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Nov. 26, 2001 - Art Bell

02:17:48

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Glenn Kimball - Egypt Illinois Cave

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	...participating dealers.
	Next news at 1230, or when news happens.
	I'm Tom Buber, Newstalk 89, WLS.
	Connected with your world, WLS.
	From the high desert in the great American Southwest.
	Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be across the cosmos.
	All time zones covered.
	I'm Art Bell, and from a little place called Trump, Nevada, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	And it's great to be here so much to talk about this hour.
	Next hour, Glenn Kimball will be here.
	We're going to be talking about an amazing, amazing, astounding, I don't know if you can come up with the right words, To describe what they found in Illinois.
	But we've got photographs for you tonight on my website.
	That's right.
	Photographs of stuff from the cave.
	And we're going to be talking about that this hour.
	I'd like to remind you of a couple of things.
	One, a couple of reasons to go to my website.
	Some incredible ground zero photographs.
	Exclusive ground zero photographs.
	Nobody else has them.
	You've never seen these before.
	All at artbell.com tonight.
	Some amazing photographs of Ground Zero.
	Aye yi yi.
	And that's not all.
	If you look under What's New, the second item will be photographs, yes I put them up, of our newest affiliate, KNYE, Pahrump, Nevada.
	That's the station that belongs to Ramona and myself.
	And it's our latest affiliate.
	We've got some photographs up there for you.
	I thought you might enjoy that.
	All at Artbell.com.
	Now, what I really want to talk about tonight is human cloning.
	Oh boy, do I want to talk about human cloning.
	But first, the war news such as it is.
	A newly landed U.S.
	Marines cemented control of an outpost in the Kandahar region Monday.
	Closing in, obviously, on Osama bin Laden, if he's there.
	Navy jets attacked a convoy of armored enemy vehicles moving near the base in southern Afghanistan.
	Two F-14 Tomcats involved.
	And so, we're closing in on this guy, and we're definitely getting ready to wrap it up there, I think.
	Northern Alliance troops, aided by U.S.
	Special Forces, fought a pitched battle in a sprawling mud wall-led fortress for a second-day Monday with captured loyalists of Osama bin Laden.
	Five Americans were wounded by a stray U.S.
	bomb.
	Afghan factions can expect no aid for rebuilding their war-ravaged country, it's been announced, unless they agree on a broad-based government.
	Until there's some kind of government that is broadly based.
	No more veils, I suppose, that sort of thing.
	But we're not going to rebuild that country.
	We usually rebuild countries after wars.
	In the case of Afghanistan, though, I don't think we ought to get involved in that because pretty much it was rubble before we began.
	So to rebuild Afghanistan, it seems to me, perhaps what we actually bombed at some point, if they get the right government otherwise, uh-uh.
	Attorney General Ashcroft said Monday he would not release the names of those detained since September 11th because it would violate their privacy and possibly help Osama bin Laden.
	The President, our President, said today the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan is, quoting here, just the beginning of the fight against terrorism, and he's warning Iraq and North Korea, putting them on notice, there's going to be consequences for producing weapons of mass destruction.
	But tonight, here's what I really want to talk about.
	Big, big news!
	American scientists claimed yesterday to have cloned the first human embryo.
	Spreading deep alarm among pro-life groups.
	Interesting.
	Deep alarm.
	Pro-life groups.
	If the experiments carried out by Advanced Cell Technology, one of America's leading biotechnology companies, are confirmed, it will mark a major development in genetic research.
	The breakthrough came during research aimed at finding new treatments for diseases like Parkinson's and diabetes.
	The company has no plans, they say, to use cloned embryos to create babies.
	Instead, it would like to exploit the stem cells found in newly conceived embryos for a host of new medical treatments.
	So they say they want stem cells.
	British cloning experts last night stressed the findings were, quote, extremely preliminary, end quote, and that the company had yet proved it had created a clone.
	But pro-life campaigners described the experiments as horrific, said cloning research that deliberately created then destroyed human embryos was abhorrent.
	Earlier this year, the government approved a change in the law to allow research in Britain into cloned human embryos for medical research, so I guess the Brits are professionally a bit jealous.
	My assessment.
	Dr. Robert Lanza, Vice President of Medical and Scientific Development at ACT, based in Worcester, Massachusetts said, our intention is not to create cloned human beings, rather it is to make life-saving therapies for a wide range of human disease conditions including diabetes, strokes, cancer, AIDS, neurodegenerative disorders like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.
	The ACT team said it created the embryo using the same technique that was used for, you'll recall, Dolly the sheep.
	It was only a matter of time, wasn't it?
	It first scraped out, here's how it happens, it scrapes out the DNA from a human egg cell, injects it with the nucleus from a human skin cell, and finally kick-starts the egg with an electrical jolt.
	Kind of reminiscent of Frankenstein, right?
	Throw the switch!
	Let me read it again.
	It first scraped out the DNA from a human egg cell.
	Scraped out, right?
	Just the DNA.
	Injects it with the nucleus from a human skin cell.
	Skin cell!
	Can you imagine that?
	A human skin cell.
	That's all.
	And from that, They get a human embryo.
	A human embryo.
	That if allowed to continue to grow, would become a human clone.
	Now, we have discussed this possibility now on this program, I don't know, for years and years, and it was always this stuff of science fiction, you know, somewhere down the line, long time from now.
	Guess what?
	It's now.
	We've done it.
	And there's a million questions that I would love to have you help me answer.
	You know what?
	I'm not sure how I feel about this myself.
	My wife is horrified.
	Absolutely horrified.
	And feels that it's encroachment on God's territory, and I understand that point of view perfectly well.
	And I might share it.
	You know, I'm not sure yet.
	I'm really not sure yet.
	I'm not sure how I feel about this.
	The creation of human life.
	I mean, it is that, after all, folks.
	It is the creation of human life.
	They say, no, no, no, just at the cellular level.
	We don't let it get that far, but I was always taught that at the moment when the sperm and the egg go, howdy, we've got human life.
	And it seems to me that when the female part and then the skin part go howdy, we've got human life.
	No less then.
	They can say, well, it's only a few cells, but it really is as much human life as when it is created through a union.
	The end result, if carried forth, would be the same.
	And don't you for a second think they're not going to carry it forth?
	Perhaps they're only going so far and only so many cells are created right now, but you and I both know they're gonna go the whole way.
	They're gonna go all the way, right?
	They're gonna create a human being, a clone.
	Or clones.
	And I am honestly, honestly not sure how I feel about it.
	I'm kind of... I'm kind of leery.
	I'm kind of leery and a little bit afraid of it, but of course that probably comes, those emotions, you know, they come with all new incredible discoveries like this, don't they?
	So anyway, this hour I would like to sample your feeling about this, and that's exactly what we're going to do with Open Lines.
	It is an amazing story, absolutely amazing.
	Outside of a man, outside of a woman, we have now created human life.
	You could take the argument that if God had not meant for us to do this, we would not be doing it.
	You could also certainly take the argument that we are going to create monsters.
	And who is going to care for these monsters?
	Humans that are not quite right.
	There will be, you know, certainly failed experiments, and who will care for these failed experiments?
	Will they have... Will they be human?
	That's a question you can bet the courts are going to have to address.
	Will they be human?
	Ah, these are some times we live in, aren't they?
	So, open lines on that subject, coming up, or any subject, in a moment.
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	So they had to jumpstart this little affair with electricity and then it began to live.
	I'm sure they would argue with that fact, and they would say, not live, art, you know, the cells began to divide, the process of life began, but we didn't let it go on.
	Still.
	And it begins multiplying.
	Would be a human being if they let it go.
	Amazing times we live in.
	First time caller line, uh, you are on the air.
	Hello.
	Oh my gosh, Art!
	Oh my gosh, yes, you're on the air.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Las Vegas.
	I'm from Seattle.
	My name is Lindsay.
	Just over the hill.
	Hi, Lindsay.
	Hey, I, um, well, I have two things.
	First of all, um, we love the show.
	Thank you.
	And, um, secondly, I was out in Pahrump, and I took a picture of your house, and I had a picture of a craft above your house, Art.
	You have a picture of a craft above my house?
	Well, you know, um, there have been Many, many, many sightings of weird things in Pahrump that was a cause bulletin, alright, recently.
	So are you serious?
	I was thinking it was a rod.
	I was thinking it was a rod for the cross because I didn't see it when I was there.
	I left you a little note on your garage.
	On your garage, on your fence.
	On my fence, alright.
	Well, I'll tell you what you do.
	You send me that photograph.
	I will.
	Should I scan it or?
	Okay, okay.
	So it's a regular photograph.
	Can you scan?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Alright, scan the photograph and send it to me.
	Oh my gosh!
	I love you!
	I can't believe I got on the air!
	Anyways, that's all.
	I just saw the craft and I was freaking out.
	I couldn't believe it.
	And I didn't see it there, though.
	It's just in the picture.
	I don't know.
	And it's in two different pictures.
	And the other thing is, we went to Area 51.
	I came down to see my mom and we went out there.
	And what did you see?
	Well, in one of the pictures from there, which is Send me that photograph as well.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	I'll look for both, and if they're good, I'll put them up for everybody to see.
	Okay.
	One other thing.
	I had a question.
	Yes?
	You had Atlantis on the other night?
	Well, I had a story about it.
	What may be Atlantis, yes.
	I was thinking, I was wondering, do you think Atlanteans deal with shadow people?
	Oh, yes, thank you.
	I think shadow people have been around for the Atlanteans and the Romans.
	And the Greeks.
	And everybody who's been on Earth.
	And that may go back somewhat further than we believe.
	Well, gee, a craft over my house, huh?
	A craft over my house.
	Wonderful.
	I'll look forward to seeing that photograph.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Shall we dance?
	Hello?
	Hello?
	Is that all you can say?
	We've got the hello part done now.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	Actually, I called this number because I want to know how to subscribe to your program.
	I can't get it on the internet.
	You can't?
	No.
	Why not?
	Well, I can't find the place where you're supposed to register.
	Well, it's at Artbell.com.
	Well, I'm there.
	But I can't get your program anymore.
	Well, the registration information is right there.
	Where?
	Let's see, I'm on my own website.
	This info, wait a minute here.
	I haven't even looked myself, so what do I know?
	Let's see, under, I would think under program, and then live streaming, oh yeah, okay, live streaming audio.
	Right?
	Right.
	And when you click on live streaming audio, then there's something very bold that says, click here to subscribe.
	Now, I'm not a computer genius, but I would think that click here to subscribe is probably a clue.
	The After Dark place is where I went and it said click here to subscribe.
	Well, After Dark is the newsletter.
	I filmed that out.
	Okay.
	I'm relatively new to your show.
	Alright, well that's alright.
	Anyway, that's the giveaway.
	Click here to subscribe.
	Alright?
	Okay.
	Anything else?
	That's it.
	That's it.
	Alright, well then you're on your way.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hello.
	Going once.
	Yes?
	Yes.
	Hi Eric.
	Turn your radio off.
	It's off.
	Okay.
	What is your first name?
	I'm Nancy.
	I'm from Rochester, Minnesota.
	Alright.
	Nancy, what's up?
	And I'd like to talk to you about cloning.
	Yes.
	And I have a real short ghost story for you.
	Well, now let's hold it to cloning.
	What's your view of cloning?
	My view of cloning is like, it's mixed emotions because, you know, for one thing it's tampering with things that should be done by God.
	But, there's another side to it too.
	If it can help people and save lives, I wonder if people are upset with it.
	You know, they were shocked and surprised when we cloned Dolly the sheep.
	You remember that?
	Yes.
	But now, all of a sudden, that it's a human being, it's a whole different story.
	And all of a sudden, it's really, really big news.
	We've cloned a human being.
	Do you think that people are angry because there's not apparently a lot of difference and difficulty between cloning Dolly and cloning the human being?
	I think that...
	There are going to be people who are going to be angry about it anyway, regardless of what they do.
	It's just something to complain about.
	Something to complain about.
	Well, alright, but I'm not sure that's entirely fair to the critics.
	I think it may be more than something to complain about.
	I do think that... You know, not so many people said, oh, it's so wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong with Dolly.
	But we did at that time look ahead toward the day when they might clone a human being, and now that day is today.
	And I think people may be upset because they like to sort of feature that there's a whole lot of difference between us and a sheep or a monkey or whatever, even though genetically we know there's very, very little difference indeed.
	There's not much difference between some primates, you know, and a human.
	I've got a feeling that some of the anger that we're hearing on, you know, about cloning, or the cloning of a human being, is the fact that, in some way, it makes people understand there's not a whole hell of a lot of difference.
	There really isn't.
	And they thought, well, cloning a human is going to be impossible.
	Yeah, sure, you can clone a sheep.
	Sure, you can clone a monkey.
	Or move a head of a monkey from one monkey to another.
	But a human being?
	No, no, no, no.
	A human being is special in the eyes and hands of God.
	And we will not clone a human being.
	Well, guess what, folks?
	It's now been done.
	If they'd let it grow, it would have been a human being.
	I think, I mean, that's another argument altogether.
	Would it really have been a human being?
	Man, what a story.
	I'm Art Bell.
	From the high desert, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Send in the clones, huh?
	Keep that dial right where you've got it.
	It's gonna be a wild night tonight.
	Sweet dreams are made of the air.
	Who am I to disagree?
	I travel the world and the seven seas.
	Everybody's looking for something.
	Some of them want me, you do.
	Some of them want to get used by you.
	Some of them want to abuse you.
	Some of them want to be...
	Infamous.
	Every night I hope and pray The dream lover will come my way.
	The girl that's holding my heart Knows the magic of her charm.
	Cause I want the girl to call my own.
	I want the dream lover So I don't have to dream alone.
	All you do is take a little crank of hair and a little skin.
	Oh, my God.
	Folks, we have cloned.
	To recharge Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from west of the Rockies, dial 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033. First time callers may reach out at 1-775-727-1222 or use the wildcard
	line at 1-800-825-5033.
	To reach out on the toll-free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	and have been dialed 800-893-0903.
	This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Network.
	A little hank of hair and a little skin and away we go.
	You've got your dream lover, maybe, or your nightmare.
	And I guess that's the controversy, isn't it?
	My wife made a very interesting observation.
	She said, Honey, did you happen to notice that they did this over the Thanksgiving weekend?
	I mean, here we are in the middle of a war, and everybody takes a slight breather over a Thanksgiving weekend, and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend, a whoosh!
	We have cloned... You've heard Art Bell talk about technical remote viewing and how the military kept it a secret for 17 years.
	I'm Dane Spots, CEO of SciTech, the company that ushered this classified technology out of military intel.
	SciTech is looking for qualified people to become skilled remote viewers.
	Call me at 1-800-600-4001 and I'll send you a free video that shows you how.
	And for the first 500 callers, I'll enclose a special report on the next terrorist attack.
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	even win at the racetrack.
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	For just the cost of shipping.
	The numbers 800-600-4001 or online at RemoteViewing.com.
	Since we were children, we've been told to reach for the star.
	Would a clone have normal human rights?
	You know, the Bill of Rights and all that, would they apply to a clone?
	I'm not exactly sure, and all of this would get run through the courts to be sure.
	One night, just for fun, I asked my audience to respond that if they had the ability to have a clone, that would be a human being genetically altered to be not bright at all, to not be smart, not have intelligence, but nevertheless be able to Oh, you know, do dishes, clean the house, change the oil in the car, do all of the things that you'd rather not do.
	Would you have such a being?
	I won't say human being because I'm not sure.
	I suspect human being.
	Anyway, would you have such a being available to you?
	If you could buy a clone to do all the dirty work for you, would you do it?
	And most people, when they answered honestly, said yes.
	Now, do you for one second believe that the fused cells that they claim they have produced is where they're going to stop?
	Or do you think it more likely they will go on and clone a human being?
	Is there really any question at all?
	I think not.
	First time caller line, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Hi, where are you?
	From Montgomery, Minnesota.
	My name is June, and I have Parkinson's disease.
	June?
	Yes.
	Okay, June.
	Sorry to hear about that.
	Of course, that's one of the things they say they're pursuing with this technology.
	Well, they can just pursue all they want.
	I would have nothing to do with anything like that, with that cloning.
	Oh, you wouldn't?
	I'd like to say one thing about Ramona.
	God bless her.
	I hope she can influence you to have a better feeling about this, that it's entirely wrong.
	Another thing, they can't really create a soul.
	Only God can do that.
	So I think these little things that they're trying to do are just monstrous.
	Terrible.
	But how do you know that if we do the creation part and we create a human being, that God would not inculcate that being with a soul?
	No, I don't think so, because God creates differently.
	God doesn't create from test tubes and experimentation.
	He just knows when a soul is going to be born, and the soul is there, and that's something they're overlooking.
	And I think it's evil and it's monstrous, and I would have no part of it, no matter how ill I was with Parkinson's disease, I would have no part of it.
	I think America should wake up and realize these things are totally evil.
	You may well be right.
	I honestly don't know.
	I really honestly don't know.
	I enjoy your program as much as I can and I think you're just great.
	Thank you so much, Jen.
	Take care.
	That's one very strong view, and I think that my wife shares that, and it may well be that these beings will not have souls.
	Now, wouldn't that be some sort of something for a scientist to ponder?
	If what they created seemed physically to be human, but lacked human qualities.
	In other words, was significantly different than the rest of the gene pool.
	On the other hand, what if the person appeared to be very much the same?
	I grew up to be a devout Catholic or Jew or whatever.
	Then what?
	Boy, talk about being off in uncharted territory.
	I'm going to try and dredge up a guest on cloning.
	I think that we need a guest more on the ethics of cloning than we do on the specific how-to part of it.
	I don't really need a scientist.
	I need somebody to speak about the ethics and the morality of cloning.
	I'd love to have Michael Cordy.
	Michael Cordy is one of my favorite authors, and he wrote on the subject specifically about the cloning of Jesus Christ.
	What a book that was.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good evening, Eric.
	Good morning.
	Yes.
	How's your back?
	Absolutely spiffy, thanks.
	Oh, wonderful.
	Very glad to hear that.
	You have mentioned creation of human beings that would be for subservient purposes.
	Of course, that's straight out of Huxley.
	Brave new world where you had your alphas, betas, deltas, epsilons, etc.
	I know, but now it's possible.
	I shudder to think that we would ever go that road, but I hope that instead we would use
	this to cleanse the human gene pool of the some 4,000 plus inherited genetic defects,
	some of which you and I both suffer from, and I think our great, great grandchildren
	would thank us, brave, poor, beetle-browed souls who dared to invent fire and to cleanse
	the world of bad things.
	Like any technology, its potential for good and evil is roughly equal.
	Yes, of course.
	And it's up to us to decide what to do with it.
	Of course.
	And I don't know how they can put the genie back in the bottle.
	My understanding is the British are proceeding ahead, but we're considering a moratorium or even a ban on And I don't know.
	I just don't know if you can, you know, stop technology like that.
	Well, Art, when has the human race ever, you know, when able to do something has not gone ahead and done it, number one.
	And number two, more importantly, if this is what is revealed to us now, What is the actual true state of progress?
	What hasn't really been done somewhere that we don't know about?
	You're exactly right, sir.
	I've said it for a long time.
	In private labs somewhere around the country, you know damn well there's a baby crying, probably being nursed right now.
	Amen.
	I appreciate the call, sir.
	Right.
	It's just that what I think the shocker of this is that We now know it's possible.
	All they had to do was let it continue to grow and it would be a being.
	I'm not going to say human being because I don't know.
	It would be a created being.
	Now, it's not totally our creation.
	That's yet another way to look at it.
	In other words, the information from the egg The information from the skin continues to be human DNA on both sides, right?
	So it's just that we are artificially joining them instead of the normal act of love.
	Artificially joining them.
	Now, the next step, of course, is manipulation, and that's not very far behind, so could you create a clone that would be not intelligent, one that could do the chores and the work for you without complaint?
	Yes, very soon.
	That can be done.
	Will we do it?
	I agree with the last caller.
	We will probably do whatever we can.
	And when has that ever stopped us?
	Ever.
	East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hello?
	Hello, I can barely hear you, uh, ma'am.
	Oh, oh, okay.
	There you are.
	Speak good and loud into the phone and let her rip.
	Where are you calling from?
	I'm calling from Meadville, Pennsylvania.
	Meadville, all right.
	My name's Barb.
	Hi, Barb.
	And like I told you before the break there, I'm calling about cloning.
	Yes.
	Now, do you ever notice when these medical researchers come up with something that's going to make them a fortune?
	Believe me, this is going to make somebody very, very rich.
	I'm sure.
	They always come out with the phrase, because it's controversial and they know that a lot of people aren't going to swallow it, To make it easier to swallow, they always come out with the phrase, it's going to save lives.
	I know.
	Well, will it?
	I don't know.
	I mean, potentially.
	Potentially, I guess it could.
	But if you were announcing this, you would say things like, it's going to cure Alzheimer's and diabetes.
	Right, and cancer.
	And cancer, yeah, sure you'd... Cancer, it's gonna cure cancer.
	Well, the thing is... But it might.
	That we Christians believe that When God says it's our time, it's our time.
	Wait a minute.
	Let me challenge that a little bit.
	If you lost a leg or an arm or something like that, you wouldn't say to yourself or of your daughter or son, well, you know, we'll see what happens here.
	If it's God's will, Then little Johnny or Jane is going to go to God.
	That's all there is to it.
	No, you'd rush them to the hospital and you would do every heroic procedure you could do to get their arm reattached and to ensure they didn't bleed to death.
	So, you know, I don't know.
	No, the thing is that when a Christian believes that you don't die until God wishes you to, Then even if you had ten clones of yourself, these clones would not save you.
	You're going to die anyway.
	I'm getting kind of sick and tired of hearing that.
	It's going to save lives.
	Suppose you needed a new heart or a new liver.
	So you need one?
	Well, if one's available from a clone and you don't die because you got it, So that's reducing a clone to the next thing next to roadkill.
	Yeah, parts.
	But it may be that they could breed a clone.
	No, I'm like your other caller there.
	I'll tell you.
	Evil.
	If I had the money, and it's going to cost a lot, if I had the money to have myself some of my body tissue cloned, I would refuse.
	You would die before you would do that?
	I don't want to be a donor of someone's body organs.
	But if they could create a clone that essentially didn't have a brain, or had such a small brain
	that could only keep motor functions going, you know, breathing and heartbeat and all
	Otherwise, didn't have a brain, but had the body parts available for you.
	You would not accept those body parts, correct?
	No, I would not.
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, well, your, uh, position is clear and I thank you very much for the call.
	I think there are going to be many, many, many people like that lady.
	And I, I mean, no disrespect at all, but I wonder how many of these people, if actually faced with death, And the option of continuing to live apart from a clone would then really refuse.
	It's really hard to know until you really got a person in that position.
	It's very easy to sit back on the moral high ground when you're not ill, not fatally ill, but would you maintain that moral high ground if you were really pressed?
	I don't know.
	We're going to answer a lot of very interesting questions about ourselves as this continues.
	Don't you think?
	What's with the Rockies?
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Good evening, Mr. Bell.
	Hi there.
	Where are you, pray tell?
	East of the Pacific.
	East of the Pacific.
	Okay.
	I would like to address the two points here.
	Number one, background on the company and on the man that created this, that heads the clinic.
	And secondly, exactly what he has done.
	I have done some serious research into this.
	And?
	Number one, the company you mentioned is Advanced Cell Technologies out of Worcester, Massachusetts.
	Right.
	It's a privately held company that employs 200 people, and it's headed by Dr. Michael West, who would be the gentleman that you'd want to get on the show.
	I'd love to have Dr. West.
	I doubt that under the current conditions I'll be able to get him, but we'll get somebody good.
	Right.
	Or a bioethicist, by the way, is the type of person you would want on your ethics.
	I don't really want a scientist, because I think I, at least to some degree, understand what they have done.
	I want to understand whether we should do it.
	And exactly what they've done there is they've created a first human embryo clone.
	Right.
	And the gentleman, Michael West, sounds like a very interesting character.
	I've heard him described as a visionary, a renaissance man that has studied theology and philosophy, and he is targeting therapeutic versus reproductive cloning.
	and what he had created was a one cell division into six, which was in order to actually,
	which is just a basic first step art of not even, he's not even close to developing a dolly.
	Not even close.
	The pros are saying that you need approximately 100 cell divisions to create stem cells.
	But it's coming, sir.
	And that needs to develop what they call blastias, which is actually a placenta for the stem cells.
	But it's coming.
	The next step is there, but then of course, you know that a company called Clonaid out of Italy
	is on the verge and has a waiting list.
	The one aspect of this is that if it does happen, it happens in the United States
	and it happens under some type of oversight.
	Look, do we shut it down?
	Do we impose a moratorium or a total ban and allow the rest of the world to continue?
	Or do we continue research here?
	Or does Michael West move to another country where we'll be allowed to proceed further?
	Already some of our scientists have made their way to Britain where they know it's going to continue, so what is your view?
	Should we continue here?
	I think that it'd be best here on our homelands than going ahead and having our scientists and our research people go elsewhere.
	And the reason for that is that it's going to happen anyway.
	It's a matter of time.
	Brave new world out there.
	Well, thank you.
	I have a feeling he's right.
	And I know that a lot of you think this is horrific, and I may join you in believing that.
	I'm not really sure yet.
	You know, isn't it strange?
	I have not made up my mind about this.
	I really haven't.
	It's going to take a lot of thought, and while I'm thinking, they're going to be doing it anyway, aren't they?
	First time caller line, you are on the air.
	Good morning.
	I really haven't.
	Hello?
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	I'm sorry.
	It's always first.
	Where are you, sir?
	Well, calling you from Las Lunas, New Mexico.
	This is 977 KKOB.
	That's the one.
	Yes, sir.
	Hello.
	It's very interesting to hear the folks.
	Talk about whether they have souls or not.
	If they truly don't, then, on the other hand, wouldn't there be an avenue for them to... You know, if they don't have souls, that would be of great comfort to the Christian community, in a way, if they are created and their Atypical, they're not really human as we understand humans.
	Perhaps they have no conscience.
	Perhaps, you know, something really different about human clones.
	Then the Christians would have something to say, aha, they are soulless.
	And that would bolster their faith in one way or another.
	If they need it, it would certainly bolster their faith, wouldn't it?
	Right, Art, but do you think feeling human beings with With compassion and understanding, wouldn't we tend to become attached to these clones?
	I mean, how would we separate the difference between... You mean like I'm attached to my cats?
	No, not... Well... What do you mean?
	Well, if you look at... We're used to looking at other human beings, and some people are saying, well, if they don't have a soul, then they're really not people.
	They're basically just a farm for People in real need of organs to keep living.
	It would be hard to look at them, I don't know if it would or not, but to me, I guess someone having the same fingerprints as me, now would they have fingerprints?
	Here's the easiest way for me to ask.
	You're six, sir.
	You have two lungs that for whatever reason, cancer or whatever, are no longer going to be workable for you within, say, three months.
	You have three months to live.
	Yes.
	There's a clone available.
	It could give you its lungs. It doesn't really have a brain as you do
	It would not have any say in whether or not you take its lungs if you take its lungs you live if you don't
	You die. Would you take those lungs? Yes, I would and I'd be very thankful for the technology that brought it to me
	and Because thereby my whole family would be enriched by me
	being around a little longer Maybe, but what about the fact that this clone with essentially no brain still has a soul, a human soul.
	And so when you take its lungs, it ceases to live.
	Have you sinned?
	Wow, Art.
	That's why I love your show.
	Would it be something you would give a lot of thought to before you would do?
	Oh, definitely.
	It's soul searching for sure.
	Would you feel guilt?
	I assume that you would go ahead and do it.
	That was an honest answer.
	Do you think you would feel guilt?
	Maybe that would be the balancing thing.
	How would I feel like I'm taking from someone?
	But at the outset, wouldn't the purpose be for this outcome?
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, absolutely.
	I'd have to go, well, okay.
	Absolutely, but it still might be murder.
	All right, well listen, we're going to have a guest on this subject.
	Yes, thank you for calling, sir.
	You take care.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Glenn Kimball is next with a discovery made in Illinois, in the ground.
	It's amazing.
	Stay right where you are.
	as far as he's saying goes, don't touch that dial.
	You'd think that people would have had enough of silly love songs.
	But look around me and I see it isn't so.
	Some people wanna fill the world with silly love songs.
	And what's wrong with that?
	I'd like to know.
	To be right.
	What's the matter with you?
	Mind my audience. We're not accepting snail mail We are, however, accepting email.
	So if you want to get in contact with us, email is the way.
	I'm Art Bell.
	That's A-R-T-B-E-L-L at Minespring.com.
	Art Bell at Minespring.com.
	And just before we jump into what's coming up this hour with Glenn Kimball, a reminder, on my website, artbell.com, right now, exclusive new Ground Zero photos.
	These are really something, and they are exclusive.
	You'll not see them anywhere else.
	We've got photos of my new affiliate, our new affiliate, here in Pahrump, Nevada, 95.1 KNYE.
	People wanted to see what it looked like, so I took some pictures.
	Not great, sort of done on the spur of the moment, but you'll get the idea.
	That's photos of KNYE 95.1, Pahrump, Nevada, on my website.
	Now, last week we had astounding revelations from Linda Moulton Howe about what's going on off the coast of Cuba, off the western coast of Cuba, where underneath the water at about 2200 feet, or about half a mile, half a mile underwater, impossibly deep underwater, there appears to be a city And I mean a city, buildings, pyramids, roads, everything you would associate with a city.
	And of course, the interview, the incredible interview with Paulina Zolitsky, who has now not just done side scan radar, sonar rather, of these artifacts, but has now taken photographs And has found inscriptions and symbols on what appear to be buildings.
	It may be Atlantis!
	Tonight, we're going to follow up with Glenn Kimball.
	Not such an exotic location right in the middle of the country in the state of Illinois.
	A cave.
	And we're going to find out about this cave and what's in this cave coming up in a few moments.
	Glenn Kimball is a collector of ancient Texts since he was 15 years of age.
	Former president of the International Exchange School, taught at the University of La Paz in Bolivia, and Southern Illinois University, a best-selling author, lecturer on a variety of historical subjects dealing with ancient texts.
	Did his doctoral study at Southern Illinois University.
	He has lived not only in Bolivia, but also Chile, Peru, and Mexico.
	Having studied in the libraries of Italy, France, England, and the former Yugoslavia.
	Most recently he's been filming pilots for a new television series slated to air late next year, but I'm way behind on this whole cave in Illinois.
	I've been hearing about it sort of hither and yon for a long time, but I want the whole story, and tonight I think we're going to get the whole story, or at least a very great deal of it, if you'll stay right where you are.
	And now here he is, Glenn Kimball.
	Glenn, it's been a long time since you and I have come together on the radio.
	Welcome to the program.
	How are you, Art?
	I'm just fine, thank you.
	Glenn, I'm really behind the curve on this whole cave in Illinois thing.
	I've been hearing about it from, I don't know, about 20 different sources now for a long time, and I don't know where it is, what it is, what's in it, how it was found, and I want to know all of that.
	Well, we have to begin and figure out why I'm involved.
	Perhaps that would be a good place to start.
	As you well know, I've lived in South America for a long time, and having been familiarized some years ago with the earliest archaeology and anthropology of Bolivia and Peru specifically, though there's extensive finds in Chile as well, that's something that you can never forget when you're up on the The Altiplano, standing at Tiwanaku, and knowing that these people moved 9 million pound stones, which are larger by several times over than the largest stones ever lifted in Egypt.
	And this is above the timberline at about 16,000 feet in some cases.
	And you ask yourself, what am I doing with this tremendous civilization here?
	This has got to be a story left untold.
	How many pounds?
	Nine million pound stones.
	Nine million pounds?
	Yes.
	For example, to give you some perspective of what that might be, the largest stone in the Khufu Pyramid on the Giza Plateau is the Rose Granite Stone and the Burial Chamber.
	That's roughly 360,000 pounds.
	So when you're talking about a 9 million pound stone, you're talking about a very big square rock.
	There is nothing in Egypt that compares to this rock.
	Well, they can't even explain what happened in Egypt.
	If you speak with Zayas over there, he will tell you straight out.
	I know how the pyramids were built, or rather who built them.
	But when you ask him how the stones were moved, he shrugs his shoulders and he says, oh, that is a mystery.
	You know, and he has no idea.
	So if he doesn't know how those were moved, nine million pound stone, my God.
	Well, he has the damage because they have the Nile River right there.
	And at least they could move timber up the Nile and use timber and We're talking about the timber line.
	Yeah, but nobody has duplicated it.
	The Japanese tried to duplicate that, Glenn, and they could not.
	With the best current new technology, nobody can still do it, and that probably means there was some sort of technology that used to exist, probably still does if we knew how to utilize it, What's amazing, though, Art, is that the larger stones are in the West, not in the East.
	And we have to ask ourselves, what's going on here?
	If, in fact, the technology somehow floated from East to West, then you would presume that the technology would be a stronger technology in the Middle East.
	The reality is that it appears, for all intents and purposes, that the technology began here and went east.
	Maybe.
	Because, I'll give you another clue.
	In Egypt, if you were to count the number of archaeological sites, this is a very simplistic way of looking at it, you would find some 1,200 sites in Egypt.
	But let's assume we're off by 7,000 sites.
	Okay?
	Just to be ridiculous.
	Alright.
	And suggest that we're somewhere around 8,000 sites.
	In Bolivia alone, There are 32,000 registered.
	They are all registered archaeological sites, 99% of which have never had a spade of dirt uncovered.
	That does not include Peru.
	That does not include Chile.
	That doesn't include any place else.
	What do we know about the dating?
	When do we think these nine million pound stones were moved?
	The 9 million pound stones have been estimated to be somewhere around 1200-1800 B.C.
	However, there are archaeological sites that are much earlier than that that are in the region as well.
	So when we're talking about the Egyptian pyramids, let's put this into some sort of a time frame here.
	We're talking about 2700 years B.C.
	The 9 million pound stones in America Around, let's suggest that they're very old, and they're 1800 years B.C., so they're younger by about 900 years.
	However, the mining and the other kinds of processes that were going on in the West are even older than the dating of the pyramids.
	For example, are you there?
	Right here?
	Okay, I'm sorry, I heard a click.
	The Bronze Age came about in Europe in the Middle East in 3000 B.C.
	to 1200 B.C.
	The Bronze Age included the use of copper to make bronze, obviously.
	Scholars have been concerned for decades where the Middle East and Western Europe got all the copper from, because they cannot find enough significant mining sources for the copper.
	However, if you come to the Americas, in Wisconsin and in Michigan, you find these huge copper mines that date from 3000 B.C.
	Indeed, but how would the copper have made its way from hither to yon?
	There is a river right from the mines and onto the Mississippi, Ohio, down into the Gulf of Mexico.
	There are little map stones that people have used that we find, in fact, in this cave tonight.
	I know, but until 1492 nobody had done that, right?
	Sadly, our anthropological history is in error.
	It could be wrong?
	Not only could it be wrong, but it could be blasphemously wrong.
	The problem we have with anthropology in the Americas There was some programming the other night on television which suggested that the sources for the Native American Indians, and the whole rationale was, look at their faces and you can tell where they come from.
	And my comment is, if I look at Native American Indians, I can't tell a thing about where they come from.
	And they presume that because the Native American Indians were not known to Western Europeans until 1492, basically, And because China itself was an unknown civilization, that somehow these two unknown civilizations crossed the Nismos at the time of the last ice age, and that there was some melding toward the end that let the corridor down through Canada, and therefore the Native American Indians must be predominantly Oriental.
	The answer to that question is, who thought up that idea?
	Because that's silly.
	Because that could not possibly be the predominant source for the Native American Indians.
	So, there is little doubt that Native American Indians do have oriental genes in their body.
	Their body part, there's a piece to the pelvis that is very, I am not a morphologist, so I can't tell you specifically, but there's a piece to the pelvis that is very oriental in nature and connects it back to the Far East.
	But, there are other facial characteristics and bone structures and morphological structures which are very Western European and Middle Eastern.
	So, we're talking about a race of people who, because they are an enigma to us, we make wild assertions about their origins.
	And when we start to define origins and make those definitions rigid, without having explored all the possibilities, Then we introduce error into the system.
	The biggest problem we have in America is that we have rushed to close our minds and to preserve our ideas or philosophies about where we came from, who we are, and what our values are.
	Well, you know though, I think that that is less true.
	of the average person when presented with information like they're getting tonight from you and have had from others including Linda Moulton Howe and many others.
	And more true of people who research and write papers in the field.
	I think they're the ones that have pretty much closed the door.
	And, you know, new information comes along and threatens careers, Glenn.
	Well, there's little doubt that you're exactly right, Art, is that We can blame our scholastical institutions for closing the doors on discovery.
	How sure are you that they're wrong?
	I am absolutely positive in my own mind.
	Now, if you want me to produce evidence, I can produce a mountain of evidence, but then Carl Sagan's platitude comes into being that preposterous claims or enormous claims require enormous evidence.
	And so we have to decide how much evidence is definitive evidence.
	And I think Carl Sagan was pragmatically right, but he was certainly describing an unfair system.
	We don't play on the level playing field when we talk about discovery.
	When we were kids, Art, didn't you dream about being an explorer or an adventurer?
	I did.
	Me too.
	But you know, today we could not be Christopher Columbus.
	It's not possible.
	And the reason we couldn't be Christopher Columbus is because we couldn't sail on an ocean to a foreign land, stick a stake in the dirt and say, I claim this for the kingdom of Nye.
	No, we can't do that anymore.
	No one's going to let you do that anymore.
	No, no.
	But there are unexplored venues.
	There's under the ground.
	There's space.
	There are new frontiers for us to explore.
	And I know you're squaring into the middle of one right now.
	And I think one frontier is to find out the truth, the real truth, or as much as we can determine, about our real origins as a human species.
	Well, certainly our origins will help us Create the protocol to solve our problems today.
	Every single protocol that we use in our day and age today stem from a historical protocol.
	Every system, our universities are based on a historical system.
	Well Glenn, our science has followed a certain kind of linear progression of investigation and as a result we have laws of physics and we have other things that we follow And sometimes I think that we don't investigate what we would, I guess, consider alternative avenues, because it's just not what you do.
	You follow the prescribed rules.
	And maybe we're operating on the wrong set of rules, or maybe there's just a whole set of rules we don't understand at all.
	But if people were moving rocks and doing things that even today are impossible, that means There was a technology, probably still is if we knew how to use it, that we simply don't have a clue about.
	There must be.
	Well, there most certainly was.
	And there were traffic.
	There were three types of traffic that we still have not discussed fairly and openly in the common public.
	We haven't talked about the merchant traffic to the Americas.
	We haven't talked about the drug traffic to the Americas.
	And we most certainly have not talked about The refugees from various crises throughout history who have come to the Americas to escape their crises.
	And there were three major reasons for sailing across the ocean.
	You know, they just made that great big find up in Newfoundland, where they found a boat that was 110 feet long that had 100 sailors in it.
	I'm sorry, that was not the size of the Nina, Pinta, and the Santa Maria, which were little teeny, tiny vessels.
	This was a merchant vessel that was coming across from Norway doing business in the Americas.
	You don't sail across the ocean on an exploratory voyage in a 110-foot vessel with 100 men on board rowing.
	This vessel was obviously going back and forth for some other purpose than exploration.
	There you are.
	You also heard, I'm sure, about the pending incredible discovery off the coast of Cuba, right?
	Most definitely.
	Well, somehow that fits into all of this.
	I'm not exactly sure how yet, but it's just another piece of significant evidence pointing toward this incredible lack of knowledge about everything and the way it began and who we are and all the rest of it.
	All right, in a moment I would like to bring you back and we'll talk about what's been found and what you have explored.
	And folks, we've got photos.
	In the state of Illinois, underground.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is Coast to Coast AM.
	Don't touch that dial.
	We're not talking about Zahi Awas' Egypt.
	We're not talking about Bolivia.
	We're not talking about even what's under the sea and or off the western coast of Cuba.
	What we are talking about is a cave in the state of Illinois.
	And there are a number of questions that I would like answered about this cave.
	Glenn, let me pepper you with a few questions.
	How did you discover this cave?
	While I was doing my stint in Chile and Peru and Mexico, Wayne May was up here doing his archaeological tours of the United States.
	While we were both on the speaking circuit back here a number of years ago, we met some individuals who had done exploration Obviously at various sites, but most particularly in Southern Illinois.
	That was most attractive to me because I taught at Southern Illinois University, and I listened intently to these discoveries.
	They sounded preposterous, except to say that having lived in Southern Illinois, I knew that Southern Illinois itself is called Little Egypt and still is to this very day.
	It's the site of Cairo, Illinois they call it.
	Or Cairo and Memphis, Tennessee.
	Okay, but he told you about the location of the cave?
	Yeah, there was a gentleman at one of these conventions that told us about a cave specifically in southern Illinois.
	Wayne, first of all, and then later myself, we cornered him and asked him the actual location.
	He asked for a sum of money to take us to that cave site.
	Believe it or not, we did it.
	You did?
	Yeah.
	So you paid your way in, really?
	Well, we paid away to the site.
	Outrageous sum of money?
	I don't need to know the exact amount.
	I mean, a lot of money?
	It was enough money to where it stung.
	However, the plan was not to give the entire sum of money until we were actually inside the cave.
	And the reality is that the individual ducked out of lunch with a goodly-sized check.
	Disappeared, and so what happened is Wayne specifically and some of the boys from Discovery Resources were left very angry.
	They decided to do the very natural thing, which was to go to the county recorder and find out who owned the ground that they were standing on.
	And?
	And they did find out that this did not belong to the individual that they had been talking to.
	And I went to the owner of the property and said, have you heard any rumors about people doing archaeological work on your site?
	And the owner said, no.
	They had never heard of such a thing.
	Do you tell us where this cave is, or do you not tell us?
	I don't ever tell anybody the exact location.
	I don't need the woodstock in the forest.
	It's my understanding that the people in the town... I'll tell you where, and I'll take you there.
	Will you?
	Yes.
	All right, let's mark that one down as something that I guess I should do.
	But the people in the town in question, without mentioning it, are not aware of it.
	You know that, don't you?
	That's not correct.
	That is not correct?
	That is not correct.
	Well, we have some people checking in that town, and they said they were unaware of any archaeological digs going on.
	Well, they have to ask the right people.
	Apparently so.
	In other words, I guess it's not And I don't want to violate someone's privacy to give someone's name out in the air.
	So then this is privately owned land, is that correct?
	Very definitely.
	Some farmer or something like that?
	Yes.
	A very nice family who has had this property for four generations.
	Well, the money that you paid, what did that supposedly include?
	In other words, did you think you were buying the land on which this came?
	Absolutely not.
	We were buying a story for the magazine.
	A story for the magazine?
	Right.
	Which is totally logical.
	I mean, you do that from time to time.
	And it was such a big story that we thought we'd get some good press, or at least Wayne thought he'd get some good press out of that.
	And the fact of the matter remains is that the gentleman didn't come through.
	And so, in essence, they parted sheets at that moment.
	What eventually happened here was that Wayne went to the property owners.
	They denied that there was any archaeology on the site, but Wayne being the intrepid explorer, this guy has got more enthusiasm than you and I both.
	This guy is really a go-getter, and he has to be to do the kind of work he does in the journalistic field.
	But in either case, what they did is they went and Discovery Resources had some equipment.
	They had some GPRs and sonograms.
	GPRs?
	What's a GPR?
	A GPR is above ground electromagnetic detection equipment that tells you what's underneath the surface of the ground.
	Metal detection you mean?
	No, actually it's sonogram.
	It tells you the geological structures.
	Alright.
	They did have a piece of metal detection equipment with them as well, which is a different piece of equipment.
	Okay.
	So there were really four pieces of equipment used on the site.
	They drugged this equipment over just to check out to see if this guy was lying because maybe we'll hold crucifixions on his lawn.
	So you got permission from the owner of the land?
	Absolutely.
	Oh, okay.
	And by the way, while Wayne was sitting in the home of the landowner, the gentleman in question called and complained that there were looters on his property taking archaeological artifacts off the site.
	And the owner of the property said, you mean the gentleman sitting in my living room?
	Oh, really?
	Really.
	Yeah, that's quite a story.
	So it's kind of the, gives new meaning to the word whoops, you know.
	But in either case, what they did is they drug some equipment across the ground and
	they got some hits.
	They found out that this place was a cavernous monster filled with limestone caverns.
	Were there actually any openings to explore or was this just all above ground?
	The landowner seemed to indicate that there had been a couple of cave openings.
	However, when Wayne and I went back, there were no cave openings anywhere on the property and the farmer could not any longer locate the openings to the cavern.
	And to be honest with you, in our last little venture here two weeks ago, we found out why we could not find any openings.
	Why not?
	Uh, we've taken horizontal, uh, sonograms and found out that the entrance, the original entrance to the cave has been blown to a million smithereens by a black powder explosion.
	And dumped about... So, somebody closed it up?
	Someone deliberately blew it up.
	Do you have any idea when that occurred?
	Time frame?
	Yes.
	It looks like a...
	A modern event, probably 15 to 20 years ago.
	Wow.
	So, somebody... Somebody really... Let's think about this.
	They don't want what's down there found.
	They don't want it desecrated.
	They don't want it explored.
	What?
	They want to cover the tracks, Art, because they've looted the cave.
	That's my opinion.
	Because they've looted the cave.
	What good would it do, Glenn, to remove the artifacts from the cave, blow the cave entrance, and then not be able to give any history of what you've got?
	Because many of the artifacts were, in fact, precious metal, which were converted into cash.
	As in gold and whatever?
	Yes.
	Oh.
	And so, you know, some artifacts can be sold for money, but gold is a very short Well, it certainly is, but wouldn't such a discovery be so incredible so that the artifacts would be worth so much more for what they are rather than, you know, the weight, the metal weight?
	Art, you're talking about someone who has your intelligence.
	I suspect that these people were not as bright as you are.
	Uh, pardon me, I don't want to offend anybody out there.
	Or maybe they didn't have the rights to these things.
	Well, there's no doubt they had no right.
	It's like going onto your property and saying, please let me borrow all your weed off your wheat field and I'm not going to pay you for it.
	Well, that might explain most of that.
	Oh, yeah.
	So, they blew these things to hell and back.
	The cave entrances are gone.
	Well, the cave entrance was interesting for one reason, Art, because it was a 110-foot spiral stone-carved staircase down into the ground.
	What?
	How do you know that?
	Pictures.
	Excuse me?
	Well, we're talking about sonograms here.
	Detection equipment detected that there was a 110-foot spiral staircase From the surface down into the lower cavern.
	Holy mackerel!
	Alright, how far down can your equipment provide imagery?
	That's really stretching it right there, to be honest with you.
	It goes a little farther depending upon the terrain and the water tables and other things.
	We're lucky this is a little bit of a rolling hill and we were taking a sideways glance to it so we're really not talking about the full 110 feet.
	Sure.
	We're talking about a sideways view of it.
	I see.
	On a hill.
	Gotcha.
	So instead of going straight down you're looking to some degree sideways probably.
	That's right.
	Alright.
	And part of our original problem in finding a site to begin with was all of our detection equipment was straight down through the earth and so we had a two-dimensional map.
	Right.
	And when we got the horizontal equipment on site here two weeks ago, we realized how we had made a terrible blunder in picking the site to open the cave that we did.
	Because everything was true about the door that we had chosen, with the exception that it had blown the smithereens.
	And the interior of it was debris-laden all the way down through the staircase.
	So there was no passageway and there was no Reasonable time frame to to excavate that out.
	So what we did is we went back.
	This cavern is really about 520.
	It's an inverted V shape.
	And by the way, that picture is on your website.
	OK, I'm looking at any number of of photographs.
	And I just didn't start at the beginning because that's where everybody's going to start, folks.
	To see the photographs, we're about to talk about goodartbill.com.
	under uh... program tonight's guest info uh... click on that
	uh... when you do you'll see the name glenn kimball below that you'll see
	photos a link that says photos of artifacts and analysis click on that and follow along with us
	uh... these claim to be uh... from the cave
	in illinois and now
	these are these are artifacts that are either held by wayne mayor myself
	or by the local collectors.
	So when you say nobody in the town knows what we're talking about, someone's giving you a little bit of bent poop here, because there are people who have collections all over the place.
	Well, let's put it this way.
	It's not front page news in that town, so a lot of people don't know about it.
	All right, now look.
	Let's take this first photograph.
	What have we got here?
	This... I can't even... What is this?
	This very first photograph is illustrative of probably one of the original groups of people who came to the cave site.
	The most interesting thing about this picture are the sidewalks of hair.
	This is in stone, right?
	Very much so.
	Okay.
	And it has a little ruler underneath it.
	I see that.
	Some sort of a dimension on how big it is.
	That's a one-foot ruler?
	Yes, it is.
	Okay.
	So these are By the way, there are some 7,000 of these particular artifacts.
	Where did you get this?
	Did this come from above ground?
	Did this come from underground?
	This came from private collectors in the neighborhood.
	In the neighborhood?
	Who had been sold these artifacts by the people who had obviously looted the cave.
	Holy smokes.
	Alright, so... I can't quite... In other words, it's very clear what I'm seeing, but I don't know what it is.
	It's a photograph of a person.
	Well, we don't know either, with the exception of the dress is very typical.
	It's hard for me to put 7,000 photos on the site, but it's illustrative of a very common type of dress, and we're going to see several of the common types of dress.
	There's really three separate motifs here.
	One is a very Palestinian motive, with the Jewish locks and the hair and the headdress, which is very Jewish.
	If you go down to the very bottom of that very same page, you'll see a dark slate-like rock.
	And you'll see another one of the very prominently displayed type of people who were involved in this cave, which were obviously a very black race.
	Well, it's a black stone.
	I guess it represents... Can you not see the face on there?
	I can.
	You can't?
	I can.
	These people... I'll tell you the story.
	We're putting the pieces of the story together this way.
	If you go to the very last page, and I apologize, these are not in order, and we probably haven't rehearsed this well enough, but the very last picture on this, on these three segments of photographs
	is a mother black figure
	who is wearing a very typical headdress a very dated headdress this this stone
	that this headdress that he is wearing is a of a morey sailor off the northern coast of africa in the
	first century so in other words the headdress
	absolutely critical in dating the people who were inside this case
	Well, now I'm looking at the first photograph on the second page.
	And it looks like somebody holding a staff of some sort.
	Okay, now that one's not the one.
	Then we'll talk about that one in a moment.
	Then which one are you talking about?
	It's on the third page.
	Third page, okay.
	Okay, and you go to the very bottom.
	Boy, a lot of photographs here.
	You go to the very bottom and you'll see another black stone.
	Oh, okay, I'm there.
	And you notice the little headdress with the little peak on the front of it?
	Yes.
	That is a very, very typical headdress.
	Now, these are sailing headdresses.
	These are the Moorish sailors who sailed in the first century off the northern coast of Africa.
	To put this into perspective, if you saw the movie Gladiator, and you saw him in the coliseums, in the dusty coliseums.
	Of course.
	They were coliseums on the northern coast of Africa in the first century.
	Now obviously the ones in Gladiator were at the time of Marcus Aurelius in 125 AD, 124 AD roughly, but these sailors were just being phased out at that particular moment in time and you notice in the movie Gladiator 2 that they also had a, one of the characters was a Was a Moorish sailor, and if you look very closely, you'll see some of these kinds of headdresses there as well.
	Okay, and again, all of these thus far have come from people in the area who received these from whoever removed them from the cave.
	Yes.
	And how long ago did they become in receipt of these?
	1984.
	82 to 84.
	82 to 84.
	What happened there?
	When you take these to experts and you say, what is this?
	What do they say?
	Well, they say what every logical archaeologist would say, where's your provenance?
	And they're absolutely correct.
	All right, where is your provenance?
	Yeah, and they're absolutely right.
	There is no provenance for these particular artifacts.
	That's why we've hired a professional archaeologist with a license for the state of Illinois when we go back into the cave.
	Okay, well how do you know that these came from that cave in Illinois?
	How do you know that?
	How can you know that?
	Well, other than people's word and one other thing, and that is a consistency amongst the collections, and that when we go back into the cave, The only hope for these artifacts to be worth anything or to be of any value historically to anybody is for us to actually open the cave and find similar artifacts.
	Correct.
	Otherwise, they're worthless.
	What would an expert tell you if he didn't believe they came from a cave there in Illinois?
	Where would he think they came from?
	Well, in this particular case, he would think that they came from Northern Africa or Alexandria, Egypt, or the southern coast of Palestine near Jerusalem.
	And he would probably certainly think that way before he would think a cave in Illinois.
	Almost certainly.
	Illinois is a preposterous suggestion to these people.
	It is preposterous.
	And why do you not think it's preposterous?
	Why do you not think so?
	Well, we're going to provide a little bit of that evidence tonight, Art.
	Because we have some more photos here to look at.
	We have been there in the last two weeks, and we've taken new photographs down through the center of the Earth, and we have some marvelous things to show that have been first time nowhere else seen ever.
	All right, well that's what's coming up next.
	Stay right where you are.
	Glenn Kimball is my guest, archaeology in the middle of Illinois.
	I guess so.
	I'm Art Bell.
	I'm a writer.
	Like a dog without a bone and Hacker on a roll.
	Riders on the storm.
	There's a killer on the road.
	His brain is squirming like a toad.
	Take a long holiday.
	Once again, here's Glenn Kimball.
	art bell in the kingdom of nigh from west of the rockies at one eight hundred
	six one eight eight two five five east of the rockies one eight hundred eight
	two five five zero three three once again here's glenn kimball and uh...
	glenn of the second photograph down on the first page shows what
	appear to be golden colored artifacts uh... with uh... inscriptions on
	them some kind of writing
	uh... one appears to be obviously it Egyptian no question about it is
	It is Egyptian, it must be.
	These are gold.
	They are gold?
	Solid gold.
	Solid gold.
	And they are, a couple of the pieces are in our possession, some of them are not.
	Some of them are in the possession of the locals.
	I'm telling you if you're going to manufacture artifacts, don't do it out of gold, it's very
	expensive.
	Oh yes.
	So you've got some of these, you're in physical possession of some of these and some are in
	local hands in the area of this caver in the town where they are.
	That's correct.
	How far geographically around the town were these artifacts sold?
	2,000 miles.
	2,000 miles?
	That's two-thirds of America.
	That's correct.
	There's some in California, there's some in New York.
	One of the most precious artifacts that we will be looking for to have returned is in Chicago.
	We have a trace out on that.
	We have a trace out on banking and all kinds of things out where we're finding hits.
	We're not going to try and try a case here on the air tonight, Art.
	To the people that these artifacts were sold, how were they represented?
	Representatives coming from where?
	The golden artifacts were represented as merely antiquities gold weight value, and I think the owner from his own lips sold short on the actual gold itself.
	The antiquities, the stones, were sold after people would show interest in the tale of Illinois, and they would say, would you like a stone from the cave, or ten stones, or a hundred stones, or in some cases five hundred stones.
	And he would sell them in lots.
	Okay, but they were represented as coming from a cave in Illinois.
	That's correct.
	Wow.
	Alright.
	You would think that people in possession of something like this would instead represent them as coming from, I don't know, South America or perhaps Egypt or Something more likely and easier to sell as a story.
	Well, I find, the people that I've talked to that are in possession of artifacts, and as they've been so kind to display, I had one gentleman just open up his garage and lay out so many of them, it took us all day to film.
	These people are generally serious, very concerned, very nice people.
	I used to live there.
	I fell in love with the area.
	They're nice people.
	Okay.
	And we're not talking about people who have grandiose ideas by and large about what's going on here.
	They largely love to be included, to be a participant in what they feel will be eventually a major find in America.
	A find.
	How do we take this story from myth and legend To some sort of grounding in reality.
	In other words, what have you done in the last two weeks?
	Well, it's very important that we understand, if we go to the second page of the photos.
	On my way.
	There's a map.
	Let's see, how far down is it?
	I think it's three pictures down.
	Okay, I see it.
	Hand drawn map.
	I see it.
	This entire map is drawn Based on actual GPR, seismic, AccuMeter, and other instrumentation detections of caverns in the Earth.
	Who drew the map?
	Wayne and Discovery Resources.
	They did it inch by inch, foot by foot, very, very carefully.
	Now if you notice down in the lower left hand of that map... Yes?
	Uh, there's a little one type of... I see it.
	Yes, number one.
	That's where the cave was blown up.
	That's where it was blown up.
	Yeah, that's where we were going to enter, uh, come two weeks ago.
	Uh, we would have had to travel up a, a curving, but rather, uh, direct 525 feet cavern.
	The backside, you notice it looks like an inverted V here.
	Yes.
	Okay, the back side of this cavern was where all the good stuff was.
	Now, let's follow the cavern up.
	Go up through the cavern 525 feet.
	That very top square in the top is the largest chamber in the entire cave.
	The 45 by 50?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Inside that, it's the largest space, cavernous space.
	Okay, now how do you know this?
	You've never been up there, you haven't been able to get into the cave, so how do you know that even exists?
	We have detection equipment that have measured it most precisely.
	Now, what kind of detection equipment?
	In this particular case, an AccuMeter.
	An AccuMeter.
	And what is that?
	It measures electrical resistance, tells you where the cave walls are, how much the space is in between the cave walls.
	I see, I see.
	And so they're able to measure it most precisely.
	So in other words, using this math, You took your meter and you looked for this particular space and found it?
	No.
	We used the meter to tell us where the space was.
	We used our equipment to draw this map for us.
	Oh.
	This map was never... This is not a map that we drew and then tried to find it.
	This is a map that the equipment drew for us.
	Okay, how do you know that These spaces, the one we're talking about now, the largest of them, we'll talk about for a second, is not a natural occurrence.
	In other words, how do you know that, or is it a natural occurrence?
	If you go two photos down from the one with the map on it, it gives you kind of an indication of how Uh, seismic equipment works.
	You notice that there are four little indentations with little yellow circles on them?
	Correct.
	If you go back up to the map, you can find those same four spaces there, as you, just rounding the corner, coming back down.
	I see them, yes.
	And they're all yellow.
	And the reason why they are yellow is for a very important reason.
	Because inside those spaces, we have detected hits for gold.
	Now, that's interesting.
	I, for example, own a metal detector, and I still have not figured out how it works, Glenn, but this metal detector, and I've proven it to myself, can detect gold, silver, it'll tell you in its digital readout if it's a ring, and what kind of precious metal it is, and how far down in the earth it is, and I don't have the slightest clue How this metal detector, a very modern one, delineates between precious metals.
	As a matter of fact, it will even tell you if it's junk metal.
	And how do these things delineate between precious metals and junk?
	Well, I'll tell you, the piece of metal detection equipment we use, there's only four of them in the entire world.
	It's a very large and sophisticated piece of equipment that goes down very deep into the earth.
	And so you're asking me a piece of technology that I... I'm sorry, it's beyond my scope.
	It's beyond mine, too.
	I don't have a clue how it's done, but I have actually buried things myself just to, you know, to test it.
	I buried a gold ring, and by God, it read a gold ring 12 or 13 inches below the earth.
	So it does work.
	It works.
	Well, let me tell you also, Art, in each of these caverns, we're not talking about over 100 feet.
	We're talking about less than 100 feet below the surface.
	Is there any way to determine, Glenn, whether they are naturally occurring spaces or whether they have been dug out?
	Most of it's naturally occurring, and we're not going to presume anything to the contrary.
	Until we get inside the cave.
	Okay.
	I think it would be a preposterous claim, though I secretly, in the back of my mind, know that some of these caverns were, after the people had lived there for such a long time, certainly had to be dug out in some fashion.
	Do you think that people actually lived underground, or do you think that this was just where they stored their goodies?
	I think neither one.
	I think this was used as a, not as a storage site, but as Well, it's a ceremony of almost horizontal blue lines.
	Oh, yes.
	Okay, and let me tell you what we're seeing here.
	First of all, what kind of overhead scan it says?
	We're looking down at about a little bit more than a 45 degree angle into this cavern.
	Okay.
	And this cavern is a sonogram recording, or a GPR recording in essence.
	And the problem with the GPR from time to time is that if you get a very solid surface, like if you were to look at a piece of glass or to look at a golden table or something, it is very reflective.
	And it will reflect differently than if you have a stone which is absorbent or semi-permeable.
	Alright, at the top of this picture there's a thick white line.
	Is that the... That's off the map.
	That's off the picture.
	But you notice two blue bulbs that are kind of like hanging from a ceiling there?
	Yes.
	I believe that those, the originators, the rumors are that those are helmets in this cave.
	Helmets?
	Yeah.
	There's rumored to be a store of arms inside this cavern.
	Arms?
	That means breastplates, swords, shields, helmets.
	These, and that there were a line of helmets hung on the walls inside this cave.
	Wow.
	Alright.
	We're believing that those two blue circles there hanging, looking like they're hanging from a ceiling, are probably helmets hanging on a wall.
	Now the one that's really bizarre here is the little floating image in between the two helmets.
	That's right.
	Looks like a mummy.
	Oh my God, it does.
	Because it is a mummy.
	And it's laying on a reflective surface which has reflected that image into the air.
	That little table thing that's underneath it?
	It does look like a mummy, gosh.
	That is a mummy.
	We have a problem with this cave because if we go, when we go into this cave, if we find any mummies, we immediately must call the county coroner within a prescribed number of hours and we're not talking about a day, okay?
	And you must bring the county coroner back, and he must determine that these people are not recently dead.
	Well, I would think if it's a mummy, and it's been down there, well, of course, it could be as recent, I suppose, as even the 80s.
	You have no way of knowing, really.
	Well, for one thing, it's law.
	So it won't make any difference what my opinion will be.
	It'll only make a difference what his opinion is.
	If in fact it becomes an antiquity of sorts, then we can proceed.
	But one of the strange features about this cave opening is that we have to have a coroner on call, so that we do not violate the law of the state of Illinois.
	Right.
	Okay?
	But in any case, if you look at this red photograph again, there are many reflective surfaces in here.
	One of the things that has been rumored inside this cave is obviously that there are burial chambers, And that many of these people were buried not just on dirt floors, but either on precious metal or on either marble-like rock or something that reflects sonograms prolifically.
	How much precious metal do you continue to detect?
	We're talking about, we have We are presuming from our equipment that there are probably still 28 statues left in the cave.
	At least one of them is the solid stuff.
	Solid gold.
	Pure stuff.
	The gold stuff.
	And each of the other ones are adorned with at least ornaments or veneers of some sort.
	Just curious about normal human greed, if people were down here Before, those who blew up the entrance, why would they not have removed the solid stuff, all of the solids?
	You cannot lift 2,000 pounds of statue off the ground.
	Excuse me?
	You're telling me 2... Did you say 2,000 pounds?
	What would a five and a half foot statue weigh, Art?
	Solid gold?
	Yes.
	It's heavier than me, and that's pretty tough to imagine.
	Between me and you, you're the lighter version.
	That's a lot of gold.
	As you look at what they did, they took out what they could, figured they had enough, didn't want to let anybody else in, so blew the cave.
	Actually, I feel like they had a time pressure.
	They knew that people were getting wind of what was going on, they saw the money trails, they saw the affluence.
	He was afraid.
	I'm assuming that the people who were involved in this were afraid of being caught on someone's property and having their bank accounts closed down.
	They probably did a superficial job of looting.
	And when things got hot, and I could tell you this, I will tell you someday that story, but at this moment, let's let that go.
	The situation got very intense, very hot for the perpetrators.
	And they blew the cave to cover their tracks and to preserve the revenue that they had in their pockets.
	We're presuming that it ranged around $12 million.
	Oh, my.
	Hold on, hold on.
	We'll get right back to you, Glenn.
	Glenn Kimball is my guest.
	I'm Art Bell.
	I tell you, you might want to take a look.
	Go to my website in case you're wondering, how do I get there?
	How do I see the photographs?
	Everybody always asks.
	Go to my website, artbell.com.
	All right?
	And go to Program, second item down, Tonight's Guest Info.
	You'll see the name Glenn Kimball.
	And you'll see a link that says Photos of Artifacts and Analysis.
	You'll also see a website for ancientamerican.com.
	But click on the first link.
	And then sort of proceed down, take a look at the first photos.
	Go to the second page, second photo down.
	And you'll see overhead scan, and I'll be damned if it does not look like a mummy.
	It looks like a mummy suspended for all intents and purposes in air, the way we're looking at it here.
	It really does look like a mummy.
	Once again, Glenn Kimball.
	Glenn, when are you going to get into... Do you have permission to proceed to open this cave to dig?
	Well, most certainly, Art.
	This is a professional organization.
	We have a full-fledged, professional, licensed archaeologist for the state of Illinois.
	He does not live there.
	He lives in Wisconsin.
	We have a full-fledged team, experienced team of manuscript experts, which we want to talk about what they're going to find in the cave.
	We have a full-fledged team of equipment specialists, That's Discovery Resources, those are the boys with the big toys.
	Wayne Mays coordinating the event.
	Where's all the money for this coming from?
	Basically, we're doing mostly out of our pocket.
	Out of pocket?
	We're not going to make money off the artifacts art, so everyone's just going to have to forget that.
	Alright, what is your personal motivation?
	My personal motivation is we're going to do some media.
	We're going to do my TV show, we're going to do some film work, the gold is in the film in this particular case, and also there's one big cash cow is that we're going to tour with an exposition with these artifacts as well.
	Once we've opened the cave.
	Now do you, once you get the cave open, if you find everything you think is there, the artifacts, all of it, even the gold, can you legally Remove it, and to whom does it belong?
	I mean, how does that work, the legal aspect of it?
	Obviously it belongs, whatever ownership might be there would belong to the landowners and whatever, the laws of the land state.
	The law of the land state has an interesting blurb of formula, and I'm not going to try and preset that into the minds of the state of Illinois or the federal government by stating what I think on the air tonight.
	But it's a shared process between the landowner and And the powers that be in this country, and it's a very fair arrangement.
	I'm not going to dispute that in any way.
	It's done for the protection of artifacts.
	What normally happens in the past with people who have gone in to discover places like this, no one's obviously discovered a place like this, but something new would be that they would go in with the intention of looting it, and they would not bring responsible parties to the scene.
	And therefore, the federal government kicks them off.
	I mean, that's just what happens.
	We're in hopes that by demonstrating a responsible posture, by not presuming to enrich ourselves by the artifacts themselves, by bringing proper media, proper archaeological teams, proper ancient text teams together, etc., etc., we brought the best in the country to the site.
	Who are they going to replace the best with?
	That's our thought.
	There will be some who will say, look, these must, if they are really there, represent Native American artifacts and you are desecrating a site.
	How do you respond to that?
	I don't see the Native American influence in this particular cave.
	However, there probably is a strong one.
	And I'm not going to dispute that.
	I'll allow whatever laws in the land pervade.
	We're not fighting anybody.
	We're not fighting the tribal traditions in the area.
	We're not out to conflict with anybody.
	It does not look like it's Native American, but I'm sure that claim would be made, obviously.
	And we anticipate that, and we're certainly going to be willing to entertain a rational discussion on the issue.
	You know, if everyone draws swords at this moment in history, we won't know anything about this for 25 years.
	Okay, let's try this.
	With regard to the text that might be found there, were there any texts removed that you're aware of from the original looting?
	Absolutely not.
	No, huh?
	So they weren't interested in that.
	They were interested in the other stuff.
	Absolutely.
	Okay, what kind of texts would you expect to find?
	Well, Art, the story of the cave, we've never really gotten into it, you and I, but presuming that there are three different cultures represented here, one being a Palestinian or Hebrew culture, one being Egyptian, and one being on the northern coast of Africa.
	Egypt is Africa, but we're talking about to the West, Western African.
	We're talking about a group of people that very likely left around the time of the first century at the dispute, probably during the time of the Jewish wars.
	These people would have been refugees from that system.
	They would have been wealthy people who could have hired Mauritanian sailors who had sailed here on merchant vessels and merchant voyages before.
	I knew where they were going.
	I sailed up to Mississippi.
	But this will just, it will upset all of our history.
	Well, you know, to some extent.
	Oh, you're absolutely right, Art.
	And I hope, I hope I'm there when, for the touche.
	You know, I need a good touche on this one.
	We will demonstrate that they were more than, this is not the only time that these people use these trade routes.
	Christopher Columbus sailed from Portugal, basically used the currents in the ocean.
	One might have thought that he would have landed somewhere in Nova Scotia or near Boston or something.
	Obviously, the currents in the ocean took him to the Caribbean, which is exactly where the Morris sailors landed.
	They sailed up the backside of Florida.
	They found that the Mississippi had a higher water content at that moment in history.
	Some 2,000 years ago, and they were able to sail and navigate up the stream up to where the Ohio and the Mississippi meet in southern Illinois.
	So it was navigable.
	And by the way, by that time, there had already been merchant traffic from the north, from farther north in Wisconsin and Michigan and in northern Illinois down through the Ohio and Mississippi, basically.
	And they had traffic from west to east.
	So these Moorish sailors brought these people here, and it wasn't their first time here, and excuse me, you know, it's too bad if there were more than one voyage here.
	But this particular site appears to have been used over a long period of time because the images that we have seen in the artifacts span about four or five hundred years.
	So they're centered.
	I mean, four or five hundred years sounds like a long time.
	That's really kind of centered.
	It's not like a completely random selection.
	Alright then, what kind of writings would you expect to find, or do you imagine?
	These people would not have come here in crisis without bringing with them their traditions.
	These people were not scribal.
	We noticed, for example, from one of the major finds that we have, the very first picture on the second page.
	Let me take a look.
	Very first picture, yes.
	He's holding a staff.
	Yes.
	And you notice the writing that's very prominent down on the left side.
	Absolutely.
	Do you know what that is?
	Yes, we do.
	What is it?
	It's a form of pidgin Hebrew.
	It is not exactly Hebrew because some of the symbols are transposed.
	And a little bit cockeyed.
	And if you ask Jim Long, who's Mendel Jones' sidekick, he has a term for it, but I'm not quite sure that's accurate at this moment.
	I call it Pidget Hebrew because it appears to me that it was originally Hebrew that has evolved over a hundred years.
	Do we know what that means?
	What it says?
	Yes.
	Melchizedek.
	Really?
	Really?
	Yes.
	You know who Melchizedek was?
	Yes.
	Melchizedek was the King of Salem, or the King of Bethlehem, to whom Abraham paid tithing.
	Scary, huh?
	Well, what it's going to do is... This piece that we're looking at, with the man holding the staff, where did this come from?
	That came... I know exactly where that came from, because I took this picture.
	Okay, let's hear it.
	This came from a collection in Southern Illinois.
	A very gracious gentleman allowed us.
	He spread out his whole collection, which was formidable.
	Very varied.
	It looked like there weren't two pieces that were similar.
	And again, this man represented to you that this was given or sold to him by people who claimed it came from the cave in Illinois.
	Exactly.
	Well what do they say?
	gentlemen allowed others to see it archaeologists people who would do
	it all of course his gracious gentleman
	and let you see it if you come with a picnic really but yet
	and i think i think he should have been to wait to pick up people
	i hope he keeps it i hope he keeps his garage close or what do they say i mean
	what what did the experts say about this for the sakes
	uh... there are underground uh... traders in illinois and in uh...
	indiana and and tennessee and kentucky that trade in in artifacts
	and have often traded in the church artifacts he brought the facts and
	native american indian artifacts to make a living on this full-time
	I met some of them when I was there two weeks ago.
	This is absolutely not Native American.
	There's no way.
	No, this is not Native American at all.
	Somewhat Egyptian or Greek to me, I'm not sure.
	That's the closest I could come, but I'm not even sure about that.
	It's Egyptian.
	Melchizedek was the king of Salem, who was an Egyptian king.
	He worked under the auspices of the pharaoh of Egypt in that era.
	But this is completely impossible.
	I mean, it's absolutely impossible.
	Perhaps.
	Perhaps.
	I'm so flabbergasted I don't know how to retort to that, Art.
	You wait until... I'm going to really blow your riggie in a minute.
	Alright.
	Is this an older gentleman?
	He received this when?
	In the 80s?
	Yes, he did.
	It was his mother's collection.
	And he's a very fine, polite, kind, generous, conversant, intelligent man.
	Not a bad guy.
	Okay.
	When do you plan?
	Are you going to go down there with dynamite and blow this thing open?
	Are you going to go down there with big heavy machinery?
	Are you going to start digging by hand?
	How are you going to try and get into this cave?
	We're going to put on kid gloves and do this right.
	We're going to drill a hole to make sure that we have access to the appropriate corridor, take a lipstick camera picture of the interior to make sure that we've got it centered properly, and we're going to carefully dig Since we cannot use the original door, we are really going to be coming through the side of the cave.
	Now, if you go back up to the map, let me show you what I'm talking about here.
	The map.
	Let's see, where was the map?
	It's just above, just below the guy.
	Now, you saw where the door was on the left, and you go up that long stretch until the V inverts again.
	We have the top gold piece there.
	We come down, there are four caverns filled with golden things there.
	We keep coming down to where there's a dark area.
	I see that, yes.
	And there's an arrow.
	You see the arrow pointing left?
	I do, yes.
	It's almost to the very end.
	I see it.
	That is the entry point.
	That's the entry point?
	Where we're going to enter it.
	But you believe the original entry point was by the number one?
	That's correct.
	Oh my, so in other words, you've gone almost the entire length of this thing, short of a little bit, and that's where you're going to enter?
	We're trying to find a place that's reasonably shallow.
	Alright, how far below, that's what I was going to ask, how far below ground is that opening?
	35 feet.
	So you're going to do this much the way they explore in Egypt?
	Oh yes!
	Very carefully, Art.
	Very, very careful.
	What about the water table in the area?
	250 feet deep.
	Now that does alter because these are limestone rocks here and if you know anything about underground water, it does go up and it does go down, but in this particular region it's 250 feet down.
	So you're probably safe?
	We are definitely safe because we've drilled a hole into the cavern already and there is no water.
	Now, can I show you where we've drilled?
	Somebody told me that you drilled and dropped a camera.
	Is that true?
	No.
	Okay.
	We have drilled and we've opened up the cave.
	We have seven pictures of the interior of the cave.
	Oh, you do?
	Yes, but they are from the original looters of the cave.
	Do you have those photographs up?
	I do not have them on your site.
	Sorry.
	They must be licensed appropriately, and Keith Rowland is Johnny on the spot.
	He knows what he's doing.
	Does Keith have them?
	I don't think we even sent them to him, but I'd be delighted to send them to you.
	Would you please?
	Oh, sure.
	Okay.
	But I need to show you something, though.
	All right.
	Go to the very end of the V. We started at the left side.
	Go to the very right side.
	Yes.
	You see a little circle with an X?
	Uh, circle with an X. You gotta go all the way to the very bottom of the right side of the V. Oh, yes.
	Okay, fine.
	It would appear to me to be the end.
	Yeah, it would appear to be the end.
	We drilled a hole there into the cave.
	You did?
	Yes.
	Uh, how far down?
	Did you drill sideways or?
	Straight down.
	Straight down.
	How far?
	The hole's still there.
	How far?
	Uh, it was about 60 feet.
	Sixty feet.
	And you hit what?
	Cavern.
	Limestone cavern.
	Would that be... I assume that you went for the shallowest location?
	No.
	To drill into?
	No?
	No, we didn't have the AccuMeter at that time.
	Oh.
	We just wanted to be sure that we weren't out of our freaking minds and we wanted to drill a hole in the cave, so we carefully drilled a three-inch hole into the cave.
	And what were you able to determine from having drilled that hole?
	Well, number one... First of all, that there were caverns down there that were dry and not running with water.
	Okay.
	And that they were of sufficient size for people to have navigated, which was absolutely true.
	And at that point, there was a small little space in there, which we detected with our metal detectors.
	We wanted to kind of gauge our equipment, which we did do, and it was accurate.
	So, in essence, we tried to figure one end to the other.
	So you wanted to verify what you had mapped, and the only way to do that was to pick a location?
	And the ending point is the logical location, because then on the surface, you can see the extremes.
	Uh, of the cave.
	From the surface.
	Because when you're down underneath the ground, you can't tell anything.
	So you're going to have to dig vertically down 60 feet, is that correct?
	No, 30.
	30 to 35 feet where the arrow is.
	30 to 35 feet.
	Because it's shallower where the arrow is than it was where the X is.
	And once you're in there, you're in the whole thing, right?
	That's correct.
	Because presumably, you can navigate along the entire route.
	Yes, if you look where that arrow is, you'll notice that there's a white black mark rather than a thin black mark.
	Correct.
	That means that the passageway is wider there.
	That's part of the reason why we were interested in that site because... Can you tell me how wide at that point?
	We're talking probably 10-12 feet wide.
	Pretty wide.
	Yeah.
	So that we won't... You know, when you're going through with a piece of heavy equipment, You're concerned about collapsing a cavern and not noticing that you're actually in the cavern.
	Sure.
	So you want to pick a wide spot to where you can be careful and access it with the greatest caution that you possibly can.
	And your equipment tells you that there's not a collapse that would prevent you from navigating through this whole thing anywhere?
	Well, there is collapses.
	If you go back up the V, and you see where the four... If you go to the very point of the V, and you come back on the back side, you see the four yellow boxes.
	Yes.
	To the right is a matrix where it's largely collapsed.
	Oh, I see what you're talking about.
	All right, hold on.
	So in other words, even once inside, you're not going to be able to navigate the whole thing, but obviously you've got a clear shot, it would appear, up to where...
	Up to where the goodies would be.
	Really interesting to think about.
	And maybe you'd want to think about it a little bit.
	I have.
	Now, on the one hand, let us put ourselves in the position of people who originally found this stuff in these caves.
	What would you do if you explored a cave and you found untold riches in gold and artifacts?
	And you've got, on the one hand, over here on the right hand, you've got Millions of dollars in solid gold and artifacts.
	Over here on the other hand, you've got an opportunity to help mankind.
	To turn all of this over to archaeologists, and the man who owns the property, and the state of Illinois, and the federal government, and whoever else would put their hands into it, probably keeping your hands out of it.
	So let's see.
	Archaeologists, and the right thing to do over here on the left hand.
	Millions and millions of dollars in gold in the right hand.
	Archaeologists, History?
	Gold.
	Gold archaeologists.
	What would you do?
	Well, you might carry out the really expensive stuff and blow the hell out of the cave entrance.
	That's what you might do.
	So I guess I understand their motivation, and I'm not sure.
	I guess we could call them looters, but, you know, one man's looter is another man's treasure hunter.
	So, A question for you, Glenn.
	Without naming them, because I don't want you to, do you know or think you know the identity of the, in quotes, looters?
	I know exactly who they are.
	Oh, you do?
	We have photos of them.
	They have taken photos of themselves inside the cave.
	Oh, really?
	They've left bank records.
	They've left records with major companies like De Beers.
	The Diamond Company, De Beers?
	Yes.
	As a matter of fact, one of the treasures taken originally from the cave was sold to De Beers.
	Oh, it was, huh?
	So you heard me in the one hand, you've got all the gold and the riches and the rest of your life taken care of.
	On the other hand, you've got the archaeologists, the people from the state, the people from the federal government.
	Probably the UN, God knows.
	Everybody.
	And your chance of walking away with the riches, or any substantial portion thereof, pretty slim by the time everybody else got into the act.
	So, that's kind of what I was thinking.
	I mean, what would the average person do?
	They might collect it up, take off, get their money, and blow the hell out of the cave.
	Well, these guys are off scot-free until we open the cave, and then they would get off anyway until we open the cave.
	No one can prove they did anything until evidence is found where they took it from.
	I mean, it's like any good police investigation.
	You've got to find the body.
	So then that would mean they committed a crime?
	Yeah.
	What specific crime?
	Well, you cannot go to Yellowstone National Park and steal Old Faithful.
	No?
	Because if you have it in your front yard and it's missing in Yellowstone, someone's going to arrest you.
	Yes, but that's a national park with more protections.
	If you go to a farmer's field and you steal all the wheat off his field, and he finds out where you put that in a grain silo, and you had no grain before and no farm before, then you're probably not going to be innocent.
	We're talking about, I'd like to presume innocence.
	Until proven guilty.
	I'm going to let, and by the way, the agencies and the government are initially aware of what's going on, there have been contacts, and there will be the appropriate measures taken.
	Let's just leave it there.
	Alright, well even you have motive.
	I have a strong motive.
	You expect to make money from the filming of all of this, right?
	Of course.
	Should I lie to you?
	No, you certainly shouldn't.
	I'm telling you that there's gold in them there, Phil.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And by the way, that is going to be licensed with Wayne May and the property owner, and there are contracts involved.
	And these contracts in the works are actually signed, done deal?
	Done deals.
	When do you expect to drill?
	Without giving a date, we're not talking months, we're talking weeks.
	Weeks.
	The weather's going to get a little rough.
	It's already rough, but in this particular area, there is not traditionally a snowfall.
	Yeah, I suppose once you're so far down into the ground anyway, weather is no longer a factor.
	No.
	Just for the crew above ground, it's going to be rough.
	You know, we want to shock your audience, though.
	We want to stand your hair on the back of your head tonight, Art.
	Okay, go.
	Because there is a picture on the site I want to show you.
	Fire away.
	Go to the map picture.
	The picture just below the map picture is another one of these very fresh pictures.
	Again, program tonight's guest info, the name Glenn Kimball, have been below it.
	Photos of artifacts and analysis.
	Just... Second page.
	Okay, Joe Wright, I'm almost there.
	And I'm there.
	And there's a yellow with a black streak photo.
	It's kind of yellowish with a big white center and a black streak.
	I see it, yes.
	If you'll notice, and you'll look very closely, you will see the first evidence in history, outside those who might have been in the cave, of a statue with his arms out raised.
	Oh, I see it.
	I clearly see it.
	Are we seeing something thrilling or what?
	Alright, let's get everybody there.
	It's the second page of pictures.
	One, two, three, fourth one down.
	What kind of image are we looking at?
	The equipment is GPR equipment.
	The image, that big white space there, is a reflection off of a reflective surface.
	This image It's holding up its arms.
	In my opinion, we're probably looking at a funeral bearer.
	Yeah, this would appear, folks, to be a human of some sort standing with his arms outstretched.
	We're looking right on top of his head.
	Yeah, no question about it.
	This was taken from above ground, right?
	Absolutely, and it's fresh.
	We're talking it's two weeks old.
	Two weeks old.
	Somebody left it there and it's still there, Art.
	It's still there.
	All right, for it to reflect in the manner it is, it must be what?
	Metal?
	A reflective surface.
	It could have been glass.
	It could have been a form of quartz.
	It could be mercury.
	To be honest with you, I think it's probably a golden beer.
	There have been two independent reports of a statue with its arms out raised over a golden beer with a
	mummy sitting on the top of that.
	Wow. Oh, this is really something. This is scary. This is this is beautiful. And this is how far
	below ground? Oh, Art, this is only 50 feet below the ground. 50 feet. Yeah. And in order to give
	the relief that we see, you say that the large white area represents some sort of gigantic reflecting surface?
	Yes.
	Can you give me an idea of scale?
	In other words, size?
	That statue is between five and a half feet and eight feet tall.
	And so that'll give you some sort of scale.
	I imagine his arms are outstretched probably three feet.
	Maybe four feet.
	Three or four feet.
	That gives us plenty of scale.
	Now you know why I'm interested.
	Interested is like the euphemism of the universe here.
	By the way, all of the professionals who have used the equipment have turned to me with this face.
	You should have been there, Art.
	It was a great face.
	Well, now that's non-geologic.
	Are they able to tell how much of a space is represented there?
	In other words, you've given us a scale, but how much of a real opening is there?
	We're not talking more than 12 or 14 feet here.
	Once again, remember that fat area that we were talking about on the original map?
	Yes.
	That's where this is.
	That's where this is.
	All right.
	You're going to drill... Are you going to first drill... I mean, are you making a giant hole to really get down there, or are you going to first... We're going to cut a cross-section so we come through the wall and not through the ceiling.
	But the last thing you want to do is land on one of these statues.
	Right.
	But what I mean is, is it going to be a big enough hole to actually go down into it originally, or are you going to just drill a pilot hole first with a camera?
	A pilot hole and camera.
	That'll take us one day.
	The equipment that we have on site... That'll just take one day?
	Less than a day.
	Less than a... Wow.
	The equipment we have to dig the actual site is state-of-the-art and will only take us one day to punch the hole.
	That's why I'm saying if I call you on the phone, Art, and I say, Art, do you remember the story I told you?
	Uh-huh.
	Would you like to take a ride?
	Yes, I'd like to take this around.
	You may be interested.
	I've done a lot of crawling around.
	This won't be crawling, this will all be standing.
	I crawled in Egypt, believe me, I crawled.
	Oh, did you?
	Yeah, through some pretty dark areas, and this will be no different.
	This will be very much like it.
	Well, yeah, this will not be a scary experience.
	Oh, I don't know.
	Well, it might be scary, but it won't be crawling.
	New things are always a little scary, Glenn, always.
	This is remarkable.
	And there's something else that's frightening here, Art, and I haven't told anybody this.
	Wayne told me this, and he showed me this, and it bothered me.
	And I don't know what this is, and don't ask me, because I don't know.
	But if you go back up to this map situation, you know the four yellow boxes?
	Those are caverns.
	They are probably tomb rooms.
	Much like you might have found at Rameses Sun's tombs.
	Little rooms with bodies in them.
	You come down that corridor and you see a series of circles on the side.
	Those are five eight-foot Egyptian statues.
	Oh my goodness.
	All those circles side by side?
	Yeah, you see those circles that are vertical there?
	Sure, sure.
	Right about...
	And I can only tell you what's there, what happened, and then you're going to have to make up your own mind.
	We're coming along the surface with essentially electromagnetic equipment.
	Right near that center of the corridor there, up just a little bit between the eight-foot statues and the four golden rooms with the gold in them, We're coming along there with an ultramagnetic reader, following the caverns just nicely, just as nice as punch, easy as pie, and all of a sudden we look on the surface and something... We're looking at the surface of the ground now.
	The grass is like 11 inches high, but there's like a circle with nothing there.
	It's kind of barren, almost like a spaceship landed on this thing and burned it off, okay?
	And it's right in the path of our GPR equipment.
	We take the GPR equipment over it, and the other equipment over it, and my gosh, Art, if we go down two pictures below the map, we'll see those little indentations with the yellow circles.
	Yes.
	Instead of going down with the little indentations, it went straight to the top of the graph, squared off, and came back down on the other side of this round square.
	It maxed out for a period of about 14 feet.
	Almost like you were standing over a nuclear weapon.
	Of course, you really cannot be sure.
	I have no idea.
	I have no idea what that is.
	So you could be sitting on a discovery that is even bigger than the one we've been talking about.
	Yes.
	There's just no way to know until you get down there.
	Yes.
	And I don't know what to tell you, except the people who went in there and came out obviously got in and got out, and so it didn't kill them, you know.
	I mean, there were a couple of people who died of heart attacks, but over 20 years people die, you know.
	But there is something There was nothing down there that specifically immediately killed them?
	No, of course not.
	But there is something... I don't know.
	It just blows my mind because it's atypical of this equipment and no one's ever seen this anomaly.
	Glenn, is it your impression that those who removed allegedly what you believe they removed got through the entire I believe that they did not get to the whole thing.
	To be honest with you Art, it would be just a guess if I told you.
	I believe that they did not get to the whole thing.
	Do you have any way of guessing how much they got to and what they might not have gotten to?
	To be honest with you Art, it would be just a guess if I told you.
	They tell us that they got through a third of it, but how do you trust what they have to say?
	How many people do you think were involved in this original exploration?
	One person plus a family member and then two business partners.
	So four people?
	Only two of which were actually under the cave itself.
	The other two were merely business partners and were not allowed inside.
	The number of people who are aware of what happened then and who were part of it would be few indeed.
	So calling for someone to come forward would be useless, eh?
	And not necessarily because they left widows.
	And the widows have handed us 3,000 pictures and told us the stories.
	Really?
	And the dispute over the money is still in position?
	I'm sure.
	And they have disclosed things that we will not talk about on this program.
	Would any of these widows, do you think, at some point be available to speak on the air?
	Absolutely not.
	Why?
	I don't think it will be in their best financial interest to speak to anybody.
	Financial interest?
	Yes.
	They were benefits from the looting of the case.
	So you think then there would be legal claims against them?
	Yes, sir.
	That would make sense.
	Would you ask Charles Manson to come on and talk to you about what he did?
	These ladies are certainly not that.
	These ladies are innocent and nice people.
	Poor analogy.
	I don't think it's the same thing at all.
	No, it's not.
	It's a poor analogy.
	Their husbands discovered treasure.
	I'm not as quick to dub them looters.
	I think that the average person might well be inclined to do exactly what they did.
	It is possible.
	I've had written correspondence over the email for some time with the perpetrator himself, and my last correspondence with him was... Really?
	I sent him a letter saying, you know, you could have been a hero.
	And he wrote back, there are too many of those fellows in the world.
	And that's a quote.
	Yeah, that's too many heroes.
	All right, hold on.
	Okay.
	Well, alright, back once again to Glenn Kimball, and while we have the opportunity, Glenn, if there's anything you would like to promote, if you've got a current book out there, or anything else you want to talk about?
	Well, there's a large amount of information and images on the Ancient American Magazine site, which is posted on our Bell site.
	Right.
	There are past issues, there are lots of photographs, There's lots of interesting articles written by many different people on this particular subject, which will help people understand.
	You really need to go to that site if you want more information in terms of that.
	And by the way, there is a toll-free number that you can reach them.
	It's 877-494-0044.
	Okay.
	And who are we reaching?
	That's Wayne May directly at the Office of the Ancient American.
	All right.
	877.
	Mr. Famous himself.
	He's there.
	877-494-0044.
	Is he willing to talk on the air?
	He most certainly would love to talk to you.
	He would, huh?
	All right.
	Oh, sure.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Let's take a few phone calls.
	I've hogged you a lot here.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Glenn Kimball.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Dustin from Clinton.
	Hi, Dustin.
	Clinton, Utah.
	Utah, all right.
	Yeah, I was just, well, you know, none of this is really new to me because, well, I'm LDS, and about 170 years ago, Joseph Smith found something similar.
	Can I pass on this particular one?
	I appreciate where you're coming from, sir, but One thing I really do not want to do is mix this particular subject.
	I believe that you need to believe and do these things and there are some parallels and things that are in your mind.
	I'm biased to this.
	I don't go to church.
	I'm not active.
	I appreciate that.
	It's pretty cool that he has found these things.
	You know, other people in the past have found certain similar things and it just shows that, you know, like with the quickening thing and all that.
	One thing I don't want to do is we mix too many spoons in the bowl and we're going to change the flavor here and one of the things that we don't want to do is to orient this towards a religious discussion or towards some sort of Well, is there a religious aspect to this, and if there is, what is it?
	Let's keep it to the cave discovery important me art if I if I say that it's just for my
	Let's keep our eye on the ball well
	is there a Is there a religious aspect to this and if there is what is
	I mean?
	What may be found that could either verify or perhaps put into question what we believe?
	Art I have no problem going there I'm just asking the question.
	Well, there is one major thing.
	Yes?
	Okay, and once again, ready to get your hair stand on end, we believe that we're going to find that this five and a half foot statue is in fact the statue of Jesus with rubies in his wrists and in his ankles.
	Place there when?
	Place there with?
	No, when?
	When?
	First century A.D., right after the crucifixion of Christ.
	And if it's not Jesus, if it's some other idol, are you going to blow it up?
	Absolutely.
	I mean, blow it up with what, black powder?
	No.
	I don't like to blow it up in terms of publicity.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Like the Taliban.
	No, no, no, no, no!
	All right, come on, man.
	Slow it up in terms of publicity.
	Yeah, okay, okay, okay.
	Wildcard, why are you on here with Glenn Kimball?
	Hello.
	He's going to get me hung.
	I'm so glad you've gotten through.

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