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April 4, 1997 - Art Bell

03:09:19

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Exorcism - Fr. Malachi Martin

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	♪ From the high desert in the great American Southwest,
	I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be across this great land and beyond.
	From the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains, eastward across flyover country to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, south into South America, north all the way to the pole, and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM and I'm Art Bell.
	Good morning.
	You are about to meet one of the most powerful men on the face of the earth.
	I'm certain he would not describe himself that way.
	I have done so.
	And you will be aware of that as you listen.
	He is Father Malachi Martin.
	He was in the Vatican.
	Father Martin advised two popes.
	Father Martin has done exorcisms for 30 years.
	30 years.
	And so we will talk of exorcism, we will talk of the Vatican, and the Catholic Church.
	And I think you will find it beyond riveting.
	Stay tuned.
	Coming up.
	The dark shadows of skyscrapers are falling across New York as an olderly white-haired priest leaves the reassuring comfort of his home.
	Heads through the streets toward the apartment block where the others are waiting.
	He walks quite slowly, carrying a small black case filled with the essential paraphernalia of the ritual he is about to perform.
	The room has been prepared to his precise instructions.
	Clean, sprinkled with holy water, stripped of movable objects.
	Of those now gathered inside, only the priest, his face drawn and solemn, Has any idea what to expect?
	Or rather, who to expect?
	After 30 years as an exorcist, Father Malachi Martin has learned to recognize the nature of the demons he pursues.
	They may be ingenious or stupid, coarse or charming, brazen or craven.
	Hell, it seems, is no place for stereotypes.
	I need to know who they are.
	Their names and their stories.
	Father Martin is Irish-born.
	Father Martin was in the Vatican, advised two popes, and I would like to let him tell you about himself.
	Father Martin, welcome to the program.
	It's an honor to have you.
	Good morning, Art.
	It's a pleasure to be with you.
	You know that I feel very privileged to be speaking to your audience, because it's a special audience.
	You're in Manhattan.
	You live in Manhattan.
	That's right, I do, in the middle of Upper East Side.
	Have you lived there all your life, Father?
	Yes, I have.
	I came over here in January 1965, and I've lived on the Upper East Side ever since then.
	At the present moment, it's clothed in darkness and quiet.
	It's a mild atmosphere.
	It's been a lovely spring day, really, and everything is quiet.
	No sirens.
	Everything is in peace, seemingly.
	In peace.
	Maybe those are the moments to watch out for, when everything is seemingly in peace.
	The old expression of the calm before the storm, who knows?
	Yes, and besides that, it's the general public peace.
	Very well kept, according to the police work, and very clean enough for it to be reputable as dirty, but there are rooms and holes
	and basement chapel and volatile
	dark corner of the where human agony that lived out
	well why would you choose to live in such a big
	bustling difficult city when you
	could have at any time in your adult life gone to a assault midwestern town
	uh... where things are moving a little slower It was attempted art.
	I was going to live in Cincinnati.
	I was going to live in North Carolina.
	I was going to go to San Jose, that beautiful city.
	Uh, I was going to go to Texas.
	I was planning even to migrate to someplace like Southern California.
	But every time, That there were plans even remotely forming in that regard.
	It became imperative that I stay, just for another short time.
	I'm still staying for another short time.
	My life has been governed by events and I regard events as created by God the Father.
	So, it may turn out that you will be there for forever.
	That's quite right.
	At least the physical forever.
	Father, would you move just away from your phone a little bit?
	Yes, I'm popping my peeps and peeps, probably.
	Yes, you are.
	And that's much better.
	Good.
	Do not hesitate to correct me.
	Oh, no, that's much better.
	Father, if you wouldn't mind, Describe a little bit of your history.
	Obviously, you've been doing exorcisms for 30 years.
	I know you've advised two popes, but your history in the church generally.
	Well, my history in the church generally was because I became, at 18, I entered a religious order called the Jesuits in Ireland.
	The war had just broken out.
	It was 8th of September, 1939.
	And I went through the basic training of two years.
	And believe me, it was a basic training.
	They shaved your head, and took away your nice clean clothes, and gave you old, patched, clean clothes, and took away your build cream, and your eau de cologne, and they put you to bed at about a quarter to ten, and got you up at a quarter to five, and fed you like a game cock, and you didn't study one book for two years.
	They concentrated on training your will, and analyzing it, and they cut your will down basically.
	They dissected it into a component part, and examined it, and found out if they could live with it, and could you conform to the rules, and they sort of fused those parts together with an ideology, and then shot you out like a missile to study, and to labor, and to work.
	Father, that's very interesting.
	What you have just described, I'm sure, was even tougher than certainly what I went through.
	I was in the Air Force, and I went through basic training at Lackland.
	And their job was to almost try and break you.
	Maybe that's the wrong way to put it.
	In other words, they would instill in you discipline, and if you could not conform, you were out of there.
	You had to go.
	I know.
	It's the same thing basically in basic training.
	For instance, the first job I had, it was always physical labor with an amount of spiritual reading and contemplation.
	The first physical job I had, I was cleaning 300 glasses.
	Tumblers, you know, for drinking water.
	Sure.
	And have you ever tried to clean 300 glasses by hand?
	No dishwasher.
	This is all done by hand.
	And in the middle of that labor, a lot of labor, a young novice, like me, but a second year man, came in and said, Brother Martin, your niece is outside in the garden.
	So, dutifully, I went outside in the garden, and I was given a hoe.
	And the pods were grown with moss.
	And I was ordered to clean the glass.
	And in the middle of that, Brother Walsh, the master of works, at the other moment, came and said, Brother Martin, what are you doing here?
	I said, I'm hoeing the moss.
	He said, didn't I tell you to clean the glass this morning?
	Of course, my first reaction was, yes, but... Yes, but?
	I thought it was a mistake.
	Yes.
	Because they wanted to get you to the point that if they said, jump out that window, you didn't say how high it was, you jumped.
	You just jumped.
	And was it a form of breaking?
	It was a form of getting you to abdicate your own will once you accept the conditions and do as you were told.
	Or even mind control.
	It's a strong phrase, but that's really what it is.
	Yes, it is.
	And it was really, they were training your will.
	Because the mind, they left the mind almost go foul.
	You never studied for two years.
	Having studied intensively, I was 18 to get all my exams and matriculation.
	And studying Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin, and Geography, and Math, and Physics, and Logic, and History, and Geography, the whole gamut of things we used to learn in school those days.
	They let everything go fallow.
	You read spiritual books, yes, but no, you learned nothing intellectual.
	So they let the mind go fallow?
	Yes, but the mind was working all the time.
	The mind was working all the time.
	You were appraising, and appreciating, and accepting the ideology, the outlook.
	And the result was, when after two years they gave you your first vows, poverty, celibacy, and obedience, you were rearing to go.
	Rearing to go.
	I remember the first night, the night before we took those final, those first vows, I couldn't sleep with excitement.
	I heard the clock in the hall, downstairs, tolling a quarter of an hour, then a half hour, then an hour.
	Any doubts?
	None.
	None?
	Never.
	Never.
	Not a doubt.
	A great joy, a great enthusiasm, a great happiness, and a great satisfaction.
	Let me get at it.
	Let me do my work.
	Let me go.
	Let me work.
	So by that time, you knew that you could devote your entire life as you were about to vow to do.
	That's right.
	They bred into you something else, which only started then, and it took years to achieve.
	We used to call it indifference.
	It meant that, alright, we all have inclinations, sensual and sexual and intellectual and social.
	We're attracted by this and repelled by that.
	But you must cultivate, you must come to the point that you are not attracted in such a way that it commands your attention and your devotion.
	You must be indifferent.
	And sure, if you lose your parents in death, Everybody is sorry, and so are you.
	But, it does not destroy your devotion, it does not stop you working.
	You get up in the morning, you have a bad headache, you still go to work.
	You see a very beautiful woman, you acknowledge her beauty, but you're not attracted to it lasciviously, or merely with desire to be with her.
	And similarly with food and drink, and everything pleasant and nice, which can be used with that indifference, You're not finally under the control of anything that attracts the senses or the mind.
	Well, that's... I'm sorry, I'm not big enough, I guess.
	I can't even conceive of that.
	How one can get to the point where one can look at a beautiful woman and not, as a man, as a human, be affected.
	Or be affected, yes.
	But not to the extent of chasing after her, going after her, or wanting to form an alliance of marriage.
	Or whatever.
	No, no.
	Be attractive.
	You can't kill the natural tendency.
	But you were taught to be indifferent to it, that it did not command your loyalty.
	And all that you did for the love of God.
	You had a motivation.
	How does a young Jesuit get from that point to the Vatican?
	I mean, what kind of road is that?
	The road in my case, I'm sure it varies with every individual, but the road in my case was simply that at a certain age of 21, 21 and a half, my superior said, we want you to train in Semitic languages, because those are the languages in which the Bible was written, mainly Hebrew and Aramaic.
	Sure.
	But there are allied languages that are useful, like Pharaonic Egyptian and Syriac.
	And South Semitic, and Arabic, etc., and Abyssinian, or Ethiopian, as we used to call it then.
	So they sent me to university, and I studied it for four years.
	And at the end of that they said, all right, now you must study philosophy.
	So then they sent me to a school of philosophy for three years, and it was nothing but rational philosophy, period.
	And after that they said, well, now we want to find out, can you teach?
	So they sent me teaching little boys French and Greek.
	Little boys between the ages of 12 and 14 for three years.
	And then they said, OK, now you must do theology.
	So they gave me four years of theology in Belgium, where there was nothing but theology morning, noon, and night in an international house.
	And then they said after that, OK, now you must get a doctorate in Semitic languages, Oriental art, and history.
	And then they gave me four years of that.
	And at that point then they said, all right, you are now posted to the Vatican to teach there as a philosopher, as a professor.
	Father, were you at some point, I mean, obviously there are so many Jesuits and somebody at some point must have looked at you or put their hand on you and said, You have a special path to follow, even within the church, and started you down that particular path.
	Yes.
	You see, every month, in the old system, it's changed now with the Jesuits, but in the old system, every month, the superior, the local superior, sent in a speculum.
	What they call a speculum.
	A speculum is a lap from mirror.
	It's a report on brother X, brother Martin, brother Kelly, brother whoever he is.
	Each one.
	And those are put together according to your advance, year after year, within the order.
	And at the end of it all, they call you in and say, listen, this is what people have been saying about you all along.
	We, the decisions in your regard were made on account of these facts, and they were account of what every superior
	had said about you.
	And it's that accumulation of facts, that profile, what we now call a profile, we didn't call it a profile then, we
	called it a speculum, a mirror of the man.
	That is what inclines them to mark you out as useful. And of course, their use of you was always made in view of your
	talents.
	There were some men with me who were brilliant mathematicians, but couldn't say bonjour.
	They couldn't learn a language.
	Yes.
	So they graded you according to your talents.
	And they found I had a capacious memory.
	I was hardy the hair.
	No problems with help ever.
	I could sleep on the floor.
	I could labor all day.
	I could live a little sleep.
	I didn't require much more than the normal intake of food, and I was dead keen on my work.
	And they could use those talents.
	But somebody had to see that.
	Oh, yes, they did.
	The very early superiors saw it and wrote to Rome about it.
	The major superior in Rome.
	I see.
	And they made that decision, which passed down the line.
	In those days, Art, it's not the same today.
	In those days, there was one central hub in the Roman Catholic Church.
	It was the Vatican.
	And out of it, picturistically, you can see it in your imagination, there ran pipes.
	Flowed to everywhere.
	Father, hold on.
	Sure.
	We'll be right back to you.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	My guest is Father Malachi Martin.
	From the high desert, you're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
	The CBC Radio Network is a production of the CBC Radio Network.
	Call Art Bell toll free.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	From Manhattan, New York, my guest, my guest is the exorcist, Father Malachi Martin. Yes,
	you'll hear about it.
	I'm...
	I will warn you, though.
	What you will hear tonight may actually not be suitable for all audiences.
	And so, exercise parental control, because some of this can get pretty rough.
	Back now to Father Malachi Martin.
	Father, are you there?
	Of course.
	I've been listening fascinatingly, because I find what you advertise absolutely interesting.
	Well, it is.
	I don't know that it would all apply, for example, to Father Malachi Martin's case, but... Not all, but... Interesting, nevertheless.
	It tells me how the other half lives, doesn't it?
	That's also valuable to know.
	Yes, it is.
	Father, I guess we're trying an experiment here, folks, and we've got a little thing over the telephone trying to...
	Eliminate the pops and the peas and so forth, but it seems to be moving around.
	So... How's it doing now?
	Now it's okay.
	As long as it's not moving around, it's fine.
	All right.
	All right.
	I think we're all right.
	Father, how old are you now?
	I'm 76.
	76?
	Yes.
	How much longer are you going to continue to actively do what you do?
	As long as the good Lord gives me the strength and there's work to be done and people to be helped and people to be counseled and consoled and strengthened.
	And I'll tell you, the particular avocation that I follow, the need for ministration in these matters has only increased.
	For instance, I've been working in the field of exorcism in the northeast corner.
	Since 1970.
	I came over in 1965, but by 1970 I was hard at work.
	These occurrences and happenings, people needing help, needing administration, counseling, needing exorcism, the number, mere numbers alone, the number has increased by about 800%.
	800%!
	In what period of time, Father?
	800%! In what period of time, Father?
	Since 1970.
	800%!
	And then we have new phenomena that we never met that time.
	For instance, we now have a series of 20-somethings and 30-somethings, mainly men, but some women, but mainly young men, successful men in brokerage, in medicine, in science, in architecture, in politics, who come and say, look, Father, I wanted such and such a thing.
	I wanted a job.
	I wanted a salary.
	I wanted a position in this university.
	I wanted that lady, that woman.
	And I finally, in my desperation, I made a pact with the devil.
	And I got what I wanted, but now he won't let me go.
	Please help me.
	We never had that before.
	That's a very new phenomenon.
	And they're all 20-somethings and 30-somethings.
	Well, maybe we've... So, in other words, put simply, we've got a lot more people making bad deals.
	That's right.
	Or, you know, from the half-full, half-empty image, we've got a very, very active Lucifer.
	And Satan, because they are distinct demons, by the way.
	But that's something else.
	That's another story completely.
	But we have a very, very active demonic presence in the present configuration of American society.
	I'm only speaking about America.
	Although, I'm told, All right, let's go back to basics.
	uh... eight active exorcist working in rome and milan because
	milan jorin and rome
	are afflicted with an awful lot of programs people and exorcise the book people
	let's go back to basics please please please somebody said asked
	a father martin if the exorcist movie is not in fact based on incidents that occurred at saint
	Louis University, a Jesuit school in the early seventies.
	I'm a graduate of that school.
	And the folklore has it that there is an abandoned room at the top of Duborg Hall, which was the site of an exorcism which ultimately culminated at St.
	Francis Xavier Church.
	Georgetown U, the home of the protagonist from The Exorcist, also happens to be a Jesuit school.
	Please ask him if there is any tie-in, and if he has seen the room at the Borg Hall at SLU.
	Yes, you're asking me that?
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, I have.
	It did occur there.
	In fact, that exorcism was the landmark exorcism in America, and it's been published in a repertorial form by a man called Thomas Allen, published by Doubleday a couple of years ago, and it's a harrowing story.
	It's a harrowing story because for, I think, two years?
	Yes.
	Over, these two Jesuit priests, unknown to their confreres, their brethren in the same house, had to pursue this gruesome and awesome task of liberating a young man, who was liberated completely.
	And their brethren, their colleagues, never knew anything about it.
	They just knew these two men were on special assignment.
	And the only sign the community had was at the very end when it was all over.
	The Jesuits at that time used to recite prayers at night, mainly the listening of the saints.
	And that night, when they finally staggered home for the night prayers and it was all over, inside in the chapel, the community chapel, where they were praying, there was a sudden, light-some vision of Michael the Archangel.
	in triumph momentary everybody thought that the the the actual authors uh the people who participated
	in that exodus said that their their colleagues were all philosophers men plunged in in philosophic
	thought and scientific research looked up and saw this magnificent spectacle and couldn't make out
	what it all meant because they had had no nothing of they had known nothing about what was going on
	uh... in you know the movie i saw the movie of course like everybody else did
	Yeah, yeah.
	I assume there was some dramatic license with the pea, green pea soup and all the rest of it.
	Yeah, tremendous.
	Tremendous license.
	Because you know, Art, here's the point.
	Here's the difficulty.
	There is no way, there is no way you can convey to anybody who hasn't been through it, this very upsetting sensation of being in the presence of a possessing demon.
	The only parallel might be, I suppose, if you once faced certain death.
	Unless that be what happened.
	A wild animal ready to claw you to death, or a killer about to execute you.
	But those don't even convey it, because the dominant reaction the human frame, the human soul has An exorcism is this.
	You know, but you know for certain, that something out there hates you.
	Hates you personally.
	You are the object of hate.
	A lion about to tear you to bits nearly once a meal.
	And a killer does nothing personal.
	He wants to kill you for your money.
	In modern America, that's probably right, unfortunately.
	That's right, sir.
	I mean, there's nothing personal about it, really.
	Except there's the odd personal crime of assassination.
	Clean passionel.
	But there's hate there, but this is a peculiar thing, this demonic force, and you know it hates you and wants you dead, dead, dead, dead and there.
	Is it your, what is it that it hates of you?
	Is it your faith in God?
	Is it your relative purity?
	What does this demon, what does the devil hate?
	He hates the fact that you represent the power of Christ.
	Because you're only operating with that strength.
	I have known people, unfortunately, psychiatrists, very learned men, intelligent men, rich men, mainly, again, men, not women.
	Women are far more cautious and far more primal in their instincts.
	But I've known men who have dared challenge the demon on their own strength.
	And they've always come off worse than the second best.
	Because the demon knows when a priest is empowered to command it.
	And actually, Art, what happens in an exorcism is a series of commands.
	You never discuss anything with a demon.
	It's... you command it.
	You command it.
	And everything must be in the form of a command.
	The demon says, Oh, who are you?
	Why should I do anything you say?
	Tell me your name, please.
	Is it possible that an exorcist can lose?
	Yes.
	And that's a dreadful sight.
	Because then, they have to, by a severe method, penance, fasting, and prayer, they've got to shake loose the demonic influence.
	Remember in the Gospels, there's this, the Christ picture of the man from whom devils were expelled, And they say, well, now, where are we going to go?
	And they say, well, let's get seven more devils and go back and invest this man all over again.
	So then an exorcist who would lose might himself... He never recovers, Art, to break in on you.
	He never recovers.
	Never?
	Never.
	I've seen it happen.
	It's too much for the human frame.
	To be involved in a failure is some act of pride.
	It's some very bad mistake.
	And I've seen pathetic failures and monumental failures.
	Well then, how and who chooses those who would perform an exorcism, Father?
	Well, once upon a time, when, in the Catholic Church, the science of exorcism, the skill, the exercise of exorcism, was something passed on very carefully.
	From generation to generation, within each diocese, there was a school of thought.
	An old exorcist would talk with the bishop and say, well, I know young Father so-and-so, and he seems to have the character and the disposition to pick up where I leave off.
	And he would train this young man over the years.
	All right.
	Father, I'm going to ask you, I'll tell you what.
	I want to get through this.
	Go ahead and remove our little experiment.
	And remove it, and we're just going to try to have to ask you to, if possible, stay away from the phone by about a couple of inches, and when you do, everything's just fine.
	How's that now?
	God, that's wonderful.
	Okay, we'll stay right there.
	Okay.
	And if I don't, you say, Malachi, attention, and I will immediately attend to it.
	All right.
	At any rate, so they pick a young... Yeah, they used to.
	Nowadays, it's much more haphazard art, because there is no continuing school Of study of this.
	Many bishops do not believe in the devil.
	Many priests do not believe in the devil.
	Or in hell.
	Or in the demon.
	Or the demonic.
	They explain it away by... in terms of psychology.
	Or in terms of disease.
	How can that be a bother if there is God?
	A loss of faith.
	Faith.
	Art.
	Our body of politics.
	The Roman Catholic Organization as an organization.
	We have a crisis of faith amongst the plethora.
	Amongst our leaders.
	That is the big crisis of the Roman Catholic Church.
	And after all of these hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, how can that be and why is that?
	Well, that is the prime question being asked today.
	And Catholics will say, when they study it, they will say, well, God is not giving the grace, His grace, His favor, an entity, a thing He gives.
	It's called grace.
	It helps you to overcome temptation.
	It helps you to be good.
	It helps you to help your fellow man and to do your duty.
	If he withdraws that grace, and it's a supernatural entity, it's a supernatural ability, if he withdraws that from you because you're unworthy of it, then, my friend, you can't act virtuously.
	You fall.
	And the terrible thing is that once you lose that grace, you don't get it back automatically by saying, You don't.
	Well, Father, if this is happening to the Church, and if the need for exorcisms has arisen 800 percent... I know.
	I know.
	You can picture how difficult they are.
	You've got the picture.
	I picture a war underway, one that, at least at present, we don't seem to be winning.
	That is about the lugubrious... The way you should state is very lugubrious fact.
	There is an intense war, and we are losing battle after battle.
	We have a promise from Christ that ultimately we will win the war, or he will win it.
	But we're losing battle after battle.
	And it's obvious in everyday happenings, and it's obvious in the way our prelates and some of our priests are behaving, and in the dissolution of what was once a monolithic institution, an organization.
	Now, all the while I'm talking about the organization, Art.
	The actual organization.
	Yes.
	Once upon a time, it was the premier monolithic organization which withstood everything for 2,000 years.
	It is no longer there.
	We are in deep doo-doo.
	We really are.
	I make a joke about it because it's a very painful fact for me.
	Such a fast fall, such a quick change.
	It took nearly 30 years, ostensibly, since 1965 for this disruption to take place, but now we know that the rot, the change, started way back, at least 100 years ago.
	A real rot.
	Is there a marker, is there a point, or was there an occurrence that marked that change?
	There was a meeting in Rome from 1962 to 1965 called the Second Vatican Council.
	A council in the church is a gathering in of all the bishops.
	And there were 2800 bishops at that particular meeting for three years.
	They came for sessions in the autumn and the spring.
	Each of those years.
	62, 63, 64, and 65.
	Under a pope called Pope John XXIII.
	Fat, roly-poly, genial John XXIII.
	The good Pope John, as they called him.
	Yes.
	And the result of that meeting was this sudden hurricane of change and abandonment of what had been done for 1,500 years.
	1,500 years after change was so violent.
	1,500 years.
	And, I mean, for instance, you take small things that happened.
	Like, there was an order of nuns teaching nuns on the West Coast of America.
	It had, I think, 49 or 59 schools for girls.
	It had 600 nuns.
	The effect was to disband the entire order and close all the schools.
	And they took to rational psychology instead of religion.
	And they ceased to be nuns.
	They abandoned their vows.
	They walked away.
	What in the world would lead them to that change?
	I mean, what internally went on?
	What sequence of events unfolded that... They brought in psychologists who analyzed And pointed out to them that they were very unhappy women.
	They were unfulfilled.
	They weren't married.
	They had taken vows of poverty and celibacy and obedience.
	And they were not living like normal human beings, enjoying themselves and tasting life to the full.
	And so they all abandoned it.
	600.
	That's absolutely incredible.
	It is.
	And the psychologists who brought that around have written it up recently.
	In a report, and then we are to blame for that.
	To blame?
	Yeah, we are to blame, because we went in, we treated them in such a way that they were too weak, too uninstructed.
	They fell for what we said as a solution, and they walked away from all religious life.
	That implies that their motivation was not pure, that they were just doing this as a test to see if they could Destroy their faith.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	It does say that.
	These psychologists are very repentant now.
	They say we destroyed an entire school system.
	We destroyed an entire way of life, religious way of life, which produced saints and zealous people that did an awful lot of good for so many families, Catholic and non-Catholic.
	And we didn't know what we were doing.
	We were experimenting with the human, what they call the human potential.
	Their argument to the nuns was, you must fulfill your total potential.
	And fulfilling that total potential meant that they laid aside their religious habit,
	and they got married, or had dates, for sure, and went through the normal crisis.
	But the result was that they lost the grace of their religious vocation, and closed their schools.
	They closed all schools.
	The potential for human evil never ceases to amaze me.
	I know.
	It's fantastic.
	And the point is that the potential was there.
	And now that's only one example.
	I mean, that is only one example.
	For instance, in that year alone, 1968 alone, there were 348 annulments, marriage annulments.
	That is, Rome decided that certain people had not been really married.
	They could consider themselves separate and go off and form a new marriage.
	The numbers are changing quickly.
	Father, relax, take care.
	We'll be back to you after the top of the hour.
	My guest is Father Malachi Martin.
	Does it surprise you to know that exorcisms since 1970 are up eight A hundred percent.
	Now, just what do you suppose that might mean?
	Art-Valve is taking calls on the wild card line.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	702-727-1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am. My guest is the exorcist. He is Father Malachi Martin for 30 years.
	is.
	He did, and actually still occasionally does, exorcisms.
	Can you imagine that?
	Try and imagine that since 1970 in America, the need for exorcisms has gone up 800%.
	800% Somebody's here aren't they we'll get back to father Martin
	in a few moments as Again, I want to warn you that some of the material you're going to hear is going to be obviously disturbing.
	So bear that in mind and exercise your parental control, please.
	Now a man who has advised two popes, has been performing exorcisms for 30 years, Father Malachi Martin.
	Father?
	Hello there, Art.
	How are you?
	I can hear your voice forever.
	It goes on like molecular honey.
	As does yours.
	Father, would you describe for us what you consider to be the most difficult exorcism you have ever done?
	Can you describe it, or is that one you can't talk about?
	No.
	I can give you the bare bones, and the bare bones are quite interesting as bones.
	This was an exorcism in the northeast corner of America, to leave the location actually anonymous for the moment.
	Because actually, in all this matter, whenever we talk about it to people outside the circle of exorcists and outside the actual exorcism itself, we are bound by laws of privacy that are very strict.
	You'd be surprised how sensitive people are.
	They don't want the people in the office to know they've been exorcised.
	Sometimes they don't want their wives or their husbands or their families to know.
	No, I'm not surprised.
	Between you and me and the Holy Spirit, exorcism, possession and exorcism, is a dirty, mucky, inhuman, insalubrious, undignified, filthy event.
	It dirties everybody and soils everybody.
	And it draws blood.
	And it can cause death.
	What it does to the exorcist in the long run, it deprives him of sleep.
	After a major exorcism, you never sleep deeply for a couple of weeks.
	You don't participate in a good meal and enjoy the food.
	No, you can't.
	You just can't.
	Something is being cut out of you.
	I must say I agree with that old exorcist who told me years ago when I was a young man of 27 in Cairo and later on in Rome, look, young man, a bit of you is going to die every time you do an exorcism.
	Some portion of you is going to die and go away to God and wait until you die and go to the other side.
	And it's true.
	Something does die in you.
	And there are parallels to that.
	I mean, any mother or father who really gives to their children and rears them well and He invests love and affection and interest in them.
	You know, you give them something you can't get back, and you don't want it back.
	Well then, Father, how have you remained so alive through 70-plus years?
	Well, it must be the grace of God.
	It must be my destiny.
	I think God has deeply picked out and said, OK, you clean up the muck, and you do it.
	And you get the grace to do so.
	At any rate, you said this one occurred in the Northeast.
	Yes, the Northeast corner.
	And it was a young man, and he had gone very far.
	In a coven to which he belonged.
	A coven of... a coven, let's put it like that.
	I don't want to identify it further because identification is so easily done.
	Yes.
	And he had finally come to the point that he was out of control at certain moments and then back in control again.
	And his parents, he wasn't married, thank God, at that stage, came to us and said, look, our son needs help.
	And he went through the usual tests, physical first of all, and then psychological.
	And the psychologist came back and said, no, no, the pattern is normal.
	There are aberrations there, but they can be corrected with therapy.
	That's something that we don't understand.
	But that was the key, it was always the key for us, to know that we could possibly have a case of possession.
	But you never know until you go into it.
	So then we set up a trial Beginning, and yes, it turned out that the demon was there and challenged us, and we had to enter the exorcism fully.
	It took about, oh, I'd say it lasted a year and a half.
	A year and a half?
	A year and a half.
	In relays, we did this.
	Where is the subject during this year and a half?
	Well, normally, this particular young man, The family was sufficiently well off to let him give up his job.
	He was a broker.
	He was in brokerage.
	And they could take the time off.
	And it was session after session, and then he would relapse into normalcy and say, what have I been doing to you people?
	And we just say, well, this is what's happening.
	And his mother and father and his brother would explain to him.
	But the terrible thing was that the demon possessing him Demons, by the way, vary.
	They vary in quality and they vary in function.
	And by the way, the only way you have of identifying demons is by their function.
	Their function?
	Their function.
	Well, let me give you a very simple example.
	Look, if I go into a room where I say mass every week, there usually are ten people there.
	And if you set an analogy, How do you know there are ten people there?
	I point to ten bodies.
	You know, I count them.
	But demons have no bodies.
	So how do you, how do you, how do you determine how many there are there?
	Precisely.
	Well, it's by their function.
	The function is always different.
	Each one has a particular function.
	And that function is a distortion of an angelic function because originally they were all angels before they fell in revolt and rebelled against God.
	And were condemned to hell, and condemned to be demonic for the rest of their existence in eternity.
	This particular demon was the demon of the desecration of human love.
	That was his main function.
	The desecration of human love?
	Yes.
	And in his paroxysm of possession, this young man would give violent and heart-rending descriptions Of contempt for the human act of love, for the act of a mother's love.
	For the physical act of love, or do you mean the... Both.
	Both.
	Physical, psychophysical, mental, everything.
	Just love.
	Human love.
	Of a mother for her children, of a father for his children, parents, of lovers, love of your country, but it's the desecration of human love.
	Only some people could realize how contemptuous the demon is of our human lovemaking, whether it's parents, or lovers, or whatever.
	Married people.
	Well, in most depictions on the silver screen of contempt for love, as there was in the exorcist, there's just horribly degrading demonstrations of Physical disregard for the human sexual act or sexuality.
	That's right, that's right.
	That's the kind of thing you see?
	They endeavor to demonstrate that on the silver screen.
	It's very difficult.
	Because it's the, you know, take a typical passage from that particular episode, which I would never forget.
	The demon again, He asserts himself in his right.
	You have established his name, the name he wants to be called by, or it wants to be called by.
	We all say he because that's a general pronoun in English which means anything.
	You know the name and you say, well then why are you torturing this young man?
	Why are you twisting his lips?
	and to his mind and then there's all of that and i think of language which
	uh... no nobody would permit to be fed up there
	yes as such but at the idea was
	at that well he has become an instrument of real degradation
	physical love and for the love of his parents
	and the love of his uh...
	his brother father how would a psychiatrist
	uh... delineate between uh... and i certainly understand what you're saying about
	what the the set of symptoms is manhattan
	Between a true psychological difficulty and something that goes a step beyond that that required that you be called in.
	Yes.
	And this is where the good psychiatrists, whether they're Christian or Jewish or believers or unbelievers, where they send patients to us.
	We get them every week.
	Letters from a psychiatrist in Illinois, wherever, saying, I have such and such a patient, and he or she wants to come and see you because... And then, what they always find is this, that there is a normal pattern for various mental afflictions, mental troubles, that are listed in the diagnostic book published by the American Psychiatric Association.
	Sure.
	But then there are a series of phenomena that don't respond to anything.
	And when they meet those phenomena, For instance, the person starts speaking suddenly a foreign language.
	The person suddenly has the power of levitation.
	Have you seen that with your own eyes?
	Oh yes, I've seen levitation and I've heard the foreign language.
	Some of them I understood and some of them I didn't understand.
	Or else they find the patient saying to them, Doctor, you've been sleeping with another woman and she's not your wife.
	They have a knowledge which has nothing to do with psychology at all.
	Which generally is true or not always accurate?
	Always accurate.
	Always accurate because, you see, once you commit sin, the theology is that that is known to the devil.
	Sure.
	Can be known but the demon.
	And God can wipe it out.
	And only God can.
	There is a story about that marvelous saint.
	Who was assigned to a convent in France in the 1700s, because there was a nun there saying she had visions of Jesus.
	And his name was Claude de la Columbia, a Jesuit.
	And he spoke with this young nun, Margaret Mary, and she said, well, Jesus told me to spread this devotion, a particular type of devotion to him.
	And he said, well, the next time Jesus comes to see you now, sister, ask him to tell you the last mortal sin I committed.
	It was a test.
	So he went away, and he only visited the conference once a month, and when he came back the next month, he heard the confession of all the nuns, and then this sister Margaret Mary came in, and she, he heard her confession, and then he said to her, did you Jesus come?
	She said, yes.
	He said, did you ask him the question, what is my last mortal sin, to prove to me that it was him, and you're not being deceived by the devil?
	She said, yes, I did ask him, but he said he has forgotten it, because he has forgiven the sinner.
	He always forgives, he always forgets what he forgives.
	How did he accept that answer?
	He said, that's it.
	That's genuine.
	Only Jesus could do that.
	Had she come back and correctly named the last mortal sin... Had he confessed that sin, which he had, then she used with the devil.
	He would have known it was with the devil.
	So you spent Alone, Father, a year and a half?
	No, we had two others working with us.
	Two others?
	There were three of you?
	We couldn't do it, because we knew it was a long-term thing.
	This was an ingrained possession, and the demon was of a very exalted kind.
	We suspected who it was, or what it was.
	We could never establish it completely, but it was a very higher-up, really.
	A demon of great power and resistance.
	Resistance.
	And you determined that very quickly, I suppose.
	Oh, yes.
	Very quickly, after the third or fourth session.
	You knew that you were up against one of the boys.
	One of the real background boys.
	And you knew it.
	And besides that, then, after this peculiar thing that happened to you.
	Look, you and I are talking at the present moment, Bob.
	I've never seen your face except on television.
	I thought once.
	But we've been talking, all right?
	And we've been communicating.
	My voice strikes your ear, and your voice strikes my ear, and the sounds enter in, and they convey the concepts to me.
	We talk.
	We exchange.
	Okay.
	Verbally, we're exchanging.
	Sure.
	But at the same time, you and I, being adults, we know that once we really converse, and you and I have conversed, and are conversing, there's an upper-level conversation between us, brain-to-brain, soul-to-soul.
	We're communicating something beyond words, of which words are the vehicle.
	And you know that.
	There's an upper-level conversation going on.
	Of course.
	And when you do converse with somebody like that, then you are really talking.
	You're dialoguing.
	You're really communicating.
	And words are what they're meant to be, near physical vehicles of your thought.
	So it's very, very quickly, then, what you're up against.
	And I suppose it must be very sobering, even for somebody who has done what you have done, to realize you are up against something very strong, very serious.
	And very evil.
	I mean, even in the sense that it wants you dead.
	You have this... You see, I don't know if you've ever had to deal with people who hated you in the world, the normal world, and who really did like you.
	Unfortunately, nearly on a daily basis.
	All right.
	Well, and so have I in the last 76 years.
	You've finally got to get away and talk to your friends, and clean your mind out, and get that peace and quiet, because they've invaded you.
	You see, anybody you talk to, anybody you talk to or touch in this life, they modify you morally.
	What does that mean?
	It means they have some influence on your will and your mind.
	And people often say, give me a drink, I want to get rid of all this garbage, collectively, from talking to that man or that woman, you know?
	It's a common human experience that we modify each other by our language.
	That's why you say to a bunch of people, no, I don't want to meet her.
	I don't want to meet her.
	I don't know why, I just don't like her.
	During the course of an exorcism of the kind you talked about, is it directly encountering this evil demon or is it half that and half psychology and half sort of a brainwashing of the victim of this Evil entity, or how do you approach it?
	The essence is this.
	You are the possessing demon.
	I have made you give me your name.
	I am now going to command you to get out.
	And the tussle, the squabble, the fight, the struggle, is precisely in getting it to relinquish its hold.
	And to go.
	That's the thing.
	It's a confrontation.
	I often hear about people doing exorcism in the sense that they say healing prayers over somebody.
	And they pray a whole lot of people with hands joined around somebody who's behaving in a way that suggests demonic obsession or possession.
	That's fine.
	I have nothing against prayer.
	Healing prayers are a great idea.
	But an exorcism is a confrontation.
	It's a confrontation between the exorcist and the possessing demon.
	And this confrontation went on for a year and a half!
	That's right.
	That's right, because the demon would disappear.
	Yes, we called him Mr. Flash.
	So, in other words, you could only confront him when he was apparent, when he was there.
	That's right.
	But then, you see, habits form, and it gradually became apparent that at certain times of the day and certain times of the week, the demon was much more communicative.
	It was a funny thing.
	We had one psychologist that was right through all that, and he's still practicing psychiatry.
	He has modified his entire process.
	He no longer... He works pro bono now completely, because he went through such a searing experience with the whole thing.
	But he was right through it all.
	And he performed the post-operative, as it were, therapy to the person, because once they come out of that, they don't know what happened.
	Usually they don't know what happened.
	It's just sort of like the last year and a half was a big blank?
	A big blank, and then they begin to get memories and images, and the psychologist has to deal with those.
	Alright, I would be interested when we come back, relax for a moment, Father, in when you know you've got him, that moment after a year and a half, when you know you've got him, and how you know that.
	Fascinating stuff.
	Exorcism.
	The Exorcist.
	father malachi martin will be right back and
	all of them one eight hundred six one eight eight two five five east of
	the rockies at one eight hundred eight two five five zero three three
	one eight hundred eight two five five zero three three
	this is the cdc radio network if you've ever wanted to meet
	the exorcist this is your morning
	He is Father Malachi Martin.
	He has been doing exorcisms for 30 years.
	We'll get back to him in just a moment.
	I'm Art Bell, and this, of course, is CBC.
	All right, back now to Father Malachi Martin.
	Father, how do you know, Father, when you have arrived at that moment when you have him, when you have found the weakness in this evil?
	And you can cause it to leave.
	How do you know when that moment arrives?
	That is a question I want to answer.
	It's something along the following lines.
	Okay, the confrontation has gone badly for the demon.
	And it has had to yield its name.
	And when it started, to possess this particular person, and what were its intent, and what has it achieved, and finally, there comes the point where you insist, commanding me, that it depart, and it depart in the name of Jesus Christ.
	Its will has been broken.
	Yes.
	Its power properly has been broken, because the will, their will stays firmly anti-God, and full of hate, and full of filth, wretched filth, filth that's disgusting, but you take away their power.
	There comes a moment when you almost hear, and sometimes you do hear, what would be described in human language as a yowl of pain.
	A real groan, but it sometimes has a physical analogue coming from the mouth of the possessed person.
	An agony?
	Yes, something departing as it were to die.
	Of course it doesn't die, it really departs and has lost its foothold.
	And here there's a funny thing which we should go into later on, but it's a It's a fine, poor refinement of the whole question.
	It's this, what happens to them when you expel them?
	And why don't they want to leave?
	And why do they come in the first place?
	Yeah, oh yes.
	That's a, get back to answer your question directly.
	It's the transformation in the possessed person that takes place.
	Sometimes, suddenly, not sometimes, suddenly at that moment, when, and by the way, you never know.
	You've got to keep that until you reach the point.
	Suddenly, it's as if it were a giant, invisible, torturing claw.
	Let go of them.
	They suddenly relax.
	So it is like this giant battle.
	It's looking for your weaknesses.
	You're looking for its weaknesses.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	Any weakness you have, they'll exploit it.
	And you're probing each other.
	Yes.
	Probing and tempting each other.
	And threatening each other.
	You by commands, it by suggestions.
	And it takes... I remember listening to a young exorcist tackle a demon once and interrupting him and pushing him aside.
	Because he was beginning to answer questions put to him by the demon.
	Huh?
	That's fatal.
	That's the beginning of control?
	Yes, because then he has your mind.
	Then he can attract you.
	You haven't got an angelic mind, that's what matters.
	You've got a human mind with all its limitations.
	The possessed person, there's a sudden relaxation, and the face, it's the face, really, changes whether their eyes are open or shut.
	It's this sudden look of total peace, total relaxation, total... It's like sleep, but it isn't.
	And then you know, and when they open their eyes, if their eyes have been closed, they ask where they are, and they have this extraordinary Peace.
	Extraordinary joy.
	Extraordinary happiness.
	And it's luminous in their eyes.
	And they want to eat something.
	They want to drink something.
	And the symptoms, they're all gone.
	They're all gone.
	The demon has departed.
	And the psychologists we've had present register everything.
	Heartbeat, pulse, and everything else.
	And they say there's a dramatic change in all those things.
	That takes place at that moment of resolution, but it's cheaply what's all destructive, was this sudden transformation of the person, from being an ugly, distorted, misshapen face, and tortured, and with filthy language, and sometimes filthy smells, and filthy, cold atmosphere, or stinking hot atmosphere, all suddenly over!
	It's like as if a storm was over, and the sun was rising, and in an upland scene, and God is in heaven and all is right with the world, to use the words of Robert Barney.
	All right, Father, let us move, then, to the why.
	I'm sure that any person so possessed at some point would ask you or the exorcist, why me?
	Well, why me is one question.
	Why ever anybody at all is something else, and why did the demon get out of it?
	And why do they not want to leave once they're there?
	First of all, why me?
	We tried hard.
	We did our best over a period of years.
	With all the data at our disposal, we had a very good database, as we see nowadays, in our computer language, to create a profile of the possessible person.
	Ah.
	Yeah.
	We said about recording age, education, economic condition, father and mother, siblings, location, where were they born, where they go to school, kindergarten, What is their history?
	And usually you get all their history from their parents, or their friends, or their wife, or their husband, or whoever it is.
	You assemble all that, and you try and create a profile of their language.
	What languages do they know?
	Where have they travelled?
	Who are their companions?
	What habits have they got?
	Have they dabbled in the occult?
	What?
	You assemble all that, and you know what we've found?
	What?
	With about, wide scale, 700 cases where we've profiled them, there is no rule.
	There is no rule.
	It's completely random.
	Princess, I must confess to you, I know very naughty people.
	I know murderers.
	And they've stopped their murdering most of them.
	I know mafia people.
	And I know prostitutes.
	And I know men who are profligate in their sexuality.
	And I know men who have sliced up other men in their onward conquest of a particular type of business,
	but they're just naughty.
	They're not possessed.
	They're just sinful.
	And that's not possession.
	Possession is something else.
	It's a peculiar inhabitation of your being by the power of the demon.
	So there's no...
	You can't say about so-and-so, well, he's going to be possessed.
	So there is no profile?
	No profile at all.
	The richer person... No, no.
	Rich or poor.
	It doesn't matter.
	In fact, between you and me and the Holy Spirit, as we say, most of the big, big exorcisms we've done are very well-off, well-heeled people, well-educated people.
	But that begins to suggest there is a profile.
	Or does it mean that the poor cannot afford?
	I don't know.
	It happens.
	But then we have a whole galaxy of ordinary people working.
	Clerical workers, blue collar workers, factory workers, road workers, construction workers, of all types, faiths, and descriptions.
	No profile.
	We tried it.
	We tried every possible balancer.
	And we had a statistician working with us.
	And she was great.
	She knew exactly what to do with statistics and database.
	In fact, it's your particular fault because, by the way, nobody's ever possessed or obsessed unless they say yes.
	Well, that's what I was going to say.
	That was where I was going to go next.
	Is this most times invited or does it ever occur without invitation?
	It always occurs through invitation.
	Now, by the way, Art, there's more than one way to skin a cat and there's more than one way to say yes.
	Well, let me tell you, give you sort of variations on that.
	For instance, I, at the age of 28, working very hard, teaching little boys, Greek and French, I had to stay awake at night, stay up at night working, and get up early in the morning to prepare my lectures, and prepare the papers, and correct the exams, etc.
	And I took up smoking.
	And I said, no, it'll keep me awake.
	I became addicted.
	Did I say yes?
	Not formally, but yes, I did actually.
	You were a smoker?
	I was a smoker and I was addicted and I said yes to it.
	It's like I had a marriage case a few years ago where they were breaking up but they were engaged and they were supposed to get married and they came to me because they were breaking up and I knew them.
	I knew both their families and the confrontation went something like this.
	He said, well, I didn't ask to fall in love with you.
	She said, no John, I'm sorry.
	You did.
	You did everything.
	You carried me on my first date.
	And you kissed me on the cheek.
	And you held my hand.
	And you went to bed with me.
	You did everything to fall in love with me.
	He said, you said yes to me.
	And now you want to renege on that yes.
	And she needs a compensation.
	I don't know what she wants.
	I forget the details of it.
	Or I prefer not to recount them in public.
	But the point is that saying yes is a very, very Easy thing to do.
	To drink?
	To cocaine?
	Sure.
	To illicit love?
	To illicit love?
	We say yes in various ways.
	You haven't got to say Y-E-S, you know?
	It's very easy.
	So, same way.
	I find, for instance, that if I use a Ouija board, I get answers.
	And I follow those answers and I profit by it.
	It helps me.
	Or I find that if I have a séance with certain people in a coven, Father, may I ask you about this?
	corporate every night people and but they do consult spirit
	and i find i get compilation problem and encouragement and i'm slowly entering to a compact i'd never say i would
	make a pact with you but they've had to i'd come to depend on it
	and he'd get all the time father may i ask you about this
	uh...
	you were not a catholic priest
	uh... but instead were a native american
	Would you be a medicine man?
	And if so, what... A medicine man is, from time to time, called to drive out spirits.
	Yes, there are.
	What are they doing, Father?
	Are they doing the same work?
	Is it the same channel?
	Is it... I'll tell you, Art, what I think.
	It's not that you've asked a personal opinion of a very difficult subject.
	But my experience is the following.
	And I'm not merely talking about Native Americans.
	I'm talking about Baptist clergymen I know.
	Sure.
	Anglican clergymen, Episcopal clergymen, Greek Orthodox clergymen, Russian Orthodox clergymen, and some Methodists.
	I'm talking now from experience of people, but mainly evangelicals.
	I have seen such miracles of cure and restitution and depossession Yes.
	Yes.
	including Native Americans, really shamans, you know, the old type,
	that because of my beliefs, I must believe, I must conclude, that my Lord Jesus Christ, in whom I believe, and who is,
	for me, the source of all power, has used them in their innocence and their faith
	to cure people outside the reach of, say, a Catholic priest like me.
	Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
	Perfectly.
	Yes, perfectly.
	I cannot deny that.
	In other words, you've got to make it fit.
	That's right.
	I've got to make it fit.
	I know a Baptist minister.
	He's an old man now.
	But I mean, he has done Trojan work in this matter.
	I cannot imagine that any demon would obey him unless Jesus gave this man the power.
	And that was the grace of my Lord Jesus Christ that has helped him do that.
	And these are people who have nothing to do with Catholicism or with some of the Christianity.
	But they, it has worked.
	But I have that, that experience and I can't deny it.
	And actually there's an old principle in Catholic theology which says, there's non allegato sacramentis, in Latin, which means that God is not bound by sacraments as such when he wants to be free of them.
	Normally he does use them.
	He does use his priests.
	But he can use his powers wherever he wants to.
	And I've seen that power used for good.
	And I must conclude that it is the grace of my Lord Jesus.
	So there may be many channels to the same source.
	Of course there are.
	But once you get, once you come in contact with the source, Jesus, the Lord Jesus, and his life, and his church, then you have the obligation in conscience to search and ask.
	Because, you know, it's like the rich young man in the Gospels.
	He came to Jesus and said, look, I've observed the commandments all my life.
	The Jewish commandments, the Torah, and the 613 precepts.
	What else need I do?
	And Jesus looked at him and loved him, the Gospel says, and said, OK, sell what you have.
	Give it to the poor and come follow me.
	And the young man went away sad because he had many possessions.
	It's a mirror of what does happen with a lot of people.
	They see what they should do, but they can't give up that particular thing they love.
	They can't renounce what is bad in their lives, what is repellent, and therefore they can't accept His grace.
	Father, we talked about something last time that has left a chill down my spine.
	Namely?
	Maybe for personal reasons.
	I don't even know.
	You have said, There are perhaps millions of people walking around who have, in effect, made a deal with the devil.
	That's right.
	They have said, give me, I don't know, success or love or whatever.
	And they've made this pact.
	Now, I think you're right.
	I think there are millions of people walking around like that.
	These are people not possessed, as we have discussed, with the traditional possession, but they've made a deal and they know it, don't they?
	They know it.
	Then you see, Art, there's this terrible thing about it, that if you make a deal and live up to it, here's the thing that gives a chill to my spine, and probably is what you're talking about in your case, if you are totally faithful, put it like that, to your agreement, if you're totally faithful to it, you will be helped by the demon, to a certain degree, or a great degree.
	He will foment you.
	It will foment you.
	It will help you.
	It will enlighten you.
	You will get light.
	You'll get solutions.
	And you will prosper.
	Now, your end may be memorable.
	Well, Father, there's a lot of people out there right now who are probably quaking as they listen to this because they're doing well, one way or the other, and I'm sure at some point in their life they've said to themselves, they thought, you know, I'd just about do anything to have the following.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	And they did.
	And they got it.
	And now they are possessed.
	And by the way, there are degrees of that, too.
	But we call that perfect possession.
	You see, the normal person that comes to us, or the person that comes to us normally, is somebody tortured.
	And his psychologist, or his psychiatrist, or his parents, or somebody says, look, you'd better go and consult a priest about this, because it's... Right.
	And he does.
	And he is imperfectly possessed.
	He or she is imperfectly possessed.
	But the perfectly possessed person is utterly calm.
	They are in confidence.
	Very...
	Yes, you do.
	You do.
	You do.
	I remember walking with a friend of mine, walking home after lunch we had in a deli, and there were two men coming to her, along the street.
	them and when you recognize them you run like a rabbit.
	You see, I take it you see them in Manhattan all the time.
	Yes you do, you do, you do.
	I remember walking with a friend of mine, walking home after lunch we had in a deli
	and there were two men coming to us along the street.
	Middle aged men in ordinary clothes.
	you.
	And I knew they had just committed a murder.
	I knew that.
	You knew that?
	I knew that, yep.
	Because of the demons with them.
	And I said something like, Jesus Christ.
	I said, let's walk on.
	Okay, I'm starting to lose you a little audio-wise here, Father.
	Yes.
	But you actually saw the demon with them?
	Yes, I do that.
	I do that.
	I have that second vision.
	When the demon is there.
	When the demon is in possession, yes, I do.
	How do you feel about having this second vision?
	This must be some sort of awful burden.
	I'm not going to... No.
	No, it isn't, because I have a very good guardian angel.
	All right.
	Father, stay right there.
	Rest for a few minutes.
	We'll be back.
	My guest is the exorcist, Father Malachi Martin.
	I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Music playing.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1295. That's 702-727-1295. First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1292.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Good morning, everybody.
	My guest is the exorcist, Father Malachi Martin.
	And he'll be right back.
	Back now to Manhattan, New York, and Father Malachi Martin.
	Father?
	Um, I've got a fax here that I would like to read to you and get a response if I could.
	Um, it says, uh, Art, the Father said something earlier that really bothered me.
	He was talking about the successful guys who made these PACs to be successful, and I want to ask something.
	Please ask for me.
	I've been going downhill financially for two years.
	Doesn't look like it's going to get any better.
	I could have filed bankruptcy a long time ago, but I have an ethical problem with that, and I believe it's the Lord's will for me to stiff my creditors, not stiff them that way.
	But it's getting to the breaking point.
	I've pleaded with and nagged the Lord, but he hasn't seemed to want to change anything.
	It just keeps getting worse.
	About a week ago, I was sitting at my computer and I had this thought.
	I'd sell my soul to get out of debt.
	I dismissed the thought, but the fact that I had it really bothered me and still does.
	I'd rather die than do anything like that.
	Am I in trouble?
	This man, or whoever it was, is not in trouble right now for the following reason.
	They did not yield to the suggestion.
	They repelled it.
	Okay, get a little bit away from your phone, Robert.
	Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
	That's all right.
	Just being intense, because this is a human soul talking to me now.
	No, this is very, very important, because so many people out there have done the same thing at some point in their life.
	Let me finish, though.
	I'm about to speak to a person.
	Yes.
	Whoever he or she is, let them listen to this very carefully.
	The only reason you repelled that idea, the only reason that you choose not to follow that, and you were offended By the mere suggestion of it in your mind, that means that the Lord Jesus is in possession of your soul.
	Otherwise, you couldn't reject it.
	Now, are you in trouble?
	No.
	Are you liable to be attacked?
	Yes.
	You are liable to be attempted.
	But, apparently, hear the truth, this very moment we're talking, Art Bell and I and you, and we are talking together.
	There's always that upper-level conversation, Art, I spoke about.
	You are safe because apparently the grace of our Lord Jesus is with you, whoever you are, or wherever you are.
	But watch and pray.
	And by the way, I don't think it will violate your beliefs.
	Your great protection against anything nefarious, anything, any nether temptation, will be just to pronounce the name of Jesus.
	It's a shield.
	And I suppose if this person's life were to change around and they were to suddenly begin doing quite well, then the question would be more intense and more worrisome than ever before.
	In other words, did I make the deal?
	No, no.
	There's no big deal.
	You make a deal, it's a yes.
	Or a no.
	It's all a yes or a no.
	I see.
	You know, it's like saying, will you come to bed with me?
	No, I won't.
	Yes, I will.
	You know, it's a definitive thing.
	Or you do it symbolically.
	I know.
	But they have not done that.
	What I want to assure them is that the very tendency they have, the horror they have, the repulsion they experience, comes from the Lord Jesus.
	Because it doesn't come from Satan.
	All right, Father.
	Many, many people want me to ask you about this in your previous appearance on this program.
	You spoke briefly about the signs to look for in the sky this spring.
	Yes.
	And everybody would like words from you on this.
	There have, as you know, been signs.
	We've got an incredible comet crossing.
	I know, I know.
	With accompanying human events that are tearing our souls, really, in one sense.
	Yes.
	Because the whole Heaven's Day thing is something that It feels itself into our modern minds whether we like it or not.
	Yes.
	And it has provoked, and the usual sign of that for us in America is the feeding frenzy of the media.
	They've been on this and they're still on it.
	Yes, I know.
	There's no doubt about it.
	A significant event.
	Here's what I said before, what I think still, and this I give out as my personal interpretation of the humanism of our day.
	It's this.
	Between the end of winter, which is now the end, I think, and the end of this spring, which is in May, roughly and approximately, there is a great abnormal sign in our human skies.
	It's not merely the comet, which is a marvelous thing, there's no doubt about it, but something really truly abnormal that makes the whole world stop for an instant, or longer than an instant.
	Then, in that case, If anybody has any faith to take it out of his pocket and polish it up, they will need it because there is coming shortly after that, if that takes place, there is coming shortly after that, a series of events that will try us.
	Not merely floods, not merely earthquakes, not merely diseases, but something far worse than that.
	If nothing happens, if it's just a comet and the Heaven's Gate event, and that's our business, Then okay, there's no immediate pressure of events.
	That's my interpretation.
	So that's why I say keep your eyes on the skies, because it will be visible.
	There would be then no mistaking this sign?
	No mistaking whatever.
	You won't necessarily begin to believe in God on this account.
	You won't necessarily go to or run to the nearest church or temple or mosque.
	You won't automatically make up with your enemies, having been their enemy for a long time.
	You won't make restitution for your sins.
	So not necessarily that.
	But you will know that a power which exceeds all other power is speaking to you directly.
	Would this be an event, Father, that the scientists would be able to explain for the spiritually nervous?
	Yes.
	Explain away, they would say, well... Yes.
	They will.
	Like in 1938, there was this peculiar This peculiar display of light, which we now know was not.
	At that time, the scientists said, oh, this is Aurora Borealis.
	And of course, we now know it wasn't Aurora Borealis.
	And by the way, that night, that night in August 1938, Hitler, Adolf Hitler himself, was in the Wolf's Lair at Desperate Gardens, this secret hideaway he had.
	He was there with his chief people, Goering and Goebbels and Himmler and their aides.
	And they watched this phenomenon of light, brilliant light.
	And you know what Hitler said?
	What?
	He said, gentlemen, this means we now go to bloodshed.
	Hitherto, by that time, by the way, he had taken Czechoslovakia and Austria and the Sudetenland, and he was well on his way to be a powerful figure.
	And he hasn't shed really blood.
	No German blood has been really shed.
	But this time, looking at this, this man instinctually, who is possessed, by the way, he said, now, this is the sign that we have to shed blood, etc.
	Was that a sign at the beginning of the final solution?
	Yeah, it was.
	All right.
	Before we leave the topic, Art, if you can get on the subject of the mass suicide in California, please ask Malachi about the Green Bomb Experiments.
	He mentioned them briefly the last time he was on your program, and there might be some similarities that would be interesting to the listeners.
	Ha!
	Whoever wrote that, it's not the first time they've talked about this subject, and they know, I think, much more than they're putting into those simple lines.
	There is a programming system, to put it very briefly, developed since the Second World War, Based on the experiments Nazi doctors carried out at Hitler's command to achieve total mind control, there is now in vogue a system of programming and it is, I was going to say, devilish in its efficiency.
	It is almost unbreakable.
	It is so unbreakable that when you show programs One of your programs, because you have a whole list of programs corresponding to the letters of the Greek alphabet, Alpha, Beta, Delta, down to Omega, one of the programs is a program to prevent you being deprogrammed.
	Do you understand what I'm saying?
	Yes, I do.
	It's devilish.
	But there are psychiatrists, one of them in particular, who has studied how to deprogram The actual anti-programming program.
	I know it gets complicated at this stage.
	And this programming makes of the person really what we now know as the Manchurian Candidate, if you remember that book.
	Clearly.
	Because it's based on fact.
	It's not a myth.
	In other words, I mean, I've had somebody sit in my consulting room and say to me, Father, if that phone rings now, and the voice mentions two words, and they wrote the words down for me.
	Then I will go and do what I'm told to do, according to my programming,
	that I've been programmed.
	And they were programmed at the age of two, they were reinforced and programmed at the age of seven,
	and fourteen, and finally, the entire programming was achieved at twenty-one, age
	twenty-one.
	And there are literally hundreds, probably thousands,
	who have been programmed.
	And that's the reference to the Green Bomb Experiment?
	That's right.
	Father, what is, how does one delineate,
	is there a delineation between the spirit and the soul?
	Are they one and the same?
	Are they separate?
	Well, I'll tell you, it's a question of usage, Art.
	The soul is this, and we're not merely flesh and blood.
	We're not merely matter, dimensional matter, sensible and tactile, and olfactory.
	But there's something else, we are something else in addition to that.
	It's the old story of the British cartoon in Punch, you know?
	I adore your body.
	And she says, what about my soul?
	It's nothing in Punch Magazine!
	But it's the idea that I am more than my mere flesh and blood.
	Spirits we use, in talking again about soul, but talking about soul as a thinking, willing, and remembering faculty.
	The Soul has three main faculties.
	They're called, by the way, the Trinitarian faculties.
	And one is thinking, to reason, which is so human.
	And one is willing, formally saying, I will do this, I won't do that.
	And then, the faculty of remembering, recalling.
	Because those three are Trinitarian powers, they call them.
	Because they resemble the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
	I'm getting old-fashioned.
	I'm still old-fashioned about the Holy Ghost.
	Quite all right.
	But they're called that.
	And that's the distinction.
	What the demon wants is control of those faculties.
	Well, I have a feeling that the nature of the soul doesn't change as times modernize and computers get faster.
	No, no.
	That's right.
	So they remain the very same.
	I'm going to ask you about something very difficult for me, personally, right now.
	Okay.
	And in a way, I suppose, it relates to the question of suicide, the mass suicides in California, and in a way it doesn't.
	It just relates generally to suicide.
	Yes.
	My wife at times has been gravely ill, Father, with asthma.
	Yes.
	She couldn't breathe, that kind of thing.
	A terrible thing.
	And I have thought and actually said to myself that if she went, so would I. Now, You would go willingly?
	Yes, and she said no, and we had hours of very serious conversation about this, and my wife's view is that we are meant to live out, not to mask with drugs even in the final moments, but to live out our life as it has been dealt to us, or as God or our Creator intends for us to live it out.
	And if that means suffering, then that's what Must be, and we must allow that to occur, and we must not stop it short, or we have sinned.
	She is very godly.
	My wife is a Catholic, Father.
	She is very godly.
	And she finally convinced me of this.
	But I have a duality, a kind of schizoid view on suicide, and it is as follows.
	In other words, I would not, I believe her, and I believe that is correct, that we should play out this hand we're dealt.
	But, but, my political view, Father, Is that of a libertarian?
	In other words, it seems to me that the government, the church aside for a second, the government has no right to make laws that would get between a person and their decision about their own life.
	Hard question.
	Do you have an answer?
	Yes, I have this answer.
	I also share this view.
	I do not believe that human government Have anything to say to the inner decisions of a man or woman.
	Those decisions must be made in the light of their religious education and their religious tradition.
	But the last thing in the world that I want to interfere with that is government.
	They should have nothing to do with it.
	And one of the difficulties, for instance, let's not get into it because it's a wide field of discussion.
	One of the difficulties of the abortion discussion today in America is that it's become politicized.
	It's become a political football.
	It has, yes.
	And that therefore obfuscates the moral issues at stake.
	And it involves vested interests, including money.
	I'm not broaching the whole question of abortion by that.
	I'm just saying that the intrusion of government into my private life is unwarranted.
	And it is a sign of the decadence of our democracy if the government starts entering there.
	And then is this where the church and the state should be separate?
	Of course.
	Totally separate.
	And they should have their own bailiwick, their own territory to deal with.
	And it's the church.
	If the Church cannot persuade people to accept its message, then the Church cannot impose that by government means.
	That's no way... Then why, Father, is the Church trying so desperately to do so?
	Because they have failed to act spiritually, that's why.
	Because they've failed in education.
	And they've failed in the quality of their clergy.
	So the church then itself has become political?
	The church men have.
	The church men.
	I still believe that there is a mystical entity called the church.
	And it is what St.
	Paul calls the body of Christ without spot or wrinkle which he treats as his bride.
	It is served by men.
	Men like me, men like you.
	And women like your wife.
	But they are church people.
	We are church men.
	I think there's a fear of the organization of church men.
	There's the difficulty.
	And they have failed, and therefore they have resorted to other means.
	And it doesn't work, because man is a free animal.
	And so I'm with you there.
	I dislike any intrusion of the government in my private life.
	Alright.
	Or in the private life of an individual.
	Alright.
	Is that a view that if you were to express it now at the Vatican would be frowned upon?
	By some, yes.
	But not by significant people.
	Thank God.
	At that point, the significant people would say, yes, that is the ideal.
	Whether people achieve that is something.
	But I'll tell you this much.
	Christ must abhor.
	He abhors a lot of things, I think, that are bad.
	But one thing he must abhor is politicking clergy.
	A politicking priest.
	He was put to death by them.
	He paid the price for that.
	And politicking clergy, politicking prelates, have been the cause of so much misery for Christians, for Catholics, for believers, that they are abhorrent to me, too.
	Alright, Father, hang tight right there.
	Rest for a little bit.
	We'll be right back to you.
	And when we return, we will ask about three days of darkness.
	Do you remember the question about three days of darkness?
	coming up next from the high desert i'm art bell and this is the independent american cdc radio
	network and
	i'm art bell and this is the independent american cdc radio network
	and and
	Ah!
	I'm so good, good, good.
	Martin.
	Call Art Bell toll free west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	Fr.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Now back to Father Martin.
	And Father Martin, we talked some time ago about three days of darkness.
	You said it would be dangerous to be abroad, outside your home, or even inside your home.
	Somebody is asking, what is the nature of the danger?
	Is it civil, natural, spiritual?
	It's spiritual.
	Spiritual?
	Spiritual, yes.
	That particular prophetic fact, excuse my diction, is based on a private revelation which churchmen have accepted which the Roman churchmen have accepted made at in various places in the year 1846 in La Salette, France and in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 and then at various other places since then
	And it concerns the arrival of a final chastisement, a punishment from God, to purify men and women, and prepare them for entry into Heaven.
	Not rapture-like, according to the normal evangelical theory, but actually the end of the world.
	It's not exactly around the corner, Art.
	At the time when a figure called the Antichrist is abroad, and it's a very complicated issue, the whole thing, but the actual danger itself during those three days of total darkness over the earth, the dimming of the sun completely, and no light, it's a time when the last efforts of the demons to run our lives And to rescue, take souls away from the salvation that Christ has worked out.
	Now this brings up the whole question of the function of angels and demons.
	We must touch on that some other time together.
	And go into it.
	Otherwise, a lot of this talk is unintelligible to a lot of people.
	Not even intelligible.
	But that's the idea of those three days of darkness.
	It's a spiritual darkness.
	It's a spiritual danger in that darkness.
	And will not be pleasant to us.
	From all the accounts we have.
	Is the Antichrist alive now, do you believe?
	Yes, the Antichrist is alive.
	Not active as the Antichrist.
	He cannot die in the normal way.
	And he will come forth at the right time.
	The right time being the time appointed within God's general providence for the human race.
	All right, maybe this following question will help.
	Please ask Father Martin exactly what are demons.
	Are they the spirits of deceased evil men now, prodigies of Satan, or are they created by Satan?
	How are they in effect born, or do they come to be?
	The belief, the Christian, fundamental Christian belief is as follows.
	God decided to create this world, this cosmos of planets and stars, And of Earth in particular.
	And he decided that he would create on that particular planet, this small little planet by the way, he decided to create a race of men and women that would have bodies that were mortal and would have spirits that were eternal and immortal.
	Now, the nature of God in Christian theology is such that He simply doesn't He doesn't himself do things directly.
	He does it through agents, through emissaries.
	He always acts with secondary causes, as they say.
	A primary cause, such as God, acts through secondary causes.
	Now, he decided to confide the direction and the care and the running of this complicated universe of ours, this complicated earth of ours.
	He decided to confide that to a special series of beings He would create, namely angels.
	And they were created too, but they had no bodies, only souls.
	And of course, will and intellect and memory, and imagination of an intellectual kind.
	And they would have care and direction of this human race.
	But there was one outstanding fact about this human race that he let the angels know about.
	Namely that he himself would Allow his son to become a member of the human race.
	And therefore, that the angels would have to adore somebody with a body.
	Who was human.
	Who was mortal.
	And one particular angel, the chief angel, whose name in scripture is given as Lucifer, son of the dawn, said, no.
	I haven't got a mortal body.
	I'm not limited in age.
	Like this.
	God left.
	I will not serve.
	And he revolted.
	And there was, therefore, the war, which God allowed again.
	Because God... There's a mystery about God, Art, and it's why he permits certain things to take place.
	Yes.
	But we should enter into... That's another question.
	Let's not... That's a side issue at the present moment.
	There was a war, and one-third of the angels revolted, and were condemned, of course, because they couldn't defeat God.
	And God's war was Symbolically and metaphorically conducted by a chief angel called Michael, who said to Lucifer, Mikael, who can be like God?
	Because Lucifer said, I'm going to be like God.
	I would not adore.
	I will be like unto God.
	And Michael says, his name means in ancient Semitic and in Hebrew, who is like unto God?
	Mikael.
	Who can be like God?
	So the angels, therefore the bad angels, were therefore expelled from God's presence.
	But they still had a function.
	They were still, by nature, destined to work with men and women.
	And they still are tied to the destiny of this cosmos, and this Earth in particular, this particular planet.
	They're tied to that, by destiny.
	But now their destiny is to try and snatch man's allegiance, woman's allegiance, from Christ, from God.
	And hence we have this entire battle of good and evil.
	Yes, we do.
	And there's no doubt about it, Arthur, between you and me and the Holy Spirit to invoke that saying again, that in this world, as adults, we finally know it's either Christ or Lucifer.
	By the way, I use the word Lucifer, the name Lucifer, much more than Satan.
	Satan is a general term, by the way.
	It means, in Hebrew, it means adversary.
	That's all it means.
	When you do exorcisms, you find out that there are two demons.
	There are many other demons, but there are two demons.
	One who responds to the name of Lucifer.
	And he's the big hunter.
	He's the big, uh, banana.
	And there's another one who's not as big, but very important, called Satan.
	They're distinct demons.
	And they have a very distinct difference.
	And you know their touch.
	Lucifer... His symbol, by the way, is the scorpion.
	It kills.
	The symbol of Satan is the snake.
	Alright.
	Let us then move back to the question that is begged, and that is, why is God so apparently tolerant of these wars, of these evil things?
	If he has this power, why the tolerance?
	This has been studied and argued over since about the 3rd century AD, that's about almost 1,500 years.
	And as far as you can find out from reading all the people who have written about it, and meditated about it, and saints, and theologians, and the churches, the various churches, the idea is this.
	Sure, God could create a race of beings who would never commit sin, who would never revolt, who would be His completely.
	But apparently, God likes certain things above other things.
	He likes to exercise mercy.
	And number two, he wants to be chosen freely.
	But all of that implies ego.
	It does.
	And it implies that God says to a man, look, you can reject me.
	You're free.
	I give you this power of free will.
	You can say, no, I will not serve, like Satan, like Lucifer.
	You can say that.
	On the other hand, you can say, yes, my father in heaven, my savior Jesus.
	My Holy Spirit, I want to be submissive to you.
	I want your love.
	I want your blessing.
	I want to be your daughter.
	I want to be your son.
	So then our God may have ego, may wish to be worshipped in that manner, but we may not, and certainly you as a Catholic priest may not, for that would be a sin.
	That would be a sin on my part.
	The awful truth, A-W-E, not A-W-F-U-L, but A-W-E-full, the awful truth, the awesome truth, is that God owes nothing to nobody.
	And by the way, He has pets.
	There's a French writer, Paul Claudel, who wrote a play about Christopher Columbus, and in it, there's one phrase he uses, and it's choo-choo.
	God has pets.
	By the way, so do I. I have favorites.
	There's certain people I want to be with, other people I don't want to be with.
	Some people I hate, but we all have our choices.
	And we have this trait, and God has that choice too.
	And therefore He makes His choices.
	For instance, in the Gospels, Christ, His favorite was John.
	Peter wasn't His favorite.
	He was His choice to be head of the apostles, but not His favorite.
	John was.
	So God is peculiar in this sense.
	And number two, He has this insistence that I choose him freely.
	I can reject him forever, for eternity.
	But he wants me to say, no, I will willingly adopt what you say.
	I find it difficult.
	I don't like the hand you've dealt me.
	I don't like this polio.
	I don't like this fallen wound.
	I don't like this cancer.
	I don't like my bankruptcy.
	I don't like the infidelity of my husband or the infidelity of my wife.
	I don't like what my children have become.
	I don't like what people have done to me personally, justly and unjustly, but I accept it as from your hands, and I will do my best to observe your will.
	He wants that submission.
	And that, by the way, Art, is the most difficult thing to do.
	And by the way, I think you know, and I know, I know in my own way, and you know in your way, because you've lived life fully, there's nothing so beautiful There's nothing so attractive, there's nothing so sweet as somebody who says to you, look, sure, you know, I like you, you're beautiful, you're good in your own way, an attractor, but I choose you merely because I choose you.
	I want to be with you and not with somebody else.
	That's right.
	And somebody says, I love you, and it's not because you've got a beautiful body or much money in the bank or a rich family or whatever, whatever, but simply, no, I just like you.
	I like you.
	You know, this thing called love, freely chosen and given.
	That is a beautiful thing.
	And whether it's a little dog that does it to you, or a man or a woman, it fits our heart immediately.
	To be the object of free choice.
	By somebody who can walk away from you.
	So love is the most powerful thing for us?
	Ah, it's the most powerful thing.
	That's why I must confess to you, Art, that after all the exorcisms and all the muck and the dirt and everything else, The thing that demons abhor is almost a cliché for us.
	True human love.
	They indulge in the most terrible and contemptuous language to show their smirking contempt and despisement of it.
	Every form of it.
	It's psychophysical and it's mental form.
	Everything.
	Father, every time, and there are many tragedies that occur, I report on those that talk of people killing people, suicides, children tossing children out of windows, and all that.
	Every time that happens, I get a fax from a fellow named Mark, who declares himself to be an atheist, and he will inevitably say, if God is so great and so powerful, why in the world would he allow Hitler, for example, to murder over 6 million innocent people, and you just answered that question, didn't you?
	Yes, I did.
	And the point is, it's God's choice.
	I wouldn't have chosen it.
	Chosen it?
	I would not.
	But this is God's choice.
	And He is supreme.
	You know, there's one scene in the death of Christ, in the life and death of Christ, when He was on His way to being crucified, and crucifixion was a nasty thing.
	But he met some women from Jerusalem along the way that were crying because they knew he had cured their children, and consoled them, and spoken the words of wisdom.
	And he said, listen, don't cry for me.
	I'm the Greenwood.
	You're the Dry.
	If they do this to me, what are they going to do to you?
	It's a frightening thing for the gentle Christ to say that.
	And it's the truth.
	There are things that happen.
	We deplore them.
	I deplore the whole Shoah, the Holocaust.
	I deplore that the little boy, Dayton Bennett, who was just beaten and starved by his mother progressively until finally she went to the hospital with a dead body.
	Now she's up, she's being called in, accused allegedly of murder.
	It does seem to be that.
	Why did God allow that?
	And you know what a priest like me has to do in a case like that?
	What?
	I say to Christ, Please unite Dayton's, and I did, Dayton's sufferings with your sufferings to save souls.
	All right, Father, hold it right there.
	I want to remind everybody out there to get a copy of this program.
	You can call 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	It will be a five-hour program.
	I'm Art Bell.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	It will be a five-hour program.
	I'm Art Bell.
	This is CBC.
	Art Bell is Taking calls on the wildcard line.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1295. That's 702-727-1295. First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1292.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am, and we really are going to begin taking your calls here in a moment for the exorcist, Father Malachi Martin.
	There's really nobody else that I know of like him anywhere.
	Again, this is going to be a five-hour program, so to order it, if you want to order it, please don't send me a fax, please don't send me email.
	I get gazillions.
	Please just write down the number.
	It's 1-800-917-4278.
	That's a good 24 hours a day.
	1-800-917-4278.
	Back now to Father Malachi Martin.
	Father, I have a very specific question for you.
	I suppose it's going to end up sounding like a book plug, but I've written a book that's going to be coming out Monday.
	Oh, lovely.
	Tell me the name of it.
	It's called The Quickening.
	A quickening.
	Tell me about it.
	A quickening.
	All right.
	I shall.
	Here we go.
	This is sort of a culmination.
	It's something that poured out of me or had to come out of me.
	I've been a talk show host doing this radio show in its present incarnation for about 13 years, and I have found that in every single human area of endeavor, socially, economically, politically, the weather, Earth changes, our ecology, which is going absolutely crackers.
	In every area of human endeavor, things are moving faster exponentially.
	And I began to talk about it on the radio, and finally I gave it a name, and I called it the quickening.
	And everybody was asking me, well, what do you mean, what do you mean the quickening?
	And I've answered it a million times.
	Finally, I sat down, and I wrote a book, Father.
	I'm just a talk show host.
	I documented what I mean by the quickening, I think, rather well in this book that's coming out.
	Don't call yet, folks.
	It's not here yet.
	And by the way, who's the publisher?
	Paper Chase Press.
	Paper Chase Press.
	I'll get you a copy.
	No, I don't.
	I want to buy it.
	No, no, no, no, no!
	I believe in buying books for people I love and know.
	Tell me, have you got an ISBN number for it?
	I don't want to give out...
	Father, I'll give it to you privately.
	I don't want to give it out in any numbers tonight.
	Anyway, my point for saying all this is that that poured out of me.
	It's like I had to do it.
	I know.
	I know the feeling.
	And so something is coming.
	I don't know what it is or when it'll be here, but I know that we're beginning to race toward it at a never faster rate.
	And I think it might be spiritual.
	You're a prophet in your own right and without knowing it, Art.
	You are, really, because I've shared that view long before I even got to know you at all, and I'm convinced of it from the evidence emerging from exorcisms and from what the spirits are telling us, demoniacal though they may be.
	Well, again, it said, no man shall know the time, but I've got this feeling that it's coming nigh.
	I mean, it is coming nigh.
	There's no doubt about that.
	The quickening.
	I'm going to not steal, but adopt your phrase immediately.
	We're in the quick pick.
	There's no doubt about that.
	All right, Father, I would like to open the lines and let you talk to some folks out there.
	Okay, whatever you choose.
	All right, let us do some of that, then.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi, Father, this is Suzanne calling you.
	I was really interested.
	I tried to talk to the priest in my parish about this.
	And I was interested in your thoughts and your teachings about the Scripture's warnings of false prophets.
	Yes.
	And also, I'm noticing a number of people, particularly on television, and they seem to be, like, trying, or they're communicating with accuracy, scary enough, with dead spirits, particularly people who've lost relatives.
	And I wanted to know what you thought about that.
	All right.
	What is that, Father?
	Well, I'll tell you.
	Here's the difficulty, my friend.
	I want to explain three levels to you.
	Three levels of existence.
	Listen, I'm sitting at a table here, I have a telephone in my hand, and Art is sitting where he's sitting, and this lady is sitting where she's sitting, or lying in bed, or whatever it is, and we have the physical all around us, the dimensional, you know what I mean?
	The world, the earth, the material beings.
	Sure.
	That's nature.
	And our bodies do.
	Now there's a thing called supernatural, and it is God's existence.
	It is a level of existence above ours to which we have been invited.
	There is then, and the angels are on that, and God is on that, and our beloved ones reached heaven are on that level.
	In between there is what we know as the Middle Plateau.
	What is the Middle Plateau?
	The Middle Plateau is a region of existence marked by the following.
	Those on it Exercise preternatural, not supernatural, preternatural powers.
	Like telekinesis.
	Remote viewing.
	Remote viewing.
	Channeling.
	Some of them have teleport.
	They actually can transfer themselves bodily.
	Now, these powers are remnant.
	Those who have them.
	Like, for instance, Edmund Cayce.
	He's an outstanding example of one power, that is, simply medical knowledge that he didn't get from any study at a university.
	He had it with a gift, or the savants we have.
	But these gifts, these preternatural gifts, now are exercised only by demons, and those with whom demons communicate, except But there are people like an Edmund Casey, there are people I have known personally, who have what we call psychic gifts of perception.
	They will know at a distance.
	I have a sister, for instance, who will always know if I'm ill.
	But not because I write her a letter.
	There is this connection between her and me.
	She just knows?
	She just knows.
	And mothers have it sometimes for their children, and fathers for their wives, and people are related by blood.
	But there are further gifts, though.
	There are other gifts.
	Telekinesis.
	And there's also some people have participation in the gifts, which they can develop, unfortunately, of affecting physically as it is.
	And we sometimes refer to that as a curse.
	So, this middle area is neither good nor evil, but perhaps has most things both?
	Yes, it is.
	It's utilized by the demons.
	And if I can be attracted to that plateau and exercise those gifts, if I have some of them, and a lot of us have remnants of these in our beings, I can be deceived.
	I can be taken over.
	That's why channeling and remote viewing is so dangerous.
	Or things like the Ouija Board or Transcendental Meditation.
	Why?
	Because you open up your mind and soul You say, come in, whoever you are, come in and talk to me.
	Yeah, and when you've got an open door, you never know who might walk through.
	You don't know.
	All right, get a little away from the phone for me.
	Yeah, sure.
	And here we go again.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Yes, sir.
	Hi, Reverend Father Martin and Mr. Art Bell.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, I wish I could send a nice continental breakfast over there.
	I bet the sun was going to be coming up over the East River.
	I would be pleased to have continental breakfast just right now.
	Well, Reverend Martin, your allegiance to Jesus Christ is inspiring, and I hope I'm not being objectionable to your years of learning and study, or unaware of your help to those in need, sir.
	This has to do with the cunning and sometimes extremely subtle influence of Lucifer, Satan.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, sir.
	Now, dear sir, I have a question, perhaps rhetorical, Yep.
	Concerning the Vatican's treaty with Benito Mussolini in 1929 that was negotiated with representatives of the Vatican.
	That's right.
	Right.
	By terms of this Lateran treaty, did I pronounce that right?
	You did absolutely correctly so far.
	Okay, follow me here.
	The Roman Catholic Church was made the state religion in Italy.
	Mm-hmm.
	Then comes World War II, where Mussolini cozied up with the Nazis and eventually the Allied forces fought right on the Italian boot or soil.
	Why didn't the Pope, or should I say the Vatican, put a stop to this disastrous letting of blood of our own men and women?
	Alright, good question.
	Okay, doesn't this point out to us the fact That Lucifer can imbue his demonic influence right to the top of even our ecclesiastic leaders of time.
	Sounds like you may have, uh, red windswept house.
	And the answer is absolutely yes.
	You're right.
	Lucifer can and does.
	And, uh, I said to Art at an earlier exchange, uh, this morning, uh, that politicking prelude of any kind are abhorrent to God and have nothing really to do with the salvation of Jesus.
	I agree with you, sir.
	Father, I've got an article here entitled, Two Eminent Churchmen Agree, that there actually is, this is a shocker to a lot of people, that there are satanic practices going on at the Vatican.
	Could that be true?
	You want to say that?
	If I was a lawyer and you were on the witness chair, I'd say, would you say it?
	It's out loud.
	Yes, it is.
	Now, when we say in the Vatican, it's at a certain level.
	And there's no doubt about it that there have been and still are practices that are formally venerating Lucifer, the prince of this world.
	There's no doubt about that.
	The Vatican itself has about eight resident exorcists.
	And it uses those both there and in the two other cities that are devil-ridden in Italy, Milano and Torino.
	Milano and Turin.
	But there's no doubt about it that satanic or Luciferian practices, because it's really of the prince that his name is Lucifer.
	It's really of the prince that these, in veneration of him, I'll tell you what I think, Art.
	actions have taken place and do take place. So, Father, is it because this is such a holy
	place that it makes it a number one target for Lucifer, or is it that there is a disease
	or a cancer within the Vatican makes it sound like Watergate?
	I'll tell you what I think, it is that amongst Luciferian organizations there is a
	prophecy that if they can invade the Citadel, and that's their name for the Vatican, they
	will have power for a thousand years.
	How close are they?
	Very close.
	Very close.
	I've heard about that for a thousand years.
	I've heard about that for a thousand years.
	Frighteningly close.
	And only, I'll tell you quite honestly, to be quite frank with you, Only Christ can save this organization.
	I can save the church, because the organization is shot, as far as I'm concerned.
	And I'm a very faithful Roman Catholic priest.
	But I know we're in, as I said before, to make it easy to hear it, we're in deep doo-doo.
	Well, Father, when you say this kind of thing, I can only imagine how it resonates at the Vatican.
	Well, they get very itchy and antsy about it, of course.
	Itchy and antsy?
	And I get all sorts of complaints and statements, but when it comes down to brass tacks across the table, they say, yeah, you're right, we are in trouble.
	We are in trouble.
	And we don't know what to do.
	And only Christ Himself, and the Blessed Virgin, His Mother, who has a function in all this, can save the organization of the Holy Roman Catholic Church itself.
	The Church itself is, again, composed of people in a state of grace.
	And that's the bride of Christ, the mystical body.
	But the organization is in trouble.
	Deep trouble.
	It makes me feel so powerless to hear that.
	Well, no, it shouldn't.
	I sympathize.
	I know.
	I empathize with you.
	But the point of this is that, you know what's happening, really?
	The quickening.
	And the quickening is the process is this, that finally we're being driven To turn to Christ and say, save us!
	You are our God!
	You are our Saviour!
	Show us what we do!
	Solve our problems!
	Solve our immigration problems!
	Solve our refugee problems!
	Solve our population problems!
	Solve our nuclear missile problems!
	Solve our inherent hatred of each other!
	Solve our problems because we will commit global suicide if you don't come and save us!
	I think there's going to be a change.
	There's going to be a big event.
	I don't know when, I don't know what, and I don't know from where.
	I wish I could say I did.
	I think it's a quickening and I think that it's not the end of the world, father, but
	I think there's going to be a change, there's going to be a big event, I don't know when,
	I don't know what, and I don't know from where.
	I wish I could say I did.
	I just know it's coming.
	Yeah, it is coming.
	I think that you shortly will get some great light on that, Art.
	Especially if you notice events taking place in Rome about a week or ten days from now.
	I'll watch carefully.
	I think that something will take place.
	I don't know.
	I'm not a prophet.
	A week or ten days.
	That's a short call.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Father Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi, superb program this evening, Art.
	Thank you.
	Father Martin?
	Sir?
	Are you familiar with the book of Enoch?
	It was translated by the Archbishop of Castile, Richard Lawrence.
	Yes, I am.
	Do you think it's authentic?
	I think it's authentic, but it doesn't belong to the canon of the Bible.
	Do you understand what I'm talking about?
	Right.
	I think it's authentic, all right, but the Church never numbered it amongst its special Bible texts.
	I think there's reasons why.
	Obvious magnitude.
	It's quite an outstanding book.
	Yes, it is.
	And it goes into the fallen angel, what had actually occurred.
	That's right.
	During the Flood and before the Flood.
	That's right.
	The Church has adopted all that doctrine, you know.
	And the angel Azazel.
	Azazel.
	Yes.
	In the newly released transcripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it goes into How this particular angel basically corrupted all species.
	The angel misgenated with them.
	That's right.
	Now would that not be an answer for things like dinosaurs?
	That's right.
	Or something like that?
	It does.
	It answers many questions that people are still scratching their heads over.
	In the evolution of man.
	All right, that'll have to do it.
	Caller, thank you very much.
	Father, hold on.
	We'll be right back from the high desert.
	You're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
	I'm Art Bell.
	And once again, to get a copy of this program, you call 1-800-917-4278.
	And you can get it at the address shown on the screen.
	Thank you for watching.
	As the skies are blue, the clouds are white, the bright blessed day, the dark sacred night, And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
	Call Art Bell toll free, west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	I'm David Rowe.
	Every day I love you.
	I hear you breathing.
	Father Malachi Martin is my guest.
	and good morning everybody father malachite martin is my guest
	and he'll be back in a moment well alright um... uh... here we go once again uh...
	Father Martin is my guest.
	Father?
	Yes.
	Ah, you're still there holding up, all right.
	Of course, my goodness.
	This is a lovely morning.
	It is a pretty morning.
	It's a lovely morning.
	All right, off we go to the races, then.
	On the first time color line, you're on the air with Father Martin.
	Hi.
	Yes, it's an honor to be talking to both of you, Father and Art.
	Thank you.
	Thank you very much.
	One of my questions is, what is the best thing we can do to protect our family from the devil?
	And the other one would be, I'm in a Catholic faith and it says there's only one baptism for the forgiveness of the sins.
	Yes.
	But then my brother, he's in something else, he's born again, where they're baptized twice.
	Yes.
	What is the difference?
	There's no difference as far as God is concerned.
	Once you're baptized, you're baptized.
	And if you're baptized, it's got rid of any original sin in you, and you are a child of God.
	And you belong to Christ, and you can benefit from His salvation.
	The second baptism is adding cream to the cake.
	But it doesn't mean that you get... It may mean, it may mean that you get an increase of grace, but it does not mean that you are baptized all over again.
	Once baptism takes place, you're baptized.
	And once is enough.
	Father, he asked about also how he could protect his family from evil.
	It's a big question.
	Yes, it is.
	Chief, I'll tell you something else.
	I'm sure you can echo this.
	I had a very good father and mother.
	There were nine children, by the way.
	And, of course, they thought about getting some of it taught by the nuns and taught by the fathers and taught by the teachers in school in Ireland.
	This was in rural Ireland in the 1920s and 30s.
	OK.
	They taught formal religion, but all I really learned about virtual religion, I learned from watching my father and mother.
	I didn't know I was watching.
	I didn't know I was learning, but I was learning.
	Sure.
	I learned what anger was, what patience was, what compassion was, what sorrow was, what purity was, what good behavior was, what politeness was, what humanness was.
	I imitated everything I saw.
	And that's where I really learnt it.
	So, first thing is the example.
	The example you give your children.
	And number two, there is formal instruction.
	I was shocked a few weeks ago, and I'm about to say mass, in Long Island, and before mass, as I was putting on my vestments, several people came up and said, when I hear their confession, which I did, and some of them were young, 18, teenagers, 18-year-olds, and the old people, there was no difficulty.
	You give them a penance, they say the prayers, they make an act of confession, The young people didn't know the after confession, didn't know how to say I'm sorry to God, and didn't know that they couldn't recite the Hail Mary or the Our Father.
	Now tell me.
	Come on.
	You know, if you don't instruct people in prayer, how are they going to pray?
	So, it's instruction, but it's primarily example.
	And then there's one more thing, Art, which we have lost completely.
	The consciousness of what we can do as parents.
	A father or a mother Has, according to Christian tradition, and Catholic tradition, has the power of giving a blessing to their children.
	Literally, a blessing.
	It's not quite the blessing a priest gives, but it's more powerful because it's the blessing of a father, or a mother.
	And how do you do?
	You make the sign of the cross on the forehead with your thumb, and say, I bless you.
	I give you my blessing as your mother.
	I give you my blessing as your father.
	And on top of all that, there is this privilege of parents, that Christian parents, that they can ask God for special favors for their children, and God will grant it to a parent when he won't grant it to other people.
	Why?
	Because of the parent's position.
	That's really something.
	Yeah, it is, but we've lost that whole theology.
	It's been wiped out by our sort of garbage today.
	But that's Christian tradition.
	That's how you guard these children.
	I'm just speechless now all of a sudden.
	I've been waiting, but these are two of my favorite men in the world.
	You're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi, where are you please?
	I'm in Spokane.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Good morning to you.
	I'm just speechless now.
	All of a sudden I've been waiting, but just two of my favorite men in the world.
	Neither of you is available.
	But I was curious to know if you might comment any further on, I think it was Archbishop
	Oh, Milingo.
	Emmanuel Milingo.
	He's an African Bishop, and he's been engaged at the present moment in a verbal dispute with people in the Vatican, because Milingo is a very honest man, and he calls the stage Sometimes he calls it a bloody shovel, but that's just his manner.
	He's almost Irish in that sense, although he's a native African.
	And he objects to something I referred to a short while ago, and one of our speakers, one of our people, one of our callers referred to, namely the practice of Satanism or Luciferianism amongst Vatican people.
	And there's no doubt about it.
	It does.
	And Milingo has emphasized this.
	Because he's one up against it.
	Because the behavior of Vatican Church men in Africa and in Rwanda has not been exemplary.
	And Milingo is attacking that.
	He's a very honest man, man.
	Okay.
	Also, I was wondering if... Now, I'm kind of a... Well, a left Catholic, I guess.
	I'm also curious to know, and I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to this, but something to do with a secret that... Something to do with Fatima and the secret... Secret debt?
	I'm sorry, what?
	Did you say a secret debt?
	Oh, no!
	No, um, the secret that was supposed to be revealed... Oh, oh, oh, the Fatima secret.
	Yes.
	Yes, the Fatima secret is something that was written down by the person who received this secret information back in the 19...
	1930s and the 20s.
	And the person who wrote it down is still alive.
	Her name is Lucia, and she's a nun in Spain, in Coimbra.
	She's a Carmelite nun.
	And it's called The Pope's Secret, and it was sent over to the Pope, and according to the instructions that Lucia got, Sister Lucia got from the Blessed Virgin Mary, she says and claims, and we all accept it, It was the Pope of 1960 who was supposed to reveal the secret and follow out the instructions, do what it said.
	The Pope of 1960 was the good Pope John XXIII.
	He refused to do that.
	He refused to obey Our Lady.
	He refused the Mandate of Heaven.
	He refused to publish the secret, and he refused to do what it said.
	And consequently, consequently, Uh, we're in trouble.
	That's roughly the third secret.
	Now, what's the third secret?
	It's rather a dire document, uh, ma'am.
	It's not pleasant reading at all.
	Uh, I'm under oath not to reveal the actual details of it because I read it.
	You read it?
	I read it.
	I can't break my oath in that matter, but it is not pleasant reading at all.
	Does this involve a chastisement?
	Yes.
	Several.
	All right, there... I'm not going to name the specific instance, Father.
	Yes.
	But you and I once talked of something that you said must not be spoken of.
	That's right.
	And you just now referred to another thing that must not be spoken of.
	Are there many things, secrets, or things that you know of the type you and I talk about, and others, that just simply may not be discussed?
	That's right.
	There are not a plethora, not a multitude, but certainly you can make a list of them.
	All right, we'll leave it right there and the audience can read where they want to.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Hello Mr. Bell, Father Martin.
	Hello there.
	What's on your mind?
	One thing, making a long story short, I've had a deep Inner knowledge, much like you gentlemen have about certain things.
	Yes.
	That the Antichrist would rise up through the Catholic Church.
	Yes.
	And the whole purpose of it is to turn over the Church to Lucifer.
	Yes.
	Also that the Antichrist may not necessarily be male.
	Uh-huh.
	But may be female.
	Uh-huh.
	In addition, I've had a number of what you would call preternatural experiences most of my life.
	And I discovered when I was 16 that under certain conditions, I seemed to be able to control the weather.
	Uh-huh.
	And I wonder, I mean, why does the church always say that things that, you know, powers like this, they always come from the devil?
	Well, never.
	They come from God.
	No, it's not so much that properly instructed judgment would not say that to you, sir.
	What they would say is that the use of it must be governed by the godly principles.
	You can have a gift like Edmund Cayce had a gift.
	I know people with extraordinary gifts of what we call second sight.
	And they really have.
	I know, for instance, one person who can cure certain diseases by the touch.
	And they keep it very carefully hidden from people.
	They don't want to be mobbed.
	They don't want to make money off it.
	Yes.
	But they utilize the gift according to the will of God.
	I know other people with gifts, preternatural, we call them preternatural gifts, and they use them to abuse.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes, oh yes, Father.
	So I think there's a question of what use you make of them, and are you submissive to God?
	Father, how will we know How will you know if the church is literally taken over and that thousand years begins?
	How will we know?
	We will know by this a series of facts which amount to the following.
	That the basic beliefs of Christianity are played down to ground zero and do not matter any longer in the normal life of society and of nations.
	For those who are supposed to be the custodians, supposed to be the administrators of the word, and distributors of His grace, for they have stopped all that and have taken to completely secular terms.
	We'll know it by that.
	And rather overnight art, as far as I can see, the quickening, such a well-chosen word, it suddenly will dawn on people, hey, hey, this thing has gone completely awry.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, yes.
	So, we will know.
	We will, because, you see, there's this abiding thing.
	If the grace of Jesus, our Lord, is with us, He will tell us.
	He won't use words.
	We will know in our souls.
	We will know.
	I believe worldwide statistics show, Father, that attendance at traditional church service has dropped dramatically.
	However... Dramatically.
	However, attendance at some of the more radical belief churches has gone up.
	Yes, it has.
	It has.
	There's an ingathering of people collecting together when they find themselves believing the same thing against the current secularism, the current hedonism, the current corruption.
	And they're listening in my own churchyard, in the Roman Catholic Organization.
	We now have the spectacle in this country of the underground church.
	The underground church?
	Yeah!
	What is that, Father?
	Bishops, priests, chapels, nuns, schools that do not come within the scope of the normal diocese.
	All out of the country.
	By the way, I often say it, but it's true.
	If the American bishops, all 280 of them, knew how far the underground church had gone, they would have diarrhea.
	Well, I'm having it just hearing that.
	Don't!
	Don't!
	It's a consoling fact.
	These are good people who decided that, like Mary Magdalene, they had taken away the Body of the Lord and they couldn't find it.
	And they wanted a valid priest to say valid Masses and administer valid Sacraments.
	and they don't want some person organizing them with enneagrams or promoting remote viewing in their sermons
	or advocating completely pornographic sex ed for their children in schools
	somebody said no we won't do that we'll have our own homeschooling we'll have our own chapels so are we close to a day then
	when everything is upside down and inside out including including the church
	That's the quick thing.
	Church organization, yes.
	I always make that distinction, Art, because there's this firm belief amongst Christians that the body of Christ, composed of those in His grace, in the grace of Jesus, Whether they're in heaven, or in purgatory, or on earth, or in a state of grace, that they form His Church, as St.
	Paul calls it, His Bride, without spot or wrinkle.
	Then there is the organization, the visible organization, supposed to incarnate that.
	At the present moment, that organization is going down, to our regret.
	It's going down.
	Now, there are lots of good people in it, but as an organization, it's going down.
	It's like a wood with a forest dying out, with fresh young saplings.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hello.
	Hi, this is Jack in Seattle.
	It's good to talk to you, Father Martin.
	I happen to be a member of a different faith, but I've always been fascinated when you've been on the show.
	My question is, I'm 40 years old and there's been so much talk, even in my own faith, of this being the last days and the second coming being just around the corner.
	I find I have a really hard time preparing For the future, when I think about things like retirement, I think that the world is not going to be the same when it's time for me to retire.
	I have a hard time.
	I want to prepare spiritually, but when I think about preparing financially in the way that most people do, it's hard for me.
	Do you think it's really that close?
	No.
	I'll tell you what I do think, sir, honestly.
	And you're asking for my personal opinion, but I'll also give you what normal church adoption would be.
	For instance, you will know if it's the second coming because the Antichrist will have come.
	And you will know the Antichrist has come by two things.
	Chief things.
	First of all, he will be a human figure.
	And secondly, he can solve all our problems.
	He will have human wisdom.
	And thirdly, the last note, which is the most important, we will adore him as God.
	At least, a lot of people will.
	And he will accept to be adored as God.
	Once that happens, you know the Antichrist has come.
	And he's in power.
	And he's solving our problems.
	Not in a godly way, but solving them.
	And after that then comes the second coming.
	Christ will come and blow him away with the breath of his mouth.
	So, sorry.
	That's one thing that also makes me wonder then, could it possibly be Lucifer that makes me think that I don't want to be prepared?
	Yes, of course it is.
	It's a temptation.
	But I'll tell you, the fact that you even talk about it means that Christ is speaking in your heart.
	I give you the grace.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes.
	And of course, listen, you and I, and I'm sure Art would agree, it's impossible for us to know what's happening financially, because we don't know how the finances of the world are going.
	They seem to be marvelous, and then suddenly, you know, Mr. Greenspan speaks, and difficulties, and we don't know what the money is going to be like.
	There's a quickening also, economically, because now we're globalized and everything.
	Oh yes.
	So there's a great uncertainty, and we have a great I'm sure about it.
	But this is still God's world.
	We have now entered a time, economically, when literally trillions of dollars electronically flash across the world by satellite every night as we sleep, as we wake.
	It's incredible what's going on.
	You said, Father, the Antichrist is alive now.
	Yes, he is.
	Mortally, as a mortal.
	Yes.
	Well, now, that would indicate to me that In our lifetimes, the Antichrist will mature and will begin his reign.
	Well, I'll tell you.
	Don't ask me to tell you why I say this and why I speak like this, but not necessarily.
	There has to be a sudden preparation for his debut, for his appearance.
	It must come to the point that we are humanly Without a solution of some grave problem that has arisen, which threatens to wipe us all out, which threatens to liquidate human society as we have known it for 2,000 years, and liquidate all of our culture.
	We have very little of it left, but we still have a good substantial part of our civilization still standing.
	Some crisis that would make us welcome him.
	Yes.
	We say, my God, you are our savior.
	You are God.
	You must be God.
	Yes, indeed.
	Indeed.
	I don't know what to say about that, except that I guess I'm concerned that it will occur in our lifetimes.
	I wish I could say yea or nay to that, Art.
	I can't.
	Right.
	I can't.
	And no man shall know.
	All right, Father.
	Stand by.
	We'll get right back to you.
	All right, everybody.
	Again, I'll say it one more time, because I'm getting all kinds of faxes about this.
	Please, don't fax me.
	I just can't return them.
	The number to get a copy of this program is 1- 800-917-4278.
	800-917-4278.
	If busy, keep trying throughout the weekend.
	If not, you can always call the number on your screen.
	If you have any questions, please contact us at info.census.gov.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	Good morning, everybody.
	First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am. Good morning everybody.
	My guest is Father Malachi Martin.
	And we'll get back to him in a moment.
	you All right, back now to Father Malachi Martin in Manhattan, where I suspect the sun is beginning to slowly announce itself.
	Yes, it's already opening up everything in our hearts.
	It's so beautiful.
	Yes, it is beautiful.
	It's nice to see it come up every day.
	It really is lovely.
	It's reassuring.
	Yes, it's so reassuring.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art.
	Yes, sir.
	My name is Jason.
	I'm calling from KEX Country, Portland, Oregon.
	Yes, sir.
	I have a question for Father Martin.
	Yes, Jason.
	First of all, let me tell you, I am a Catholic, and hopefully if everything goes right, I'll be entering seminary in the fall.
	Which is what seminary?
	Mount Angel.
	Yeah.
	The question is, I find today a lot of people really don't think that there is truly a tangible evil out there.
	And do you think it's just become, people become too desensitized?
	Oh yes.
	Besides, this is a very good PR job by Lucifer.
	I mean, the best spy is somebody you don't know is a spy.
	The best enemy in society is the one you don't know is the enemy.
	Right.
	And the PR job about the devil.
	You see, Jason, a lot of people depict the devil as an old guy with sloven hoops and with yellow eyes and a filthy body and his dirty books under his arm.
	And it's not that at all.
	He's a very, very urbane and polished gentleman, if you want to call him a gentleman.
	And he inserts himself very subtly and with skill and never shocking.
	Into your soul and your heart.
	People have lost that, they'll have to get it back.
	Father Martin, where can I write to you?
	Following address, take it.
	217 East 66th Street, New York, New York, 10021.
	Give it again, Father.
	Give it again, Father.
	It's 217 East 66th Street, New York, New York 10021.
	To what?
	Did you get that caller?
	Yes, I did.
	Thank you very much, Eric.
	Alright, thank you.
	Take care.
	Any advice for young men who would be headed to the seminary?
	Yes.
	Pick your seminary very carefully.
	Not all seminaries are good.
	Not all seminaries are even Christian.
	And not all Catholic seminaries are Catholic.
	Wow.
	How... How... You go and talk to them.
	You go and talk to them.
	You go Are they saying what they should say?
	Are they giving traditional doctrines?
	Or are they inventing things?
	And then when you go for your... Usually in the seminaries today, Art, you won't believe this.
	I know you won't, with your tender soul.
	But in most seminaries today, that I know of, in this area and elsewhere, you have three committees to face.
	First of all, there's the academic committee, wants to find out have you got your exams, you know, are you capable of doing the rest of the studies, philosophy and theology, in preparation for priesthood.
	Number two, then you have the... and then you find out about your health.
	You know, are you capable of sustaining the pressures, normally good health.
	And thirdly, then there's the spiritual committee, usually headed by a nun.
	A nun?
	A nun, yeah.
	And with a degree in something.
	And they... if they start asking you, you, the prospective seminarian, If they want to know what you think about homosexuality, and if you want to get into the seminary and they ask you that question, don't say you disapprove of it.
	Because then they'll dismiss you as pastorally insensitive.
	There's a political correctness within seminaries?
	Absolutely.
	That's the ruination of many good seminaries.
	That's the difficulty.
	I tell you, I've told you before, the organization is in trouble.
	It's in trouble.
	It must be if it's yielded that far.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Thank you, Mr. Cabral.
	Where are you, sir?
	This is Robert in the San Joaquin Valley.
	Okay, Robert, speak up good and loud for us.
	All right, sir.
	Father, my Robert, I'm listening.
	It's an extreme honor and a great joy to speak to you, sir.
	Thank you very much.
	It's very nice of you.
	It's very encouraging for a poor old guy like me.
	Mr. Bell, if you will allow me, I've got three important questions I'd like to ask.
	Yes.
	First of all, Father, I've listened to Mr. Bell for a long time.
	Yes.
	And he goes through a great deal of responsibility.
	He is such a good heart.
	That's right.
	And if there can be a private consultation with you in our I wish that for he and Mrs. Bell, because he has so many battles to fight.
	I know he has.
	I know he has.
	And he's on my short list of people to be prayed for, and he's number one on this list.
	So many of us pray for his well-being.
	Thank you.
	Secondly, I had the extreme honor, as the soldier of God, I met Mother Teresa.
	When she came, if you recall, to the United Nations to accept the Nobel Peace Prize.
	She asked if they would please melt it down for the precious metals to give to the poor.
	And if people want to look to see what good is on earth, she is such a beloved child of God.
	She does represent the good.
	She sure does.
	And the third one, sir, for all to know, I'm aware, but just for them to hear, can you please expand and tell them why Lucifer could never win over God?
	Because, first of all, he is now a prisoner of God.
	Secondly, he only knows what God allows him to know.
	And thirdly, he only does what God allows him to do.
	So then, Lucifer is a tool of God?
	Yep!
	Listen, when you have a moment, Art, open the book of Job.
	The first page, first chapter.
	God is talking with his children.
	And Lucifer, Satan, as it's called there, passes by.
	And God says, how goes it?
	He says, fine.
	And Satan says, well, you know, there's your servant Job.
	Oh, he serves you well, because he's got beefs and cattle and pigs and farms and children and he's prosperous.
	But you let me just touch him and I'll show you how faithfully, faithless he will be.
	And God says, okay, he's yours if you can take him.
	By the way, a lot of people don't know it.
	The Book of Job is a play.
	It was written as a play.
	In South Semitic language.
	And Job's name, Job, the name itself, means God loves him.
	Yaab, as they say in South Semitic.
	Now, that's the way God uses him.
	Does God use him as a tool?
	Yes, he does.
	He does.
	He does.
	Because that's God's peculiar weapon.
	He wanted a world in which he could exercise mercy, and which he would be loved for himself, freely, by people who weren't robots, and weren't slaves.
	All right, here's something I want to ask you.
	I've always wanted to ask a priest this, and since here you are, I'm going to ask.
	I think it relates to the life of People like yourself, and it relates certainly to the lives of young women who are in Catholic schools.
	There's a joke that goes around that there is no young lady wilder than a young Catholic lady fresh out of Catholic school or even still in Catholic school.
	It's this very strict religious life.
	And of course, young people rebel, even older people rebel.
	Of course, but young people above all, there's a period of rebellion.
	Above all, yes, sir.
	So, you know, there's probably some substance to that, and I wonder how the church looks at that.
	In other words, do they worry that they create a temptation by... Yes, by suppression.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, they do.
	And the wiser among them are always seeking an answer to that.
	They haven't yet found it, by the way.
	They haven't yet found the answer to that.
	The VM may be at the middle of the way between repression and training.
	It's very difficult.
	There are one or two colleges here in the United States that seem to be sitting very near the Golden Mean in that case.
	There's a place in Ojai, California, and there's a place in Connecticut called Magdalen College, and they both seem to be very near that middle ground where there's not repression, There is training.
	Yes.
	And that's the beautiful thing.
	But there's no doubt about it.
	That figure of the wild Catholic girl, when she gets out of the convent, you know,
	it's almost a caricature, but it's true.
	Uh-huh, I thought so.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Arthur.
	Good morning, Malachi.
	Good morning, how are you?
	Hi, my name is Bill.
	I'm calling from West Hartford, Connecticut.
	Okay, Bill?
	I have two questions for you, Malachi.
	First, I have to say, I am an atheist and proud of it.
	A logical, rational, scientific-minded atheist.
	Question number one is, Let me perform a question and then I have a second question.
	I'll ask them both at the same time.
	Question number one, when you said, if I can paraphrase you, something like that God does not want people to be robots, but to with free will accept him or reject him, free will to be good or be bad, etc.
	That sounds to me like a good rationalization for someone who believes in, and of course, as you do, in a god and a devil, etc., etc.
	In other words, what I'm trying to say, and I'll form a question, question number one, isn't that a rationalized way of saying what I would say as a non-believing atheist, that it's just a natural world where there is good and evil, people are good, people are evil, some are good, some are evil, some are in between?
	That's question number one.
	So, in other words, When you say that God gave us free will to be good or bad, it's taking the natural world as I see it as an atheist, and trying to bend it into your theology.
	You know, you're playing it away with your theology.
	All right, all right.
	Hold up for number one.
	The answer to number one is this.
	We say that, not because we're interpreting, but because this is the doctrine of Jesus.
	This is what he taught, and we follow his revelation.
	You can choose not to, and that's fine and dandy.
	I'll defend your right to not follow him.
	Thank you.
	And not be persecuted for it.
	Thank you.
	We follow, we give that interpretation because that was the interpretation Jesus gave.
	Okay, I would say, I'll give you question number two in one second.
	I would just say that theology, what Jesus said, came from human beings.
	No, no, no, no.
	We don't say it comes from human beings.
	It comes from the Holy Spirit.
	Well, I would say that it was a person or people that wrote it, I guess.
	Okay, okay, alright.
	You have a right to say that, but you're wrong.
	But, ah, it doesn't matter.
	I would say those human beings wrote it, but human beings made it up to begin with.
	Yes, huh?
	Number two, this is a very interesting argument, especially if you are both of you.
	Life on other planets, in other words, assuming the universe is teeming, as most modern day astronomers would say, teeming with life and intelligent life in the cosmos... Who says that, by the way?
	I'm not saying they know that as a fact, they would say it most certainly is.
	They're not even saying it!
	Hold on, Hold on, wait a moment, you say that the modern astronomers say that the universe
	is teeming with intelligent life, why do astronomers say that?
	I'm not saying they know that as a fact, they would say that it most certainly is.
	They're not even saying it.
	You've got astronomers, if you ask Alan Hale, he would say that almost certainly we're not
	the only planet in the cosmos with intelligent life.
	Well, there are many astronomers who would say, based on the numbers and the fact that
	we've discovered microbial life on Mars and blah blah, that there's a good chance that
	there's life elsewhere, yes.
	In other words, that life is more common than not.
	They might say that, Father.
	They might say that, yes, but that they say it actually is teeming with intelligent life.
	Well, if you look at the numbers, obviously, billions, trillions of galaxies, each with billions, billions of stars, many of them have been planets.
	We've now discovered, what, eight other planetary systems besides our own solar system.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so my question is, assuming that's the case, let's say, just for the sake of... No, I don't assume the case at all, because in this matter we're all scientists.
	And until you demonstrate to me that the life exists, I will say it's a possibility.
	I can't assume it exists.
	Okay, but let's say for the sake of argument that the universe is pretty much teeming with life, intelligent life, different forms of life.
	What sort of life?
	Intelligent life?
	I'd say for the sake of argument that the universe is pretty much teeming with life.
	Intelligent life, different forms of life.
	Intelligent life?
	Okay, my point is that then that would show that the earth is not special.
	I know, we knew that, but we don't know it scientifically.
	Well, let's assume, for my question, that that is true.
	Let's assume 10 years from now... No, I cannot assume that, because I would not assume it scientifically.
	All right, let's try this question.
	It'll cut down the middle of both.
	Father, if other intelligent life is eventually found equal to or even greater in technological development than ourselves, Would this in any way shake your faith in God?
	Oh, no.
	But the first thing I'll do is, I'll find out the facts about it.
	Yes, indeed.
	But I mean, it would not... No, no.
	It would not.
	Why would it?
	It would produce a great wonder at me and his marvelous workmanship.
	All right.
	And creativity.
	Right.
	That stops a lot of arguments.
	Welcome to the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi.
	Thank you, Rod.
	Yes, sir.
	Hello, this is Gordon in Boise, Idaho.
	Yes, Gordon.
	Hey, how are you doing?
	Well, I know how you're doing.
	I'm not going to ask you that anymore.
	Thank you.
	Hey, I grew up, my dad's a pastor of a church and all my uncles are ministers, Baptists
	generally, Father Martin.
	I'm not ashamed to say that in Jesus' name, I genuinely love you because you're just,
	there's so much love that's a lovely thing to be told in the morning and thank you very
	Well, I can't help it, you know, it's just you kind of project that.
	But my question is this.
	You said that the Antichrist, possibly, or maybe even in your mind, certainly, which I don't know that I have an opinion on it, is already born at this point.
	Yes.
	I didn't say born, I said already alive.
	Already alive.
	Oh!
	I didn't say he was born.
	Okay.
	Okay, now.
	Does this Antichrist, this person, I guess it would be a man, would this person know that they're the Antichrist?
	Oh yeah.
	How would they know it before?
	Would it be just all of a sudden they wake up?
	Well, I'm an evil person, or is this person really going to genuinely be solving the world's problems?
	It's going to feel like, hey, I'm just trying to help out.
	Oh, no, these are good questions.
	I'm curious, too.
	It could be Wayne Green if he's just somebody helping out.
	No, the nature of Antichrist is such that he does know, he will know, he does know completely who he is, who he comes from, and what he's supposed to do.
	How would he be aware, the caller asked?
	He would simply be aware?
	It would be something he would simply know?
	Yes, just as I know instinctively that I'm a man, and that I'm male, and that I think and feel his very nature.
	Then what would key this man, this Antichrist, toward his goal, start him toward his mission?
	Uh, his parentage.
	His parentage.
	His parentage, yes.
	He's not... That's why when one of our callers spoke about his being born, I said, no, I'm not saying that.
	He's alive, yes.
	He's simply alive now.
	He's alive.
	Born is something else, but his parentage is such that he cannot but know who he is.
	All right.
	Well, I feel a little bit better.
	I have people calling me up all the time, Father, telling me I'm the Antichrist.
	I know about my mom and dad, so I guess I'm okay.
	Refer them to me, Art.
	I'll chat with them.
	All right, Father.
	Stay right there.
	We'll be right back to you.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and you're listening to Coast to Coast AM.
	Again, to get a copy of this program, 1-800-917-4278.
	And, uh...
	Thanks for watching!
	Call Art Bell toll free.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Ah, tis indeed.
	toll-free. West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033. This is the CBC Radio Network. Ah, tis indeed. Good morning, everybody.
	All right, I will ask this.
	Father, are you there?
	Yes, of course.
	All right.
	Father, the Vatican has a very, very great deal of power.
	We've talked about it.
	They have, whether they admit it or not, a great deal of political power all around the world.
	One of the things that they did fairly recently was they muscled And I do intend to use that word.
	They muscled their way onto a mountain in Arizona, Mount Graham, and they built an observatory on Mount Graham in connection with an Arizona University.
	However, the Vatican has the larger part of the control of this observatory, looking at deep space things.
	Now, why would they have done that, Father?
	Because the attitude, the mentality amongst those who at the higher level, the highest levels of Vatican
	administration, in fact it was geopolitics, know that now, knowledge of
	what's going on in space and what's approaching us, could be of great import in the next five years.
	Ten years.
	Carefully and well chosen words, Father.
	Thank you.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi, my name is Dan.
	I'm calling from Sacramento.
	Hi, Dan.
	I've been listening to your show tonight.
	I'm really nervous.
	This is quite an opportunity.
	I'm quite young.
	I'm 21.
	21. Oh, Dan Lupinovich. Well, well, first of all, could you repeat your address? Okay, good question.
	217.
	217, in other words.
	Uh-huh.
	East 66th Street.
	66.
	New York.
	New York.
	1-0-0-2-1.
	All right, well, what you said earlier about, like, the trees getting old and, like, new saplings growing.
	Mm-hmm.
	Like, right before you said that, that, like, telepathically crossed my mind.
	It was really weird.
	Mm-hmm.
	I understand what you're saying.
	I understand you then.
	I'm with you.
	All right.
	So, I just, everyone out there listening, I don't want anybody to lose faith like what you're saying.
	I mean, I think there's a new wave underneath this quickening that I think it's like leading towards the creation of like a neo-civilization or something.
	Oh, look, there's no question about it.
	A quickening It's not a negative thing, Dan.
	It's an observational thing, a phenomenal observation.
	and whatever's coming quite a quite quite will be something on the other
	side of our apart of quickening of course is also referred to as
	you know the first signs of life that a woman would feel uh... double
	the it's it's not a negative thing that makes an observational thing a phenomenal
	observation that things are gathering speed
	to a certain point we've got to know that the point of that we don't know
	what could happen But it's not doomsday.
	It's not death and destruction.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	But it is different.
	See?
	It certainly is.
	And unknown.
	And unknown.
	He's to the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Where are you, please?
	Hello, we can barely hear you, sir.
	Where are you?
	Hello, yes.
	My name is Shane, and I'm calling from Minneapolis.
	Alright.
	And, uh, excuse me.
	I have a question.
	First, Father, I think you're a great man, and God bless you for what you're doing.
	Thank you.
	Just one thing.
	I was told that Lucifer can appear as an angel of light.
	That's what St.
	Paul says so.
	Yeah, and what's the story with... I'm a countryman from Ireland.
	Ah, what part?
	From Galway.
	God help us, save us.
	All my family comes from Galway.
	No kidding.
	I was told that Lewis Pratt can appear as an angel of light.
	That's right.
	I was just wondering, what's your thoughts on the lights of Nock?
	Oh, I firmly believe in the 1879 revelation of Nock.
	I firmly believe in it.
	Yes.
	And what about all the later ones?
	The 80s with Cork and Dublin?
	Well, that's something else.
	The Church has not spoken on that.
	Yes.
	I must have some authentic voice saying to me, now look here, this is good, this is bad.
	We don't know about this, you know.
	And the church has not spoken about those other things.
	But it has spoken about Knox.
	And at the present moment, they're trying to make up their minds about Christine Gallagher.
	Okay, yeah.
	Well, I remember when I was living back in Ireland in the 80s,
	people were talking like sheep.
	I know.
	I was.
	They were, but have patience, Shane.
	People are funny.
	They're grasping.
	As Hart says, there's a quickening going on and people are getting panicky.
	Yeah, well, just one more question.
	Sure.
	I was told that there's a great resurgence of Christianity in Ireland at the moment.
	No, on the contrary, it's going downhill.
	It's going downhill?
	It's going downhill.
	Well, I was told that it's gone the other way.
	As an organization, it is collapsing completely.
	Now that faith is still alive, I'm no doubt it is.
	Faith doesn't die out as easily as that.
	But against the organization's shame, it's in shambles.
	What's the chance, I remember hearing down through history, Christianity, you know, the keeper of the faith and all that kind of stuff, is it going to resurge again?
	Yes, at a later time, in another form.
	In a later time, in another form, and more strong than ever.
	The... Shane, here's the point.
	We have outweighed everybody who came to destroy us.
	Yes.
	We will outweigh this, too.
	All right, Shane.
	Yeah.
	Sounds good.
	Well, keep up your work.
	You're doing a terrific job, and God bless you, and Eric, also.
	God bless you, too.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr... Actually, Father... Yeah.
	Both Malachi and Martin.
	Hi.
	King Arthur.
	Mitch, the Magic Christian.
	How you doing?
	From Ventura, California.
	Good morning, Malachi.
	Good morning, Mitch.
	My question is, I wanted to know if you were familiar with the story that came by, at least to me, by Hal Lindsey, the evangelical author and prophetical scholar.
	I like Hal very much.
	I think he's God-like.
	He's on the ball.
	Are you familiar with his claim that That the invention of the Xerox machine has demonic origins?
	Well, you know, I don't know the details of all that.
	I know it was invented way back in the last century, by the way, the Xerox machine.
	Although we didn't commercialize it until this century.
	I don't know about the demonic origin of it.
	Yeah, he claims that a disembodied voice gave the inventor, I can't remember his name right now, Word-for-word plans, and not only that, he said that the Xerox Corporation has founded and is funding in perpetuity the Terrorist Psychology Department of Duke University.
	Uh-huh.
	Yes, I'm not acquainted with all that.
	I really am not.
	I can't say I know that.
	All right, thank you very much.
	Gee, I'd never heard that.
	No, neither have I. The Xerox?
	I do esteem Al Halliday very much.
	He's a good man.
	Yeah, that's a new one.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Father Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hi, this is Mike in Minnesota.
	Hi, Mike.
	You guys were talking about Luciferians before, and I got something I clipped out a couple years ago that has something to do with this cult.
	Yeah, but they're called something else.
	I was going to send this to you, Art, if I could get your fax.
	Sure.
	702-727-8499.
	702-747?
	No, 727-8499.
	727-8499.
	uh... sure seven oh two okay seven two seven eight four nine nine
	so not to some portion of it
	no seven two seven eight four nine nine
	it for that seven two seven eight four nine
	okay um...
	but what it does it goes along the line of uh...
	what that they have said about uh... i've been uh...
	That's just like what they used to say.
	you're going to come back and spade us under?
	Mm-hmm.
	And so it starts off, it was from a weekly, you know, like a weekly paper,
	entertainment paper, and it was there one week and didn't show up the next,
	and it's from 1993.
	Anyways, it starts off, there is a present civilization that's about to be recycled,
	spaded under.
	Well, that sounds just like the Heaven's Gate stuff.
	That's just like what they used to say.
	I'll tell you, Mike, my reaction always is, I'm paying prayers daily for best fellows.
	Does that help you?
	Well, I was going to tell you what they said about the Luciferians.
	What did they say?
	They said the reason for the term true kingdom of God is used repeatedly is because there are many space alien races that through the centuries of the civilization and in civilizations prior have represented themselves to humans as gods.
	We refer to them collectively as Luciferians.
	For their ancestors fell away from the keeping of the true kingdom of God many thousands of years ago.
	They are not genderless.
	They still need to reproduce.
	They are nothing more than technically advanced humans who have retained some of what they learned while in the early training of the members of the true kingdom of God.
	All right.
	Well, we're going to hold it there.
	That sounds just like the Heaven's Gate.
	It does to me.
	Do you have any comment on that whole Heaven's Gate business?
	The general comment I have is that it really, you know, in my opinion, it was a Christian heresy.
	It was distortion of Christianity.
	The timing was made to coincide with the resurrection, the central feast day of Christianity.
	They denied, completely, The normal Christian teaching about the body and the soul.
	Yes.
	And they also took refuge in mythical things, such as in that quote that Mike just read to us, and also in what we know of what Applewhite used to say about the upper level and getting rid of the body and things like that.
	I don't want to get rid of my body.
	I wonder, Father, did he confuse the upper level with the middle level?
	Yes, I think he did.
	I think he did.
	I've scoured the magazines on the papers.
	I find no trace of any preternatural gifts in him.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes, I do.
	So I don't find the little kind of gifts.
	Perhaps he had them.
	He had a great gift of persuasion.
	Everybody says that he could talk you into anything, you know.
	But he seems to have been a very troubled individual, passing from heterosexuality to homosexuality to A very tortured individual, and he does deserve our prayers, no matter how he ends his life.
	And only God can judge a man like that, and judge the whole 39 of them, and anybody else.
	But I have the impression that it's a Christian heresy, really.
	I think it's easier to get in heaven and get through on this line.
	Since you've made it here you may have a chance there.
	Hi Father and hi Art.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Is it easier to get in heaven and get through on this line?
	Well, since you've made it here you may have a chance there.
	Continue.
	The question I have is, I was reading the book of Job and it mentions Leviathan.
	That's a leviathan.
	Is that like a parable or is that like an actual creature?
	What the commentators normally say about that is that leviathan in the Book of Job refers to the rhinoceros in Egypt in the River Nile.
	I see.
	And leviathan does mean, just in Hebrew, it means a big, bulky, ungainly animal.
	Oh, I thought it was like a fire-breathing dragon.
	Well, that's another interpretation on it, but commentators say that what the writer was talking about, he was a South Semitic man, writing this sometime about, what, who, about 400, 300 BC, writing this play about Job, in three acts, by the way, there are three acts in the play, in the book, but that he was drawing on sort of mythical or mythologization of Things like the storm and things like dragons resembling the rhinoceros.
	Ah, I see.
	They were the biggest animals they knew.
	Rhinoceros and elephants.
	The other thing I'd like to point out is I get a kick how scientists tend to downplay biblical things in the Bible and then later come to be found to be too like the Noah's Ark, and they found the parting of the Red Sea to be actually a probable event.
	Alright, I've got one to ask you about, Father.
	Sort of in that same spirit.
	And it is the following.
	We have now cloned a sheep.
	That's right.
	Apparently cloned monkeys.
	And there seems to be no reason why a human cannot be cloned.
	I'm not so sure it hasn't already been done.
	Uh, this begins to get close to, it seems like, God's work.
	Of course it does, and I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm persuaded in my own mind that somewhere, some group are already trying to clone humans.
	You betcha.
	Now the difficulty is this, by the way, just pointed out yesterday by a commentator, that Dolly, Dolly's not a young sheep.
	Right.
	She has the DNA of an old sheep.
	Right.
	And therefore, cloning a human being, if I say, oh, I want to clone, I want to clone me, so that somebody like me, they're going to get 76 years of DNA.
	And as you know, DNA decreases with age.
	But that they're cloning, and I'm going to clone, I am certain.
	I'm certain too.
	Is this...
	Is this something that man... I mean, is there some line, any line, anywhere that we should not be crossing?
	And if there is, is this one of them?
	Well, I'll tell you my immediate answer.
	I haven't really considered it deeply, but I've given a certain amount of consideration to this.
	If I can get to cloning another human being without violating the rules of morality, then in principle, I cannot see what the game is.
	It's like once upon a time, for instance, in the 19th century, when people proposed lessening the pains of travail in birth.
	They were told brusquely by the fundamentals, hey, you're supposed to bring forth our children in pain.
	But is not the purpose of sex reproduction?
	And if reproduction is ultimately achieved without the sex act, I know.
	I know.
	I see all the difficulties.
	And, of course, we come to the state that it must be regulated by moral teaching.
	It won't be, just as in vitro fertilization is not.
	Father, we're starting to run out of time here.
	I want to ask you a question.
	We've got a link on our website to yours.
	Yes.
	On your website, is there a way to send email to you?
	Yes, there is.
	There is?
	There is.
	All right, so through that link they can send email?
	They can.
	Or they can write to you?
	Either one or the other.
	How do you handle all your mail, Father?
	I have a helper, but I dictate all the way through every letter.
	I read every letter and make notes on it.
	And the ones which are acute, somebody with a real problem, I answer them myself by hand.
	Uh, myself, perhaps.
	Then please, very, very slowly, give your address again.
	A lot of people are slow.
	You know, they're reaching for a pen at this time of the morning.
	It's hard.
	Yes, it is.
	Yes, the address is 217, 217, in other words, East 66th Street, 66.
	New York, New York, 10021.
	Okay.
	Father, I want to wish you a very good day and a lot of blessings on you and your wife.
	Thank you, Father.
	And I want to thank you for having me as your guest.
	It is a privilege, and I regard it as something that leaves me... It's like, when I was preparing for it and thinking about it all day yesterday, it's like I was like a schoolboy on the eve of a holiday.
	It really was.
	I was looking forward to it so much.
	And you're very patient, and I do explode my Ps and my Bs, because I...
	I get excited and lift the receiver close to my lip to emphasize, as if I need to do that.
	That's my fuddy-duddy behavior, and I know you forgive me for it.
	I absolutely do, Father.
	Let us stay in contact, and you win my prayers and my affection.
	You know you'll be back, so it's not goodbye, but till next time.
	Exactly.
	God bless.
	Father, thank you.
	That's Father Malachi Martin.
	Well, I hope we asked the questions or got to the topics that you wanted us to get to.
	Naturally, we cannot get to them all.
	That's why there'll be another program.
	I want to thank you all.
	It has been... It has been an intriguing week.
	Or is it two weeks now?
	And to all of you who helped out and stayed with me through all of this, I say thank you.
	To those of you who would like to order a copy of this five-hour program, please call 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278 from the high desert.

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