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April 11, 2004 - Art Bell

02:51:20

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - James Gardner - Cosmology and Evolution

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01:00:46

james gardner

59:09

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, desert and the great Americans.
		I meet you all.
		Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world's time zones.
		Covering them all is this program, Coast Coast Bam Weekend Edition.
		I'm Art Bell.
		It's great to be here.
		truly an honor always to be with you.
		Tonight in the second hour, James Gardner is going to be here, and this will be...
		That's what we do here.
		Food for thought.
		And he is going to make the case that our universe was deliberately designed by a super intelligent being will go through that range.
		Or beings, plural, in a prior cosmic cycle to life to be life-friendly.
		So, in other words, that we were designed.
		And that's such an interesting concept and one that I know we all wonder about how we got here, who designed us, whether it was a matter of evolution, making everything seem perfect, or in fact, everything seems perfect because it was designed to be so.
		That should be quite a discussion.
		That'll be in the second hour.
		In the first hour, we will have open lines.
		Anything you want to talk about?
		Fair game.
		First, a little news.
		A Flujah, a fragile ceasefire held between Sunni insurgents and U.S. Marines on Sunday in the besieged city of Fluja, where Iraqis said more than 600 civilians were killed in the past week alone.
		Near Baghdad, gunmen shot down a U.S. attack helicopter, killed the two crew members aboard.
		Also, the military suggested it is open to a negotiated solution in its showdown with a radical Shiite cleric in the South.
		Interesting.
		We, of course, were not at all interested in negotiating with Saddam Hussein, but we are with the cleric.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then the second item in this hour's news, President Bush insisted Sunday he was satisfied that federal agents were on top of the terrorist threat after reading a September 11 briefing detailing Osama bin Laden's intentions on U.S. soil.
		For two years, National Security Advisor Connelisa Rice left Americans with the impression that the memo from August 6, 2001 focused on historical information dating to 1998 and that any current threats mostly involved overseas targets, yet the release under public pressure of the briefing showed that Bush had received intelligence reporting as recent as May of 2001 that most of the current information focused on possible plots inside the United States.
		Nevertheless, all of this swirling around the president, I don't for one second, as much as I might be willing to believe some pretty far-out things from time to time, I don't for one second think that our president knew there was going to be an attack, and that is certainly what's, I don't know, suggested by the inquiry itself, I guess, and I don't for one second believe that.
		Gas prices climbed another 2.5 cents in the past two weeks as high crude oil prices and tight capacity contributed to record prices at the pump.
		According to a national survey, the nationwide average for the past two weeks it ended Friday was $182 for all grades.
		A buck 82.
		That was 8,000 stations surveyed across the U.S. So price gas is going up.
		And you know what?
		I don't think it's going to come back down.
		Factional violence spread across Afghanistan on Sunday.
		We've done battles in the north between militias of two powerful warlords, leaving up three fighters dead.
		Rival group said Sunday forces loyal to Abdul Rashid Dostum and his rival, Hadaha Mohammed, battled overnight, an area about 100 miles northwest of the capital, Kabul.
		Or Kabul.
		And interestingly, you know, the fact that it is Easter apparently has caused the Passion of the Christ to return to the number one position, something movies don't very often do after falling off, 17.1 million.
unidentified		Incredible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, in a moment, I want to read you an email that I received, which curled the hair on the back of my neck, surely.
		And then we're going to go to open line.
		So if you know what the numbers are, now is a very good time to dial.
		I'm going to try and get into them just as quickly as I can this night.
unidentified		Don't move.
unidentified		Don't move.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm going to read you an email that curled my hair.
		It's from somebody named Bob in Silverdale, Washington.
		And Bob writes, Hi, Art.
		You know, I'd just like to let you know that I flew over the Arctic from Europe to Seattle.
		As most of you know, the airlines now offer quite a bit of savings by flying over the North Pole.
		And he says he did it on Northwest Airlines on April 8th.
		He said, I was surprised to see that they showed two complete movies and encouraged the passengers to keep the window covers down.
		Curious as I am, though, I looked outside.
		The entire Arctic ice field is broken up, like many giant icebreakers went through it or something.
		Although we were at about 34,000 feet cruising altitude, The cuts in the ice showed light blue-green waters.
		Also, Greenland itself, anyway, what I remember of it, was always one block of ice and snow, but now distinct valleys and mountaintops were evident.
		So I spoke with the stewardess on board, and I asked her a few questions.
		You know, it was as if she was under orders not to talk about this.
		She was very concerned, very agitated.
		She indicated, well, she made some pantomime-like facial gestures indicating all this, and that the crew also was aware of the changes.
		She indicated to me that it's just a matter of time before the, you know, what hits the fan.
		She was very concerned and confirmed the reason for the back-to-back movies.
		That's freaky.
		Now, if any of the rest of you should happen a chance to take flights over the North Pole headed for Europe to and from, whatever, and I'm sure a lot of you will do that, then how about you too take the opportunity to at least take a few moments out from the invitation to keep those window shades down and glance down even from altitude and take a look at what you see and what the Arctic looks like.
		That's about the only opportunity the average citizen would have really to look down on the Arctic, isn't it?
		I mean, we're not given that opportunity except for the polar flights.
		So I would suggest to my audience that you two look down and then render some reports to us.
		I would like that.
		The Federal Aviation Administration announced it gave a one-year license to get this Scaled Composites of Mojave, California, a company founded by aviation maverick Bert Ruttan.
		His goal is public space travel within 10 years.
		So he is the first person to get a license to go to space, the first private rocket.
		Bert Ruttan, that's going to be fascinating to follow.
		Maybe we will get to space.
		Who knows?
		And this is totally fascinating.
		It's a Reuters story.
		And I'm sure you may have heard it on CNN and other outlets last week, but I love this.
		What may have been one of the earliest pet cats has been found in a richly furnished tomb in Cyprus, French, in Cyprus, France, rather.
		The eight-month-old kitten appears to have been deliberately buried alongside a human in a Stone Age grave 9,500 years ago.
		This is reported in the journal Science, the prestigious journal Science.
		While the finding may not surprise present-day cat lovers, the researchers at the National Museum of Natural History in Paris A. It represents the earliest example of what was very likely a domesticated cat.
		It is generally accepted.
		The cats were first domesticated in ancient Egypt at the latest, by the 20th to 19th century BC, 3,000 to 4,000 years ago.
		But this one, this one, this cat, not exactly like our present-day cats, was buried specifically and on purpose, indicating it was a pet, 9,000 years ago.
		So one has to begin to wonder, 9,000 years?
		9,000 years.
		Now, what does that mean?
		Well, Christ is, what, a couple thousand plus years, right?
		We're talking about 9,000 years here.
		That's a very long time.
		So how long indeed have cats been around?
		And when you look at the face on Mars and you see the feline aspects to one side of it, you've just got to wonder about these cats.
		They're strange creatures, I'll tell you that.
		All right, as promised, let's try and get to the phone early.
		First time caller line, you are on the air.
		Good evening.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Good evening and good morning, Art.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		How are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just spiffy.
unidentified		Good.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Glad to hear it.
unidentified		It's about time for your quadrennial or whatever the word is, prediction on the presidential election.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all it'll be.
		I don't have insight.
		I'm not a psychic nor a remote viewer or anything else.
		I think President Bush will win re-election.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Fair enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's my prediction.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Sounds good to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doesn't mean a damn thing.
		It's just my best guess.
		Anything else?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
unidentified		Just enjoy your show, and thanks for the good work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you very much.
		We'll see what happens.
		Yeah, I think he'll get re-elected.
		And I don't think for one second, despite the inquiry, that the American people feel he had any pre-knowledge.
		You know, he said earlier today in a quote I saw on CNN, if he'd known that, he'd have moved mountains to stop it, and I believe that.
		People are so quick to jump at the possibility of, I mean, history is replete with examples, and I better not give them or we'll get into fights about that.
		Wild Card line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, hi.
		This is a real coincidence because this was on the History Channel tonight about 911.
		The Bible Codes told about it, and it's in the Bible Code book that they were given information 30 days before 911 by Mr. Rips himself.
		And he took it to Conalisa Rice, and G.W. was at Crawford, and he had a letter there for him to call him immediately.
		He didn't hear from him for a week, so he called back, and she said she gave to somebody higher in the White House, Mr. Card.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I'm not even sure about the Bible code.
unidentified		Well, tonight, they played some stuff, and they even told about the asteroid coming in.
		Yeah, I think he's going to be re-elected in 2005.
		It says he'll have a chance for peace with Arafat and Sharon, and he will be present to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right, thank you very much.
		Look, why say it again, I guess?
		I just don't believe for one second Bible Code Assange for a second.
		I'm not even sure about the Bible code.
		Maybe there's something to it.
		Maybe there is not.
		I have yet to be convinced one way or the other.
		It is intriguing, certainly.
		But if somebody went to, I don't know, Connolly Reiser, the president, or something, and they said, look, this is in the Bible code, I'm not sure that would immediately or should immediately engender any sort of U.S. action at all.
		And I don't think they knew for one second that there were going to be a bunch of suicidal terrorists who would take airplanes en masse and drive them into buildings in this country.
		I don't think they knew that, or they surely would have done something.
		And I do believe that.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Eric.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Bruce in Toronto.
		Heard you talking last night about Iraq and North Korea.
		Yes.
		About those two subjects.
		First of all, North Korea.
		One thing one should keep in mind is that those guys don't make a move without the okay of the Chinese.
		And, you know, the Chinese might let them bluster and make a lot of noise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope you're right, but I fear that in a single instance you could be wrong, that they're crazy enough to do something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really does read that way, brother, if you read the news dispatches from Korea.
unidentified		Well, we've heard some ominous-sounding news dispatches previously, and nothing happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		And, you know, the Chinese, I mean, they do a lot of trade with the U.S., and they've got a lot to lose if things were to get out of hand there.
		So I wouldn't think that anything's going to happen.
		As far as Iraq goes, your President W does not seem to incline to pay much attention to the expression, let sleeping dogs lie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like him or not, he's our president, not just mine.
unidentified		Well, when I say your, I mean, as in the United States.
unidentified		I'm calling from Canada, so he's not my president.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, then quite correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry about that.
unidentified		I forgot you.
unidentified		Not yet, anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Incidentally, while we're on this subject, I heard earlier today that France has offered to send troops to Iraq, provided that they can have an equal say in the future of Iraq.
		And you know what?
		I think they can kiss our red, white, and blue butts.
		That's my reaction to that.
unidentified		Well, personally, I think everybody who's there right now should just get their asses
unidentified		You had Saddam Hussein effectively caged and defanged with a no-fly zone in the north and a no-fly zone in the south, and you basically gone in and upset your own apple cart, and you're up to your next in a substance that's a lot nastier than applesauce.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know, I know.
		I know, I know.
		You don't need to preach to me.
		I know.
		I wasn't in favor of going in there in the first place.
		But the fact of the matter is we're there now.
		And although it sounds an awful lot like psychology proffered in Vietnam, the fact of the matter is that we can't turn tail and run, nor am I suggesting we ought to now.
		What we need to do is find a way to kill those who would have us dead.
		I mean, we just need to mop up with them.
		And if not, we're going to face another domestic horror of some sort.
		We may anyway.
		But we are at war.
		Make no mistake.
		We're at war, and we are there now, so there is very little choice.
		No, I don't think we ought to turntail and run.
		Thank you very much.
		West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		I had my socks knocked off the other day.
		I received a link for Alex Jones, PrisonPlanet.com, his interview with Colonel Don DeGrand Priest, U.S. Army retired colonel, with his symposium that he had on September 16th to the 19th, 2001, with the civilian, military, and general aviation pilots, a 72-hour nonstop symposium.
		And he submitted his report, and it will totally knock your socks off.
		The link is after Prison Plant.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
unidentified		I can't give it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, you can't give it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't allow people to give links on the air for really good reasons.
unidentified		Okay, well, okay, forget that then.
unidentified		Colonel G. Grand Prix, I'm going to give you a question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just give me, just slow down.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did he say that knocked off your socks?
unidentified		said that the planes basically because they were all trying to pilots were trying to figure out how could those planes do what they did and he Yes, fly into buildings.
		Okay.
		So what happened was that they were remote controlled, but the planes that we think went into the buildings were actually drone planes.
		Oh, that's a pretty break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Come on.
		We talked to stewardesses.
		We talked to passengers on the plane on cell phones as they were headed for the buildings.
		What do you mean?
unidentified		No, no, no, no.
unidentified		You've got to read this interview.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
		All right.
		I'll put that high on my list.
		Thank you.
		Sorry.
		The evidence of what hit those buildings is irrefutable.
		I mean, that's kind of like we never went to the moon theory, isn't it?
		They weren't really airplanes.
		They were drones.
		There weren't really people in there.
		They were drones.
		Hogwash.
		Absolute hogwash.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, hello.
		Hi.
		My name is Thomas from Roanoke, Virginia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Thomas, you're going to have to yell at me a little.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not too loud.
unidentified		My name is Thomas from Roanoke, Virginia.
unidentified		We'll listen to you on WFRR down here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		To change the subject, you were doing some remote viewing thing here the other night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean I was interviewing a remote viewer?
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		Here a while back, a few years ago, they had a fortune hunter who was known as the greatest fortune hunter in the world.
		He brought up several sunken ships in this area.
		There's a rumor about Beals Gold, who was about a man who went down into Mexico and captured a lot of gold, and he brought it back up in here to a place called Bedford, Virginia, or near Bedford, Virginia, and buried it.
		And once in a while, I get these little, I don't know if you call them inclinations or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You think you know where the gold is?
unidentified		Well, no, I don't.
		But what happened Was that I was driving down the road with a friend of mine, and we were talking about something that didn't even remotely connect to this deals gold stuff.
		And I just got a feeling.
		I said, wait a minute, this guy that's looking for the gold is in the wrong place.
		He's going to find something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to say too much here, aren't you?
unidentified		No, I don't want to get it away.
		I said he's going to find something, and it's going to pertain to the gold, but he's not going to find the gold.
		The thing is, he knows where the gold is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe the final clue.
unidentified		Exactly.
		He knew where the gold was.
		So three weeks later, the man rented some heavy-duty equipment and stuff, and he dug up a hole.
		What he did find was two of the wagons that supposedly brought the gold up.
		But the thing is, he does know, or did know he's dead now.
		But he did know where the gold was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do you know where it is?
unidentified		No, I don't.
		He was planning on coming back.
		The reason why I called is that some of his family still have his notes and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And if any of the viewers would know how to contact them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We only have listeners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're radio, not contacted.
unidentified		Right, any of the listeners would know how to contact them.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well then send me some email if that's the case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or is it just fool's gold, huh?
unidentified		I see bad moon horizon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remember those Arctic flights, folks?
unidentified		I see trouble on the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just take a break from the movies.
unidentified		I see fair moon horizon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Crack those windows open and take a look.
unidentified		I see bad country.
		Don't forget, but you found a big old man.
		There's bad moon on the right.
		I feel hurricane before me.
		I know the end.
		What's that sound?
		Nothing for a car to know.
		Oh, my God.
		Ten after midnight under starlight's satellite skies.
		A live wig digging in the cover of dark cake scarf.
		Should I hear that right?
		Like conversations Beaming out to the corner And the dark Real life and all of your expressions.
		In the world, friends are falling apart Coast to coast To the average joy Maybe hard to take No, well, I'm the sun closed Yeah, the truth is out there Ask up and we're Area 51
		Yeah, they're lazy and we're More enticed to wars and lies Right out of control Conspiracy heroes just to face.
		Don't you worry, the days will end.
		Long height when he's fed just right, making foes of the public friends.
		Dear ass, what do you believe?
		A poor man in the sky.
		Croak and digger, media swagger, the writing on the wall, is it wrong, is it right?
		Coast to coast, to the average, you're maybe hard to tell you.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call ARC at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty good stuff, actually.
		John Hogan is this man's name, and this song is all about this program.
		Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		If you listen carefully, very carefully, you get it.
		I heard it all.
		You took the fall.
		There's a strange smell in the air.
		It's the devil you do, or the devil you don't.
		It's a place you must be the way.
		Go coast, go coast, do the average show.
		Baby, I'll take to the hills.
		I'll look not close.
		When the truth is out there, I'll start with the day of 50-year-old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Area 51.
unidentified		Ah, not bad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		dot hold on from canada and all about coast to coast a m but for My wife is in here dragging Yeti out of the room.
		We call this cat extraction.
		Bye.
		When the door is open, this little guy, who is, by the way, in my webcam photograph right now, if you want to go and take a look, it's yet another Yeti photograph.
		Just give him one instant.
		He will sit out there during this show.
		He wants to be in here so much that I'll hear this.
		See if I can.
		That's what he'll sit out there doing.
		Come on, let me in, let me in, let me in.
		Of course, he will sneak in the moment we have a break and he has an opportunity.
		And then right in the middle of an interview or some other dramatic moment when I don't even know he's in the room, he will jump up on my lap.
		And let me tell you, that'll get the adrenaline going.
		Walk around, you're on here, hi.
unidentified		Hi, aren't you?
unidentified		Hey, are you lucky to have someone to jump on your lap?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good point.
unidentified		Okay.
		I'm from Canada.
		Oh, I just heard that guy.
		I am so really tired of people putting down President Bush.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I am too, especially with this sort of hint that, well, he knew all this was going to happen.
unidentified		No, you know, any American that says that, I mean, they shouldn't even be called an American.
		I have talked with Americans.
		I have talked with Muslim people.
		Many of them are so glad that the United States went in there.
		It was so cruel.
		I mean, we already went through this.
		And listen, I can't believe how much brainwashed, I both say brainwashed, that some of these people get.
		And like my dad, who's a World War II veteran, he said that America, President Bush is the America's best president that they've had in a long time.
		And I think that also, too, for pulling those troops out, what about those men that went in there and died already?
		I mean, isn't there any respect for what they believed and fought for?
		I think that people ought to think and really take a good look and not under the whim of their hat and the synopsis that they're coming out with, oh, maybe we should pull out or this or all this.
		I can't even, I wouldn't have enough time to name all of them.
		But I think the American people should stop and think and really take a good look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree with that.
		Thank you.
		And again, and yet again, as far as the president is concerned, and I would attribute this to probably all of the presidents we've had, there is no American president, even Roosevelt, so don't say it, who would intentionally allow Americans to be killed in Moss.
		I don't believe that.
		I don't believe it at all.
		And somebody writes me in, you know, the usual stuff.
		Oh, come on, we all know the politicians are a bunch of crooks.
		Well, I don't know about that.
		I'm sure that, you know, they're politicians, but they're also Americans.
		Do you really think that our president would be all that different than you or me or the guy behind the tree?
		I don't think so.
		We're all Americans, and if we knew an attack was about to occur to the country, we would not just let it happen, and we wouldn't ignore specific information that it was going to happen.
		And I just don't buy that baloney.
		Not for a second.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		It's Kathy from Woodbridge, New Jersey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kathy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing?
unidentified		I'm okay, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
unidentified		Art, I'll tell you something.
unidentified		99.90% of the time, and since I've been listening to you, and Lynn Samuels can testify to this, she lets you off on a lot of stuff because she's so totally in love with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lynn?
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		Lynn Samuels has got her show on Saturdays.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I wasn't aware of her family.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
		She adores you because sometimes I will write her and I'll go, did you hear what he said?
		And you get me pissed off.
		But I still love you.
		But I'm probably going to get you a little aggravated.
		There was a president that did lie to us.
		Oh, no, it was Mr. LBJ in the Gulf of Tonkin.
		Well, don't you say that.
		I know how you are, Beth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'll set me off.
unidentified		But he is a bastard.
		He was a bachelor, okay?
		Well, look, hey, I have no, but even if...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Kathy.
		But even LBJ, and I believe that by his macromanaging the Vietnamese conflict and actual missions to North Vietnam by our pilots, got a lot of people killed.
		Even that president, I wouldn't accuse of intentionally allowing a mass attack on the United States with foreknowledge.
		No, no, ma'am.
		I wouldn't say that.
unidentified		But we still have a right to question all, and there are like a little 500 questions around, why did you sit there so long?
unidentified		Why did you say this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what America's about, that we can criticize.
unidentified		Not to be called anti-patriot, not to be taken off the radio.
		That is wrong.
		We don't have to lose every civil right that we have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Kelly.
		I agree with that.
		We don't want to lose any of them.
		I mean, to lose that while we're, you know, fighting.
		No, no, no, no, no.
		We don't want to win some battle and lose the war.
		And the war would be the Constitution.
		If we lost that, we're give it up.
unidentified		Right.
		No, sir.
		All right.
		That's about it.
		My main coon cat says hello to your main coon cat, and they are crazy cats, are they not?
		I'm telling you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See you later, Kathy.
		All right.
		It's a main coon cat.
		This cat has been well identified by many of you out there.
		As I said, there's a picture of him on the webcam.
		He is something else.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, Art.
		Yes.
		Richard, out here in Las Vegas?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		I am a photographer, and I took that trip over the pole with British Airways back in 1991.
		And it would be kind of interesting to take the trip again.
		Yeah, that, too.
		To compare if anybody did take pictures with the pictures that I have.
		And I also have a friend who went, took the cruise ship line ride all the way up Alaska to that whole ridge of ice, and he's going to take it again.
		I'm going to see if I could wrangle him out, wrangle some photographs out from him to send to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can see plenty of receding in Alaska, believe me, but the real trip, I mean, I know a lot of my listeners do take from the West Coast, the Over the Poles trip to Europe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so I really am urging everybody to keep your camera with you, keep your eyes open, at least take a few moments out from the movies, and let's see what we can come up with.
unidentified		High Speed Ektachrome ASA 800.
unidentified		You can shoot without light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
unidentified		And I will send you some shots that I have from the archives, and you can see if you want to use them or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'll use them for comparison, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		You're welcome to have a good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You too.
		That's a really good idea.
		High-speed 800, he said.
		And you're still allowed to open your window for now and take photographs.
		It's just that the average American, the average person in the world doesn't get an opportunity to go over the pole except for these new interesting routes the airlines take in order to conserve on fuel and everything.
		International line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, Art.
		Yes.
		It's Derek in Nanaimo, British Columbia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Out of Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Looking out across the Georgia Street.
unidentified		First of all, I did serve in our Canadian Armed Forces and served proudly with American forces many years ago as a ground radar tech far north.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I can't understand why people would question the honor of your presidence.
		I support you people to the nth degree.
		I'm proud to have served with your men many years ago.
		I'm hitting 64 now.
		But I wanted to comment on that.
		But I have a very humorous story to tell you about our origins.
		My wife always said there's no way we came from the monkeys or an ape.
		And after listening to your show for many, many years, you know, the conversations would come up time and again about the Martians and the disaster on their planet.
		So I told my wife Carol, I said, dear, you have nothing to worry about.
		I think we were Martians.
		We came from the Martians.
		They had to get out of there pretty quick.
		And the closest planet to them was Earth, and perhaps that's where we came from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe we did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, from Mars, we must be a big blue inviting ball.
unidentified		I think so, especially with the situation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's going to be kind of fun tonight.
		As you know, my guest is going to be talking about the fact that he has concluded that we were designed, that everything for us was designed by a super intelligent being or beings.
		Now, this is going to be fun.
unidentified		Yes, I'm looking forward to it, by the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so am I. All right, take care.
		Thank you, sir.
		It should be quite interesting.
		And there's two really main tactics you can take.
		One, that we were intelligently designed, and every little detail designed for our comfort and pleasure here on Earth, or it seems that way, or that we did come from the mud puddle, wiggled our way out, began to breathe, and came forth.
		And that everything around us is simply, it appears to be perfect, it looks to be perfect, put here for our very existence.
		But another argument certainly would be that evolution itself, the process of evolution, ensured that everything was perfect.
		And would it not have evolved in this manner?
		We wouldn't be here.
		Did I say what I wanted to say?
		Not really.
		It's really hard to put into words.
		I guess that the process of evolution would make it appear as though everything were perfectly placed, because it could be no other way.
		Otherwise, yes, we would not be here.
		First time, caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yes, sir.
		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Hello?
		This is Ben from Super Talk, Mississippi.
		Great to talk to you, Arc.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And to you.
unidentified		What's up?
		I had a comment about your show a while back on the parties over and our oil consumption and so forth and war in Iraq.
		First of all, I just want to say I consider what I had to say an opinion, and I value everyone else's opinion a lot as well.
		But I agree with the gentleman.
		I think we are facing a crisis as far as oil goes.
		But as far as the war in Iraq is concerned, I think we should give President Bush every benefit of the doubt that he's doing the right thing for our country and fighting terrorism.
		Now, my reasoning behind that, being a student of economics, is that when OPEC sets quotas for each country as to how much oil they can export, they all cheat.
		And they all say this country can export so many billion barrels of oil, and this country can export so many barrels of oil.
		But when they all adjourn from their meeting and they all go home, they like U.S. dollars.
		In this day and age, I guess you could say they like Euros, but they all cheat and they cheat very badly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and your overall point being?
unidentified		And if any way, shape, or form, us being over there would somehow improve their oil production.
		I think it would do nothing of the sort.
		It would just reverse it, if anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		Thank you very much.
		I appreciate it.
		I don't know.
		They do cheat, of course.
		They say we will hold production to the following figures, and then they always overproduce, looking for, as he said, the dollars or the euros or whatever.
		If what was said last weekend about oil and the party being over is accurate, then you can pretty much imagine that prices are going to go up and they're going to keep going up, and it's going to eventually precipitate in a crisis that is going to result in what?
		Well, the answer to that question will depend on what we do between right now and when that moment arrives.
		We had better start looking into alternative fuels, and we better do it quick.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		Yeah, hi, Ark.
		Pleasure talking to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good to have you.
unidentified		This is Douglas from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, WMT 600.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Anyway, about that new speed record, the plane, I was always under the understanding that the Blackbird SR-71, there was two different engines made for that plane.
unidentified		And the high-altitude one, when they used that one, it would fly so high and so fast that even if you rocked on to that plane with over-the-horizon radar and then spun it around 180 degrees, you couldn't shoot it out of the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the new record is apparently in the area of about 5,000 miles an hour.
unidentified		Well, I heard that the high-altitude engines, they would run that plane at 6,000 miles an hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can neither confirm nor deny that.
		I have no idea what the blackbird was able to do.
		It's probably still to some degree classified what the top end is.
		I don't know, but I think the 5,000 mile per hour mark eclipsed what the Blackbird is capable of.
		But then again, that's just an opinion.
		I really don't know.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air, hi.
unidentified		Hi, Dave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On a cell phone, right, Dave?
unidentified		Yes, I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's up?
unidentified		Well, I just had a comment about the Iraq deal.
		Yes, sir?
		I don't believe that George Bush would knowingly let those planes get the Twin Powers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		But I think the question is whether they took the threat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've read it.
		I've seen it myself.
		And it would come along with a lot of other intelligence.
		I mean, that he had designs on doing damage inside the U.S. Not a big surprise.
		But how do you jump from that conclusion?
		Hindsight is 2020.
		But back then, how do you jump from that to he's going to drive airplanes into the buildings in the Pentagon and stuff?
		You can't.
unidentified		Well, yeah, of course you can't.
		But I mean, if they had the threat there and they just didn't see it as a major threat, you know, I think they could have taken the threat a little bit more seriously, maybe prevented it.
		But the other comment I had about people saying that people questioning the president are not patriots, I don't think, understand what patriotism is.
		It's basically you're patriot to the Constitution and our country, not to our government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		That's the whole point.
		You can be a critic of the United States government, of the president, of what we do.
		All of that is perfectly patriotic.
		However, that doesn't stop some of it from being labeled as ridiculous.
		Ridiculous.
		Nevertheless, allowed under the Constitution, but ridiculous.
		And I have seen nothing, nothing whatsoever that would indicate to me that there was any specific pre-knowledge about what was going to occur.
		There had been no precedent for anything like that in the past.
		Yes, we had hijackings and people would take planes to Cuba and that sort of thing, right?
		But never even a hint beforehand of the concept of people en masse giving up their lives and driving airplanes into buildings.
		Not even a clue.
		And so, in my opinion, people shouting that from the rooftops, though constitutionally certainly protected in doing so, will sound a little wacky to me.
		But, you know, this is America.
unidentified		They're protected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They can say stuff like that if they want to.
unidentified		As far as just dumb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we're going to take a break, and then when we get back, we're going to talk with a man who believes that all of this, all of us, everything you see, feel, touch, sense, all that is, was designed, perhaps, by others, beings from elsewhere.
		It'd be interesting to listen to that argument, see if we all get convinced.
		from the high desert in the middle of the night on mark bell this coast coast a_m_ the Thank you.
unidentified		Oh, man, he's in the storm.
		What do Mel Gibson and the coral...
		Hey ya hey ya oh...
		Hey ya oh...
		Thank you.
		To talk with Art Bell.
		Form a wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's putting some sticks together, isn't it?
		All right.
		This is going to be fun.
		I really suspect this is going to be fun.
		How do you think we got here?
		James Gardner is an accomplished science essayist and complexity theorist whose articles on cosmology and evolution have been published in prestigious scientific journals.
		Gardner's a former U.S. Supreme Court law clerk, a former Oregon state senator, author of Biocosm, a new scientific theory of evolution, intelligent life, is the architect of the universe.
		Biocosm is stirring up a lot of controversy, you might imagine.
		Gardner claims that our universe was deliberately designed by a super intelligent being or beings in a prior cosmic cycle to be life-friendly.
		So, the big question, and it is the big one, is how did we get here and who put us here?
		In a moment, James Gardner.
unidentified		In a moment, James Gardner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		James Gardner's book is Biocosm, the New Scientific Theory of Evolution.
		Intelligent Life is the Architect of the Universe.
		And he's been on Coast, I think, twice now.
		This would be the first time around with me, though.
		Welcome to the program, James.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great to have you.
		So I guess the title says it all.
		Intelligent Life is the Architect of the Universe.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I tried to sum it up there.
		And that is, from the scientific perspective, that's a pretty radical idea because most mainstream scientists view life and intelligent life as essentially accidents, accidental outcomes, one lucky roll of the dice.
		And I think they're essentially looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
		I think that life and intelligence are the primary cosmic phenomena, and everything else is a secondary result of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Though, James, why, for example, let's assume for a second that evolution and occurred exactly as the scientists theorize it occurred.
		From our present day stance, wherever you and I sit, wouldn't everything look as though it were planned?
		In other words, from our perspectives, it would look as though, God, you know, this place, the trees, the ocean, the air, just the right combination for us to breathe, aside from what we foul up, and the water, same thing.
		All of this seems just too perfect.
		And wouldn't it seem that way to us if through a long process of evolution, I mean, here we are alive and enjoying all this, so it would seem that way to us, no matter how we got here, wouldn't it?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That's a great question.
		And in fact, that was the situation that confronted Darwin.
		That was the famous argument from design that William Paley offered.
		And Darwin's great achievement was to say that that appearance could, in fact, be the outcome of naturalistic forces.
		And what I'm trying to do is to extend that one step further and say that there are naturalistic scenarios which could create that same phenomenon, that same perfect fit, if you will, but at a cosmic scale.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, everybody's going to scream for evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if you think that we were designed and or that our environment was designed, what evidence might there be to support that?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the, and that's another great question.
		If you look at the fundamental laws of nature and the dimensionless constants of physics, and I'll give you some, hopefully some examples that won't be too esoteric.
		Let's take the process by which carbon is manufactured in the hearts of giant stars, giant supernovas.
		And, you know, carbon was not there at the moment of the Big Bang.
		It had to be manufactured when giant stars exploded.
		Well, the process by which that carbon is made is exquisitely sensitive to the fine-tuning of certain energy levels in the precursor atoms to carbon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, see, you already lost yourself.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Sorry about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just back up and try it.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Carbon is essential to life as we know it.
		We're all carbon creatures.
		Gotcha.
		And so you have to have copious quantities of carbon in the universe to create life as we know it, and probably to create any kind of life that can essentially get started.
		But you have to, for that to happen, you have to have some carefully designed speed bumps in the process by which carbon is created in giant stars.
		And the British astronomer Fred Hoyle, long before these were discovered, predicted that those atomic speed bumps essentially existed.
		And lo and behold, they were discovered.
		That's one of the most famous examples of fine-tuning in the laws of nature in a way that renders the universe life-friendly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your theory about how those speed bumps got to be there?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that what, let me back up just a moment and say what I think is going on is that the universe is essentially in the process of coming to life.
		That the ability of the cosmos to give birth to life and into intelligent life is encoded as a kind of secret message, if you will, a subtext to the laws of physics.
		And that intelligent life is bound on a course of further evolution to acquire capabilities that we could only think of as godlike in the distant future.
		And that its destiny is essentially to reproduce this universe and to create a successor universe, a baby universe, if you will, that itself will be endowed with the same kind of life-giving physical constants of nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Put another way we're on track to becoming gods ourselves.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That's a way of putting it.
		Yes.
		And I have a chapter in the conclusion of my book, which is called The Mind of Man and Then With an Arrow, The Mind of God.
		I know That's a heretical idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's get to the evidence, if there is any.
		I mean, all right, fine on carbon.
		Yep.
		What other evidence would there be?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		One of the most important and very recent pieces of evidence comes from a theory of physics that the author Brian Green has made famous called super string theory.
		And what the string theorists have discovered very, very recently is that there are literally zillions of different kinds of universes that are allowed by that fundamental theory, none of which appear to be mathematically favored, let alone mathematically inevitable.
		And what the theorists have been forced to say is, well, the only way we can explain that is to say that there are lots and lots of new universes being created all the time, only a tiny fraction of which have the qualities that are necessary to make them life-friendly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So life is rare.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Life is rarer than one can imagine.
		Now, what I add to that is to say, but wait a minute, isn't there some possibility that there is a process going on?
		Think of it as evolution really large, whereby those laws and constants of nature are in effect being shaped by life and intelligence in what would be our distant future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Who would you favor, from a theory point of view, as our creators?
		The God of the Bible?
		Aliens?
		As in life forms that have evolved long before we ever touched Earth?
		Or the simple process of evolution, the accident?
		I mean, who?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Second choice is closer to my way of thinking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Aliens.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but I don't like to use the phrase aliens because, in a sense, if this theory has any water, holds water, they're really not aliens.
		They are, in effect, our ancestors.
		And whatever progeny we are able to create in the form of birthing another cosmos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Intelligent life not of this planet, aliens?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's the diff?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		But the first chapter of my book is called Searching for E.T. in All the Wrong Places.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you mentioned SETI, I guess, right?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, yes.
		And one of the implications of the theory is that the arising of life should be a relatively robust phenomenon in our cosmos.
		It is a life-friendly cosmos, and it should yield life and eventually intelligence in a fairly routine way, which we will eventually be able to discover.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		SETI has been at work many years now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, I've interviewed those who do all that many times.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And Seth wrote the foreword to my book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, we have not yet connected, not so much as one verifiable signal from anybody, anywhere, anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you digest that information?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It's the famous Fermi paradox.
		Where are they?
		My answer to that is we've only searched a tiny fraction of the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that Seth would say, yes, we haven't searched that much, but actually they've made a fairly healthy run at it so far.
		It's nowhere near complete.
		I'm not suggesting that, but they've done a lot of looking with no results yet.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I think Seth would agree, and certainly I think there's a lot of looking to do.
		For one thing, we've only just begun to look at what is called optical SETI, which is the flashes of laser light that might be the preferred mode of communication.
		We've not looked in large segments of the electromagnetic spectrum, and we haven't explored more exotic possibilities.
		For instance, that neutrino transmissions might be the preferred transmission method, or even other means of communication.
		So I think we're just at the beginning of that search process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I agree.
		I am far, James, from a Bible thumper.
		I'm not even that religious formally.
		But we do have this great book, The Bible, and it sort of lays out how we happen to be.
		And so where do you put that in the mix of things?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's really interesting.
		And I'm like you, Art.
		I'm not really that religious a person.
		In fact, I wouldn't consider myself religious at all.
		But when you look at the sheer weight of the evidence of how life-friendly this cosmos really is, I'm just compelled by the implication, as was Einstein, that there's evidence of design and of the work of intellect of such superiority that we're just the palest reflections of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure you answered my question.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not a religious person, is the answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is the answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But still, scientifically, you have to deal with the fact of the Bible.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And not only that, are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So just do it straight on, I mean, do you think this was just cooked up and changed over the ages and it's just a bunch of stories?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I think it might be something more than that.
		I think it might reflect some deep sense of truth the origin of which we're Not really, with our earthly minds, able to fathom.
		But the one thing I can tell you for sure is, and this is discussed in the book, is that the Judeo-Christian tradition and its kind of its historical antecedents in Greek philosophy were absolutely essential to the birth of Western science.
		It's the reason Western science only emerged in Western Europe through the Enlightenment.
		And that's because what the long tradition of religion did was instill a faith in the rationality of nature, the ultimate order of nature.
		And that was the essential precondition for the beginning of modern science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that modern, or religion as we have it now, was given to us by those that you think may be our creators?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I don't know what to call them.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
		No, I don't think so.
		I think that it is a response, though.
		It is a response to the same sense of wonder and awe that strikes anyone who thinks deeply about the very fact that this universe exists and that it exists in such miraculous complexity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you can't have it both ways.
		I mean, the Bible tells us how we got here and how the world got here, and it's not really ambiguous, particularly.
		So either it happened that way or we were instructed by those that it we how am I going to put this?
		I don't know.
		It's like you're trying to have it both ways.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm not a biblical literalist.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Let me put it that way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Clearly, so you deal with the Bible just by sort of putting it aside and saying what?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, no, no.
		I think it had a hugely important impact on the birth of science itself.
		Right.
		It created the habit, the instinct of thought that made science possible.
		That's the great irony.
		I mean, people think of science and religion as being at war, and it's exactly the opposite.
		It was only because of the long imprint of theology, particularly during the Middle Ages, that was the only thing, that was what made science possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But still.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That doesn't mean it has to be literally true.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It means it conditions the mind in a way that sort of prepares it for the scientific method.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But still, even I mean, it is so specific with regard to our origins to be suggesting that we have other origins.
		I'm glad you give it credit for setting us on the road to science and all the rest of that, but you've got to either take it or not take it.
		And I guess your answer is you don't take it.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm not a biblical literalist.
		But again, I want to say and emphasize that there would be no science were there not for the Judeo-Christian tradition.
		It would not exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you believe that the various sightings that are worldwide and have been occurring since I've been alive pretty much and continue on a daily basis and perhaps some other things, crop circles, mutilations, all these things that go on that suggest there may be alien visitation, would it be your view that any of them, or even some small percentage, because it only takes that, would be real and represent those who perhaps are monitoring us now, those who created us?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		To be very honest, I'm a skeptic on that topic.
		Really?
		I haven't seen and I know there's a lot of evidence that's been looked at, continues to be looked at.
		I haven't seen evidence myself that convinces me.
		That being said, I think as with the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, the radio and optical search, it is terribly important to continue to be open-minded because nature has this strange and wonderful way of surprising us.
		For instance, there is a scientist in Canada right now by the name of Alan Tuck, who is a respected SETI researcher, who thinks that maybe the preferred way of communication by an extraterrestrial intelligence would be not by sending a signal that said,
		hello there, but by sending very sophisticated computer programs, essentially smart viruses, and that they might already be here on the internet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it's viruses that represent the aliens, let me assure you, James, they're here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		.exe, .bat, dot, well, whatever.
unidentified		We'll be back.
		You got me running, going out of my mind.
		You got me thinking that I'm wasting my time.
		Don't bring me down.
		No, no, no, no, no.
		I'll tell you what's wrong before I get off the floor.
		Don't bring me down.
		You want to see us with your parents and friends.
		I'm telling you what's wrong.
		No, I would not give you false hope on this strange morning day.
		But your mother and child reunion is only a motion ray.
		Oh, it's a little dark night.
		I can't find the life of me.
		Remember a sad day.
		I know they say let me.
		Just don't look out that way.
		And the course of a lifetime runs over and over again.
		But I would not give you false hope now on this strange and awful day.
		But the mother and child reunion is only a motion ray.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West to the Rockies, call mark at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country spread access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mother and child reunion.
		Ever wonder what that was all about?
		I've heard rumors.
		But you could probably take it all kinds of ways.
		Perhaps we're the children.
		I guess the question is, whose mom?
unidentified		SHUT UP!
unidentified		SHUT UP!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is James Gardner.
		His book is Biocosm, The New Scientific Theory of Evolution.
		That's the new scientific theory of evolution.
		Intelligent life is the architect of the universe.
		So, James, do you believe that we were seeded, that some intelligence long past came through and seeded us?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Even more basic than that, I believe that our universe, the physical constants of nature, the gravitational constant, the laws of physics were essentially tailor-made to speed the cosmos on a pathway toward the emergence of life and intelligence.
		And that was done in a prior cosmic cycle that essentially terminated with what's known in astrophysics as a big crunch, and which began again in a renewed cycle with the Big Bang.
		So, yes, the answer is basically yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We were saying that it was our environment that was seeded, and then that intelligence would just wait and see what came of it, what grew of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You set up the right environment and see what grows.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's more specific than that.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		What I say is that the laws of physics have a secondary function, that they are equivalent, they're essentially the cosmic counterpart of DNA, that they encode a program which is designed to yield life and ever greater intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, then our creators so specifically understood the laws that they were laying down with the environment they presented here that they knew what would become of it.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Essentially, yes, yes.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		With maybe not all the specific details, but certainly in the same way that, if you will, DNA knows that it's going to create a dinosaur or a person or a monkey, that the program that was written into the laws of physics essentially knew that it would yield life and ever greater intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what gives you the impression that this would be something other than that which we call the God of the Bible?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm interested, another way of putting it is I'm interested in pursuing and pushing the envelope on speculative naturalistic science as hard and as far as I can push it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's fine.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		But I think it is, I have many times had people say, you know, just as the Pope, for instance, embraced the Big Bang theory because of its similarity to the Genesis event, I've had many people say that exact comment that you offered, which is that this certainly resembles some basic parts of theology and of Judeo-Christian tradition.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And that's great, but my program is to push the bounds of naturalistic science out as far as they can be pushed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But when you push science, then you have a responsibility to science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it has to be a testable theory.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It does, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, okay, so fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you prove your theory?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Okay, there are several implications of it which I think are testable.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		One of the most important is that it implies that the origin of life and intelligence is a relatively robust phenomenon, that we're going to find independent origins elsewhere in the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why aren't you describing God?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm now describing a testable implication of my theory, which is that life should arise independently with relative frequence throughout the universe.
		A second testable implication is that we're not the end product of evolution.
		That through either artificial intelligence, computer intelligence, genetic enhancement, we're not the last word in terms of the sophisticated intelligence.
		That greater and more capable intelligence is going to come after us or alongside us.
		And that that's going to occur relatively soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And We're going to meet our makers.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		We're going to create intelligence that exceeds our own.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in that sense, meet our makers.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, or meet maybe the next stage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so then the testing of your theory would occur when we created an intellect perhaps greater than our own, whether it would be machine, computer, biological, or a combination thereof, whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be the proof of your intellect.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That would be one testable implication of it.
		that's interesting to contemplate and I think that you know there's a and I I think we're very close.
		I think that's probably the step that will be tested first.
		I think we'll find that.
		We will do that before we find steady signals, is my guess.
		And I think that could occur within 50 to 100 years.
		Maybe even sooner than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		There's a new book coming out by Ray Kurzweil, a computer theorist.
		It's called The Singularity is Near.
		And that singularity means when intelligence achieves a level of sophistication that we simply can't understand, when it stands to us as we stand to a butterfly or an ant.
		And Ray thinks that point is near.
		And by near, I think he means decades, not centuries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could perhaps grasp that.
		We are getting close on many fronts.
		In terms of understanding our own DNA sequencing, we're getting close.
		In terms of artificial intelligence, I think we're getting pretty close.
		In terms of manipulation of the human genetic.
		Yeah, all of these areas, we're pretty close.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And progress is accelerating.
		It's kind of Moore's law, you know, the law of the computer capacity doubles every 18 months.
		It's that concept writ large.
		And I think we are close, and that's one of the most because for my theory to hold any water, intelligence has to evolve far beyond the human level of intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's say that life is rare, but it's out there, much as we were seated, or however you view it.
		There are many who think that planets like ours come and, this is the important part, also go on a somewhat regularly scheduled basis.
		And it's kind of a race to see whether we develop technologically to the point that we can control our own fate or one of the many things that could get us, gets us.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I really agree with that viewpoint.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I absolutely do.
		And There was a wonderful, you know, the fact that I believe the universe is endowed with a life-giving principle doesn't mean that we as humans on planet Earth will necessarily survive.
		You know, if there's any practical lesson to be gleaned from the historical record of life on Earth, it's that evolution is a wastrel, a careless spendthrift.
		And think of the countless species that have perished for every species that's privileged to survive or leave successors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And why shouldn't the same not be true on a cosmic scale?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Why should the catastrophe of entire worlds, as one medieval philosopher put it, not be as commonplace in the vast universe as the casual extermination of a single species or even a single organism on planet Earth?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then our mission is to create the next evolutionary jump?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Essentially, yeah, that our mission is to help bring the universe to life, to grow the capability of intelligence, and to spread that capability.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so then perhaps we create a Machine intelligence that would be the only thing that might survive.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, or we create, or both survive, or we create what are called those self-replicating probes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, oh, yes.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about nanotechnological or both occur.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think the lesson of evolution on Earth is that we have certainly emerged, but there's also plenty of primitive bacteria still around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If SETI finishes their survey and or surveys, including the new laser stuff they're looking for, and they find nothing, what does that do to your theory?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think it weakens it.
		I think it tends to it, but it tends to weaken it.
		Because my basic notion is that life will arise relatively routinely as a matter of kind of the laws of chemistry that are programmed into our universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if we're alone?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, there's two ways to view that.
		If we're alone, you know, all the eggs are in our basket.
		My theory still could work, but it becomes a lot less plausible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then you must be rooting.
unidentified		I'm rooting for the set of those guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's just what I was going to say.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you imagine if we were to meet other intelligent life, what the nature of it would be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You imagine it?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I have done some thinking about that.
		And, you know, there's a new kind of lot of new thinking on that very topic.
		There's a biologist at Cambridge by the name of Simon Conway Morris who talks about what an evolutionary theory is called convergence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That, you know, that the creatures of Australia tend to look a lot like creatures of Europe or North America, even though they are from very different lineages, very different origins, but that there's only so many ecological niches to be occupied, and nature tends to use the same solutions over and over again.
		That would suggest that look something like us.
		Now, I think a lot of that depends on your assumption about at what level of evolution they are.
		If they're considerably ahead of us, life might have migrated, at least the most intelligent aspects of it, might have migrated to a software environment.
		They might be what computer scientists call infomorphs.
		And when you think about it, that has a lot of advantages in terms of immortality, or at least functional immortality, also in terms of interstellar travel.
		I have a new paper that's going to present the argument that if you're a smart extraterrestrial, a really smart one, what you might want to do is send not a hello signal, but essentially an instruction set for replicating yourself and your entire civilization.
		Because that signal can travel at the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it is a race, James, how do you think we're doing right now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As you look around the world and you look at all that's going on in every venue, you know, politically, socially, environmentally, especially environmentally, and with the wars and all the rest of it, if it's a race, how are we doing?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think there's ground for pessimism, but there's also grounds for optimism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's hear the optimism.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I think that there is a growing awareness that in some sense we're all in it together.
		Whether it is confronting the scourge of AIDS, whether it is an awareness of the fact that the planetary environment is basically one ecosystem,
		and whether it is one of the miracles of modern communication is that we can experience empathy with people who suffer and who are in need elsewhere in the world in a way that we never could before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we may have recognized and we may be preaching, but we are not yet practicing.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think that's largely correct, though.
		I think, you know, I think of the great stuff that Bill Gates is doing with his wealth of trying to deal with the AIDS problem and the malaria problem in Africa and India.
		I mean, I like to, I'm an optimist, so I like to seize upon those elements that give an optimist hope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, there's some of it, but truly, on a global scale, I'm afraid a pessimist right now, at least in my opinion, has a much better argument.
		I'm not happy about that.
		I just see it that way.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it's again, getting back to the point that we were discussing a little bit earlier about how important the Judeo-Christian tradition was for the birth of science, in some ways you have to, to make progress, you have to have an irrational faith in the possibility of progress.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you admit it's an irrational faith.
unidentified		I do.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I absolutely do.
		That doesn't mean that it's not the right way to proceed.
		Optimism, in other words, has survival value in a way that pessimism does not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps so.
		Perhaps so.
		Or perhaps one might suggest the pessimist might be ready for some of those bumps in the road that we know are there.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That's where realism comes in, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		So, yes.
		When did you decide to write this book?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I had written an article for the journal Complexity, which is the scientific journal of the Santa Fe Institute.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And it was about the topic of genetic engineering and human germline therapy and how that was really going to maybe create a speed up in the process of human evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're a big proponent for germline therapy, is that correct?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's coming.
		I'm not necessarily, I think it's virtually inevitable.
		I'm a limited proponent of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Yeah, because I think that's a good idea.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that the thing that we have to think through very carefully is how it might be used to essentially discriminate against less people that aren't kind of artificially manipulated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why would an optimist do such thinking?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, because I think in every technology, there is a dark side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We probably should take a moment and explain to the audience, germline therapy is the ability to vector with otherwise what would be germs genetic changes into the human being that could do all sorts of things, right?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It's even more than that.
		It's the ability to take a fertilized egg and edit the genome of that egg.
		For instance, if there were a gene in there that predisposed the infant toward Alzheimer's or toward Lou Gehrig disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's take a more interesting one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about something that would genetically predispose that same infant to an IQ of, say, three or four times what we have right now?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And that's the, that's, I think that is going to happen.
		That will happen after you get the sort of, you know, the technologies available to essentially correct for disease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think that's going to happen.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And then the great dilemma will be, and I think that's going to be relevant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shouldn't we or shouldn't we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm curious, would you at that moment be a proponent of go ahead, let's do it?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Within limits and with safeguards.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		The safeguards are, how do you possibly preserve that as an option with some degree of access for the less well-off?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you don't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At least not in the society and the economic makeup we've got right now.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And if that's the case, then there's the real possibility that that could be what biologists call a speciation event that we could essentially diverge into two species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold it right there.
		I guess that would be the haves and the have-nots, right?
		As usual.
		From the high desert in the middle of the night, I'm Mark Bell, and this is Coast to Coast A.M. What do Mel Gibson in the Coral Cask?
unidentified		so
		Don't know where I've been so blue Don't know what's come over you You found someone new And don't wanna make my breath blue I'll be fine when you're gone I'll just cry
		all night long Say it is untrue I'm gonna make my ride Wanna take a ride?
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east to the Rockies, call toll-free 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ART by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and this is my germline therapy music.
		That's what it is, you know.
		You want blue eyes?
		Hey, no problem.
		Roll up your sleeves.
		We've got a little shot for you here.
		It's going to modify your current genetic structure.
unidentified		And when you wake up in the morning, they're going to be blue, baby.
unidentified		That's, of course, just the first step.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, she's got them.
		She's something else.
		That's Crystal Gale.
		In a moment, we continue with James Gardner.
		It's all about how we got here.
unidentified		Ah!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am particularly intrigued with germline therapy, and you should be too, if you have done any reading, whether it's science or science fiction, on the subject.
		It's really something to digest.
		And I think we were talking about the haves and the have-nots.
		And I guess whether social progress would, at that point, you think, be consistent with the technological pace of achievement that we seem to be on.
		Do you suppose that when we get to that moment where we can modify, for example, the intelligence of a baby before it's born to be hundreds of percent higher?
		You think we'd move forward with that?
		I mean, after all, that would be, if it worked out, that would be the culmination and the, I guess, the stamp of approval on your theory.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's inevitable that's going to happen.
		I think once the technology is available, just look at cosmetic surgery, how popular that is.
		Just look at what kinds of resources parents will expend to get every possible advantage for their kid in terms of early education and enrichment.
		I think there's every reason to think that once that technology is available, safe, and efficacious, it will be deployed and quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that the deployment of, say, a child that would have, you know, I don't know, many.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		300%, 300 IQ.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, fine.
		400, 500 IQ.
		I don't care.
		An evolutionary leap, would that be in itself, all things being equal?
		I mean, it's a risk.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		It's a risk on many levels.
		We don't know how that kind of development, what kinds of social cross-currents it might create, what kind of who knows what the Muslim world, for instance, would think of something like that.
		We don't know how it will interact with the kind of emotional set of responses that nature has endowed us with.
		Is a person of that level of intelligence going to think of themselves still as a human being?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps not.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps not.
		How will they regard people with only 100 IQ?
		Will they regard them the way that I might regard my cocker spaniel?
		Perhaps so.
		And those are some of the risks.
		But I think that it's virtually certain that we're going to face those risks because the technology is so irresistibly attractive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since you, though, could not possibly understand the result of an action of that sort, there is going to be that moment whether you, you know, once you've achieved the technological capability to do it, we may not be that far from it.
		I mean, we are too, or something like that.
		So do we then choose to become gods?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, we choose the next step on the evolutionary ladder, and I think that next step is the first in a set of steps that will, at least under my theory, will endow our distant successors with what can only be described as godlike powers.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		But that's going to take a number of additional, you know, millions of years of additional evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm curious, just sort of, I guess, about what you think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you take today's organized religion and project it through, oh, I don't know, a couple of those kinds of choices, what do you think would happen to it?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That's a really interesting question.
		And I don't know the answer.
		I can't even fathom an answer or fashion an answer to that question.
		What I do think is clear, though, is that the process of what I would call co-evolution between science, culture, evolution is ongoing.
		And that it's not a static process.
		It's intensely dynamic, just as it has always been in the past.
		And this idea that you can sort of, you know, quarantine the field of religion from the field of science is, I think, is nonsense.
		I think they're going to interact and co-evolve.
		And that we're probably going to see essentially new belief systems emerge out of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		New religion.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I suppose it could be.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, as, you know, we talked earlier about how essential it was that the Judeo-Christian belief system to the birth of science.
		But it works both ways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I suppose, yes, it would.
		Where do you go in trying to nail this down, theory-wise, from here?
		I mean, you've written your book.
		Now, what?
		How do you proceed?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm in the process right now of attempting to develop other possible tests in addition to those that we talked about earlier, about the search for extraterrestrial intelligence and the prediction of the emergence of transhuman intelligence.
		For instance, I want to see if it is in fact true that, and to what degree it is true, that the physical universe, the laws and constants of nature, optimized for the emergence of life?
		I mean, are there ways in which...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You could try and prove it that way.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That would be one way.
		Another is obviously to keep searching patiently as we are doing on Mars right now.
		But search on other planetary venues.
		They're pretty interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Canthane and all the rest of that on Mars that there may even be life there now?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that's a very interesting possibility because once it got started, what we have learned on Earth is that life Can survive in extraordinarily extreme environments.
		The so-called extremophiles don't use oxygen, that don't photosynthesize, they live off of heat at the bottom of the ocean, they ingest sulfur, metabolize, and those kinds of organisms could exist a whole lot of places in the solar system, including deep underground and Mars, and essentially live off of geothermal heat.
		They could possibly exist on the giant gas planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Given, then do you think that that kind of life is extremely common and that complex life, like human beings, is extremely or even fairly rare, or how rare would you?
unidentified		I think it's certainly rarer.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		My only, and again, we'll know a lot more when we have more samples to judge from.
		I think it is somewhat rare, but not extraordinarily rare in the galaxy, in the universe as a whole.
		I think that it's likely that simple life is relatively commonplace, and that we're likely to find it even in our own solar system.
		By simple, I mean bacterial life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If everything that you're saying is so in the manner in which we evolved and came to be here, then if you were to write up a set of rules, ten of them say, and they were to replace, say, the Ten Commandments, in what way would they be different than the tablets?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure they would be different.
		Really?
		I think that in terms of the moral principles that are enshrined in those Ten Commandments, they're pretty well optimized.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can't beat them, huh?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		they're pretty well optimized yeah and uh...
unidentified		you know it's uh...
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's that I'm, again, it's not that I'm antagonistic to it, it's just that I'm pursuing an agenda that is different.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It's trying to push the sort of the speculative envelope of science as hard as it can be pushed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're doing that.
		No question you're doing that.
		But what you haven't done yet is prove it to me.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		And, you know, in science, every theory, every truth is inherently provisional.
		It's never, ever fully satisfied because it can always be refuted.
		But what I think that I have been able to articulate is a kind of new way of looking at the relationship of life and the physical universe.
		You know, you think of the Gaia principle on Earth, that the whole Earth is essentially a bias system and that life has modified the atmosphere, the geography, the oceans, has physically changed it.
		And what I'm suggesting is that sufficiently evolved life could actually re-engineer and change the physical cosmos and, in fact, acquire the ability to reproduce it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, James.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wouldn't that mean then that, for example, some American natives and other religions around the world that basically worship the environment, the Earth itself, the north, south, east, and west, winds, the sun, the environment, that they'd be closer to the mark than we are?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure that they would ever have contemplated the possibility that the ongoing process of evolution could give our distant successors, our distant progeny, the ability to actually reshape that environment.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think they would have kind of rested with a more mystical vision that this is the way it's always been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, perhaps so.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And mine is more of an engineering perspective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand, but they are, in effect, their religion is, in effect, paying tribute to that engineering process.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		In a way, and I think that's a fair statement, but they never had a scientific perspective.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		They never sort of thought of the possibility that the ongoing process of evolution could actually give our successors, our progeny, the ability to reshape the laws of nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So when you say that we're going to meet, I want to be clear, you're essentially saying we're going to meet those who created us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you saying we're going to do that through our own action rather than some sudden appearance?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we're going to create, I use this metaphorically, we're going to create the mind of God.
		We're going to create the capacity to replicate the universe.
		That's my theory.
		I call it the selfish biocosm hypothesis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sounds selfish.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Selfish in a metaphorical sense.
		Yes, yes, yes.
		Not in a literal sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		It might be a little bit.
		I mean, it's saying we're going to realize that we are the gods.
		And in that...
		At the moment that we create that which is so far beyond us in the next step, we see our Creator in our own creation.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That's a way of putting it.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		We are the precursors to a capacity that will transcend our ability to understand it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you were giving Las Vegas odds on our making it to that prior to self-destruction, you know, when we're dealing with money here, you've got to be realistic as opposed to optimistic or hopeful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, how would you set the odds of our making it?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Honestly, again, I think I try to be an optimist, but if you look at the record, let's take a look at the record of evolution on Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm asking you to be an odd setter, not.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think the odds are probably against us.
		I don't know by how much.
		I just have no way of estimating it.
		And the reason I say that is because the record of evolution on Earth is that most species perish.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Come and go.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Come and go.
		There are more vanished species that left no successors than there are survivors.
		But there are some survivors.
		So there's always hope.
		There's always room for optimism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps so.
		But I don't know.
		Just even general.
		Five and ten, that's half.
		Two and ten, one in ten.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think it's less than half.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Less than half.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I don't think I can rationally speculate beyond that, but I think that a lot of it will depend upon, as you put it, that race between technological capacity to self-destruct and a sense of responsibility for our planet and those who live on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Imagine a new religion for me.
		Can you do that?
		Can you imagine on what a new religion might be based?
		Just a stab in the dark?
		You know, as what you're imagining would occur would occur, with it would come a new religion.
		What might it be based on?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It might be based on a sense that we're responsible for our future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how do you think, what do you think would happen to all the old concepts of an afterlife or heaven and hell and all of the rest of that?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Based on, you know, kind of the way that, at least under, from my limited study of the subject, I think those concepts tend to get reinterpreted and reincorporated one way or another in a kind of new version of a religion.
		They tend to get recycled.
		For instance, we were talking about the Ten Commandments earlier.
		I can't imagine those becoming obsolete.
		No, nor can I. But I can imagine them being, you know, sort of reborn as elements of a reinterpretation or of a new religious vision.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in the way you think of things, if we were to get really cranking with germline therapy and we created virtually a new being superior in many ways to the current human being, wouldn't that be the end of us?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I don't think so.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I don't think we don't have to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		why would we have not at that moment fulfilled our destiny and simply you know the next spark in evolution well i think you know i don't right i don't think it kind of
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		There's still plenty of bacteria and fishes and mammals and mice and all kinds of other critters running around, even though we are arguably the apex of evolution in terms of intellectual capacity.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		So I think it's, and hopefully, we wouldn't be swept aside, but would live alongside whatever comes next.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's optimistic for sure.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because isn't it true that nature is just sort of full of the cycle of birth and then reproduction and fairly rapidly then death?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we see that all through.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		We do indeed, but we also, as I said, we see lots and lots of species that are living alongside us right now in the planetary biosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Fascinating stuff.
		And we're going to open the line shortly for James Gardner.
		This really is fascinating stuff.
		We were made.
		Well, not quite.
		The world was made, and then here we came.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell.
		I'm just beginning to see now I'm on my way.
		It doesn't matter to me, chasing the clouds away.
		Something falls to me.
		He took a hundred pounds of clay, and then he said, hey listen, I'm gonna fix this world today.
		Because I know what's missing.
		Then he broke his big sleeves up, and a brand new world began.
		He created a woman, and a lot of loving for a man.
		Oh, yes he did.
		With just a hundred pounds of clay.
		He made my life worth living.
		To talk with Art Bell.
		Form a wildcard line in area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To charge with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800618-8255.
		International callers may recharge by calling your in-country spread access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free, 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed we're talking about that 100 pounds of clay, and Roy, who molded it?
		My guest is James Gardner, and he's written a book.
		If you want to read more about it, it's called Biocosm, the New Scientific Theory of Evolution.
		Intelligent Life is the architect of the universe.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm curious, James, in previous encounters with this audience, since you've been on twice previously, what kind of reception do you usually get to your presentation?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I have a lot of folks who love the science, the edgy science of it, and then I have a lot of folks who ask me, why are you resisting the religious implications?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You want to try to answer that one now?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I guess basically what I said before, which is that I'm intent upon exploring this as a scientific hypothesis.
		And that means using the methods of science, sticking within the framework of science, because I think there's something terribly exciting from purely a scientific perspective to be learned here.
		This is what Brian Green, the physicist and superstring theory, he calls it the deepest problem in all of science.
		Why is the universe life-friendly?
		And I'm determined to push the frontier and try to explore that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		James, do you think we have immortal souls?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think there is an element, not in the sense that you mean it.
		I think there is an element in which we share the code of the universe.
		It's built into us and it's built into every other living thing.
		I wouldn't call that a soul.
		I'd call it our piece of the cosmic puzzle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Try it from a different perspective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When we physically die, do you believe that there is any survival of that which was our intellect, our consciousness when we lived?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think in the sense that we pass down through the stream of history.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		But not in a personal sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the real answer is no.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Not yet.
		But I wouldn't say the real answer is no.
		I think that our contribution to the ongoing process is passed down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's still a very long way from continued consciousness after physical death, right?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Okay.
		Let's see what the audience has to say.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with James Gardner.
unidentified		Hot.
unidentified		Do the wild thing at 775-727-1295.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, oh, oh, what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, never, ever use last names, Brian.
unidentified		Oh, because I get all kinds of callers?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we don't let people put their last names on.
		Just their first name.
		So Brian is fine.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And where are you, Brian?
unidentified		I'm in Canada in a city called Winnipeg.
		Okay.
		Yes.
		In a province called Manitoba.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Manitoba.
		All right.
		You have a question.
unidentified		Okay.
		In judging this thing, evolutionary process or evolution, I have a question.
		Why are monkeys still monkeys?
		Ha ha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, very good.
		Why are monkeys still monkeys?
		If what you're saying is true, James, then surely we, at some level, must be observing monkeys turning into something else or some of that sort of in-process kind of stuff.
		What do you have to say?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		We might be.
		And monkeys are still monkeys for the same reason that whales are still whales and sharks are still sharks.
		Because there tends to be, once a species is established, it tends to kind of stick in the pattern that's been established.
		I'm an adherent of a viewpoint called punctuated equilibrium in evolution, which is that evolution proceeds essentially by bursts.
		And then once a species is established, it tends to be pretty stable.
		But that doesn't mean that we might see other bursts in the future.
		But there's an element of stability in a species once it gets established.
		That's why we still have, as I said, whales, other mammals, not just monkeys, but tons and tons of relatively stable species.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but even all that said, there should be a scientific clue somewhere of the process underway, even at a macro level.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And it might show up, but it's, again, our timeframe is so we are biased in favor of sort of seeing rapid changes.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And changes occur, you know, they can occur over geological periods, millions of years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then if we could get some sort of life established in some soup that we would create in some sort of biodome, then we could conceivably attempt to prove that theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We could shock that environment in some credibly crippling manner and see if there was an evolutionary answer?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		We could.
		And in fact, I would say that you do see evolution in action today at the bacterial level.
		And you see it in terms of acquisition of immunity, mutation of the AIDS virus, for instance.
		You see it all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, when we can take Crystal's eyes, when we can take brown eyes and turn them blue, then we can probably cure AIDS, can't we?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		We may be able to, or at least get a whole lot better strategies for dealing with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'd roughly be on that road by then, though, when we can change an eye color, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, wildcard line, you're on the air with James Gardner.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Is that me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's you.
unidentified		Okay.
		This is Dr. Daniel here.
		I'm in here in Omaha, and this is the headquarters of Stratcom and the Space Command.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
unidentified		And my point of view is that he's kind of got it upside down.
		He's trying to perfect man when he's already perfect and he doesn't have very far to go.
		I, for example, was the one that discovered that you can take neural nets And put them into a computer, and they work similar to what the human brain works.
		And the thing that I learned the most was that there is no, there's all of these little creatures, the microbes, the animals, and so forth, are all communicating with each other.
		And you'll find that I agree with your extremophiles that there's probably life all over the whole universe scattered in bioplace, all over the place.
		So these things could actually have evolved to the point where they're extremely intelligent, even as microbes.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's an interesting idea, that in fact, that if you view a human being as a communal organism, a set of cooperating single-celled organisms, which in a way it is, yeah, you could have, and that's similar to an idea that Fred Hoyle advanced of the sort of the black cloud, that there could be intelligence in the form of an interstellar gas cloud.
		We just don't know.
		We're just at the beginning of understanding what forms intelligence could take.
		So I think what this caller is suggesting is certainly an area worth investigating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about, what's your view?
		We talked about germline therapy, and of course we talked about Moore's Law and where we're headed.
		Do you think, which do you think is more likely to evolve first?
		Do you think it will be machine intelligence or awareness or whatever, or that it'll be biological with germline therapy?
		In other words, where will the next leap occur?
		Which one do you look to?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think they're going to be very, they're going to, for whatever reason, they're pretty much on the same time frame.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And it's going to be, you know, I think we're talking maybe 50, 60, 100 years, not multiple centuries, though.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And it's an interesting question because Stephen Hawking, the Cambridge astrophysicist, Stephen Hawking advocates human germline therapy so that we can keep ahead of the machines.
unidentified		He says if we don't do that, we're going to be outclassed and fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very quickly.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fascinating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with James Gardner.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, is that me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's you.
unidentified		Hey, I was just concerned sort of that the conversation has been very left-brained up until this point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, in what sense?
unidentified		Well, it's just been concerned with, you know, how to improve humanity, but I think that humanity is at a point at which it can do whatever it wants as long as it looks inside itself and not necessarily outside itself.
		And that I think that, like, you know, everything is basically perfect at every level of creation throughout the universe, like as below, so above, and no microcosm, macrocosm, everything being equal at all levels type of thing.
		And I was wondering what James had to say about reaching ascension or maybe our next level through what utilities we already have that are perhaps undiscovered within ourselves now as opposed to utilizing left-brain technology to implement our next stage of development and perhaps putting us in maybe the line to go into a direction to go into that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you said simply all of this next step is going to come from within, not without, right?
unidentified		Yeah, basically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I don't disagree with that at all.
		In fact, I think that one of the but I think the two aspects work together.
		I think one of the great things about contemplating these mysteries about how and why the universe is bio-friendly is that it forces us to think about our relationship with the cosmos.
		It almost requires us to look inward as well as outward.
		And to think that there was a wonderful way of putting it that Freeman Dyson, the Princeton physicist, and also a very spiritually oriented individual, he said, you have to think of us as atoms in God's mind.
		That was the way he put it.
		I thought that was a very eloquent way of expressing that view.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this whole thing is rather eloquent, but has the potential to be also somewhat depressing, if you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, in some ways, and for a lot of people, and certainly spiritually, this is like a right hook to the jaw.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, in some ways, I suppose the Copernican Revolution was that, when suddenly we figured out that the Earth was not the center of the universe.
		And certainly in some ways, Darwin was like that.
		But I would argue that both of those revolutions also awakened us to a sense of the grandeur of the cosmos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with James Gardner.
		Hi.
		Hello.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yes.
		Art.
		James, this is Harley in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you're going to have to yell at us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not too loud.
unidentified		Okay, this here is Harley in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And first of all, I do believe that we've been visited since the beginning of time, and I do believe that we've had assistance in being an evolvement of man.
		But basically, my question, and you have several guests on there that talk about SETI.
		Well, right now, we have the technology to fly over any part of airspace, any country, without being detected.
		Well, I feel that an alien, you know, and their craft could be out in the middle of the desert right above those radio telescopes, and they wouldn't even know that they're there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Clearly, that could be.
		Sure.
		I don't disagree for a second.
		James, he's right, of course.
		We already have stellar stuff.
		We have invisible stuff.
		We're doing pretty well.
		So you could imagine another hundred years of technology or even much more than that.
		And if they wanted to be observing Us.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		There was a famous statement, I can't remember what scientists made it, but a very serious scientist who said that any sufficiently evolved technology is, from our perspective, indistinguishable from magic.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And I think that's absolutely true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I mean, in the scheme of things, wouldn't the odds be pretty good that the force that created the environment that allowed us would check back on the environment from time to time?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Maybe and maybe not.
		That's an open question.
		I think it's certainly a possibility.
		And as I said earlier, I think we have to be open-minded with regard to things that we're not used to being open-minded about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or even if we get very open-minded about this, you would think that the creative force, whatever it might be, would want to see how it was going at some point.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Or that there's some mechanism built into it to sort of serve as a kind of control mechanism to make sure it's on track.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe a big sign that it wouldn't be on track would be, well, let's think, what could it be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about a mushroom cloud?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		As we said before, that certainly would say it's not on track on planet Earth, but that doesn't mean that others might not be more fortunate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		International Line, you're on the air with James Gardner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, my name is Ian from Windsor, Ontario.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Ian.
unidentified		Hi.
		Thanks a lot for having me on.
		Sure.
		My question is, I suppose part question, part statement, but it relates to religion again, pointing the way to science.
		I know that Dr. Hugh Ross, he's a believer, when looking at Revelation, notes that, or he advances that, there are certain specific physics involved that reshape the world during the second coming.
		And when referring to those that are risen in Christ, he also advances that because the physical changes in the world have to advance or enlarge, that our bodies will also have to.
		And in keeping with the notion of evolution, for lack of a better definition, I wonder if perhaps this is again information pointing to something prophesied about.
		And with respect to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We only have a short time here, so.
unidentified		Oh, sorry.
		And just with respect to the beginning of God, St. Anselm's definition that anything that you can conceive of more than ultimately goes back to what God is.
		So I was wondering if, in keeping with the Pope connecting the Big Bang with Genesis, if perhaps your guest's information connects with what's prophesied in Revelation?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		James?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
		I don't know the answer to that question because I guess I'm not as familiar with the specific author that made the connections that he was describing.
		But I think that you see a lot of the themes of creation and destruction echoed in science and religion.
		And the connection is often accidental or fortuitous, but in some cases, as I said at the very beginning, the very irrational faith in the rationality of nature, that connection is what made science possible.
		And it was religion that made science possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's as much of a tip of the hat to religion as you're really going to be making, right?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess other than to say that, you know, that when we talk about the end point of the evolutionary process that I'm hypothesizing, I think you're talking about a state of development,
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		sophistication, intelligence that the ultra-skeptic Michael Shermer said, just as the old saying goes with regard to sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic, sufficiently evolved mind is indistinguishable from the traditional notion of divinity, of God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Have you devoted in your studies very much time to religion?
		i mean i you must have taken moments in and look really hard at at the bible and looked at it literally and compared it with what you think might be so and you just had to have done that you know i i i i i haven't Are you?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the next book is tentatively called Dreams of a Cosmic Community.
		But the most systematic effort I've made here is to look at that historical nexus between Judeo-Christian religion and the birth of science.
		And that's very clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'd settle actually for any religion.
		Or just sort of a general reference with everything you think you now believe and sort of a general look at all the religions.
		Because we're racing toward it.
		And one of these days, we're going to get there.
unidentified		We're going to create a living thing.
		Never.
		Yeah.
		What do Mel Gibson and the Coral Castle have in mind?
		Black velvet in the peace Up in Memphis, the music was like a heat wave White lightning,
		round and bright and wild Mother's babies in the heart of every schoolgirl Loving tender, even crying in the hour, so sweet and true Always wanting more Eating love and more Blackbell's mind Black Bell
		and I thought some time To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call ART at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country spread access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess I'm just a really, really tough customer because so far, you know, I don't think I see any reason to believe in one more than the other.
		Well, maybe there is, but maybe it's not James Si that I agree with.
		I don't know.
		I'm still mulling all this over, and I guess that's what we're meant to do.
		That's what it's all about.
		biocosm the new scientific theory of evolution intelligent life is the architect of the universe yeah i I guess I'm a pretty tough customer, and it's not that you haven't made a good case, James.
		It's just that I don't know that I believe any more at this moment as a result of what you've said, that it might have happened the way you described than I do otherwise, which leaves me out in the cold.
		So at least you've got something to hold on to, eh?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the nature of Scientific conjecture and speculative science.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It gives you a new perspective that may turn out to be completely wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's run this by you.
		We already ran by you the various sightings and the craft that have been so replete through our history.
		Things people have seen in the skies and on the ground and all the stories and all the rest.
		Okay, so let's shift over to another category that probably goes in the same grade bin.
		That would be ghosts, demons, angels, all these metaphysical experiences that people have had.
		Have you examined that?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I have not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You haven't?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		No, because it didn't crop up in terms of the specific work that I was doing on this theory, which is really a theory about cosmology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, but James, it would bear so on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if, for example, you could prove to your own satisfaction that a soul continues to exist on any level at all after physical death, that would be, well, it would be somewhat crushing to your theory, wouldn't it?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Maybe, maybe not.
		And maybe that's something I'll look at in my next book.
		Oh, you should.
		But I was kind of monomaniacally focused on this track, on this one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		First time calling our line, you're on the air with James Gardner.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Proceed.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		This is Pete and Warren, Michigan, out of CKLW, Windsor, Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I have a question for your guest.
		Well, I'm a Christian, and I do believe in creation, and I think evolutionist, that's also religion.
		What's his view on it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, James, what is it?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I guess I disagree, though I think that there are aspects of traditional evolutionary theory that are less than satisfactory.
		For instance, my book actually attempts to reconceptualize terrestrial evolution as a minor subroutine in a cosmological process by which the universe essentially comes to life and gains ever greater intelligence.
		So, I view it not as the sort of blind, undirected process that a lot of the traditional evolutionary theorists do.
		I think it's much more in the nature of a program, much more in the nature of the way that DNA creates an organism.
		It's much more end-directed.
		But that doesn't mean that I don't think it's - I think it's a science, not a religion, but it's not the same kind of science that the traditional ultra-Darwinists conceive of it as.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If mankind got a message from out there, James, how do you think that would change his view of let's imagine what kind of message we well just the mere existence of other intelligent life the message finally comes through perhaps light impossible light years away in terms of contact and you know that would be very probable but nevertheless boom we get the message there
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		is life out there how would that do I mean with the would there be a new religion at that point early it would tend to confirm my theory of course it would but you'd get a lot of converted folks I think so but I think it's I mean I will honestly I will tell you I will really be surprised if we don't get that kind of evidence in in it may take another century but
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		but may not I'd be extremely surprised if if the SETI research project does not succeed ultimately I'm really quite surprised that you're so skeptical about that evidence that already exists with regard to having been visited and so many things and I haven't studied it obviously as as much as a lot of people have but maybe I'll do that for the next book you've got so much to write about wild card line you're on there with James Gardner hi hi I just I got to
unidentified		close to the Phil Henry show uh well I I don't know um Phil's a great guy I have no problem with Phil he does me very well and so I I think it's uh hilarious art it's a pleasure talking to you hey listen I'm there's so many things I want to say but let me just let me just say this one thing I'll consider the caterpillar caterpillar it's a it's a furry little creature with a hundred legs and and and now with a brain the size of a grain of salt that's able to
		coordinate and control these hundred legs and that thing builds a cocoon for itself and crawls in there and emerges as this beautiful butterfly and flies away.
		And it's not that evolution hasn't been demonstrated.
		I mean, look at the statues in Rome when the man wore open-toed shoes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but the butterfly is still flying away with a brain the size of the end of your pencil, you know.
unidentified		Right.
		And this is a miraculous thing that can only be explained by creation.
		And the thing is, is the more degrees and worldly degrees that people have, the more they become spiritually retarded.
		And so it's the lowly People like myself that have this great opportunity to call in and say, give the Bible more weight because therein lies all truth in one book because it's simple.
		Simple truth, all contained in one book.
		And if you want to get into complicity, there's a lot of books you can go out there and read, all of which are a bunch of nonsense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Appreciate the call.
		And there is a perfect example, James, of probably, I'm just going to guess now, but I'm going to say at least 50% of the reactions out there.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I think, you know, really, you should take a look at, for example, metaphysical experiences and try and determine whether there's any validity to them.
		That would be one legitimate avenue for you to follow, as well as, you know, looking at what SETI's coming up with.
		And, of course, the Bible.
		I mean, you really do have to look into that and other religions and where they might or might not fit in.
		I mean, there might already be a religion out there, for all you know, that virtually believes as you do.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, and it's, you know, again, as I, my project has been to push the envelope on speculative science.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I completely agree, as I said at the very beginning, I don't think science would exist if it were not for the mindset that the Judeo-Christian tradition created in Europe in particular.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on there with James Gardner.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		The person was describing the Ten Commandments and then the recent political debates on these freedoms of religion and having different things in city buildings and that.
		I was taught that there are as many as 17 commandments and each religion picks their ten.
		And essentially, if you don't promote all 17, you're promoting just your religion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I haven't seen them.
unidentified		And in the Golden Rule, there's like a dozen of those, the Islamic being the most difficult, Christianity being presumptuous, and the Hindu ask that they be given the wisdom to do what's good for the other person.
unidentified		And if you'd listen to Bill Gates, the real problem is to find a way to incorporate the universal language of mathematics in line after line so you don't have to use millions of lines of English to accomplish the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or one of my frequent guests, Dr. Michio Kaku, he is fond of saying that the theory of everything, that which brings it all together, that magic moment, may be an equation no longer than your thumb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think, James?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think that's very possibly true.
		It would be interesting when you have him on next time to ask him what he thinks about the possibility that superstring theory, which is his field of expertise, seems to allow millions and zillions of different kinds of universes with no one of them mathematically favored and only a tiny fraction of which would be life-friendly.
		And how can that mystery be solved?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I would ask of Dr. Kaku and yourself, because you're really sort of in the same, I don't know, you're over there standing there with Dr. Kaku in a lot of the ways you believe, but you may not share exactly the same beliefs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're kind of in the.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Same ballpark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you really are.
		And why are you so dismissive so quickly of these other things?
		It seems like they're so important, whether it's religion in the Bible, the real Bible, or it's the possible visits we've had, or it's people's abilities that would suggest that there can be communication with those who have passed on.
		I mean, any of these things would be very impactful on your theory.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I guess I want to make sure I'm not dismissive of them.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I simply, you know, I'm not a personal expert on these topics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But in the sense that you haven't taken a harder look.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I haven't, no.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And I think that one of the jobs of somebody who proclaims themselves to be scientifically focused is to always keep an open mind on topics that might seem very outlandish from the point of view of traditional science, because often those are the very areas that have been the most fruitful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it is not so wild as to imagine that if we had a creator that was an intelligence that's capable of eclipsing light years and interdimensionally traveling or who knows what, that they would check back on there.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not.
		No, I agree.
		I agree with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with James Gardner.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah.
		One of the things I've been curious about is I'm surprised you haven't taken a look at secular humanism and the way they look at the world, because although the precept you're coming at is that this is some sort of intellectually driven kind of like creation of the singularity from the very beginning, it's kind of like we've gone full circle.
		We've gotten to the point where our intellect has completely reversed entropy.
		We've realized how to reverse it.
		We go, boom, let there be light.
		And we started a whole new universe with our intellect directing that evolutional basis in the cosmology.
		Or whether or not it's simply that's the most stable probable outcome of the string theory.
		And if it's that stable, out of the infinite number of possible universes that make it likely that we have life, an intelligent life, or maybe just a few, but out of the infinite number that are possible, those are the only ones that are stable.
		Of course they exist.
		Because in that instant existence and singularity, those are the only things that are left behind.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		Yeah, I think there's something to that that's very, very interesting, which is that, and I would take it one step further and say that in a sense,
		the role of life and intelligence is to, in a way, to stabilize the cycle that string theory contemplates so that you have not a random chaotic process of cosmic reproduction,
		which is sort of the traditional theory of astrophysicists around a field called eternal chaotic inflation, but that in fact you have a kind of stabilizing role of life and intelligence in that process, which makes the life-friendly cosmos the most likely to persist and reproduce itself over an extended period of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And again, you think that this process is close to a very important juncture.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think we're well, I think in terms of we're about to ratchet up the capabilities of intelligence in a very significant way through the emergence either through germline therapy or through artificial intelligence or both, we're about to ratchet it up to a transhuman level.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And I think that's fairly close, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		but at the same time you're very honor i caught quite a bit of hesitancy in your voice advocating you know some leap i mean science for They always have this moment where they can either push the button or not push the button.
		And I'll tell you something.
		It's been my observation that they almost always push the button.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think I agree.
		I think that's almost like we were talking about with germline therapy.
		I think once the capability is there and it's relatively safe and efficacious, I think it will be done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, but what makes you think it's going to be safe?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, safe in the sense that...
		Well, safe in the limited sense that you can reliably, for instance, edit out the gene that might predispose you to Alzheimer's or edit in the gene that might tend to give your progeny greater intellectual capability.
		I don't think that's safe at all necessarily in a long-term sense, in a more basic sense, but safe simply in the limited sense of having a predictable outcome in terms of the kid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, once the real manipulation begins, the span of time between curing some early diseases and doing godlike things, oh, that's going to be small, relatively small.
		I think it will be relatively small.
		Once we're on board, oh, boy.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I agree.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And that's, you know, that's, I wrote in one of my papers for complexity that, you know, conceivably that could be an evolutionary watershed as profound as the Cambrian explosion, which is when multicellular animals first developed.
unidentified		Yes.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It could be that deep, that profound a juncture.
		Because what it really would mean is that we have, in effect, directed evolution.
		We've assumed control of the future direction of evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but you know, if this were common, and even ruling out those who would blow themselves to smithereens before they made it, dog on it, James, there ought to be, numerically, quite a number out there.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		There ought to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look at all those stars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look at all those planets going around those stars.
unidentified		They ought to be quite a few of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we should be in contact by now.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is a mystery, I must say.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And I don't know that if we ultimately do not succeed in the SETI research, I think that's a very serious blow to my theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I've what have I heard?
		I've heard that if I believe that SETI, was it Seth who made the comment?
		believe seth is quoted or somebody from said he is quoted as saying that if they don't get somewhere in the next i can't remember forty or maybe fifty years or something like that there's going to have to be a statement made You would.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'd maybe give it another 40 or 50 years just to be safe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A little more time.
		Okay, we're here at the bottom of the hour, so hold on, James.
		Fascinating to think about all this, isn't it?
		James Gardner is my guest.
		I'm Mark Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
		that thing that tries to make you think in the nighttime.
unidentified		I'm on a full garden.
		And I want you all return by time You go scrolling through the crowd like Keeps alarming, cultivating her friends.
		She comes out of the fun in a film dress, crying like a woman of color.
		Oh, life is bigger.
		It's bigger than you and you are not me.
		The links that I will go to, the distance in your eyes.
		Oh, no, I've said too much.
		I set it up.
		That's me in the corner.
		That's me in the spot.
		Life is losing my religion.
		Trying to keep up the heat.
		And I don't know if I can do it.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903 from coast to coast and worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast to Coast AM with ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that would be me in the corner.
		All right.
		James Gardner is my guest.
		His book is BioConsumer, The New Scientific Theory of Evolution.
unidentified		intelligent life is the architect of the universe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The End Well, we have a real optimist on our hands here with James Gardner.
		Welcome back, James.
		Thank you.
		So far, is the public everything you thought it would be?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating stuff.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with James Gardner.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, my name is Mike.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Mike.
unidentified		Calling from Syracuse, New York.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		My friends call me Alien, Mike, because every time they have a question about aliens or paranoia, they come and ask me.
		And I tell them there's no such thing as aliens.
		And they say, why?
		I said, just neighbors.
		There you go.
		But I think Whitley could straighten this all out if he was up tonight because when he asked the Grays what the deal was, they turned to him and said, God's dream is reality.
		And that pretty much sums up what your guest is trying to put across to us viewers out here tonight.
		I've never been so excited about a topic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're not viewers mostly.
		We're listeners because this is radio.
		But, yeah, Whitley's an example of somebody who's had very close one-on-one experiences.
		And, you know, there is some proof.
		I mean, I've interviewed people, James, who have removed things from people.
		I mean, you know, it's really strange stuff.
		And it really does deserve an examination because, you know, it would go a long way toward validating your theory.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I said, I'm open to all kinds of evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just not exposed.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		But what I think is also interesting is the idea that the communication, if you will, could be embedded in the laws of physics.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That would be the most subtle way of sending a message of all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As people suggest, the Bible code is there.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, that in effect, that the laws of nature could contain a subtext, a program, a kind of DNA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, got it.
		Wildcardline, you're on the air with James Gardner.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Ark.
		Hi, James.
		This is Jeff calling from North Carolina.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		How are you doing this evening?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
unidentified		One quick comment and one quick question for you.
unidentified		A couple of comments is the quote you've been giving about sufficiently advanced technologies in this single From Magic was by Arthur C. Clark.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I remember now.
unidentified		And he also had another comment that is applicable.
		He said that perhaps our role in this universe is not to worship God, but to create him.
		And a lot of your ideas sound like Frank Tipler's ideas on philanthropic principle and Edward Harrison and the old Russian cosmism philosophy.
		But let me put my skeptic hat on to you.
		And here's my challenge to you.
		How come most of the universe seems to be bio-unfriendly, that it seems to be inhospitable to life?
		If you look at things like mass extinction events, ice ages, meteor bombardments, diseases, it seems to be that there's a lot of bad design, a lot of contingent events in the universe.
		Like the Neanderthals and the dinosaurs probably would say that it wasn't very well designed for them.
		So how about all the evidence that points, that disconfirms your theory?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's an excellent question.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And I think that you can look at that same evidence and infer from it that those events, or at least patterns of events like those, may be in fact essential for the process of the continued emergence of ever greater intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, part of the design is what you're saying.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		If the meteorite hadn't hit the Earth, dinosaurs might still be in charge and mammals might still be little mouse-like critters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller?
unidentified		But wouldn't there be a better way of doing that than destroying the dinosaurs to begin with?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure that I think that there might not be a better way.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That sort of nature red and tooth and claw may be part of the process by which complexity emerges and intelligence emerges.
unidentified		I would think that the designers could come up with a better plan than destroy 99% of all life on Earth to reach some stage of intelligence.
		But I've read your book.
		I thoroughly enjoy it.
		I especially like the naturalistic analysis you take.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		It's a fine-tuning argument.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I really appreciate it.
unidentified		So thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Take care.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with James Gardner.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, George.
unidentified		Good morning, James.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I'm Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		George will be here tomorrow.
unidentified		Sorry, Art.
		Good morning, Art.
		Anyway, I try to have an open mind with all your topics.
		But, you know, with all the prejudices and the biasness in this world we live in, for example, could you imagine if George Bush stood up and said he was an atheist?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not tracking with you exactly.
unidentified		Well, of course, this country was founded on Christianity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		So, you know, when a person believes that God is not there, that there's another force behind it besides God, and then we have a problem, I believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there you are, James.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A problem.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think it is.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think the debate about how we got here, whether it is a naturalistic process or a supernatural process, is incredibly interesting and fruitful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sure is.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And nothing could be more important to debate.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And the other thing I want to add is that, as I said from the very beginning, there wouldn't be science as we know it except for the Judeo-Christian heritage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, why haven't they turned out to be better friends then?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I don't know the answer to that, but it's inconceivable.
		It's why there was no science in any other culture.
		I mean, the Chinese had wonderful technology achievements, but they didn't have true science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		I mean, that really is true.
		When you look at it, none of the other world's religions yielded science.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		None of them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, while it's not a religion, the communists did pretty well.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I think that's derivative.
		Well, they didn't really get it started.
		And don't forget that even during all the era of communism, there was a pretty strong Orthodox movement still going on in Russia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There was.
		That's given.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with James Gardner.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		This is Leah Collin from San Diego, listening to you on KOGO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
unidentified		I have a comment and a question for James.
		I believe in God, and I also believe that God created evolution.
		I don't think there's any conflict there whatsoever.
		I believe that there's a divine order to the universe.
		I believe that there is a possibility there is life elsewhere.
		I don't know, but it's possible.
		I think that the Bible is mainly allegory and parables with some history mixed in.
		I believe Jesus is a divine being, but I don't necessarily believe that religion is necessary.
		You can believe in God without even having a religion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't think God requires that religion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if James can allow for a divine individual like Jesus and can you, James?
unidentified		And I have a question.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll get to the question.
unidentified		I also have a question that you're going to be talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I got that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold the question.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		James?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I don't think that I, in my theory, I am pressing a naturalistic explanation, not a supernatural explanation.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It may turn out that I'm wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What a surprise that'll be, huh?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it certainly is.
		I think most scientific theories end up in the dustbin of history.
		But that's what I'm pressing for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Carl, your question?
unidentified		Thank you, Art.
		I believe, I wanted to ask him, I believe that when you try to look at things intellectually sometimes, and I'm not saying that you think this way, but I feel that some people who are not certain about the existence of God are concerned about thinking there may be something greater than themselves.
		And so they want to just have scientific achievements to become greater without thinking there may be a being greater than themselves.
		And I don't have a problem with thinking there's a being greater than myself.
		So I just wonder how you feel about that.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I think that there is certainly intelligence and an intelligence that will emerge that's vastly greater than our own, and that that kind of intelligence existed in the very distant past, in a prior cosmic cycle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you only apparently believe that that intelligence will spring from our own loins.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that we're an essential element in the process, but I don't think this is the first time around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you not think that we'll be visited by the originators?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That's possible.
		But it's also possible that...
		Well, because I think that the nature of the cycle that I'm hypothesizing is that you have essentially one cosmic cycle that occurs that ends with a kind of a big crunch,
		and that the next step is a new big bang, and that what is capable of surviving that transition is really the set of laws of nature that are kind of like the cosmic DNA.
		I think that's all that can survive, all that does survive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you also think the fuse is lit.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with James Gardner.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hello?
		Hello.
		Yes, I don't want to argue with your guest one way or the other.
		It's an interesting concept he has.
		And what I'd like to know is, how does he think an intelligent alien life form would look at us politically since we've been involved in more modern warlike factions and situations than any other country in the world?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying we're warlike?
unidentified		Oh, absolutely.
unidentified		Even though we think we're right, we've been in more modern wars, I think, than any other nation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, all right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, James, how about that?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Color has certainly in general, not necessarily the United States, because I don't think that an alien intelligence would necessarily differentiate us, but I think that they would look at us as a sort of a risky outshoot of the tree of evolution,
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		one that might face the hazard of falling off in the not-too-distant future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why, James, you know how they might look at us as a virus, James?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That's possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Might even be more than possible when you think about it carefully.
		International Line, you're on the air with James Gardner.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, I can barely hear you.
unidentified		Oh, I'm sorry.
		I'm just a bit nervous.
		I'm only 17.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well then, 17 or not, yell at me a little bit.
unidentified		Okay, I totally agree with the last caller.
		Well, maybe not.
		Because apparently.
		Sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We lost him.
		Let me try again.
		Are you there?
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fresh start.
unidentified		I'm extremely nervous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, try to relax, take a deep breath, and ask what you meant to ask.
unidentified		Well, not ask, just um um a bit of uh experience of mine.
		Uh this whole thing about it, every religion and I think you're impactful.
		All right, um, I'm gonna let you go.
		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, all right, no, that's quite all right.
		That happens.
		Uh, first time caller line, you can make a stab at James Gardner here.
unidentified		Hi, Art, Mr. Gardner.
		Hi.
		My name is William.
		I'm listing on KEX Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yep.
		It's with a little trepidation that I offer this information to you.
		I want to know if I fit into your scheme of things.
		All my life, I seem to have had the ability to manipulate time, space, matter, including people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So here is one of these people that you're going to have to study, James.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I've done this in dreams, too, all my life, but there's about, oh, maybe 15, 16 occurrences that happened in real life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How does this relate to my guest, Color?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		Oh, well, he was talking about people coming on with higher intelligence and all that stuff.
		At age seven, my IQ was 214.
		And I'm currently ranked up there with Plato and Socrates.
		I have a PhD in metaphysical philosophy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, then maybe he's making the case, James, that this change that you're expecting, maybe is there a possibility that we'll be surprised, that it will not come from manipulation of our genetic structure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It will not come from anything we do by digging inside our own psyches, but rather the change will just be some natural evolutionary surprise.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		That's possible.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you have, for instance, you have every three or four hundred years, you have an individual like Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein who suddenly appears that an individual like that can only be characterized as a mutant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-uh, a mutant.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, I think that that level of intelligence has to be viewed as a mutation.
		Now, so it is possible that a level of intelligence will emerge spontaneously, but I think it's more likely that germline manipulation is what's going to get us there.
		And artificial intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So I take it you follow these sciences very closely, right?
		I try to, yeah.
		Stay up on the cutting edge of it all?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure that I'm always able to stay on the absolute cutting edge, but I do try to follow them pretty closely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So again, as a way to end this, I really would suggest that there are these other incredible areas that you could look at and certainly should look at.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And I'm totally willing to do that.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, I had a whole lot to digest just to put this one book together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure of that.
		All right.
		Your book, Biocosm, The New Scientific Theory of Evolution, Intelligent Life is the Architect of the Universe.
		Fascinating stuff.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Where can they get the book?
		Amazon.com.
		And also you can reach Amazon and Barnes and Noble and other booksellers through my website, which is biocosm.org.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we no doubt have a link on the website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We do.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		How long has the book been out?
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		It was published first in September, and it was just selected last, recently, as one of the top 10 science books published in 2003 by Amazon's editors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why, congratulations.
		Thank you.
		It sounds...
		So, James, thank you for being here.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Art.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		I really appreciate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was a lot of fun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
james gardner ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, bye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, James Gardner, and why not?
		You know, it is as possible as many other things, isn't it?
		But it's always fascinating to even contemplate one's origins and imagine for the intellectual fun of it, if nothing else, all of the various possibilities.
		Well, as always, it has been a pleasure to be with you this weekend, and I look forward to next.
		Weekends are kind of nice in the sense that by the time the weekend gets here, I've got all of the week's news to digest, pour through, and sort of form my own comments about.
		So doing weekends is pretty cool.
		But coming up tomorrow night, we turn the radio back to George.
		And that's, I guess, the last thing in that process coming up right now.
		Crystal Gale, none other than, she sang it just for me, here it is for you.
unidentified		Night in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
		This magical journey will take us on a ride.
		Filled with the longing, searching for the truth.
		Will we make it to tomorrow with the sun shine on you?
		Good night in the desert.

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