Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell debunks Richard Hoagland’s "20-mile-high moon structures" as pseudoscience, affirming NASA’s secrecy on lunar anomalies was due to disbelief, not suppression. His Apollo 14 ESP experiments (1 in 3,000 odds) and zero-point energy research suggest consciousness stems from quantum non-locality, with Earth’s 1967 view sparking his lifelong study of parapsychology. Mitchell rejects UFO encounters by astronauts but links healing—like his mother’s Buddhist shaman experience—to universal energy fields, warning ethical lapses in AI or genetic experiments (e.g., San Francisco baboon-human transfers) demand new moral frameworks. The universe’s 15-billion-year age hints at older civilizations, yet humanity’s interconnectedness with nature may be more profound than isolation. [Automatically generated summary]
He is, the six-year-old family's family was being harassed.
In Georgia, there's been the arrest of two men, they say militia connected, or claim to be in the militia.
One of the men, commander of a militia, was making bombs, pipe bombs, and burying them against the day when they'd have to be used against the government.
It's a strange world.
May you live in interesting times, the curse went, with more.
Art, did you go to Shepard Air Force Base after Lackland?
If so, what squadron were you in and what was your FSC?
No, not Shepard.
I went to Amarillo after tech school.
And then he asks, where was I when President Kennedy was assassinated?
Everybody remembers that, of course, and I was in the hospital as a worker at Lackland at the moment of the assassination.
In regards to, like, oh, now I'm having a problem remembered.
Here, I'll get it.
When they were having to maneuver the spaceship to go to the moon, were there any times in which they were flying there that they had problems with, you know, their guidance or anything like that?
Because after watching the Apollo 13, I kind of wondered how he felt, you know, going to the moon right after that happening.
There are, though, a lot of people who wouldn't even think about it.
I wouldn't hesitate for a second.
People risk their lives, given the odds with a record they had for much less.
And even though we're going to get Dr. Mitchell's words this morning about what it was like on the moon, I guess there are no words that would do justice to actually being there, are there?
Would you, had you been on that mission, I mean, to get that far, to be in the limb, and then to have the landing radar fail, I mean, you're halfway down or whatever, would you keep going?
Would you say, sorry, Houston, missed that transmission?
You know, where in one scene the Roadrunner is, actually Wiley Coyote is absolutely destroyed or gets smushed or something, and he's back up and bouncing around in the next scene.
I watched all of that, and that didn't lead me in any sort of direction of assuming that violence was all right.
I never for a second believed that.
unidentified
Yeah.
Well, I have a six-year-old and a nine-year-old kids, and both of them are extremely compassionate, you know, loving children, and it wouldn't affect them, but I think a child that wasn't really brought up in a super loving home, was bonded with the mother at birth and really loved, might become kind of disconnected from society and just kind of buy into that violent thing.
I don't know.
It's hard to understand, but when I saw these children's cartoons that are on, it just kind of struck me that maybe that was part of the problem.
I appreciate the call, and we'll think about that, of course.
And I did think about that, and I've seen the experts endlessly talking on CNN and elsewhere, you know, about this thing.
They talk about television and about cartoon characters, but hell.
I watched all that stuff, and I bet a lot of you did, too.
And I don't for a second believe that that is the factor that could precipitate a 300% change in these kinds of crimes in a decade.
I don't believe that for a second.
There's something else at work here.
Cartoons were always that way.
Remember Tweety Bird?
I mean, we could go on and on and on and on with cartoons where there was violence in one second, a curse smash, a kaboom, a fall off a cliff, oh, let me document the ways.
And then in the next scene, they're back up, unsmushed, and back at it.
And the charge is, well, children see this kind of thing and they assume that they're not really doing any harm.
Now, I've heard references to Zachariah Sitchin, and he was actually the first time I'd ever read of the Sidonia region and the pyramids and other structures that are on Mars.
I was wondering if you knew anything about, say, corresponding theories that Mr. Sitchin might have, along with Mr. Hoglan?
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All right, just a little promo here.
We did a full five hours with Richard Hoagland last night.
It was an amazing five hours, actually.
And if you would like a copy of that program with Richard Hoagland, or you would like to order our newsletter, and let me tell you right now, we have got an issue coming up, the cutoff date of which is Sunday night, right after Dreamland.
It has got some of the most definitively beautiful crop circle photographs in it that you're ever going to see in your life.
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Didn't hear the whole thing.
Also, coming this week on Dreamland, Robert Ghostwolf is Sunday, a Lakota Iroquois shaman on Native American prophecy.
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If you don't have Dreamland as of yet, contact your radio station, whoever that is, and ask politely that they try to find room to carry it.
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they can do it any way they like.
Let's see, there's something else I'm supposed to do here, too.
Mother's Day cometh.
You know, it's what, a week away, a little better than a week away, something like that.
What is today?
No, it's two weeks away.
It's almost the middle of the month, 13th, 14th, something like that Sunday, I think.
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At the top of the hour, if all goes well, and I say if all goes well because one never knows...
Dr. Edgar Mitchell is going to be here at the Apollo 14 hours.
Can I walk on the moon?
And here's a good question from somebody out there.
Art, I can imagine the gambit of emotions that one would experience as you look from the moon to your world.
The one in which you experienced your childhood and life experience.
Art, please ask Dr. Mitchell, what was his first emotion and question at the moment he realized out there, your vision of the moon and universe from the eyes of his youth was now at its peak.
Did he ever experience sadness for the people on Earth, and if so, why?
Sadness for the people on Earth.
I wouldn't think that would be the emotion, but we will surely ask him.
I've said this, and people take me to task for it, but I think the Brookings report is probably accurate, and that really puts me in a stinking position with the materials that I've got and the report I'm going to be getting.
Assuming that it would come back anything but normal materials, you know, I'd have to sit down and think about it.
I never murdered, well, I did put a big shovel mark in the middle of my sister's nose, but I never murdered anybody, and you didn't, and I don't think the average person did.
So I think it's controversial.
I do think television has some effect, but I don't think it's turned our youngsters in the last decade into murderers.
unidentified
Well, the reason I bring that up is because I lived with a woman who had a child who used to watch the He-Man cartoon.
He was sick at the time, and he took his little brother's head and stepped on it.
It's like just like the cartoon.
Now, I'm not saying he's going to turn into a murderer or anything like that, but I do feel with the psychological studies where they show the adult modeling against one of those dolls that you hit, and it comes right back up.
Do you honestly think that cartoons are showing any less death, dying, or smooshing in the last decade than they did in decades previous?
unidentified
Well, I don't remember the He-Man type of thing, those He-Man or those Wonder or whatever they are that show actually more humans.
I mean, seeing the Roadrunner and the Wiley Coyote, I think I'm not saying that was any less, but I'm just saying that now they show more of what looks like mommy and daddy on the TV screen that are beaten up on cartoon characters.
I've always thought that television does have some effect.
And I've always thought that there ought to be some sort of, you know, you hate the word censorship, but there's some restraint shown in the period of time during which children get home from school, a lot of them latchkey, and the later evening programming.
You know, there's kind of a window in there where they come home, open the door, shut it, grab a Coke, sit down in front of the television, and away you go.
They've been working for nearly 15 years for the dark side of our government.
I saw plenty of dark things.
But, you know, so I understand that oath of silence thing, and I think that they're just kind of dribbling this out like you've speculated and others have speculated.
And this might be a way for them to get about doing it.
I think enough people would just literally lose it because of it.
I mean, there'd be people jumping out of windows for starters, and another percentage of people would be running out and robbing banks and headed for the hills.
So I mean, everybody to think about that.
What if that happened tomorrow?
What did they think would happen?
All the people that they know, how many of the people do they know could handle this rationally and some who wouldn't handle this rationally?
A view, an 8-millimeter film, a view outside an airplane cockpit window?
unidentified
Yes.
And in the film, I put it under a microscope and I can make out an absolute elliptical shaped object that is glowing with a very bright white light because the light is reflecting into the cockpit window.
I have 12 years of experience working in technical areas and I work now as, I guess I'm repairing computer robotics boards.
She acquired the film from some friends of hers who are older gentlemen, and they turned it over to her because they wanted me to make a videotape of the film for them so they could put it on their VCR.
Then you'll be able to supply copies, and you can get several first-generation copies made and get one of those analyzed without risking your original film.
That's what I guess I would do.
And most photographic stores can accomplish that for you.
The matter you mentioned about the telephone, well, the ringing only for so long is that I called the phone company about that, and they claimed that was a policy of the 1-800, the radio station.
I'm, you know, with all the footage I've seen, I'm going on 40 years old here, and with all the footage I've seen, and this and that with the Yeti, the Sasquatch, the pleasio sort theory of the loch nests, the giant squids, etc.
I have no problem with that.
We've got things far beyond the concern about that.
But the new movie coming out, matter of fact, you mentioned, someone asked you a while back your favorite science fiction movies.
I'm sure you have seen The Day There's Just Still, 1951.
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One other little item, $100 bills.
We've got new ones.
And all the people that have called me say they are very ugly.
Very ugly.
Why didn't they do more testing on what the American people would like and not like?
They just slammed it together, I guess.
Everybody I've talked to doesn't like the new hundreds.
Anyway, that is the least of the reason to be talking about this.
But they are ugly.
There is more new ugly money to come.
Other denominations, new denominations, will be on the way.
They say that the bills in Russia and elsewhere in the world, $100 U.S. bills, are different internationally.
That opens the way toward a domestic eventual devaluation, which is no doubt inevitable.
And I have yet to talk to anybody who's looked into this who would challenge that view.
It's just inevitable.
Do the numbers.
North American trading would be happy to tell you what this will mean to you, what the rest of the story on the new currency is.
Call them.
The call is free and the information is free.
And if you don't take it, then you've just got your head in the economic sand.
And somebody's going to come along and kick you in the economic rear.
Hi, I'd like to talk to you about the bookings report.
Okay.
I have a problem with your view in that we wouldn't be able to handle it, or at least the majority of people in the United States wouldn't be able to handle it.
I said some people clearly would not be able to handle it.
Do you challenge that?
unidentified
Well, I believe that they wouldn't, but I have a bigger problem with the fact that we're dealing with a deception as it is, and I see that as a larger problem.
If we start getting to some truth about what's out there and about how everything works, it might end up being more beneficial than non-beneficial.
Well, I kind of made it my business from 1957 on, after Sputnik went up.
I'd recognized that humans would probably be right behind robot spacecraft, and I wanted to go along, so I started working on it, on my credentials, 1957, even before there were manned flight much more than a dream.
It took me nine years, adding to my test pilot credentials, getting a PhD from MIT, and being involved in space development with the military.
I didn't quite exactly know, but I just kept adding potentials and qualifications and hoping that sooner or later they couldn't ignore me any longer, which turned out to be true, by 1966.
Bearing that in mind, and with a lot of people who've seen 13, the movie, going on 14 must have been a bit of a, even though I'm sure by then you were all locked into it and ready, still in the back of your mind, with Apollo 13 just having occurred, you must have worried that a similar thing could have occurred.
We were careful with regard to that, watched each other pretty cautiously, kept an eye on each other, worked the buddy system and tried to make sure we didn't fall on anything really sharp.
But it was a remote probability, but it was still there.
If something like that had occurred, would it be automatically fatal, or would there have been time to do a quick patch job, assuming it wasn't a giant tear and something you'd lived through?
We had about five ways to back up the engine ignition and the start sequence.
Fortunately, we didn't have to use any of them, but we had several different backups, the last of which was to run a jumper cable from the descent stage through the hatch into the ascent stage circuit breaker panel.
I always wondered what would happen when that cable went snaking out through the front door as we left it off.
Yeah, I compare it to the vertical subway ride, kind of shaking, rattling, and rolling as the chemicals move the vector around.
And with acceleration, you're getting pushed back in the seat ever more firmly until you reach first stage cutoff of a minute or so, about a minute and 20 seconds of flight.
It's the emergency reentry that pushes you up to high G loads, potentially up to 16.5 G. We practice that, and it's not a comfortable feeling to practice emergency aborts.
Depends on how you're taking it, transverse G's, through the body, like we were taking it.
You're going to start to black out above 16 if you sustain it too long.
But you can take a jerk or short impulses higher than that.
You may tear a few blood vessels, but you'll survive it.
I don't really know what the absolute limit is.
They tested that out in the White Sands.
Colonel Harold Staff tested it out in the White Sands back in the 60s with rocket sleds that they brought to a screeching halt up to 20 or 30 G's, as I recall.
The only big surprise was it was much more difficult to navigate than we thought because it looks like a fairly smooth surface where we landed, relatively smooth.
But it turns out the undulations of the crater impacts are like sand dunes, and they're much higher than you think they are.
So whereas we thought we could navigate across the surface very, very precisely within inches if we wanted to, it turns out you couldn't do that because you lose sight of your landmarks.
Just like walking through the desert with sand dunes.
You come over one sand dune and lo and behold, there's another one and you can't quite see what's over the next one.
Would that have blocked your, in other words, with that kind of geography, which is hillier than you thought, would that have blocked your view or did you have a great view to the moon's horizon?
A lot of people thought the early Apollo missions might, you know, when the LEM came down, might go sinking into the moon dust, and there was going to be a great deal of moon dust there.
Regarding your appearance on Dateline, NBC's Dateline, a few minutes into the interview, if you had missed it, you would have missed the commentator's remark that Dr. Mitchell returned from the moon with a couple of secrets.
So if he's unable or unwilling to corroborate Richard Hoagland's work, and we'll get to that later, I'd like to know if it's true that there are some secrets.
Is there anything, any secret that you learned that you still are unable to discuss?
Well, the standard sort of test that had been done in the laboratory by J.B. Ryan and other people for 30 years or more, I just simply conducted it in that environment.
And I can only quote the results statistically because that's the way it was set up.
The probability that chance could have produced our results was one in 3,000.
Planned to do it more than that, but I had time to do it four different times during my rest period.
It took about seven minutes each time to organize the standard zinner symbols in accordance with random numbers selected from a random number table and copied onto my knee pad.
and organized the symbols of corinth random orientation of the numbers one two three four five and then simply thought about each symbol in turn for fifteen seconds and and the result was uh...
Well, as I tell in my book that's coming out, I had been in discussion with some medical people, as a matter of fact, who were very good scientists and who were frustrated with the establishment's lack of interest in these human capabilities.
And it seemed like too good an opportunity to pass up because no one had ever been able to conduct an experiment over those distances.
Now, it was a simple experiment.
It didn't show a lot because one set of experiments is never enough.
But it was indicative.
And the only problem with it, only problem was that it got broken to the press before we were ready to and before we had chance to analyze the results and do it in a thoroughly scientific, proper way.
One of our persons involved in it, who happened to have been a professional psychic, couldn't contain himself, got too excited, and leaked it to the press.
You, on Dateline, virtually suggested that you think your opinion, so it's safe to say that, is that there was really perhaps a crash in 1947 in Roswell and that it has been covered up.
I lived in Roswell at the time, but I was too young, of course, to know much about that incident, although it was not too far from my parents' ranch.
Interestingly enough, and also as I point out in my book, Robert Goddard lived right down the road from where I grew up in Roswell.
Walked past his house on the way to school every day.
So the Roswell area is of interest to me.
I remember that incident vaguely, remember the headlines, and didn't think much about it at the time when it was said, well, it was just a weather blowout.
But the subsequent events and the people who have come forth in later years saying that they were told to keep quiet and that they don't want to keep quiet anymore and the many, many investigations of it suggest that there's really more to it than has been told.
There are a lot of people who would say the same thing about you.
in other words that you wouldn't want to go to your grave with secrets about the moon now i'm i'm not going to beat this to death but i'm going to ask you
Richard Hoagland claims that there are great glass structures on the moon, and he presents photographs, including one I might add, of you on the moon, in which he claims reflections in your visor are showing things that were in front of you that you have not admitted were there.
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All right, back now to Florida.
And my guest, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut.
Doctor, this question does not relate to you because of the nature of your crew on Apollo 14, so don't take it that way.
But one day, if America is to ever, or any nation on this globe, I guess, is ever to launch a spacecraft to elsewhere, truly to elsewhere, beyond our system, in what will be a very long spaceflight, there may have to be generations, literally, of people to accomplish that fact, unless we can start moving a lot faster than light.
Toward that end, I would think that NASA would have, but wouldn't talk about, a great interest in whether it would be possible to procreate in space or the nature of procreation, and that leads to whether there's ever been sex in space.
And we talked about that one night, and you seem like the person to ask.
Well, we certainly need to consider it, because, as you point out, long-distance spaceflight can take years and years.
Even though, by the way, it's a matter of interest, there's a lot of work going on at the moment to modify, learn to modify the basic characteristics of local space in order to change the speed of light.
So locally, one could exceed the speed of light.
Way, Not really exceed the speed of light, but it would appear that one's exceeding the speed of light.
One of the things that Richard Hoagland may not be so far out on and that you may wish to comment on is he talks about a new type of physics that seems to sound a lot like what Tesla worked on, that seems to relate to something you've talked about, this zero-point energy.
If it's the Big Bang or some modification of the Big Bang, then doesn't it follow that if Roswell really occurred, if there really was a crash at Roswell or there have been others or there are others to visit, that any materials gathered would likely, frankly be very much like the materials we have here on earth in other words all well marker material source from a common living
What really comes out of it is that the Big Bang tells us that all matter is interconnected in some way.
And this comes out of an experiment only 12 years ago called the Aspect Experiment, or more formally Bell's Theorem, which has been tested and proven to be correct, that matter once in connection or correlated with each other remains correlated in some sense.
And I trace this up to being responsible for what we experience as our inner experience.
Non-locality is the correct term.
And we experience our ESP, our intuition, our creativity, as a result of that very fundamental physical relationship that exists in nature.
And it always existed in nature, and it's responsible for us having our inner experience the way we have it.
And this was what got all of this going as far as I'm concerned.
It was the perception in looking at the cosmos, seeing the stars, seeing the galaxies, seeing the galactic clusters, the profusion of billions and billions and billions of stellar objects with this tiny little Earth in the midst of it,
and perceiving that the molecules of my body, of that spacecraft we were in, of each other, of everything around us, were all manufactured in those ancient stars.
And that our story about ourselves from science was incomplete.
And our cosmology about how we came to be from our cultural traditions and our religions was archaic.
That we needed a new story.
And that new story was, what is it that makes us conscious?
Why is it that we're aware of beings like we are?
And the answer to that question is centered around what I have been doing for the last 25 years, trying to find what's going on here.
Our answers are not complete, but I think after 25 years of working at it, we're getting pretty close to a good answer.
And it does involve a zero-point field.
It does involve quantum physics.
It does involve spiritual experience, mystical experience, parapsychological functioning.
All of those things have to be satisfactorily answered if we're to know what it is we are.
I think it's absolutely wonderful to know where you first start with the idea, this universe is full of life.
It's full of intelligent life.
The fact that some of it might be a little bit more advanced or happened a little earlier than our civilization seems natural.
If life is throughout the universe, which is quite a different concept than we held 25 or 30 years ago.
But now I think that is the case.
And if the universe is approximately 15 billion years old or so, give or take a few, it would not be strange that maybe a civilization could be a few million or even a billion or so years older than we are.
I think that's probably true, but not nearly like it was 25 years ago.
A recent study done by my own institute demonstrates that has broken the demographics down into three different groups called the traditionalist, the moderns, and the postmoderns.
And the postmoderns, another name for them is called Cultural Creatives, which is the group like you and I are that are looking for new answers, looking for where the future is, not afraid of these ideas.
That group has changed from 2% to 24% in the last 20 years and is in equal in size in the United States, we're talking about U.S. demographics, equal in size to the traditionalist and the moderns.
The moderns would be your corporate people, your materialist scientists, the yuppie group, and so forth.
And the cultural creatives would be the Greens, the environmentally sensitive people looking to the future.
All those groups are now roughly the same size with the cultural creatives increasing and the others decreasing.
I talk a bit about the space experience, of course, how I got into all of that.
But most of the book, and this story of looking at the universe and being awestruck by what I was experiencing, but most of it is the research of the last 25 years going into these various topics,
the mystical experience, the parapsychological experience, studying consciousness, how does it relate to our psychology, to our religion, to our mystical experience, to our science, and giving my thoughts on it and my work of the last 20-some years and coming to a new model called the Dyadic model of how it relates.
What does all this mean to us?
And where does it seem to be taking us in the future?
And I touch upon the UFO experience a bit, the notion that intelligent life is probably throughout the universe.
And the real question is, have we found each other yet?
All of these items are touched upon, some of them in significant detail, and it's kind of the result of my last 27 years of research.
It's hung upon an autobiographical story, and the people who have read it say, hey, that's a pretty interesting tale you got there, man.
If another group of people from elsewhere had been watching us, or if we had been observed, then surely those moments when we left our planet in a significant way beyond low Earth orbit or even geosynchronous orbiting satellites, those moments would have been, I would think, of intense interest to somebody else.
And so obviously the question, did you, en route to the moon or back, see anything at all that was anomalous?
I mean, these stories and rumors have been around for years, but I have had no experience, none on our flight, and to my knowledge, no unexplained experience on any of the flights in this regard.
And yes, in an evolutionary sense, an extraterrestrial intelligence would be very curious about the evolutionary progress that a civilization they discovered had made.
So if we were watching somebody's first steps into space, we'd be intensely curious about it.
I would have thought there would have been at least some private, secret code word or contact or something before you just blurted out a whole thing out publicly.
As you reflect, Doctor, on what it all means or how we came to be, and that's what we're all asking, do you consider that a possibility that life here on Earth was, in effect, jump-started one way or the other, obelisk or otherwise, by folks from elsewhere?
But there's some interesting speculation by, well, I think he wrote the 12th planet.
Zacharias Sitchin, Zach Sitchin, thank you, that says, well, maybe they intervened along the way, and that the historical biblical story out of Samaria could very well have been that sort of influence.
I would love to have Sitchin's work either confirmed or denied by additional scholarship because it's intriguing, and he makes a very strong case, and it's interesting stuff.
And it's quite possible.
But I think we probably originated, much like life originated elsewhere.
And the model for that is what I give in my new book as to how that could possibly happen.
Well, there is certainly a lot suddenly happening.
Your statements, those that are going to be interestingly made May 7th, which is the date your book is coming out, I know, by Gordon Cooper on Paranormal Borderline.
Apparently some incredible statements coming.
I don't have a full text, but the people that do have told me they're amazing statements.
And a lot of people would say the things you have said, that Gordon Cooper will say and others, are all leading up to something, that it's a slow sort of preparation.
That's the way people feel.
And that motion pictures are adding to that, you know, Independence Day coming up, the big movie.
The whole thing, that all of this is leading to a sort of crescendo of information when there'll be some big revelation.
Well, that goes to the nature of my question, and that is now we're talking about a space station with the Russians, and I guess the space program has not gone as aggressively as people like yourself, myself might have wished it to.
Where should the space program be going?
If you had your brothers and money wasn't a problem, what would we be doing?
Well, I think we're probably doing a lot of the right things right now.
But in due course, we will do all of these things.
We will go back to the moon.
We will go to Mars.
We will go out to the solar system.
We will even go beyond the solar system in due course, sometime in the next century or so, or beyond.
But right now, I think we need to get our act together here on Earth.
And the space technology is absolutely marvelous for surveying the Earth, seeing how to get ourselves better organized here, get things pulled together.
It's quite apparent when you look at Earth from space that this thin, thin, thin little biosphere that we have is rather in jeopardy.
You know, we spotted the burning forest, the pollution from space.
It's very easy to see.
And it's causing people to be very concerned.
So getting ourselves organized, recognizing who and what we are, what is our place in the cosmos, laying our plans for the future, it's an appropriate thing to do now.
We've only been in space about 30-some years, and that's just nothing.
And we're just really starting to understand what this environment's all about.
It certainly causes you to become far, to ask questions in a different way.
And most of the people who have been in space, I would say, are now, if not ardent environmentalists, certainly very sensitive to environmental issues.
I think the NASA program itself in the early days, we had very high family problems just because of the intensity, the dedication.
This idea of going to the moon back in the 60s was so exciting and people were so dedicated that the men and women, mostly men in those days, focused on their jobs and families came second.
And that's just not the way you keep a family together.
And as a result, we had our casualties.
And I think the timber of the times, as we see in American society in general at these times, that we're undergoing a transition.
And it has been very difficult on the families themselves.
But it's just a part of the times, I believe, and the intensity of this very marvelous program we were a part of.
I want to dispel another rumor, or it's actually more than that.
Flying around on the internet, this great new information resource we have, there are all these texts, there are a lot of texts of supposed astronaut communications intercepted by amateur radio operators during blackout times about things they saw, most amazing things.
Well, without analyzing them individually, I can't say they're all baloney, but by and large I would say in a general statement, yeah, they're all baloney.
Some of them have, perhaps a little more guardedly.
I've kind of made it my business for the last quite a few years to look very carefully, very critically at many of these frontier concepts to see what validity they had.
And we're finding many of them have a certain amount of validity.
And as they have validity, you start to find ways to bring them Into the body of our knowledge.
And when you're a pioneer in that way, as I try to be, yes, you invite criticism, you invite the wise nods and the shaking of heads and so forth.
But that just goes with the territory of being an explorer.
I can't give you the exact quote, but he went to the White House, I'm sure you've heard it, and said that there are places to go and things to see that will boggle your mind or something very close to that.
All right, well, you have had the ultimate physical experience, the science experience of going to the moon.
Do you think the ultimate answers that man seeks are going to be found in the hard sciences, or do you think that we will have to turn inward to find those answers?
Here's something that I would like to ask you about.
Maybe you can answer it in a way I haven't been able to.
But those of religious faith, deep religious faith, many of them view discussion of UFOs, discussion of people or others that may be out there as of the devil.
Well, this was, I grew up in a fundamentalist tradition.
I tell the story in my book about my mother who was healed amazingly in one of these powerful things, healing moments, very much the way Jesus is supposed to have healed people.
Only the interesting part was this fellow was a Buddhist shaman, and he did a pretty marvelous job of healing my mother.
She wore thick, by the time this happened, she wore very thick Coke bottle glasses and was legally blind without them.
And she was healed and could see, broke, an interesting story, dropped her glasses on the floor, ground them under her shoe, and said, son, praise the Lord, I can see.
Drove home without her glasses 300 miles by herself.
She called me a week later and said, son, was this man a Christian?
And I said, oh, Jesus, no, mother.
I'm sorry, he wasn't.
The next day, she had to put her glasses back, had to go get new glasses.
Her belief system was so strong that since she couldn't accept a Buddhist shaman healing her, I understand.
She rejected the healing.
Now, interestingly enough, 10 years later when she passed away, she still hadn't had an operation because it was pretty risky back in those days.
But she never went blind.
Her eyesight improved over the years, the ten years remaining to her, so that by the time she passed away, she wasn't, her glasses were a far weaker prescription than when this incident occurred.
Last night, scientists, it says, are now calculating that asteroid 433, known as Eros, will wander into Earth's orbit.
Now, it's not a minor little asteroid.
It is the size of Manhattan.
Scientists are saying eventually a collision with Earth is likely, maybe not for a million years, and that's a long time, but they calculate it will probably occur.
Now, of course, that's far larger than the one that supposedly took out the dinosaurs.
And you see, this illustrates what I'm talking about in our evolutionary path.
We are indeed, these events can come under our conscious control.
By the time that might happen, see, it's not, they say the probability is very, very low in the next 10,000 years, virtually zero.
And within 10,000 years, we certainly would have the technology to divert an object like that with perhaps nuclear power or some such technology that we could invent by the time that happens.
So that illustrates the fact we could bring this sort of natural disaster within our ability to pervert it or change it.
We may not be able to get to earthquakes by that time, but again, we might.
But certainly, it's feasible that we could pervert an asteroid that was going to collide with it.
There are many who have prophets, people who claim to see.
You mentioned earthquakes.
Gordon Michael Scallion, he's a fellow I work with, brilliant guy.
Others who see great earth changes coming, great, great earthquakes coming.
And indeed, I look at our society right now, we're dealing with a story this morning of a six-year-old who may have or is alleged to have planned the murder of a 30-day-old child.
This sort of thing.
Events, socially, economically, politically, seem to be in rapid deterioration, and events appear to be quickening.
Well, yes, I have, and I described part of this in the book.
I don't know that geologic events are accelerating, but certainly, well, in the sense that weather events, if they're influenced by the ozone layer, if they're influenced by the global warming, the greenhouse effect, those can be traced to human activity.
And if we can trace it to human activity, then yes, it's accelerating because every measure of human activity has a period of doubling now that is less than a human lifetime.
And it's the first time that's happened in all human history.
So it's bringing, it's what I'm saying, it's bringing all of these events are coming under human control.
And it's because we're so numerous, our technology is so powerful, and it requires us now to rethink this whole issue of who are we, how did we get here, what's our future, where are we going, why, and how.
Well, whether you believe in a Creator or you believe that our Earth is reacting to what is being done to it, there are a lot of people who believe, and I may be one of them, that the Earth is in fact in some way, maybe perhaps just some natural way, reacting to our presence or the changes we're bringing to Earth.
And that's exactly the sort of model I describe in my book, that this is an interactive, self-organizing system that we're talking about.
And you push on it here, and the effect comes out over there in ways we don't really quite understand yet.
And that's precisely what we must do, is to take responsibility for and understand the consequences of our behaviors because we're doing some things that are quite reminiscent of the lemmings rushing toward the sea.
The question here is not are the measurements accurate.
The question is the meaning and the interpretation.
And the evidence continues to mount that these are indeed man-made events and that they're having a deleterious effect upon our whole ecological system.
It's affecting the food chain.
The measurements are showing that it's affecting the food chain clear down at the level of the newts, the frogs, the life cycle of the fishes, and so forth, which eventually works its way up to affect us.
So we should be watching these indicator species very, very carefully and recognizing that very likely we're causing the problem.
As we take down the forest, the rainforest, and as we venture into places we've never been before, we seem to be getting more Ebolas, more mad cow diseases, more viruses that we can't explain and can't deal with.
Nature has a way, and I think my model that I present in this book goes a long way toward helping us understand how this takes place.
Essentially, nature is an evolving, intelligent organism.
We don't think of it as an organism due to our scientific history.
We think of it as inanimate particles.
But the Lovelock Gaia hypothesis that everything is interconnected and interrelated, more like an organism, is probably a more productive way of thinking about nature.
It's very close to the Native American model and virtually all of the early models.
And I think we will find it very productive if we continue to develop that model of the interconnectedness of things and how everything relates to each other.
And the fact that these effects take place is hardly disputable.
It is the meaning or the interpretation that is in question here.
My guest is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
He'll be right back.
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A lot of the film and video that was taken on the moon, a lot of film and video that's been taken in space for that matter, never seems, according to my faxer from Memphis, to show stars.
And people have always wondered why.
It shows the blackness of space, but you never see the stars.
Sure, that's because if you squeeze the shutter down in order so that you get some definition of the thing you're looking at, you have excluded the starlight, which is much fainter.
But if you were to focus away from the sun and away from reflective light, open the shutter up, you won't see the stars.
The same thing is true on the lunar surface.
If you look through our lunar surface telescope, from the lunar module, you saw stars burberry nicely.
But on the lunar surface, if you look out, you should see stars, but the reflective light is bright enough that your eye shutter squeezes down, your eyeball squeezes down, you don't see them unless you're very well shielded.
And certainly on your camera, if you're going to catch the definition on the surface, you've got to close the shutter and you exclude the stars.
You know, we did a wonderful experiment coming back from the MOOC in which we put eye shades on, darkened the cabin, and then looked.
And sure enough, we got meteor trails flashing across the eyeball, which were gamma rays, tiny little energetic solar particles flashing across the tissue of the eye.
That was all part of the computation of how thick the spacecraft was and so forth.
And sure, during periods of high solar, sunspot activity, we shouldn't be in space, not because of meteor particles, but because of the high energy that could penetrate and damage our bodies.
And there's always a possibility that a high-velocity particle could fracture a spacecraft cabinet.
It did cause a few difficulties in keeping this within the scientific genre instead of a sensational genre.
But we did publish, you know, Dr. Ryan published the results, and everything works out the way it's supposed to, so I can't be too frustrated with Olaf on that regard.
But it would have been helpful if we'd announced it in a little more measured way.
Because it did indeed show us that what we were experiencing works exactly the same way in space as it does here.
And subsequent experiments in the laboratory have shown us that we don't have an inverse squared effect like we do with other electromagnetic effects, that it is truly a non-local effect we're dealing with.
The question I have for you is you speak a lot about spirituality, and you speak about that people will not be so paranoid in the future with what they find out from what you believe we will find out.
Do you see, are you, do you have a religious feeling?
I mean, do you believe that there is a higher being controlling us?
I approach this from the point of view of energy and information, that it's a very natural thing that's taking place, that the information representing human life, or the experiences of human life, are indeed recorded, are indeed preserved is a better word.
I call it the giant hard disk in the sky facetiously.
And we now have a quantum mechanical mechanism which we're writing about and studying Right now, as to how that takes place, we have a pretty good handle, a pretty good theory on what's happening here.
Doctor, I've always personally explained it by just believing that creation, however, it occurred, and a creator not necessarily at all mutually exclusive.
Anyway, I don't really have a question per se other than just a little personal experience that I had.
As far as Dr. Mitchell, when you talk about the experience of the oneness and whatnot, back in 1988, I was standing on the shore of Jackson Lake, Grand Teton Lodge, Grand Teton Park.
And it was a perfectly smooth lake on a cloudless, beautiful night.
And I was standing there.
The whole lake was like a mirror.
And all of a sudden, it's really hard to explain.
It's like you said.
But if you do experience it, you'll never forget it.
But once you have experienced it, you never forget it.
And it's very hard sometimes to explain it to someone else unless they've had the same experience.
Then you don't need to explain it to them.
unidentified
Yeah, about the only thing I can say is that about the closest I could come to it is that it was almost like every single cell in my brain just all of a sudden at once understood the whole thing.
The classical mystical experience is described in the literature as samadhi.
This comes out of the Sanskrit, the ancient language of mysticism.
And I describe this in the book as when the entire brain body is in resonance with the zero-point field.
And it provides a sense of ecstasy, a sense of connectedness, a sense of this ineffable experience that you're trying to describe, and which I try to describe equally ineffectively.
But there is apparently now a physical explanation for this.
And we must ask ourselves, why did nature provide these feelings at all?
And of course, I go into that one in the book, too.
This is a way to look at it, is that the sum total of our experiences can be called information.
Everything before now is just the information about what we've experienced.
In other words, your life is information that you remember.
In other words, everything in your mind right now is just a memory from the past.
So, if we say that that memory, that information, is coherent, that there is a way that it is preserved, that is about as good a scientific description of the soul as one can come up with.
And we now have a mechanism for how that is preserved and carried forward.
That's what I'm working on at the moment.
And it's a testable hypothesis.
Science is going to be able to deal with this very, very short.
Well, I kind of question that, and this is a central point, so you can't be too adamant about it.
But it's the fact that the inner experience of a silicon chip is probably quite different than the inner experience of a carbon-based brain.
So it's not likely that we will have androids that are very good humans.
It's because of this subtle difference in non-locality or inner experience, which goes to our intuition, our ESP, etc., etc.
All of which we humans experience because of the particular nature of our carbon-based mind-brain, spirit, if you will, which is somewhat different than a silicon entity.
Awareness, and this is what I describe in my book, that awareness is a fundamental attribute of nature, of the matter in nature.
That if you start to examine awareness closely, as we in science used to think, that it is a product of our evolved energetic molecules, it turns out you just can't get there from here.
That awareness has to be indigenous to nature itself.
Now, our mentality, our ability to think, to reason, to reflect, to be self-aware, yeah, that's probably due to our evolutionary path.
So go get some tea, and we'll hold you another hour.
My guest is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
This is a priceless opportunity, and we will lay more heavily on the phones in this final hour.
He has written a book.
It's called The Way of the Explorer.
That's a good title, isn't it?
The Way of the Explorer.
Or otherwise, to go where no man has gone before.
Anyway, if you would like an autographed copy of his book, it really is a rare opportunity, an autographed copy of his book, dedicated to, I guess, supply the verbiage you would like.
He's willing to do that.
He's going to be signing a lot of books.
To get it, you send $35 to Post Office Box 67286728.
Lake Worth.
That's two words.
Lake, as in that which holds all that water.
And Worth, as in Fort Worth, Texas, but not Texas.
So Lake Worth, Florida.
Zip code 33461.
Let me get that to you again.
I know a lot of you are rushing for pens.
This would be a priceless opportunity and probably one-time chance to get an autographed copy like this.
The Way of the Explorer.
It is $35.
It will be less in the stores, but of course you will not have a personally autographed version, and that's something to have as a keepsake.
Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida, 33-461.
And I would like to thank you all for participating.
If you would like to either speak with Dr. Mitchell or you're welcome to send a fax with a question.
Let me give you my fax number.
Here in Nevada, it is Area Code 702-727-8499.
Now, I ask that you hold it to three pages, please.
No more than that.
I prefer one page, if you can do that.
A faxed question at Area Code 702-727-8499.
And so there you have it.
An evening with somebody who's been to the moon.
It's always been a dream of mine to be able to ask these kinds of questions to somebody who's done something that I Dr. Mitchell said I may, but I suspect I may not ever get to the moon.
In fact, that is a good question, I suppose, when we come back here in a moment, to ask whether any of us may have an opportunity to go.
You never know.
I never thought that I would get to fly at Mach 2 Plus, but I did.
I got to go to Paris in the Concorde, so who knows?
Maybe an opportunity will present itself, and I will get to go to the moon yet.
Just that I'm not betting on it.
So when we've got somebody here who's actually been, it is indeed a priceless opportunity.
More of it coming up in a moment from the high desert.
You're listening to the American CBC Radio Network.
It is indeed, by the way, if you'd like to get a copy of this morning's program with Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell, you can do so by calling 1-800-917-4278.
We have done a number of programs on something called HAARP.
I bet you're familiar with HAARP.
It's up in Alaska, and it is ostensibly a project to heat the ionosphere, in effect, boring a hole through the ionosphere, in order to study radio or improve radio propagation, ostensibly, or to look for caverns or bunkers beneath the Earth.
In other words, to geographically map what's below the surface of the Earth.
There are a lot of people concerned about harp.
Dr. Nick Begich in Alaska wrote a book called Angels Don't Play This Harp.
Do you know anything about the angelic nature or lack of it of harp?
On the lunar surface, it was the difficulty of our navigation on a presumably relatively flat surface, pointing out it wasn't so flat after all.
And in general, it was this perception of Earth from space, which was so overwhelming to many of us, of seeing this awesome planet we call Earth and getting this new perspective that we're talking about, the epitome, the insight, the wow, the aha.
Well, the way I explain it in my book, and I go into this also, that you tie it together with the remote viewing experiences and it's merely a matter of detail and specificity and again the inner experience from the detail of Bob and Rose work the so-called out of body or astral projection gives the experience of being there but we can't find anything that goes anywhere
what you're doing is bringing, apparently, bringing the information here.
In other words, information is everywhere, and you're simply focusing it from a point of view.
So nothing has to go anywhere in order to perceive that information.
Another way of looking at it is that we're here and everywhere simultaneously.
in that uh it is it is simply a transformation of the viewpoint of information that exists and information apparently exists everywhere simultaneously I had the honor of interviewing Dr. Monroe before he died and I found his information to be absolutely captivating are you do you believe that I or that any or that a human being sufficiently trained and
and disciplined could take roughly the same trip you took without all the expense you do.
Part of the work we did in the laboratory was with several psychics.
Ingo Swann, a very noted one, was able to do this and to bring back information from some of the larger and outer planets that was only verified later by NASA flyby.
So some of the work in remote viewing precisely gathers that sort of information.
Now it turns out that the detail can be quite good.
It can also be misleading sometimes because we do filter that through our own brain body, our own information mechanism.
But with good training and putting aside biases, quite often the information is startlingly accurate.
Well, we found rocks and we found that they are, of course, the same minerals that we find on Earth because the periodic table of elements is the same in the universe.
But the combinations and the processes that form the rocks are clearly quite different, which is what we set out to discover.
What are the processes on the moon that are different than the processes on Earth?
And by and large, they're described by the lack of the lighter elements like oxygen, hydrogen, all of which boiled off very early in the lunar process because of the reduced gravity, the smaller size.
Sure.
And they were present here on Earth.
But what they did was give us clues as to how the moon was formed, which in turn gives us clues as to how our own Earth came about.
I haven't read the most recent literature, but they were formed at about the same time, early in the process, and apparently from the same giant mix.
were i'm maybe a little tentative here i believe that they have had a long long history of separate as being independent entities but they have been may have been in conjunction at one time there's one theory and i'm a little confused here because i haven't studied it in quite a number of years there was one theory that uh.
the great part of the pacific ocean is a place where like Siamese twins they were separated at one point indeed I'm not sure whether that theory has held up or not but and I'll have to beg off without reading the the most recent literature all right dear art please ask Dr. Mitchell about crop circles what's his opinion that's something I know you know Linda how matter of fact I think she interviewed you for this coming dreamland this Sunday what do you
Well, they are odd, and I'm not enough of an expert on those, nor have I studied them personally to be able to offer anything that's very valid.
And certain of them certainly have already been described or admittedly created by hoax.
That doesn't mean they all have.
And I guess I have to remain open-minded on it and say I don't know the answer.
Let's get some more data here.
unidentified
right east of the Rockies you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell where are you please yes hello Northern Florida well college student there's kind of late of ours there indeed glad the affiliate's hanging on there bless them Dr. Mitchell you in the course of the interview there well the zero point well Mr. Hoagland referred
to it as the hyperdimensional physics etc is that I have well knowing a member of the space program for many years now going in a great detail is that the spiritual to be quite honest here if you gentlemen would like to expound especially yourself Dr. Mitchell Mr. Bell you're quite up there as well is that what I have been somewhat
educated to is the spiritual the truly the spiritual endeavor is something that we are truly Expounding upon here, and the scientific is truly just a just a well, a tad of a notch below that, in a way, so to speak.
As a matter of fact, the thesis here is that we're in a natural universe, and that, by and large, it is explainable and knowable, and that if it is not, that will show up, too.
But so far, it seems to be explainable and knowable, and certainly what we call the spiritual is an intimate, personal part of our existence.
But I don't find it never-never land, supernatural, anything any more hierarchically above or below.
I don't use those terms, above, below, and in a hierarchical sense.
It just is.
And it's a part of the universe that we experience.
right now we've got a direct care how worried was nasa that you might Were they concerned that you might bring back a little bug or a virus or something that you would step on and cling to you on the moon?
And we were the last flight to be post-flight quarantined.
We were also the first flight to be pre-flight quarantined.
So we had a double dose of it both before and after.
why the pre-flight was that to a little Oh, that's right.
And got bumped from the flight because of it, which, as it turned out, Ken helped get them back.
So, as Jim Lovell says, blessings come in disguises.
But we were pre-flight quarantined to prevent disease from getting into space, and we were post-flight quarantined to keep space disease from getting here.
When Alan Shepard came on the crew, we were slated to replace Gordon Cooper.
We were slated to do the Apollo 13 flight.
And NASA headquarters suggested that since Alan had not been in training for some time, he ought to take a little more time to train and negotiated a crew switch with Jim Lovell's crew, which was then Apollo 14.
Well, I was doing exactly, if you saw Apollo 13, I was doing exactly in the lunar module what Ken Manningly was doing in the command module.
Learning how to fly that beast as a lifeboat, low power, no power, manually.
It's kind of like learning to take your sailboat on the open seas, or let's say your dinghy on the open seas, and turn it into a lifeboat to bring the major craft home.
Very rare opportunity, three-hour opportunity of that, to speak to somebody who's been where we haven't.
The moon, he's Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell, and he'll be back in just a moment.
I have a little catching up to do here.
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Both of them available from the Seacrane Company at 9 o'clock this morning or 7.30 Monday morning.
And the number to call is 1-800-522-8863.
I've been in shortwave many years, and I can tell you it's more than a radio.
It's the beginning of a hobby and an eye-opener.
1-800-522-8863.
I don't have to tell you what's happening to telecommunications.
It's incredible.
It's not just a technical revolution.
There's an explosion of opportunity going on, business opportunity.
Microtech is one of the premier communications companies that's had the strength and foresight to grab a big chunk of the hot new SMR market.
Specialized mobile radio.
Remember SMR because you're going to be hearing a lot more about it in the future.
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Of course, you've got to meet some investor qualifications, but if you do, they'll send a free video and all the information you're going to need to make the right decision.
Call toll-free, 1-800-444-1049.
Ensure your financial future.
Call 1-800-444-1049.
That's 1-800-444-1049.
If you've got hard water, you've got a hard problem.
You've suffered long enough now, haven't you?
It puts white spots on your car when you wash it.
It builds in your pipes and your water heater and costs you a lot of money and possibly a big plumbing bill one day.
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It's been working in my home now for two years.
I know it'll work for you in 90 days or they buy it back.
You get your money back.
Look, in a whole year, we've never had a single customer complaint.
So, order today.
Call GMX and get it on the way.
The number is 1-800-40-60-GMX.
Again, 1-800-4060-GMX.
Okay, I'm going to plug the doctor's book for him again.
If you'd like an actual, the book is The Way of the Explorer.
Good title, huh?
If you'd like a signed, dedicated copy, this is your one big shot to get it.
It's $35, and the way you get it is supply the name you would like it dedicated to.
Send off your $35.
Check our money order.
I don't recommend cash.
You shouldn't really should not ever send cash in the mail.
Doctor, my one, a little earlier we talked about whether I would ever have a chance to fly as you flew or in any other way.
I had one great experience, Doctor, and that was I flew in the Concorde from this country to Paris at Mach 2 Plus, and they let me go up into the cockpit at Mach 2, and it was all very exciting.
And I remember putting my hand on the window when we were doing about Mach 2, and this thing was roaring along, and the window was so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it.
When you leave the Earth, Doctor, and you leave the Earth's gravitational effect and you're suddenly weightless, can you explain to people who have probably always wondered what that feels like?
The best simulation of it is underwater if you're a scuba diver.
Go underwater, ballast, weightless.
Close your eyes so you don't see which way the bubbles go and remain motionless.
That's the way it feels.
Or if you happen to be a pilot, you can go up and do a ballistic trajectory and kind of float like a rock floating through the sky, and you'll get the same feeling.
Well, we conditioned because some folks had inner ear vertigo disorientation.
We went up and practiced in our T-38 trainers doing all sorts of aerobatic maneuvers to push ourselves right to the verge of sickness and vertigo and train the inner ear so that we could control it.
Yes, but at that moment, when you were all up in that capsule up on top of that great big potential bomb, there must have been a moment just before launch when you all looked at each other, busy as you must have been.
We sort of looked at each other and said, Okay, guys, here we go.
Wild Carline, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
Hi.
unidentified
Yes, good morning, Edgar.
I'm a retired Air Force officer who had the occasion about 20 years ago to invite Buzz Aldrin up to Mellis Air Force Base for an award ceremony and hosted him for a couple of days.
I consequently got to talk to him at length.
And while he was open to talking about his problems and confusion, he was reluctant to talk about his experiences and sightings of the UFOs.
Was it that time, and is there still a precondition to talking about those kind of encounters, sites?
Now, not everyone is able to exercise it as effectively as this gentleman can.
It probably has a genetic component that allows us to manifest it, but it's really more the neural connections in the brain.
We're now very convinced, as a matter of fact, this is part of what we're trying to make some visuals with the North Tower Film Group on these areas.
We're now quite convinced that we can train people to do all of these things, particularly if we begin prenatally.
The brain is like any muscle in the sense that its capabilities, you either use them or lose them.
And it's amazing the number of capabilities that we have as very, very young children, that because we don't exercise them or they are negated by doubting parents, those neurological connections then are pruned off.
Nature does that.
Either use them or lose them.
But it turns out you can get them back, some of them, with arduous work much later in life.
So they're not lost forever.
But we all seem to have these rather amazing capabilities.
I call them creative capabilities.
It goes to the whole area of healing, psychokinetic stuff, the things that Uri Galler does, the healers that I work with, the gentleman that's our caller.
Everybody has these capabilities latent.
And I'm convinced that they're emerging.
We will learn to use them better.
They're a part of our right-left brain complex that we can very quickly learn to use better if we put an effort to it.
And quite often someone else can help us get out of the way.
So we've got to get our mind out of the way.
I think the actual energy itself Is the basic energy comes from within the body, and that repository, the source of that energy, is the zero-point field.
I think that more than likely, and this is speculative stuff, that probably the people that use acupuncture, the ancient Orientals that learned acupuncture, that the little acupuncture needles are probably the mechanism for accessing the zero-point field.
So they're an energetic mechanism.
And it's both.
It is both the healing comes from within ourselves, but an external healer helps us access it.
Me and a friend of mine discussed something about actual artificial intelligence.
I'd like to know if the government or he or a group of his comrades have been working on anything like this, artificial intelligence in the form like a cyborg or a robot?
That brings me to a very important point, whether it's the HAARP project that I touched on a little while ago, or it's scientists doing medical experimentation.
For example, and I certainly don't necessarily object to it, but there was an experiment in San Francisco in which they attempted to inject a baboon's immune system into a human being, who had AIDS, and virtually destroyed his immune system and tried to substitute a baboon's.
And the scientists, after they announced it, doctor, said, well, yes, there is some danger to humankind that some virus that was from the baboon may be introduced to human beings in this way.
Some danger, but they went ahead and did it and sort of told us about it afterwards.
So we are getting ahead of things in a lot of cases.
Scientists are into areas where, to me, it's a little worrisome.
Do you think that the race between technology and our ability to control it morally or ethically is going to be lost, or are we going to catch up to it and say to ourselves, now wait a minute, let's think a little bit before we do this.