Art Bell

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April 24, 2004 - Art Bell

02:51:36

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Colm Kelleher - Black Triangle Phenomena

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53:39

colm kelleher

01:07:51

whitley strieber

25:13

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good.
		Well, evening, morning, afternoon, whatever the time may be, in whatever time zone you reside in, because we cover all of them.
		One way or the other.
		With this program, Coast to Coast AM, the weekend version begins.
		Well, I don't know how many of you have seen it yet.
		Obviously quite a few, because I've been sent, oh, I don't know, about a thousand links to it.
unidentified		The Drudge Report.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as a result of the Drudge Report headline, it is right at the very top.
		The Drudge Report.
		We're going to have this hour in a moment.
		My co-author, or I'm his co-author, whatever, of the coming global superstorm.
		Now, of course, spawning a movie based in part on the coming global superstorm called The Day After Tomorrow.
		And right at the top of the Drudge report, it says, along with a picture of a city under siege by tornadoes, coming superstorm.
		Fox climate change movie irks Bush Administration Ice Age Outrage.
		Saturday, April 24th, 2004-1005-27.
		Federal agency employees not to comment publicly on Fox's new summer fuss film the day after tomorrow, a $125 million disaster movie on global warming.
		The flick, which depicts how accumulating smokestack and tailpot gases set off an instant ice age, is set to open May 28th.
		Few climate experts think such prospect is likely.
		The New York Times is, however, planning to report on Sunday, according to newsroom sources of the Drudge Report, but the prospect that moviegoers might be alarmed or will be alarmed enough to blame the Bush administration for inattention to climate change has stirred alarm at the space agency.
		Now get this.
		Quote, no one from NASA is to do interviews or to otherwise comment on anything having to do with a film.
unidentified		Said an April 1st message to employees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Developing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what Matt usually adds at the bottom of any story about this sort of thing.
unidentified		Developing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's developing all right.
		I have a lot of comments on this.
		I suspect Whitley does as well.
		And so, you know, a million people have sent me links.
		So now I'm in trouble with George Bush.
		Well, great.
		Actually, I kind of like George Bush, minus a couple of things.
		As far as inattention to climate change is concerned, yes, I do have a big concern with that, a really big one.
		Whether it's accumulating smokestack or tailpipe stuff, I have no idea.
		This may be an absolute cyclical change and have nothing to do with anything man does, or it may.
		As I have always preached, I really don't know.
		I really don't know.
		What I do know is that it appears to be happening and it appears to be underway right now.
		So the book and the movie are both rather timely.
		moment whitley streber stay right there you By the way, if you check out my webcam photo up at coastaium.com, just up at the upper left-hand corner, and click on webcam, you'll see me happily holding up.
		I went trudging into Walmart the other day looking for a book.
		I'm an avid reader.
		I devour, I don't know, just a book every two days or so.
		And look at what I found.
		Would you look at what I found?
		The book, The Day After Tomorrow, by Whitley Strieber, done from the screenplay of the movie that is about to descend upon the Bush administration.
		Here is Whitley Streeber, author of, oh, gee, all kinds of books, zillions of books now, a very prolific author indeed, one of my favorites, co-author of War Day, and, of course, The Day After Tomorrow, now author of Day After Tomorrow as well.
		Whitley, welcome to the program.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm glad to be here, Art.
		Urgent HQ Direction began a message emailed on April 1 to dozens of scientists and officials at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland.
		That is the lead in a story that has just been published on the New York Times website within the past few minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And it is about the movie.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		It goes on to say, no one from NASA is to do interviews or otherwise comment on anything having to do with the film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's true.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Said the April 1 message which was sent by Goddard's top press officer.
		Any news media wanting to discuss science fiction versus science fact about climate change will need to seek comment from individuals or organizations not associated with NASA, which is quite amazing.
		Down at the bottom of the story, it says, if environmentalists distance themselves from the movie, they will be squandering a gift, said Dr. Daniel B. Botkin, an emeritus professor of ecology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, quote, I think it's a good educational opportunity that we should treat a disaster movie as entertainment and not get upset that it's a distortion.
		But $125 million on global warming must be a record for publicizing the issue.
		So it's interesting.
		This article By Andrew C. Revkin, unless this is a shortened version in the online edition, he interviewed me for over an hour, and our book neither our book nor the interview has mentioned a word of it in the article.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody, Lewis in San Diego, writes, Hey, hey, Art, of all the subjects you've covered on Coast over the years, nothing has ever produced an official response from Washington.
		Not quite true.
		There are a couple things I've done.
		Anyway, their reaction to global superstorm is all the evidence needed to confirm that you and Whitley got it right.
		Actions speak much louder than words.
		Lewis, San Diego.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, on my website, as of about two hours ago, if you go to unknowncountry.com and click on the mind frame section, you will see the latest Whitley's journal, which is Sudden Climate Change has begun.
		The process is underway.
		The weather that we are seeing across the United States right now is a result of this change.
		And I can be real specific about what I mean.
		Last summer, a strange thing happened on the U.S. East Coast all the way from Maine down to Florida.
		When people went swimming, it was suddenly really cold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And they were mystified.
		We were not mystified.
		And the reason we weren't was we'd been watching the Gulf Stream change its course over the past couple of years.
		And the result of this is that cold water from the polar seas was kind of leaking, if you will, all the way down the coasts to Florida.
		And to me, this meant the next thing that we would find out would be somebody who was out there studying this was going to say the currents were slowing down.
		Sure enough, no less than Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute ridiculed on some talk shows as being a liberal thing where they get that, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, they're just scientific.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		It's just scientific.
		The thing is, it has nothing to do with ideology.
		In nature, 2 and 2 always equals 4 no matter how much you yell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unless you're a politician, then you can make it 50 if you have to.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, until people look up and notice that the clouds are getting kind of dark.
		But anyway, sure enough, Woodshole said that the changes, the slowing of the North Atlantic current was astounding.
		And now NASA has just announced a couple of days ago a critical part of the system called the subpolar gyre has been slowing for a long time.
		We're seeing the consequences of it now in the weather pattern in America, in my opinion.
		That is to say, we basically are still in a, we've had a very long, very harsh winter.
		We're still in a winter weather pattern in this country.
		Meanwhile, in the tropics, all that warm air is literally becoming warmer and warmer, and it's being forced to the south because the jet stream still has not changed to a summer pattern, even though late.
		Now, when it does change, over the next few weeks, it can't be more than a few more weeks, you're going to see, I think, quite violent weather.
		I don't know how violent or how complex the storms, but we just saw a couple of big supercells pop up in Oklahoma yesterday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A couple.
		I'll tell you something, Whitley, as you know, I'm a ham operator.
		The static was absolutely unmanageable.
		We took a look at the lightning map and some of the forecasts, and you're right about supercells.
		They were actually across most of Texas and Oklahoma, and, oh, my God, Whitley, it was a terror what was going on there.
		Just a terror.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		We were up all night, my wife and I, not all night, but until 3 o'clock in the morning, just because of the continuous lightning and the racket of the storms that were taking place here in San Antonio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it's fair to say, I mean, in spring there are always storms and tornadoes.
		In the Midwest, I mean, that happens.
		It just happens.
		However, the ferocity and frequency of these is obviously increasing.
		The changes are obviously occurring.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And you don't see blizzards in Denver?
		Not to that extent this late in the season normally.
		I mean, it's not unknown.
		None of it, because, you know, there's nothing going on right now that is totally unknown.
		That may not remain true.
		And I'll tell you why not.
		One of the things that, as you recall, when we were doing research on Superstorm that we found was a certain kind of iffy amount of evidence that there had been an event in the past where I think, as I recall, we found a study of about a, was it an apple tree or something that had been frozen in full bloom north of the Arctic Circle and never thawed out for thousands of years.
		And this, when we were writing our book, this was generally kind of discounted as being scientifically impossible no longer.
		Last year in Peru, a plant was found buried in a glacier that had been inundated with snow so quickly that it had not rotted.
		It had literally frozen where it stood, meaning that the snows that had caused this glacier, it had dropped within a matter of hours.
		The plant did not reappear for 5,000 years.
		Now, caught in the same disaster, apparently across the world in Europe, was the famous ice man who was inundated with snow and didn't thaw out again for 5,000 years.
		So something happens during these climactic events.
		At that time, there was a brief period of sudden climate change that didn't really evolve into anything.
		It may have been caused by dust from a comet.
		We're not really sure what caused it, but it was just a, it lasted about a century then.
		but what we know is that during the course of it, there were these extraordinary events where there was fundamental change that lasted for until the current period.
		We have no idea at all what that weather process is.
		We have never seen it before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I guess I would like to make it clear.
		And the Drudge Story, it says, the film depicts how accumulating smokestack and tailpipe gases sets off an instant ice age.
		I am not really comfortable saying that.
		It's certainly not what our book says.
		And I don't necessarily believe that at all.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		It's not what the movie says either.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		I've read the script in writing the Day After Tomorrow book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		But my point is, and I really want to make this clear.
		This could be a normal, cyclical, however many thousand years event.
		It could be aided or sped up by the hand of man, or it could be, indeed, the hand of man that is bringing this one on.
		I wouldn't have the slightest idea.
		I've been trying to get past that argument.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, me too, because it's not relevant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not relevant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not once it happens.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		It's happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And we have needed to plan for this for 20 years.
		And another thing, everyone is leaping on the Bush administration.
		What about the Clinton administration?
		They didn't say anything about it.
		What about the previous Bush administration?
		What about the Reagan administration going on back, the Carter administration?
		These issues were already present in the mid-80s when I wrote my book, Nature's End.
		Nobody cared then.
		Nobody anywhere in the world.
		The only leadership, real leadership, that has been ever shown in this area is the previous Canadian Prime Minister.
		And what did he come up with with the Canadian Prime Minister's plan, which is a plan which individuals can carry out in their homes at no cost to industry at all, that any world leaders,
		if any of those presidents had come up to the table and said, let's take this seriously, we would have, at least, whether this is a cyclical event we can't prevent or not, we could have reduced our own carbon dioxide output considerably.
unidentified		Sure.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And nobody did it.
		If anyone wants to find out about it, it's on the Quick Watch section of my website.
		And the whole plan is just laid out right there.
		If you want to do it in your own home, you can.
		It's not hard.
		It's not expensive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, anyway, I kind of agree with the fellow who sent me the email.
		If we hadn't hit something very hard on the head, I mean, you never see an administration through NASA or its own devices come out and sort of preemptively go at a movie the way they're going at this one.
		You just don't ever see that till now.
		Do you?
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, I saw it actually.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		It happened to me when I wrote War Day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, really?
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they got very annoyed because at the time, the administration was beating the drums that limited nuclear war was winnable and survivable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that period, yeah.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and War Day reminded everyone that, yeah, that might be true, but it was going to still be kind of unpleasant.
		And it sort of killed the idea of hardening American industrial sites and stuff that was floating around at the time.
		And, yeah, the administration was very annoyed, and it became known as the war day scenario when it was eventually adopted by some of the scientists involved, Dr. Kostasipis and so forth.
		And their strategy of provoking the Soviet Union into a limited nuclear war was shelved, basically.
		And so I've been there.
		And, you know, I don't know.
		It's very disturbing in a way because, of course, living here in San Antonio, I have a lot of friends who are close to the Bushes, and I know them to be wonderful people.
		And, you know, nobody, I mean, I know there's a lot of partisan people who say you have to hate Bush or you have to love Bush, et cetera.
		But let me give you an idea of what I mean by wonderful people.
		A few months ago, the son of a friend who also was a friend of the Bush's was in a very bad situation with cancer.
		And as busy as George W. Bush was, he took time out.
		This guy, he could have been, he's all right now.
		He's in remission now, but he was at the time believed to be dying.
		And he wanted to go in the White House and to just see the White House.
		So a little tour was arranged for him.
		The White House was closed at the time because of the terrorism threat.
		And he and his new wife and his mother-in-law went to the White House, and soon enough, they were ushered into the Oval Office.
		The President spent half an hour with this young couple simply out of the goodness of his heart, as busy as he is, simply to say to this young man and to give him hope.
		And it was extraordinary.
		Now, I tell this story on purpose now because we're in the middle of a battle, and the president has been it's hard for an administration to change its position on something.
		But I think they will change their position on this.
		I think they have to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not anti-Bush, period.
		In fact, I'm sort of apolitical.
		I look at situations I'm not full of political frothing ideology at all.
		But with regard to what's going on right now with the climate, I guess there is no choice.
		You're going to bump into the politicians when you begin talking about something of this magnitude.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, you are especially in the case of an administration who has taken, which has said there is no such thing as global warming, and has even gone so far as to send a memo to Congress, to supportive congressmen, saying that how to kind of spin this during the course of the campaign.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And unfortunately, I think that they need to change their position on this, that this is something that we need to address and something we can do something about, probably.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is their firm position.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is no such thing as global warming.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		At the moment.
		But I think before the election, that's going to change.
		In fact, I could guarantee it almost.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how does that statement square with the ice at the north part of the world and the ice at the south part of the world melting really fast?
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, the thing is, Art, I was looking through my old journal entries, and I was saying on last August that this was beginning to happen, and it would be fairly soon.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And I was thinking about back when we were working on the book, we were figuring like 25 years hence, not four or five.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and certainly not coincident with the opening of the movie on the 28th.
		And this is not a promo.
		Well, I guess it is a promo for the movie, but a sort of one that has to be told because of what's actually happening.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		You'll hear my heart beating before Be it sight, sound, smell or touch There's something inside that we need so much Thank you.
		The sight of the touch or the scent of the sand.
		Or the strength of the windows deep in the ground.
		The wonder of flowers to be covered and then to burst up through tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing.
		To lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing.
		Have all these things in our memories hoar.
		I'm the user to call us too far Yeah!
		Ride, ride, pass your song Take this
		place, on this trip Just call me Ride, ride, take a free roll Drink my ice, up my seat It's for free Wanna take a ride?
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we're on a ride, all right.
		Believe me, we're on rides like we're on a roller coaster.
		Ever been on one?
		It's like we're sitting there in one of the first cars, a big roller coaster.
		And this ride's already underway, folks.
		A little while ago, you felt the first little jerk and you started up that first mountainous hill, and you're kind of chugging along.
		You're almost at the top of the hill, and you're almost ready to look down on that big plunge that you're about to take.
		Oh, yeah, we're on a ride.
		Whitley Streeber, back in a moment.
		Right under the photograph on the Drudge report of the city under siege, it says, coming Superstorm, Fox's climate change movie irks Bush administration, Ice Age Outrage.
		That's what it says.
		So, you know, I guess, Whitley, it's going to be, it looks like, I mean, all I've seen, of course, is the trailer so far, which is stand the hair right up on the back of your neck for sure.
		And I don't know whether it's really going to turn out to be an outrage for the administration or not.
		I think the fact that there has been no attention to what's going on with the climate from the political side, there's been plenty of late from the scientific side, but that there has been none from the political side is an outrage.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, there is an article that just appeared literally in the past few minutes on the Minneapolis Star Tribune website saying that NASA has changed its position.
		Oh.
		Gretchen Cook Anderson, the NASA spokesperson, said the agency would make scientists available to discuss issues raised by the film.
		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So this is in the space of since we've been on the air.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, as far as I know, just within the past hour, because I certainly wasn't there an hour ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow, heck, Whitley Allen might want him on.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Why not?
		Yeah.
		And, you know, Mark Gordon, the film's producer, is making some good points.
		He says that all they need to be saying is the drama of the movie is fictional, but the fact is that global warming is real.
		That's really the truth of it.
		And it's not even that, you know, but you know where this all started?
		It all started with elements in the environmental movement squaring off against people who were against, who did not want government planning and attempting to use this problem and many other problems as a way to impose a level,
		re-impose, in some countries and in this country, impose a level of social planning that has been roundly rejected by mankind and that's unwanted.
		And they never should have done it.
		Because it isn't about reimposing some kind of re-imposing some kind of socialist or Marxist planning structure on the society, enforcing and making all kinds of different things mandatory.
		It's really about leadership.
		And that is what we don't have because there is so much the individual can do in his own life.
		And that's where it absolutely has to start.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, unfortunately, we're mortal beings, and we're around the planet for 80 to 100 and some odd years, whatever.
		That's it, and we're gone.
		Politicians have a greater mortality.
		They're there for four or eight years or even longer.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And then they're gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then they're gone.
		And so planning tends to take place for, you know, if you're an individual, our short lifetimes.
		If you're a politician, the planning is for a much shorter time yet.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And yeah, and the point of our book was, yes, we did concentrate something that's probably going to unfold over a 10-year period into a short time for the purposes of telling the story, and they did the same thing in the movie.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		But nevertheless, that kind of planning that you're talking about should have started many years ago, because what we could be seeing really unfolding, beginning to unfold right now is a change in climate that's going to leave the growing season all over Europe and North America much shorter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and nobody is saying this is not survivable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What we're trying to pound in again and again is that with planning, it's much more survivable, and so many lives could be saved if we began to realize what's going on and shifted our agricultural patterns and adjusted.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And adjusted, right.
		And if we spent the time and energy, above all, to find out exactly what's going on, because one of the great problems is that we don't really know.
		And unfortunately, one of the things that's been happening in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is that the paleoclimate research budget is being cut back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And that's exactly the kind of thing we absolutely do not need.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Because that is where we can go to look for models for planetary climatic conditions that were similar to now so that we can tell what the future may bring.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's the part I don't get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With the barrage of mainstream scientific recent alerts that have been issued, Woods Hole and such, why, parallel with that, would the administration be so solidly still on this it's not happening thing?
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		This is an administration like a few others.
		It's a lot like, oddly enough, the last Texas administration, the Johnson administration, in this respect, has a tremendous amount of trouble changing its direction.
		They really have trouble saying we want to do this another way now.
		This is not working right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or even we could have been wrong, and the science is now.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		God forbid we were wrong.
		Lyndon Johnson couldn't do that.
		And George, maybe it's something in the culture of Texas that makes it hard for people to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I think it's in a lot of human beings.
		Once you take a very firm position, it's very hard to say, oops, I was wrong.
		But I mean, the science, the amount of science coming out lately, some pretty dire stuff.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		It's overwhelming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		is overwhelming yes and so to continue to take that position That's amazing.
		I mean, it's just a few hours.
		Do you suppose the fact that it broke on Drudge caused somebody in the administration to say, oops, this is going to look really bad.
		I guess we better let them talk.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think they've been aware of the film for a while.
		I think they've been aware of the film since the beginning of the month.
		And I know from a friend that some copies of our book and of the day after tomorrow have been in the White House.
		I doubt if you'd be very amazed if the President has read them, but I'm sure somebody has.
		And so it's definitely an issue that they're planning in one way or another to deal with.
		And unfortunately, right now, what it looks like they're going to do is to deal with it by saying it's all nonsense and this is just fiction and it couldn't possibly happen.
		And what's so troubling to me is the scientific consensus is that sudden climate change is very much of a reality, but that it couldn't be this big, this violent, or this sudden.
		And I'm just troubled by those plants under the glacier in Paris.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		I mean, there's a lot of scientific evidence that it has happened before.
		That should be part of their calculations.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		What's troubling to me is something unknown has happened before, and we are not really looking at that at all because nobody really wants to.
		And I don't know what it would be like, actually, if whatever that was blew up again.
		But even with the mammoths that have been so thoroughly debunked in north of the Arctic Circle, the fact remains that the fossils, however the animals died, the fossils were found with temperate zone plants that they had been eating, and that they certainly could never have eaten in that place again from the day They died until the day they were unearthed.
		And so, whatever happened happened very suddenly, even if it was only over a few days, it happened suddenly and it was effectively permanent.
		And if you look at what happened in Peru, the scientists who looked at those plants are saying it happened really very suddenly.
		And to get to the story, you just go to my website and put Peru in the search engine, and you'll find the story immediately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all of this evidence, I mean, whether it's the contemporary Woods Hole stuff or whether it's archaeological evidence that is so clear or any of the rest of it, it just seems so overwhelming when you add it up with what's happening right now for them to be still just not coming off that position at all.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		There's an urgent need for more study and an absolutely urgent need.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a moment to be cutting back budgets.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		No, no, to look at the paleoclimate and find out just exactly what did happen in Peru and to determine exactly what that was because you've got six billion people living here now.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		And if that happens to anybody anywhere, it's going to be a real catastrophe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do me a favor and see if you can get a ticket to the movie over to Matt Lauer at NBC.
		I'd like him to see you.
		Listen, let's change subjects for a second.
		Since I've got you here, Whitley, coming up in the next hour, I've got Columb Cullah, and we're going to be talking.
		I noticed that they put up a photograph of one of these black triangles.
		Black triangles are hot stuff right now.
		Actually, they have been for a long time.
		And that was the one siding my wife and I had.
		So I put our actually an artist rendition of two scale, actually, of exactly what my wife and I saw.
		So you see our little red car, and we're there, and I'm pointing up at this thing, which is exactly what I did.
		This black triangle thing is everywhere right now.
		And what do you know about ufology of the moment?
		I mean, what's going on?
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, I am actually involved with a couple of things that are really interesting and strange.
		One of them is a story that we just received from an unknown country reader in Germany, and I'm looking at it right now.
		This will go up on Monday, a day after tomorrow, on our site.
		Over Ramstein Air Force Base on January the 22nd, there was a really odd phenomenon.
		What it was, was seven colors of light.
		At first they were balls of light, and then they became pillars of light that were coming down from above.
		They would become fainter when clouds passed overhead, and then brighter when there were no clouds, meaning that they were coming, shining down from above.
		There were auroras in the atmosphere at the time, but this is no aurora.
		These things were absolutely stationary, and they lasted all night from approximately 11.30 p.m. until they dissipated as the morning sky, in the morning sky.
		And the odd thing was at 11 p.m., there was a square shadow visible in the sky.
		And during the night, communications, cordless phones, internet quit working.
		The lights got worse, got brighter.
		And here's the part that's fascinating.
		There seemed to be kind of an electromagnetic effect connected with it.
		Now, recently in Italy, in Sicily, there has been a bizarre event taking place involving spontaneous fires breaking out in electrical appliances, primarily in electrical appliances, and in cars and things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I saw something on your website about that.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, in a town there where even things that are cut off and isolated are bursting into flames, and there is a major scientific effort taking place in the town now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Trying to figure out why.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, do you think that it could be electromagnetic radiation of some sort?
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, I think it's probably not UFO-related.
		I think it's probably a natural phenomenon.
		And again, if you want to find out more, go to the website, go to the search engine, which is on the left-hand column about midway down the page, and just put in the word Sicily, S-I-C-I-L-Y, and you'll get all these stories right away.
		But in any case, it's disturbing to me because it, again, is a suggestion of the presence of a very bizarre, unknown phenomenon that is, in the case of Italy, at least they're studying it.
		But I doubt very much that if it was, for example, happened here in the United States, there would be any study.
		Everyone would immediately be saying, oh, well, it must be this or it must be that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think the United States is so predisposed to, I don't know, being such skeptics about any of this sort of material?
		Why do you suppose that is?
		We are that way, and other countries are not.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		There's a culture of denial connected that's very powerful in this country.
		Well, a good example is in archaeology.
		In India, the Indian archaeological community is working hard to do undersea archaeology on this extraordinary apparent city that was found submerged in the Indian Ocean.
		American archaeologists won't touch it because it violates established theory.
		It shouldn't be there.
		And we have another case, a very, very fascinating case, of a skull that has been in the Archaeological Museum in Mexico City for a very long time, since the 50s, of an apparently, it looks like an ANU skull, a Japanese skull.
		It's carbon dated to about 13,000 years ago, suggesting heresy of heresies that seafarers from Japan came to Mexico that long ago.
		Now, this attempts to get this skull studied within the U.S. community failed again and again, but now the equipment necessary to do the kind of DNA study that is needed is available in Mexico, so they're going to do it themselves.
		And we will know, as the archaeologist involved said very simply, once we have this skull studied, we will know for certain whether or not people came from Japan.
		And somehow in the culture of science in our country, we've crossed a line between wanting to know the truth whether or not it fits theory to only wanting to know the truth if it fits theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		And I don't know how that happens to science within.
		Maybe a very strong, powerful Nation like ours gets stodgy, and maybe the academic community tends to get stodgy, and why careers are held on certain theories.
		And if those theories get in trouble, then the feeling is the career gets in trouble too.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
		It's very true.
		In this country, if you make an assertion against theory that proves to be wrong, your career is in jeopardy.
		And that's really not true in other societies at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It seems so counterintuitive, though, to what science claims it is.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		It slows down the progress of scientific discovery, there's no question about it.
		But still, the United States has a magnificent scientific community.
		I mean, it is, and there are certain areas, such as physics, where these rules don't apply, and phenomenal progress is being made every day.
		Incredible stuff is being done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's going to be very interesting to see where this, I mean, here we are a full month ahead of the movie, and already there's this incredible controversy swirling around it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder what's going to happen when it actually comes out.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm hearing that the Day After Tomorrow book is just literally flying off the shelves all over the world.
		It's coming out in different countries.
		Yeah, and I'm sure Superstorm will be, too, because it's going to be coming out side by side with it worldwide.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when that hits, and then, of course, the movie actually comes out, I wonder if that is how this will be perceived, if there'll be a backlash against the current administration in Washington because of it.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Well, there'll be two things.
		You will find that there'll be a certain polarization.
		The supporters of the administration are going to be laughing at the movie and saying it's a load of nonsense.
		And most people are going to be saying, hey, wait a minute, maybe we should really look at this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Listen.
		As always, it's wonderful to have you here.
		And in view of what's coming, in more ways than one, why, you'll be here a lot in the very near future.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm going to settle down now and listen to you and Comb.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		I can hardly wait.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
whitley strieber ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's Whitley Streeber, everybody.
		Author, co-author of the coming global superstorm, along with myself.
		And, of course, based in part on the movie, which is coming out May 28th, called The Day After Tomorrow.
		From the high desert in the middle of the night, that's where we are.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		I'm Art Bell.
		I'm Art Bell.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is Area Code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West to the Rockies, call ART at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		Column Gallagher is Administrator of NIDS.
		That's the National Institute for Discovery Science and has led the investigative project of NIDS for over actually seven years now.
		NIDS is the only fully funded organization in the entire U.S. that employs full-time PhD-level scientists on staff.
		NIDS also has a world-class science advisory board with 15 members drawn from many, many branches of science.
		Killer has a PhD in biochemistry, also wet lab research experience in molecular biology, virology, and biochemistry.
		He has led both the UFO investigative arm of NIDS as well as NIDS research into cattle mutilations.
		We're going to talk about the enigmatic black triangle phenomena.
		That's one of the very few things that I talk about on this program that I've had intimate personal experience with myself.
		And I mean, as intimate as anybody would ever want to have.
		And I suppose one last time, one last time, I'll tell you about that in the course of this discussion coming right up.
		All right.
		One last time, and very quickly, just before Column takes to the air here.
		One night, many years ago now, I worked in Las Vegas for KEDWN Radio at that time.
		And I used to commute back and forth from here to Las Vegas every single day.
		Well, Ramona and myself were on the way home And in fact, had almost made it home.
		Not more than, oh, I don't know, a quarter, half mile at the most from here.
		As we were making one of the last turns toward the house, Ramona, who was in the driver's seat, said, What the hell is that?
		And I said, But what do you mean?
		And she said, Behind us.
		And so I pulled the car over and stopped on the side of the road.
		We had a little Geometro, a red Geometro at that time.
		We still have a Geometro, by the way.
		And pulled over to the side of the road, and we both got out and stood and watched this incredible, incredible black triangle approaching us from the rear.
		It was still approaching at that point as we stood by the car.
		And I'm telling you, folks, this mama was big.
		It was pure black.
		It could not have been more than, you know, I'd estimate 150 feet above us.
		It was monstrous as it passed overhead.
		The stars and the nearly full moon at the time went away, you know, just like in the movie, closing gouters or whatever.
		This thing couldn't have been doing more than about 30 or 40 miles an hour and maybe less.
		I'd say maybe 30 miles an hour.
		It was not flying, not as a conventional aircraft would fly.
		It was floating.
		Not only was it floating or defying gravity, however you wish it, it was making no noise whatsoever, no apparent propulsion system whatsoever.
		It was so quiet you could hear crickets a quarter of a mile away, half a mile away.
		And it was so close, I felt like I could have thrown a rock at it, but you know, I didn't.
		I was so shocked.
		And so I guess I was actually, we were both actually in shock, and it passed directly over our heads and kept on going in a west-northwesterly direction, roughly toward what we know as area 51 out here, just over the mountain range from me.
		But there's no question about what it was.
		There's also no question about what it is not.
		Now, we were not the only ones to have seen it in the valley this night.
		Many people in the valley saw it and reported it.
		And the newspaper out here made a call to Nellis Air Force Base.
		And in fact, I didn't even report it to the newspaper.
		This was in the next week's paper, you know, that Nellis had been called because so many people had seen this.
		And Nellis responded with something like, and I'm paraphrasing, yes, it was possible that a secret mission overflew the Prump Valley on that date or that evening, but that it was a C-130 aircraft.
		That's right, a C-130 aircraft.
		And I tell you folks, I was in the Air Force and I rode in C-130s and they're really big, prop-pitch airplanes, and they make a lot of noise and would have rattled my teeth.
		And I can absolutely assure you, what I looked up and saw, what Ramona looked up and saw, was a large, black, metallic-looking, you know what?
		I should retract that.
		Large, black.
		I can't say metallic-looking.
		You can sort of think metal, because that's generally what aircraft are made out of, right?
		But it was large, black, silent, and either defying gravity or floating.
		That's what we saw.
		I made all the reports you're supposed to make to the various agencies.
		And I was embarrassed for the Air Force in coming up with that explanation for what had been a C-130.
		God.
		And then I thought very hard about it before I went on the air, because I talk about this kind of thing.
		That's what this program is all about, the unusual.
		Well, this was really unusual.
		And I thought very hard about it.
		Should I even report that I've seen something like this, even though I had my wife with me?
	Because doing this kind of a program, people are going to go, oh, come on.
	Sorry.
	That's what I saw.
	And ultimately, I decided I should tell the truth and tell what I saw.
	And that's how we're going to start out the conversation, talking about these for real, and they are for real.
	I can't say that about a lot of things I talk about on the air because I don't know it to be true.
	But Column, I know what I saw, and it was a large black triangle so close to me, Column, that if I'd had senses about me, I could have thrown a rock at the thing just about.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that sounds like a really spectacular sighting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What year was that, by the way?
		See, I knew you'd ask that.
		I don't remember.
unidentified		It could have been 10 years ago?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, about Ramona will rush in eventually and tell me, probably.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But yeah, in that range, right.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Because we got interested in the Black Triangle phenomenon, and your case sounds almost identical to the standard issue description that we've got for, I think we're running up towards 500 separate sightings of these objects all around the United States.
		But what really began the black triangle phenomenon from our perspective was the famous Illinois St. Louis, Missouri sightings that happened January 2000.
		And that was on the morning, the early morning of January 5th.
		We got a call from a police officer in Highland, Illinois, who was reporting this exactly what you've described, this gigantic silent triangle that had just gone over.
		And it was heading in a southwesterly direction from Highland to Lebanon.
		And then it actually passed over the outer perimeter of Scott Air Force Base, which is one of the larger Air Force bases in the area.
		Heading in a southwesterly direction, as you mentioned, about 30 miles an hour, making no attempt to be stealthy.
		And it had a lot of bright lights on it, too.
		The interesting thing about this was the cop who had called it in also radioed on ahead to the next precinct and told them, You know, get outside and wait for this thing.
		You're going to see a light show in a minute.
		And that's exactly what they did.
		Police officers in four separate precincts on that same morning saw this same object heading in a southwesterly direction, no more than two or three hundred feet above the ground and completely silent.
		This thing was emitting very, very strong lights, and it was a rough triangular wedge-shaped thing about the size of a football field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when I saw on the website tonight, I saw the NIDS photograph.
		I just couldn't resist putting up my own.
		Following our sighting, we had quite a long discussion with an artist in order to provide an absolutely or as close to absolutely accurate picture right down to the geography and the mountains in the background and the whole schmear as we could.
		And so what you see there really is exactly, precisely what we saw.
		And I guess, like everybody else, I want to know what we're dealing with here.
		What is it NIDS believes we're dealing with here?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've gone through a really sort of lengthy evolution in our thinking because when we first started gathering all of these cases, they were very much pretty well all the same standard explanations.
		You have, I think, really well encapsulated exactly what the majority of the eyewitnesses have been telling us from all around the country.
		So these things are certainly not rare.
		We have up to almost 500 cases now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how long have you been getting the reports?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, the actual sightings go back to the 1980s, but as we sort of ramped up our information gathering, the vast majority of the sightings that we have in our database begin at 1998 and then just continue.
		There's a dramatic increase, 1998 to 1999, then 2000, 2001.
		It's really interesting.
		There was almost 250 cases leading up to September 2001, and then there was a dramatic falloff all through 2002.
		2003, they began to increase again, and 2004 again.
		But there was a dramatic decrease, and I can only speak for our database.
		I'm not sure if that is, you know, other organizations are collecting these kinds of data too.
		But we noticed a dramatic decrease in 2002.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Somebody just named Kay in Los Angeles writes, you and your guest tonight should be aware that while triangle-type ships are being reported more these days, there are sighting reports of these kinds of ships going back actually several centuries.
		The famous researcher Desmond Leslie lists a few dozen historical accounts, including these black triangle ships, in the book Flying Saucers Have Landed, which you no doubt own.
		I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe the sighting dates back to the 15th century, so that, to me, makes it rather dubious that they could be our military smile devices.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a very good point, because if we have cases going back to the 1960s, and we've done a lot of backtracking since about two years ago, when we had about 200 cases or so,
		we published what we thought was a correlation in terms of the Air Force military bases around the country and an apparent concentration of these black triangle sightings in the vicinity of those bases and also in the flight paths between these bases.
		I'm specifically talking about Air Force Materiel Command and Air Mobility Command, Air Force bases.
		Now, about two or three months ago, we launched an updated review of the data with an awful lot more, a couple hundred more cases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does NIDS believe, it says on the website here, that the hypothesis that I guess you are holding on to is that these BBDs could be lighter-than-air blimp-like military vehicles of some kind, BBDs standing for what, big black deltas?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, big black deltas.
		That is the hypothesis we floated a couple of years ago, yes.
		Now, I should mention since then we have had a re-examination of the data.
		Oh.
		And I can certainly say that the data that we have right now, if you plot it on a map of the United States, and not only you plot the Air Force Material Command, Air Mobility Command bases, but you plot standard cities, highways, you name it on the map of the United States, what you see is something really interesting.
		There is a much stronger correlation between the big black triangles and the main interstate highways in the United States, as well as the cities.
		And that really causes us to take a second look at the hypothesis of a military stealth project, because the locations of the vast majority of the new sightings that we have are located, as I mentioned, on interstate highways, which is completely inconsistent with a stealth project.
		In other words, if you take on the west coast interstate 5 and you begin in Vancouver, Canada, you go all the way through Seattle and you move down to Portland and then through Eugene, these triangular objects follow that main highway all the way down to L.A. and south of LA they go down to San Diego.
		There is an unmistakable Association with number one, the interstate highways, and number two, the main population centers.
		So we're looking at objects that are adhering to main population.
		I mean, most of the population travels on the interstate highways as opposed to the smaller highways.
		So we are revising our hypothesis about the city.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there any reason, any motivation that you can even dream about that would cause the military to want to have their top secret aircraft seen by a lot of people?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		It is completely inconsistent with what happened with the B-2 bomber when it was still not talked about and unacknowledged.
		Same thing with the F-117, the F-117 fighter bomber.
		None of these craft were flown down highways.
		Now, again, these objects are not flying across the highways.
		They're actually flying down the highways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, it's almost like they're following the highways.
		And Interstate 5 is not the only example that we have.
		If you look at the map, in Colorado, you've got I-25 that runs north-south through the entire state, starting off at Cheyenne in Wyoming, going all the way through Fort Collins, all the way down through Denver, down to Pueblo, you've got them dotted along that same highway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many reports do you have that caused you to realize that that's where the majority of the sightings were occurring along interstates?
		Do you have a large proportion?
		I mean, when did it jolt you?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, it jolted us when we added the newest data to the map, and then we flipped it from the Air Force bases.
		What we were doing was plotting the Air Force bases on the map of the United States and plotting the locations of the Black Triangle sightings.
		And up to about 200, 250, there seemed to be a correlation.
		However, with the newest groupings, and I should mention also, we've asked Larry Hatch, who is probably one of the biggest private UFO databases in the world, for his data set.
		And also we've asked MUFON for their data set.
		And we've also plotted them on the same kinds of maps.
		So we have three separate databases.
		And they are looking very, very similar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you conclude that these are not our own craft, and you do so on the basis of the seeming public exposure they want to have, then there aren't many other choices, are there?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		There are not many other choices, but I also believe that there is a stealth craft that is being flown in and out of various locations.
		And it is a very large triangular object.
		I say that for several reasons.
		Number one, we have reports of these objects being seen on the ground from Teekaboo Peak on the ground at Groom Lake.
		That's number one.
		Number two, we have reports of one of these objects on approach into Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Column, I would sure like to know, when did the report of the triangular craft at Groom Lake, that's Area 51, folks, when did you get that?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		97, I believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		97.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I'll have to check it.
		97.
		And the eyewitness was able to triangulate how big this thing was because the landing lights, how many landing lights it blotted out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The one we saw had landing lights.
		In fact, folks, if you go, we're going to take a break here, Colin.
		If you go to the website, coastalcoastaam.com, you'll see the NIDS photograph up there.
		Then you'll see the artist's rendition very, very carefully put together in every respect of exactly what Ramona and myself saw.
		And you can actually see how big it appeared to our eyes from where we were.
		This thing was a monster.
		And I guarantee you, folks, we really saw it.
		from the high desert in the night.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Coast to Coast AM
		To talk with Art Bell.
		Call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800618-8255.
		International callers may recharge by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast, and worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast to Coast Day Out with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you, when you've seen something like this, it changed.
		It just sort of changes your view of everything because, I don't know, because you've had personal exposure to it.
		Now, Ramona was just in here reminding me that a program we were doing at the time in Las Vegas called Area 2000, a program about the unusual to some degree funded by Robert Bigelow, we were actually doing that program when this incident occurred.
		So that may roughly date it whenever it was that Area 2000 was going on.
		That's when it happened.
		Bigelow is a very very wealthy man who lives in Las Vegas, Nevada, who quietly funds a great deal more than you know about.
		You know about some of it, NIDS, for example, and a lot of other scientific inquiry, some of which is made public and a lot of which obviously is not made public for various sound reasons.
		But Robert Bigelow funded in part Area 2000 all those years ago.
		And that's when it happened and that would date it a little bit.
		Do you remember offhand when that was?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I don't have a date for that, but my guess would be close to 10 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I think this incident occurred about a decade ago.
		I really think it's pretty much accurate.
		Anyway, so then you're contending that you believe some are legitimate military experimental craft and others not.
		Is that that timeline?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think there's both.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I think there is an unacknowledged aircraft because, you know, as I mentioned, on the tarmac at Groom Lake is pretty in your face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And also on the approach to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
		Now, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is one of the two headquarters of these Air Mobility Command and Air Force Mobility Command, or Air Force Material Command, Scott Air Force Base being the second one.
		I was interested that you mentioned the Nellis Air Force Base had said, yeah, there was a C-130 in the air, because that was exactly what the investigators we sent out to the Illinois sighting in January 2000.
		That's exactly what they were told from Scott Air Force Base.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you've got to be kidding.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we had a C-130 in the air at the time.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I mean, this thing, according to four, actually five separate police officers, would dwarf a C-130 and completely the wrong shape.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not even close.
		Actually, you know what?
		I was embarrassed for Nellis.
		If Nellis had said, you know, we had a secret mission which may have overflown the Prump Valley, and that's all they had said, I'd have gone, oh, okay.
		But I mean, to go on and say it was a C-130, I actually got kind of embarrassed for them and angry at the same time.
		I was like, that's embarrassing.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		It is kind of insulting.
		You know, we had one of the investigators we sent out to Illinois was a retired member of Air Force Office of Special Investigations.
		And he actually gained entrance to Scott Air Force Base and was sitting in the commander's office, commander of AFOSI on Scott Air Force Base.
		And basically, that's what they were told.
		They knew nothing of any unusual aircraft, but there was a C-130 in the air at the time.
		And we know from what the police officers told us that this object went right over the perimeter of Scott Air Force Base.
		And we're not talking several thousand feet.
		We're talking less than 1,000 feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, any unidentified flying object actually having the temerity to go over a U.S. Air Force base, you would think would be dealt with rather quickly, considering there's radar and they would be aware by eyewitnesses, if no other way, that, gee whiz, there's this thing overflying our Air Force base.
		Do we want to go up and see what it is?
		And if we don't, why don't we?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's exactly right.
		Now, your caller, your listener mentioned that they go back to, or she thinks they go back to the 1500s.
		Well, we know that there have been several waves of high-intensity either triangular or boomerang aircraft or UFOs, whatever you want to call them, going all the way back to 1980, especially the Hudson Valley Westchester boomerang.
		It was a very famous series of sightings out in Connecticut and Putnam County, New York, around 1980 to 1985.
		And we're talking literally thousands of eyewitnesses over that five-year period.
		And again, a lot of the eyewitnesses reported that these things were literally floating down the, I believe it's I-84 out there, just floating down the interstate, maybe 300 or 400 feet.
		Sometimes just after dark when it was still rush hour and people were stopping their cars, pulling over to the side, getting out.
		And the photo or the artist's rendition on your website that I just pulled up is the kind of description that a lot of these people were describing.
		So multiple waves, we would say the wave that we have monitored really began in 1998, and it's still going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know that NIDS, of course, deals with good, hard science and tries to stay objective and brings in really world-class investigators and all the rest of that.
		But, you know, there must be times when you folks sit down and discuss some of the questions that my audience would be asking and I'm asking, and that is, if we are being visited, Columb, and we're going to talk about cattle mutilations and all the rest of this sort of thing, but if we are being visited, why have they not announced themselves?
		Why toy with us in such a seemingly childish manner, you know, zooming down freeways, picking up and dismembering cows and dropping them off, and perhaps creating crop circles and doing all these things that we cannot explain.
		It's almost like we're being played with, toyed with in some manner.
		Do you ever sit down and talk about that at NIDS?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we had a discussion actually a couple of weekends ago.
		We had a lot of the board members were in town, the NIDS Science Advisory Board members, and there was a lot of talk about this so-called leaky embargo hypothesis, which is the idea that there is a generalized embargo for galactic civilizations.
		And that one way of beginning the process of contact is the so-called leaky embargo, which is a very sort of surreptitious program to gradually let the citizens know that there's something beyond Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's take that for a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think such a program of slow leak could work so that eventually, maybe not today or tomorrow, but in five or ten years or whatever the plan would call for, when contact actually was made, the American people would be perhaps mildly surprised but would go, well, ho, finally, or, you know, some lesser reaction than panic in what Brookings imagined might occur with contact.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think there's really two parts to that.
		And, you know, the American people in opinion polls have really voiced their opinion time and time again that they would not feel particularly threatened by this kind of thing.
		We have run several nationwide polls run by the Roper Organization.
		And the kind of feedback that we've got is that, you know, most people would not panic.
		They would not sort of head for the hills and sort of buy lots of guns.
		They would carry on and be very cautious.
		However, the other part of that whole thing is how would the scientific community react and how would the political and other community react, religious to an extent too, the so-called upper echelons of society.
		Scientists really have a lot more to lose in this whole game than most other people because there is a potential of the scientific viewpoint being changed fairly rapidly by the sudden appearance of aircraft that defy the laws of physics, for example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, there would be a great upset, to be sure.
		But again, my question was, just imagine that such a scenario is actually underway.
		Do you think it would be successful?
		Do you think that the Roper surveys that Robert commissioned are sort of an absolute indication that it is working?
unidentified		This slow leak approach?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		It's really difficult to verify that because you have the ridicule factor which permeates society, which permeates especially the elite parts of society.
		So it's a really open question whether or not the political apparatus in this country is any more open to the whole concept than it was 30 or 40 years ago.
		And if you're hypothesizing a leaky embargo, this leaky embargo sort of gradual appearance scenario has been operating at full tilt since 1947, which is, what, almost 60 years now?
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or how about this?
		That this sort of, I don't know, spotty delivery of information that gets laughed at and eyewitness reports that get laughed at and all the rest of it, or even stuff that makes people sort of mildly curious, like video that's been captured and the rest of that, which is more impressive yet.
		All of this is actually sort of a military disinformation program and that people like myself doing programs on this kind of thing are perhaps dupes of the military and we're just helping them continue to see to it that their secret military projects are laughed at.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That could well be true.
		That is superimposed on a long-term program of gradual introduction.
		This program could be a 200-year program.
		I mean, there really is no way of assessing that because there's nothing to compare it against.
		But what you've just said about mixing information with disinformation, I think is a very classic way of operating.
		The other aspect of this whole business is what Jacques Vallé would call the sort of deliberate introduction of absurdity into this equation, and that is there are so many cases of UFOs Doing very,
		very strange things or occupants of UFOs being reported to sort of do completely weird things like offering people cakes or offering them food.
		There are several cases in France that happened in the 1950s, 1960s where that was documented.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds like a housewarming present.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly, where there's really no logic to what happens.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		So Jacques Volley would say that that is part of a potential long-term program where the absurdity is used as a learning tool, where people are exposed to absurd things, there's confusion, it's a way of psychologically insisting on learning, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about this?
		Any ideas on if this were a military craft, what its function might be?
		I mean, yes, it moves silently, but it was ever so visible.
		In fact, it blotted out the sky, and it was so low and so slow that, you know, you wouldn't need a golden BB to bring one of those down.
		What military application might there be?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's strange.
		Just before the show, I got an email from this guy at an aerospace company, and what he said was, I've heard that these are triangular-shaped dirigibles that the Army, I think in brackets, are flying around.
		They are antenna arrays that are in violation of some treaty, so they're keeping them quiet.
		And then this especially makes sense seeing that Lockheed Martin now owns Goodyear Aerospace.
		In other words, we're talking about a very large blimp with extremely sophisticated antenna arrays, something that could be parked at 100,000 feet and essentially monitor everything.
		So you could park it over Afghanistan, you could park it over Iraq, and you would own every signal that's coming in and out of that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I hadn't thought of an application of that sort.
		That's absolutely fascinating.
		You're right.
		We have satellites, but to be virtually stationary at, say, 100,000 feet, you would indeed own every transmission made by anything over a very wide geographic area.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and we've had people come forward before to NIDS and say, you know, these things are designed to stay up there for weeks.
		You know, it's kind of like the equivalent of a submarine.
		You know, you go down under the water for weeks at a time.
		These things come in and out of, for example, Area 51, but they stay up where they're parked for weeks at a time, and they monitor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Column, here's the other thing, the other question about all this, and that is, if the military has something like this, and if, I don't know, aliens, I guess, are also manifesting something like this in our sky.
		I just, well, where am I going with this?
		I want so to know what this is about.
		I want to know what we're facing.
		And if they're both up there, it just confuses the issue all the more.
		And I want to get out so badly, I want to get to the bottom of all this while I'm still alive.
		I want to know what's going on.
		Will we know what's going on while we're still alive?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, if you look at this whole leaky embargo thing and you take it seriously, this could go on ad infinitum.
		You know, time could be, you know, our lifetimes could be fairly small in terms of the kinds of length of time that this program could go on.
		But, you know, one of the things that we've been looking at is since we discovered this relationship with the interstate highways in the United States, we know that the Europeans were absolutely inundated with these black triangles, especially Belgium in 1989 to 1990.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, they went as far as launching F-16 fighters in response to these things because their ground radar picked them up on several occasions.
		And there is a really interesting map of Belgium where all of the sightings, or many of the sightings, are plotted on that same map.
		And you can see exactly the same as in the United States.
		They conform to the main highways in the country.
		Between Liège and Huey and also Vervier and Liège, there's dozens and dozens of sightings that lie along the main highways.
		So, you know, something as crude and ridiculous as navigation using these large highways may not be out of the question.
		It may almost be sort of either a display, you know, that there's a lot of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I might buy off on display, but I don't know about navigation.
		If they've got to use our interstate signs to get from point A to point B in a triangle to find gravity, then I just don't buy that.
		Hold on, Column.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Oh, look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Time cuts off for the right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hiram, take a right.
unidentified		Well, I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I have found I have to get on the hair of what I am It's all clear to me now My heart is on fire This is the
		madhouse, it's my kiddie call My people can't move down the moon and start Where am I to go now that I've gone too far?
		And if I'm standing through the twilight zone The race in my house feels like being loud My people can't move down the moon and start Where am I to go now that I've gone too far?
		It's too far, too far, too far When I'm on the moon and start So do what I'm on the moon When I'm on the moon and start When I'm on the moon and start To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West to the Rockies, call ART at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Enigmatic and frustrating, very frustrating.
		Oh, man is doing this kind of work and this kind of program frustrating.
		This kind of material, black triangles, animals being mutilated and laid back down.
		Crop circles, some of which, of course, we know were fake, but a lot of which were not.
		I mean, things going on on Earth that clearly point toward the possibility of our having visitors, and it is so frustrating not to know exactly what it is.
		I just can't tell you.
		You know, I think I should add that NIDS is available to you.
		Now, NIDS has top-level PhD scientists on staff, and in the right circumstance, they will dispatch these people to any point really in the world and investigate unusual phenomena of all sorts, whether it's cattle mutilations or sightings that rise to a certain level or, you know, whatever.
		They really can.
		They have the resources, the money to do all of this, and they are almost, I suppose, unique in that regard.
		And they have a hotline set up, at least you used to have.
		It's been a while since you've been on the show, Colin.
		Do you still have the hotline?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		We do have a hotline, but it's not operated tonight.
		But anytime during the next week, starting Monday, people could call 702-798-1700.
		We do not have people manning the phones tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Area code 702-798-1700, right?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what sorts of things typically rise to the level where you would dispatch somebody on scene?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		We would really like to prioritize multiple witness sightings.
		That is more than obviously two or three, four people, if possible.
		If there's any level or suggestion of physical evidence, that would help enormously.
		In other words, sometimes these objects interact with the vegetation.
		Sometimes things drop off these objects.
		Anything to do with physical evidence will get our interest big time.
		But, you know, I have to say over 90% of the cases that come into us are lights in the sky, essentially.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can see, just by giving out the number, folks, please don't call right now.
		I can hear the phone lines that needs ringing in the background.
		And inevitably, that occurs when you give out a phone number.
		This is now a Monday through Friday operation, I take it.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, normally I would have had people manning the phones, but not tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fine.
		Please wait until Monday.
		At any rate, so multiple witness sightings.
		When there's cattle mutilations, for example, a serious case of cattle mutilations, would that cause your organization to move some scientists toward a farmer's field somewhere?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and it has in the past.
		Probably the fastest we've ever responded was a case of cattle mutilation that happened up on the ranch property up in northeastern Utah.
		We had three people up there within seven hours of the call, which is not bad, actually, in terms of reaction time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not bad at all.
		As I mentioned, a lot of water has gone onto the bridge since we last talked.
		So what has been the state of ufology since we last talked?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, the state of ufology has really focused on the black triangles in the last couple of years.
		But, you know, we have got a tremendous variety of reports coming in.
		And one of the things that we've noticed is in any of the cases that have to do with physical evidence, we have tended to obviously focus on those.
		And every time that we've applied scientific analysis to physical evidence, it has come out with a mundane explanation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Peter Davenport also Runs a sighting center in the state of Washington, and inevitably the sightings he gets, the good ones, he records eyewitness reports, plays them back, does that sort of thing, and he literally reports everything of substance.
		Now, that's not necessarily the case with NIDS, is it?
		In other words, and there's been some criticism about that, Colin, because occasionally NIDS will get in the middle of a scientific investigation of some sort or another and find reason to not release all details or everything about it right away.
		So you're an investigative organization, and you don't always report everything to the American public, do you?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, we are an investigative organization.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		We're not a reporting center.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		So, I mean, there's a fundamental difference between being a reporting center and an investigative.
		We maintained at a very early stage that it was necessary to have sufficient scientific evidence before publishing.
		And many, many, many cases that we get, I would say the vast majority of cases, do not meet that requirement.
		So yes, I'm aware that we've been accused of hiding data and that kind of thing.
		But if we get any investigative results that meet the criterion of being substantiated in any way, we do publish them on our website.
		And we have always done that, but very, very few cases out of that number rise to that level.
		Otherwise, being a reporting agency is a completely different function from being an investigative agency.
		Certainly it is.
		Especially using the scientific method.
		We have a science advisory board that does hold our feet to the fire in terms of the kinds of stuff that is published.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So NIDS is on a straight line, continuing to do as it always has done, or have there been changes in policy and direction for the organization of recent days?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've had a new staff member come on in the last couple of months.
		Dr. Bruce Cornett is now the deputy administrator of NIDS.
		In terms of the kinds of cases we deal with, we have narrowed the focus to pretty well the cases I just mentioned, that multiple witness sightings, close encounters, anything to do with physical evidence are the vast majority of the cases that we try to focus on.
		Now, the black triangles obviously are not in that category, but we do continue to collect those kinds of data.
		But we do not spend much time or effort on lights in the sky, essentially.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, triangles in the sky, theirs and ours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Column, I'm forced to ask you, do you believe, does NIDS believe, that the military has had contact with aliens?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Contact with aliens?
		We have had information over the last several years that seems to indicate that certainly pieces of technology have been recovered.
		Now, I don't think that actually meets the question that you just asked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It gets close, but in other words, we may have recovered craft or technology that we have back-engineered.
		I mean, if we have ours and theirs in the sky, and there's any relationship, then it's an obvious question.
		Either they gave us technology, either their technology crashed, we back-engineered it, or one of the above.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of the lines of evidence that we've had, and we're really talking about whispered conversations kind of thing, seems to suggest that there is technology has been recovered.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, there definitely is not a smoking gun from that perspective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you recall the testimony given by a colonel once who said that he actually was releasing technology into U.S. industry that had been recovered from Roswell, the crash?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		This was Colonel DeCorso.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		Yes.
		How did you digest that information?
		How did you feel about that?
		I had three opportunities to interview him.
		He was very compelling.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and we spend a lot of time interviewing him, too, kind of off the record.
		And I think there's a really big difference between the kinds of data and information that he was talking about when he was on one-on-one interviews versus what actually ended up in the book that he wrote the day after Roswell.
		I think there's a lot of stuff in that book that is very difficult to stand behind.
		There were a number of different things that he talked about during the interviews with NIDS people, among them an encounter with some kind of a being at White Sands Missile Base that did ring true from the eyewitness perspective.
		In other words, we could not find any reason to disbelieve him.
		He also did talk about working with this General Trudeau and having some kind of a program ongoing.
		People at NIDS went into the military and tried to falsify that and were not able to falsify it.
		In other words, those reports of technology being back-engineered via industry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you mean falsify or verify?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Falsify.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it reached a stage where we can't confirm or deny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		So we were not able to falsify that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Do you believe that Area 51, since you're near at home, remains active with the kind of thing that we certainly know was going on years ago?
		Do you think it remains a center for the testing of the black technologies we have?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
		The only information we have is that the same numbers of aircraft seem to be going in and out of the facility.
		I don't know if the focus has shifted into a new direction or if new centers around the country have opened up.
		We have no idea.
		Traditionally, we have kind of stayed away from spending a lot of time on Area 51 because the vast majority of the stuff that comes out of Area 51 is not really in the bailiwick of NIDS.
		In other words, it's not unidentified.
		Sure.
		So we have tended to stay away, with the exceptions of these large triangular objects that are associated with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, except, of course, you've got to bear in mind there's a lot of cross-pollination.
		In other words, a lot of things that are perhaps dispatched from Area 51 are seen and reported to you as possible alien craft.
		So, you know, there's going to be that cross-pollination inevitably.
		And you would think, obviously, they're not going to publish a flight schedule for you.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But yes, I'm sure a lot of that is reported.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so I don't know.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		We suspect that there's a lot of UAV testing going on out there, for example.
		And that's one of the things that we've kept an eye on is the kinds of UFO reports that we've been getting matching them against the UAV databases.
		UAV standing for unmanned aerial vehicles.
		In other words, the kinds of the predator and the globehawk.
		There are dozens and dozens of different sizes, different shapes of these unmanned aerial vehicles flying around now and being tested and being deployed.
		Some of them have very unusual looking shapes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, yes.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And we've had several cases where people have reported to us very, very small sort of six inch to a foot type objects that are obviously intelligently controlled, and they fly in very unusual ways.
unidentified		Are they UFOs or are they UAVs?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's a question that we look at.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of the various stories of contact over the years that have manifested, Column, and when I say contact, I mean people who claim to have been taken aboard craft, people who claim to have had close encounters of the third type at least, are there any that needs particularly regards as credible?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Are you talking about abductions then?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there was a case we dealt with fairly recently where we thought there was physical evidence.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And I don't want to go into too much detail, and there's actually a second one, too, that falls into the same category where physical evidence in association with abductions is considered a holy grail, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much detail can you give me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you get somewhat generic and give me an idea of what we're talking about?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can go through the case pretty well because this was an entire family out in California who had multiple, multiple encounters in their home over several year period.
		And they were obviously very stressed because all family members, except one actually, were having these encounters with creatures in their home.
		So they began to formulate a plan to actually begin to try to measure or to get physical evidence.
		And one of those efforts involved putting a towel down on the floor, and underneath that towel was an aluminum foil.
		The idea was to get footprints.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And sure enough, they did get footprints.
		After a particularly intense series of encounters, they found this object embedded in the towel that was, it looked like a claw, a small claw.
		And this was physical evidence that was directly in association with a bunch of anomalous encounters.
		And we're talking dozens and dozens of encounters in different houses because this family moved a couple of times because of the high stress levels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can imagine, what did the claw turn out to be?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was the interesting thing.
		We went to the wall on this case because we thought it was sufficiently interesting.
		We put it through multiple rounds of DNA analysis, and I'm talking seven or eight separate rounds of DNA analysis.
		First, several analysis came up with something that looked or did not match anything in the databases that we knew about.
		Eventually, and there was some very, very talented people who worked on this project.
		Eventually, what they did was they went back to square one and used a completely different Form of analysis.
		And eventually they nailed what this object was.
		It was a terrestrial mundane mollusk, or it was a dried-up snail that was embedded in the towel.
		And the reason that was it took about nine months to do this project.
		The reason it was so difficult was that snails tend to secrete a thick mucus that is loaded with chemicals that stop the normal DNA analysis procedure.
		And so we were getting results from several different types of analysis, several different types of directions that seem to suggest that this did not match with any DNA that was known.
		So naturally we were getting really interested.
		We were getting more and more interested as time was going on.
		And we spent a lot of money.
		We spent a lot of time on this.
		But the long and the short of this whole thing was that even though the explanation itself was fairly mundane, that does not necessarily detract from the experiences of this family.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, not at all.
		But it grabs and just shakes right out, grabs right out of your hand a piece of solid evidence that you thought was connected to it.
		That's got to be incredibly frustrating.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That was very frustrating.
		We've had several cases like that where apparently physical evidence in association with one of these, what looks like a very interesting case, it just turns out to be mundane.
		The physical evidence itself turns out to be mundane.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Columb, hold on.
		We're at a breakpoint and we'll be right back.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		I can see it coming in the air tonight.
		I can see it coming in the air tonight.
		He's got this dream about finding some land.
		He's gonna give up the booze and the one-night stands And then he'll settle down It's a quiet little town And forget about everything But you know he'll always keep moving Though he's never gonna stop moving Cause he's rolling He's the rolling stone When you
		wake up, it's a new morning The sun is shining, it's a new morning You're going, you're going home The sun is shining, it's a new morning talk with art bells.
		Call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may recharge by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Imagine how frustrating that would be.
		To have something, physical evidence, actually, that you thought was not of Earth to go along with an absolutely credible story of abduction and to spend all that time and money doing the DNA test to find out you had a snail on your hands.
		Imagine.
		Imagine the frustration.
		Yes, very, very frustrating.
		Column, I'm curious about something.
		SETI, the organization looking for intelligent life up near the hydrogen frequency or now with laser or whatever, they've been at it for a number of years, and a statement's been made recently that, you know, if we don't come up with something, despite what we've surveyed already,
		and say another, I don't know, X number of years, we're going to be forced to make a statement that says, basically, look, we've surveyed this much of the sky, and we haven't found anything, and we've got to admit that's suggesting the possibility that there is nothing.
		Is there going to get to be that point with NIDS where, despite the best efforts and years and lots of dollars expended, you're going to be forced to say we don't have the smoking gun.
		After all these years and all this investigation, we don't have the smoking gun.
		So maybe all of this comes from imaginations, overactive imaginations.
		Maybe all these reports of abductions and sightings are just, well, whatever they are, but not real.
		Is there going to come that point?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that physical evidence is the only way to go because, I mean, that's what we're set up to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That's why NIS was created, was to go after the physical evidence.
		Once you abandon that and you start invoking other dimensions and what have we, it becomes an endless circle.
		So we're going to continue for as long as it takes, but your question is a very good one.
		We have not got any physical evidence right now that we would regard as a smoking gun.
		And that physical evidence is materials analysis or DNA analysis, like the one that I briefly described.
		But we've done multiple, multiple physical elemental analysis on everything from implants to, or alleged implants to objects that are associated with abductions.
		And like I mentioned, every single one Of those has come down with a mundane explanation.
		Now, you could certainly hypothesize that maybe we're missing something.
		Maybe that this is advanced nanotechnology that is made to look like ordinary pieces of aluminum.
		But we're using what we consider the best available technology.
		And if there was any hint of anything from, quote-unquote, extraterrestrial sources, the obvious way to look at it would be to look at isotope ratios.
		And every single examination that we've done on everything from pieces of objects that have come out of people's sinus cavities or objects that have come out of other extremities, they all said the same thing.
		They're all terrestrial.
		In many cases, they have a mundane explanation.
		We had a very, very high-quality interview with a family.
		It was a mother-daughter, and another child who wasn't there had a very intense abduction experience just outside San Francisco.
		They came to our office here at NIDS, and we spent almost a day carefully interviewing several people involved.
		And there is no doubt in our minds that these people absolutely believed that outside San Francisco one night that this large object came right over their car.
		They pulled over their car.
		And both the mother and the daughter remembered that the husband was left in the car while the mother and daughter were floated up into this object.
		And after that event, the mother began to feel discomfort up in her sinus cavities.
		And make a long story short, one morning she was shaking her head because it was particularly uncomfortable, and something popped out, and she noticed it in the wash basin.
		So she brought it along to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here we go again.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		You know, we conducted x-ray analysis on this object, and it turned out that it was nickel-plated brass.
		It was a small rectangular object.
		Well, it turned out once the people who looked into it pretty closely found that it was one of these little metal brass objects that holds toothbrush bristles in place.
		Now, whatever happened on that morning when the thing suddenly appeared in the wash basin, after she had shook her head and felt like something had dropped out of her nose, that does not, again, take away from the very compelling testimony that both the mother and the daughter separately told to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand, but it's like the snail.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just like the snail.
		And short of any physical evidence, I mean, does that mean that one day NIDS is going to have to say, well, look, we've been on the hunt now for 20 years with the best people that money can buy, and we've got to say there's no physical evidence.
		You know, we've got to make this statement.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we can also, yeah, we can probably be pretty comfortable making that statement.
		But as these cases accumulate, and there are several others, there was a case where a pretty spectacular UFO sighting just outside Grand Junction, Colorado a few years ago, where this object dropped off a UFO.
		And we put it through probably close to a dozen sets of pretty sophisticated elemental analysis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, wait a minute.
		This object dropped off a UFO.
		Could you clarify that a little?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean?
		Well, according to two eyewitnesses who were in a car, they had a relatively close encounter with this craft.
		And as it was leaving, they noticed something dropping onto the road.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And so they picked it up.
		It was a fairly sizable object, but elemental analysis and a whole variety of different types of analysis showed that it was basically a form of slag, aluminum slag.
		It had nothing, and we went after the possibility that it would have different isotope ratios and all of that, and it didn't turn out to be the case.
		So we had that case.
		One of our board members is currently investigating yet another case at this time in Belgium where this couple had a close encounter with an object or with a craft, and again, something dropped off the object and landed on the road beside them.
		It was molten when it landed, so they had to wait for it to cool down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Brought it to the board member who then put it through a series of lab tests, and it turned out to be pyrite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pyrite.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Fool's gold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fool's gold.
unidentified		With the emphasis on fools.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, you've got this, what I'm trying to say is you've got this pattern of anomalies.
		And with these patterns of anomalies, there's physical evidence.
		But when you apply the scientific, rigorous methodology to these objects, in 100% of cases, in our experience, and I can only speak for NIDS's experience, it comes out with a terrestrial slash mundane explanation.
		Now, if you go back to the original talk about the leaky embargo hypothesis, maybe that's exactly what this is telling us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That We are, for whatever reason, not being allowed, or whatever word you want to use, to obtain physical evidence of these because maybe it's too early.
		So, your question about 10 years, 20 years, 30 years for NIDS is a good one, but maybe we're not at that stage yet.
		Well, I mean, that's a pure speculation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		What about those things that were witnessed and recorded, I think, very accurately, that did occur at the ranch?
		Now, the ranch, folks, is a ranch where anomalous, very anomalous things began to happen.
		And in some way, NIDS and Robert Bigelow found out about it and literally bought this ranch at the location we won't disclose, and then set up scientific observation posts, if you will, to watch the anomalous activity.
		And on a couple of previous shows, you've reported some of that, some incredible stuff that occurred that has totally no explanation in logic, does it?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the logic part certainly escapes us.
		We have logged close to 100 separate incidents on that property going back to about 1994.
		So we're approaching 10-year anniversary.
		We actually moved onto that property in July, August, 96, which is almost eight years ago.
		And since then, we've been monitoring that property.
		We've had people on the property pretty well continuously.
		We still have people on the property, and there are still the occasional incidents that happen, but nothing like the intensity that happened back in 94 to 97.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it was a lot of intensity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There was a great deal of intensity there.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		There was a great deal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And a lot of it was documented with cameras, either in the absence of what could be seen, the impossibility of it, or whatever.
		In other words, actual documentation existed for quite a bit of it.
		And that demands explanation.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, one good example of what you're talking about, it was in 1998.
		We had a set of six cameras, surveillance cameras, that were running.
		And there were two telephone poles separated by about 300, well, probably like 200 yards.
		And three of the cameras instantaneously lost power at about 8.30 one summer night in 1998.
		And one camera on the second poll was looking at the three cameras that lost power.
		So to make a long story short, it turned out that the wiring had been forcibly ripped out of all three cameras.
		And it would take a lot of strength to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But these cameras were connected to video recorders, right?
		Correct.
		So you had cameras virtually watching cameras.
		Yes.
		And this physical destruction occurred while the cameras were watching.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and it was still the end of the afternoon, evening where there was still enough light for the camera that was watching the three cameras to have enough resolution to see somebody coming up to the place and ripping off the wires from the cameras.
		Now, at the same time, there was a PVC piping where the video wires led into the ground that was also forcibly ripped off the telephone poles.
		So there was a lot of force used in this particular operation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And during that entire time when that happened, there was a camera watching which, in review of the whole time, saw nothing.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely nothing.
		And, you know, we went through the process of video enhancement and digital enhancement to make sure that we were missing nothing.
		And we even had enough resolution on the camera that was watching the three cameras that were disabled that we could actually see the lights, the characteristic red lights underneath these cameras going off.
		And it corresponded exactly to the time stamp on the cameras that lost power.
		So we were able to triangulate the sequence of events pretty accurately.
		The only thing that was wrong with this whole thing was that there was nothing associated with the cameras losing power.
		There was not enough resolution to see the actual wires coming out of the cameras, but we could see the cameras losing power because those red lights underneath of the cameras were exactly corresponding to the colours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there would be no way that a person who's doing this damage could have gone not seen.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely no way.
		These telephone poles were located on open ground.
		So it was not like they were in the middle of trees or anything where people could hide.
		There was no way for a person even crawling along the ground where they could not have been seen.
		It was just not a feasible operation.
		And we know that the cameras lost power at that time because of the time stamps.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So something that was invisible did this.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		Well, something that was not picked.
		Yeah, something that was not picked up by the cameras.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Okay, so this stuff then is going on, despite the fact that we can't get physical proof of it going on, whatever it is.
		And that would almost automatically, it seems to me, make NIDS force NIDS to look at the possibility that it's not extraterrestrial perhaps in origin, but as at least one possibility that the phenomena is associated with,
		you know, I hate to go into other dimensions here, but you're almost forced into doing it, Almost forced into that, at least considering it, aren't you?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're forced to consider that every single analysis, physical analysis that we've done, has come up with something terrestrial.
		And in each case, those physical objects have been associated with anomalies.
		So if there is a terrestrial explanation to these phenomena, then yes, you would invoke some kind of a dimensional hypothesis.
		And, you know, it goes back to this, what is the definition of an extraterrestrial?
		Does it also include dimensions or entities or beings or whatever you want to call them that are coexisting on this planet, but we just can't see them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, we've had several incidences on this same property in northeastern U.S. One of them, it seems to me, involved somebody with night vision equipment watching what amounted to a hole in nighttime space opening up with something crawling through it.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is correct, isn't it?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
		And that happened in August of 1997.
		Two very experienced investigators were on this ridge that overlooked the property.
		They were up there specifically to monitor an area where stuff had been happening in the previous weeks.
		So they were there with a purpose.
		And they had their equipment.
		Nothing had happened pretty well all night up till about 2 a.m.
		And they were just packing up.
		They were looking down at the area just before heading off home when one of them spotted a dull yellow light.
		It looked like a sort of a small reflection off glass near the ground, that kind of thing.
		Nothing to notice.
		But then it started getting bigger and bigger.
		And so they decided, okay, let's unpack the equipment and have a look.
		So one guy took his camera out that had infrared foam in it.
		The other person took a pair of Generation 3 night vision binoculars out of the bag and started monitoring what was going on below.
		Through the night vision binoculars, he saw this three-dimensional tunnel.
		The actual light that had expanded to about four feet in diameter now through his night vision binoculars looked like a three-dimensional tunnel.
		And in the tunnel, he saw movement.
		Now, at the same time, the guy who was taking photographs could only see this four-foot diameter dull yellow light down there.
		He could not see this three-dimensional tunnel.
		And through this tunnel, this large black humanoid was crawling.
		It crawled out actually through the tunnel, got out of the tunnel, and vanished into the night.
		It literally used the shoulders to emerge from the tunnel.
		And this guy was watching this through night vision binoculars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it right there, Colin.
		We'll be right back.
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		The heart of it is beautiful.
		And from the millions turned dark to what do you mean?
		We had to get out before the magic got away We were running with the night Playing in the shadows I'm through the night To the morning light We're running
		Oh, oh, oh, oh Running in the night To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What you're hearing tonight in the night, that's what we do run in the night here, is no bull.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just the straight-on facts.
unidentified		No physical evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's facts.
		No physical evidence yet.
		No smoking gun.
		Yet at the same time, you just heard a man describe something that crawled out of a hole.
		It was seen with night vision and to a lesser degree with other equipment.
		Absolutely incredible stuff.
		Incredible.
		But still in all, no physical evidence.
		Not yet.
		I wonder if it didn't crawl out of that glowing hole in the dark and slowly move away only later to become the governor of California.
		Okay.
		Welcome back, Colm.
		Here's where I want to go now very quickly.
		I do want to get to phones, let people ask questions here in a minute.
		But you know, I mean, you just told me some pretty wild stuff, and yet I know it to be true.
		And I also know what I saw and have seen to be true.
		So I mean, this stuff is, on the one hand, going on.
		On the other hand, we don't have the physical evidence.
		So it demands that we start looking at, it seems like to me, things like the possibility of other dimensions, the possibility of life after death and some influence coming from that, behind that curtain, or even time travel, some of these pretty esoteric, strange things.
		But, hey, they've got to be considered, don't they?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And, you know, the ranch also had physical, you know, dead cows on the ranch.
		So, I mean, that was pretty physical, too.
		So one of the things that we were able to do was look at, you know, there was a calf that had been killed over a very, very short period of time on the property in daylight with a couple of people about 300 yards away.
		And we were able to use the techniques of veterinary forensics to absolutely establish that this animal had not been killed by a predator, but had been, sharp instruments had been used on the animal, and a couple of different types of sharp instruments, like a large machete type instrument and a small, more fine, knife kind of instrument.
		So we were able to use the tools of forensics to at least establish that this was not some sort of a predator attack.
		But again, it did not establish the who in this situation.
		And on the same property, we had a whole litany of animals that just disappear into thin air.
		And I'm talking like over a dozen since NIDS has purchased that property.
		And this particular property, it's not all that easy to lose animals.
		I mean, it's a 480-acre property and can be searched pretty easily.
		But in spite of that, close to a dozen animals have never been recovered from the property.
		That's in addition to the animals that have died on the property.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, again, some of these more esoteric things, like I know, for example, that NIDS has spent some effort.
		You know, there's a big life after death controversy, of course.
		Probably always will be.
		I don't know if we'll ever find out until our own moment comes, but I know that NIDS looked at that.
		And there was a whole rash for many years of life after death and near-death experiences and all the rest of that.
		So you've sort of given that a cursory look at least, haven't you?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we have.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		We had several of our board members who were specifically focused on near-death experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any conclusions?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Beyond the obvious, in terms of that it is not just simply a hallucination that has been looked at.
		We don't have any conclusions about near-death experiences.
		In other words, we have no tie-in to the UFO phenomenon either.
		There is a, obviously there's a long tradition in the Native American traditions that do associate these objects, especially orbs and orbs of light, with the afterlife.
		And that, you know, the particular ranch up in Utah was host to numerous different types of orbs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, I hadn't heard that.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		White orbs.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a long, many, many different traditions in the Native American culture associate those orbs with the souls of the dead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes.
		And then there's time travel.
		I mean, there's every reason, it doesn't take a great imaginative mind to think that, well, one day time travel may well be invented.
		That day could be far into the future because it takes a very great deal of power, we think, to accomplish it.
		But it might be done.
		And if so, then there's every reason to believe that we could be visited by people, say, from our future.
		It's not so unreasonable.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That's, yeah.
		From what I know, the physics of time travel is getting more mainstream all the time.
		And this kind of physics is published in mainstream journals as a matter of course, whereas maybe 30, 40 years ago that was not the case.
		But it is not breaking any laws of physics as we know it.
		So there's really no reason apart from, as you mentioned, the energy that would prevent time travel.
		But whether these creatures or whatever they are are coming back from another time, we have no way of knowing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's just one of those things that it is so frustrating.
		I mean, they fly in our skies.
		They crawl through holes that people see.
		They do all these things that people see without leaving physical trace and smoking guns.
		So, I don't know.
		It kind of forces you into these areas.
		Let's kind of explore the phones and see what we get.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Columb Cullaher.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		How are you today?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		Abilene, Texas.
		Okay.
		I had a question for your boy.
		Back in the mid-70s, if he had any ideas, there were lots of reports of cattle mutilation.
		I was in the Air Force, Cannon Air Force Base at Clovis, New Mexico from 1974 to 1977.
		But back in 1975, 76 around Melrose, New Mexico, where we had a bomb range, we had lots of reports of cattle mutilation.
		And I wonder if any of the studies have been done in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, this was in Clovis?
unidentified		Yes, sir, Clovis, New Mexico.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Clovis, New Mexico.
		Come, did NIGS do anything with that?
		Lots of cattle mutilations at that time?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		We looked at quite a few cattle mutilations in northern New Mexico.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Now, Clovis, you said it was in the south?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he said 74, particularly 75.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		74 and 1975.
		We know in the area up around Dulcie, New Mexico, which is around Highway 84, there were dozens of cattle mutilations around that same time.
		Well, a few years later, actually.
		It was more like 1978, 1979, but still in roughly the same period.
		They were investigated by a highway patrol officer there called Gabe Valdez.
		And Gabe Aldez worked as an investigator for NIDS for several years.
		NIDS, as an organization, investigated several cases in New Mexico of cattle mutilations, primarily around Taos, New Mexico, Dulcie, and the northern part.
		But we have not looked at the southern part.
		I'm interested in the southern part because we did not have any data about cattle mutilations in that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		While we're on the subject of New Mexico, there was a recent article, again, this has been a recurring theme for years and years and years, about this doggone hum and noise that appears to come from under the ground, literally to the degree where it keeps people awake in parts of New Mexico and elsewhere, I might add.
		Something going on underground, some vibration, some hum.
		Has NIDS ever gone to look at that?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		No, we have not.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we've heard of the Taos hum, and I believe there's another location where there's a hum, too, but we've never looked into it now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Column Culler.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		This is Fred from Port View, Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Fred.
unidentified		I have a question for you and one for your guest.
		I've had several experiences with UFOs sightings and four possible abductions.
		I would like to ask your guest, has he ever done any, or his organization ever done any research on people that claim to be abductees, their brain patterns being different from other people that have never been abducted?
		I've been told by Stanton Friedman and Pete Davenport, several other MUFON researchers, that the abductees seem to be operating or people that see UFOs tend to have a different, they operate at a different frequency, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so that's a very reasonable question because it has a scientific basis, if it's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Any difference in recorded brain patterns from abductees to non?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I do know of a confidential study that's underway right now with MRI that is looking at exactly that question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How confidential, is it?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		It is unfortunately confidential because of the location of where it's happening.
		But if anybody wants to contact me offline, I can give them some information about it.
		But it is looking exactly at brain patterns in people who are reporting abductions versus people who are not.
		And looking at those brain patterns under a variety of circumstances.
unidentified		That's it.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		See if there's any differences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Cullum Cullaher.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		Column.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I wanted to make three little statements here about maybe the triangles being dirigibles.
		Now, I saw a Goodyear blint before it was retired last year, and it had turbofans or something on it.
		And you could hear it distinctly about 300 feet in the air.
		So if this big triangle is like three times that big, it'd have to have at least six, eight, eighty of these engines.
		Now, as for going 100,000 feet in the air, the winds aloft alone would seem to me to just tear that thing to pieces, how it would get up that high with all the winds.
		And the last one is, you know, over the Air Force bases, couldn't they put a mode seed transponder in there and make it look like a C-130 even though it didn't move like one, but you know, have records of a C-130 in the area?
		I mean, these Air Force bases need to know type situations and everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Colin.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, the last point is definitely feasible.
		But the fact is, there were so many different eyewitnesses, and I'm speaking about the Illinois case, that saw this object going right over them.
		And in addition to the four or five cops that saw this object, we went on the ground out there and we beat the bushes.
		We got an additional 20 eyewitnesses, many of whom saw this object up close and personal.
		And there was absolutely no way it was anything like a C-130, but it could have had a transponder signature that corresponded to a C-130 that was picked up.
		That's definitely possible.
		In terms of the other questions, the information that we've got for this thing is this is not a dirigible in the usual understanding of dirigible.
		This is a very sturdy, high-tech, composite object.
		In other words, we're not talking about just a standard dirigible that goes up to 100,000 feet.
		This thing is built for those altitudes.
unidentified		Okay, what about propulsion, though?
unidentified		There still should have been some noise, you know, because even if it's, you know, what, helium or whatever filled or something, that light that makes it float, it still has to have some kind of propulsion.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and you know, some of the eyewitnesses and some of the witnesses that report these objects do talk about a very low-frequency hum sometimes associated.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Some people say, yeah, these things are silent, but other people talk about a very barely discernible hum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know that we have come a long way with sound cancellation technology.
		So it might be possible to virtually cancel or nearly cancel the sound of propulsion, I suppose, on the ground.
		We're making so many advances that it's getting more and more difficult to discern U.S. experimental aircraft, certainly, from those that would be from another planet.
		And that's saying something all by itself, isn't it?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
		And I think we're right in the middle of that whole thing with this black triangle enigma.
		Now, one thing I did not mention is that the United Kingdom has also had a huge number of black triangle sightings beginning in 96, or actually 94, 95.
		So they've had at least as many as the United States has.
		So this is not confined just to North America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		West of the Rockies.
		You're on there with Column Cullagher.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, Art.
		This is Christine from California.
		A huge fan.
		I was so shocked to get through.
		You scared me when you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
unidentified		Well, I just, it's pretty much a comment than a question, I guess.
		The way you were talking about the physical evidence, you know, it always turns out to be, you know, something new ding.
		I remember the story about the snail.
		I think it was on when George was on.
		That story, I heard it.
		But it just seems like they're toying with us on purpose, doesn't it?
		You know, it is.
		Doesn't it seem that way to you almost?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is a question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are they toying with us?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I definitely have heard that before, that it would almost go back to the valet hypothesis of deliberate absurdity, that it's part of some kind of a learning curve, which is not inconsistent with this whole leaky embargo thing.
		That game playing and all of that is part of psychology, is part of learning.
		It could be toying with us or it could be attempting to educate us in some way.
		We've noticed when we were on the property in northeastern Utah, many, many, many of the occurrences appeared to be like some kind of a head game.
		And I think that the ripping out of the wires out of the cameras, like I described there a while back, fits exactly into that category.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's almost into the Poldergeist category.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That is.
		And it's kind of like toying with the usual way of approaching things.
		And the other thing that we noticed with the Utah property was that there was never any repeated incidences.
		So you could never get comfortable, okay, I know how to deal with this particular thing.
		And then something completely different would come in out of left field.
		So you were always in that sort of state of never knowing what to expect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or it always being one step ahead of you.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And so, you know, like the lady had asked, it is a variation on that theme.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somehow, somewhere in all of this, there must be something that tells us what really goes on, is going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We just haven't found it yet.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good summary of what's been happening.
		On this property, we attempted on multiple different occasions to have some kind of communication going with whatever was going on there.
		And we even had alphabet-type bricks arranged in different patterns to see if those patterns were changed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were they ever?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		They were never.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They were never changed.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Never changed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Colm, hold on.
		Columb Kalahara from NIDS is my guest.
		No physical evidence, but no shortage of anecdotal eyewitness type reports either.
		So, what do you make of all this?
		I'm curious.
unidentified		That audience out there, all of you, what do you think?
		Sweet dreams are made of this.
		Who am I to disagree?
		I travel the world and the seven seas.
		Everybody is looking for something.
		Some of them want to use you.
		Some of them want to get used by you.
		Some of them want to abuse you.
		Some of them want to be abused.
		Fingers, I feel it in my toes.
		Love is all around me.
		And so the feeling grows.
		It's written on the wind.
		It's everywhere I go.
		So if you really love me, come on and let it show.
		You know I love you, I always do.
		My mind's made up by the way that I feel.
		There's no beginning, there'll be no end.
		Cause on my love, you can depend.
		I see your face before me.
		As I lay on my bed.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Paul Kelliher, and we're actually on a significant, in fact, a profound, I guess, journey trying to find the truth, a very elusive truth in what's really going on.
		Tomorrow night, for example, I'm going to be interviewing a very interesting fellow called George Green, who has had contact with aliens, and it's another very close contact case, and it'll be fascinating to interview him.
		But it's one more in a very long line of all this anecdotal evidence and no physical evidence.
		It's incredibly frustrating for researchers and people who report on this sort of thing.
		And I hope, Columb, in your tenure, that something resolves.
		Or do you think that it's more likely not?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the track record is definitely where I think it's ambiguous, and I don't see necessarily it changing all that much.
		You know, the abduction, I think one of your guests mentioned abduction.
		We did a so-called multiple witness study with Professor John Mack on the abduction, and we focused on multiple witnesses in order to see if there was any way of corroborating from more than one person with abduction to see, in other words, are we talking physical abduction or are we talking metaphysical abduction?
		And it started off with 200 cases and various criteria focused on about 13 cases that went into in considerable depth, lots of interviews of the abductees.
		And the numbers were brought down to five who were of special interest.
		When those five were looked at with a lot of detail and corroboration and all of that, it turned out that under scrutiny, each of those five individuals or groups of individuals who had been abducted in the same time, same place there was sufficient ambiguity in each of those cases to
		never corroborate the physical aspect of abduction so you know 200 to 13 to 5 to essentially
		To zero, there was no smoking gun in that caseload that would definitively say that person X was watching as person Y was abducted or vice versa or person X and person Y were simultaneously abducted and there was corroboration of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've given people a lot to think about tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Column Culliher.
unidentified		Hello.
		Good morning.
		This is Mike from Dover, Delaware.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Mike.
unidentified		Hi.
		I just want to ask a little bit more about what happened at the ranch.
		What was the timeframe relation between when the figure crawled out of the tube and when the camera equipment was damaged?
		Was that before or after?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		It was before.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		The creature crawled out of the tube in August of 97, and the cameras were damaged, I believe, in June or July of 98.
unidentified		Okay.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And the incidents occurred about 500 yards from each other.
		In other words, the cameras were ripped out about 500 yards away from where the creature crawled out.
		Now, that particular aspect of the creature crawling out, I meant to emphasize, was seen only through the infrared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said the others saw a yellow circular light of some sort or something.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Right.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That's all they could see when that was happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Gotcha.
		Caller, enough?
unidentified		Yes, that's great.
		Thanks a lot.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Cullum Colaher.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Yeah, you guys mentioned the lack of physical evidence.
		I know individuals such as Dr. Roger Lear and Darryl Sims have done some very intriguing research into the alien implant phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely correct, Yes.
unidentified		Yeah, I wonder if he might have any comments, Colin, on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, he does.
		He made some earlier, but let's redo it again.
		Indeed, Dr. Lear and others have removed implanted things from human beings, but you maintain, Colin, do you not, that all of them can be traced to terrestrial materials of one kind or another?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I can only speak for the two implants that were examined by NIDS, and those two did not yield any evidence of being anything other than mundane.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		So I know there was something like eight additional ones that were removed, but after the first two were removed, examined, put through metallurgical analysis, and the results were pretty well normal or mundane, the NIDS Science Advisory Board decided at that stage to terminate further cases of implant analysis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		In other words, every time you hit a brick wall with regard to physical evidence, you move on to another area where you might find it.
		Is that the way it's kind of worked?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		That's the way it has worked in the past, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay, good enough.
		East of the Rockies, you're on there with Cullum Culler.
		Hello?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
unidentified		This is Anthony in Columbia, Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Anthony.
unidentified		I had more of a statement.
		According to Neil Donald Walsh and the Conversation with God trilogy that I've been reading, he states or insinuates in the book that higher evolved beings or what they call hebs are helping us some and especially the last 70 years or so and watching us for their own benefit as well because what we do or don't do affects the whole universe as a whole,
		just as a tragedy in a large metropolis affects the whole nation.
		And we are to learn our lessons on our own.
		And that in ancient times, we had greater technology than we do now.
		And we're getting close again, but we're doing the same screw-ups that we did back then that caused us to destroy ourselves then.
		And their job is to not interfere because at some point we have to learn like a child on our own.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold on a sec.
		Do you think that the prime directive, Colm, is valid?
		In other words, not to interfere in any way to watch, perhaps to, well, I don't know, I guess not interfere in any physical manner with our development.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, that argument goes both ways.
		If that is the case, then why are we being inundated with UFO sightings and close encounters, interactions with beings, communications, all of that, of everything except physical evidence, in other words?
		So you would imagine if there was a scenario like the gentleman suggested, then why would we even observe these craft?
		I mean, there is a display aspect to the UFO phenomenon.
		There always has been.
		Clearly.
		You know, these things are floating down interstate highways at 300 feet in altitude where they're being witnessed by hundreds of people.
		So even that fact alone is a form of communication, even though it does not, you know, doesn't entail physical evidence that we can hang our hat on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		We'll call him Color.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		Hi.
		Colin, are you familiar yet with the case in Montana a little over a year ago, the Tally Farrell case, the Red Angus cowhead that you worked on for a number of months?
		Yes.
		Do you know what your final conclusion was on that?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Final conclusion on that was there was a compound called oxendole that was found at higher levels in the eye fluid of that animal than a sham mutilated animal.
		And by sham mutilated animal, I mean an animal that was retrieved from the slaughterhouse, left on the ground in a protected way away from scavengers and predators for two or three days, just like the teleferro animal was left.
		And then that eye fluid was put through exactly the same chemical analysis.
		when we did that experiment we found in the mutilated animal up in montana that um oxendol seemed to be present in the uh in the eye fluid of that animal now oxendol yeah Oxendole is a, at high levels, is a sedative.
		It will cause animals or humans to lose consciousness.
		So one possibility of finding oxendol in that animal was that the oxendol was used as a sedative.
		Now, I should also mention that at very low levels, oxendol is present in these animals, but not at the levels that we found it at.
unidentified		Have you ever communicated with Paul Evangel?
unidentified		Dr. Paul Evingood?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		You mean Lefty Levingood?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Paul Evingood.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I assume we're talking about the same.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
		Dr. Levengood.
		And how do you regard his research, specifically with his ability to delineate between crop circles that have been hoaxed and those that he regards as genuine?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I think what Dr. Leavengood has done is extremely interesting.
		I don't think it's an open and shut case that microwaves are used in these plants.
		I think there may be other forms of energy that are used that have not been examined.
		But I think Dr. Levengood has done some really interesting work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but with regard to what appears to be microwave radiation or whatever the effect is, is it a good measure, do you believe, Colm, in delineating between the man-made bologna and the real McCoy?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		In order to really answer that question properly, what I would love to do, and it has never been done to my knowledge, is to take the same plants that Dr. Levengood has looked at and look at them from a completely different angle, in other words, a cellular angle, in order to see if what Dr. Levengood has found is corroborated.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		And we have never done that because most of the focus that NIDS has focused on has been on the UFO topic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got you.
		Although there is a relationship, as you well know.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Columb Kelleher.
unidentified		Hello.
		Column, over 40 years ago, I was an OSI agent.
		So I have some first-hand information about OSI.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Let me talk to the issue of black triangles.
		Yes.
		All U.S. UFOs are triangular in shape.
		All other UFOs are circular or have other shapes.
		It has to do with the center of gravity, but the black triangles are all U.S. The technology is we've been given no technology.
		This is something that we developed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, since you know a very great deal about them, obviously, right?
unidentified		Well, I think so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so what technology allows them to silently propel themselves at 30 miles an hour, seemingly not aerodynamically traveling at all?
unidentified		Well, that's energy that comes from under our feet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Energy that comes from under our feet?
unidentified		Right.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean?
unidentified		Well, those are emissions from the core of the Earth or from all live planets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That allow them to travel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So are you talking about some sort of gravitational propulsion system?
unidentified		Well, it would be magnetic and gravity and other forces.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well, have you worked on these programs?
unidentified		I'm just familiar with them.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Is there any way that we could email?
		You could email me?
unidentified		Sure.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		The email address for NIDS is NIDS, N-I-D-S, at A-N-V, AlbertNormanVictor.net.
		Okay.
		I'd really appreciate an email from you.
unidentified		Actually, there are two locations that are involved, and they're close together.
unidentified		The Black Triangles are about seven miles north of the location that other entities, craft, would leave the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, if you would please follow up with email.
		We're not heavy on time here.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Columb Coveher.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		It's off.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yes, hi.
		I was just wondering if you had ever considered anything with the Admiral Byrd.
		Are you familiar with Admiral Byrd?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Admiral Byrd?
unidentified		Yes.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		From what perspective?
unidentified		With the perspective of the hollow Earth, the hollow moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, why not?
		We'll do a little bit of this column.
		There have been many reports of UFOs coming up out of the ocean, some of them literally coming out of the Earth, that sort of thing.
		I don't know about hollow Earth, but there have been reports of activity that would appear to be within the Earth.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we've had several reports of allegedly these objects flying right down into, say, a mountain or something and not crashing.
		Or we've also had reports of objects coming out of the sea, the seawater, or going into.
		We've had several objects actually that were detected underwater by submarine sonar moving in excess of 50 knots, which, you know, and this was mostly in the China Sea back in the 1950s where these objects, you know, this kind of technology was not available.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I'm aware of this.
		They would seem to move through the earth when they do and through the sea, just as we would move almost through the air, you know, in some sort of airplane.
		It just doesn't seem to matter to them.
		The density of the ocean or of the land versus the air is as if it didn't exist, you know, the difference.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and that was one of the reports I'm thinking of, specifically in the China Sea, was monitoring that with sonar because apparently propellers make cavitation patterns in the water.
		And these were not detected from these objects that were moving at greater than 50 knots.
		So whatever propulsion was being used was not the standard propeller propulsion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you written a book or done anything that you would like to promote here at the end of the program?
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Not at this time, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no book.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		The website, which I think we're having trouble with right now, is nidsci.org.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		But the NIS email address, I would definitely encourage people, like the gentleman who we just talked with, NIDS at ANV.net.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		And I apologize for probably taking your website down.
		Anything that gets posted up there is visited by many hundreds of thousands of people at one time.
		And the result is usually inevitable.
		It'll go down for a period of time, but it will live again.
		So keep checking the website, folks.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Well that that's actually a very good thing if uh if uh if there's that many people uh out there, I think that's great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of notches in our website belt, believe me.
		Uh I want to thank you, Colum, for being here.
		Say hi to Robert, please, for me.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I will indeed.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		I know that he, I think next time you're in Las Vegas, you should look him up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know he's he's looking for me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Colum, thank you.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much, Art.
unidentified		Have a good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll do it again.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, my friend.
colm kelleher ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll be back tomorrow night.
		But there you've got it.
		The straight stuff.
		Column Conniher.
		From the high deserts.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Watching backbone to your birth.
		I knew that word and watching birds.
		Now it begins day of day.

▲