Air Date: Feb. 22, 2007 237 lines.
He had a conscience and called you?
And of course I dismissed it.
I thought it was far-fetched, unbelievable.
And then about six months later I read a story in the Los Angeles Times about a man named Richard Lee Guthrie who was found hanging in his cell while in federal custody.
He was supposed to give a tell-all interview the next day before he died about the Oklahoma City bombing.
He was a member of a group called the Midwest Bank Robbery Gang and the story said he had robbed banks
to attack the federal, get money to attack the federal government.
And they didn't have a photograph of Guthrie, though, just the story.
And then shortly before he was executed, I received a message from Timothy McVeigh, who told me that when he saw my brother's photograph and heard what happened to him, he knew that the FBI killed my brother because they mistook him for Richard Lee Guthrie.
And Guthrie, I believe, was John Doe, too.
And the description for John Doe, too, when my brother was picked up,
Five foot nine, powerful upper body build, dark complected, dragon tattooed left forearm.
The only other person I know of with that description was Richard Lee Guthrie.
So they clearly killed your brother and Guthrie in prison with the same classic hanging?
Well, as I said, it was difficult to convince people my brother had been murdered.
Because no one likes to think the government of the United States does those kind of things.
But we have the autopsy photos.
Please describe those.
Well, his head was smashed to the skull in three places.
His throat was slashed.
A stun gun burns all over his body.
Even the soles of his feet are bruised from being beaten.
He's beaten head to toe, front to back.
And then he was, we now know, was strangled with a pair of plastic handcuffs.
After they'd beaten him to a pulp.
And obviously he couldn't tell them anything because he didn't know anything.
But that started me on the quest to, as I said, I didn't start off to solve the bombing.
I started off to find the men who killed my brother.
But every trail has taken me back to the bombing.
And that's when I filed that lawsuit here in federal court in Utah, asking the judge to order the FBI
To produce all documents related to a failed sting operation they were running in a white supremacist paramilitary training camp in eastern Oklahoma called Elohim City and that led to the bombing.
It got out of hand.
Let's walk through how you were able to get in touch with Nichols, how he tried to contact John Ashcroft, how the media was then blocked from ever being able to reach him, how you were able to get in and what Larry Nichols told you.
Well, Terry Nichols reached out to me.
Apparently, before he contacted me several years ago, he had written to Attorney General Ashcroft, volunteering to tell everything he knew about the bombing and the others involved.
Not only did no one from Attorney General Ashcroft's office follow up with Nichols, they actually issued, apparently, an order barring him from all contact with the media.
It was thereafter that he reached out to me, and I was able to get in to see him and spend a day and a half with him.
Describe how he reached out, what you had to go through to be able to meet with him, and what happened in that hour and a half meeting.
It was a day and a half.
Day and a half, excuse me.
Basically, I was able to come in under the radar.
I'm sure that if they'd known why I was there, I would never have gotten in.
But you're a lawyer, you're a counselor, that probably helped you.
I'm sure it did, but the real story is that this man apparently wants to tell his story.
Now, I can't assure your audiences that what he says is true.
You, sir, have more knowledge about the... I mean, you're relating things about the history of the bombing case that I wasn't aware of, so you apparently have studied this a long time and know a lot about it, a lot more than I do.
Well, I made up my first film about it in 1997, but I've just interviewed literally hundreds of experts on the subject.
Now, I know they've sealed this, but we can talk about what the press has reported and any other facets you feel comfortable in getting into.
What did Larry Nichols tell you?
What's in the affidavit?
That I don't feel comfortable talking about, but I can tell you what is already out there in the public record as a result of this lawsuit that led me to go see Mr. Nichols.
When you sue under the Freedom of Information Act for government documents,
There are two exemptions that are bulletproof that you cannot get around, that you will not get the documents.
National security and... Well, that's actually three.
The other two are, if there's an ongoing criminal investigation, or if the government has promised anonymity or confidentiality to informants, I was fearful that the government would come back, the FBI would come back and say they had reopened the investigation, in which case I would have gotten nothing.
Instead, they came back and told the federal judge that they had promised confidentiality to four informants, and please not to turn over any documents.
Well, the judge said he would allow them to black the names out, but to turn the documents over.
And the documents show that the FBI's informants were robbing banks and armored cars with Tim McVeigh to get the money to construct a bomb, and that one of the four informants was actually the explosives instructor.
Who taught him how to make the bomb.
Now to be specific here, this is creating the history, the ledger, and this is what McVeigh said, they were staging fake robberies to create the illusion that it was an organic domestic group that was going to carry out the attacks.
Classic black ops, where they go out and engage in criminal activities as a smokescreen.
That's basically what some of the things that Nichols said.
Classic black op,
Gladio, Ty Papa, please continue.
The, uh, as I said, the documents are, it's not me making this up, the documents show that at least as recently as two days before the bombing, that they actually called Elohim City asking for help, and this was reported by one of the informants, that four months before the bombing, another informant had not only reported the plan, but had said that they had actually scouted the target.
Now, Hal was one of the informants earlier, and she tried to warn them, and then they tried to arrest her and charge her, telling her to shut up.
They did prosecute her, but she wasn't convicted.
And, uh, so many of these things had, uh, I would not have gotten where I am today on this, but for people have, and I don't know who's, who has done it, had leaked me copies of records.
There's a lot of feds that don't like killing kids in a daycare.
They're not going to put up with it.
And that made my case in front of the federal judges.
I had unknown to the FBI, I had two copies, two documents already about this operation.
And so when I asked for the records, they came back, the FBI did, and reported to the judge that there were no such documents.
And then I filed those two copies.
And then the FBI came back and said that they were fake.
And I had an affidavit from an FBI agent who said they were real.
And with that, the judge lost all patience with the FBI.
They had no credibility with him.
And then later, didn't it turn out that similar documents and some of the same documents had been released before, but without some of the names blacked out, and then that proved they were real?
Yes, they'd found a way out through another source, apparently.
They never denied the documents.
They now conceded.
And when they were ordered to produce them, to do a manual search, they came back and produced about 100 pages of them.
Where does it go from here?
I mean, where does your suit go?
How much danger is Nichols in?
Quite honestly, I'm afraid I was surprised he's still alive.
Not only is my brother dead, Guthrie dead, I had an eyewitness to my brother's murder and he was found hanging in his cell too.
People have a habit of dying off in this case.
But I guess you've got a
Serious beefs, you're way past Karen, they murdered your brother.
That, and I was smart enough to not keep anything a secret, that as soon as I, and I'm thankful to your show, and others like you, sir, that the story got out there, because to me, that was my best insurance policy.
Oh, my heart was beating this morning just to get you on for my safety.
I mean, I know, you cannot keep this type of stuff secret.
You gotta get it out immediately, that's your insurance policy.
And I was surprised how quickly they were able to get everything sealed.
Final segment with you, sir, after this quick break.
Other key facets we'll walk through and delineate here with our guest, attorney at law Jesse Trinidou, whose brother was brutally tortured to death, Kenneth Trinidou.
The bottom line is, no man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on a-coming.
Texas Ranger Captain Bill McDonnell, we'll be right back.
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I think so.
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We're good to go.
I called our guest at about 8 a.m.
this morning, my time, and he was already at the office.
He's been there since 5 a.m.
He's very exhausted.
A lot of filings.
He's got his own practice, of course.
We really appreciate him spending time with us to come on today, and we're trying to get him on for longer next week.
In the five minutes we've got left, Jesse Trinidou,
Where is your case going now?
What's going to happen with this 19-page affidavit that has been filed?
And what are some of the materials you sent us today that we posted on InfoWars.com?
Well, first of all, again, Mr. Jones, I want to thank you for, may have been the first, I think you were the first person to report this story back in 2004 and didn't say it was crazy.
What I filed that affidavit for
Was to get an order from the judge to allow me to take the deposition of Terry Nichols and to videotape that deposition.
That's the only way his story will ever get out there.
Good Lord, you have a video?
No, I said that's to get an order to allow that to happen.
Oh yeah, okay.
To order the government to produce him and let me take that deposition and videotape that deposition.
You cannot tell that whole story in a declaration.
You cannot tell, he's made that very clear to me.
I know you'd like to be able to tell us what you learned in a day and a half of interview with him.
It's, uh, the more important things are the documents that were attached to that affidavit that were sealed, too.
Uh, some of them were from, most of them were from the FBI, and some were from, uh, Tim McVeigh's defense team outlining exactly what happened.
So the defense team knew?
But Stephen Jones didn't bring that out?
I don't think they were allowed to bring it out.
If I recall correctly, and I wasn't paying attention to the trial, that the judges would not allow any evidence of other people being involved.
Well, bottom line, Nichols and yourself are in grave danger while this is sealed, and I know you can't violate this federal proceeding in a seal order, but I mean, these documents, you just said it, the defense detailing inside job, did the federal documents detail that?
I read them that way.
I read them as others involved.
Bottom line, you're educated inside view of this.
Off the cuff, why do you think the government was involved orchestrating this?
I don't know if they intended it.
I think my feeling is that the FBI had
Fumbled the ball so badly at Waco and Ruby Ridge that I do remember this, that they were under constant pressure and criticism from Congress and from the media and from the public.
The ATF was close to being disbanded.
I think they put together this harebrained idea at Elohim City to lure in all these militia groups under the pretense of teaching them how to rob banks and armored cars and attack the federal government.
And I think they plan to catch them in the act.
I don't, for a moment, think they intended to.
Well, that's what the BATF tried to leak and claim.
The same thing every time they get caught in England with British Intel carrying out attacks, they always claim they just missed it.
And let me tell you, sir, I've studied this.
They may tell some of their BATF that showed up in bomb gear a minute after the bomb went off, but for the insiders, they meant to bomb it the whole time.
You know, that building was blown from the inside out.
I'm not an explosive instructor, but my personal view is that it got away from him.
Well, either way, they're culpable.
I mean, you can't... To me, I think you stepped way over the line when your informants are robbing banks and armored cars.
Well, did you see the report out of the Orlando Sentinel where the Nazi rally was led and organized by an FBI informant?
I read that report.
I mean, I've seen this a hundred times.
In fact, I've never really seen a big case where it isn't the Feds running it.
Well, my experience, at least in this case, has been whenever you have three people who get together to criticize the federal government, two of them will be informants.
We've got about a minute and a half left.
Any other key points you'd like to add, sir?
Other than that they've not denied it.
I mean, the accusations I made against the FBI are that they set up this operation, that they had informants who robbed banks with McVeigh to fund the attack, that they had an informant who was the explosive instructor and taught them how to make the bomb, and they got away from them.
They have not once denied those accusations.
They have just begged this federal judge not to order the release of the documents.
Now, clearly, if I made those accusations against you, wouldn't you have denied them?
Then we have Danny Colson who claimed he got up there in just an hour or so from Dallas by car with the hotel receipt that he was there the night before.
One other thing I might add is it's my understanding that the BBC is going to run an hour special on the bombing and perhaps the government's involvement.
It's going to be a total whitewash.
I was in the 9-11 piece last week.
I didn't see it.
I don't know.
I haven't seen it yet.
It's supposed to be the 4th of March.
Okay, we got 20 seconds left.
Any other points, sir?
Other than I expect a hell of a fight from the Department of Justice over that deposition.
Trying to keep it sealed indefinitely?
Not let it happen.
Not let me be able to take Nichols' complete statement.
What's the time frame on getting that statement?
Whenever the judge hears the case and orders.
And rules on the motion.
Thank you so much for your courage, Jesse Trinidad.