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July 22, 1999 - Art Bell
01:47:10
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Nick Pope - UK UFO Reports
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Time Text
You should hear it.
Incidentally, you're about to hear a government... This is really something else.
Now, would anybody in our government do this?
No way.
But the gentleman you're about to hear, Nick Pope, from Great Britain, has worked for the Ministry of Defense since 1985.
And he's going to come on the air with us.
And he's going to talk about UFOs.
He's going to talk about Open Skies, Closed Mines, and the Uninvited.
Actually, the author of his book.
But for somebody to be able to come on from the government, particularly in Great Britain, is shocking to me.
And I'll tell you more about him in a moment.
With the Kennedy tragedy, somebody sent me this, and I thought it worth reading to you.
The sky is overcast and the visibility poor.
The reported five mile visibility looks more like two and you can't judge the height of the overcast.
Your altimeter says you are at 1,500 feet but the map tells you there's local terrain as high as 1,200 feet.
There might even be a tower nearby because you're Not sure just how far off course you might be, but you've flown into worse weather than this, so you press on.
You find yourself unconsciously easing back just a bit on the controls to clear those none-too-imaginary towers.
With no warning whatsoever, you're in the soup.
You peer so hard into the milky white mist that your eyes hurt.
You fight the feeling in your stomach you swallow only to find your mouth dry.
Now you realize you should have waited for better weather.
The appointment was important, but not that important.
Somewhere, a voice is saying, you've had it.
It's over.
Now, you have 178 seconds to live.
Your aircraft feels on an even heel, but your compass turns slowly.
You push a little rudder, add a little pressure on the original position.
This feels better, but your compass is now turning a little faster and your airspeed is increasing slightly.
So you scan your instrument panel for help.
But what you see looks somewhat unfamiliar.
You're sure... You're sure this is just a bad spot.
You'll break out in just a few minutes, but...
You don't have several minutes left.
You now have 100 seconds to live.
So you glance at your altimeter, and you're shocked to see it unwinding.
You're already down 1,200 feet.
Instinctively, you pull back on the controls, but the altimeter still unwinds.
The engine is in the red, the airspeed nearly so.
Now you have 45 seconds to live.
You're sweating and shaking.
There must be something wrong with the controls.
Pulling back only moves that airspeed indicator further into the red.
You can hear the wind tearing at the aircraft now.
You have 10 seconds to live.
Suddenly you see the ground.
The trees rush up at you.
You can see the horizon if you turn your head far enough, but It's at an unusual angle.
You're almost inverted.
You open your mouth to scream.
You have no seconds left.
The author of that, by the way, is unknown.
I imagine that caused a bead of sweat or two on the brow of some pilots out there.
So, we're about to go to Great Britain, and we're going to speak with a government employee whose name is Nick Pope.
It's an unusual opportunity.
I just got back from Taiwan and China, and this is interesting.
I was talking to him a little earlier.
This just cleared the wires.
The U.S.
7th Fleet is now monitoring the Taiwan Strait as special envoys meet in Beijing to persuade officials to avoid military means to solve the unification issue.
And for the second consecutive day, President Bill Clinton warned the mainland against using force, while At the same time, the President has stated he does support the One China Policy, so... I don't know, you better watch that area very carefully.
I smell trouble there.
Now... Nick Pope is a controversial figure, whose outspoken views on UFOs, alien abductions, have been discussed in national newspapers, led to questions being asked in Parliament, His endorsement of an extraterrestrial explanation led to conflict with others at the department.
I can imagine that.
He has worked for the Ministry of Defense since 1985, and his postings have included a tour of duty in the Joint Operations Center during the Gulf War.
He holds the rank of higher executive officer, which equates roughly to that for us of a major in the Army.
Through his work on UFOs, alien abductions and such, Nick got drawn into looking at crop circles, animal mutilations, and a range of other paranormal phenomena.
This resulted in him being likened to the character of Fox Mulder, of course, in the X-Files.
He has written a book called Open Skies, Closed Minds, which reached number three in the Sunday Times hardback nonfiction list.
And stayed, in fact, in the top ten for ten weeks.
The Uninvited, also another and a best-seller.
He has written a techno-thriller with an alien theme entitled Operation Thunderchild, which is going to be published in October of 99 by Simon & Schuster, UK.
Simon & Schuster.
He's done many, many radio and television interviews, and here from the United Kingdom, is Nick Pope.
Nick, welcome to the program.
Thanks.
Gee, where to begin?
First of all, I didn't think that any government official there or here was allowed to talk about this sort of thing.
It is very difficult for me to speak out on these sorts of issues.
What actually helped me in a kind of perverse way was the fact that after the Persian Gulf War, all the generals had written their memoirs Using official information and talking about their involvement in the war.
So, I came in after that, and I thought, well, if these generals can write about their experiences, I'm going to write about mine, because I think that the UFO and abduction research that I did at the ministry would be interesting to people, and I was right.
Interesting, to put it mildly, but... Now here, help me if I'm wrong here, but I always thought Here in America we have this all-encompassing or nearly all-encompassing First Amendment that allows people to speak out on things.
In Great Britain, the national government actually can and does at times censor information exercising what we call prior restraint here in the United States.
Not allowing certain things to be broadcast.
Can you speak on that?
Yes.
We do have a fairly draconian piece of legislation called the Official Secrets Act here, which does make this sort of thing difficult.
But there is a fundamental change and has been for several years.
There is a philosophy of open government that has been with us, say, the last four or five years.
And indeed, proposals for a historic British Freedom of Information Act have now been published, and we should have that in a year or two's time.
Things are going the right way.
Yes, you work for the Ministry of Defense, which is the same thing, really, as working for the Defense Department here in the U.S., isn't it?
That's right.
It's unimaginable to me that they would let you speak out on things like this unless, I'm going to say what the audience would say, unless you were sort of towing the line for them as it were.
Well, I'll be honest with you, what I had to do to stay the right side of the line is let the department see a copy of my manuscript before I published.
Now that's not to say that what came out the other side should be regarded as approved by the government, but it gave them the chance to take out anything that I had put in inadvertently that was, say, classified, and make one or two other changes.
But I must say that, you know, this was very minor changes.
They did not tamper with the overall Yes, and I'm quite happy.
I take it then on occasion you have had sentences or paragraphs deleted, thank you very much.
That's right, yes, and I'm quite happy. I would rather pay that price and have some
information come out than have the whole thing stopped.
Although I would say to you that right at the beginning, when I first announced my intention
to do this and first gave them the manuscript, I received a letter which said your book is
totally unacceptable to the Ministry of Defence and quite beyond any suitable
amendment. But following that there was a lot of politics, a lot of talking, a lot of arguing.
arguing and uh... life got pretty interesting for me but uh... i i just got my heels in and i said was that what
it was a new cause that opens skies closed minds and the uninvited
yes and well i i take it then that uh...
uh... open skies part was all right the uninvited was speculative and probably
the people who said your book was totally unacceptable would have been the closed minds
That's right, yes.
I mean, in the title, the Closed Minds referred to people who, even when you showed them what I consider to be really good evidence of extraterrestrial craft, things that could do things we couldn't even come close to, these people just put their head in the fans, and said it must be a weather balloon, it must be a hoax,
you know, you must have made a mistake.
Gee, that sounds just like our Air Force. Exactly like our Air Force.
Well, although the interesting thing is that in Britain, our Air Force here, the Royal Air Force,
is actually, I think, a very positive force. And many of the people that I've spoken to
in the Air Force here actually believe in UFOs, but don't really feel too comfortable
about coming out and saying so.
Now of course the main reason, and I'm sure that this is the case in the States, As much as it is here, many Air Force people have had sightings themselves, but because of fear of ridicule, because they worry that their careers might suffer, they tend not to say anything.
I had a lot of people talk to me just in the margins.
We would be going to a course or something and someone would take me aside and say, look Nick, when I was flying my jet back in 1980 whatever, I had the most amazing sighting.
Nick, what part of Great Britain are you in?
I'm in London.
You're in London.
All right.
We've got lots of time, all the time we need and all the time you can spare to do this.
I've got a million questions for you, so hang tough.
We're at the bottom of the hour already.
Nick Pope is my guest.
He actually works in the Ministry of Defense and has worked there since 1985, which is You know, like working in our Defense Department, and can you imagine a Defense Department employee coming on my program to talk about unidentified aircraft, many, many of them violating our airspace in what might be called an invasion?
Not.
Real.
Likely.
So we've got a real prize here.
I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM.
♪♪ ...is coming to us from London, England, Great Britain.
He is in the Ministry of Defense, where he's been since 1985, and he speaks out on issues that you wouldn't imagine he could speak out on there, but he does.
So, Nick, I'm going to start off with a real tough one.
Okay.
We have had a lot of reports here, Nick, of gigantic Craft.
I mean, really big craft that have been seen by commercial airliners and others traversing the Atlantic Ocean, generally from Europe, from where you are, roughly, to North America.
And we've had report after report after report of this.
I think even something that NATO reported on.
What do you know about this, if anything?
Well, I certainly have lots of cases both officially and now privately involving pilots seeing UFOs and our Civil Aviation Authority here has cases of near-misses being reported between these sorts of objects.
And I'm sure you're aware of the not-near-misses that occurred in Mexico, where actually a couple of collisions occurred to commercial aircraft.
Yes, that's right.
But again, though, I think we have chronic under-reporting of this.
But every pilot who speaks out and goes official, I think there are at least ten, and I say that with some experience, because I've sat in this job doing it, 10 who don't report at all and that worries me because irrespective
of what you believe on UFOs, there is a flight safety issue here.
And I just hope we don't have a massive tragedy to bring this home to people.
Well, one might even wonder whether we might already have had a massive tragedy.
There's an awful lot of air crashes out there that despite the best investigation of the
and your counterpart there are never really quite solved.
That's right and I guess of course there are one or two more historic UFO cases like Thomas Mantel and Frederick Valentich.
Which, you know, continue to perplex people and make people slightly anxious about what's going on in our skies.
Now, you know, it might be useful if you would relate that one to us.
It's not familiar to me.
Well, the Frederick Valentich case, a very interesting one, where a light aircraft pilot was flying across the Tasman Strait between Australia and Tasmania and he reported having seen an object, this was back in 1978 by the way, he reported that an object was kind of buzzing his plane and his last message to air traffic control, he was actually on the radio trying to get some help,
And this is a direct quote.
He said, my intentions are to go to King Island, Melbourne.
He said, that strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again.
It's hovering and it's not an aircraft.
Now, that was the last transmission.
The aircraft and the pilot were never found.
Wow.
So, you know, cases like this are not as widely known as they should be.
I mean, a lot of ufologists you know will have a passing familiarity with them but if
you go out to the public
and say what if I were to tell you that a UFO had been directly responsible for the loss of an aircraft
and death of a pilot you know the public would think you're making it up and and
yet it's not the air traffic control report is there this is
all on the record are in America Nick
and the US Air Air Force conducted its great Project Blue Book, at the end of which they said, whatever these things are, they are not a threat to national security.
As if to have the final word said on the whole thing.
Not a threat to national security.
And yet, in this country, Nick, we have reports of UFOs that have hovered above ICBM hardened installations.
We have reports of ICBM sites that have gone offline with UFOs hovering above them.
The Russians have had reports of ICBM sites beginning their own countdown.
That aired here on national television.
And I've always thought, Nick, if that is not a matter of national, in fact international, security, then what is?
Well, I totally agree with you.
I mean, I think, you know, let's not beat around the bush.
I mean, Blue Book was, you know, pretty much a whitewash.
And the American government's decision to get out of the UFO game, if they did, was pretty perverse, given that over 20% of the Blue Book cases were unexplainable.
And I'm not talking about cases where there was insufficient data.
But yeah, we have near-misses between UFOs and aircraft, some of which are military aircraft.
We here have cases involving UFOs hovering over power stations and even nuclear installations on occasion.
Yeah, I think that this is an issue of extreme defence significance, and you know that is Fundamentally, the reason why I wrote the book.
And yes, I was taking a chance in doing it, but I felt that it was just too important to sit back and do nothing when these things are going on.
Well, again, since you work for the Ministry of Defense, without giving me specifics about the things that you cannot talk about, how many cases or incidences have occurred that, percentage-wise, Nick, that you would not be able to tell me about right now?
Well, I could pretty much tell you about most of the cases, although some in fairly sanitised form.
What I can say to you is that when I was doing the UFO job for the government, I investigated about 300 cases a year, and of those cases, I reckon about 10%, so maybe 30 cases a year, gave me serious cause for concern, made me think we were dealing with structured craft, Capable of speeds and maneuverabilities that we simply could not match.
When you were tasked with the job, were you given any instruction with regard to the desired outcome of your investigations to come?
I wasn't given anything specific, but I think there was a kind of culture A kind of general perception that this was a subject that it didn't do to look into too closely.
It was regarded either as a nuisance or as something where once you started digging, who knows where it will end.
So I'm not telling you that I was ever warned off or discouraged or anything like that, but I think it was kind of accepted that, you know, Whoever did that job was just supposed to kind of not rock the boat.
All right.
Well, I want to just go off to the right here for a second and ask you a question that you might not be able to answer.
But you had a tour of duty in the Joint Operations Center during the Gulf War.
Yes.
And a pretty significant one.
In America, we have a great controversy raging There is indeed a similar controversy, but I'm afraid that's not something on which I can comment.
It's nothing.
ailments called the Gulf War Syndrome and I wonder if there is a similar thing
going on in Great Britain and if so what you know about it?
There is indeed a similar controversy but I'm afraid that's not that's not
something on which I can comment it's nothing I have not done any official
research or investigation into that so I'm afraid I'm gonna have to
pass up that one The perils of working for the government, I'm afraid.
No, no, no.
I understand.
And sometimes it is as important to get a no comment as it is to get one.
Now, coming back to ufology for a moment, there's more than just things in our skies.
I understand, though we're not getting any publicity about it, or very little here, with regard to this year's crop circle formation, it's quite astounding there in Great Britain, in Europe generally, and we're not hearing about it over here.
I think, particularly, I mean I can only speak for the British media, but the British media I'm totally hung up on the Doug and Dave fiasco.
Really?
And there's a perception that it's all a hoax.
Yeah, but hasn't Doug or Dave or one of them died?
Yeah, I forget which one.
I've been kind of out of the crop circle business for a while.
I mean, I've been concentrating more on abduction research of late.
But yeah, I mean, of course, it was inconceivable.
Actually impossible.
Doug and Dave and even their imitators were ever responsible for all these
these patterns but the media can sometimes be very one-dimensional on
this and just got sucked into the whole idea that because Doug and Dave
fooled a few people they must be responsible for everything which is
clearly nonsense. Actually impossible I've seen the size and complexity of
some of the crop circles and I've stood in some myself I stood in the Double Helix formation in Alton Barnes, and I stood in the famous formation at Stonehenge as well.
In fact, I was one of the first people in that while it was still very fresh, before people had started trampling it down.
And yeah, they are awesome.
Well, you know, here we have Dr. Leavengood who does Very serious research on the molecular changes that occur in quote real and quote crop circles and there are in fact actual molecular changes that would seem to be mimicked by but not quite an effect that would be produced by microwave radiation.
Is that what you generally think there?
I don't know on this.
I've heard speculation even that the government could be responsible for some of these by testing some sort of projected energy weapon.
I mean, which theory are you looking for?
You'd be a very good person to ask about that.
No, I can tell you on that that that's not the solution.
Because if the government had something like that, you can bet that the one place they wouldn't test it is in public.
The Ministry of Defense, and I'm sure in America, the Defense Department, has acres of its own land.
You know, we would do this sort of stuff behind closed doors.
So, I think, as far as I'm concerned, I can eliminate that theory.
So, we do not have projected energy weapons in orbit?
Is that a definitive statement on your part?
No.
My statement was that I do not believe a projected energy weapon could be tested, or would be tested rather, by making a pattern on a crop field.
I'm not saying that we don't have these things, and it's very interesting looking at some of the things going on at White Sands at the moment, that there are various Anti-ballistic missile systems, both missiles and indeed lasers, being tested.
Nick, have you ever seen the controversial footage from STS-80, the shuttle flight STS-80?
Yes, I have.
Did you notice that a moment when the shuttle camera obviously and intentionally zoomed in on a specific area and waited?
obviously waited and then something that must have been some sort of projected energy weapon or possibly a craft
at incredible speeds obviously left the earth. You saw that didn't you?
Yes I did, yes.
What do you think that was Nick?
Well, the honest answer is I don't know. I think I can tell you what it isn't.
I'm convinced that it's not ice crystals falling off the... Oh, no, no, no.
It wasn't ice crystals, no.
Nor was it a weather balloon, nor was it swamp gas.
When I saw that, actually, I can tell you that I had in my house some time ago, without naming who it is, and I can't, Somebody who worked on the initial SDI project here in America.
And I sat this person down and I let them see that portion of the SDS-80 video and this person said, Oh my God, I know what that is.
I worked on that.
And what did he say?
What did he say it was?
The person said it was a directed energy beam. Brilliant, I mean that's that's
interesting I mean of course you know we we know that there are various kinetic
energy anti-satellite laser systems being tested so so maybe that's what it is. I've
seen some people who say oh my god we've declared war on the UFOs and we
were trying to shoot a UFO down. Now I very much doubt that that's the case but
yeah I'm sure we've got all sorts of exotic hardware that we were maybe testing
ourselves. I've got a man named David Jacobs coming on the air with me next week
because I've invited him back. He wrote a book Nick called The Threat and
And the contention is that when you look at what these visitors, if we can call them that, the craft, the abductions, all the rest of it, what they have done, these are not friends of ours.
These are not beings who are well intended toward us.
I would have to agree with that.
Really?
I've specialized in abduction research in recent years and in fact I've put a lot of new cases into The Uninvited and my general perception is that yeah, these are not friendly people and the things that have been done are not good things and they are not being done with our consent There is no permission granted.
These procedures are intrusive.
And yeah, that is not a good thing.
So I agree with Dave Jacobs.
I agree with people like Bud Hopkins on this.
I'm not saying there aren't some good cases.
And I'm not saying there aren't some people who, you know, derive a positive new age benefit from this.
But fundamentally, these are not good things.
That would be my conclusion as well, or at least I'm certainly not prepared to say that they're all warm and fuzzy and we should welcome them.
I'm recalling Independence Day, the movie, and I thought the first half of that movie was very compelling because in that movie the aliens did not want to make a deal with us.
They didn't want our gold.
They didn't want our women.
They only wanted us to die.
The movie kind of went downhill from that point, I thought, with some of the Area 51 baloney.
But, you know, the first part of that, I thought, that could be quite realistic one day.
In other words, they really wouldn't want anything except for us to be off this planet entirely.
Yes, whatever they're doing, I don't think they're doing it for us.
Because if they were, they would ask, or they would tell us.
They are pursuing their own agenda, and because they do it with attempts to cover their tracks, this is a covert alien agenda.
And, you know, from someone who's looked at things from a kind of government and military point of view, when someone sneaks around and does things behind your back, covertly, that's always a bad thing.
Well, you actually, though, work for the Ministry of Defense, so...
If there was government awareness, or a deal had been made, as many people speculate, or contact already has been made, you should know about it, shouldn't you, Nick?
Well, some people have called me press officer for the cover-up here, which isn't too nice, but... No, that's not nice.
No, I... It's not true, of course, right?
It's not true, no.
You know, I've been accused of all sorts of things, because I agree it is an unlikely scenario that someone in my position would come forward with these views.
And would not know?
And would not know.
I think... Nick, Nick, Nick, we're at the top of the hour, and it's a perfect place to hang up my audience, so hold on, alright?
I'll hold.
Nick Pope, who works for the Ministry of Defense in London, we'll be right back.
Then I'm sure Nick Pope is constantly fighting the accusation that he is providing what the inside wants provided.
We'll talk a little more about that, too.
Back to Nick Pope in Great Britain.
Nick, welcome back.
Thanks.
Let's talk a little bit about abductions.
Abductions are probably the main focus of a lot of research.
Here in the U.S.
by many, many researchers who are trying to get to the bottom of what's going on.
What do you know about abductions from your side of the Atlantic, and what can you tell us?
Well, I first came across these reports, you know, when I was looking at UFOs for the government, and the abduction reports came in, too.
And at first, I'll be honest with you, I was pretty skeptical of that.
I thought I could just about I didn't comprehend that some of the UFO sightings were interesting and merited further study.
But I regarded the abductions as almost a kind of distraction.
I thought, how can we make a case?
How can we convince senior people within the government, the military, whatever, that UFOs are real, when all these other flaky reports came in?
But then I realized, then I actually started to meet some of the abductees.
And I realized, what I guess every good scientist knows, that you can't filter out data just because it's inconvenient or doesn't fit your theories or just because you think it's too wacky.
You have to go where the data takes you.
And these people started coming and saying, look, I have had these experiences.
These were often people that didn't know anything about ufology.
Their knowledge of even basic cases and theories was non-existent.
And yet, independently, from all over the country, people were coming up with some remarkably similar accounts.
And that made me think there is a real phenomenon at work here.
And one of the interesting things is that I came to regard, and I suppose this is just a quirky, amusing little soundbite, But in a way, the whole UFO question became irrelevant, because the UFO became simply a means of transport.
The real issue was, who's in the UFO?
Why are they coming here?
What are they doing?
What do they want with us?
And that's how I got into abductions.
And I shouldn't have said UFOs are irrelevant.
That's a bit flippant.
But let's just say that I have come to concentrate Much more than abduction.
And it is very sad that here in Britain, I'm not saying there aren't people that do it, but when you think of the well-known abduction researchers, Bud Hopkins, Dave Jacobs, John Mack, you know, a lot of good work is being done in America, but you don't hear that much about what's going on here.
And yet, it is going on here.
People just, I don't know, they roll their eyes and they think that this is some sort of, you know, lunatic fringe of the subject.
Well, it's not.
I've worked, I guess, I've looked at over a hundred cases myself.
Okay, well, here, let me ask you this.
As with ufology, with the sightings of UFOs, you said, I think, you would study a hundred Uh, or was it 300 cases?
300 UFO cases.
Yeah, and perhaps end up with 30 that you felt were inexplicable in some way.
Yeah.
Now, with regard to abductions, surely a number of the reports, some healthy percentage of the reports, are people who had dreams People who are mentally disturbed in some way, a bit of undigested meat at the wrong time, or you know something or another, all of that, but then there are a certain percentage of inexplicable
Uh, ones as well.
Does it break down kind of the way the UFO thing does?
I think it does.
I totally agree that, uh, many, many abduction accounts, as you say, some will be dreams, some will be hallucinations, or combinations of things like sleep paralysis and, uh, say, hypnagogic or hypnopompic imagery, uh, mass hysteria, um...
False memory syndrome, all sorts of other things.
I think it is more difficult to put a percentage on it.
I think with UFOs, because you can look at things like radar and try to validate sightings to see if there was anything solid there, to see if it behaved in a way that our own aircraft can't.
You can pin down UFO sightings to a fair degree of certainty.
With abductions, frankly, it's guesswork.
I'm extremely reluctant to put a figure on it, but I would say that maybe, I don't know, 20% of the reports that I get are really worthy of further study.
That's not to say that, you know, one in five are definitely extraterrestrial.
But yeah, there are other things.
And of course, you can never discount hoaxes.
If you take the ones that you consider as probably genuine, and you throw out all the others, and then you look at the ones that are probably genuine, What kind of conclusions do you draw from the study of those?
In other words, regarding why these are occurring, who they are, what they want, you know, all the normal questions.
Yeah.
Again, I find this incredibly difficult.
I would like to be able to say to you that I have found one neat solution, but I haven't.
I found a lot of different things going on and of course it's not inconceivable that there are
a number of different agenda being pursued in parallel. I have found cases which would validate
the research of people like Bud Hopkins and Dave Jacobs suggesting that there is some sort of
breeding campaign going on, an effort to hybridize humans with extraterrestrials. But I found other
cases which I guess stray more into the territory of people like John Mack. I have cases involving
dual human alien identity, things like that.
People who recall even past lives when they were extraterrestrials.
I have cases, again going back to perhaps Bud Hopkins and the Linda Cortile case, I have cases where it looks as if children were abducted repeatedly and put together in their early years to see how they would bond.
That's my perception.
I think extraterrestrials are interested in human relationships and human sexuality.
I have other cases, and this is a really interesting thing I think, where it looks as if the focus is on actually effecting change on humanity.
It almost looks, I have a number of cases where people come out of the experience very different to when they come into it.
They have interests in environmental issues, in various esoteric subjects, they come back Very often with enhanced psychic abilities.
Abilities to do things like ESP, to remote view, things like that.
It's almost as if the abductions are a way of changing us as a species, and that I find fascinating.
All right.
Let's talk about, for a second, the environment.
I do a lot of reporting on that, Nick.
I have a lot of scientists that come on this program and talk about the environment, and here in America, We are noting, whether it's short-term or profoundly long-term, whatever it is, the weather has changed.
It's not changing, or it is continuing to change, but it has already changed and become significantly more violent, possibly due to global warming, if you want to believe that story, possibly due to the sun, but the weather is definitely becoming more violent.
and unreliable here. I would say that's true here too. In Europe as well? Yes. Interesting.
We've got the ozone to contend with, we've got big ice fields beginning to break off
at the Antarctic, we've got all kinds of indicators of trouble in the environment with
a small species, with trouble in the ocean with the plankton, trouble in the ocean with
all kinds of things, some oceans dying, real, real serious trouble in the environment. And
a lot of people think that if there is intervention going on, it is related
to what's happening right now. Yes. I have a lot of cases Abduction cases, and I'm certainly not the only researcher who does, of abductees who are shown apocalyptic images during their experiences.
Sometimes on a screen of some sort, almost as if they're being given a formal presentation.
Other times they report images and feelings which are transmitted to them telepathically.
But this is a common theme that runs through a lot of cases I have.
And I think it could be some sort of a warning, and these people come back and they are more inclined to take an interest in these sort of environmental issues, to get involved in green politics, to lobby for changes in environmental policy.
That is, I think, a good thing.
Almost like a Christmas carol, where we get an opportunity to see Earth's possible future.
I think that's right.
I think there are a number of possible futures and I'm not a great believer that the future is set.
I think we can change it.
And again, the transformative nature of the abduction experience, now a psychologist will tell you any traumatic or sensational experience is traumatic, is transformative rather.
That's true.
But the cases I have go beyond that.
It's almost as if deliberate changes are being engineered in people.
Precisely.
I've got a fax here that I consider worthy of reading to you.
It says, both Nick Pope and a former military aide from Buckingham Palace were on a TV special that I saw recently.
Could Nick possibly clarify about a Buckingham Palace military aide who apparently had unofficial permission from Prince Philip to look into at least one UFO event concerning military craft?
Yes, I think that's a reference to Sir Peter Horsley, who was a former, extremely senior member of the Royal Air Force, who acted as a sort of equerry to Prince Philip.
And yes, that's right, he asked permission to look into the Air Force files, and according to his testimony, Prince Philip was was interested in that and gave him permission in a discreet way to look into this.
But this is not the only case of very senior establishment figures within the British military taking an interest in this.
When he was alive, Lord Dowding, who was Commander of Fighter Command during the Battle of Britain, he was a firm believer in an extraterrestrial reality and of course even Former Chief of the Defence Staff, so someone who was doing I guess the job that someone like Carolyn Powell was doing when he was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs.
Lord Hill Norton here was former Chief of the Defence Staff and former Chairman of the NATO Military Committee and he is a believer in an extraterrestrial reality.
So in Britain I think there is a healthy tradition of people within the government, within the military, within the intelligence agencies, taking a more positive view of this than many people in the public might suppose.
Now it would be amazing, I suspect, if in America a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs spoke out on the UFO issue, and yet this is happening here in Britain.
And that's a puzzle to me, Nick.
You're a puzzle to me.
The others who are speaking out in Britain are a puzzle to me, despite your movement toward a more open government.
In fact, your government has always been a little more closed than ours.
So why is it happening there and not here?
I don't know.
I think... People ask me, is there a cover-up in Britain?
And I'm convinced that there isn't.
I'm convinced that the solution to this mystery Is not going to be found in any files or whatever here in Britain and that what we're dealing with is people, senior military people, genuinely doing their best to look into what they correctly perceive is an important mystery.
I think if there are answers to this, I don't want to, you know, I'm not here to make accusations, but if there is a solution to this mystery, If there is knowledge, I don't want to say complicity, but if there's knowledge about this, it's probably on your side of the pond.
Well, you are one of our best allies and one cannot imagine...
One of?
Well, you say you're your best ally.
There's Canada up to the north and there's Great Britain.
Certainly we're all very close and I would imagine that your government at some level
might well know what my government probably knows.
And I guess I've got to ask you, Nick, even though you're in the Ministry of Defense,
and I'm sure you've been asked this, do you imagine it to be possibly true that the
There would be knowledge above your level that of everything that or at least some of what's going on that you are not privy to and you are an honest but useful spokesman for those who really don't want everything known.
It's possible.
I know that people like Stanton Friedman have said, not necessarily towards me, that ego does get in the way here, and it is very tempting to say, no, no, I would have known.
I think I would have known, but of course I can't rule out the fact that things would have been going on that I had no knowledge of.
All I can say is that, to the best of my knowledge, Those people never sought access to the one thing they would have needed, I would have thought, from me.
The raw data coming in.
The UFO sightings, the abduction reports, the crop circles, the animal mutilations.
All right.
Hold it right there.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
We'll be right back with Nick Pope.
I'm Art Bell.
Since I've got Nick Pope here from London, and since he is an official government employee, the Ministry of Defense of all things, I guess I want to ask one question, then we'll go to the phones.
Nick, here in America, a couple years ago, for some reason, the Air Force decided that it was going to have a press conference on the subject of Roswell, the famous Roswell case here in New Mexico.
Yes.
So they had it, and it was a Roswell Case Closed, that's what it was called.
And we were shown pictures of experimental aircraft and balloons and balloon trains and dummies that were dumped out of airplanes and so on and so on.
And we had a Colonel Haynes, who was the presenter for all of this, and he came out and talked about things like time compression.
You know, he talked about the fact that people, why, you know, after a certain amount of time goes by, they begin to forget what really happened and things get added to the original story and time, he said, gets compressed.
And that was his answer for what occurred at Roswell.
And I always imagined some cigar-chomping general telling this poor Colonel Haynes, now, Colonel, you're going to have to go out there and you're going to have to tell them We're going to have to talk about time compression, son.
And I can see the Colonel saying, but General, time compression, how can I possibly explain away what all these witnesses have said and what we know has been written about Roswell?
Just go out there, son.
It's going to do your career good.
Talk to them about time compression.
Well, did you see that news conference?
No, I think I read the report on it, though.
And I certainly agree that to an extent, yes, witnesses are fallible and witnesses make mistakes.
Of course.
And with the passing of time, people's memories become clouded.
I think that human nature applies to everything, not just UFOs.
But I don't think you can wave a magic wand and explain the entire Roswell incident in those terms.
And I think they did themselves a disservice by trying to bring in the kind of high altitude parachute test business with the dummies and things like that.
I thought the same thing.
In other words, it was as if they were trying to, at least the end effect of this news conference, was to fire the whole subject up, not put it away.
Well, it certainly was very embarrassing the way that people came back, I think within a matter of hours, if not hours, days, and said, hey, but those tests with the dummies didn't begin until, what was it, 52, something like that.
Quite right.
So straight away, the whole case had been undermined.
Maybe that's careless, but who knows?
I mean, I've written press briefs myself, and, you know, again, without wanting to criticize, that's not the way I would have done it if I'd have wanted to close a case.
One more thing.
Again, going back to these Kraft These very large craft, that commercial aircraft have reported to be as big as football fields, or bigger, traversing the North Atlantic at incredible speeds.
Does your government have any additional information?
I mean, I get BBC reports of pilot sightings and that kind of thing.
American pilots have seen them, and they call them fast walkers, I believe.
The amazing thing about this was that when I first became aware of these things, through the embassies, we asked the American government, well, what do you know about this?
Is this something that you're operating?
Would you know about it?
They fired back and said, no, is it one of yours?
How, Nick, how good and at what depth do you think your government and my government communicate
on this subject?
Or can you not talk about that?
I don't know on that.
My impression is that if there is contact, it's unofficial.
You know, some things are perhaps, you know, however special the relationship, are always going to be held nationally. As we like to say,
the only way to keep a secret is not to tell anybody.
All right, I would like to bring some people on and let them ask you questions if you're
Yeah, fine.
I mean, it really is rather unusual.
Do you know of any other governments that have a counterpart like yourself that is made available for interviews like the one we're doing right now?
I don't know, but I mean, of course I should say that I'm not speaking as an official spokesperson here.
I mean, my official government research is something that I did.
For much of the early 90s, but not anymore.
So this is not an official statement, but of course it's not the first time that somebody involved with government UFO research has spoken out.
But it's really got to be said, Nick, that if they didn't want you there, here right now, you wouldn't be here.
Okay, but I mean people in America, for example, people like Ruppelt spoke out, and you know, he'd been involved and headed up Blue Book.
For a couple of years.
It's true, but generally here in America, the speaking up occurs after the retirement.
Yeah.
Okay, that's a fair point.
Colonel Corso, for example.
Yeah.
So many others after retirement.
Never while they're currently in active service.
That's very unusual.
All right, well, let's go to the phones and see what we've got here.
On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Nick Pope in London.
Hello.
Hi, Eric.
This is Andy from Largo, Florida.
Yes, sir.
Question, doctor.
In your opinion, does extraterrestrial engineering play any kind of influence in our propulsion systems?
And if so, like watching the space shuttle tonight go up, we're still using fuel and rivets and stuff like that.
Well, you hear stories about these spacecraft being like as if they're one mold, no riveting whatsoever.
So that obviously has to play a part of it.
But when, in your opinion, will we see Anti-gravity systems where we won't need to burn fuel.
All right.
You know, really, it's quite a good question, Nick.
In other words, do you believe that your government or my government, our government here, are in possession of any craft that they are back engineering and that there are propulsion systems out there now that we're using of the sort he described?
Again, the truthful answer, because I have no direct knowledge, is I don't know.
I have to say there are some cases which suggest that that might be so.
Certainly, if you look, I guess, back to the Cash Landrum incident in 1980, it appeared that a craft of some sort was being escorted by a number of military helicopters.
I have a case involving a A UFO sighting in February 1993 from Los Angeles actually.
An abductee I'm working with now saw a UFO in broad daylight in Brentwood which looked as if it was being escorted or chased, we don't know which, by five unmarked helicopters.
If we do have technology It is extraordinarily difficult to back-engineer it.
So I can quite understand that if we did have it, we still don't have that technology.
Let me give you an analogy.
If a stealth fighter had crashed, say, during one of the... I mean, somehow or the other, going back through time, and crashed, you know, on the field of one of the Civil War battles in America, the finest scientific minds in the country We'd probably not have been able to put it back together again or build one.
That's even figuring they knew what it was.
So it is extraordinarily difficult, even with something simple, to back engineer.
You can't just wave a magic wand and say, ah, that's how it's done.
It doesn't work like that.
So who knows?
But it's interesting, one little snippet of information, I saw that the other day, NASA, a few months back I think, NASA actually placed a research contract for an anti-gravity study.
Now, that didn't come from a UFO magazine.
That was in, I think, the scientific journals.
Either New Scientist or Scientific American.
For a UFO study?
Well, not for a UFO study.
I'm sorry, anti-gravity.
Anti-gravity, yes.
Which is kind of like a UFO.
Listen, Nick, do you know where I live?
No.
No?
I live in Nevada.
I live about 65 miles west of Las Vegas, and just over the mountain range from me is Area 51 and Area S4, where on nearly any given night, you can go up there if you wish, and you can watch things that seem to defy gravity flitting about in the sky in ways that normal aircraft don't.
It was some years ago, Nick, and this is an absolutely true story.
My wife and I were on the way home from Las Vegas to here in Pahrump.
About a quarter mile from home, maybe a little more, my wife, who was in the passenger seat, said, what the hell is that?
And she noticed something coming up from behind.
I pulled the car over to the side of the road.
We both got out.
She came around to the driver's side, and we both watched this triangular object that
I would estimate to be 150 feet from one point of the triangle to the other, only about 150
feet above me, Nick.
And I was in the U.S. Air Force.
I know what aerodynamic flight requires.
This thing was moving at about 30 miles an hour, if that fast.
Obviously nothing that would be... You could hear crickets at a quarter of a mile away here at night in the desert.
It passed directly over our head, Nick.
The stars went away.
The moon went away.
It passed.
You could see the solid bottom side of the craft.
We watched it float out across the valley toward Area 51 for, I don't know, four or five minutes with our mouths open and It was that close.
I mean, it's like I could have taken a rock and thrown it at the damn thing if I wasn't in shock, and I was in shock.
So, if that's not anti-gravity, then I don't know what it is.
Sure.
The question, I suppose, is do we have that technology, or was that being piloted by extraterrestrials?
That is the question, yes, indeed.
Yeah, and I kind of tend to think that we don't have that technology.
But as I say, you know, I simply don't know.
But I have a similar case to that, actually.
And again, some people think, why is it that all these really good sightings happen in America?
I have a case not too dissimilar to that involving a huge triangular-shaped craft.
The only weird thing about this, all the witnesses who spoke to me about it, most of them were military, and this flew over an Air Force base.
In fact, two Air Force bases in England.
And which bases would those be?
RAF Cosford and RAF Shawbury.
It's one of the cases in Open Skies, Closed Mines, but the witness saw it fire a beam of light down at the fields just beyond the perimeter fence of the base.
He said it moved over, he said it was about the size, he said it was midway between a C-130 Hercules and a Boeing 747.
So big!
About 150, 100 feet above the ground, traveling very, very slowly with a low frequency humming sound coming out.
And then he said the light retracted back into the craft and the thing moved off from having gone at 20 or 30 miles an hour.
He said in an instant it was off to the horizon.
And this guy was an Air Force, serving Air Force officer, giving me this report.
So he could estimate speeds and heights pretty well.
Well, again, Nick, my government's official position is that whatever these things are, they are not a threat to national security.
What is your government's official position?
Well, the question about this incident, after I wrote it in the book, there was a question in our parliament here about that.
And the official response was Um, that the government keeps an open mind on these sorts of incidents, uh, but does not believe it to be proof of extraterrestrials.
Well, you know, you can argue yourself round in circles on this.
Yeah, until you actually get one of these things, of course you can't say for sure, but hey, what I say is when it does things that we can't do, and it didn't show up on radar, and we didn't even manage
to get any of our jets in the air, we'd better be worried about this.
Well, for example, here in the U.S., a number of years ago, in Michigan,
we had a particularly striking set of sightings over Lake Michigan, moving toward Chicago,
and I have a tape of the radar operator and of the 911 dispatcher,
and all these calls coming in, and then the weather radar guy saying,
oh my God, now there's two, now there's three, now they're moving together,
they're going at an impossible speed, all of this stuff from the radar fellow
that was on the line to the 911 operator, these are very solid reports,
and I find it beyond reason.
To believe that our government would not regard an invasion of its airspace, something we zealously protect here and I'm sure there as well, not to be a matter of national security.
I agree.
I mean, there was a wave of UFO sightings in New Hampshire in 93.
and uh... the local paper ran a front page story and in huge letters it said
if you see a ufo over the piscatocca river do not call nine one one it is not
an emergency and they were getting so many calls that the system was
getting overloaded but i agree
these things are of extreme defense significance
There are serious defence and national security issues at stake here.
Until we know what they are.
So then you must understand why so many people are sceptical in my country and yours, at least my country, when our government says they are not a matter of national security.
I think the truth of the matter is that if there isn't a cover-up, and I know a lot of people will disagree with that, but if there isn't, The simple truth is that the government doesn't know and cannot control this.
And that's one thing governments can't stand, not being in control.
I was just about to say that.
That's the only other reasonable explanation.
That is that since they cannot control it and cannot tell us what it is, they don't want to scare us by telling us that, so they say it's nothing.
I would tend to agree with that more than I would support a cover-up.
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Nick Pope.
Hi.
Good morning, Art.
This is Barry, and I am calling from Columbia, WVOC 56.
Is that a radio station?
Yes, sir.
And I was wondering if Mr. Pope would comment about a book that I have heard, not only have I heard about, but I also have a copy of it, by an Englishman named Leslie Watkins.
The book is called Alternative 3.
Now, Art, I know that I've sent you some information because I think I shared a letter that Mr. Watkins wrote to me when he answered my letter that I wrote to him.
And I was just wondering what he would know about Alternative 3, and the stuff that was written in this book, it seems so far out, and so out in left field, but as time has progressed on and on, it seems like I see stuff materializing from this book, like the possibility of the ozone layer, the astronauts were mentioned about What they did or didn't see on the moon.
All right, we're kind of pressed for time this hour.
So, Nick, any knowledge about Alternative 3?
Yeah, I mean, my perception, and I'm sorry to kind of say this, is that it was probably a hoax.
But if you want to talk to someone here who knows a bit more about that, you'd have to ask someone like Georgina Bruni onto the show.
She's actually someone who's putting together a book on the Bentwaters incident at the moment.
That's going to be out next year, but Alternative 3 is something she's looked into.
So I might have to pass the buck there.
Sorry.
I don't know enough about it to really comment.
Are you good for one more hour?
Yeah, one more hour I can do.
All right, excellent.
Because I do want to ask you about Bentwaters, of course.
We couldn't finish the program without doing that, and a lot of people want to talk to you, so excellent.
Stay right there.
My guest is a Ministry of Defense employee.
Has been so since 1985.
Specifically studying the kinds of things that we talk about in Great Britain.
And it's kind of a little shameful.
To me it's shameful that I've got to call London to get a government employee who will talk about this when I can't call anybody here.
We'll be right back.
Yes, I am.
OK.
Listen, your book, by the way, is it available still?
Yes.
Both Open Skies, Closed Minds and The Uninvited are published in America by the Overlook Press.
And The Uninvited has just come out in a mass market paperback through Dell Publishing.
So you should be able to get them in the States.
Most bookstores, or if they don't have them in the bookstores, they can order them.
Yeah.
Okay, very good.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Nick Pope.
Hello there.
Hi, I'm calling from Cincinnati, Ohio, east of the Rockies.
I listened to you on 610 out of Columbus, Ohio.
Yes, sir.
And yes, for Mr. Pope, I had heard you saying a little bit ago that you had said that you had felt that these Uh, aircrafts were possibly, uh, threats to national security, to where as Art said that the U.S.
government's stance on it was, um, that they were not threats to national security.
My question for you is, um, I mean, just looking at, you know, looking at this whole thing and seeing that these beings, quote-unquote beings, if, uh, if they're this much advanced, if they're this much more advanced than we are, and I'll go so far as to presume that their weaponry is too, that don't you think that if they wanted to take us, they would have already done it?
I think that's right.
That's assuming, though, that they're here for a straight kind of Independence Day scenario, you know, a white power to take over, whatever.
But I often like to speculate that the real reasons, their motivation, and indeed their modus operandi, are going to be literally alien.
So there are going to be things that they do And things that they think that we simply can't understand.
And I don't think it's necessarily the case, and this is going to be a controversial idea, I don't think it's necessarily the case that they are as far ahead of us as we think.
And that means that there might be things that we could do.
Now I'm not suggesting for one moment that we get into some sort of shooting war, that would be silly, but We could make things difficult and we could let it be known that, you know, we are going to take care of our airspace, we're going to police it, and we're going to take care of our people.
And we're not going to be happy with people being taken against their will and subjected to these experiences.
We've got a proper integrated air defence network with increased radar coverage and things like that.
I think we can track these people better than you might think.
Okay, thank you very much, sir.
All right, thank you very much for the call.
Now, in America, I guess the most famous case is Roswell.
In Great Britain, I think the most famous case is Bentwaters.
Is that fair to say?
That's correct, yeah.
It is correct.
What can you tell us From your position about Bentwaters, what do you know, what investigation of Bentwaters have you done?
Have you talked to witnesses?
What have you done, Nick?
Okay, well, when I took over the job looking at these UFO sightings for the government, there was a file on the Rendlesham Forest incident.
And one of the first things I did in the job is I read this file.
And at the end of it, I just thought, my gosh, What the hell happened there?
It seemed to me that we had handed to us on a plate, you know, pretty much as much proof and convincing evidence as you could want.
And yet, we seem to let this opportunity, for some reason, slip through our fingers.
On the face of it, we have an incident in December 1980 where a whole string of United
States Air Force personnel witnessed not just lights in the sky, but also at one stage a
metallic craft.
On the ground?
Yeah, on the ground.
In the woods?
And you know, the great thing about this is that it left traces.
And always, when I was researching my own cases, I would love it where we could get
this kind of secondary evidence, where you could get burn marks, tree damage, that sort
of thing.
And this object, and we know it was an object, had a definite effect on the environment.
There was tree damage right where the guard patrol said that the craft had been.
There were indentations right on the forest floor where this thing had been seen to land.
And, best of all, they took radiation readings.
Now, I reopened the investigation into this case.
Of course, it was difficult because it was many years later.
But one thing I did is I took those radiation readings And I gave them to the Defence Radiological Protection Service, an official government organisation in Britain, and I said, just tell me, I said, is this normal or not?
I mean, no-one had looked into these readings, no-one had compared them to what the levels should have been.
I found that incredible.
The answer came back, whatever it was, was ten times background radiation.
So, again, scientific, empirical evidence that there was a structured craft there that it left an effect on the environment.
Now, I've spoken to people like Larry Warren and Peter Robbins, of course, and I've spoken also at length to Charles Holt.
I'm convinced that these people are being truthful.
I think in cases they have, you know, They've got different bits of the same story, so I don't necessarily read too much into the fact that some of the accounts differ.
That's what you find in real incidents.
Where I get suspicious is where everyone says exactly the same.
And I just think it is without question the best case in the country.
Now, I'm a great fan of Peter and Larry's book, Left at Easter Gate, which I think is excellent.
Yes.
A British researcher called Georgina Bruni is just putting the finishing touches to what I think will be the definitive book on the Bentwaters incident.
And her book will be published, I think, next year, pretty much late next year, on the 20th anniversary of the incident.
I know that she's tracked down many, many new witnesses, that she's got a number of senior people in the defence and political world to speak out and say what they think and what they know about this case.
So this case is going to run and run.
And I think on the 20th anniversary, with Georgina's book, we're going to see some real resurgence of interest.
In a way, I think this case is better than Roswell.
Because, again, Kennel Haynes was right.
Time compression does exist.
It is difficult with a case 50 years old where most of the witnesses are dead.
But Bentwaters, you know, pretty much everyone is still here.
That's true.
That's true.
I think it represents, possibly, our best opportunity to crack this open.
Okay, let's for one second, before we go back to the phones, let me ask you, in America we have We have something called the Brookings Institution, and they did a study on the probable consequences of contact, should it occur, and how the American people would react.
And it wasn't really good news.
In other words, it concluded the American people would not react well, that a lot of what they believed in would be challenged, And that there would be general chaos if contact actually were to occur.
And I suppose the recommendation was that, if possible, the American people would not be told, or should not be told.
Have there been any similar studies in Great Britain on this subject?
There have been, but not, I mean, not official studies.
There have been some privately sponsored opinion polls, which tend to suggest, as I think is the case in the States, that belief in an extraterrestrial reality is running pretty high, sometimes over 50%, I think, consistently.
Oh yes.
Over 50%.
I'm not so sure And it's just a gut feeling that there would be panic in the streets, etc, etc.
I think, in a way, the question is so open-ended because it depends on the circumstance of the contact.
One issue that, to me, seems to have been sidestepped, and this is to me, from my official background, much more important, is the potential biological hazard from contact.
Of course.
You think about the decimation of various indigenous peoples around the world when they've come into contact with travelers.
All we need is the Pleiadian flu.
But yeah, I mean, I think this is an issue which needs to be gripped.
You know, we've seen terrible deaths here on Earth.
Imagine the potential of two entirely different species from two entirely different ecosystems Coming into contact.
Now that happens already during the abductions, but that's during a, you know, that's a carefully controlled environment.
One has to imagine that might be why there has not been contact yet.
That is a possible inhibitor to that, yes.
So it makes the idea of UFO crashes even more disturbing.
And perhaps the potential biohazard Is one possible reason, and this is only my personal speculation, but why governments, if there had been a crash somewhere, would rush to secure the crash site and immediately seal it off.
Not so much to stop the public knowing the truth, but to protect the entire world from a potential hazard which could wipe us all out.
And did a motion picture called Mars Attacks make it to Great Britain?
It did, and I confess that I haven't got around to seeing it yet, despite the fact that everyone has told me to.
Yeah, the little town that was destroyed at the beginning of that motion picture was my town.
Oh, right.
Yeah, little Pahrump, Nevada.
And I think that they took a stab of humor at me, but they destroyed the town and the people.
It was awful.
Catch it when you can.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Nick Pope.
Hi.
Oh, you're going to have to yell at us, hon.
I don't hear you too well.
I'm sorry.
Is it better?
That's a little better.
Okay.
I'm calling from Harker Heights, Texas.
Texas.
Okay.
Yeah.
I listen to you on KJFK.
Yes, ma'am.
Okay.
Now, the question I have is, with the abductions, is it a common thing for people when they've been abducted to come out of it with nosebleeds?
Yes, it is.
Really?
Yeah.
I've found that in quite a lot of cases.
Now, of course, it's difficult to say when children are involved because, of course, for all sorts of very ordinary medical reasons, children get nosebleeds all the time.
But what I found is that adults who have not had a nosebleed for years and years, in the aftermath of, say, UFO sightings or abductions, will suddenly get this.
In a way, this is very traumatic.
I mean, you know, seeing your own blood, even in a nosebleed, can be very distressing.
And I've had abductees.
I have several cases where abductees have been almost more upset by the nosebleed than the actual experience.
Now, that's very interesting, ma'am.
Why did you ask that question?
Because, well, several years ago, when my 14-year-old was about 2 years old, I had fallen asleep in my car and then woke up in my
bedroom and when I got up I had this nosebleed and then just a couple of days ago I got up and I
had another nosebleed and you know it's been years since I've had a nosebleed.
I hear you.
Just boom like that.
Well at one moment being in your car and the next being in your bed now that's very disturbing.
It's strange.
Thank you very much.
I have not heard of the nosebleed thing before, but a nosebleed might well be because of a pressure change.
It might well be, but I think the more popular theory amongst abduction researchers is that it has to do with either the insertion or removal of an implant.
Uh-huh.
Now that's something you should ask Whitley about tomorrow, because I know he knows a lot about that.
And say hi to him from me, by the way.
Yes, Whitley, as you well know, has an implant in his ear.
I had the surgeon, Nick, who tried to remove this implant on my program, and this surgeon came on and said, look, I I took the scalpel and I made a cut and I got close to the implant and the damn thing moved!
It literally moved away from the scalpel and he said, I asked Whitley should I proceed and he said yes and he went in further with his scalpel and bear in mind this is a surgeon talking to me and he said I got close to it again and it moved again and at this point I told Whitley I'm gonna quit I'm gonna sew you back up because I'm going to do you damage if we keep this up.
Yes, it's almost as if, and I've heard these accounts before, it's almost as if they are biomechanical.
But certainly, I think again, it's indicative of the covert nature of what's going on.
We are clearly not really supposed to know all about this.
So our best efforts to get proof are often thwarted by the controlling intelligence.
So this sort of thing does not surprise me.
They are covering their tracks, or they're doing their best to.
All right, Nick, hold on.
We've got one more segment to go.
Nick Pope is here, and he works for the Ministry of Defense in Great Britain.
He is in London, even though it sounds like he's right in our backyard.
A very, very good phone connection from London.
I'm Art Bell, and this, of course, is Coast to Coast AM.
Don't touch that dial.
Don't love me now.
You'll never love me again.
I can't feel you saying the words never break the jam I'm bringing.
Don't love me.
Nick Pope is here, and we'll get right back to the phone.
Just a quick little item from the New York Times.
Yesterday's edition, as a matter of fact, of the New York Times.
A dayline Washington Congress says in a new report, the Pentagon defied the law as well as the Constitution by spending, listen now, hundreds of millions of dollars on military projects that lawmakers never approved.
Including a super-secret Air Force program, the Pentagon acknowledged that some of the accusations Wednesday night were, they said, honest mistakes, which led to its failure to notify Congress about the way it was spending money.
Now, Nick, that's kind of interesting.
That's front page of New York Times, our own government admitting they've spent hundreds of millions of dollars, and they're sort of saying here that, sorry, We just... It was a mistake.
We forgot to notify you.
Hundreds of millions on secret projects.
Yeah, I... Things like that, when they happen, are very unfortunate.
But, um... I have... That, um... Bureaucracy wins over conspiracy every time.
And the truth of it is that within government, just the same as within society as a whole, in business, in family affairs, people make mistakes.
And I tend to be more charitable towards that.
Well, that's because you're in government.
You're a bureaucrat.
It's human nature.
You know, government is a complicated business, and with the best will in the world, these things happen.
But in my experience, people within the government and the military are all fundamentally honest, decent people.
That, of course, really is true.
If there is a conspiracy, it's well held.
Sorry.
I think so.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Nick Pope in London.
Hello.
Hi, I just about fell out of my chair when I heard the last call because it reflects something that I'm going through right now.
You're having a nosebleed.
I'm having more than a nosebleed.
I'm having a nose geyser.
A nose geyser, oh my.
About three months ago.
And let me preface at the outset that I have no recollection of any little green men or being swept away or anything like that.
About three months ago, I started undergoing some psychological changes, a much more relaxed view of things, much less uptight than I've been for most of my 47 years.
That corresponded with a huge divot in my left nostril, as if something that had been there for a long time had been removed.
As it happens, I went to an otolaryngologist, which is a $3 word for an out-of-your-nose-and-throat guy, on Wednesday,
and the guy examined me, seemed to be very agitated, gave me some saline solution,
told me there was basically nothing wrong with me, but couldn't explain why my nose has been bleeding profusely
all day long for three months.
My God!
Um...
And you say there's a definite divot?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, it is almost ready to break through to the other side.
I mean, I have the kind of gash in there that long-term cocaine users get, and I have never touched the stuff.
Nick?
Yeah, I think that's fascinating.
And the thing which really made me, you know, stop and think that this could be an abduction case Is that you said that you have had some psychological changes.
Let me interject here if I may.
These abduction cases tend to be where the same specimen is in effect taken several times, right?
Well, nobody knows.
I mean, there are many different things going on and not all abductees will have implants.
I had a reason for asking that question.
Over my lifetime, I've had some odd things that I couldn't explain.
Let me give you one example.
This is going back 25 years.
I used to live in Orange County in upstate New York, and for any of the listeners in New York State, they'll be familiar with the Waukill River.
On one night when I was driving home from my bus stop, I worked in New York City at the time, I was making a hairpin turn around the Waukill River on a night when it was snowing and icing.
And I was going like five miles an hour in first gear for fear of spinning.
The area where I was turning, the local government had stopped putting up the retaining wall so many times because so many cars had gone over the edge.
I'm driving a little lightweight Pinto and I'm going five miles an hour and I end up going into a spin anyway.
The car starts being a new driver at the time, not knowing any better.
I slam my brakes on.
So, of course, I begin to spin even faster.
Right.
Make a long story short, I'm spinning closer and closer and closer and closer.
I'm about to go over the edge of this stuff.
I screamed no, not in fear, but in anger.
Then all of a sudden, it's as if, you know, a movie had stopped shooting and then the next scene was shot three months later and was cut together.
All of a sudden, the car was at a dead stop.
I was so close to the edge that I couldn't get out of the car on that side.
I climbed over the stick shift in the middle, got out the other side to see what had stopped me, and there was nothing.
The thing is, you talk about, in all these abduction things, a sense of missing time.
I had a huge sense of missing time.
Not minutes, not hours.
It seemed, it felt to me, as if months were missing.
And yet, from that point on, I drove home and there was no missing time at all.
Well, you know what, Jared?
Based on what you've told me, I would say that you should get yourself to somebody like John Mack as quickly as you can.
That's really what I would recommend.
If you really want to know what happened to you, go to somebody who's really good in this field.
John Mack is really good.
Or somebody... How do I go about reaching him?
He's at Harvard.
At his level.
Somebody at his level.
Tell him what you have told us just now.
And begin to find out what happened to you.
What do you think?
What do I think happened?
No, I understand that.
No, I was asking Nick what his advice would be.
I think this could well be an abduction.
When you have two things happen together, when you have three things, when you have perception of missing time, when you have an unexplained incident like that, when you have the nosebleeds, and when you have the transformation in your life, in your outlook.
all these things individually you know you can make excuses for but when all
these things happen together I think it could well be a sign of an abduction and I agree
it's worth seeking out someone like John Mack, Bud Hopkins, Dave
Jacobs you know to look into this. I'm going to have a David
Jacobs on next week caller
all right yep okay so stay in contact I'm glad the last two callers were on.
I'd like to relate a story that happened to me.
I am Scott, just outside of Gainesville, Florida.
I am glad the last two callers were on.
I would like to relate a story that happened to me.
I am a former police officer from a major Southern California city.
A routine night, I was working a third shift, and I got a call.
It was like 1.30 in the morning, and I responded.
I used to keep a log in my unit, the time I got the call, the time I got there, and the time I left.
It was a routine call.
In fact, I never even got out of my car.
It lasted maybe a minute and a half, and I left.
and this is like 1.30 in the morning. My next recollection was about an hour and 50 minutes
later. I had driven through, out of my jurisdiction, our jurisdiction, through another city and
just inside a third city. I don't remember doing that. What I do remember is waking up.
You were alone in the patrol car?
Well, there's a catch to my story. So after that happened, it's not like anybody was out
looking for me, but I do know that four other officers did respond to four of my calls that
were on my beat.
And...
And so I drove back and basically was non-functional for like a week.
Well, you probably thought you were in big trouble.
Well fortunately it only went to a certain level.
It never left our squad.
I think it went to my sergeant.
I'm sure it went to the lieutenant too.
But it just went to a certain level.
Did you write it up?
As best I could at the time, but as time went on I remembered More details of what happened and that was like right after I left that original call.
What did you begin to remember?
What I remember is leaving the call and I remember there's a hill.
I drove up the hill and made a right hand turn and I remember what sounded like driving through broken glass or either that or somebody taking their hands and crushing the back of my windshield in the unit.
Breaking glass.
Right.
and driving into a black hole.
And the next thing I remember is waking up, it was about, I think it was 22 miles away.
Holy smokes.
Yeah, this is quite typical.
And the feeling of disorientation as well is something that I've come across before.
I have a case here in England involving missing time of about three and a half hours
where somebody, two people in a car this time, which is quite unusual for these experiences,
found themselves, one moment they were driving along the freeway, the next moment
they were in a city center.
These things happen, and the more people come forward and speak out, particularly, you know, people who have had responsible positions in the community, Um, you know, the quicker I think the public at large will see that we are dealing with a real phenomenon.
Are you tempted, sir, to seek somebody, as we've been talking to the other callers, like John Mack or Bud Hopkins or somebody or another, to try and get to the bottom of what, you know, fill in the empty spots?
Yes, Lord, I am.
Especially as time goes on.
You know, and I have Talk to other people about it, not publicly, but I have talked to other people about it.
But let me go back to the catch of my story.
Sure.
I had a partner.
You had a partner?
Yes, I was not alone.
You had a partner in the vehicle?
In the vehicle.
And, proceed please.
Okay, like I said, when I woke up, I was in another neighborhood which I did not recognize right away.
Right.
And when I woke up, I picked my head up.
My unit was in drive and the engine was running.
And the first thing I did as I cleared the fog, I looked to my right and I looked at my partner.
And I stared at him for five seconds and he picked his head up.
So he was gone too?
Yes.
But neither one of us said anything to each other.
In fact, he wasn't my partner.
He was in training, a new guy, and I didn't know who he was.
I knew of him, but I didn't really know who he was.
And that's the only night we worked together.
And we didn't say anything, and I think I understand why.
Because I felt stupid.
Because I was totally confused.
I felt stupid and I believe that he felt like he fell asleep and didn't know what was going on.
Do you know where this man is now?
Yeah, he's probably, he's still there.
He's still there.
Yeah.
I think I would be tempted to try and contact him and have a discussion about the experience now.
Yeah, I wish I did at the time, but we're busy.
I lost track of him even that week and I don't know where he went or who he was working with.
Well, that's a remarkable story.
So I would seek some help.
I would try and get in touch with your partner.
I don't know what else to tell you except that is just an astounding story.
It's a great story and I think that's very good advice.
Nick, do you have any idea, you mentioned that they seem to be interested in our sexual
nature, our reproduction.
Others have said in our genetic structure, there's a group of people who believe that the greys, or whoever they are, have a weakened genetic structure and they're trying to strengthen their genetic structure by mixing it with ours.
Do you have any beliefs in this area about what's going on?
I think that all these things could be going on in parallel.
I think it very unlikely that simply one facet of human behavior is going to be of interest to these people.
So I would not rule out a scenario where they are interested in all these things.
And also, and this is something I keep coming back to because it crops up in my caseload, they are very, very interested in human relationships.
How we bond with people, how a mother bonds with a child, how we form friendships, how we form sexual relationships.
These are focuses of their interest.
It is very, very, very interesting that you should say that because I had a man on the air who does remote viewing not long ago named Ed Dames.
Oh yeah.
You know Ed? I've not met him, but I know his work.
What he said was that he has determined that it would be possible for a very serious research
group, NIDS, here in the U.S., sponsored by Bob Bigelow, who I'm going to have on the
air next week for the first time ever on radio.
Excellent.
Yes, I'm very familiar with NIDS, and I've spoken to Bob Bigelow and Tom Kelleher.
Indeed.
Yes, and I had Mr. Kelleher on a couple of weeks ago.
He spoke about a ranch they have at an undisclosed location, we don't want to give it out, where some very unusual things occurred.
And Ed Dames felt that one way to attract, or the way he put it, to set bait would be to put a mother and an infant Um, at a specific location on this ranch, and that there was something about the bonding, Ed Dame said, between the mother and an infant that would attract them.
I think that's right.
Now, NIDS are doing some excellent work, and in many ways, I think, are putting money into something which a lot of people think the government should be doing.
However, I think we have to be very careful with the moral implications of using that.
Now, I'm sure NIDS will, if they do do that ever, they will do it responsibly.
But I think we need to be very careful about offering people as bait.
Well, as a matter of fact, on behalf of NIDS, Colonel John Alexander called in during that program and said, you know, there was actually a mother and an infant on the ranch, and they were removed because of perceived danger to them.
That's excellent.
I'm so glad to hear that, and that allies with everything I know about NIDS and how responsibly they handle that.
Absolutely.
That's good.
Absolutely.
We need to establish open two-way conversation With the extraterrestrials.
That's what we should really be aiming to do.
But you agree then, that human relationships, the bonding, is something they're apparently very interested in.
They're very interested in it, and one reason may be because they can't do it themselves, or they're not good at it, or they've lost the ability to do it.
It may be our very humanity, what makes us individual, which is the most precious thing in the universe.
Maybe far more so than we know, because of course to us it is a natural thing.
Fascinating, fascinating.
East of the Rockies, without a lot of time, you're on the air with Nick Pope in London.
Hello.
Oh, hello there.
This is Gary down in Hopetown, Florida.
Hi, Gary.
Hi.
Yeah, my question is, I had missed, I had a missing time thing in the early 70s when I went hunting one day.
I lost a full day.
But my question is, I've noticed, looking back since then, It seems like I have a harder time, I seem to be more of a night owl since then.
I used to sleep very regular hours and my tendency is to nap more during the day and sleep less at night.
And I wondered if that has followed through, that's one question, followed through with many of the people that have.
Yes, a lot of people are perhaps subconsciously, if they can't remember the details of what happened, nervous that it may happen again.
So that's one explanation.
My other question is, since you are on the inside of government, it seems like the media pretty much controls the public's perception of everything, and media, I think on either side of the pond, is Pretty cold when it comes to these topics.
They're very skeptical.
Whenever they want to talk about anything in this genre, the first thing they want to do is bring in somebody to debunk it all.
That's right.
And they call it in the interest of fairness.
And what do you perceive as being a way that this can finally start moving forward past Debunking scenario.
What can the public do to start?
Alright, we're so short on time that it is a very good question.
Nick, a response?
There are some good people coming through in the junior and middle ranks of the media who are more sympathetic than the current top dogs.
But also, I think the public should just keep pushing away.
Lobby your representatives if you feel strongly about this.
Build up ahead of steam.
Nick, I've got a question for you.
Would a radio program like mine And I'm on nearly 500 radio stations.
Would it succeed in Great Britain?
Oh, absolutely.
Every time there's a TV or radio discussion program here in Britain, the phone lines are jammed.
There is massive interest in this.
All right.
I'm glad to hear that, Nick.
Boy, what an extraordinary visit this has been.
I really want to thank you for coming on the air, but we are Absolutely out of time, so I'm going to have you back sometime if you're willing.
Absolutely, great.
I'd love that.
All right, my friend.
Thank you so very much, and good morning to you there.
Thank you.
Take care.
That's Nick Pope.
I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM Straight Ahead Open Lines.
I'm Art Bell and this is Coast to Coast AM Straight Ahead Open Lines.
I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I have found
I have little to care For what's not here
To reach Art Bell on the toll free international line, call your AT&T operator and have them dial 888-919-7233.
That's 800-893-0903.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
Good morning, everybody.
This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the Premier Radio Networks.
Good morning everybody. Open lines, straight ahead.
Whatever you want to talk about is fair game.
It may still last time, but it's still goodbye Every time my name is found and I won't cry
The bones in the ceiling still keeps keep coming So when it may be the easy time to be alone
Sometimes if you get the chance, sit down and listen to the words of this whole song
But I still want to see who was doing all right There's nothing left to do tonight
It's so great to be alone Let me do a little promo coming up on Dreamland this Sunday
Sunday.
Hilly Rose is going to have the publisher of Magical Blend Magazine, who has compiled predictions for the new millennium from many very well-known personalities in the New Age metaphysical world.
So, uh, note that.
Coast to coast, Monday night, again with Hilly.
william jay also who is an attorney an expert in presidential abuses of
power the uh... the executive order
so that's what's directly ahead next week on the uh... twenty seventh i'm going to have
robert bigelow uh... in his first national radio interview ever
and that's something you're not going to want to miss the funds needs and a lot of other very special research and he
has an announcement that
i think it's going to i think it's the right word would be electrified
you know i want to start a lot more We're going to have Seth Shostak from SETI.
He'll be here next week as well.
And let me see.
What else have I for you?
I know there's one other thing that I'm missing, not thinking about.
Yes, of course.
Dr. David Jacobs, who wrote The Threat, will be here Thursday night to Friday morning next week.
We touched on Dr. Jacobs' work briefly during the program tonight.
Now, let me hit you with a couple of things that are in the news here that are kind of interesting.
Of course, the news is being dominated nationally by the JFK tragedy and In fact, there are a lot of questions about the amount of news on this story.
So I will not add to it.
It is a tragedy and the Kennedy family has had to bear certainly more than their fair share of them.
From Baltimore, the Associated Press, a teenager who had half of her brain removed to stem the spread of deadly neurological disease was released today from Johns Hopkins Children's Center.
I said released.
Amber Ramirez was transferred to Mount Washington Pediatrics Hospital where she's going to begin physical and speech therapy to recover all the functions she lost when surgeons removed the left half of her brain.
It shows you how little we know about our own brains That literally half your brain, tempting to make a Rush Limbaugh remark here, but I won't, half your brain gone, you could still as a human being function and lead a useful life.
That's forcing their husbands, many for the first time in their lives, to actually cook meals, do laundry, and wash dishes.
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