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May 9, 2004 - Art Bell

02:52:31

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Budd Hopkins - Abduction Enigmas

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59:50

budd hopkins

01:06:49

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layne staley [aic]

00:47

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To be sharing my Sunday Monday with you.
		It's gonna be quite a Monday for us here in the desert.
		Talk about that in a moment.
		On my webcam, this night?
		While many people think you can't grow stuff in the desert, let me show you my wife's argument.
		We grow cheap artichokes.
		And all of them she grow artichokes.
		That was taken, though.
		That photograph was taken late this afternoon in Ramona's artichoke match.
		Boy, are those good.
		Really good.
		Well, having tuned in Shortwave Radio a little early, in fact, minutes ago, really, the static levels on shortwave tonight are absolutely incredible.
		Just incredible.
		They're awful.
		And I looked at the lightning map, and sure as heck, I heard that static side.
		I thought somebody's really getting rolled over by hell right now.
		And sure enough, they are.
		In fact, here's Rick in Winona, Minnesota, who said, hey, Art, we just went through a thunderstorm, likes of which I've never seen in my 53 years.
		There was lightning at two to five times a second, peals of thunder that were constant for 50 minutes with torrential rains the whole time.
		Never seen anything like that before.
		Well, there's going to be more and more of that, I am afraid.
		Bigger storms, and certainly this spring we have seen supercells, just incredible supercells in cycles of days over the central U.S. Okay, the world news.
		Tonight I've got a little time to spend with you, and I guess I need to say something about this finally, huh?
		Baghdad, stung by a worldwide outcry, the U.S. military on Sunday announced the first court-martial in the prisoner abuse allegations ordering a reservist to face a public trial in Baghdad.
		That'll be May 19th.
		Specialist Jeremy Sivets of Heinemann, Pennsylvania, member of the 372nd Military Police Company, is going to face military court less than a month after photos of prisoners being abused and humiliated were first broadcast April 28th.
		And this from London.
		Prime Minister Tony Blair apologized Sunday for any abuses that might have been committed by British soldiers in Iraq and said those responsible would be punished as the government acknowledged it had known for months about claims that its troops abused Iraqi prisoners.
		Lawmakers called for the publication of an international committee of the Red Cross report detailing many of those allegations.
		Human rights groups, Amnesty International, said it told British officials about reports of violence and torture a year ago.
		And the big promise now is after the president has had the worst week of his presidency, there's more to come.
		And it's not going to be what we've seen so far.
		It's going to be far worse is the rumor.
		Now, of course, if it becomes far worse, then it becomes something else again, doesn't it?
		But you know, for those of you that go back with me long enough, you know I was very much one of the lone voices against the war before we went to Iraq.
		I didn't see the entrance strategy and I don't see the exit strategy and I didn't then and I don't now.
		I questioned the whole weapons of mass destruction thing then, as I do now.
		However, I am nothing if not a practical, realistic, cynical kind of guy.
		And the fact of the matter is we are now there.
		And we are fighting for our lives.
		Whether you agree with the fact that we ought to be there or not, the fact is that we are there and we are fighting for our lives and losing many of them, young men and women, ours.
		And this whole thing that's blown up.
		It seems to me there's incompetence involved here.
		And I really mean incompetence.
		I mean, what in the hell were cameras doing inside a prison in the first place?
		I was in the military in the Air Force, and what the hell would they have cameras for?
		And if they did have cameras, then how could the military police, and heavens knows, our intelligence agencies with whatever presence they have there, and they do have presence there after all, CIA, NSA, but just all kinds of people are there, I'm sure.
		FBI is probably there.
		Everybody.
		All the agencies are there, I'm sure.
		How would they let these pictures get out?
		What kind of incompetent behavior is that?
		Now, that's not to say that I'll tell you something interesting.
		We have a radio station here in Perump, as you know, or maybe you don't, but Ramona and I own one here.
		It's K-N-Y-E-F-M and Perump.
		And we do a talk show every week or every other week.
		And the question we asked on This last one was: when, if ever, do you believe that torture is justified?
		And the answers through 30 or 40 calls, whatever we took in a couple hours, was quite remarkable.
		A good 90% of those responding thought that it was justified, frankly.
		It was justified.
		And, you know, what we have seen thus far, now there may be much worse to come, I don't know, but photographs of prisoners chained to the bars or to their bed or women's panties over their head or whatever.
		I really don't know what the methods of softening people up and extracting information from them would be.
		But, you know, frankly, information saves lives.
		And if they were able to obtain information from those prisoners that would save American lives, then probably in the hardcore real world, there are some things that are justified in doing.
	These people are trying to kill us.
	Dead, dead, dead.
	Kill us dead.
	So, you know, just incompetent.
	To even let cameras in prisons, to let these kinds of photographs get out.
	Incompetent all the way around.
	Somebody needs to tighten something up out there.
	We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As far as Iraq goes, we're there now.
		We've got to figure out a way to win.
		No more ducking with our tails between our legs and heading home.
		We're there now and can't walk away.
		So we've got to figure out how to win.
		That's what we have to do.
		My wife just handed me this.
		Such a hot potato.
		This one is scientists warm to climate flick despite bad science.
		Well, their opinion, bad science, maybe.
		Maybe bad science to have to cram it in to a two-hour movie, but I mean, that's, you know, that's what you've got to do, right?
		It's the day after tomorrow.
		Once again, another story from Los Angeles Associated Press.
		A superstorm envelops the globe, sending tornadoes skittering through Los Angeles, pounding Tokyo with hail the size of grapefruits, and burying New Delhi in snow.
		Yes.
		Well, doesn't look too good for Europe either.
		You know, I told you, you mark my words on this.
		You mark my words.
		If you saw 10.5, that's a literal picnic in the Sunday Park compared to what's going to be in the day after tomorrow.
		Last night, this broke during the show.
		A lot of things have a habit of breaking during the show.
		Headline, Ocean Change Led to Dust Bowl.
		The conclusion of scientists now, after more than 70 years of looking at what happened in the middle of our country by NASA, is that ocean temperatures changed just a few degrees and produced that Dust Bowl in the middle of the United States that destroyed so many lives.
		Just a very few degrees, a very tiny change in ocean temperatures they've now figured out led to the Dust Bowl.
		And eventually they're going to figure out a lot more.
		Still no news or confirmation or denial of a radio signal on 1420 megahertz.
		No return call this day from SETI, but I suppose they'll be up there to look.
		Anyway, look, what we're going to do is open lines, so if you've got something...
		The Snuffed Candle Award is my idea of a real honor.
		So congratulations, Larry.
		It's given for encouraging credulity, presenting pseudoscience as genuine, and contributing to the public's lack of understanding of the methods of scientific inquiry.
		I received one, too.
		When did I get mine?
		It was way back on, let me see, November 13th, 1998, and I have it proudly still on the wall where I told you I would put it.
		It's actually quite nice, the snuffed candle award.
		When you win that, you know people are listening, and when that group of stuffed skeptics gives it out, you know you've made the big time.
		Wildcard line, you are on the air.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Good evening.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm quite well, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And yourself?
unidentified		Fine, thank you.
		I'm calling Art David.
		How are we at Los Angeles, KFI?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Am I on the air?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you're not, we're in trouble, the both of us.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		During December, you mentioned about the HARP is shooting full power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were headed toward full power, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was an article about that, yes.
unidentified		And then during that time, I'm from Iran and I'm an American citizen now.
		During that time, we hear the earthquake in BAM.
		You remember that, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember an earthquake.
		Yes.
		Are you trying to connect them?
unidentified		Later on, I came across the article on the Internet which talks about, I'm not relating it to HAARP, but this article, it is relating it, that there is a device that creates earthquake, which is related to HAAA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe there was something maybe it was an article related to some very early work done by Tesla or something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He claimed the ability, I think, at one point to create earthquakes.
unidentified		Exactly, yeah.
		It does relate to Tesla, too.
		Also, Kobe earthquake was not a natural event either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, that will hold it there.
		You know, to start to move from, well, maybe Tesla was onto something about earthquakes to the Kobe quake wasn't natural, this quake, that quake wasn't natural.
		We don't know that.
		We certainly don't know that.
		And my guess is that it was natural.
		And my guess is also that we can no more create than we can stop earthquakes, despite the rosy outcome of 10.5.
		I don't think we have any control at all over the moving of plates, the large plates that are below us, that we walk tenderly upon the surface of.
		No, I don't think we can control those at all.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		All right, Ty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I'm not going to say my name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
unidentified		Well, because you're not going to like what I'm going to have to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so.
unidentified		Okay, all right.
unidentified		My name's Bruce.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bruce.
unidentified		5TB4.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Bruce.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		You've heard the expression, throwing good money after bad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've heard that.
unidentified		Yeah, you're throwing a lot of money after bad money in Iraq.
unidentified		And I am so glad those pictures came out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you?
unidentified		Yeah, because now everybody can see that the United States is just as much of a badass as any other country out there in the world.
		You're just a bunch of badass.
		No, no, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're not as much of a badass.
unidentified		Okay, you're the Corleone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
unidentified		You're the barzee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, wait a minute.
		Wait a minute.
		We're a badass.
		I agree with you.
		And to think that we don't do things that other nations do in war is wrong because we do do them, sir.
		But are we as much of a badass?
		No.
		We're as big a badass as Saddam was, not by a long shot.
unidentified		Yeah, we have a lot more power than Saddam ever had.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think you would have seen a scandal?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, in all the years, my friend, that Saddam tortured people, how many newspapers and magazines and press or broadcast of any kind whatsoever covered one minute of it?
unidentified		Well, everybody in the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what would your answer be to that?
unidentified		Certainly not very many publications or news outlets covered it in the United States because they didn't want to.
unidentified		Bologna.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bologna, it's being covered all over the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's happening?
unidentified		During the Reagan era when you were only too happy to get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the matter with you?
		Stick to the Bush era.
		We're talking about this problem right now.
unidentified		Yes, but it needs an historical context now, doesn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it doesn't need anything going back to the Reagan administration.
unidentified		No, you need to go back like that.
unidentified		You can go back there, but you do by yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to talk about this?
		Let's talk about it.
		Look, we're badasses here.
		I wouldn't pretend any different, but we're not as bad.
		We're not the Hitler of the world.
		We're not the Saddam Hussein of the world.
		The United States is a cut-above.
		That's why you're seeing this scandal unfold right now.
		Because we are a cut-above.
		It couldn't unfold anywhere else.
		You couldn't have this scandal unfolding anywhere else.
		It'd simply be a bunch of dead people, that's all.
		There wouldn't be any story.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going once.
		Going twice.
		Gone.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Ron, and Methodist listening to you on 600 REC.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I served in the Army for about three years.
unidentified		Most of it was spent in Germany over in Mannheim and Heidelberg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And, you know, we were given these pamphlets on how to, if the situation ever occurred, how to treat prisoners if, at that time, if war ever broke out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And according to those rules, you had to treat the prisoners with at least humane conditions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And that goes as far as the Geneva Conventions are concerned and the Red Cross.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure it was more or less written as a result of the Geneva Convention accords.
unidentified		And I have no idea who on the ground level there was responsible, but that's the craziest thing I've ever seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's incompetence across the board that this would have happened, period.
unidentified		And I'm starting to wonder now, here we are trying to keep from what happened with Saddam's regime, and it looks like the same thing happening on camera.
		You would think that they would treat prisoners a little better than that.
		And I understand, I guess there's some more photos coming out or already out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what they're saying.
unidentified		Good Lord, it just gives a black eye to the military.
unidentified		The whole country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And hopefully.
		But understand clearly what I'm saying.
		I'm saying that the real tragedy so far, with what I've seen, is that these pictures got out at all.
		The incompetence displayed is incredible.
		I mean, you've got the CIA and everybody else in the world over there.
		You've got military police everywhere.
		And how in the hell could they let people take posed photographs like that?
		Goodness.
unidentified		That is just crazy.
		And I would think that the Arab world, I can understand their frustrations.
		They always say in the military, it's raise that 1 or 2% to screw everything up for everybody.
		Hopefully this can be rectified later on.
		I guess somebody at the White House will have to do something.
		And I don't know what at this point, but I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I heard that the president was going to give them money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought, oh, my God, he's going to compensate them.
unidentified		That's just, I don't know how that's going to work.
		The logical thing would be to be, I guess, more tolerance of some of their lifestyles, I guess.
		I'm not sure.
		This is, you know, because when I was stationed in Germany, this was before the wall came down about four months.
		And we had Czech people that were coming over from the border.
		We had to treat them, give them sea sessions.
		We had to treat them well, the German government treated them well.
		And these people were just coming across from a socialist country and had nothing, driving across the border in traffic.
		With all their belongings, we had to treat them like any other human being, if not better.
		I just don't know what's going to happen with that.
		That's really it's going to spiral out of control eventually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the whole thing has the potential to spiral out of control in more ways than one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How we've arrived at where we are today, I don't know.
unidentified		That's just there's I don't know.
		It just seems like a widening gap that if somebody doesn't put a stop to something somewhere, or at least that's just a messy situation, hopefully to be corrected by, and I know this is an election year, but somebody in that Bush White House needs to figure out something how to get out of it.
		That's the toughest thing besides trying to win that war.
		the war.
		Yeah!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is this From the high desert in the middle of the night, on the eve of 50 mile-an-hour winds that are forecast to speak their way across the area where I live later today, tomorrow, our time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Absolutely not.
		Listen to me.
		I despise.
		Costing me is the structure of this life.
layne staley [aic] ▲ ● ▼		Wore me his tears.
unidentified		Ten thousand of mothers left.
		When their sons go up to fight and lose their lives.
		I said war.
layne staley [aic] ▲ ● ▼		Good God, y'all.
layne staley [aic] ▲ ● ▼		My life at all in the moon I hold you dear surrender.
unidentified		Oh yeah.
layne staley [aic] ▲ ● ▼		And I have met my destiny in quite a similar way.
unidentified		A mystery book of the show.
layne staley [aic] ▲ ● ▼		This song is repeating itself.
		For you.
		I'll defeat you all the more.
		Waterloo.
		Promise to love you forevermore.
unidentified		Waterloo.
unidentified		Goodness gave me what I want to do.
layne staley [aic] ▲ ● ▼		Waterloo.
		Knowing my fate is to be you.
		Waterloo.
		Finally facing my waterloo.
		Waterloo.
unidentified		I tried to hold you back, but you were stopping To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hope you paid attention to the numbers because they're slightly different on the weekend.
		And don't forget if you want to get hold of me by email, you can.
		I'm Art Bell at mindspring.com or Art Bell at AOL.com.
unidentified		Either way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty cool.
		We're going to be talking to Bud Hopkins.
		Bud is probably the world's acknowledged expert on abductions.
		He's written and interviewed extensively about abductions.
		So if you've ever been curious about abductions, whether you think they're real or a bunch of claptrap, then you're going to want to be listening here toward the top of the hour.
		In the meantime, wide open lines, International Line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Arch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your first name?
unidentified		My name is Sheila.
		I'm calling from London, Ontario, listening to TJBK at $14.90.
		We get eight hours of coast to coast seven days a week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that's a big diet.
unidentified		Oh, boy, and I enjoy every minute of it.
		I'm an insomniac.
		I wanted to comment about the atrocity that's going on in Iraq.
		Like you, I did not support going in there, nor do I support the idea yet.
		But we're there, and let's be pragmatic about it.
		I mean, there are also Canadian men and women there that are dying, although they're, quite frankly, poorly equipped and low in number, thanks to our government.
		But they're there, and we care about them.
		And I think that whoever published this is guilty of treason, quite frankly, because any prisoners of war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, they're not.
		They're not guilty.
		Look, in America and in Canada to perhaps a slightly less degree, we have a free press.
unidentified		Oh, actually, our press is freer, to be honest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, so, okay, you think it's freer.
		Whatever.
		Point is, it's press' duty to do this kind of thing.
		If this is put in the hands of the press, they're going to publish, period.
		It's not treason.
		They're doing their job.
unidentified		That's true, and that's an emotional response on my part.
unidentified		But I'm concerned about the prisoners of war in the Allied forces who are really going to be facing some awful events as a result of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Totally.
		There could totally be that kind of conversation.
		And so our prisoners could suddenly face God knows what.
		I mean, yeah, this whole thing, it should never have gotten out.
		It should never have gone on.
		It should never have gotten out.
		It just shouldn't be happening, period.
unidentified		No, it shouldn't.
		And I just wanted to let you know that you have a supporter here in Canada.
		And I just agree with you, and I think the whole thing is just a real shame.
		And I really feel for the families that are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We need to figure out how to get out of their lawn.
unidentified		Yeah, no kidding, eh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Have a good night, and hi to Ramona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, take care.
		Check out her large garden.
		It really is an amazing garden.
		We're due for 50-mile-an-hour winds here in the desert.
		Come screeching through the sky.
		My wife came in a little while ago.
		What do you mean screeching through the sky?
		Well, 50 mile-an-hour winds screeched through the sky.
		We're getting some pretty wild weather.
		And that's what's in the forecast for later today.
		So if you're in this part of the high desert, lash everything down.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		I am?
		You are.
		Oh, wonderful.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Connecticut.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Connecticut.
unidentified		Yep, in central Connecticut.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your first name is?
unidentified		Marie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Marie?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		And I don't know, I just hazarded a call.
unidentified		I'm not really an insomniac, but I go to bed whenever I'm tired.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's see.
unidentified		Whenever that is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's about 18 minutes before 11 here or so, 12.02.
		So it's just before 2 in the morning.
		You're a pretty good insomniac, if you ask me.
		It's almost 2 in the morning.
unidentified		Okay, good.
		Okay, then I qualify.
		Okay, thank you.
		You strike me as kind of the wizard of odds out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sort of.
unidentified		Yeah, it's neat.
		I don't know.
		You kind of move around over the globe, and currently you're in the West Coast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes.
		Over the whole globe.
		Isn't that amazing?
unidentified		Yeah, I know, I know.
		It's great.
		Okay, listen.
		Yeah, you are governed by reason, which is really wonderful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope so.
unidentified		Because your instincts, or whatever it is, you were certainly right on the origins of the war in Iraq, that the whole thing was you were skeptical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay, correctly.
		I'm not passing judgment here, just that that was right.
		And you're obviously, you know, you're practical.
		So you see that currently we have to disengage or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I said we have to win.
		We have to be victorious.
		We can't be seen as losing another war.
		And we were seen as losing Vietnam.
		We can't be seen that way this time.
		We got into it, poorly advised, but we're into it.
		Now we need to finish the job.
unidentified		I understand.
		I understand.
		But the problem here, of course, is it seems like the enemy is like a many hydra-headed kind of thing.
		So it sounds like the war will never end since the enemy is morphing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know about that.
		I'm also not claiming to have all the answers, but there are people paid to have those, and they need to figure out how to kill those who would kill us and get out of there with our skins intact, leaving something resembling a better government than they had before we went in.
		That would be good.
unidentified		I agree.
		I agree.
		Okay, but it's not going to be that simple.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't say simple.
unidentified		All right, okay.
		And, okay, all right, all right.
		So in the meantime, we're confronted with these images that, of course, harken back to the horrors of all repressive regimes.
		Okay, so it's not helpful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I agree with you.
		It's certainly not helpful.
		No question about that.
		Not helpful.
		That's understating it.
		It's horrible.
		It's incompetent.
		How could it have happened?
		Behind the scenes, that's what they better be finding out.
		How the hell these were taken, allowed to be taken, and how they were allowed to be released.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		I'm a Canadian.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another Canadian.
		All right.
		And on one of our regular lines, too.
		What's your first name?
unidentified		Linda.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Linda.
unidentified		There's a lot of us over here, Art, that still think America is a great country, and President Bush is a great president.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I tried to tell that one caller who thought we were far less than great, you wouldn't see this kind of and didn't see this kind of public shredding of ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You didn't see that going on in Iraq, not once, not once.
unidentified		No, I'm ashamed of those Americans that were protesting at Rumsfield hearing.
		I turned the news off.
		I won't watch it.
		I think that man is great as well.
		And I felt so sad for him.
		And I'm ashamed of those people there that are doing that.
		That should never have been.
		Also, I'm also ashamed of, I mean, I've seen those pictures.
		Okay, abuse, humiliation, but not torture.
		And I've talked to some men who have been in World War II.
		They said you wouldn't believe the tortures that went on from the other countries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, war does that.
unidentified		Yeah, war is that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And our side does it too.
		Who's kidding who?
		But how in the hell did these pictures get out?
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		That was also said that those pictures shouldn't have been to the public because they don't have the mentality or the emotional experience to understand what war is about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What has happened to our whole security apparatus that something like this could happen?
		I mean, talk about mismanagement and screw-up.
		Holy smokes.
unidentified		Okay, I have to say yes.
		They should have never because we are not prepared.
		And another thing, why is it that America always helps everybody else?
		When everyone is in trouble, America goes to help.
		Has America ever asked other countries, hey, come and help us?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, here's another thing.
		America right now has an apparent policy of not allowing pictures of its war dead coming home.
		Well, there's an example of control That goes beyond the pale.
		You know, they're under-controlling one aspect of what they're doing over there in Iraq and controlling the hell out of what's going on back here in the United States, since when can't we show our war dead coming back?
		What's the matter with us?
		We never, our press is supposed to be free to do as they feel it appropriate to do.
		And I know they say it's for the privacy of the relatives of those who were killed, but nobody's nobody's casting any aspersions on those pictures or regarding them as anything other than heroic.
		That's not the reason they're doing this.
		Who's kidding who?
		They're doing this because of the image of the war.
		You have those photographs coming back.
		It's a bad image, and that's what...
		And that's what eroded the support for the war in Vietnam were those photographs.
		And so this time, the government has decided not to allow it.
		And, you know, citing something else, well, you know, that's garbage.
		They're not allowing those photographs because they don't want to erode the image of the war.
		And yet, the kind of photographs we're seeing come rolling out of Iraq.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		First, I want to thank you for the last 10 years of keeping me company overnight.
		I work third shift, and it's been a pleasure.
		You've enlightened and entertained and stimulated and kept me company, and I thank you for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are creatures of the night.
unidentified		I just think we're really shooting ourselves in the foot with the whole Iraqi situation.
		I just can't believe that this is not all part of just a bigger underlying situation.
		You know, there's so much talk about of this global government and this one world government that supposedly the Bushes are supposed to be part of and Cheney and Rumsfeld and the Protestants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is some grand thing behind the scenes, you know, pulling strings, and they're doing a damn poor job of it.
unidentified		Yeah, and I mean, you know, you go all the way back to the election, you know, with Gore winning the popular vote, and I've been a lifelong Republican.
		I'm 42, and I cannot see myself voting Republican this year with Bush on the ticket.
		I just don't see the leadership, the vision, and the direction that we need to be taking coming from that faction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you see it coming from the Democrats.
unidentified		Not really, but it's always the lesser of two evils.
unidentified		But the whole part of the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe something needs to be done to change that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, since when do we have to choose between the lesser of evils?
unidentified		Well, it's been that way for a long time, but I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't you rather go to the polls and be making a positive choice, in your opinion, whoever it is, rather than going and saying, well, let's see, which one of these guys is not as bad as the other one?
unidentified		Right.
		Oh, absolutely.
		That's the way it should be.
		That's the way it started out to be.
		And it just scares the hell out of me to think that slowly but surely we are just losing our God-given rights as American citizens, rights guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the Patriot Act, just scares me.
		I just see this global government conspiracy coming more and more to light in all this happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, all right.
		But as I said to you, sir, if they are in control, if there is some cabal behind the scenes, jerking the strings of President Bush and all the others in high places, then they sure are screwing it up.
		They're not doing a very good job.
		They're very poor marionettes.
		Very poor indeed.
		So I don't know.
		Incompetence is how I see all this.
		That's a word that continues to flash to mind is incompetence in letting all of this happen.
		On the one hand, we control the image of the war by not allowing photographs of the returning dead.
		And on the other hand, we don't control pictures of humiliation, whatever all went on, and God knows what's coming.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		This is Ed in L.A., listening on KFY, 640 PM.
		Yeah, first about Tesla.
		I'm trying to start a Tesla museum project to build a Tesla museum in the U.S. And from my knowledge, I don't think there's ever been a Tesla museum in the U.S. Oh, I think there is somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember hearing about it, but I could be wrong.
unidentified		Well, I don't think it's very big.
		But also, something else that relates to UFOs and so on.
		Have you ever heard of the Sonora Arrow Club?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Sonora Arrow Club?
unidentified		Yeah.
		No.
		It was formed supposedly in the 1800s in Sonora, California.
		That's Northern California.
		Right.
		And it was sort of a secret society organization called NYZMA.
		And there was a man named Delashu in there, and he was part of it and got away, and they chased him.
		And he painted pictures of these airships that were seen in the 1890s over the U.S. And the University of Houston has a whole collection of them.
		And I'll see if there's a website you can go to.
		But they look like, this is no joke, they look like the Enterprise from the original Star Trek.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		So, anyway, I'm trying to find out more about the Fedora Arrow Club.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, if you do, email me.
		Be happy to see it.
		East of the Rockies, you're on here.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello?
		Yes.
		Can you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay, this is Art, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be me, yes.
unidentified		Okay, how are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Hey, Art, you know, I've been thinking about, you know, like the situation in Iraq.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and what have you been thinking?
unidentified		Well, for example, like the whole documentation, you ask yourself, you know, like the Nazis, they documented all their atrocities, you know that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, very meticulously.
unidentified		Yeah, I know.
unidentified		I'm not trying to be funny or anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I didn't think you were.
unidentified		Yeah, but I mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they did document.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your point?
unidentified		Well, I mean, the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not trying to be funny is, look, what would Father Malachi Martin think about all this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Father Malachi Martin, sir, would think that war is a horrible thing.
		That's what Father Malachi Martin would think.
		He would think that war probably challenges the souls of those who are inducted into it or volunteer for it.
		He would think a lot of things, but having interviewed him as frequently and knowing him as well as I do, I know exactly what Father Malachi Martin would think of war.
		International line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, this is Jason calling from Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I've got a different perspective about the picture.
		I think that every NGI in the Army should be given a camera and they should use them.
		Because then you could document the true horrors of war and both the really bad things.
		Plus, you could probably also take pictures of the real terrorism that goes on at the same time.
		And the pictures would also prevent, you know, I'll cover your butt, you cover my butt, and we won't tell, you know, the next higher up.
		And I think a lot of the abuses that go on would suddenly be limited if you're under camera scrutiny at all times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So maybe we could issue a camcorder to, you know, everybody who goes into combat while they're not firing, they couldn't.
unidentified		Well, not necessarily a camcorder, but a digital camera that's kind of stuck on your shoulder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At least a digital camera, huh?
unidentified		Yeah.
		And that way if you know that you could have your picture taken while you're doing something wrong, there'd be less chance of you actually doing it.
		Because let's face it, most of everybody today lives or work under some kind of surveillance, be it a camera or a submarine monitoring your behavior on a keyboard or something like that.
		Well, you're logging in, logging out on the internet.
		There's a record of what you do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People who are in combat, sir, have their attention divided.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I doubt that taking photographs would be, I don't know, real high on their list.
unidentified		Yeah, in the heat of the battle, you might not be getting that, but in the things that happen, say, in the prison or someplace else where you're not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anything wrong that would occur during war then would be worthy of a photograph, huh?
unidentified		Well, yeah, because back in the...
unidentified		And maybe you get a better perspective on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this time, to be sure, we embedded reporters.
		Wasn't that the term?
		Embed?
		It was kind of like that.
		Some people accused, they said that's the derivation.
		It's from embed, embedded, as embed with.
		Anyway, we're going to take a 180 from last night.
		We had a real non-believer here last night.
		It was an amazing interview, actually, in a lot of ways.
		Coming up, we go 180 degrees to Bud Hopkins from the high desert in the middle of the night.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		I can feel it coming in the air tonight.
		Oh.
		Oh.
		One interview.
		One interview.
		Above the law Abu Da Abu Abu.
		Thank you.
		you know that behind all this walls like the titi sayak amele me my dreams to be all I can do that you lay above that you lay below and you said I knew which love I'm a new way To talk with Art Bell.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Last night, we had a professor of astronomy, a professor of physics, a well-educated man, indeed, a scientist named Guillermo Gonzalez, who believed that we're it, folks.
		If there's life on Mars, it came from here.
		And his own personal belief was that in all of the universe, we are the only ones.
		We are the only ones.
		The only intelligent life in the whole universe.
unidentified		We're all Alone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In a moment comes Bud Hopkins.
		Somehow I doubt that he shares that view.
		Bud Hopkins is a world-renowned artist, author, pioneer, UFO abduction researcher.
		Having investigated well over 700 cases now, he now heads the Intruders Foundation, which is a non-profit scientific research and support organization Buddhist pioneered and continues to lead the investigation into the most controversial aspect of the UFO phenomena, the systematic abduction of human beings by UFO occupants.
		As the world's premier expert on this issue, he's worked with more than 1,000 people who have reported abduction experiences over the past 20 years, two decades now.
		Hopkins' goal has always been to bring an objective, dispassionate scientific intelligence to bear on the UFO abduction phenomenon.
		In a moment, Bud Hopkins.
unidentified		Bud Hopkins.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ladies and gentlemen, Bud Hopkins.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bud, welcome to the program.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Glad to be with you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back to the program, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've been interviewing now for years and years, haven't we?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it goes way back.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I've been doing this kind of work for 28 years now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		28 years.
		Wow.
		I'm curious.
		I'm sure you heard me describe a moment ago last night's guest.
		It was really pretty intriguing.
		He made a case, Bud, that we're the only ones.
		And if there is life discovered on Mars, a fact which NASA is apparently about ready to announce, it came from here, and that we're really the only intelligent life in the whole universe.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, to me, that has to be a theory like that, and it is, of course, a theory, has to be an article of intense personal belief because there's no way that one can make that kind of statement about this vast universe, that there's nothing else out there.
		Actually, certainly the average scientist today would say not only is it possible that life exists elsewhere, and we can't say anything but that, actually, but I think the average scientist would say it is probable that life exists elsewhere, and therefore that intelligent life exists elsewhere, too.
		It's just absurd to think to the opposite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he readily admitted his ideas were very controversial today, but that is sincerely what he thought.
		And you're right.
		He had that as an article of faith.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's an article of faith.
		It really is.
		And, of course, I know that there are probably many very, very conservative religious groups hither and yon around this planet of ours who would have that belief based on their own particular interpretations of whatever scriptures they follow.
		But I mean, to make that statement that we know about the rest of the universe and there's nothing there in terms of intelligent life or even lower life forms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he readily admitted that it would be quite a severe shock to his system.
		And so then you go back to this whole Brookings thing.
		And indeed, you know, the scientists, the ones who have their careers, and we talked a little bit about careers depending on things panning out a certain way for scientists, and when they don't, they put them up on the shelf.
		You know, that is an important item for him.
		He'd be really shaken.
		And so I think a lot of scientists would be shaken a bud if there was contact.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a very interesting thing.
		Over the years, I had some rather complex dealings with the late Carl Sagan.
		And, of course, despite his refusal to really entertain the possibility that the UFO phenomenon was really something that was absolutely real, that involved craft of some sort,
		extraterrestrial intelligence, and so on, even though he would not accept that, at least on the surface, he was an absolute believer in the existence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, as are most scientists who might look skeptically on the UFO phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bud, were you privileged to speak with Carl toward the end of his life?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The rumor out there is that toward the end, Carl was beginning to perhaps change his views a little bit.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that the trajectory of his attitude here is very strange.
		He started off, and I remember the very first time I heard of him, was when he started off on, I believe, the Johnny Carson's program or something like that on television, talking about the idea that he thought there was evidence based in his examination of ancient artifacts and cave drawings and material from primitive cultures and so on,
		that mankind had been visited by intelligent life at some previous time, some ancient time.
		That's the way he made his national reputation with that claim.
		And of course, at one point he was, as a very young man, as a major astronomer, astrophysicist, he was very much connected with other scientists who were looking into the whole thing, including eventually Alan Hynek, but people along the way.
		And then it seemed that at some point he got his resistance to the UFO phenomenon stiffened, even though at one time, as I said, he thought it should be looked into.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And so I don't know what position he had at the end.
		It was very interesting to me that once when we did a television program together, he was arguing on his segment of the program against the possibility that the UFO phenomenon had behind it any kind of sense of an extraterrestrial intelligence operating these craft.
		There was anything real to it.
		And when I got in the program, my point was that the material that we have from the old story, from pilots, astronauts, people around the world, military people, everything else, about the reality of the UFO phenomenon itself, the craft, I said that undoubtedly constitutes an extraordinary phenomenon.
		And so does, of course, all reports of abductions with the similarity of the cases from point to point around the world, the physical sequeli, the things that follow, the injuries and so forth.
		All of this together, I said, Carl, doesn't that constitute an extraordinary phenomenon?
		And he said, yes, it does.
		And I said, well, then what we should be saying here, I believe, is that an extraordinary phenomenon demands an extraordinary investigation.
		And I said, we should be investigating this.
		And I said, you should be doing it, not me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, perhaps, but he met up with some, you know, I mean, he was a very quick rising star, and he may have met up with some rather impressive mainstream influence that during the middle of his life, the successful part of it prohibited him from going out on that limb.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I think you're absolutely right with that, Art.
		And when you realize that, of course, any scientist in his position really is extremely dependent upon the government's handout, so to speak, in terms of having your scientific projects accepted and funded by the government.
		And you're, in a certain sense, also beholden to your colleagues who are controlling the future of your professorship and the laboratory access that you have and so forth, that it must have dawned on him at some point that taking any kind of a firmer stand was probably not going to be helpful in the long run.
		But my feeling about him, and we exchanged letters, and it was kind of a complex, interesting relationship.
		My sense always was that he was extremely uneasy about the subject.
		This was not a man who, in any kind of intimate connection that one might have with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uneasy, that's an interesting assessment.
		That's an interesting word.
		Why?
		Uneasy in the sense that he couldn't say what he thought probably was true?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's exactly what I mean.
		My feeling was that whether or not he, to take it to one extreme, had viewed the bodies and kicked the wreckage and kicked the tires on them and so forth, all the way down to the other end, which is that he had heard enough from some colleagues who were privy to such absolute and specific information.
		Wherever he fell along that line, I think that he was certainly aware of enough to know that his position was his public position of opposing this was perhaps way over the top.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		And, of course, looking at watching the astronauts is also an interesting exercise, sort of a story to be told there.
		Some of them act very strangely on this topic indeed.
		Well, anyway, you've had so many years of research, and you've got a brand new book, right, called Sight Unseen?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's right, Sight Unseen.
		It's my fourth book.
		I'm not a very prolific writer.
		In the 28 years I've been doing this research, I've managed to write four books.
		So seven-year gaps between are not very suggestive of somebody who was a prolific writer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		So in other words, you must wait until you really feel like you've got a couple of aces in your hand before you start out.
		In other words, you must really, what motivates you to finally sit down and start working?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, it's a nice image to use.
		My basic point has always been this, that I would never present another book, sit down and put one together, unless I had new material that suggested an aspect of the patterns of abductions.
		In other words, an across-the-board dimension to the abduction phenomenon that we really were not familiar with before.
		So each book was adding not just new case material or anything of that sort, but new aspects of the phenomenon, of the pattern that needed to be presented.
		For example, when I wrote Intruders and presented that material in 1987, a long time ago, that was the first time that we had, that any of us had dealt with the idea that DUFO abduction phenomenon had at its center,
		really, the taking of sperm samples, olva samples, and just skin samples and so forth to use DNA, actually to get this material as raw material for DNA experimentation in a basic attempt to create a mix,
		a hybrid mix of human and alien characteristics to create some kind of new semi-alien, semi-human species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are convinced now that is the central motivation for abductions?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I feel that that's the one thing that we can say is the constant, even though there are many other aspects of the phenomena that turn up in individual cases, but that is the constant.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And of course, what that explained immediately was why the UFO abduction phenomenon was taking place within families across bloodlines and that the same individuals were being abducted again and again as if there was a particular study going on of the genetic makeup of a particular set of individuals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'd like to run this by you, Bud.
		it was in the last couple of months or so.
		I think Whitley had been on here and described what amounted to a sort of a sexual experience, uh, or or I guess an experience with sexual content.
		And, you know, I sort of proffered it on the air and I said, you know, I'm curious, how many of you in abduction experiences have had some sort of sexual encounter?
		And oh my God, bud, it was like the doors opened up and I had thousands and thousands of emails and I went, what am I going to do about this?
		I mean, here's a subject that's not very much discussed.
		And I just stumbled into something and I don't know how I'm going to talk about this on the air.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, the basic way, of course, that we know we're dealing with a kind of alien program, one might call it, rather than just a simple collection of individual stories from people that don't collectively add up to anything, is when you see that there are these recurring themes that turn up again and again and again.
		And this is exactly what I mean about approaching these things from the point of view of finding patterns.
		And one of the things that I discovered, for example, when I was dealing with the fact that there is this reproductive focus to the UFO phenomenon, and this is something we go into at length in the book, which I'll talk about in a bit.
		But when I discovered that, I also noticed when I went over the accounts that people were giving me of what had happened to them during abductions, is that there were certain things that never came up.
		In other words, we had what you might call a negative pattern.
		An example here is that for every one of us, when we go to the doctor, we have, for our checkups and so forth, the doctor pulls out a stethoscope and our blood cow is taken and people look into cholesterol.
		And certainly the cardiovascular system is central to everybody's concern when they go to their doctor.
		The heart is a big deal to us and the state of our arteries.
		And yet I have no cases where people in abduction experiences are reporting anything being done to their heart, any interest in the cardiovascular system at all.
		Now, if you're dealing with thousands and thousands of reports and something that should turn up, if this is fantasy, never turns up ever, ever, ever, and yet something like this interest in the reproductive system and the central nervous system, which always comes up, that has got to tell you there's some kind of distinct pattern here to these reports.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does.
		It does.
		Of course, what the actual final motivation is, I'm not so clear on that.
		The fact that it's reproductively oriented, that's beyond question.
		I mean, if you saw the thousands of replies I got, I was overwhelmed.
		I just said, you know what?
		Some serious researcher, just like you, Bud, is going to have to take this over because there's no way I can handle this on the air.
		As much as we do stuff like this on the air, there's just no way.
		And so it's a big one, Bud.
		It's really a big one.
		I don't know, though, if the final motivation is a sort of a genetically modified species.
unidentified		You believe that to be true, huh?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I believe that that, of course, is the goal of the thing.
		But what that function is going to be eventually of that particular modified mix of human and alien characteristics, what those individuals are supposed to end up doing, where they're going to live, so forth, that we do not know.
		In other words, we don't have any of the big, big, big answers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do we know to whose benefit this is?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		We don't know that.
		We have no reason to see right now the two ends of this.
		We don't have any reason to see this as we're going to be taken over, conquered, and so forth by these transgenic beings.
		And that's the better term rather than hybrid.
		It's the term we use in the book, that there are genetic splicings and engineerings going on here, which are quite different than the old-fashioned system of taking sexual cells from two different species and trying to create a hybrid, as a mule is created.
		But these beings, we don't know whether they're going to, on one end, come down and take over and run things, and that's the end of us on the most frightening side, or that they're going to be helpful to us, that they're here to cure cancer, et cetera, et cetera.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you beginning to lean in one direction or the other?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, I have long since been more worried, more on the pessimistic side than the other side, simply because it would seem that the UFO occupants, whoever they are, wherever they come from, whatever their nature is, again, questions we cannot answer at this point.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		We've never seen any sign that they are here to be beneficial, to help us to do anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bud, hold it right there.
		We're at the bottom, Darren.
		We'll be right back.
		Bud Hopkins is my guest in the nighttime, in the middle of the night.
		This is Coast to Coast AM, and I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Out on the street, I was talking to a man.
		He said, so, my brother's love of mine, but I don't understand.
		You should refer.
		Baby, take my hand.
		Don't feel the refer.
		You'll be able to fly.
		Don't feel the refer.
		Baby, I'm your man.
		La, la, la, la, la, la, la.
		La, la, la, la, la, la, la.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		In a moment, we'll get down to cases.
		Literally, in this book, Sight Unseen, that's Bud Hopkins, my guest book, Sight Unseen, the case material is by far the most radical that he's ever presented.
		It might be interesting to hear a bit of that case material coming up.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's do exactly that.
		Let's get down to some cases.
		I mean, you put some pretty radical case material in the book.
		Can you preview some?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, absolutely.
		The basic title, the reason for the title of the book is quite unseen, is the unseen part of the title.
		It has to do with the fact that one feature into the UFO abduction phenomenon, which many of us have accepted and understood for a long time, but have been reluctant To make public because it seems so outrageous is the fact that when abductions take place, in some way the abduction is rendered invisible, unseeable.
		In other words, an abduction can take place actually in the middle of New York City in the daytime.
		And I have many such cases.
		In Paris, London, Istanbul, around the world, abductions, cases have occurred that I have looked into where people are taken, and the following does not happen.
		The UFO is not seen.
		That is hovering, let's say, next to the building or the skyscraper or so on where the people are taken.
		The individual aliens who are transported down a beam of light and into the place or the car, the automobile, the street, wherever, where the person is taken, they are invisible at that moment, and so are the human beings who are taken, the abductees.
		In other words, in some way, everything can be veiled and rendered unseeable, and that's in the daytime, at night.
		It doesn't make any difference where it is.
		There is a technology of Invisibility, which is, on the face of it, it seems totally off the wall and outrageous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm not so sure about that.
		Any alien race that could get here for whatever their motivations would happen to be would be sufficiently advanced to be, I'm sure, invisible to us if that's what they wished.
		On the one hand, you could say that, but on the other hand, you could also say, well, it's easy to say it's invisible.
		Then how do we know it's real?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is the, of course, that's an extremely important point.
		The thing about the technology, of course, you're absolutely right, that if they can get here from there, wherever there is, then it would certainly seem that we don't want to limit their technological abilities by looking at our own and saying, well, we can't do that, they can.
		However, one of the themes of our book, and it's very central, is the fact that earthly technology is beginning to approach alien technology in many different areas, including experiments that are going on right now that the government is carrying out with the idea of invisibility.
		And that's a long, complex area in the book that my wife, Carol Rainey, my co-author, has gone into.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying that our government is now working on invisibility.
unidentified		Absolutely.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And it may...
		That their technology might have approached the problem along completely different lines.
		But the fact is that what our book is trying to do is to take the para out of paranormal, really, and to show that the distance between what seemed to be magical technology on the aliens' part and our own technology, that distance is shrinking.
		Now, in terms of whether an abduction is real if it can't be seen, of course, is another story.
		Abductions have to be examined in terms of their reality, the physical things that occur, the marks that are left on people, etc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, down to cases, but without naming names, can you give me an example of a case where, for example, it was unseen, but there remained some physical evidence that we could, you know.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, one of the cases I go into occurred in 1948.
		And, of course, as we know, the abduction phenomenon did not really become a public issue or known, really, anywhere around the world in any great depth until the Betty and Barney Hill case came to light in 1966.
		It occurred in 1961.
		But we're talking about 48.
		This is one year after Roswell.
		And in that particular case, the woman I was dealing with was a very young child at the time.
		And she and her brother were put down for naps in their bedroom in the middle of the afternoon in Cincinnati, Ohio, by their mother, who I've been able to interview upon several occasions, too.
		And what the mother and everyone recalled consciously, and I should point out incidentally, that the central figure in this case, the woman who I have given assumed name to, has had many, many abduction experiences the rest of her life, all kinds of issues.
		This is one that she didn't bring up to me at first because she didn't know what to make of it, and she couldn't remember the content of the abduction consciously.
		But what she did remember consciously, and her mother well remembered, is that the mother put them to bed in their little bedroom on the second floor of a building, really in the suburbs of Cincinnati.
		The next thing the mother knew was that somebody came tearing up the stairs saying that the children were outside on the ground at the basement of the cellar, the cellar steps, her children, both of them, and that they must have fallen out the window.
		The mother went, panicked, went tearing downstairs, and this central figure remembered that she sort of woke up and she couldn't move.
		She was lying on top of her brother at the foot of these basement steps, which incidentally were not underneath any of the windows from the bedroom.
		They had no memory of falling.
		They were both paralyzed and unable to speak.
		They were rushed to the hospital by a totally panicked mother and examined.
		And though they had fallen in effect because of the basement steps where they were found on cement, they had fallen three stories.
		There was not a mark on either one of them.
		Nothing that had done any kind of damage.
		And yet they both remembered consciously going floating out the window and some kind of huge shadow over the house.
		And they couldn't remember exactly what happened consciously.
		But the point is that the doctor and everyone else, of course, involved said there's no possible way these children could have fallen three stories onto cement, which would have meant they would have had to have fallen at a diagonal instead of straight down without, you know, actually there's a very serious possibility that they would have been absolutely killed.
		They could not have survived, not have a mark on them.
		Under hypnosis, the entire experience came up.
		The woman described their being floated out the window, she and her little brother, and lifted up into the craft.
		And then when the experience was over, they were put down at this basement steps.
		And the brother remembers floating out the window.
		He doesn't remember.
		He does not want to undergo hypnosis, etc.
		But anyway, the basic point of all this, there's a great deal of material about this in the book.
		The point is that this happened in broad daylight In the middle of a suburban area with stores and buildings and everything around, nobody saw a UFO.
		Nobody saw children come out a window, floating or falling or otherwise.
		Nobody heard any screams.
		There was no energy, no kind of injury to any of the people involved.
		And that's the kind of case which implies invisibility, and yet we have cases we deal with in the book where it becomes a much more tangible thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we'll get to that in a second.
		I'm curious, that was a long time ago.
		Has there been any follow-up with these children since then?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, I've been working with the mother who is now in her 50s, and she has a child, two children actually, who are seemingly having abduction experiences from time to time as if they are part of this ongoing kind of study of a particular bloodline.
		The brother, who is now a man in his late 50s, does not want to look into this and is still suffering from a great deal of fear connected with his memory of that time of being paralyzed.
		When they were picked up and taken to the hospital, rushed to the hospital, they only regained the ability to move and speak over a period of between a half an hour and an hour.
		And again, there was no physical mark on them, no explanation of why they could not speak and why their bodies were paralyzed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's remarkable.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		But this is just another case of something much more tangible.
		A woman who has given her name, Katharina Wilson, who I've worked with before and has actually written finally about her experience.
		She's a very, very solid, intelligent woman with a great deal of personal integrity, had the experience of getting off a plane in Chicago at O'Hare Airport, walking into the ladies' room, and when she feeling very, very strange at the airport, she just got off the plane and went to the ladies' room and then walked over to the sink.
		She put soap on her hands, and when she put her hands under the faucet, the sensors did not turn on, did not work, and the water did not come on to make her rinse her hands away.
		She went to the next sink and the next sink and the next sink and could not get anything to register her.
		And finally, there was a woman who stepped away.
		The water was still running.
		She plunged her hands under there and still nothing happened.
		She had to go to a little stall where there was a tap she could work with her own hand.
		Now she could see herself.
		She had no problem with that.
		But she became aware that nobody could see her.
		She was not registering on the faucets.
		And the next thing she knew was without understanding how she got there, really, she was approaching the baggage return area where she was to be met by two friends who described her as suddenly just popping into existence, popping up.
		And all the luggage had been taken but hers.
		And she realized that there was something like an hour and a quarter or what or thereabouts of missing time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Missing.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Now, this meant the two witnesses who said she just popped into existence, one of them I interviewed at great length, and she said it was as if she just suddenly in this room popped into reality and had been invisible a moment before.
		And it was a terrifying thing to all of them.
		Nobody knew what to do or say, but I have other cases of this sort of thing happening, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the implication of this is that you said there was an hour of missing time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the implication is that the process of an abduction includes, perhaps, invisibility as a precursor to the abduction, and then something that lingers perhaps a little while following the abduction.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		In this case, it seems to be something that can be switched on and off.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And if their problem is that somebody's being abducted from the busiest airport in the United States, O'Hare, and has to be returned to another part of the airport, the baggage return area, that perhaps there is a lingering period where the invisibility state is maintained past the technical needs of the abductionary help.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have similar reports from others of invisibility, of what's seemingly spontaneous invisibility?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I go into six cases totally in the book in order to establish this as a pattern.
		Another took place with two airmen.
		It's a very interesting case, who were at an Air Force base, and their job was to man a first-response fire truck that went out at night onto the tarmac where the student pilots were practicing landings and takeoffs.
		And of course, even though fire trucks at airports, thank God, don't get much business in terms of accidents, at an airbase with trainees, I'm sure that's quite different because landing and taking off can be a little difficult for somebody who's just learning.
		So there was a serious business.
		So they were parked there and they set up their truck the way they're supposed to, putting their asbestos gear, their fireproof gear and so forth out so they can get into it in a second and so on.
		And what they both remember is waking up, sort of coming to, and feeling extremely sick and thinking, what's just happened, with no memory of what it was that had just happened.
		Their gear had been disturbed, had been sort of knocked around, and they realized that it was extremely late and they were past the time they were supposed to report back to the base.
		They had no idea what happened.
		One of them became violently ill and was vomiting.
		They were extremely frightened, and they realized their clothes were rather disorganized.
		And when they went back and checked in and walked into the barracks where they were staying, still feeling extremely wobbly and totally confused, somebody noticed that they were wearing each other's shirts.
		Their name tags were the wrong name tags.
		Their shirts had been buttoned wrong and put on the wrong people.
		They had no idea what had happened.
		They knew something had gone very, very radically wrong.
		Now, the point about all this, of course, is the abduction material, exactly what occurred, turned up when I did hypnosis with one of these young men.
		But this is the important thing.
		They were in full view of this airbase.
		They were right out there on the runway near the control tower.
		This abduction where the craft came down over their truck, they were lifted up, a beam of light taken in the truck.
		No one could see it, apparently, at an airbase where there are all kinds of people standing around with binoculars and so on and radar equipment and so on watching the very area where they were, which was near where the planes were landing and taking off.
		So we have another case where invisibility seems to be the only explanation for how this thing could have taken place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a new take on all this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hadn't even considered this invisibility business.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tell you, when I deal with abductions that have occurred in Tokyo, these are cases I really looked into.
		Rio de Janeiro, Chicago, Los Angeles, Istanbul, around the world, Paris, London.
		These could not have taken place without thousands and thousands and thousands of people having seen at least the craft, the people floating up.
		We have no reports of people floating up a beam of light.
		The only exception, of course, where something has been seen is the case that I wrote about a witness.
		And that was a case where the UFO occupants were deliberately showing off what they could do.
		And in fact, we have all kinds of witnesses to this.
		I have new witnesses, and I'm going to be writing a new edition of the book to bring it up to date with all the new witnesses.
		When that just was a, you might call it a kind of a control experiment.
		It shows how many people would have seen something, even though it happened at 3 a.m. and took a very, very short time.
		It was in New York City, and we do have a lot of people who saw it.
		So that's all the more reason for us to understand why it's virtually miraculous that no one has ever seen any other abduction take place from a distance like this in a big city.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So New York is the sole case you know of.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		The only one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The only one.
		All right, bud, hold on.
		I want to talk to you about a whole bunch of things, like memories and how much these people remember of what actually happened to them during the abduction and whether that only comes back through hypnosis.
		And then I want to talk about hypnosis and how effective that is in terms of getting to the truth.
		The truth.
		That's a tough one, right?
		I'm Mark Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM making its way through the nighttime with the world's expert on abductions.
		That would be Bud Hopkins.
		right where you are.
unidentified		Hey!
		Happy and a bad day.
		You know me about two drinks of water.
		You know I love to love you, and above you there's no other way.
		Music One interview, sand, smell or touch, the something inside that we need so much.
		The sight of a touch or the scent of a sand, or the strength of an oak roots deep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up to tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
		To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing And all these things in our memories home And they use them to help us to find Yeah!
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		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are discussing rides with Bud Hopkins.
		Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		My guest is Bud Hopkins, and we're discussing abduction.
		Specifically, abductions that you cannot see, for the most part.
		Hence the title of his latest book, Sight Unseen, a book you might want to check out.
		It's his latest.
		He doesn't write a lot of them.
		When he does, he's got a good reason.
		We'll be right back and you'll hear some more of them.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would certainly be interested in any accounts out there of apparent spontaneous invisibility because you might well of course not know then that it is attached to a period of time that you might be missing.
		Not everybody notices the fact they've had missing time.
		Bud, welcome back.
		Glad to be back.
		And in fact, is that true?
		In other words, somebody might sort of stumble into this seemingly, you know, this strange invisibility thing and sort of dismiss it and not even think about the missing time and understand that they have been abducted.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, Art, my actual feelings are that the cases that we have heard about that get reported, of course, you've got a huge number of reports, as you described, having to do with the sexual issue, but the reports that we get over the years, I think, are really just the tiny tip of the iceberg, what actually goes on.
		People have an incredible ability to somehow explain away absolutely bizarre experiences that they've had.
		They may not remember fully the details of the event.
		They may remember perhaps the beginning of something or the end of it, but they don't remember what happened.
		And therefore, I think that what we hear about is only a tiny percentage.
		I want to give you one example, too, of this invisibility issue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		This is a man that I have worked with recently.
		And what he remembered consciously, and it took him years and years, he's now in his 40s, before he began to connect a whole series of events to the UFO abduction phenomenon.
		He just didn't know why he was having these weird experiences.
		He's a Brit.
		He lives in the suburbs of London.
		But when he was 16, he went to a friend's house where he'd never been before, another part of London, a fellow he'd met at a job, summer job they had.
		He was 16, as I say, they were young men.
		He went there for a party.
		They were going to watch David Bowie television program.
		They were all David Bowie fans.
		So he met his co-workers' other friends, other boys who came over there.
		And ultimately, when it got late, he spent the night there at his friend's place.
		The boy's family was away.
		Took off all his clothes, got in bed, went to sleep.
		And when he woke up, he felt very strange, but the room didn't look right.
		It didn't look like the way he remembered it from the night before.
		And he saw a stairway in his room, which wasn't there before.
		Stumbled around, could not find any of his clothes, wrapped himself up in a bedspread, not knowing what was happening, went up the stairs and found himself in a strange kitchen, someone's house.
		The woman screamed and yelled, what are you doing here?
		And he said, well, John asked me to spend the night.
		And she said, John, who?
		And it turned out he was at a different house, and yet, as it turned out, it was the house of one of the boys who had been at the party the night before.
		And that boy said, what are you doing here in the house?
		How did you get in?
		He said, I have no idea.
		And he said, where are your clothes?
		I have no idea.
		It turns out that this house is, again, a house he had never visited in his life.
		It was three miles away from the house where he'd gone to bed and where his clothes still were.
		And nobody had any idea what this, what happened, how he managed in the dead of winter to somehow get from one house stark naked of three miles to another house where he'd never been before.
		There's no way of finding that house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did this case make it to you?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, he had a number of other experiences later on which suggested to him finally, this was about three years ago, that he had had, that they may be connected with the abduction phenomenon because he remembered some more specific details of some of these later experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a pathetically small number of rapes are ever reported to the police, is my understanding, Bud.
		So imagine how few people would be inclined, you know, to go to the police or authorities and say, look, I was abducted and raped by aliens or something like that.
		Not a lot of those are going to get reported.
		Plus, you know, if you don't remember, Bud, the human brain tries to make sense of what it simply can't process.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has no reference.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, this young man said that his friends who sort of stopped seeing him at the time because they thought he must be weird began referring to him as the streaker, the winner streaker, who streaked three miles stark naked across London.
		At any rate, when we looked into the case, out came a classic abduction experience, and he has physical marks.
		In other words, there's the whole range of evidence suggesting that these are real experiences.
		But we have no way to explain it if they weren't abductions.
		How the heck did this happen?
		But again, this suggests the role that a certain invisibility technology plays in the success that the aliens have in carrying off these experiences in big cities all around the world at will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of the questions you had written down here, are there circles of power who already know about this invisibility technology and are suppressing it?
		That's very interesting.
		Now, Bud, they're working on airplanes that you cannot see from the ground.
		You hear them, you look up, and they reflect essentially the sky.
		And so they appear to be invisible.
		But are we talking here about the invisibility of things and people That our government might be working on?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, at least there are various different ways in which invisibility seems to be approached by different laboratories in different ways.
		And this is the area that my wife has taken up to write about in the book.
		She's been handling the science areas here.
		But just to give you an example, there are certain conditions where a plasma, if it surrounds an object, can somehow deflect the light rays around it so that the plasma can actually shield the solid object that's within it.
		The thing you were describing about making an airplane invisible an object, this is something that the military technology is busy pursuing, and that is that if you have, for instance, on a plane or a tank or something, screens which are, in effect, tiny TV screens all over the surface of it.
		And at the same time, there are cameras behind the object on the other side of it photographing what's behind it.
		And they carry the image around to the screens on the front of the object.
		One would be looking at this object and not see anything except what's behind it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the kind of invisibility that that's one kind.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		We don't really know, you see, exactly what the type is that the UFO occupants are able to carry out.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		There are all kinds of theories.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time I've heard the word plasma associated with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So a plasma would reflect or bends the light or takes light around.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It deflects the light waves, yes.
		It can under certain controlled conditions.
		And these are experiments.
		Now, one of the things I want to point out about the way in which our technology is getting closer to the aliens, which is very interesting.
		When Betty Hill was abducted, low, these many years ago, 1961, this needle was inserted in her navel.
		It was very painful, a very big needle, and she was told by the aliens this was a pregnancy test.
		Well, of course, everyone said, the skeptics said, oh, this is just a fantasy.
		It's a phallic symbol of some kind of weird, masochistic, sexual fantasy she had, et cetera.
		Because there's nothing about going in the navel that has to do with pregnancy.
		And, of course, a few years later, laparoscopy was developed, and a basic procedure is, of course, used very frequently to test the viability of the fetus by inserting a long needle in the navel so as not to make a mark, a hole, and amnionic fluid could be recovered, and the status of the fetus can be studied that way.
		Now it makes perfect sense that what the aliens were doing, even though it wasn't exactly a pregnancy test, but one could call it a test of pregnancy or a removal of an oval retrieval procedure, something of that sort.
		But at any rate, the aliens were doing something that was being reported by abductees.
		It didn't seem to make any sense until our own science moved up to a position which did make sense of it.
		Another thing...
		That's what it would seem like.
		And as our science develops, and of course it's developing with an incredible rate.
		Now, a second thing is, of course, that many abductees, many, and Linda Cortillo wrote about in Witness is just one of many, have described that when they were on the table in the examination area of this UFO, their arm was lifted up and a kind of a blunt semi-knife-like instrument scraped across the skin, flaking off, of course, skin samples, which were collected by the aliens.
		And this has been reported by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of abductees.
		And of course, we didn't know what that was for, except that now, very frequently, when we're doing experiments, genetic experiments, one of the basic techniques used is to take skin samples by scraping across the forearm and flaking off layers of skin, which, of course, is not intrusive or damaging in any way.
		And so we're doing something now that makes sense to us, of course, in terms of our own science, but it was being reported by abductees at a time that it didn't make any sense to anybody.
		So these sorts of things, these connections between scientific developments of our own, either because it's just a natural way our science develops or whether or not there is some particular impetus being given to that area of science by UFO abduction reports or descriptions, we don't really know.
		But the distance between alien science and human science is shrinking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But most of the, or I guess the majority of the subjects that are willing to undergo hypnosis probably do, or you request them to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that a fact?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have to want to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		But assuming that they don't really want to do it, nothing happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, of course.
		But assuming they volunteer, then you do take advantage of being.
		Right.
		So I'd like to understand a couple of basic things about hypnosis as you know them.
		How really effective is hypnosis?
		I mean, for example, is it true or not that a person under hypnosis would always be telling you the truth, or is that incorrect?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a complex question.
		Let's start with the situation that the person has a period of missing time about which they're certain.
		In other words, to go back to the case of the young man in England, Something happened.
		He went to bed in one place and he woke up in another place.
		And he woke up, you know, six, seven, eight hours later.
		What happened in all of that time?
		How did he get from one place to another?
		I mean, you start with the existence of a gap, of a mystery, of a problem.
		So we know that there's something that has to be recovered.
		Some kind of memory has to be recovered because he has some idea how he got from one place to another.
		So you're starting with something that is a fixed, viable period of time that has to be really understood as to where he went.
		Now, in terms of a person's perceptions under hypnosis, it isn't that the person is a truth machine, but the person is reporting his or her perceptions of what's going on at the time.
		Now, those perceptions might be, just to give an example, under hypnosis, a person who is nearsighted, who goes to bed, let's say this abduction takes place at night during sleep, and he's awakened and taken out, or she, goes to bed without their glasses on, and they're in a ship.
		They're not going to be describing anything that they would have had trouble seeing with any kind of clarity.
		In other words, they'll say things are hazy off in the distance there, but I can see these figures standing close to me or something of that sort.
		It's not any kind of magic trip into some sort of way of perceiving things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you explain what about hypnosis allows people to remember things that they otherwise?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, I don't think anybody really understands how it works because what seems to happen here with the UFO abduction phenomenon is that a kind of artificial block has been placed over the events of the abduction itself.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Now, that block is far from complete and absolute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only at the conscious level.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yes, exactly.
		But many people remember, despite what seems to have been an attempt of the aliens to make them not remember what happened, they remember a huge amount of what's happened.
		I've worked with people who have remembered every damn detail of what occurred from the beginning to the end of the experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any way you can account for why one individual remembers while another cannot?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the block is effective on one and not another?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		We have no way of measuring that.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		We don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or do you think the block is simply not put on some?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That may be the case, but we suspect that since the goal has seemed to have been to keep the whole phenomenon covert all the way along, especially if it's happening again and again to the same people and to their children, the covert goal seems to be there.
		But we don't know why it doesn't seem to hold, to take hold of everybody in the same way.
		And what's very interesting about this is that after an abduction, let's supposing there are two people in a car, and what they remember consciously is the car stopping.
		And then they remember somehow the car starts up again, and they're in another location, and things are very confused.
		This is one of the cases I dealt with.
		And interestingly, when the woman got home after this was over, and there was a two-hour time-lapse, she found that her earrings were both on backwards.
		In other words, the little stud was on the outside that held it in place as if the aliens don't quite understand jewelry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to say we're not dealing with fully competent abductors here in every case, are we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they dump people off in the wrong place.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		They make mistakes.
		They really do.
		But the point about this particular case is as the event was over and the cars started up again and they're feeling extremely strange and there's that feeling of what just happened, but they can't remember what it was, the man in this case turned to the woman and said, you know, I saw a very strange thing out the window.
		Now, he's the driver.
		Out the left side, he said it looked like a huge football stadium all lit up.
		But he said it didn't seem to be up a little bit.
		And he said, did you see that?
		And she said, yes.
		She said, you mean that thing that was right in front of the car?
		Now, and, you know, there are further things, of course, that went on where each one was picking up, they had conscious memories of different moments in the whole sequence of the abduction that they had both experienced in apparently exactly the same way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So all the objects of invisibility are visible to each other.
		Is that absolutely right?
		Okay, hold it right there, Bud.
		We'll be right back.
		My guest is Bud Hopkins, probably the world's leading researcher on people getting snatched, abducted by others.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Mississippi in the middle of a dry spell.
		Jimmy Rogers on the Lickdrow up high.
		Mama's dancing with baby on her shoulder.
		The sun is setting like molasses in the sky.
		But once and I knew what happened.
		Everything, always wanting more.
		It ain't you longing for.
		Black velvet, my little boy smile.
		You tell him you've seen and you talk about anything.
		He's got this dream about buying some land.
		He's gonna give up the booze and the one night stands.
		And then he'll settle down in some quiet little town.
		And forget about everything.
		But you know he'll always keep moving.
		You know he's never gonna stop moving.
		Cause he's rolling.
		He's the rolling stone.
		When you wake up, it's a new morning.
		The sun is shining.
		It's a new morning.
		You're going.
		You're going home.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		First time call line is area code 7757271222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West to the Rockies Call Market 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your income free spread access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free at 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't it interesting?
		There's a commonality then between that and those affected by invisibility.
		It's as though they suddenly, well, I don't know, somebody threw a switch and they shifted into a different vibrational state.
unidentified		Gunshot
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, Bud Hopkins.
		So in other words, it is kind of like somebody throws a switch, huh, Bud?
		And the people who are abducted, see, I'm sitting here talking to somebody who's invisible.
		Because we lost him.
		Don't worry about it.
		Bud, you're not there.
		So let's re-dial Bud right now.
		That's really funny.
		He was indeed invisible.
		Okay, here we go.
		This should do it.
		Maybe.
		We'll see what happened.
		Bud?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bud, you went invisible on me.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I'm afraid I did.
		I think it might be the phone here, and it's a wireless phone.
		So let me give you a cell phone number in case this happened to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, no, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't be giving that out, or you'll be sorry.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we'll have to just hope this one hangs together.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Let's hope so.
		I tried to charge it up here.
		I think that might have been the problem.
		Any rate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have another one you can pick up should that occur again?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I don't, unfortunately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my gosh.
		We've all descended into this wireless world.
		In this wireless world, it's a problem.
		Yes.
		All right.
		So anyway, as I was saying, it seems as though things and people all enter this realm as if somebody throws a switch and like suddenly just shifting to a different vibrational rate or something.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Something like that.
		We don't know quite how it works.
		But just to move to the other aspect of the book that is the most, perhaps the strangest of all, has to do with the scene part, which is the fact that we have many, many cases.
		And this is the whole second half of the book, has to deal with people who seem to be creatures, beings, part human and part alien, who seem to be operating in the real world right along with the UFO aliens, the gray beings, in facilitating abductions.
		In other words, they seem to be able to eat meals, drive cars, talk to people, and so forth, yet they can also, these transgenic beings, seem to be able to absolutely control another person's behavior, read their minds, pass through walls, do the things that the aliens themselves are able to do.
		And this is, of course, the ultimate result of what I had written about in Intruders, where it seemed to be the basic purpose that we discussed earlier of the phenomenon really was to produce this kind of viable mix.
		And what's interesting to me in terms of the objection science has and how they've had to back away, when I wrote Intruders and I talked about this attempt to create a mix of alien and human characteristics, I was, of course, attacked roundly.
		That's impossible.
		We could never do such a thing.
		And of course, since 1987, when that book came out, we have mapped the human genome, which is unbelievable as an accomplishment.
		And we are now in an area where, as you know, they have been able to take a gene from a jellyfish and splice it into the genetic makeup of a rabbit.
		So they now have a rabbit that under certain lighting conditions glows in the dark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't know we had done that.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		We have done that.
		Now, of course, more famously than that, a gene from a salmon has been inserted into the genetic makeup of the tomato plant, and we now have tomatoes that are able to withstand cold.
		So we have crossed from the animal to the vegetable realms.
		If I had written any of those things back in 1987, I would have been totally laughed out of the middle of the.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jeez, I thought you were going to tell me we now have a tomato that swims upstream.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That we don't have.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Maybe we should work on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not at all totally comfortable with this whole direction that science is going.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I don't think anybody is, really, except the scientists for whom this is just a catnip to the cat.
		But the point is that if we are now doing these things, the alien ability to, let's say, pick and choose And do the kind of engineering that our scientists are able to do right here and now.
		What this means, of course, is that there's even a great deal more evidence suggesting that this is the basic goal of the whole abduction program, such as it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so we understand their modus operandi to some degree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do we understand their objectives as well?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, that we don't.
		You see, that's the point.
		That's the big question, and that's something that we really don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't know if it's to help them or to help us or to hurt us.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have no reason.
		You see, there hasn't been anything that looked like it was deliberately malevolent, out to harm, out to do damage to us.
		That just doesn't turn up.
		On the other hand, we don't have any real sign that anything is being done to help us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but until we understand their objective, we're not going to understand if ultimately they're here from the government, like the government, to help us or what.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, we just don't, I mean, we have no idea what their goals are.
		And I don't know where we're going to hear that.
		And I don't know even if there was some sort of government, you know, some MJ-12 type group that has formed some kind of theory.
		It might be an incorrect theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But do you believe there is such a group, Bud?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe that within government or perhaps its environments, its fringe, I don't know, there is some kind of a group that is or has made contact or is aware of the agenda?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, certainly that they're aware of it.
		I mean, there's no doubt to me of the fact of a government cover-up.
		I mean, I just think that's been proved beyond any reasonable doubt at this point, that there is some branch thereof that is extremely aware and is taking it extremely seriously and probably at this moment beaming into the Aort Bell program to find out what we might know.
		No, I don't think there's any doubt that there's a government cover-up.
		Now, whether or not there is contact between government sources and the aliens, whether even if there were contact, that it would be reliable.
		In other words, which side might be lying to the other?
		Who knows what?
		Those are questions that I don't really know the answer to.
		But the fact of the cover-up seems to me beyond doubt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our government has not recently demonstrated the ability to cover things up all that well.
		You know, this would be obviously such a massive cover-up.
		Well, then, on the other hand, ladies and gentlemen, when you get that in the middle of the conversation, hear that?
		Click.
		Well, you know.
		Then on the other hand, what an interesting moment for us to have lost the connection with with Bud.
		Now, that may be his telephone, but That was a strange way for it to lose power, if that's what it was, wasn't it?
		Very odd.
		Very odd indeed.
		Well, let's see.
		What are we going to do?
		I think what we're going to do is take a couple of phone calls, and Bud will put his phone on the hook, and I will try him at the top of the hour, and we'll see how much more we can squeeze out of Bud.
		So we'll let it recharge for a little bit as opposed to going to the cellular line and trying to redial him right now.
		I don't think that would be.
		That was quite a moment for it to go out, wasn't it?
		Absolutely amazing.
		So why not?
		I'll take a few calls here.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, this is Desiree.
unidentified		Can you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can hear you.
		Fine.
		Unlike what just happened with Bud.
unidentified		Hi, I'm on a landline.
		I just shut off my radio.
		And I have...
		I tried calling you on your last segment, which I think is very highly connected to this segment as well, in the aspect that I was wondering...
		Because we have so much government...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		You're so quiet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm trying to listen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's my question.
unidentified		We have so much technology in our government, in our society, where our government can see people on the streets from satellites.
		And I'm questioning the motives of our government, why they've kept UFOs.
		You would question our government's motives?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, for heaven's sakes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you wouldn't think our government would be pure and come clean about the fact that aliens are here and taking people for God knows what reason?
unidentified		Unless they're the ones doing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		You know, these days...
		That's what leads me to your last segment, that it's a huge conspiracy within a conspiracy because our government is covering up the fact that they're doing this and they're letting this rumor mill sort of churn that it's aliens when it's our government doing testing on us,
		as well as why the big question in the last segment was why, how did those pictures of the Iraqi prisoners of war, how did they get leaked out?
		Our government let them get leaked out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For what reason?
unidentified		Because Cheney is developing the oil pipeline in Alaska.
		And they wanted to create an uprising or an uphill of the Iraqi people to destroy the pipeline from Iraq so they could make money.
		It's all part of the.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you know, but see, that means, okay, so then there was a conspiracy to get in the war for a motive that didn't include weapons of mass destruction.
		I mean, you were right when you said you're talking about a conspiracy within a conspiracy.
		I just can't buy all of that and then get over there and at the cost of many men and women's lives, our U.S. citizens and others, some others, but mostly us, in order to get in there and then perpetrate some further wild fraud so some pipeline is destroyed so that we can go and explore in Alaska.
		Oh, come on.
		Yeah, that's got to get a little deep for any of you.
		Wildcard line, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Our gosh, it's been such a very long time since I was able to talk with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here you are on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		My name is Beverly, and I'm in Glendale Heights, Illinois, and I'm trying to shut off this radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just turn it off, Beverly.
unidentified		I'm trying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all right.
		Don't be sorry.
		Just turn it off.
unidentified		Anyway, first of all, you are born on my mother's birthday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		June 17th.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		And I believe you were born in 1945.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		Which makes you a rooster like me.
unidentified		Your wife, Ramona, has very long hair, so do I. My father.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are we headed here?
unidentified		Well, I'm trying.
		Well, first, before it goes any farther, I called one time and told you about taking arnicated oil for your back.
		Were you ever able to find it because I can't find it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, my back is quite some bit better, with very few exceptions, thank you.
		And the reason for that is very simple.
		I lost a lot of weight, about 60 pounds total.
		And when your back has to carry around that much less weight, I can assure you it smiles more frequently.
		It makes a gigantic difference in your back.
		So there you are.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		It is off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Excellent.
		Yes, who is this?
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		This is Anonymous from Chicago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anonymous?
unidentified		Ah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why anonymous?
unidentified		I have an interesting story for you that I haven't shared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It must be told anonymously so they won't get you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, go ahead.
unidentified		Several years ago, I had an experience with a friend of mine.
		We were both interested in UFOs, and we were up late one night and went to bed about 1, and I was kind of inviting this experience because I was very curious about it for a long time now, good, bad, or indifferent.
		And for better or worse, I finally got to sleep about 3 or 4 in the morning and had an experience where I was with a being, let's say, that looked kind of leathery, brown, large head, kind of like turtleskin.
		And it was basically asking me about the sexual experience, and there was another male human present, and I can't believe it was blurry.
		And I said, you know, I am kind of consenting to this, and I will, you know, go along with this.
		But they asked if I mind if this other person was there, and I said, no.
		So they politely told this person, you know, whatever.
		And I don't really, there were some other details that I couldn't remember.
		But the next day I was so excited about it.
		It was so weird that I couldn't really tell anybody about it except for a friend of mine, an uncle, a relative of mine, and I called him up the next day.
		And we got together that evening for dinner.
		And I said, you know, I've got to tell you about something.
		And he cut me off.
		And we got distracted.
		And he says, you know, I've got to tell you something.
		Last night, he couldn't get to sleep.
		And he had a dream that I was with him And that I was going to have a sexual experience with an alien, and he was telling me not to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man.
		Well, that must have just laid you back.
		I mean, what you thought was a dream suddenly gets confirmed by the other party there.
unidentified		Wow.
		It was unbelievable because, you know, I just couldn't wait to tell him.
		And then he goes ahead and tells me, and he regurgitates the dream right up into the point where he was that other person in the dream when I said, I don't want this other person present.
		And when he, so I didn't tell him anything, he told me the whole thing.
		And I said, so what happened when you told me not to do it?
		He said that the being there told him that, because he was upset and said, you know, he's not going to do it.
		He'll, you know, he'll just meet you out here.
		And then he was brought into another area and was by himself for a little bit.
		And then he said, I came out sometime later and then we left together.
		And so, I mean, it was just absolutely mind-blowing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, thank you very much.
		Look, he sounds exactly like one of the thousands of emails that I have had on this subject.
		And when I say thousands, I really mean that.
		I was just simply overwhelmed.
		So I guess it is fair to say that this phenomenon, whatever it is, this snatching of people, is certainly sexually and reproductively oriented.
		It certainly would be interesting to know to what end, to know what we are producing, to know whether we are the beneficiaries of some good act, or whether something is going on that ultimately the human race will be horrified by when we discover what the ultimate goal was.
		But right now, we know nothing.
		We have the edges of knowledge about this experience, like this man just said.
		These abductions, these taking of humans.
		We have just only the very edge of it.
		We're learning more and more, but we really don't know what the ultimate purpose of it all is, do we?
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, this is Chris.
unidentified		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm okay, Chris.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only a little time before the top of the hour, but what have you?
unidentified		Let's see.
		Well, a temporary it's not called abduction.
		It's called temporary detainment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Temporary detainment, huh?
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Have you heard of an individual named Bashar?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Go on your computer.
		He's a hybrid 175,000 years in the future who came back in time and has been speaking with us through a trans-channeling process for about 10 years.
		And he wrote a very good book called, well, it's actually transcripts of a trans-channeling session called Blueprint for Change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm not a big fan of channeling.
		Not because I don't think it exists, because it very well may.
		It's as likely as any other phenomena of its type.
		It's just that channeling is so easily picked apart, you know, because it seems to come out, I mean, out of the mouths of babes, that sort of thing.
		Out of the mouths of others, through the brain, into the conscious typewriter of somebody who puts together channeled work.
		I'm not saying it doesn't exist.
		I'm just saying that there's so much room for misunderstanding about the material.
		From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Nights in white satin, never reaching the end.
		Letters I've written, never meaning to send Beauty at all with these eyes before just what the truth is.
		I can't say.
		Is fluoride damaging your health and dumbing down your children?
		And why?
		Is fluoride damaging your health and dumbing down your children?
		I got a tear that's all away.
		It's a situation that I just can't win.
		Please don't feel why can't I get healed?
		I got a lot of those heartaches.
		I got a lot of those tear-browns.
		Heartache.
		Tear-browns.
		All of the way.
		Coming on.
		with Art Bell, form the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Man, you ought to see the passplas I'm getting for art and everything going wrong.
		Oh, nonsense.
		This is what live radio is all about.
		Believe me, it's what it's all about.
		What makes it fun.
		That's why television is not so much fun, because nothing ever goes wrong when you're pre-taped and you can edit everything.
		James from Alberta, Canada writes, something strange just happened across the internet.
		You lost your connection with Bud.
		Your seconds later, my whole system lost its resources and locked up.
		Three other friends reported the same thing at the same time.
		Fight my one no.
		William in New Mexico says, Art, all the planets and stars and moon are in the wrong place to stop.
		Seriously.
		Their positions are way off from where they ought to be.
		Something's going on big time out there.
		No one seems to notice or.
		Art, I'm totally enthralled with tonight's show.
		Keep up the great interviews.
		Anyway, nonsense.
unidentified		Look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's why live talk radio is so cool, and live talk radio, the last bastion really of live period, is so cool.
		So operating on the premise that Bud's telephone may indeed have needed charge time during the break that's about to ensue, I will call him back.
		It will have had a little charge time, and we'll see if we can conclude this interview.
		Or did somebody wait until just the right moment and step in?
		Music Once again, Bud Hopkins, but it was very dramatic.
		When we got cut off, it just went just right at a critical moment.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		The CIA is everywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What can I say?
		Never ruled it out.
		Anyway, so where were we?
		What I did is I took a couple of calls.
		As you might imagine, they were from abductees until the top of the hour and decided to let your phone rest.
		But they were abductees.
		And, you know, all their stories, and people have varying abilities to tell stories in either believable or unbelievable ways.
		But they were abductees.
		And so any idea how widespread the real phenomena might be?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's extraordinarily widespread.
		And that's a long, complex subject to get into, but as I said earlier, I think that we are only hearing from the tip of the iceberg because most people who have these experiences only remember them partially and somehow have found ways to explain them away.
		But what I would like to ask is, is there an 800 number I could call you if we have another phone problem here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not one that's not totally every line is ringing here, so I wouldn't begin to know where to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I can do is briefly call you back and try and get the evil cell phone number, and we can finish it up there.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		If we could do that off Mike.
unidentified		Okay.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
		At any rate, no, I just think the numbers are extreme.
		But now this is the point about the part of the book we call scene, the existence of these sorts of transgenic beings that seem to be one of the ultimate products of the whole phenomenon operating in the real world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Transgenic.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		One of the cases, which is extremely interesting, involves a woman who, as a young girl, was approached in a pizza parlor with some of her friends and asked by this man who seemed to be a normal-looking human, would she like a summer job?
		And she said, yes, she would.
		And he said, fine.
		He would pick her up at her home the next day at 2 o'clock and take her for a job interview.
		She's not sure that she ever told him her name or where she lived.
		And when she told her mother this man was going to come and pick her up, her mother said, wonderful, fine.
		There was no sense that the mother, who was ordinarily very protective, would have ever, under any normal circumstances, allowed this child to get in the car with somebody who she didn't know anything about.
		But the man showed up, she got in the car, and the minute she got in the car with him, she felt extremely, extremely strange.
		She said, I felt tiny.
		And she had trouble explaining this to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you say tiny?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Tiny.
		As if she had shrunk somehow, her soul had shrunk or something.
		She felt obviously very intimidated.
		But this man proceeded, as he drove her to this interview, quote unquote, he proceeded to tell her about her entire life, including what she had done the day before, which was actually the first time she had had sexual intercourse.
		He told her about events that occurred to her involving her parents, the death of a grandparent, etc.
		All kinds of things which she never told anyone.
		And the whole thing led into an interview, so-called, in an empty office where there was no furniture.
		There was nothing that suggested there was any kind of a business going on.
		Nothing was explained about what the job would be.
		The story gets more and more and more strange.
		But the next thing is that this woman, 16-year-old at the time, feeling very much under this man's control, gets back in the car with him and is driven to, this has happened in New Jersey, to a field where there is a landed UFO.
		And she is left in the car while this man goes to the UFO, which she is seeing as a round glass house that's extremely strange.
		This is the way she remembered it consciously.
		And suddenly these small gray figures come out, and apparently an abduction took place at that point.
		There's far more to this story.
		I'm just giving a bare outline.
		But the wildest thing about this is that I have two other cases which I go into in the book which involve a similar kind of quasi-job interview, which is not that at all, but which seemed to be a preliminary setup leading up to an abduction As if the strange semi-normal human being was a sort of contact person to facilitated this experience.
		Even though these strange beings looked very, very human, they were able to control their subjects and read their minds at every point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if these transgenic beings exist now on Earth, shouldn't this be something that could perhaps be confirmed through genetic study?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or would it be such a complex thing that even a good geneticist might not notice the minor little changes?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're absolutely right that it should be something that could be discerned exactly if we could get samples from these people.
		And you may be familiar, Art, with the very interesting case in Australia that Bill Chalker looked into, where a hair, a long blonde hair, was left behind after an encounter that had a sexual component, very definitely, between An abductee and one of these transgenic beings.
		And the hair has been analyzed, and it is generally regarded by the scientists who have been looking into this.
		And this is Bill Chalker's case, so I'm not talking about this from any first-hand position.
		Although I will be in Australia at the end of this month To give lectures, so I will meet him there.
		But at any rate, the genetic makeup of this particular being seen in the hair is extremely unusual and would suggest something that's not totally earthly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Now, that's.
		I know I hadn't heard a word about that.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, this case is a remarkable case, but the point is that to get samples from these beings, of course, is a difficult job.
		But the point is that abduction, as it would seem, and as we have understood it up until this point, was something that where the aliens sort of dropped into our world from whatever their world might be and took some of us from it and did these various procedures upon them, taking skin samples, sexual cells, and so forth, and then returned them.
		But what we're now learning is that there seem to be beings who are, at least some of the time, permanent residences here.
		I shouldn't say permanent residences, but they're residents of our world at least some of the time, and they have the abilities, for instance, to apparently dematerialize and pass through walls, things that we associate totally with the UFO occupancy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And some of these are enablers for other abductions.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And these are some of the most bizarre cases.
		They're certainly the most bizarre cases that I have ever presented in print, and some of them I've known about for years.
		But lots of material I haven't presented because I have felt that I could present the material that seemed to be acceptable on some level and put the rest of it on a back burner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, too wild for the times.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Too wild for the times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Too wild for the times.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		In other words, as I get on in years and as the phenomenon becomes more and more accepted by researchers and by people in the psychological fields, the mental health fields, and mainstream scientists, as more and more people are beginning to take this seriously, I've just come forward with some of the more bizarre cases that have been, let's say, put on the back shelves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, bud, you know, America is still kind of Victorian compared to a lot of the rest of the world with regard to, for example, sex.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very Victorian.
		And I know we feature ourselves as free spirits, but we really are quite a Victorian nation, kind of prudes.
		And so we're just now getting to the point, or just barely getting to the point, where this kind of material could be included.
		And I would see why you wouldn't include it in earlier books.
		It would just go so far over the top that it simply wouldn't be accepted.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		You know, when I wrote my first book on the subject, Missing Time, which was published 23 years ago, I was aware that during abductions, people were passed through closed windows or walls or whatnot, or through the windshields of cars.
		But I did not include that in the book simply because I just finessed the whole issue simply because I knew it would not be acceptable.
		I went with the evidence that would be acceptable and just kept that for future books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then what we're talking about right now really isn't new.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just newly in print.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's the point.
		It's material.
		Some of these cases I have had that I have been looking into for many, many years ago.
		The case I just mentioned about the woman with the very bizarre quote-unquote job interview and so forth, those three job interview cases that I deal with in the book, three different people, are cases that I looked into almost 20 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's amazing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any indication at all that cases of abduction are on the increase or that numbers are increasing or are they decreasing or just is there a very steady amount of reporting?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, that again is a very hard question to answer because you only hear about what you hear about.
		And if we're talking about the tip of the iceberg phenomenon here, actually I have been looking into some abduction cases very recently that occurred within the past three months.
		It's very hard for me to tell whether there is momentum building or whether the whole thing is rather steady.
		I don't really know.
		I don't have a clear fix on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whenever we do a show of this kind, but I inevitably get a lot of people call up, and one of the questions they'll ask is, look, I would like to be abducted.
		How do I go about it?
		I usually ask these people why they would wish for something of this sort, but people have their motivations.
		Have you run into that?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, people do say that.
		And, of course, I agree with you.
		I can't understand why they would subject themselves to what is inevitably traumatic.
		I mean, just supposing you were driving your car, the engine stops, the lights go out, there's a big thing above your car, and suddenly your whole body goes rigid and you cannot move.
		Now, to say that you would not be panicked at that point is ludicrous.
		You are going to be panicked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Even though the panic might not be intended by the UFO occupants, that's going to be a natural human reaction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, but there doesn't seem to be any way to wish oneself into the market.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No relationship between what you want and what happens.
unidentified		No.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And we have none of the cards in our hands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there's every indication that it follows family bloodlines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It follows generations.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That seems to be pretty clear-cut.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That should be a hint.
unidentified		There should be a hint there.
unidentified		Here we go again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, here we go again.
		All right.
		Well, hopefully Bud will hang his phone up and we'll pick it up after the bottom of the hour break, which is coming up very shortly.
		We'll just do the very best we can.
		Let him charge that up between now and then.
		So, on the one hand, we know so much about abductions, but we know so little about why so very little about why it's occurring, and that's the answer that we've got to have.
		I mean, we really don't know.
		Some people, in fact, the majority will say they've had wonderful experiences.
		I should ask Robbie about this.
		A lot of people just say they have wonderful experiences, but I wonder if that's a part of what is given to these people as a suggestion, hypnotic suggestion, along with a block that they not remember nor talk about it.
		But if they do remember, they had a wonderful time.
		That's something worth exploration.
		Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
		You're kind of an interim little caller here while we wait for Bud at the bottom of the hour.
		What's up, sir?
unidentified		Well, he kind of touched on this.
		I had a question about, and it said that it was not bloodline, but it was...
		I want to know, have they looked into, I mean, how many of these people were female?
		How many were male?
		How many were blue-eyed, blonde-haired, the ethnicity of those individuals, and what kind of conclusions could be drawn from that rather than the speculation that this is abhorrently evil by nature, possibly, or something that, you know, the government has conjured up.
		That if he's got all this information...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Bud has researched over now 700 cases.
		So I would guess he would be able to answer questions of that sort.
		And I will indeed ask him.
		Do you have any experience at all in this area?
unidentified		Well, not really.
		I mean, since I've been a boy, I've been interested in the paranormal.
		And just listening to this program tonight, it seems that even though he's only scratched the surface as far as abductees, that, you know, have they checked the lineage from 1948?
		I mean, I've heard of stories that go back into the 1800s, but, you know, are any of these people interrelated?
		Are they connected in some fashion that may have curiosity towards the aliens that are doing the abductions?
		And obviously, they must be gathering information.
		And to what end, we may never know that, but maybe we could draw some conclusions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'll tell you this.
		Until I know whether what's being done is for our good or perhaps not for our good, I'm going to assume that it's not benign.
		In other words, on the side of safety, I'm going to assume, and I would think that most people would, that there may be something not so good in this process for human beings.
		And I could be totally wrong, and I hope that I am totally wrong, but I think the safe assumption would be that there's possible danger here, wouldn't you think?
unidentified		Well, yeah, I mean, I would probably tap that as my conclusion on the onset of it.
unidentified		But if I want to drift further and start thinking about the gathered information that has been derived by other individuals in some of these reports and what are these similarities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me get Bud back on the line and ask exactly that.
		Through the night we go.
		What a fascinating night.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Now it begins Now that you've gone Teals and pins What have you done?
		Watching back now Till you return Hiding that door And watching you burn Now it begins Day after day This is my life Before
		the morning comes The story's told You take yourself You take myself on the floor Another night Another day goes by I never start myself to wonder I guess I should forget to play my role You take yourself You take myself on the floor I I
		live among the creatures of the night I haven't got the will to try and fight Against a new tomorrow So I guess I'll just believe it That tomorrow will never come I said night I'm living in the tallest of the dreams I know the night is not as it would seem I must believe in something So
		I'll make myself believe it This night will never go Oh, oh, oh.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
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		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The night is not as it would seem.
		Matter of fact, my intermittent guest this night is Bud Hopkins.
		And in a moment, with luck, we'll get right back to him.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Internet full of mystery.
		Here's Bud once again.
		Bud, welcome back.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Glad to be back, and I hope I can hang in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope so.
		We've transacted the cell phone number, so if necessary, we'll try that.
		In the meantime, I did have a gentleman, I took a quick call, and he said, look, ask Bud, aren't there some things we can sink our teeth into?
		Like how many males versus females?
		How many blue-eyed versus brown-eyed people?
		How many particular types of people are there?
		Any stats you can break down in 700 cases or more?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, there used to be we used to get a preponderance of females to males, but that's changed.
		And I think that the reason I think it's now pretty much 50-50.
		The reason that it happened that way is because women found it easier to make confessions of weird experiences than men did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		The macho factor being what it is.
		So I think that now it's pretty even.
		Now, in terms of racial makeup, all of these other issues, that again is really all over the map.
		I mean, I have every kind of person you can imagine, every racial group, sexual alignments, whatever you want to mention, educational level and so forth.
		It seems to be really very broadly distributed.
		So I don't know that there's anything that we've been able to see that would seem to favor one group.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trying to get your hooks into this one way or the other is really rough, isn't it?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's because, you know, as I say, we only know what we hear about, and, of course, the majority, to give you an example, that the higher up the socioeconomic scale a person might be, the less likely that person is to report these experiences to somebody because they have a lot at stake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		True of crimes committed against women as well.
unidentified		Exactly.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		As I've always said, I've dealt with a MacArthur grant winner, the Genius Grant.
		I've dealt with police officers, colonel in the army, people, psychiatrists and so forth, and just some just plain folks.
		The just plain folks are the ones who are more willing to come forward and perhaps take the risks of using their names and so on.
		The more secretive people are the people who have a great deal at stake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But until we understand that the intent of all of this is benign, and we don't understand that now, don't we have to treat it as though it's obviously a potential danger to us?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I don't think there's any doubt that we have to look at it as a potential danger.
		Because, as I have said many times before, we may be the Aztecs and they may be the conquistadors of Spain.
		They have the techniques and the technologies.
		We don't know what their goals are.
		And let's always remember that the Aztecs, at least some of them, welcomed the Spanish as gods, as saviors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, speaking of that, there is also this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But a lot of people who have these experiences say, look, I'm going to tell you about an experience, but I'm not going to tell you it was horrifying because, frankly, it was either arousing or enjoyable, or I might even say it was a wonderful experience.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		And, you know, of course, the basic problem in all of this is that people are only remembering certain pieces of many of their experiences if they remember them consciously.
		And I've had I'm not saying that these experiences are horrific in total.
		I mean, people are made to feel comfortable.
		They're sometimes made to feel extremely pleasant sensations.
		They are returned to bed or their cars or wherever they were taken from, and they're made to feel that they're not being threatened and so forth, even though the trauma is there.
		So each experience contains a very broad range of emotion.
		And a person may remember, or may, for that matter, choose to remember the parts that were less frightening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When did your most recent book come out?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Sight Unseen.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It came out in the fall of 2003.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How's it being greeted?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's been very well received.
		The reviews have been very, very good.
		But the problem is that the scientific community, which is a community I wish would pay more attention to the book, we haven't heard much from them by way of response, although the people who obviously are mainstream scientists but are already interested in the subject have greeted the book with a great deal of respect.
		But I was talking to my literary agent the other day, and she said that UFO books are not being, there's not a lot of buzz about them at this point because of Iraq and the election and Rumsell, et cetera.
		And all of the talk in the book field is about the election and the war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you also suggest, though, that the UFO community itself seems to be creating obstacles for mainstream science to accept the whole thing.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		I mean, unfortunately, our field, as you know, probably better than most of us, contains within it people who are obsessives about one aspect or another of this, who have all of the answers,
		who are would-be gurus or leaders of a sect, people who are just obsessed with conspiracy theories, some of which are so beyond the pale that it's not worth discussing.
		And therefore, we're so encumbered with these situations that scientists don't want to get mixed up with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how do you end up separating the wheat and the chaff yourself?
		I mean, you're obviously you get a lot of reports.
		You get a lot of people who call and talk to you.
		And how do you make that brutal decision, or is it, after all these years, now easy for you?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's easier all the time, of course, because the symptoms of egomania or of mental illness or publicity seeking or whatever, all of those things sort of emerge pretty quickly when you're dealing with somebody.
		And we're really not, although we do run into it, the issue of hoaxing.
		But luckily in the abduction field, it's very, very rare.
		Hoaxes, of course, turn up all the time with UFO photographs and with crop circles, but not here, because you're really saying something very private about your own inner self rather than creating a false artifact.
		But I think that what we do run into, of course, are people who are mentally ill, and that's the hardest, well, that's the largest group of people who we have to avoid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe the hardest, too.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, in some cases, some cases are pretty, people are pretty subtle, but an awful lot of these cases are pretty obvious.
		The people seem pretty crazy.
		And I would imagine that, you know, we're doing this in very different ways.
unidentified		But the way you have to screen people who are calling from I knew that was coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can almost tell the battery light.
		You know what we'll do?
		We're going to try them on a cell phone.
		That's what we're going to try.
		If he's remembered to turn it on, we'll try it.
		And can't hurt.
		Let's see here.
		Let's see if it works.
		We'll find out.
		No, huh?
		That didn't work.
		Let me try it one more time.
		That's odd that that didn't work.
		This has been a very unusual night.
		A very, very unusual night in a lot of ways.
		Let me try it again.
		Let's see what we get, if anything.
unidentified		Or sorry.
unidentified		You have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, now that's all.
		You feel you have reached this recording in error.
		I'm very upset.
		Can you hear me, sir?
		I'm upset.
		Try my number again.
		You're very sorry.
		Yeah, all right, all right, all right.
		All right.
		Well, that's not going to work.
		But you know, all we've got to do is get about five more minutes from Bud on his other phone, the one that does work.
		And we're home free.
		I must say, though, maybe it's the telephone, but the way that this has been occurring has been rather odd indeed.
		It's obviously a very sensitive subject.
		At any rate, you certainly might want to check out Bud's latest book.
		And while he is not prolific in terms of just knocking out one book after another, Sight on Scene is his latest, and it's a good one.
		So I urge you to check it out.
		All right, we'll give Bud one more try here.
		Here we go.
		Disconnected.
		That's really weird.
		I'll tell you, that's a strange one.
		Okay, we'll go back to the original phone here and see if we can get him for just another moment or so.
		Let's see here.
		Bud, are you there?
		Okay, the other phone, believe it or not, came up as a disconnected telephone, bud.
		What, my telephone, yeah.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, gosh, it's on.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		should work.
unidentified		Well, I...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see what we can do.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I guess, you know, we're at sort of a summary point anyway with all of this.
		And what do you think, as a result of what you've written in your latest book?
		I mean, is there any greater summary that we can now give the people about abductions in general, since you're such a world-class guy on it?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, that they are, first, infinitely more widespread than anybody thinks, that the whole subject should be absolutely at the dead center of thinking of the scientific community, the mental health community, and the population as a whole,
		that the UFOs have the ability to create invisibility when they need to go through their operations, and that there are beings who are occasionally operating here amongst us who are partially alien in nature.
		These are really enormous issues to be faced and extremely radical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And nobody's really facing them, are they, yet?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, they're not.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And the scientific community is the worst here, the mainstream scientific community, which simply will not look into it and has no idea of the range and depth and breadth of the evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But where does a person who's been abducted has missing time or whatever and wants to find out what really happened to them, where does that person go?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have a website which is intrudersfoundation.org.
		Very easy to get to.
		IntrudersFoundation.org, They can contact us there.
		There's information about how to get in touch with us through email.
		The numbers of people who are doing the work that I'm doing, and David Jacobs, and John Carpenter, and John Mack, and a number of other people are doing, are very, very few, unfortunately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you mentioned Dr. Jacobs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's one of my favorite interviews.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		He's a wonderful guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Simply because I think he's reached a conclusion I share with him, and that is that until I know otherwise, these are not necessarily our friends.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that has to be taken for granted.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Let's remember, the UFO occupants have been flying around here, certainly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what, Bud?
		We're about to disappear.
		I'm going to thank you for a wonderful interview.
		I knew it.
		There you have it.
		The end of Bud Hopkins for this night.
		So at least I got to thank him for a great interview, and it was a very good interview, despite the interruptions.
		We made our way through.
		Something's happening, and he's right about one thing.
		All of the ruckus going on right now, which circles back to the first hour of the program, the ruckus going on right now over the war and over our treatment of prisoners and the whole war thing in general has taken over just about every headline and every topic and ufology is going to fall into the place where I'm sure many on certain committees and in certain groups would like it to be and
		that's certainly away from the public's attention totally.
		So that certainly occurred.
		That doesn't mean that it's not going on and for any of you who really do have missing time, I do recommend you follow Bud's thoughts on the subject.
		Intruders.org would be one possible avenue.
		In other words, what you've got to do is get to a researcher who will privately and reasonably help you find out what happened to you.
		In the meantime, I would be more than happy to continue to receive information from all of you, those of you who have been abducted, whether it's had sexual content or not, I would be happy to sort of continue to read your experiences and try and figure out where we go from here with this whole very complex problem.
		I don't have the slightest idea.
		Let's see if we can squeeze one caller in.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Kelly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Kelly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ohio, okay.
unidentified		I just, I wanted to call and tell you about, I was looking at your website a while back at Pictures People Drew or Shadow People, and I almost fainted because I saw a picture of these two figures that I used to see all the time when I was little.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, shadow people are another example of invisibility or something that's right on the edge of invisibility.
		They're particularly interesting because we can sort of only sort of see them, some people more than others, but still we can only sort of see them.
		They're virtually invisible otherwise, right?
unidentified		Well, to me, they look like TV snow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		TV snow, huh?
unidentified		You know what?
unidentified		Like fuzzy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about.
unidentified		Yeah, they didn't have eyes or faces or anything, but there was two.
		They were grimace-looking figures.
		And I saw them all the time growing up.
		They'd be in my bedroom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, your story is like many, many others.
		And as you grew up, did it begin to fade?
		Did it begin to go away?
unidentified		Yes, it did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That figures too.
unidentified		I don't know why.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think I do.
		Thank you very much.
		At least I think I have a clue.
		I think that children, particularly small children and animals, see things that we don't see.
		And I think, I know it's going to sound silly to you, but I think they see them because we haven't told them that they shouldn't see them yet.
		Do you follow me?
		In other words, society, I believe, inculcates into our young people increasingly as they grow up and they're able to communicate and understand the fact that these things really don't exist.
		They just simply don't exist.
		And so our brains, trying to make sense out of things that are nonsensical reject them in various ways.
		As if you had eaten a bit of something that disturbed your stomach or you might write it off in a million different mental ways.
		But you've been inculcated so heavily with the fact that these things are not real that your brain automatically just simply casts them aside when they occur and you don't notice it.
		But when you're young and when you haven't been told not see these things or that these things are not real, you see them.
		And then as you grow older and you better put this one in quotes, wiser or more informed or should we say more brainwashed, then you begin to reject these things.
		Hence, they don't seem to be happening to you.
		That doesn't mean they're not happening.
		They still may well be happening.
		It's just that, well, you don't think that it should be true anymore, so your brain finds a way to tell you that it's not true.
		Any rate, it's been my honor to be with you on a Sunday evening.
		It was fun with Bud Hopkins while it lasted, and it lasted just long enough.
		From the high desert, I bid you a very good night and a good week ahead.
		Good night.
unidentified		Midnight in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
		This magical journey will take us on a ride.
		Thank you.
		You were belonging, searching for the truth.
		When we make it to tomorrow?
		Will the sun shine on you midnight in the desert and we're listening to you?

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