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April 26, 1996 - Art Bell

03:06:13

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Edgar Mitchell - An Extraordinary Career

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01:22:05

dr edgar mitchell

01:11:43

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Call art bell toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly what it is.
		Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Art Bell.
		We're just going to be here rocking through the night, about 1 a.m.
		Pacific, an hour from now.
		Dr. Edgar Mitchell will get it out.
		The Phone 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell will be here.
		That should be interesting.
unidentified		Otherwise, we're talking of the news, and it's not good news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Things in this country surely are changing.
		That six-year-old may be charged with attempted murder, premeditated murder.
		There are now signs that this child actually premeditated trying to beat this baby to death.
unidentified		Nobody knows what to do about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It really is a problem.
		Crimes of this sort on the increase 300% the last decade.
		You want to shake your head?
unidentified		Go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's all I've been able to do with it.
		What do you do with a six-year-old child who...
		He is, the six-year-old family's family was being harassed.
		In Georgia, there's been the arrest of two men, they say militia connected, or claim to be in the militia.
		One of the men, commander of a militia, was making bombs, pipe bombs, and burying them against the day when they'd have to be used against the government.
		It's a strange world.
		May you live in interesting times, the curse went, with more.
		Art, did you go to Shepard Air Force Base after Lackland?
		If so, what squadron were you in and what was your FSC?
		No, not Shepard.
		I went to Amarillo after tech school.
		And then he asks, where was I when President Kennedy was assassinated?
		Everybody remembers that, of course, and I was in the hospital as a worker at Lackland at the moment of the assassination.
		And, of course, I'll never forget that.
		I was, for your edification, my FSC was a 90250.
		I was a medic in the Air Force.
		All right, back to the lines.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, alright.
unidentified		This is Tim from Indiana.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, I had a question for the astronaut.
		All right.
		In regards to, like, oh, now I'm having a problem remembered.
		Here, I'll get it.
		When they were having to maneuver the spaceship to go to the moon, were there any times in which they were flying there that they had problems with, you know, their guidance or anything like that?
		Because after watching the Apollo 13, I kind of wondered how he felt, you know, going to the moon right after that happening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's a very good question, and you can be sure I'll ask it.
		You can be sure I'll ask it.
		Sure.
		The mission after 13 must have been something of a terror.
		How could they know there would not be a repeat?
		The 13 astronauts missing it by that much.
		Escaping by that much.
		How could they not be very concerned that there would be a repeat?
		I'm sure they were.
		That is a good question.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Well, good evening, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, actually.
unidentified		I'm calling from KSIRO, or Santa Rosa.
		I actually live in Rona Park, California, about 50 miles north of the bay.
		I'm calling because I've pretty well followed the tragedy of the six-year-old for some time.
		And you know, there's one thing that is a question that I have never been answered.
		Maybe somebody knows that where were the parents or the caretakers of these children when this happened?
		It seems strange that a one-month-old child would be left unattended.
		And no one heard it cry, no one heard it fall, no one heard of the assault on its little body.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I find that you said you've been following this very closely, so you should have those answers for us.
unidentified		I've never read a thing about that, never heard a thing about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That makes two of us.
unidentified		Oh, that's true of you too?
		Yeah.
		And any of these children, actually the 60-year-old or the 80-year-old, are you a parent?
		I'm apparently grandparent both.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, then, you remember, I too was a parent.
		there are times i guess when you're in another room another part of the house Would that baby not cry?
unidentified		Would that baby not do...
unidentified		Would they not hear the current?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		maybe they covered its mouth i mean from what i've heard they intended that a little boy too Excuse me.
		From what I heard, they intended to kill it, right?
		That's what they're charging this six-year-old with.
		So if you're going to do that, you might cover up its little mouth, mightn't you?
unidentified		Sure.
		Sure.
		And regarding Dr. Mitchell, I'm wondering if there was no cost involved.
		Would he recommend the rest of us take a vacation on the moon?
		What about the stress getting there and getting back?
		Would that be a trip to take?
		It would be worth it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you?
unidentified		I don't think so.
unidentified		I don't know if being on the moon would be worth the trip going and coming.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, it would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		Oh, great.
		I'm glad you'd like it.
		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd go in a second.
		I'd go in a second.
		Thank you very much.
		Sure, I'd go in a second.
		You know, but that's me.
		Oh, you bet.
		Would it be worth it?
		A few days cooped up in a spaceship?
		With no gravity?
		Would it be worth it?
		Oh, hell yes.
		I would do it in a second.
		I'd do it in a second.
		Especially at my age.
		Maybe a young person would think harder about it.
		I don't know.
		I can't imagine it.
		There are, though, a lot of people who wouldn't even think about it.
		I wouldn't hesitate for a second.
		People risk their lives, given the odds with a record they had for much less.
		And even though we're going to get Dr. Mitchell's words this morning about what it was like on the moon, I guess there are no words that would do justice to actually being there, are there?
		First time caller online, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Ark.
		Yes.
		Sail from Tacoma.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Ed Mitchell and Alan Shepard, when they were descending, their landing radar was out.
		And I was always curious if they were going to land without it.
		Keep me asking that.
		I'd appreciate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying when they were headed down to the moon, their landing radar was out?
unidentified		It was non-functional.
		It turned out to be it was just locked up.
		They got it working again before their limit.
		But it was out when they were going down, and there was a point in time when they were not supposed to land if it didn't come on.
		And, of course, it came on.
		But I was just curious if he had any insight on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you, had you been on that mission, I mean, to get that far, to be in the limb, and then to have the landing radar fail, I mean, you're halfway down or whatever, would you keep going?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you say, sorry, Houston, missed that transmission?
unidentified		Me?
unidentified		Well, you probably would have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you abort the mission?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'd keep going, huh?
unidentified		Well, he was in charge.
		Of course, Alan was the man landing it, and it was his final say.
		And if it was up to me, I probably would have, because you went that far, and crash, who cares?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, Houston.
unidentified		Yeah, right.
		I didn't catch that last time.
		Transmission was terrible.
		I was really into it as a child and have all the tapes on that.
		And in fact, I got that from Moonshot, the documentary by Slayton.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I was just curious, if you could ask him that, I thought it would be kind of interesting.
		Okay.
		Okay, thanks a lot.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll try to get all these.
		Now, obviously, I'm beginning to compile quite a list of questions here.
		So I'll do what I can.
		And I have no idea for how long we have him.
		So we'll try and get as much of this in as we're able.
		First-time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		This is Janine from Bellingham.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Janine.
unidentified		Hi.
		I've got some insights about this six-year-old.
		All right.
		Yeah, I was flipping through the channels of my day off and looking at some of the morning time cartoons that are on.
		And it always seems to be the good guys and the bad guys and the one that comes and saves the day.
		And I was just really appalled at, you know, it's okay to kill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't, Janine, I don't think it was TV.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How old are you, huh?
unidentified		Me?
unidentified		I'm 33.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		33, all right.
		When I was a child, I watched all of those tunes.
		I watched, especially The Roadrunner.
		You know, where in one scene the Roadrunner is, actually Wiley Coyote is absolutely destroyed or gets smushed or something, and he's back up and bouncing around in the next scene.
		I watched all of that, and that didn't lead me in any sort of direction of assuming that violence was all right.
		I never for a second believed that.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Well, I have a six-year-old and a nine-year-old kids, and both of them are extremely compassionate, you know, loving children, and it wouldn't affect them, but I think a child that wasn't really brought up in a super loving home, was bonded with the mother at birth and really loved, might become kind of disconnected from society and just kind of buy into that violent thing.
		I don't know.
		It's hard to understand, but when I saw these children's cartoons that are on, it just kind of struck me that maybe that was part of the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate the call, and we'll think about that, of course.
		And I did think about that, and I've seen the experts endlessly talking on CNN and elsewhere, you know, about this thing.
		They talk about television and about cartoon characters, but hell.
		I watched all that stuff, and I bet a lot of you did, too.
		And I don't for a second believe that that is the factor that could precipitate a 300% change in these kinds of crimes in a decade.
		I don't believe that for a second.
		There's something else at work here.
		Cartoons were always that way.
		Remember Tweety Bird?
		I mean, we could go on and on and on and on with cartoons where there was violence in one second, a curse smash, a kaboom, a fall off a cliff, oh, let me document the ways.
		And then in the next scene, they're back up, unsmushed, and back at it.
		And the charge is, well, children see this kind of thing and they assume that they're not really doing any harm.
unidentified		Bull.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry to say I believe that child.
		I believe.
		My belief.
		Knew what it was doing.
		The signs are that it did.
		And now, the more that I think back on it at even six, I would have.
		I knew.
		Didn't you?
		Didn't you understand death and dying even at six?
unidentified		Sure, you did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's true.
unidentified		Hey, I was trying to get through last night to speak to Mr. Holand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you turn your radio off for us, please?
unidentified		I sure did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's good.
unidentified		Question for you.
		Now, I've heard references to Zachariah Sitchin, and he was actually the first time I'd ever read of the Sidonia region and the pyramids and other structures that are on Mars.
		I was wondering if you knew anything about, say, corresponding theories that Mr. Sitchin might have, along with Mr. Hoglan?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, you'd want to read a book called The Twelve Planets, sir, by Zachariah Sitchin.
		Twelfth Planet.
		And a series of books.
		We'll have Zachariah Sitchin back on again.
		He is a very, very interesting guest.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Caller.
unidentified		My name is Phil.
unidentified		I'm calling from KC Mill Country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Phil.
unidentified		Mike Murphy Country, we call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
unidentified		Listen, may change the subject just a little bit, but I'm wondering on this Gordon-Michael scallion situation, his predictions.
unidentified		I haven't heard much out of him lately.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he hasn't been on the air.
		I got a fax from Gordon's people the other day, and he's on a break.
		He has long periods of time where after taking or having visions, he is not well.
		Oh, really?
		Not truly sick, but very exhausted.
		And so he's on a break right now.
		He did make a prediction on paranormal borderline regarding Phobos.
		And his assistant, Harold, said I'd prefer not to comment until we get an actual script of what Gordon Michael said on paranormal borderline.
		So otherwise, we'll be commenting in the blind.
		So that's where we are with that.
unidentified		One more thing, if you don't mind.
unidentified		On his set of earthquakes that he predicted, it's three sets of four.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Four sets of three?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Three sets of four.
unidentified		Three sets of four.
unidentified		Where are we at on that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not complete.
unidentified		I didn't think so.
		I didn't think so.
		We're in the third set.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'll know, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for that.
		If it completes, trust me, you'll know.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, this is Steve in Portland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Steve.
unidentified		And my question for Edgar would be about what happens in the debriefing process after they come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean where they tell you what you can say and what you can't?
unidentified		Yeah, exactly.
		I mean, because it was always mysterious.
		You know, they'd pick them up out of the ocean and then they'd be gone for a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe in the beginning they were doing quite an isolation period after they came back.
unidentified		And then the other thing would be, was he anticipating finding any great discovery on the moon, you know, as he was going there?
unidentified		And then could he have told us about it if he had?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Those are all fair questions.
		Thank you.
		I'll consider those.
		Or maybe more to the point, what did you see that you haven't told anybody about?
		You know what kind of answer you're going to get to that question, though, don't you?
		Actually, I guess I can't say that.
		I have no idea what kind of answer we're going to get to these questions, so I will not presume.
		With a little bit of luck, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14's Edgar Mitchell, coming up in about 37 minutes or so.
		THE END You hear this music on my show just about every night.
		Sometimes several times in one night.
		It's the awesome music of my favorite group, Cusco.
		Well, now listen, they've got a special offer only for my listeners.
unidentified		If you like Burmac, you're going to love these.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You get the Cusco 2000 album, plus Cusco 2002, and the best-selling album, Mystic Island.
		All three CDs with a discount price of $39.95 or $27.95 for cassettes enlisted.
		That includes postage.
		But I'm not done.
		At $5 more, and Higher Octave will include two more CDs.
		Sampler CDs full of music of the same genre.
		In other words, five CDs for less than the cost of three.
		Call Higher Octave at 1-800-562-8283.
		Mention my name, Mark Bell.
		Save up to 29% of the regular prices.
		Again, that number, 1-800-562-8283.
		Higher Octave and Cusco.
		All right, just a little promo here.
		We did a full five hours with Richard Hoagland last night.
		It was an amazing five hours, actually.
		And if you would like a copy of that program with Richard Hoagland, or you would like to order our newsletter, and let me tell you right now, we have got an issue coming up, the cutoff date of which is Sunday night, right after Dreamland.
		It has got some of the most definitively beautiful crop circle photographs in it that you're ever going to see in your life.
		The next issue is going to have arts parts or the Roswell stuff, those photos in it.
		But this one you don't want to miss.
		So whether you want to order our newsletter, get a copy of the show last night, whatever, here is the number.
		It's 1-800-917-4278.
		That's 1-800-917-4278.
		Didn't hear the whole thing.
		Also, coming this week on Dreamland, Robert Ghostwolf is Sunday, a Lakota Iroquois shaman on Native American prophecy.
		And so that should be most interesting.
		If you don't have Dreamland as of yet, contact your radio station, whoever that is, and ask politely that they try to find room to carry it.
		And they can do that by carrying it live or offsetting the hours.
		they can do it any way they like.
		Let's see, there's something else I'm supposed to do here, too.
		Mother's Day cometh.
		You know, it's what, a week away, a little better than a week away, something like that.
		What is today?
		No, it's two weeks away.
		It's almost the middle of the month, 13th, 14th, something like that Sunday, I think.
		It would be a good time now to order absolutely fresh flowers for your mom.
		Because there is a chance you will not catch my programs coming up toward Mother's Day.
		And you can, in fact, order right now.
		Just get it out of the way, get it done.
		And you can actually then forget it, because it'll be done.
		You can be sure that FedEx will be there just before Mother's Day.
		Flowers in hand, this giant triangular box full of miniature carnations, you can be sure they'll be there.
		But if you blow it off and you forget it, well, you may not hear the program again.
		Cash the number, and then it'll be too late for you.
		So look, write the number down I'm going to give you.
		These are miniature carnations, more than anybody's ever seen, with a card from you, your message, your name, happy birthday, Mother's Day, Mom.
		Your name at the bottom, sign at the bottom, all handwritten.
		That's quite a bit for $42.95.
		Plan ahead, do it now.
		1-800-562-6438.
		That's 1-800-562-6438.
		Absolutely fresh flowers.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Charles.
		St. Louis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Charles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, John.
unidentified		Fine.
		Just one little question.
		Well, the guy, he took my question about the debriefing period and the period of isolation.
		You know, how long would he be in the debriefing period?
		But one other little question was about the gravity.
		I would like to know how did the gravity feel?
		Could he jump as high as he could on Earth or?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My question went the same way.
		In other words, I want to know if the whole thing was fun.
		And that, to me, getting up in zero or near zero gravity, particularly near zero gravity, that would be fun.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Jumping around.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sort of like Superman.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah, that is basically all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what I want to know, too?
unidentified		What's that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We went to the moon, went to the moon, went to the moon, now we haven't gone to the moon in 30 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How come?
unidentified		That year, that stiff me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd love to hear the answer to that one.
		Thank you very much.
		30 years.
		We did it.
		We did it again and again and again.
unidentified		Then we just flat stopped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How come?
		There ought to be a good answer for that one, shouldn't there?
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First time comments can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Here again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, I am indeed here.
		At the top of the hour, if all goes well, and I say if all goes well because one never knows...
		Dr. Edgar Mitchell is going to be here at the Apollo 14 hours.
		Can I walk on the moon?
		And here's a good question from somebody out there.
		Art, I can imagine the gambit of emotions that one would experience as you look from the moon to your world.
		The one in which you experienced your childhood and life experience.
		Art, please ask Dr. Mitchell, what was his first emotion and question at the moment he realized out there, your vision of the moon and universe from the eyes of his youth was now at its peak.
		Did he ever experience sadness for the people on Earth, and if so, why?
		Sadness for the people on Earth.
		I wouldn't think that would be the emotion, but we will surely ask him.
		West of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Top of the morning.
unidentified		Oh, good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		I lost my train of thought.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you never got it.
unidentified		Actually, I want to comment on that.
unidentified		A guy that called about a week ago, I thought that was the most hilarious thing I've ever heard in my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which guy are you talking to?
unidentified		The one that was calling you a demon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		That was such a good call that we've taken it and put it up on the internet on my webpage.
		You can actually download that call and listen to it.
unidentified		Oh, you're kidding me.
		The guy who thought I was a devil's toe jam, right?
		I was laughing so hard I was rolling on the floor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know it's a good call.
unidentified		So it was a good call.
unidentified		And also, I'm not sure if the American people are ready either to find out about UFOs or...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've said this, and people take me to task for it, but I think the Brookings report is probably accurate, and that really puts me in a stinking position with the materials that I've got and the report I'm going to be getting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Assuming that it would come back anything but normal materials, you know, I'd have to sit down and think about it.
unidentified		Exactly.
unidentified		And also, about that six-year-old boy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		What the heck do you do?
unidentified		I mean, it is a very sad thing that the 30-day-old baby is probably going to die, and I'm really sorry for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		I appreciate the call.
		The father and mother of the baby, who had three other children, get this, folks.
		According to the Associated Press, we're out shopping, grocery shopping at the time of the beating.
		They had not taken the young Ignatio along because he had a cough.
		They worried the chilly evening air would make it worse.
		So the parents of this little baby weren't home.
		They left it home alone.
		Who the hell would leave a 30-day-year-old child at home alone?
		There's one good point.
		Now, so the parents of the infant were not even home at the time, and they don't say anybody was left there with the infant.
unidentified		So.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's crazy.
		That's crazy.
		Never left my son alone for a second.
		Well, alone maybe in a room.
		That's what I speculated about earlier, but not alone in the house.
		Of course not.
		There could be a fire.
		Anything could happen.
		So that's an amazing bit of news.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Um, yes.
		I'd like to ask you two questions for tonight.
		Um, now, what was this thing about this guy calling you a demon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you had to hear the call.
unidentified		Um, can you sh tell me about it, basically?
unidentified		About what the basic of the conversation was?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You already covered it.
unidentified		He just called you a demon and hung up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		He kept calling me a demon for at least three minutes.
		The devil's mouthpiece.
		The devil's toe jam.
unidentified		What did he say before that, to make your hand?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		The man of the burning pits of hell.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		And the six-year-old boy, do you think he should get the chair?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The rock, what would that be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The high chair?
unidentified		No, electric chair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
unidentified		Did that 30-year-old 30-month-old or whatever die?
unidentified		Or is he, what's going on with that baby?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		30-day-old baby, sir.
		The baby is in critical condition on life support.
		Has been that way for now into the sixth day.
unidentified		So that you might know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And of course, when they're in critical condition, it's unknown whether they're going to make it or not.
		Okay, wow, card line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		Dave calling from KEX Country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dave.
unidentified		Am I to understand, Art, that you don't feel that cartoons or TV in general have any effect on children?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't say that.
unidentified		Okay, you said cartoons don't, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't say that.
		What I said was, I watched cartoons all my young life.
		How old are you, Dave?
unidentified		I'm 38.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		38.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you watch cartoons when you were a kid?
unidentified		I sure did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many murders have you committed?
unidentified		You mean counting this month?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		None.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, so the cartoons, you know, Roadrunner and otherwise, didn't affect me.
		I knew they were cartoons.
		I understood the difference between cartoons in real life.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I never murdered, well, I did put a big shovel mark in the middle of my sister's nose, but I never murdered anybody, and you didn't, and I don't think the average person did.
		So I think it's controversial.
		I do think television has some effect, but I don't think it's turned our youngsters in the last decade into murderers.
unidentified		Well, the reason I bring that up is because I lived with a woman who had a child who used to watch the He-Man cartoon.
unidentified		Are you familiar with that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
unidentified		Well, one day I caught the sick.
		He was sick at the time, and he took his little brother's head and stepped on it.
		It's like just like the cartoon.
		Now, I'm not saying he's going to turn into a murderer or anything like that, but I do feel with the psychological studies where they show the adult modeling against one of those dolls that you hit, and it comes right back up.
		You familiar with what I'm talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you honestly think that cartoons are showing any less death, dying, or smooshing in the last decade than they did in decades previous?
unidentified		Well, I don't remember the He-Man type of thing, those He-Man or those Wonder or whatever they are that show actually more humans.
		I mean, seeing the Roadrunner and the Wiley Coyote, I think I'm not saying that was any less, but I'm just saying that now they show more of what looks like mommy and daddy on the TV screen that are beaten up on cartoon characters.
		That's all I'm trying to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, I appreciate it.
		Thank you.
		I don't rule it out.
		I've always thought that television does have some effect.
		And I've always thought that there ought to be some sort of, you know, you hate the word censorship, but there's some restraint shown in the period of time during which children get home from school, a lot of them latchkey, and the later evening programming.
		You know, there's kind of a window in there where they come home, open the door, shut it, grab a Coke, sit down in front of the television, and away you go.
		I don't think it's the main and or only factor.
		But it probably has an effect.
		I think it has an effect.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Whoops, would have been.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Ari.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		This is C.J. from Blanthrop, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi CJ.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I've got a couple things for you.
		One is a what if and the other one is having worked for the dark side of our government in past years.
		Yes, I did.
		And the oath of silence is something taken very seriously by people who work for the dark side of the government.
		And though you might not say that the astronauts worked for the dark side, they truly did.
		They worked for the DOD.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would that apply to people who went to the dark side of the moon?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, I just call the dark side of the government anything to do with the national security.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And I termed it the dark side because there is truly a dark side to our government, and there is to every government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is a dark side to stealth work.
		Yes.
		But it is in the cause of national security.
		That doesn't make it always dark.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or at least people should understand the context of dark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		National security is by nature stealth, and I guess you could say that's dark, but it's not always bad.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, many dark things happen.
		They've been working for nearly 15 years for the dark side of our government.
		I saw plenty of dark things.
		But, you know, so I understand that oath of silence thing, and I think that they're just kind of dribbling this out like you've speculated and others have speculated.
		And this might be a way for them to get about doing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't expect Dr. Mitchell to come on this morning and say, you know, Richard Hoagland's right.
		We didn't tell you about the 20-mile-high structures.
		We just sort of left it out at the time.
		And I don't expect to hear that.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, right.
		I understand that.
		And that comes along with my what-if.
		I want people to imagine this.
		Now, tomorrow, a UFO, a nice large one, lands at the UN and they walk inside and they talk for two hours.
		And the whole time all the world's got TV cameras, you know, CNN and everybody else has got their TV cameras there.
		What do you imagine?
		The percentage of people that would just go absolutely bunkers and think their life is over and the world would just be in a total uproar.
		So I think you're right when you say you don't think that they're ready.
		The Brookings report is probably right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure it is.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		People would just literally freak.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, total anarchy would just take over in a matter of hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hate to believe that, but I'm afraid I do.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I think enough people would just literally lose it because of it.
		I mean, there'd be people jumping out of windows for starters, and another percentage of people would be running out and robbing banks and headed for the hills.
		So I mean, everybody to think about that.
		What if that happened tomorrow?
		What did they think would happen?
		All the people that they know, how many of the people do they know could handle this rationally and some who wouldn't handle this rationally?
		There's enough crazy people already.
		What if this happened?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it would be a mixture, and absolutely true that a lot of people would not handle it well.
		And it would not take a lot of people not to handle it well to cause a big problem.
		So there you are, and I just think that is a fact, and it leaves me in a very tough spot with regard to the materials that I have.
		No question about that.
		Art, May 7th, Paranormal Borderline, is that 9 p.m. Eastern or Western?
		I think it's 9 o'clock here in the West.
		I'm pretty sure it's 9 o'clock, but I'm not positive.
		So check your TV guide.
		All right?
		Richard Hoagland was supposedly to team up with Sarah McLendon.
		What happened?
		Well, they did get together is what happened, and Sarah McGlendon wrote an article about it.
		You should put your hands on that, sir.
		All right.
		Back to the lines.
		First time color line.
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I have something to report that I have an 8mm movie film that is in color that was taken in 1967 and is a view out of an airplane cockpit window.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you turn down your radio, please?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A view, an 8-millimeter film, a view outside an airplane cockpit window?
unidentified		Yes.
		And in the film, I put it under a microscope and I can make out an absolute elliptical shaped object that is glowing with a very bright white light because the light is reflecting into the cockpit window.
		I have 12 years of experience working in technical areas and I work now as, I guess I'm repairing computer robotics boards.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You guess?
unidentified		Well, that's one of the things that I work on, among many other electronic type things.
		Anyway, I have this film, and I'm kind of like worried about how to get it analyzed.
		I'd like some kind of a professional team to look at this.
		I acquired the film.
		I did not take the film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you acquire it?
unidentified		Through a friend of a friend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A friend of a friend.
unidentified		An older lady friend of mine.
unidentified		She acquired the film from some friends of hers who are older gentlemen, and they turned it over to her because they wanted me to make a videotape of the film for them so they could put it on their VCR.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was going to suggest that.
		Get the film converted to video.
		Then you'll be able to supply copies, and you can get several first-generation copies made and get one of those analyzed without risking your original film.
		That's what I guess I would do.
		And most photographic stores can accomplish that for you.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, yes.
unidentified		Are you not speaking with a person at this time?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you a person?
		Oh, yeah.
		I'm speaking with you, and there is a delay.
		Turn your radio off, and you won't worry about it.
unidentified		Oh, well, I thought you still had the lady caller on there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have a delay, sir.
		Oh, okay.
		Turn your radio off.
unidentified		Okay, fine.
		Yeah, a couple quick comments here.
		The matter you mentioned about the telephone, well, the ringing only for so long is that I called the phone company about that, and they claimed that was a policy of the 1-800, the radio station.
		That was your, well, y'all's doing, so to speak.
		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is inaccurate.
unidentified		Okay, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Totally, absolutely, utterly inaccurate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have been as high in the phone company as You can get trying to get it changed.
unidentified		Yeah, because, see, that happened to me two times just tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It happens to everybody, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, it's a little bit annoying.
unidentified		And like I said, I called and talked, and she was vehement about it this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, she is wrong.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Thank you.
		Also, that the oh, yeah, the Unsolved Mysteries had the tubercabra goat sucker thing on again there tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you think?
unidentified		Well, actually, I'm not, I wouldn't be surprised.
		I'm, you know, with all the footage I've seen, I'm going on 40 years old here, and with all the footage I've seen, and this and that with the Yeti, the Sasquatch, the pleasio sort theory of the loch nests, the giant squids, etc.
		I have no problem with that.
		We've got things far beyond the concern about that.
		But the new movie coming out, matter of fact, you mentioned, someone asked you a while back your favorite science fiction movies.
		I'm sure you have seen The Day There's Just Still, 1951.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Long ago.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Michael Rennie, wasn't it?
unidentified		Yes, indeed.
		Excellent actor.
		I wish I could have met that fella.
		Now, the new movie coming up, this Independence Day.
		Yes.
		Any sort of first-hand information, anything that the general public doesn't have any knowledge of?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because everything you're going to see in Independence Day, sir, is absolutely true.
unidentified		Oh, I see.
unidentified		Well, okay, matter of fact, a couple of questions there for Dr. Mitchell there if he comes in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, let's try that.
unidentified		Is that the Nazca Plain in Peru?
unidentified		That seems rather obvious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The what?
unidentified		The Nazca Plain in Peru with all the lines and the Tunguska, matter of fact, I didn't get a chance to ask Mr. Hoagland last night.
		This is so much to golly.
		It's just in Siberia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The explosion.
unidentified		Supposedly it was a Tesla experiment that was off by a couple degrees, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, thank you.
		That's all very controversial.
		Was it something from elsewhere that slammed in?
		Was it a Tesla experiment gone wild?
		Nobody knows.
		Microtech.
		Now, I just know that I don't have to tell you what's happening to telecommunications.
		It's going nuts.
		It's not just a technical revolution, but it's an explosion of opportunity, business opportunity.
		Microtech is one of the premier companies that's had the strength and foresight to grab a big piece of the hot new SMR market, specialized mobile radio.
		Remember SMR because you're going to be hearing a lot about it.
		When it comes to Microtech, the future is now.
		They've already completed SMR stations in major markets like New York, LA, Dallas, Boston.
		They've got more to build while license opportunities last, and that is where you may come in if you qualify as an investor and you're willing to make one free phone call.
		You can discover how a minimum $8,700 put now in the explosive telecommunications industry could return to you $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 or more, plus a yearly income for the rest of your life.
		And yes, it can be part of your IRA or retirement plan.
		So call them.
		Their number is 1-800-444-1049.
		You'll get free information.
		That's 1-800-444-1049.
		I'd be willing to bet that you assume, if you eat good food, that you're getting nutrition and you'll be healthy, right?
		Well, under most circumstances, yes, that would be true.
		But you must understand that lining the wall of your digestive tract is a bacteria.
		Not a bad bacteria, but a good bacteria.
		One you need.
		Because it is the engine that drives the nutrition into your body and the wastes out.
		Now, what can happen to that bacteria?
		Lots of bad things.
		Antibiotics kill it.
		Bad diet, alcohol, drugs, stress, even basic aging reduce that bacteria.
		And as that occurs, the opposite process ensues.
		You get poisons, rashes, get sick, and unfortunately, a lot of the nutrition is simply now waste.
		You don't want that to happen.
		Here's a natural way to replace your body's natural process.
		Megadophilus, Bifidofactor, and Digestilact.
		You'll never remember all those names.
		They happen to be Natron's Healthy Trinity.
		So, get back in step naturally and get Natron's Healthy Trinity.
		Call 1-800-992-3323.
		That's 1-800-992-3323.
		Again, 1-800-992-3323.
		One other little item, $100 bills.
		We've got new ones.
		And all the people that have called me say they are very ugly.
		Very ugly.
		Why didn't they do more testing on what the American people would like and not like?
		They just slammed it together, I guess.
		Everybody I've talked to doesn't like the new hundreds.
		Anyway, that is the least of the reason to be talking about this.
		But they are ugly.
		There is more new ugly money to come.
		Other denominations, new denominations, will be on the way.
		They say that the bills in Russia and elsewhere in the world, $100 U.S. bills, are different internationally.
		That opens the way toward a domestic eventual devaluation, which is no doubt inevitable.
		And I have yet to talk to anybody who's looked into this who would challenge that view.
		It's just inevitable.
		Do the numbers.
		North American trading would be happy to tell you what this will mean to you, what the rest of the story on the new currency is.
		Call them.
		The call is free and the information is free.
		And if you don't take it, then you've just got your head in the economic sand.
		And somebody's going to come along and kick you in the economic rear.
		And you won't even be seeing it coming.
		Remember, the number is 1-800-877-9799.
	The information is free O-charge.
	1-800-877-9799.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Mike from Longmont, Colorado.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Hi, I'd like to talk to you about the bookings report.
		Okay.
		I have a problem with your view in that we wouldn't be able to handle it, or at least the majority of people in the United States wouldn't be able to handle it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I didn't say that they couldn't.
		I said some people clearly would not be able to handle it.
		Do you challenge that?
unidentified		Well, I believe that they wouldn't, but I have a bigger problem with the fact that we're dealing with a deception as it is, and I see that as a larger problem.
		If we start getting to some truth about what's out there and about how everything works, it might end up being more beneficial than non-beneficial.
		Do you understand what I'm saying?
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of people who feel that way.
		But the question is not about them.
		The question is about the, admittedly, the minority, but still a large number of people, numerically, who would go batsoid.
unidentified		I think that's definitely possible, but I think there's a lot of ways to do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, sir, that is definitely the worry.
		Now, we've got to break it off there.
		Heading toward the top of the hour, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, next, maybe.
unidentified		Music Call our bell, toll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut, with us in a moment.
		The new Trope 900 NDL telephone is on sale.
		You have never seen such a sale before.
		It is $159.95.
		Now, that's $20 off to begin with, which is crazy.
		But the Seacrane Company is now throwing in an extra battery and charger along with the deal.
		It's even crazier.
		What a deal.
		This telephone, because it is all digital, is private.
		Nobody sits out there on another telephone, baby monitor or scanner or anything else, listening to you.
		It's private.
		I get about a mile out of mine, but of course I'm in the desert without a lot of intervening geography.
		You might get that or less or more.
		I don't know.
		So you get great distance.
		Best of all, though, it is clear, just like a phone you would plug into the wall.
		So you get all those advantages, and I've never seen a sale like this.
		$159.95 with the extra battery and charger.
		That's the deal.
		Call them in the morning at 9 o'clock, 9 a.m.
		Saturday morning, or 7.30 Monday morning.
		It's 1-800-522-8863.
		That's 1-800-522-8863.
		One correction to the Associated Press article I had.
		The baby that is now in critical condition, was beaten by the six-year-old, was not at home alone, as a matter of fact.
		There was a babysitter there, according to late news.
		Not the best supervision, but not left alone.
		All right.
		Now we go to Florida, and that's where Dr. Edgar Mitchell is.
		Dr. Mitchell, welcome to the program.
		Well, good morning, Art.
		It is really an honor to have you on the show.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I'm pleased to be here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		I've got a million questions, which probably are dumb.
		Everybody asks astronauts these questions, but I've got to do it because I've never heard the answers.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, give me the first 100,000 or so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, all right.
		How did you get picked to be in the Apollo program?
		I guess that's a good place to begin.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I kind of made it my business from 1957 on, after Sputnik went up.
		I'd recognized that humans would probably be right behind robot spacecraft, and I wanted to go along, so I started working on it, on my credentials, 1957, even before there were manned flight much more than a dream.
		It took me nine years, adding to my test pilot credentials, getting a PhD from MIT, and being involved in space development with the military.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it's sort of like you had a list, or you knew what the right stuff was going to be or was going to require, and you began fulfilling it.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's kind of right.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I didn't quite exactly know, but I just kept adding potentials and qualifications and hoping that sooner or later they couldn't ignore me any longer, which turned out to be true, by 1966.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, most people today, because all of this occurred so long ago, have forgotten a lot about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What reminded them about it all was Apollo 13.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And would you say, to the best of your knowledge, that Apollo 13, minus a little bit of dramatic license, was fairly correct?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, there was very little dramatic license in the movie Apollo 13.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		They did a marvelous job of keeping it right on track and very true to actually what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bearing that in mind, and with a lot of people who've seen 13, the movie, going on 14 must have been a bit of a, even though I'm sure by then you were all locked into it and ready, still in the back of your mind, with Apollo 13 just having occurred, you must have worried that a similar thing could have occurred.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		On the contrary.
		Took the position, hey, we've really gone over the spacecraft with a fine-tooth comb.
		The likelihood of something, of lightning striking twice in the same place is pretty small.
		At least it's a nice consolation, whether it's true or not, mathematically true, another matter, but it's a nice consolation.
		The main problem was don't screw up.
		We really were under the gun to fly a good mission, and so to ourselves, don't mess up, do it right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess my simple little question was, and it is a simple question, when you got to the moon, when you got on the moon, was it fun?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Fun?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, was there time in between everything you had to do to just, you know, sort of feel the experience for yourself and have fun?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, there wasn't time.
		Any moment that you took to do that was very brief, stolen.
		The clock did not permit that time.
		But, of course, Alan Shepard took the time to hit a golf ball.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he did.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I took the time to throw a javelin further down his golf ball.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How far did your javelin go?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, both of them went out there a few yards.
		If we hadn't been such cumbersome, tight pressure suits, we could have done a pretty respectable job of throwing things halfway around the moon.
		But those pressure suits were tight and stiff and difficult to work with.
		They went out there a while.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there any chance that should you fall in one of those, you would catch it on a rock or jag it and tear it?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		There's a possibility.
		We were careful with regard to that, watched each other pretty cautiously, kept an eye on each other, worked the buddy system and tried to make sure we didn't fall on anything really sharp.
		But it was a remote probability, but it was still there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If something like that had occurred, would it be automatically fatal, or would there have been time to do a quick patch job, assuming it wasn't a giant tear and something you'd lived through?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		We had ways to overcome small fissures or small holes in the suit, leaks in the suit, for short periods of time.
		We had a buddy system.
		We had an emergency oxygen supply that could hold up for very small leaks.
		And that's about all that we really expected to encounter.
		Were it a massive tear, it would be too difficult to manage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever Have any concern, or did you give any thought to what would have occurred if the LEM had not been able to lift off from the moon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I wonder how they could have handled that from a PR point of view at Houston.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		We had about five ways to back up the engine ignition and the start sequence.
		Fortunately, we didn't have to use any of them, but we had several different backups, the last of which was to run a jumper cable from the descent stage through the hatch into the ascent stage circuit breaker panel.
		I always wondered what would happen when that cable went snaking out through the front door as we left it off.
unidentified		But we never had to use that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there wasn't much thought that anything tragic would be.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was a lot of thought, prior thought, of backup, of creating backups for things that could go wrong.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		But once you've done that, you've done all you can do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We went to the moon and went to the moon and went to the moon, and now we haven't gone to the moon, and it's been 30 years.
		And a lot of people, and I'm one of them, wonder about that.
		Why haven't we been back?
		Why haven't men been back?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		The public hasn't supported it financially.
		That's the reason we cut off the last three flights.
		The public started saying, ho-hum, so what have you done for us today?
		Why go back to Why go back to the moon?
		Scientifically, there is plenty of reason to go back, and eventually we will.
		But we have to garner the public will, public and political will and finances to do it.
		It will happen sooner or later.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much, the Saturn V, that's what you wrote on top of, isn't it?
		That was quite an incredible booster.
		How much thrust did that develop?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		A little over 7 million pounds, about 7.3 million pounds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's hard to imagine what it's like sitting on top of a giant firecracker, isn't it?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I compare it to the vertical subway ride, kind of shaking, rattling, and rolling as the chemicals move the vector around.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And with acceleration, you're getting pushed back in the seat ever more firmly until you reach first stage cutoff of a minute or so, about a minute and 20 seconds of flight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many Gs at that point?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Not too many, a little over four.
		The liftoff is relatively light.
		It's the emergency reentry that pushes you up to high G loads, potentially up to 16.5 G. We practice that, and it's not a comfortable feeling to practice emergency aborts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is human endurance for G's, roughly?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Depends on how you're taking it, transverse G's, through the body, like we were taking it.
		You're going to start to black out above 16 if you sustain it too long.
		But you can take a jerk or short impulses higher than that.
		You may tear a few blood vessels, but you'll survive it.
		I don't really know what the absolute limit is.
		They tested that out in the White Sands.
		Colonel Harold Staff tested it out in the White Sands back in the 60s with rocket sleds that they brought to a screeching halt up to 20 or 30 G's, as I recall.
unidentified		Wow.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And now they sustained a bit of damage sometimes doing that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there any surprise for you on the moon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was there anything you found on the moon that you didn't expect to find?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, not along the lines you're talking about.
		The only big surprise was it was much more difficult to navigate than we thought because it looks like a fairly smooth surface where we landed, relatively smooth.
		But it turns out the undulations of the crater impacts are like sand dunes, and they're much higher than you think they are.
		So whereas we thought we could navigate across the surface very, very precisely within inches if we wanted to, it turns out you couldn't do that because you lose sight of your landmarks.
		Just like walking through the desert with sand dunes.
		You come over one sand dune and lo and behold, there's another one and you can't quite see what's over the next one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would that have blocked your, in other words, with that kind of geography, which is hillier than you thought, would that have blocked your view or did you have a great view to the moon's horizon?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		We had great views.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		What I'm talking about is micro-navigation here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see, okay.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Down to within feet or so.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		We knew where we were within 10, 15 yards, but not within 10 or 15 feet sometimes, like the geologist warned us to have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people thought the early Apollo missions might, you know, when the LEM came down, might go sinking into the moon dust, and there was going to be a great deal of moon dust there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people thought that.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was a great deal of moon dust.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It just turned out it compacted very nicely, and the big pads that we had on the bottom of the strats cushioned it very nicely, and we didn't sink in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me try this one on you.
		It's a fact.
		I have several.
		Regarding your appearance on Dateline, NBC's Dateline, a few minutes into the interview, if you had missed it, you would have missed the commentator's remark that Dr. Mitchell returned from the moon with a couple of secrets.
		So if he's unable or unwilling to corroborate Richard Hoagland's work, and we'll get to that later, I'd like to know if it's true that there are some secrets.
		Is there anything, any secret that you learned that you still are unable to discuss?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely not.
		No, the secrets he was referring to was a little teaser for the fact that I did that ESP experiment, telepathy experiment.
		But I have no classified information or information I can't talk about, talked about everything I know to talk about regarding flight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, if you had classified information that you couldn't talk about, then you could talk about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You obviously couldn't talk about it, right?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, but yes, that is true, except for the fact I deny that that's the case.
		We were totally open programmed.
		We had nothing to hide.
		We were to tell the world what we found, and as far as whatever we saw, we can talk about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I don't shy away from things.
		Here's another fact.
		He says, don't ask this directly.
		You may not be able to broach the subject without causing some tension between you and your guest.
		Edgar Mitchell's company, this fact says, has been and is still funded by the CIA.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely untrue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely untrue.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, if you recall, back in the early 70s, I did work at Stanford Research Institute with Harold Putoff and Russell Targ and Uri Geller and all that.
		And I was invited to brief the CIA on our results, which I did.
		George Bush was head of the CIA at that time.
		And subsequently, a great deal of work was done by CIA on psychic work.
		And very successfully, because the Soviets were doing it at that time as well in the Greg area, very successfully.
		And as a matter of fact, much of that work has just been declassified and released to the public within the last few months.
		True.
		Harold Putoff has written, and Russell Targ both have written several papers just this year after 27 years of secrecy about all of that work.
		And it was very successful work and very exciting.
		But as far as funding my company and any of my efforts, no, I've never had one penny of CIA funding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		You did conduct an ESP experiment, it is now known.
		What were the results of that experiment?
		What did you do?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the standard sort of test that had been done in the laboratory by J.B. Ryan and other people for 30 years or more, I just simply conducted it in that environment.
		And I can only quote the results statistically because that's the way it was set up.
		The probability that chance could have produced our results was one in 3,000.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One in 3,000.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		So it was statistically a significant test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you had arranged, I guess, with somebody on Earth to be receiving, and you were going to four people, and you were going to send a message.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What, mid-flight?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, I did it four different times.
		Planned to do it more than that, but I had time to do it four different times during my rest period.
		It took about seven minutes each time to organize the standard zinner symbols in accordance with random numbers selected from a random number table and copied onto my knee pad.
		and organized the symbols of corinth random orientation of the numbers one two three four five and then simply thought about each symbol in turn for fifteen seconds and and the result was uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		that uh...
		it would have been one three thousand it could have been That result.
		That's incredible.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was very significant.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It was quite in keeping with what scientists had found in the laboratory for 30 years or more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did NASA know you were going to do that?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, they did not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Had they known, would they have been happy?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Not particularly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you decide to concoct that experiment?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I tell in my book that's coming out, I had been in discussion with some medical people, as a matter of fact, who were very good scientists and who were frustrated with the establishment's lack of interest in these human capabilities.
		And it seemed like too good an opportunity to pass up because no one had ever been able to conduct an experiment over those distances.
		Now, it was a simple experiment.
		It didn't show a lot because one set of experiments is never enough.
		But it was indicative.
		And the only problem with it, only problem was that it got broken to the press before we were ready to and before we had chance to analyze the results and do it in a thoroughly scientific, proper way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Care to say how it got out?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		One of our persons involved in it, who happened to have been a professional psychic, couldn't contain himself, got too excited, and leaked it to the press.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		All right.
		Let me jump to something else here.
		You, on Dateline, virtually suggested that you think your opinion, so it's safe to say that, is that there was really perhaps a crash in 1947 in Roswell and that it has been covered up.
		Is that roughly accurate?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's pretty accurate.
		Let me give a little background.
		I lived in Roswell at the time, but I was too young, of course, to know much about that incident, although it was not too far from my parents' ranch.
		Interestingly enough, and also as I point out in my book, Robert Goddard lived right down the road from where I grew up in Roswell.
		Walked past his house on the way to school every day.
		So the Roswell area is of interest to me.
		I remember that incident vaguely, remember the headlines, and didn't think much about it at the time when it was said, well, it was just a weather blowout.
		But the subsequent events and the people who have come forth in later years saying that they were told to keep quiet and that they don't want to keep quiet anymore and the many, many investigations of it suggest that there's really more to it than has been told.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think there's in the order of about 130 witnesses.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a lot of people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot of people, yes.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And many of them now in later stages of their life saying, we really don't want to go to our grave with this misinformation out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of people who would say the same thing about you.
		in other words that you wouldn't want to go to your grave with secrets about the moon now i'm i'm not going to beat this to death but i'm going to ask you
		Richard Hoagland claims that there are great glass structures on the moon, and he presents photographs, including one I might add, of you on the moon, in which he claims reflections in your visor are showing things that were in front of you that you have not admitted were there.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I will refer the kindest thing that can be said is what the Washington Post said on green cheese and baloney.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It simply is not true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Simply not true.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's pseudoscience.
		It's just nonsense.
		Alan Bean, I think, give a quick comment, a proper comment.
		I happened to be out of pocket at the time this press conference took place a month ago.
		But Alan Bean's comment is absolutely correct.
		Had we discovered such a thing, we would have been totally delighted to reveal it to the public.
		And he was also, in tongue-in-cheek, said, I would have loved to have gone to collect the Nobel Prize for having such a discovery.
		No, there simply was nothing like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, doctor, stay right there.
		Take a break.
		It'll be about four or five minutes.
		We'll be back with more.
		Humble 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell is our guest, and he's written a book.
		Get a pencil, get a paper, because he's going to offer you an opportunity to get an autographed copy of his book, dedicated autographed copy.
		You'll never get that chance again.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		We'll be right back.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Back to Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell in a moment.
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unidentified		Teflon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not really Teflon, but Teflon-like.
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		All right, back now to Florida.
		And my guest, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut.
		Doctor, this question does not relate to you because of the nature of your crew on Apollo 14, so don't take it that way.
		But one day, if America is to ever, or any nation on this globe, I guess, is ever to launch a spacecraft to elsewhere, truly to elsewhere, beyond our system, in what will be a very long spaceflight, there may have to be generations, literally, of people to accomplish that fact, unless we can start moving a lot faster than light.
		Toward that end, I would think that NASA would have, but wouldn't talk about, a great interest in whether it would be possible to procreate in space or the nature of procreation, and that leads to whether there's ever been sex in space.
		And we talked about that one night, and you seem like the person to ask.
		Do you think there has been?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I can't answer that from definitive knowledge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		But sooner or later there's going to be.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		There may very well have been, but I don't know of any official experiment with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There may be.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just an extension of what aviators always talked about, the mile high cloud.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		He's getting up there 100 miles high.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it would be irresistible, wouldn't you?
		And there must be a file in the back of somebody's file drawer about that.
		I mean, it is at the same time an interesting question, a fun question, and a question that is very serious, or could potentially be very serious.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we certainly need to consider it, because, as you point out, long-distance spaceflight can take years and years.
		Even though, by the way, it's a matter of interest, there's a lot of work going on at the moment to modify, learn to modify the basic characteristics of local space in order to change the speed of light.
		So locally, one could exceed the speed of light.
		Way, Not really exceed the speed of light, but it would appear that one's exceeding the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is this a theory that embraces virtually folding, sort of folding space so that you, in effect, jump from point to point?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, that is the wormholes or tunneling approach.
		No, this goes right to the very definition of what is the speed of light.
		And it's the electrical and a magnetic permeability associated with the magnetic permeability of the medium.
		And if you can modify that, then you could modify the apparent speed of light.
		But it's very far out.
		There's just a few papers been written on it, and it's being looked at at this point.
		But it holds some promise from a scientific point of view.
		Very, very hard-nosed approach to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of the things that Richard Hoagland may not be so far out on and that you may wish to comment on is he talks about a new type of physics that seems to sound a lot like what Tesla worked on, that seems to relate to something you've talked about, this zero-point energy.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		Well, let's not give Hoagland credit for that.
		It's sure it's closer, much closer to Tesla's work.
		But a number of physicists, including Harold Putoff, whom I'm very close to, Tom Beard and others, have been working with zero-point field concepts.
		And I was just discussing, what I was just discussing comes out of zero-point field work.
		That the zero-point field is the underlying quantum field of quantum fluctuations that supports all matter.
		And in space, you'd call it the space energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's energy that's all around us.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		All around us, everywhere.
		And it is the fundamental fluctuation that's left over.
		If you were to reduce space to, well, space is zero degrees Celsius.
		It's the quantum fluctuations that remain at zero degrees Celsius.
		Or you could also say it's a source of the Big Bang.
		It was there, and the Big Bang arose out of the zero-point field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does it seem likely to you, Doctor, that A, that the Big Bang is the correct theory?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all the evidence gets stronger and stronger and stronger the more you look at it, that there's something like the Big Bang.
		The problem is not with the Big Bang itself.
		It's with what happens in the first few nanoseconds of the event and defining precisely what happens at each instant.
		And they're narrowing in on that, but something close to the way that the current standard description of the Big Bang did take place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it's the Big Bang or some modification of the Big Bang, then doesn't it follow that if Roswell really occurred, if there really was a crash at Roswell or there have been others or there are others to visit, that any materials gathered would likely, frankly be very much like the materials we have here on earth in other words all well marker material source from a common living
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		What really comes out of it is that the Big Bang tells us that all matter is interconnected in some way.
		And this comes out of an experiment only 12 years ago called the Aspect Experiment, or more formally Bell's Theorem, which has been tested and proven to be correct, that matter once in connection or correlated with each other remains correlated in some sense.
		And I trace this up to being responsible for what we experience as our inner experience.
		Non-locality is the correct term.
		And we experience our ESP, our intuition, our creativity, as a result of that very fundamental physical relationship that exists in nature.
		And it always existed in nature, and it's responsible for us having our inner experience the way we have it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going to space, going to the moon, was it at some level a very spiritual experience?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And this was what got all of this going as far as I'm concerned.
		It was the perception in looking at the cosmos, seeing the stars, seeing the galaxies, seeing the galactic clusters, the profusion of billions and billions and billions of stellar objects with this tiny little Earth in the midst of it,
		and perceiving that the molecules of my body, of that spacecraft we were in, of each other, of everything around us, were all manufactured in those ancient stars.
		And that our story about ourselves from science was incomplete.
		And our cosmology about how we came to be from our cultural traditions and our religions was archaic.
		That we needed a new story.
		And that new story was, what is it that makes us conscious?
		Why is it that we're aware of beings like we are?
		And the answer to that question is centered around what I have been doing for the last 25 years, trying to find what's going on here.
		Our answers are not complete, but I think after 25 years of working at it, we're getting pretty close to a good answer.
		And it does involve a zero-point field.
		It does involve quantum physics.
		It does involve spiritual experience, mystical experience, parapsychological functioning.
		All of those things have to be satisfactorily answered if we're to know what it is we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think it would be more devastating to learn there are others of greater technical capability or more devastating to learn there are not?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, more devastating to know there are not.
		I think it's absolutely wonderful to know where you first start with the idea, this universe is full of life.
		It's full of intelligent life.
		The fact that some of it might be a little bit more advanced or happened a little earlier than our civilization seems natural.
		If life is throughout the universe, which is quite a different concept than we held 25 or 30 years ago.
		But now I think that is the case.
		And if the universe is approximately 15 billion years old or so, give or take a few, it would not be strange that maybe a civilization could be a few million or even a billion or so years older than we are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think we're ready to know that now?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, surely many are, and I would be certain you would be, and I would be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But there was the Brookings report that suggested a great many people in our society would not be ready.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I think that's probably true, but not nearly like it was 25 years ago.
		A recent study done by my own institute demonstrates that has broken the demographics down into three different groups called the traditionalist, the moderns, and the postmoderns.
		And the postmoderns, another name for them is called Cultural Creatives, which is the group like you and I are that are looking for new answers, looking for where the future is, not afraid of these ideas.
		That group has changed from 2% to 24% in the last 20 years and is in equal in size in the United States, we're talking about U.S. demographics, equal in size to the traditionalist and the moderns.
		The moderns would be your corporate people, your materialist scientists, the yuppie group, and so forth.
		And the cultural creatives would be the Greens, the environmentally sensitive people looking to the future.
		All those groups are now roughly the same size with the cultural creatives increasing and the others decreasing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, look, you've got a book, and I want to plug it for you.
		It's called The Way of the Explorer.
		Can you give us, I'll tell everybody how to get booked and stuff in a moment, but can you give us an idea of what The Way of the Explorer tells us?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I talk a bit about the space experience, of course, how I got into all of that.
		But most of the book, and this story of looking at the universe and being awestruck by what I was experiencing, but most of it is the research of the last 25 years going into these various topics,
		the mystical experience, the parapsychological experience, studying consciousness, how does it relate to our psychology, to our religion, to our mystical experience, to our science, and giving my thoughts on it and my work of the last 20-some years and coming to a new model called the Dyadic model of how it relates.
		What does all this mean to us?
		And where does it seem to be taking us in the future?
		And I touch upon the UFO experience a bit, the notion that intelligent life is probably throughout the universe.
		And the real question is, have we found each other yet?
		All of these items are touched upon, some of them in significant detail, and it's kind of the result of my last 27 years of research.
		It's hung upon an autobiographical story, and the people who have read it say, hey, that's a pretty interesting tale you got there, man.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If another group of people from elsewhere had been watching us, or if we had been observed, then surely those moments when we left our planet in a significant way beyond low Earth orbit or even geosynchronous orbiting satellites, those moments would have been, I would think, of intense interest to somebody else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so obviously the question, did you, en route to the moon or back, see anything at all that was anomalous?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		I wish we had.
		I mean, these stories and rumors have been around for years, but I have had no experience, none on our flight, and to my knowledge, no unexplained experience on any of the flights in this regard.
		And yes, in an evolutionary sense, an extraterrestrial intelligence would be very curious about the evolutionary progress that a civilization they discovered had made.
		So if we were watching somebody's first steps into space, we'd be intensely curious about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		This is something that had to have been covered by NASA, though you say it didn't happen.
		Had there been contact?
		Had you seen another craft, met something on the moon, seen something on the moon?
		What was the protocol?
		Was there a protocol?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		There was none.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you guys would just get on the mic and say, hey, Houston, guess what?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		Because the official position at that point in history, it cannot happen.
		This doesn't exist.
		So it wasn't even discussed.
		Had it happened, it would have been exactly that.
unidentified		Hey, guys, Houston, look what...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
		Yeah.
		I would have thought there would have been at least some private, secret code word or contact or something before you just blurted out a whole thing out publicly.
unidentified		No, huh?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
		It was considered, as far as I'm concerned, considered such a remote event that it wasn't even discussed.
		Now, did any of us individually think about it?
		Sure.
		And say, well, that would have been curious.
		That would have been nice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You've got a very, very unusual offer for everybody.
		And you're going to be inundated.
		Your book, The Way of the Explorer, you're willing to actually autograph versions for people and even dedicate them, is that correct?
unidentified		Sure.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Pure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Give me their name.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		The name, I'll dedicate it to a person that sends the money in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it's $35, right?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A special dedicated autograph version.
		And they would send that $35.
		I suppose check money order, that sort of thing.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, check money order, cash, whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To P.O. Box 6728-6728-Lake Worth, two words, Lake Worth, Florida.
		Zip code 33461.
		And I'll do that again.
		The title of the book, The Way of the Explorer, post office box 6728 Lake Worth, Florida, 33461.
		And you know not what you do.
		Oh, you know not what you do.
		I'm telling you, I wrote a book.
		I signed autographed versions.
		You're going to be at this for a long, long time.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for the warning, Eric.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You remember 2001?
		The obelisk, all the rest of it.
		As you reflect, Doctor, on what it all means or how we came to be, and that's what we're all asking, do you consider that a possibility that life here on Earth was, in effect, jump-started one way or the other, obelisk or otherwise, by folks from elsewhere?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I doubt if it really started that way.
		But there's some interesting speculation by, well, I think he wrote the 12th planet.
		Zacharias Sitchin, Zach Sitchin, thank you, that says, well, maybe they intervened along the way, and that the historical biblical story out of Samaria could very well have been that sort of influence.
		I would love to have Sitchin's work either confirmed or denied by additional scholarship because it's intriguing, and he makes a very strong case, and it's interesting stuff.
		And it's quite possible.
		But I think we probably originated, much like life originated elsewhere.
		And the model for that is what I give in my new book as to how that could possibly happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		By the way, you know, we're also considering doing quite a bit of film work with it.
		I'm associated with North Tower Films out in California.
		Really?
		That trying to get some of these ideas down on film because that's a modern way to do it and into computers, into multimedia approaches.
		If any of your readers or listeners are interested in that and in helping getting involved, we could get them involved with that one, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they would contact you at the same time.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, I've got a number for that.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		You can contact me, but the best thing is to go directly to interested in getting involved to North Tower Films, which is 415-868-1452.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		145.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Looking for funding.
		We have a very fine producer.
		Did you see the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's Robert Watts as a producer.
		Oh, one of the producers.
		He does a marvelous job.
		He also did the Indiana Jones series and Star Wars trilogy involved with all of that.
		So he's a marvelous producer that helps do some of our work.
		And we're trying to do some of this work around what's coming out of this new approach to science and to mystical approaches.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is certainly a lot suddenly happening.
		Your statements, those that are going to be interestingly made May 7th, which is the date your book is coming out, I know, by Gordon Cooper on Paranormal Borderline.
		Apparently some incredible statements coming.
		I don't have a full text, but the people that do have told me they're amazing statements.
		And a lot of people would say the things you have said, that Gordon Cooper will say and others, are all leading up to something, that it's a slow sort of preparation.
		That's the way people feel.
		And that motion pictures are adding to that, you know, Independence Day coming up, the big movie.
		The whole thing, that all of this is leading to a sort of crescendo of information when there'll be some big revelation.
		Do you think that may be?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're in an evolutionary universe.
		This is a major point I make in the book.
		We're evolving.
		We're continuously changing.
		We're continuously innovating.
		And what I believe is happening is that on our Earth, evolution is coming under our conscious control.
		And as a result, it's a new order of things.
		It's a new paradigm for the way we operate.
		In other words, the future of Earth is in our hands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, hold it right there.
		That's a good place to hold it.
		We'll be back following the news at the top of the hour.
		My guest is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
		Yes, we will get phone lines open.
		Stay right there.
unidentified		Stay right there.
		Call our bell toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		I love doing that.
		Confusing my board ops.
		It's double bumping.
unidentified		This is Cusco, C-U-S-C-O.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is a group that I've been using, actually, it's bumper music now for years.
		Can you believe it's been years?
		And so they came to us and said, since you're selling so many albums for us, might as well advertise on your show.
		And here it is.
		The Cusco 2000 album.
		Cusco 2002, the best-selling album, Mystic Island.
		You get three CDs for $39.95 or $27.95 for cassettes.
		Both cases include postage to get them to your home.
		But listen, you include $5 more and Higher Octave gives you Two more CDs of music of the same genre.
		You like this, you like that.
		Five CDs now for less than the cost of three.
		You go straight to the source, higher octave music.
		The number is 1-800-562-8283.
		You get that?
		1-800-562-8283.
		You better hurry before this offer ends, and it will soon.
		Also, let's talk for a second about comfortable sleeping.
unidentified		Do you sleep well at night?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No?
		Well, I've got the answer for you.
		It is select comfort.
		Select comfort is a bed.
		It's unlike any other bed out there anywhere.
		It has within it individualized air chambers that either stiffen or slacken at your electronic command.
		You've got a little electronic command post on each side of the bed.
		And instead of water or springs, there are air chambers, and they adjust themselves to your sleep needs for that night.
		Select comfort.
		It's incredible.
		Really, it is.
		And all we're asking you to do is send away, actually call, a free number to get a free videotape to take a look at it.
		Then if you buy it, you get a 90-day risk-free in-home trial.
		You can't go wrong.
		The number is 1-800-448-5700.
		That's 1-800-448-5700.
		Now, Dr. Edgar Mitchell in Florida, back once again.
		Doctor, gee, it's great having you here.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It's nice to talk with you.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never, I always wanted to talk to somebody who went to the moon and walked on the moon, and it's exciting to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess I will never, that's one thing I will never get to do.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, not necessarily.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that goes to the nature of my question, and that is now we're talking about a space station with the Russians, and I guess the space program has not gone as aggressively as people like yourself, myself might have wished it to.
		Where should the space program be going?
		If you had your brothers and money wasn't a problem, what would we be doing?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think we're probably doing a lot of the right things right now.
		But in due course, we will do all of these things.
		We will go back to the moon.
		We will go to Mars.
		We will go out to the solar system.
		We will even go beyond the solar system in due course, sometime in the next century or so, or beyond.
		But right now, I think we need to get our act together here on Earth.
		And the space technology is absolutely marvelous for surveying the Earth, seeing how to get ourselves better organized here, get things pulled together.
		It's quite apparent when you look at Earth from space that this thin, thin, thin little biosphere that we have is rather in jeopardy.
		You know, we spotted the burning forest, the pollution from space.
		It's very easy to see.
		And it's causing people to be very concerned.
		So getting ourselves organized, recognizing who and what we are, what is our place in the cosmos, laying our plans for the future, it's an appropriate thing to do now.
		We've only been in space about 30-some years, and that's just nothing.
		And we're just really starting to understand what this environment's all about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does that overview, seeing the Earth that way, cause you to become an environmentalist?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly causes you to become far, to ask questions in a different way.
		And most of the people who have been in space, I would say, are now, if not ardent environmentalists, certainly very sensitive to environmental issues.
		It's very obvious from the space overview.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of people have asked this, and I've always wanted to.
		A lot of people, doctor, who went to space, went to the moon or even in the early Mercury program, have had terribly troubling lives.
		Broken marriages, drug or alcohol problems, just generally have had trouble.
		But I would guess, and this is just my guess, that that's true of a lot of test pilots, too, people who live on the edge one way or the other.
		Is that the answer to you?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's largely true.
		I think the NASA program itself in the early days, we had very high family problems just because of the intensity, the dedication.
		This idea of going to the moon back in the 60s was so exciting and people were so dedicated that the men and women, mostly men in those days, focused on their jobs and families came second.
		And that's just not the way you keep a family together.
		And as a result, we had our casualties.
		And I think the timber of the times, as we see in American society in general at these times, that we're undergoing a transition.
		And it has been very difficult on the families themselves.
		But it's just a part of the times, I believe, and the intensity of this very marvelous program we were a part of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to dispel another rumor, or it's actually more than that.
		Flying around on the internet, this great new information resource we have, there are all these texts, there are a lot of texts of supposed astronaut communications intercepted by amateur radio operators during blackout times about things they saw, most amazing things.
		All baloney?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, without analyzing them individually, I can't say they're all baloney, but by and large I would say in a general statement, yeah, they're all baloney.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You and Gordon Cooper and others are probably considered within the Astronaut Corps to be kind of out on the edge yourself, are you not?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		In some ways, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you expect others to come forward and say the kind of things that you've been saying?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have been.
		Some of them have, perhaps a little more guardedly.
		I've kind of made it my business for the last quite a few years to look very carefully, very critically at many of these frontier concepts to see what validity they had.
		And we're finding many of them have a certain amount of validity.
		And as they have validity, you start to find ways to bring them Into the body of our knowledge.
		And when you're a pioneer in that way, as I try to be, yes, you invite criticism, you invite the wise nods and the shaking of heads and so forth.
		But that just goes with the territory of being an explorer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does.
		Neil Armstrong is a good example.
		I can't give you the exact quote, but he went to the White House, I'm sure you've heard it, and said that there are places to go and things to see that will boggle your mind or something very close to that.
unidentified		Yep, and that's quite true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that implies a knowledge, though, that he has that he can't quite fully or is not willing to quite fully articulate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sort of a tease.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It's probably more not quite able to articulate.
		I have had exactly that same problem of trying to explain what is the inevitable.
		And that has always been the problem between science and our mystical experience.
		Science wants things precise, well defined, and with exquisite precision.
		But most of our human experience doesn't have that precision.
		It's what we feel, it is our reaction to an environment, and there aren't words to properly describe it.
		If it were, then it wouldn't be such a mystical experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, you have had the ultimate physical experience, the science experience of going to the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think the ultimate answers that man seeks are going to be found in the hard sciences, or do you think that we will have to turn inward to find those answers?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Science has to modify itself, and it's all centered around one concept.
		It's the first person experience.
		Each one of us lives in our skin.
		Each one of us has an inner experience.
		That's the only experience we have.
		Science is concerned with describing that from the third person or objective point of view.
		And unfortunately, you cannot describe all first-person point of view from the third person point of view.
		That is where science breaks down.
		And the religious, our cultural, our subjective experience is all that each of us really has.
		That is the basis of our existence.
		And bringing science into understanding how to better deal with the personal, subjective, inner experience is what my studies have all been about.
		And that is really where the dividing line is here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here's something that I would like to ask you about.
		Maybe you can answer it in a way I haven't been able to.
		But those of religious faith, deep religious faith, many of them view discussion of UFOs, discussion of people or others that may be out there as of the devil.
		How do you react to that?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this was, I grew up in a fundamentalist tradition.
		I tell the story in my book about my mother who was healed amazingly in one of these powerful things, healing moments, very much the way Jesus is supposed to have healed people.
		Only the interesting part was this fellow was a Buddhist shaman, and he did a pretty marvelous job of healing my mother.
		And she subsequently started thinking about it.
		I described this in the book, by the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did she suffer?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		She had glaucoma and was very surely going blind.
		She wore thick, by the time this happened, she wore very thick Coke bottle glasses and was legally blind without them.
		And she was healed and could see, broke, an interesting story, dropped her glasses on the floor, ground them under her shoe, and said, son, praise the Lord, I can see.
		Drove home without her glasses 300 miles by herself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And if I were to say, the devil did that?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, just let me finish the story.
		She called me a week later and said, son, was this man a Christian?
		And I said, oh, Jesus, no, mother.
		I'm sorry, he wasn't.
		The next day, she had to put her glasses back, had to go get new glasses.
		Her belief system was so strong that since she couldn't accept a Buddhist shaman healing her, I understand.
		She rejected the healing.
		Now, interestingly enough, 10 years later when she passed away, she still hadn't had an operation because it was pretty risky back in those days.
		But she never went blind.
		Her eyesight improved over the years, the ten years remaining to her, so that by the time she passed away, she wasn't, her glasses were a far weaker prescription than when this incident occurred.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very amazing story.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Got me started on all of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it did?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was a part, one of my earliest experiences with consciousness and paranormal work, even before I went into Uri Geller.
		Urigeller came after that, and I had been studying with this shaman to see how in the world can this possibly happen?
		As a scientist, I wanted to understand it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do some of your old colleagues come to you and say, Edgar, what are you doing?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They do?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Fact is, they did right after the experiment in space.
		Many of them came in, closed the door, looked around nervously, and said, tell me about it.
		It's been happening for 20-some years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you just told them about it.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell anybody to ask.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow forward, obviously.
		There was a report last night, Doctor.
		Last night, scientists, it says, are now calculating that asteroid 433, known as Eros, will wander into Earth's orbit.
		Now, it's not a minor little asteroid.
		It is the size of Manhattan.
		Scientists are saying eventually a collision with Earth is likely, maybe not for a million years, and that's a long time, but they calculate it will probably occur.
		Now, of course, that's far larger than the one that supposedly took out the dinosaurs.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		50% probability.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		50%.
		Half and half.
		Well, all right, that's a big probability.
		50% probability.
		And it's also not the only asteroid out there.
		Now, Potentially one day, something's going to come along that will do to us what was done to the dinosaurs.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Quite possibly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's been a recent concern of scientists, so it's a good reason to have a space program, isn't it?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		And you see, this illustrates what I'm talking about in our evolutionary path.
		We are indeed, these events can come under our conscious control.
		By the time that might happen, see, it's not, they say the probability is very, very low in the next 10,000 years, virtually zero.
		And within 10,000 years, we certainly would have the technology to divert an object like that with perhaps nuclear power or some such technology that we could invent by the time that happens.
		So that illustrates the fact we could bring this sort of natural disaster within our ability to pervert it or change it.
		We may not be able to get to earthquakes by that time, but again, we might.
		But certainly, it's feasible that we could pervert an asteroid that was going to collide with it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		There are many who have prophets, people who claim to see.
		You mentioned earthquakes.
		Gordon Michael Scallion, he's a fellow I work with, brilliant guy.
		Others who see great earth changes coming, great, great earthquakes coming.
		And indeed, I look at our society right now, we're dealing with a story this morning of a six-year-old who may have or is alleged to have planned the murder of a 30-day-old child.
		This sort of thing.
		Events, socially, economically, politically, seem to be in rapid deterioration, and events appear to be quickening.
		Geologic events as well.
		Have you looked at that?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yes, I have, and I described part of this in the book.
		I don't know that geologic events are accelerating, but certainly, well, in the sense that weather events, if they're influenced by the ozone layer, if they're influenced by the global warming, the greenhouse effect, those can be traced to human activity.
		And if we can trace it to human activity, then yes, it's accelerating because every measure of human activity has a period of doubling now that is less than a human lifetime.
		And it's the first time that's happened in all human history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		So it's bringing, it's what I'm saying, it's bringing all of these events are coming under human control.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And it's because we're so numerous, our technology is so powerful, and it requires us now to rethink this whole issue of who are we, how did we get here, what's our future, where are we going, why, and how.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, whether you believe in a Creator or you believe that our Earth is reacting to what is being done to it, there are a lot of people who believe, and I may be one of them, that the Earth is in fact in some way, maybe perhaps just some natural way, reacting to our presence or the changes we're bringing to Earth.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I happen to be one of them, too.
		And that's exactly the sort of model I describe in my book, that this is an interactive, self-organizing system that we're talking about.
		And you push on it here, and the effect comes out over there in ways we don't really quite understand yet.
		And that's precisely what we must do, is to take responsibility for and understand the consequences of our behaviors because we're doing some things that are quite reminiscent of the lemmings rushing toward the sea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm politically, in a lot of ways, conservative.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Me too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But NASA has measured in recent years the ozone depletion.
		And I find it very difficult to be in denial regarding an 8% to 10% drop over North America, for example, in the size of the hole.
		Do you generally believe these measurements are accurate?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		The question here is not are the measurements accurate.
		The question is the meaning and the interpretation.
		And the evidence continues to mount that these are indeed man-made events and that they're having a deleterious effect upon our whole ecological system.
		It's affecting the food chain.
		The measurements are showing that it's affecting the food chain clear down at the level of the newts, the frogs, the life cycle of the fishes, and so forth, which eventually works its way up to affect us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So we should be watching these indicator species very, very carefully and recognizing that very likely we're causing the problem.
		As we take down the forest, the rainforest, and as we venture into places we've never been before, we seem to be getting more Ebolas, more mad cow diseases, more viruses that we can't explain and can't deal with.
		More of the same thing, Doctor?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		More of the same thing.
		Nature has a way, and I think my model that I present in this book goes a long way toward helping us understand how this takes place.
		Essentially, nature is an evolving, intelligent organism.
		We don't think of it as an organism due to our scientific history.
		We think of it as inanimate particles.
		But the Lovelock Gaia hypothesis that everything is interconnected and interrelated, more like an organism, is probably a more productive way of thinking about nature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Closer to the Native American model.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It's very close to the Native American model and virtually all of the early models.
		And I think we will find it very productive if we continue to develop that model of the interconnectedness of things and how everything relates to each other.
		And the fact that these effects take place is hardly disputable.
		It is the meaning or the interpretation that is in question here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Fascinating.
		Do you think, given the direction that you see and I see, we're headed toward a good outcome or without change, a catastrophic outcome?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, without change, it can be very catastrophic.
		But that is precisely the point.
		With change, with human awareness, with human willingness to take responsibility for some of these actions, then the outcome can be very beneficial.
		What the futurist is looking for is sustainable processes.
		And right now, we're creating processes that are not sustainable.
		A lot of my writing right now is on sustainability.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, hold on.
		His writing is entitled The Way of the Explorer.
		And he's making you an offer this morning that I'm sure you can't refuse.
		I'm going to send off my 35.
		That's the name of Dr. Mitchell's book, The Way of the Explorer, and he's willing to send you an autograph-dedicated copy.
		An autographed copy.
		I would grab this up.
		And the way you get it is send $35 check, money, order, cash, whatever.
		Really, you shouldn't send cash.
		To P.O. Box 6728, that's Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth.
unidentified		That's two words, Lake Worth, Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		33461.
		And I'll do that one more time.
		The Way of the Explorer, $35.
		To Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida, 33461.
		When we come back, we'll begin to take a few calls.
		And by the way, to my very, very good friend at Gateway, the answer is absolutely yes.
		Private message.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here again, I am.
		My guest is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
		He'll be right back.
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		I've always had great sympathy for friends who have allergy problems.
		You know, the runny nose, watery eyes, fits of coughing and sneezing, but now I've got an answer for them.
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		Neil Armstrong at the White House, July 20th, 1994.
		There are great, quote, there are great ideas undiscovered.
		Breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.
		There are places to go beyond belief.
		That, Doctor, was what Neil Armstrong said.
		And that part of the line, to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers, seems awfully suggestive.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we do have a way, the way we organize information in our mind-brain, we have a way of protecting ourselves from shocking ideas.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And if we want to be ultra, ultra-cautious, we just let shocking new ideas kind of float over our head and we don't buy into them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And that's one of nature's voices are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		This is something people have always asked.
		A lot of the film and video that was taken on the moon, a lot of film and video that's been taken in space for that matter, never seems, according to my faxer from Memphis, to show stars.
		And people have always wondered why.
		It shows the blackness of space, but you never see the stars.
		Any thoughts?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, that's because if you squeeze the shutter down in order so that you get some definition of the thing you're looking at, you have excluded the starlight, which is much fainter.
		But if you were to focus away from the sun and away from reflective light, open the shutter up, you won't see the stars.
		The same thing is true on the lunar surface.
		If you look through our lunar surface telescope, from the lunar module, you saw stars burberry nicely.
		But on the lunar surface, if you look out, you should see stars, but the reflective light is bright enough that your eye shutter squeezes down, your eyeball squeezes down, you don't see them unless you're very well shielded.
		And certainly on your camera, if you're going to catch the definition on the surface, you've got to close the shutter and you exclude the stars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can tell you that's true, because not long ago, the shuttle came back returning to Earth.
		And here in the desert, we got a beautiful look at it very early in the morning, about 4 o'clock in the morning.
		I went out with my camcorder, which is, you know, maybe one or two lucks a good camcorder.
		And it began as a great orange glow in the west and grew and then suddenly shot across the horizon with a big kaboom.
		And I thought I got it, and I didn't get a dog-on thing on my camcorder.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Not enough light there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not enough light there.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's amazing how sensitive the eye is.
		You know, we did a wonderful experiment coming back from the MOOC in which we put eye shades on, darkened the cabin, and then looked.
		And sure enough, we got meteor trails flashing across the eyeball, which were gamma rays, tiny little energetic solar particles flashing across the tissue of the eye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Just like a meteor flashes across the sky.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And the optic nerve is sensitive enough to pick up that single photon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were there many worries, Doctor, that something the size of a pebble or even a grain of sand would impact a spacecraft at high velocity?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That was all part of the computation of how thick the spacecraft was and so forth.
		And sure, during periods of high solar, sunspot activity, we shouldn't be in space, not because of meteor particles, but because of the high energy that could penetrate and damage our bodies.
		And there's always a possibility that a high-velocity particle could fracture a spacecraft cabinet.
unidentified		Sure.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		A very high probability, but it's fair.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's take a few phone calls, if you wouldn't mind.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, go ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Here we go.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Mitchell.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Mary from Peoches, Nevada.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Dr. Mitchell, someone was listening to you when you came on the air this morning, and he worked with you on the ESP experiment.
unidentified		Can you use your ESP now and tell me who it was?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I haven't any idea who it was.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I can tell you if it's true if you tell me who it is, however.
unidentified		Olaf Johnson.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, Olaf is indeed the one that knew about it.
		He was involved.
		That's quite true.
		And he also let the press know, and that got it all out in the public.
		That's right.
unidentified		Oh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very artistic.
unidentified		He was listening to you this morning when you came on, and he was hoping that he could talk to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if he can get through, he can talk to Dr. Mitchell.
		Would you have words for him?
		Have you had words for him regarding his letting the press know about it?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we'd hoped that that wouldn't happen.
		It did cause a few difficulties in keeping this within the scientific genre instead of a sensational genre.
		But we did publish, you know, Dr. Ryan published the results, and everything works out the way it's supposed to, so I can't be too frustrated with Olaf on that regard.
		But it would have been helpful if we'd announced it in a little more measured way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're not unhappy you did it.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, good heavens, no.
		Because it did indeed show us that what we were experiencing works exactly the same way in space as it does here.
		And subsequent experiments in the laboratory have shown us that we don't have an inverse squared effect like we do with other electromagnetic effects, that it is truly a non-local effect we're dealing with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Kansas City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kansas City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Dr. Mitchell, honored to speak with you.
		The question I have for you is you speak a lot about spirituality, and you speak about that people will not be so paranoid in the future with what they find out from what you believe we will find out.
		Do you see, are you, do you have a religious feeling?
		I mean, do you believe that there is a higher being controlling us?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I don't use the word being.
		I interpret it quite differently than that.
		I work with the idea of the God within rather than the God without.
		In other words, I consider the whole universe as divine intelligence.
		That we must, as I write in my book, that we scientists must rethink the problem that the gods do exist, they're throughout the universe.
		And I say to the theologian, your gods are too small.
		That the whole universe is in the divine experience.
		And we just merely need to change the way, subtle way we think about it a little bit, and it all fits, as far as I'm concerned.
unidentified		So how would you explain life after death, or is there?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a lengthy one.
		Read the book, and I do touch on that.
		I approach this from the point of view of energy and information, that it's a very natural thing that's taking place, that the information representing human life, or the experiences of human life, are indeed recorded, are indeed preserved is a better word.
		I call it the giant hard disk in the sky facetiously.
		And we now have a quantum mechanical mechanism which we're writing about and studying Right now, as to how that takes place, we have a pretty good handle, a pretty good theory on what's happening here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, I've always personally explained it by just believing that creation, however, it occurred, and a creator not necessarily at all mutually exclusive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's no reason the hand of the creator could not have molded and started all this on its way.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
		It's like the details of the Big Bang.
		The details that we're talking about here are so fine that they become a little bit moot.
		But the fact is, this is a creative, organizing, intelligent universe.
		And the details of its beginning, we still don't quite grasp.
		But perhaps we will in the future.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Oh, cool.
unidentified		Hi, this is Matt from Idaho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Matt.
unidentified		Hey, I can make a hobby of this.
unidentified		This is the second moonwalker I've talked to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who else did you talk to?
unidentified		Buzz Aldrin on Larry King's Show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Back about a year ago.
unidentified		Anyway, I don't really have a question per se other than just a little personal experience that I had.
		As far as Dr. Mitchell, when you talk about the experience of the oneness and whatnot, back in 1988, I was standing on the shore of Jackson Lake, Grand Teton Lodge, Grand Teton Park.
		And it was a perfectly smooth lake on a cloudless, beautiful night.
		And I was standing there.
		The whole lake was like a mirror.
		And all of a sudden, it's really hard to explain.
		It's like you said.
		But if you do experience it, you'll never forget it.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly the point.
		The experience is sometimes ineffable.
		But once you have experienced it, you never forget it.
		And it's very hard sometimes to explain it to someone else unless they've had the same experience.
		Then you don't need to explain it to them.
unidentified		Yeah, about the only thing I can say is that about the closest I could come to it is that it was almost like every single cell in my brain just all of a sudden at once understood the whole thing.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		In my book, I describe this.
		The classical mystical experience is described in the literature as samadhi.
		This comes out of the Sanskrit, the ancient language of mysticism.
		And I describe this in the book as when the entire brain body is in resonance with the zero-point field.
		And it provides a sense of ecstasy, a sense of connectedness, a sense of this ineffable experience that you're trying to describe, and which I try to describe equally ineffectively.
		But there is apparently now a physical explanation for this.
		And we must ask ourselves, why did nature provide these feelings at all?
		And of course, I go into that one in the book, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you, man.
		Let's go into this one.
		Let's see if you can handle this one.
		Have you done any thinking about the nature of the soul?
		Somebody asked you about life after death.
		In other words, are we more than the sum total of our biological parts?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's where this information comes from.
		A way of looking at it, this is a metaphor.
		This is a way to look at it, is that the sum total of our experiences can be called information.
		Everything before now is just the information about what we've experienced.
		In other words, your life is information that you remember.
		In other words, everything in your mind right now is just a memory from the past.
		So, if we say that that memory, that information, is coherent, that there is a way that it is preserved, that is about as good a scientific description of the soul as one can come up with.
		And we now have a mechanism for how that is preserved and carried forward.
		That's what I'm working on at the moment.
		And it's a testable hypothesis.
		Science is going to be able to deal with this very, very short.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You believe that we will begin to get a grasp on it, actually?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I think we're doing so right now.
		I'm working with a number of scientists in Europe and here in the United States, including my good friend Hal Puttoff, that I worked with for years.
		And we're all batting these ideas back and forth.
		And it goes to the nature of holography.
		In other words, one of the things in physics that we're all familiar with now is a hologram or a holograph.
		Sure.
		Two-dimensional and three-dimensional.
		And it turns out that the brain constructs its images much in the same way holograms are constructed.
		And it also turns out this may be nature's way of creating its coherence, its resonance, this interconnectedness we're talking about.
		Now, we're getting a little heavy for an early morning show, but that's probably going to be my next book as we try to explain this in lay terms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		Well, okay, we are the sum total of our experiences and maybe more.
		We're now entering an age where all kinds of memory and computer tricks are possible and storage and speed are increasing of CPUs.
		Will the day not come when information may be exchanged between biological entities and machines?
		Or at least I guess what we call machines now may become part biological themselves?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I kind of question that, and this is a central point, so you can't be too adamant about it.
		But it's the fact that the inner experience of a silicon chip is probably quite different than the inner experience of a carbon-based brain.
		So it's not likely that we will have androids that are very good humans.
		It's because of this subtle difference in non-locality or inner experience, which goes to our intuition, our ESP, etc., etc.
		All of which we humans experience because of the particular nature of our carbon-based mind-brain, spirit, if you will, which is somewhat different than a silicon entity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, but there are people who talk of biologically based or hybrid computers of the future.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It is possible that we can do that, that certainly sophisticated computer technology.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		But there will be certain differences, and it's obviously much too early to tell how far we can go with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of it, I guess, depends on the nature of awareness.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Keyword, you just hit the keyword, Art.
		Awareness, and this is what I describe in my book, that awareness is a fundamental attribute of nature, of the matter in nature.
		That if you start to examine awareness closely, as we in science used to think, that it is a product of our evolved energetic molecules, it turns out you just can't get there from here.
		That awareness has to be indigenous to nature itself.
		Now, our mentality, our ability to think, to reason, to reflect, to be self-aware, yeah, that's probably due to our evolutionary path.
		But awareness itself probably is not.
		At least that's the thesis I put forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		So you think, in all probability, we'll not actually get to awareness.
		And if we do, then we're getting toward the core of it all.
unidentified		And you start to wonder if we should even be there.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know whether we shouldn't be there.
		I think we have to understand it.
		But I believe that understanding awareness and volition, awareness and volition go together in my model, they are right at the core of the question.
		When we understand awareness and volition, we're probably right at the central, crucial issue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		Doctor, I have held you now for two hours.
		I have one hour of the program left.
		And if you are up to it, I would hold you, or if you wish to rush off to breakfast, I know it's about 6 o'clock in the morning there.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me replenish my teacup, and I'll stay with you a little bit if you like, because I'm enjoying talking with everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely excellent.
		All right.
		Please go right ahead and do that.
		And in the meantime, I'll begin to tell everybody how to get your book once again, all right?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So go get some tea, and we'll hold you another hour.
		My guest is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
		This is a priceless opportunity, and we will lay more heavily on the phones in this final hour.
		He has written a book.
		It's called The Way of the Explorer.
		That's a good title, isn't it?
		The Way of the Explorer.
		Or otherwise, to go where no man has gone before.
		Anyway, if you would like an autographed copy of his book, it really is a rare opportunity, an autographed copy of his book, dedicated to, I guess, supply the verbiage you would like.
		He's willing to do that.
		He's going to be signing a lot of books.
		To get it, you send $35 to Post Office Box 67286728.
		Lake Worth.
		That's two words.
		Lake, as in that which holds all that water.
		And Worth, as in Fort Worth, Texas, but not Texas.
		So Lake Worth, Florida.
		Zip code 33461.
		Let me get that to you again.
		I know a lot of you are rushing for pens.
		This would be a priceless opportunity and probably one-time chance to get an autographed copy like this.
		The Way of the Explorer.
		It is $35.
		It will be less in the stores, but of course you will not have a personally autographed version, and that's something to have as a keepsake.
		Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida, 33-461.
		And I would like to thank you all for participating.
		If you would like to either speak with Dr. Mitchell or you're welcome to send a fax with a question.
		Let me give you my fax number.
		Here in Nevada, it is Area Code 702-727-8499.
		Now, I ask that you hold it to three pages, please.
		No more than that.
		I prefer one page, if you can do that.
		A faxed question at Area Code 702-727-8499.
		And so there you have it.
		An evening with somebody who's been to the moon.
		It's always been a dream of mine to be able to ask these kinds of questions to somebody who's done something that I Dr. Mitchell said I may, but I suspect I may not ever get to the moon.
		In fact, that is a good question, I suppose, when we come back here in a moment, to ask whether any of us may have an opportunity to go.
		You never know.
		I never thought that I would get to fly at Mach 2 Plus, but I did.
		I got to go to Paris in the Concorde, so who knows?
		Maybe an opportunity will present itself, and I will get to go to the moon yet.
		Just that I'm not betting on it.
		So when we've got somebody here who's actually been, it is indeed a priceless opportunity.
		More of it coming up in a moment from the high desert.
		You're listening to the American CBC Radio Network.
		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		Don't move.
		Call Martbelle, toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed, by the way, if you'd like to get a copy of this morning's program with Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell, you can do so by calling 1-800-917-4278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's 1-800-917-4278.
unidentified		We eat food every day, don't we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of us assume, bad mood, that we get all the benefits of that food, and we normally should.
		Now look, in your digestive tract, there is a bacteria, good not bad.
		It is the actual process that drives the nutrition into your body and eliminates wastes.
		I don't have to go in great detail about that.
		You understand what I mean?
		If this bacteria becomes ill or dies, you have a problem.
		That process either reverses or halts.
		And a lot can kill that bacteria, antibiotics, bad diet, alcohol, drugs, stress, even basic aging.
		And here's what restores it.
		Megadopolis, bifidofactor, and digestile act.
		Do you get all that?
		Of course not.
		It's Natron's Healthy Trinity.
		And you can get it by calling 1-800-992-3323.
		1-800-992-3323.
		Natron's Healthy Trinity, I take it.
		So should you.
		The other word is about absolutely fresh flowers.
		Mother's Day is on the way.
		This is one you don't want to forget.
		Mothers don't like it when you forget, believe me.
		So don't.
		And the way not to is to act now.
		Before Mother's Day.
		This is a flower farm.
		All they do is sell miniature carnations.
		They include a little card from you with your message, personalized, handwritten, and name at the bottom.
		And they're delivered by FedEx.
		And if you call now, they're delivered just before Mother's Day weekend at $42.95.
		If you wait, it costs more.
		So act now.
		Don't wait.
		I'm sure you've got a mother, don't you?
		Send her flowers for Mother's Day from Absolutely Fresh Flowers.
		The number is 1-800-562-6438.
		That's 1-800-562-6438.
		All right, now back to Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
		And Doctor, I presume you've got some tea in hand.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I have my herbal tea, and I'm ready to go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We have done a number of programs on something called HAARP.
		I bet you're familiar with HAARP.
		It's up in Alaska, and it is ostensibly a project to heat the ionosphere, in effect, boring a hole through the ionosphere, in order to study radio or improve radio propagation, ostensibly, or to look for caverns or bunkers beneath the Earth.
		In other words, to geographically map what's below the surface of the Earth.
		There are a lot of people concerned about harp.
		Dr. Nick Begich in Alaska wrote a book called Angels Don't Play This Harp.
		Do you know anything about the angelic nature or lack of it of harp?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry if you've sprung a new one on me.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That one I'm not familiar with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		Well, okay, that's worth looking into, believe me.
		They're going to be pouring billions of watts with a very directional antenna toward the ionosphere.
		And it's an interesting project.
		And you don't know anything about it?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, but I can say if it's billions of watts, that's an awful lot of energy.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And it should be looked at very carefully.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would be my reaction.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Energy and those amounts need to be studied carefully before you do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very good.
		On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
		Good evening.
		Morning, actually.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hi to both of you.
		It's a great honor to speak to you, Dr. Mitchell.
		And I had a question.
		What was the most unexpected event that occurred during the Apollo 14 mission?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, two things.
		On the lunar surface, it was the difficulty of our navigation on a presumably relatively flat surface, pointing out it wasn't so flat after all.
		And in general, it was this perception of Earth from space, which was so overwhelming to many of us, of seeing this awesome planet we call Earth and getting this new perspective that we're talking about, the epitome, the insight, the wow, the aha.
		That to me was the unexpected overwhelming to me.
unidentified		Did it seem surrealistic to you?
unidentified		Like, am I really here?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Not quite surrealistic so much as, isn't it amazing that we react in this way?
		Isn't it amazing that here we knew, we know the Earth is this little ball.
		It looks like a globe.
		It's moving around a rather average sun in a rather average galaxy, way out on the spiral arm.
		We knew all of that intellectually.
		But when you experience it viscerally, something different takes place.
unidentified		I'll bet it does.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And that is precisely what got me on this whole path that I've been on for the last 25 years.
		What is it that's taking place?
		Why is it that we experience this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, where are you calling from, sir?
unidentified		Alamo, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, excellent.
		Thank you very much.
		And Dr. Mitchell, how much can you see, now, with the kind of mission you were on, how much detail, when you're in orbit, can you see on the Earth?
		You said you saw the forest burning.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no, you can see that.
		It depends on how far out you are, of course.
		If you are at the distance of the moon, well, you can see the continents, provided they're not obscured by cloud cover.
		You can see the deserts, the reddish color of the deserts, the green of the great jungles and so forth, the blue of the water.
		Detail is a little more difficult to perceive.
		But if you get in closer, of course, then you can see magnificent detail from 100 miles up.
		And with our modern surveillance devices, you can read license plates from space, as you probably know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
		The whole series, the CAGE series of satellites, I do believe they can look down and read licenses.
		It's a little unnerving.
		All right.
		Wild card line.
		You're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Dr. Mitchell.
		Good morning.
		Good morning, Mark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Eugene, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Yeah, name's Andy.
unidentified		And I just wanted to know how the doctor felt about or if he was familiar with Dr. Robert Monroe's work about very well when he was alive, yes.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Really?
		Astounding books, out-of-body experience and far journey.
		And I just wanted to get your feelings on his discoveries, on his out-of-body, you know, his interdimensional travels.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the way I explain it in my book, and I go into this also, that you tie it together with the remote viewing experiences and it's merely a matter of detail and specificity and again the inner experience from the detail of Bob and Rose work the so-called out of body or astral projection gives the experience of being there but we can't find anything that goes anywhere
		what you're doing is bringing, apparently, bringing the information here.
		In other words, information is everywhere, and you're simply focusing it from a point of view.
		So nothing has to go anywhere in order to perceive that information.
		Another way of looking at it is that we're here and everywhere simultaneously.
		Now, that's a tough one to get around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		But that seems to be the best description.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		in that uh it is it is simply a transformation of the viewpoint of information that exists and information apparently exists everywhere simultaneously I had the honor of interviewing Dr. Monroe before he died and I found his information to be absolutely captivating are you do you believe that I or that any or that a human being sufficiently trained and
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and disciplined could take roughly the same trip you took without all the expense you do.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Part of the work we did in the laboratory was with several psychics.
		Ingo Swann, a very noted one, was able to do this and to bring back information from some of the larger and outer planets that was only verified later by NASA flyby.
		So some of the work in remote viewing precisely gathers that sort of information.
		Now it turns out that the detail can be quite good.
		It can also be misleading sometimes because we do filter that through our own brain body, our own information mechanism.
		But with good training and putting aside biases, quite often the information is startlingly accurate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		Moon rocks.
		Everybody would like to ask about moon rocks and I've got a bunch of facts here.
		You brought back and the Apollo series brought back many, many, many rocks.
		Did we find anything in those moon rocks that surprised or shocked us in any way or did we just find rocks?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we found rocks and we found that they are, of course, the same minerals that we find on Earth because the periodic table of elements is the same in the universe.
		But the combinations and the processes that form the rocks are clearly quite different, which is what we set out to discover.
		What are the processes on the moon that are different than the processes on Earth?
		And by and large, they're described by the lack of the lighter elements like oxygen, hydrogen, all of which boiled off very early in the lunar process because of the reduced gravity, the smaller size.
		Sure.
		And they were present here on Earth.
		But what they did was give us clues as to how the moon was formed, which in turn gives us clues as to how our own Earth came about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is the best theory about how the moon was formed?
		Was it from Earth?
		There are people who feel it was early on from Earth.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I will have to beg off a little bit.
		I haven't read the most recent literature, but they were formed at about the same time, early in the process, and apparently from the same giant mix.
		were i'm maybe a little tentative here i believe that they have had a long long history of separate as being independent entities but they have been may have been in conjunction at one time there's one theory and i'm a little confused here because i haven't studied it in quite a number of years there was one theory that uh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		the great part of the pacific ocean is a place where like Siamese twins they were separated at one point indeed I'm not sure whether that theory has held up or not but and I'll have to beg off without reading the the most recent literature all right dear art please ask Dr. Mitchell about crop circles what's his opinion that's something I know you know Linda how matter of fact I think she interviewed you for this coming dreamland this Sunday what do you
		think about these crop circles.
		They are odd.
		Any theories?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they are odd, and I'm not enough of an expert on those, nor have I studied them personally to be able to offer anything that's very valid.
		And certain of them certainly have already been described or admittedly created by hoax.
		That doesn't mean they all have.
		And I guess I have to remain open-minded on it and say I don't know the answer.
		Let's get some more data here.
unidentified		right east of the Rockies you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell where are you please yes hello Northern Florida well college student there's kind of late of ours there indeed glad the affiliate's hanging on there bless them Dr. Mitchell you in the course of the interview there well the zero point well Mr. Hoagland referred
		to it as the hyperdimensional physics etc is that I have well knowing a member of the space program for many years now going in a great detail is that the spiritual to be quite honest here if you gentlemen would like to expound especially yourself Dr. Mitchell Mr. Bell you're quite up there as well is that what I have been somewhat
		educated to is the spiritual the truly the spiritual endeavor is something that we are truly Expounding upon here, and the scientific is truly just a just a well, a tad of a notch below that, in a way, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure that I fully understand the nature of that question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think he's saying: do you hold the spiritual above the scientific in terms of eventual answers?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		As a matter of fact, the thesis here is that we're in a natural universe, and that, by and large, it is explainable and knowable, and that if it is not, that will show up, too.
		But so far, it seems to be explainable and knowable, and certainly what we call the spiritual is an intimate, personal part of our existence.
		But I don't find it never-never land, supernatural, anything any more hierarchically above or below.
		I don't use those terms, above, below, and in a hierarchical sense.
		It just is.
		And it's a part of the universe that we experience.
		And our hope is to understand it better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You seem to be very much in sympathy with those who suggest that if the space program is moving slower right now, that's no big deal.
		Let's get it together here and then worry about space later.
		Is that about right?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		We've got lots of time.
		We've got about five billion years as long as this sun is still burning out there, which is about its lifetime.
		And right now, we've got some major problems here on Earth.
		We will eventually go on back to the moon.
		We will go on to Mars.
		We will go on.
		Our destiny, I believe, is to explore this universe.
		And we'll do that in due course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		right now we've got a direct care how worried was nasa that you might Were they concerned that you might bring back a little bug or a virus or something that you would step on and cling to you on the moon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long were you isolated when you came back?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we had three weeks.
		And we were the last flight to be post-flight quarantined.
		We were also the first flight to be pre-flight quarantined.
		So we had a double dose of it both before and after.
		why the pre-flight was that to a little Oh, that's right.
		And got bumped from the flight because of it, which, as it turned out, Ken helped get them back.
		So, as Jim Lovell says, blessings come in disguises.
		But we were pre-flight quarantined to prevent disease from getting into space, and we were post-flight quarantined to keep space disease from getting here.
		It turns out there wasn't any.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, since you were slated for 14, when the problems occurred to 13, I'm sure it had your attention.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, how close was it?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was darn close.
		See, Apollo 13 was originally my flight.
		When Alan Shepard came on the crew, we were slated to replace Gordon Cooper.
		We were slated to do the Apollo 13 flight.
		And NASA headquarters suggested that since Alan had not been in training for some time, he ought to take a little more time to train and negotiated a crew switch with Jim Lovell's crew, which was then Apollo 14.
		So we switched crews and switched missions.
		They got the bad bird and we got the good one.
		And that was kind of the break of the draw.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still, you must.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What were you doing when 13?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was doing exactly, if you saw Apollo 13, I was doing exactly in the lunar module what Ken Manningly was doing in the command module.
		Learning how to fly that beast as a lifeboat, low power, no power, manually.
		It's kind of like learning to take your sailboat on the open seas, or let's say your dinghy on the open seas, and turn it into a lifeboat to bring the major craft home.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it as frantic as depicted in Paul 13?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure frantic is the right word.
		It was high pressure, intense, and very, very methodical.
		As we tested everything we knew how to test, we used creativity to the ultimate extent because that particular failure, we practiced that failure.
		And when they gave it to us, we said, hey guys, you just killed us.
		We don't need to practice getting killed.
		So we never really practiced it, but we knew such a thing could happen.
		But when it really happened, then we had to go to work and figure out what to do about it.
		So we were just hours ahead of death all the time.
		These guys could have expired anytime in the next two or three hours.
		We were solving problems that were just warding off the ultimate destiny by hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If Apollo 13 had ended in disaster instead of a miracle virtually, would 14 have flown?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
		I don't know that it would have totally killed the program at that point, but it would certainly have been a major setback.
		Had we on Apollo 14 also messed up and not had a good mission, I think that would have definitely killed the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		This is Colleen from Farmington, New Mexico.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
unidentified		And I have two questions for Dr. Mitchell.
		The first one being, whose records would you suggest to look into the Roswell crash?
		The Army, Air Force, or Navy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The what, please?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Army, Air Force, or Navy.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know that those records are in either of those repositories anymore.
		People have been trying to do this for years, and it's in the literature.
		They've tried the Freedom of Information Act to get it.
		We get back documents that are blacked out mostly.
		So I don't know that that is the right approach.
		You use the Freedom of Information Act and go after the information.
		And we're really not going to get any more information until there's a general amnesty or release of classification on these particular documents?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, as you know, Dr. Ma'am, hold on a sec.
		They really did come out with fairly recent information saying, well, we lied.
		It really wasn't a balloon.
		The true story is, it was a different kind of balloon.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's the news story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the news story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, ma'am, you have another question?
unidentified		Yes, I do.
unidentified		Dr. Mitchell, do you have any knowledge of a crash at Aztec?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A crash at Aztec.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, I do not.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I think I've heard of that incident, but I have no personal knowledge about.
unidentified		Okay, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but again, you on balance are of the personal opinion that Roswell, that something did happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something did crash at Roswell.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think there's no doubt that something did crash.
		All right, I have to say, I am not an expert in any of these, particularly.
		I have followed other people or professional investigators.
		I have looked at the overall evidence.
		I have listened to testimony from very high-placed people with first-hand experience whom I find quite credible.
		But I do not consider myself an expert in this area at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, hold on.
		Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut, back in a moment.
		You're listening to the American CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		Music by Ben Thede
		Thank you.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Very rare opportunity, three-hour opportunity of that, to speak to somebody who's been where we haven't.
		The moon, he's Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell, and he'll be back in just a moment.
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	Now, back to Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Doctor?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
		Doctor, my one, a little earlier we talked about whether I would ever have a chance to fly as you flew or in any other way.
		I had one great experience, Doctor, and that was I flew in the Concorde from this country to Paris at Mach 2 Plus, and they let me go up into the cockpit at Mach 2, and it was all very exciting.
		And I remember putting my hand on the window when we were doing about Mach 2, and this thing was roaring along, and the window was so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		That's the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you flew at Mach.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I forgot how to convert it, but it's just figure for a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mach many?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Mach Mini.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		36,600 feet per second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, brother.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of temperatures during re-entry are reached?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's enough to ablate and melt the heat shield.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It comes up to several thousand, but I don't remember the exact number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Several thousand?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Several.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I've got a piece of it right here on my desk.
		It's very charred core from the heat shield that burns that phenolic block.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So without that heat shield, it's crispy critters.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's designed to melt away and carry the heat away.
		That's the way it's designed, is to ablate or melt.
		And big globs of it burn off and go streaking by the window on the way back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		God, that must be weird.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To realize that minus that, that would be you burning off and going by the windshield.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, fortunately, we have a pretty good thermal control system, but it does start to warm up and it has to work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I was going to ask that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did it, in other words, it doesn't remain a constant pretty 70 degrees inside.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, it starts to warm up a little bit, but the thermal controls then take over and keep you reasonably comfortable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Back to the phones we go.
		First time caller line.
		You're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, I'm a caller from Garden Grove.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Garden Grove, California.
unidentified		California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Dr. Mitchell, we're all pretty familiar with Neil Armstrong's first words when he stepped onto the moon.
unidentified		What were yours?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my first thought was, what am I doing here?
		But it's an awesome experience.
		It's absolutely wonderful.
		If you're an explorer, and that's the way I consider myself.
unidentified		Do you remember what you said though?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't remember what I said.
unidentified		It was probably a little more...
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Got the transcript right here.
		I just don't happen to remember exactly.
		It was more technical.
		It was more, let's get on with it.
unidentified		How about the first night you slept?
		What was your dream?
		Did you dream while you were on the moon?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It was pretty fitful sleeping.
		It was what?
		It was fitful sleeping because we were anxious.
		We were tilted a little bit.
		We landed on a slope.
		And we had the feeling that we were tipping over.
		Now, we knew we weren't, but the bodily feeling, the sensation, was one of tipping over.
		So we caught ourselves wanting to peek out the window every once in a while to make sure we weren't.
		Of course we weren't, and we knew that.
		But it was a very strange feeling.
		It was not a good night's sleep at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you leave the Earth, Doctor, and you leave the Earth's gravitational effect and you're suddenly weightless, can you explain to people who have probably always wondered what that feels like?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		The best simulation of it is underwater if you're a scuba diver.
		Go underwater, ballast, weightless.
		Close your eyes so you don't see which way the bubbles go and remain motionless.
		That's the way it feels.
		Or if you happen to be a pilot, you can go up and do a ballistic trajectory and kind of float like a rock floating through the sky, and you'll get the same feeling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've heard it described as one of falling, too.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Falling.
		Well, that's what happens.
		It's the same sensation as falling.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you have nausea, any illness, or did you just take to it like a fish to water?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we conditioned because some folks had inner ear vertigo disorientation.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		We went up and practiced in our T-38 trainers doing all sorts of aerobatic maneuvers to push ourselves right to the verge of sickness and vertigo and train the inner ear so that we could control it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you enter all this with any trepidation or great thought about it before you did it, or was it just plunge ahead?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hell yes, I want to do this.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, my goal had been set since 1957, as I explained earlier.
		And I think most of our class, there were 19 of us selected in 1966.
		Most of our class had the feeling, you mean we get paid for doing this?
		Isn't it wonderful?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I know that feeling.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		We were really eager to go do the job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but at that moment, when you were all up in that capsule up on top of that great big potential bomb, there must have been a moment just before launch when you all looked at each other, busy as you must have been.
		We sort of looked at each other and said, Okay, guys, here we go.
		Knock on wood.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Stu Russo, now deceased, good green command module pilot, used to call those moments sweaty palms time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		And every time we would ignite the engines, he'd say, Okay, gentlemen, it's sweaty palms time again.
		Because there's always that moment of apprehension, is it going to work?
		This equipment had never been tested in space, as you know.
		It was throwaway equipment.
		Once you use it, it's done.
		And so each piece of equipment is brand new.
		And you always have that concern when you start it off.
		Is it going to work properly?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wild Carline, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, good morning, Edgar.
		I'm a retired Air Force officer who had the occasion about 20 years ago to invite Buzz Aldrin up to Mellis Air Force Base for an award ceremony and hosted him for a couple of days.
		I consequently got to talk to him at length.
		And while he was open to talking about his problems and confusion, he was reluctant to talk about his experiences and sightings of the UFOs.
		Was it that time, and is there still a precondition to talking about those kind of encounters, sites?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		We didn't have any of those encounters as far as I know, including Buzz.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		But there may be things I don't know, but I don't believe so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did Buzz Aldrin tell you he saw UFOs?
unidentified		Yes, he did.
unidentified		He said there were most of the astronauts had had some experiences with disks, lights.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, that is simply not true.
		That's just not true.
		I don't know where you're getting your information, but I'm sorry.
unidentified		How about his experiences in specific?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if he's not aware of Mr. Aldrin's experiences, he can't comment on them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as far as his are concerned, he said he had none, right?
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there you are.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
		Good morning.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Are you talking to me, Arnold?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's you I'm talking to, yeah.
unidentified		All right, good morning.
		I'm a longtime listener.
		This is the first time I ever called you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Galveston County, not too far from NASA down here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
unidentified		I didn't know until the night that you and I walked on the same ground.
unidentified		I was an Air Force medic at Lachlan Air Force Base for four years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all they did to me at Lachlan was give me eight weeks of hell.
unidentified		Well, I'm also a ham radio operator.
		Well, all right.
		There you are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got a lot in common then.
unidentified		Yeah, let me, I've got something to talk about to the doctor there.
		Boy, he hits something.
		This is a really interesting night, Art, and you're killing me.
		You keep me awake.
		I found out early in my teens that I was a psychic healer of sorts, and as I grew older, I discovered a lot more about it, and I did a lot of it.
		And I never would charge anything for it, and it got to where it was aggravating.
		People would call me in the middle of the night to go take care of back pains and next chronic problems I'm talking about.
		And it kind of created some problems at home.
		So about 10 or 12 years ago, I just started just kind of just dropping away and not, you know, more or less kind of going into denial with this thing.
		And I'm very careful about who I do it with now and who I take care of their problems.
		But I've been, in 95% of the time I'm 100% effective, and about 5% of the time I'm about 95% effective.
		My big question is, I don't know where this comes from and I never would charge anything for the gift, I guess you'd call it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's ask where it does come from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, you related the experience with your mother.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's the way we're built.
		We all have that capability.
		Now, not everyone is able to exercise it as effectively as this gentleman can.
		It probably has a genetic component that allows us to manifest it, but it's really more the neural connections in the brain.
		We're now very convinced, as a matter of fact, this is part of what we're trying to make some visuals with the North Tower Film Group on these areas.
		We're now quite convinced that we can train people to do all of these things, particularly if we begin prenatally.
		The brain is like any muscle in the sense that its capabilities, you either use them or lose them.
		And it's amazing the number of capabilities that we have as very, very young children, that because we don't exercise them or they are negated by doubting parents, those neurological connections then are pruned off.
		Nature does that.
		Either use them or lose them.
		But it turns out you can get them back, some of them, with arduous work much later in life.
		So they're not lost forever.
		But we all seem to have these rather amazing capabilities.
		I call them creative capabilities.
		It goes to the whole area of healing, psychokinetic stuff, the things that Uri Galler does, the healers that I work with, the gentleman that's our caller.
		Everybody has these capabilities latent.
		And I'm convinced that they're emerging.
		We will learn to use them better.
		They're a part of our right-left brain complex that we can very quickly learn to use better if we put an effort to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's take the example of your mother and the story you told us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That healing, doctor, did that come to your mother from an external source, the healer, or did that come because your mother believed?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Both.
		It's the interaction of the two.
		The healing comes from within us.
		The body knows how to heal itself.
		We have to get out of the way.
		And quite often someone else can help us get out of the way.
		So we've got to get our mind out of the way.
		I think the actual energy itself Is the basic energy comes from within the body, and that repository, the source of that energy, is the zero-point field.
		I think that more than likely, and this is speculative stuff, that probably the people that use acupuncture, the ancient Orientals that learned acupuncture, that the little acupuncture needles are probably the mechanism for accessing the zero-point field.
		So they're an energetic mechanism.
		And it's both.
		It is both the healing comes from within ourselves, but an external healer helps us access it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I am in Rawling, Wyoming.
		All right.
		This question I'd like to pose.
		It's kind of a multifaceted question.
		Me and a friend of mine discussed something about actual artificial intelligence.
		I'd like to know if the government or he or a group of his comrades have been working on anything like this, artificial intelligence in the form like a cyborg or a robot?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we were actually discussing that a little earlier.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Very briefly on that, artificial intelligence is just managing information.
		And we're being very, very successful at artificial ways or robotic ways or computerized ways to manage information.
		But the real question is, what is the difference between the way the biological organism manages information and a computer chip?
		I maintain that there's always going to be a difference, but we're getting pretty sophisticated with artificial intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are, and it's an interesting thing to wonder where it's going.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and we don't have an answer to that.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It's just going to go where we can take it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're never really going to limit ourselves in terms of how far we go, are we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we're always going to have debates about whether we're getting in God's or the Creator's territory, but we're going there anyway, aren't we?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I think that's true.
		The question is, what is the value system, the moral system that we evolved to guide our volition?
		And it's very clear that we do not have the proper guidance for our current technologies.
		We are way ahead in our technological capability of our understanding of morality and ethics and so forth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That brings me to a very important point, whether it's the HAARP project that I touched on a little while ago, or it's scientists doing medical experimentation.
		For example, and I certainly don't necessarily object to it, but there was an experiment in San Francisco in which they attempted to inject a baboon's immune system into a human being, who had AIDS, and virtually destroyed his immune system and tried to substitute a baboon's.
		And the scientists, after they announced it, doctor, said, well, yes, there is some danger to humankind that some virus that was from the baboon may be introduced to human beings in this way.
		Some danger, but they went ahead and did it and sort of told us about it afterwards.
		So we are getting ahead of things in a lot of cases.
		Scientists are into areas where, to me, it's a little worrisome.
		You feel that too?
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I thought it's very, very worrisome.
		I'm very concerned about not understanding the implications of our decisions, particularly in genetic research, in this sort of biological research.
		You know, these viruses are organisms too, and they need to survive.
		The survival impulse runs throughout nature.
		And nature is going to try to find a way, each level, to make itself survive.
		We have to be quite careful about what we're doing here.
		We have to invent, discover a new way of looking at morality and ethics.
		And it derives from what is the nature of the universe that we're living in?
		Who are we really?
		And those questions need to matter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that the race between technology and our ability to control it morally or ethically is going to be lost, or are we going to catch up to it and say to ourselves, now wait a minute, let's think a little bit before we do this.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		I am the eternal optimist that we humankind will come to our senses, recognize the problem, and deal with it.
		Will we have bits and starts and scare ourselves half to death and proceed along the course of the limbings?
		Certainly for a while.
		It goes by bits and starts.
		It's not a smooth path.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, we are utterly out of time, and so we're going to have to end it here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I would like to say someday I would sure like to have you back again.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe we can work that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		It has been a pleasure being with you, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		And Dr. Mitchell, I'm going to give you the honors.
		The honors here are...
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, America.
dr edgar mitchell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care, Dr. Mitchell.
		All right, that's Dr. Edgar Mitchell and Apollo 14 astronaut, Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
		Thank you all.
		It has been a glorious night, as always.
		Dreamland Sunday back with the syndicated program Monday night, Tuesday morning.
		Thank you all from the high desert.

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