Colm Kelleher of NIDS (National Institute for Discovery Science) examines the Black Triangle UFO phenomenon, with nearly 500 documented sightings since the 1980s, peaking in 1998–2001 and aligning with major U.S. highways—not military bases—undermining stealth craft theories. He explores possible explanations like high-altitude dirigibles violating treaties or a "leaky embargo" hypothesis, where extraterrestrial civilizations may reveal themselves gradually through controlled disinformation. Despite credible eyewitness accounts, NIDS found no definitive extraterrestrial evidence in physical samples, including a dried snail mistaken for alien footprints and nickel-plated brass objects from abductions. The discussion suggests UAP sightings could reflect advanced, unacknowledged technology or deliberate psychological testing, leaving their true nature unresolved amid skepticism and fringe theories like hollow Earth propulsion. [Automatically generated summary]
And as a result of the Drudge Report headline, it is right at the very top.
The Drudge Report.
We're going to have this hour in a moment.
My co-author, or I'm his co-author, whatever, of the coming global superstorm.
Now, of course, spawning a movie based in part on the coming global superstorm called The Day After Tomorrow.
And right at the top of the Drudge report, it says, along with a picture of a city under siege by tornadoes, coming superstorm.
Fox climate change movie irks Bush Administration Ice Age Outrage.
Saturday, April 24th, 2004-1005-27.
Federal agency employees not to comment publicly on Fox's new summer fuss film the day after tomorrow, a $125 million disaster movie on global warming.
The flick, which depicts how accumulating smokestack and tailpot gases set off an instant ice age, is set to open May 28th.
Few climate experts think such prospect is likely.
The New York Times is, however, planning to report on Sunday, according to newsroom sources of the Drudge Report, but the prospect that moviegoers might be alarmed or will be alarmed enough to blame the Bush administration for inattention to climate change has stirred alarm at the space agency.
Now get this.
Quote, no one from NASA is to do interviews or to otherwise comment on anything having to do with a film.
And so, you know, a million people have sent me links.
So now I'm in trouble with George Bush.
Well, great.
Actually, I kind of like George Bush, minus a couple of things.
As far as inattention to climate change is concerned, yes, I do have a big concern with that, a really big one.
Whether it's accumulating smokestack or tailpipe stuff, I have no idea.
This may be an absolute cyclical change and have nothing to do with anything man does, or it may.
As I have always preached, I really don't know.
I really don't know.
What I do know is that it appears to be happening and it appears to be underway right now.
So the book and the movie are both rather timely.
moment whitley streber stay right there you By the way, if you check out my webcam photo up at coastaium.com, just up at the upper left-hand corner, and click on webcam, you'll see me happily holding up.
I went trudging into Walmart the other day looking for a book.
I'm an avid reader.
I devour, I don't know, just a book every two days or so.
And look at what I found.
Would you look at what I found?
The book, The Day After Tomorrow, by Whitley Strieber, done from the screenplay of the movie that is about to descend upon the Bush administration.
Here is Whitley Streeber, author of, oh, gee, all kinds of books, zillions of books now, a very prolific author indeed, one of my favorites, co-author of War Day, and, of course, The Day After Tomorrow, now author of Day After Tomorrow as well.
Urgent HQ Direction began a message emailed on April 1 to dozens of scientists and officials at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland.
That is the lead in a story that has just been published on the New York Times website within the past few minutes.
Said the April 1 message which was sent by Goddard's top press officer.
Any news media wanting to discuss science fiction versus science fact about climate change will need to seek comment from individuals or organizations not associated with NASA, which is quite amazing.
Down at the bottom of the story, it says, if environmentalists distance themselves from the movie, they will be squandering a gift, said Dr. Daniel B. Botkin, an emeritus professor of ecology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, quote, I think it's a good educational opportunity that we should treat a disaster movie as entertainment and not get upset that it's a distortion.
But $125 million on global warming must be a record for publicizing the issue.
So it's interesting.
This article By Andrew C. Revkin, unless this is a shortened version in the online edition, he interviewed me for over an hour, and our book neither our book nor the interview has mentioned a word of it in the article.
Somebody, Lewis in San Diego, writes, Hey, hey, Art, of all the subjects you've covered on Coast over the years, nothing has ever produced an official response from Washington.
Not quite true.
There are a couple things I've done.
Anyway, their reaction to global superstorm is all the evidence needed to confirm that you and Whitley got it right.
Well, on my website, as of about two hours ago, if you go to unknowncountry.com and click on the mind frame section, you will see the latest Whitley's journal, which is Sudden Climate Change has begun.
The process is underway.
The weather that we are seeing across the United States right now is a result of this change.
And I can be real specific about what I mean.
Last summer, a strange thing happened on the U.S. East Coast all the way from Maine down to Florida.
When people went swimming, it was suddenly really cold.
And the reason we weren't was we'd been watching the Gulf Stream change its course over the past couple of years.
And the result of this is that cold water from the polar seas was kind of leaking, if you will, all the way down the coasts to Florida.
And to me, this meant the next thing that we would find out would be somebody who was out there studying this was going to say the currents were slowing down.
Sure enough, no less than Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute ridiculed on some talk shows as being a liberal thing where they get that, I don't know.
Yeah, until people look up and notice that the clouds are getting kind of dark.
But anyway, sure enough, Woodshole said that the changes, the slowing of the North Atlantic current was astounding.
And now NASA has just announced a couple of days ago a critical part of the system called the subpolar gyre has been slowing for a long time.
We're seeing the consequences of it now in the weather pattern in America, in my opinion.
That is to say, we basically are still in a, we've had a very long, very harsh winter.
We're still in a winter weather pattern in this country.
Meanwhile, in the tropics, all that warm air is literally becoming warmer and warmer, and it's being forced to the south because the jet stream still has not changed to a summer pattern, even though late.
Now, when it does change, over the next few weeks, it can't be more than a few more weeks, you're going to see, I think, quite violent weather.
I don't know how violent or how complex the storms, but we just saw a couple of big supercells pop up in Oklahoma yesterday.
We were up all night, my wife and I, not all night, but until 3 o'clock in the morning, just because of the continuous lightning and the racket of the storms that were taking place here in San Antonio.
Not to that extent this late in the season normally.
I mean, it's not unknown.
None of it, because, you know, there's nothing going on right now that is totally unknown.
That may not remain true.
And I'll tell you why not.
One of the things that, as you recall, when we were doing research on Superstorm that we found was a certain kind of iffy amount of evidence that there had been an event in the past where I think, as I recall, we found a study of about a, was it an apple tree or something that had been frozen in full bloom north of the Arctic Circle and never thawed out for thousands of years.
And this, when we were writing our book, this was generally kind of discounted as being scientifically impossible no longer.
Last year in Peru, a plant was found buried in a glacier that had been inundated with snow so quickly that it had not rotted.
It had literally frozen where it stood, meaning that the snows that had caused this glacier, it had dropped within a matter of hours.
The plant did not reappear for 5,000 years.
Now, caught in the same disaster, apparently across the world in Europe, was the famous ice man who was inundated with snow and didn't thaw out again for 5,000 years.
So something happens during these climactic events.
At that time, there was a brief period of sudden climate change that didn't really evolve into anything.
It may have been caused by dust from a comet.
We're not really sure what caused it, but it was just a, it lasted about a century then.
but what we know is that during the course of it, there were these extraordinary events where there was fundamental change that lasted for until the current period.
We have no idea at all what that weather process is.
And another thing, everyone is leaping on the Bush administration.
What about the Clinton administration?
They didn't say anything about it.
What about the previous Bush administration?
What about the Reagan administration going on back, the Carter administration?
These issues were already present in the mid-80s when I wrote my book, Nature's End.
Nobody cared then.
Nobody anywhere in the world.
The only leadership, real leadership, that has been ever shown in this area is the previous Canadian Prime Minister.
And what did he come up with with the Canadian Prime Minister's plan, which is a plan which individuals can carry out in their homes at no cost to industry at all, that any world leaders,
if any of those presidents had come up to the table and said, let's take this seriously, we would have, at least, whether this is a cyclical event we can't prevent or not, we could have reduced our own carbon dioxide output considerably.
Well, anyway, I kind of agree with the fellow who sent me the email.
If we hadn't hit something very hard on the head, I mean, you never see an administration through NASA or its own devices come out and sort of preemptively go at a movie the way they're going at this one.
Yeah, and War Day reminded everyone that, yeah, that might be true, but it was going to still be kind of unpleasant.
And it sort of killed the idea of hardening American industrial sites and stuff that was floating around at the time.
And, yeah, the administration was very annoyed, and it became known as the war day scenario when it was eventually adopted by some of the scientists involved, Dr. Kostasipis and so forth.
And their strategy of provoking the Soviet Union into a limited nuclear war was shelved, basically.
And so I've been there.
And, you know, I don't know.
It's very disturbing in a way because, of course, living here in San Antonio, I have a lot of friends who are close to the Bushes, and I know them to be wonderful people.
And, you know, nobody, I mean, I know there's a lot of partisan people who say you have to hate Bush or you have to love Bush, et cetera.
But let me give you an idea of what I mean by wonderful people.
A few months ago, the son of a friend who also was a friend of the Bush's was in a very bad situation with cancer.
And as busy as George W. Bush was, he took time out.
This guy, he could have been, he's all right now.
He's in remission now, but he was at the time believed to be dying.
And he wanted to go in the White House and to just see the White House.
So a little tour was arranged for him.
The White House was closed at the time because of the terrorism threat.
And he and his new wife and his mother-in-law went to the White House, and soon enough, they were ushered into the Oval Office.
The President spent half an hour with this young couple simply out of the goodness of his heart, as busy as he is, simply to say to this young man and to give him hope.
And it was extraordinary.
Now, I tell this story on purpose now because we're in the middle of a battle, and the president has been it's hard for an administration to change its position on something.
But I think they will change their position on this.
Well, you are especially in the case of an administration who has taken, which has said there is no such thing as global warming, and has even gone so far as to send a memo to Congress, to supportive congressmen, saying that how to kind of spin this during the course of the campaign.
And unfortunately, I think that they need to change their position on this, that this is something that we need to address and something we can do something about, probably.
Well, the thing is, Art, I was looking through my old journal entries, and I was saying on last August that this was beginning to happen, and it would be fairly soon.
And I was thinking about back when we were working on the book, we were figuring like 25 years hence, not four or five.
Believe me, we're on rides like we're on a roller coaster.
Ever been on one?
It's like we're sitting there in one of the first cars, a big roller coaster.
And this ride's already underway, folks.
A little while ago, you felt the first little jerk and you started up that first mountainous hill, and you're kind of chugging along.
You're almost at the top of the hill, and you're almost ready to look down on that big plunge that you're about to take.
Oh, yeah, we're on a ride.
Whitley Streeber, back in a moment.
Right under the photograph on the Drudge report of the city under siege, it says, coming Superstorm, Fox's climate change movie irks Bush administration, Ice Age Outrage.
That's what it says.
So, you know, I guess, Whitley, it's going to be, it looks like, I mean, all I've seen, of course, is the trailer so far, which is stand the hair right up on the back of your neck for sure.
And I don't know whether it's really going to turn out to be an outrage for the administration or not.
I think the fact that there has been no attention to what's going on with the climate from the political side, there's been plenty of late from the scientific side, but that there has been none from the political side is an outrage.
Well, now, there is an article that just appeared literally in the past few minutes on the Minneapolis Star Tribune website saying that NASA has changed its position.
Oh.
Gretchen Cook Anderson, the NASA spokesperson, said the agency would make scientists available to discuss issues raised by the film.
And, you know, Mark Gordon, the film's producer, is making some good points.
He says that all they need to be saying is the drama of the movie is fictional, but the fact is that global warming is real.
That's really the truth of it.
And it's not even that, you know, but you know where this all started?
It all started with elements in the environmental movement squaring off against people who were against, who did not want government planning and attempting to use this problem and many other problems as a way to impose a level,
re-impose, in some countries and in this country, impose a level of social planning that has been roundly rejected by mankind and that's unwanted.
And they never should have done it.
Because it isn't about reimposing some kind of re-imposing some kind of socialist or Marxist planning structure on the society, enforcing and making all kinds of different things mandatory.
It's really about leadership.
And that is what we don't have because there is so much the individual can do in his own life.
And yeah, and the point of our book was, yes, we did concentrate something that's probably going to unfold over a 10-year period into a short time for the purposes of telling the story, and they did the same thing in the movie.
But nevertheless, that kind of planning that you're talking about should have started many years ago, because what we could be seeing really unfolding, beginning to unfold right now is a change in climate that's going to leave the growing season all over Europe and North America much shorter.
What we're trying to pound in again and again is that with planning, it's much more survivable, and so many lives could be saved if we began to realize what's going on and shifted our agricultural patterns and adjusted.
And if we spent the time and energy, above all, to find out exactly what's going on, because one of the great problems is that we don't really know.
And unfortunately, one of the things that's been happening in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is that the paleoclimate research budget is being cut back.
And that's exactly the kind of thing we absolutely do not need.
Because that is where we can go to look for models for planetary climatic conditions that were similar to now so that we can tell what the future may bring.
With the barrage of mainstream scientific recent alerts that have been issued, Woods Hole and such, why, parallel with that, would the administration be so solidly still on this it's not happening thing?
It's a lot like, oddly enough, the last Texas administration, the Johnson administration, in this respect, has a tremendous amount of trouble changing its direction.
They really have trouble saying we want to do this another way now.
Well, I think they've been aware of the film for a while.
I think they've been aware of the film since the beginning of the month.
And I know from a friend that some copies of our book and of the day after tomorrow have been in the White House.
I doubt if you'd be very amazed if the President has read them, but I'm sure somebody has.
And so it's definitely an issue that they're planning in one way or another to deal with.
And unfortunately, right now, what it looks like they're going to do is to deal with it by saying it's all nonsense and this is just fiction and it couldn't possibly happen.
And what's so troubling to me is the scientific consensus is that sudden climate change is very much of a reality, but that it couldn't be this big, this violent, or this sudden.
And I'm just troubled by those plants under the glacier in Paris.
What's troubling to me is something unknown has happened before, and we are not really looking at that at all because nobody really wants to.
And I don't know what it would be like, actually, if whatever that was blew up again.
But even with the mammoths that have been so thoroughly debunked in north of the Arctic Circle, the fact remains that the fossils, however the animals died, the fossils were found with temperate zone plants that they had been eating, and that they certainly could never have eaten in that place again from the day They died until the day they were unearthed.
And so, whatever happened happened very suddenly, even if it was only over a few days, it happened suddenly and it was effectively permanent.
And if you look at what happened in Peru, the scientists who looked at those plants are saying it happened really very suddenly.
And to get to the story, you just go to my website and put Peru in the search engine, and you'll find the story immediately.
Well, all of this evidence, I mean, whether it's the contemporary Woods Hole stuff or whether it's archaeological evidence that is so clear or any of the rest of it, it just seems so overwhelming when you add it up with what's happening right now for them to be still just not coming off that position at all.
No, no, to look at the paleoclimate and find out just exactly what did happen in Peru and to determine exactly what that was because you've got six billion people living here now.
And if that happens to anybody anywhere, it's going to be a real catastrophe.
Well, I am actually involved with a couple of things that are really interesting and strange.
One of them is a story that we just received from an unknown country reader in Germany, and I'm looking at it right now.
This will go up on Monday, a day after tomorrow, on our site.
Over Ramstein Air Force Base on January the 22nd, there was a really odd phenomenon.
What it was, was seven colors of light.
At first they were balls of light, and then they became pillars of light that were coming down from above.
They would become fainter when clouds passed overhead, and then brighter when there were no clouds, meaning that they were coming, shining down from above.
There were auroras in the atmosphere at the time, but this is no aurora.
These things were absolutely stationary, and they lasted all night from approximately 11.30 p.m. until they dissipated as the morning sky, in the morning sky.
And the odd thing was at 11 p.m., there was a square shadow visible in the sky.
And during the night, communications, cordless phones, internet quit working.
The lights got worse, got brighter.
And here's the part that's fascinating.
There seemed to be kind of an electromagnetic effect connected with it.
Now, recently in Italy, in Sicily, there has been a bizarre event taking place involving spontaneous fires breaking out in electrical appliances, primarily in electrical appliances, and in cars and things.
Yeah, in a town there where even things that are cut off and isolated are bursting into flames, and there is a major scientific effort taking place in the town now.
Well, again, I think it's probably not UFO-related.
I think it's probably a natural phenomenon.
And again, if you want to find out more, go to the website, go to the search engine, which is on the left-hand column about midway down the page, and just put in the word Sicily, S-I-C-I-L-Y, and you'll get all these stories right away.
But in any case, it's disturbing to me because it, again, is a suggestion of the presence of a very bizarre, unknown phenomenon that is, in the case of Italy, at least they're studying it.
But I doubt very much that if it was, for example, happened here in the United States, there would be any study.
Everyone would immediately be saying, oh, well, it must be this or it must be that.
There's a culture of denial connected that's very powerful in this country.
Well, a good example is in archaeology.
In India, the Indian archaeological community is working hard to do undersea archaeology on this extraordinary apparent city that was found submerged in the Indian Ocean.
American archaeologists won't touch it because it violates established theory.
It shouldn't be there.
And we have another case, a very, very fascinating case, of a skull that has been in the Archaeological Museum in Mexico City for a very long time, since the 50s, of an apparently, it looks like an ANU skull, a Japanese skull.
It's carbon dated to about 13,000 years ago, suggesting heresy of heresies that seafarers from Japan came to Mexico that long ago.
Now, this attempts to get this skull studied within the U.S. community failed again and again, but now the equipment necessary to do the kind of DNA study that is needed is available in Mexico, so they're going to do it themselves.
And we will know, as the archaeologist involved said very simply, once we have this skull studied, we will know for certain whether or not people came from Japan.
And somehow in the culture of science in our country, we've crossed a line between wanting to know the truth whether or not it fits theory to only wanting to know the truth if it fits theory.
And I don't know how that happens to science within.
Maybe a very strong, powerful Nation like ours gets stodgy, and maybe the academic community tends to get stodgy, and why careers are held on certain theories.
And if those theories get in trouble, then the feeling is the career gets in trouble too.
Well, it's going to be very interesting to see where this, I mean, here we are a full month ahead of the movie, and already there's this incredible controversy swirling around it.
I wonder what's going to happen when it actually comes out.
Well, when that hits, and then, of course, the movie actually comes out, I wonder if that is how this will be perceived, if there'll be a backlash against the current administration in Washington because of it.
That's the National Institute for Discovery Science and has led the investigative project of NIDS for over actually seven years now.
NIDS is the only fully funded organization in the entire U.S. that employs full-time PhD-level scientists on staff.
NIDS also has a world-class science advisory board with 15 members drawn from many, many branches of science.
Killer has a PhD in biochemistry, also wet lab research experience in molecular biology, virology, and biochemistry.
He has led both the UFO investigative arm of NIDS as well as NIDS research into cattle mutilations.
We're going to talk about the enigmatic black triangle phenomena.
That's one of the very few things that I talk about on this program that I've had intimate personal experience with myself.
And I mean, as intimate as anybody would ever want to have.
And I suppose one last time, one last time, I'll tell you about that in the course of this discussion coming right up.
All right.
One last time, and very quickly, just before Column takes to the air here.
One night, many years ago now, I worked in Las Vegas for KEDWN Radio at that time.
And I used to commute back and forth from here to Las Vegas every single day.
Well, Ramona and myself were on the way home And in fact, had almost made it home.
Not more than, oh, I don't know, a quarter, half mile at the most from here.
As we were making one of the last turns toward the house, Ramona, who was in the driver's seat, said, What the hell is that?
And I said, But what do you mean?
And she said, Behind us.
And so I pulled the car over and stopped on the side of the road.
We had a little Geometro, a red Geometro at that time.
We still have a Geometro, by the way.
And pulled over to the side of the road, and we both got out and stood and watched this incredible, incredible black triangle approaching us from the rear.
It was still approaching at that point as we stood by the car.
And I'm telling you, folks, this mama was big.
It was pure black.
It could not have been more than, you know, I'd estimate 150 feet above us.
It was monstrous as it passed overhead.
The stars and the nearly full moon at the time went away, you know, just like in the movie, closing gouters or whatever.
This thing couldn't have been doing more than about 30 or 40 miles an hour and maybe less.
I'd say maybe 30 miles an hour.
It was not flying, not as a conventional aircraft would fly.
It was floating.
Not only was it floating or defying gravity, however you wish it, it was making no noise whatsoever, no apparent propulsion system whatsoever.
It was so quiet you could hear crickets a quarter of a mile away, half a mile away.
And it was so close, I felt like I could have thrown a rock at it, but you know, I didn't.
I was so shocked.
And so I guess I was actually, we were both actually in shock, and it passed directly over our heads and kept on going in a west-northwesterly direction, roughly toward what we know as area 51 out here, just over the mountain range from me.
But there's no question about what it was.
There's also no question about what it is not.
Now, we were not the only ones to have seen it in the valley this night.
Many people in the valley saw it and reported it.
And the newspaper out here made a call to Nellis Air Force Base.
And in fact, I didn't even report it to the newspaper.
This was in the next week's paper, you know, that Nellis had been called because so many people had seen this.
And Nellis responded with something like, and I'm paraphrasing, yes, it was possible that a secret mission overflew the Prump Valley on that date or that evening, but that it was a C-130 aircraft.
That's right, a C-130 aircraft.
And I tell you folks, I was in the Air Force and I rode in C-130s and they're really big, prop-pitch airplanes, and they make a lot of noise and would have rattled my teeth.
And I can absolutely assure you, what I looked up and saw, what Ramona looked up and saw, was a large, black, metallic-looking, you know what?
I should retract that.
Large, black.
I can't say metallic-looking.
You can sort of think metal, because that's generally what aircraft are made out of, right?
But it was large, black, silent, and either defying gravity or floating.
That's what we saw.
I made all the reports you're supposed to make to the various agencies.
And I was embarrassed for the Air Force in coming up with that explanation for what had been a C-130.
God.
And then I thought very hard about it before I went on the air, because I talk about this kind of thing.
That's what this program is all about, the unusual.
Well, this was really unusual.
And I thought very hard about it.
Should I even report that I've seen something like this, even though I had my wife with me?
Because doing this kind of a program, people are going to go, oh, come on.
Sorry.
That's what I saw.
And ultimately, I decided I should tell the truth and tell what I saw.
And that's how we're going to start out the conversation, talking about these for real, and they are for real.
I can't say that about a lot of things I talk about on the air because I don't know it to be true.
But Column, I know what I saw, and it was a large black triangle so close to me, Column, that if I'd had senses about me, I could have thrown a rock at the thing just about.
Because we got interested in the Black Triangle phenomenon, and your case sounds almost identical to the standard issue description that we've got for, I think we're running up towards 500 separate sightings of these objects all around the United States.
But what really began the black triangle phenomenon from our perspective was the famous Illinois St. Louis, Missouri sightings that happened January 2000.
And that was on the morning, the early morning of January 5th.
We got a call from a police officer in Highland, Illinois, who was reporting this exactly what you've described, this gigantic silent triangle that had just gone over.
And it was heading in a southwesterly direction from Highland to Lebanon.
And then it actually passed over the outer perimeter of Scott Air Force Base, which is one of the larger Air Force bases in the area.
Heading in a southwesterly direction, as you mentioned, about 30 miles an hour, making no attempt to be stealthy.
And it had a lot of bright lights on it, too.
The interesting thing about this was the cop who had called it in also radioed on ahead to the next precinct and told them, You know, get outside and wait for this thing.
You're going to see a light show in a minute.
And that's exactly what they did.
Police officers in four separate precincts on that same morning saw this same object heading in a southwesterly direction, no more than two or three hundred feet above the ground and completely silent.
This thing was emitting very, very strong lights, and it was a rough triangular wedge-shaped thing about the size of a football field.
Well, when I saw on the website tonight, I saw the NIDS photograph.
I just couldn't resist putting up my own.
Following our sighting, we had quite a long discussion with an artist in order to provide an absolutely or as close to absolutely accurate picture right down to the geography and the mountains in the background and the whole schmear as we could.
And so what you see there really is exactly, precisely what we saw.
And I guess, like everybody else, I want to know what we're dealing with here.
Well, we've gone through a really sort of lengthy evolution in our thinking because when we first started gathering all of these cases, they were very much pretty well all the same standard explanations.
You have, I think, really well encapsulated exactly what the majority of the eyewitnesses have been telling us from all around the country.
Well, the actual sightings go back to the 1980s, but as we sort of ramped up our information gathering, the vast majority of the sightings that we have in our database begin at 1998 and then just continue.
There's a dramatic increase, 1998 to 1999, then 2000, 2001.
It's really interesting.
There was almost 250 cases leading up to September 2001, and then there was a dramatic falloff all through 2002.
2003, they began to increase again, and 2004 again.
But there was a dramatic decrease, and I can only speak for our database.
I'm not sure if that is, you know, other organizations are collecting these kinds of data too.
Somebody just named Kay in Los Angeles writes, you and your guest tonight should be aware that while triangle-type ships are being reported more these days, there are sighting reports of these kinds of ships going back actually several centuries.
The famous researcher Desmond Leslie lists a few dozen historical accounts, including these black triangle ships, in the book Flying Saucers Have Landed, which you no doubt own.
I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe the sighting dates back to the 15th century, so that, to me, makes it rather dubious that they could be our military smile devices.
Yeah, that's a very good point, because if we have cases going back to the 1960s, and we've done a lot of backtracking since about two years ago, when we had about 200 cases or so,
we published what we thought was a correlation in terms of the Air Force military bases around the country and an apparent concentration of these black triangle sightings in the vicinity of those bases and also in the flight paths between these bases.
I'm specifically talking about Air Force Materiel Command and Air Mobility Command, Air Force bases.
Now, about two or three months ago, we launched an updated review of the data with an awful lot more, a couple hundred more cases.
Does NIDS believe, it says on the website here, that the hypothesis that I guess you are holding on to is that these BBDs could be lighter-than-air blimp-like military vehicles of some kind, BBDs standing for what, big black deltas?
That is the hypothesis we floated a couple of years ago, yes.
Now, I should mention since then we have had a re-examination of the data.
Oh.
And I can certainly say that the data that we have right now, if you plot it on a map of the United States, and not only you plot the Air Force Material Command, Air Mobility Command bases, but you plot standard cities, highways, you name it on the map of the United States, what you see is something really interesting.
There is a much stronger correlation between the big black triangles and the main interstate highways in the United States, as well as the cities.
And that really causes us to take a second look at the hypothesis of a military stealth project, because the locations of the vast majority of the new sightings that we have are located, as I mentioned, on interstate highways, which is completely inconsistent with a stealth project.
In other words, if you take on the west coast interstate 5 and you begin in Vancouver, Canada, you go all the way through Seattle and you move down to Portland and then through Eugene, these triangular objects follow that main highway all the way down to L.A. and south of LA they go down to San Diego.
There is an unmistakable Association with number one, the interstate highways, and number two, the main population centers.
So we're looking at objects that are adhering to main population.
I mean, most of the population travels on the interstate highways as opposed to the smaller highways.
Is there any reason, any motivation that you can even dream about that would cause the military to want to have their top secret aircraft seen by a lot of people?
So in other words, it's almost like they're following the highways.
And Interstate 5 is not the only example that we have.
If you look at the map, in Colorado, you've got I-25 that runs north-south through the entire state, starting off at Cheyenne in Wyoming, going all the way through Fort Collins, all the way down through Denver, down to Pueblo, you've got them dotted along that same highway.
Well, it jolted us when we added the newest data to the map, and then we flipped it from the Air Force bases.
What we were doing was plotting the Air Force bases on the map of the United States and plotting the locations of the Black Triangle sightings.
And up to about 200, 250, there seemed to be a correlation.
However, with the newest groupings, and I should mention also, we've asked Larry Hatch, who is probably one of the biggest private UFO databases in the world, for his data set.
And also we've asked MUFON for their data set.
And we've also plotted them on the same kinds of maps.
Well, if you conclude that these are not our own craft, and you do so on the basis of the seeming public exposure they want to have, then there aren't many other choices, are there?
I'll tell you, when you've seen something like this, it changed.
It just sort of changes your view of everything because, I don't know, because you've had personal exposure to it.
Now, Ramona was just in here reminding me that a program we were doing at the time in Las Vegas called Area 2000, a program about the unusual to some degree funded by Robert Bigelow, we were actually doing that program when this incident occurred.
So that may roughly date it whenever it was that Area 2000 was going on.
That's when it happened.
Bigelow is a very very wealthy man who lives in Las Vegas, Nevada, who quietly funds a great deal more than you know about.
You know about some of it, NIDS, for example, and a lot of other scientific inquiry, some of which is made public and a lot of which obviously is not made public for various sound reasons.
But Robert Bigelow funded in part Area 2000 all those years ago.
And that's when it happened and that would date it a little bit.
And also on the approach to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
Now, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is one of the two headquarters of these Air Mobility Command and Air Force Mobility Command, or Air Force Material Command, Scott Air Force Base being the second one.
I was interested that you mentioned the Nellis Air Force Base had said, yeah, there was a C-130 in the air, because that was exactly what the investigators we sent out to the Illinois sighting in January 2000.
That's exactly what they were told from Scott Air Force Base.
If Nellis had said, you know, we had a secret mission which may have overflown the Prump Valley, and that's all they had said, I'd have gone, oh, okay.
But I mean, to go on and say it was a C-130, I actually got kind of embarrassed for them and angry at the same time.
Well, any unidentified flying object actually having the temerity to go over a U.S. Air Force base, you would think would be dealt with rather quickly, considering there's radar and they would be aware by eyewitnesses, if no other way, that, gee whiz, there's this thing overflying our Air Force base.
Now, your caller, your listener mentioned that they go back to, or she thinks they go back to the 1500s.
Well, we know that there have been several waves of high-intensity either triangular or boomerang aircraft or UFOs, whatever you want to call them, going all the way back to 1980, especially the Hudson Valley Westchester boomerang.
It was a very famous series of sightings out in Connecticut and Putnam County, New York, around 1980 to 1985.
And we're talking literally thousands of eyewitnesses over that five-year period.
And again, a lot of the eyewitnesses reported that these things were literally floating down the, I believe it's I-84 out there, just floating down the interstate, maybe 300 or 400 feet.
Sometimes just after dark when it was still rush hour and people were stopping their cars, pulling over to the side, getting out.
And the photo or the artist's rendition on your website that I just pulled up is the kind of description that a lot of these people were describing.
So multiple waves, we would say the wave that we have monitored really began in 1998, and it's still going on.
I know that NIDS, of course, deals with good, hard science and tries to stay objective and brings in really world-class investigators and all the rest of that.
But, you know, there must be times when you folks sit down and discuss some of the questions that my audience would be asking and I'm asking, and that is, if we are being visited, Columb, and we're going to talk about cattle mutilations and all the rest of this sort of thing, but if we are being visited, why have they not announced themselves?
Why toy with us in such a seemingly childish manner, you know, zooming down freeways, picking up and dismembering cows and dropping them off, and perhaps creating crop circles and doing all these things that we cannot explain.
It's almost like we're being played with, toyed with in some manner.
Well, we had a discussion actually a couple of weekends ago.
We had a lot of the board members were in town, the NIDS Science Advisory Board members, and there was a lot of talk about this so-called leaky embargo hypothesis, which is the idea that there is a generalized embargo for galactic civilizations.
And that one way of beginning the process of contact is the so-called leaky embargo, which is a very sort of surreptitious program to gradually let the citizens know that there's something beyond Earth.
Do you think such a program of slow leak could work so that eventually, maybe not today or tomorrow, but in five or ten years or whatever the plan would call for, when contact actually was made, the American people would be perhaps mildly surprised but would go, well, ho, finally, or, you know, some lesser reaction than panic in what Brookings imagined might occur with contact.
And, you know, the American people in opinion polls have really voiced their opinion time and time again that they would not feel particularly threatened by this kind of thing.
We have run several nationwide polls run by the Roper Organization.
And the kind of feedback that we've got is that, you know, most people would not panic.
They would not sort of head for the hills and sort of buy lots of guns.
They would carry on and be very cautious.
However, the other part of that whole thing is how would the scientific community react and how would the political and other community react, religious to an extent too, the so-called upper echelons of society.
Scientists really have a lot more to lose in this whole game than most other people because there is a potential of the scientific viewpoint being changed fairly rapidly by the sudden appearance of aircraft that defy the laws of physics, for example.
It's really difficult to verify that because you have the ridicule factor which permeates society, which permeates especially the elite parts of society.
So it's a really open question whether or not the political apparatus in this country is any more open to the whole concept than it was 30 or 40 years ago.
And if you're hypothesizing a leaky embargo, this leaky embargo sort of gradual appearance scenario has been operating at full tilt since 1947, which is, what, almost 60 years now?
That this sort of, I don't know, spotty delivery of information that gets laughed at and eyewitness reports that get laughed at and all the rest of it, or even stuff that makes people sort of mildly curious, like video that's been captured and the rest of that, which is more impressive yet.
All of this is actually sort of a military disinformation program and that people like myself doing programs on this kind of thing are perhaps dupes of the military and we're just helping them continue to see to it that their secret military projects are laughed at.
That is superimposed on a long-term program of gradual introduction.
This program could be a 200-year program.
I mean, there really is no way of assessing that because there's nothing to compare it against.
But what you've just said about mixing information with disinformation, I think is a very classic way of operating.
The other aspect of this whole business is what Jacques Vallé would call the sort of deliberate introduction of absurdity into this equation, and that is there are so many cases of UFOs Doing very,
very strange things or occupants of UFOs being reported to sort of do completely weird things like offering people cakes or offering them food.
There are several cases in France that happened in the 1950s, 1960s where that was documented.
Yeah, exactly, where there's really no logic to what happens.
So Jacques Volley would say that that is part of a potential long-term program where the absurdity is used as a learning tool, where people are exposed to absurd things, there's confusion, it's a way of psychologically insisting on learning, so to speak.
Just before the show, I got an email from this guy at an aerospace company, and what he said was, I've heard that these are triangular-shaped dirigibles that the Army, I think in brackets, are flying around.
They are antenna arrays that are in violation of some treaty, so they're keeping them quiet.
And then this especially makes sense seeing that Lockheed Martin now owns Goodyear Aerospace.
In other words, we're talking about a very large blimp with extremely sophisticated antenna arrays, something that could be parked at 100,000 feet and essentially monitor everything.
So you could park it over Afghanistan, you could park it over Iraq, and you would own every signal that's coming in and out of that area.
Oh, I hadn't thought of an application of that sort.
That's absolutely fascinating.
You're right.
We have satellites, but to be virtually stationary at, say, 100,000 feet, you would indeed own every transmission made by anything over a very wide geographic area.
Column, here's the other thing, the other question about all this, and that is, if the military has something like this, and if, I don't know, aliens, I guess, are also manifesting something like this in our sky.
I just, well, where am I going with this?
I want so to know what this is about.
I want to know what we're facing.
And if they're both up there, it just confuses the issue all the more.
And I want to get out so badly, I want to get to the bottom of all this while I'm still alive.
I want to know what's going on.
Will we know what's going on while we're still alive?
Well, you know, if you look at this whole leaky embargo thing and you take it seriously, this could go on ad infinitum.
You know, time could be, you know, our lifetimes could be fairly small in terms of the kinds of length of time that this program could go on.
But, you know, one of the things that we've been looking at is since we discovered this relationship with the interstate highways in the United States, we know that the Europeans were absolutely inundated with these black triangles, especially Belgium in 1989 to 1990.
Well, I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I have found I have to get on the hair of what I am It's all clear to me now My heart is on fire This is the
madhouse, it's my kiddie call My people can't move down the moon and start Where am I to go now that I've gone too far?
And if I'm standing through the twilight zone The race in my house feels like being loud My people can't move down the moon and start Where am I to go now that I've gone too far?
It's too far, too far, too far When I'm on the moon and start So do what I'm on the moon When I'm on the moon and start When I'm on the moon and start To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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Oh, man is doing this kind of work and this kind of program frustrating.
This kind of material, black triangles, animals being mutilated and laid back down.
Crop circles, some of which, of course, we know were fake, but a lot of which were not.
I mean, things going on on Earth that clearly point toward the possibility of our having visitors, and it is so frustrating not to know exactly what it is.
I just can't tell you.
You know, I think I should add that NIDS is available to you.
Now, NIDS has top-level PhD scientists on staff, and in the right circumstance, they will dispatch these people to any point really in the world and investigate unusual phenomena of all sorts, whether it's cattle mutilations or sightings that rise to a certain level or, you know, whatever.
They really can.
They have the resources, the money to do all of this, and they are almost, I suppose, unique in that regard.
And they have a hotline set up, at least you used to have.
It's been a while since you've been on the show, Colin.
When there's cattle mutilations, for example, a serious case of cattle mutilations, would that cause your organization to move some scientists toward a farmer's field somewhere?
Peter Davenport also Runs a sighting center in the state of Washington, and inevitably the sightings he gets, the good ones, he records eyewitness reports, plays them back, does that sort of thing, and he literally reports everything of substance.
Now, that's not necessarily the case with NIDS, is it?
In other words, and there's been some criticism about that, Colin, because occasionally NIDS will get in the middle of a scientific investigation of some sort or another and find reason to not release all details or everything about it right away.
So you're an investigative organization, and you don't always report everything to the American public, do you?
So NIDS is on a straight line, continuing to do as it always has done, or have there been changes in policy and direction for the organization of recent days?
Well, we've had a new staff member come on in the last couple of months.
Dr. Bruce Cornett is now the deputy administrator of NIDS.
In terms of the kinds of cases we deal with, we have narrowed the focus to pretty well the cases I just mentioned, that multiple witness sightings, close encounters, anything to do with physical evidence are the vast majority of the cases that we try to focus on.
Now, the black triangles obviously are not in that category, but we do continue to collect those kinds of data.
But we do not spend much time or effort on lights in the sky, essentially.
Well, a lot of the lines of evidence that we've had, and we're really talking about whispered conversations kind of thing, seems to suggest that there is technology has been recovered.
But, you know, there definitely is not a smoking gun from that perspective.
Do you recall the testimony given by a colonel once who said that he actually was releasing technology into U.S. industry that had been recovered from Roswell, the crash?
Yes, and we spend a lot of time interviewing him, too, kind of off the record.
And I think there's a really big difference between the kinds of data and information that he was talking about when he was on one-on-one interviews versus what actually ended up in the book that he wrote the day after Roswell.
I think there's a lot of stuff in that book that is very difficult to stand behind.
There were a number of different things that he talked about during the interviews with NIDS people, among them an encounter with some kind of a being at White Sands Missile Base that did ring true from the eyewitness perspective.
In other words, we could not find any reason to disbelieve him.
He also did talk about working with this General Trudeau and having some kind of a program ongoing.
People at NIDS went into the military and tried to falsify that and were not able to falsify it.
In other words, those reports of technology being back-engineered via industry.
The only information we have is that the same numbers of aircraft seem to be going in and out of the facility.
I don't know if the focus has shifted into a new direction or if new centers around the country have opened up.
We have no idea.
Traditionally, we have kind of stayed away from spending a lot of time on Area 51 because the vast majority of the stuff that comes out of Area 51 is not really in the bailiwick of NIDS.
In other words, it's not unidentified.
Sure.
So we have tended to stay away, with the exceptions of these large triangular objects that are associated with.
We suspect that there's a lot of UAV testing going on out there, for example.
And that's one of the things that we've kept an eye on is the kinds of UFO reports that we've been getting matching them against the UAV databases.
UAV standing for unmanned aerial vehicles.
In other words, the kinds of the predator and the globehawk.
There are dozens and dozens of different sizes, different shapes of these unmanned aerial vehicles flying around now and being tested and being deployed.
And we've had several cases where people have reported to us very, very small sort of six inch to a foot type objects that are obviously intelligently controlled, and they fly in very unusual ways.
Of the various stories of contact over the years that have manifested, Column, and when I say contact, I mean people who claim to have been taken aboard craft, people who claim to have had close encounters of the third type at least, are there any that needs particularly regards as credible?
Well, you know, there was a case we dealt with fairly recently where we thought there was physical evidence.
And I don't want to go into too much detail, and there's actually a second one, too, that falls into the same category where physical evidence in association with abductions is considered a holy grail, so to speak.
Well, I can go through the case pretty well because this was an entire family out in California who had multiple, multiple encounters in their home over several year period.
And they were obviously very stressed because all family members, except one actually, were having these encounters with creatures in their home.
So they began to formulate a plan to actually begin to try to measure or to get physical evidence.
And one of those efforts involved putting a towel down on the floor, and underneath that towel was an aluminum foil.
We went to the wall on this case because we thought it was sufficiently interesting.
We put it through multiple rounds of DNA analysis, and I'm talking seven or eight separate rounds of DNA analysis.
First, several analysis came up with something that looked or did not match anything in the databases that we knew about.
Eventually, and there was some very, very talented people who worked on this project.
Eventually, what they did was they went back to square one and used a completely different Form of analysis.
And eventually they nailed what this object was.
It was a terrestrial mundane mollusk, or it was a dried-up snail that was embedded in the towel.
And the reason that was it took about nine months to do this project.
The reason it was so difficult was that snails tend to secrete a thick mucus that is loaded with chemicals that stop the normal DNA analysis procedure.
And so we were getting results from several different types of analysis, several different types of directions that seem to suggest that this did not match with any DNA that was known.
So naturally we were getting really interested.
We were getting more and more interested as time was going on.
And we spent a lot of money.
We spent a lot of time on this.
But the long and the short of this whole thing was that even though the explanation itself was fairly mundane, that does not necessarily detract from the experiences of this family.
We've had several cases like that where apparently physical evidence in association with one of these, what looks like a very interesting case, it just turns out to be mundane.
The physical evidence itself turns out to be mundane.
He's gonna give up the booze and the one-night stands And then he'll settle down It's a quiet little town And forget about everything But you know he'll always keep moving Though he's never gonna stop moving Cause he's rolling He's the rolling stone When you
wake up, it's a new morning The sun is shining, it's a new morning You're going, you're going home The sun is shining, it's a new morning talk with art bells.
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To have something, physical evidence, actually, that you thought was not of Earth to go along with an absolutely credible story of abduction and to spend all that time and money doing the DNA test to find out you had a snail on your hands.
Imagine.
Imagine the frustration.
Yes, very, very frustrating.
Column, I'm curious about something.
SETI, the organization looking for intelligent life up near the hydrogen frequency or now with laser or whatever, they've been at it for a number of years, and a statement's been made recently that, you know, if we don't come up with something, despite what we've surveyed already,
and say another, I don't know, X number of years, we're going to be forced to make a statement that says, basically, look, we've surveyed this much of the sky, and we haven't found anything, and we've got to admit that's suggesting the possibility that there is nothing.
Is there going to get to be that point with NIDS where, despite the best efforts and years and lots of dollars expended, you're going to be forced to say we don't have the smoking gun.
After all these years and all this investigation, we don't have the smoking gun.
So maybe all of this comes from imaginations, overactive imaginations.
Maybe all these reports of abductions and sightings are just, well, whatever they are, but not real.
That's why NIS was created, was to go after the physical evidence.
Once you abandon that and you start invoking other dimensions and what have we, it becomes an endless circle.
So we're going to continue for as long as it takes, but your question is a very good one.
We have not got any physical evidence right now that we would regard as a smoking gun.
And that physical evidence is materials analysis or DNA analysis, like the one that I briefly described.
But we've done multiple, multiple physical elemental analysis on everything from implants to, or alleged implants to objects that are associated with abductions.
And like I mentioned, every single one Of those has come down with a mundane explanation.
Now, you could certainly hypothesize that maybe we're missing something.
Maybe that this is advanced nanotechnology that is made to look like ordinary pieces of aluminum.
But we're using what we consider the best available technology.
And if there was any hint of anything from, quote-unquote, extraterrestrial sources, the obvious way to look at it would be to look at isotope ratios.
And every single examination that we've done on everything from pieces of objects that have come out of people's sinus cavities or objects that have come out of other extremities, they all said the same thing.
They're all terrestrial.
In many cases, they have a mundane explanation.
We had a very, very high-quality interview with a family.
It was a mother-daughter, and another child who wasn't there had a very intense abduction experience just outside San Francisco.
They came to our office here at NIDS, and we spent almost a day carefully interviewing several people involved.
And there is no doubt in our minds that these people absolutely believed that outside San Francisco one night that this large object came right over their car.
They pulled over their car.
And both the mother and the daughter remembered that the husband was left in the car while the mother and daughter were floated up into this object.
And after that event, the mother began to feel discomfort up in her sinus cavities.
And make a long story short, one morning she was shaking her head because it was particularly uncomfortable, and something popped out, and she noticed it in the wash basin.
You know, we conducted x-ray analysis on this object, and it turned out that it was nickel-plated brass.
It was a small rectangular object.
Well, it turned out once the people who looked into it pretty closely found that it was one of these little metal brass objects that holds toothbrush bristles in place.
Now, whatever happened on that morning when the thing suddenly appeared in the wash basin, after she had shook her head and felt like something had dropped out of her nose, that does not, again, take away from the very compelling testimony that both the mother and the daughter separately told to us.
And short of any physical evidence, I mean, does that mean that one day NIDS is going to have to say, well, look, we've been on the hunt now for 20 years with the best people that money can buy, and we've got to say there's no physical evidence.
Well, we can also, yeah, we can probably be pretty comfortable making that statement.
But as these cases accumulate, and there are several others, there was a case where a pretty spectacular UFO sighting just outside Grand Junction, Colorado a few years ago, where this object dropped off a UFO.
And we put it through probably close to a dozen sets of pretty sophisticated elemental analysis.
It was a fairly sizable object, but elemental analysis and a whole variety of different types of analysis showed that it was basically a form of slag, aluminum slag.
It had nothing, and we went after the possibility that it would have different isotope ratios and all of that, and it didn't turn out to be the case.
So we had that case.
One of our board members is currently investigating yet another case at this time in Belgium where this couple had a close encounter with an object or with a craft, and again, something dropped off the object and landed on the road beside them.
It was molten when it landed, so they had to wait for it to cool down.
So, you know, you've got this, what I'm trying to say is you've got this pattern of anomalies.
And with these patterns of anomalies, there's physical evidence.
But when you apply the scientific, rigorous methodology to these objects, in 100% of cases, in our experience, and I can only speak for NIDS's experience, it comes out with a terrestrial slash mundane explanation.
Now, if you go back to the original talk about the leaky embargo hypothesis, maybe that's exactly what this is telling us.
That We are, for whatever reason, not being allowed, or whatever word you want to use, to obtain physical evidence of these because maybe it's too early.
So, your question about 10 years, 20 years, 30 years for NIDS is a good one, but maybe we're not at that stage yet.
What about those things that were witnessed and recorded, I think, very accurately, that did occur at the ranch?
Now, the ranch, folks, is a ranch where anomalous, very anomalous things began to happen.
And in some way, NIDS and Robert Bigelow found out about it and literally bought this ranch at the location we won't disclose, and then set up scientific observation posts, if you will, to watch the anomalous activity.
And on a couple of previous shows, you've reported some of that, some incredible stuff that occurred that has totally no explanation in logic, does it?
We have logged close to 100 separate incidents on that property going back to about 1994.
So we're approaching 10-year anniversary.
We actually moved onto that property in July, August, 96, which is almost eight years ago.
And since then, we've been monitoring that property.
We've had people on the property pretty well continuously.
We still have people on the property, and there are still the occasional incidents that happen, but nothing like the intensity that happened back in 94 to 97.
Yes, and it was still the end of the afternoon, evening where there was still enough light for the camera that was watching the three cameras to have enough resolution to see somebody coming up to the place and ripping off the wires from the cameras.
Now, at the same time, there was a PVC piping where the video wires led into the ground that was also forcibly ripped off the telephone poles.
So there was a lot of force used in this particular operation.
And, you know, we went through the process of video enhancement and digital enhancement to make sure that we were missing nothing.
And we even had enough resolution on the camera that was watching the three cameras that were disabled that we could actually see the lights, the characteristic red lights underneath these cameras going off.
And it corresponded exactly to the time stamp on the cameras that lost power.
So we were able to triangulate the sequence of events pretty accurately.
The only thing that was wrong with this whole thing was that there was nothing associated with the cameras losing power.
There was not enough resolution to see the actual wires coming out of the cameras, but we could see the cameras losing power because those red lights underneath of the cameras were exactly corresponding to the colours.
Okay, so this stuff then is going on, despite the fact that we can't get physical proof of it going on, whatever it is.
And that would almost automatically, it seems to me, make NIDS force NIDS to look at the possibility that it's not extraterrestrial perhaps in origin, but as at least one possibility that the phenomena is associated with,
you know, I hate to go into other dimensions here, but you're almost forced into doing it, Almost forced into that, at least considering it, aren't you?
Well, we're forced to consider that every single analysis, physical analysis that we've done, has come up with something terrestrial.
And in each case, those physical objects have been associated with anomalies.
So if there is a terrestrial explanation to these phenomena, then yes, you would invoke some kind of a dimensional hypothesis.
And, you know, it goes back to this, what is the definition of an extraterrestrial?
Does it also include dimensions or entities or beings or whatever you want to call them that are coexisting on this planet, but we just can't see them?
You know, we've had several incidences on this same property in northeastern U.S. One of them, it seems to me, involved somebody with night vision equipment watching what amounted to a hole in nighttime space opening up with something crawling through it.
And from the millions turned dark to what do you mean?
We had to get out before the magic got away We were running with the night Playing in the shadows I'm through the night To the morning light We're running
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Yet at the same time, you just heard a man describe something that crawled out of a hole.
It was seen with night vision and to a lesser degree with other equipment.
Absolutely incredible stuff.
Incredible.
But still in all, no physical evidence.
Not yet.
I wonder if it didn't crawl out of that glowing hole in the dark and slowly move away only later to become the governor of California.
Okay.
Welcome back, Colm.
Here's where I want to go now very quickly.
I do want to get to phones, let people ask questions here in a minute.
But you know, I mean, you just told me some pretty wild stuff, and yet I know it to be true.
And I also know what I saw and have seen to be true.
So I mean, this stuff is, on the one hand, going on.
On the other hand, we don't have the physical evidence.
So it demands that we start looking at, it seems like to me, things like the possibility of other dimensions, the possibility of life after death and some influence coming from that, behind that curtain, or even time travel, some of these pretty esoteric, strange things.
But, hey, they've got to be considered, don't they?
And, you know, the ranch also had physical, you know, dead cows on the ranch.
So, I mean, that was pretty physical, too.
So one of the things that we were able to do was look at, you know, there was a calf that had been killed over a very, very short period of time on the property in daylight with a couple of people about 300 yards away.
And we were able to use the techniques of veterinary forensics to absolutely establish that this animal had not been killed by a predator, but had been, sharp instruments had been used on the animal, and a couple of different types of sharp instruments, like a large machete type instrument and a small, more fine, knife kind of instrument.
So we were able to use the tools of forensics to at least establish that this was not some sort of a predator attack.
But again, it did not establish the who in this situation.
And on the same property, we had a whole litany of animals that just disappear into thin air.
And I'm talking like over a dozen since NIDS has purchased that property.
And this particular property, it's not all that easy to lose animals.
I mean, it's a 480-acre property and can be searched pretty easily.
But in spite of that, close to a dozen animals have never been recovered from the property.
That's in addition to the animals that have died on the property.
Beyond the obvious, in terms of that it is not just simply a hallucination that has been looked at.
We don't have any conclusions about near-death experiences.
In other words, we have no tie-in to the UFO phenomenon either.
There is a, obviously there's a long tradition in the Native American traditions that do associate these objects, especially orbs and orbs of light, with the afterlife.
And that, you know, the particular ranch up in Utah was host to numerous different types of orbs.
We know in the area up around Dulcie, New Mexico, which is around Highway 84, there were dozens of cattle mutilations around that same time.
Well, a few years later, actually.
It was more like 1978, 1979, but still in roughly the same period.
They were investigated by a highway patrol officer there called Gabe Valdez.
And Gabe Aldez worked as an investigator for NIDS for several years.
NIDS, as an organization, investigated several cases in New Mexico of cattle mutilations, primarily around Taos, New Mexico, Dulcie, and the northern part.
But we have not looked at the southern part.
I'm interested in the southern part because we did not have any data about cattle mutilations in that area.
While we're on the subject of New Mexico, there was a recent article, again, this has been a recurring theme for years and years and years, about this doggone hum and noise that appears to come from under the ground, literally to the degree where it keeps people awake in parts of New Mexico and elsewhere, I might add.
Something going on underground, some vibration, some hum.
I've had several experiences with UFOs sightings and four possible abductions.
I would like to ask your guest, has he ever done any, or his organization ever done any research on people that claim to be abductees, their brain patterns being different from other people that have never been abducted?
I've been told by Stanton Friedman and Pete Davenport, several other MUFON researchers, that the abductees seem to be operating or people that see UFOs tend to have a different, they operate at a different frequency, so to speak.
I wanted to make three little statements here about maybe the triangles being dirigibles.
Now, I saw a Goodyear blint before it was retired last year, and it had turbofans or something on it.
And you could hear it distinctly about 300 feet in the air.
So if this big triangle is like three times that big, it'd have to have at least six, eight, eighty of these engines.
Now, as for going 100,000 feet in the air, the winds aloft alone would seem to me to just tear that thing to pieces, how it would get up that high with all the winds.
And the last one is, you know, over the Air Force bases, couldn't they put a mode seed transponder in there and make it look like a C-130 even though it didn't move like one, but you know, have records of a C-130 in the area?
I mean, these Air Force bases need to know type situations and everything.
Yeah, well, the last point is definitely feasible.
But the fact is, there were so many different eyewitnesses, and I'm speaking about the Illinois case, that saw this object going right over them.
And in addition to the four or five cops that saw this object, we went on the ground out there and we beat the bushes.
We got an additional 20 eyewitnesses, many of whom saw this object up close and personal.
And there was absolutely no way it was anything like a C-130, but it could have had a transponder signature that corresponded to a C-130 that was picked up.
That's definitely possible.
In terms of the other questions, the information that we've got for this thing is this is not a dirigible in the usual understanding of dirigible.
This is a very sturdy, high-tech, composite object.
In other words, we're not talking about just a standard dirigible that goes up to 100,000 feet.
This thing is built for those altitudes.
unidentified
Okay, what about propulsion, though?
There still should have been some noise, you know, because even if it's, you know, what, helium or whatever filled or something, that light that makes it float, it still has to have some kind of propulsion.
Yeah, and you know, some of the eyewitnesses and some of the witnesses that report these objects do talk about a very low-frequency hum sometimes associated.
Some people say, yeah, these things are silent, but other people talk about a very barely discernible hum.
Well, I know that we have come a long way with sound cancellation technology.
So it might be possible to virtually cancel or nearly cancel the sound of propulsion, I suppose, on the ground.
We're making so many advances that it's getting more and more difficult to discern U.S. experimental aircraft, certainly, from those that would be from another planet.
And that's saying something all by itself, isn't it?
And I think we're right in the middle of that whole thing with this black triangle enigma.
Now, one thing I did not mention is that the United Kingdom has also had a huge number of black triangle sightings beginning in 96, or actually 94, 95.
So they've had at least as many as the United States has.
I definitely have heard that before, that it would almost go back to the valet hypothesis of deliberate absurdity, that it's part of some kind of a learning curve, which is not inconsistent with this whole leaky embargo thing.
That game playing and all of that is part of psychology, is part of learning.
It could be toying with us or it could be attempting to educate us in some way.
We've noticed when we were on the property in northeastern Utah, many, many, many of the occurrences appeared to be like some kind of a head game.
And I think that the ripping out of the wires out of the cameras, like I described there a while back, fits exactly into that category.
My guest is Paul Kelliher, and we're actually on a significant, in fact, a profound, I guess, journey trying to find the truth, a very elusive truth in what's really going on.
Tomorrow night, for example, I'm going to be interviewing a very interesting fellow called George Green, who has had contact with aliens, and it's another very close contact case, and it'll be fascinating to interview him.
But it's one more in a very long line of all this anecdotal evidence and no physical evidence.
It's incredibly frustrating for researchers and people who report on this sort of thing.
And I hope, Columb, in your tenure, that something resolves.
Well, I think the track record is definitely where I think it's ambiguous, and I don't see necessarily it changing all that much.
You know, the abduction, I think one of your guests mentioned abduction.
We did a so-called multiple witness study with Professor John Mack on the abduction, and we focused on multiple witnesses in order to see if there was any way of corroborating from more than one person with abduction to see, in other words, are we talking physical abduction or are we talking metaphysical abduction?
And it started off with 200 cases and various criteria focused on about 13 cases that went into in considerable depth, lots of interviews of the abductees.
And the numbers were brought down to five who were of special interest.
When those five were looked at with a lot of detail and corroboration and all of that, it turned out that under scrutiny, each of those five individuals or groups of individuals who had been abducted in the same time, same place there was sufficient ambiguity in each of those cases to
never corroborate the physical aspect of abduction so you know 200 to 13 to 5 to essentially
To zero, there was no smoking gun in that caseload that would definitively say that person X was watching as person Y was abducted or vice versa or person X and person Y were simultaneously abducted and there was corroboration of that.
Indeed, Dr. Lear and others have removed implanted things from human beings, but you maintain, Colin, do you not, that all of them can be traced to terrestrial materials of one kind or another?
I can only speak for the two implants that were examined by NIDS, and those two did not yield any evidence of being anything other than mundane.
So I know there was something like eight additional ones that were removed, but after the first two were removed, examined, put through metallurgical analysis, and the results were pretty well normal or mundane, the NIDS Science Advisory Board decided at that stage to terminate further cases of implant analysis.
According to Neil Donald Walsh and the Conversation with God trilogy that I've been reading, he states or insinuates in the book that higher evolved beings or what they call hebs are helping us some and especially the last 70 years or so and watching us for their own benefit as well because what we do or don't do affects the whole universe as a whole,
just as a tragedy in a large metropolis affects the whole nation.
And we are to learn our lessons on our own.
And that in ancient times, we had greater technology than we do now.
And we're getting close again, but we're doing the same screw-ups that we did back then that caused us to destroy ourselves then.
And their job is to not interfere because at some point we have to learn like a child on our own.
Do you think that the prime directive, Colm, is valid?
In other words, not to interfere in any way to watch, perhaps to, well, I don't know, I guess not interfere in any physical manner with our development.
If that is the case, then why are we being inundated with UFO sightings and close encounters, interactions with beings, communications, all of that, of everything except physical evidence, in other words?
So you would imagine if there was a scenario like the gentleman suggested, then why would we even observe these craft?
I mean, there is a display aspect to the UFO phenomenon.
There always has been.
Clearly.
You know, these things are floating down interstate highways at 300 feet in altitude where they're being witnessed by hundreds of people.
So even that fact alone is a form of communication, even though it does not, you know, doesn't entail physical evidence that we can hang our hat on.
Colin, are you familiar yet with the case in Montana a little over a year ago, the Tally Farrell case, the Red Angus cowhead that you worked on for a number of months?
Yes.
Do you know what your final conclusion was on that?
Final conclusion on that was there was a compound called oxendole that was found at higher levels in the eye fluid of that animal than a sham mutilated animal.
And by sham mutilated animal, I mean an animal that was retrieved from the slaughterhouse, left on the ground in a protected way away from scavengers and predators for two or three days, just like the teleferro animal was left.
And then that eye fluid was put through exactly the same chemical analysis.
when we did that experiment we found in the mutilated animal up in montana that um oxendol seemed to be present in the uh in the eye fluid of that animal now oxendol yeah Oxendole is a, at high levels, is a sedative.
It will cause animals or humans to lose consciousness.
So one possibility of finding oxendol in that animal was that the oxendol was used as a sedative.
Now, I should also mention that at very low levels, oxendol is present in these animals, but not at the levels that we found it at.
And how do you regard his research, specifically with his ability to delineate between crop circles that have been hoaxed and those that he regards as genuine?
Yes, but with regard to what appears to be microwave radiation or whatever the effect is, is it a good measure, do you believe, Colm, in delineating between the man-made bologna and the real McCoy?
In order to really answer that question properly, what I would love to do, and it has never been done to my knowledge, is to take the same plants that Dr. Levengood has looked at and look at them from a completely different angle, in other words, a cellular angle, in order to see if what Dr. Levengood has found is corroborated.
And we have never done that because most of the focus that NIDS has focused on has been on the UFO topic.
Yes, we've had several reports of allegedly these objects flying right down into, say, a mountain or something and not crashing.
Or we've also had reports of objects coming out of the sea, the seawater, or going into.
We've had several objects actually that were detected underwater by submarine sonar moving in excess of 50 knots, which, you know, and this was mostly in the China Sea back in the 1950s where these objects, you know, this kind of technology was not available.
They would seem to move through the earth when they do and through the sea, just as we would move almost through the air, you know, in some sort of airplane.
It just doesn't seem to matter to them.
The density of the ocean or of the land versus the air is as if it didn't exist, you know, the difference.
Yeah, and that was one of the reports I'm thinking of, specifically in the China Sea, was monitoring that with sonar because apparently propellers make cavitation patterns in the water.
And these were not detected from these objects that were moving at greater than 50 knots.
So whatever propulsion was being used was not the standard propeller propulsion.