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April 26, 1996 - Art Bell

03:06:12

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Edgar Mitchell - An Extraordinary Career

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	Call Art Bell toll free.
	Good morning, everybody.
	I'm Art Bell.
	We're just gonna be here rockin' through the night, about 1 a.m.
	1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Exactly what it is. Good morning everybody. I'm Art Bell.
	We're just going to be here rocking through the night.
	About 1 a.m. Pacific, an hour from now.
	Dr. Edgar Mitchell will get it out.
	The Apollo 14 astronaut, Edgar Mitchell, will be here.
	That should be interesting.
	Otherwise, we're talking of the news, and it's not good news.
	Things in this country surely are changing.
	That six-year-old may be charged with attempted murder, premeditated murder.
	There are now signs that this child actually premeditated Trying to beat this baby to death.
	Nobody knows what to do about it.
	It really is a problem.
	Crimes of this sort on the increase 300% the last decade.
	You want to shake your head?
	Go ahead.
	It's all I've been able to do with it.
	What do you do with a six-year-old child who... Well, actually...
	It's said now that this child thought that he had to kill the infant, the 30-day-old infant, because his family was being harassed.
	His, the six-year-old family's family was being harassed.
	In Georgia, there have been the arrest of two men.
	They say militia-connected.
	Proclaim to be in the militia.
	One of the men, commander of a militia, was making bombs, pipe bombs, and burying them against the day when they'd have to be used against the government.
	It's a strange world.
	May you live in interesting times, the pursuant with more.
	Art, did you go to Shepard Air Force Base after Lackland?
	If so, what squadron were you in and what was your FSC?
	No, not Shepard.
	I went to Amarillo after tech school.
	Then he asks, where was I when President Kennedy was assassinated?
	Everybody remembers that, of course, and I was in the hospital as a worker at Lackland at the moment of the assassination.
	And, of course, I'll never forget that.
	I was for your edification.
	My FSC was a 90250.
	I was a medic in the Air Force.
	All right.
	Back to the lines.
	East of the Rockies.
	You're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	This is Tim from Indiana.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, I had a question for the astronaut.
	All right.
	In regards to, like, oh, now I'm having a problem remembering.
	Here, I'll get it.
	When they were having to maneuver the spaceship to go to the moon, were there any times in which they were flying there that they had problems with, you know, their guidance or anything like that?
	Because after watching the Apollo 13, I kind of wondered how he felt, you know, going to the moon right after that happening.
	Yes, that's a very good question and you can be sure I'll ask it.
	You can be sure.
	I'll ask it.
	Sure.
	The mission after 13 must have been something of a terror.
	How could they know there would not be a repeat?
	The 13 astronauts missing it by that much.
	Escaping by that much.
	How could they not be very concerned that there would be a repeat?
	I'm sure they were.
	And that is a good question.
	First time caller line.
	You're on the air.
	Hi.
	Well, good evening, actually.
	Yes, actually.
	I'm calling from KSI Road, Santa Rosa.
	I actually live in Rona Park, California.
	Yes, ma'am.
	About 50 miles north of the Bay.
	I'm calling because I've pretty well followed the tragedy of the six-year-old for some time.
	And you know, there's one question that I have never been answered.
	Maybe somebody knows it.
	Where were the parents or the caretakers of these children when this happened?
	It seems strange that a one-month-old child would be left unattended, and no one heard it cry, no one heard it fall, no one heard of the assault on its little body.
	I find that shocking.
	Well, you said you've been following this very closely, so you should have those answers for us.
	I've never read a thing about that, never heard a thing about that.
	That makes two of us.
	Oh, that's true of you too?
	Yeah.
	Are you a parent?
	I'm a parent and a grandparent both.
	Would that baby not cry?
	are you a parent? I'm a parent and a grandparent both.
	okay well then you remember I too was a parent there are times I guess when you're in another
	room another part of the house
	I mean would that baby not cry?
	would that baby not hear it sometimes before?
	Would they not hear these kids coughing?
	Maybe they covered its mouth.
	I mean, from what I've heard, they intended to kill it, right?
	That's what they're charging the six-year-old with.
	So, if you're going to do that, you might cover up its little mouth, mightn't you?
	Sure.
	Sure.
	And regarding Dr. Mitchell, I'm wondering if there was no cough involved?
	Would he recommend the rest of us take a vacation on the moon?
	What about the stress getting there and getting back?
	Would that be a trip to take?
	Would it be worth it?
	Would you?
	I don't think so.
	I don't know if being on the moon would be worth the trip going and coming.
	Oh, yes it would.
	Would it?
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, great.
	I'm glad you like it.
	Oh, absolutely.
	I'd go in a second.
	I'd go in a second.
	Thank you very much.
	Sure, I'd go in a second.
	You know, but that's me.
	Oh, you bet.
	Would it be worth it?
	A few days cooped up in a spaceship?
	With no gravity?
	Would it be worth it?
	Oh, hell yes.
	I would do it in a second.
	I'd do it in a second.
	Especially at my age.
	Maybe a young person would think harder about it.
	I don't know.
	I can't imagine it.
	There are, though, a lot of people who wouldn't even think about it.
	I wouldn't hesitate for a second.
	People risk their lives, given the odds, with the record they had, for much less.
	And even though we're going to get Dr. Mitchell's words this morning about what it was like on the moon, I guess there are no words that would do justice to actually being there.
	Are there.
	First time caller on line.
	You're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Yes.
	Dale from Tacoma.
	Yes, sir.
	Ed Mitchell and Alan Shepard, when they were descending, their landing radar was out.
	And I was always curious if they were going to land without it.
	Cute asking that.
	I'd appreciate it.
	You're saying when they were headed down to the moon, their landing radar was out?
	It was non-functional.
	It turned out to be it was just locked up.
	They got it working again before their Before the limit, but it was out when they were going down, and there was a point in time when they were not supposed to land if it didn't come on, and of course it came on, but I was just curious if you had any insight on that.
	Would you, had you been on that mission, I mean to get that far, to be in the LM, and then to have the landing radar fail, I mean, you're halfway down, or whatever.
	Would you keep going?
	Would you say, sorry, Houston, missed that transmission?
	Me?
	Well, I probably would have.
	Would you abort the mission?
	You'd keep going, huh?
	Well, he wasn't in charge.
	Of course, Alan was the man landing it, and it was his final say.
	If it was up to me, I probably would have, because you went that far, and I mean, crash, who cares?
	Sorry, Houston.
	Yeah, right, I didn't catch that last one.
	Transmission was terrible.
	But I was really into it as a child, and have all the tapes on that, and in fact I got that from Moonshot, the documentary by Slayton.
	Yes.
	And I was just curious, if you could ask him that, I thought it would be kind of interesting.
	Okay.
	Okay, thanks a lot.
	Thank you.
	Bye.
	I'll try to get all these.
	Now obviously I'm beginning to compile quite a list of questions here.
	So, I'll do what I can, and I have no idea for how long we have him.
	So, we'll try and get as much of this in as we're able.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, this is Janine from Bellingham.
	Hi, Janine.
	Hi, I've got some insights about this six-year-old.
	Alright.
	Yeah, I was flipping through the channels on my day off and looking at some of the morning time cartoons that are on, and it always seems to be The good guys and the bad guys, and the one that comes and saves the day, and I was just really appalled at, you know, it's okay to kill.
	Janine, I don't think it was TV.
	How old are you?
	Me?
	I'm 33.
	33, alright.
	When I was a child, I watched all of those tunes.
	I watched especially the Roadrunner.
	You know where in one scene the Roadrunner is actually Wile E. Coyote is absolutely destroyed or gets smushed or something and he's back up and bouncing around in the next scene?
	I watched all of that and that didn't lead me in any sort of direction of assuming that violence was alright.
	I never for a second believed that.
	Yeah.
	Well, I have a six-year-old and a nine-year-old kids, and both of them are extremely compassionate, loving children.
	It wouldn't affect them, but I think a child that wasn't really brought up in a super loving home, bonded with the mother at birth and really loved might become kind of disconnected from society and just kind of buy into that violent thing.
	I don't know.
	It's hard to understand.
	When I saw these children's cartoons that are on, it just kind of struck me that maybe that was part of the problem.
	I appreciate the call, and we'll think about that, of course.
	And I did think about that, and I've seen the experts endlessly talking on CNN and elsewhere, you know, about this thing.
	They talk about television and about cartoon characters, but hell, I watched all that stuff, and I bet a lot of you did, too.
	And I don't for a second believe that that is the factor that could precipitate a 300% change in these kinds of crimes in a decade.
	I don't believe that for a second.
	There's something else at work here.
	Cartoons were always that way.
	Remember Tweety Bird?
	I mean we could go on and on and on and on with cartoons where there was violence in one second, a curse smash, a kaboom, a fall off a cliff, Oh, let me document the ways!
	And then in the next scene, they're back up, unsmushed, and back at it.
	And the charge is, well, children see this kind of thing, and they assume that they're not really doing any harm.
	Bull.
	I'm sorry to say I believe that child.
	I believe.
	My belief.
	Knew what it was doing.
	The signs are that it did.
	And now, the more that I think back on it, at even six, I... I would've... I knew.
	Didn't you?
	You understand death and dying, even at six.
	Sure, you did.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Yes, Mr. Bell.
	Yes, that's true.
	I was trying to get through last night to speak to Mr. Holand.
	Would you turn your radio off for us, please?
	Yes, I sure did.
	That's good.
	Question for you.
	Now, I've heard references to Zachariah Sitchin, and he was actually the first time I'd ever read of the Sidonia region.
	And the pyramids and other structures that are on Mars.
	I was wondering if you knew anything about, say, corresponding theories that Mr. Sitchin might have, along with Mr. Hoagland?
	Well, yes.
	You'd want to read a book called The Twelfth Planet, sir, by Zachariah Sitchin.
	Twelfth Planet.
	And a full series of books.
	We'll have Zachariah Sitchin Back on again.
	He is a very, very interesting guest.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Mr. Bell.
	Mr. Caller.
	My name is Phil.
	I'm calling from KCMO country.
	Hi, Phil.
	Mike Murphy country, we call it.
	You bet.
	Listen, may change the subject just a little bit, but I'm wondering on this Gordon Michael Scallion situation, his predictions.
	I haven't heard much out of him lately.
	Well, he hasn't been on the air.
	I got a fax from Gordon's people the other day, and he's on a break.
	He has long periods of time where after taking or having visions, he is not well.
	Oh, really?
	Not truly sick, but very exhausted.
	And so he's on a break right now.
	Okay.
	He did predict, made a prediction on Paranormal Borderline regarding Phobos.
	And his assistant Harold said, I'd prefer not to comment until we get an actual script of what Gordon Michael said on Paranormal Borderline.
	So otherwise we'll be commenting in the blind.
	So that's where we are with that.
	One more thing, if you don't mind.
	On his set of earthquakes that he predicted, it's three sets of four?
	Yes.
	Four sets of three?
	Three sets of four.
	Three sets of four.
	Where are we at on that?
	Not complete.
	I didn't think so.
	I didn't think so.
	Every time I heard... You'd know.
	There'd be a big news bulletin, you know, CNN breaking news, and there'd be a shot of where California used to be.
	But we're in the third set.
	You'll know, sir.
	Okay.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	If it completes, trust me, you'll know.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yeah, this is Steve in Portland.
	Hi, Steve.
	And my question for Edgar would be about what happens in the debriefing process after they come back.
	You mean where they tell you what you can say and what you can't?
	Yeah, exactly.
	I mean, because it's always mysterious.
	They pick them up out of the ocean, and then they'd be gone for a while.
	Well, yes.
	I believe in the beginning they were doing quite a isolation period after they came back.
	And then the other thing would be, was he anticipating finding any great discovery on the moon as he was going there?
	And then could he have told us about it if he had?
	All right.
	Those are all fair questions.
	Thank you.
	I'll consider those.
	Or maybe more to the point, what did you see that you haven't told anybody about?
	You know what kind of answer you're going to get to that question, though, don't you?
	Actually, I guess I can't say that.
	I have no idea what kind of answer we're going to get to these questions, so I will not presume.
	With a little bit of luck, Dr. Edgar Mitchell
	Apollo 14's Edgar Mitchell coming up in about 37 minutes or so
	You hear this music on my show just about every night sometimes
	several times in one night It's the awesome music of my favorite group, Kuzco.
	Well now listen, they've got a special offer only for my listeners.
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	That includes postage.
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	Again, that number, 1-800-562-8283.
	Higher Octave and Cusco.
	Alright, just a little promo here.
	We did a full five hours with Richard Hoagland last night.
	It was an amazing five hours, actually.
	And if you would like a copy of that program with Richard Hoagland, Or you would like to order our newsletter, and let me tell you right now, we have got an issue coming up, the cutoff date of which is Sunday night, right after Dreamland.
	It has got some of the most definitively beautiful crop circle photographs in it that you're ever going to see in your life.
	The next issue is going to have arts parts for the Roswell stuff, those photos in it.
	But this one you don't want to miss.
	So whether you want to order our newsletter, get a copy of the show last night, whatever, here's the number.
	It's 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	Didn't hear the whole thing.
	Also, coming this week on Dreamland, Robert Ghostwolf, this Sunday.
	A Lakota Iroquois shaman on Native American prophecy, and so that should be Most interesting, if you don't have Dreamland as of yet, contact your radio station, wherever that is, and ask politely that they try to find room to carry it.
	And they can do that by carrying it live, or offsetting the hours.
	They can do it any way they like.
	Let's see, there's something else I'm supposed to do here, too.
	Ah!
	Mother's Day cometh!
	You know it's what, a week away?
	A little better than a week away.
	Something like that.
	What is today?
	No, it's two weeks away.
	It's almost the middle of the month.
	13th, 14th.
	Something like that.
	Sunday, I think.
	It would be a good time now to order absolutely fresh flowers for your mom.
	Because there is a chance you will not catch my programs coming up toward Mother's Day.
	And you can in fact order right now.
	Just get it out of the way.
	Get it done.
	And you can actually then forget it, because it'll be done.
	You can be sure that FedEx will be there just before Mother's Day.
	Flowers in hand, this giant triangular box full of miniature carnations, you can be sure they'll be there.
	But if you blow it off, and you forget it, well, you may not hear the program again, catch the number, and then it'll be too late for you, so Look, write the number down, I'm going to give you.
	These are miniature carnations, more than anybody's ever seen, with a card from you, your message, your name, happy birthday, Mother's Day, Mom.
	Your name at the bottom, signed at the bottom, all handwritten.
	That's quite a bit for $42.95.
	Plan ahead, do it now.
	Plan ahead and do it now.
	1-800-562-6438 That's 1-800-562-6438.
	Absolutely fresh flowers east of the Rockies.
	You're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Charles.
	St.
	Louis.
	Hi, Charles.
	Yes.
	How you doing?
	Fine.
	Just one little question.
	Well, the guy, he took my question about the debriefing period and the period of isolation.
	You know, how long would he be in the debriefing period.
	Right.
	But one other little question was, About the gravity, I would like to know how did the gravity feel?
	Could he jump as high as he could on Earth?
	My question went the same way.
	In other words, I want to know if the whole thing was fun.
	And that, to me, getting up in zero or near zero gravity, particularly near zero gravity, that would be fun.
	Yeah.
	Jumping around?
	Yeah.
	Sort of like Superman?
	Yeah.
	Oh yeah.
	Yeah, that is basically all.
	You know what I want to know, too?
	What's that?
	We went to the moon, went to the moon, went to the moon.
	Now we haven't gone to the moon in 30 years.
	How come?
	Yeah, that fits me.
	I'd love to hear the answer to that one.
	Thank you very much.
	30 years.
	We did it.
	We did it again and again and again.
	Then we just flat stopped.
	How come?
	There ought to be a good answer for that one, shouldn't there?
	We'll be right back.
	Thank you for your attention.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1222.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, I am indeed here at the top of the hour.
	If all goes well, and I say if all goes well, because one never knows, Dr. Edgar Mitchell is due to be here, the Apollo 14 astronaut.
	Guy who walked on the moon.
	And here's a good question from somebody out there.
	Art, I can imagine the gambit of emotions that one would experience as you look from the moon to your world, the one On which you experienced your childhood and life experience.
	Art, please ask Dr. Mitchell what was his first emotion in question at the moment he realized out there your vision of the moon and universe from the eyes of his youth was now at his feet.
	Did he ever experience sadness for the people on earth?
	And if so, why?
	Sadness for the people on earth.
	I wouldn't think that would be the emotion, but we will surely ask him.
	West of the Rockies, you are on the air, top of the morning.
	Oh, good morning, Art.
	Good morning.
	I lost my train of thought, I'm sorry.
	Well, you never got it.
	Actually, I want to comment on that guy that called about a week ago.
	I thought that was the most hilarious thing I've ever heard in my life.
	Which guy are you talking about?
	The one that was calling you a demon.
	Oh yeah, that was such a good call that we've taken it and put it up on the internet on my webpage.
	You can actually download that call and listen to it.
	Oh, you're kidding me.
	The guy who thought I was a devil's toe jam, right?
	I was laughing so hard I was rolling on the floor.
	I know, it's a good call.
	No, it was a good call, and also I'm not sure if the American people are ready either to find out about UFOs or... No, I'm not sure either.
	I've said this and people take me to task for it, but I think the Brookings Report is probably accurate, and that really puts me in a stinking position with the materials that I've got in the report I'm going to be getting.
	Assuming that it would come back to anything but normal materials, you know, I'd have to sit down and think about it.
	Exactly.
	And also, about that six-year-old boy.
	Yes.
	What the heck do you do?
	I mean, it is a really sad thing that the 30-day-old baby is probably going to die, and I'm really sorry for that.
	I know.
	I appreciate the call.
	The father and mother of the baby who had three other children. Get this, folks.
	According to the Associated Press, we're out shopping, grocery shopping, at the time of the
	beating. They had not taken the young Ignacio along because he had a cough. They worried
	the chilly evening air would make it worse. So the parents of this little baby weren't
	home. They left it home alone.
	Who the hell would leave a 30-day-old child at home alone?
	There's one good point.
	Now, so the parents of the infant were not even home at the time.
	They don't say anybody was left there with the infant.
	So... That's crazy.
	That's crazy.
	Never left my son alone for a second.
	Well, alone maybe in a room.
	That's what I speculated about earlier, but not alone in the house.
	Of course not.
	There could be a fire.
	Anything could happen.
	So that's an amazing bit of news.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	I'd like to ask you two questions for tonight.
	Now, what was this thing about this guy calling you a demon?
	Oh, you had to hear the call.
	Um, can you, uh, tell me about it, basically?
	About what the basic of the conversation was?
	You already covered it.
	He just called you a demon and hung up?
	No.
	He kept calling me a demon for at least three minutes.
	The devil's mouthpiece.
	The devil's toe jam.
	What did he say before that to make you... The burning pits of hell!
	Oh, okay.
	And, uh, the six-year-old boy, do you think he should get the chair?
	What would that be, the high chair?
	No, electric chair.
	Oh, I see.
	Did that 30-month-old or whatever die?
	What's going on with that baby?
	30-day-old baby, sir.
	The baby is in critical condition on life support.
	Has been that way for now into the sixth day.
	So that you might know.
	And of course, when they're in critical condition, it's unknown whether they're going to make it or not.
	Okay, wildcard line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	Dave calling from KEX Country.
	Hi, Dave.
	Am I to understand, Art, that you don't feel that cartoons or TV in general have any effect on children?
	No, I didn't say that.
	Okay, you said cartoons don't, though.
	No, I didn't say that.
	What I said was, I watched cartoons all my young life.
	How old are you, Dave?
	I'm 38.
	38.
	Did you watch cartoons when you were a kid?
	I sure did.
	How many murders have you committed?
	You mean counting this month?
	Oh, yes.
	None.
	All right.
	Well, so the cartoons, you know, Roadrunner and otherwise, didn't affect me.
	I knew they were cartoons.
	I understood the difference between cartoons in real life.
	I never murdered... Well, I did put a big shovel mark in the middle of my sister's nose, but I never murdered anybody, and you didn't, and I don't think the average person did.
	So, I think it's controversial.
	I do think television has some effect, but I don't think it's turned our youngsters, in the last decade, into murderers.
	Well, the reason I bring that up is because I live with a woman who had a child who used to watch the He-Man cartoon.
	Are you familiar with that?
	Of course.
	Well one day I caught, he was six at the time, and he took his little brother's head and stepped on it just like the cartoon.
	Now I'm not saying he's going to turn into a murderer or anything like that, but I do feel with the psychological studies that where they show the adult modeling against one of those
	dolls that you hit and it comes right back up. You remember what I'm talking
	about?
	Do you honestly think that cartoons are showing any less death, dying, or smushing
	in the last decade than they did in decades previous?
	Well, I don't remember the He-Man type of thing. Those He-Man or those Wonder, whatever they are,
	that show actually more humans. I mean, seeing the Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote,
	I think, I'm not saying that was any less, but I'm just saying that now they show more of, like,
	what looks like mommy and daddy on the actual TV screen that are beaten up on cartoon characters.
	That's all I'm trying to say.
	Okay.
	Well, I appreciate it.
	Thank you.
	I don't rule it out.
	I've always thought that television does have some effect.
	And I've always thought that there ought to be some sort of, you know, you hate the word censorship, but some Restraint shown in the period of time during which children get home from school, a lot of them latchkey, and the later evening programming.
	You know, there's kind of a window in there where they come home, open the door, shut it, grab a Coke, sit down in front of the television, and away you go.
	So, I don't think it's the main and or only factor But it probably, it probably has an effect.
	I think it has an effect.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Whoops, would have been.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	Yes, sir.
	This is C.J.
	from Blanchard, California.
	Hi, C.J.
	I've got a couple things for you.
	One's a what-if, and the other one is, having worked for the dark side of our government in past years... You did?
	Yes, I did.
	And the oath of silence is something taken very seriously by people who work for the dark side of the government.
	And though you might not say that the astronauts worked for the dark side, they truly did.
	They worked for the DoD.
	Would that apply to people who went to the dark side of the moon?
	No, I just call the dark side of the government anything to do with the national security.
	And I termed it the dark side because there is truly a dark side to our government.
	There is to every government.
	Well, there is a dark side to stealth work.
	But it is in the cause of national security.
	That doesn't make it always dark.
	Oh, I understand that.
	Or at least people should understand the context of dark.
	National security is by nature stealth, and I guess you could say that's dark, but it's not always bad.
	Well, many dark things happen.
	I've been working for nearly 15 years for the dark side of our government, and I've found plenty of dark things.
	But, you know, so I understand that oath of silence thing, and I think that they're just kind of dribbling this out like you've speculated and others have speculated, and this might be a way for them to get about doing it.
	Well, I don't expect Dr. Mitchell to come on this morning and say, you know, Richard Hoagland's right.
	We didn't tell you about the 20 mile high structures.
	We just sort of left it out at the time.
	I don't expect to hear that.
	Oh, right.
	I understand that.
	And that comes along with my what if.
	I want people to imagine this now.
	Tomorrow, a UFO, a nice large one, lands at the UN and they walk inside and they talk for two hours and the whole time all the world's got TV cameras CNN and everybody else has got their TV cameras there.
	What do you imagine the percentage of people that would just go absolutely bonkers and
	think their life is over and the world would just be in a total uproar?
	So I think you're right when you say you don't think that they're ready.
	The Brookings Report is probably right.
	People would just literally freak.
	I mean, totally anachronistic.
	They would just take over in a matter of hours.
	Well, I hate to believe that, but I'm afraid I do.
	I think enough people would just literally lose it because of it.
	I mean, there'd be people jumping out of windows, for starters, and another percentage of people
	would be running out and robbing banks and headed for the hills.
	So I mean, I want everybody to think about that.
	What if that happened tomorrow?
	What do they think would happen?
	All the people that they know, how many of the people that they know could handle this
	rationally and some who wouldn't handle this rationally?
	enough crazy people are ready well it happened i would be a mixture and uh...
	I Absolutely true that a lot of people would not handle it well.
	And it would not take a lot of people not to handle it well to cause a big problem.
	So there you are and I just think that is a fact and it leaves me in a very tough spot with regard to the materials that I have.
	No question about that.
	Aren't May 7th Paranormal Borderline is at 9 p.m.
	Eastern or Western?
	I think it's nine.
	I think it's nine o'clock here in the West.
	I'm pretty sure it's nine o'clock, but I'm not positive, so check your TV guide.
	All right?
	Richard Hoagland was supposedly to team up with Sarah McLendon.
	What happened?
	Well, they did get together is what happened, and Sarah McLendon wrote an article about it.
	You should put your hands on that, sir.
	All right.
	Back to the lines.
	First time caller line.
	You're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	I have something to report that I have an 8mm movie film that is in color that was taken in 1967.
	Yes.
	And it's a view out of an airplane cockpit window.
	Would you turn down your radio, please?
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	A view, an 8mm film, a view outside an airplane cockpit window?
	Yes.
	And in the film I put it under a microscope and I can make out an absolute elliptical shaped object that is glowing with a very bright white light because the light is reflecting into the cockpit window.
	I have 12 years of experience working in technical areas and I work now as a, I guess I'm repairing computer robotics boards.
	You guess?
	Well, that's one of the things that I work on, among many other electronic type things.
	Anyway, I have this film and I'm kind of like worried about how to get it analyzed.
	I'd like some kind of a professional team to look at this.
	I acquired the film.
	I did not take the film.
	How did you acquire it?
	Through a friend of a friend.
	A friend of a friend?
	An older lady friend of mine.
	She acquired the film from Some friends of hers who are older gentlemen and they turned it over to her because they wanted me to make a videotape of the film for them so they could put it on their VCR.
	Yeah, I was going to suggest that.
	Get the film converted to video.
	Then you'll be able to supply copies and you can get several first generation copies made and get one of those analyzed without risking your original film.
	That's what I guess I would do.
	And most photographic stores can accomplish that for you.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, yes.
	Are you not speaking with a person at this time?
	Are you a person?
	Oh, yeah.
	I'm speaking with you.
	And there is a delay.
	Turn your radio off and you won't worry about it.
	Oh, well, I thought you still had the lady caller on there.
	Well, I have a delay, sir.
	Oh, OK.
	Turn your radio off.
	Okay, fine.
	Yeah, a couple quick comments here.
	The matter you mentioned about the telephone, well, the ringing only for so long is that I called the phone company about that and they claimed that was a policy of the 1-800, the radio station.
	You know, that was your, well, y'all's doing, so to speak.
	No, that is inaccurate.
	Well, okay, good.
	I'm totally, absolutely, utterly inaccurate.
	We have been as high in the phone company as you can get trying to get it changed.
	Yeah, because, see, that happened to me two times just tonight.
	It happens to everybody, sir.
	Yeah, it's a little bit... Annoying.
	And like I said, I called and I talked and she was vehement about it.
	Well, she is wrong.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Also that the, oh yeah, the Unsolved Mysteries had the That's right.
	What did you think?
	Well, actually, I'm not, I wouldn't be surprised, you know, with all the footage I've seen.
	I'm going on 40 years old here and with all the footage I've seen and this and that with the Yeti, the Sasquatch, I have the plesiosaur theory of the Loch Ness, the giant squid, etc.
	I have no problem with that.
	We've got things far beyond the concern about that.
	But the new movie coming out, as a matter of fact, you mentioned, someone asked you a while back, your favorite science fiction movie.
	I'm sure you've seen the day there's still 1951.
	Long ago.
	Yes.
	Michael Rennie, wasn't it?
	Yes, indeed.
	Excellent actor.
	I wish I could have met that fellow.
	Now, the new movie coming up is Independence Day.
	Yes.
	Any sort of First-hand information, anything that the general public doesn't have any knowledge of.
	Does everything you're going to see in Independence Day, sir, is absolutely true?
	Ah, I see.
	Well, okay, yeah, matter of fact, a couple of questions there for the, uh, Dr. Mitchell there.
	Yes, let's try that.
	Is it, um, the, uh, well, the Nazca Plain in Peru, that seems rather obvious.
	The what?
	The Nazca Plain in Peru.
	With all the lines and... Oh, yes, yes, yes.
	Yes.
	And then, now, Tunguska, matter of fact, I didn't get a chance to ask Mr. Hoagland last night.
	It's just so much, golly, it's just... It's Siberia.
	The explosion.
	Supposedly, it was a Tesla experiment that was off by a couple degrees, so to speak, or... Well, that... Alright, thank you.
	That's all very controversial.
	Was it something from elsewhere that slammed in?
	Was it a Tesla experiment gone wild?
	Nobody knows.
	Microtech.
	Now, I just know that I don't have to tell you what's happening to telecommunications.
	It's going nuts.
	It's not just a technical revolution, but it's an explosion of opportunity, business opportunity.
	Microtech is one of the premier companies that's had the strength and foresight to grab a big piece of the hot new SMR market specialized mobile radio.
	Remember SMR because you're going to be hearing a lot about it.
	When it comes to microtech the future is now.
	They've already completed SMR stations in major markets like New York, LA, Dallas, Boston.
	They've got more to build while license opportunities last and that is where you may come in if you qualify as an investor and you're willing to make one Free phone call.
	You can discover how a minimum $8,700 put now in the explosive telecommunications industry could return to you $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 or more plus a yearly income for the rest of your life.
	And yes, it can be part of your IRA or retirement plan.
	So call them.
	Their number is 1-800-444-1049.
	You'll get free information.
	You'll get free information. That's 1-800-444-1049.
	049.
	I'd be willing to bet that you assume, if you eat good food, that you're getting nutrition, and you'll be healthy, right?
	Well, under most circumstances, yes, that would be true, but you must understand that lining the wall of your digestive tract is a bacteria.
	Not a bad bacteria, but a good bacteria.
	One you need, because it is the engine that drives the nutrition into your body and the wastes out.
	Now, what can happen to that bacteria?
	Lots of bad things.
	Antibiotics kill it.
	Bad diet, alcohol, drugs, stress, even basic aging reduce that bacteria.
	And as that occurs, the opposite process ensues.
	You get poisons, rashes, get sick, and unfortunately a lot of the nutrition is simply now waste.
	You don't want that to happen.
	Here's a natural way to replace your body's natural process.
	Megadophilus, Bifidofactor, and Digestilac.
	You'll never remember all those names.
	They happen to be Natren's Healthy Trinity.
	So, get back in step naturally, and get Natren's Healthy Trinity.
	Call 1-800-992-3323.
	Call 1-800-992-3323.
	That's 1-800-992-3323.
	Again, 1-800-992-3323.
	One other little item, $100 bills, but we've got new ones.
	And all the people that have called me say they are very ugly.
	Very ugly.
	Why didn't they do more testing on what the American people would like and not like?
	They just slammed it together, I guess.
	Everybody I've talked to doesn't like the new hundreds.
	Anyway, that is the least of the reason to be talking about this.
	But they are ugly.
	There is more new ugly money to come.
	Other denominations, new denominations, will be on the way.
	They say that the bills in Russia and elsewhere in the world, $100 U.S.
	bills, are different internationally.
	That opens the way toward a domestic eventual devaluation, which is no doubt inevitable, and I have yet to talk to anybody who's looked into this who would challenge that view.
	It's just inevitable.
	Do the numbers.
	North American Trading would be happy to tell you what this will mean to you.
	What the rest of the story on the new currency is, call them.
	The call is free and the information is free.
	And if you don't take it, then you've just got your head in the economic sand.
	Somebody's going to come along and kick you in the economic rear.
	And you won't even be seeing it coming.
	Remember, the number is 1-800-877-9799.
	The information is free of charge.
	1-800-877-9799.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hi, Art.
	This is Mike from Longmont, Colorado.
	Yes, sir.
	Hi, I'd like to talk to you about the bookings report.
	Okay.
	I have a problem with your view in that We wouldn't be able to handle it, or at least the majority of people in the United States wouldn't be able to handle it.
	Well, I didn't say that they couldn't.
	I said some people clearly would not be able to handle it.
	Do you challenge that?
	Well, I believe that they wouldn't, but I have a bigger problem with the fact that we're dealing with a deception as it is, and I see that as a larger problem.
	If we start getting some truth about what's out there and about how If everything works, it might end up being more beneficial than non-beneficial.
	Do you understand what I'm saying?
	Yes.
	There's a lot of people who feel that way.
	But the question is not about them.
	The question is about the, admittedly, the minority, but still a large number of people, numerically, who would go batzoid.
	I think that's definitely possible.
	I think there'd be a lot of ways for people to... Okay, so that is definitely the worry.
	Now, we've got to break it off there.
	Heading toward the top of the hour, Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Next, maybe.
	Call Art Bell.
	Good morning, everybody.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is indeed. Good morning everybody. Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut with us in a moment.
	The new Tropic 900 NDL telephone is on sale.
	You have never seen such a sale before.
	It is $159.95.
	Now that's $20 off to begin with, which is crazy.
	But the Sea Crane Company is now throwing in an extra battery and charger along with the deal.
	It's even crazier.
	What a deal!
	This telephone, because it is all digital, is private.
	Nobody sits out there on another telephone, baby monitor, or scanner, or anything else, listening to you.
	It's private.
	I get about a mile out of mine, but of course I'm in the desert without a lot of intervening geography.
	You might get that, or less, or more.
	I don't know.
	So you get great distance.
	Best of all, though, it is clear, just like a phone you would plug into the wall.
	So you get all those advantages, and I've never seen a sale like this.
	$159.95 with the extra battery and charger.
	That's the deal.
	Call them in the morning at 9 o'clock, 9 a.m.
	Saturday morning or 730 Monday morning.
	It's a one eight.
	1-800-522-8863.
	That's 1-800-522-8863.
	One correction to the Associated Press article I had.
	The baby that is now in critical condition was beaten by the six-year-old and was not at home alone.
	As a matter of fact, there was a babysitter there, according to late news.
	Not the best supervision, but not left alone.
	All right, now we go to Florida, and that's where Dr. Edgar Mitchell is.
	Dr. Mitchell, welcome to the program.
	Well, good morning, Art.
	Thank you.
	It is really an honor to have you on the show.
	Well, thank you.
	Pleased to be here.
	Good.
	I've got a million questions, which probably are dumb.
	Everybody asks astronauts these questions, but I've got to do it because I've never heard the answers.
	Well, give me the first 100,000 or so.
	Yeah, all right.
	How did you get picked to be in the Apollo program?
	I guess that's a good place to begin.
	Well, I kind of made it my business from 1957 on, after Sputnik went out.
	I recognized that humans were probably right behind robot spacecraft, and I wanted to go along, so I started working on it on my credentials in 1957, even before there were manned flight, much more than a dream.
	It took me nine years adding to my test pilot credentials, getting a PhD from MIT, and being involved in space development with the military.
	So it's sort of like you had a list, or you knew what the right stuff was going to be, or was going to require, and you began fulfilling it.
	That's kind of right.
	I didn't quite exactly know about it.
	I just kept adding credentials and qualifications and hoping that sooner or later they couldn't ignore me any longer, which turned out to be true.
	By 1996.
	Alright, well most people today, because all of this occurred so long ago, have forgotten a lot about it.
	What reminded them about it all was Apollo 13.
	That's true.
	Of course.
	And would you say, to the best of your knowledge, that Apollo 13, minus a little bit of dramatic license, was fairly correct?
	Oh yes, there was very little dramatic license in the movie Apollo 13.
	They did a marvelous job of keeping it right on track, and very true to actually what happened.
	All right.
	Bearing that in mind, and with a lot of people who've seen 13, the movie, going on 14 must have been a bit of a, even though I'm sure by then you were all locked into it and ready, still, in the back of your mind, with Apollo 13 just having occurred, You must have worried that a similar thing could have occurred.
	On the contrary.
	Took the position, A, we've really gone over the spacecraft with a fine-tooth comb.
	The likelihood of something, of lightning striking twice in the same place is pretty small.
	At least it's nice consolation whether it's true or not.
	Mathematically true is another matter, but it's nice consolation.
	The main problem was don't screw up.
	We really We were under the gun to fly a good mission, and so to ourselves, don't mess up, do it right.
	I guess my simple little question was, and it is a simple question, when you got to the moon, when you got on the moon, was it fun?
	Fun?
	Oh, sure!
	Was there time in between everything you had to do to just, you know, sort of No, there wasn't time.
	Any moment that you took to do that was very brief, stolen.
	The clock did not permit that time.
	But, of course, Alan Shepard took the time to hit a golf ball.
	Yes, he did.
	I took the time to throw a javelin further than his golf ball.
	How far did your javelin go?
	Well, both of them went up there.
	A few yards.
	If we hadn't been such cumbersome, tight pressure suits, we could have done a pretty respectable job of throwing things halfway around the moon.
	But those pressure suits were tight and stiff and difficult to work with.
	So they went out there a while.
	Was there any chance that, should you fall in one of those, you would catch it on a rock or jag it and tear it?
	There's a possibility.
	We were careful with regard to that and watched each other pretty cautiously, kept an eye on each other, worked the buddy
	system and tried to make sure we didn't fall on anything really sharp.
	But it was a remote probability, but it was still there.
	If something like that had occurred, would it be automatically fatal or would there have
	been time to do a quick patch job, assuming it wasn't a giant tear, and you'd live through?
	We had ways to overcome small fissures or small holes in the suit, leaks in the suit,
	for short periods of time.
	We had a buddy system.
	We had an emergency oxygen supply that could hold up for very small leaks.
	And that's about all that we really expected to encounter.
	Whereas a massive tear, it would be too difficult to manage.
	Did you ever have any concern or did you give any thought to what would have occurred if the LM had not been able to lift off from the moon?
	And I wonder how they could have handled that from a PR point of view at Houston.
	We had about five ways to back up the engine ignition and the start sequence.
	Fortunately, we didn't have to use any of them, but we had several different backups.
	The last of which was to run a jumper cable from the descent stage through the hatch into the ascent stage circuit breaker panel.
	We all wondered what would happen when that cable went sneaking out through the front door and we sent it off, but we never had to use that one.
	So there wasn't much thought to anything tragic?
	Well, there was a lot of prior thought.
	Backup, creating backups for things that could go wrong.
	But once you've done that, you've done all you can do.
	We went to the moon, and went to the moon, and went to the moon, and now we haven't gone to the moon.
	And it's been 30 years, and a lot of people, and I'm one of them, wonder about that.
	Why haven't we been back?
	Why haven't men been back?
	The public hasn't supported it financially.
	That's the reason we cut off the last three flights, is the public started saying, ho-hum, So what have you done for us today?
	Why go back to the moon?
	Scientifically, there is plenty of reason to go back, and eventually we will.
	But we have to garner the public and political will and finances to do it.
	It will happen sooner or later.
	The Saturn V, that's what you wrote on top of, isn't it?
	That was quite an incredible booster.
	How much thrust did that develop?
	A little over 7 million pounds, about 7.3 million pounds.
	It's hard to imagine what it...
	It's like sitting on top of a giant firecracker, isn't it?
	I compare it to a vertical subway ride.
	Shaking, rattling, and rolling as the kibbles move the vector around.
	With acceleration, you're getting pushed back in the seat ever more firmly.
	Until you reach first stage cut-off, a minute or so, about a minute and twenty seconds is fine.
	How many G's at that point?
	Not too many, a little over four.
	The liftoff is relatively light.
	It's the emergency re-entry that pushes you up to high G-loads, potentially up to sixteen, sixteen and a half G. We practice that, and it's not a comfortable feeling to practice emergency aborts.
	What is human endurance for G's, roughly?
	It depends on how you're taking it.
	Transversity is through the body like we were taking it.
	You're going to start to black out above 16 if you sustain it too long.
	But you can take jerk or short impulses higher than that.
	You may tear a few blood vessels, but you'll survive it.
	I don't really know what the absolute limit is.
	They tested that out in the white sands.
	In fact, Colonel Harold Stapp tested it out in the white sands back in the 60s with rocket sleds that they brought to the Screeching Halls up to 20 or 30 G's as I recall.
	Wow.
	And yeah, they sustained a bit of damage sometimes doing that.
	Was there any surprise for you on the moon?
	Was there anything you found on the moon that you didn't expect to find?
	Well, not along the lines you're talking about.
	The only big surprise was it was much more difficult to navigate than we thought, because it looks like a fairly smooth surface where we landed, relatively smooth.
	But it turns out the undulations of the crater impacts are like sand dunes, and they're much higher than you think they are.
	So, whereas we felt we could navigate across the surface very, very precisely within It turns out you couldn't do that because you'd lose sight
	of your landmarks.
	Just like walking through the desert with sand dunes.
	You come up with one sand dune and lo and behold, there's another one and you can't
	quite see which one is the next one.
	Would that have blocked your ... In other words, would that kind of geography, which
	is hillier than you thought, would that have blocked your view or did you have a great
	view to the moon's horizon?
	Well, we had great views.
	What I'm talking about is micro-navigation here.
	Oh, I see.
	Down to within feet or so.
	We knew where we were within 10, 15 yards, but not within 10 or 15 feet sometimes, like the geologist wanted us to have.
	A lot of people thought the early Apollo missions might You know, when the LEM came down, Michael, sinking into the moon dust, and there was going to be a great deal of moon dust there.
	Yep.
	A lot of people thought that.
	Well, there was a great deal of moon dust.
	It just turned out it compacted very nicely, and the big pads we had on the bottom of the struts cushioned it very nicely, and we didn't sink in.
	All right.
	Let me try this one on you.
	It's a fact.
	I have several.
	Regarding your appearance on Dateline, NBC's Dateline, A few minutes into the interview, if you had missed it, you would have missed the commentator's remark that Dr. Mitchell returned from the moon with a couple of secrets.
	So, if he's unable or unwilling to corroborate Richard Hoagland's work, and we'll get to that later, I'd like to know if it's true that there are some secrets.
	Is there anything, any secret that you learned that you still are unable to discuss?
	Absolutely not.
	No, the secret she was referring to was a little teaser for the fact that I did that ESP experiment, telepathy experiment.
	But I have no classified information or information I can't talk about.
	I've talked about everything I know to talk about regard to flight.
	Classified information that you couldn't talk about, then you obviously couldn't talk about it, right?
	No, but yes, that is true, except for the fact I deny that that's the case.
	We were a totally open program.
	We had nothing to hide.
	We were to tell the world what we found, and as far as whatever we saw, we can talk about it.
	All right, I don't shy away from things.
	Here's another fax.
	It says, don't ask this directly.
	You may not be able to broach the subject without causing some tension between you and your guest.
	Edgar Mitchell's company, this fax says, has been and is still funded by the CIA.
	Absolutely untrue.
	Absolutely untrue.
	If you recall, back in the early 70s, I did work at Stanford Research Institute.
	I was invited to brief the CIA on our results, which I did.
	George Bush was head of the CIA at that time.
	Subsequently, a great deal of work was done by the CIA on psychic work, very successfully, because the Soviets were doing it at that time as well in the Brazina area.
	Very successfully.
	And as a matter of fact, much of that work has just been declassified and released to the public within the last few months.
	That's true.
	Harold Puthoff and Russell Targ both have written several papers just this year, after 27 years of secrecy, about all of that work.
	And it was very successful work and very exciting.
	But as far as funding my company and any of my efforts No, I've never had one penny of CIA funding.
	Okay.
	You did conduct an ESP experiment.
	It is now known.
	What were the results of that experiment?
	What did you do?
	Well, the signatures were tests that had been done in the laboratory by J.B.
	Ryan and other people for 30 years or more.
	I just simply conducted it in that environment.
	And I can only quote the results statistically because that's the way it was set up.
	The probability that chance could have produced our results was 1 in 3,000.
	1 in 3,000?
	So it was statistically a significant test.
	So you had arranged, I guess, with somebody on Earth to be receiving.
	Four people.
	Four people, and you were going to send a message.
	What, mid-flight?
	No, I did it four different times.
	Planned to do it more than that.
	I had time to do it four different times during my rest period.
	It took about seven minutes each time to organize the standard Zinner symbols in accordance
	with random numbers selected from a random number table and copied onto my knee pad.
	I organized the symbols according to random orientation of the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and
	then simply thought about each symbol in turn for 15 seconds.
	That chance could have produced that result.
	That's incredible.
	Yeah, it was quite in keeping with what scientists had found in the laboratory for 30 years or more.
	Did NASA know you were going to do that?
	No, they did not.
	Had they known, would they have been happy?
	Not particularly.
	How did you decide to concoct that experiment?
	Well, as I tell in my book that's coming out, I had been in discussion with some medical people, as a matter of fact, who were very good scientists, and who were frustrated with the establishment's lack of interest in these human capabilities.
	And it seemed like two clinics.
	It was too good an opportunity to pass up because no one had ever been able to conduct an experiment over those distances.
	Now, it's a simple experiment.
	It didn't show a lot because one set of experiments is never enough, but it was indicative.
	The only problem was that it got broken to the press before we were ready to and before we had a chance to analyze the results and do it in a thoroughly scientific way.
	Care to say how it got out?
	One of our persons involved in it, who happened to have been a professional psychic, couldn't contain himself, got too excited and leaked it to the press.
	I see.
	Alright, let me jump to something else here.
	You, on Dateline, virtually suggested that you think, your opinion, So it's safe to say that, is that there was really perhaps a crash in 1947 in Roswell, and that it has been covered up.
	Is that roughly accurate?
	Yeah, that's pretty accurate.
	Let me give a little background.
	I lived in Roswell at the time, but I was too young, of course, to know much about that incident, although it was not too far from my current ranch.
	Interestingly enough, and also as I point out in my book, Robert Goddard lived right down the road from where I grew up in Roswell.
	I walked past his house on the way to school every day.
	So the Roswell area is of interest to me.
	I remember that incident vaguely.
	I remember the headlines.
	I didn't think much about it at the time when it was said, well, just a weather bullet.
	But the subsequent events and the people.
	Who have come forth in later years saying that they were told to keep quiet, but they don't want to keep quiet anymore.
	And the many, many investigations of it suggest that there's really more to it than has been told.
	I think there's in the order of about 130 witnesses.
	Yeah, there's a lot of people.
	A lot of people, yes.
	And many of them now in the later stage of their lives saying, we really don't want to go to our grave with this misinformation out there.
	Um, there are a lot of people who would say the same thing about you.
	In other words, that you wouldn't want to go to your grave with secrets about the moon.
	Now, I'm not going to beat this to death, but I'm going to ask you, Richard Hoagland claims and there are great glass structures
	uh... on the moon and he presents photographs including one i might add of you on the moon in
	which he claims uh... reflections in your visor are showing things that
	were in front of you that uh... you have not admitted were there
	well i will uh... refer
	the kindest thing that can be said is what the uh... washington post said
	uh... green cheese and bologna It simply is not true.
	Simply not true?
	It's pseudoscience.
	It's just nonsense.
	Alan Bean, I think, gave a quick comment, a proper comment.
	I happen to be out of pocket at the time this press conference took place a month ago.
	But Alan Bean's comment is absolutely correct.
	Had we discovered such a thing, we would have been totally delighted to reveal it to the public.
	Tongue-in-cheek said, I would love to have gone to collect the Nobel Prize for having such a discovery.
	No, there simply was nothing like that.
	All right.
	Doctors, stay right there.
	Take a break.
	It'll be about four or five minutes.
	We'll be back with more.
	Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell is our guest, and he's written a book.
	Get a pencil, get a paper, because he's going to offer you an opportunity to get an autographed copy Of his book.
	Dedicated autographed copy.
	You'll never get that chance again.
	We'll be right back.
	Welcome to the World of Music.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1295. That's 702-727-1295. First time callers can rechart Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1292.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Back to Apollo 14 astronaut, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, in a moment.
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	All right, back now to Florida, and my guest, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut.
	Doctor, this question does not relate to you because of the nature of your crew on Apollo 14, so don't take it that way, but one day if America Is to ever, or any nation on this globe, I guess, is ever to launch a spacecraft to elsewhere, truly to elsewhere, beyond our system, in what will be a very long spaceflight.
	There may have to be generations, literally, of people to accomplish that fact, unless we can start moving a lot faster than light.
	Toward that end, I would think that NASA would have, but wouldn't talk about, a great interest in whether it would be possible to procreate in space, or the nature of procreation, and that leads to whether there's ever been sex in space, and we talked about that one night, and you seem like the person to ask.
	Do you think there has been?
	I can't answer that from definitive knowledge, but sooner or later there's going to be.
	They very well have been, but I don't know of any official experiment for that.
	There may be an extension of what aviators always talk about, the mile-high cloud.
	You're just getting up there 100 miles high.
	I think it would be irresistible, wouldn't you?
	Yeah.
	And there must be a file in the back of somebody's file drawer about that.
	I mean, it is, at the same time, an interesting question, a fun question, and a question that is very serious, or could potentially be very serious.
	Well, we certainly need to consider it because, as you point out, long-distance spaceflight
	can take years and years, even though, by the way, as a matter of interest, there's
	a lot of work going on at the moment to modify, learn to modify the basic characteristics
	of local space in order to change the speed of light so locally one could exceed the speed
	of light.
	Wait a minute.
	Not really exceed the speed of light, but it would appear that one is exceeding the
	speed of light.
	Is this a theory that embraces virtually folding, sort of folding space so that you, in effect,
	jump from point to point?
	No, that is the wormholes or tunneling approach.
	No, this goes right to the very definition of what is the speed of light, and it's the electrical and the magnetic permeability, it's associated with the electric and magnetic permeability of the medium and if you can modify that then you can
	modify the apparent speed of light but it's very far out, just a few papers have been written
	on it and it's being looked at at this point but it holds some promise from a scientific
	point of view, very, very hard nosed approach to it.
	One of the things that Richard Hoagland may not be so far out on, and that you may wish to comment on, is he talks about a new type of physics that seems to sound a lot like what Tesla worked on, that seems to relate to something you've talked about, the zero-point energy.
	Yeah.
	Well, let's not give Hoagland credit for that.
	Sure, it's much closer to Tesla's work, but a number of physicists tend to have a put-on Very close to Tom Beard and others have been working with zero point field concepts.
	And I was just discussing, what I was just discussing comes out of zero point field work.
	That the zero point field is the underlying quantum field of quantum fluctuations that supports all matter.
	And in space you call it the, why am I blocking?
	It's space energy.
	It's energy that's all around us.
	All around us, everywhere.
	And it is the fundamental fluctuation that's left over.
	If you were to reduce space to, well, space is zero degrees Celsius, it's the quantum fluctuations that remain at zero degrees Celsius.
	Or you could also say it's a source of the Big Bang.
	It was there, and the Big Bang arose out of a zero point.
	Does it seem likely to you, Doctor, that A, that the Big Bang is the correct theory?
	Well, all the evidence gets stronger and stronger and stronger the more you look at it, that there's something like the Big Bang.
	The problem is not with the Big Bang itself.
	It's with what happens in the first few nanoseconds of the event and defining precisely what happens at each instance.
	And they're narrowing in on that, but something close to the way that the current standard description of the Big Bang did take place.
	If it's the Big Bang, or some modification of the Big Bang, then doesn't it follow that if Roswell really occurred, if there really was a crash at Roswell, or there have been others, or there are others to visit, that any materials gathered would likely Frankly, be very much like the materials we have here on Earth.
	In other words, all materials sourced from a common... In my own book, I discuss this at considerable length.
	What really comes out of it is that the Big Bang tells us that all matter is interconnected in some way.
	And this comes out of an experiment only 12 years ago called the Aspect Experiment, or
	more formally Bell's Theorem, which has been tested and proven to be correct that matter
	once in connection or correlated with each other remains correlated in some sense.
	And I trace this up to being responsible for what we experience as our inner experience.
	Nonlocality is the correct term, and we experience our ESP, our intuition, our creativity as
	a result of that very fundamental physical relationship that exists in nature.
	And it's always existed in nature.
	And this was what got all of this going, as far as I'm concerned.
	It's the way we have them.
	Going to space, going to the moon, was it at some level a very spiritual experience?
	And this was what got all of this going as far as I'm concerned.
	It was the perception and looking at the cosmos, seeing the stars, seeing the galaxies, seeing
	the galactic clusters, the profusion of billions and billions and billions of stellar objects
	with this tiny little earth in the midst of it, and perceiving that the molecules of my
	body, of that spacecraft we were in, of each other, of everything around us, were all manufactured
	in those ancient stars.
	and And that our story about ourselves from science was incomplete.
	And our cosmology about how we came to be from our cultural traditions and our religions was archaic.
	That we needed a new story.
	And that new story was, what is it that makes us conscious?
	Why is it that we're aware beings like we are?
	And the answer to that question is centered around what I have been doing for the last 25 years, trying to find what's going on here.
	Our answers are not complete, but I think after 25 years of working at it, we're getting pretty close to a good answer.
	And it does involve a zero-point field.
	It does involve quantum physics.
	It does involve spiritual experience, mystical experience, parapsychological functioning.
	All of those things have to be satisfactorily answered If we're to know what it is we are.
	Do you think it would be more devastating to learn there are others of greater technical capability or more devastating to learn there are not?
	Oh, more devastating to know there are not.
	I think it's absolutely wonderful to know, when you first start with the idea, this universe is full of life.
	It's full of intelligent life.
	The fact that some of it might be a little bit more advanced or happened a little earlier than our civilization seems natural.
	If life is throughout the universe, which is quite a different concept than we held 25 or 30 years ago, but now I think that is the case.
	And if the universe is approximately 15 billion years old or so, give or take a few, It would not be strange that maybe a civilization could be a few million or even a billion or so years older than we are.
	Do you think we're ready to know that now?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Well, surely many are, and I would be certain you would be, and I would be, but there was the Brookings Report that suggested a great many people in our society would not be ready.
	I think that's probably true, but not nearly like it was 25 years ago.
	A recent study done by my own institute It demonstrates that it has broken the demographics down
	into three different groups called the traditionalist, the moderns and the postmoderns.
	The postmoderns, another name for them is called cultural creatives, which is the group
	like you and I are that are looking for new answers, looking for where the future is,
	not afraid of these ideas.
	That group has changed from 2% to 24% in the last 20 years and is in equal in size in the
	We're talking about U.S.
	demographics.
	Equal in size to the traditionalists and the moderns.
	The moderns would be your corporate people, your materialist scientists, the yuppie group, and so forth.
	And the cultural creatives would be the greens, the environmentally sensitive people looking to the future.
	All those groups are now roughly the same size.
	With the cultural critiques increasing and the others decreasing.
	All right, look, you've got a book, and I want to plug it for you.
	It's called The Way of the Explorer.
	Can you give us, I'll tell everybody how to get the book and stuff in a moment, but can you give us an idea of what The Way of the Explorer tells us?
	Sure.
	I talk a bit about the space experience, of course, how I got into all of that, but most of the book and the story of Looking at the universe and being awestruck by what I was experiencing.
	But most of it is the research of the last 25 years, going into these various topics, mystical experience, psychological experience, studying consciousness, how does it relate to our psychology, to our religion, to our mystical experience, to our science, and giving my thoughts on it and my work over the last 20 some years.
	And coming to a new model called the dyadic model of how it relates.
	What does all this mean to us?
	And where does it seem to be taking us in the future?
	And I touch upon the UFO experience a bit.
	The notion that intelligent life is probably throughout the universe.
	And the real question is have we found each other yet?
	All of these items are touched upon, some of them in significant detail.
	And it's kind of the result of my last 27 years of research.
	It's hung upon an autobiographical story, and the people who have read it say, hey, that's a pretty interesting tale you've got there.
	If another group of people from elsewhere had been watching us, or if we had been observed, then surely those moments when we left our planet in a significant way beyond low Earth orbit, or even geosynchronous orbiting satellites, Those moments would have been, I would think, of intense interest to somebody else.
	And so obviously, the question, did you, en route to the moon or back, see anything at all that was anomalous?
	No.
	I wish we had.
	I mean, these stories and rumors have been around for years, but I have had no experience, none on our flight, and to my knowledge, no unexplained experience on any of the flights in this regard.
	And yes, it In an evolutionary sense, an extraterrestrial intelligence would be very curious about the evolutionary progress that a civilization they discovered had made.
	So, if we were watching somebody's first steps into space, we'd be intensely curious about it.
	All right.
	This is something that had to have been covered by NASA, though you say it didn't happen.
	Had there been contact?
	Had you seen another craft?
	Met something on the moon?
	Seen something on the moon?
	What was the protocol?
	Was there a protocol?
	There was none.
	In other words, you guys would just get on the mic and say, Hey, Houston, guess what?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Because the official position at that point in history, it cannot happen.
	This doesn't exist.
	So it wasn't even discussed.
	Had it happened, it would have been exactly that.
	Hey, guys, Houston, guess what happened?
	Really?
	Yeah.
	I would have thought there would have been at least some private secret code word or contact or something before you just blurted out, you know, the whole thing out publicly.
	No, huh?
	Nope.
	It was considered, as far as I'm concerned, such a remote event that it wasn't even discussed.
	Now, did any of us individually think about it?
	Sure.
	And say, well, that would have been curious.
	All right, you've got a very, very unusual offer for everybody, and you're going to be inundated.
	Your book, The Way of the Explorer, you're willing to actually autograph, autograph versions for people and even dedicate them, is that correct?
	Sure, sure.
	Really?
	Give me their name, I'll dedicate it to the person.
	Send the money in.
	All right, it's $35, right?
	Right.
	A special, dedicated autograph version.
	And they would send that $35, I suppose, check money order, that sort of thing?
	Yeah, check money order, cash, whatever.
	Uh-huh.
	To P.O.
	Box 6728-6728, Lake Worth.
	Two words, Lake Worth, Florida.
	6728, 6728 Lake Worth, two words, Lake Worth, Florida, zip code 33461.
	I'll do that again.
	The book, the title of the book, The Way of the Explorer, Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida, 33461.
	And you know not what you do.
	Oh, you know not what you do.
	I'm telling you, I wrote a book.
	I signed autographed versions.
	You're going to be at this for a long, long time.
	Thank you for the warning, Eric.
	You remember 2001?
	The obelisk, all the rest of it.
	As you reflect, Doctor, on what it all means, or how we came to be, and that's what we're all asking, do you consider that a possibility that life here on Earth was in effect jump-started one way or the other, obelisk or otherwise, by folks from elsewhere?
	I doubt if it really started that way.
	But there's some interesting speculation by, well, I think it just blocked his name.
	He wrote the Twelfth Planet.
	Zachariah Sitchin, I believe.
	Zachariah Sitchin.
	Thank you.
	That says, well, maybe they intervened along the way, and that the historical biblical story out of Samaria could very well have been that sort of influence.
	I would love to have Sitchin's work either confirmed or denied by additional scholarship because it's intriguing and he makes a very strong case and it's interesting stuff and it's quite possible.
	But I think we probably originated much like life originated elsewhere and the model for that is what I give in my new book as to how that could possibly happen.
	By the way, we're also considering doing quite a bit of film work with this.
	I'm associated with North Tower Films out in California.
	Really?
	Trying to get some of these ideas down on film because it's a modern way to do it and into computers and multimedia approaches.
	Our listeners are interested in that and in helping get them involved.
	We could get them involved with that one, too.
	And they would contact you at the same address?
	Well, no.
	I've got a number for that.
	You can contact me, but the best thing is to go directly to North Tower Film, which
	is 415-868-1452.
	1452.
	Looking for funding.
	We have a very fine producer.
	Did you see the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
	Oh, yes.
	It's Robert Watts as a producer.
	Oh, okay.
	He's one of the producers.
	He does a marvelous job.
	He also did the Indiana Jones series and Star Wars trilogy.
	He was involved in all of that.
	So he's a marvelous producer that helps do some of our work.
	And we're trying to do some of this work around what's coming out of this new approach to
	science and to mystical approaches.
	Well, there is certainly a lot suddenly happening.
	Your statements, those that are going to be, interestingly made May 7th, which is the date your book is coming out, I know, by Gordon Cooper on Paranormal Borderline, apparently some incredible statements coming.
	I don't have a full text, but the people that do have told me they're amazing statements, and a lot of people would say the things you've said, that Gordon Cooper will say, and others, Are all leading up to something, that it's a slow sort of preparation, that's the way people feel, and that motion pictures are adding to that, you know, Independence Day coming up, the big movie, the whole thing, that all of this is leading to a sort of crescendo of information when there'll be some big revelation.
	Do you think that may be?
	Well, we're in an evolutionary universe.
	This is a major point I'm making.
	We're evolving.
	We're continuously changing.
	We're continuously innovating.
	And what I believe is happening is that on our Earth, evolution is coming under our conscious control.
	And as a result, it's a new order of things.
	It's a new paradigm for the way we operate.
	In other words, the future of Earth is in our hands.
	All right, Doctor.
	Hold it right there.
	That's a good place to hold it.
	We'll be back following the news at the top of the hour.
	My guest, This is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Yes, we will get phone lines open.
	and stay right there.
	Thank you.
	Call Art-Val toll free.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is.
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	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033. This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is, I love doing that. Confusing my board ops. It's double bumping. This is CUSCO. C-U-S-C-O.
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	Now, Dr. Edgar Mitchell in Florida.
	Back once again, Doctor.
	Gee, it's great having you here.
	It's nice to talk with you.
	I've never... I've always wanted to talk to somebody who went to the moon and walked on the moon.
	It's exciting to me.
	I wish... I guess I will never... That's one thing I will never get to do.
	Well, not necessarily.
	Well, that goes to the nature of my question, and that is, now we're talking about the space station with the Russians, and I guess the space program has not gone as aggressively as people like yourself, myself, might have wished it to.
	Where should the space program be going?
	If you had your druthers and money wasn't a problem, what would we be doing?
	Well, I think we're probably doing a lot of the right things right now.
	But in due course, we will do all of these things.
	We will go back to the moon.
	We will go to Mars.
	We will go out to the solar system.
	We will even go beyond the solar system, in due course, sometime in the next century or so, or beyond.
	But right now, I think we need to get our act together here on Earth.
	And the space technology is absolutely marvelous for surveying the Earth, seeing how to get ourselves better organized here, get things pulled together.
	It's quite apparent when you look at Earth from space that this thin, thin, thin little biosphere that we have is rather in jeopardy.
	You know, we spotted the burning forest, the pollution from space.
	It's very easy to see.
	And it's causing people to be very concerned.
	So getting ourselves organized, recognizing who and what we are, what is our place in the cosmos, laying our plans for the future.
	It's an appropriate thing to do now.
	We've only been in space about 30 some years, and that's just nothing.
	And we're just really starting to understand what this environment's all about.
	Does that overview, seeing the Earth that way, cause you to become an environmentalist?
	It certainly causes you to become far, to ask questions in a different way.
	And most of the people who have been in space, I would say, are now If not, ardent environmentalist is certainly very sensitive to environmental issues.
	It's very obvious from the space overview.
	A lot of people have asked this, and I've always wanted to.
	A lot of people, Doctor, who went to space, went to the moon, or even in the early Mercury program, have had terribly troubling lives.
	Broken marriages, drug or alcohol problems, just generally have had trouble.
	But I would guess, and this is just my guess, that that's true of a lot of test pilots too, people who live on the edge one way or the other.
	Is that the answer to you?
	That's largely true.
	I think the NASA program itself in the early days, we had very high family problems just because of the intensity, the dedication.
	This idea of going to the moon back in the 60s was so exciting and people were so dedicated That the men and women, mostly men in those days, focused on their jobs and families came second.
	That's just not the way you keep a family together.
	As a result, we had our casualties.
	I think the timbre of the times, as we see in American society in general these times, that we're undergoing a transition.
	It has been very difficult on the families themselves.
	But it's just a part of the times, I believe, and the intensity of this very marvelous program we're a part of.
	I want to dispel another rumor, or it's actually more than that.
	Flying around on the internet, this great new information resource we have, there are all these texts.
	There are a lot of texts of supposed astronaut communications intercepted by amateur radio operators during blackout times about things they saw, most amazing things.
	All baloney?
	I can't, without analyzing them individually, I can't say they're all baloney, but by and large I would say, in a general statement, yeah, they're all baloney.
	You and Gordon Cooper and others are probably considered, within the astronaut corps, to be kind of out on the edge yourself, are you not?
	In some ways, yeah.
	Do you expect others to come forward and say the kind of things that you've been saying?
	Oh, they have been.
	Some of them have.
	Perhaps a little more guardedly.
	I've kind of made it my business for the last quite a few years to look very carefully, very critically at many of these frontier concepts to see what validity they had.
	And we're finding many of them have a certain amount of validity.
	And as they have validity, You start to find ways to bring them into the body of our knowledge.
	And when you're a pioneer in that way, as I try to be, yes, you invite criticism.
	You invite the wise nods and the shaking of heads and so forth.
	Yes.
	But that just goes with the territory of being an explorer.
	It does.
	Neil Armstrong is a good example.
	I can't give you the exact quote, but he went to the White House.
	I'm sure you've heard it.
	And said that there are places to go and things to see that will boggle your mind or something very close to that.
	Yeah, and that's quite true.
	Well, that implies a knowledge, though, that he has that he can't quite fully or is not willing to quite fully articulate.
	Sort of a tease.
	It's probably more not quite able to articulate.
	I have exactly that same problem.
	It's trying to explain what is the inevitable.
	And that has always been the problem between science and our mystical experience.
	Science wants things precise, well defined, and with exquisite precision.
	But most of our human experience doesn't have that precision.
	It's what we feel.
	A reaction to an environment, and there aren't words to properly describe it.
	If it were, then it wouldn't be such a mystical experience.
	Alright, well you have had the ultimate physical experience, the science experience of going to the moon.
	Do you think the ultimate answers that man seeks are going to be found in the hard sciences, or do you think that we will have to turn inward to find those answers?
	Science has to modify itself, and it's all centered around One concept, it's the first person experience.
	Each one of us lives in our skin.
	Each one of us has an inner experience.
	That's the only experience we have.
	Science is concerned with describing that from the third person or objective point of view.
	Unfortunately, you cannot describe a whole first person point of view from the third person point of view.
	That is where science breaks down.
	And the religious or cultural or subjective experience is all that each of us really has.
	That is the basis of our existence.
	And bringing science into understanding how to better deal with the personal subjective inner experience is what my studies have all been about.
	And that is really where the dividing line is here.
	All right, here's something that I would like to ask you about, and maybe you can answer it in a way I haven't been able to, but those of religious faith, deep religious faith, many of them view discussion of UFOs, discussion of people, or others that may be out there as of the devil.
	How do you react to that?
	Well, I grew up in a fundamentalist tradition.
	I tell the story in my book about my mother, who was healed.
	Amazingly, in one of these powerful things, healing moments are very much the way Jesus is supposed to have healed people.
	Only the interesting part was, this fellow was a Buddhist shaman, and he did a pretty marvelous job of healing my mother.
	And she subsequently started thinking about it.
	I describe this in the book, by the way.
	What did she suffer?
	She had glaucoma.
	Well, just let me finish the story.
	She wore thick, by the time this happened, she wore very thick Coke bottle glasses and
	was legally blind without them.
	And she was healed and conceived.
	An interesting story, she dropped her glasses on the floor, ground them under her shoe and
	said, Son, praise the Lord, I can see.
	Drove home without her glasses 300 miles by herself.
	And if I were to say, the devil did that?
	Well, just let me finish the story.
	She called me a week later and said, Son, was this man a Christian?
	And I said, oh, Jesus, no, Mother, I'm sorry, he wasn't.
	The next day she had to put her glasses back on, had to go get new glasses.
	Her belief system was so strong that since she couldn't accept a Buddhist shaman healing her, she rejected the healing.
	Now, interestingly enough, ten years later when she passed away, she still hadn't had an operation because it was pretty risky back in the day.
	But she never went blind.
	Her eyesight improved over the years, the ten years remaining to her, so that by the time she passed away, her glasses were a far weaker prescription than when this incident occurred.
	Very amazing story.
	That's amazing!
	It got me started on all of it.
	Oh, it did?
	Well, that was in part one of my earliest experiences with consciousness and paranormal
	work, even before I ran into Uri Geller.
	Uri Geller came after that, and I had been studying with this shaman to see how in the
	world can this possibly happen?
	As a scientist, I wanted to understand it.
	Do some of your old colleagues come to you and say, Edgar, what are you doing?
	Yep.
	They do?
	They did, right after the experiment in space, that many of them came in, closed the door,
	looked around nervously and said, tell me about it.
	It's been happening for 27 years.
	And so you just told them about it?
	Right.
	I'll tell them about it, yeah.
	Wow, forward.
	Obviously.
	There was a report last night, Doctor.
	Last night, scientists, it says, are now calculating that asteroid 433, known as Eros, will wander into Earth's orbit.
	Now, that's not a minor little asteroid.
	It is the size of Manhattan.
	Scientists are saying, eventually, a collision with Earth is likely Maybe not for a million years, and that's a long time, but they calculate it will probably occur.
	Now, of course, that's far larger than the one that supposedly took out the dinosaurs.
	50% probability.
	50%?
	Half and a half?
	Well, alright, that's a big probability.
	And it's also not the only asteroid out there.
	Potentially, one day, something's going to come along that will do to us what was done to the dinosaurs.
	Quite possibly.
	That's been a recent concern of scientists, so it's a good reason to have a space program, isn't it?
	Yep.
	And, you see, this illustrates what I'm talking about in our evolutionary path.
	We are, indeed, these events can come under our conscious control by the time that might happen.
	They say the probability is very, very low in the next 10,000 years, virtually zero.
	And within 10,000 years, we certainly would have the technology to divert an object like that with perhaps nuclear power or some such technology that we could invent by the time that happens.
	So that illustrates the fact we could bring this sort of natural disaster within our ability to perverted or change it.
	We may not be able to get to earthquakes by that time, but again we might.
	But certainly it's feasible that we could divert an asteroid that was going to collide with it.
	Alright, there are many who have, prophets, people who claim to see, you mentioned earthquakes, Gordon Michael Scallion, he's a fellow I work with, brilliant guy, others who see great earth changes coming, great great earthquakes coming, And, indeed, I look at our society right now, we're dealing with a story this morning of a six-year-old who may have or is alleged to have planned the murder of a 30-day-old child, this sort of thing.
	Events, socially, economically, politically, seem to be in rapid deterioration, and events appear to be quickening, geologic events as well.
	Have you looked at that?
	Well, yes, I have, and I describe part of this in the book.
	I don't know that geologic events are accelerating, but certainly, well, in the sense that weather events, if they're influenced by the ozone layer, if they're influenced by the global warming, the greenhouse effect, those can be traced to human activity.
	And if we can trace it to human activity, then yes, it's accelerating, because every measure of human activity has a period of doubling now.
	That is less than a human lifetime.
	It's the first time that's happened in all human history.
	Exactly.
	So it's bringing, what I'm saying, it's bringing all of these events are coming under human control.
	And it's because we're so numerous, our technology is so powerful.
	And it requires us now to rethink this whole issue of who are we?
	How did we get here?
	What's our future?
	Where are we going?
	Why and how?
	Whether you believe in a Creator or you believe that our Earth is reacting to what is being done to it, there are a lot of people who believe, and I may be one of them, that the Earth is, in fact, in some way, maybe perhaps just some natural way, reacting to our presence or the changes we're bringing to Earth.
	Well, I happen to be one of them, too.
	And that's exactly the sort of model I describe in my book.
	This is an interactive self-organizing system that we're talking about, and you push on it here and the effect comes out over there in ways we don't really quite understand yet.
	And that's precisely what we must do is to take responsibility for and understand the consequences of our behaviors, because we're doing some things that are quite reminiscent of the lemmings rushing toward the sea.
	Politically, in a lot of ways, conservative.
	Me too.
	But, NASA has measured, in recent years, the ozone depletion.
	And I find it very difficult to be in denial regarding an 8-10% drop over North America, for example, and the size of the hole.
	Do you generally believe these measurements are accurate?
	Absolutely.
	The question here is not, are the measurements accurate?
	The question is the meaning and interpretation.
	And the evidence continues to mount That these are indeed man-made events and that they're having a deleterious effect upon our whole ecological system.
	It's affecting the food chain.
	The measurements are showing that it's affecting the food chain clear down to the level of the newts, the frogs, the life cycle of fishes and so forth, which eventually works its way up to affect us.
	So we should be watching these indicator species, these... Very, very carefully.
	And recognizing that very likely we're causing the problem.
	As we take down the forest, the rainforest, and as we venture into places we've never been before, we seem to be getting more Ebola's, more mad cow diseases, more viruses that we can't explain and can't deal with.
	More of the same thing, Doctor?
	More of the same thing.
	Nature has a way, and I think my model that I present in this book goes a long way towards helping us understand how this takes place.
	Essentially, nature is an evolving, intelligent organism.
	We don't think of it as an organism due to our scientific history.
	We think of it as inanimate particles.
	But the Lovelock-Gaia hypothesis that everything is interconnected and interrelated More like an organism is probably a more productive way of thinking about nature.
	Closer to the Native American model?
	It's very close to the Native American model and virtually all of the early models.
	And I think we will find it very productive if we continue to develop that model of the interconnectedness of things and how everything relates to each other and the fact That these effects take place is hardly disputable.
	It is the meaning or the interpretation that is in question here.
	All right.
	Fascinating.
	Do you think, given the direction that you see and I see, we're headed toward a good outcome or, without change, a catastrophic outcome?
	Well, without change, it can be very catastrophic.
	But that is precisely the point.
	With change, with human awareness, with human willingness to take responsibility for some of these actions, then the outcome can be very beneficial.
	What the futurist is looking for is sustainable processes and right now we're creating processes that are not sustainable.
	A lot of my writing right now is on sustainability.
	Good.
	Doctor, hold on.
	His writing is entitled The Way of the Explorer, and he's making you an offer this morning that I'm sure you can't refuse.
	I'm going to send off my 35.
	That's the name of Dr. Mitchell's book, The Way of the Explorer, and he's willing to send you an autographed, dedicated copy.
	An autographed copy.
	I would grab this up.
	And the way you get it is send $35 check, money, order, cash, whatever.
	Really, you shouldn't send cash.
	To P.O.
	Box 6728, that's Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, that's two words, Lake Worth, Florida, 33461.
	And I'll do that one more time.
	The Way of the Explorer, $35.
	To Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida, 33...
	4-6-1.
	When we come back, we'll begin to take a few calls.
	And by the way, to my very, very good friend at Gateway, the answer is absolutely yes.
	Private message.
	We'll be right back.
	Thank you very much.
	Thank you very much.
	We'll be right back.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1295.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Here again I am.
	My guest is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	He'll be right back.
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	Neil Armstrong at the White House, July 20th, 1994.
	There are great, quote, there are great ideas undiscovered, breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.
	There are places to go beyond belief.
	That, doctor, was what Neil Armstrong said, and that part of the line To those who can remove one of truth's protective layers seems awfully suggestive.
	Yeah, we do have a way, the way we organize information in our mind brain.
	We have a way of protecting ourselves from shocking ideas.
	And if we want to be ultra, ultra cautious, we just let All right, this is something people have always asked.
	A lot of the film and video that was taken on the moon, a lot of the film and video that's been taken in space for that matter, never seems, according to my faxer from Memphis, to show stars.
	And people have always wondered why.
	It shows the blackness of space, but you never see the stars.
	Any thoughts?
	Sure.
	That's because if you squeeze the shutter down in order so that you get some definition of the thing you're looking at, you have excluded the starlight, which is much fainter.
	But if you were to focus away from the sun and away from reflective light to open the shutter up, you won't see the stars.
	It's absolutely true.
	The same thing is true on the lunar surface.
	If you look through our Lunar Surface Telescope from the Lunar Module, you saw stars very, very nicely.
	But on the lunar surface, if you look out, you should see stars, but its reflective light is bright enough that your eye shutter squeezes down, your eyeball squeezes down, and you don't see them.
	Unless you're very well shielded, and certainly on your camera, if you're going to catch the definition on the surface, you've got to close the shutter and you exclude the stars.
	Well, I can tell you that's true, because not long ago, the shuttle came back returning to Earth, and here in the desert, we got a beautiful look at it very early in the morning, about 4 o'clock in the morning.
	I went out with my camcorder, which is, you know, maybe one or two lux of good camcorder.
	And it began as a great orange glow in the west and grew and then suddenly shot across the horizon with a big kaboom.
	And I thought I got it.
	I didn't get a doggone thing on my camcorder.
	Not enough light there.
	Not enough light there.
	Well, it's amazing how sensitive the eye is.
	You know, we did a wonderful experiment coming back from the moon in which we put eye shades on, darkened the cabin, and kind of then looked Sure enough, we've got meteor trails flashing across the eyeball, which were gamma rays, tiny little energetic solar particles, flashing across the tissue of the eye, just like a meteor flashes across the sky, and the optic nerve is sensitive enough to pick up that
	Were there many worries, Doctor, that something the size of, you know, a pebble or even a grain of sand would impact a spacecraft at high velocity?
	That was all part of the computation of how thick the spacecraft was and so forth.
	And sure, during periods of high solar, sunspot activity, we shouldn't be in space, not because Meteor particles, but because of the radiation energy that could penetrate and damage our bodies and there's always a possibility that a High-velocity particle could fracture a spacecraft cabin sure All right, let's take a few phone calls
	If you wouldn't mind.
	Sure, go ahead.
	Alright, here we go.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Mitchell.
	Hi.
	Hi Art, this is Mary from Teoche, Nevada.
	Yes.
	Dr. Mitchell, someone was listening to you when you came on the air this morning, and he worked with you on the ESP experiment.
	Can you use your ESP now and tell me who it was?
	I have no idea who it was.
	I can tell you if it's true if you tell me who it is, however.
	Olaf Johnson.
	Yes, well, Olaf is indeed the one that knew about it.
	He was involved, that's quite true.
	Let the press know and get it all out in the public.
	That's right.
	There you are, ma'am.
	He was listening to you this morning when you came on, and he was hoping that he could talk to you.
	Well, if he can get through, he can talk to Dr. Mitchell.
	Would you have words for him?
	Have you had words for him regarding his letting the press know about it?
	Well, we'd hoped that that wouldn't happen.
	It did cause a few difficulties in keeping this You're not unhappy you did it?
	Oh good heavens no!
	But we did publish, you know, Dr. Ryan published the results and everything works out the way
	it's supposed to.
	So I can't be too frustrated with Ola on that regard.
	But it would have been helpful if we had announced it a little more measurably.
	You're not unhappy you did it?
	Oh, good heavens, no!
	Because it did indeed show us that what we were experiencing works exactly the same way
	in space as it does here.
	and...
	And subsequent experiments in the laboratory have shown us that we don't have an inverse squared effect like we do with other electromagnetic effects.
	That it is truly a nonlocal effect we're dealing with.
	All right, east of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Where are you, please?
	Kansas City.
	Kansas City, all right.
	Dr. Mitchell, honored to speak with you.
	The question I have for you is, you speak a lot about spirituality and you speak about that people will not be so paranoid in the future with what they find out from what you believe we will find out.
	Do you have a religious feeling?
	Do you believe that there is a higher being controlling us?
	I don't use the word being.
	I interpret it quite differently than that.
	I work with the idea of the God within rather than the God without.
	In other words, I consider the whole universe as divine intelligence.
	As I write in my book, That we scientists must rethink the problem that the gods do exist, they're throughout the universe.
	And I say to the theologian, your gods are too small, that the whole universe is in the divine experience, and we just merely need to change the way, subtle way we think about it a little bit, and it all fits as far as I'm concerned.
	So how would you explain life after death, or is there?
	Well, that's a lengthy one.
	Read the book and I do touch on that.
	I approach this from the point of view of energy and information, that it's a very natural thing that's taking place, that the information representing human life, or the experiences of human life, are indeed recorded, are indeed preserved, is a better word.
	I call it the giant hard disk in the sky, facetiously.
	We now have a quantum mechanical mechanism which we're writing about and studying right now as to how that takes place.
	We have a pretty good handle, a pretty good theory on what's happening here.
	Doctor, I've always personally explained it by just believing that creation however it occurred and a creator not necessarily at all mutually exclusive.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	There's no reason the hand of the creator could not have molded and started all this on its way.
	Yeah, exactly.
	It's like the details of the Big Bang.
	The details that we're talking about here are so fine that they become a little bit moot.
	But the fact is, this is a creative, organizing, intelligent universe.
	And the details of its beginning, we still don't quite grasp.
	But perhaps we will in the future.
	Wellston the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good evening.
	Oh, cool.
	Hi, this is Matt from Idaho.
	Hello, Matt.
	Hey, I could make a hobby of this.
	This is the second Moonwalker I've talked to.
	Who else did you talk to?
	Buzz Aldrin on the Larry King Show.
	Very good.
	About a year ago.
	Anyway, I don't really have a question, per se, other than just a little personal experience that I had.
	As far as Dr. Mitchell, when you talk about The experience of the oneness and whatnot.
	Back in 1988, I was standing on the shore of Jackson Lake, Grand Teton Lodge, Grand Teton Park.
	It was a perfectly smooth lake on a cloudless, beautiful night.
	I was standing there.
	The whole lake was like a mirror.
	All of a sudden, it's really hard to explain.
	It's like you said, but if you do experience it, You'll never forget it.
	That's exactly the point.
	The experience is sometimes ineffable but once you have experienced it you never forget it and it's very hard sometimes to explain to someone else unless they've had the same experience.
	Then you don't need to explain it.
	The only thing I can say is that the closest I could come to it is that it was almost like every single cell in my brain Just all of a sudden, at once, understood the whole thing.
	In the book, in my book, I describe this.
	The classical mystical experience is described in the literature as Samadhi.
	This comes out of the Sanskrit, the ancient language of mysticism.
	And I describe this in the book as when the entire brain body is in resonance with the zero point field.
	And it provides a sense of ecstasy, a sense of connectedness, a sense of of this ineffable experience that you're trying to describe,
	and which I try to describe equally and effectively.
	But there is apparently now a physical explanation for this, and we must ask ourselves, why did
	nature provide these feelings at all?
	And of course I go into that one in the book too.
	All right.
	Thank you, man.
	Let's go into this one.
	Let's see if you can handle this one.
	Have you done any thinking about the nature of the soul?
	Somebody asked you about life after death.
	In other words, are we more than the sum total of our biological parts?
	Yeah.
	That's where this information comes from.
	A way of looking at it.
	This is a metaphor.
	This is a way to look at it.
	Is that the sum total of our experiences can be called information.
	Everything before now is just the information about what we've experienced.
	In other words, your life is information that you remember.
	In other words, everything in your mind right now is just a memory from the past.
	So, if we say that that memory, that information is coherent.
	That there is a way that it is preserved that is about as good a scientific description of the soul as one can come up with and we now have a mechanism for how that is preserved and carried forward.
	That's what I'm working on at the moment and it's a testable hypothesis.
	Science is going to be able to deal with this very, very shortly.
	You believe that we will begin to get a grasp on it, actually?
	I think we're doing so right now.
	I'm working with a number of scientists in Europe and here in the United States, including my good friend Hal Puthoff, that I worked with for years.
	And we're all batting these ideas back and forth.
	And it goes to the nature of holography.
	In other words, one of the things in physics that we're all familiar with now is a holograph.
	Sure.
	Two-dimensional and three-dimensional.
	And it turns out that the brain constructs its images much in the same way holograms are constructed.
	And it also turns out this may be nature's way of creating its coherence, its resonance, this interconnectedness we're talking about.
	Now, we're getting a little heavy for an early morning show, but that's probably going to be my next book as we try to explain this in late terms.
	Fascinating.
	Okay, we are the sum total of our experiences and maybe more.
	We're now entering an age where all kinds of memory and computer tricks are possible and storage and speed are increasing of CPUs.
	Will the day not come when Information may be exchanged between biological entities and machines.
	Or at least, I guess what we call machines now may become part biological themselves.
	Well, I kind of question that.
	And this is a central point, so you can't be too adamant about it.
	But it's the fact that the inner experience of a silicon chip is probably quite different
	than the inner experience of a carbon-based brain.
	So it's not likely that we will have androids that are very good humans.
	It is because of this subtle difference in non-locality or inner experience, which goes
	to our intuition, our ESP, etc., etc., all of which we humans experience because of the
	particular nature of our carbon-based mind-brain spirit, if you will, which is somewhat different
	than a silicon entity.
	It is, but there are people who talk of biologically based or hybrid computers of the future.
	Quite, it is possible that we can do that, that certainly sophisticated computer technology, but there will be certain differences and it's obviously much too early to tell how far we A lot of it, I guess, depends on the nature of awareness.
	What awareness?
	You just hit the key word, Art.
	Awareness, and this is what I describe in my book, that awareness is a fundamental attribute of nature, of the matter in nature.
	That if you start to examine awareness closely, as we in science used to think, That it is a product of our evolved energetic molecules.
	It turns out you just can't get there from here.
	That awareness has to be indigenous to nature itself.
	Now, our mentality, our ability to think, to reason, to reflect, to be self-aware, yeah, that's probably due to our evolutionary path, but awareness itself probably is not.
	At least that's the thesis I put forth.
	Fascinating.
	So you think we, in all probability, will not actually get to awareness, and if we do, then we're getting toward the core of it all, and I have to wonder if we should even be there.
	Well, I don't know whether we should be there.
	I think we have to understand it, but I believe that understanding awareness and volition, awareness and volition go together in my model.
	They are right at the core of the question.
	When we understand awareness and volition, Probably right at the central, crucial issue.
	Fascinating.
	Doctor, I have held you now for two hours.
	I have one hour of the program left.
	And if you are up to it, I would hold you.
	Or if you wish to rush off to breakfast, I know it's about six o'clock in the morning there.
	Well, let me get a refinished my teacup and I'll stay with you a minute if you like.
	I'll enjoy talking with you.
	Absolutely excellent.
	All right.
	Please go right ahead and do that.
	In the meantime, I'll begin to tell everybody how to get your book once again, all right?
	Very good!
	So go get some tea, and we'll hold you another hour.
	My guest is Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	This is a priceless opportunity, and we will lay more heavily on the phones in this final hour.
	He has written a book.
	It's called The Way of the Explorer.
	That's a good title, isn't it?
	The Way of the Explorer.
	Or otherwise to go where no man has gone before.
	Anyway, if you would like an autographed copy of his book, it really is a rare opportunity, an autographed copy of his book, dedicated to, I guess, apply the verbiage you would like, he's willing to do that.
	He's going to be signing a lot of books.
	To get it, you send $35 to post office box 6721.
	6728.
	Lake Worth.
	That's two words.
	Lake as in that which holds all that water.
	And Worth as in Fort Worth, Texas, but not Texas.
	So Lake Worth, Florida.
	Zip code 33461.
	Let me get that to you again.
	I know a lot of you are rushing for pens.
	This will be a priceless opportunity and probably one One-time chance to get an autographed copy like this, The Way of the Explorer.
	It is $35.
	It will be less in the stores, but of course you will not have a personally autographed version, and that's something to have as a keepsake.
	Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida, 33461.
	And I would like to thank you all for participating.
	If you would like to Either speak with Dr. Mitchell, or you're welcome to send a fax with a question.
	Let me give you my fax number.
	Here in Nevada, it is area code 702-727-8499.
	Now I ask that you hold it to three pages, please.
	No more than that.
	I prefer one page, if you can do that.
	A faxed question at area code 702-727-8499.
	8-4-9-9.
	And so, there you have it.
	An evening with somebody who's been to the moon.
	It's always been a dream of mine to be able to ask these kinds of questions to somebody who's done something that I... Dr. Mitchell said I may, but I suspect I may not ever get to the moon.
	In fact, that is a good question, I suppose, when we come back here in a moment.
	To ask whether any of us may have an opportunity to go.
	You never know.
	I never thought that I would get to fly at Mach 2+, but I did.
	I got to go to Paris in the Concorde, so who knows?
	Maybe an opportunity will present itself and I will get to go to the moon yet.
	Just that I'm not betting on it.
	So when we've got somebody here who's actually been, it is indeed a priceless opportunity.
	More of it coming up in a moment from the high desert.
	You're listening to the American CBC Radio Network.
	I'm Art Bell.
	don't move do
	do Call Art Bell toll free.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is indeed, by the way, if you'd like to get a copy of this morning's program with Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar
	Mitchell, you can do so by calling 1-800-618-8255.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
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	All right, now back to Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	That's 1-800-562-6438.
	All right, now back to Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	And, Doctor, I presume you've got some tea in hand.
	Yes, I have my herbal tea and I'm ready to go.
	Alright.
	We have done a number of programs on something called HAARP.
	I bet you're familiar with HAARP.
	It's up in Alaska and it is ostensibly a project to heat the ionosphere.
	In effect, boring a hole through the ionosphere in order to study radio or improve radio propagation ostensibly or to look for caverns or bunkers Beneath the Earth.
	In other words, to geographically map what's below the surface of the Earth.
	There are a lot of people concerned about harp.
	Dr. Nick Begich in Alaska wrote a book called Angels Don't Play This Harp.
	Do you know anything about the angelic nature or lack of it of harp?
	I'm sorry.
	You've sprung a new one on me.
	That one I'm not familiar with.
	Well, okay, that's worth looking into, believe me.
	They're going to be pouring billions of watts in it with a very directional antenna toward the ionosphere, and it's an interesting project, and you don't know anything about it.
	No, but I can say if it's billions of watts, that's an awful lot of energy, and it should be looked at very carefully.
	That would be my reaction to that.
	Energy and those amounts need to be studied carefully before you do that.
	Very good.
	On the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good evening.
	Morning, actually.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	To both of you.
	It's a great honor to speak to you, Dr. Mitchell.
	And I had a question.
	What was the most unexpected event that occurred during the Apollo 14 mission?
	Well, two things.
	On the lunar surface, it was the difficulty of our navigation
	on a presumably relatively flat surface.
	Finding out it wasn't so flat after all.
	And in general, it was this perception of Earth from space, which was overwhelming to many of us,
	of seeing this awesome planet we call Earth and getting this new perspective that we're talking about,
	the epiphany, the insight, the wow, the aha.
	That to me was the unexpected overwhelming gift.
	Did it seem surrealistic to you, like am I really here?
	Not quite surrealistic so much as isn't it amazing that we reacted this way.
	Isn't it amazing that here we knew, we know the earth is this little ball that looks like a globe.
	It's moving around a rather average sun in a rather average galaxy way out on the spiral arm.
	We knew all of that intellectually.
	But when you experience it viscerally, something different takes place.
	I'll bet it does.
	And that is precisely what got me on this whole path that I've been on for the last 25 years.
	What is it that's taking place?
	Why is it that we experience this?
	All right, where are you calling from, sir?
	Alamo, California.
	All right, excellent.
	Thank you very much.
	And Dr. Mitchell, how much can you see?
	Now, with the kind of mission you were on, how much detail, when you're in orbit, can you see on the Earth?
	You said you saw the forest burning.
	Well, no.
	You can see that.
	It depends on how far out you are, of course.
	If you are at the distance of the moon, well, you can see the continents, provided they're not obscured by cloud cover.
	You can see the deserts, the reddish color of the deserts, the green of the great jungles and so forth, the blue of the water.
	Detail is a little more difficult to perceive, but if you get in closer, of course, then you can see magnificent detail from 100 miles up.
	And with our modern surveillance devices, you can read license plates from space, as you probably know.
	Yes, I do.
	The whole series, the CAGE series of satellites, I do believe they can look down and read licenses.
	This is a little unnerving.
	All right, Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Hello, Dr. Mitchell.
	Good morning.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Eugene, Oregon.
	Yeah, my name is Andy and I wanted to know how the doctor felt about, or if he was familiar with, Dr. Robert Monroe's work.
	Not very well, but he was a nice guy.
	Oh really?
	Really.
	Astounding books, out of body experience and far journey and I just wanted to get your feelings on his discoveries, on his out of body, his inter-dimensional travels.
	The way I explain it in my book, and I go into this also, is that you tie it together with the remote viewing experiences, and it's merely a matter of detail and specificity.
	And, again, the inner experience from the detail of Bob and Ro's work, the so-called out-of-body or astral projection, gives the experience of being there.
	But we can't find anything that goes anywhere.
	What you're doing is apparently bringing the information here.
	In other words, information is everywhere and you're simply focusing it from a point of view.
	So nothing has to go anywhere in order to perceive that information.
	Another way of looking at it is that we're here and everywhere simultaneously.
	Now that's a tough one to get around.
	Yes, it is.
	But that seems to be the best description.
	In that it is simply a transformation of the viewpoint of information that exists, and information apparently exists everywhere simultaneously.
	I had the honor of interviewing Dr. Monroe before he died, and I found his information to be absolutely captivating.
	Do you believe that I or that a human being sufficiently trained and disciplined, could take roughly the same trip you took without all the expense.
	Part of the work we did in the laboratory was with several psychics.
	Dingo Swan, a very noted one, was able to do this and to bring back information from
	some of the larger and outer planets that was only verified later by NASA Flyby.
	Some of the work in remote viewing precisely gathers that sort of information.
	It turns out that the detail can be quite good.
	It can also be misleading sometimes because we do filter that through our own brain body,
	our own information mechanism.
	But with good training and putting aside biases, quite often the information is startlingly
	accurate.
	Fascinating.
	Moon rocks.
	Everybody would like to ask about moon rocks, and I've got a bunch of faxes here.
	You brought back, and the Apollo series brought back, many, many, many rocks.
	Did we find anything in those moon rocks that surprised or shocked us in any way, or did we just find rocks?
	Well, we found rocks, and we found that they are Uh, of course, the same minerals that we find on Earth because the periodic table of elements is the same everywhere in the universe.
	But the combinations and the processes that form the rocks are clearly quite different, which is what we set out to discover.
	What are the processes on the moon that are different than the processes on Earth?
	And by and large, they're described by the lack of the lighter elements like oxygen, What is the best theory about how the moon was formed?
	Was it from Earth?
	early in the lunar process because of the reduced gravity, the smaller size, and they
	were present here on Earth.
	But what they did was give us clues as to how the moon was formed, which in turn gives
	us clues as to how our own Earth came about.
	What is the best theory about how the moon was formed?
	Was it from Earth?
	There are people who feel it was early on from Earth.
	I will have to beg off a little bit.
	I haven't read the most recent literature, but they were formed at about the same time, early in the process, and apparently from the same giant mix, but were, I may be a little tentative here, I believe that they have had a long, long history of separate as being independent entities, but they have been May have been in conjunction at one time.
	There's one theory, and I'm a little confused here because I haven't studied it in quite a number of years.
	There was one theory that the great part of the Pacific Ocean is a place where, like Siamese twins, they were separated.
	I'm not sure whether that theory is held up or not.
	But I'll have to beg off without reading the most recent literature.
	All right.
	Dear Art, please ask Dr. Mitchell about crop circles.
	What's his opinion?
	That's something I know you know, Linda, how.
	As a matter of fact, I think she interviewed you for this coming Dreamland this Sunday.
	What do you think about these crop circles?
	They are odd.
	Any theories?
	Well, they are odd, and I'm not enough of an expert on those, nor have I studied them personally to be able to offer anything that's very valid.
	And certain of them certainly have already been I guess I have to remain open minded on it and say I don't know the answer.
	Let's get some more data here.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Where are you please?
	Yes, hello.
	Northern Florida.
	College student there.
	Late of hours there.
	Indeed.
	Dr. Mitchell, in the course of the interview there, Mr. Hoagland referred to it as the hyperdimensional physics, etc.
	Knowing a member of the space program for many years now, not in great detail, is that The spiritual, to be quite honest here if you gentlemen would like to expound, especially yourself Dr. Mitchell, Mr. Bell you're quite up there as well, is that what I have been somewhat educated to is the spiritual, truly the spiritual endeavor is something that we are truly expounding upon here and the scientific is truly
	Just a tad of a notch below that in a way, so to speak.
	I'm not sure that I fully understand the nature of that question.
	I think he's saying, do you hold the spiritual above the scientific in terms of eventual answers?
	No.
	As a matter of fact, the thesis here is that we're in a natural universe and that by and large it is explainable and knowable.
	And that if it is not, that will show up, too.
	But so far, it seems to be explainable and knowable, and certainly what we call the spiritual is an intimate, personal part of our existence.
	But I don't find it never-never-land, supernatural, anything any more hierarchically above or below.
	I don't use those terms, above, below.
	And in a hierarchical sense, it just is.
	And it's a part of the universe that we experience.
	And our hope is to understand it better.
	You seem to be very much in sympathy with those who suggest that if the space program is moving slower right now, that's no big deal.
	Let's get it together here and then worry about space later.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, we've got lots of time.
	We've got about five billion years as long as the sun is still burning out there, which is about its lifetime.
	And right now, we've got some major problems here on Earth.
	We will eventually go on back to the moon.
	We will go on to Mars.
	We will go on.
	Our destiny, I believe, is to explore this universe.
	And we'll do that in due course.
	Right now, we better get our act together.
	How worried was NASA that you might I know there was a period of isolation when you came back.
	Were they concerned that you might bring back a little bug or a virus or something that you would step on and cling to you on the moon?
	How long were you isolated when you came back?
	Well, we had three weeks.
	And we were the last flight to be post-flight quarantined.
	We were also the first flight to be pre-flight quarantined.
	So we had a double dose of it, both before and after.
	Why the pre-flight?
	Was that to avoid...?
	Well, that was because on Apollo 13, Ken Mattingly was exposed to Charlie Duke's measles, or his son's measles.
	Oh, that's right.
	And got bumped from the flight because of it, which, as it turned out, can help get them back.
	So as Jim Lovell says, blessings come in disguises.
	But we were pre-flight quarantined to prevent disease from getting into space.
	And we were post-flight quarantined to keep space disease from getting here.
	It turns out there wasn't any.
	Obviously, since you were slated for 14, when the problems occurred to 13, I'm sure it had your attention.
	Mm-hmm.
	Uh, Doctor, how close was it?
	Well, it was darn close.
	See, Apollo 13 was originally my flight.
	Um, when Alan Shepard came on the crew, We were slated to replace Gordon Cooper.
	We were slated to do the Apollo 13 flight.
	And NASA headquarters suggested that since Alan had not been in training for some time, he ought to take a little more time to train, and negotiated a crew switch with Jim Lovell's crew, which was then Apollo 14.
	So we switched crews and switched missions.
	They got the bad bird and we got the good one.
	And that was kind of the break to the draw.
	What were you doing?
	Well, I was doing exactly, if you saw Apollo 13, I was doing exactly in the lunar module what Ken Mattingly was doing in the command module.
	Learning how to fly that beast as a lifeboat, low power, no power, manually.
	It's kind of like learning to take a Your sailboat on the open seas, or let's say your dinghy on the open seas, and turn it into a lifeboat to bring the major craft home.
	Was it as frantic as depicted in Apollo 13?
	Well, I'm not sure frantic is the right word.
	It was high pressure, intense, and very, very methodical.
	As we tested everything we knew how to test, we used creativity to the ultimate extent because that particular failure We practiced that failure.
	And when they gave it to us, we said, hey guys, you just killed us.
	We don't need to practice getting killed.
	So we never really practiced it, but we knew such a thing could happen.
	But when it really happened, then we had to go to work and figure out what to do about it.
	We were just hours ahead of death all the time.
	These guys could have expired any time in the next two or three hours.
	We were solving problems that were just Warding off the ultimate destiny by ours.
	If Apollo 13 had ended in disaster instead of a miracle, virtually, would 14 have flown?
	That's a good question.
	I don't know that it would have totally killed the program at that point, but it would certainly have been a major setback.
	Had we on Apollo 14 also messed up and not had a good mission, I think that would have Mm-hmm.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Colleen from Farmington, New Mexico.
	Hi there.
	And I have two questions for Dr. Mitchell.
	The first one being, whose records would you suggest to look into the Roswell crash?
	The Army, Air Force, or Navy?
	The what, please?
	The Army, Air Force, or Navy.
	I don't know that those records are in.
	are in either of those repositories anymore.
	People have been trying to do this for years and it's in the literature.
	They've tried the Freedom of Information Act to get it to get back documents that are blacked
	out mostly.
	So I don't know that that is the right approach.
	You use the Freedom of Information Act and go after the information and we're really
	not going to get any more information until there's a general amnesty or release of classification
	on these particular documents.
	Well, as you know, Doctor, Ma'am, hold on a sec.
	They really did come out with fairly recent information saying, well, we lied, it really wasn't a balloon.
	The true story is, it was a different kind of balloon.
	Yeah.
	That's the new story.
	Yeah, the new story.
	Alright, ma'am, you have another question?
	Yes, I do.
	Dr. Mitchell, do you have any knowledge of a crash at Aztec?
	Of what?
	A crash at Aztec.
	I'm sorry, I do not.
	I think I've heard of that incident, but I have no personal knowledge of it.
	Okay, thank you very much.
	Alright, but again, you, on balance, are of the personal opinion that Roswell, that something did happen, something did crash at Roswell.
	Well, I think there's no doubt that something did crash.
	I have to say, I am not an expert in any of these particular, I have followed other people or professional investigators.
	I have looked at the overall evidence.
	I have listened to testimony.
	From very high-placed people with first-hand experience, who I find quite credible.
	But I do not consider myself an expert in this area at all.
	All right, Doctor.
	Hold on.
	Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut, back in a moment.
	you're listening to the american cbc radio network and
	i'm and
	are is taking calls on the wild card line That's 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1295. That's 702-727-1295. First-time callers can reach our call at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1292.
	Now, here again, Art Best.
	Once again, here I am.
	Very rare opportunity, three-hour opportunity at that, to speak to somebody who's been where we haven't.
	The moon, he's Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell, and he'll be back in just a moment.
	I have a little catching up to do here.
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	Okay, I'm going to plug the doctor's book for him again.
	If you'd like an actual... The book is The Way of the Explorer.
	Good title, huh?
	If you'd like a signed, dedicated copy, this is your one big shot to get it.
	It's $35, and the way you get it is, apply the name you would like it dedicated to, send off your $35 check or money order.
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	to post office box 6728 that's 6728 Lake Worth two words L A K E W O R T H Lake Worth Florida
	One more time, Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida, zip code 33461.
	Now, back to Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Post Office Box 6728, Lake Worth, Florida, zip code 33461.
	Now, back to Dr. Edgar Mitchell. Doctor?
	Hello there.
	Hi.
	A little earlier we talked about whether I would ever have a chance to fly as you flew or in any other way.
	I had one great experience, Doctor, and that was I flew in the Concorde.
	from this country to Paris. Big machine, isn't it? Oh man, at Mach 2 plus and they let me go up into the cockpit at
	Mach 2 and it was all very exciting and I remember putting my hand
	on the window when we were doing about Mach 2 and this thing
	was roaring along and the window was so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it. That's a problem. Uh-huh and and and
	you flew at Mach Gee, I forgot how to convert it, but it's uh, let's just
	figure for a minute Mach many?
	Mach many.
	36,600 feet per second.
	Oh, brother!
	What kind of temperatures during re-entry are reached?
	Well, it's enough to ablate and melt the heat shield.
	It comes up to several thousand, but I don't remember the exact number.
	Several thousand?
	Several.
	I've got a piece of it right here on my desk.
	It's a very charred core from the heat shield.
	That burns that phenolic block very dry.
	So without that heat shield, it's crispy critters.
	Well, what is designed to melt away and carry the heat away, that's the way it's designed, is to ablate or melt.
	And big globs of it burn off and go streaking by the window on the way back.
	That must be weird.
	Yep.
	To realize that minus that, that would be you burning off and going by the windshield.
	Yeah, fortunately we have a pretty good thermal control system, but it does start to warm up and it
	has to work.
	I was going to ask that. In other words, it doesn't remain a constant pretty 70 degrees inside.
	No, it starts to warm up a little bit, but the thermal controls then take over and keep you reasonably comfortable.
	All right. Back to the phones we go. First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell. Hi.
	Hi, I'm calling from Garden Grove. Good morning.
	Garden Grove, California?
	California.
	All right.
	Dr. Mitchell, we're all pretty familiar with Neil Armstrong's first words when he stepped onto the moon.
	What were yours?
	Well, my first thought was, what am I doing here?
	But it's an awesome experience.
	It's absolutely wonderful.
	If you're an explorer, and that's the way I consider myself.
	Do you remember what you said, though?
	No, I don't remember what I said.
	We can go back on the record and check it out.
	I've got the transcript right here.
	I just don't happen to remember exactly.
	It was more technical.
	It was more, let's get on with it.
	How about the first night you slept?
	What was your dream?
	Did you dream while you were on the moon?
	It was pretty fitful sleeping.
	It was what?
	It was fitful sleeping because we were anxious.
	We were tilted a little bit.
	We landed on a slope.
	And we had the feeling that we were tipping over.
	Now, we knew we weren't.
	But the bodily feeling, the sensation, was one of tipping over.
	So we caught ourselves wanting to peek out the window every once in a while to make sure we weren't.
	And, of course, we weren't.
	We knew that.
	But it was a very strange feeling.
	Not a good night's sleep at all.
	When you leave the Earth, Doctor, and you leave the Earth's gravitational effect, and you're suddenly weightless, can you explain To people who have probably always wondered what that feels like.
	The best simulation of it is underwater.
	If you're a scuba diver, go underwater, ballast, weightless, close your eyes so you don't see which way the bubbles go, and remain motionless.
	That's the way it feels.
	Or if you happen to be a pilot, you can go up and do a ballistic trajectory.
	And it kind of floats like a rock floating through the sky and you'll get the same feeling.
	I've heard it described as one of falling, too.
	Falling?
	Well, yeah, that's what happens.
	It's the same sensation as falling.
	Did you have nausea?
	Any illness?
	Or did you just take to it like a fish to water?
	Well, we conditioned because some folks had inner ear vertigo, disorientation.
	We went up and practiced in our T-38 trainers doing All sorts of aerobatic maneuvers to push ourselves right to the verge of sickness and vertigo and train the inner ear so that we can control it.
	Did you enter all this with any trepidation or great thought about it before you did it or was it just plunge ahead, hell yes, I want to do this?
	Well, my goal had been set since 1957 as I explained earlier.
	And I think most of our class, there were 19 of us selected in 1966, most of our class had the feeling, you mean we get paid for doing this?
	Yes, I know that feeling.
	We were really eager to go do the job.
	Yes, but at that moment, when you were all up in that capsule, up on top of that great big potential bomb, there must have been a moment, just before launch, when you all looked at each other, busy as you must have been, we sort of looked at each other and said, okay guys, here we go, knock on wood.
	Well, Stu Roosa, deceased, good command module pilot, Used to call those moments sweaty palms time.
	Yes.
	And every time we would ignite the engines, you'd say, OK, gentlemen, it's sweaty palms time again.
	Because there's always that moment of apprehension.
	Is it going to work?
	This equipment had never been tested in space.
	As you know, it was throwaway equipment.
	Once you use it, it's done.
	And so each piece of equipment is brand new.
	And you always have that concern when you start it off.
	Is it going to work properly?
	Yes, good morning, Edgar.
	I'm a retired Air Force officer who had the occasion about 20 years ago to invite Buzz Aldrin up to Dulles Air Force Base for an awards ceremony and hosted him for a couple of days.
	I consequently got to talk to him at length He was reluctant to talk about his experiences and sightings of the UFOs.
	Was at that time and is there still a precondition to talking about those kind of encounters?
	We didn't have any of those encounters as far as I know, including Buzz.
	There may be things I don't know, but I don't believe so.
	Did Buzz Aldrin tell you he saw UFOs?
	Yes, he did.
	He said most of the astronauts had had some experiences with disks, lights.
	I'm sorry, that is simply not true.
	That's just not true.
	I don't know where you're getting your information, but I'm sure I'd believe it.
	How about his experiences in specific?
	Well, if he's not aware of Mr. Aldrin's experiences, he can't comment on them.
	And as far as his are concerned, he said he had none, right?
	Right.
	So there you are.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Good morning.
	Where are you, please?
	Are you talking to me, R?
	It's you I'm talking to, yes.
	All right.
	Good morning.
	I'm a long-time listener.
	This is the first time I ever called you.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Galveston County, not too far from NASA down here.
	Oh, okay.
	I didn't know until the night that you and I walked on the same ground.
	I was an Air Force medic at Lackland Air Force Base for four years.
	Well, all they did to me at Lackland was give me eight weeks of hell.
	Well, and I'm also a ham radio operator.
	Well, alright.
	I'm thirty feet on seventy-five meters.
	There you are.
	We've got a lot in common, then.
	Yeah, let me... I've got something to talk about to the doctor there.
	This is a really interesting night, Art, and you're killing me.
	You keep me awake.
	I found out early in my teens that I was a psychic healer of sorts and as I grew older I discovered a lot more about it and I did a lot of it.
	I never would charge anything for it and it got to where it was aggravating.
	People would call me in the middle of the night to go take care of back pains and neck chronic problems I'm talking about.
	And it kind of created some problems at home so about 10 or 12 years ago I just started kind of dropping away and more or less kind of going into denial with this thing.
	And I'm very careful about who I do it with now.
	I take care of their problems, but I've been, 95% of the time I'm 100% effective and about 5% of the time I'm about 95% effective.
	My big question is, I don't know where this comes from and I never would charge anything for the gift, I guess you'd call it.
	I don't know where, my grandmother now was 100% Cherokee Indian.
	And my aunt was, too, and they had all sorts of things, clairvoyance and everything else.
	All right, well, let's ask where it does come from.
	Doctor, you related the experience with your mother.
	Yeah, it's the way we're built.
	We all have that capability.
	Now, not everyone is able to exercise it as effectively as this gentleman can.
	It probably has a genetic component that allows us to manifest it, but it's really more the neural connections in the brain.
	We're now very convinced that we can train people to do all of these things, particularly if we begin prenatally.
	and visuals with the North Tower Film Group on these areas.
	We're now quite convinced that we can train people to do all of these things, particularly
	if we begin prenatally.
	The brain is like any muscle in the sense that its capabilities, you either use them
	or lose them.
	It's amazing the number of capabilities that we have as very, very young children that
	because we don't exercise them or they are negated by doubting parents, those neurological
	connections then are pruned off.
	Nature does that.
	You either use them or lose them.
	But it turns out you can get them back, some of them, with arduous work much later in life.
	So they're not lost forever.
	But we all seem to have these rather amazing capabilities.
	I call them creative capabilities.
	It goes to the whole area of healing, psychokinetics, the things that Rick Galler does, the healers that I work with, the gentleman that's our caller, everybody has these capabilities latent.
	And I'm convinced that they're emerging.
	We will learn to use them better.
	They're a part of our right-left brain complex.
	That we can very quickly learn to use better if we put labor to it.
	Let's take the example of your mother and the story you told us.
	That healing doctor, did that come to your mother from an external source, the healer, or did that come because your mother believed?
	Both.
	It's the interaction of the two.
	The healing comes from within us.
	The body knows how to heal itself.
	We have to get out of the way.
	And quite often someone else can help us get out of the way.
	So we've got to get our mind out of the way.
	I think the actual energy itself, the basic energy comes from within the body and the repository, the source of that energy is the zero point field.
	I think that more than likely, and this is speculative stuff, that probably the people that use acupuncture, the ancient orientals that learned acupuncture, that the little acupuncture needles are probably uh... the mechanism for accessing zero point field so they're
	they're energetic uh...
	that's that's and it's both it is both the healing comes from within ourselves
	but an external healer helps us access it
	uh... west of the rockies you're on the air with doctor edgar mitchell good
	morning good morning art
	where are you sir i am in raleigh wyoming
	this question i'd like to pose kind of a multi-faceted question
	Me and a friend of mine discussed something about actual artificial intelligence.
	I'd like to know if the government or he or a group of his comrades have been working on anything like this.
	Artificial intelligence in the form of like a cyborg or a robot?
	Well, we were actually discussing that a little earlier.
	Very briefly on that.
	Artificial intelligence is just managing information.
	And we're being very, very successful at artificial ways or robotic ways or computerized ways to manage information.
	But the real question is, what is the difference between the way the biological organism manages information and a computer chip?
	I maintain that there's always going to be a difference.
	But we're getting pretty sophisticated with our artificial intelligence.
	We are, and it's an interesting thing to wonder where it's going.
	Yeah, and we don't have an answer to that.
	It's just going to go where we can take it.
	We're never really going to limit ourselves in terms of how far we go, are we?
	I mean, we're always going to have debates about whether we're getting in God's or the Creator's territory, but we're going there anyway, aren't we?
	I think that's true.
	The question is, What is the value system, the moral system that we evolved to guide our volition?
	And it's very clear that we do not have the proper guidance for our current technologies.
	We are way ahead in our technological capability of our understanding of morality and ethics and so forth.
	That brings me to a very important point, whether it's the HAARP project that I touched on a little while ago, or it's scientists doing medical experimentation.
	For example, and I certainly don't necessarily object to it, but there was an experiment in San Francisco in which they attempted to inject a A baboon's immune system into a human being led AIDS and virtually destroyed his immune system and tried to substitute a baboon's.
	And the scientists, after they announced it, Doctor, said, well, yes, there is some danger to humankind that some virus that was from the baboon may be introduced to human beings in this way.
	Some danger, but they went ahead and did it and sort of told us about it Afterwards.
	So, we are getting ahead of things in a lot of cases.
	Scientists are in areas where, to me, it's a little worrisome.
	You feel that, too?
	Well, I feel it's very, very worrisome.
	I'm very concerned about not understanding the implications of our decisions, particularly in genetic research, in this sort of biological research.
	You know, these viruses are organisms, too, and they need to survive.
	The survival impulse runs throughout nature.
	Nature is going to try to find a way, each level, to make itself survive.
	We have to be quite careful about what we're doing here.
	We have to invent, discover a new way of looking at morality and ethics.
	It derives from what is the nature of the universe that we're living in?
	Who are we really?
	Those questions need to be answered.
	Do you think that the race between technology and our ability to control it morally or ethically is going to be lost or are we going to catch up to it and say to ourselves, now wait a minute, let's think a little bit before we do this.
	I am an eternal optimist that we humankind will come to our senses, recognize the problem and deal with it.
	Doctor, we are utterly out of time and so we're going to have to end it here, but I would like to say someday I would sure like to have you back again.
	And certainly for a while it goes by fits and starts, it's not a smooth path.
	Doctor, we are utterly out of time.
	And so we're going to have to end it here.
	But I would like to say someday I would sure like to have you back again.
	Well, maybe we can work that.
	And it's been a pleasure being with you, Art.
	Thank you.
	And Dr. Mitchell, I'm going to give you the honors.
	The honors here are, just say goodnight, America.
	Goodnight, America.
	Thank you.
	Take care, Dr. Mitchell.
	Bye-bye now.
	All right.
	That's Dr. Edgar Mitchell and Apollo 14 astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell.
	Thank you all.
	It has been a glorious night, as always.
	Dreamland Sunday, back with the syndicated program.
	Monday night, Tuesday morning.
	Thank you all from the high desert.

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