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March 16, 1999 - Art Bell
35:50
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard Hoagland Heart Attack Interview
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Time Text
Well, here's something I thought I might never have the opportunity to say again.
A one-time advisor to Walter C. Cronkite.
A one-time advisor to NASA.
A very good friend of mine.
And somebody who is with us again.
Richard C., not quite as dapper as he was, Hoagland.
Hey, Richard.
Hi there.
God, it's good to hear your voice.
Well, a funny thing happened to me on the way to the Miami Circle the other night.
Well, let's, um, gee, where to begin?
Yeah, I guess, I guess really, I guess that is exactly, you know, we were pretty caught up, I think, we were caught up with what was going on with the circle up until the moment that it happened.
So that's where we all Sort of lost it.
In other words, the veil of silence descended.
I got these panicked calls.
Richard had a major heart attack.
Oh, it was major.
I know.
How did this come on you?
What happened?
Saturday morning, and I can time it because I know how to watch and clock for stuff because we were on such a schedule that I had to be awakened and when you're in a hotel they leave messages so we know down to the minute.
I had a remarkable dream.
You know how you have these big metaphysical type dreams where there's big stuff being discussed and you're involved in something really, really big?
Sure.
I was having one of those and it had to do with fear.
It was remarkable because that's one of the things that I have fought against a lot over much of my professional career.
kind of things I got involved in that we discuss on the show.
And in the middle of this kind of exploration of how fear is used as a weapon, as a tool,
as an agent of suppression, I became aware in this dream that I really didn't feel very well.
I was told on the phone, Richard, that you had what was called a precognitive dream.
There is a technology, there's a whole dialogue that I've gotten into in the last day or so, that I was unaware that kind of precursors these, that it is a tip off as to what's going on.
So you slept, in other words you were asleep, you were definitely dreaming.
Absolutely asleep.
You slid from the dream state.
From this dream where I was exploring with Other figures, the concept of fear used as a control mechanism, to where I suddenly realized there was something wrong, that I really hurt.
I felt really, really, really bad.
There was a radiating sensation, pressure, the classic elephant on your chest kind of description, and I open my eyes in this darkened hotel room and I'm lying there.
And it's radiating down my arms, particularly my left arm.
And the bottoms of my thumbs, the base of the ball of my hand on both arms was very painful.
And I can hardly move.
And I realized, there's no doubt in my mind, I am having a classic coronary.
And the first thought was, shit, I've got too much left to do.
So you kind of reject these things.
You deny.
You don't want to go there.
So I got up and I took a little ginger because I thought maybe I had indigestion or something and ginger is an excellent natural way to relieve acid and stuff like that.
Sure.
And I went to the bathroom and instead of relieving anything it got worse and worse and I'm realizing now I'm in major trouble.
At that point the phone rang.
And I couldn't get to the phone in time because I couldn't move fast.
It was kind of things were slow motion.
Right.
And I realized that if I don't somehow crawl across that bed and get to that phone, they're never going to hear from me again.
Well, I didn't make it.
I got to the phone and it stopped ringing.
But I thought I knew who might have called.
So I punched in the number and I said to this person, get the paramedics.
I'm having a major heart attack.
And then I just kind of collapsed there and listened, praying to hear sirens.
And I take it that during that time you were waiting for the ambulance, that the same thing was going on, this radiating pain?
From my heart down to my extremities, particularly both arms, and it just got worse and worse and worse.
You know, you've heard the expression, rising pain?
Yes, of course.
Well, I know exactly what that term now means.
And there was no position to lie in that would make it more comfortable.
There was nothing you could think.
There was no way that you could... I did not have a flicker of an out-of-body experience.
Did you remain conscious the whole time?
Totally conscious, unfortunately.
Well, then that's why.
And unfortunately, I understand that.
So, you finally did hear the sirens, no doubt.
Well, one of the things I tried to do was to look around on the counters and stuff in the room to see if I had any aspirin, because they say aspirin taken Yes, it thins your blood of course.
I did not have any, so I opened the door so that they could not even have to go through the business of keys and all that, so they could come right in.
And a very nice stranger from a couple of rooms down the corridor opened the door and said, Are you alright?
And I said, No dear, I'm having a heart attack.
I said, Get me some aspirin.
And so the house manager came momentarily and had two little packets, two little tablets in a plastic packet.
And by that time, the paramedics had arrived.
There were two sets of them, I believe, from two different jurisdictions.
And one of the funny things is, you know, you've always heard the classic case where you're under this enormous emergency and you have to fill out all the paperwork or you'll bleed on the floor.
Yes.
Well, I'm having a heart attack and this woman is standing over me asking me, Absolutely inane question.
I think it was done to focus my attention on something besides the pain.
Your social security number, your billing address please.
I was thinking to myself, lady, I'm having a heart attack.
Do something!
She obviously was, I think you're right, she probably was asking you these questions to distract you because half of the danger during a heart attack is the fact that you worsen it with your own panic.
You know, I was extremely calm.
When you explore the things that we explore, you really get to see where you are in your life.
The sadness was that I wouldn't get to finish all the things that I was doing and I wouldn't get to say goodbye to a lot of people I would like to say goodbye to.
But in terms of fear, It was more like, oh, come on, let's get on with this.
This is boring and it hurts like hell, by the way.
So, let's either live and have it over with or die and get it over with.
So, the paramedics, what?
Did they try to treat you there or just slam you on the ground?
No, no, no.
They gave me oxygen and they gave me nitroglycerin under the tongue and the pain magically lifted a fog.
Really?
Went away.
Really?
And I thought, oh, it's just angina.
Because my grandfather had severe angina and died of a coronary at 95, many, many... 95?
Well, he was 95 when he died many years ago.
Well, you always die of something.
95?
Yep.
Well, if you can do that, you're in good shape.
So I was kind of familiar, and he used to carry nitroglycerin tablets and all that.
So it worked once, and they're prepping me to take me and put me in the ambulance.
It comes back though with a vengeance.
And they tried it again and they warned me, get this, they warned me, now this may give you a severe headache.
A severe headache?
Yes, and I'm thinking, for God's sake give me the nitroglycerin, I'll take the headache.
I'll take the headache, sure.
But the second time it didn't work.
And that's when they pronounced in the ambulance that I was in the middle Of a cardiac event.
Now, they actually told you you're having your heart attack now, is what I was told.
In other words, what you had in your room was some sort of precursor or something.
The actual heart attack actually occurred in the ambulance.
Yes.
Now, whether we can parse it, that fine art, I don't know.
Because remember, the sensory equipment is very limited.
They're doing blood pressure.
They're doing pulse.
They don't have elaborate instrumentation.
They did stick electrodes on me and start doing EKG readings, but it's kind of imprecise.
One of the things that I drove myself to do was to keep asking questions and to give them a running commentary of how I felt and how this was affecting me and how that was affecting me, because I felt anything I could give them that would be a feedback would help.
I'm sure that's correct.
Plus, it also diverted my mind from this awful pain.
I do not want to have anyone ever go through that kind of pain.
I take it because you were having a heart attack they really couldn't give you any pain medicine at that juncture could they?
No, at some point they began a morphine drip but I'm not quite sure when.
It wasn't in the ambulance.
I was having what's called an acute myocardial infarction and afterwards one of my doctors tells me It looks like there may have been up to 50% damage, that is, dead cells, which of course, you know, we have to look at.
In other words, you may have damaged your heart by half?
Killed your heart by half, essentially?
Well, maybe, right?
Yep.
Given how I'm responding, given my color, and how I feel, and how I'm breathing, and how good I feel, surprisingly... And by the way, folks, Richard is out of the hospital today.
Well, actually now, I guess where you are, your time is on tomorrow, but Dave, they cut you loose about when?
I escaped at about two o'clock.
Two o'clock in the afternoon.
All right.
And I want my audience to understand, Art Bell did not drag Richard Holden on the air tonight.
You called me earlier today, and you said... I called you because I really feel that somewhere in this kind of delirium of, you know, IVs and drips and incisions and I heard rumors that you had started doing a series of shows
on my situation.
I sure did.
And I heard that you had made me experiment number seven, which I feel very honored for.
First of all, seven is so tetrahedral.
Well, it's the number of symmetry spins of the tetrahedron.
That's where it starts.
There is no question.
Seven in a row have been successful.
Now, anybody out there can say anything they want and they always do at the juncture of each one that we've done.
But the reason I wanted to do something tonight, A, because I'm kind of historically minded and I thought tonight would represent my liberation and the road back.
Of course.
It's because this audience, the people who are listening to us right now, deserve an enormous amount of credit.
It's not often that you get to participate in one of these hyper-dimensional experiments, but I can tell you categorically from being on the receiving end that the literally millions of people thinking good wishes and prayers and uplifting thoughts and white light and bubbles and however you perceive that this process works and it is a scientific process.
It does work Richard.
It's working.
I can feel it working and I'll tell you how I know because you started it Monday night which was two nights after the heart attack.
That's right.
On Tuesday I had the catheter inserted so we could kind of look at the heart and see what kind of damage.
Right.
And then on Wednesday we haven't even reached the week mark.
I had open heart surgery with the bypass.
I felt so good coming right out of that operation.
I was able to stand.
I was able to sit up.
Visitors came in that evening.
This is tomorrow night now in terms of the timing.
Well, we have the famous glowing finger picture.
And the other is that picture.
Well, Mr. Diamond took...
There is no way that I could have looked that well or felt that well, I believe, because
this is like being hit with three or four 18-wheelers simultaneously.
And the proof that there's something other going on than just modern western medicine is when you would move on to other things, when people's attention would move on to other things, I could feel the bottom of the curve.
You could feel a shift.
I could feel a shift.
And it's very, very obvious that this system, this physics we're all exploring, this technology, this hyper-dimensional consciousness aspect of the hyper-dimensional technology is real, it's demonstrable, it's palpable, and frankly, it's helping.
Richard, I wasn't... Don't let up, guys.
Please, don't let up.
It's making a very substantive difference.
I wasn't going to do any more of these, you know.
I know.
Because I had begun to... I suddenly, personally realized, oh my God, these really are working.
And I felt pretty small and insecure about orchestrating millions of people to do anything, Richard.
But, of course, you're such a good, close, personal friend.
One of the things you and I never talked about in terms of these is how you do them so they're not intrusive.
It has to do with a phenomenon called resonance, which other people would be familiar with in terms of going with the flow.
The way this works best is when there's a kind of a natural rhythm and a natural outcome, meaning this is where the flow wants to go anyway.
It just has blockages.
It has three-dimensional stops that don't let it move of its own accord to where it would like to go.
And so when you tell people, you know, we've got a guy down here who needs some help, their natural inclination, which is the right thing, at the right time, for the right cause, for the right situation, takes over and it creates a natural resonance.
I think the only way I can know... I know, I know.
The other person, the other recipient of that, Dan Brinkley, said the same thing, Dan.
And all I can say is, With regard to the use of this power, it's not my power.
It's the power of millions of people, and you can only know that it's right to do it as the situation comes up.
You can look at it and you can say, this is the right thing to do, and you know it is, without question.
Then maybe it's okay to do.
I don't know.
I'm still exploring it, but I know damn well it works, Richard.
Well, I can be a pretty good witness that it does in this case, because Everyone, doctors, nurses, whatever, were expressing surprise that I was as vigorous and feeling as well and I could feel it bottom out when everyone's thoughts moved logically to other things and other priorities and we were back on medicine and good old reconstructive techniques.
Richard, hold it right there because there's a lot more to say and we're at the bottom of the hour.
I never thought I'd really have this chance again.
And here it is, Richard C. Hoagland, out of the hospital today, and bear in mind now, he's in Miami, up and on the radio at 1.29 in the morning, in Miami.
Incredible.
Absolutely incredible.
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
Engstrom Science Award winner, consultant to The daddy, Walter Cronkite, NASA, Richard C. Hoagland, back with us.
Richard, let me give you a little of the other side of the coin.
You, of course, had a terrible heart attack.
I called the nurse, and the nurse said he has suffered a major heart attack, and that's all she would tell me.
That was at Deering or Miami Heart?
This was at Deering.
And that's all she would say, and that you were in critical condition, is what she said.
And so, in the middle of all that, elsewhere, there were relentless personal assaults going on against you.
And I mean relentless personal assaults.
And I was so angry, I just saw red with regard to the people That we're doing that.
And I said so on the air without naming who it was.
I really didn't have to.
In the community, people knew exactly who it was.
So this was like last Monday night?
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
And, you know, I read a portion of a letter on the air from a renowned, well-known scientist that you and I both personally know, who had warned you uh... first of all uh... said that uh... to proceed now let's back up i guess you came to miami in the first place not for the miami circle now but rather to consult with some people about the next route radar images that's right that's a really good that's really actually went to miami walked into of course the miami circle which uh... by the way richard uh... congratulations but in the middle of all this broke the news uh... unlike some complete idiots
who wrote the Miami Circle was relatively new was nothing but a railroad every renowned archaeologist who's been down there and now of course the carbon dating tests have said it's a minimum of eighteen to twenty two hundred years old and people are quickly suggesting maybe even a lot older the Miami, not Miami, the Florida legislature voted unanimously to appropriate fifteen million dollars to the circle so you in the middle of Well, everybody should take a bow on this one because for the first time, ordinary folks said no to development and raised profound questions that were addressed by the legislative and
And the right side has won.
We've all won.
It's done a wonderful thing for all of us.
I mean, to allow something that ancient, that potentially important to all of us to be plowed under would have been probably the travesty of the century.
Well, I probably shouldn't have said to Jonathan Ullman, who was the Sierra Club guy who told me weeks ago when I went over to visit the site where all this started that they were going to plow it under in a week.
I shouldn't have said to him, over my dead body.
I think that's where I kind of, you know, went in.
Anyway, you were in Miami to meet with people on this NextRadRadar thing, and that night, Richard, I read the letter from our mutual friend who had said he would not follow this course of investigation because, in his opinion, if he did, he'd be dead in 48 hours.
And there was a line, as you well know, further down in that which warned you personally
that you should i think the the line was pull back your horns on this one
so that you don't end up dead suddenly
or some suicide or some such and i read that on the air because it seemed rather
appropriate now there are certain people are running around saying well
richard had a coronary bypass richard uh...
uh... has only richard to blame for this because of poor whatever eating habits
no exercise, no sleep, whatever, only has Richard to blame for this and that probably
all his arteries were indeed clogged up from fat and that's why he had the heart attack.
Well, I wasn't so sure that that's why you had the heart attack and earlier tonight you
talked to me a little bit about what the doctors told you about your heart.
Why don't you tell everybody what you told me?
That was my initial assumption too.
I mean I don't want to avoid blame here and yes I don't lead the most aggressive lifestyle
in terms of rafting canoes and bungee jumping over the Orinoco River and stuff like that
but I do live at 7000 feet in New Mexico which means most of the atmosphere is below me in
terms of partial pressure of oxygen.
Sure.
And when I moved from Weehawken to Placidus a couple of years ago, one of the things that I was curious about is if I could acclimate quickly to the altitude.
And surprisingly, apart from a little sinus problem early on because of the dryness, I've had not only no problem, but I'm able to out-walk and out-run people at sea level anywhere because I spend a lot of time running up and down stairs, two flights of stairs, after three cats.
As you all know, I have cats.
And I use that as kind of a regimen of exercise.
The office was on the lower level and the living quarters were on the upper level.
I would literally have to run up and down to see people or answer phones.
I was really waiting to see whether a sedentary lifestyle at sea level in the east could be transferred to 7,000 feet in the higher desert.
There wasn't a flicker.
In all the strenuous activity here, which is at sea level in the winter in Miami, I had no pains.
I had no problems.
I slept well except for when the schedule wouldn't let me.
I had no side effects that would be any kind of precursors.
You've never had a heart attack?
I've never had angina.
I've never had heart pains.
My family doesn't have a history.
But I'm a kind of data oriented guy, so one of the things I wanted to do was to remain
conscious during the catheterization where they stuck this thing in my femoral artery
which is down below the groin and up through the middle of your thorax up into your heart
and then they inject dye.
I'm lying there kind of at an angle, 19.5, looking at these screens.
I made the last part up.
So I could see the dye tracers in my arterial blood flow and the amount of constriction
and what was very interesting was just below where three main arteries come together in
the heart.
Right where the...
The juncture point is anyway.
The point is, but people can't see it on the web so no point in describing it.
Anyway it's a critical, critical point.
It was as if you had taken a wire cutter and crimped one of my arteries.
It's like if you move that point a couple of millimeters up and to the left, it would have hit the major junction of all three And you wouldn't be toast.
I'd be toast.
I would have been a goner.
Now, during the procedure, the doctors around me are commenting on the vitality of my other arteries.
In other words, all your other arteries were fine.
Well, we have to qualify that because this is a technique that only injects dye, so you're basically looking at whether things are flowing or there's a blockage.
Yes.
The real payoff in terms of science, in terms of numerical science, came Monday morning, which is what now, two days ago, when I went upstairs at Miami Heart for a procedure to investigate why I had some weird numbness in my right leg.
And what they do is they take you and put you on a machine called a sonar scatogram or something like that.
It basically does Doppler studies of the blood flow In your veins, in your arteries, and it prints them out on a screen in multiple colors.
So the blood flow coming down the line is one color, and the blood flow going up the line is the other color, and there's numerical information as to the rate of blood flow and the elasticity of the veins and the arteries, all the kind of neat stuff that would allow a doctor to look at this and say, this man is days away from having a problem, or this man has good healthy young arteries.
They again were astounded by the vitality of my arterial system.
Absolute, documented, hard copy proof.
And they even had nurses come in and, you know, feel my pulse at the bottoms of my feet, or not the bottoms, the tops of my feet, where I have a very strong pulse and you can feel the arteries surging the way they're supposed to do.
They're young, they're supple, they're elastic, they're not loaded with crud.
And this makes what happened to me all the more anomalous.
And you know me and anomalies are.
I do.
So I'm driven inexorably that this is beginning to have a feel like something different than I would have imagined.
Right.
Then I started getting phone calls from the Native American community who are very plugged in and I met a lot of very wonderful people when I was here with Robert a few weeks ago.
People like Standing Elk from South Dakota and many, many others.
And the switchboard was inundated of hospitals, so it took them a while to sort out phone calls.
They said they had an obscene number of calls.
Well, I never, never told anybody.
No, you didn't.
The Miami Herald did.
The Miami Herald?
The Miami Herald literally printed a story listing the hospital where I was recuperating.
I'm not quite sure why anybody would do that, but that was their call.
So we had to set up a screening system so that key calls could get through.
Apparently it's a situation I've never had to face before.
But in these screen calls a few days ago, I began getting information from, you know, Native Americans that, hey, Hoagie, you've been hit.
You know, you were targeted.
Somebody don't like you.
Well, I'll tell you, I talked with our mutual friend after the occurrence of the heart attack, Richard.
Yes.
And he said, gee, dammit, I told him about that.
i warned him now again i think it's important for the audience to
understand that indeed this kind of
a blockage uh... would be if it was closed off there would be other
arteries that would contain
contain similar fat and plaque showing that it had been a buildup of years and years
something or another That led up to this, but instead it was just one part of one critical juncture point, near it, of one artery that had this problem that would have killed you.
Now, I have Dr... I've got the videos.
Yep.
I know I'm either to the up and to the left and I'd be... I talked with Dr. Day on the phone and she said, and I can only paraphrase it, I'll never get it right, she said, you know, Anybody can cause a murder, but it takes a real expert to cause a natural death.
You know, I hate to say it, Art, and I don't want to go there, but I think that we're getting so close to certain things in so many different areas, and I have not forgotten the radar, and I listened last night while they were giving me my pills in the middle of the night to your reading of the faxes from the 737 captain.
Who saw the extraordinary Aurora and felt the tingling?
Oh, more than that.
Then I got one from a pilot who has burn marks on everywhere I've heard those headsets were.
It's all part of the same puzzle.
It's part of the same technology.
And I'm not going to quit.
Now, why can I be so brazen and say that?
Because we're in the middle of the seventh Arkdale experiment.
Folks, you have the power to keep things from happening.
To make them happen in the right way.
I have no doubt the way I'm sitting here feeling, which is pretty damn good given what's happened to me in the last week, that without your thoughts and prayers and your being held in your consciousness, things would take a very different turn.
But the fact that we've gone on for years and you want to find out what's going on, you want to know the truth, you understand that I will pursue it wherever it leads, whatever rock I have to turn over, I feel confident that if enough people stay attached If they stay focused, if they stay conscious, there isn't a technology that has been designed that can do what was done remotely, because that's what this is.
This is a cowardly weapon.
This is a very sophisticated scalar technology, using the physics of your experiment on the downside, to basically try to take somebody out.
And the tip-off, which was remarkable to me, Art, was the dream.
Remember the dream I was having?
Apparently the way this works is that it invokes these hyper-dimensional processes that are our connection up the line to who we really are above three dimensions.
And it's kind of hunting around for the target, hunting around to put the crosshairs on the right place.
And that's why I was having this dream, because part of me is so ingrained with the idea that fear is the weapon here, fear is the tool to keep people subjugated.
That when it tapped into that part of my connectedness, that's the part that came through.
That's the part that I've been fighting all my life against the fear.
Richard, I have it from two separate reliable sources that you were hit.
You have it from how many?
At least two.
At least two sources yourself.
Your medical records would clearly indicate that your cardiovascular system Aside from this one thing, was young, vital, in good shape, and passing the blood just the way it was supposed to, correct?
Well, the other indication, apart from your experiment, which didn't begin until Monday night, Tuesday morning?
Yes.
Well, I'm lying there in the emergency room at Deering on Saturday afternoon, and they're IV dripping this compound called It's a major clot buster and it's supposed to break up these.
I responded very quickly and the doctors and the nursing staff were amazed that for someone who had been at death's door moments before that I was responding so quickly.
Again, it was indicative that we were dealing with an anomaly and not a general condition.
Systemic problem.
Now, your physician told you that, didn't he?
Yes, he did.
I want to be really clear for everybody out there on this.
And of course, there are the naysayers out there, Richard, saying that, again, nobody's to blame for this.
But, Richard, it was a thing that took years to develop, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Well, the fact is, it didn't take years to develop.
Your cardiovascular system, otherwise, is in proper condition with Young, elastic veins that are not otherwise clogged.
Oh, the technicians were forced to comment on the youth and elasticity and the rebound properties.
There are certain numbers that go along with these readings.
They put this transducer head on you and they move it down through the inside of the thigh and down through the bottom of the leg.
Given what I had gone through and given what they had been told, that I had had this major cardio infarction, Um, the fact that I had young arteries was kind of baffling.
Well, you know what, Richard?
I came to the same conclusion.
You can't back away from these bastards.
You can't.
And if you do, that's when I think you're going to get whooped.
See, look, they've had their worst shot.
If they do anything more overt, everybody will know, because this was a sneak attack.
This was a coward's way.
This was to try to just get the problem, namely me, Well, I've had news.
I ain't going away.
And I'm not backing off, and I'm going to keep opening doors.
And there's extraordinary positive news around the circle.
The circle, I think I can document in the next few weeks, in terms of its relationship to this grid, is going to tell us more about this very physics that we're using to do these experiments.
Alright?
That's why natives and others did ceremonies.
That's why they did spinning ceremonies in these sacred spaces.
Well, they imported stones from hundreds of miles away.
I mean, we are looking in the circle at a literal miniature version of Stonehenge.
Richard, some call it God.
Some call it our spiritual power.
Some call it magic.
Some call it a lot of things.
But one thing's for sure, it's real, whatever it is.
And I haven't put personally a name to it yet, which, you know, frustrates a lot of people.
They always wanted to say it's I feel privileged, Art, to be in the process of finding out with you, and I intend to continue to do that.
I just want to say that, you know, for folks that want to reach me, I'm going to be here for a while at Enterprise South.
We set up something called Enterprise South here in Miami.
All right, real quick.
My friend, thank you.
We'll talk to you shortly.
Take care, Art.
Get some sleep, Richard.
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