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Name: 20031224_Wed_Alex
Air Date: Dec. 24, 2003
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	Big Brother.
	Mainstream media.
	Government cover-ups.
	You want answers?
	Well, so does he.
	He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
	Alright, my friends.
	Welcome to
	This Christmas Eve edition of the Worldwide Transmission Against Tyranny.
	It is Wednesday, the 24th of December, 2003.
	We'll be live the next three hours.
	We have Jack McClam, Police Against the New World Order, joining us to talk about the news and what we face in this global crime syndicate system in the next hour.
	And we're going to have wide open phone.
	Brace yourselves, the news is all extremely revealing as we chronicle the criminal activities of the global elite, also known as the New World Order.
	Rumsfeld, bet your life, threat to U.S.
	is serious.
	This is the same guy that lies about weapons of mass destruction and mobile weapons trucks, but I take it very serious when the people
	Who were behind September 11th, and we have the evidence, are out there warning us of more terror.
	They got Patriot missiles up in D.C., in New York.
	They got tanks rolling around, armored vehicles.
	They got aircraft in the skies, all part of training you that militarized society equals safety.
	Security raids in cities, airports, trains, you name it.
	They say Bin Laden's behind it.
	Bin Laden's about to get us.
	Why, this is the most serious it's ever been!
	Meanwhile, Bush has announced what we already knew was public, a total legalization of anyone that gets here.
	In fact, if you're an illegal alien, and you come here illegally, you get citizenship and a green card, and then citizenship faster than someone who came here legally.
	It's total legalization.
	Ridge, a few weeks ago, said they were going to do this.
	Lord Bush has announced it.
	Already tried it two weeks before 9-11.
	ABC News, suicide bomber threat turns out to be false.
	I want to go over their false terror alerts of the past.
	Also, family sue.
	U.S.
	reject 9-11 bribe.
	That's the Toronto Star headline.
	U.S.
	government trying to bribe the victims' families of 9-11 to keep their mouths shut.
	And I'm sure you've already heard something we already knew for many years.
	Colonel Craig Roberts will tell you that his father died of the human mad cow disease.
	I've seen death certificates right here in Austin.
	Death certificates!
	I've shown them on TV.
	I've read the names of people who've died from mad cow in humans right here in Austin, Texas.
	Buddy.
	Mad Cow meat may have been eaten, officials say.
	Seven nations halt U.S.
	beef imports from Asia to China to Europe.
	Inspections for mad cow lag, those done abroad.
	Government experts shock that meat was processed.
	It goes on and on and on.
	It's big agribusiness that did this.
	98% of the beef is totally safe and it's raised on ranches and farms, but it's the big agribusiness feedlots that have done this and it's still going on and this will destroy millions of families, millions of individuals, hundreds if not thousands of communities if it continues.
	My family pays the property tax, pays for everything with cows in East Texas.
	And, you know, they're land-rich, money-poor, and without the cows, or with the price going to drop, it's just horrible.
	So we'll go over that also.
	U.S.
	reports first case again of mad cow disease.
	We'll be going over that.
	It is not the first case, folks.
	This is where they were unable to cover it up, and it actually made it into the news.
	Very convenient timing.
	China cracks down on unofficial worship.
	They've got their mobile death bands out doing their jobs.
	Get into Israel's nuclear program.
	It's all coming up here on the show, ladies and gentlemen, today.
	So you'll definitely want to stay with us.
	We'll be back on the other side.
	The websites are InfoWars.com and PrisonPlanet.com.
	Hey folks, Michael Trudeau here to tell you about the first-ever half-price package sale at the Ark Institute.
	You'll get 25 big packets of Ark's most popular non-hybrid heirloom vegetable seeds, plus four of their most popular self-reliance books.
	Learn how to grow your own delicious veggies and build your Ark.
	Imagine green beans, carrots, peas, and cucumbers, tomatoes, cabbage, squash, herbs, and more.
	Then, harvest your seeds to grow year after year for old-time self-reliance.
	In Living Well on Wheat, learn how to cook, eat, and survive on the golden grain.
	Preserve your good food for years with the USDA Canning Guide.
	In surviving a bioterrorist attack, you'll learn how to protect yourself and your family now from the attacks our government says are coming.
	Not if, but when.
	Normally selling for $140 plus shipping, get this whole package now for only $69 and shipping is free.
	At half price, supplies are limited.
	For credit card orders, call today 1-800-255-1912.
	That's 800-255-1912 or send a money order for $69 to the Ark Institute.
	P.O.
	Box 1227 Jacksonville, Oregon 97530.
	Hello folks, Alex Jones here introducing you to the Black Berkey Replacement Elements.
	They're new and they're more powerful than any gravity filter element on the market.
	These powerful filters fit most gravity filter systems and can be installed in minutes.
	Black Berkey Replacement Elements are so powerful they remove pathogenic bacteria, cysts, parasites to non-detectable levels.
	The trihalomethanes and volatile organic chemicals such as atrazine, styrene, chloroform, and MTBE are removed below detectable limits.
	Black Berkey Filter Elements also reduce nitrates and unwanted metals such as lead, mercury, and aluminum.
	Get the Black Berkey Filter Elements, leave in the nutritional minerals that your body needs.
	And the Black Berkey Filters are reclaimable.
	Simply brush them up with Scotch-Brite pads.
	Normally $48 each, you get a 2-pack for only $91, or a 4-pack for only $173.
	Get the powerful Black Berkey Replacement Filters now by calling New Millennium at 888-
	803-4438 and tell them Alex Jones sent you.
	That's 888-803-4438 and protect your family.
	Hey folks, Alex Jones here announcing the release of my most comprehensive documentary exposing the New World Order's orchestration of the September 11th attacks yet.
	In my new film, The Masters of Terror, we chronicle the globalist master plan for world domination.
	The Masters of Terror details how the elite are using manufactured terrorism to drive the world population into accepting tyranny.
	Witness in horror the execution of the September 11th attacks and the ensuing whitewash.
	The casual society control grid, infallible microchips, mass mind control, militarization of police, concentration camps, foreign troops massing on U.S.
	soil, the USA Patriot Act, Super Big Brother Total Information Awareness Network, and much, much more.
	It is absolutely vital that everyone see the masters of terror.
	Only by exposing the perpetrators of September 11th can we stop them from carrying out the next wave of attacks and destroying our constitutional republic.
	Order online now at Infowars.com or PrisonPlanet.com or by calling 1-888-253-3139.
	That's 888-253-3139.
	From his Central Texas Command Center, deep behind enemy lines, the information war continues.
	It's Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.
	We have a man who's been fighting the globalist crime syndicate for over 20 years.
	Joining us in the next hour, one of my favorite guests, Jack McClam, police and military against the New World Order.
	You don't want to miss that in the next hour.
	And he'll be able, of course, to talk about all the news we're going to be covering.
	We're going to have open phones here on this Christmas Eve edition of the World Wide Transmission that you'll be able to tune back in on Friday.
	I'm going to have a rebroadcast then of this show and I guess hear yourself on the air.
	There is so much to cover.
	We have mad cow disease, which has already been here for over a decade.
	They've covered it up.
	Again, I've seen the death certificates.
	Of the spongiform encephalopathy.
	People dying from it.
	I've seen death certificates of people I know here at Austin, Texas.
	For at least, what, three years?
	I've seen several death certificates.
	This is hushed up real quick.
	People get visits by men in black outfits, black suits, telling them they better keep their mouths shut.
	They tell hospitals, shut your mouths.
	Very, very serious issue.
	And again I mentioned in the first segment Colonel Craig Roberts says his father died from this.
	A lot of people have
	I have seen this type of stuff develop.
	I need to get Colonel Roberts back on covering that subject because I'm going back in memory.
	We did a show about two years ago.
	It may not have been his father.
	Was it his mother?
	The point is I hate to speculate and my memory is failing me there.
	I ought to call Colonel Roberts up and have him on about that in the third hour of his home.
	That's a good idea.
	I don't want to be announcing family members have died and get it wrong.
	Occasionally my memory fails me, but I know we've had Craig on to talk about that and talk about the medical records, but I know people here in Austin.
	I have held, I have held the death certificate.
	I have seen it myself.
	Rumsfeld, bet your life threat to US is serious.
	The Pentagon on Tuesday conducted an exercise to prepare for a terror attack and
	Widened warplane patrols around the United States amid fresh concern about threats to nuclear power plants and other vital infrastructure facilities.
	Two days after the U.S.
	government raised its terror alert to the second-highest level, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld emphasized the gravity of the threat.
	You ask, is it serious?
	Yes, you bet your life people don't do that unless it is a serious situation, Rumsfeld told a Pentagon briefing.
	Well, Mr. Rumsfeld, you've been caught lying.
	Almost everything that comes out of your mouth is a lie, or a fabrication, or a twisting.
	And I have a whole stack of mainstream news articles where the CIA and the FBI say they've been ordered to put out fake terror alerts to, quote, create fear and hysteria.
	The White House Press Secretary, months before he resigned, admitted, yeah, these terror alerts are being put out for political effect.
	Why did Ari Fleischer admit that?
	That's an amazing, amazing admission.
	Rumsfeld, bet your life, threat to U.S.
	is serious.
	And now they're saying they think they're a commercial airline, pilots who are about to attack us any minute from inside the cockpits and the armored doors are only going to help them.
	They've got the military out, they've got the missiles out, the Patriot missile batteries out, saying, oh, we didn't do this before 9-11, but now we are.
	Oh, but you sure did about a year before 9-11 in Genoa, Italy, didn't you?
	You had the missiles on top of the roofs there.
	Then you claimed you'd never heard of a plan to fly planes into buildings.
	No, we just have hundreds of news articles that would have been announced years before 9-11.
	So what do you think about this terror alert?
	They're saying this is more serious than ever and why everybody's afraid and we're all in deep trouble.
	What are we going to do?
	Well, what are you going to do?
	And have you begun to realize who's really behind these terror attacks and why they're doing this?
	Report!
	Bin Laden behind terror threat!
	Intelligence indicates Osama al-Zahari approved plans to hijack foreign airliners.
	Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and his chief deputy.
	Zahari approved the terror plans that led U.S.
	officials to raise the threat level and heighten security through the holidays, intelligence officials told NBC News.
	But wait a minute!
	Back on Friday they found the white powder on Pennsylvania Avenue in D.C.
	They said there was a female suicide bomber planning to attack the Statue of Liberty.
	Turns out those were totally fake and false, and no one will say where the threats came from, but they weren't accurate.
	Again, more of this fear-mongering going on.
	According to the report, U.S.
	intelligence has gathered details about the attack plans, which they say include Al-Qaeda operatives hijacking foreign airliners and flying them into targets in the U.S.
	The information even includes some specific flight numbers.
	And the Pentagon is stepping up air patrols.
	Oh, you had air patrols for Payne Stewart, the golfer, 18 minutes after he was off course.
	He was surrounded by five F-16s.
	But the most controlled corridor in the world, the DC-New York corridor, it took an hour and 25 minutes until you did anything.
	Also, immigration reform, reform, folks, on Bush agenda.
	And how are they going to reform it?
	Total legalization of anyone that can get here.
	And this is out of the Washington Post.
	They are praising Bush for this, saying how wonderful it is, and admitting that it will make every illegal that's here, every illegal that gets here, totally legal.
	You get here, you get a green card, you get IDs, you get welfare.
	You think we've got a lot of illegal aliens here from Latin America and China and the Middle East and Eastern Europe?
	Folks, you haven't seen anything yet.
	This is the Pan American Union.
	We'll be going over that in a few minutes.
	I wanted to go back over these false terror alerts from Friday.
	ABC News suicide bomber threat turns out to be false.
	America suffered a spasm of fear and alarm yesterday as two reports of terrorist activity rapidly gained credibility.
	The discovery of white powder on Pennsylvania Avenue pavement outside the White House caused a serious concern and Central Washington to be cordoned off by police who put in process a full-scale terrorist alert.
	Tests found that it was substance was harmless.
	Also in New York, the stock market dipped because they thought it was a female suicide bomber.
	Turns out that was totally false.
	Going back, this is from World Daily.
	Terror alerts manufactured.
	FBI agents say White House scripting hysterics for political effect.
	Intelligence pros say White House is manufacturing terrorist alerts to keep the issue alive in the minds of voters and to keep President Bush's approval ratings high.
	Capitol Hill Blue reported.
	And then I have the Associated Press, BBC, ABC News, Fox News, in the terror alert, fake terror alert archive of PrisonPlanet.com.
	You can go read that.
	You ought to email that link around to people so they can see the truth for themselves.
	But Rumsfeld says, we never put out fake reports.
	We never put out false information.
	You should trust us and bet your life on it.
	You're in deep trouble.
	Funny, the more liberty we give up, the more Homeland Security gets control of our lives, the bigger the threats, the bigger the attack.
	Better give up all your rights.
	The Toronto Star is reporting, family sue, U.S.
	reject 9-11 bribe is the headline.
	Ignore deadline for compensation payouts, average 1.8 million.
	For some, it's blood money, a repugnant payoff they feel they have no choice but to accept.
	For a handful of others, oh hundreds and hundreds, the process of claiming compensation is too painful.
	They find themselves paralyzed by grief and unable to reopen, emotional wounds barely healed from the deaths of their loved ones in September 11th terrorist attacks.
	But as many as 73 families see the process of the U.S.
	government compensation as an attempt to protect those who should be held accountable for what they believe was mass murder.
	They ignored a midnight deadline last night, their last chance to apply for the government cash.
	And today they began a new stage in the arduous odyssey and will sue their government airlines and state and local authorities.
	By the way, we've had Stanley Hilton on, and he represents 400 of the families.
	400 of the families.
	We've had other people who are suing on, and their lawyers on, talking about government involvement in 9-11.
	And the Red Cross, United Way got caught pressuring families.
	Remember they raised billions, over a billion and a half dollars.
	They wouldn't give it to families unless they signed waivers.
	Why would they have a dog in that fight?
	You can't have the money unless you say you won't sue the government.
	And that was money you sent in thinking it would go to the families.
	Most of them never got anything, folks.
	But a lot of it did go to gun control groups, again, as I warned you it would.
	This may be uncharted waters, but I was thrown into a pool on September 11, 2001.
	Had to learn to swim, said Monica Gabrielle, who lost her husband Richard in the World Trade Center attack.
	I'm doing this for my husband.
	He was a gentleman and he was alive trying to get out of that building that day.
	The dead, the dying, the smoke, the tear.
	No one should have suffered like that.
	I want accountability.
	By the way, unnamed voices were on the speakers saying, everyone stay where you are.
	You'll get in trouble if you leave.
	Do not cause a panic.
	Stay at your desk.
	Meanwhile, some of the executives of the companies that were in the towers were on bullhorns.
	Get out of the building!
	Firefighters were in there.
	Get out!
	Get out!
	The voices, stay where you are.
	Stay right there.
	Stay right there.
	And that's on the record, folks.
	Stay right there.
	Everything's fine.
	Everything's fine.
	It's two buildings are smoking.
	But they'd evacuate those buildings again for some white powder on the ground, which the feds do to scare people.
	Almost every federal courthouse in the country gets this white powder yearly to scare everyone.
	So sick.
	Mad cow meat may have been eaten, officials say, from Reuters.
	Meat from a cow with a deadly mad cow disease may have already been eaten, possibly in the form of hamburger.
	Washington State Deputy Director of Agriculture Bill Brookson said Tuesday, asked at a press conference if it was possible that the meat had already been consumed.
	Brookson replied, it is possible.
	Seven nations halt U.S.
	beef imports.
	We'll go over that when we get back and we'll take your calls.
	Toll free.
	At 1-800-259-9231.
	There's this news and a lot more coming up.
	You'll want to stay with us.
	The United States seems to be celebrating over its triumph of reducing government debt.
	But the truth be told, public and private debt increased to a record high in 1999, reaching a peak of $14.8 trillion, marking 10.57% annual increase, outpacing its previous 10 years.
	The U.S.
	economy receives its currency by taking on debt through private banking institution called the Federal Reserve System.
	In the year 2000, debt growth collapsed to only 4.5%.
	It's bad enough that the U.S.
	citizens is bound by debt in order to have commerce.
	However, shocking the economy with the reduction of this magnitude could wipe out years of growth in a stock portfolio.
	Before you make your next investment decision, get the cold hard facts.
	Call 1-800-686-2237 for your free report on the outstanding level of public and private debt.
	You must understand how recession and depression are driven by outstanding debt.
	Call 1-800-686-2237.
	That's 1-800-686-2237.
	Do you have the energy you need to do all the things in life that you need to do?
	If you're like most people, the answer is no.
	And that extra cup of coffee or an afternoon candy bar is not the solution.
	There's a safe and effective way to energize your life naturally.
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	Call Be Alive today to find out more.
	Call toll free 866-321-1900 to order your supply of energizing Be Alive royal jelly and ask how you can get a free one month supply with your order.
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	You've asked for them and now they're here!
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	If you have fluoride or arsenic in your water, you need the Berkey PF2 host filter elements.
	Get a set of two for only $49 or get two sets for only $89 by calling New Millennium at 888-803-4438.
	And tell them Alex Jones sent you.
	That's toll free.
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	You've searched for it.
	We have it.
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	We all need calcium.
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	The Genesis Communications Radio Network proudly presents the Alex Jones Show.
	Because there's a war on for your mind.
	Alright, your calls are coming up here in just a few minutes.
	We've got a real treat for you today.
	We're going to have Jack McClam on in about 35 minutes.
	Police against the New World Order.
	And then simultaneously at about 1230, that is central time in the middle of the show, I'm going to have Colonel Craig Roberts on with him and both those guys together and myself on air for the rest of the show and taking your calls.
	So this should be extremely interesting and informative and dynamic listening coming up.
	In the next two and a half hours, we're about to go to Mike and Ed and Clint and Charles and everybody else that's patiently holding.
	The toll free number to join us on air is 1-800-259-9231.
	Now understand, I love American agriculture.
	My family makes their living off of ranching in East Texas.
	Most of the beef in this country is the best in the world.
	But in Europe and in the US, they started the practice decades ago of feeding rotten, decomposing animal parts.
	Cows, horses, dead goats, you name it.
	Dogs, cats, they throw it all into a big mix.
	Chew it up into this protein meal.
	And blood meal and other things that they feed to the cows.
	Now a cow isn't meant to eat meat, folks.
	Much less rotten meat or meat from its own species.
	And so this stuff got into the food supply.
	And now you've got all this weird Alzheimer's and all these new types of diseases, brain degenerative diseases.
	I just called Craig Roberts.
	It was his wife's grandmother and he had another friend whose father died of it.
	So he's had a family member die of it and he's had friends whose parents have died from it.
	I knew years ago he talked about that on the air.
	I couldn't remember the details.
	I'm sort of just blurting out this info, why I have no idea.
	I'm the first to tell you folks, I catch myself, sometimes we get bad info in our brains and just hope I don't have the mad cow.
	Okay, it's just a joke.
	But the point is, is that it's horrible.
	I mean, most of the beef in this country is raised properly.
	It's raised out in fields, eating grass.
	Okay, and you give them some grain or range cubes in the winter.
	But these feedlots, and the stuff they're feeding cows at these feedlots, is ridiculous.
	It's out of control.
	And I've seen death certificates here in Austin.
	Okay, I've had people I know whose mothers and fathers have died, and they bring me the death certificate from the local hospital, and it says that they died of this spongiform encephalopathy.
	It's scary stuff!
	And so by not admitting it, by not stopping feeding them the blood products, that's still going on, folks.
	Still going on.
	And by covering it up, then the feds are going to get to come in and regulate the small farm, the small ranch, and you better believe big agribusiness is going to get even worse.
	These are the people, this is the FDA that has authorized radiating your children's poultry, pork, and beef.
	For the school lunch program.
	These are the people that ship in the raspberries and strawberries sprayed in human excrement for fertilizer out of Mexico and thousands of children get hepatitis B and C. It's admitted, but never a major issue.
	They could care less about you.
	And there's major news articles, Associated Press, Rocky Mountain News, BBC, Reuters, where the Food and Drug Administration
	has been covering up the mad cow.
	Colonel Roberts is going to talk about that with us.
	And we're talking about the police state and the terror alerts and the general saying we need martial law and all this with Jack McClam and of course, Colonel Craig Roberts, both of them military veterans, both of them, veteran retired police officers.
	Both of them injured in the line of duty, SWAT team commanders, helicopter pilots, most highly decorated on the Phoenix Police Department.
	That's Jack McClam, Colonel Roberts, amazing guys.
	We're going to come back though and go to calls here after I finish up with the Mad Cow News.
	Mad Cow meat may have been eaten!
	And that's the State Deputy Director of Agriculture,
	There in Washington State, seven nations halt U.S.
	beef imports.
	That was as of last night.
	Now I'm reading that it's more undetermined numbers.
	Japan and South Korea halted imports of U.S.
	beef on Wednesday after the cow in Washington State tested positive for mad cow disease, depriving American exporters of two of their largest overseas markets.
	Inspections for Mad Cow lag.
	Those done abroad, that's the New York Times.
	CU expert shocked that meat was processed.
	Russia considers banning imports of U.S.
	beef.
	Europe's banning it.
	USDA refused to release Mad Cow records.
	I'm gonna try to hit on this and we'll go to your calls and just a bunch of other news on the other side.
	InfoWars.com.
	We're on the march.
	The Empire's on the run.
	Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.
	Hey folks, Michael Trudeau here to tell you about the first ever half-price package sale at the ARC Institute.
	You'll get 25 big packets of ARC's most popular non-hybrid heirloom vegetable seeds, plus four of their most popular self-reliance books.
	Learn how to grow your own delicious veggies and build your ARC.
	Imagine green beans, carrots, peas, and cucumbers, tomatoes, cabbage, squash, herbs, and more.
	Then, harvest your seeds to grow year after year for old-time self-reliance.
	In Living Well on Wheat, learn how to cook, eat, and survive on the golden grain.
	Preserve your good food for years with the USDA Canning Guide.
	In surviving a bioterrorist attack, you'll learn how to protect yourself and your family now from the attacks our government says are coming.
	Not if, but when.
	Normally selling for $140 plus shipping, get this whole package now for only $69 and shipping is free.
	At half price, supplies are limited.
	For credit card orders, call today 1-800-255-1912.
	That's 800-255-1912 or send a money order for $69 to the ARC Institute.
	P.O.
	Box 1227, Jacksonville, Oregon, 97530.
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	Are you one of the millions who suffer from arthritis or chronic back pain?
	Michael Trudeau here.
	I speak from personal experience when I say living with either one isn't any fun.
	You see, a little over 20 years ago, I was involved in a car accident.
	That injured some vertebrae and discs in my back.
	The damage led to degenerative arthritis in my upper back and neck.
	I tried physical therapy and chiropractors for years, usually with little or no positive results.
	The chronic everyday pain was miserable.
	Many friends offered advice on how to get relief, and I humored most, again with little or no success, until my friend Cliff Scott recommended his MSM.
	He said it was all natural and worked to relieve inflammation.
	Once again, albeit reluctantly, I took another friend's advice.
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	Side effects?
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	Waging war on corruption.
	Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	I was just talking to Mark who runs the show during the breaks.
	I talked to him and he was saying, yeah, why would they, who started this practice of feeding cows, dead cows, dead sheep, dead dogs, dead cats.
	Oh yeah, in England there's video of them throwing every type of dead animal you can imagine.
	Animals that were euthanized, you name it, in these big vats and they just grind them up and turn them into this protein meal.
	Then you feed an animal that doesn't eat meat, rotten meat.
	Now a dog can eat rotten meat, folks, because they're designed to do it.
	They have a stomach that can do it.
	Cats can do it.
	But herbivores can't even eat meat, period.
	Then you feed them rotten meat, folks.
	Now, herbivores, that's what humans are.
	Or, excuse me, omnivores is what humans are.
	We can eat meat, we can eat plants, we can eat it all.
	But still, these prions do pass through the digestive process, do get into the bloodstream, do lodge in the brain that is made up of water and cholesterol.
	And they just stick in there and start growing and rotting holes in your brain, just like the aluminum does it.
	Just like the fluoride does it, just lots of stuff in our environment that goes into the oil-based brain tissue and wreaks havoc.
	And so now seven nations, seven nations including two of the biggest beef exporters, importers I should say, that we export to, Japan and South Korea.
	And by the way, I've seen articles before where they find Mad Cow in this country.
	It'll show up in the Associated Press and then suddenly the Fed say, oh, false alarm.
	Why now are they admitting something that we've always known about?
	Why is that happening?
	And now Mexico is saying they're not going to accept our leave.
	You know what this has done?
	Do you know what Mad Cow
	That's
	Only a few hundred cows and sheep got it, but they killed eight million sheep, four million cows, and I predicted that the government would not allow people to restock their animals, claiming that, well, you had too many cows and sheep to begin with, you're hurting the environment with their methane ejections, their flatulence, and also the runoff from their
	So what do you think about them apples, folks?
	And how is this going to affect our economy?
	I know it's going to hurt my family who makes their living, who pays their outrageous property taxes with the cows they sell every single year.
	And I want to ask you, are you going to go enjoy that hamburger?
	Are you going to continue to eat beef?
	I mean, I've known about this for years and I still eat it.
	Because it tastes so good.
	Again, am I going to get Parkinson's disease, which has exploded now?
	Am I going to get Alzheimer's?
	I mean, they've got people who are 30 years old now going, oh, you've got Alzheimer's.
	I got that guy on that show, Frazier.
	He's like 45 years old.
	Can hardly remember his name now.
	Can't remember his lines.
	He's got Alzheimer's.
	Let's go ahead and go to the calls.
	We'll get back into the terror alerts and the new 9-11 developments and China with mobile death vans killing Christians.
	Oh, it's interesting news today.
	Mike in Illinois.
	Thanks for holding her on the air.
	Go ahead.
	Hey, Alex.
	How are you doing?
	Good, sir.
	I'm supposed to have primer for Christmas dinner tomorrow, and I'm rethinking what I want to do with that.
	Well, generally, they're selling the sick... Here's the problem with beef.
	People usually sell their sick cows.
	And they keep their cows that aren't sick.
	And so these feedlots will sell their sick cows.
	And that goes right into your hamburger.
	Right.
	So prime rib probably ain't bad.
	Let me ask you a question, Alex.
	You know, they're poisoning our water with fluoride, poisoning our brains with aspartame and diet pop and all that.
	And obviously everything under the sun, we're being affected by it.
	I mean, basically, what are we going to do?
	I know this is an information war.
	I want to get out the information to everybody, but as an aware person, what are we supposed to do?
	Do we live in a cave?
	We don't know what to eat.
	You go to a store that sells organic vegetables, and really, how organic are they?
	You talked about how many times this stuff is made with grasshopper DNA and all that.
	Yeah, they got cockroach in the major tomatoes.
	They got salmon genes in most corn now.
	Human genes in pigs we're eating.
	Folks, this is admitted.
	Spider genes are in a bunch of different things.
	This is happening.
	And the big pharmacological, big agribusiness companies, executives have said, we're going to introduce it into the food chain and then you won't have a choice.
	Everyone will just have to accept it.
	And then the new plants they're putting out take over the other varieties of the same plant, for they can't produce seeds that produce plants.
	So they're stopping the life cycle.
	They're patenting and blocking and damming up the life cycle for total monopoly control.
	I mean, do you realize how dastardly this is?
	It's horrible, Alex.
	You know what?
	If they can't get you one way, they're going to get you through one other way.
	You've got to drink and you've got to eat.
	So they can get you that way.
	Well, that's why you gotta filter your water.
	That's why you, I mean, we do go buy organic beef and right here at the Central Market and the Whole Foods, they will tell you where it came from.
	I know the ranches and farms that beef's coming from.
	I know where they grow their tomatoes.
	They list this now because people are demanding it and you can get organic food.
	Right?
	I guess the only way we can do it, Alex, is just get the information out there.
	I mean, let me ask you, Alex, what do we do?
	I mean, do you just not eat the beef?
	I mean, you just go organic, right?
	That's really all you could do.
	There is organic beef, there's organic eggs, there's organic poultry, there's organic pork, there's organic lamb, and by the way, Cheetos just came out with organic.
	Now, I don't believe for a minute that it's really organic, but the point is, they're trying to sell this to you now because, I'm telling you,
	Twenty, thirty percent, depending on what numbers I look at, are now going organic.
	We're forcing them, by moving against them, to start offering this.
	So, they're definitely feeling the sting of people's awareness now.
	No, Alex, that's the issue with Washington State.
	It's probably just they got out to the wrong people and they had to make it... That's exactly it, okay?
	There have been many other cases where a cow is convulsing all over the place, they go test it, it has the mad cow, and then suddenly you hear it many times it's been announced and they say, oh, it was a false alarm.
	What they do is they go into hospitals and the doctor will diagnose a human with this and then they're told to shut up because the entire hospital would have to be destroyed.
	Because you can't get rid of these prions.
	You can't get them off the instruments.
	And so they will give you a false diagnosis.
	But I have seen cases where they do give the proper diagnosis and then it's just hushed up.
	So there's a lot of this going on.
	So the idea is you don't eat a McDonald's, you eat organic beef.
	I do eat the cage-free eggs, Alex.
	I don't know if you've probably heard of those.
	They're brown.
	Yeah, range-fed.
	Well, they taste ten times better.
	Yeah, of course they are.
	I had them for the first time a couple weeks ago.
	My brother had them.
	He says they're fantastic.
	I've been eating range-fed.
	My mother would go to a health food store.
	This has been going on for 30 years.
	And buy those brown eggs.
	I eat a white egg.
	It tastes like, folks, organic, on organic tomato.
	On organic squash.
	Taste so much better.
	It tastes like something you grew in your backyard.
	Yeah, it's unbelievable, Alex.
	And then you want to grow your vegetables in your backyard.
	I live in Illinois.
	It's good farming, good soil here for corn and whatnot.
	You want to grow your own vegetables and you got to worry about the fallout from chemtrails.
	So they get you anywhere they can, Alex.
	Thanks for the call.
	I appreciate it.
	Ed in Colorado.
	You're on the air.
	Go ahead.
	Welcome.
	This is Ed in Canada.
	Okay, well a little closer to Mark, go ahead.
	Okay, a few days ago you were ranting about the alleged torture of Saddam Hussein.
	It didn't bother me personally because I believe an eye for an eye for these bloody dictators and mass murderers.
	But then some caller mentioned Rabbi Jacob Spivak, who is in favor of torture, and he wanted to debate you.
	Remember that?
	Well, no, I said that I'm going to try to contact him and have him on.
	He has his own shortwave show every night, and I... Okay, sir, I'm not going to sit here and plug other shows.
	No, no.
	Let me just stop you for a second.
	Let's cover what you brought up first, Ed in Canada, okay?
	Are you listening?
	Now let's cover what you said first.
	Now let me explain this Saddam Hussein thing for everybody.
	Saddam Hussein is a wicked devil.
	I stand against Saddam Hussein.
	Saddam Hussein, this is admitted, this is Republican congressional reports, this is not my opinion.
	Alfonso Mata had a huge report in 94 on this.
	He was hired in 54.
	As a CIA assassin to kill communists.
	Yes, I know.
	Let me, let me, let me finish.
	Because, you know, this isn't just sound bites here, and then I'll let you talk.
	Then, in the late 60s, he was put in as the head of the Baathist security apparatus.
	In the late 70s, he became the dictator of that country.
	He was publicly funded and told to attack Iran, given the weapons by our government.
	That's mainstream news.
	Then, April Gillaspie, in 1990, six days before he invaded Kuwait, the U.S.
	Ambassador told him, We're on your side.
	We have a treaty with you.
	Not Kuwait.
	Do whatever you want.
	We won't get involved.
	This is on videotape.
	He invaded.
	So, let me explain something to you.
	If I walk up to you and I punch you in the face, Ed in Canada...
	My fist doesn't get punished, my brain does.
	My body, the person Alex Jones, gets punished.
	Saddam Hussein was the fist, and to watch the Bushes and the neocons sit there and go, look we've punished our evil fist, oh aren't we good, is a disgusting joke.
	Now, we never tortured people in the past, we shouldn't begin torturing now, because then we become Joseph Mingala.
	Now, torture is un-American, unscriptural, and bad.
	Do you want... Now, you go ahead and make your point now.
	Well, first of all, Saddam got his weapons mostly from the French and the Germans.
	That's not true.
	And some from us.
	Not true.
	They got them from us and the Russians.
	And the Russians.
	Well, he got the nerve gas, the botulism, the anthrax, the VX, uh, the West Nile from the United States government.
	And there's no doubt about the atrocities he committed.
	No doubt about it.
	Oh, really?
	But North Korea's good, let's give them nuclear reactors, and let's cut Taiwan loose to Communist China that's killed conservatively.
	Conservatively, conservatively, 50 times what Saddam Hussein's ever killed.
	We also supported Joseph Stalin, remember?
	Yes.
	So, anyway, this rabbi just wanted to contact you.
	He said yesterday he tried it four or five times to get a hold of you, and you would not respond to his phone calls.
	He says you don't have the guts to debate him.
	Well, I was nice and respectful about the person on the show.
	I've never even heard him.
	I don't know who he is, but I wrote down the name and was planning after the... Hold on a minute.
	Put him on hold.
	Hold on just a second.
	Now, this is two days ago, okay?
	And I've not been contacted by anybody.
	Okay?
	Maybe I've got an email I've missed or something.
	But I respectfully said I'd like to debate that person.
	I'd like to hear, you know, discussion.
	I'm sure he's a nice person.
	And then you call up blabbering about how, you know, you want to torture Saddam and how I'm afraid to debate people.
	I'm the one.
	He didn't say he wanted to debate me.
	I'm the one you pee on.
	Excuse me, I'm not going to get mean here.
	Thanks for the call, Ed.
	I'm the one that said I'd like to have a discussion with this person.
	So, that's just classic.
	Let me give you the number to my office.
	You can give the person this number.
	I won't be in for the next few days.
	I'm going to spend time with my family, but I'll call them after the New Year.
	It's, or before the New Year.
	I'll be back next week.
	It's 512-291-5750.
	512-291-5750.
	Okay?
	And just everything you were saying, Ed, was a bunch of garbage.
	Okay, I'm the one that said I'd like to have a discussion with this person.
	I'm the one who talked about having a debate, and I haven't been contacted, or I've been missed the contact.
	So yes, I'm afraid.
	I'm afraid of debating people.
	I cower in fear.
	That's what I'm known for.
	Torture is wrong.
	Torture is bad.
	Okay?
	You can't trust confessions that come from torture.
	You can't trust a government that will torture.
	Okay?
	So, I'm a nice person.
	And what I had to say about this was on the record.
	Somebody called in saying mean things about this person and I said, don't do that.
	Not gonna have that.
	I'd like to, you know, discuss this and debate this with the person and find out why.
	I said, a lot of good people believe in torture because they're not seeing things clearly.
	And that's what I said, and you call up all aggressively and mean, and I was aggressive right back to you, Ed.
	But, uh, we had another idiot caller who said that none of our planes got shot down over Vietnam and nobody got tortured.
	And against a wall of ignorance like that, I can't do anything for you.
	Okay.
	Now let's talk about real issues.
	Let's talk about the Mad Cow.
	Let's talk about the terror alerts.
	If you want to talk about torture, we can do that.
	But if you call up with a fairy tale, there's nothing I can do for you.
	Clint in Missouri.
	Clint, you're on the air.
	Go ahead.
	Thank you, Alex.
	I want to wish everybody a Merry Christmas.
	First of all, I don't think you would be afraid to debate anybody, quite frankly.
	Well, I've been on
	I mean, I've been on national TV debating Lionel Chet when the head media takeover guy for Bush, right after he threatened me in a bathroom.
	I mean, I've snuck into Bohemian Grove.
	I walk up to police and military at checkpoints and get in their face, and I haven't been contacted or I missed the email.
	Well, if you're not afraid to take on the feds, I don't see you avoiding the rabbi.
	Well, I mean, my whole point is, is I was nice about this whole thing.
	And I'm not going to sit there and hear a bunch of garbage.
	I just want to make a couple of real quick points and then I'll get off and let somebody else get on here.
	First of all, I want to say thank you and let you know about a man that lives near me named Luther.
	I just want to let you know he constantly copies off your videos.
	He's taken them to the Sheriff's Department, the Police Department, the Courthouse.
	I mean, he's been very active and he's a real patriot.
	I just want to thank him.
	Second of all, I want to bring up the fact that a lot of Bush's claims and justifications for war is coming out now.
	It's coming out in the mainstream.
	Now Condi Rice doesn't want to testify.
	Now they're saying the claims he made about the nukes are false.
	I've always had a theory that the mass graves that Sean Hannity is always talking about were probably caused by us selling out the Kurds.
	And then I read, I think it was on your website, if I'm not mistaken, that we had an active role in helping Saddam against the Kurds.
	And what I'm leading to is, all of this makes me nervous, because if this really comes out and becomes a problem for the Bush administration, I just wonder if they're going to take the heat or if they're going to create a diversion.
	Well, they already have with the terror alerts.
	And they've been caught putting out false terror alerts in the past.
	So that's what we're dealing with.
	Thank you.
	That's a good point that you made, Clint.
	We'll come back and talk to Charles and Michael and others.
	And we got Jack McClam, Police Against the New World Order, coming on, and Colonel Craig Roberts.
	And we'll talk about torture with them as well.
	We'll talk about torture.
	It was wrong for Joseph Mingala, it's wrong for us to do it.
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	From his Central Texas Command Center, deep behind enemy lines, the information war continues.
	It's Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.
	Alright folks, we've got Jack McClam and Colonel Craig Roberts coming up, and of course, loaded phone lines and a ton of other news items.
	A caller from Colorado just called in, Jay, and said that one of our wonderful affiliates out there, somebody popped in, unnamed person, and said, oh, we've tried to contact Alex the last two days, five times.
	Folks, I get hundreds of phone calls a day, and I am awash in messages and information.
	I'll call my office, but I'll have Rabbi Spivak on right now.
	In fact, everybody, don't call this number or they won't be able to get through.
	Whoever is breaking in over me or wants to get this person on and have a discussion about torture, I'll have it right now.
	Let me get my guest on for about 30 minutes and then we'll have whoever wants to come on, from either the Colorado Radio Network or this rabbi.
	And you know, I did my show, what was it?
	It was on Monday, two days ago.
	And a couple callers called in and said, yeah, this guy's saying, you know, there's a bomb that's going to kill 100 troops.
	We need to, you know, you know, torture, you know, is torture good to save the troops if we've got one of these terrorists and can torture him to get the answers?
	That's the moral argument we've heard on this.
	And I said, well, you know, how do you spell this guy's name?
	You know, I'll try to get him on.
	You know, it's like I say I'm going to get Ron Paul on, and two weeks later you hear him on.
	Or I say I'm going to get somebody on on the abortion issue, and you hear him on a month later.
	So, but I mean, to make a big issue of, we've called him, and he's not calling us.
	I'm a nice guy, folks.
	I'm sitting here wanting to discuss this with people.
	I mean, I bring people on who disagree with me all the time as guests.
	It makes for great radio.
	And, you know, it fleshes out the idea.
	So, here's the number.
	Live to this network.
	To put the, whoever, somebody from the station, whoever popped in, and I'm, you know, I hear nicely, just said, well, we tried to contact Alex, so, like I said, I told you, I've gotten a lot of messages, I haven't seen it, it's two days ago, folks, really just a day ago, Tuesday, you know, after Monday, and I haven't looked at all my messages this morning, I've been busy getting ready for the show, but here's the number to the network, H, and please, listeners, do not call this number, because then the person won't be able to get through.
	877-996-4327.
	Let me give it out again.
	877-996-4327, extension 125.
	Okay?
	Again, that is not a number for listeners to call in.
	You call in on that number, Mark, I want you to hang up on listeners that call that number.
	Because we gotta, as you know, keep that line open.
	So if somebody wants to call in, let's have a debate in the third hour.
	An hour and three minutes from now.
	I'll have a couple people on who want to disagree with me.
	It's not like we have to all hate each other and get in a big fight over it.
	Right now, let's do it.
	Let's go.
	I'm here.
	I'm ready.
	Because torture is immoral.
	When Joseph Mengele did it, when Hitler's people did it, when the Japanese did it to our troops, when the Vietnamese did it to our troops, it's wrong.
	And I stand against torture.
	It's un-American.
	And I know how these arguments work.
	The media's been selling us these arguments, that it's a good thing.
	And a lot of people that I know are going, yeah, maybe it's good.
	And so I'm not saying, you know, that people that have bought into this are even bad.
	I think they're misled.
	And so I've been nice and friendly about this the whole time.
	You know, having a debate doesn't mean we have to, you know, descend into getting mad at each other.
	And so I'm here right now.
	Let me get that number out again.
	877-996-4327, extension 125.
	So, I want to get the Rabbi Spivak on.
	Don't even know who he is.
	Never heard of him.
	Except since Monday.
	And I'll have anybody on who's prominent out there who thinks torture is okay in certain circumstances.
	Because I disagree with that.
	That goes against my code of honor.
	Uh, so, I'm here waiting.
	And, uh, so, that's, that's what it comes down to.
	Okay, I know we got loaded phones and we got a bunch of guests.
	We'll get to your calls, our guests, and a bunch of other news items.
	Didn't even plug my videos this hour.
	Too busy dealing with this.
	Through the years of providing water filters to America, you've come to us and we've listened.
	You asked us to make the water level visible to eliminate the guesswork when refilling the water.
	We listened.
	You asked for an elevated base so the system could be used in places beside on the edge of a counter.
	We listened.
	You asked us to develop a filter that was made in the USA.
	We listened.
	You asked us to include an emergency light for camping and during power hours.
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	Big Brother.
	Mainstream media.
	Government cover-ups.
	You want answers?
	Well, so does he.
	He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	And now, live from Austin, Texas,
	Alex Jones.
	Alright folks, we're already into the second hour.
	Mad cow disease confirmed to be in the United States.
	Yesterday it was seven countries pulling out of buying U.S.
	beef products, and now it looks like there's 12 countries announcing it.
	We've got the terror alert.
	Rumsfeld saying it's the most dangerous it's ever been since 9-11.
	He said, you better bet your life on it.
	Really cryptic statements.
	We've got Jack McClam, police against the New World Order, coming on to talk about Tommy Franks and General Eberhardt saying martial law is the next step.
	We've got Colonel Craig Roberts coming on because he's had friends and family that have died from mad cow disease that we'll be discussing that with him and a bunch of other issues and on Monday I think it was in the
	Third hour, a couple listeners called in and said, one of those stations you're on, a great station, 1360, the American Freedom Network flagship there in Colorado.
	We've got some other great affiliates there too, the Colorado Radio Network.
	There's this guy on the air who thinks that, you know, torture might be okay in some cases.
	I said, wow!
	You know, I'd like to debate that with a person.
	Supposedly they've been trying to contact me.
	I haven't.
	I don't know if they're contacting the network, because that's not where I'm at.
	I'm not in Minnesota.
	But I'm going to find out.
	We're going to try to get Rabbi Spivak on in the third hour to hear his point of view.
	Because this is the first I've heard of it today from another listener who said the rabbi wants to debate me, and then he heard I'm dodging it.
	Wait till you get 2,000 emails a day and 100 phone calls a day and 100 faxes.
	I'm just swimming in stuff, so I'm glad you contacted me.
	I'll have anybody on the show that disagrees with me.
	I think that makes for great radio.
	Makes for wonderful radio, and I think it's part of the First Amendment that we have these discussions.
	I know we got loaded phones.
	We'll get to your calls early with a man I really respect, and that is Jack McClan.
	Do we have Jack?
	Okay, we'll get Jack on at 5 after then.
	Again, we've got so many phone calls here.
	Let's talk to Charles in Louisiana.
	Charles, you're on the air.
	Go ahead.
	Torture is good, my friend.
	Let me explain.
	You get statements they want.
	They threaten your family with it.
	They can put bags over you, stomp your toes, send you to prison, make you a terrorist.
	They can make you say anything you want.
	Torture is good.
	What's wrong with you?
	We need it.
	They've been torturing for years.
	Well, you act like you've had some experience with this.
	17 years, 4 months and 12 days, my friend.
	Threatened my family, said if you don't sign this one, or sign this one, you ought to sign that one, we'll put your wife in jail.
	I mean, it's wonderful.
	They could have made me a terrorist any time they wanted to.
	Mike Hanson, who does camera work for me, was caught on video in the jail.
	Mike refused to be searched at a checkpoint.
	Going on out in the parking lot, and Mike was tortured severely.
	He finally sued him, got the videotape, and right when it gets to them putting their hands around his neck as he begs, the videotape cuts out.
	Well, maybe that's... See, that's the problem with torture.
	It goes downhill.
	I mean, of course you would... Of course, if we had Adolf Hitler, we'd want to torture him.
	But you become Adolf Hitler when you torture Adolf Hitler.
	You can make a person say anything they want.
	There's only one side of torture.
	Their side.
	You understand?
	I could make you a terrorist, me a terrorist, anybody a terrorist.
	Well, I didn't mean to get off into a huge torture discussion, but it is important, and I agree with you.
	I mean, I'm against it.
	I'm against our troops who were tortured in Vietnam.
	I'm against Hitler who tortured people.
	I stand against torture.
	Well, we're torturing Iraqis.
	We're bulldozing their houses down with no trial.
	But anyway, I wanted to ask you, have you heard anything that George Bush is sick?
	Have you heard any rumors that maybe he's sick?
	No, I haven't heard that.
	Well, anyway, I want to wish you Merry Christmas, and I want to ask the people, please get your tapes.
	My VCRs are down right now.
	I haven't ran too many off.
	Please get these tapes.
	Let's get this thing on the road.
	Alright, God bless you.
	We'll be back.
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	Alex Jones here, announcing the release of my new film, Police State 3 Total Enslavement.
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	If you want to understand what the new world order really is,
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	Visit InfoWars.com or PrisonPlanet.com to order or call toll free 1-888-253-3139.
	That's 888-253-3139.
	Order today and spread the word!
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	He's the T-Rex of political talk, Alex Jones, on the GCN Radio Network.
	You know, talk radio, one of the things that fuels it is controversy.
	People love it.
	But I always stay away from it.
	I think the news is hardcore enough and serious enough that that's what's going to save this country, and that's what the listeners really want to hear.
	That's why my show is, quote, the number one patriot, you know, conservative alternative show in the country.
	But two days ago, and I don't want to get off on a big side issue on this, folks.
	Two days ago, a couple callers called in bashing a host on one of my affiliates.
	And I said on air, I'm not going to do that.
	You know, there's this argument from some conservatives that, well, 100 of our troops are going to die from a bomb, but we can torture one of these Iraqis should we do it.
	And I said, I disagree with that.
	I'd like to debate the person, you know, who's saying that.
	But I said it very nicely.
	And then, you know, a guy called in and said, in the first hour, you're a coward.
	You won't debate this guy.
	He's been trying to get in touch with you.
	And I've got two employees who work in my office and answer the phones and do the shipping.
	One of them is off this week, you know, on vacation.
	And I did find out that yesterday a bunch of messages have been left.
	And then the lady that works for me writes those out.
	And I haven't been over there to the office to pick them up yesterday.
	I'm kind of lollygagging about a little bit more than I usually do.
	Well, that's not true.
	I did a TV show yesterday, three radio interviews, and my own radio show.
	But I didn't get over there and get the messages.
	So great!
	My whole point is, is that I'm not dodging a debate because it takes me a day to get the message.
	And that's not what was said.
	I actually called one of our wonderful affiliates, 1360, and talked to them.
	They said, no, we were just making it clear because we'd said, yeah, we were setting the debate up that we had contacted you.
	Well, that's good.
	Now we have Rabbi Spivak.
	Coming on in the next hour, we're going to have Craig Roberts on and Jack McClammon.
	These are both former military men and police officers, and I think they can explain why torture is wrong.
	I'm going to let them debate him if they want to do that, but I want to keep it nice and cordial because we're all on the same team here.
	Now, I know we got loaded phones.
	We're going to get to your calls.
	There's a bunch of serious news.
	Mad Cow, impending terror attacks, Rumsfeld saying, bet your life on it.
	This is the most serious ever.
	We got generals in government, out of government, talking about martial law.
	The hair on the back of my neck is standing up right now.
	I am very, very concerned about that.
	We need to discuss this, but we will spend 30 minutes of the next hour on torture and on this issue with the rabbi and our guests.
	We have three guests on.
	It's going to be really dynamic.
	Wow, this is hot radio today.
	So I'm sure you're glad you're tuned in.
	A man I really respect is Jack McClam, police and military against the New World Order.
	He joins me today, and Jack, good to have you on, sir.
	Good to be with you, brother Alex.
	Out of the gates, I want to go over Mad Cow, I want to go over the terror alerts, I want to go over the martial law statements, but first off, give us in two minutes a summation, Officer McClam, on what you think about torture.
	Well, in 1976, 1975-1976, we began to adopt in our police academies in the nation, and in our government in general, the end justifies the means political philosophy, Alex.
	I know because I was academy instructor in the sixth largest police academy in the nation, the Regional Police Academy in Arizona, and we began to train our officers
	In that anything is okay, as long as it justifies us winning in the end.
	And it's changed America, this political philosophy, that we should do what our enemies do.
	Actually, you know, we're no longer a Christian nation, so it's okay to act like animals, like our fellow
	Well, fellow humans here on the face of the earth that has this philosophy that torture, lying, cheating, killing is even okay.
	Doing terrorism against your own people, as long as it promotes the goal, whatever that goal is.
	So, Alex, it's just more of the same.
	Us doing to these
	My whole point is that Jesus Christ was tortured.
	With the crown of thorns and the lashes and dragging the cross and being beaten.
	I mean, the other day I was talking about how thousands of helicopter and jet pilots were shot down, captured, tortured.
	I have family in that war.
	We have a bunch of congressmen who were tortured.
	And this caller called in and said, no, we never had a plane shot down.
	We never had anybody tortured.
	I mean, just delusional, and then I pointed out, well, they're saying Saddam's bad because he tortured, but now it's okay to torture them.
	I don't understand that thinking process, Jack.
	Well, we are under the Injustifies the Means political philosophy today.
	We're out underneath our Christian nation that was based on biblical principles, so we're going to find that that is the attitude of many people who have been trained through the government schools
	That justifies the means is politically fine today.
	Well, Jack, almost every episode of 24 with Keither Sutherland or Threat Matrix, almost every episode they torture somebody and it's a good thing.
	We're seeing a mass mind-warping right now.
	Yeah, that's right, brother.
	And I saw it firsthand in law enforcement.
	As the young people were taught that it's okay to lie, it's okay to cheat, it's okay to change your police reports, get in a big room, and all get together and make sure your police reports are the same because so-and-so might sue the city or sue the government.
	And now we hear about the FBI torturing, running murder for hire, police framing people, the FBI crime lab, the Houston crime lab.
	I see these articles about frame-ups every day, Jack.
	Yes, and many of these people
	Can't even be prosecuted for that.
	Government agents and prosecutors and judges that do things totally immoral and unlawful can't even be prosecuted for these things.
	Well, a listener gave a quote from the late 70s where the Italian president was kidnapped and the head of the police, federal police, they said, well, let's torture these people.
	And he said, no.
	And a caller mentioned this, and I have seen it on the History Channel.
	A caller mentioned the quote, and I'm paraphrasing it, but Italy can survive losing our president, but we can't survive beginning torture.
	Yes.
	It reminds me, brother, of about 15 years ago.
	We put together a bunch of documentation on the Injustifies the Means political philosophy that's being taught in our schools today.
	You know, we came up with this book on values clarification that stated to the children, it's okay to lie, it's okay to steal, it's okay to have premarital sex, it's okay to cheat or to kill, if these things are part of your value system and you've clarified these values for yourself.
	The important thing is not what values you choose, but that you have chosen them freely, without coercion of your parents, a spouse, priests, friends, ministers, or social pressure of any kind.
	And that's where we're at today, brother.
	We're no longer a Christian nation.
	The Christians have withdrawn and are in their prayer closets, praying that the rapture gets here before the Antichrist gets here, and they've abandoned the institution.
	At Waco, they played the sounds of squealing, dying rabbits with Gregorian monk chants.
	They pumped the CS gas in, which they admit killed a lot of the children.
	Did they deserve torture?
	Well, they were in the way of accomplishing the goal.
	Sadly, the goal was most important, and humans are second to accomplishing the goal.
	Well, all I know is it was wrong for Joseph Mingala to torture people.
	It was wrong for Fidel Castro to torture.
	It's wrong to torture a black slave to get answers about where the runaways are at.
	This is wrong.
	And I can't understand how my core knows it's wrong.
	Not just psychologically or intellectually, my core tells me it's horrible, Jack.
	And a lot of people are going over to the dark side.
	Well, America was always supposed to be an example to the world.
	And at one time we were, Alex.
	But not today.
	We've adjusted to their morals and their dogma and to their tactics and techniques.
	So we're really no different today than the rest of the world.
	And this is so important because, of course, as the head of the Ford Foundation said in 1954, Rowan Gaither, we're going to be merged together with the rest of the third world nations.
	So our morals,
	Our standards all have to be brought down, Alex, to the same as the heathen out there, and it's been accomplished very well.
	So torture will be a normal process under this new political correct system that we're going under.
	Oh, man.
	And again, I saw law enforcement publications years ago that would go, if somebody's got anthrax and is going to release it and we can torture for the answer, shouldn't we do it?
	Well, the point is, you look at who's behind the anthrax, it's the U.S.
	government.
	Who's behind the terror?
	It's the globalists.
	But the point here is, is that you can't believe the confession that comes out of torture.
	You can't trust a government that will torture.
	That's true.
	If they tortured me, I'd tell them anything but the truth.
	And I think you'd be the same way, Alex.
	And of course, I had a good military friend tell me that the other day.
	They've been in the military for years.
	You can't trust.
	When you torture somebody and get an answer, you don't know that that answer is correct.
	Well, it's like you said.
	It's amazing.
	Jack, you know what?
	Let's pick this back up in the next hour, because we got Mad Cow, we got Bush announcing he wants totally open borders to legalize everybody.
	We've got these generals talking about martial law.
	Was it bone-chilling to you, like it was for me to hear Eberhardt admit we're under extraordinary control level, that we are going under military control, to hear Tommy Frank say that?
	It was shocking.
	You know, Alex, you and I for years have known this is coming, but the closer it gets, as much as we deal with reality every day, it was still shocking to my system when I heard it from their own mouths.
	Well, we'll discuss that.
	And yes, I know we have loaded phones.
	We'll get to your calls, I promise, early in this interview.
	We got Colonel Roberts joining us as well.
	And I know that Jack's going to enjoy being on with him.
	Yeah.
	Both great Americans.
	And we're going to have a debate, I guess, eight minutes into the next hour for about 30 minutes with someone.
	People called in saying that he was having a discussion of torture.
	I said, I might want to talk to him.
	So I guess we're going to talk to him.
	So we'll be right back.
	Stay with us.
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	We're talking to Jack McClam, Police Against the New World Order, and Jack, I have the article right here, Immigration Reform on the Bush Agenda.
	And they call it reform, like campaign finance reform, restricting the First Amendment before elections.
	That's reform.
	Well, see, the word reform has been altered.
	Reform just means to change the form, but we think of it as a good word, and it says here in the Washington Post, total legalization of anyone that can get here.
	You get here, you are made legal.
	Jack McClain, how can they say they're going to micromanage our lives as citizens, but they're going to carte blanche, leave the borders wide open, and let anybody in here?
	Well, it is the number one means of proving that the whole Homeland Security program is a farce, Alex.
	You know, as a law enforcement person from a state who is literally suffering an invasion for the last 20 years into Arizona, I'm disabled today in the line of duty as a law enforcement person in Phoenix by an illegal alien dope smuggler out of Mexico.
	And I've lost seven of my brothers and sisters in uniform in that city, and much of it was due to illegal aliens accessing our nation.
	Uh, in those border states.
	I knew two days ago that Jack Foote and others from Ranch Rescue were fired on on the U.S.
	side by Mexican troops, bullets landing right beside them in the dirt, and, uh, and now it's in Newsmax today.
	We have federal officers being killed, you name it, but there's almost no media attention on this.
	Well, Homeland Security is a farce.
	What it is, is, uh, uh, domestic
	Uh, tyr- uh, tyranny is what it is.
	Domestic tyranny is to put you and me, brother, and our children and grandchildren under a totalitarian system that has nothing to do with security of our nation and our people.
	Absolutely.
	We've got callers that have been holding forever, Jack McClam.
	Let's, uh, go to some of them, and I'm all mixed up here, uh, of who I should go to next.
	Michael in Washington State.
	Go ahead, sir.
	Hello, Alex.
	Happy holidays to you, yours, and the listeners.
	Thank you.
	One thing I wanted to point out to the listeners, somebody put me on a list for GeorgeWBush.com.
	I got an email from him.
	I got kind of upset that I kept getting emails, but I'm a firm believer that every adversity carries with it a seed of equal greater benefit.
	I don't know.
	TV and magazine in your local area.
	Then I started adding all of the real news that I would get from your website and email all these radio stations and TV stations.
	It works wonderful.
	Absolutely, Jeff and William.
	Comments on the forced multiplication of info and on the mad cow.
	Well, brother, I'll tell you, this is amazing.
	Every single day here, praise the Lord, we're hearing from more great patriot Americans like the gentleman just calling in now.
	The people are finally doing something.
	We ask them to do something every day before you lay your head down at night.
	Do something to inform someone, somewhere, about what is going on.
	Give them an Alex Jones videotape.
	Give them a number, how they can dial in on the radios, talk shows, and listen in, or whatever.
	But don't lay down any night without doing something every day.
	And this brother is a perfect example.
	Of a great American in this country today, so I'm just so honored to have him call in, Alex.
	Absolutely.
	Mad Cow.
	Mad Cow is the same program that's been going on now for 30 years to level the United States economically with the rest of the third world nations, which we're coming down to third world nation ourselves.
	Just to destroy our industry manufacturing.
	The beef industry is very important to this nation.
	We don't have much industry left.
	One of our only industries left.
	My family in East Texas survives off this.
	Yes.
	Well, it's coming down, brother, because that's the name of the game.
	That's the program to bring all of us down and bring all of our industry and manufacturing out to India and to Red China and other places.
	And believe us, like they said, in 1954, this World Federalist Organization in Britain stated that America, this is 1954, would be a serviced nation.
	It would service the products of other nations, but it would have no industry and manufacturing.
	And that's exactly what they, 1776 was over that.
	They wouldn't let us manufacture here.
	We were only for raw material.
	That's right.
	So we're going to have the $5 and $6 an hour jobs here for a while, then it'll go down to $5 and $6 a day like other third world nations.
	And the sad part is, Alex, that yes, brothers and sisters are waking up like you call her here and doing something every day that's very important, as God says, to occupy until his return.
	But the vast majority of people are still asleep believing that the man that said... Hang on, we got a break.
	We got a break.
	We'll come back with more calls, more news.
	And Craig Roberts with Jack McClam.
	We're on the march.
	The Empire's on the run.
	Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.
	People often ask me what they can do about what's happening in America.
	And I tell them, what you want to do is tell the most carefully kept secret in America.
	And let people understand that America was founded as a Christian nation.
	It was founded by Christians on Christian principles.
	Now, of course, this is not taught in our schools.
	It's not taught in our seminaries.
	It's not taught in our universities.
	And certainly never mentioned by the controlled media.
	But you can help us to get the truth out about America's Christian heritage by setting up an institute on the Constitution in your home, in your church, in your neighborhood.
	Call the Institute and the Constitution at 410-760-9068.
	That's 410-760-9068.
	And ask about setting up an Institute of the Constitution.
	It's 12 programs.
	Everything's there on the video.
	All you have to do is, of course, get a group together.
	So remember the Institute of the Constitution at 410-760-9068.
	Get involved.
	Help us save America.
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	This is Pat Cooper with 10 reasons to listen to the Tony DelVecchio Show.
	Reason number 10, no one listens to him at home.
	Reason number 9, I don't want to be the only one calling in.
	Reason number 8, think of the rest of the meeting yourself.
	I got a lot of things I gotta do today.
	Like get a job and get paid.
	I don't understand this guy.
	That's all about this with your host, Tony DelVecchio.
	Saturday evenings from 9 to 10 p.m.
	Central Time, right here on the Genesis Communications Radio Network.
	And if you don't listen to his show, you'll have to deal with me.
	Waging war on corruption.
	Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	Harassing the lies and disinformation.
	Monday through Friday from 11 to 2 Central, back from 9 to midnight Central Standard Time.
	Blasting out on the AM and FM dial from Rhode Island to Los Angeles, California.
	Simulcasting on Global Shortwave during the day at 12.172 and 93.20 and back from 9 to midnight at 5.085 and 68.90.
	And before we go back to Jack McClam, we now have Colonel Craig Roberts.
	We're going to have both these guys on with us for the rest of the show.
	We're so honored to have them.
	And we're going to have a Reverend Spivak on who wants to debate about torture.
	On the air, so we'll have him on and let our guest talk to him and get their views on it.
	And we got loaded phones, we'll go to your calls before this hour ends here in the next few minutes.
	Before I go back to our guest in this jam-packed Christmas Eve broadcast, I might as well get the plug out here, didn't do it in the first hour.
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	And we have Frank Morales, who's a police-stead expert, myself.
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	We get into what the New World Order is for the first 25 minutes of the 2 hour 40 minute film.
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	Go to Infowars.com or PrisonPlanet.com.
	Get the videos.
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	This show got unexpectedly jam-packed today with Colonel Craig Roberts and Jack McClam, Police Against the New World Order, and of course, author and lecturer, Vietnam Sniper Craig Roberts.
	I wanted to go over martial law, the militarization of police, the statements by Eberhardt, the head of NORTHCOM about martial law, Tommy Franks, the open borders, the heightened terror alert,
	And we're going to do that, and then the next hour we're going to get into torture, because that's very important.
	Colonel Roberts, it's good to have you on, and to have you on with somebody I know you admire, Jack McClam.
	Good to have you on the show, sir.
	Oh, it's always glad to be back.
	Hello, Brother Jack.
	How you doing?
	Hey, Brother Craig.
	Merry Christmas to you and your family.
	You too.
	We've got to get together for breakfast again soon.
	I want to go to calls and get into the terror alerts and the mad cow and the rest of it.
	You've had some personal experience with that, Colonel Roberts, but right now, in just a minute or two, your synopsis of torture and what it means.
	Okay.
	I've got a different perspective and it's my opinion on it because I've been there and we've been in situations in the military where we're going to have to differentiate
	What is torture and what isn't?
	Because there's a lot of people that put torture in one big basket and said, you can't do any of this stuff.
	And it's just like the environment, you know?
	You can't just blanketly say, this is how we're going to define everything, because it's a little more complicated than that.
	There's a totally different way in prison or treatment and war versus what we would do here in this country.
	So basically, torture to me, in my definition, is something that does physical harm to somebody,
	It is a physical abuse.
	It does physical damage.
	Those things should never be done.
	That's the Stalin-Hitler male decomposition.
	Yeah, but tell somebody we're going to charge you with a death penalty sentence if you don't answer questions.
	That would not be torture.
	Cooperate with us.
	We'll go easy.
	That's negotiation.
	Torture is what Joseph Mengele would do.
	Right.
	And that's been proposed in Iraq.
	I'm against that.
	Right.
	Physical abuse of prisoners always comes back to haunt you in the end.
	Sleep deprivation, denial of privileges, solitary confinement, stuff that we normally would do in a prison system for people that misbehave, would be totally acceptable if it's going to save American lives in a war situation.
	These people don't have the rights that we have under our Constitution, you know, so our military has a little bit more flexibility.
	However, when it gets to the point where you physically injure someone, expect their people to do the same to our prisoners when they capture us, and we don't want that to happen.
	Well, I mean, in Vietnam, they would torture our pilots.
	Absolutely, and we did some bad things in Vietnam, too.
	We had the Phoenix Program, where we would stand there and watch Vietnamese troops torture Viet Cong prisoners with ways that are totally unacceptable and against the rules of land warfare.
	I think so.
	Like in Kosovo and Bosnia and so on where innocent civilians get caught up in this whole thing and then it's just like wildfire.
	Well that's my point is wildfire.
	It's a Pandora's box because you can't trust a government that'll torture.
	You can't trust answers that you get from torture.
	I mean we can't say Saddam's evil, he tortures people.
	Let's torture him.
	Anybody that's a student of history can go back and look at the Inquisition.
	Everybody in the Inquisition could be found guilty after a certain amount of torture.
	Same thing with witches at Salem.
	If you want to dunk somebody long enough, they're going to admit that they're a witch just to get you to quit.
	They'll say anything under torture, so that's valueless information.
	What you really need is a way to convince people to cooperate without having to do things that later on may be used against your own troops if it leaks out that you did this stuff.
	And then what do you say once you've been torturing?
	How do you criticize the other side?
	Well, you can't.
	That's the problem.
	You know, there's only one thing in history that's always held true.
	The winner never gets condemned.
	It's always the loser.
	Jack McClam comments to what Colonel Roberts just said.
	I think there's no question he's right on target because I know that, Alex, you were not speaking of either of things like sleep deprivation and so forth as torture.
	Uh, but we're talking about physically injuring people, threatening and throwing people out of helicopters, you know, because they don't talk.
	And then the other people watching this will talk like crazy.
	I mean, you know, this is not what we do in America.
	I think so.
	FBI crime lab running frauds, Houston crime labs, all these other crime labs, Tulia, Texas, hundreds of examples, modern examples of frame-ups, police torturing people here.
	I mean, you cannot trust an establishment because you're going to get evil people in power that are going to use that torture.
	That's right.
	You have to control your own internal law enforcement mechanisms.
	They can't be controlled for you.
	Once a government has the ability to order its law enforcement agencies or intelligence agencies to do things without any exterior control by the population, then you've lost control.
	It's become a dictatorship and you're going to end up at the wrong end of the stick on the deal.
	That was one of the things that was great about this country when it started out, is the people ran the government.
	Now it's the other way around.
	The government can do anything it wants, but if the people do anything, if you do anything out here, they can bring the might of the government down on you and all the laws they've passed while they themselves ignore them.
	It's selective enforcement.
	Now, you're both students of history, but I've read a lot of history about the Revolutionary War.
	We were known for treating the British soldiers well.
	They would torture and kill us, and that ended up backfiring on the British.
	Am I not correct?
	That's absolutely right.
	Yes, and it's a matter of special operations training.
	That what you do is you go out and you do something that makes the enemy retaliate against the civilian population.
	And when the enemy retaliates against the civilian population, it puts the civilian population automatically on your side.
	Because they turn against your enemy.
	And, you know, we did this in World War II with the French underground.
	They would go out and do stuff that would make the Germans turn around and take a whole village and take the men out and execute them.
	And that would take the whole province and turn it against the Germans in a proactive manner instead of just standing around saying, I hate Germans.
	So, it's just like in this country.
	If you can create a terrorist event and blame somebody for it, then all of a sudden the news media uses this to take the population and turn us against whoever it is they blamed.
	So, at the very beginning of America, in the United States, we were against torture.
	Absolutely.
	But the British did it and it backfired on them.
	Well, where we learned it was the French-Indian War, when the French and the Indians were torturing American prisoners,
	It backfired on them, so when the Revolutionary War came around, most of our troops were pretty careful about not doing that.
	However, we did break a lot of the British rules.
	We shot their officers off horses.
	That was very ungentlemanly.
	We engaged him from the bushes.
	No one ever did that.
	But that's just guerrilla warfare.
	Yeah.
	And so, you know, rules come and go, but what you have to go by is not the rules made by men, but the rules made by God and the morals of what we should be living by.
	And that's the whole thing in a nutshell.
	Well, we can't criticize Joseph Mengele if we start torturing people.
	Right.
	Jack, you agree on the rules of God, right?
	Absolutely.
	We have always meant to be a beacon to the rest of the world of the way people should act towards one another.
	That's biblical, and if we lower ourselves to the animalistic level of our enemies that are heathen many times, then we are no longer a beacon to the world like God expected us to.
	And another thing we should remember is that when we
	I don't
	And we're trying to win the population over to our side.
	By bulldozing their farms?
	Yes, now we're going in and we watch on the news even.
	They show us breaking in the doors and a mother holding her child there in local communities and ramsacking the house and scaring the kids to death.
	Hauling the men outside and putting them under arrest and then go take them away and find out, hey, they weren't part of anything anyway.
	And now you have the population turning against you when you use those type of tactics of torture and inhumane activity.
	Our Pentagon has to know that.
	They're going to let us take the fall and send the U.N.
	in as the savior.
	Do you guys agree with that?
	Well, you know, that's ridiculous.
	No one agrees with that.
	The Pentagon, at the very top levels, historically, since before the Clinton administration, to get your stars and get that high, you had to do time with the CFR, you had to do time with some globalist outfitter, get your blue hat for a while, and agree to the globalist mentality that we should become a nation-state.
	Wesley Clark's from that school.
	I mean, that's the point I'm making is that the Pentagon has to know this is going to backfire.
	Well, yeah, and by using that as a tool, they could, you know, there are probably certain groups that would love that to happen so they could say, see, we can't do it by ourselves.
	The Canadians, you know, they lost the whole parachute regiment in Somalia because of some torture incidents over there where a Somalian kid was killed, and I think they roasted him over a fire or something.
	And it got back to Canada, and the people raised such a ruckus that the 1st Canadian Parachute Regiment was disbanded, and I guess it is to this day.
	And so that's going to be the plan, have us do the bad stuff, then have the U.N.
	come into Iraq playing the part of the good cop.
	Right, and another point I want to make, you know, in the military, let's jump tracks over and look at it from a different point of view.
	It's my job, if I capture an enemy soldier and I'm in charge, to interrogate him.
	That's my mission.
	It's his mission to resist, and I'm supposed to understand that.
	He's not obligated to tell me anything.
	If I can trick him into it, if I can convince him to come over to my side, if I can bribe him into it, this is all perfectly acceptable.
	If he decides to make that choice and give me the information, hey, great.
	But as soon as I lay hands on him, I've crossed the line.
	Because if I'm captured, it's my mission to resist.
	We found out in Vietnam that name, rank, and serial number doesn't cut it anymore in a torture environment.
	Our pilots were told, give them only name, rank, and serial number.
	Well, if you do that, what you've done is you've set up a barrier or a line that once they cross it, they give up totally and give them everything.
	What we do now as we train under our rules, when you capture this, is resist as long as you can.
	When you have to give them information, give them stuff that doesn't matter.
	And by the time it gets around to where you have to give them critical stuff, like where your unit's located or something like that, it's not going to matter anyway because it's going to be obsolete information.
	So resist as long as you can.
	We don't expect you to withstand terrible torture.
	Well, also they found a lot of people under torture will give up people they don't like anyways.
	You know, they'll just go after their enemies.
	Well, they'll do that real quick to try to bargain their way out of it, but it's not going to work.
	Once you start giving information, they're going to want more and more and more.
	Gentlemen, we've got loaded phone lines here, and we've got this little debate coming up, and I hope you guys will have this discussion with this rabbi who I think was saying that
	The torture in some circumstances is okay, but we'll have to hear from him on that.
	But I did want to get into General Eberhardt saying we're under extraordinary threat level, which is really martial law.
	Yeah, we're going to have troops in your daily life.
	Yeah, the Pentagon's watching you in the L.A.
	Times.
	You said that.
	You said it before Congress, the L.A.
	Times reported.
	Now we also have Tommy Franks going, well, I hate to say it, but the next step is military form of government.
	Both of you gentlemen, comments on that.
	Go ahead, Jack.
	Well, Tommy Franks, I'll tell you, yeah, he really hates it all right.
	He's been a globalist since he was born, just about.
	He's been fashioned and brought up to be exactly what he is to help set up this Antichrist world system.
	And he does it very well.
	So he doesn't hate to see this coming.
	This is the goal of the Bush crime family and the Tommy Franks of the world.
	Well, the head of NORTHCOM went further than Franks.
	He said it was good.
	Well, you know... And they believe that.
	They truly believe it.
	They're in power, so anybody under them is where they ought to be, under them.
	So, yes, they think it's good.
	There's two areas in this area, too, that's militarization of the government and the militarization of our law enforcement agencies.
	And if you go to my website, riflewarrior.com, and just scroll down just a couple of inches, you'll see a new link.
	Where I talk about the militarization of our law enforcement agencies down to and including your local sheriffs and police departments.
	And how that's coming about and then hit that link and it'll take you to a little article I wrote and from there you can go to the Cato Institute 26 page article on this stuff.
	I don't agree with everything in the article and I point out what I don't agree with but the problem is over the period of the last 30 years the federal government has been able to get inside of our police agencies with grant programs and late funds and all sorts of things to where now they can pretty much pull the strings and they've convinced our police academies to tell our young officers that what we need is a federal
	National Law Enforcement Task Force.
	And that's what all these alerts are about, is getting us used to that, Jack.
	Yes, that's right.
	Yes.
	What mystifies those police officers and soldiers I'm in communication with is that how well this works.
	I mean, it's incredible that the American people are not, as any size at all, any amount of size at all, resisting this.
	They're actually just
	Feel they're blessed by having our government take such good care of us.
	Amazing, folks.
	Federalization of your local police and everyone's a terrorist.
	We'll be back with your calls.
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	Okay, let's go ahead and go to some of your calls.
	Then a little bit into the next hour, we're going to have this rabbi on who was on his radio show, one of my affiliates, talking about torture.
	And I said, oh, I might want to have a discussion with him.
	And so he's been wanting to do that.
	So we're going to have him on with our guests.
	We'll all have a discussion about it, a debate about it.
	Let's go ahead and go to some calls, Colonel Roberts and of course Jack McClam.
	Colonel Craig Roberts and Jack McClam.
	Jack McClam with Police Against the New World Order.
	He's got a long website.
	Just type Police and Military Against the New World Order into a search engine.
	It'll be one of the first links.
	It's an amazing website.
	We're going to plug all that contact info in the next hour.
	So stay with us, folks.
	Right now, let's go to David in New York.
	David, you're on the air with our guest.
	Go ahead.
	Good to talk to you, David.
	Hi, Craig and hi, Jack.
	How's it going?
	Hello, David.
	Good.
	Hey, the reason I was calling is because lately we've heard some things about Prescott Bush funding Hitler and Rumsfeld funding North Korea, and my question is... That's all documented fact.
	My big question is, how come the Global List would be
	Funding dictators and people that they know they can't, you know, control.
	I mean, how do they... We've heard about funding of the communists by... But they can control them.
	They build up this phony bipolar world, and then set up a police state to counter that imaginary enemy, and then have weapon sales taking them over.
	Jack, Craig, comments?
	Oh, absolutely.
	You know, when they funded Hitler, they were totally in control of Hitler because they controlled all of the funding for the Third Reich through the Reichsbank.
	Uh, the same thing when, uh, during the, uh, uh, you know, they, they funded, uh, uh, the entire Russian Revolution in 1918 and then controlled them afterwards all the way up through Joe Stalin.
	Uh, and when these guys get out of control, what they do is they either kill them off or go to war against them.
	Uh, and they make sure they don't get out of control.
	But see, you have to have an enemy at the gate.
	You have to have some way to fund both sides of a, uh, of a war.
	Uh, and it, it matters not who wins or loses because, uh, both sides are in the debt of the people who fund them.
	It's all about money and power.
	Is this why, um, is this why, you know, when Hitler came to power there had to be a Stalin and then when that whole thing ended, you know, it had to be the U.S.
	against the U.S.S.R.?
	Well, that's it.
	One day he's our buddy, next day he's not.
	Jack, comments.
	Yes, it reminds you of all the statements we have in Operation Vampire Killer 2000 by the money barons of the world, the financial elite of the world.
	Uh, you know, it's along the same line as, uh, Amschel, Bauer, Rothschild, that give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws.
	The same with funding a nation.
	If you can cause war,
	And you fund all sides of the war.
	You control what's going on.
	Because, indeed, if you hold the purse strings, they can't go to war, can't win a war.
	Yeah, that's it.
	I mean, it's like Bin Laden.
	They obey what you tell them to do.
	Bin Laden's the former business associate.
	They fly his family out to safety.
	Saddam Hussein.
	They're arming North Korea with reactors.
	Thank you, David.
	Jay in Colorado.
	You're on the air.
	Go ahead, Jay.
	If they had any information on the chemtrail.
	Because I live in Denver, and I got up this morning, these guys are making X's in this dialogue.
	I'm not sure if it's anything bad, because it's so blatant.
	I know there's a couple of airports around here, but... OK, let me get comments from Jack and Craig on... We know there's admitted spraying in the past.
	Some of this is an aerosol.
	What's your take on what's going on, gentlemen?
	Go ahead, Craig.
	I'd like to hear from a military guy, because it's amazing to me, just the other day again, we had a friend who said, oh, that's just contrails.
	And I, Craig, I just, and Alex, I just can't believe that anybody has been that non-observant throughout their lifetime to know that a contrail disappears in 30 seconds to a minute
	And these things last up there for two hours and come and turn into clouds and come down on top of you.
	Okay, we'll get Craig Roberts, who's a pilot himself, we'll get his take on it when we get back.
	Third hour.
	You do not want to miss this third hour, folks.
	Tell your friends and family to tune in.
	Call them right now.
	We're going to come back, get his answer on that, talk to Jay and Mary and Tom, and then we're going to get our guest, our other guest on with both of our other guests.
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	Big Brother.
	Mainstream media.
	Government cover-ups.
	You want answers?
	Well, so does he.
	He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
	We're going to have a debate about torture coming up here in a few minutes.
	We're going to get more into the martial law preparations.
	The head of the Defense Department saying, you bet your life on it, this is a very serious threat.
	And I have a stack of articles where they admit the White House and Pentagon have put out false terror alerts to, quote, create hysteria and scare us into submission.
	More on Mad Cow, just a ton of other news.
	We're so honored to have Colonel Craig Roberts on with us.
	And of course, Jack McClam, Police and Military Against the New World Order.
	Jam-packed show today.
	Colonel Roberts, the chemtrails.
	I mean, I remember five years ago a jet flew over at 3,000 feet, didn't leave a trail.
	Now they do over Austin.
	Some of the jets won't.
	One right next to it will, leaves a trail, sits there for five hours.
	What is going on?
	Well, the program just on that, and I have, but I didn't believe in the things until about four years ago when I was doing a radio show in
	We're good to go!
	We're good to go!
	For whatever reason, either to get sprayed or to defend us against a biological attack if someone else did it.
	You know, I'm still clueless on that.
	But that barium salts and aluminum dioxide is also very bad for your brain.
	They've tested the fibers and found flu in it.
	Right, you can use anything.
	I mean, once they've got the medium to spray it, and the mechanisms to do it, then you can put anything in the tanks.
	Well, they've been acclimating you up in Oklahoma for months, spraying some telesclopogy
	Under Homeland Security drills?
	Well, it's so bad up here that, Alex, we don't have to worry about global warming because we've always got a cloud bank over us now.
	And it always settles down into a fog, you know?
	I mean, we feel... By the way, NASA, at the Goddard Center, just said the Earth is now 20% darker with all these bizarre cloud banks.
	Well, and I wonder where they came from.
	But the bottom line is, we've traced down some of these airplanes to Arizona, where they originate out of a place called Marana.
	And there's one of them that came over and had a pine tree painted on its tail.
	Anybody that's been in the intelligence area knows where that came from.
	But the bottom line is they are out there.
	They are spraying stuff that is not a contrail.
	And I've had military tanker pilots tell me that, hey, that's not us.
	I don't know what you're talking about.
	No one's doing that.
	And I'd turn around and show them the pictures that we've taken and the videotape that we've taken of it, and they're going, gee, I've never seen that.
	I don't know what that is, but that's not us.
	So it's not Air Force units because you couldn't keep those guys quiet.
	I've been assigned to those guys before and worked with them, and they're not going to keep quiet about it.
	So it's civilian contractors flying military-type tankers and civilian aircraft that have been modified.
	Well, I was down with my family in Phoenix.
	I'd left the Rocky Mountains up here where we were being sprayed pretty well and went down to Phoenix and they were being sprayed.
	And a few days later, my sons and I were down in Mexico diving and they were spraying down there.
	I'm telling you, I cannot understand the billions of dollars a day.
	And when I went to Australia and New Zealand, they were spraying down there, brothers.
	The billions of dollars a day being put out for equipment and for chemicals and for manpower, who can afford this if they're not just cranking up the printing presses?
	I got email from England from two people over there that sent me an email wanting to know what I know about it because they were getting sprayed in England now.
	Yeah, it's worldwide and over these years that I've watched this I'm beginning to believe as I'm watching and hearing from people as the
	Yep, a resonance pattern.
	We'll be back to have our debate and take your phone calls.
	Everybody stay with us.
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	Big Brother.
	Mainstream media.
	Government cover-ups.
	You want answers?
	Well, so does he.
	He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	And now, live from Austin, Texas,
	Alex Jones.
	All right, folks.
	It's Christmas Eve.
	It's the 24th of December, 2003.
	We're talking to Colonel Craig Roberts, who's a Marine Corps sniper in Vietnam.
	Colonel,
	In the Army, worked in Army Intelligence on the SWAT team, flew helicopters for Major Police Department.
	He's an expert on the New World Order.
	We have another great American, Jack McClam, who is also a veteran himself, and of course, the most highly decorated police officer in Phoenix, Arizona history.
	He taught at the Police Academy as well, was wounded in the line of duty, you name it.
	He's been speaking out for 20 plus years against the New World Order.
	And I had them both coming on the show today, and then I started getting some calls on air from Monday's show,
	A couple of callers called in and said there's this Rabbi, Yaakov Spivak, who's on one of your affiliates, a fine affiliate, 1360, on the flagship station of the
	America Freedom Network who is saying in some cases torture might be okay and I said well I don't know if he said that I don't know who the guy is but I might want to have him on the air and debate that and discuss that I was pretty congenial about it and supposedly my office has been getting some calls but I my staff's been out because they're well one of my people's on the vacation so I haven't been checking the messages and so I got a call on air though well you know this you know folks want to debate you so I said hey well let's let's get in touch with him right now
	And to have him on, but I don't even know what his views are yet, because I've never heard him on the radio, don't know anything about him.
	So now we're going to find out, and we can all have a discussion.
	Colonel Roberts and Jack McClam, Alex Jones, and Yakko Spivak, the rabbi.
	And Yakko, good to have you on the show today.
	How are you, Alex?
	I'm good.
	Tell us exactly, just so I know, what your views are, because I don't want to just keep hearing it from listeners.
	I'd like to hear it from you.
	Well, what I said on the air was that there is a scenario in which Saddam Hussein knew where a hundred American boys and girls in uniform would be blown up by a bomb, and he said he wasn't going to tell us.
	And there was no other way to get that information out of him except to torture him.
	So, I said if there was no other way, then we would have to do it, and in such a case, then we would have to go ahead and do it that way in order to save those boys and girls.
	Well, Rabbi, look, I've seen the law enforcement publications for years.
	This is the
	This is the psychological program they use of, oh, somebody's about to release smallpox or anthrax.
	We can torture them.
	The answer is, let's torture.
	But then I look at the bigger, global umbrella.
	This is the group that's creating the Saddams, that's funding the Stalins, that the School of America's teaching.
	The
	Not okay.
	Now to tell somebody, if this bomb goes off and you're involved, you're going to be charged with a death penalty, and you're going to be executed, you better talk.
	We'll go easy on you.
	That's one thing, and that statistically, and I've heard the experts on this, will get answers better than pulling somebody's teeth out with pliers.
	I have absolutely no idea what you just said.
	I just told you what my scenario was.
	And I want to get at least three words in before you're next.
	And I told you what my scenario was.
	I can back it up biblically, because I heard that someone said that scripture doesn't allow it.
	And, you know, the case is simple.
	They've just blown up today the Sheraton Hotel in Baghdad, I'm sure you've heard.
	Uh, and there's a pilot, there was just a plane that was cancelled from coming in from outside of America.
	To land, I believe, in LAX.
	Rabbi, Rabbi, Rabbi, you just said three words, but about fifty, but the point is, here is, I believe the military-industrial complex carried out September 11th, and I have the evidence of that, so you've got people who've been caught putting out fake terror alerts, you've got people who've been caught saying we need terrorist attacks to get the people behind this, and I'm saying look at it all in context.
	I guess you think
	Do you think that the Globalists weren't involved in 9-11?
	Mr. Jones, you invited me on your program because of a one statement that I made.
	I'm trying to stick to it, and you're giving me a hard time about that, but I like to stick to the statement.
	But that's a classic tactic I get from people.
	Not a classic tactic, it's basic logic that when someone... Basic logic.
	You ask a person a question, that then when you start to go on to other topics, the person can't answer the question.
	Okay, how can we say Saddam Hussein is evil because he tortured people if we're having discussions of torturing him?
	The reason that I was asked on this program was because I said that if there was only one way to save American boys and girls in uniform, to find out where he had that particular bomb that was to torture him, I said scripturally it would be required.
	I'll let you go over that, Rabbi Spivak, Yaakov Spivak, but my point here is
	Well, there are times.
	When torture is permitted.
	I would like to explain it to you.
	I'm a military veteran as Craig is.
	We've seen it from that side, and I've seen torture in my career, and I've always understood that if, and this has happened where I had brother officers threatened with death, and we were asked to do certain things, and
	We refused to do it, to save the lives of our fellow police officers out there, because it was suggested that this might happen if we don't do these things.
	And I don't believe we were wrong.
	It didn't happen.
	Those scenarios didn't happen, praise God.
	But there has to be a line drawn between the civilized people of the world and those that are not civilized.
	And I think the American people, from the beginning of this nation, chose the right side of not getting into torture.
	And it's worked very well for us over these years to be the example for the rest of the world.
	Well, take the warping of the German people.
	It began with, you know, small things and then led into the horrors.
	Colonel Roberts, any comments?
	Well, you know, like we said earlier, and I don't know if the rabbi heard it, I don't know if he was listening on the radio or not, but, you know, my stand on it from the military aspect is, you know, war is different than
	civilian life here.
	There is no Fifth Amendment for prisoners overseas.
	They do have the right to incriminate themselves, so to speak.
	And there's a big difference between coercion and bribing, deprivation of rights and privileges, psychological leverage, whatever it takes to get information short of physical abuse.
	Once we cross the line into physical abuse, then what we've done is we've done the same thing the enemy has and we're no better than they are and it can come back to haunt us because should a prisoner escape or be let loose and go back and say, look what the Americans did to me,
	Then all of a sudden, if they've got any of our prisoners, they're going to do worse.
	So that's a very fine line right there, and one we shouldn't cross.
	Well, I mean, that's the argument of Fidel Castro and of people like Saddam is, well, these evil Shiites are going to take over if we don't torture them to get the answers.
	Rabbi, go ahead.
	Let me give you another scenario, Alex.
	Suppose you were to step onto a plane tomorrow, and
	Uh, all of the safeguards on that plane were not enough.
	And NORAD stood down for an hour and 25 minutes and warned public officials not to fly again?
	Well, you want to continue the scenario, go ahead.
	Well, no, I mean, come on!
	Let me, let me, let me, let me just say what I want to say.
	Okay.
	And you were, you were on the, um, you were on the plane
	Uh, and one of the hijackers was from Al-Qaeda, came in, shot the pilot, set the plane to automatic pilot for the House of Representatives.
	The Congresses evidently had them, came out, locked the door.
	Put a combination lock on it and said, I'm not going to let you get in there to try to move the plane away from that.
	You're all going to die.
	You're going to kill the people and the Congress.
	And the only way to get that information about that combination lock
	Would be to torture him.
	What would you do, Alex?
	Well, let me answer the question.
	Number one, they wouldn't come out and say, we're going to do this, because that's not what they do.
	Number two, somebody who's about to kill themselves isn't going to answer your questions under any level of torture.
	It takes weeks to break people like that.
	And number three, I believe the military industrial complex carried out Operation Northwoods on September 11th.
	Colonel and Jack?
	Well, yeah, let me hit that, because I know where the rabbi's coming from on this one.
	I'm coming in a little bit different angle.
	I have to agree with some of what he's saying, too, in the sense that that airplane now becomes a battle zone.
	You are in combat at that time to save your lives, the lives of the passengers, and the target destination.
	Obviously, the airplane can't be set on automatic pilot for a given place like that.
	Being a pilot, I know this, but given a scenario that says it could,
	Yeah, I'd take this guy down and I would beat him senseless if I thought I could save our lives and get in the cockpit, but that is a battle that has just been engaged at that point.
	Yeah, but Craig, now we're in the war on terror every day, is that?
	That's what they're telling the police.
	Well, there's a difference between having a prisoner for a long period of time, in which, you know, you've got this guy, he's not going anyplace, there's no imminent danger right then.
	He may know stuff that you want to know,
	We can work on that without having to physically abuse him, which they would in turn do to our prisoners.
	It's a different scenario.
	But what the Rabbi just outlined, yeah, I think anybody would be...
	Uh, uh, uh, authorized to defend yourself just like the same way, you know, if, if, if your wife gets attacked at the mall.
	See, but Craig, Craig, Craig, that's the moral, uh, I mean, that's right out of the handbook, though.
	That's what they're telling the police and the military as they legitimize it full scale.
	You've just opened Pandora's box.
	Let me take it one step further, if I may.
	Well, we got a break.
	Sure.
	Well, you can go one step further when we get back and we'll get Jack McClam's comment on this because, no, we're not going to open that Pandora's box, folks.
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	He's the T-Rex of political talk.
	Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	Dozens of major crime labs, including the FBI crime lab, the Houston crime lab, the Chicago crime lab, have been caught framing people on an industrial scale.
	All the time, police get caught torturing suspects.
	Police, it turns out, that are drug dealers themselves.
	Think of the teams out in LA.
	And once you open this box, we're hearing this argument in the sitcoms, and the dramas, and on the news, and the heroes torture people to get the answers, to save everybody, while we've got a torturing to save New York, or to save whatever.
	Again, it's being sold to us.
	and uh... it's it's amazing and now we are discussions of mass roundup camps and major publications and martial law but it's to save us it's to keep us safe uh... we're gonna go back to the rabbi here in a second but i want to get jack mcclamb to be able to give us his take on what the rabbi's been saying go ahead well the rabbi gives us a scenario that i would imagine uh... this is a fight or flight scenario it's a uh... imminent
	I don't think so.
	Probably 100% would have said, fine, let's do it now.
	That's not saying that we should have a government policy where it's okay to torture people.
	That's a whole different scenario.
	I never implied that.
	Hold on a second, Rabbi.
	It's like struggling with somebody to get the keys away from them.
	That's a fight right there, but that's the argument being sold to institutionalize torture and there is an attempt to do this.
	Go ahead, Rabbi.
	All right, let me just base it in Scripture one moment.
	First, just give me two minutes here.
	Number one, Scripture says that if you find, and people will find that, Exodus 22.1, that says that if a robber comes into your basement,
	Uh, you're allowed to kill him.
	You're allowed to do anything else to save your life, including torture, as implied by that, because of the fact that the, that the, that the robber under, under scripture law is called Agabra Katila.
	He's a dead man walking, because he knows you're gonna kill him.
	Why would you torture somebody when you were just defending yourself?
	Well, if you can kill him, okay?
	No, no, it doesn't work.
	Yes.
	You have the right to do anything you can to prevent that person from killing.
	That person is called a Rodef in Hebrew, which means a pursuer.
	And in these cases that I described of Saddam Hussein, he is about to kill somebody else.
	And scripture, in scripture, Leviticus 19, 16 says, you shall not stand idly by your brothers, but gives you the right to save that man's life.
	Saddam Hussein was stuck down in a little
	Spider hole, now it's coming out and been captured by the Kurds for weeks.
	And so your scenario again, which is let's just think about torture.
	And then you're sitting there saying, oh, robbers in your house.
	It says you can torture them.
	What you just read didn't say torture.
	It said defend yourself.
	It said defend yourself.
	And there were two issues here.
	The first issue is on a personal level, you're allowed to kill someone if they're threatening you.
	And the second issue is you're allowed to kill someone who's going to kill someone else.
	And if it takes killing, you're allowed to do, fine.
	If it takes torture, you're allowed to do it, fine.
	Killing someone else to prevent... And see for you, it's not just... From killing person C, you are allowed to torture person B, and that is the right of the scripture and the Judeo-Christian ethic.
	Wait a minute, I always hear people say that Al-Qaeda's evil, they torture people.
	But I guess they're evil, so their torture's bad.
	Our torture would be good.
	The Bible, which is a source of ethics for man, says
	You are required to stop person B from killing person C. And if you don't do it, you have a certain responsibility.
	This smoky secret government agency that can go out and torture people.
	Did I mention anything about the government?
	I narrowed my scenario to the parameters which I have defined and you're taking it somewhere that I never even mentioned.
	Ending the government torturing Saddam, that's who'd do it.
	I said, because of a direct situation, a person be trying to kill a hundred other people.
	That's the scenario, okay?
	Let me get a comment here.
	I mean, look, overall, it's opening Pandora's box here, folks.
	And this is the argument that we've heard throughout history, and I believe from the scriptures you read, you're taking that out of context and deriving things, going, it's inferred.
	Gentlemen, any comments?
	Well, as a law enforcement person, I mean, it is such a reach what the rabbi says here in the scriptures about self-defense being allowing torturing.
	I can see me as an officer going into a house and a lady has been accosted by a burglar and I come in and to defend herself, she cut him up in little inch pieces and has him on the table laid out there.
	I mean, that's, you know, you open a box like this.
	Yeah, you become them.
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	Folks, we have a government that's engaged in 50 million abortions.
	We have a government that frames people, that puts viruses in the vaccines.
	We have a government that's tested chemical and biologicals on our troops, lets them breathe depleted uranium by the thousands.
	Their own side just admits it's killing them.
	They could care less about the troops, okay?
	So you've got to look at this all in total.
	You cannot have this government coming in with any type of torture system.
	Now certainly, as Colonel Roberts said,
	And I agree with the rabbi that this magic scenario happened where the plane was on remote control and you had to make the guy do something.
	That is fight or flight.
	That is combat.
	But see, the argument is we've got a war on drugs.
	That's why you don't have any rights.
	A war on terror.
	See, that's why the rights don't exist.
	Oh, see, we are at war.
	It is a war scenario.
	This is the argument.
	Now look at those pushing.
	And I'm not talking about the rabbi, Yaakov Spivak.
	I'm talking about the New World Order crowd that I see on the news giggling and laughing about torture and how wonderful it is.
	We become the Saddam Hussein.
	We become the Joseph Mengele.
	I want to get into some other news and a bunch of calls, and I want Colonel Roberts and Jack McClann to be able to plug the great stuff they have to offer, the videos, the books, all of it, the newsletters.
	And I want to get to some of this other news, more on the mad cow, the martial law news, all of it, and the callers, Mary and Tom and Spencer and others have been holding for an hour.
	Uh, but, uh, real quick, Jack McClam, finish up what you were saying, then Colonel Roberts, then I'm gonna let the Rabbi have a few comments, and then Pastor Butch Paul on this network has some comments about scripture.
	Uh, we're gonna bring him up last and let our guests go.
	Uh, but, uh, go ahead, Jack McClam, finish what you were saying, because that's, that's what I was thinking of.
	It's like, you come in,
	This man tried to rape this woman, or robber, and she's got him on the rack, breaking his back.
	She's committing a crime greater than his robbery.
	You can kill him to defend yourself, but you don't put him down in the basement as your slave or whatever, because they're the walking dead.
	They're no longer human.
	Go ahead, Jack McClam.
	Yes, the Bible, you can't equate the biblical right to self-defense with torture.
	You know, the Bible does not say anywhere that in self-defense you have a right to torture people to death, or torture them near death even.
	And so, I think that if we go that way in our society, we are no different than the heathen out there.
	And that's the truth.
	The scenario is, if we accept that, then that little lady who's been burgled
	And is in fear of her life, can do anything she wants to to that guy because she's in fear of her life.
	Well, I go back to what the Italian head of the Federal Police said in the seventies when communists rebrigaded, kidnapped the president.
	And they said, let's torture him.
	And he said, no, we can handle the loss of the president.
	We cannot handle introducing torture in Italy.
	Amen.
	That's right.
	Colonel Roberts, comments on this subject?
	Well, I think, you know, it goes back to
	Well, look, there's precedent
	And there's precedent, biblically, to say you come clean about what you know right now will go easy on you.
	You don't physically do it, but you go, if you don't, you're going to have the blood on your hands and we're going to execute you.
	Well, let me give you another scenario.
	You know that the Muslims are terrified of pigs.
	And if you have a prisoner there and you parade a pig around out there and you have somebody digging a hole in the ground and you walk up to the guy and you say, you know what?
	If you make the Colonel mad, there's a good possibility that they're going to end up having to shoot you and throw you in the hole with that pig and you're going to go to hell and burn for eternity.
	That guy's going to start talking.
	You haven't done anything.
	You haven't laid a hand on him, but that's coercing him into something.
	Is that torture?
	I don't think so.
	I think that's psychological.
	Uh, operations on being able to get information at him.
	But if you take this guy out and you beat him to a pulp and then cut a pig open and throw it on him, that's gone too far.
	You've actually carried out something that is physical abuse.
	Rabbi, we've been so honored to have you on.
	You've got some final comments here and then I want to bring Pastor Butch up real quick to talk to you.
	What I meant, Alex, by the fact that finding a robber in your basement, you could do two things.
	You could either shoot him through the head and kill him, or you could hit him with a baseball bat and he'd have torture in his brain all his life.
	So that's a scenario that I think one could consider.
	However, what I'm saying is you have guests on your program today that were given
	Given weapons to defend their country, to defend their city as law enforcement officials.
	Sometimes if they use that weapon, if they don't use the weapon when they should have, they could be brought up on charges.
	And sometimes when they use the weapon when they shouldn't have, they should be brought up on charges.
	So we give them a weapon because we're reasonable people and we can delineate reasonable rules and regulations without having to come on to paranoid pictorials.
	Well, we're in tyranny right now, and we're losing our freedoms.
	There's no question that the government is pushing, taking away our freedoms.
	You and I do not argue about that.
	The Patriot Act makes me uneasy as well, too.
	And as a Jew, I know my relatives that came from
	We're good to go.
	I'm talking about the souls of the people that are going to be doing the torture.
	I'm talking about the soul of our nation.
	Let's bring, and I'm going to put our other guests on hold because we can't have five people up at once.
	I'm going to put Craig and Jack on hold for just a few minutes.
	Pastor Butch, Paul, you're on the air.
	How you doing?
	Fine.
	I won't stay on long.
	I just had a comment on this.
	I have been preaching the gospel of Christ for 27, 28 years, and the Bible is my life.
	With all due respect to the rabbi, I have never heard such a twisting of the scriptures in my life to stretch it to the point where you can go on to prove what he has to say.
	That's the most absurd statement I've ever heard, to take those two scriptures.
	I've preached them many times in the light of self-defense or defense of others.
	There is no biblical ground
	And I will state that equivocally, no questions, no way to get around this.
	There's no grounds for torture.
	There's none.
	If there were, then when they tortured the disciples, when they tortured Christ, then they were doing absolutely right, obviously, because there's nothing wrong with torture.
	And you and I both know, as anyone who knows the Scriptures knows, that the torture is absolutely ungodly, and we'll send the torture to hell for doing that job.
	Well, in fact, if I can comment on this, I respectfully disagree with the Revenant as one who, as a rabbi who has studied the scripture in its original in Hebrew, and understand the nuances, instead of waiting for it to be translated into English, I can say unequivocally that if somebody is trying to kill another person,
	That the scripture will hold you responsible if you don't do anything and everything to prevent person B from killing person C, including torture, and not only do I say it is permitted, I say it is required.
	That's where we disagree.
	I agree 100%.
	By the way, I also study Greek and Hebrew, the background, I study it deeply.
	Let me ask you one question, Reverend.
	If you saw one person, under the scenario that I have described, that the only way to save those American boys and girls in uniform was to torture the information out of
	Out of Saddam Hussein, you were telling me you wouldn't do it.
	Is that right?
	Stop right there.
	Look, I'm going to explain this.
	I've got to make some comments here.
	It is a Pandora's box.
	You become Saddam Hussein the moment you start pulling his toenails and fingernails out.
	You can't trust a system that will torture or the information you get from the torture.
	You'll have to accept Joseph Mingala and Joseph Stalin as good guys if you do that.
	And reasonable men can see the difference between Joseph Mingle and Justice Brandeis.
	Reasonable people can't.
	You can't throw away a right for a person to exist and survive because you're afraid maybe, maybe, maybe something's going to happen.
	That's not the way America works.
	You cannot stoop to the level of a heathen to bring any justice.
	No, Reverend, then I'm saying you would not torture, you would let those boys and you girls die rather than torture Saddam Hussein.
	Yes, sir.
	We murder 4,000 babies a day.
	Hold on a second.
	Hold on.
	One at a time.
	Go ahead.
	We murder 4,000 babies a day by pure torture.
	Are you out torturing people to stop that?
	No.
	So if you want to defend the unborn, don't tell me how you defend those who walk the street.
	First of all, your assumption is that I'm pro-abortion.
	No, no, no.
	Reverend, would you just answer my question so that our audience can understand where you're coming from?
	Absolutely.
	Would you or would you not let those boys and girls in uniform die under the scenario that I have described?
	I would never.
	That's exactly right.
	I totally disagree.
	Absolutely.
	You become the beast that you're trying to kill and that will take you to hell.
	You become a merciful person who won't let good boys and girls die.
	You can't put the ring on to defeat the system.
	You cannot defeat the beast with the ring.
	What you are saying, Alex, is that this murderer of children, Saddam Hussein, has more right to exist than our boys and girls in uniform.
	How could you say something like that?
	Rabbi, Rabbi, you have to have this, you have to have discernment and knowledge of the whole to make the decision.
	Let me finish, let me finish.
	Sir, let me just finish and then I'll let you have the last word.
	Thank you, Pastor Butch.
	Let me just make this point here.
	Saddam Hussein was the fist of the New World Order in that region.
	They put him in power.
	They told him to attack Iran.
	They told him to go ahead and go into Kuwait.
	They trained his Republican Guard at Fort Benning, Georgia, in torture.
	So to sit there and to say, let's torture Saddam, but let's not punish those that empowered him is, again, you're not looking at the big picture.
	From your position, you would let those boys and girls die and let Saddam live?
	I would stop torturing them with depleted uranium.
	And again, you have this, you have this, you know, this, oh, let's eat the apple here.
	You know, we've got to do this to stop it.
	You've got a hypothetical scenario.
	You understand?
	But this scenario happens every day.
	When they bombed the Sheraton Hotel today, Alex, when they bombed that Sheraton Hotel, somebody in the upper echelons knew about it.
	And if we could have gotten to them, we would have saved lives.
	Saddam didn't even have a radio.
	You think he was running this?
	Saddam had much information on him and there is information out there that says that he was controlling it.
	Rabbi, hey listen, I want to have you back up in a month or so to have this debate again and I appreciate you coming on.
	Thank you for having me.
	The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and we become that which we fight when we step into the darkness, and I think you're wrong, but I appreciate you coming on to defend your ideas.
	Thank you for defending yours, or trying to.
	I appreciate it.
	I defended them quite successfully, don't worry.
	I'll be getting calls for weeks on this agreeing with me.
	Let's go back to Jack McClam for a final comment, and Craig Roberts, go ahead.
	I think Pastor Butch Paul said it right.
	It is never good to do evil to do good.
	You know, that's something we must always remember because we see this happening in other nations where nations have been under a different belief system, not a Christian system, believe it's good to do evil if your goal is good.
	This is the epitome of the system we've now adopted in the United States.
	The end justifies the means.
	And it is wrong for a Christian America, but it is absolutely correct for the kind of nation we're becoming.
	And that's a barbaric nation that will have a totalitarian world system.
	Well, I mean, Bush's point about, are we going to torture the abortionists because of what they're doing?
	Well, let's look at this, too.
	Old Bush is always saying, well, they had rape centers down there, and Saddam had these rape rooms.
	Well, what's wrong with that if we're going to say torture is okay?
	Why not rape the women to get the answers out of them?
	That's what Saddam, he at least has alleged that he's been doing.
	Yeah, Craig, comments?
	Well, anytime you buy a ticket on the Devil's Train, you expect to go to one destination only, and it's going to be one you don't like.
	It's always downhill.
	Once you start using physical abuse, going back to Leviticus, if you go to Leviticus, there's a hundred things in there that's a death sentence.
	But there's nothing in there about torturing anybody.
	In fact, Jesus was against torture when he talked about the people piling the stones on the prostitute and stoning people.
	Stoning is a form of execution, but it was torture because it took so long.
	And he was against those things.
	It's kind of a gray area.
	There's not a black and white answer when it comes to crossing that line.
	You either do it or you don't do it.
	And like Brother Jack said, you cross that line one time, it's almost a one-way door.
	How do you get back from it?
	And we just don't want to go there as a nation because, like you say, you can't put the ring on to fight evil when the ring is evil itself.
	That's it, Timmy.
	You put that ring on, folks.
	You become it instantly.
	Let's take a few calls.
	Let's talk to Mary in Oklahoma.
	Mary, you're on the air.
	Go ahead.
	Thank you for holding.
	I think this whole torture thing, you know, in regards to Saddam Hussein and the evil people in Iraq is that it's supposed to make every single person in Europe hate us.
	Because, you know, they get all the... They see all the bad things that we're doing.
	Just to make the UN look good, exactly.
	I'll tell you, she's very brilliant to think of that, because she's absolutely right.
	Well, I look at it differently.
	The Europeans already hate us.
	I'm not too worried about the Europeans.
	What I'm worried about is the American citizens, and I'm also worried about the enemy.
	Because what happens when the word gets out that we tortured some Muslim suspect,
	And then an American soldier disappears from walking down the street some night and we get him back in little pieces outside the main gate the next morning.
	We don't want that to happen.
	And then we can't say they're bad.
	We don't want to give them any excuses to do to us any type of torture stuff either.
	If they're going to do it, let's don't instigate it.
	Brother Craig, you're right on because how can we then say that what they did to our brother was wrong when we're doing it ourselves?
	Absolutely.
	Folks, it's simple and it shows how far we've gone.
	Americans a decade ago would all tell you torture was wrong.
	Now they've made it so chic and fashionable that it's twisting good people's minds.
	I'm telling you folks, it's so sick.
	It's just... Thank you, Mary.
	We'll come back and talk to Tom and Spencer and plug you guys' contact info, Colonel Roberts and Jack McClam.
	An amazing, an amazing show today.
	Rumsfeld says, you know, bet your life on it, it's the biggest threat ever.
	And then I look at the evidence of who's carrying out the terror, I look at who's pushing torture from the establishment, and it's very, very serious.
	Very.
	Very.
	Serious.
	And Pandora's box is already open.
	This is upon us now, not next week, not next year.
	And the moral people of America had better say no to torture.
	We'll be right back after this quick break with our guest, a couple more calls and some key contact info.
	I'll tell you how to get my videos too, so get ready for that.
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	Two weeks after 9-11 in 2001, the Associated Press did a poll in New York.
	And the majority of women, 60 plus percent, were for torture, for putting all the Arabs in concentration camps.
	It said concentration camps.
	It was like 35 percent of men.
	And so the globalists carry out these attacks, get us so scared, and now camps, torture, all this.
	They start putting it into the group consciousness, this is the solution, this will keep you safe, we must do this.
	Well, it's the globalists doing it all to begin with, creating the Saddam's, creating the Bin Laden's, giving the nuclear reactors in North Korea.
	Before we go to Tom in Iowa, and that'll be the last caller,
	I do want to encourage everybody to get 9-11 Road to Tyranny, Masters of Terror, Police States, Retotal Enslavement, my new film Matrix of Evil that has Colonel Roberts in it by the way.
	Let me get you a copy of that, Craig.
	Everybody needs to get these videos.
	They're over two hours long apiece.
	$25.95.
	Order three or more, they drop down to $20.
	Your purchase also makes this show possible.
	The films are waking people up.
	Call right now.
	Don't wait.
	Get these videos.
	1-888-253-3139.
	That's 888-253-3139 or PrisonPlanet.com or InfoWars.com.
	Or write to me, Alex Jones at 3001 South Lamar, Suite 100, Austin, Texas 78704.
	Now, Colonel Roberts' website is RifleWarrior.com.
	And you can get to Jack McClam's amazing website as well by just typing into his search engine, Police and Military Against the New World Order.
	Now, what was that, Mark?
	Okay, thank you.
	He was telling me about some callers hanging up.
	Folks, it is so important to go to their websites to get their information.
	It's amazing stuff.
	I want to cram this last caller in, but Craig Roberts, Jack McClam, plug your contact info, your books, your videos.
	We've got a new book coming out, by the way, this spring, Alex, to follow up One Shot, One Kill.
	You'll like it.
	It's called Crosshairs on the Kill Zone.
	Got a new cover posted on the webpage.
	You'll see it.
	I'm not handling it, but you can get it at any bookstore.
	Well, brother, it's the same old thing.
	Twenty-three years now, our volunteer police and soldiers here have been trying to awaken our brothers and sisters in uniform.
	So, if you have family members or friends that
	Wear a uniform today.
	We want to talk to them.
	We want to send them our publication on constitutional issues like we're talking about today.
	It's amazing.
	How do folks get it?
	Get a hold of us at, you can call us at 208-935-7852.
	That's 208-935-7852.
	Or either go to our website, Police and Military Against the New World Order.
	Just put it in the search engine and you'll find it there.
	Alright, let's take a final call.
	Tom in Iowa, thanks for holding your RTL gunner.
	Go ahead.
	Alex, how you doing?
	Hello to your guests.
	Good.
	I just want to say I'm a devout Christian.
	Our country is founded on Christianity, not on a Jewish person.
	All that is an old law.
	When Jesus came, everything changed.
	Jesus told you to turn the other cheek, not to strike the man.
	The country was founded under the Constitution, under the new law of Jesus Christ, not the Jew.
	That's all my comment I have to say.
	Well, thank you, but he also said he didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.
	And you should defend yourself, you know, sell your cloak, buy a sword.
	But yes, it takes discernment when to turn the cheek, when to not do that.
	Gentlemen, final comments to what he just said.
	Well, we do have a right to self-defense, but not to torture the person that's coming against us.
	That's the way I believe, and I believe Craig put it right.
	We're not talking about sleep deprivation and things like that.
	We're talking about physical torture that America should not be a part of.
	Craig, final comments?
	I hoped we would get to Mad Cow, but evidently we're going to run out of time today, Alex, but yes to our deaths.
	You know, this has been a great show.
	How about I have you both up for an hour next week and we get into Mad Cow and the police state?
	Give it to me.
	We'll do it, Jack.
	Let's come back and do it again.
	Sounds good, brother.
	All right, gentlemen, you know I love you both.
	You're doing a great job.
	Keep it up.
	I'm out of time.
	Back tonight, 9 to midnight.
	Back tomorrow, 11 to 2.
	Back on Friday, 11 to 2, 9 to midnight.
	Have a wonderful holiday.
	There, I'm not politically incorrect now.
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