Art Bell

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April 4, 2004 - Art Bell

02:52:14

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard Heinberg - Oil Dependence

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58:14

richard heinberg

01:00:57

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Come on, hi, Jennifer, the great American Southwest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With you all, good evening, good morning, good afternoon, whether you may be in the world's balloon zones, all covered one way or the other by this program, Coast Coast AM, the weekend version of the Way of Martel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is an honor to be here with you.
unidentified		And here we go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here we go, I guess.
		You know, I've got to do something with this, so I don't know what.
		A week ago, after, I don't know, beginning to get reports, I asked the audience to illuminate me with any paranormal sexual encounters they might have had.
		And the reason I did this is because I've had quite a few expert guests on there, almost all of whom, you know, the out-of-body people and the remote viewers and just about every one of them allude, some of them more strongly than others, to the sexual content, the paranormal.
		Not easy to cover, not easy to discuss, but I've also concluded, not possible not to discuss.
		Now we're going to try and do it without becoming salacious at all.
		By the way, I just read a relevant book, and boy, was it a good book.
		There's quite a bit of salacious sex in it, though pretty good, I must add.
		It's called Body Rides by Richard Lamond.
		You might want to check into it.
		It's out on the current, you know, wherever you grab your paperback books.
		I'm a continual, as my wife is, consumer of books, just one after another after another.
		I'm a reader, always have been.
		It's called Body Rides by Richard LeMond.
unidentified		It's really good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or really bad, I suppose, if you are offended easily.
		And I understand that some of this content could become offensive to somebody.
		I'm going to try and make sure it doesn't.
unidentified		Here's a typical email.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Adira, when you first put out the call for reports of astral sexual experiences, I ignored it.
		Although, after listening to guests on your programs, I realized that I probably had had several of these experiences that I previously dismissed as vivid dreams.
		I thought they were too unremarkable to share.
		They occurred with either a former boyfriend of 25 years ago or with someone who I didn't know during waking life, but who seemed to know me in his state or, in quotes, nice enough to get to know better.
		However, when you stated last night that you were overwhelmed with reports of negative experiences, that's actually not quite true.
		I said experiences.
		Now, I do admit, over half are negative.
		But she goes on, I felt that as an MA cognitive psychologist, I have to point out that your sample of reports is skewed toward those who have had negative experiences.
		I think that's right.
		Those who have had negative experiences are highly motivated to share them since they're frightening.
		And probably many folks who have shared these stories with friends, family, and helping professionals have had their experiences minimized.
		They need the cathartic experience of telling their story to someone who will listen to them and believe them.
		On the other hand, those of us who have had pleasant experiences don't really have much of a story to tell except it happened.
		It was great, refreshing, and nice to wake up to.
		Any further rapturous descriptions would be highly of a personal nature, and the majority of folks would not feel compelled to share as they don't shout about their waking sexual experiences from the mountaintop.
		So I wouldn't take the large sample of negative reports as an indication that most astral sexual experiences are negative.
		I certainly agree with her.
		I do support further exploration of the topic, though, on your program.
		I don't see a problem with airing these topics on late-night radio.
		After all, Howard Stern can use profanity, discuss his outrageous topics during morning commute time, and we've all been exposed to the mainstream news media using phrases like oral sex during the Clinton administration.
		I think we can address this topic in a dignified manner, and I agree.
		I just want to emphasize again to my audience, I've been used to looking at responses for years now on various topics, some of which have had gigantic, like the shadow people, for example.
		But I'm telling you right now, the response to this topic, to the sexual aspect of the paranormal was just way out of the norm.
		I mean, thousands of emails.
		So this is a big thing that not many people are willing to talk about.
		In fact, I'm going to have a lady on in a moment, a doctor who will be incognito.
		And so she's chosen to call herself Dr. Incognita.
		The female version, I guess, of being incognito wouldn't be sexually specific anyway.
		Well, anyway, so she's going to call herself Dr. Incognita.
		And she's going to, a few words to tell us about all of this.
		She's one of those who, one of the thousands, thousands who responded to me.
		And here's, I guess, a plea I would make.
		The paranormal investigators who are out there, for obvious reasons, probably kind of shy away from this topic, I hope that a few of you, and I know you're listening this evening, will decide to headlong, rush into this topic, and see what you can find out, see how really common it is.
		And I'm telling you, it's very common.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		wishing to remain anonymous then here is our Dr. Incognita cute welcome to the program well hello it's a pleasure to be here and thank you for the opportunity to express my viewpoints on this subject I'm happy for you too you were one of the I'm telling you land slide of emails that I received thousands and thousands doctor are you at all surprised that I had such a gigantic response
unidentified		I definitely am very surprised.
unidentified		You are?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
unidentified		Well, because, of course, that's not my specialty to get into this kind of thing in the profession I'm in.
		And I've had some dealings with it sparsely throughout the years.
		But I was surprised you had so many emails sent to you on this subject.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my thinking when I was finished being shocked by the wave after wave that came in was, well, you know, sex is a big part of life in our waking moments, in our non-paranormal moments, in our very normal moments, and why wouldn't it be a big part of life everywhere?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everywhere.
		In other words, in the paranormal or in, I don't know, in the whole paranormal world, why wouldn't it be?
		Well, I guess the answer to that might be, well, because you don't have a body, and so you wouldn't think that sex without the body, without the physical aspect of everything, would play much of a part.
		But wrong, I guess.
unidentified		Well, the way I look at it, the sexual energy is creative energy.
		And the first creative energy came in when the physical universe started, which was the big thing.
		And that energy is orgasmic energy.
		And so the spirits that then were formed, because spirit is light, and that is when light started, when the starting of the spiritual creation came energy first.
		And with that explosive energy, there was a sensation there that was more than just a sensation.
		It was a oneness of spirit.
		And sort of an...
		Excuse me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
		I didn't mean to interrupt.
		So the fact they call it the Big Bang is simply coincidental.
unidentified		Yes, but you know what?
		There are many coincidences.
		We say, oh, they carry the weight of the world on their shoulders.
		And it's true.
		If your shoulders are hurting you, you are overburdened with certain things.
		So we often pick words that are very descriptive of what's going on.
		And so I find that the energy that's there, we all crave to be one.
		So we might crave to be one in a physical union, whether it be heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual.
		It is still a craving to be one.
		And it duplicates then that orgasmic energy or reproduces that energy at the beginning when everyone was one without all these divisions and differences that cause us to fight one another with a physical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in what way?
		I mean, I interview people who talk about out-of-body experiences and other aspects of the paranormal.
		Is that one way that these sexual encounters are occurring?
		Is it people having out-of-body experiences or what?
unidentified		Well, my feeling on it is that the people that experience this have allowed the stress of life to burden them down so much that it does affect the glands and the organs of the body, the systems, the cells.
		Every part of the body is affected by the inability to handle physical and mental stress.
		And when things start getting out of balance, the organs and the glands start to malfunction, the hormones are not then balanced, then the body starts to become weakened and vulnerable and makes itself then available for outside attacks of this nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're saying that people who are stressed, people who are weakened, are more available for invasion?
unidentified		Exactly.
		A person who's able to handle stress well, basically have a positive nature.
		We all get negative facets that hit us.
		But if you can learn how to let it go, ground it, then you're going to remain more healthy than someone who just gets absorbed in grief or anger or resentment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, what about this lady who wrote me the email?
		I mean, she was saying, look, I'll bet you that a good healthy percentage, if not most of the responses you got, were negative.
		And they were, but not by much.
		Fully half of them were from people who were saying, you know, it wasn't bad.
		So they're not all negative.
		And you were sort of drawing connotation there where the weak is taken over by somebody who attacks them.
		But I guess in some cases it's not necessarily unwelcome or whatever.
unidentified		Well, now, that's a very interesting concept that I hadn't taken a look at until you mentioned that, lady.
		But I actually know of a woman who also expressed the same feeling.
		She didn't talk about being attacked in an unpleasant way.
		She just said this very sensual feeling would come over her.
		And I know from the way she was saying it that it was an orgasmic feeling.
		And she did enjoy it.
		But the way she got this, she even would experience it right in front of people.
		And then she's not going to brag about it or show it off.
		And then she said, you know, she's not going to be a person.
		And she was in a certain religious group that was more along the spiritualistic, a different, a point of view that I could say would be more related to the occult or,
		or the darker side spiritualism and not to hurt anyone it was just that somehow this track of thinking that that also and she had a health problem so you know not that we don't all have health problems at time but hers was rather serious and had caused her not to be able to paint and so on, which she had done before.
		She lost that ability and that desire to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, you clearly seem to feel that weakened people are vulnerable and you seem to, you know, sort of paint them as victims of an attack.
		But maybe that's only half the story.
		After all, I do interview a lot of people.
		Can I call you just Nita instead of Incognita?
		Nita.
		All right, Nita.
		You know, there are people who endeavor to have these experiences, who have learned how to travel out of body.
		And if you encourage them to talk about it, they really will start talking about a lot of sexual encounters as though it's a big part of what they do.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		Well, as I say, they are enjoying recreating creation, the energy of creation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what it is.
		The energy of creation.
		that's a big one all right um do you think it's one of these vastly under report i We're prudish compared to the rest of the world, frankly.
		And right, wouldn't you agree?
unidentified		I definitely agree.
unidentified		From what I hear about other countries, we are very, I mean, you know, over in Africa, they think nothing of walking around with no clothes on, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in Europe.
unidentified		I don't mean all parts of Africa.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And in Europe.
		I mean, the attitude towards sex is very different in the media and everywhere else than it is in America.
		We're actually kind of brutish.
		So people would tend not to talk about this kind of thing.
		And so I guess I'm asking, how common you think it really is?
unidentified		Well, from what you're gathering, the information you're gathering, it sounds to me like it's very common.
		We have a lot of unhealthy people in the world who do make themselves vulnerable for multiple entities within them.
		In other words, basically when a child is born, take in the breath of life, and that is actually spirit, to become a living soul after you take the breath of life.
		And what enters is the spirit.
		So technically, there's a difference between spirit and soul.
		The spirit is what you breathe in.
		And if you look that word up in the dictionary, the word is wind.
		And so when you breathe in the air or the wind, why you will receive the spirit, which then enlivens the body, which is not really a full human being until it takes in the breath.
		So all babies come into the world with one spirit.
		But eventually, because of the negativity and the actually it's a materialistic outlook.
		So what is the negativity that causes us to become ill?
		It's materialism and putting spirituality down, which would be kindness and goodness and peace and trying to get along and tolerate one another.
		The things that would make the world a utopia.
		We resist those things, and that causes us to be sick and to die.
		We wouldn't have to die so soon.
		We would not have to be sick like we are if we learned how to get along and be cooperative with one another.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well clearly then you view this as a negative, pretty much as a negative experience.
unidentified		Well, yes, I think it's better to have one spirit in a body.
		It's far less confusing.
		But people will take on multiple spirits and they can have different plaguings with that.
		So it's just more confusing to have more spirits in your body than one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so the best way not to have this happen, if you don't want it, is to be healthy in your mind, in your spirit.
unidentified		Exactly.
		Let go of physical stress, mental stress.
		Just do more of what you want to do.
		Don't just make yourself a slave to culture and society.
		You begin to have an outgoing outlook on life that opens up new ways of thinking.
		Open-mindedness, not closed-mindedness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, listen, Doctor, thank you for being here this evening.
		I really appreciate your words on this subject, and I'm sure we're going to do a whole lot more.
		Thank you for being here.
unidentified		Well, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		All right, that's Nita, Dr. Incognita.
		And, you know, I don't know if I agree with her.
		At least not based on what I've received.
		This lands live that I've received, it's unbelievable.
		It's just unbelievable.
		I don't get this kind of response to things.
		I just don't.
unidentified		Endless reading.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I really agree with the lady who wrote me the first email.
		A lot of it, more than you would imagine, was viewed by the emailers as a positive experience, actually.
		Many more than I would have expected.
		I would have expected the great negative landslide.
		You know, after all, it's an invasion.
		It's a sexual experience not wanted nor solicited.
		So it's viewed as, you know, rape.
		Anyway, I'm far from done with this subject.
		And I guess perhaps I should speak to some of these out-of-body people, shouldn't I?
		Let's look very quickly at what's going on around the world.
		We're going to do some open lines coming up here in a minute.
		Supporters of an anti-American cleric rioted in four Iraqi cities Sunday, battling coalition troops in the worst unrest since the spasm of looting and arson immediately after the fall of Saddam.
		At least 22 Iraqis, eight U.S. troops, and one Salvadoran soldier dead.
unidentified		What are we going to do over there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Despite escalating violence, that's escalating, that killed 10 U.S. service members over the weekend, the Bush administration is sticking with its timetable to turn over power in Iraq.
		The chairman of The Senate Foreign Relations Committee Sunday raised the prospect of extending the Bush administration's June 30th deadline, that's the day we're supposed to turn it over, questioning in his mind, and I suppose we should question, whether the country would be ready for self-rule.
		What do you think, are they?
		It doesn't seem that way.
		The suicide apartment house blast that killed the alleged ringleader of last month's Madrid train bombings and four other terrorist suspects left the core of that terror group either dead or in jail.
		Not a bad resolution when you think about it.
		Hey, the U.S. Department of Energy is planning to give so-called cold fusion, we've talked about that a lot here, another look despite years of controversy over the technology.
		Isn't that nice to hear?
		Finally, they're going to look again.
		James Decker, deputy director of DOE's Office of Science, said the review actually began last fall, I guess quietly, when he met with scientists to discuss the state of cold fusion research.
		Quote, they told me about a lot of research on cold fusion that's been going on and done since the last review that was conducted about 15 years ago.
		And he said, looking at all the facts now, a full new review of cold fusion is warranted.
		So there you go, folks.
		What was once dismissed as just sort of unrepeatable craziness, how Kahn's and Fleshman was at going to Europe to proceed with the research is now going to be looked at more carefully.
		The Department of Energy, ours, now feeling that cold fusion might have a few answers in it.
		Certainly something better have.
		That's reminding me of tonight's topic, The Party Is Over.
unidentified		The Party Is Over Don't you love her badly?
		Don't you need her badly?
		Don't you love her, wait and tell me what you say?
		Don't you love her badly?
		Wanna be her day?
		And don't you love her, faith?
		Don't you love her as she's walking out the door that she did one thousand and before Don't you love her way?
		Tell me what you say Don't you love her as She's walking out the door.
		Are you love?
		Are you love is gone?
		Sing along with the love.
		From the deep of the dream.
		Seven horses sing.
		Keep me on the net All right, it's the weekend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The phone numbers are different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listen very carefully.
unidentified		To talk with Arfell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Arkal from east of the Rockies, call full-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may recharge by calling your in-country print access number, pressing option 5, and dialing full-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the key to the door.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Those are the keys to the door, I guess I ought to say.
unidentified		And in a moment, we will open it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Coming up in the next half hour, it should be a very, very interesting guest, if I can find his information.
		I think, here it is.
		The Party is Over is the name of his book, Oil, War, and the Fate of Industrial Societies.
		That would be us, of course.
		Richard Heinberg, and we all know that at some point, the resource in the ground that we call oil, which, by the way, we're paying a damned pretty penny for right now, the pumps, is apparently an endangered species.
		Let's find out how endangered.
		What Richard sees.
		That's coming up in the next half hour.
		Right now, first time caller line, you are on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello, Mr. Bill.
		That's me.
		Hi, I was wondering if you would consider, sir, a possible answer to the paranormal sexual encounters, this invisible force.
		And it actually was recorded some 3,500 years ago in a document that is probably in everyone's home.
		They're at Genesis chapter 6, verses 1 and 2.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not to read them to me, please, because I paraphrase them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What does it roughly say in there?
unidentified		Well, that the bad angels decided to have sex with the women, and they liked them.
unidentified		And even though the flood came, they were still around, and they still are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you also think then that it's tantamount to an attack?
unidentified		Yes, and the point that your other guest was, Nia, mentioned about being weak, it is very important that we do become Strong so that we can ward off these paranormal spirits, if you may.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, all right, you know, I'm willing to accept that.
		It certainly could be that, it could be an attack.
		What about the large percentage of them, and almost half, I would say, even in responses to me, where they said it was okay?
unidentified		Yes, well, there was genuine attraction.
		The scripture points to the fact that they liked the women.
		So, you know, these were good guys at one time.
		And until they were given the boot, where did they, you know, when they followed the bad leadership, you know, but they were good guys for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
		All right, folks.
		Listen, thank you very much.
unidentified		You're welcome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And take care.
		So, cast down angels, maybe.
		But what about all the rest of it?
		What about the people having out-of-body experiences, either voluntary or involuntary?
		What about those?
		Those are not fallen angels, right?
		So the whole subject could use an awful lot more research, and I sincerely hope that some of my experts in these kinds of areas will allow themselves to do that research.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, Art.
		How are you doing this evening?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing fine, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		This is James.
		I'm calling from New Orleans.
		Yes, sir.
		All right, I have actually two questions.
		One about John Leo, but about what you were just discussing, the paranormal sexual encounters.
		Sure.
		There is a movie out there, and it's still available called The Entity, starring Barbara Hershey.
		I believe it was done in the late 70s or early 80s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've seen it quite a number of times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that boat is very serious, very serious impact.
unidentified		Yeah, it was very creepy, and if you had never seen it, I wanted to throw it at you because it did delve into that subject.
		My question about John Lear and the fabulous guest that you have.
		I love him every time he's on the show.
		He tells him about wheels spinning.
		Well, I always wanted to call in and ask him a question, and maybe you could jot this down, that possibly the experiment with the containers here on Earth.
		I've always believed that maybe it's carbon-based forms, life forms, that they are experimenting with.
		Souls being in carbon-based forms is the experience, is the experiment that he is discussing.
		Hopefully next time he has John later on, you'll remember to mention that if it's a possibility that we don't know souls of existing in any other form except carbon-based life forms, and maybe that's what the experience is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe so, and I would be glad to mention it to him for you.
		Absolutely happy to do so.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good day to you.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Shall we do?
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going once?
unidentified		Come on, you gotta talk or I gotta go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going twice.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Don't let this opportunity slip by.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies called toll-free, 1-800-825-5033.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You gave your last name.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		You're not supposed to do that.
unidentified		That's right.
unidentified		Now, how do you make me?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		You made me hit the beeper.
		Your name is Art.
		Arts don't do stuff like that.
		Not supposed to enter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Art.
unidentified		Where are you?
unidentified		Sodaya, Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You just sat there and waited while I said hello to you, Art.
unidentified		That's all.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, so anyway, what's up, Art?
unidentified		Well, I'm a new ham.
		Oh, you are?
		And I'm 61 years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Congratulations.
unidentified		And so I took my test the day after I turned 61.
		And my call letters are KC0, Q000.
		No, no, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, I think they can look you up on QRZ, and then you have to.
unidentified		Okay, I think that's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No privacy.
		I'm also a ham, by the way.
		As you know, W6OBD, if you're curious.
unidentified		W6.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Old broken back, yes.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you need to write a letter to your congressperson or your senator, because as a new ham, you wouldn't want to hear this.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doesn't sound friendly at all, does it?
unidentified		I personally walked over to my congressman right over here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good for you.
unidentified		A skeleton talked to the office in person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And were they able to absorb what you were telling them?
unidentified		I'm going to go again and bring some more material.
		And, yeah, I...
		Yes.
		I'm trying to, in fact, I hold a net here in Sedellia, Missouri on two meters.
		Nobody was doing it, so I just jumped in there and holding it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good for you, and congratulations on getting your ham license.
		A net, by the way, is sort of a thing where amateur radio operators all sort of check in, and they're held for various purposes.
		Emergency communications.
		We drill, you know, for emergency communications.
		We hold drills.
		And by the way, emergency communications across America is exactly what's threatened by DPL, that horrid little noise you just heard.
		So write to your congressperson, your senator, and urge them to take a wait and see and study this kind of attitude before authorizing it across America.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Art had to give his last name, so we'd know you two apart.
		This is Jeff and Simarangino.
		And I called to talk to you a little bit about antennas, but I want to touch on what Nita brought up.
		You know, spiritually, music and meditation do a similar realm, and Pink Tway for me resonates with the human soul.
		And there's a song called The Great Dig in the Sky with absolutely no words.
		We have a lady's name as Corey that sings that.
		And every time I hear it, it feels like I refer to it as cosmic orgasmic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like the Big Bang.
unidentified		That's it.
		And Nita brought that up.
		And when she said that, I just went, wow, it just connected.
		And if you ever get a chance to play that for maybe some of your bumper music, I think people might get an opportunity who might not have been exposed to Pink Floyd, although that's been around since 73, Dark Side of the Moon.
		They'd be interested in maybe hearing a little bit of that to see how that kind of music might do it for them or whatever type of music.
		I personally like saxophone like you've mentioned and a guitar.
		It seems to touch that chord in the human soul.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Takes me off to a new place.
unidentified		And sometimes it's very essential, the way the music affects me, and I think it does that to a lot of people.
		Sure.
		I want to know how I can get a copy of your new book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't have a new book.
		What do you mean, new book?
		Well, wait a minute.
unidentified		And what you're doing with that, and how you can bring him back to the youth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		What I'm going to do is I'm not going to write a book.
		Thank you very much.
		I've got four of those under my belt.
		Well, I may write another one someday.
		If I do, I'll give you a hint.
		It's going to be about time travel.
unidentified		I'm pretty hot on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But with regard to the antenna, I'm going to put up a website, theoldartbell.com URL I retain.
		And I'm going to put something fairly comprehensive up there as soon as I find the right person to host it for me.
		I don't know anything about HTML.
		I'm fairly computer savvy, actually, but I've never bothered to learn about HTML, and I'm not sure I want to.
		So I'm waiting until I get the right offer, and then I'll put up a website.
		International Line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hi, I'm Betty from Calling from North Carolina.
		Okay.
		I'm not sure that my experience was a paranormal experience, but maybe a magnetic experience.
		It's something personal, not that I necessarily want to say on air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you say magnetic?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do the wild thing at 775-727-1295.
unidentified		My personal pleasure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well I think I've got, And I don't know exactly what we're going to do about that.
		I mean, there are, what she said was very salacious, and there's probably a place for it, but I don't think in this discussion, I really want to keep this discussion on the up and up.
		And I don't know how you do that.
		I really don't, because the proclivity is to get specific, and people are going to do that, and I don't know what to do about it.
		It's a big, important topic, and it's really hard to talk about right now.
		There's a really poisonous atmosphere.
		I mean, in some ways, I understand.
		I'm worried about the American airwaves, both on television and radio, and what's being said and the things that are allowed to be said and all the rest of it.
		But on the other hand, I'm also worried about keeping our airwaves relatively free.
		And it sure is a delicate balance that the regulators try and walk.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		My name's Patrick.
		I've been wanting to get a hold of you for quite a while, actually.
		Okay.
		And there's a, wow, so many things.
		But one thing that's come up since the one big thing is this whole thing with the broadband over the power lines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And I'm not like a conspiracy theorist, but I can see kind of a sinister, possibly, intent with this.
		And it goes like this.
		Theoretically, I'm out here just a little bit west of Portland, Oregon.
		I'm a geological range away.
		I could theoretically get on a ham and talk to you where you are.
		Or maybe somebody in New York State even if conditions are right.
		Yes.
		Okay, well, that's, you know, with the kind of new thought that's very prevalent politically, that might be a threat.
		Why?
		Well, because it's an unfettered and uncontrollable means of communication from coast to coast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
unidentified		Well.
		But the big thing I wanted to call you about is, you know, I've got to admit, when I first started listening to your show years ago, I thought some of these people were kind of wacky, but in the back of my mind, I kept my mind open because of something that was my own personal experience that I've never really talked about.
		But since I was a very young man, I had not really premonitions, but kind of, I don't know, like these salient dreams.
		And they get cues from things that I hear about.
		And then I have these dreams.
		It's not really, I wouldn't say that it's like foretelling something or anything like that, but it's just like little bits and pieces all falling together.
		And I'll hear some information or read something or see something that makes more things come together.
		And there was something that I saw, it's actually on a public broadcasting show that triggered a whole series of those.
		And it has to do with our planet's magnetic field, which the folks at NOAA and the folks at the USGS have been suspecting for years, and there's data to support this, that our field is collapsing.
		And PDS did a special on this guy who's running around right here in Oregon out in the Steens Mountains.
		He's taken geological samples.
		And he's shown that they can look at rocks from specific periods of time and see that this has happened before.
		And when it's happened before, it's pretty much coupled with the run-up of global warming that leads to an ice age.
		And what's gone on in these dreams is that we, for the first time as a species dealing with this anomaly, have within our grasp the ability to kind of set up an artificial field and to stave off the effects of this so it doesn't destroy everything that we've built for the last 15 or 17 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how do we create such a gigantic field?
unidentified		Well, and this goes back to listening to your show.
		Part of it has to do with a lot of this long wave technology and high frequency technologies, the hard stuff, the things that Tesla were working on.
		You had some fellas on the show, I think it was George Had on the show, and They were talking about some kind of coil.
		They were talking from what they were describing about was like a field upon a field within itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably a Tesla coil.
unidentified		No, it wasn't a Tesla coil.
unidentified		They said it was some kind of proprietary thing, and they were selling them for $300 with no guarantee of whether they're going to work or not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
		That's the time travel machine.
		I know exactly what you're talking about.
		I've got one of them in the other room.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And I've never tried it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've come very close, but I never have.
		And it does produce a very large magnetic field, but I can assure you, it wouldn't be anything to replace the Earth's magnetic field if we get in trouble with that.
		If you want to know what would happen, or at least in one great piece of science fiction, I thought it was going to be rather shoddy, but it wasn't.
		It was called The Core, a movie called The Core.
		And, you know, it's got a little bit of the inevitable stuff they put in science fiction, but basically it was pretty cool.
		And if you get a chance to see it, it was out not long ago, called The Core, about what would happen if we lost the Earth's magnetic field.
		It was a very graphic demonstration in there.
		And anyway, you will enjoy the movie.
		East to the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, Eric.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		This is Steve from Ontario, Canada.
		Yes, I'm going to show you another direction that your subject with the sex thing there is going to be taking you in.
		My daughter, twice now, has, this is back like 10, 12 years ago, maybe even a little further, where she's had babies disappear from her womb.
		Once the doctor thought she had a miscarriage.
		Another time, the doctor said that everything was there.
		The baby was there and everything.
		And the next time she went back, everything was there except the baby.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And this has happened.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		You know, I've heard of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've had other people tell this tale.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And you're right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That'll open another flood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's all kinds of things associated with this topic that are really strange.
unidentified		Oh, it certainly will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it's something that people tend not to talk about or want to talk about for obvious reasons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, we're a fairly prudish society in America.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		We really are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so this isn't talked about, but I'm telling you, this is big stuff.
unidentified		Well, we've had some strange things go on for many, many years in our family.
		I mean, I could be a subject on your show, believe me.
		Things that have really been strange since, like, way back in the 70s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the world is just full of this.
		The paranormal is all around us.
		It's like a man who called a little while ago.
		And he said, you know, when I first began to listen to the show, I thought there were some certifiable, nutty people on there.
		And we do have some.
		But there's an awful lot of things that sound on the surface crazy when people tell them.
		The trouble is, like that man, I too have had several experiences that it's not a guessing game with me.
		I know the paranormal is real.
		I know that we have many abilities in our living brains that we don't know how to control, we don't know how to initiate, and we certainly don't know how to repeat, or it wouldn't be called the paranormal.
		If it was repeatable, we would call it science.
		And maybe we're approaching that day, too.
		Anyway, when we get back, the party's over.
		The oil party is over.
		From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		I'm going to be here for you.
		Want a time travel?
		Go back to Past Joe's on Streamlink.
		Sign up online at coasttocoastam.com.
		What a life you never can but a dirty promise you ever win again.
		It's a judgment, it's a judgment It's a judgment Inside of the sand, the sound of a touch of the sun pink inside the beams of cheap.
		The sight of a touch or the scent of the sand, or the strength of an earth leaves deep in the ground.
		Some unloading flowers to be covered and then to burst up to tarmac to the sun again.
		Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, To lie in a meadow and hear the grass sing, How the world are you things in our memories, From the useless to the colorful new time.
		Yeah!
		I, I'm not a door, take this money, I'm not a friend, you're so old me.
		I, I'm not a hero, I'm not a hero, I'm not a hero, I'm not a hero.
		Wanna take a ride?
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ARC by calling your in-country spring access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		It certainly is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard Heinberg is the author of The Party's Over, Oil, War, and the Fate of Industrial Societies and the forthcoming Power Down, Options and Actions for a Post-Carbon World.
		He is a journalist, Educator, editor, lecturer, and a core faculty member of New College of California, where he teaches courses on energy and society and culture, ecology, and sustainable community.
		His monthly newsletter, that's with an Muse as in using, was nominated in 1994 by, I guess it's UTME Reader for an alternative press award has been included in Utme's annual list.
		I hope contain that right of best alternative newsletters.
		His essays and articles have appeared in many journals, including The Futurist, Earth Island Journal, Wild Matters, Alternative Press Review, and The Sun.
		So in a moment, we'll discuss the party.
		The party being over.
unidentified		The party being over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, welcome to the program.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Good to be speaking with you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very nice to have you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you located?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I'm in Santa Rosa, California, which is about an hour north of San Francisco.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's up in Keasaro Country.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, your book is The Party's Over, and I guess you ought to define what you mean by party.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, the party I'm talking about is basically the last 100, 150 years of cheap energy that has fueled the Industrial Revolution that we're still living in.
		We have created the most opulent and fast-paced society in the history of the world by far.
		And it's all because of cheap energy resources, primarily oil.
		We started using coal before that, first in Britain and then elsewhere.
		But it's really when we started using oil as a primary energy source that the Industrial Revolution really got jump-started.
		And of course we found ways of using this cheap energy, cars, planes, and cell phones, and computers, on and on.
		And we've transformed everything about our way of life, how we live, where we live, what we eat.
		It's all, and this is really true of everyone who's alive now.
		I mean, occasionally I meet someone who's old enough to remember the first car in their town.
		But for the rest of us, you know, this is what we think of as normal existence.
		And yet from any kind of historical, cross-cultural perspective, it's far from being normal.
		It's an extraordinary moment in time.
		And what I'm saying in my book is that this party is likely to come to an end in the century that's now begun.
		And we'll see the beginning of the end probably within just the next few years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I go to a gas station now, and I think I'm seeing the beginning of the end.
		You know, the oil gas prices are certainly on the way up, Richard.
		I'd say we're going to hit $3 a gallon in California this summer.
		That's sort of a bet with myself.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think you're probably right.
		Now, there are a lot of reasons for this short-term increase in gas prices.
		One is just that the U.S. only has so many oil refineries, and they're all working at just about full capacity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Without new ones being built, for example, in California in a long time, right?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Well, we haven't really built any in the country in a couple of decades.
		And then there's the matter of OPEC cutting production.
		And then there's the problem just of tight supplies generally globally.
		We seem to be bumping up against some pretty serious resource constraints as far as oil production is concerned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I also heard recently, Richard, that we're filling our oil reserve, meaning we're taking some of the oil that would normally come in and be available off the market, right?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right, the strategic national reserve.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And of course, that's a political decision and may or may not be a good one, but it's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, how much oil do we have in reserve?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When everything's full and we have our reserve full, how much is that?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I don't have that figure.
		Well, I didn't mean in gallons so much, but I mean, is it a month's worth?
		Six months' worth?
		It's between one and two months' worth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One and two months' worth.
		Interesting.
		There's a great deal of controversy, Richard, about when we're going to run out of oil or effectively run out of oil, when it's going to become so expensive that we're essentially out at that point.
		Why so much controversy about it, and what do you think the answer is?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, the controversy is for a number of reasons.
		And actually, since we have a fair amount of time this evening, I think we can look at this from a number of different angles.
		But basically, it's a controversy between people who look at the total resource base and then assume that we can produce that oil, or extract it really, is what we're talking about, at any arbitrary rate.
		And say we have a trillion barrels of oil in the ground, which probably isn't that far off, and we're using it at the rate of about 75 million barrels a day.
		Well, at that rate, we should have plenty of oil for at least 50 years.
		But the problem is, and this is where the other side of the debate comes in, it really isn't likely to be possible to extract that oil at any arbitrary rate.
		There are geological factors that will limit the rate of production in the future.
		You know, we tend to think about oil using the metaphor that's most familiar to us, which is the gas tank in our car.
		And, you know, when you fill up the gas tank, the car runs fine.
		When you're down to a quarter of a tank, the car still runs fine.
		It's only when you actually run out that you notice a problem.
		Well, we're not going to run out of oil in the sense of using the last drop for decades and decades, maybe centuries, maybe never.
		But the problem is that we're likely to come to a point where it becomes impossible to continue increasing production.
		And in fact, oil production will peak and start to go downhill regardless of the amount of effort we put into the project or how much investment we make in the process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you bring exactly when that will occur?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are, as you can imagine, many, many scientists who are working on this question, literally dozens of petroleum geologists and petroleum economists and physicists and so on.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And the emerging consensus seems to be that a global peak in oil production is likely sometime between about 2006 or 2007 at the earliest and something like 2016 or 2020 at the latest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty soon.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, definitely within the short-term planning parameters of all of us who are alive right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As much as we groan about the price of gasoline in America right now, certainly Europe, Canada, other parts of the world have it, most of them, much worse than we do.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Much more expensive.
		And so I'm not certain why ours is so inexpensive relatively.
		I guess we don't tax it as heavily as other countries do, or would that be the main reason?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, taxes are a big part of it.
		But there's also the matter of the pricing of oil exports.
		Most oil that is sold on the international market is sold for U.S. dollars.
		And this really goes back to the mid-1970s after the first oil shock when the U.S. made a deal with its good friend Saudi Arabia to price all of its oil exports in U.S. dollars.
		And that rule was soon spread to the rest of OPEC.
		And what that means is that effectively the U.S. pays less for its oil.
		Actually, in effect, it pays less for almost all of its imports because other countries have to get U.S. dollars to pay for their oil.
		And how do they get U.S. dollars?
		Well, the U.S. has a monopoly on those things.
		And so countries have to either take out loans denominated in U.S. dollars or sell their products to the U.S. And, of course, they'll be motivated to do so because they need to pay their energy bills, so they'll likely sell low.
		Or they'll drive their currencies down in value deliberately in order to be able to earn export capital to afford the oil imports.
		So this has been a strategy of Japan, for example, which has kept its yen very low in value for a long time, which keeps those Toyotas and Hondas affordable for Americans and allows the Japanese to pay their energy bills.
		The Japanese don't have any indigenous oil or natural gas reserves.
		But the fact that other currencies are artificially kept low then keeps the dollar more valuable, which means that it's cheaper for us to buy oil.
		Now what's happening right now, one of the reasons gasoline is so expensive, is that the U.S. dollar is falling in value, primarily because the U.S. has such a tremendous debt, exactly, that other countries are less willing to invest in U.S. dollar-denominated investments.
		And so as the dollar falls in value, gas gets more expensive because we have to import almost 60% of it, of the oil that we use.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's actually been a pretty serious matter recently.
		You know, I typically buy electronic ham radio pieces of gear that come from Japan.
		And what was, you know, it's like $100 or $200 difference lately in the price, and all that's due to the currency changes.
		So you're absolutely right about that.
		That's a big deal.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I think it's likely to continue.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I don't think the dollar has hit bottom yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the peak comes soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then what?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, after that point, there will be less oil available.
		And that means because population is continuing to grow and demand for oil is continuing to grow, therefore there's going to be more and more competition for what's left.
		And I think the...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When we talk about the peak, what are we talking about?
		Do you mean the amount of oil that we can pump out of the ground?
		Do you mean the amount of oil that we can refine into gasoline?
		Or what part of this is peaking?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, the important peak is the peak in what we can get out of the ground.
unidentified		Okay, right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		We can always build more refineries.
		You can't build them overnight.
		Obviously, it takes months and months and a lot of investment, but that's doable.
		But when the peak in global oil production arrives, nothing we can do, no amount of investment will change that.
		We'll be on the downhill side.
		And we know this is going to happen because it's already happened in country after country.
		The United States is the best example of that.
		The U.S. is where the oil industry started back in 1859 with the first commercial oil well in Pennsylvania.
		And for decades, the U.S. was the world's foremost oil-producing nation.
		In fact, we were the world's foremost oil-exporting nation.
		We were the Saudi Arabia of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
		The U.S. became the most mature oil-producing province in the world, which means there were more oil wells drilled in the U.S. than in the rest of the world put together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, here's something that you can clarify for me.
		Right you are on all of that.
		But then we started capping a lot of wells, and here too is a great deal of controversy.
		I've heard it said that we have capped a lot of wells, and perhaps wisely so, in that we are now using up the rest of the world's oil, the Middle East oil, the oil coming from wherever, and that if necessary, it's like a sort of a strategic reserve that's still in the ground.
		Is there anything to that?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, there may be some truth to that, but basically the U.S. is past its production peak and will never produce oil again at anywhere near the rate that it was doing in the 1960s.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		So then what are you saying?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We virtually sucked all the viable oil out of our ground?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, basically that's true.
unidentified		Oh.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And this happened in the U.S. oil peak happened in 1970, 71, and U.S. production now is about the same level as it was in the 1940s.
		And since then, country after country has followed suit.
		So out of about 44 principal oil-producing countries in the world, about 24 of them have experienced similar oil production peaks, and their oil production is headed downward, and there's virtually nothing that can bring it back up to former levels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's something to consider, isn't it?
		That's sort of sad.
		We could go back and we could get some oil, but it would, I take it, be nowhere near our needs.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		The U.S. is from now on, the only way the U.S. can cease to be dependent on oil imports is simply to cease using so much oil.
unidentified		Huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By chance.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, ultimately, I think that's what will happen.
		Well, ultimately, that certainly is what will happen.
		But whether it's by choice or by necessity, that's the real question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When the oil runs out, essentially, what happens to the United States?
		I mean, when you look ahead as a futurist and you see us beginning to run out of oil, do we make some magical change?
		Is there anything in the wind?
		Or are we just going to run out of oil?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's no energy source on the horizon that will permit a simple and easy transition to running our cars, our 150 million cars on something else other than petroleum.
		So we're in for a major change in our way of life.
		I don't think there's any way around that.
		People talk about hydrogen cars, for example, but there are no hydrogen reserves anywhere.
		You have to make hydrogen from something else.
		And right now, virtually all commercially produced hydrogen is made from fossil fuels, from natural gas or oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something the hydrogen people don't talk a lot about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do hear talk of using alternative methods like the sun and wind power and so forth.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		But that's a very expensive way of making hydrogen.
		And while I'm all in favor of solar and wind, I think actually we'd be better off spending our R ⁇ D money directly on solar and wind rather than spending it on hydrogen development because we just don't have that much energy from solar and wind right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I believe our president just recently made a speech in which he committed the United States to the hydrogen path.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he not?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he did.
		Yes, and our governator here in California has made similar noises.
		But I think they do these things without ever talking to a single engineer because the reality of hydrogen is that it will be useful in niche applications.
		I'm not saying that hydrogen will have no uses whatsoever in our future energy mix, but the idea that we can simply and easily transition to a hydrogen economy, I'm afraid, is so much hot air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hot air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you see the future in solar and wind and other methods or what?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but it's going to be a very different future.
		You know, we're using only about twice as much renewable energy in the U.S. economy today as we were using in 1850.
		There's a lot of reasons for that.
		Meanwhile, non-renewable energy has soared.
		It's skyrocketed.
		We're using hundreds of times as much now as we were in 1850.
		And the reason for that is that non-renewable energy resources like oil and natural gas and coal are kind of like winning the lottery or having a rich uncle that dies and leaves you a fortune.
		You can spend that at any arbitrary rate you want.
		And you can buy a penthouse and a fleet of Rolls-Royces, but sooner or later that's going to run out unless you have some other way of replenishing the bank account.
		Whereas renewable fuels are kind of like working for a living.
		You have a job and you have a budget and you have to live within that budget or you run into trouble.
		Nature can only supply us with so much energy on an ongoing basis.
		Now it's true we could increase the energy we're harvesting through photovoltaics or wind power considerably over what we're doing now, but it's never going to be the kind of windfall that we've enjoyed over the Industrial Revolution with fossil fuels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there, and we'll take a break.
		Richard Heinberg is my guest.
		His book, You Really Want to Take a Look at This Home Party's Over, Oil, War, and the Fate of Industrial Societies.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That would be us.
unidentified		That would be us.
		That would never really work.
		When all the past we did is we think too hard to find.
		I tried to wait for you, but you have grown up to mine.
		Whatever happened to our love, I wish I understood.
		Did you feel safe alive?
		Did you feel safe?
		Did you know when you hear me darling?
		Did you hear me?
		It's the way.
		How long you gave me nothing that you saved me?
		It's the way.
		When you're gone, how can I?
		You've got to go on.
		When you're gone, you're my god.
		How can I?
		You're my god.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From West to the Rockies, call Art at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing Option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This song kind of works, doesn't it?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		When you're gone, I don't know what I'll do, SOS.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that would be oil.
		Yeah, indeed, how can I go on at all?
		And maybe that's what we're going to be talking about before the night's over.
		Because the party's over.
		Once again, Richard Heinberg, welcome back, Richard.
		It's a pretty sobering thing for an awful lot of Americans because, of course, America completely depends on its oil.
		Everything runs on oil.
		We go to work on oil, the factories, oh gosh, everything runs on oil.
		So this is not a minor matter.
		This is our future as a nation that we're talking about.
		And I presume you understood that gravity when you wrote this book, right?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		Yeah, we get about 40% of our total energy from oil.
		But when you break that down, that's responsible for about 97% of our transportation energy.
		And what's even more troubling is that agriculture is heavily reliant on oil and other fossil fuels.
		So, you know, it's possible to imagine maybe driving a few fewer miles, but when it comes to food, we're talking about something really serious.
		All right, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So your book, how has it been received?
		Who reads it?
		What kind of feedback do you get?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I've generally gotten excellent feedback on it, and I was very gratified to say that I get phone calls and emails quite regularly from engineers and petroleum geologists who are saying, well, you know, this is stuff that we've known for some time, and we talk about it amongst ourselves, but we've never really been allowed to come out in public and say these things, and good for you for doing that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's see if I can get you in some trouble here, and I assure you I can.
		What do you, I mean, we're involved now in this horrid thing in Iraq, which, I don't know, when we went into Iraq, we said it was because we thought they had weapons of mass destruction.
		Now it turns out that intelligence was flawed, according to our Secretary of State.
		That isn't why we went.
		My suspicion is that you imagine we went because of oil, Richard.
		Is that right?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, there's almost nothing that happens in the Middle East that doesn't have something to do with oil.
		We've spent, what is it, over $150 billion so far with this war in invasion of Iraq.
		And I can't imagine the U.S. spending that kind of financial capital and also human capital on something that wasn't absolutely essential to our national interest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I notice that we say we're doing this for the people of Iraq, so they might have freedom, and then we're protecting their oil assets, and we're doing that for them as well.
		Now, other people make the argument that we are dying in Iraq, and we are.
		Our men and women are dying in Iraq.
		And you know, I'm with you.
		I think it's all about oil, but we keep saying it's their oil.
		Do we really mean that, Richard?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, in a sense, but you see, Iraq has immense foreign debts to repay, something in the order of $150 to $300 billion.
		And so much of that oil revenue, and really Iraqi oil production is still pretty low.
		It's just barely gotten up to pre-war levels, if that.
		So most of that revenue is going to repay Iraqi debts, which are becoming ever steeper because, of course, we're helping them out by rebuilding the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've even heard we've talked of forgiving the debt and having international meetings For others to forgive the debt so they might get back on their feet.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, I think that would be a good step.
		But meanwhile, most of the rebuilding that's going on is being done by American corporations like Halliburton and Bechtel.
		That's right.
		In fact, I think the Iraqis themselves would be quite capable of rebuilding their country.
		After all, they've done so before after the Iraq-Iran war in the 1980s.
		They had to do a great deal of rebuilding.
		And then in 1991 on.
		So in fact, I think a lot of this money from Iraqi oil sales and also money from the U.S. defense budget is basically being filtered back into the U.S. economy via a number of corporations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we going to take their oil?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not that simple.
		I think that would be an extraordinary situation.
		What we're doing is building super bases in Iraq that are permanent bases, even after control of the country is ceded to the US.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to be there.
		We're still on Okinawa.
		We're in Japan.
		The other places that we've had big fights with.
		We are going to maintain bases there for the US.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		But of course, we have 17 new bases in Central Asia as well, surrounding the Caspian Sea, which is another major oil-producing region.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, almost every U.S. president in my memory, and it's a pretty good long one now, has reiterated the fact that the United States would be willing to go to war to keep the Straits of Hermoz open and the oil flowing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when they say go to war, they mean nuclear war, if necessary.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		This is the Carter doctrine.
		So this is a bipartisan kind of policy.
		It's not just the current administration's policy.
		This goes back at least to the 1970s when it became apparent that U.S. oil production had peaked, the U.S. would be ever more dependent on foreign oil, and that oil could be used as a weapon.
		After 1973 and the Arab oil embargo, it became clear that the U.S. was vulnerable to the oil weapon.
		And so this has been really the centerpiece of American geostrategic policy ever since.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oil company executives, energy consultants, aren't stupid.
		Right.
		If what you say is true, then why aren't they making other plans?
		If they see the party ending, then surely they want to be in on the beginning of whatever is going to come after to keep that old product rolling in.
unidentified		Right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, the oil companies are beginning to invest in renewable energies, solar, and primarily and also wind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How heavily, Richard?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, not very heavily, I have to say.
		I mean, Shell, for example, is a major solar PV producer now.
		Also, the industry is starting to sort of leak out the message that the oil peak is approaching.
		For example, John Thompson, who's vice president of ExxonMobil Exploration Company, has basically said that by 2015, we'll need to find, develop, and produce a volume of new oil and gas that's equal to eight out of every 10 barrels being produced today, and that's going to cost a lot more than the oil that's being produced now.
		For people in the industry, you know, it's a coded message basically saying we're in trouble.
		So the message is leaking out, but fundamentally, I think they realize that what oil is left is going to be that much more expensive.
		I think the oil-producing countries see that too, and that's one of the reasons that OPEC is willing to sit on its oil, reduce production, and wait till prices go higher.
		They weren't doing that back in the 90s.
		They were producing full bore.
		But now I think they see that the peak of production is within sight, and that oil is worth more in the ground than it is if they just pump it cheaply.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Worth more?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so predict for me in another 10, 20 years, foreseeable for most of us, what kind of gas prices, pump prices, do you think we could expect?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I refuse to make those kinds of predictions for a number of reasons.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		First of all, we're talking about dollars that could have any arbitrary value at some future time as a result of inflation or deflation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Taking in mind, all right, I'll make it even harder for you, then taking in mind the normal economic cycles that history has presented us with and then projecting 10 or 20 years, surely you can come up with some kind of guesstimate.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, certainly within 20 years we'll be seeing oil prices astronomically higher than they are today.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		The equivalent of $100 a barrel oil is certainly likely before 2020, perhaps.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's say a barrel of oil costs $100.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would that make the pump price?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, for gasoline, I think in this country we're likely to see, as you said earlier, $3 by the end of the summer.
		But then for the next three or four years, we may see some leveling off of prices.
		And it's only after we've actually passed the peak that we're likely to see gas prices then double and triple.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you say past the peak, we've been a long time in coming to the peak.
		So how much of a long downhill slide is there?
		And when does past the peak begin to have real meaning?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, it's hard to say because it's possible that there would be an actual panic following the peak with the general realization, you know, that the era of cheap energy is over and what's left is limited supply and therefore whoever gets there first effectively owns the pile.
		So there could be considerable competition for supplies at that point, including international competition between consuming nations, the U.S. and I think China is the most likely candidate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh yes.
		The amount of industry going on in China right now is frightening, Richard.
		I've seen it with my own eyes.
		It is frightening.
		They're going to begin consuming enormous amounts of oil.
		Now, doesn't it all come down, I mean, Iraq's one thing, that's a war.
		But isn't it likely before all is said and done, the world will be at war over this?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, that's the path that we're on right now.
		I think the only way to avoid that outcome would be to have some very effective international agreements for cooperation and allocation of the remaining resources.
		And that's going to be a very difficult thing to do.
		And I think it can only happen if the U.S. and China are both on board.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we can't even get on board with a Kyoto Treaty.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So on board isn't happening a lot.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, as I said, that's not the direction we're going right now.
		The way we're going right now is what I call last one standing strategy.
		In other words, whoever has the most weapons and is willing to compete the most fiercely will theoretically win the day.
		Now, it's hard to say what the outcome of that will be, but I don't think it's likely to be very pretty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		Do you think there's any chance that between now and then we will come up with some alternative, a source of energy that either is not so dangerous that it kills us?
		I looked at some photos of Chernobyl the other day that stood the hair up on the back of my neck, or that we'll come up with something that won't kill us and that we can cheaply or reasonably at least produce and keep the world going.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a number of possible candidates.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		My research so far has not supported the likelihood of any of them being able to take over from oil in a way that would permit our economy to continue at its current pace and continue to expand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you truly researched this?
		And by that I mean they're now having big get-togethers where people with claims and even machines that they claim are over unity and they make all kinds of claims, but nothing that I've seen truly yet.
		And I sense you're in about the same place.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've been interested in the free energy or over unity or a zero-point energy debate for probably 20 years or so.
		I have a big file in my filing cabinet on the subject.
		And I'm sympathetic to the claims, but I've been waiting a long time to see something practical.
		And so far, you can't go into a store and buy even a wristwatch that's powered by one of these exotic energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I usually say just bring me a toy, anything that demonstrates it, and it never gets here.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And then there's the problem of bringing a potential energy source up to the point of actually supplying 100 quadrillion BTUs of energy, which is what the U.S. uses on a yearly basis, which is just an immense amount of energy.
		And that requires building a huge amount of infrastructure.
		You just can't do that in a couple of years.
		It will take literally decades to replace our present energy infrastructure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And perhaps you've looked at this aspect as well.
		As long as I've been alive, there have been claims of carburetors and claims of lots of other things.
		But the end of all those stories is always the government rushes in, the inventor disappears, and or the patent is bought out by a large oil company and put up on the shelf.
		And they've got lots of this kind of stuff waiting for the day when the oil really runs out.
		But it's all been secretly suppressed.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		You buy into that.
		Well, you know, there may be some truth to some of these stories, but my sense of it is that most of them are in the category of urban legend.
		One of the reasons I say that is the story of the patents being bought up by the oil companies just smells really fishy to me because I've been to the U.S. Patent Office to research patents.
		And really patents are not a way of keeping something secret.
		They're a way of publicizing inventions.
		So if anything has been patented at any time in history, you can find that patent and read about it.
		And so it's literally impossible for a patented device to be completely suppressed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Although secrets have been held, so it could be there's a secret by some energy company out there that it might be in their interest, since you pointed out yourself that even if we had such a source to actually get it out there and market it, you know, if you need a million new equivalent to gas stations or whatever, we're not ready for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so wouldn't the propensity on the part of the large energy companies be to hold it and wait until it was financially the right atmosphere?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps so.
		Again, we're talking in the realm of theory and rumor here.
		And meanwhile, our lives hinge on something that's very real and tangible, which is oil in the ground.
		And that seems to be going away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Where is most of the oil?
		Is it the Middle East?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, the Middle East, on paper, has over 60% of it.
		Now, I say on paper Because what is officially reported by the OPEC countries, particularly the Middle East, is a matter of some controversy.
		Back in the 1980s, they changed their policies of reporting so that countries could base their export on what they said they had in the ground on their reported reserves.
		So it was in their interests to report larger reserves so that they could export more and earn more income.
		So within a couple of years of this change in the rules, all of these Arab oil exporting countries reported reserve increases on the order of 50 to 100 percent.
		Oh, that's cooking the book.
		That's cooking the book.
		There's no evidence that they were actually finding much new oil during that period.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh my God.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		So they say that Saudi Arabia has 256 billion barrels of proven oil.
		Well, that's what they're reporting.
		Now, what they actually have in the ground may be another story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, brother.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so we base policy on those numbers?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right, because those are the only numbers they have.
		Actual reserves are closely held secrets.
		Ah, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold tight, Richard.
		We'll be right back.
		There's going to be some fighting over this, all right.
		and maybe sooner rather than later.
unidentified		Music
		Music
		The white burnings of the Anastasia trees, with the dying leaves, turning the walls.
		But the white church of the Anastasia trees, with the dying leaves, turning the walls.
		I'm going to go.
		Wait for the sky, or she will die.
		Wait for the sky, or she will die.
		The sun that comes, the sun that goes.
		The sky is the light, where it's in the snow.
		The end of the night, you always know.
		And she will die.
		To target with Art Bell from the wildcard line, area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To target with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may recharge by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		And I wonder if I were to tell Richard that I'm really just drooling over that latest SUV out there.
		Those very popular, very large, very consumptive United States SUVs.
		Those great big tanks and vehicles that all of you love so much.
unidentified		And I was thinking of buying one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder what Richard would advise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, we'll find out in a moment.
unidentified		Ah!
unidentified		music
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, here's our expert on oil, Richard Heinberg.
		He's written a book about it called The Party's Over, Oil, War, and the Fate of Industrial Societies.
		In this particular industrial society, Richard, although I don't drool over SUVs, I mostly, 90% of the time, drive around a little geometro, to be honest with you.
		But a lot of Americans right now are real hung up on these tanks, these great big vehicles, SUVs.
		Would you say that from your point of view, it would be a wise investment to buy one of those now or not such a good idea?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think if you could wait a few years, you'll probably be able to buy a used one really cheap, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what I was wondering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can recall the 70s oil crisis, and an awful lot of really big American cars went on the market for a very small amount of money, and we all fell in love with small Japanese cars, and that happened until the oil came back.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're telling me same things will happen again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only this time there's not going to be any oil coming back.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right, yeah.
		This time it's for Keats.
		And yeah, I do think something similar will happen.
		And it's really sad that we've come to this point because this has all been a matter of policy.
		The U.S. could have a much better fleet fuel efficiency.
		And the SUVs are popular partly because of a huge tax break that is given to small business owners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, and to be honest, there's safety.
		I mean, you know, they've got a lot of metal there.
		They're safer.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		They are, I guess.
		Well, actually, the statistics don't always bear that out.
		They're particularly unsafe if you happen to be in a car that's up against one of them.
unidentified		Well, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In my little geo, if I had an SUV, I'm toast.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And also, some of them do tend to roll over more easily than regular cars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But isn't that where most of the energy is going?
		It's going into our cars.
		In fact, there's a question.
		What percentage of our energy or oil goes into Continuing to keep the wheels rolling.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a very high percentage of our petroleum usage goes to personal cars.
		And this is something that, again, sadly, we could be doing much better with.
		The hybrids, of course, Japanese hybrids get much better gas mileage.
		And the U.S. car companies had the opportunity to develop hybrid technology at the same time as the Japanese companies and refused to do so.
		Also, there are alternative fuel vehicles.
		I personally drive a 25-year-old Mercedes diesel that I run with modified vegetable oil, apparently called biodiesel.
		So you go down the road smelling like French fries.
		Yeah, something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard of these things.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		It does work, then.
		Oh, yeah, absolutely.
		And I didn't have to modify the car at all.
		It's a little more expensive than petroleum diesel, but it's great stuff to work with.
		If you get it on your hands or clothes, it washes right out.
		It doesn't smell nasty like petroleum diesel.
		And of course, it's not a solution for our national addiction to petroleum because we just can't manufacture that much biodiesel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a solution?
		I mean, I hear talk of what?
		You can grow fuel in the ground, right?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, ethanol, yes.
		But the problem is that if we were to try to run all of our cars on ethanol or biodiesel, we would need more farmland than we have.
		And most of that farmland is already being taken up growing food.
		And so, well, here's another problem.
		Globally, per capita grain production has peaked within the last five years.
		In other words, the last five years, year on year, we're producing less food per capita than the year previously.
		So we need all of that arable land just to support our current population.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we're reaching peak productivity out of the ground, peak productivity out of oil, at a time when we're adding people on the planet at a scary rate.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		We passed $6 billion in 1998.
		And just since 1998, we've added about 400 million, just shy of 400 million.
		And that's not far from the population of North America.
		So we've added basically another North America just since 1998.
		But of course, I'm sure we haven't added the support infrastructure of North America or the resources equivalent to North America.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You know, I've done a few things.
		I mean, I do drive the metros.
		I became energy self-sufficient, Richard, by putting up a lot of solar panels and wind generators and that kind of thing.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good for me.
		But here's the problem.
		It's not economically feasible.
		I did it, but you know what?
		I just blew the money because I wanted to do it and I wanted to see if I could become independent.
		But it cost me a hell of a lot of money, Richard, and I'm not going to recover that for a long, long time.
		So it's not...
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Or even economically advantageous for them to do it?
		Well, unfortunately, I don't think market mechanisms are going to kick in soon enough to enable that to happen.
		I have solar panels in my house, too.
		Then you know.
		And I know, yeah, it cost us $10,000.
		Fortunately, the state of California paid for half of that.
		But we use about one-fifth the amount of electricity of the average California household.
		So you can imagine how much that would cost for the average family with five TV sets and so on.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I do have a lot of TVs and I do have a lot of electronics.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		The first thing we have to do if we're going to make this energy transition is reduce our energy usage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And a lot of that can be done through efficiency, relatively painlessly.
		We did this in the 1970s.
		You know, highway speed limits went down from 75 miles an hour to 55 miles an hour.
		We bought smaller cars.
		We insulated our homes better.
		And there's a lot more that we can do.
		We could transition from incandescent lights to compact fluorescence and LED lights.
		A lot of people are already doing that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I am doing that.
unidentified		Yeah.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you have photovoltaic electricity, you're motivated to reduce your usage because TV electricity is expensive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and I was, in fact, I swapped out the bulbs in this room, and it is just amazing, Richard.
		The old 60-watt bulbs that I had on the ceiling fixture here in my room would become so hot that you could not touch them.
		The new ones that I put in will last, I don't know, six times longer.
		They burn just as bright, and you can hold your hand on them.
		They're so cool.
		And they're using approximately one-fifth.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's one-fifth the energy.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		It's absolutely astounding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what I've always wondered is, maybe you're in a position to tell me, if America converted and took out all the old damn light bulbs, put in all new ones, got a car that didn't use quite so much gasoline per mile, all the rest of it, if we clamp down, how much difference would it make?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, the actual figure is controversial.
		Probably we could reduce our total energy usage by half at least, and relatively painlessly.
		And I think that's what we will be doing over the next 20 years or so for very good economic reasons.
		Ultimately, depletion is going to catch up with us, however, one way or the other.
		And even efforts at efficiency are not going to keep the wolf away from the door forever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hate to keep dragging you into politics, but it's inevitable.
		Jimmy Tarter, like a Merhatum, had a lot of at least pretty good ideas about the future of America and what we would have to do to be part of that future.
		But, you know, presidents we've had, we've got ourselves an oil president right now.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Love Merhatum.
		He's an oil president.
		And we need some political change or none of this is going to happen.
		Not really, is it?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Frankly, I don't see this kind of political change happening until we are faced with another oil shock.
		A crisis.
		Yeah, a crisis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We won't do anything in America until we have a crisis.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, Americans have been told that their way of life is non-negotiable.
		And I think most of us like to hear that.
		We like to think that the way we're living now is normal and that we deserve it because we're Americans.
		And I don't think we're likely to change our collective mind until we have to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Until we have to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How soon is the have-to part likely to occur?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, with oil, as I was saying, probably within the next two to ten years.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		With natural gas, possibly much sooner than that.
unidentified		Really?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, natural gas is our second most important energy source.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		We get about 40% of our total energy from oil and about 25% from natural gas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And natural gas, has it already peaked?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		In North America, it has.
		Now, in the rest of the world, there's still a lot of natural gas.
		But in North America, production is going downhill.
		That's true of Canada, U.S., and Mexico.
		And natural gas is different from oil in that while it is possible to transport it around the world in ships, it's very expensive to do so, and there aren't that many liquid natural gas tankers.
		And most of the available international supply is already spoken for by countries like Japan and South Korea.
		So as our natural gas production goes south, as it were, it's unlikely that we'll be able to make up for that just by importing natural gas by LNG tanker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, since the Pacific Plowers B are not going to push us in this direction for a while yet, you know, you've got the ear of an awful lot of people right now, Richard.
		Let's talk about practical, real-world, okay, folks, here is some individual recommendations for you that will not only save the nation oil, but maybe more importantly, your own power bill will go way down or you won't pay as much for gasoline.
		What are the recommendations to an individual?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		What I would say is do an energy audit of your life.
		I mean, how much energy are you using in transportation for electricity and what's that electricity going for?
		And then what do you actually need?
		Most people are able to reduce their energy usage by half, fairly painlessly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have done that, haven't you?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've done it, and so I know for a fact that others can do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How austere a life are you leading?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't say I'm living an austere life at all.
		I still drive, although I live within walking distance of where I work, and I walk whenever I can.
		And, you know, we have two computers in the house and a TV set that we occasionally use for watching old movies.
		And we enjoy our life.
		Now, one thing we do is we grow a fair amount of our own food.
		My wife and I live in a suburban neighborhood, but we've converted the backyard that we have to food production.
		We have fruit and nut trees, a vegetable garden, and I think this is a good recommendation for anybody who can possibly do this.
		Start growing as much of your food as you can, because right now the average food item on an American's plate has traveled 1,300 miles to get there, and those are 1,300 fossil fuel miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good point.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Food is going to become a lot more expensive over the next few years.
		That's not only because of oil, but also natural gas, because natural gas is the main feedstock for inorganic fertilizers.
		Fertilizer is getting more expensive.
		Instead of producing all of it here in the U.S., we're starting to import more of it because the natural gas is becoming so much more expensive.
		So food is going to be absorbing all of those extra costs for transportation and for fertilizer and pesticide and herbicide feedstocks.
		So the short solution to that is eat more locally and grow as much as you can yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Life will be, as energy begins to become very expensive, that's going to change life.
		It's going to change our economy.
		I mean, do you foresee, for example, you're not an economist, but do you see us going into another depression or something as serious as that over it seems to me if anything could cause a depression, it would be this.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, I think that's very likely.
		Historically, high energy prices have correlated very strongly with economic recessions.
		And we're looking at the mother of all oil shocks coming our way.
		And further, our whole modern economic system is based on the idea of endless growth.
		Economic theory and the whole market economy have all grown up within the last 500 years of continuous growth of population and growth in availability of energy resources.
		When those trends change, when global population levels off and starts to decline for whatever reason, it certainly will within this century, and when available energy per capita and total available energy begin to decline, then the basis will no longer be present for conventional economic growth.
		And we'll really need a different kind of economics at that point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think will actually, I mean, you allude to the fact that a population will level off and then begin to decline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And rather shortly, from your point of view, what's going to do all that?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, either we will undertake measures to flatten population increase and then gradually over time reduce population levels, and I don't mean killing people off, I mean reducing reproduction.
		Either we will do it voluntarily or nature will do it for us by the usual means of famine, war, and pestilence.
		Again, we've been living in an extraordinary period of time, historically speaking, in the last century or so, particularly those of us in North America.
		We've never seen a real famine in North America.
		But you go back even three or four centuries in Europe, even the wealthiest and most privileged countries had famines quite regularly.
		This is a normal part of human experience, particularly in agricultural societies.
		We've been spared that by the regime of cheap energy, with tractors replacing draft animals for agriculture with ever-increasing supplies of pesticides and herbicides and fertilizers.
		But all of that is about to change as we run out of topsoil, as we run out of fresh water, and as we run out of cheap energy to supply the energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, I guess I should ask you about the other big controversial aspect of this whole thing.
		Of course, as we burn fossil fuels, we affect our atmosphere.
		Lots of controversy there, too.
		But is that one of the things that you suspect Mother Nature might do if we don't change our ways to balance the scales?
unidentified		Right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, global climate change is certainly a fact.
		And it appears that the ocean currents that keep countries like Britain and the rest of Northern Europe relatively warm, much warmer than they would be if you look on the map.
		They're actually very far north, about the same latitude as British Columbia and Alaska and so on.
		If those ocean currents were to change, we could be facing, ironically enough, a new ice age.
		We talk about global warming, but in fact, one of the effects of global warming is that the ocean currents are noticeably altering.
		And if that trend continues, we could see really catastrophic climate change.
		Yes, I've heard that.
		Okay, Richard, hold tight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're at the bottom of the air.
		My guest is Richard Heinberg.
		His book is The Party's Over.
		And this is straight talk about our nation's future, our economic future, and our energy future.
		And that, wrapped up together, is our future.
		Can you tell I like this piece of bumper music?
unidentified		Huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I love it.
		It comes from Well, it was used in Dead Like Me, which is also a very good series on Showtime.
		Check it out.
unidentified		Name of the group, because I keep getting millions of emails about it.
		The name of the group is Matisse.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call Arc at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country spread access number, pressing option 5, and titling Toll Free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good credentials, an expert on the world's oil.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		My guest is Richard Heinberg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's written a book called Parties Over, Oil, War, and the Fate of Industrial Society.
		That's us, I keep saying, and this.
		We're right in the middle of this party right now.
		And if you have questions for Richard, relevant questions for somebody like Richard with his expertise, then we welcome them.
		And those are the relevant telephone numbers where you can ask them.
		In a moment, we'll get it underway.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it's important that people understand that their entire life, oil is around you everywhere.
		I would urge you, look around you right now in the room you're in.
		You may have a television.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, look at that plastic all around that TV.
unidentified		That's oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That comes from oil, you know, the computer monitor I've got here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my telephone.
unidentified		Look at that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Petroleum-based.
		Everything around us, virtually everything around us is petroleum-based.
		So if we don't have oil, we're going to run out of a lot more than just gas in the tank, aren't we, Richard?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I mean, even if it's not made out of oil, chances are it was delivered to your home one way or another by a cheap oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's unimaginable being without oil.
		Unimaginable.
		I would like to take some questions from my audience and sort of intersperse it with our discussion of that deal, right?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's try it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time calling align, you're on the air with Richard Heinberg.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yeah.
		First of all, my name is Phoenix, and may I say it's an honor to speak with y'all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And to you, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, what I was wanting to ask him was, according to Tesla's writings and everything, was electricity, are you able to broadcast it like a radio wave?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You know, my guest is not going to be qualified to answer these sorts of questions.
		You may have researched it, Richard, in which case you're certainly welcome to give it a try.
		But there were rumors that Tesla had invented a way to transmit electricity through the air, you know, all that sort of stuff.
		I'm sure you've heard it.
unidentified		Right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, actually, when I talked earlier about being at the U.S. Patent Office researching patents, it was Tesla's patents that I was researching.
		And, yeah, he did definitely find a way to broadcast power.
		Now, whether it was going through the atmosphere or going through the ground was never clearly established.
		He had to discontinue his experiments because he ran out of funding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we all know that when he died, the government rushed in, grabbed all the documents and writings of Tesla, and has kept them basically secret.
		And people, of course, imagine that he had the answer to the world's energy problems, and the government's hiding it away.
		I personally don't subscribe to it, but one never knows.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, there may be some interesting secrets being hidden away related to Tesla's discoveries.
		But if he did discover an infinite cheap source of power, it doesn't appear anywhere in his patents.
		I can say that.
		All right.
		You've done that much of a search then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		That's very interesting, actually.
		In all the things that Tesla did patent, nowhere did you see a free source of energy.
		Nowhere did you see a patent that describes a tower that rises into the air and plucks from the atmosphere power that would drive our cities and our vehicles.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		His broadcast energy system relied on conventional energy sources to produce the power.
		In other words, hydroelectricity and so on.
		All right, very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Richard Heinemann.
		Hi.
		Or Heinberg, I'm sorry.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hello.
		Richard.
		Thank you so much for this topic tonight.
		I'm Neil calling from Pacific Northwest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Neil, you're going to have to shout at us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not too loud.
unidentified		Okay, a little bit better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Much better.
unidentified		Thank you, sir.
		I'm reading out of the newsletter this month's publication from Richard Heinberg.
		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A subscriber to your newsletter.
unidentified		From the March edition called Goethe Damarung.
		He brings up some very interesting points that one is that our economy is being undermined from a lot of borrowed money and the energy crisis is symptomatic of the whole borrowed energy, borrowed money syndrome.
		And I'm wondering if Mr. Heinberg has a different model, a different social model.
		I was lucky enough to go overseas and live as a military dependent when I was a juvenile and then again as a soldier.
		And I saw the European system which was oil, you know, gas was $4 or $5 a gallon and people used mass transit more.
		They still do.
		We haven't adapted that model.
		We probably can't adapt that model just because of our social things.
		You did mention the earlier points, Richard, which were farm your own food at home, something I strongly believe in, walk whenever possible, use less fossil fuel, use less energy consumptive.
		But my question is, what social model could you pick out of anywhere in the world to say they're doing it right or they're doing it so well?
		And here the question is, why has our government, our current government, made such a colossal failure of not only of wasting our money, but of wasting all the energy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Last one first, I guess.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a lot.
		A different social model, that's a tough one to address.
		Well, one thing I would say is a different monetary model could help a lot.
		Right now we have money that is essentially created by banks in the process of making loans.
		And that kind of money, fiat paper, well it's not always even paper, it's usually electronic money, carries interest because the only way it can be created is through the making of loans.
		And as a result of that, the economy has to continually grow or the whole system will collapse.
		Because if the economy doesn't grow, if more people aren't taking out loans, then there won't be the extra capital to pay back the existing loans with interest.
		And we've seen historically when that happens, the economy doesn't just go on in a steady state, it collapses, as happened during the 1930s.
		I'm afraid we're entering into a historical period where conventional economic growth, as I said earlier, is not going to be possible because there won't be the cheap energy to fuel it.
		So what we really need is a different kind of non-debt-based, non-interest-based money to enable our economy to continue.
		One of the tragedies of the Great Depression was that people still wanted to work, the factories were still there, they still needed all the same stuff that they needed before, but there just wasn't the money available to enable the system to run.
		I think the same thing is possible in the very near future where we may enter into a deflationary kind of spiral where there just won't be the money, the capital available to enable the system to run.
		So one thing I think we need is a different kind of monetary system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know how you do that without paying back the present debt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when you look at those numbers and the rate at which we're actually increasing that debt right now...
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah, it's not an easy thing to solve.
		And again, I don't think it's likely to be solved before we actually arrive at a crisis situation.
		But when we do, I think it'll be important for there to be models available.
		Are you enough of an economist or would-be economist, Richard, to forecast when that crisis, when we're going to have the gates come tumbling down there?
		Well, I'd shy away from making any specific predictions as to dates, but it may not be that far away because the levels of debt in the U.S. right now are just unsustainable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Incredible.
		Absolutely incredible.
		However, I suppose from a historical perspective, Richard, in some ways, you have to give credit to those who have managed our economy so far.
		They have put us in a sustained period with little ups and downs of the most prosperous, continuously prosperous period of time that almost anybody's ever experienced.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in a way, they've done pretty well.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, except that for the past couple of decades, we've basically maintained that degree of prosperity by borrowing from our children and grandchildren.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know, but still in all.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		We have benefited.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Those of us who are sort of in the baby boom generation, especially, you know, we have lived during the most prosperous, wealthy period of time in all of human history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The champagne years.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		We've enjoyed it and we've used it up.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		It's been a great party.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you can clearly see the first guests beginning to go home, huh?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Heinberg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Going once.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going twice.
		Gone.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Heinberg.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		Yes, this is Terry.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Terry.
unidentified		I wonder, I work at San Diego State University.
		And we have developed a hybrid electric vehicle that we developed it three years ago.
		And it runs on biodiesel also.
		And it gets 80 miles per gallon.
		And it was made with off-the-shelf components.
		Which means that the car companies could have done this and built this car three years ago.
		I was wondering if I could give the website so people could look at it.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Not on the air.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		No, you can't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we have a rule against that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But if you want to send me an email, we can get, if it's interesting, we can get a link up, okay?
unidentified		Well, the thing that's different about it is it's 260 horsepower.
		It's 60 horsepower diesel and 200 horsepower electric.
		And hello?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		No, we're listening.
unidentified		Okay.
		Okay, so it's 200 horsepower electric.
		And it's a two-seat sports car that weighs 2,800 pounds.
		And we have announced on the radio here in San Diego or on TV that we're going to drive it from San Diego to Daytona Beach, Florida on one tank of gas on the 4th of July.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wish you certainly all the luck in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do you think that the Ford Motor Company or, I don't know, somebody of substance hasn't knocked on your door and said, hey.
unidentified		You know, that's the strange thing.
		We showed it off in Sacramento at the EVAA.
		It was EVAA back then, three years ago.
		And we had it at the Michelin Challenge.
		We competed in the Michelin Challenge.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's quite a bit of exposure.
unidentified		Yes.
		And we've actually, you know, it's funny.
		The Japanese, when we drove it to the EDAA meeting in Sacramento, the Japanese just kind of all in unison turned their head and looked the other way.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And to what do you attribute that?
unidentified		I have no idea.
		Bob Letz actually talked with us about it.
		He was there.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that'll lead to, I guess, a bigger discussion.
		Richard, let's assume for a second what he's saying is all true, and they have this vehicle that can do exactly as he said.
		Why would you imagine that anybody would turn their head, the Japanese or the Americans or anybody else for that matter, why wouldn't somebody immediately grab onto that, ah, the future, profit, money, let's rock?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, I can understand the American car companies doing it just on the basis that That's sort of their standard operating procedure.
		They've let slip all sorts of opportunities to increase energy efficiency of their fleets.
		But the Japanese, that's harder to understand because Japan, we have to remember, is a country with no indigenous energy resources.
		And so they're much more interested in energy efficiency than the Americans are.
		By the way, there's already a European car that gets 90 miles to the gallon, and that is the Volkswagen Lupo, which is a diesel car.
		It's a small car.
		Unfortunately, it is not exported to the U.S. because Volkswagen says that there is no demand for it here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No demand?
		Well, earlier we were talking about American car companies churning out these SUVs.
		I don't fault them.
		I don't fault the American car companies at all.
		The American car companies have, you know, if they go on a stay in business, they have to produce what people want.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		They want to make a profit.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's certainly true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they want to make a profit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everything's profit-driven, and the American people want big cars.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And so it's not their fault.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They have to produce what people want, or they won't be in business.
		How do we change the minds and the hearts of Americans to not want the SUV?
		Instead, to want the thing that gets 90 miles per gallon.
		If we could change their minds and hearts, we'd have it.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think two things could be done.
		First of all, if we could take away the subsidy that's being given to SUV buyers by the federal government and change that to a subsidy that is directly related to vehicle efficiency, that would certainly help.
		Then if the American public, the world, for that matter, could be alerted to the fact that, in fact, energy resources are limited and that we are necessarily going to have to restrict our appetites for abundant energy and become more efficient.
		You know, right now we have the most effective propaganda machine in the world here in the United States.
		It's called the advertising industry.
		People base their behavior on what they're told.
		I think we pride ourselves, particularly the intelligent people, that we don't pay attention to the advertising.
		But it's effective, otherwise billions of dollars wouldn't be spent on it.
		So that propaganda stream needs to be altered.
		It needs to be telling us in some ways almost exactly the opposite of the message that it is giving us now.
		The message we're getting now is buy, consume, waste, like there's no tomorrow.
		And the real message is if we continue to buy and consume and waste the way we are now, there will be no tomorrow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I'm going to be honest with you, and I was being honest with you when I told you 90% of the time I'm driving a GeoMetro, but out in one of my other garages, Richard, I have a Firebird Trans Am.
		That baby kicks butt.
		And I remember the Super Bowl a few years ago, 1998, actually, and in it they debuted this Firebird Trans Am.
		And my mouth hit the floor.
		I fell in love with that thing and the power.
		And, you know, I've got it out there.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I don't use it very often.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But every now and then, Richard, I want to get out there and I want to feel that mama take off.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I want to be pressed back in the seat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to feel the velocity.
		You know, fun car.
		That's what it is.
		And frankly, I don't know how you get people to give that up, Richard.
		I have no idea.
		And it's going to have to happen, isn't it?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, ultimately, it'll just be too expensive for any but the very wealthy to be able to afford that kind of experience on a regular basis.
		Oh, well, you know, it's like I said, it's been a great party.
		And in some ways, I think it's worth enjoying as it winds down what we have.
		And the automobile is art form.
		Sure, I can appreciate that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		There is that.
		And so even though the first couple of guests may have wandered to the door and be on the way out, the party's ending, for how much longer can we have a general expectation of the party rolling on?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, in terms of normal life, as we're used to it, probably not that much longer, because the natural gas crisis is beating down the door right now.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		We've only averted a really serious in-your-face natural gas crisis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		10 years, 15 years, 20 years?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, no, no, no.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		We're talking about within the next two or three years with natural gas.
unidentified		What?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What will begin to happen in two or three years?
		I mean, will what?
		It will be so expensive you can't afford it?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Electricity, for example, will become more expensive.
		We're generating a lot of our electricity through natural gas, mostly through coal, but we've ordered about $100 billion worth of natural gas-fired power plants over the last few years.
		And because, of course, natural gas burns clean, and we were told that there were limitless supplies of it.
		But now that natural gas production is declining rapidly in North America, there's a real question as to where all that gas is going to come from to generate the electricity.
		That's right.
		All right.
		Gotcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're at a break point here at the top of the hour.
		Trouble on the way.
		And, you know, I thought he was going to say 10 or 20 or 30 years, but really, the next two or three years, well, I don't know.
		Then what kind of attitude do you have?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Get out there and have a blast.
unidentified		So far out tonight, but if I would take your time, there's a black moon on the right.
		I did a perfect change of glory.
		I know the end.
		I think you're so crazy.
		Red and blue and cute.
		I've seen them blue.
		For me and you.
		And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
		I see skies of blue.
		And clouds of white.
		Such a bright blessed day.
		And I'll say goodnight.
		And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To target with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may retart by calling your in-country print access number, pressing option 5, and filing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		I've watched them grow They'll learn much more And I'll never know That's such a pretty song.
		Good morning, everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My guest is a realist.
		He's Richard Heinberg, who's written a book called Parties Over the Oil War and the Fate of Industrial Societies, and it's something we're going to have to face up to.
		There's no question about it.
		It's coming.
		It's here.
		And soon, it'll be gone.
		wonder when we start planning Richard Heinberg, once again, The Party's Over, his book.
		Richard, your book, The Party's Over, in your book, did you, in what way did you lay it out?
		Was your main intent exactly that, to have your readers understand the party is really over?
		Is it documenting that, or does it go forward into other areas like where, or all areas, how people can conserve themselves?
		And by the way, I have questions wanting you to go further than you did with the personal advice.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Yeah, I try to do all of that.
		You know, it's not a pleasant message.
		It's cold water in the face, is what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And so I emphasize that with the title, The Party's Over.
		I want people to know that this is serious news.
		And we like good news, but sometimes the bad news is more important to hear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you are aware of the fate of messengers.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		So far I've managed to avoid that fate.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Have you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, but I'm sure in a literary sense, I bet you've had people come and attack you for this.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, absolutely.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've gotten some pretty nasty emails.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I bet you have.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, what's the matter with you?
unidentified		Don't you know there's more oil than man can ever use out there?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, worse than that, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can imagine, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Einberg.
unidentified		Hello.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Art.
unidentified		Hi, Richard.
		This is Ahab.
		I'm calling from South Bend, Indiana.
		Listening to you on 890 at ULS out of Chicago.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Well, I got to tell you, I'm pretty hot to talk to this guest tonight because this is my favorite topic.
		We are insane in this country.
		I mean, everything that you're talking about, we've known about since the 70s.
		Yet the country has not done what it needs to do.
		We just keep, you know, we're just so, we've had this lull of low prices, and, you know, we haven't had the motivation or the leadership at the government level to start, you know, decentralizing some of the local electric grid power so we don't rely on all these huge plants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know that enough of the audience is old enough, but some will be, to remember.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		We did indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We had this crisis, and people began to change the way they think and the way they acted.
		And all kinds of things happened back during that gas crisis, but boy, did we forget about it fast.
		I mean, whoo, woo-hoo.
unidentified		Well, it's almost, I mean, it really, the behavior of the industry in terms of supply and pricing, I mean, it makes me believe every conspiracy thing I've ever heard.
		I mean, it's almost like as soon as we got on track to getting away from the petro economy, they cracked the valves open and dropped the prices down, and everybody kind of forgot about everything.
		The tax credits on renewable energy expired.
		They didn't get, you know, Congress let them lapse.
		I mean, I've got a 25-year-old Grumman, a stainless steel solar water heater that still works to this day.
		But who in their right mind is going to spend a grand on a water heater, even if it lasts 25, 30 years?
		It's still going great.
		I don't know how long it's going to last.
		When you can go to any big, you know, appliance depot type place and, you know, get a gas water heater for, you know, $200.
		The government has to get behind and put some incentives so people will make good choices for our long-term benefit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The government is us.
		And look at us.
		You just really pointed out how well all of us recovered as though the party's never going to end.
		Once the lights went back on, we just started singing where we left off.
unidentified		Just like we have collective amnesia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		As soon as those dollars start to drop at the pump, you know, when the prices got back down to like a buck 20 a buck out here, everybody started getting the behemoths again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We were back in biz.
unidentified		Right.
		And I'll tell you, I've spent most of my career in professional commercial horticulture.
		And there are many, many callers, I'm sure, that could back me up on this.
		Good old-fashioned ag school crossbreeding has already produced some killer fuel seed crops that grow on transition soil, marginal soil that were not in use now.
		I mean, I myself have witnessed some of the Michigan State's test crops up in Michigan here, just north of me, where they had a whole field of 25, 30-foot hemp plants that grew in one season that were just like a giant tree the size of a small apple tree, solid seeds.
		Yes.
		Now, you tell me, marginal, marshy land where this stuff grows without even any fertilizer.
		Go out there, crush the seeds.
		I'm not saying it would solve everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you know, you really do raise a good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It makes you want to believe every damn conspiracy theory out there.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		It does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what about you, Richard?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, needless to say, I agree with everything the caller has said.
		We've suffered from really the curse of cheap energy in a lot of ways.
		I mean, cheap energy has given us amazing mobility and freedom and power, but it's also made us addicted to a way of life that is ultimately unsustainable.
unidentified		Oh, you said it.
		I mean, thank you.
		Thank you for somebody saying it.
		I mean, we are just no better as a nation than some crack addict busting into people's cars to steal some money to support their habit.
		Now, we can't support our own energy habits, and we've got to send our boys and girls all over the world now to go kick ass and make sure that the pipelines keep running.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we better face up to it because that is what we're doing.
unidentified		I mean, it's just so sad, and it's so unnecessary when all the know-how is here.
		I mean, like that guy that called before, my God, this, you know, I mean, Art, I mean, I know that you know.
		You were around in the 70s.
		I mean, Weisler had a little duster that they replaced half the body parts with aluminum and put an aluminum block in it.
		The thing was a 74 duster, or they called it like a fuel miser or something.
		That got 36 miles to the gallon with early 70s technology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I knew.
unidentified		And it still weighed like 3,200 pounds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But again, the government, thank you, Color.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a good caller.
unidentified		The government is us.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		They're not really much different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They represent us and what we want.
		And so we're the ones driving this.
		And same deal with the car companies.
		They wouldn't sell what we don't want because nobody'd buy it.
		So it's us driving this.
		That's what we've got to get through to ourselves, that we are driving this addiction, and they're just the suppliers.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		And we need good information on which to base our decisions.
		You're right.
		In a sense, the government is us.
		But we're going to make bad decisions as long as we have bad information.
		And right now, I think most of us, most Americans, assume that cheap oil is our birthright.
		That's what we've been told.
		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Richard Heinbert.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Okay, is that me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's you.
unidentified		Okay, this is Randall.
		I'm a truck driver.
		I'm calling from Coachella, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And since we're talking about oil, I'm a dinosaur.
		I drive a truck.
		I'll do 130,000 miles a year.
		I'm working right now.
		I pull off the side of the road so you can have a good connection on my cell phone here, Ark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I have logged a gazillion miles in the last nine years listening to you and now, of course, George Nori.
		I own one car, a 1967 Buick Skylark with a V8, and I've got a bigger V8 sitting in the garage waiting to go in with a positive tracker in it.
		I love being slammed in the back seat.
		I don't drive it very far.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		See, we can't give this up.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Plus, he's a truck driver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, as a truck driver, when you hear Richard saying the things he's saying, how do you feel about that?
unidentified		Well, I have a feeling after many years of listening to you and also just where I'm going, hoping to go spiritually, none of this that he's talking about in the last caller, I love the guy.
		You know, the truth of the matter is he's right.
		This nation is a nation of addicts of more than one kind.
		And the bottom line is, without a spiritual awakening, it isn't going to happen unless, and this is my question for you, Richard, do you believe that the only way this is going to happen is what we've talked about, or I should say you are, have talked about, is we're going to have a big reduction in population.
		Because you alluded to it earlier.
		You said nature will take care of it.
		Well, we're not going to stop.
		If you look out here right now tonight, there's hundreds of trucks going into California to deliver, and there's hundreds of thousands of us doing this job.
		So how would they get food?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, first of all, Mother Nature doesn't get angry.
		She gets even.
		She evens things out.
		And I'm afraid, which do you think it'll be?
		Do you think we will first learn to modify our ways in profound manners?
		Or do you think that nature will foist upon us a balancing act resulting in two or three billion people less?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, quite frankly, I think it's going to be a combination of the two.
		I doubt if we are going to make the kinds of drastic efforts that will be needed short of necessity.
		And that necessity is probably going to come in some pretty nasty forms.
		Beyond that, I dread to make more specific predictions, except to say that I think your caller is absolutely right, that there's a spiritual dimension to this in that, well, spirituality has a kind of ethical dimension to it.
		And I think as we awaken to the fact that we are dependent on a force greater than ourselves, namely the Earth, we will find that the ethical path is a kind of eco-ethics where we acknowledge that the Earth has its own consciousness,
		its own rhythms, and we are here to serve that rather than it to serve us, ultimately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you see this kind of transformation taking place among the American people?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I say, it's going to be a process.
		But I do see hopeful signs.
		I mean, you know, I'm a college teacher.
		I deal with a new crop of students every few months.
		And, you know, I don't have to take very long explaining all this stuff to them.
unidentified		They get it right away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but still, if you were to examine the life that those students of yours are leading right now, would that be consistent with them getting it?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe I'm fortunate in where I live and the students that get attracted to New College, but most of the students that I have, I think, are already on the path.
		Maybe they're attracted to my program because they already have this sense, but they know that the world is about to change in profound ways, and they want to be out there in front leading that change rather than having their lives destroyed by it.
		Very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on there with Richard Heinberg.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, this is Tom.
		Lafayette, Indiana.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Tom.
unidentified		How are you out less?
		Right.
		I just wanted to add to the conversation that just this last week, Ford came out with a new gas-electric hybrid.
		It's called the Ford Escape.
		And it's an SUV.
		It's an SUV.
		Well, let's see.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's what people want.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		How does it do?
unidentified		Do they have a plan?
unidentified		They're claiming 60 miles to the gallon.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, that would be serious.
unidentified		And they also have an escape that's just plain gas.
		You know, no hybrid.
		And they say the hybrid's only like $2,000 to $3,000 more than the plain gas one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty interesting.
unidentified		And they're expecting to sell all of them that they can build.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I bet they will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, leave it for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that's right, Richard?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Have you heard of that?
		You know, I haven't heard this.
		I knew that they were planning a hybrid SUV, but I hadn't heard the announcement that it had come out.
		Well, if they've got an SUV that will get 60 miles to the gallon.
		That's true.
		It's good news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They would have a really serious seller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Heinberg.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, my name's Elaine.
		I'm on the Oregon coast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Elaine.
unidentified		I wanted to know what ever happened to the Bitalis engine.
unidentified		Bitalis, it was a Brayton cycle engine, a constant pressure engine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what did this engine do?
unidentified		It could burn biomass.
		Somebody said earlier something about hemp plants, and the designers said, well, I wonder if they could finally find a use for kudzu or scotch broom.
		That's a good idea.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Have you heard of that?
		You know, that's something I haven't heard of.
		There are so many of these things, different energy efficiency devices, different kinds of motors and so on out there.
		What we really need, I think, is a blue ribbon commission to look at all of the energy alternatives, everything from nuclear to solar thermal and solar PV and evaluate all of them across a range of consistent and transparent criteria to see what we should be investing in.
		Because we need to be investing not just a billion here or there, which is what the current administration is doing, but literally hundreds of billions of dollars in this energy transition.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you been asked to testify in front of Congress?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		No, I haven't.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I have spoken with local government and also members of the House of Representatives, a couple of senators, but I would like to get the message out to as high a level as possible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
		You're on the air with Art Bell and Richard Heinberg.
		Good morning.
		Where are you?
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, I'm in Columbus, Ohio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		How are you tonight?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I'm just fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to the program.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
		I'm a first-time caller.
		My father and I both listened to your show a lot.
		We listened to George.
		And the reason I'm calling is back in the 70s, I was about during the gas shortage, I was about 16, 17 years old.
		And my stepfather, he owned some oil wells in West Virginia.
		And the government at that time and the company, I'm not going to mention it, the oil company that he was selling oil to, they subsidized him at that time to quit pumping oil.
		And also, I don't know if Richard knows much about that, but also they do the same thing with crops up here in Ohio.
		They subsidize farmers not to grow corn and that type of thing.
		I know that for a fact, too.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
		Richard, do you want to comment on that?
		Yeah, I can't.
		I have no knowledge of that specific situation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they do subsidize farmers to just leave stuff.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, definitely with agriculture.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		But the question about the oil well in West Virginia, I don't know about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, but gee, Richard, if they subsidize farmers to not grow stuff, you were saying we were already at the peak of agriculture, right?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That doesn't make sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why don't you stop the subsidies once you get the peak?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, the problem is with distribution.
		We actually produce enough food to feed everyone, but the problems of distribution and economics keep it from getting to the people who need it.
		So it's a complicated situation.
		And of course, there are a lot of marginally producing American oil wells where it actually costs more money to get the oil out of the ground than the oil is actually worth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, they will begin to pump that oil at some certain price.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All of a sudden, it's going to be magically profitable for them to bring it up.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		But then we're talking about very expensive oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How expensive?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, if there's a capped well down in Texas or Oklahoma somewhere right now, when do you expect they'll rip the cap well?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		It depends on the particular well.
		Now, maybe when oil gets up to $40 a gallon, well, that's, or $40 a barrel rather, that might be the trigger that would Enable that particular well to be produced.
		But we may be talking about a well that would only produce 5, 10, 20 barrels a day.
		There are literally thousands of wells in the U.S. that only produce a few barrels a day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, I'll tell you, Richard, your message is pretty killing.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		It really is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, when you begin to consider the implications for not just this country, but the whole world.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean it to be.
		You know, I'm not a morose, gloomy character myself.
		This is not something genetic or personality.
		I've got that.
		This is the information that we need to hear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that I've got that.
		Richard Heinberg is my guest, and I think I do have it.
		The party's over.
		His book, you might want to read it.
		Oil, war, and the fate of industrial societies.
unidentified		Us from the high desert in the middle of the night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're listening to Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Coast to Coast AM
		So thank you.
		To talk with Arc Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Arc Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call ARC at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ArcBell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		All good things eventually have to end.
		That's what the party's over is all about.
		It's not going to be a very popular message, but if you've been listening carefully this morning, it's...
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		It's killing reality.
unidentified		It's killing reality.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's funny.
		You do a show about oil, but you end up talking really about everything else.
		And I guess that is inevitable since the message here is it's over.
		And if it's not over today, it's over in the next few years.
		It begins to get seriously over.
		We're running out.
		That's all there is to it.
		So you end up talking about a lot of other things.
		Geothermal, Richard, geothermal.
		Is there anything, how much substance is there in pursuing that angle?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, I live near one of the country's biggest geothermal stations, the geysers, here in Northern California.
		And it supplies a certain percentage of California electricity.
		It's not a large percentage.
		It's down in the single digits.
		I'm not quite sure what the exact number is.
		Geothermal is site-specific.
		There are only certain places that have the resource.
		And then it's actually not renewable, unfortunately, because once you sink the pipe down and get that hot water up and take the heat out of water to turn turbines and generate electricity, well, that resource of hot underground water tends to deplete over time.
		And most geothermal sites are exhausted within a matter of a few decades.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me get your opinion on this.
		We have, well, several currently at least viable technologies, including the sun and conversion of that energy.
		People have had thoughts about putting up satellites and capturing energy in space at a much larger efficiency and then transmitting it to Earth with microwaves.
		What else is possible with the wind?
		Certainly, in fact, the wind, I understand, is actually per kilowatt, the cheapest right now.
		Where should we be going, Richard?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, wind is a good investment.
		There's no doubt about it.
		As you say, it is relatively inexpensive, and it can be brought online quite quickly, unlike nuclear.
		For example, nuclear power plants take a long time to design and install, and they're very expensive, whereas wind turbines can go up quite rapidly.
		I think that's where we should be putting most of our investment right now.
		But there's no single silver bullet.
		There's no one size fits all for our national energy policy in the future.
		We're going to have to explore a whole range of alternatives.
		And all of them together Are not going to be able to supply the same kind of continually growing cheap energy supply that we've become used to.
		So we'll have to change the way we use energy and use it much more efficiently and miserly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And our lifestyles will have to change quite quickly.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we'll have to move producers and consumers closer together.
		All of this business of driving an hour or two every day to go to and from work or to stores to shop and so on, that is going to have to change.
		And we're also going to have to find ways to do with fewer personal cars.
		I mean, the idea of car co-ops is I think a good one.
		And also building more public transportation infrastructure the way they have in Europe.
		In many ways, I think Europeans are much better positioned to handle the energy crunch than we are in the U.S. You know, it's funny.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I listen to this, and even in my own mind, I'm really not ready for the party to be over.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		That's the truth.
unidentified		I'm not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I understand what we're facing and what you're saying, I believe to be true, but I'm not ready for the party to be over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can't imagine living the kind of life that you're really talking about.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I can't imagine that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, my car and a car co-op give me a break.
unidentified		Yikes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that's a future most Americans just can't even imagine.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		And it's taken me a while to get used to the idea, too.
		And I'm certainly not looking forward to the kinds of changes in the economy and otherwise that could be very disruptive in the next few years.
		I would like to be proven wrong in a lot of what I'm saying.
unidentified		I hope you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have a nagging suspicion that you're not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Heinberg.
unidentified		Hi.
		How you doing?
		I'll tell you, you know, I'm Paul from Glen Mills, Pennsylvania, Art, and I started listening to you in 96 when I went to Vegas, and I've been listening ever since.
		You're doing a great job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I think we ought to invade Rory over there.
unidentified		They're playing us for a sucker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Invade what?
unidentified		Invade OPEC.
		Make OPEC a memory.
		Take it over.
		They're playing us for a sucker.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean take over the OPEC nations?
unidentified		Take over the whole thing.
unidentified		The whole thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They can do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everywhere where there's oil.
unidentified		Well, basically most of it, you know, major parts.
		I mean, we're already over there.
		We're done with Iraq, basically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, just move on to Syria, Iran.
unidentified		I would say do it because they're starting it.
		They're playing around with us.
		And they're playing around with the whole world economy.
		So I think we have a right to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I appreciate your point of view.
		And hey, Richard, you know what?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		There's going to be a lot of guys out there like him.
		Yeah, I think actually that's pretty close to the game plan.
		But, you know, here we might learn a little lesson from history.
		There was a big empire around a couple of thousand years ago that also had its military garrisoned in far-off countries and was dependent on resources from far away.
		Would that be the one where the sun never set on it?
		Yeah, well, the Roman Empire is what I'm thinking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to go back even further.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, even further.
		And the tendency of empires is to collapse because after a while, they start spending more on garrisoning their colonial troops than they're spending on infrastructure at home.
		I think that's what's happening with the U.S. right now.
		We're actually starting to spend more on keeping our military going abroad, keeping the resource flows going, than we are on our people and their needs.
		And that's when a society reaches that point, I think it's a dangerous situation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcardline, you're on the air with Richard Heinberg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
		Hi.
		Richard, it's a pleasure to be on.
		Good.
		Getting back into the old days in the Industrial Revolution there, there was a fellow that invented a machine that was unlike a cotton gin, separating cotton, etc., etc., what that did to that industry.
		He invented a machine that separated the fibers from hemp.
		Oh, yes.
		And hemp being the fastest renewable biomass plant on the planet.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can stop right there.
		He's right, Richard.
		Hemp is a remarkable resource that we have turned our backs on, largely, in the United States.
		I read in the Wall Street Journal, Richard, that it would be some incredible number of, like $500 billion it could contribute to our economy.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, here in Northern California, where I live, it's already the biggest cash crop.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		But that's an aside, really.
		What your caller is saying is absolutely true.
		Hemp, as an industrial crop, forget about the mind-altering attributes of certain strains of the species.
		As an industrial crop, we're crazy not to be taking advantage of it.
		There are other sources of biomass.
		Switchgrass actually has been experimented with.
		Switchgrass, of course, is legal to grow and could be a very effective crop for growing biomass for energy purposes.
		Seems like you ought to testify in front of Congress.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what I think, Richard.
unidentified		Well, I think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think they could handle that kind of testimony, that kind of reality?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think they could handle it?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I don't expect to be invited anytime soon.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I spoke recently with one member of Congress who is actually on the Energy and Technology Subcommittee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We could think of them as the hosts of the party.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		This individual told me that in private many of her colleagues are aware of at least some of what I'm talking about now.
		But they're really unable to say anything in public because it would be bad for politics.
		They wouldn't be re-elected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remarkable.
		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Heinberg.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, hey, you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just great, sir.
unidentified		The caller too back about that we should just go take over everything and get rid of OPEC and all that.
		You know, that seems to be the typical kind of muttonhead American idea.
		You know, people don't realize, you know, yeah, we do need to conserve and everything.
		But I think a bigger thing is everybody talks about, you know, I mean, what we're in the middle of right now, you know, we're sending over, you know, people, young people, they're dying and all the money that's wasted.
		And, you know, when this all happened in the 70s, when all of a sudden the squeeze was on and everything, I don't understand, you know, if OPEC or whoever it is, whoever they are over there, if they want to charge us $100 for a barrel of oil,
		let them charge us $100 for a barrel of oil, but just economically escalate, you know, put the price of all the food that they have to, you know, import from us over there, just jack the price of that way up and say, you know, how much of it do you want?
		Well, take as many barrels as you got of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Richard, do we have, Richard, do we then anticipate some sort of food for fuel war?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's not outside the range of possibility.
		What's actually happening right now is that the U.S. adventure in Iraq has alienated, in fact, many of the Arab oil-producing nations.
		And as we spoke about earlier, China is increasing its oil imports dramatically.
		So actually, China and the U.S. are in competition for OPEC oil to a much greater degree right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, Richard, wouldn't it scare the neighboring nations to a degree?
		I mean, it would do a lot of things.
		Our invasion of Iraq probably has scared the hell out of quite a few countries there.
		Syria and Iran come to mind immediately.
		Should they be worried?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, although, on the other hand, I think they've seen how the invasion was handled and the incredible ineptitude of many aspects of the invasion and how the U.S. is, in a sense, mired in place now and really not in any position to invade any more countries.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		We're having a tough time just handling this one country that we've had.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we are.
		Yes, we are.
		Although I have a sort of a theory about that, and it's maybe just grasping at straws, Richard.
		But my theory is that now that America is in Iraq, literally every terrorist organization from the entire world is probably pouring their assets into Iraq.
		So in a way, it puts them all in one place where we can do what we're doing.
		So it's, you know, a two-edged sword is what I'm saying.
		In a sense, perhaps we can have the battleground there.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Well, that was the theory that was put forward by a number of people in the Defense Department, and there's certainly some truth to it.
		As we've seen in Spain in the last few weeks, I don't think that Iraq has become the sole focus of international terrorism.
unidentified		That's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, you're on the air with Richard Heinberg.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		June there, Richard.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
unidentified		I just want to sum it up in two words here.
		National security.
		And the reason being with their current state of political affairs and our war on terrorism, you've got to think about this for a moment.
		If we had Joe Schmuckelli with some type of free energy system or a real efficient power plant, you've got to think about the freedom of mobility and the choke points.
		We're talking about you have to stop and get fuel.
		We have to go to the airports.
		We have to use our waterways.
		But if you have something that you don't have to stop for fuel, and you could put it in a car that could fly or an airplane, how are our world political powers going to put up these choke points, roadblocks, and stop our freedom of mobility?
		And I don't see that happening.
		And besides, even if you have the technology available to drive a tank round trip from coast to coast, it wouldn't make much difference because the world political power structure and the current infrastructure would cost enormous amount of money.
		It would take years to put it in the infrastructure.
		And meanwhile, we would rely on the oil to shift the magic bullet to the processing plant to produce something that's more efficient.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I'm not quite sure how to answer that.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I think I followed it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was sort of a, I guess, damned if we do and damned if we don't kind of thing.
		And if we come up with something to change the infrastructure, is itself going to be traumatic and expensive and energy consumptive.
		There's probably, well, you know, Richard, in the old days when we had piston aircraft, even now jet aircraft, really, you have this point when you're crossing the ocean, for example, to Japan, when a little red light comes on in the cockpit and it says, point of no return.
		Or it means point of no return.
		And what that means is, come hell or high water, baby, you just used up over half your fuel.
		Now either you're going on to your destination or you're going into the water.
		But you're not going home.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, we have about half of the oil that nature originally gave us left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do we really know that scientific?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		About a trillion barrels of oil in the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We scientifically know that for sure.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, to within a 10% margin of error.
		Now, if that's true, that last trillion barrels of oil is very valuable, and we should be using it for the most important life-sustaining purposes rather than just guzzling it down.
		We should be using it to fund the transition to renewable energies.
		We should be using it for absolutely essential purposes.
		And that's the kind of thing, those are the kinds of hard choices we need to be making, triage, in a sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's the message in the party's over.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you go and get this on Amazon, places like that?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		Yeah.
		In the book, I try to inform the reader just how important oil is to our way of life and give the scientific arguments for why oil is about to peak in production, and then discuss all the various alternatives from nuclear to solar and wind.
		And then just in the final chapter, talk about the choices that people can make in their individual lives.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, we've got such a short, so it's going to be a great book.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Grab it up, folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just very quickly, the nuclear option.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your position on that?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a number of problems with nuclear power.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Of course, the safety issue and also the possible source of weapons and terrorism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but all that being said, is it a viable?
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		As a source of energy, it is viable.
		There's something called energy return on energy investment or energy profit ratio.
		It takes energy to get energy.
		And with nuclear power, historically, when you add up all the energy required to build a nuclear plant, operate it, process the fuel, and then decommission the plant at the end of its cycle, it's actually not producing a very high energy profit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really want to thank you for coming on the air with me tonight.
		I think what you said here tonight should be said in front of Congress or the Senate or something.
		Thank you, Richard.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, Art.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		It's been a pleasure speaking with you and your listeners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		There you have it.
		And I really mean that, too.
		What he just said should be required listening in Congress and the Senate.
		Some committee has got to call this man and let him tell the truth and let them digest this information and see if they really want to do anything about it.
		Because I know a lot of you do.
		That's it for the weekend.
		That's all there is.
richard heinberg ▲ ● ▼		I've got to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Art Bell from the high desert in the middle of the night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As always, good night.
unidentified		Good night in the desert, shooting stars across the sky.
		It's a magical journey with dangerous dawn arrives.
		You with the longing, looking for the truth.

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