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April 24, 2004 - Art Bell

02:51:11

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Colm Kelleher - Black Triangle Phenomena

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	Music From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I
	bid you all good, well, evening, morning, afternoon, whatever the time may be, in whatever time zone you reside
	in, because we cover all of them, one way or the other, with this program, Coast to Coast AM, the weekend version
	begins.
	Well, I don't know how many of you have seen it yet.
	Obviously quite a few because I've been sent, oh I don't know, about a thousand links to it.
	The Drudge Report.
	And as a result of the Drudge Report headline, it is right at the very top of the Drudge Report, we're going to have this hour, in a moment, my co-author, or his co-author, whatever, of the coming global superstorm now of course uh... spawning a movie based in part on the coming global superstorm called the day after tomorrow and uh... right at the top the drug report it says along with a picture of the city under siege by tornadoes coming superstorm
	Fox Climate Change Movie Irks Bush Administration Ice Age Outrage!
	Saturday, April 24th, 2004, 10.05.27.
	federal agency employees not to comment publicly on Fox's new summer fuss film
	the day after tomorrow a 125 million dollar disaster movie on global warming
	the flick which depicts how accumulating smokestack and tailpipe gases set off an
	instant ice age is set to open May 28th Few climate experts think such prospect is likely.
	The New York Times is, however, planning to report on Sunday According to newsroom sources at the Drudge Report, but the prospect that moviegoers might be alarmed or will be alarmed enough to blame the Bush administration for inattention to climate change has stirred alarm at the space agency.
	Now get this, quote, no one from NASA is to do interviews or to otherwise comment on anything having to do with a film.
	Set an April 1st message to employees.
	Developing.
	That's what Matt usually adds at the bottom of any story about this sort of thing.
	Developing.
	Well, it's developing all right.
	I have a lot of comments on this.
	I suspect Whitley does as well.
	And so, you know, a million people have sent me links.
	So now I'm in trouble with George Bush.
	Well, great.
	Actually, I kind of like George Bush.
	Minus a couple of things.
	As far as inattention to climate change is concerned, yes, I do have a big concern with that, a really big one.
	Whether it's accumulating smokestack or tailpipe stuff, I have no idea.
	This may be an absolute cyclical change and have nothing to do with anything man does, or it may.
	As I have always preached, I really don't know.
	I really don't know.
	What I do know is that It appears to be happening, and it appears to be underway right now, so the book and the movie are both rather timely.
	in a moment would leave streeters stay right there
	by the way if you check out my webcam photo on top of the coast was a m dot com
	uh... just up at the upper left hand corner corner and click on webcam
	You'll see me happily holding up.
	I went trudging into Walmart the other day looking for a book.
	I'm an avid reader.
	I devour, I don't know, just a book every two days or so.
	And look at what I found.
	Would you look at what I found?
	The book, The Day After Tomorrow by Whitley Strieber, done from the screenplay of the movie that is about to uh... descend upon the bush administration here is what we
	should author of all g all kinds of books
	uh... zillions of books now a very prolific author indeed one of my
	favorites co-author of war day and of course uh... the day after tomorrow now author of
	day after tomorrow as well uh... widely welcome to the program
	well i'm glad to be here are uh...
	urgent hq direction began a message email on april one two dozens of
	scientists and officials at nasa goddard space flight center in greenbelt
	maryland uh... at
	That is the lead in a story that has just been published on the New York Times website within the past few minutes.
	Oh, really?
	And it is about the movie.
	It goes on to say, no one from NASA is to do interviews or otherwise comment on anything having to do with the film.
	So it's true!
	said the April 1 message which was sent by Goddard's top press officer.
	Any news media wanting to discuss science fiction versus science fact about climate change will need to seek comment from individuals or organizations not associated with NASA, which is quite amazing.
	Down at the bottom of the story it says, if environmentalists distance themselves from the movie they will be squandering a gift, said Dr. Daniel B. Botkin.
	An emeritus professor of ecology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, quote, I think it's a good educational opportunity that we should treat a disaster movie as entertainment and not get upset that it's a distortion.
	But $125 million on global warming must be a record for publicizing the issue.
	So, it's interesting, this article by Andrew C. Revkin, unless this is a Shortened version in the online edition.
	He interviewed me for over an hour and our book Neither our book nor the interview is mentioned a word of it in the article.
	Hmm Somebody Lewis in San Diego writes.
	Hey, hey art of all the subjects you've covered on coast over the years Nothing has ever produced an official response from Washington.
	Not quite true.
	There are a couple things I've done Anyway, their reaction to global superstorm is all the evidence needed to confirm that Ewan Whitley got it right.
	Actions speak much louder than words.
	Lewis, San Diego.
	Well, on my website, as of about two hours ago, if you go to unknowncountry.com and click on the Mind Frame section, you will see the latest Whitley's journal, which is Sudden Climate Change Has Begun.
	The process is underway.
	The weather that we are seeing across the United States right now is a result of this change, and I can be real specific about what I mean.
	Last summer, a strange thing happened on the U.S.
	East Coast all the way from Maine down to Florida.
	When people went swimming, it was suddenly really cold, and they were mystified.
	We were not mystified, and the reason we weren't was we'd been watching the Gulf Stream change its course over the past couple of years.
	And the result of this is that cold water from the polar seas was kind of leaking, if you will, all the way down the coasts of Florida.
	And to me, this meant the next thing that we would find out would be somebody who was out there studying this was going to say the currents were slowing down.
	No less than Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute ridiculed on some talk shows as being a liberal thing, where they get that, I don't know.
	No, they're just scientific.
	It's just scientific!
	The thing is, it has nothing to do with the ideology of nature.
	Two and two always equals four, no matter how much you yell.
	Unless you're a politician, then you can make it five, if you have to.
	Yeah, until people look up and notice that the clouds are getting kind of dark.
	But anyway, sure enough, Woods Hole said that the changes, the slowing of the North Atlantic current was astounding, and now NASA has just announced a couple of days ago... The satellites confirm it.
	A critical part of the system called the subpolar gyre has been slowing for a long time.
	We're seeing the consequences of it now in the weather pattern in America, in my opinion.
	That is to say, we basically are still in a, we've had a very long, very harsh winter.
	We're still in a winter weather pattern in this country.
	Meanwhile, in the tropics, all that warm air is literally becoming, it's becoming warmer and warmer, and it's being forced to the south, because the jet stream still has not changed to a summer pattern, even though late.
	Now, when it does change, Over the next few weeks, it can't be more than a few more weeks, you're going to see, I think, quite violent weather.
	I don't know how violent or how complex the storms, but we just saw a couple of big supercells pop up in Oklahoma yesterday.
	A couple.
	I'll tell you something, Lee, as you know, I'm a ham operator.
	The static was absolutely unmanageable.
	We took a look at the lightning map and Some of the forecasts, and you're right about supercells, they were actually across most of Texas and Oklahoma, and oh my God, Whitley, it was a terror what was going on there.
	Just a terror.
	We were up all night, my wife and I. Not all night, but until 3 o'clock in the morning, just because of the continuous lightning and the racket of the storms that were taking place here in San Antonio.
	Well, you know, it's fair to say, I mean, in spring there are always storms and tornadoes.
	In the Midwest, I mean, that happens.
	It just happens.
	However, the ferocity and frequency of these is obviously increasing.
	The changes are obviously occurring.
	And you don't see blizzards?
	In Denver?
	Not to that extent, this late in the season, normally.
	I mean, it's not unknown.
	None of it.
	Because, you know, there's nothing going on right now that is totally unknown.
	That may not remain true.
	And I'll tell you why not.
	One of the things that, as you recall, when we were doing research on Superstorm, that we found was a certain kind of iffy amount of evidence that there had been an event in the past Where I think, as I recall, we found a study of about an apple tree or something that had been frozen in full bloom north of the Arctic Circle and never thawed out for thousands of years.
	And this, when we were writing our book, this was generally kind of discounted as being scientifically impossible.
	No longer.
	Last year, in Peru, a plant was found buried in a glacier That had been inundated with snow so quickly that it had not rotted.
	It had literally frozen where it stood, meaning that the snows that had caused this glacier had dropped within a matter of hours.
	The plant did not reappear for 5,000 years.
	Now, caught in the same disaster apparently across the world in Europe was the famous Iceman who was inundated with snow and didn't thaw out again for 5,000 years.
	So something happens during these climactic events.
	At that time there was a brief period of sudden climate change that didn't really evolve into anything.
	It may have been caused by Dust from a comet, we're not really sure what caused it, but it lasted about a century then.
	But what we know is that during the course of it, there were these extraordinary events where there was fundamental change that lasted until the current period.
	We have no idea at all what that weather process is.
	We have never seen it before.
	Well, I guess I would like to make it clear, in the Drudge story it says, the film depicts how accumulating smokestack and tailpipe gases sets off an instant ice age.
	I am not really comfortable saying that, and I don't necessarily believe that at all.
	It's not what the movie says, either.
	I've read the script.
	I know, but my point is, and I really want to make this clear, this could be a normal, cyclical, however many thousand years event.
	It could be aided or sped up by the hand of man, or it could be, indeed, the hand of man that is bringing this one on.
	I wouldn't have the slightest idea.
	I've been trying to get past that argument.
	Yeah, me too.
	Because it's not relevant.
	It's not relevant?
	Not once it happens?
	It's happening.
	Yeah.
	And we have needed to plan for this for 20 years.
	And another thing, everyone is leaping on the Bush administration.
	What about the Clinton administration?
	They didn't say anything about it.
	What about the previous Bush administration?
	What about the Reagan administration?
	Going on back, the Carter administration.
	These issues were already present in the mid-80s when I wrote my book, Nature's End.
	Nobody cared then, nobody anywhere in the world.
	The only leadership, real leadership, that has been ever shown in this area is the previous Canadian Prime Minister.
	And what did he come up with?
	With the Canadian Prime Minister's plan, which is a plan which individuals can carry out in their homes at no cost to industry at all.
	That any world leaders, if any of those presidents had come up to the table and said, let's take this seriously, we would have at least, whether this is a cyclical event we can't prevent or not, we could have reduced our own carbon dioxide output considerably.
	Sure.
	And nobody did it.
	If anyone wants to find out about it, it's on the QuickWatch section of my website and you can The whole plan is just laid out right there.
	And if you want to do it in your own home, you can.
	It's not hard.
	It's not expensive.
	Well, anyway, I kind of agree with the fellow who sent me the email.
	If we hadn't hit something very hard on the head, I mean, you never see an administration through NASA or its own devices come out and sort of preemptively go at a movie the way they're going at this one.
	You just don't ever see that till now.
	Do you?
	Well, I saw it actually.
	It happened to me when I wrote War Day.
	Well, really?
	Yeah, they got very annoyed because at the time, the administration was beating the drums that limited nuclear war was winnable and survivable.
	I remember that period, yes.
	Yeah, and War Day reminded everyone that, yeah, that might be true, but it was going to still be Kind of unpleasant.
	And it sort of killed the idea of hardening American industrial sites and stuff that was floating around at the time.
	Yeah, the administration was very annoyed, and it became known as the War Day Scenario when it was eventually adopted by some of the scientists involved, Dr. Costa Cipis and so forth, and their strategy of Provoking the Soviet Union into a limited nuclear war was shelved, basically.
	So I've been there.
	It's very disturbing in a way because, of course, living here in San Antonio, I have a lot of friends who are close to the Bushes, and I know them to be wonderful people.
	I know a lot of partisan people who say you have to hate Bush or you have to love Bush.
	But let me give you an idea of what I mean by wonderful people.
	A few months ago, the son of a friend, who also was a friend of the Bushes, was in a very bad situation with cancer.
	And as busy as George W. Bush was, He took time out.
	This guy, he could have been, he's alright now, he's in remission now, but he was, at the time, believed to be dying.
	And he wanted to go in the White House and to just see the White House.
	So, a little tour was arranged for him.
	The White House was closed at the time because of the terrorism threat.
	Right.
	And he and his new wife and his mother-in-law went to the White House, and soon enough, they were ushered into the Oval Office.
	The President spent half an hour with this young couple, simply out of the goodness of his heart, as busy as he is, simply to say to this young man and to give him hope.
	And it was extraordinary.
	Now, I tell this story on purpose now, because we're in the middle of a battle, and the President has been, it's hard, For an administration to change its position on something.
	But I think they will change their position on this.
	I think they have to.
	Well, I'm not anti-Bush.
	Period.
	In fact, I'm sort of apolitical.
	I look at situations not... I'm not full of political frothing ideology at all.
	But with regard to what's going on right now with the climate, I guess There is no choice.
	You're going to bump into the politicians when you begin talking about something of this magnitude.
	Well, you are, especially in the case of an administration who has taken, which is said, there is no such thing as global warming, and has even gone so far as to send a memo to Congress to supportive congressmen saying that, you know, how to kind of spin this during the course of the campaign.
	And unfortunately, I think that they need to change their position on this.
	That this is something that we need to address and something we can do something about, probably.
	That is their firm position?
	There is no such thing as global warming?
	At the moment.
	But I think before the election that's going to change.
	In fact, I could guarantee it almost.
	Well, how does that statement square with the ice at the north part of the world and the ice at the south part of the world melting really fast?
	Well, the thing is, Art, I was looking through my old journal entries, and I was saying on last August that this was beginning to happen, and it would be fairly soon, and I was thinking about back when we were working on the book, we were figuring that 25 years hence, not 4 or 5, Yes, and certainly not coincident with the opening of the movie on May 28th.
	And this is not a promo.
	Well, I guess it is a promo for the movie, but a sort of one that has to be told because of what's actually happening.
	we'll be right back Adumumba
	Adumumba Adumumba
	In the end, we are so far, I mean, not at all you
	you I
	I Can you hear my heartbeat in this home?
	Be it silent sound smell or touch the something inside that we need so much
	the side of the touch or the scent of the sound or the strength of an oak that moves deep in the ground
	you The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
	Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
	To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing.
	And all these things in our memories haunt And they use them to come to find
	I'm from Australia I say so, take this place, on this trip, just for me.
	Ride, take a free roll, take my place, up by the sea, it's for free.
	Wanna take a ride?
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1224.
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	International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country Sprint Access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll free 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	Oh, we're on a ride, alright.
	Believe me, we're on a ride.
	It's like we're on a rollercoaster.
	Ever been on one?
	It's like we're sitting there in one of the first cars.
	A big rollercoaster.
	And this ride's already underway, folks.
	A little while ago, you felt the first little jerk, and you started up that first mountainous hill.
	And you're kind of chugging along.
	You're almost at the top of the hill, and you're almost ready to look down on that big plunge that you're about to take.
	Oh yeah!
	We're on a ride!
	Whitley Strieber, back in a moment.
	Right under the photograph on the Drudge Report of the city under siege, it says, Coming Superstorm.
	Fox's climate change movie irks Bush administration.
	Ice age outrage!
	That's what it says.
	Uh, so, you know, I guess, Whitley, it's gonna be, it looks like, um, I mean, all I've seen, of course, is the, is the trailer, so far, which is, is to stand the hair right up in the back of your neck, for sure, and I, I don't know whether it's really going to turn out to be an outrage for the administration or not.
	I, I think the fact that There has been no attention to what's going on with the climate from the political side.
	There's been plenty of late from the scientific side, but that there has been none from the political side is an outrage.
	Well now, there is an article that just appeared literally in the past few minutes on the Minneapolis Star Tribune website saying that NASA has changed its position.
	Gretchen Cook-Anderson, the NASA spokesperson, said the agency would make scientists available to discuss issues raised by the film.
	What?
	So this is in the space of since we've been on the air?
	Yeah, as far as I know, yeah.
	Just within the past hour, because it certainly wasn't there an hour ago.
	Well, heck, Whitley-Allen might want them on!
	Absolutely, why not?
	And, you know, Mark Gordon, the film's producer, is making some good points.
	He says that all they need to be saying is the drama of the movie is fictional, but the fact is that global warming is real.
	That's really the truth of it.
	And it's not even that... You know where this all started?
	It all started with elements in the environmental movement squaring off against people who did not want government planning And attempting to use this problem and many other problems as a way to impose a level, re-impose, in some countries, and in this country, impose a level of social planning that has been roundly rejected by mankind.
	And it's unwanted.
	And they never should have done it.
	Because it isn't about re-imposing some kind of of socialist or marxist
	planning structure on the society and forcing it in in the enforcing and making all kinds of different
	things mandatory it's really about leadership
	and that is what we don't have because there is so much the individual
	can do it his own life and that's where it absolutely has to start
	unfortunately uh... were mortal beings and were around the planet for eighty to
	a hundred and some odd years whatever That's it.
	And we're gone.
	Politicians have a greater mortality.
	They're there for four or eight years or even longer.
	And then they're gone.
	And then they're gone.
	And so planning tends to take place for, you know, if you're an individual, our short lifetimes.
	If you're a politician, the planning is for a much shorter time yet.
	And yeah, and the point of our book was, yes, we did concentrate on something that's probably going to unfold over a 10-year period into a short time for the purposes of telling the story, and they did the same thing in the movie.
	But nevertheless, that kind of planning that you're talking about should have started many years ago, because what we could be seeing really unfolding Yes, and nobody is saying this is not survivable.
	a change in climate that's going to leave the growing season all over Europe and North
	America much shorter.
	Yes, and nobody is saying this is not survivable.
	What we're trying to pound in again and again is that with planning, it's much more survivable
	and so many lives could be saved if we began to realize what's going on and shifted our
	agricultural patterns and adjusted.
	And adjusted, right.
	And if we spent the time and energy above all to find out exactly what's going on, because one of the great problems is that we don't really know.
	And unfortunately, one of the things that's been happening in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is that the paleoclimate research budget is being cut back.
	Oh good.
	And that's exactly the kind of thing we absolutely do not need.
	Because that is where we can go to look for models for planetary and climatic conditions that were similar to now so we can tell what the future may bring.
	Well here's the part I don't get with the barrage of mainstream scientific recent uh... alerts that have been issued woods hole and such uh... why uh... parallel with that would be uh... administration be so solidly still on this it's not happening thing this is an administration like a few others uh... uh... like it's a lot like oddly enough the last texas administration the johnson administration in this respect the tremendous amount of trouble
	Changing its direction.
	They really have trouble saying, we want to do this another way now, this is not working right.
	Or even we could have been wrong and the science is now here.
	God forbid we were wrong.
	And Lyndon Johnson couldn't do that.
	And George, maybe it's something in the culture of Texas that makes it hard for people to do that.
	No, I think it's in a lot of human beings.
	Once you take a very firm position, It's very hard to say, oops, I was wrong.
	But I mean, the science, the amount of science coming out lately, some pretty dire stuff.
	It's overwhelming.
	It is overwhelming, yes.
	And so to continue to take that position, well, at least they're going to let NASA talk.
	That's amazing.
	I mean, it's just a few hours.
	Do you suppose the fact that it broke on drudge caused somebody in the administration to say, oops, this is going to look really bad.
	I guess we better let them talk.
	Well, I think they've been aware of the film for a while.
	I think they've been aware of the film since the beginning of the month.
	And I know from a friend that some copies of our book and of The Day After Tomorrow have been in the White House.
	I doubt you'll be very amazed if the President has read them, but I'm sure somebody has.
	And so it's definitely an issue that they're planning in one way or another to deal with.
	And unfortunately right now, what it looks like they're going to do is to deal with it by saying it's all nonsense and this is just fiction and it couldn't possibly happen.
	And what's so troubling to me is the scientific consensus is that sudden climate change is very much of a reality, but that it couldn't be this big, this violent, or this sudden.
	I'm just troubled by those plants under the glacier in... Exactly!
	I mean there's a lot of scientific evidence that it has happened before.
	That should be part of their calculations.
	What's troubling to me is something unknown has happened before and we are not really looking at that at all because nobody really wants to and I don't know what it would be like actually if whatever that was blew up again but You know, even with the mammoths that have been so thoroughly debunked in North of the Arctic Circle, the fact remains that the fossils, however the animals died, the fossils were found in their mouths with temperate zone plants.
	They had been eating, and they certainly could never have eaten in that place again from the day they died until the day they were unearthed.
	And so, whatever happened Happened very suddenly, even if it was only over a few days, it happened suddenly, and it was effectively permanent.
	And if you look at what happened in Peru, the scientists who looked at those plants are saying it happened really very suddenly, and to get to the story, you just go to my website and put Peru in the search engine, and you'll find the story immediately.
	Well, all of this evidence, I mean, whether it's the Contemporary Woods Hole stuff, or whether it's archaeological evidence that is so clear, or any of the rest of it, it just seems so overwhelming when you add it up with what's happening right now for them to be still just not coming off that position at all.
	There's an urgent need for more study, and an absolutely urgent need.
	Not a moment to be cutting back budgets.
	No, no.
	To look at the paleoclimate and find out just exactly what did happen in Peru, and to determine exactly what that was, because you have six billion people living here now, and if that happens to anybody anywhere, it's going to be a real catastrophe.
	Do me a favor and see if you can get a ticket to the movie over to Matt Lauer at NBC.
	Listen, let's change subjects for a second.
	Since I've got you here, Whitley, coming up in the next hour, I've got Colm Culler, and we're going to be talking... I noticed that they put up a photograph of one of these black triangles.
	Black triangles are hot stuff right now.
	Actually, they have been for a long time.
	And that was the one sighting my wife and I had.
	So I put our... actually, an artist's rendition of To Scale, actually, of exactly what my wife and I saw.
	So you see our little red car and we're there.
	I'm pointing up at this thing, which is exactly what I did.
	This black triangle thing is everywhere right now.
	And what do you know about the ufology of the moment?
	I mean, what's going on?
	Well, I am actually involved with a couple of things that are really interesting and strange.
	One of them is a story that we just received from an unknown country reader in Germany, and I'm looking at it right now.
	This will go up on Monday, the day after tomorrow, on our site.
	Over Ramstein Air Force Base, on January the 22nd, there was a really odd phenomenon.
	What it was was seven pillars of light.
	At first, they were balls of light, and then they became pillars of light that were coming down from above.
	They would become fainter when clouds passed overhead, and then brighter when there were no clouds, meaning that they were coming, shining down from above.
	Right.
	There were auroras in the atmosphere at the time, but this is no aurora.
	that these things were absolutely stationary and they lasted
	all night for approximately eleven thirty
	p.m. until they dissipated as the morning sky in the morning sky
	and what what the odd thing was it eleven p m there was a square shadow
	visible in the sky and during the night
	was cordless phones internet quit working of
	the lights dot worse dot brighter and
	and here's the part that's fascinating There seems to be kind of an electromagnetic effect connected with it.
	Now, recently in Italy, in Sicily, there has been a bizarre event taking place involving spontaneous fires breaking out in electrical appliances, primarily in electrical appliances and in cars and things.
	Yeah, I saw something on your website about that.
	Yeah, in a town there where Even things that are cut off and isolated are bursting into flames.
	And there's a major scientific effort taking place in the town now.
	Trying to figure out why?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Do you think that it could be electromagnetic radiation of some sort?
	Well, again, I think it's probably not UFO related.
	I think it's probably a natural phenomenon.
	And, again, if you want to find out more, go to the website, go to the search engine, which is on the left-hand column about midway down the page, and just put in the word, Sicily.
	S-I-C-I-L-Y, and you'll get all these stories right away.
	But in any case, it's disturbing to me, because it, again, is a suggestion of the presence of a very bizarre, unknown phenomenon that is, in the case of Italy, at least they're studying it.
	But I doubt very much that if, for example, it happened here in the United States, there would be any study.
	Everyone would immediately be saying, well, it must be this or it must be that.
	Why do you think the United States is so predisposed to, I don't know, being such skeptics about Any of this sort of material, why do you suppose that is?
	We are that way, and other countries are not.
	There's a culture of denial connected.
	It's very powerful in this country.
	A good example is in archaeology.
	In India, the Indian archaeological community is working hard to do undersea archaeology on this extraordinary apparent city that was found submerged in the Indian Ocean.
	American archaeologists won't touch it, because it violates established theory.
	It shouldn't be there.
	And we have another case, a very, very fascinating case, of a skull that has been in the Archaeological Museum in Mexico City for a very long time, since the 50s, Apparently, it looks like an anus skull, a Japanese skull.
	It's carbon dated to about 13,000 years ago, suggesting heresy, of heresies, that seafarers from Japan came to Mexico that long ago.
	Oh yes.
	Now, this attempt to get this skull studied within the U.S.
	community failed again and again, but now the equipment necessary to do The kind of DNA study that is needed is available in Mexico, so they're going to do it themselves.
	And we will know, as the archaeologist involved said very simply, once we have this skull studied, we will know for certain whether or not people came from Japan.
	And somehow, in the culture of science in our country, we've crossed a line between wanting to know The truth, whether or not it fits theory, to only wanting to know the truth if it fits theory.
	Indeed, and I don't know how that happens to science within maybe a very strong, powerful nation like ours gets stodgy and maybe the academic community tends to get stodgy and why careers are You know, held on certain theories, and if those theories get in trouble, then, you know, the feeling is the career gets in trouble, too, and so... Well, that's right.
	It's very true.
	In this country, if you make an assertion against theory that proves to be wrong, your career is in jeopardy.
	And that's really not true in other societies at all.
	It seems so counterintuitive, though, to what science claims it is.
	It slows down the progress of scientific discovery, there's no question about it.
	But still, the United States has a magnificent scientific community.
	And there are certain areas, such as physics, where these rules don't apply, and phenomenal progress is being made every day.
	Incredible stuff is being done.
	Well, it's going to be very interesting to see where this... I mean, here we are, a full month ahead of the movie, and already there's this incredible controversy swirling around it.
	I wonder what's going to happen when it actually comes out.
	Well, I'm hearing that the Day After Tomorrow book is just literally flying off the shelves all over the world.
	It's coming out in different countries.
	No doubt.
	Yeah, and I'm sure Superstorm will be, too, because it's going to be coming out side-by-side with it worldwide.
	Well, when that hits and then, of course, the movie actually comes out, I wonder if that is how this will be perceived, if there'll be a backlash against the current administration in Washington because of it.
	Well, there'll be two things.
	You will find that the... I mean, it's going to be There'll be a certain polarization.
	The supporters of the administration are going to be laughing at the movie and saying it's a load of nonsense.
	And most people are going to be saying, hey, wait a minute, maybe we should really look at this.
	All right, listen.
	As always, it's wonderful to have you here and in view of what's coming in more ways than one.
	Why, you'll be here a lot in the very near future, so Whitley... Well, I'm gonna settle down now and listen to you in comb, I can hardly wait.
	Alright, take care.
	Good night.
	Alright, that's Whitley Strieber, everybody.
	Author, co-author of the coming global superstorm, along with myself, and of course, based in part on the movie, which is coming out May 28th, called The Day After Tomorrow.
	from the high desert in the middle of the night.
	That's where we are. I'm Art Bell.
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	It is indeed.
	Colm Gallaher is Administrator of NIDS.
	That's the National Institute for Discovery Science, and has led The investigative project of NIDS for over, actually, seven years now.
	NIDS is the only fully-funded organization in the entire U.S.
	that employs full-time Ph.D.-level scientists on staff.
	NIDS also has a world-class science advisory board with 15 members drawn from many, many branches of science.
	Hiller, as a Ph.D.
	in biochemistry, also Wet Lab Research Experience in Molecular Biology, Virology, and Biochemistry.
	He has led both the UFO investigative arm of NIDS as well as NIDS research into cattle mutilations.
	We're going to talk about the enigmatic black triangle phenomena.
	That's one of the very few things that I talk about on this program that I've had intimate personal experience with myself, and I mean As intimate as anybody would ever want to have.
	And I suppose one last time, one last time, I'll tell you about that in the course of this discussion coming right up.
	All right.
	One last time, and very quickly, just before Colm takes to the air here.
	One night many years ago now, I worked in Las Vegas for KADWN Radio at that time.
	And I used to commute back and forth from here to Las Vegas every single day.
	Well, Ramona and myself were on the way home, and Impact had almost made it home.
	Not more than, oh, I don't know, a quarter, half mile at the most from here, as we were making one of the last turns toward the house.
	Ramona, who was in the driver's seat, said, what the hell is that?
	And I said, what do you mean?
	And she said, behind us.
	So I pulled the car over and stopped on the side of the road.
	We had a little Geo Metro, a red Geo Metro at that time.
	We still have a Geo Metro, by the way.
	And pulled over to the side of the road and we both got out and stood and watched this incredible, incredible black triangle approaching us from the rear was still approaching at that point as we stood by the car and I'm telling you folks this mama was big it was pure black it could not have been more than you know I'd estimate a hundred and fifty feet above us it was monstrous as it passed overhead the stars in the nearly full moon at the time went away you know just like in the movie close encounters or whatever this thing
	Couldn't have been doing more than about 30 or 40 miles an hour and maybe less.
	I'd say maybe 30 miles an hour.
	It was not flying, not as a conventional aircraft would fly.
	It was floating.
	Not only was it floating or defying gravity, however you wish it, it was making no noise whatsoever, no apparent propulsion system whatsoever.
	It was so quiet you could hear crickets a quarter of a mile away, a half mile away.
	And it was so close, I felt like I could have thrown a rock at it, but you know, I didn't.
	I was so shocked.
	And so, I guess I was actually, we were both actually in shock, and it passed directly over our heads, and kept on going in a west-northwesterly direction, roughly toward what we know as Area 51 out here, just over the mountain range from me.
	But there's no question about what it was.
	There's also no question about what it is not.
	Now, we were not the only ones to have seen it in the Valley this night.
	Many people in the Valley saw it and reported it.
	And the newspaper out here made a call to Nellis Air Force Base.
	In fact, I didn't even report it to the newspaper.
	This was in the next week's paper, you know, that Nellis had been called because so many people had seen this.
	And Nellis responded with something like, and I'm paraphrasing, Yes, it was possible that a secret mission overflew the Pahrump Valley on that date or that evening, but that it was a C-130 aircraft.
	That's right, a C-130 aircraft.
	And I tell you folks, I was in the Air Force and I rode in C-130s and they're really big prop pitch airplanes.
	They make a lot of noise and would have rattled my teeth.
	And I can absolutely assure you, what I looked up and saw, what Ramona looked up and saw, was a large, black, metallic-looking... You know what?
	I should retract that.
	Large, black, I can't say metallic-looking.
	You just sort of think metal, because that's generally what aircraft are made out of, right?
	But it was large, black, silent, and Either defying gravity or floating.
	That's what we saw.
	I made all the reports you're supposed to make to the various agencies.
	And I was embarrassed for the Air Force in coming up with that explanation for what had been a C-130.
	And then I thought very hard about it before I went on the air, because I talk about this kind of thing.
	That's what this program is all about.
	The unusual.
	Well, this was really unusual.
	And I thought very hard about it.
	Should I even report that I've seen something like this, even though I had my wife with me?
	Because doing this kind of a program, people are going to go, oh, come on.
	Sorry.
	That's what I saw.
	And ultimately, I decided I should tell the truth and tell what I saw.
	And that's how we're going to start out the conversation, talking about these for real.
	And they are for real.
	I can't say that about a lot of things I talk about on the air, because I don't know it to be true.
	I know what I saw, and it was a large black triangle so close to me, Collin, that if I'd had senses of me about me, I could have thrown a rock at the thing, just about.
	Yeah, that sounds like a really spectacular sighting.
	What year was that, by the way?
	I knew you'd ask that.
	I don't remember.
	It could have been...
	Ten years ago?
	You know, Ramona will rush in eventually and tell me probably, but yeah, in that range, right.
	Because we got interested in the black triangle phenomenon, and your case sounds almost identical to the standard issue description that we've got for I think we're running up towards 500 separate sightings of these objects all around the United States.
	But what really began the Black Triangle phenomenon from our perspective was the famous Illinois, St.
	Louis, Missouri sightings that happened on January 2000.
	And that was on the morning, the early morning of January 5th.
	We got a call from a A police officer in Highland, Illinois, who was reporting this, exactly what you've described, this gigantic, silent triangle that had just gone over, and it was heading in a southwesterly direction from Highland to Lebanon, and then it actually passed over the outer perimeter of Scott Air Force Base, which is one of the larger Air Force bases in the area.
	Heading in a southwesterly direction.
	As you mentioned, about 30 miles an hour.
	Making no attempt to be stealthy.
	And it had a lot of bright lights on it, too.
	The interesting thing about this was the cop who had called it in also radioed on ahead to the next precinct and told them, you know, get outside and wait for this thing.
	You're going to see a light show in a minute.
	And that's exactly what they did.
	Police officers in four separate precincts On that same morning, I saw this same object heading in a southwesterly direction, no more than two or three hundred feet above the ground and completely silent.
	This thing was emitting very, very strong light and it was a rough, triangular, wedge-shaped thing about the size of a football field.
	On the website tonight, I saw the NIDS photograph.
	I just couldn't resist putting up my own following our sighting.
	We had quite a long discussion with an artist in order to provide an absolutely or as close to absolutely accurate picture right down to the geography and the mountains in the background and the whole schmear as we could.
	And so what you see there really is exactly, precisely what we saw.
	And I guess, like everybody else, I want to know what we're dealing with here.
	What is it NIDS believes we're dealing with here?
	Well, we've gone through a really sort of lengthy evolution in our thinking, because when we first started gathering all of these cases, there were very much Pretty well all the same standard explanations.
	You have, I think, really well encapsulated exactly what the majority of the eyewitnesses have been telling us from all around the country.
	So these things are certainly not rare.
	We have up to almost 500 cases now.
	And how long have you been getting the reports?
	Well, the actual sightings go back to the 1980s.
	But as we sort of ramped up our information gathering, the vast majority of the sightings that we have in our database begin at 1998 and then just continue.
	There's a dramatic increase, 1998 to 1999, then 2000, 2001.
	It's really interesting.
	1999, then 2000, 2001. It's really interesting. There was almost 250 cases leading up to September
	2001. And then there was a dramatic fall off all through 2002.
	In 2003, they began to increase again, and in 2004, again.
	But there was a dramatic decrease, and I can only speak for our database.
	I'm not sure if that is, you know, other organizations are collecting these kinds of data, too.
	We noticed a dramatic decrease in 2002.
	All right.
	Somebody just named Kay in Los Angeles writes, You and your guest tonight should be aware that while triangle type ships are being reported more these days, there are exciting reports of these kinds of ships going back actually several centuries.
	The famous researcher Desmond Leslie lists a few dozen historical accounts, including these black triangle ships in the book Flying saucers have landed, which you no doubt own.
	I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe the sighting dates back to the 15th century, so that to me makes it rather dubious that they could be our military smile devices.
	That's a very good point, because if we have cases going back to the 1960s, and we've done A lot of backtracking since about two years ago when we had about 200 cases or so.
	We published what we thought was a correlation in terms of the Air Force military bases around the country and an apparent concentration of these Black Triangle sightings in the vicinity of those bases and also in the flight paths between these bases.
	I'm specifically talking about Air Force Materiel Command and Air Mobility Command Air Force bases.
	Now, about two or three months ago, we launched an updated review of the data with an awful lot more, a couple hundred more cases.
	Does NIDS believe, it says on the website here, that the hypothesis that I guess you are holding onto is that these BBDs, Could be lighter-than-air, blimp-like military vehicles of some kind, BBDs standing for what?
	Big Black Deltas?
	Yeah, Big Black Deltas.
	That is the hypothesis we floated a couple of years ago, yes.
	Now, I should mention, since then we have had re-examination of the data, and I can certainly say that this The data that we have right now, if you plot it on a map of the United States, and not only you plot the Air Force Materiel Command or Mobility Command bases, but you plot, you know, standard cities, highways, you name it, on the map of the United States, what you see is something really interesting.
	There is a much stronger correlation between the big black triangles and the main interstate highways in the United States, as well as the cities.
	And that really causes us to take a second look at the hypothesis of a military stealth project, because the locations of the vast majority of the new sightings that we have are located, as I mentioned, on interstate highways, which is completely inconsistent with a stealth project.
	In other words, if you take on the West Coast Interstate 5, and you begin in Vancouver, Canada, You go all the way through Seattle, and you move down to Portland, and then through Eugene, these triangular objects follow that main highway all the way down to L.A., and south of L.A., they go down to San Diego.
	There is an unmistakable association with, number one, the interstate highways, and number two, the main population centers.
	We're looking at objects that are adhering to main population.
	I mean, most of the population travels on the interstate highways as opposed to the smaller highways.
	So we are revising our hypothesis.
	Okay, that's very interesting.
	Is there any reason, any motivation that you can even dream about that would cause the military to want to have Their top secret aircraft seen by a lot of people.
	It is completely inconsistent with what happened with the B-2 bomber when it was still not talked about and unacknowledged.
	Same thing with the F-117.
	The F-117 fighter-bomber.
	uh... the the f one seventeen uh...
	fighter bomber uh... none of these craft were uh... were were flown down
	down highways now again these are these objects are not flying across the
	highways They're actually flying down the highways.
	So, in other words, it's almost like they're following the highways.
	Interstate 5 is not the only example that we have.
	If you look at the map, in Colorado you've got I-25 that runs north-south through the entire state.
	Starting off at Cheyenne in Wyoming, going all the way through Fort Collins, all the way down through Denver, down to Pueblo, you've got them dotted along that same highway.
	How many reports do you have that caused you to realize that that's where, you know, the majority of the sightings were occurring along interstates?
	Do you have a large proportion?
	I mean, when did it jolt you?
	Well, it jolted us when we added the newest data to the map, and then we flipped it from the Air Force bases.
	What we were doing was plotting the Air Force bases on the map of the United States and plotting the locations of the Black Triangle sightings.
	Up to about 200, 250, there seemed to be a correlation.
	200, 250, there seemed to be a correlation. However, with the newest groupings, and I
	should mention also we've asked Larry Hatch, who was probably one of the biggest private
	UFO databases in the world, for his data set, and also we've asked MUFON for their data
	set, and we've also plotted them on the same kinds of maps.
	So we have three separate databases, and they are looking very, very similar.
	Well, if you conclude that these are not our own craft, and you do so on the basis of the seeming public exposure they want to have, then there aren't many other choices, are there?
	There are not many other choices, but I also believe that there is a stealth craft that is being flown in and out of various locations, and it is a very large triangular object.
	I say that for several reasons.
	Number one, we have reports of these objects being seen on the ground from Tikaboo Peak, on the ground at Groom Lake.
	That's number one.
	Number two, we have reports of one of these objects on approach into Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio.
	Callum, I would sure like to know, when did the report of the triangular craft at Groom Lake, that's Area 51, folks, when did you get that?
	97, I believe.
	97.
	I'll have to check it, but it's 97.
	The eyewitness was able to triangulate how big this thing was because the landing lights, how many landing lights it blotted out.
	The one we saw had landing lights.
	In fact, folks, if you go, we're going to take a break here.
	If you go to the website, coast2coastam.com, you'll see the NIDS photograph up there.
	Then you'll see the artist's rendition very, very carefully put together in every respect of exactly what Ramona and myself saw.
	And how, you can actually see how big it appeared to our eyes from where we were.
	This thing was a monster.
	And I guarantee you folks, we really saw it.
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	I'll tell you, when you've seen something like this, it changes your view of everything, because I don't know, because you've had personal exposure to it.
	Now, Ramona was just in here reminding me that a program we were doing at the time in Las Vegas called Area 2000, a program about the unusual, to some degree funded by Robert Bigelow, we were actually doing that program when this incident occurred.
	So that may roughly date it.
	Whenever it was that Area 2000 was going on, that's when it happened.
	Robert Bigelow is a very, very wealthy man who lives in Las Vegas, Nevada, who quietly funds, oh, a great deal more than you know about.
	You know about some of it, NIDS, for example, and a lot of other scientific inquiry, some of which is made public and a lot of which, obviously, is not made public for I don't have a date for that, but my guess would be close to ten years ago.
	Yeah, so I think this incident occurred about a decade ago.
	I really think it's pretty much accurate.
	and that would date it a little bit. Do you remember offhand when that was?
	I don't have a date for that, but my guess would be close to ten years ago.
	Yeah, so I think this incident occurred about a decade ago.
	I really think it's pretty much accurate.
	So, anyway, so then you're contending that you believe some are legitimate.
	Anyway, military experimental craft and others not.
	Is that the bottom line?
	Yes, I think there's both.
	I think there is an unacknowledged aircraft because, as I mentioned, on the tarmac at Groom Lake is pretty in your face.
	Yes.
	And also on the approach to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
	Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is one of the two headquarters of these Air Mobility Command and Air Force Mobility Command, or Air Force Material Command, Scott Air Force Base being the second one.
	I was interested that you mentioned the Nellis Air Force Base.
	It said, yeah, there was a C-130 in the air.
	That was exactly what the investigators we sent out to the Illinois Sighting in January 2000.
	That's exactly what they were told from Scott Air Force Base.
	Oh, you've got to be kidding.
	We had a C-130 in the air at the time.
	I mean, this thing, according to four, actually five separate police officers, would dwarf a C-130 and completely the wrong shape.
	Not even close.
	Not even close.
	Actually, you know what?
	I was embarrassed for Nellis.
	If Nellis had said You know, we had a secret mission, which may have overflown the Pahrump Valley, and that's all they had said.
	I'd have gone, oh, okay.
	But I mean, to go on and say it was a C-130, I actually got kind of embarrassed for them and angry at the same time.
	It was like, that's embarrassing.
	It is kind of insulting, you know.
	One of the investigators we sent out to Illinois was a retired member of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations.
	And he actually gained entrance to Scott Air Force Base and was sitting in the commander's office, commander of AFOSI on Scott Air Force Base.
	And basically that's what they were told.
	They knew nothing of any unusual aircraft, but there was a C-130 in the air at the time.
	And we know from what the police officers told us that this object went right over the perimeter of Scott Air Force Base.
	And we're not talking several thousand feet.
	We're talking, you know, less than 1,000 feet.
	Well, any unidentified flying object actually having the temerity to go over a U.S.
	Air Force base, you would think would be dealt with rather quickly.
	Considering there's radar, and they would be aware by eyewitnesses if no other way that, gee whiz, there's this thing overflying our Air Force Base.
	Do we want to go up and see what it is?
	And if we don't, why don't we?
	Yeah, that's exactly right.
	Now, your caller, your listener mentioned that they go back to, or she thinks they go back to the 1500s.
	We know that there have been several waves of high-intensity, either triangular or boomerang aircraft or UFOs, whatever you want to call them, going all the way back to 1980.
	Especially the Hudson Valley Westchester Boomerang was a very famous series of sightings out in Connecticut and Putnam County, New York.
	Around 1980 to 1985, and we're talking literally thousands of eyewitnesses over that five-year period.
	And again, a lot of the eyewitnesses reported that these things were literally floating down the, I believe it's I-84 out there, just floating down the interstate, maybe three or four hundred feet.
	Sometimes just after dark, when it was still rush hour and people were stopping their cars, You know, pulling over to the side, getting out, and the artist's rendition on your website that I just pulled up is the kind of description that a lot of these people were describing.
	So, you know, multiple waves that we would say are the waves that we have monitored really began in 1998, and it's still going on.
	I know that NIDS of course deals with good hard science and tries to stay objective and brings in really world-class investigators and all the rest of that but you know there must be times when you folks sit down and discuss some of the questions that my audience would be asking and I'm asking and that is if we are being visited, Colm, and we're going to talk about cattle mutilations and all the rest of this sort of thing.
	But if we are being visited, why have they not announced themselves?
	Why toy with us in such a seemingly childish manner, you know, zooming down freeways, picking up and dismembering cows and dropping them off and, you know, perhaps creating crop circles and doing all these things that we cannot explain.
	It's almost like we're being Played with, toyed with, in some manner.
	Do you ever sit down and talk about that at NIDS?
	Well, we had a discussion, actually, a couple of weekends ago.
	A lot of the board members were in town, the NIDS Science Advisory Board members.
	There was a lot of talk about the so-called leaky embargo hypothesis, which is the idea that there is a generalized embargo.
	For galactic, if you want to call it galactic civilizations, and that one way of beginning the process of contact is the so-called leaky embargo, which is a very sort of surreptitious program to gradually let the citizens know that there's something beyond, you know, Earth.
	Let's take that for a moment.
	Do you think such a program of slow leak could work so that eventually, maybe not today or tomorrow, but in five or ten years or whatever the plan would call for, when contact actually was made, the American people would be perhaps mildly surprised, but would go, well, oh, finally.
	Or, you know, some lesser reaction than panic in what Brookings imagined might occur.
	Well, I think there's really two parts to that.
	The American people in opinion polls have really voiced their opinion time and time again that they would not feel particularly threatened by this kind of thing.
	We have run several nationwide polls run by the ROPA organization.
	And the kind of feedback that we've got is that, you know, most people would not panic.
	They would not sort of head for the hills and sort of buy lots of guns.
	They would carry on and be very cautious.
	However, the other part of that whole thing is how would the scientific community react and how would the political and religious community react?
	Religious to an extent, too.
	Sure.
	The so-called upper echelons of society.
	Scientists really have a lot more to lose in this whole game than most other people because there is a potential of the scientific viewpoint being changed fairly rapidly by the sudden appearance of aircraft that defy the laws of physics, for example.
	Yes, there would be a great upset to be sure.
	But again, my question was, just imagine that such a scenario is actually underway.
	Do you think it would be successful?
	Do you think that the Roper surveys that Robert commissioned are sort of an absolute indication that it is working?
	This slow-leak approach?
	It's really difficult to verify that because you have the ridicule factor which permeates society, which permeates especially the elite parts of society.
	So it's a really open question whether or not the political apparatus in this country is any more open to the whole concept than it was 30 or 40 years ago.
	And, you know, if you're hypothesizing a leaky embargo, this leaky embargo sort of gradual appearance scenario has been operating at full tilt since 1947, which is, what, almost 60 years now.
	Right.
	Or how about this?
	That this sort of I don't know, a spotty delivery of information that gets laughed at, and eyewitness reports that get laughed at, and all the rest of it, or even stuff that makes people sort of mildly curious, like video that's been captured and the rest of that, which is more impressive yet.
	All of this is actually sort of a military disinformation program, and that people like myself doing programs on this kind of thing, Are perhaps dupes of the military, and we're just helping them continue to see to it that their secret military projects are laughed at.
	That could well be true.
	That is superimposed on a long-term program of gradual introduction.
	This program could be a 200-year program.
	I mean, there really is no way of Assessing that because it's, you know, there's nothing to compare it against.
	But what you've just said about mixing information with disinformation, I think, is a very classic way of operating.
	The other aspect of this whole business is what Jacques Vallée would call The sort of deliberate introduction of absurdity into this equation.
	And that is, there are so many cases of UFOs doing very, very strange things.
	Or occupants of UFOs being reported to sort of do completely weird things like offering people cakes, or offering them food.
	There are several cases in France that happened in the 1950s and 1960s where that was documented.
	Sounds like a housewarming present.
	Yeah, exactly.
	There's really no logic to what happens.
	Jacques Vallée would say that that is part of a potential long-term program where the absurdity is used as a learning tool.
	Where people are exposed to absurd things, there's confusion, it's a way of psychologically insisting on learning, so to speak.
	How about this?
	Any ideas on, if this were a military craft, what its function might be?
	I mean, yes, it moves silently.
	But it was ever so visible.
	In fact, it blotted out the sky, and it was so low and so slow that, you know, you wouldn't need a golden BB to bring one of those down.
	What military application might there be?
	Well, it's strange.
	Just before the show, I got an email from this guy at an aerospace company, and what he said was, I've heard that these are triangular-shaped dirigibles that the Army, I think in brackets, are flying around.
	They are antenna arrays that are in violation of some treaties, so they're keeping them quiet.
	And then this especially makes sense, seeing that Lockheed Martin now owns Goodyear Aerospace.
	In other words, you know, we're talking about a very large blimp with extremely sophisticated antenna arrays, something that could be parked at 100,000 feet and essentially monitor everything.
	So you could park it over Afghanistan, you could park it over Iraq, and you would own every signal that's coming in and out of that area.
	Oh!
	I hadn't thought of an application of that sort.
	That's absolutely fascinating.
	You're right.
	We have satellites, but to be virtually stationary at, say, 100,000 feet, you would indeed own every transmission made by anything.
	Over a very wide geographic area, that's... Yeah, and we've had people come forward before to NIDS and say, you know, these things are designed to stay up there for weeks.
	You know, it's kind of like the equivalent of a submarine, you know, you go down under the water for weeks at a time.
	These things come in and out of, for example, Area 51, but they stay up where they're parked for weeks at a time, and they monitor.
	um... here's the other thing the other question about all this and that is uh... if the military has
	something like this and if uh...
	aliens i guess are also
	manifesting something like this in our sky uh...
	i just uh...
	i i i well where we go on with this i i i i i i I want so to know what this is about.
	I want to know what we're facing.
	If they're both up there, it confuses the issue all the more.
	So badly, I want to get to the bottom of all this while I'm still alive.
	I want to know what's going on.
	Will we know what's going on while we're still alive?
	Well, you know, if you look at this whole leaky embargo thing and you take it seriously, this could go on ad infinitum.
	Our lifetimes could be fairly small in terms of the kinds of length of time that this program could go on with.
	But, you know, one of the things that we've been looking at is Since we discovered this relationship with the interstate highways in the United States, we know that the Europeans were absolutely inundated with these black triangles, especially Belgium, in 1989 to 1990.
	I remember.
	And, you know, they went as far as launching F-16 fighters in response to these things because Their ground radar picked them up on several occasions.
	And there is a really interesting map of Belgium where all of the sightings, or many of the sightings, are plotted on that same map.
	And you can see exactly the same as in the United States.
	They conform to the main highways in the country.
	Between Liège and Huey, and also Verbier and Liège, there's Dozens and dozens of sightings that lie along the main highways.
	So, you know, something as crude and ridiculous as navigation by using these large highways may not be out of the question.
	It may almost be sort of either a display I might buy off on display, but I don't know about navigation.
	If they've got to use our interstates of signs to get from point A to point B in a triangle defying gravity, then I just don't buy that.
	Hold on, we'll be right back.
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	Enigmatic and frustrating.
	Very frustrating.
	Oh, man is doing this kind of work and this kind of program frustrating.
	This kind of material.
	Black triangles.
	Animals being mutilated and laid back down.
	Crop circles.
	Some of which, of course, we know were fake, but a lot of which were not.
	I mean, things going on on Earth that clearly point toward the possibility of our having visitors, and it is so frustrating not to know exactly what it is.
	I just can't tell you.
	You know, I think I should add that NIDS is available to you now.
	NIDS has top-level PhD scientists on staff and in the right circumstance, they will dispatch these people to any point really in the world and investigate unusual phenomena of all sorts, whether it's cattle mutilations or uh... sightings that rise to a certain level or you know i'd
	whatever they'll that they really can they have the resources the money
	to do all of this and they are almost i suppose unique in that regard and that
	they have a hotline set up at least you used to have uh...
	it's been a while since been on the show come do you still have a hotline
	we do have a hotline but uh... it's not uh... operated tonight uh...
	anytime during the the next uh... week starting monday people could call seven oh two
	seven nine eight one seven zero zero
	We do not have people manning the phones tonight.
	Gotcha.
	Area code 702-798-1700, right?
	Yes.
	All right.
	Now, what sorts of things typically rise to the level where you would dispatch somebody on scene?
	Really like to prioritize multiple witness sightings.
	That is more than obviously two or three, four people if possible.
	If there's any level or suggestion of physical evidence that would help enormously.
	In other words, sometimes these objects interact with the vegetation.
	Sometimes things drop off these objects.
	Anything to do with physical evidence will get our interest big time.
	I have to say, over 90% of the cases that come into us are lights in the sky, essentially.
	I can see, just by giving out the number, folks, please don't call right now.
	I can hear the phone lines at mids ringing in the background.
	Inevitably, that occurs when you give out a phone number.
	This is now a Monday through Friday operation, I take it.
	Yeah, normally I would have had people manning the phones, but not tonight.
	Okay, fine.
	Please wait until Monday.
	At any rate, so multiple witness sightings.
	When there's cattle mutilations, for example, a serious case of cattle mutilations, would that cause your organization to move some scientists toward a farmer's field somewhere?
	Yes, and it has in the past.
	Probably the fastest we've ever responded was a case of cattle mutilation that happened up on the ranch property up in northeastern Utah.
	We had three people up there within seven hours of the call, which is not bad, actually, in terms of reaction time.
	Not bad at all.
	As I mentioned, a lot of water has gone onto the bridge since we last talked.
	So, what has been the state of ufology since we last talked?
	Well, the state of ufology has really focused on the black triangles in the last couple of years.
	But, you know, we have got a tremendous variety of reports coming in, and one of the things that we've noticed is in any of the cases that have to do with physical evidence, We have tended to obviously focus on those, and every time that we've applied scientific analysis to physical evidence, it has come out with a mundane explanation.
	Peter Davenport also runs a sighting center in the state of Washington, and inevitably the sightings he gets, the good ones, He records eyewitness reports, plays them back, does that sort of thing, and he literally reports everything of substance.
	Now that's not necessarily the case with NIDS, is it?
	In other words, and there's been some criticism about that column, because occasionally NIDS will get in the middle of a scientific investigation of some sort or another and find reason to not release all details or everything about it right away.
	So you're an investigative organization And you don't always report everything to the American public, do you?
	Well, yeah, we are an investigative organization.
	We're not a reporting center.
	Right.
	So, I mean, there's a fundamental difference between being a reporting center and an investigative.
	We maintained at a very early stage that it was necessary to have sufficient scientific evidence before Before publishing.
	And many, many, many cases that we get, I would say the vast majority of cases, do not meet that requirement.
	So, yes, I'm aware that we've been accused of hiding data and that kind of thing, but if we get any investigative results that meet the criterion of being substantiated in any way, we do publish them on our website.
	Okay.
	And we have always done that, but very, very few cases out of that number rise to that level.
	Otherwise, you know, being a reporting agency is a completely different function from being an investigative agency.
	Certainly it is.
	Especially using the scientific method, we have a science advisory board that does hold our feet to the fire in terms of the kinds of stuff that is published.
	So NIDS is on a straight line, continuing to do as it always has done, or have there been changes in policy and direction for the organization of recent days?
	Well, we've had a new staff member come on in the last couple of months.
	Dr. Bruce Cornett is now the Deputy Administrator of NIDS.
	In terms of the kinds of cases we deal with, we have narrowed the focus to pretty well the cases I just mentioned.
	Multiple witness sightings, close encounters, anything to do with physical evidence are the vast majority of the cases that we try to focus on.
	Now the black triangles obviously are not in that category, but we do continue to collect those kinds of data.
	We do not spend much time or effort on, you know, lights in the sky, essentially.
	Well, again, triangles in the sky, theirs and ours.
	Colm, I'm forced to ask you, do you believe, does NIDS believe, that the military has had contact with aliens?
	Contact with aliens?
	Contact with aliens, yes.
	We have had information over the last several years that seems to indicate that certainly pieces of technology have been recovered.
	Now, I don't think that actually meets the question that you just asked.
	It gets close, but in other words, we may have recovered craft or technology that we have back-engineered.
	I mean, if we have ours and theirs in the sky, Yeah.
	And if there's any relationship, then it's an obvious question.
	Either they gave us technology, either their technology crashed, we back-engineered it, or one of the above.
	Well, a lot of the lines of evidence that we've had, and we're really talking about whispered conversations kind of thing, seems to suggest that there is technology that has been recovered.
	You know, there definitely is not a smoking gun from that perspective.
	Do you recall the testimony given by a colonel once who said that he actually was releasing technology into U.S.
	industry that had been recovered from Roswell from the crash?
	This was Colonel Corso?
	Of course.
	Yes.
	How did you digest that information?
	How do you feel about that?
	I had three opportunities to interview him.
	He was very compelling.
	Yes, and we spent a lot of time interviewing him too, kind of off the record.
	I think there's a really big difference between the kinds of data and information that he was talking about when he was on one-on-one interviews Versus what actually ended up in the book that he wrote the day after Roswell.
	I think there's a lot of stuff in that book that is very difficult to stand behind.
	There were a number of different things that he talked about during the interviews with NIDS people.
	Among them an encounter with some kind of a being at White Sands Missile Base.
	That did ring true from the eyewitness perspective.
	In other words, we could not find any reason to disbelieve him.
	He also did talk about working with this General Trudeau and having some kind of a program ongoing.
	People at NIDS went into the The military, and try to falsify that, and we're not able to falsify it.
	In other words, those reports of technology being back-engineered via industry.
	Do you mean falsify or verify?
	Falsify.
	In other words, it reached a stage where we can't confirm or deny.
	I see.
	Alright.
	So, we were not able to falsify that.
	Do you believe that Area 51, since you're near it, remains active with the kind of thing that we certainly know was going on years ago?
	Do you think it remains a center for the testing of the black technologies we have?
	That's a good question.
	The only information we have is that the same numbers of aircraft seem to be going in and out of the facility.
	I don't know if the focus has shifted into a new direction or if new centers around the country have opened up.
	We have no idea.
	Traditionally, we have kind of stayed away from spending a lot of time on Area 51 because The vast majority of the stuff that comes out of Area 51 is not really in the bailiwick of NIDS.
	In other words, it's not unidentified.
	Sure.
	So we have tended to stay away with the exceptions of these large triangular objects that are associated with it.
	Well, except of course that you've got to bear in mind there's a lot of cross-pollination.
	In other words, A lot of things that are perhaps dispatched from Area 51 are seen and reported to you as possible alien craft.
	Sure.
	So, you know, there's going to be that cross-pollination.
	Sure, sure.
	Inevitably.
	And you would think, obviously, they're not going to publish a flight schedule for you.
	Yeah, that's right.
	But yes, I'm sure a lot of that is reported.
	And so, I don't know.
	We suspect that there's a lot of UAV testing going on out there, for example, and that's one of the things that we've kept an eye on, is the kinds of UFO reports that we've been getting, matching them against the UAV databases.
	UAV standing for?
	Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.
	In other words, the kinds of the Predator and the Globe Hawk.
	There are dozens and dozens of different sizes, different shapes of these unmanned aerial vehicles flying around now and being tested and being deployed.
	Some of them have very unusual looking shapes.
	Indeed, yes.
	And we've had several cases where people have reported to us very, very small, sort of six-inch-to-a-foot-type
	objects that are obviously intelligently controlled, and they fly in very, very unusual ways.
	Are they UFOs or are they UAVs?
	That's a question that we look at.
	Of the various stories of contact over the years that have manifested When I say conduct, I mean people who claim to have been taken aboard craft, people who claim to have had close encounters of the third type at least.
	Are there any that NIDS particularly regards as credible?
	Are you talking about abductions, then?
	Yes, I am.
	Well, you know, there was a case we dealt with fairly recently.
	Well, we thought there was physical evidence, and I don't want to go into too much detail, but there's actually a second one, too, that falls into the same category, where physical evidence in association with abductions is considered a holy grail, so to speak.
	How much detail can you give me?
	Can you get somewhat generic and give me an idea of what we're talking about?
	I can go through the case pretty well because this was an entire family out in California who had multiple, multiple encounters in their home over a several year period.
	They were obviously very stressed because all family members Except one, actually.
	We're having these encounters with creatures in their home.
	So they began to formulate a plan to actually begin to try to measure or to get physical evidence.
	And one of those efforts involved putting a towel down on the floor, and underneath that towel was an aluminum foil.
	The idea was to get footprints.
	Of course.
	And sure enough, They did.
	They did get footprints.
	After a particularly intense series of encounters, they found this object embedded in the towel that looked like a claw, a small claw.
	This was physical evidence that was directly in association with a bunch of anomalous encounters.
	And we're talking dozens and dozens of encounters in different houses because this family moved a couple of times because of the high stress levels.
	I can imagine.
	What did the claw turn out to be?
	Well, that was the interesting thing.
	We went to the wall on this case because we thought it was sufficiently interesting.
	We put it through multiple rounds of DNA analysis.
	And I'm talking seven or eight separate rounds of DNA analysis.
	First, several analysis came up with something that looked or did not match anything in the databases that we knew about.
	Eventually, and there was some very, very talented people who worked on this project.
	Eventually, what they did was they went back to square one and used a completely different form of analysis.
	And eventually they nailed what this object was.
	It was a terrestrial mundane mollusk, or it was a dried up snail that was embedded in the towel.
	And the reason that was, it took about nine months to do this project.
	The reason it was so difficult was that snails tend to secrete a thick mucus That is loaded with chemicals that stop the normal DNA analysis procedure.
	I see.
	And so we were getting results from several different types of analysis, several different types of directions that seemed to suggest that this did not match with any DNA that was known.
	So naturally we were getting really interested.
	We were getting more and more interested as time was going on and we We spent a lot of money, we spent a lot of time on this.
	But the long and the short of this whole thing was that even though the explanation itself was fairly mundane, that does not necessarily detract from the experiences of this family.
	Well, not at all.
	But it grabs and just shakes right out, grabs right out of your hand a piece of solid evidence that you thought was connected to it.
	That's gotta be incredibly frustrating.
	That was very frustrating.
	We've had several cases like that that were apparently physical evidence in association with one of these what looks like a very interesting case.
	It just turns out to be mundane.
	The physical evidence itself turns out to be mundane.
	Hold on, we're at a break point and we'll be right back.
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	Imagine how frustrating that would be.
	To have something, physical evidence actually, that you thought was not of Earth, to go along with an absolutely credible story of abduction, and to spend all that time and money doing the DNA test, find out you had a snail on your hands.
	Imagine!
	Imagine the frustration!
	Yeah, it's very, very frustrating.
	Colm, I'm curious about something.
	SETI, the organization looking for intelligent life up near the hydrogen frequency or now with laser or whatever, they've been at it for a number of years and a statement's been made recently that, you know, if we don't come up with something despite what we've surveyed already and say another, I don't know, X number of years, we're going to be forced to make a statement that says basically, look, we've surveyed this much of the sky and we haven't found anything and we've got to admit that's suggesting the possibility that there is nothing.
	Is there going to get to be that point with NIDS where despite the best efforts and years and lots of dollars expended you're going to be forced to say we don't have the smoking gun?
	After all these years and all this investigation We don't have the smoking gun, so maybe all of this comes from imaginations, overactive imaginations, maybe all these reports of abductions and sightings are just, well, whatever they are, but not real.
	Is there going to come that point?
	Physical evidence is the only way to go, because that's what we're set up to do.
	That's why NIS was created, was to go after the physical evidence.
	Once you abandon that and you start invoking other dimensions and what have we, it becomes an endless circle.
	So we're going to continue for as long as it takes.
	But, you know, your question is a very good one.
	We have not got any physical evidence right now that we would regard as a smoking gun.
	And that physical evidence is materials analysis or DNA analysis, like the one that I briefly described.
	But we've done multiple, multiple physical elemental analysis on everything from implants to, or alleged implants, to ...objects that are associated with abductions.
	Like I mentioned, every single one of those has come down with a mundane explanation.
	Now, you could certainly hypothesize that maybe we're missing something.
	Maybe that, you know, this is advanced nanotechnology that is made to look like, you know, ordinary
	pieces of aluminum.
	But you know, we're using what we consider the best available technology and if there
	was any hint of anything from quote unquote extraterrestrial sources, the obvious way
	to look at it would be to look at isotope ratios and every single examination that we've
	done on everything from pieces of objects that have come out of people's sinus cavities
	Yes.
	Or objects that have come out of other extremities.
	They all said the same thing.
	They're all terrestrial.
	You know, they're all, in many cases, they have a mundane explanation.
	You know, we had a very, very high quality interview with a family.
	It was a mother, daughter, and another child who wasn't there.
	Had a very intense abduction experience just outside San Francisco.
	They came to our office here at NIDS and we spent almost a day carefully interviewing several people involved.
	There is no doubt in our minds that these people absolutely believed that Outside San Francisco one night, this large object came right over their car.
	They pulled over their car and both the mother and the daughter remembered that the husband was left in the car while the mother and daughter were floated up into this object.
	After that event, the mother began to feel discomfort up in her sinus cavities.
	And to make a long story short, one morning she was shaking her head because it was particularly uncomfortable and something popped out and she noticed it in the wash basin.
	So she brought it along to us.
	And here we go again.
	We conducted x-ray analysis on this object and it turned out that it was nickel-plated brass.
	It was a small Rectangular object.
	Well, it turned out once that the people who looked into it pretty closely found that it was one of these little metal brass objects that holds toothbrush bristles in place.
	Now, whatever happened on that morning when the thing suddenly appeared in the wash basin, After she had shook her head and felt like something had dropped out of her nose, that does not, again, take away from the very compelling testimony that both the mother and the daughter separately told to us.
	I understand, but it's like the snail.
	Yeah, exactly the same.
	Just like the snail, and short of any Physical evidence.
	I mean, does that mean that one day NIDS is going to have to say, well, look, we've been on the hunt now for 20 years with the best people that money can buy, and we've got to say there's no physical evidence.
	You know, we've got to make this statement.
	Well, we can also, yeah, we can probably, we'll be pretty comfortable making that statement.
	But as these cases accumulate, and there are several others, there was a case where a pretty spectacular UFO sighting just outside Grand Junction, Colorado a few years ago, where this object dropped off a UFO.
	And we put it through probably close to a dozen sets of pretty sophisticated elemental analysis.
	Now, wait a minute.
	This object dropped off a UFO?
	Could you clarify that a little?
	What do you mean?
	Well, according to two eyewitnesses who were in a car, they had a relatively close encounter with this craft, and as it was leaving, they noticed something dropping.
	From it?
	Onto the road.
	I see.
	And so they picked it up.
	It was a fairly sizable object, but elemental analysis and a whole variety of different Types of analysis showed that it was basically a form of slag, aluminum slag.
	It had nothing, and we went after the possibility that it would have different isotope ratios and all of that, and it didn't turn out to be the case.
	So we have that case.
	One of our board members is currently investigating yet another case, at this time in Belgium, Where this couple had a close encounter with an object, or with a craft, and again, something dropped off the object and landed on the road beside them.
	It was molten when it landed, so they had to wait for it to cool down.
	Really?
	Brought it to the board member, who then put it through a series of lab tests, and it turned out to be pyrite.
	Pyrite?
	Fool's gold.
	Fools, with the emphasis on fools.
	So, you know, you've got this, what I'm trying to say is, you've got this pattern of anomalies, and with these patterns of anomalies, there's physical evidence.
	But when you apply the scientific, rigorous methodology to these objects, in 100% of cases, in our experience, and I can only speak from his experience, And it comes out with a terrestrial slash mundane explanation.
	Now, if you go back to the original talk about the Leaky Embargo Hypothesis, maybe that's exactly what this is telling us.
	Maybe.
	We are, for whatever reason, not being allowed, or whatever word you want to use, to To obtain physical evidence of these, because maybe it's too early.
	So your question about 10 years, 20 years, 30 years for NIDS is a good one, but maybe we're not at that stage yet.
	Well, I mean, that's a pure speculation.
	Sure.
	What about those things that were witnessed and recorded, I think very accurately, that did occur at the ranch?
	Now the ranch, folks, it is a ranch where anomalous, very anomalous things began to happen and in some way Nids and Robert Bigelow found out about it and literally bought this ranch at the location we won't disclose and then set up scientific observation posts, if you will, to watch the anomalous activity.
	And on a couple of previous shows, you've reported some of that, some incredible stuff that occurred that has totally no explanation in logic, does it?
	Yeah, the logic part certainly escapes us.
	We have logged Close to 100 separate incidents on that property going back to about 1994 or so.
	We're approaching our 10 year anniversary.
	We actually moved on to that property in July, August 96, which is almost eight years ago.
	And since then, we've been monitoring that property.
	We've had people on the property pretty well continuously.
	We still have people on the property and there are still the occasional Um, incidents that happened, but nothing like the intensity that happened back in 94 to 97.
	But it was a lot of intensity.
	There was a great deal of intensity there.
	Yeah, there was a great deal.
	And a lot of it was documented with cameras, either in the absence of what could be seen, the impossibility of it, or whatever.
	In other words, actual documentation existed for quite a bit of it.
	And that demands explanation.
	Well, one good example of what you're talking about is, in 1998, we had a set of six surveillance cameras that were running, and there were two telephone poles separated by about 300, well, probably like 200 yards.
	Three of the cameras instantaneously lost power at about 8.31 summer night in 1998.
	One camera on the second pole was looking at the three cameras that lost power.
	To make a long story short, it turned out that the wiring had been forcibly ripped out of all three cameras.
	It would take a lot of strength to do that.
	But these cameras were connected to video recorders, right?
	Correct.
	So you had cameras virtually watching cameras?
	Yes.
	And this physical destruction occurred while the cameras were watching?
	yes i know what they would and the end of the afternoon uh... evening where there was
	still enough light for the camera that was watching the three cameras
	uh... to have enough resolution to somebody coming up to the uh...
	that the place and ripping off the uh... the wires from the cameras now
	at the same time there was a uh... a uh... pbc piping that
	what were the video wires lead into the ground it was also forcibly ripped off the telephone pole for the
	world a lot of force used in this particular operation
	Yes, and during that entire time, when that happened, there was a camera watching which, in review of that the whole time, saw nothing.
	Absolutely nothing.
	And, you know, we went through the process of video enhancement and digital enhancement to make sure that we were missing nothing.
	You know, we even had enough resolution on the camera that was watching the three cameras that were disabled that we could actually see the lights, the characteristic red lights underneath these cameras going off.
	Right.
	And it corresponded exactly to the timestamp on the cameras that lost power.
	So, you know, we were able to triangulate the sequence of events pretty accurately.
	The only thing that was wrong with this whole thing was that there was nothing Associated with the cameras losing power.
	There was not enough resolution to see the actual wires coming out of the cameras.
	But we could see the cameras losing power because those red lights underneath of the cameras were exactly corresponding.
	But there would be no way that a person who's doing this damage could have gone not seen?
	Absolutely no way.
	These telephone poles were located On open ground.
	So it was not like they were in the middle of trees or anything where people could hide.
	There was no way for a person, even crawling along the ground, where they could not have been seen.
	It was just not a feasible operation.
	And we know that the cameras lost power at that time because of the time stamps.
	So something that was invisible did this?
	Correct.
	Well, something that was not picked up by the cameras.
	Right.
	Okay, so this stuff then is going on, despite the fact that we can't get physical proof of it going on, whatever it is, and that would almost automatically, it seems to me, make nids, force nids to look at the possibility that It's not extraterrestrial, perhaps, in origin, but as at least one possibility that the phenomena is associated with... You know, I hate to go into other dimensions here, but you're almost forced into doing it, almost forced into that, at least considering it, aren't you?
	Well, we're forced to consider that Every single analysis, physical analysis that we've done has come up with something terrestrial.
	And in each case, those physical objects have been associated with anomalies.
	So, if there is a terrestrial explanation to these phenomena, then yes, you would invoke some kind of a dimensional hypothesis.
	And, you know, it goes back to this, what is the definition of an extraterrestrial?
	Does it also include dimensions, or entities, or beings, or whatever you want to call them, that are coexisting on this planet, but we just can't see them?
	You know, we've had several incidences on this same property in Northeastern Utah.
	One of them, it seems to me, involved somebody with night vision equipment watching What amounted to a hole in nighttime space opening up with something crawling through it.
	Right.
	That is correct, isn't it?
	That is correct.
	And that happened in August of 1997.
	Two very experienced investigators were on this ridge that overlooked the property.
	They were up there specifically to monitor an area where the stuff had been happening in the previous weeks.
	So they were there with a purpose.
	And they had their equipment.
	Nothing had happened pretty well all night up until about 2 a.m.
	and they were just packing up.
	They were looking down at the area just before heading off home when one of them spotted a dull yellow light.
	It looked like a sort of a small reflection off glass near the ground, that kind of thing.
	Nothing to notice.
	But then it started getting bigger and bigger.
	And so they decided, OK, let's unpack the equipment and have a look.
	So one guy took his camera out that had infrared film in it.
	The other person took a pair of Generation 3 night vision binoculars out of the bag and started monitoring what was going on below.
	He threw the night vision binoculars He saw this three-dimensional tunnel.
	The actual light that had expanded to about four feet in diameter now, through his night vision binoculars, looked like a three-dimensional tunnel.
	And in the tunnel he saw movement.
	Now at the same time, the guy who was taking photographs could only see this four-foot diameter, dull yellow light down there.
	He could not see this three-dimensional tunnel.
	And through this tunnel, this Large black humanoid was crawling.
	It crawled out actually through the tunnel, got out of the tunnel and vanished into the night.
	It literally used the shoulders to emerge from the tunnel.
	And this guy was watching this through night vision binoculars.
	Hold it right there, Colin.
	We'll be right back.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	The heart of the city street is beating.
	Night from the neon to turn the dark to day.
	People too hot to be sleeping.
	We had to get out before the magic got away.
	In the morning with the night, playing in the shadows.
	Playing in the shadows I'll fuck you at night
	Till the morning light Running, oh
	Running in the night Do Talk With Art Bell. Call the wildcard line at area code
	7.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	line is area code 775-727-1222. To talk with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll-free
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	From coast to coast, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	What you're hearing tonight, in the night, that's what we do is run in the night here, is no bull.
	It's just the straight-on facts.
	No physical evidence.
	That's fine.
	No physical evidence.
	Yet.
	No smoking gun.
	Yet, at the same time, you just heard a man describe something that crawled out of a hole, that was seen with night vision, and to a lesser degree with other equipment.
	Absolutely incredible stuff.
	Incredible.
	But still in all, no physical evidence.
	Not yet!
	I wonder if it didn't crawl out of that glowing hole in the dark and slowly move away, only later to become the Governor of California!
	Okay.
	Welcome back, Colm.
	Here's where I want to go now, very quickly.
	I do want to get to phones, let people ask questions here in a minute, but, you know, I mean, you just told me some Pretty wild stuff, and yet I know it to be true.
	And I also know what I saw and have seen to be true.
	So, I mean, this stuff is, on the one hand, going on.
	On the other hand, we don't have the physical evidence.
	So demands that we start looking at, it seems like to me, things like the possibility of other dimensions, the possibility of life after death and some influence coming from that, behind that curtain, or even time travel.
	Some of these pretty esoteric, strange things, but hey, They've got to be considered, don't they?
	Yeah, and, you know, the ranch also had physical, you know, dead cows on the ranch.
	So, I mean, that was pretty physical, too.
	So, one of the things that we were able to do was look at, you know, there was a calf that had Being killed over a very, very short period of time on the property in daylight with a couple of people about 300 yards away.
	And we were able to use the techniques of veterinary forensics to absolutely establish that this animal had not been killed by a predator, but sharp instruments had been used on the animal and a couple of different types of sharp instruments.
	Like a large machete type instrument on a small, more fine knife kind of instrument.
	We were able to use the tools of forensics to at least establish that this was not some sort of a predator attack, but again, it did not establish the who in this situation.
	On the same property, we had a whole litany of animals that just disappear into thin air.
	And I'm talking like over a dozen since NIDS has purchased that property.
	And this particular property, it's not all that easy to lose animals.
	I mean, it's a 480 acre property and can be searched pretty easily.
	But in spite of that, um... culture dot on animals of uh...
	have never been recovered from the property but in addition to the animal but have died on the property
	uh...
	well then again uh... some of these more asteric things like i i know
	for example that uh... needs is spent some effort
	you know there's a big life after-death controversy of course
	Probably always will be.
	I don't know if we'll ever find out until our own moment comes, but I know that NIDS looked at that.
	And there was a whole rash for many years of life after death and near-death experiences and all the rest of that.
	So you've sort of given that a cursory look at least, haven't you?
	Yes, we have.
	We had several of our board members who were specifically focused on Near-death experiences.
	Any conclusions?
	Beyond the obvious in terms of that it is not just simply a hallucination that has been looked at.
	We don't have any conclusions about near-death experiences.
	In other words, we have no tie-in to the UFO phenomenon either.
	Okay.
	There is a, obviously there's a long tradition in the Native American traditions that do associate these objects, especially orbs and orbs of light, with the afterlife.
	And that, you know, the particular ranch up in Utah was host to numerous different types of orbs.
	Oh no, I didn't, I hadn't heard that!
	Light orbs.
	Yeah, there's There's many, many different traditions in the Native American culture associate those orbs with the souls of the dead.
	Yes.
	And then there's time travel.
	I mean, there's every reason.
	It doesn't take a great imaginative mind to think that, well, one day time travel may well be invented.
	That day could be far into the future, because it takes a very great deal of power, we think, to accomplish it.
	But it might be done, and if so, then there's every reason to believe that we could be visited by people, say, from our future.
	It's not so unreasonable.
	Yeah, from what I know, the physics of time travel is getting more mainstream all the time.
	All the time.
	This kind of physics is published in mainstream journals as a matter of course, whereas maybe 30, 40 years ago that was not the case.
	But it is not breaking any laws of physics as we know it.
	So, there's really no reason apart from, as you mentioned, the energy that would prevent time travel.
	But whether these These creatures, or whatever they are, are coming back from another time.
	We have no way of knowing.
	But it's just one of those things that is so frustrating.
	I mean, they fly in our skies, they crawl through holes that people see, they do all these things that people see without leaving physical trace, and smoking guns.
	I don't know, it kind of forces you into these areas.
	Let's kind of explore the phones and see what we get.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Colm Culler.
	Hello.
	Hi, good morning there.
	How are you today?
	I'm fine.
	Where are you?
	Abilene, Texas.
	Okay.
	I had a question for your foreman.
	Back in the mid-70s, if he had any ideas, we had some, there were lots of reports of cattle mutilation.
	I was in the Air Force, the Canadian Air Force Base in Clovis, New Mexico.
	from 1974 to 1977, but back to 1975, 76 around Melrose, New Mexico, where we had bomb rings,
	we had lots of reports of cattle mutilation, and I wonder if any studies have been done in that area.
	Okay, this was in Clovis?
	Yes sir, Clovis, New Mexico.
	Clovis, New Mexico.
	Did NIDS do anything with that?
	Lots of cattle mutilations at that.
	We looked at quite a few cattle mutilations in northern New Mexico.
	Now Clovis, you said it was in the south?
	Yes, he said 74 and particularly 75.
	He said 74 and particularly 75.
	74 and 75.
	We know in the area up around Dulce, New Mexico, which is around Highway 84,
	there were dozens of cattle mutilations around that same time.
	Well, a few years later, actually.
	It was more like 1978, 1979.
	But it's still in roughly the same period.
	They were investigated by a highway patrol officer there called Gay Valdez.
	Gabe Valdez worked as an investigator for NIDS for several years.
	NIDS as an organization investigated several cases in New Mexico of cattle mutilations, primarily around Taos, New Mexico, Dulce, and the northern part, but we have not looked at the southern part.
	I'm interested in the southern part because we did not have any data about calculations in that area.
	While we're on the subject of New Mexico, there was a recent article, again, this has been a recurring theme for years and years and years, about this doggone hum and noise that appears to come from under the ground, literally to the degree where it keeps people awake in parts of New Mexico and elsewhere, I might add.
	Something going on underground.
	Some vibrations, some hum.
	Has NIDS ever gone to look at that?
	No, we have not.
	I mean, we've heard of the Taos Hum, and I believe there's another location where there's a hum, too, but we've never looked into it, no.
	Okay.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Colm Culloher.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art.
	This is Fred from Portview, Pennsylvania.
	Hi, Fred.
	I have a question for you and one for your guest.
	I've had several experiences with UFOs, sightings, and four possible abductions.
	I'd like to ask your guest, has he ever done any, or his organization ever done any research on people that claim to be abductees, their brain patterns being different from other people that have never been abducted?
	I've been told by Stan Freedman and Pete Davenport and several other MUFON researchers that the abductees seem to be operating where people that see UFOs tend to have a different frequency, so to speak.
	Okay, so that's a very reasonable question because it has a scientific basis, if it's true.
	Any difference in recorded brain patterns from abductees to non?
	I do know of a confidential study that's underway right now with MRI that is looking at exactly that question.
	Oh, confidential is it?
	It is unfortunately confidential because of the location of where it's happening.
	But it is, if anybody wants to contact me offline, I can give them some information about it.
	It is looking exactly at the brain patterns in people who are reporting abductions versus people who are not.
	And looking at those brain patterns under a variety of circumstances to see if there's any differences.
	Okay.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Culliher.
	Hello.
	Hello, Art Colm.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	I wanted to make three little statements here about maybe the Triangles being dirigibles.
	Now, I saw a Goodyear Blint before it was retired last year, and it had turbo fans or something on it, and you could hear it distinctly about 300 feet in the air.
	So, if this big Triangle's like three times that big, it'd have to have at least six, eight of these engines.
	Okay?
	Now, as for going 100,000 feet in the air, the Windsor Loft alone would seem to me to just tear that thing to pieces, how it would get up that high with all the winds.
	And the last one is, you know, over the Air Force bases, couldn't they put a mode C transponder in there and make it look like a C-130, even though it didn't move like one, but, you know, have records of a C-130 in the area?
	I mean, these Air Force bases need to know type situations and everything.
	Okay, Colin?
	Yeah, well, the last point is definitely feasible.
	But the fact is, there were so many different eyewitnesses, and I'm speaking about the Illinois case.
	Um, that saw this object going right over them, and in addition to the four or five cops that saw this object, we went on the ground out there and we beat the bushes.
	We got an additional 20 eyewitnesses, many of whom saw this object up close and personal, and there was absolutely no way it was anything like a C-130, but it could have had a transponder signature that corresponded to a C-130 that was picked up.
	That's definitely possible.
	In terms of the other questions, the information that we've got for this thing is, this is not a dirigible in the usual understanding of dirigible.
	This is a very sturdy, high-tech composite object.
	In other words, we're not talking about a standard dirigible that goes up to 100,000 feet.
	This thing is built for those altitudes.
	Okay, what about propulsion though?
	There still should have been some noise, you know, because even if it's, you know, what, helium or whatever filled or something, that light that makes it float, you still have to have some kind of propulsion.
	Yeah, and, you know, some of the eyewitnesses and some of the witnesses that report these objects do talk about a very low frequency hum.
	sometimes associated some people say yeah these things are silent but other people talk about a very
	barely discernible hum hmm
	Well, I know that we have come a long way with sound cancellation technology
	So it might be possible to virtually cancel or nearly cancel the sound of propulsion. I suppose absolutely on the
	ground We're making so many advances that it's getting more and
	more difficult to discern US
	experimental aircraft, certainly, from those that would be from another planet.
	And that's saying something all by itself, isn't it?
	Yes, it is.
	And I think we're right in the middle of that whole thing with this black triangle enigma.
	Now, one thing I did not mention is that the United Kingdom has also had a huge number of black triangle fighting uh... beginning in ninety six ninety aren't actually ninety four ninety five so um... they've had at least as as as many as the united states are so this is not confined just to north america all right west of the rockies you're on the air with column color hello hi hi are uh... this is christine from california
	I'm a huge fan.
	I was so shocked to get through.
	You scared me when you answered the phone.
	I'm sorry.
	It's pretty much a comment than a question, I guess.
	When you were talking about the physical evidence, it always pans out to be something mundane.
	I remember this story about the The snail, I think it was on, when George was on that story, I heard it.
	It just seems like, you know, they're toying with us, you know, on purpose, isn't it?
	Doesn't it seem that way to you, almost?
	Well, that is a question.
	Are they toying with us?
	I definitely have heard that before, that it would almost go back to the valet hypothesis of deliberate absurdity, that it's part of some kind of a learning curve, which is not inconsistent with this whole leaky embargo thing.
	Game playing and all of that is part of psychology, it's part of learning.
	It could be toying with us, or it could be attempting to educate us in some way.
	We've noticed when we were on the property in northeastern Utah, many, many, many of the occurrences appeared to be like some kind of a head game.
	And I think that the ripping out of the wires out of the cameras, like I described there a while back, It fits exactly into that category.
	I mean, that's almost into the poltergeist category.
	That is.
	And it's kind of like toying with the usual way of approaching things.
	And the other thing that we noticed with the Utah property was that there was never any repeated incidences.
	So you could never get comfortable, OK, I know how to deal with this particular thing.
	And then something completely different would come in out of left field.
	You were always in that sort of state of never knowing what to expect.
	Or it always being one step ahead of you.
	Exactly.
	And so, you know, like the lady had asked, it is a variation on that theme.
	Somehow, somewhere in all of this, there must be something that tells us what really goes on, is going on.
	We just haven't found it yet.
	That's a very good summary of what's been happening.
	On this property, we attempted on multiple different occasions to have some kind of communication going with whatever was going on there.
	We even had alphabet-type bricks arranged in different patterns to see if those patterns were changed.
	Were they ever?
	They were never.
	They were never changed.
	Never changed.
	All right, hold on.
	Colm Cullar from NIDS is my guest.
	No physical evidence, but no shortage of anecdotal eyewitness-type reports either.
	So, what do you make of all this?
	I'm curious.
	That audience out there.
	All of you.
	What do you think?
	Sweet dreams are made of this.
	Who am I to disagree?
	I travel the world and the seven seas Everybody's looking for something
	Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you
	Some of them want to abuse you Some of them want to be abused
	I feel it in my toes Love is all around me
	I'm so the feeling grows It's written on the wind
	It's everywhere I go It's written on the wind
	It's everywhere I go you
	So if you really love me, come on and let it show You know I love you, I always do My mind's made up by the
	way that I feel There's no beginning, there'll be no end Cause all my love,
	you can depend I see your face before me, as I lay on my bed
	To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	The first time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
	To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll free at 800-825-5033.
	From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
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	option 5, and dialing toll free, 800-893-0903.
	From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
	My guest is Phil Kelliher.
	We're actually on a...
	Significant, in fact, a profound, I guess, journey trying to find the truth, a very elusive truth, and what's really going on.
	Tomorrow night, for example, I'm going to be interesting, interviewing a very interesting fellow called George Green, who has had contact with aliens and It's another very close contact case, and it'll be fascinating to interview him, but it's one more in a very long line of all this anecdotal evidence and no physical evidence.
	It's just incredibly frustrating for researchers and people who report on this sort of thing, and I hope, Callum, in your tenure that Something resolves, or do you think that it's more likely not?
	Well, I think the track record is definitely where I think it's ambiguous, and I don't see necessarily it changing a lot much.
	You know, the abduction, I think one of your guests mentioned abduction.
	We did a so-called multiple witness study with Professor John Mack on the abduction, and we focused on multiple witnesses in order to see if there was any way of corroborating from more than one person with abduction to see, in other words, are we talking physical abduction or are we talking metaphysical abduction?
	It started off with 200 cases.
	Various criteria focused on about 13 cases that went into inconsiderable depth.
	Lots of interviews of the abductees.
	The numbers were brought down to five who were of special interest.
	Those five were looked at.
	With a lot of detail and corroboration and all of that, it turned out that under scrutiny, each of those five individuals or groups of individuals who had been abducted in the same time and the same place, there was sufficient ambiguity in each of those cases to never corroborate the physical aspect of abduction.
	So, you know, 200 to 13 to 5 to essentially... Zero.
	To zero.
	There was no smoking gun in that caseload that would definitively say that person X was watching as person Y was abducted or vice versa or person X and person Y were simultaneously abducted and there was, you know, corroboration of that.
	You've given people a lot to think about tonight.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Colm Culliher.
	Hello.
	Good morning.
	This is Mike from Dover, Delaware.
	Hello, Mike.
	Hi.
	I just wanted to ask a little bit more about what happened at the ranch.
	What was the time frame relation between when the figure crawled out of the tube and when the camera equipment was damaged?
	Was that before or after?
	It was before.
	The creature crawled out of the tube in August of 97, and the cameras were damaged, I believe, in June or July of 98.
	The incidents occurred about 500 yards from each other.
	In other words, the cameras were ripped out about 500 yards away from where the creature crawled out.
	That particular aspect of the creature crawling out, I meant to emphasize, was seen only through the infrared binoculars.
	Well, you said the others saw a yellow circular light of some sort of something like that.
	Right.
	That's all they could see when that was happening.
	Right.
	Gotcha.
	Caller, enough?
	Yes, that's great.
	Thanks a lot.
	All right.
	You're very welcome.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Colm Culloher.
	Hello.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Yeah, you guys mentioned the lack of physical evidence.
	You know, I know individuals such as Dr. Roger Lear and Daryl Sims have done some very intriguing research into the alien implant phenomenon.
	Absolutely correct, yes.
	Yeah, I wonder if you might have any comments, Colin, on that.
	Actually, he does.
	He made some earlier, but let's do it again.
	Indeed, Dr. Lear and others, have removed implanted things from human beings
	but you maintain, Colm, do you not, that all of them can be traced to terrestrial
	materials of one kind or another? I can only speak for the two implants that were
	examined by NIDS and those two did not yield any
	evidence of being anything other than mundane so I know there was something like
	eight additional ones that were removed but after the first two were removed, examined,
	put through metallurgical analysis and the results were pretty well
	you know normal or mundane, the NIDS
	Science Advisory Board decided at that stage to terminate further cases of implant analysis
	Gotcha.
	In other words, every time you hit a brick wall with regard to physical evidence, you move on to another area where you might find it.
	Is that the way it's kind of working?
	That's the way it has worked in the past, yeah.
	Yeah, okay.
	Good enough.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Callagher.
	Hello.
	Yes, sir.
	This is Anthony in Columbia, Missouri.
	Hi, Anthony.
	I had more of a statement.
	According to Neal Donald Walsh in the Conversation with God trilogy that I've been reading, he states, or insinuates in the book, that higher evolved beings, or what they call Hebs, are helping us some and especially the last seventy years so
	and watching uh...
	watching us for their own benefit as well because what we do
	or don't do affect the whole universe as a whole just as a tragedy in a large uh...
	metropolis affects the whole nation we are to learn our lessons
	on our own and um... and that in ancient times we had greater
	technology than we do now we're getting close again but we're doing the same screw-ups
	we did back then that caused us to destroy ourselves then.
	And their job is to not interfere, because at some point, we have to learn like a child on our own.
	All right.
	Hold on a sec.
	Do you think that the prime directive...
	Well, that argument goes both ways.
	is is valid in other words not to interfere in anyway to watch perhaps to
	well i don't know i guess not interfere in any physical manner with our development
	well uh...
	that argument goes both ways that if if that is the case then why are we being
	inundated with ufo fighting uh... and and close encounters interactions with being
	uh... communications all of that of a.
	Um, and.
	Everything except physical evidence, in other words.
	So, you would imagine if there was a scenario like the gentleman suggested, then why would we even observe these crafts?
	I mean, there is a display aspect to the UFO phenomenon, there always has been.
	Clearly.
	You know, these things are floating down interstate highways at 300 feet in altitude, where they're being witnessed by hundreds of people.
	So, even that fact alone is a form of communication, even though it doesn't entail physical evidence that we can hang our hat on.
	Gotcha.
	Wes to the Rockies.
	You're on the air.
	We'll call him.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Colin, are you familiar yet with the case in Montana a little over a year ago, the Taliaferro case, the red angus cow head that you worked on for a number of months?
	Yes.
	Do you know what your final conclusion was on that?
	Final conclusion on that was there was a compound called oxandol that was found at higher levels in the eye fluid of that animal.
	than a sham mutilated animal.
	And by sham mutilated animal, I mean an animal that was retrieved from the slaughterhouse, left on the ground in a protected way, away from scavengers and predators for two or three days, just like the Taliaferro animal was left.
	And then that eye fluid was put through exactly the same chemical analysis.
	When we did that experiment, we found In the mutilated animal up in Montana, oxyndol seemed to be present in the eye fluid of that animal.
	Oxyndol at high levels is a sedative.
	It will cause animals or humans to lose consciousness.
	One possibility of finding oxyndol in that animal was that The oxandol was used as a sedative.
	Now, I should also mention that at very low levels, oxandol is present in these animals, but not at the levels that we found it at.
	Have you ever communicated with Paul Levengood?
	Dr. Paul Levengood?
	You mean... Lefty Levengood?
	Paul Levengood.
	Yeah, I assume we're talking about the same... Yes, I have.
	Yes, of course.
	Yes, I have.
	And how do you regard his research, specifically with his ability to delineate between crop circles that have been hoaxed and those that he regards as genuine?
	I think what Dr. Levengood has done is extremely interesting.
	I don't think it's an open and shut case that microwaves are used in these plants.
	I think There may be other forms of energy that are used that have not been examined.
	But I think Dr. Levengood has done some really interesting work.
	Yes, but with regard to what appears to be microwave radiation, or whatever the effect is, is it a good measure, do you believe, Colm, in delineating between the man-made baloney and the real McCoy?
	In order to really answer that question properly, what I would love to do, and it has never been done to my knowledge, is to take the same plants that Dr. Leavengood has looked at and look at them from a completely different angle, in other words, a cellular angle, in order to see if what Dr. Leavengood has found is corroborated.
	And we have never done that because Most of the focus that NIDS has focused on has been on the UFO topic.
	Got you.
	Although there is a relationship, as you well know.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Kelleher.
	Hello.
	Colm, over 40 years ago I was an OSI agent, so I have some first-hand information about OSI.
	Yeah.
	Let me talk to the issue of black triangles.
	Yes.
	All U.S.
	UFOs are triangular in shape.
	All other UFOs are circular or have other shapes.
	It has to do with the center of gravity, but the black triangles are all U.S.
	The technology is... We've been given no technology.
	This is something that we developed.
	Oh, so you know a very great deal about them, obviously, right?
	Well, I think so.
	All right, so what technology allows them to silently propel themselves at, you know, 30 miles an hour, seemingly not aerodynamically traveling at all?
	Well, that's energy that comes from under our feet.
	Uh-huh.
	Energy that comes from under our feet?
	Right.
	What does that mean?
	Well, those are emissions from the core of the Earth.
	From all live planets.
	That allow them to travel, so are you talking about some sort of gravitational propulsion system?
	Well, the magnetic and gravity and other forces.
	Well, have you worked on these programs?
	I'm just familiar with them.
	Okay.
	Is there any way that we could email?
	You could email me?
	Sure.
	The email address for NIDS is NIDS.
	I really appreciate an email from you.
	Actually, there are two locations that are involved and they're close together.
	The Black Triangles are about seven miles north of the location that other entities craft would Leave the Earth and... All right, well, if you would please follow up with the email.
	We're not heavy on time here.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Colm Kelleher.
	Hello.
	Yes, hello.
	Hi, turn your radio off, please.
	It's off.
	Good.
	Go ahead.
	Yes, hi.
	I was just wondering if you had ever considered anything with Admiral Byrd?
	Are you familiar with Admiral Byrd?
	Oh, yes.
	Admiral Byrd?
	Yes.
	From what perspective?
	With the perspective of the hollow earth.
	The hollow moon.
	Alright, well, why not?
	We'll do a little bit of this column.
	There have been many reports of UFOs coming up out of the ocean.
	Some of them literally coming out of the earth.
	That sort of thing.
	I don't know about hollow earth, but there have been reports of activity that would appear to be within the earth.
	Yes, we've had several reports of allegedly these objects flying right down into, say, a mountain or something, and not crashing.
	We've also had reports of objects coming out of the sea, the seawater, or going into.
	We've had several objects, actually, that were detected underwater by submarine sonar.
	That's right.
	Moving at in excess of 50 knots, which, you know, and this was mostly in the China Sea back in the 1950s, where these objects, you know, this kind of technology was not available.
	Yes, and more of this.
	They would seem to move through the earth when they do and through the sea.
	Just as we would move almost through the air, you know, in some sort of airplane.
	It just doesn't seem to matter to them, the density of the ocean or of the land versus the air is as if it didn't exist, you know, the difference.
	Yeah, and that was one of the reports I'm thinking of, specifically in the China Sea, was monitoring that with sonar because apparently propellers make cavitation Patterns in the water.
	That's correct, yes.
	And these were not detected from these objects that were moving at greater than 50 knots.
	So whatever propulsion was being used was not the standard propeller propulsion.
	Have you written a book or done anything that you would like to promote here at the end of the program?
	Not at this time, no.
	No book?
	Oh, gee.
	Which I think we're having trouble with right now is... Yes, I know.
	I'm sorry.
	We apologize.
	...is nidsci.org.
	But the NIS email address, I would definitely encourage people, like the gentleman who we just talked with, nidsatanv.net.
	Okay, and I apologize for probably taking your website down.
	Anything that gets posted up there is visited by Many hundreds of thousands of people at one time, and the result is usually inevitable.
	It'll go down for a period of time, but it will live again, so keep checking the website, folks.
	Well, that's actually a very good thing, if there's that many people out there.
	I think that's great.
	A lot of notches in our website, believe me.
	I want to thank you, Colm, for being here.
	Say hi to Robert, please, for me.
	Yes, I will indeed.
	I know that he, I think, next time you're in Las Vegas, you should look him up.
	I know he's looking for me.
	Colm, thank you.
	Thank you very much, Art.
	Have a good night.
	We'll do it again.
	Absolutely.
	Take care, my friend.
	Thank you very much.
	I'll be back tomorrow night.
	But there you've got it.
	The straight stuff.
	Colm Connaher.

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