptic at this point.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		It's the particular subjects we're dealing with here.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of room for skepticism, I guess you could say.
unidentified		Well, I suppose.
unidentified		It just seems that there seems to be a lot of people.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I wish it was clear.
		The evidence for God, for the afterlife, it's always this kind of fuzzy game that people have to play, like the mediums.
		They played this game in question and answers.
unidentified		Well, in my experience with the spiritualist mediums that I have seen, who have not known me, by the way, at all, there were no questions.
		They spoke with utter certainty.
		And the things were very specific and nothing common like you're describing.
		An example I'll give you is the first words with one reading was lemurs, which are, you know, little monkeys?
		Monkeys.
		And that had a meaning.
		They had no idea what that meant to me.
		And how they would.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		And what did that mean to you?
unidentified		Well, it has to do with a friend whose nephew had passed away, and he was very fond of lemurs.
unidentified		And so what she was bringing was a communication that was the symbolism that he was there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is pretty obscure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you would say, Doctor, what?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, you're finding the meaning in the word.
		The psychic's not telling you what that meaning is.
		So you will see them say things like, red dress.
		I don't know what it means.
		What does it mean?
		And the person will then sit there and think for a minute and say, oh, I know that my beloved, before they passed over, they bought a red dress for my sister, or something like that.
		So it's not the psychic telling the person getting the reading what the meaning is, it's the person getting the reading telling the psychic what it is.
		It's really a psychodrama where the person getting the reading, they're the ones really doing the reading, not the psychic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would like to ask you to look inward a little bit, if you're able to do that, into the world of skeptics that you inhabit.
		Those who follow your very skeptical leadership.
		Listen, I've interviewed a lot of them, and I must say it is not true of you, but most of the skeptics that I've interviewed are actually manic about it.
		And I wonder if you've noticed that trait in those that follow you, that there are many who are just they actually do their cause more harm because they're so manic about it.
		You're not like that.
		I wonder if you acknowledge that within your group of believers.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, of course.
		All social movements have extremists on all ends.
		And, you know, born-again evangelical Christians, most of them are very thoughtful, nice people, and they're embarrassed by the abortion clinic bombers and extremists like that.
		Most thoughtful Muslims are embarrassed by the extreme fundamentalists who have a lot of extra buildings.
		Every movement has that because we're human.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you acknowledge it and you equate it to that level of embarrassment.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it can.
		Well, okay.
		Skeptics don't fly planes into buildings.
		Religion does that probably better than anybody else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, okay.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		But it's really, again, skepticism is not a thing.
		It's not a noun.
		It's a verb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just science.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Think of it as science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a way of living.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Michael Shermer.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dr. Shermer.
unidentified		Hi.
		Listen, you brought this up before about photons and through the slit.
		So I have a scientific question for you.
		What is your experience or have you heard about the recent scientific advancements in the lines of biophotons and how that relates to the light body?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I don't know anything about that.
unidentified		The light body of human beings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you don't know anything about biophotons, so neither do I, for that matter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what are they?
unidentified		What are biophotons?
		Right.
		Biophotons, the science behind it is that it comes from your DNA and it's like an antenna emitting and receiving photons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're back to quantum.
unidentified		Well, he mentioned photons through the slit and that it might be crossing dimensions or universes.
unidentified		I was just wondering if he was aware of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he is.
		He is, and we talked about it, and he admitted, what?
		How far can we go here?
		That there seemed to be some mysteries involved in it?
		Was that it?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I guess.
		I don't know anything about biophotons.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Michael Shermer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, hi, Art.
unidentified		Thanks for having me on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I'd like to ask a question concerning psychology.
unidentified		Considering the subjective philosophy behind the roots of it, is there any skepticism concerning his own profession?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a great question.
		Should we be skeptical of the skeptics?
		Yep, you should be, absolutely.
		I mean, one of the beauties of science is that it has this built-in self-correcting machinery in which if you're not skeptical of your own claims, somebody else will be.
		In fact, they'll get bonus points for finding out where you went wrong.
		That's part of the system, and it's a pretty brutal, harsh system, the whole peer-review system, where somebody's going to look for, specifically try to find where you screwed up and where you went wrong.
		That's the harsh part of science, but it's also its greatest strength.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Shermer, do you think you were born a skeptic, or do you think that your environment made you a skeptic?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I think more environment.
unidentified		Really?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Just exposure to a driving curiosity myself, and then exposure to a lot of fraud and nonsense that I personally experienced, just trying all kinds of wacky things just to see what works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there any moment when you had an epiphany and you just said suddenly, my God, I'm a skeptic?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Really more, my God, I'm a scientist, or I want to take a scientific perspective.
		And it wasn't a moment.
		It was a lot of moments.
		Really in graduate school, I was taking a course on evolutionary theory that met Tuesday nights from 7 to 10.
		And then the class adjourned after that and went to the local bar where we sat and had adult beverages and talked about the Big Bang and God and religion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's where you meet your life.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		And that's where it happens, really over a six-month period.
unidentified		Also, I'd like to ask another question concerning intuition.
		You keep talking about psychics and mediums and that type of thing.
		It would be totally subjective to assume any attribute within the human design, but why discount intuition altogether and support intellect so strongly?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Intuition is important.
		Actually, there's a lot of really interesting research on intuition.
		Turns out on many things, we're very intuitive.
		We're very accurate with our intuitions in that particularly social relations, the ability to read emotions in people's faces, the sense of a situation being dangerous, that there's something wrong, the sense you have about another person's integrity, the quality of their character.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's even studies, Doctor, that people can tell when they're being stared at.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You heard about that?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's slightly different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it isn't.
		It's an intuitive response.
		Yeah.
		So what do you think is going on there?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		You mean with the stared-at stuff?
unidentified		Yeah.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Or you mean intuition?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or anything like that?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Okay, here's what I think is going on with intuition in general, is that we evolved in a social environment as well as a physical environment.
		And it was really important for our ancestors to be able to read social situations, be able to judge other people quickly, be able to assess relationships between people.
		That's equally as powerful a part of our evolutionary history as is other things.
		The physical environment, for example.
		So I think we've developed good skills, intuitive skills at that sort of thing.
		And I think some people are better at it than others.
		So when we talk about women having more intuitive power than men, something like that, I don't think it's a secret, mysterious, paranormal power.
		I think it's just being tuned into your social environment, and women tend to be more tuned into the social environment than men are.
		And so, yeah, I think there's something to intuition there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, when you die, are you hoping you'll be surprised?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
		Absolutely.
		I think it'd be terrific.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		No one's ever asked me that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm hoping I'll be surprised.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a good way to put it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trying to peel back the layers.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm hoping to be surprised.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Michael Shermer.
		Hello.
unidentified		Oh, yes, this is Jeff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Jeff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't have a lot of time.
unidentified		Okay.
		Dr. Schimmer, I was just, this is kind of a broad question for you, but on the aspects of mental illness and how, you know, the people go through psychotic stages hearing voices, and, you know, they are a danger.
		Okay, they get locked up, they get on medication, and generally they're dealt with in a way, you know, that just seems like, okay, you're mentally ill, you're touched.
		And it sounds like that's what some of the stuff is in the Bible and stuff like, you know, people always say they talked to a spirit or they heard voices and, you know, stuff like that.
		And I was just wondering your thoughts about is there really cure in the, I'm not telling people to get off their meds or anything, but I'm saying, do you think there's a real cure for mental illness?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		I think in the long run, there will be.
		It's a very difficult problem.
		The meds are getting better.
		I think just doping people up is, you know, is not great, but leaving them homeless on the street is also not great.
		As the drugs get better, they'll be able to be targeted for more specific things.
		And this is true for all diseases.
		Targeted drugs for cancers and tumors.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to plug your book because we're at the end of the show, out of time and all that.
		It's The Science of Good and Evil, Why People Cheat, Gossip, Share, and Care, and follow the Golden Rule.
		Why should people buy this?
		Is it a good book?
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're asking the author, yeah.
		It's the third of my trilogy, Why People Believe Word Things was about science and pseudoscience, How We Believe was about science and religion, and the science of good and evil is about the science of morality.
		So, you know, it's all sort of a package of trying to set up a scientific worldview and live a life that is based on reason and science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the book will take you through all that.
		All right, listen.
		Thank you so much, Doctor.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for having me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolute pleasure.
michael shermer ▲ ● ▼		My pleasure, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's a lot of fun to interview.
		Take care.
		That's Dr. Michael Shermer, and that is the weekend.
		Boy, they go quickly.
		I'm Art Bell, and here's Crystal Gale.
		That's her last name.
		She's the one with just the right words to get us out of here.
		Listen carefully.
unidentified		Shooting stars across the sky.
		This magical journey will take this dawn around.
		Filled with the longing, searching for the truth.
		We make it to tomorrow with the sun to shine on you.
		Good night in the desert.

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