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Dec. 14, 2003 - Art Bell

02:48:36

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Shadow Government - Harry Helms

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01:04:49

harry helms

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Denver, and the great American Southwest I've been doing all of good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be across the cosmos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All time zones covered.
unidentified		All areas disappears is coast to coast AM.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Weekend version of our belt here.
unidentified		Big news!
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who won Survivor?
unidentified		You know, I...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think Rupert should have won.
		We should win retroactively or something.
		Is that the big news?
		I have a computer problem.
		That's pretty big.
		I'm ready to cheat this computer.
		And I would too, except it's Ramona's computer, and so I can.
		Any computer whizzes out there, try this one on besides Windows 98 version 2, right?
		Wife's machine, right?
		Okay.
		It prints everything just fine.
		Install a new print.
		Prints everything just fine.
		Except Netscape won't print.
		Every other function of the computer is perfect, but Netscape will not print.
		I've reinstalled Netscape, reinstalled the, you know, the software for the printer.
		I've done everything under the sun that I can think of to do, and I don't care what you order something to print Netscape, it just goes.
		And that's it.
		And it never prints.
		And I've been fighting with this machine now since, well, since the news of Saddam broke.
		Actually, since even slightly before that.
		And so somewhere out there, there's somebody who knows how this can possibly be.
		Some obscure person somewhere knows this.
		If that's you, email me, artbell at mindspring.com.
		That's A-R-T-B-E-L-L at mindspring.com.
		Artbell at mindspring.com.
		Well, I have no illusions with regard to what we're going to do in the first hour here, and we do have open lines.
		While you're certainly allowed to call about anything you want, I mean, obviously, unless you've had your head buried deep beneath the sand, it began, I would guess, about slightly less than an hour after I got off the air last night.
		Wham!
		A ham radio friend that I was in communication with up in British Columbia said, hey, they got Saddam.
		It's breaking.
		Well, they didn't know for sure right away, but, you know, it was all over the networks.
		Fox was saying, no, they didn't.
		CNN was saying, yes, they did.
		And then ABC and the rest of the networks began to break it.
		And sure enough, we got him.
		Caught like a rat in a hole is the headline CNN story.
		A little hole in the ground.
		And that's where Saddam was hiding.
		And we got him.
		So this hour, I guess I would like to ask you all, now what?
		We got him.
		Now what?
		That's the big question.
		Now what?
		In more ways than one.
		Now what?
		A trial?
		Jail?
		Terrorists from now until the day Saddam finally kicks off in the pokey?
		Saying free Saddam, bringing down airliners, doing terrorism around the world to get them set loose?
		Is that in our future?
		In other words, now what?
		That's what I want to ask the audience.
		Now what?
		We got them.
		Do you believe that it's going to change what's going on in Iraq on a day-to-day basis?
		Maybe.
		So the big question is, I'm just assuming all of you are swamped with the news of Saddam.
		The obvious question is, now what?
		And then in the next hour, after we're done with Saddam, it's going to get really interesting.
		Harry Helms is going to be here.
		We'll talk about pirate radio and about the shadow government.
		It's going to be a good one.
	It's really going to be a good one.
	Harry Helms is a cool dude.
	We interviewed him on pirate radio for about an hour, and I said we'd have him back.
	And so he is back tonight.
	Cool dude.
	In the meantime, though, now what?
	That really is my question.
	Now what?
	Assuming you all have the news and probably are almost sick of it by now, it's still, it's a monstrous, it's a really big deal.
	I mean, we did finally get Saddam Hussein.
	So what next?
unidentified		Gunshot The End
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's open the lines and see what you think.
		I want to know what you think.
		First time caller line, you are on the air.
		Cheerio.
unidentified		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		My name is Jeffrey.
		I'm Paul from Nashville, Tennessee.
		W-L-A-K-C 1510 a.m.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Jeffrey, way to hit one of our affiliates right on the news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay.
unidentified		The big news, what do you think?
		My thing of thinking is it's the best thing that we could have done so far is to capture Saddam.
		The U.S. federal government's smartest move was to pull him out of Iraq and keep him into a secured location.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, they're doing that.
unidentified		The next thing they want to do is not turn him over to the U.N. for some tribunal.
		They want to have that trial, and they want to have it in Baghdad.
		The Iraqi folks of Iraq need to do the trial.
		In order for all this to pull off right without like the Nuremberg trials, they need to do it in Iraq.
		He needs to face everybody that he has killed, maimed, hurt, or terrorized for the last 30 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's an interesting thought because I would think an Iraqi court and jury is probably going to be considerably more severe than one here in the U.S. What do you think?
unidentified		Actually, if he gets the trial done here, a lot of the global nations are going to say, no, that's foul because it's Bush wanting to take revenge.
unidentified		The smartest move for the situation to happen now is for him to be tried against his peers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, thank you.
		You know, that's pretty valid, in my opinion.
		If he's tried here, he'll be in jail for life, right?
		We all know that.
		There's no way an execution would ever take place here.
		No way.
		So he's certainly right about that.
		The Iraqis, on the other hand, probably would have considerable sway in terms of convincing me that they ought to be the ones, as he suggested, to try Saddam, not some international tribunal where he'll be, and I don't even know where they finally sentenced him to, but yeah, of your peers, about your peers, right?
		Well, wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, this is Michael.
		And I have some information that I think you folks overlooked, which relates both to Saddam and it ties Saddam directly to John Lear test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What does Saddam have to do with the John Lear test?
unidentified		Well, he has to do with everything because Saddam it's actually a pretty sad day for humanity today because for all of the bad things that Saddam did and I understand he did a lot of bad things.
unidentified		Nonetheless, he was trying to free this planet from a particular extraterrestrial race.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He was?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Saddam was doing that?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think he was trying to free the planet mostly from his own citizens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, he slaughtered a lot of them.
unidentified		Well, perhaps, that's that.
unidentified		If he did it, and you should have to say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're sad that Saddam is toast?
unidentified		In some way, because I'm trying to be rational here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and a very emotional issue everybody you are saying that secretly saddam was actually uh...
unidentified		interfacing with the aliens and so He was semi-public about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		And my information comes from somebody whom you have interviewed a lot and whom you're very familiar with, and that is Richard Hoagland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard Hoagland?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But directly?
		I mean, did you talk to Richard since the capture of Saddam?
		Not in person, but I heard one of his presentations at So therefore, that couldn't have been said.
		There's just no way.
		I know for a fact because I talked to Richard, and he will be lucky and will be lucky if he gets here tomorrow night.
		He's got the flu.
		And so he wouldn't have communicated with Richard.
		Saddam, the alien negotiator.
		Easton in the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yes.
		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		This is Wade calling from Louisa, Kentucky, listening to you on 1100 a.m.
unidentified		Cleveland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How'd he do?
unidentified		Doing all right.
unidentified		First off, he was talking about your computer problem earlier, and I guess a side note for this, I read this weekend that Microsoft is actually going to quit next month, giving technical support for people whose computers have Windows 95 and Windows 98.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		It's the end.
		They won't even tell me how to fix it.
unidentified		And my wife won't let me turn it into XP.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's her machine.
		If it was my machine, it would have one of two things already done to it about 18 hours ago.
		You know, it would have a bullet through the front of it, or it would have XP Pro in there instead of anyway.
unidentified		Yeah, that's what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, what do you think about Saddam?
unidentified		Well, in the short run, I'm expecting there'll probably be some type of severe retaliation against our forces in Iraq and the Baghdad area.
		In fact, I guess the big report that's coming out tonight is that we've already flown Saddam out of the country to Qatar.
		And because they were actually expecting some type of an escape attempt to try to rescue him by the various resistance.
		But I'm expecting, I'm glad it happened.
		It was unusual how it happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think we would have been better off with Saddam dead or alive?
unidentified		Well, on the trying part, it might have been better, but it would have possibly made him a martyr in the Arab world because many of the people in the Arab world were expecting Saddam to die, you know, going down with a fight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I mean, you've got a tremendous point there.
		Even though last night, while they were putting the tongue depressor on him, my wife said, you know, oops.
		Gee, that was a tongue depressor with the poison.
		Too bad.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that didn't happen.
		So he's live now.
		And so you think best tried and then in jail?
unidentified		Well, I think he should, well, since his boys are already gone, it probably wouldn't hurt to take care of him as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You heard the caller who said he should be tried in Iraq instead of by some international tribunal, right?
unidentified		Yeah, I would actually rather have the Iraqis try him than the international tribunal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		I agree.
		Right off the bat, I agree with the caller, and you apparently do too.
		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		That the Iraqis should try him.
		I really think I like that a lot.
		Rather than some international tribunal or something here in the United States, forget it.
		Let it happen in Baghdad.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, this is Sam in Birmingham, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Sam.
unidentified		On KGMI 790.
		Yes, sir.
		Yeah, I think it's better off that we found him alive.
		That way, the Iraqi people can judge him for what he's done and then go from there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what you think is going to happen?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you really think the Iraqis are going to get a chance to try him?
unidentified		I think so.
		I think Bush is going to let them do it because if he goes to try to do it here or elsewhere, he's going to say, hey, they're a bad guy.
		Let them take care of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, wouldn't our president be in opposition to probably the international will to do that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because there's going to be a lot of international pressure to have him in front of some war crimes tribunal, I'm sure.
unidentified		We didn't listen to the world when we went to Iraq, So, why are we going to listen to him now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why start listening now?
		Right on.
		All right, thank you.
		He's got a very good point there as well.
		We certainly did not listen to the rest of the world, did we, when we invaded Iraq in the first place?
		And so, why begin listening now?
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		How you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing all right, and you're on the air.
unidentified		Oh, thank you.
unidentified		I think it's great they caught them, and they ought to try them right there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right there in Iraq.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that'll happen?
unidentified		Probably not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably not.
		What do you think is most likely in reality?
		Some kind of international war crimes tribunal, I suppose?
unidentified		No, actually, I see probably France and a couple of them other guys trying to ride in and probably try and scoop them up and probably try and put them away somewhere where they're going to just separate them from everywhere and put them in some little soft little cushy place where they can wrap them up in mothballs.
unidentified		And that way, if they ever want to bring him back out, they can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		Well, that might be France, all right.
		But do you know how far down the list France is in terms of who's going to get possession of Saddam?
		I would say dead last, actually.
		Wild Carline, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
		All right, as far as where to try Saddam, I just think that tribunal is probably the best way to go.
		Well, because I agree that the Iraqi people probably should, but I think it's just going to be too far down the road before they're in control enough.
		It'll still look like we're manipulating them, I'm afraid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But couldn't we keep him sequestered until the right moment arrives, until Iraq stabilizes enough that he could be tried there?
unidentified		Yeah, we could, but I just think that's going to be a long ways down the road, and I think it'll cause a lot of trouble in the meantime.
unidentified		And also, I don't think his capture is going to change anything, because based on the limited look we got at him, via the news media and what have you, it does not appear that he's been running anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty pathetic, huh?
		Pretty pathetic.
		In other words, the way he looked, the way he was.
unidentified		Yeah, he hasn't been running anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think there's so many terrorists streaming into Iraq right now that you're absolutely right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And most of them are motivated not for Saddam one way or the other, but against us.
unidentified		I approached Al-Qaeda, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right on.
		I absolutely agree.
		They weren't there.
		Perhaps Al-Qaeda was not 911 was not all sprung from Iraq, but they're sure there now because they've been streaming in.
unidentified		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		Thank you very, very much for the call and take care.
		It's become a magnet for terrorists worldwide now to get to Iraq and to kill U.S. servicemen and women.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, hey.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		This is Douglas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Douglas, extinguish your radio for me, if you would, please.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		this is what happens with open lines uh...
unidentified		on screen you just Yeah, I have a comment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fire away.
unidentified		Anyway, when they found him in the hole, they should have put a New York City manhole cover over it and just forgot about him.
unidentified		And only we would have known where he was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, but of course it was very, you know, if nothing else, his capture was very important to show the Iraqi people that, hey, baby, it's really over.
		The terror, or the king of the terror, is gone.
		But I appreciate your suggestion about the animal cover.
		I suppose, in a way, that might have been a wiser suggestion than you might imagine than just later sort of find the body.
		I don't know about getting him alive.
		I don't know how good it is that we have actually captured him alive.
		I'm rather surprised, to be honest, with you.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, how's it going, Ardais?
unidentified		Finally got through to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Glad you made it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your name?
unidentified		My name's Jake, and I'm calling from Eugene, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, hey, hey.
unidentified		I'd just like to ask you real quick about you.
unidentified		Are you still a big South Park fan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, totally.
unidentified		You still watch the show?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, not as much as I used to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I never missed an episode of South Park.
unidentified		I remember you used to talk about it all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		But I was highly suspect about this whole Saddam thing.
		He had four or five body doubles all the time.
		And I'm just also highly suspect because this is so close.
		Oh, you mean you think we might have gotten one of the doubles?
		Well, it could be like the moon landing or something like that.
		It's just so close to Bush's re-election.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would the real Saddam be in a hole like that?
unidentified		I don't think there are a lot of people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or would you offer up a double in a hole like that?
unidentified		Or would you say it's Saddam just to give yourself some more clout?
unidentified		Just to say like, hey, look, we got Saddam.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
		You're not suggesting that we intentionally have declared the media and said we have Saddam when we don't.
		You are suggesting that.
unidentified		I am suggesting it.
		Look at how close it is to Bush's reelection campaign.
		This is only going to help Bush's poll results.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it probably will, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he has been struggling a little of late.
unidentified		And, you know, if it would have happened six months ago, I don't think it would have had the same impact that it does now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you think about the guy who called up and said Saddam was negotiating with the aliens, and so now the world's in big trouble?
unidentified		Well, yeah, I don't know about that one, Argyll.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't either.
unidentified		Well, I think he's in big trouble for things on his own.
		But as far as I'm not even sure that it's really him.
		I think it might be a whole staged operation just propaganda.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gotcha.
unidentified		You know what I'm saying?
unidentified		I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		No, I do.
		Thank you very much.
		I know exactly what you're saying.
		That you don't think it's him.
		That we lied.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, hi, this is Lou from Long Beach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yo, Lou.
unidentified		Yeah, I saw that thing on TV, and man, I tripped out because, you know, I'm an ex-Marine and I was in the First Gulf War.
		And man, when I seen this guy on TV, I was like, man, that's him, you know.
		And I felt like the weight off my shoulders was lifted, you know, because we didn't get him last time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we didn't, but we've really got him now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think it's better we have him alive than dead?
unidentified		You know, I think it was good that we got him alive.
		So, you know, it was like proof that we got this fool, you know.
		And there he is right there.
		So take a look.
		We got up and...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, no matter how he had died, if he had died, we would have been blamed for killing him.
		So he has a very good point there.
		Because everybody thought, why, you know, he wouldn't be coming back.
		The dead or alive part.
		It would just be dead.
		So maybe in a way we've proven something about ourselves.
		Which I think is good.
		I hope it's good.
		Anyway, more open lines.
unidentified		Unscreened Riffum Terum open lines coming up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast to Coast AM in the nighttime.
unidentified		The official website of Coast to Coast AM is www.coastacoastam.com.
		log on now Some of them want to get used by you.
		Some of them want to abuse you.
		Some of them want to be...
		Some of them need you, and you want to see the blues, and you know it don't come easy.
		You don't have to shout all these vows, you can even play them easy.
		Get up out of the past, and hold your sorrow.
		Could the future be a blast?
		It will soon be over tomorrow.
		I'm going to go.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call ART at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		God, I love breaking news.
		I really, I love breaking news.
		And I have a not very important observation about breaking news that I always find very entertaining.
		And that is the news began breaking shortly after 3 a.m., I think.
		Right after I got done, about an hour after the show last night.
		And then the official press conference didn't come until 4 a.m.
		And so for a long time, all of the news networks had nothing better to do, in fact, nothing at all, other than to wake up all the news anchors they could, have them come down, and then they got to question each other and sort of make news before the news.
		And that's one of the more entertaining things you can ever watch during a major piece of breaking news, and that is the anchors all having nothing to do but not answer each other's questions and talk to each other.
		the american media is a credible machine isn't it the In my opinion, the American news media has devolved to the point in this country where, frankly, it's an interesting thing.
		It's absolutely fascinating.
		Try it the next time there's really serious breaking news.
		The most serious, of course, is when they don't actually have the news.
		And just sit back and watch them do infotainment.
		In essence, interviewing each other and talking about what might be, sometimes for hours on end, without one scrap of real information.
		In other words, just a subject.
		No real hard news in the old style of news, but just a concept.
		And they can go with that endlessly.
		It's really an American cultural wonder.
		First time calling line, you're on here.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi, Art.
		Hello.
		I'm glad to be on your show.
		I'm calling from way over here in Western Prompt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're here in Prompt.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Listening to.
unidentified		Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, sir.
		Come on.
		You're in Prump.
		What radio station?
unidentified		Oh, K. N. K-N-Y-E.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		K-N-Y-E.
		95.1 here in Prompt.
		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even if I had to drag it from you.
		I understand.
		All right, so what's up?
		What do you think about the capture?
unidentified		Well, more on your topic of the news and how funny it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, isn't it a coincidence that first time callers, area code 775-727-1222.
unidentified		Fiasco, Saddam is caught.
		So now all that goes bye-bye.
		People will forget.
		And then it's just like after the WMD papers, you know, were revealed as a spun fraud.
		A CIA Agent's name, CIA agent's name is leaked.
		Is this a coincidence?
		Are there no coincidence?
		Or is this just a manipulative agenda?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'll tell you what.
		Tonight we're going to talk about all of that with Harry Helms.
		Now, I have always sort of lived on the outskirts of the topic of the shadow government in this country.
		But tonight we're going to leap into it with both feet.
		We're going to talk a little bit about pirate radio because you know my love for that subject.
		But beyond that, we're going to get into the shadow government, which is the second main topic that Harry Helms can talk on, and I guess one very close to his heart.
		So we're really going to jump into that with both feet tonight.
		Look forward to it.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Am I on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Canada, okay.
unidentified		And I want to congratulate President Bush and those troops for their capture.
unidentified		And I heard the news right after I listened to you last night on the radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		And I think he definitely should be tried in Iraq.
unidentified		He has done so much damage to the people over there and the soul of that country that I think it could be a start of a healing for their minds and their hearts if they do see him justice being served to him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think, and by the way, I certainly agree with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that the Bush administration will conclude how important it is that he be tried by his own people in Iraq rather than some international court?
unidentified		Yes, I do definitely.
		Actually, you know, I said to my father, we were talking about a week and a half ago, I said, you know, he's probably somewhere in the basement lined with lead, hiding, so they can't see him.
		I said, I wouldn't be surprised if it was under his own house.
		And I said, he's underground somewhere.
		And it was so, in fact, my dad called me so early this morning and said, they got him.
		I goes, I know.
		I've been listening all early in the morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did he look pathetic or what?
unidentified		You know what?
		He looked like a humbled, we both said he looked like a bum.
		This high, I could never get out of my mind.
		He stood on that balcony of his and shot that rifle, and everybody cheered.
		Then he shot it again.
		I said, he looks so stupid.
		And this man was so humbled, and he looked like a hobo that came off the alleys.
		And I said, there is right in front of the people.
		They've got to see him like that.
		No more is he that feared tyrant that, you know, is like that reigns over their minds and thoughts, you know, everywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's okay.
		Thank you very much.
		It's almost unanimous so far that he ought to be tried in Iraq.
		I wonder if that's what they'll really do.
		But obviously, it's certainly your point of view so far.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		This is David.
unidentified		I'm calling from Bryan, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, David.
unidentified		We definitely did the right thing in capturing him rather than killing him, because now we can show justice to these people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I guess it, you know, I said it earlier, had he been dead, however it happened, we would have always assumed there were orders not to take him alive.
		Until we do prove something by getting him alive.
		I mean, we do about ourselves.
		I guess that's right.
unidentified		We can't let the U.N. try him, though, because they'll try to bring up charges against the U.S. for various crimes they want to try to assess to us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably, yes.
unidentified		And also, this will have a great impact on the Iranian people who we're hoping will overthrow their own government and put a righteous government over there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another good point.
unidentified		And on your guest tonight, I believe one of the biggest conspiracies, besides what's been going on in the press, calling this country a democracy instead of a constitutional republic and banning hemp.
unidentified		I mean, it was William Randolph first who started the conspiracy against so-called marijuana, which was a Mexican slang term no one knew stood for the cannabis hemp plan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wonder if that's what hemp grows.
		I wonder if that'll really play a part in this.
		I'll ask Harry about this.
unidentified		It would add over, according to Rand, today it would add over a trillion dollars to our economy if we grew it.
unidentified		We could be off of Middle Eastern oil in six months if we started growing it properly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My goodness, been a lot of inflation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I heard a half trillion, but it's up to a trillion dollars now, huh?
unidentified		More than that.
		And back in 1938, cover story of Popular Science, February.
		It called hemp the world's first billion-dollar crop because of the machine that had just been coming on market to harvest it, turning it from a hand harvest to a mechanical harvest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You think we're fighting enough wars?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You figure it's time to call a stop to the drug war.
unidentified		Yo, it's a war on our civil rights.
		It denies the right to own property, the pursuit of happiness, the innocent unless proven guilty.
		They're saying they're committing crime by violating the government's religion of prohibition.
		They enable organized crime to make money.
		The terrorists get their money fixed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's really one of the only things when you are suspected of it, you can have your property seized.
		If you're later proven innocent, you get it back.
		But I mean, they can just take your property boom like that.
		And that doesn't seem really constitutional to me.
		How about you?
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		Good to hear you back on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Great to be here.
		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm on I-5 heading north, and I listened to 640 in L.A. All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's KFI, of course, the mighty one.
unidentified		KFI, the big one, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		LA, yes, sir.
unidentified		On the Saddam Hussein thing, I think he ought to be tried in Iraq, but I think each one of the tribes, the Shiite tribes, the Kurdish tribes, ought to send a representative, and he ought to be able to face each one of those tribes that he attacked and did these dastardly attacks to and have them judge him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think that's a superb idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think this administration, as I asked the last caller, will have the sense to recognize that that is the way to do this or some form of it as opposed to some great international war crimes?
unidentified		I think the international ought to stay out of it.
		I think it's Iraqi people.
		I think it's something that's just due.
		And they ought to be the ones that have to say what to do with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you.
		Listen, I hope that some people of substance Are listening this morning and listening to this random sample of opinion because it's very strong.
		It's obvious to me the American people would like to see him tried in his own land by his own people for the crimes he committed against them.
		So are you listening out there?
		You're on the Air Coast to Coast A.M. with Art Bell.
		Where are you calling from?
unidentified		Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I'm calling from Austin, Texas, 590 a.m., KLBJ.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Way to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thanks.
unidentified		All right.
		I kind of agree with you what you said about the media earlier.
		We got so many activists out there now that I think the government sometimes goes on what the media says.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what?
		In this case, maybe I'm hoping that's true and they're listening this morning and they're going, hmm, well, look at that.
		The American people would like him tried in his own country.
unidentified		Right.
		But in a way, it's kind of an oxymoron to have him tried in his country because the only person that's really controlled that government is him.
		So how can a country that's been under his control for so long, that have been brainwashed by him, try to do an actual prosecution on him?
		I think it would almost be impossible to try to prosecute him over there without having any kind of international law involved, if you catch what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or translated, how could he get a fair trial in Iraq?
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, how can you have a trial over there?
		I mean, their government is torn to pieces over there, and the only way you're going to be able to prosecute this guy right and to make sure that he gets what he deserves is having international law involved, having the U.S. involved, having the British involved to make sure that he pays for his crimes.
		I don't think he ought to be killed.
		I'm afraid if the Iraq government prosecutes him, they'll kill him right away.
		I think the guy ought to be stripped of everything he has, and he ought to sit and simmer for a while in a cell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's for a second, though, talk about the victims.
		There are Kurds, thousands of Kurds, family members of those who died in gas attacks where he killed the moss, right?
		Genocide, virtually genocide with chemicals.
		Don't those people have a right to have a word with regard to what should happen to this man?
unidentified		Oh, for sure, for sure.
		And I think he should die.
		I just don't think he should die right away.
		I think he ought to sit and simmer for a while and should be tortured for a while and feel what it's like to have everything stripped from you and to live in poverty.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		I think he ought to have a taste of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, oh, my.
		All right.
		Well, so a little torture.
		That inevitably comes up.
unidentified		Well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, that's what he did to them.
		Now, I think that it is sufficient for the very worst of murderers to take their life as punishment.
		In other words, I believe in the death penalty.
		I always have, and I don't believe in torture.
		But I do believe in the death penalty.
		So I'm afraid I can't get behind that one.
		But it always comes up, a situation like this.
		First time caller line, you are on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yes, Mr. Bell.
		My name is Larry.
		I'm in Phoenix, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You, Larry.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		And I think when they captured Saddam and showed his photograph, I think somebody should have put a real work for food sign in his hands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He looked like that, didn't he?
		He certainly did.
		I mean, if that was the real Saddam, he came out of there looking haggard, tired, beat, ready to be caught, ready to whatever, just sort of like, I've had enough of this.
		Now I'm finally down in this hole, and that's all I got.
		Take me out of here.
unidentified		That's right.
		That's right.
		That was pathetic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No other word for it.
		I agree completely.
		Pathetic is the word.
		But don't let that affect what else you know about Saddam.
		He was not a good guy.
		He did kill maybe hundreds of thousands of people.
		Hundreds of thousands of people.
		Perhaps that many.
		Wildcard line, you're on air.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, how you doing, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sir.
unidentified		Louis from New Jersey?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Louie.
unidentified		Now listen, everybody's taking this twist about the Hagrid old, Bonseri-looking man.
		As a Roman Catholic Christian, I'd like to maybe...
		I saw his eyes.
		I saw a man, a human being.
		Isn't this what it's all about?
		You know, to forgive.
		This comes down to our basic instincts, human beings.
		This guy is human, just like me, just like you are.
		Let's forgive.
		Let's turn the other cheek.
		That's all I got to say.
		I know a lot of people are going to think that's strange, but I think that's just a twist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's explore this a little bit, shall we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so forgive and forget.
unidentified		Not really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Today is a new day, and we are Christians, after all.
		So then how do we dispose of, well, maybe that's the wrong word.
		How do we handle Saddam from here, from your point of view?
		I mean, if you were in charge, what would you do?
unidentified		That is a $64,000 question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes.
unidentified		But at the beginning, I would probably, you know, I don't know if this is hard to say, but, you know, Bush can somehow take a page from maybe Tony Blair.
		And I really don't know how to express myself.
		Well, wait.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He could pardon him.
unidentified		That's a good idea.
		Very good.
		You like that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You like a pardon?
unidentified		I like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you just sort of, well, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, do you set him loose there back in Iraq?
unidentified		Well, not really.
unidentified		Maybe some community service.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A little community service.
unidentified		A lot of community service.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Taking care of maybe al-Qaeda writings on the wall or something.
		Well, you get it all.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, heart.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I wanted to talk about Saddam Hussein.
unidentified		It's a date I'm over the road in Nebraska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, my friend, you're on the air.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Talk.
unidentified		Yeah, I think what they ought to do with Saddam Hussein is I think they need to turn him over to the Israeli intelligence, the Mossad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		They'll squeeze this guy for every drop of information they can get from him.
unidentified		They'll let the Iraqis try him and let them execute his ass.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got you, all right.
		Uh, so to the maze first for a little uh massage for information and then give him to the Iraqis for disposal.
		What's the Rockies?
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are.
unidentified		Okay, uh, worry about President McClain.
		I think it was a waste of $25 million.
		He hasn't been running anything in that country for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't think so?
unidentified		That was him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You don't think so.
unidentified		Whatever problems that they had before they captured him, they're going to have for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you saying you think there was a shadow government there doing the real work?
unidentified		I don't know if it was a shadow government.
		I'm going to tell you that the man I saw today looks like he's been in custody evidently for a long time.
		You know, I don't know who he was, but people thought him Hussain.
		It doesn't look like they captured him this morning.
		But that's kind of beside the point.
		I don't think he's been running anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you.
		Goodbye and thank you.
		Not running a thing.
		You're on the air on the international line.
		Where are you?
unidentified		I am in Manitoba, Canada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Manitoba.
		All right.
		Welcome to the program.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off.
		That's always number one.
		And proceed.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yes.
		I'm just wondering, I'm kind of still baffled.
		Why did they even go after Saddam Hussein?
		Like, why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did they go after him?
unidentified		Wasn't the first thing they talked to the 9-11?
		thought he was behind that, but then he ended it.
		But then there was the weapons of mass destruction.
		Well, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we don't have those yet.
unidentified		And then finally, it's what liberating Iraq's people now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It did come down to that, yes.
unidentified		I just can't believe they're still excuse me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, sir, nevertheless, we do appear to have Saddam.
		So now what?
		That's the question of the hour.
		Now what?
		So now what?
unidentified		I don't know.
		I say they should try them in Iraq, but I still don't know even why they both are going after him, wasting all the money and lives.
		Uh-huh.
		You know what I'm saying?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I do.
		Yes.
		I don't know that I agree with it, but I know what you're saying.
		Sure.
		Actually, I was against the war, to be honest with you.
		I was pretty much against the whole concept in the first place, as you well know.
		I am nevertheless very pleased that the United States has this mass murderer in custody.
		And I think if you can draw any conclusions from what we've heard tonight in this first hour, it would be the majority of you calling, given a random sample, of course, think that he ought to be tried in his own country.
		that we should turn them over to the iraqis perhaps wait until the government's a little more stabilized than it is presently and then let them be tried there and We will be right back with Harry Helms.
		Stay right where you are.
unidentified		Find out more about tonight's guest.
		Log on to CoastToCoastAM.com.
		When you take my place, I think no one can take your place.
		Get hurt, get hurt.
		By the little things I see, I can put that smile back on your face.
		Ooh, you can dance, you can die, having the time of your life.
		Ooh, see that girl, watch that sea, you get the dancing queen.
		Friday night and the lights are low, looking out for a place to go.
		Where they play the right music, getting in the swing, you come to rock the game.
		Anybody could be that guy, not as young as the music's high.
		Want to take a ride?
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free 800-825-5033.
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		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if the world will ever get a group like ABBA that could harmonize like ABBA again.
		Will the world ever get that again?
		Probably, but not necessarily while we're here.
		It's been too long since I had this on.
		All right, coming up, we're going to have some fun.
		Harry Helms is the author of over a dozen books, mostly scientific books, technical topics, that kind of thing.
		His books include Computer Language Reference Guide.
		Ooh, maybe I can ask him about my big problem.
		Electronic Circuits Cookbook, all about ham radio, shortwave listening guidebook, and his latest Inside the Shadow Government.
		That's quite a leap for Harry or anybody else.
		He is a former editor for such publications as McGraw-Hill, an academic press, co-founder of LLH Technology Publishing.
		Now, he's a full-time writer and publishing consultant.
		He has written about Ham, Shortwave, and Pirate Radio for magazines like Popular Communications and Monitoring Times.
		In a moment, Harry Helms.
unidentified		In a moment, Harry Helms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We had so much fun with Harry Helms the first time he was on.
		I mean, after all, you know me and radio, right?
		Every single aspect of radio.
		I am in love with it, always have been, monitoring, listening to different things, as many as you can hear, amateur radio, ham radio.
		Just a blast, folks.
		And so Harry was natural for me.
		We're going to go down some different avenues with Harry tonight.
		But first, let's catch up.
		Harry, welcome back to the program.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		I'd like to catch up, Harry, if I could, with sort of the radio side of things before we get in a jump leap into the shadow government topic.
		So what's new since the last time you were on with regard to radio, any part of radio?
		And what's good monitoring?
		What's hot?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things that we discussed last time, Mark, was the Cuban numbers stations, the stations that broadcast groups of numbers in Spanish in blocks of five.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		These are known to be communications to agents in the field using what's known as the five, the one-heimpad method of decoding numbers, where the groups of numbers will be transmitted, the agent copies them down, subtracts them from another list of numbers, and then decodes the message.
		Now, this is a system where if you try to decode the message yourself, it's an exercise in frustration.
		The people at the national security agencies have supercomputers busy at it, and really there's no evidence they're any better than the rest of us, but certainly these transmissions are easy to hear throughout North America, and it's a bit exciting to say, hey, I'm listening to a message sent to an actual spy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, that's right.
		I mean, you'll come across a shortwave frequency, and you'll just hear some young lady, perhaps with a Spanish accent or not, going 51, 17, 14, 34, 6, just like that, in groups and groups and groups.
		And that's spy stuff, huh?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
		The Spanish numbers sound very much like the system used by the telephone company when you reach a discontinued number to spell out the new number.
		So you'll hear something like, ocho, dos, quattro, siete, siete, uno, uno, dos, cinco, siete.
		That's the pacing.
		Those are the five-digit blocks.
		You can hear these in North America from about sundown on the East Coast until about sunrise on the East Coast throughout the night.
		Now these are some frequencies that have been very active over the past couple of months.
		And so I'll give them for your listeners.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, please do.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		First one is 8010 kilohertz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got it.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		8097 kilohertz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got it.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		9063 kilohertz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is fun to listen to, folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		9323 kilohertz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		9323.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And 9908 kilohertz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		9908.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		These are all in the AM mode of your shortwave receiver.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And you can, one distinguishing characteristic of these stations, and one that indicates they are probably from Cuba, is that there's a very loud hum on these signals.
		and if you've listened to the shortwave transmissions from like radio hawana cuba you also hear it distinct hum from uh...
		older transmitters that have not been well maintained over the years and i suppose uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		the the local uh...
		I've got a little bit of echo here.
		I suppose also the fact that the local Cuban power supplies, kind of like the Russians in the old days, probably aren't that good.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		True, and also since the collapse of the Soviet bloc in the Soviet Union, those spare parts are hard to come by in Cuba.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		In fact, I guess the Cubans are still driving around a lot of old American vehicles, cars, you know, from the 50s and the 40s and the 30s.
		I mean, you see really old vehicles in Cuba.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		True.
		But these spy transmissions have long fascinated me because how often do those of us who sit at home in front of our shortwave radios actually get to match wits with the CIA and the National Security Agency?
		Well, you get to do that with this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Make your best case.
		I mean, the world has changed.
		To some degree, ham radio is threatened by the arrival of the internet and the computer.
		If you were to try to make your best case, Harry, about why people should still listen to shortwave and why it's still fun to listen to shortwave, what would you say?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Two things.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		One is that shortwave radio is simplicity is a virtue because when everything else fails, when the internet is down through denial of service attacks or too many users trying to access a certain dialect number, shortwave still gets through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well said.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It's the safety net for people who want to have access to the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it does give you that, doesn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Access to the world.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And at a remarkably low price compared to, say, a computer and internet, a high-speed dial-up connection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		The second thing is that for those of us who like a sense of adventure, trying to find these new stations or these unusual stations like these number stations or pirate radio stations, it's a bit like fishing.
		Some nights you turn on the radio, you tune around, you hear nothing new or unusual.
		Some nights you hear something that's quite surprising.
		It's that element of unpredictability that I think makes shortwave radio monitoring so compelling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Harry, how do you really feel about the pirates?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, these are people, after all, that are breaking the law, right?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That cannot be denied, and I certainly would not advocate that someone go out and operate a pirate station because there are some substantial penalties if you do get caught.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like $10,000 a day, and they'll take your equipment, and all kinds of bad stuff can happen to you.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Multiple bad things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Multiple bad things, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But people, I guess, do it anyway, and that puts it up there to be listened to, right?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		There's no restrictions whatsoever on listening to these communications or even attempting to contact the operators.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I were to listen to pirate radio, what kind of stuff would I likely hear?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Much of it, many pirate stations are operated by young people.
		So you'll hear the things that are dear to young people's hearts, such as rock, hip-hop music.
		Much of the programming is, frankly, rather amateurs from production value, even though it can be surprisingly funny.
		It's often scatological in parts.
		But it is certainly, I think, considerably different from anything you'll hear on the AM or FM bands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got a hot button question for you.
		If you had a station like the one you were just talking about playing hip-hop, I mean, obviously, from the FCC's point of view, it's a kid out there messing around.
		So you take that pirate station.
		Then let's consider a second pirate station, one in which somebody's a political activist and they don't like, let's say, the Bush administration.
		And so they're actively on the air every night transmitting their hate toward the Bush administration.
		Which one of those pirate stations do you suppose the FCC would pursue?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Frankly, the FCC has shown a greater tendency in the past to go after overtly political stations.
		There have been stations in the past operated by the Ku Klux Klan, by white supremacists.
		These have been busted over the ordinary run-of-the-mill pirate stations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think internally they've got a policy that perhaps is a little lenient when they know it's a kid playing around out there?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I think it's a policy of allocating their resources on how much attention the station is attracting.
		An overtly political or quasi-clandestine station, if you will, will attract more attention and perhaps make more of an impact in news media.
		Maybe we'll have more people complaining about.
		Whereas a station just playing music, other programming aimed at young people, well, that's no big deal.
		So I think it's just simply a matter of the squeakiest wheel getting the most grease.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then let's try this one, Harry.
		The reason that the majority of these kids put a pirate station on the air is because they love radio.
		And they're looking for any way at all to get into radio, to experience what it's like to broadcast.
		I know gazillions of people like this, Harry, because of what I do.
		They come to me all the time.
		And I was there myself.
		I was almost born on radio.
		I just plain love every aspect of it.
		And so that's what makes these pirates do what They do.
		Do you think, Harry, that we should have some avenue, some way, and I guess you could say CB or ham radios a way, and certainly they are, but I mean something else, some way that young people could legally do some small-scale operation.
		Should there be something?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		We are critically overdue for that, in my opinion.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Critically overdue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what would you set up, Harry?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		There are several regions.
		For example, let's say just above the expanded AM broadcast span from about 1700 to 1750.
		That's an area you need to across at night, and it's essentially debt.
		I could see, for example, authorizing low-power stations, say no more than 50 watts or so, into a limited antenna, maybe a quarter wave, in that range for a non-commercial broadcasting.
		There's also a little bit of leeway above and below the FM band that could be used, like say down from 87 to 88 perhaps.
		There are also a possibility with television going through all digital and new channel allocations for some frequency space to be already freed up there.
		So something that would be basically the broadcasting equivalent of CB radio, low power, short range, but with few restrictions and low-cost equipment.
		I think that is something not just for kids, but for every person who wants to go on the air and express an opinion.
		There's certainly that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Harry, I've been an advocate of this for I don't know how long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Some low-powered, now low-power radio and low-power television were both proposed and to some degree were passed, but large lobbyists kind of squashed the low-power radio business, so it's groups, you know, churches and that sort of thing, which is fine, but nothing for individuals really, right?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		The low-power FM initiative a few years ago was indeed adopted by FCC, but the technical standards the FCC imposed on these stations basically put just the administrative overhead of complying with the technical standards beyond the reach of the average person.
		It takes, as you said, some sort of church-based or community-based broadcaster to be able to afford a low-power FM station.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		you think that the now, of course, go back, Harry, to when the Federal Communications Commission took the 11-meter band away from the hams and they gave it to the CBers.
		A gigantic, incredible, monstrous mistake in every way you can imagine.
		I mean, 27 megahertz is not a local communications frequency most of the time.
		It's skip.
		It's a mess.
		It's become just sort of a bad land of people who are now encroaching on the 10-meter handband.
		I mean, it's a disaster up there.
		And I've got CB because it'll save your butt on the road.
		But it was a disaster.
		It could have been put up in VHF or somewhere else.
		So what do you think about that?
		I mean, you know, when you're proposing a little space above the broadcast band, is that going to turn into another CB band?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Freedom always carries with it some risks, including that people will be misbehaving to a degree.
		But then that's part of price tag for freedom.
		It's interesting that free speech applies to, say, if you want to do something in writing, you don't have to get government permission.
		If you want to publish a book, you don't need government permission.
		If you want to put up a website, you don't need government permission.
		But if you want to send something out on the airways, which theoretically belong to all the people of the United States, then you have to get the government's permission.
		And I think that we've been a bit too restrictive over the average citizen's access to the airways with their own transmitted equipment over the years.
		Yes, we need some standards, but the way it is now, we have restrictions and no standards whatsoever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're sort of admitting then there would be with space at the top of the broadcast band, maybe either side of the FM band, whatever, there would be trouble as a result of it, but you're saying that's part of the price of freedom.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Freedom is not always orderly nor neat.
		There's going to be always a certain messiness with any sort of freedom.
		The thing is, the benefits of freedom outweigh, I think, the downsides of people abusing those privileges.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Y'all, that's a good answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think any such proposal has a chance of really making it through, Harry?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		in all honesty i would be extremely dubious uh...
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		i think perhaps something that would be But I think at this stage, being realistic, I think the odds are quite long that the FCC would do such a thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are mysterious sounds on the shortwave bands.
		Harry, lately on the 40-meter handband, there has been a 100 kilohertz wide sound.
		I don't know if you, did you ever hear me play that on the air?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You did.
		Do you have any thoughts at all about that signal?
		It was so interesting because after I brought it up, it had been there for months and months.
		I brought it up and it disappeared.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That tends to happen when you talk to the FCC about it and you have some sort of media connection that could publicize it or write about it.
		I've had similar experiences.
		I think what you heard, Art, was probably a variation of the Overt the Horizon radar system, which uses the ionosphere.
		Sends a radio signal up there, refracts off the ionosphere, hits the ocean surface, it echoes back up to the ionosphere, and it is received at a location near the transmitting site.
		And this can be used to track such things as small ocean vessels, submarines that have briefly surfaced, things like that, which cannot be readily tracked by satellites or ground-based radar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Exactly correct, Harry.
		I think that's what it was myself, and the majority of opinion after I played it on the air was that it was that.
		So you're with the strong majority on that, Harry.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And we also have people up in Alaska of HAARP doing all sorts of interesting things with our ionosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But yes, we talked about HARP last night, and I'd wager you probably heard the program.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do you feel about HAARP?
		Knowing as much as you do about radio and what it can and can't do, you're very knowledgeable, and you got to hear the program on HAARP last night.
		What do you think?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		My pet theory is that HARP is actually some sort of weapons-related project intended to disrupt or disturb shortwave communications, particularly the guidance systems of missiles,
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		by pumping so much energy into the ion sphere that it becomes highly absorptive of all radio signals, thereby disrupting shortwave communications, or perhaps playing tricks with the guidance systems of missiles that would be coming in over the North Pole.
unidentified		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty heavy stuff.
		no question about it so you you think that uh...
		Are you familiar with the BPL, Harry?
		Do you know what that stands for?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Broadband over power lines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Broadband over power lines.
		Now, there is this scheme, folks.
		It's really interesting, to turn all of the power lines in America, I mean all of the power lines in America, into delivery systems for the internet so that we could deliver broadband to every home in the United States.
		Isn't that right, Harry?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Along with generating a good bit of radio interference in the process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, I was going to get to that part right after the break, and that's what we're going to do.
		We're at the breakpoint.
		Harry Helms is my guest.
		He knows about radio, and we will address the BPL broadband over the power lines issue in a moment.
unidentified		And then, and then, boom, bye, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll talk about the shadow government.
unidentified		Abumba, abumba, abumba.
		We'll talk about the shadow government.
		Abumba.
		He came from somewhere back in her long ago But Sarah better fool don't see Trying hard to recreate what had yet to be created Once in her life she musters a smile For his nostalgia tear Never coming near what he wanted to say Only to
		realize it never really was She had a place in his life He never made her dangerous As she rises to her apology Everybody else what should they know Who's
		watching her go And the party will be here To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is this incredible thing called Broadband Over-the-Power Lines, or BPL, that most Americans probably weren't even aware of.
		And there's been this intense, gigantic fight going on between those of us who use the radio spectrum and people who saw dollar signs in their eyes.
		It would have been a national tragedy.
		I'll tell you all about it.
		So will Harry in a moment.
unidentified		The End.
unidentified		The End All right, one more time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Broadband over the power lines, BPL.
		A monstrous controversy going on, and here's why.
		Because power companies and internet providers and, oh, I tell you, they just saw dollar signs like you would not believe.
		And the idea was to transfer the internet over power lines.
		You know, the ones going out in front of your house?
		Those long lines that really are antennas.
		I mean, they're unshielded wires that carry electricity.
unidentified		And, well, they thought, well, you could carry the internet, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there's just one little hitch in that idea.
		And that hitch, of course, is that it would produce noise.
		It would wipe out the short wave band.
		It would wipe out ham radio.
		It would wipe out CB.
		It would wipe out international broadcasters.
		It would wipe out, well, you know who it would wipe out?
		It'd wipe out FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
		And they just filed against BPL, and so a lot of people are going, looks like we may have dodged a bullet, because the last I heard, FEMA said, look, our stuff won't work if you go ahead with this idea.
		Do you think BPL is going to be dead because of that?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I certainly hope so, Art, because in addition to the short wave bands, if anyone is out there listening to Coast to Coast AM on an AM broadcast band station, BPL will also do a number on that.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Listeners may have noticed in the past when they're out in their car listening to AM radio and they pass their power line, that loud buzz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it gets real noisy as you go to the power line.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Now imagine that buzz not being restricted to near a power line, but virtually anywhere in the United States.
		And you hear that noise 24-7.
		So unless you're within a very short radius of an AM broadcast station, if the PL were implemented, you wouldn't be able to hear it.
		It would be, for all intents and purposes, the effective end of AM radio reception outside of a few miles of the transmitter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And so much more, Harry, would have been interfered with, effectively dead.
		And it looked like the FCC was in favor of BPL.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That is one of the more incomprehensible stances the FCC has come up with in recent years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unless.
		Here's what I thought, Harry.
		Unless the FCC knew in the end it was going to get killed and they sort of went along with some people just to say, hey, we gave it the college try.
		I mean, that's all I can imagine.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		There's certainly that.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And the other part is, you know, many of the people in the FCC making decisions regarding technical matters are lawyers, MBAs, and other people without inadequate technical background.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Now, the other thing about BPL that was puzzling to me is that, yes, those power lines are good radiators of signals, but the Internet is two-way.
		You have to send material messages into the Internet, into those power lines.
		That is a hacker's dream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really is a hacker's dream, isn't it?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It's almost as if the FCC was saying, okay, we're going to make it easier for hackers to hack into your dial-up Internet connection.
		And that's what BPL would have been.
		You would probably have widespread hijacking of email addresses, of great theft of Internet service.
		So I saw it not just as dangerous for radio listeners and other users of the radio spectrum, such as police, fire, and emergency services, it would have been a nightmare for users of the Internet Via BPL, who would suddenly find that their website or their email address had been hijacked and used by other people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It almost really would have been over for monitoring and well, it would have been over.
		I mean, it would have killed, potentially killed short wave.
		It's incredible.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Well, also look at the impact upon military communication.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, well, of course, that's what FEMA essentially was saying.
		The military is yet to chime in, I think, but surely they will.
		Hopefully, this is deader than a doornail.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I certainly hope so, simply because it would not just been bad for us who are interested in the radio hobby or radio listening.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It would have been bad for average consumers, including internet users.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Having said all this, let's now take the giant leap, Harry.
		You have just written a book.
		And first of all, I guess I'd like to know, how do you get from being interested in, you know, in radio and monitoring, which is kind of a technical thing, to writing a book about the shadow government?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It came about, Art, years ago when I first visited a site along the eastern Sierra of California called Manzanar, which was the site of a relocation camp for Japanese Americans during World War II.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I have had an interest in ghost towns and archaeological sites, and suddenly I saw what appeared to be a couple of Japanese pagodas against the Sierra Nevada mountains.
		Checking it out, I got into the history of the place and found out about the several thousand Japanese Americans who were relocated there during World War II.
		And as I got into the history, it turned out these people were American citizens.
		Most of them were American citizens.
		None of them were charged with espionage or any other crime, nor were they ever convicted of a crime.
		They were kept there for the duration by a direct order of the president, not an act of Congress.
		And they were basically held as prisoners in their own country.
		And I started to say, how is this possible?
		And as I dug deeper into it, I discovered that the mechanisms, the tools that allowed President Roosevelt to order people on the basis of a race to be held on a military camp indefinitely, those tools were still in place, still valid, could still be used by an American president, and in fact have been greatly expanded over the years.
		The term shadow government is not original with me.
		This came from a May 2002 article in the Washington Post.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's try this.
		Define for me, define for me what you mean when you say shadow government.
		Define it.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		The shadow government is the collection of laws, court decisions, facilities, procedures, and tools by which the president, upon declaration of a state of national emergency, can basically circumvent constitutional government and impose his will directly through a device known as an executive order.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I understand the fear, Harry, attached to that.
		Honestly, I do.
		And I have some of it myself, but.
unidentified		We have to have something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Awful as it sounds, there has to be a contingency, does there not?
		Particularly in the days in which people drive airplanes into buildings and things like that, there has to be a way to continue, to govern, to get the word out, to have civilization, no matter what might happen.
		Don't we need that?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		We need, indeed, some standby contingency plans.
		However, the point of my book is that these plans have gone far beyond prudent, rational safeguards for the event of a sudden nuclear attack.
		They have become so expansive and so open to misuse that it's where these powers could actually be a greater threat to our long-term liberties and constitutional rights than the external threats.
		For example, I used a phrase, this happens when the president declares a state of a national emergency.
		Well, what constitutes a state of national emergency?
		Simply put, whatever the president feels is a state of national emergency.
		You might remember, 1971, President Nixon imposed a declared a state of national emergency, and he froze wages and prices for several weeks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he did.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Now, where in the Constitution does it say that he has that ability?
		And it so happens that he said that the unstable U.S. balance of payments constituted a national emergency.
		Well, the president, when he declares the state a national emergency, that state remains in effect for six months before Congress can overturn it.
		So what would constitute a state of national emergency?
		That he might lose a re-election campaign?
		That he might be impeached?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, that's getting down to the meat of it.
		Is it your contention?
		And there were rumors, for example, that President Nixon was going to do something like you're talking about right now instead of leaving office, that he was going to declare some kind of state of emergency and suspend the Constitution, and we were suddenly going to not be a democracy anymore.
		Those rumors were out there.
		Actually, you know what?
		Those rumors have been out there, frankly, for every president, I think, since I've been alive, you know, that somebody would soon do this.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Well, we do know that in the final days of the Nix administration, his chief of staff, General Alexander Haig, had all communications and written directives coming out of the president's office passed by his desk first.
		And he imposed that only in the last few weeks of the Nix administration.
		He never said why he did it, but it is widely assumed that he was worried that President Nixon would try exactly what you Described here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You believe he was worried about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are some who think that Alexander Haig actually had plans of his own along those lines, which you obviously believe the first.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I tend to believe the first, but certainly the second cannot be ruled out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, most people believe the second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they all remember the moment when he stood up and said, well, I'm in charge here at the White House or whatever it was he said.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it was a Fordian slip.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you think these powers have now been put in place to the point where a president with evil intent could, in fact, turn us overnight from a democracy into a dictatorship.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		As I point out in my book, I include in a very lengthy appendix the complete text of several of these presidential executive orders, the most sweeping of which were signed and introduced during the Nixon and Clinton administrations.
		When the president declares the state of the national emergency now, for whatever reason, he can do, like President Roosevelt did in World War II, detain indefinitely any group of Americans for whatever reason he sees fit without filing charges, without legal proceedings, without legal representation.
		In other words, you'd be no better off than the Al-Qaeda prisoners at Guantanamo right now.
		He can seize private property, including your auto, your home, your computer, furniture, whatever.
		He can order you to work at specified jobs.
		He can seize your bank accounts.
		He can seize control of all radio and TV stations.
		He can control access to food and medical supplies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that's a lot to even begin to tackle here.
		But I'll stop you at radio and television.
		As a matter of interest, Harry, how do you imagine an administration would seize control of all broadcasting?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I would think that first you would go to the major networks and broadcasting concerns, the major broadcasting media groups and do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I mean is, is there some great master switch that they can throw and take control of virtually everything?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		No great master switch, but they would send out orders and saying, here's where you're going to get your program via this line feed, and that's the line feed you would use if you wanted to stay on the air.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		If you refuse to comply, some soldiers could come down and they could seize it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just imagining such a world is outlandish, Harry.
		I own a little radio station here in Puram, right?
		Mm-hmm.
		And to imagine that somebody would order me to take a certain feed or else is so far beyond what I know and feel as an American that I just can't even imagine it.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That's the main reaction people have when the subject of shadow government comes up, because it sounds so inherently preposterous that you say this cannot be.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		If I told you on September 10, 2001, however, that a group of young Arab males armed with Nazi Morton box cutter knives would in less than 24 hours kill over 3,000 Americans and basically destroy two major landmarks in Washington, New York, would you believe that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Right.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And it's the things that are most unthinkable that sometimes we have to think about in order to prevent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		That makes me jump over on the other side.
		The fact of the matter is, we now know all too well that kind of thing can happen.
		So again, you know, these things that are so extreme that you're talking about, and they are terribly extreme.
		How do you prepare to fight something like that or even worse without having this kind of stuff in place?
		And I think you agree.
		Some of it has to be in place.
		So how do you shepherd all this?
		How do you have oversight?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		You know, to protect freedom, we don't have to trash the Constitution.
		What I do propose in my book is that we simply develop openly a system, a methodology in the Constitution by which we will handle catastrophic events.
		For example, a nuclear strike, terrorist event, or something else that, for example, would remove everyone in the presidential line of secession.
		Let's put in the Constitution how we would reconstitute and restore our constitutional democratic government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're talking about an actual constitutional amendment here, right?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it would outline it for me.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And once people knew what would be done, how it would be handled, I think you would have far greater acceptance of it than some of these sub-rows of things which are hidden under the government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's scary.
		I agree.
		Go ahead and outline the kind of change constitutionally you would see.
		I mean, what roughly would it say?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It could be something such as this.
		If everyone in the presidential line of secession were killed, the governors or surviving governors of the states would then elect a replacement president to serve out the remainder of the term or some other specified periods.
		The same thing would be that, or we could say that in the event everyone in the presidential line of secession is killed, the governors of states, say maybe an order of population or admission to the union or whatever formula you would use, would come up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're just addressing secession now.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so but that doesn't tell me what safeguards and powers you would have to place in the hands of that ultimately elected person to deal with a potential emergency.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		There are already plenty of national emergency powers on the books which are known and open.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, right, but according to you, too many.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Too many, and also too many without the accountability of the people.
		At least here in the Constitution, we'd have accountability to the people, to the state legislatures, to the state governors, and to the people who elect them.
		What has happened now is that there has been a cleavage between power and the accountability at this level.
		And this is the thing that disturbs me because many of these powers are not being used to Fight terrorism or ensure domestic security.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me be devil's advocate, Harry.
		Those powers that we're talking about, extreme as they are, are put in place precisely so they can be wielded by, for example, one individual, who, the President of the United States.
		Why?
		Because if you had all kinds of oversight and procedural things you would have to go through, you'd never get anything done.
		And if you were, or at least not fast enough, and if you were facing an immediate emergency, somewhere along the line, somebody's got to act real quickly.
		And bureaucracies and committees don't do that.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		You need that, but also I think you need closer definition, for example, of what would constitute a national emergency.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Right now, it's up to the whim of the president.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, how about somebody planting a big, dirty bomb in one of our cities and notifying us, or a big real bomb, whatever, you know, something awful about to hit us?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would kind of qualify as a state of national emergency, right?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It certainly would, but as I point out in the book, since 1933, for all but nine months of history, the United States has been operating under one or more presidentially declared states of national emergency.
		Now, that's a little bit too broad.
		Sure, we've had some legitimate national emergencies and matters of grave crisis during those times, but certainly not every single month but nine since 1933 has been a moment of national emergency.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it right there.
		Oh, boy.
		Headaches, indeed.
		Nothing but heartaches, in fact.
unidentified		Nothing but heartaches, in fact.
		Nothing but heartaches, in fact.
		It seems so distant, 26 miles away, Rested in the water, it's so really dark.
		It might work for anyone, even the Navy Hood, Would put me to my island here.
		26 miles so near yet high, I swim with just some water wings in my guitar.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west to the Rockies, call ARC at 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach Art Bell by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you, folks, think of it as maybe, I don't know, how about an internment camp for wrong-thinking Americans?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can I mean a good one?
unidentified		26 miles across the sea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're talking about the shadow government, and a lot of times when I talk about shadow government or I conceive of it, I think of things like that.
		You know, internment camps and that sort of thing.
		We'll touch on all of that.
		Be assured of it.
		Stay right there.
		Harry Helms is my guest.
unidentified		Harry Helms is my guest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, okay, how about it, Harry?
		Internment camps.
		Is that something, you know, there's always rumors of it.
		I mean, you hear these internet rumors that pilots have been seeing these sequestered off internment camps, waiting for wrong-thinking Americans who are going to be on the wrong side of an executive order, that kind of thing.
		You've heard about all that, right?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		In fact, I think many of these reports got their start back in 1984 when the news first came out of something called RECS 84, or Readiness Exercise 84.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		This was an exercise conducted in the Reagan White House, headed up by Colonel Oliver North, which was to simulate what would happen if there would be a revolution in Central America, sending a great number of people north of the border, illegally north of the border, and what would we do with this?
		And Rec 84 was a plan to house several hundreds of thousands of these people on military camps in temporary housing.
		These would not be the formal wood structures, but tents and temporary structures of that nature at all large military camps.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're telling me this was not originally for wrong-thinking Americans, politically disagreeable people to be tossed in?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Not originally, but of course you can house a right-thinking and a wrong-thinking person just as easily in the middle.
		This is one that came to light during the Iran-Contra hearings in 1987.
		That's where it first came to light about Rex 84.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was that, if I remember during the Iran-Contra hearings, was that sort of briefly brought up and then squashed real quick?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That came up during an exchange between Oliver North and Senate Representative Jack Brooks of Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember exactly what Ollie North said or something close?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Ollie North did not even get a chance to ask the question.
		Senator Brooks first broke to Colonel North asking if he had taken part in a plan known as Readiness Exercise 84.
		And at that point, Brendan Sullivan, who was Colonel North's attorney, immediately said, Mr. Chairman, that's classified as Senator Daniel Inouye of Hawaii, then informed Representative Brooks that that could not be discussed in open forum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's right.
		I remember now.
		That's right.
		So where do we stand with that?
		Is that still...
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		You might remember during the Clinton administration, many refugees were brought over from Bosnia and temporarily housed on military camps.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I want to play devil's advocate again.
		Let's say that Harry Helms is president.
		And let's say that the big news of the day is that there's about to be a bloody, bloody revolution in Mexico and that unrest has become out of control in Mexico.
		I'm not saying all this is going to happen.
		I'm just saying let's say that's the news of the day.
		And the possibility is that hundreds, well, no, let's make it millions of Mexicans would flee such a bloody civil war and come across the border.
		Now, Mr. President Helms, we know that's what we're facing.
		We don't have enough troops, nor can we simply mow people down on the border as they try to flee a war, Mr. President.
		So what do we do?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I think we could do a much more effective job of suing the border than your question presupposes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you do?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
		Particularly when you're talking about people who would be arriving largely on foot through open territory.
		Now, we could shut down major highways and such, but there would be ways of being able to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess what I'm asking, Mr. President, is would you turn them back to possibly assure death in the middle of a bloody revolution, or would you accept them across the border?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		You might make some limited exception of people, but you would actually have to, if you're going to have a nation, you need to have secure borders.
		That's the definition of a nation.
		You can defend your own borders.
		I think this sort of large-scale housing of several hundreds of thousands would not be in anyone's interest because it would simply encourage more people to come.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you, as president, then would order some sort of real seal to the border?
		Yes, indeed.
		Even if that meant the taking of life, if necessary?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		If it would be necessary to protect American life, I would have no hesitancy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then you think this whole Rex business is ludicrous and could be used for the wrong thing.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is the key thing.
		Again, I don't want to say that we don't need any contingency plans whatsoever or that we can just simply get by in this world and go and tension.
		My problem with this is that the definition of what constitutes an emergency, namely it's defined by the President for whatever reasons he sees fit, is far too elastic, and that many of the provisions of these, particularly those that affect the rights and constitutional rights and privileges of American citizens, are far too expensive.
		For example, the September 11th attacks were not caused by American citizens freely exercising their constitutional rights.
		And restricting the constitutional rights of citizens would not have prevented those attacks more future attacks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It is a failure, rather, for the various agencies of the United States to coordinate and share the information they have, such as between the various FBI offices, the Immigration and Naturalization Services, and these other agencies, governments, to properly coordinate and use the available information and to enforce the available laws on the book.
		We now know, for example, that most of the September 11th hijackers were here illegally.
		So my point is that rather than this huge, secret, under-the-table collection of laws, plans, contingencies, what we really need is more effective and focused enforcement of the laws that we already have on the book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but Harry, again, playing that devil I do so well, we live in a modern world where we have GE, the Internet, and all of these very fast, very electronic, very effective means of communication.
		And those communication channels can be used to plan bad things as well as good.
		And so I understand, for example, the Fourth Amendment and our rights to privacy.
		But then again, I also understand our government's need, if they're even going to try and prevent another tragedy in this country, to get hold of, sift through a lot of this information, and that's going to run smack into the Fourth Amendment 1,000 miles an hour.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I'm wondering, though, how much of this is germane to a task?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		You are probably aware of a program that was floated briefly last year called the Total Information Awareness Program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		A brainchild of Admiral John Poindexter, also of Ran-Contra fame.
		It would have gathered such information as your prescription drug records.
		It would have gathered such information as which movies you rent from major movie rental outlets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Books you read at the library.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so I'd like to know how, for example, knowing that you have a certain medicine for high blood pressure or that you prefer to watch kung fu flicks, how this ties into preventing terrorism?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I failed to see the link, and I see the potential for abuse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm going to have to continue as a devil.
		It doesn't, Harry, is the answer.
		And all of that information would be completely useless and irrelevant from the point of view of trying to stop an act of terrorism.
		However, it may just be that one piece of information, one email sent, one communication, one telephone call, one something could stop another bunch of airplanes from bumping into buildings real hard.
		And maybe it could, Harry.
		You can't deny that fact.
		It might.
		And so where and how do we draw that line about what our government can and can't listen to in our defense?
		They are here supposedly for our welfare, safety.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		You do what every cop does as part of their investigative procedure, namely you focus on the likely suspects.
		Even if the government wanted to, it clearly doesn't have the capacity to monitor all of our phone communications, all of our emails, all other aspects of our lives.
		So you have to focus on the people who are most likely to be perpetrators of a certain crime.
		In this case, as we've now seen September 11th, if the FBI had followed up on credible reports they were getting from flight schools that there were students from Middle Eastern nations who were interested in learning how to steer planes once they were aloft, jet airplanes, but not interested in learning how to take off or land them, that constitutes a red flag.
		And that's the sort of thing you should be following up on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, that's also really good 2020 hindsight.
		But yes, it should certainly create a red flag.
		But again, that's hindsight.
		And there's a lot of things in the world you could miss.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And the more data you gather from unlikely suspects, the wider the net you cast, then the more data you're going to gather that is extraneous to the thing you are trying to discover, and you just gum up the gears chasing dead ends.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you wouldn't allow any electronic eavesdropping?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I'd allow it in the same circumstances that we traditionally have allowed it, namely upon a warrant to conduct such surveillance issued by a court of competent authority.
		We don't have to protect ourselves by trashing the Constitution.
		We don't have to destroy democracy in order to save it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the conundrum, all right.
		And it really does come down to that, to potentially destroying that which we are trying to protect.
		So, you know, when I first heard about the shadow government, and there are indeed some people who feel this, Harry, I always thought what was meant by that was a government behind everything we see, a power behind every congressman, every senator, even the President of the United States, a power that's really pulling the strings and orchestrating everything that's happening.
		And you don't exactly believe that, do you?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I don't see that.
		What I do see are people who potentially have the power to do certain things in the event of a national emergency who could abuse that power.
		FEMA is obviously one such candidate.
		The National Security Agency is another.
		I see where national security is used and invoked not so much to legitimately protect essential government secrets, but to cover up perhaps mismanagement, wasteful spending, misapplication of funds, and outright failures.
		This is what I see, and it's not really some master plan that came about when some people got in a secret room and they decided, okay, this is what we're going to do.
		It came about over years, dating from the National Security Act of 1947, and many seemingly innocuous, minor laws that were passed that over time have allowed the enormous accumulation of power and the potential for abuse in one man, namely the President of the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess I would ask you now, if you see this giant collection of dangerous possibilities, how do you turn it back?
		How do you make these things begin to disappear?
		Because once enacted, they're part of a giant global secrecy that surrounds this whole thing.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I would begin in the Constitution by including a definition of what constitutes a national emergency.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		For example, I think we could all agree that military action against the United States or a terrorist attack on par with, say, September 11th would certainly constitute a national emergency.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Maybe a catastrophic national event like a magnitude 8 earthquake in California, something of this nature, which clearly would demand quick, sudden, and decisive action to save lives.
		Yes, that's quite clear.
		But we've had national emergencies declared for such things as the trade balance of payments being out of kilter, or to protect snail darters, or for some other very minute, almost irrelevant reason.
		We need to tighten up on that considerably.
		We also need to, because when the Constitution was framed, the possibility of the sudden loss of the executive and legislative branches in one day wasn't considered a possibility.
		We need to include provisions for restoring a constitutional government, electing replacement members of the legislative and executive branches as soon as possible and spell that out in the Constitution.
		Finally, we need to have some clear constitutional restrictions on when and how the military can be used in civilian law enforcement, because that is perhaps the most odious and potentially dangerous aspect of the shadow government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Harry, how close do you think we've been to the invocation of these kind of powers?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have we come that close?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It is known that on certain occasions, such as the Los Angeles riots of 1992, We were very close to that.
		In fact, some military units were used in the latter stages of those riots.
		It's known that there was a partial activation of the shadow government on September 11, 2001, when Vice President Cheney was taken on that day from Washington to Mount Weather, a large underground facility in Western Virginia, which if the shadow government has a capital, that's it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it, huh?
		Do you think, Harry, that it's possible that a state of emergency could be declared and that the problem or emergency could be handled and then we would just simply slide back into constitutional government?
		Or do you think that there is a substantial chance all of this has grown so dire that once we cross that bridge, we well might not come back?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I would ask the question, how many times has government ever received an increase in its power or its ability to impact our lives and has ever voluntarily returned such power to the people?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		The answer is very seldom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very rarely.
		Very rarely.
		So it would be your view then that if we really went off the cliff with this and began to invoke the really serious aspects of this, Harry, that we might not come back.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I could see us lapsing to a state of this permanent national emergency leading to a permanent curtailment of certain key rights, particularly those relating to freedom of expression, assembly, property ownership rights, those sorts of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Those are some pretty serious rights you're talking about, Britain.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Very fundamental rights and the rights that make us America in the first place.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And that's why I say we have to be careful that we're not trying to, with our efforts to protect ourselves, we wind up destroying the very fabric of this nation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would Mount Weather be the capital of the new shadow government should it all come cascading down?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Mount Weather is an underground facility originally built to withstand a direct hit from the Soviet ICBM that can support up to 1,000 people for 30 days totally cut off from the outside world.
		Above it, you have the FEMA Training Center, which conducts training exercises for regional FEMA personnel and exercises.
		And it is, in effect, this place that in the event of a really catastrophic national emergency, such as a nuclear strike or an actual or impending terrorist attack with weapons of mass destruction, this is where essential civilian leaders would go, along with the military support staff, to basically run the government from with underground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so is that a yes?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I presume then that the broadcast industry, those radio stations that I'm speaking on right now, would be singing a new tune, one that would be coming from Mount Weather.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Mount Weather has complete radio and TV production facilities within it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it really?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would all of this be accomplished through the use of the emergency action system?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Emergency broadcast system.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it's got a new name now, actually.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That is what that would, in national emergency, yes.
		That's what it would be.
		That is what all stations would be broadcasting, the feed that it got from there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I'll hold it right there.
		You know, for most Americans, it's impossible to almost even contemplate that such an un-American, anti-constitutional thing could ever be done by anybody, president or otherwise.
		Most of us just can't believe it can occur.
		Hey, you know, look around the world at what has happened elsewhere and ask yourself.
unidentified		I sat at a night on a downtown, working for my FBI, sitting in a nail-topping man, with your father's father's father.
		I sat at a night on a downtown, working for my FBI, sitting in a nail-topping man, with your father's father's father.
		I sat at a night on a downtown, working for my FBI, sitting in a nail-topping man, with your father's father.
		I sat at a night on a downtown, working for my FBI, sitting in a nail-topping man, with your father's father.
		To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
		The first-time caller line is area code 775-727-1222.
		To talk with Art Bell from east of the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
		From west of the Rockies, call 800-618-8255.
		International callers may reach ART by calling your in-country sprint access number, pressing option 5, and dialing toll-free 800-893-0903.
		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Imagine waking up one morning and walking outside your house and seeing U.S. military, U.S. Marines lining your street on every street corner.
		New instructions for everybody.
		Times had changed overnight.
		Could it happen?
		Well, Harry Helms obviously thinks so, and I know a lot of you do too, and I'd like to give you an opportunity to talk about it.
		So, you get with your phones, and I'll get you with Harry.
		We live in safe America, right?
		Could you wake up, say, 2, 2:30, 3 o'clock in the morning one morning to the sound of gunfire outside your house and hear the military en masse beginning to take things over?
		Harry, could such a nightmare scenario really happen?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
		As I note in my book, in the 90s, the U.S. military began conducting numerous exercises in major American cities such as Miami, Chicago, Houston, where it was the injection of troops to take command and control of certain areas.
		There has been, since the 1960 urban riots, a plan called Operation Garden Plot, which calls for the use of U.S. military forces in urban areas.
		This has been revised numerous times since the mid-1960s.
		It's still operational.
		And as I point out in my book, surveys of troops, a group of U.S. Marines done by a professor with a U.S. War College, show that over a quarter of active duty troops indicated they would be willing to fire upon U.S. civilians, unarmed civilians, if so ordered by their superiors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, that's a sobering statistic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was what percentage again, please?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		The exact percentage would be that 26.34% would be willing to fire upon civilians if so ordered by their superiors.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And this was done in 1994 study by Lieutenant Commander Ernest Cunningham for a degree, a master's degree he was working on at the Naval University.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember the big controversy about all of that.
		But here I go.
		I'm going to play devil's advocate again.
		If 20-some odd percent would shoot fellow Americans, that means 70-some-odd percent wouldn't.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That's the comforting thing.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That would be comforting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and so wouldn't that, on the face of it, just even based on those outrageous numbers, wouldn't that prevent what we're talking about right now from occurring because not enough would, in fact, enough might fight back in that given situation to prevent even the thought of someone implementing something like that?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		But we might be in a situation then where you could perhaps compose special units from those 26% who answered in the affirmative for these sorts of operations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hadn't thought of that.
		All right, I'd like to begin to put together some phone calls here.
		Let's see how we do.
		My phones are acting strange tonight, but let's try.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Hello?
unidentified		Hello, this is William.
unidentified		I'm currently going up a mountain pass in Colorado in the snow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the way up a mountain pass in Colorado in the snow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right?
unidentified		Well, anyway, a couple statements I wanted to make, and then mention a book to you.
		What you were talking about about the internment camp, Bill Cooper wrote a book that had some of that stuff in it.
		He'd contacted the military police in Lavagna, Michigan, and they would not deny it, but they said at least you called the right place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know anything about that, Harry?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I have heard of rumors of those types of camps in Michigan that he's referring to, yes, indeed.
unidentified		Okay.
		Well, they're just the military police in charge of it.
		But a federal lawsuit was brought in the Houston federal court, and it was dismissed because they were saying it violated people's civil rights to set up internment camps.
		And the judge wouldn't hear the case because he said as long as everyone is treated the same, it doesn't violate your civil rights.
		But anyway, there's a book by Bill Cooper called The Hold a Pale Horse, which covers a lot of this information, has a lot of documents in it.
		And if you haven't seen it, you might be interested in it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm very, very well aware of it.
		Thank you.
		I'm always, I mean, this is such an incredibly sensitive subject.
		And the fact, I'll tell you, Harry, I'm a little bit comforted by the fact that I can go on the air and talk about it still, about what you and I are talking about right now without getting shut down.
		Don't you find that sort of comforting?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I find it comforting, but then on the other hand, President Roosevelt's Executive Order 9066, which he used in 1942 to order the detention of Japanese Americans without warrants or charges for as long as he deemed fit, that executive order was twice challenged before the U.S. Supreme Court.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And held.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Both times it was upheld.
		So a future president could insert, so Japanese Americans could have black Americans, Hispanic Americans, Americans who voted for the other candidate in the last election, and do the same thing.
		And it's already been pre-approved by the U.S. Supreme Court.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Huh.
		Okay.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		This is a friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A friend.
		Hi.
		Hi, friend.
unidentified		I want to comment something towards Harry.
		Proceed.
		Something that's non-apparent and effective in the future could prevent future violence within the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I just like that idea of a non-apparent security system by the military.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
		A non-apparent security system by the military.
		you know what we've got harry a non-apparent uh...
unidentified		Well, that means that it's within a controlled medium that is, how can I say it?
		It's like a control monitoring synchronicity and coordination station that is like an in like like an IO as you're a radio uh person to uh I don't know um check certain security features to make sure that there's no outbreak of disorder.
		Simple as that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Simple as that, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Harry, is it as simple as that?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I somewhat doubt it would be quite that simple.
		I don't see how you could have a security system that would be non-apparently.
		Non-apparently, you would have to recognize that you are subject to a certain sanction if you did something in order to have a security system.
		Seems almost by definition.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It seems like, yeah.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Hello.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to have to yell at us, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not too loud.
unidentified		Oh, I'm sorry.
		Yes, I wanted to make a comment to Harry.
		I believe that's your gift.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yes.
		On the out-of-control government, okay?
		Our founding fathers set up this government to serve the people and not for the people to serve the government as the government, or out of the people, is the government.
		Okay, and I'll take a classic example of that.
		I don't know if you've ever been to Waco, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Waco, Texas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've been to Waco, yeah.
unidentified		Yeah, back in 1993.
		Those people did nothing to anybody, but the federal government came down in here or came down here because I'm just outside of Dallas, Texas.
		Yep.
		And burned women, children, men too, over nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I don't know.
		Harry, I actually went through the whole Waco affair on the air, dealt with it on the air for a very long time.
		Looking back on Waco, Harry, how do you see it?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That is an early example of in my book, what I termed the militarization of civilian law enforcement, where you had military advisors to the FBI and the use of military equipment, like an armored personnel carrier, against civilians.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And that was perhaps the first public demonstration of how the line between civilian law enforcement and militarized law enforcement is becoming increasingly blurred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly, I think most people would regard it as not a really proud moment for America.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's an example of what can happen when certain powers are used without good judgment and proper discretion.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		The situation, I think, got rapidly out of the FBI's hand and led to a very rapid escalation of force on their side without sufficient provocation from the other side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		And good morning to you, Harry.
		Good morning.
		Harry, I'd prefer not to give my call letters or my.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, please don't.
		That's all right.
		Don't give us anything.
unidentified		Just go ahead.
unidentified		I'm in Army Mars.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		And my license on the wall is signed by the Secretary of Defense, or DOD and Secretary of the Army.
		But I'm not military.
		I'm not paid.
		And I have to use my own equipment.
		What you guys are talking about this morning kind of puts me in a rather difficult position.
		I have to serve Mars the best I can.
		But if the government turns against me, I have to revert back to my oath that I took when I joined the Marine Corps to defend this country against all of the marginalized margins.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, caller.
		I've got a question for you.
		Operating your Mars station, if you became aware of a situation, an emergency that had been declared in the United States by, say, the President of the United States, and you heard or were even part of handling traffic that indicated to you that the U.S. government was, in fact, moving en masse against its own citizens in an obviously unconstitutional way, would you follow orders?
		Would you pass that traffic?
		Or would you throw up your hands and say, uh-uh, it's time for a change?
unidentified		That's rather interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's why I asked it.
unidentified		In a kind of a dilemma, too.
		I want to be a good citizen, but no, I don't think I would.
		I think I'd refuse the traffic or at least make some sort of an excuse about my equipment went down on me or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		So there you go, Harry.
		That's exactly I guess, again, the kind of thing that I was talking about a few moments ago when you gave me the percentage, horrid and horrific as it is, of the military that would fire on civilians if they were ordered to do so.
		There's an example of a guy who's in at least a fairly important position who would not pass such traffic, who would make a decision on his own, making such a nightmare impossible.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And I salute the caller for that decision, but the danger lies in that the percentage of those who would take part in this may be small, but if they have access to sufficient firepower or other means of controlling or managing a population, even that small number could be devastatingly effective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		International Line, you're on the air with Harry Helms, and I'm Art Bell.
		Hello.
unidentified		Is that me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's you.
unidentified		Oh, okay.
unidentified		Yes, I'm Carol in Aberdeen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Carol.
unidentified		K-X-R-O.
		Yes.
		Well, first off, FEMA's already been practicing down in Texas when they jumped over those old people in their homes here a while back.
		But they EFEMA can declare for the sake of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, I think we missed the last part of what you were saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		EFEMA can do what?
unidentified		EFEMA can declare martial law in the case of diseases, you know, like we're having an outbreak of all these different so-called diseases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's a good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And then I'm seeing where the HARP is affecting the behavior from last night's show.
unidentified		And we have a humongous amount of people that are being put in prisons like our drug companies are just overloading us with depression pills that literally drove my daughter almost to the point of suicide, those pills.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		i didn't get her off of them and we've got millions of people in prison Stop, stop.
		Don't be naming people for us.
		So the thrust of your question was what?
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		And what other countries own our prisons?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
		You know, there has been certainly a movement in America to privatize the prison system, to actually put it in the hands of companies that would run prisons.
		Anything on that, Harry?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I would just correct one misconception that your caller did make, and this is a common misconception.
		FEMA by itself cannot declare martial law.
		FEMA is simply the president's toolkit, if you will, when he declares a national emergency or martial law.
		FEMA is the muscle, but it's not the actual instigator in and of itself.
		It takes orders from the president or some other competent authority to perform certain tasks.
		As far as the thing with private prisons, I have to be very honest with you and say I have no real knowledge of that area.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		She asked about prisoners being housed outside the United States.
		That's not going on, is it?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Not to the best of my knowledge, nor do I believe that there are any standby plans for housing American citizens outside the United States.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At least with regard to American citizens.
		Certainly, Al-Qaeda, we've taken who knows where.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's you.
unidentified		Oh, cool.
		Hi, Art.
		Hi, Ari.
		I got a question.
		After 8 Second Award in Metal 66, when President Roosevelt interned more than 120,000 Americans as Japanese ancestry, and then in August 10th, 1998, 1988, excuse me, Monawig, President Reagan signed H.R. 442, which gave the apologies and the compensation to more than 70,000 Japanese Americans.
		Isn't that like a justification or like an identification to say that what we did to the Japanese American was wrong?
		They paid them back, even though it was only $20,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It could be construed as such, but the fact of the matter is that did not repeal Executive Order 9066, nor did it impact negatively its legality.
		Executive Order 9066 was twice upheld by the United States Supreme Court.
		It is still there for a future president to use as he sees fit against any group of people he sees fit.
		I think you should understand that in terms of maybe domestic political considerations rather than having any bearing upon its legality or its potential for misuse in the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we didn't, other than making a payment, which was like an admission of wrong, other than that, and a big I'm sorry, we didn't change the thing that would allow that exact same thing to occur again.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		There was no change to the order itself or its legal standing whatsoever.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It was simply a public relations exercise, nothing more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Could that be, says the devil, because there has to be something that radical in place, something so radical that after you do it, you have to apologize for it in order to fight the dangers that we face.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I always find it interesting that whenever we talk in terms of national security dangers, it seems almost as if the Bill of Rights is the greatest threat to Americans rather than, say, foreign terrorists or foreign military powers.
		That does not affect, let's say, the operational capabilities of, say, al-Qaeda or, say, China.
		It does, however, go right to the heart of the freedoms and rights that make us a unique nation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it sure is hard to be legal and constitutional when the other side can do any damn thing they want.
		But I understand what you're saying, Harry.
		It's been a too long time since I've played this or thought about the words.
unidentified		Oh, peace of mind.
unidentified		And I'm ready for the task to get better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Better would be good.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M., cruising through the nighttime with Harry Helms.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Open to find a way out I've had enough fun Open the day.
		Changes are coming.
		truck with Art Bell.
		The final card line is Area Code 7757271295.
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		To truck with Art Bell from East to the Rockies, call toll-free at 800-825-5033.
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		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just the very fact that we can get on talk radio, nationwide, as we're doing right now, and talk about a subject as sensitive as this, to me, is almost like a beacon in the night saying, it's still okay.
		It's still okay.
		But then there's another beacon in the night going, but you better keep your eyes open, better keep your eyes open.
		And that's what this is all about.
		Harry Helms has written a book that has prompted this discussion tonight entitled Inside the Shadow Government.
		Inside the Shadow Government.
		The title of your book, right, Harry?
		That's correct, Arthur.
		How, well, let's see, a million questions.
		How is your book doing?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I understand it's doing rather well.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It's available through most major outlets, bookstores including Amazon.com and your website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if you read this book, you really do take people inside what you believe to be the real shadow government.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Because of the nature of the subject matter, I thought it was very important that I provide as much documentation as possible.
		So in there, you'll see extracts from various federal laws that give President the power, for example, to seize control of radio and TV stations or to declare martial law.
		And I reproduced the full text of several presidential executive orders, including Order 9066, the one President Roosevelt used to detain Japanese Americans for the duration of World War II.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you worry at all during the time you were penning this book that you might not be allowed to publish it?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		No, but there was certainly a total lack of cooperation when I, for example, filed various Freedom of Information Act requests.
		Either I had to repeat my request to get the documents, or when I got them, they were largely blacked out.
		So there was no official discouragement, encouragement, but they were certainly passive-aggressive in their approach to dealing with me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nobody came to you and said publish and die?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Not yet.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Just checking.
		International Line, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello?
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Morris the Cat from Delray Beach, Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's no person named Morris the Cat.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm on WJNO West Point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whatever you're on, you can't be truly named Morris the Cat.
unidentified		Well, I'm named after the cat on television, but I'm not as finicky.
unidentified		I'll eat anything you serve.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Morris.
unidentified		Yeah, this is in reference to the FTAA beating.
		I am a 75-year-old disabled American veteran, and I was at the FTAA rally in Miami Beach a few weeks ago, and there I saw an amphibious tank with a .30-caliber machine gun manned,
		and also an amphibious personnel carrier up on the little hill there, and, of course, a couple of thousand full-body armored, I call them thugs.
		And these were sent by our illustrious governor, Jeb Bush, against a peaceable rally against the FTAA so that our children and grandchildren's jobs wouldn't be exported.
		Now, where does this come into the shadow government?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it's a good question.
		Not just there, but what about Seattle?
		There's a very large movement out there against these various meetings which are designed to promote trade and, in the view of many, in fact, eliminate American jobs in the process.
		The protests have been large, the response at times violent on both sides.
		Where does all this fit in, Harry?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It's an example of the increased militarization of civilian law enforcement that we discussed in the last hour.
		And some of the things that your caller is now discussing, I think, is covered by a document called Army Field Manual 19-15, dated November 1985, and is titled Civil Disturbances.
		And that outlines the tactics and procedures and methodologies that would be used by the United States Army if called upon to assist in the suppression of a civil disturbance or to be on standby in case of a civil disturbance of some sort.
		That document outlines how a regional commander can declare martial law if he feels it warranted before even a presidential or gubernatorial declaration of martial law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And who could do that again, please?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		The local field commander.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A field commander.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A military field commander.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		In fact, on my book, on pages 133 and 134, I reproduced the exact wording of federal law that allows a regional military commander on his own initiative to declare martial law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a really justified wow.
		I didn't know that, Harry.
		It is hard to imagine any provision under any conditions that would allow that sort of decision to be made by a military person.
		That's incredible.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It is actually under, as I say in my book, The Code of Federal Regulations, Title 32, Subtitle A, Chapter 5, Subchapter A, Part 501.4.
		And I reproduced the full text of it.
		It surprised me when I found it, but it is on the books, and it is standing federal law.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, first time caller line, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		How are you doing, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was better earlier.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm still up and down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, when you hear some of this stuff, yeah.
unidentified		Yeah, okay.
unidentified		Let me talk to Harry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here you are.
unidentified		Here you are.
		Okay.
		Yeah, my name's Michael from Indio, California.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		And I have a comment, and this is relating to the subject.
		The United States government abides by international law that you cannot take away somebody's civil rights because of their race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, whatever they'll be.
		That is politically sensitive.
		But if the U.S. government wants to propagate some movement to make citizens afraid of somebody's ancestry, racial origin, or religion, whatever you mentioned, somebody who voted for the wrong candidate,
		that the U.S. government had to tell the media for the newspapers or the radio or the movies or TV, I'm talking about to promote a hysteria atmosphere that will make American citizens who mostly don't care or don't fear anybody because of such things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about promoting a crisis, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		manufacturing a crisis.
unidentified		Yeah, something...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or to forward a group that you now can officially hate and that it's officially sanctioned to hate.
		Yeah, that kind of thing or the manufacture of any, I don't know, it could be ethnic, it could be otherwise, kind of crisis.
		You can imagine that scenario unfolding, Harry?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
		And I would say to the caller, I would not place a Great deal of reliance upon the United States government being deterred in taking certain actions by the fact that those actions would be in violation of international law.
		I don't think I would rely upon that for any degree of security or restraint upon U.S. government activities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the end, Harry, the only real protection we have against any of what you're talking about would be the people themselves in the end, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that would be it.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And I think what we need is really a national debate on how do we respond to these crises effectively while at the same time preserving our constitutional rights in our civilian form of government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, our ability to keep our freedom depends on our awareness, doesn't it?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It does.
		And also, I think emergency plans or things of this nature, if, for example, we were to clearly spell out, here are the circumstances under which it may well be necessary to deploy federal troops for civilian law enforcement.
		I think we all recognize there could be certain situations, such as the aftermath of a major natural disaster or a terrorist event, when civilian law enforcement would break down or be overloaded, and it would be necessary to federalize it and militarize it to some extent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, people can imagine these scenarios, but what about the possibility of one of these scenarios being cooked up?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And that's the catch, and that's why we need to be very explicit, perhaps through constitutional amendments, on the circumstances when and where this can and should be done.
		The way it is right now, the latitude for deciding what constitutes a federal emergency and what measures may be taken are concentrated basically in the president.
		And for the first six months at least, Congress can basically do nothing but watch helplessly if the president decides to take some of these actions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be for six months.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, after that, the Congress can vote to rescind a presidential declaration of national emergency.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		But for six months, the president has pretty much free reign.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if a president, Let's just do a what-if scenario, Harry.
		If a president were evil, I'm going to use the E word.
		If a president were suddenly an evil president and he decided that he was going to take over, he was going to become a dictator, either kill or suppress all those who opposed him and take over the United States as its dictator, would six months of that power be long enough to ensure that be done?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		It all depends on what matter he might want to try to, what measures he may wish to take.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just told you, extreme ones, if necessary.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Such as arresting all members of Congress so they can't vote.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Yes.
		I mean, whatever.
		We're just speculating out on the edge of forever here.
		The president decided he wanted to take over as dictator, had, I don't know, Congress disbanded or shot or, you know, something awful.
		If a president just went berserk, does he have enough power without any checks in place for six months to get the job done?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Quite conceivably.
		One of the points I make in my book is Lincoln's actions during the Civil War.
		Lincoln did such things as shut down newspapers in the North that opposed the war in the South.
		He did such things as order the spending of money absent a congressional authorization, which explicitly violated the Constitution.
		He had even one United States congressman from Ohio who opposed the Civil War, arrested just for the basis of making a public speech opposing the war.
		Now, that was Lincoln.
		Since then, the emergency powers available to the president have increased greatly.
		So the president has far more tools and powers to choose from than Lincoln did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How we depend on the goodwill of others.
		Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		Hello, Harry.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Listen, from what I understand, as more United Nations occupation troops enter the United States, the White House and the two former administrations, they expect strong resistance from oil Americans, from what I understand, and to quietly suppress these patriotic fighters.
unidentified		The last administration, President Clinton was getting help from the old Soviet KGB, and they supplied the Clinton administration with a whole new class of weapons that was specifically targeted against American civilians.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, I hadn't heard that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Harry, have you?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That's news to me.
unidentified		And I wanted to ask you about this, Harry, specifically about these Soviet psychotronic weapons or mind control technology, and what would be the likelihood of the government using those type of dangerous weapons against our own people?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, that one we'll take a big bite out of.
		We did talk last night about the ability, for example, of HAARP to control human emotion, feeling, fear, produce a different state, even a confused state in a human being.
		Would you imagine a scenario, Harry, under which a government would use such a device, or even just a political party or a member of a political party would use such a device against its own citizens?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I would just say, as a general rule, that any government entity would be interested in as many non-lethal methods of population control as they can muster.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Persuasion.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And there's been a very long and well-documented history of interest by various agencies in the United States government in mind control methods.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		The first use of LSD in the United States in the 50s was in experiments conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, of course, true.
		It's just, it's true.
		And these astounding things that you go holy mackerel or worse and then sort of let drift out of your mind because they're so outrageous.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
unidentified		Hello.
		Good morning.
		How are you doing today?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
unidentified		Thank you.
		This is Robert.
		I'm calling from Richmond, Virginia.
		Hey.
		I have a couple questions here real quick for Harry.
		I've done a research paper in an English class, and I happened to do it on the Rex 84 program.
		And up on my research, I came across a couple things that I thought were kind of odd and weird.
		So I was going to ask you to see what the legitimacy of these are.
		The first thing I came up with was rail cars with sprinkler systems in them.
		Have you heard anything about that?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I've heard rumors about that, which were supposedly to be used for dispensing of biological or chemical agents, but I've had no success in verifying this anything more than a rumor.
unidentified		Okay.
		The other thing is, as far as crematories, I heard that, excuse me, I heard the government was purchasing, let me think here, old railroad stations, if I remember correctly, and installing crematories in them.
		Have you heard anything about that?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I have heard that rumor, but again, I haven't been able to find anything to support this, anything more than just an unsubstantiated rumor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, there's a couple I have not heard.
unidentified		Okay.
		The final thing I want to ask is the Rex 84 program took place in the early 80s, and so that should be done and over with.
		You would think that the Denver Airport, which is also known as the New World Airport, which we're not talking about the New World Order tonight, but I also found information as far as inputting a concentration camp.
		Did I say concentration camp?
		I meant to say a detainment camp underneath the airport.
		Have you heard anything?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, the Denver Airport is really the source of a lot of hot rumors, whether they be of this sort or even the paranormal sort.
		I'm telling you, there's something about the Denver Airport.
		And I've been all over it, Harry, even down where They send the bags through the big machines.
		I've been all over the Denver airport.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Having connected it through a couple of flights through Denver's airport, I can understand why you might think it is a detention center at times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But only until your flight.
unidentified		Yes.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it were a detention center, I think they would get your bags to you on time if it were a real detention center.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They'd do better with the bags.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Hi, Mr. Bell.
		Hi, Mr. Helms.
		Yes.
		I got two questions.
		My first question is pretty long.
		I remember when I was a little kid, I remember receiving something called the Double Defense, and are they still around?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		The Triple Defense has been folded into FEMA.
unidentified		And my second question is, is it pretty expensive to get started as a ham radio operator?
unidentified		And approximately how much minimum would you need to get started?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody breaks us away from the government for a moment.
		Yeah, that's a really good question.
		All right.
		Get started as a ham, Harry.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		If you're going with, say, the technician-level license, which is the entry-level license, 25 questions, no Morse code tests.
		It allows you operation on the 50 megahertz and higher bands, and hopefully some lower-level bands once they modify the Morse code test requirements.
		You can get on the air with a small walkie-talkie unit for two meters or so for between $100 and $200.
		And for some of the other bands, antennas and such, even with new equipment, between $200 to $300.
		And if you're a judicious shopper of the used equipment market, probably for about half that amount.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So not that much to start into ham radio, right?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Very cheap for what you get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy, is it ever for what you get.
		Ham radio is one fun hobby, and I'd like to encourage as many of you as I can toward it.
		My guest is Harry Helms.
		We're talking, yes, about the shadow government, but also about radio and any other topic you'd like to bring up.
		because you're the ones in the spotlight now on the phone.
unidentified		The News.
		Happen to our love.
		I wish I understood it just the face of us.
		It used to pay so good So when you're near me, darling Can't you hear me?
		S.O.S The love you gave me Nothing else can save me S.O.S When you're gone How can I In the sight to go home?
		When you're gone Though I die How can I carry on?
		You seem so far away Though you are standing near You make me feel alive But something that I feel I really tried to make it out I wish I understood What happened to our love?
		It used to be so good To talk with Art Bell, call the wildcard line at area code 775-727-1295.
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		From coast to coast and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, you know, even doing a talk show like this, considering it, you've got to gulp a couple times real hard before you do it, but I figured, what the hell?
		I mean, anything you can imagine.
		Look at science fiction, for example.
		Some of the wildest, craziest scenarios that are so hard to imagine could ever come true.
		Well, suddenly, they come true.
		And this is one of those things that if you close your eyes and imagine a military presence and a takeover and a government gone and freedoms evaporated, it seems impossible.
		You know, it just seems impossible.
		But on the other hand...
unidentified		The End Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that kind of behind the scenes, pulling the strings of the current government, I never was able to really grasp that as a concept I considered reasonable or that I thought it was really going on.
		Unfortunately, this kind of shadow government, the one described by Harry tonight, can be envisioned.
		And one can even close one's eyes and imagine how it would be implemented.
		And all it might take would be the will of the right person to make it all happen because everything, according to you, Harry, everything, and I think you're pretty much in line, is in place to do it if someone wanted to.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
		In fact, I found a quote here in my book from Senator Charles Mathias of Maryland, who is a Republican back in 1975, reviewing some of the executive orders issued by the Nixon administration and their potential for misuse.
		And this is a direct quote from Senator Mathias.
		Under the authority delegated by the statute, the President may seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and in a plethora of ways control the lives of all American citizens.
		And that pretty neatly sums up the situation as it exists today, except that the powers available to the president, should he decide to exercise them, are even greater than they were in 1975.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, Harry, a lot of people are going to want to get in touch with you, and so to prevent a gigantic amount of email from going across my computer, why don't you give out your email address?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Art, I'll let my server take the hit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there you go.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		The website they can reach me at is www.the-shadow-government.com.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And these dashes are hyphens between the words the dash shadow-government.com.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, that's a web address.
		How about your email address?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		You can reach me at Harry at the dash shadow-government.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ha ha.
		Harry, that's easy.
		H-A-R-R-Y at the dash shadow-government.com.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, cool.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm thinking you're going to get a lot of email.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		You're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Good morning.
		Hello.
		Hello.
		Going once.
		Going twice.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, finally we get a hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		International Live?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Hey.
unidentified		Art, great show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Glad to make it in.
unidentified		I'm a long-time listener, first-time caller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And where are you?
unidentified		I'm down in Austin, KLBJ AM.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I'm just curious, something that's I've been researching the governmental realms and what's going on here for some time now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're going to have to speak up good and loud.
unidentified		10 years.
		Yes.
		And one of the concerns I have is a lot of these rumors about Chinese troops on the Mexican border, Russian troops, Latvian troops up on the Canadian border.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And this entire takeover of the United States.
		And I'm just curious as to, you know, from my perspective, it makes sense that in order to bring in a one-world government, you cannot have a superpower.
		You're going to have to bring everybody down into an even keel, so to speak.
		And I wanted to find out, one, if there's any information that, Harry, if you may know that it is true that there are troops on these borders that are ready to come in and I tell you what, it's a very good question you're asking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got a story in my hand.
		I don't know where this came from, but it says big trouble in Mexico.
		Residents of New Mexico, it says, just north of the border with Mexico, report that Chinese troops are operating out of northern Mexico and frequently make incursions into the United States.
		The U.S. Border Patrol agents, who've spoken on condition of anonymity, meaning no sources here, right, fearing they will lose their jobs, said they've seen Chinese troops on the northern side of the border and that they have duly reported the situation to headquarters.
		Agents said large numbers of the troops are frequently on U.S. territory about 32 miles southwest of Las Cruces, New Mexico, near the town of Deming.
		Now, I have no idea if this is true, but this is circulating big time on the internet.
		Harry, I'm sure you've heard the rumors like Van was talking about.
		What do you have to say?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I have heard the rumors likewise, but I've seen nothing reliable or substantive to back them up.
		However, there is increased military activity along the borders on both sides, and there have been incursions of Mexican troops that have been very well documented.
		So certainly this is a situation that bears watching.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but surely if Chinese troops were on our border, I mean, that one would be grabbed up by the nightly news like, you know what, just pew.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and that's why I said there's been nothing substantive to back up those rumors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I'll tell you, the rumors are all over the internet.
		It's everywhere.
		Why do you suppose these, assuming it's not true, we don't know for sure, but assuming that it's not true, how do you think these kinds of rumors are generated?
		Are they generated by the extreme right wing out there, Harry, who are sort of stoking paranoia?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		There's two schools of thought.
		One is that you have China has replaced the Soviet Union as the most likely potential adversary for the United States in the military sense.
		The other rumor I have often idea I've often entertained is that perhaps these rumors could be generated by the government itself in order to discredit or to serve as a cover story for some of the things they might be doing along the border.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good evening.
unidentified		My name is John, and I live in the foothills of eastern Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, John.
unidentified		Hello?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, go ahead.
unidentified		Yeah, I wanted to say I've been stopped twice by military roadblocks here in eastern Tennessee.
unidentified		On both occasions, I was forcibly removed from my car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Military roadblocks?
unidentified		Military roadblocks.
		For what?
		No apparent reason other than to forcibly remove me from my car, to forcibly search my car.
		And I asked for explanations, got no answers from anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you on a military facility?
unidentified		No, these were public highways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're telling me that the military has public highways cordoned off, and they're stopping people and yanking them out of cars and searching the cars.
unidentified		So help me, God, it's my witness.
		I've got better things to do with my time than to sit here and cook up a story.
		This is an actual witness to God fact, and these have been documented in eastern Tennessee newspapers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Harry, have you heard about this?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I'm curious if your listener lives on a road in or near Oak Ridge or some other military facility.
unidentified		No, these were nowhere near any military installation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of road was it, Caller?
		What kind of road was it?
		Was it like a local little street?
		A highway?
unidentified		These are both county highways.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		County highways.
unidentified		Both travel county highways.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That's quite new.
		I have not heard about this happening inland in the United States, although my book does document several cases where the military have conducted roadblocks and searches on roads adjacent to the U.S.-Mexican border.
		But this is the first I've heard of it in an inland case.
unidentified		They were printed up in the Knoxville, Tennessee Journal, or Knoxville, Tennessee Sentinel newspaper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, caller, I've got a question for you.
		You were the one pulled over and searched.
		Did you have any sense of what they were hunting for?
unidentified		Absolutely no idea.
		Absolutely no idea.
		None.
		I mean, I thought somebody was making a Hollywood movie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you hurt?
unidentified		Yes, because I have muscular dystrophy, and I was forcibly dragged out of my vehicle and thrown onto the ground and had a soldier kneel on top of me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yikes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I don't know what to say.
unidentified		I'm going to tell you one other thing.
unidentified		I also wrote a letter to Father Malachi Martin about 15 years ago and asked him why I could find no references to the United States in biblical prophecy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and i proffered such a situation mentioned i think there is in fact a deficit of any mention in in in the bible uh...
		with rate But that's straying way down a whole different path.
		What he gave us there, this military roadblock, that's something else.
		You haven't even heard the rumors, Harry?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		That's new.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there have been several incidents along the border.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that would be...
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		But here would be things like along the border, not at the border, roads within a few miles of the border, which there have been military roadblocks, searches of cars, and in a couple of cases, the actual shooting of civilians.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But short of the shooting, Harry, wouldn't you be in favor of this kind of thing?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		If you're talking about American citizens on public roads, not at the border.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm talking about troops at the border.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Troops at the border are one thing.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		When they start taking over civilian law enforcement facilities, my first question is why them and not civilian law enforcement authorities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, but I'm backing up to what you said about having to tighten up the borders.
		I mean, how would you do it?
		You can't do it with ice cream.
		It's going to be with troops with guns, right?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but at the border, not several miles inside the border.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		In some cases, these have been like 30, 50 miles away from the border.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's quite a way.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Harry Helms.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
unidentified		Yes, this is Raymond in Morgantown.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Raymond.
unidentified		Back in the 60s, the Johnson administration had a special group on counterinsurgency headed by Colonel William Corson.
		And he was commissioned to investigate American Indian movement and the Black Panthers and so forth, and any possible linkage between them and the student protests against Vietnam.
		And he concluded that without the students, the extremists cannot mount their revolution, and with them, they may be able to.
		Have you heard anything about that?
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that was one of the conclusions that led to the creation of Operation Garden Plot, the operational plan for involvement of the U.S. military in civilian disturbances.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		And in fact, they were monitoring the 1970 student anti-war protests, the ones that culminated in the shooting at Kent State, very carefully.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		West of the Rockies, you're on air with Harry Helms.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Mr. Bell.
unidentified		This is Brian in Bakersfield, KMZ, our country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Brian.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		It's a pleasure to be on your show again, particularly when you're hosting this evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Happy to have you.
unidentified		Thank you very much.
		And to Harry, as you probably know, Thomas Aquinas held, the medieval philosopher held that monarchy was the most preferable and the best form of government.
		and in that i believe he was following aristotle so the traditional monarchical government Well, I'm sorry about that.
		Can you hear me now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I hear you.
unidentified		I see you.
		Anyhow, both Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas in different eras held that monarchy was the most preferable form of government.
		And I'm quite sure that the President and our American government are quite aware of this tradition.
		Could it be that this plan, contingency of martial law and the rest, may be a sort of reversion, albeit a contingent reversion, to monarchy as a last resort,
		as it is quite necessary in the final analysis to have a lone body, usually in the person of one ruler, but often sort of extrapolated to a body rather than having a various separate bodies to whom government is.
harry helms ▲ ● ▼		All right, so in other words, are we could this sort of thing precede the institution of monarchy is what you're asking right uh yes okay uh Harry I don't know if uh the institution of monarchy is uh what it could lead to but certainly the impact could be to the institution of a dictatorship or de facto strongman form of government but uh you quoted uh Sir Thomas Kinas well I prefer to quote Benjamin Franklin who said that those who would sacrifice their liberty
art bell ▲ ● ▼		of your book they can get it it's inside the shadow government inside inside the shadow government thank you yes and it's available from bookstores or from amazon or from our website at www.the-shadow-government.com and when somebody reads this book cover to cover are they going to come away informed frightened um ready to become an activist um a believer what what do you think this book

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