Filename: 20060823_Wed_Alex.mp3
Air Date: Aug. 23, 2006 2309 lines.
Time
Text
Big Brother.
Mainstream media.
Government cover-ups.
You want answers?
Well, so does he.
He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
Music
Alright, welcome ladies and gentlemen.
We are now into the third hour.
Yesterday, while I was on air, my producer walked in and handed me an article titled, 9-11 Bush Bashers.
And it said, after debating these characters extensively, I believe people need to know who they really are.
And he's
Jonathan Mosley, and I think people should know who he is, and he has the courage to come on and face us today.
He told me he appreciated my courage having him on.
Hey, a man on the right doesn't have to have courage.
He just is right, and that's the way it is.
He says in here that Professor Stephen Jones, and we've reviewed the tape.
Maybe he's watching something different we haven't seen.
We haven't found it.
Hi, how are you doing?
Your association with the publishing company that put out the Swift Captain book for us?
Can you tell us about that?
Well, yeah, I wrote the book proposal for Command to get that published because it's actually owned by my brother-in-law.
One of his authors was Barbara Olson, who was killed at the Pentagon on Flight 77.
The Solicitor General's wife, yeah.
Right.
And, you know, I went to her funeral.
With Ted Olson and his family.
That's a good move, personalizing it.
Personalize it as if it's with your argument than implying... In fact, that's how you open your article, Crafty.
It says in here that we profane the memory of the 3,000 victims.
Go ahead, you have the floor.
Tell us how we profane their memory.
Because we have a foreign enemy who has attacked us and has been attacking us since 1979 and hit the World Trade Center in 1993 and tells us they want to kill us again and again.
You think?
Well, I mean, let's start with that.
Well, let's start with that, sir.
Jonathan?
You say that it's Bush bashers, and then you talk about how it's liberals.
Did you know that actually, I've looked at it, most people that believe 9-11 is an inside job are actually conservatives?
Well, most people I've talked to, I would have a hard time believing that, because the argument invariably degenerates.
Well, but see, Bush is no conservative, sir.
So, see, I mean, out of the gates you're claiming he's a conservative when by every yardstick he's not a conservative.
Well, that could be.
The issue here isn't whether it's okay to bash Bush or not.
My point is that they're certainly not looking for the truth.
The whole movement here is we want to know the truth about 9-11.
My argument is no, you don't.
Because you go from questions to conclusions without anything in between.
And because you keep changing your story.
Mr. Mosley, you can go out and find crazy people that think no planes hit the towers and then try to strawman claim them that we, quote, keep changing our story.
I haven't changed my story from before 9-11.
And I asked you yesterday, I said, have you heard of Operation Northwoods?
And you said that you had heard me talk about it, but that you didn't know about it.
I mean, shouldn't you go find out if my claim about an official U.S.
government document to carry out 9-11 style attacks...
Shouldn't you go find out if that exists, or you just decide that doesn't exist?
Well, I don't believe it exists, but I think that most of the argument here is the fallacy of the possible.
You say because it could have happened, therefore it did.
No, sir, you just said you don't believe Northwoods exists, but you're not going to investigate it.
Well, I could, but how would... My way of Congress, sir, it is ABC News, ABC News, Baltimore Sun, declassified in April of 2000.
Stay there, sir.
Let's go through it piece by piece.
In fact, I'm going to give you a minute, then I'll take a minute.
I've got my atomic clock right here.
I'll try to be fair.
Stay with us.
We appreciate you joining us.
It's here, after a year in production and traveling to distant lands.
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It's not about left and right, it's about right and wrong.
We wage war on corruption.
We crash for the lies and disinformation.
About to go back to our guest, Jonathan Mosley, who a lot of folks that snipe at us won't come on and take their medicine, but he's doing it, so I've got to commend him.
He's getting in the arena.
Get ready, I'm going to open the gates on him in a minute.
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Conclusively, right off CIA.gov, Library of Congress.
We're good to go.
You do that by blowing the fake conservatives politically out of the water, showing how they control the liberals, how Hillary's on the payroll, Clinton's on the payroll.
You expose how they're terrorists and we can defeat them together.
We can actually get the country back instead of being pacified by these government operatives out there that pose as conservatives.
And then you've got the well-meaning folks out there.
Like Jonathan Mosley, who joins us now.
Mr. Mosley, you've got the floor.
You've written this big article, 9-1-1 Bush Bashers.
Tell us how we're all wrong.
Tell us why we're smirching, profaning, to use your language, the memory of the 3,000 dead on 9-11.
Well, one of the biggest things that upsets me about this is that the effect of this is to not guard us against a real enemy.
Now, if there are other enemies and other people we need to bring to justice, that's fine.
But we know we have an enemy out there that wants to kill us.
And the effect of this is saying, drop your guard.
It's like a boxer letting his guard down so he can get walloped again.
Now I know that from your perspective, you don't want to be blamed for what other conspiracy theorists are saying about this.
And one of the points I make is that there's a mishmash of different theories out there.
And as a consequence of that, people say, oh, there's overwhelming evidence.
But the overwhelming evidence is all contradicting each other.
From your perspective, you want to be held accountable for your beliefs, but from the perspective of the country and people listening, they're hearing it all.
I don't know how to respond to that, but we keep hearing all this craziness go back and forth, and it does keep changing when they encounter facts, they just switch to another argument.
There is only one official story, but there's hundreds of alternatives, which, of course, can't all be wrong.
But the thing is that...
There are several formats here of what happened.
What got me into this, you know, considering the memory of Barbara Olson, who I knew, is you hear these facts being asserted, and then you go back and you check on them, and the initial fact turns out to be false.
Now, I don't know, that might not be true of your arguments, but it's true of an awful lot of the stuff out there, beginning with the idea that, you know, there's a 16-foot hole in the Pentagon when the engineers measured it at 90 feet, and there's hundreds of eyewitnesses.
And this kind of thing.
So there's this structure of an assertion of fact and then a whole bunch of argument flowing from it.
Go back and check the fact.
It turns out not to hold up.
The other thing is that what bothers me most is that people say, well, this is not plausible.
They then suggest something that's infinitely less plausible, that there are thousands of people with no motivation to keep quiet who've all kept silent, including civilian radar operators and airline personnel.
The airlines lost billions of dollars.
It's just completely implausible.
If you're going to argue from the idea that something is not plausible, I think the alternative needs to stand up to your own yardstick.
Okay, stop right there, because you said three minutes, and I want to run over what you just said briefly, and then I'll let you continue to spout that stuff.
Number one, you say people wouldn't keep quiet.
FBI agent Robert Wright got up on...
C-SPAN at the National Press Club and held up a letter where he'll be threatened under national security for treason.
If he tells the public what he knows, he begins crying and breaks down and says, All I can tell you is, the Bushes vacation with the Bin Ladens.
That's a quote.
And then we get the memorandum from the president, W199I, ordering...
The FBI and CIA and Defense Intelligence, Able Danger, which we now have even more on, to back off the bin Laden operations in Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as HUCON laboratories in Pakistan developing hydrogen weapons and delivery systems, and it's now all on record.
And I'm sure with that you'll say it doesn't exist.
I'm sorry, everything I just said does exist, in triplicate, mainstream news.
There were countless other FBI and other government people who were threatened with arrest if they wouldn't shut up.
When a colonel blew the whistle, they tried to charge him for $67 of unauthorized cell phone calls to his wife.
This is the type of stuff that's going on.
They threatened Sybil Edmonds with arrest.
All of this, so just don't try it.
Also, don't try to say they couldn't keep something this big secret.
They used drills to smoke screen it, compartmentalized inside these different government agencies, and they kept the Manhattan Project secret with over 100,000 employees for four years, and other facets of it secret.
We're good to go.
We're good to go.
I'm going to stop right there, and I'm just going to add that a lot of these people putting out the no planes at the Pentagon thing, I predicted stuff like this would happen.
This is a classic setup where they put out ridiculous disinfo on purpose, building straw men.
A lot of these are operatives.
So then you guys can come discredit false stories.
Go ahead.
You've got three more minutes.
Well, of course, we kept the Manhattan Project secret because the people working on it knew it was in favor of their country and were patriots.
No one watching the mass murder on television...
Remember, the World Trade Center site was owned by the firefighters for weeks.
They were looking for their buddies.
On record, they reported they found the black boxes and were ordered to shut up about it.
Oh, I'm sorry, but they found the passports.
Two of them magically didn't get... Oh, yes.
The firefighters, many of them, think there were bombs in the buildings and think it's an inside job.
The head of the biggest victim's family group says that he believes it's an inside job now and the majority of his members do.
Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
I cut in on you.
I'm sorry.
I apologize.
But they didn't... Okay, look.
To demolish the building the way I understand it is argued, you have to have 43,000 demolition devices, 236 steel columns around the outside.
You know, some number inside.
Some people say 47.
Then you times 80 or 90 floors, because you wouldn't know which floor it is.
Well, that's not true.
It would take a few hundred devices in Tower 1, which is larger explosives, and it would take several hundred devices in Building 7 with the classic bottom-down crimp blow.
Well, of course, the news footage shows it falling from the top down.
No controlled demolition in history has ever been from the top down.
That's what I just said.
Tower 1 and 2 were blown from the top down.
You can see the squibs as they explode.
I'm saying 7 was the classic demolition.
But the technical arguments, this is where they're all inconsistent.
The technical arguments are that the falling...
Well, let's do this.
Let's say that magically passports flew out undamaged, but everything else was destroyed.
No discernible remains.
Let's just say that the planes made those fall, okay?
Building 7, what are you going to fall back on?
Which one of the five stories that the government gives us are you going to give us on 7?
Something like that.
I don't think there's an official story.
Well, you said there's one official story, sir.
No, there's five.
There's five, and they've abandoned all five.
Have you actually read the NIST report like I have?
Have you actually read the entire 9-11 Commission report?
I've read the NIST report on World Trade Center 7.
Look, if you go back, and I have the news footage that I recorded from the day of and that week.
If you look at the one tower collapsed neatly, the other tower collapsed very messily.
There are chunks coming out of that top as big as ten houses together.
They blew it in sections.
They blew it in... The metal was cut off perfectly in two-story and one-story sections, perfectly sliced.
Then they said, no cameras, no photos.
Well, how would they do that without 43,000 separate demolition devices?
If they only...
Major companies could have wired each one of those towers in two weeks apiece.
They had major drills.
They had evacuations.
They had major floors closed down.
They had all sorts of weird people.
I've talked to the janitorial staff that were in there, just like Oklahoma City that Clinton pulled off when they caught the different guys in there with the, quote, gray sticks of butter drilling the columns.
They told them they were maintenance people.
And you would have to drill the columns because you would have to put the explosive directly against the steel.
Not if they're big enough.
But, yeah, they did drill in Oklahoma City.
Jane Graham, the head of HUD, witnessed them doing it.
Okay, but then you need miles of wire.
No, Bill Clinton didn't do it.
He's nice.
And you need miles of wire, and demolition experts have looked at that and said you always have... No, you don't need miles of wire.
You can go off a synchronized radio beacon.
Okay, but you couldn't synchronize different floors that way.
Have you ever tried to take a radio... No, you have different layers on different radio frequencies.
Have you ever tried to take a radio inside of a big steel building?
So the government has all sorts of systems, and they use radio a lot on these buildings.
Okay, but steel doesn't... You're not answering Building 7, sir.
The middle collapses.
It perfectly falls in on itself in a perfect little pile.
But that isn't what happened.
What happened was a demolition involved blowing out the bottom floor.
There's no demolition in history, and why would anybody try it?
It would be unprecedented.
Wait a minute.
Building 7 was the classic where you blow out the central column, then you blow out the outside columns, and it falls in on itself perfectly.
It fell at the speed of an apple.
But it fell from the top down, not from the bottom up.
Building 7 fell from the bottom, sir.
No, no.
You look at it.
No.
The penthouse, the first thing... Well, no.
The NIST report says it fell from the bottom down.
No, the first change is the penthouse.
No, no, no, sir.
That's how you do it with a bottom down.
You blow the central column so that goes first on every Las Vegas demolition.
It's a classic one.
Okay?
You're confused.
They blow the central column, it falls, then the outside columns are blown, and so it falls in on itself.
Come on.
We'll hear more from you.
Fine.
You're going to be with us until 45 after, maybe longer.
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The Genesis Communications Radio Network proudly presents the Alex Jones Show.
Because there's a war on for your mind.
There is.
Jonathan Mosley is our guest.
Attorney at law living in Virginia.
Professor Jim Fetzer, the founder and the head of 9-11 Scholars Retreat, has called in.
We've also got Barry Homish listening.
And I'll try to get him on in the next segment, and maybe I'll just try to keep our guests the entire hour, because people are just going wild to hear this.
I would just add on the imploding and falling buildings, no modern steel building had ever collapsed from fire.
He claims one that did, but that was a separate, smaller, older construction.
And, I mean, you know, top scientists, the University of Edinburgh is on record, and BBC is saying one's never fallen.
They just tried to burn a building down over a month period with different experiments, and they couldn't do it.
That was on BBC last week.
And we had the Madrid fire with 100-foot white-hot flames.
The big columns didn't collapse.
How do you respond to that, Mr. Mosley?
They're not uniform, identical things.
The idea is if one falls from ordinary fire, that proves that the temperature from ordinary fire can compromise steel.
So we just got three of those in one day, not anywhere else, but three in one day, one spot.
When you talk about three in one day, that's language of randomness, which indicates that there must be a causal element.
There is.
There's a terrorist attack that affected all three, so that's not surprising.
But the thing is, the McCormick... Look, people say no building ever fell from fire alone.
I got on the Internet five minutes later, I came up with a dozen that have partially or totally collapsed.
That is not true.
Floors have collapsed, not the main central... You can go to some old building, some 1900, we're talking about modern steel buildings.
I'll let you get more into that, sir.
You know what?
But right now, I want to give Professor Fetzer, who you really hit the hardest in here,
A chance to ask you some questions.
Professor Fetzer, go ahead and make your statements.
Yes, many of the claims this guy made during this Internet exchange were actually corrected online.
He nevertheless went ahead and put them, even knowing better, knowing that they were false or blunders, he nevertheless included them in his article.
Now, this guy, for example, McCormick Place was a convention center.
It wasn't a steel structure high-rise with welded and redundant features like the Twin Towers.
So he simply pretends he doesn't know the difference.
If he doesn't know the difference, he's incompetent.
If he does know the difference, he's corrupt.
He's been fanatical, even obsessive, about posting attacks on members of scholars.
I did a search, for example, Alex, on recent Mosley posts.
On the 23rd of July, he put up 19.
On the 1st of August, 22.
On the 15th of August, he posted 15 attacks.
His typical style was to post, then as soon as there was a response, he'd post again immediately.
His whole style was immature and juvenile.
If he was advancing serious arguments about our findings, they might have been justified in spite of that, but they committed elementary fallacies.
Well, stop there, Professor.
I want to give him a chance to respond.
We'll hold you over, and both of you are gracious to come on.
My concern here is that he says that Professor Jones...
About 80% through the tape, there's a question.
Can our aims be satisfied without violent overthrow of the government?
Professor Jones responds,
Echoing the Declaration of Independence and ends up saying no.
It cannot be.
It cannot be.
Alex, I hate to say it, but there's been a gross misrepresentation by Mr. Mosley, but I've been in contact with Steve Jones.
We have Professor Jones' comments that he emailed us now up on JonesReport.com.
That's right.
This is ridiculous.
It's outrageous and even libelous that he makes these kinds of things up, Steve.
Okay, well, what did he exactly say then, Professor?
It's on the tape.
He said there is no peaceful means to achieve our goals.
That's false, untrue, and completely not what he said.
That's wrong.
He denied it.
I was there.
He said we have to use constitutional means.
He specifically enforced impeachment.
You obviously took something out of context.
Just like the no planes hit that hit.
We didn't see what we saw.
It was on national television for everybody to see.
We didn't see it because it was some kind of mind control.
Who's making that claim?
You're now just picking from different sources to try to make together some kind of inconsistent theory.
He's now implying that we're saying that and we're denying that.
We're telling you, sir, that we've gone and watched the tape and your interpretation of what he said is out of left field.
Everybody can watch it for themselves.
They certainly can and discover that you're committing a libelous act.
Well, I'm a lawyer, and I would know better.
You ought to know better, but you commit such elementary fallacies, I don't think you go past the... Where does this come from saying that Fetzer's attacking Jews?
I've never heard... Fetzer's pretty liberal.
I haven't ever heard him criticize Jews.
I didn't say that.
I said some of the others are, but I cannot... About 90% of the discussion...
Well, wait a minute.
Let me read back in here.
Professor Fetzer, isn't there a part?
I've got the three-page article.
I mean, isn't there a part here where he does say that?
Of course.
He said I accused him of being a Jew because he was attacking our position.
Oh, yes, that's correct.
And that's what I said.
Well, say there, both of you.
I mean, let's get to the bottom of this.
Because, I mean, obviously the...
The indication there is, ooh, he wanted to know if I was a Jew.
I'm just totally confused by that.
Professor Fetzer and I have been criticized for not saying it's Israel that carried out the attacks.
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Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.
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We're going to go right back to Jonathan Mosley, who wrote the big World Net Daily article, getting so much attention.
9-11 bush bashers.
We've got to be fair with them.
We've got to give them some time to respond here.
But, Fetzer, you go ahead and finish up so we can do this one at a time.
Finish your points that you wanted to make.
He's playing several games, Alex.
One is that I asked him who he was.
I sent him an email and asked him about his background because he was acting in such an obsessive, compulsive fashion.
And I truly believe this had to be a child.
In fact, I would insist that this man, he may be older, but he acts like a child.
And I suggested that this person, if I had to guess, was about 15 years old, very bright, probably Jewish, possibly a resident of Brooklyn, attending the Scientific Technological High School.
Who believes he's superior to everyone else and has an obsession to try to prove it.
But I was commenting on his behavior, not the subject of his speech.
Second of all, here's a couple of examples of the shoddy quality of his argument.
He says the Twin Towers can't have come down as the result of controlled demolition because they blow out the first and second floors so the building falls down into its own footprint.
But I pointed out to him online, before he published this article, that was an equivocation.
He's just talking about the standard kind of controlled demolition, as in the case of Building 7.
I pointed out then and emphasized, we're talking about a special kind of controlled demolition.
It's still a controlled demolition, just because it's from the top down.
It's not the standard kind, that's all.
But Building 7 was from the bottom down.
Yeah, Building 7 was a standard controlled demolition, just like we see in Las Vegas.
A few minutes ago he was saying that wasn't the case.
Is that what you're saying, Jonathan?
The video show is definitely not the case.
What is definitely not the case?
It fell from the top down.
You're seeing a blast on the bottom cause the center pillar to fall so you see the penthouse fall.
This is clear evidence the guy is completely incompetent to discuss these issues.
All these classic demolitions we see in Las Vegas over and over again.
You have the slight indentation at the top coincidental with the blowing up at the bottom.
They blow out some beams in the center to ensure it will implode, fall toward the center.
I know Professor Fetzer, but let him counter.
Let him have some time.
Go ahead.
But there was no blowing out of the bottom floors as a classic.
Plus, the thesis is Professor Fetzer is a philosophy professor who cannot stay on the topic.
Thank you.
Okay, but the original thesis was, we're suspicious because it looked like a controlled demolition when it doesn't.
Well, but that's stupid because... Mr. Mobley, let me say something.
Sir, we say that because the firefighters reported bombs and explosions, and they reported squibs, and on all the videos, 7, 1, and 2, you see the blast points, sir.
No, you don't.
You see the ordinary piston effect of air being... where an entire floor being compressed down to nothing.
But they're not saying 7 was a pancake.
And pancaking wouldn't do that.
Before it's even pancaking, being blown up, you see the blast sometimes as much as two seconds before.
I videotaped it from the day I just looked at the video.
No, you don't see that.
I mean, this is the problem.
I don't know what video you're talking about, sir.
We have blasts going out in some cases ten floors below.
No, that's exactly what you don't see.
If you had a controlled demolition, you'd see floors that are completely undisturbed.
You're just, you know, I don't think you're stupid.
I think you're just trying to put doubts in people's minds, sir.
And by the way, we've proven this controlled demolition.
You can keep stating that we haven't.
I will just state this.
We have the public officials who are not to fly.
We have the PNAC boys saying they need a terror attack.
We have the NORAD drills.
That's why NORAD stood down with the CIA targeting the exact same places at the exact same times.
We have the official Northwoods plan to carry out these type of attacks.
We have the CIA operations like Ajax where they declassified that our government stages terror attacks.
That's why you and your guys have got a big problem.
No, because you're arguing about the possible.
Because something could have happened, therefore it did.
No, no, no.
Sir, the government admits it's carried out terror attacks.
You talked about logical fallacies, Alex.
He commits a beauty in this article, and I pointed it out to him already online before he published it.
Namely, he says because different conspiracy theories are inconsistent with one another, they must all be false.
But the only inference you can follow is that they can't all be true.
One of them could be true.
That's like saying if you have a theory of the speed of light, and just because ten people are wrong about their theory, including the government's story, one of them is right.
So yeah, to say because there's an argument, every form of science and research and detectives at a cop shop, they're going to be disagreeing, but somebody's going to be right.
I pointed out to Professor Fester online that...
They claim to have evidence proving all of these different inconsistent theories.
And if there is evidence proving all of them... That's interpretive!
That's interpretive!
I pointed out to him that that's also a fallacy because if you only take part of the evidence, you can prove one.
You have to take into account all the relevant evidence.
He's a master at what's called special pleading and taking only part of the evidence.
He's committed another blunder.
This guy could not get through a critical thinking class that I teach to our freshmen.
Well, I hope you take that course because you can't stay on one topic.
Well, sir, can you specifically, going back to Jones, can you specifically tell us where, well, number one, you are saying here that he agreed with the overthrow of the government.
And I've watched those tapes over and over again.
I never saw that or heard that.
Can you specifically tell me what Jones said?
Yes, he was asked, is there a way to achieve our goals without a violent overthrow?
He then echoed the Declaration of Independence preamble, which is a call for revolution, by deliberately echoing the language and format, which is an argument for revolution, and then ended up saying, there is no peaceful way to achieve our means.
This is completely false and misleading.
He said we have to follow the Constitution.
Well, we're going to get the exact clip, and we're going to post it.
We're doing a big story on this, because...
You know, this goes into the psychology of people like Mr. Mosley.
But again, I can't help but appreciate him, Jim.
At least he will come on and debate us and go head-to-head with us.
But what about this?
After debating these characters extensively...
You've been included on almost all of the emails back and forth.
I don't know if you've read them or choose to participate, but mostly by others.
If you put your name on a list, then you're included in the debate.
I didn't put your name.
I mean, Mr. Fetzer and his colleagues put your name on the list.
I didn't.
I didn't put Alex's name on the list.
You're making this stuff up.
You just make this stuff up as you go along.
Could we actually debate for a moment?
You know what?
You get a minute, then Jim gets a minute, and then I want to go to Barry Homish, if he's still there, to get a comment.
But go ahead.
Okay, the structure here is we have a thesis.
We have to stay on the topic.
Professor Fetzer is a master at tap-dancing around and changing the topic when he gets caught.
The thesis is, structural steel fails under the temperatures of ordinary fires.
The McCormick Place was a 1960 building just like the World Trade Center.
It did not have to bear the load of 110 floors.
It was a heavy steel building.
It was the premier exhibition hall in America.
And under ordinary fire, in 30 minutes, the steel failed.
You're talking about a lightly built convention center that has an umbrella roof and is not a heavy supportive structure.
Those things are outward husk and then have a light topping cheap construction.
Everybody knows that.
I can't believe you're trying this argument, but go ahead.
Stay on the topic.
The topic is... No, I've studied that building.
You guys always use that building.
That's ridiculous.
Is the temperature of an ordinary fire sufficient to weaken and compromise structural steel?
No, it's not.
Answer, yes.
Okay, let's have Fetzer counter that.
That's completely false.
Jim, go ahead.
The melting point of structural steel is 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit.
The highest temperature a jet-based fuel fire can attain is 1,800 degrees.
There's a 1,000-degree difference.
The Underwriters Laboratory certified the steel used in the towers to 2000 degrees up to six hours.
The temperatures never got anywhere near there.
They estimated closer to 500 degrees.
This is completely ridiculous.
In fact, there was a fire in 1975 in the North Tower on the 13th of February that burned much hotter and much longer.
And I've got to add this.
There were the firefighters reported that in both towers the fires were almost out, and to call up more ladders to save the people, and there were people standing in the holes for minutes waiting for help without burning or without being singed,
Begging for helicopter rescue that never came, inches away from pillars, that seconds later, as they talked on cell phones, blew up.
Now, go ahead.
We've got to give him some time.
Go ahead and finish up what you were saying, Jonathan.
The same underwriters lab in their study of World Trade Center cited McCormick Place and a dozen other steel structures that have partially or completely failed
Or the proposition in Underwriters Lab's view that structural steel does fail.
No, they told the engineers that did the study to shut up and lie, and they wouldn't do it, so they got fired.
No, the Underwriters Lab, because Professor Fester is, again, changing the subject.
Nobody is melting steel.
The issue is, does it bend and expand so it shears bolts, breaks connectors, warps the structure?
It doesn't have to melt.
This was a welded...
Steel structure with an intricate lattice, redundant support system.
It was very sophisticated.
It cannot have suffered from a pancake kind of collapse.
I got a structural engineer on this website to correct him on McCormick Place and on the capacity of the Twin Towers to subject to pancake collapse.
He simply ignores it.
When this guy is corrected, he just goes ahead and repeats his own phony arguments, whether they commit equivocation or logical blunders or no matter what.
He has the mind of a 15-year-old, and he's obsessed to prove himself correct, no matter how wrong he may be.
Well, it's because Professor Fetz comes back with dreck.
He talks about melting steel instead of structural collapse.
Well, sir, listen, the University of Edinburgh, with their top engineers, for a month, every day...
Tried to burn down a 24-story steel building, similar construction.
They couldn't get anything to even weaken.
All they could get was sheetrock to cave in.
Okay?
They burned it day after day.
BBC just aired it.
They said they couldn't believe that Tower 1, 2, and 7 fell.
That's why they did the major study.
Okay?
Now, I'm going to stop you.
And there are a lot of other engineers saying this.
Kevin Ryan is saying this.
Countless others are saying this.
And I don't understand how... Listen, it's been well known that buildings are safe.
Listen, listen, listen.
Edinburgh is doing these tests because they say this changes insurance, everything.
If buildings will suddenly collapse from kerosene, coal-burning fuel, black-burning smoke, low-oxygen flames, and you can run through this stuff, if this is the case, then the laws of physics have been suspended.
Go ahead.
Did they hit it with 104 tons of aircraft traveling 542 miles per hour?
If that was the case, it would have happened by the time the fires hit their peak level.
The fires had already diminished by over 90%.
Steve, he knows these arguments are phony.
He knows these arguments are phony.
I've pointed out repeatedly that Frank DiMartini, who is a construction manager on the World Trade Center, had observed that they were designed to withstand the impact of the largest then commercial airline as Boeing 707.
Two of them.
Yeah, whose impact, he said, would be analogous to sticking a pencil through mosquito netting.
Now, this guy either doesn't know any better, in which case he's incompetent, or he knows better, in which case he's corrupt.
There are no alternatives.
He's either incompetent or corrupt.
Nomuru Yamasaki, the designer of the towers, went on record saying they could take multiple jumbo jet hits.
Nobody tested that, did they?
And a Boeing 707 is half the mass.
Sir, do you understand the molecular nature of aluminum when it hits giant steel columns and concrete?
It's a joke, sir.
Yeah, and do you understand the bomb effect of 30,000 kilograms of jet fuel going off in the middle, in the center of the building is a gigantic bomb?
Most of that fuel burned off in the giant fire bomb.
They've done analysis, sir, of the pounds per square inch pressure generated by that fuel detonating, and it is thousands of times too weak to even blow out the smallest columns.
That's ridiculous.
We know exactly how much C4 it takes properly jacketed to cut columns.
This is hard to do.
Look at Dr. Frank Greening's extensive and excellent article, which analyzes all the energy on this.
And if you have a gigantic bomb going off in the center of the building...
From 30,000 kilograms, that's 30 tons of jet fuel exploding.
You're mangling the entire interior.
Yeah, you would have had that damage, even if you believe your phony science, and then it would have broken off or slumped or bent.
It wouldn't go boom, boom, boom, and blow off and clear little easy sections.
Is Barry Homish still there?
Hold on just a second, guys.
Is Barry Homish still there, Scott?
Barry Homish is a writer written for major papers in Israel.
I believe he's here in the U.S.
I'm just going to give him a minute or so.
I don't even know what subject he's calling in on.
Then I'll let both of you gentlemen continue to the end of the hour.
Please stay with us, Fetzer and Mosley.
Barry Homish, thank you for coming on with us.
What's on your mind?
Yeah, I was helped on, actually.
Look, the business of Jews and 9-11 and all that, look, the architect of the World Trade Center is on my email list.
He's been writing me for the last four years.
Now, he always had difficulties with it, but now he's coming out and going public.
His name is Aaron Swirsky.
And what's his name?
As I said, I've been corresponding with him for years.
Barry Chalmers, I've been meaning to get you on the air, and we finally got your number.
Let me get your number again as backup, and then try to give me his email.
I'd like to interview him now.
I know we have chief engineers, the chief designer, Yamasaki.
What area of design would Aaron Swartsky be involved in?
I'm going to get you his number.
If I have to, I'll phone Israel and get it for you, and we'll see what he says.
What do you think about Jonathan Mosley saying that he doesn't believe there was any government involvement?
Well, that's ridiculous.
Look, the fact of the matter is there are ties to Israel, and one of the most disturbing is Menachem Atzmon.
During the 1980s, the Likud party had two accountants.
One was Menachem Atzmon, the other one was Ehud Olmert.
Atzmon was head of security for Logan and Newark airports.
It's not just Israel.
We had a war.
It's supposedly over.
We have a guy named Seymour Hersh claiming that the CFR, the so-called neocons, approved the war and that Israel took the air for two and a half weeks with no ground troops to see what it would be like to bomb Iraq.
And we're getting all terrible, terrible lost.
Barry, I've got to leave you there.
Let me get you on as a guest.
Great journalist.
Get his number because I know he's traveling around right now.
For me, Scott.
We'll get him on next week if he can.
Thank you, Barry.
We're going to go out of break to a final segment with both our guests.
We appreciate them both being here with us.
Jonathan Mosley, I'm going to let you take us out of this segment.
Go ahead.
Well, again, there are hundreds of alerts every year.
This is what bothers me.
People are constantly being warned that there's chatter or something like that.
The fact that some security person got it from authorities and passed it down, that's happening constantly and was always happening constantly.
But the media then tried to claim that it was just an urban legend and no one was warned.
Why didn't they just say what you just said?
Well, I don't know, but I remember hearing warnings during the summer of 2001 before anyone knew there was going to be a 9-11.
Yeah, for me, probably.
Might as well be.
Stay there, both of you.
Final segment with Jim Fetzer and our guest, Jonathan Mosley, who wrote this savage hit piece on myself.
They're going to go to my website, Infowars.com, and they're going to find out the truth.
But I think it's great.
They're going to join us to defend this republic.
I know it's hard to believe our government did this, but it's not our government.
It's globalists.
They're the same ones getting rid of our borders right now.
They're the same ones giving away our ports.
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The official final DVD is out with the 66 minutes of extras, including Professor Jones and Fetzer's speeches.
I think that Mosley's last point well illustrates his incapacity to come to grips with the facts in this matter.
He said that the
The plane that actually hit the building was very different than the 707s that they were designed to accommodate.
In fact, precisely the opposite is the case.
I routinely lecture on this.
The physical property is that the mass and even the fuel capacity of these planes are very comparable.
I found at least three other engineers who agreed with Frank DiMartini that the buildings were constructed to withstand the impact of those airliners.
His point here is either deliberately deceiving us or he's utterly incompetent because he has no familiarity with the facts of the case.
Well, I mean, let's ask him.
Why are you doing this?
I think he's told us he doesn't believe the story we've put out.
I guess he believes the official story.
I know when he says that there's one official story, that is not the case.
The government constantly is changing its story.
Maybe Jonathan's missed that.
Jonathan, your comments?
Well, the Boeing website reports the mass fully loaded as being double for the aircraft that hit the World Trade Center than a 707.
And the theory in the 60s was that an aircraft going around 180 miles an hour
Well, listen, you know, you're a lawyer.
He's a professor.
We all have rights to have our views and study, but you keep implying by saying he's a philosophy professor that we don't have a bunch of scientists trained in engineering and physics that have come to the same conclusion.
Exactly.
He appears not even to know that my Ph.D.
is in the history of science and the philosophy of science.
The history of science is dominated by physics.
He doesn't understand I publish 27 books on technical subjects.
And have taught critical thinking, logic, and scientific reasoning for 35 years.
I can spot blunders when they occur, and you commit them all the time.
I've explained them to you, and you went ahead and published them anyway.
That's completely irresponsible, and the product is intellectual rubbish.
This is what Kevin Ryan said, and we'll get to the bottom of it.
He's emailed WorldNet daily and has said of the numerous false statements made in the article by John Mosley that you recently published, at least one should remain and result in legal action.
Anyone who actually listened to the C-SPAN broadcast and 9-11 Scholars Group can clearly hear that Mosley's quote of Stephen Jones is inaccurate to say the least.
Dr. Jones did not say that there is no peaceful way to achieve the group's goals, and Dr. Jones has not promoted violence in any of his presentations.
A correction of this libelous error might be wise choice.
Thanks, Kevin Ryan, UL Laboratories former underwriter engineer.
You want to comment to his email he's put out?
Millions of people saw it.
I think this guy ought to be reported to the Board of Ethics in his domain.
This is completely unethical and corrupt behavior.
Well, Mr. Professor Fetzer repeatedly says that the weight of one floor is not enough to bring down subsequent floors.
No, in full note, well, the 29 floors, the 35 floors... Mosley, you're jumping around.
We're talking about Steve Jones and your libel of him.
I was there, buddy.
He didn't say what you claimed.
We're talking about why the University of Minnesota should fire you, Mr. Professor Fetzer, because you're specifically lying.
They made me a distinguished McKnight University professor.
You better check it out, Mosley.
Your facts and your logic is atrocious.
We're out of time.
We are out of time, ladies and gentlemen.
Professor Fetzer, thank you for coming on.
My pleasure, Alex.
Jonathan Mosley, will we see more articles from you?
Well, I didn't get to debate or say much here.
I guess you might, especially on Thermite.
Oh, you've got probably 20 minutes to talk.
It's not fair you've gotten to say plenty.
Well, listen, you can come back on.
We'll set you back up next week.
God bless, folks.
Order a copy of this show for your friends and family at GCNlive.com or call 877-300-7645.
Nuclear... Big Brother...
Mainstream media.
Government cover-ups.
You want answers?
Well, so does he.
He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
Clifford Carnicum will join us for an hour plus to talk about chemtrails, aerial spraying...
What's really going on, the latest developments there, and going back over his six, seven years of research on this.
Right now, let's go back to the calls.
Tim, Williamson, or Wilson and others.
Tim in West Virginia, you're on the air.
Thanks for holding.
Hello, Alex.
This is Tim.
I'm back in West Virginia there.
What I wanted to call you about, I received a call from a survey, a presidential survey.
They was wanting the ratings on Bush.
They want to know if maybe Bush's rating was a little bit higher than what the biased media was reporting it to be.
So it was a fake neocon call.
Right, right.
So I said, okay, do you care to participate in the survey?
I said, sure.
So then he put someone on there and gave this drum roll about giving comfort and aid to the enemy and all that stuff.
So Dr. Ray says, how do you rate this?
I said, well, I say his rating is lower than what they were reporting.
And they say, well, why do you think that?
I said, well, okay, I'll give you one word.
William Rodriguez?
He didn't know what that was.
I said, okay, 9-11, inside job, Bush did it, should be charged for treason and executed.
And he said, what?
I said, yeah.
He said, no, Clinton done that, and he hung up on me.
So you've got some neocon polling agency calling.
That's called a push poll, by the way.
Should our leader be able to protect us from terrorists?
And then the headline, the people support Bush in the war on terror.
I mean, I've gotten calls like that before, and then they'll put out the little fake neocon report.
Right.
Yeah, that's what I thought was kind of funny.
They were saying the bias leader...
Are you kidding?
The so-called liberal media is busy spinning and lying and acting like Bush actually runs something.
The guy's a puppet to begin with.
Hey, good job, Tim.
I appreciate your call.
The only thing I disagree with is I'm not going to come on here and say I think Bush should be executed.
He's a puppet.
I think he deserves a jury by his peers.
He needs to be brought to trial for treason, and then the sentence needs to be carried out.
Let's talk to, and I would just advise our listeners never to really talk like that,
Because you can get in a lot of trouble for saying that.
And I'm not condescending against the caller.
Sounds like a great person.
I just don't want our good people to get in trouble.
Let's talk to Wilson in Arkansas.
Wilson, welcome.
Thank you for taking my call.
I've got a quick comment and an unrelated question.
Sure, go ahead.
My comment is to Christians, and this is as a Christian, to those who support Israel no matter what Israel does.
Evil is evil, and no one has the right to do it.
Tribulation and anguish comes upon every man that does evil, to the Jew first and also the Gentile.
Glory and honor and peace to every man that works good to the Jew first and also to the Gentiles and Romans if anyone wants to check it out.
Nobody has a right to do evil.
Just because you're called Israel, whatever.
Evil is evil, period.
My question was, what's your take on the Leo Wanta $4.5 trillion settlement articles that are floating around the internet?
And I'll take your comment off of you.
Thank you.
I don't know what to say about that.
I don't know if that's accurate or if that's real or what's going on.
I haven't had time to
Properly research it, and that's basically where I'll leave it.
There's a lot of stuff on the web that you can't confirm one way or the other, so I just move away from it.
For those that just joined us, Israel admits they're targeting civilian convoys that they told to flee, and the convoys in southern Lebanon out of five major towns and villages run up against the bridges that have been bombed out, and then here come the helicopters and jets firing Hellfire missiles and dropping 500-pound bombs and strafing them.
And there are photos and video, and it's all over the foreign press of dead families splattered all over the road, but you're not really seeing that.
You're seeing a censored version, a watered-down version on our news.
So in part of the third hour today, I'll get more into that.
I mentioned a bunch of news in the last hour I was going to get into, and I haven't yet.
I will cover it.
It's up on Infowars.com right now.
Marshals, innocent people placed on watch lists to meet quota.
Oh my gosh, this is out of Denver.
This is out of TV Channel 7.
And it is admitted that they are putting innocent people's names on terrorist watch lists.
Stay with us.
We'll get to that later.
It's here, after a year in production and traveling to distant lands.
My new film, Terror Storm, is complete.
Shocking declassified government documents prove that Western governments are orchestrating terror attacks against their own populations as a pretext to enslave them.
Terror Storm proves that not only was 9-11 an inside job, but the attacks of 7-7 in London were carried out by British intelligence.
Terror Storm chronicles the lies that took us to war in Iran.
The White House program to disseminate fake news.
NSA spy.
Secret police torture.
The latest 9-11 information and much, much more.
Terror Storm is the definitive guide to the history of government-sponsored terrorism.
It's an anthology of government crimes.
Terror Storm is a film that everyone who wants to be truly informed must see.
Get your copy today at Infowars.com or PrisonPlanet.com or by calling toll-free 1-888-253-3139 or watch it right now online at PrisonPlanet.tv.
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He's the T-Rex of political talk.
Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
Before we get into this next subject of the government and private agencies, groups, organizations, black op, black world, corporations, syndicates, carrying out aerial spraying against the American people, I want to just set the table here.
And I hope to keep Clifford Carnicom at least halfway into the next hour so we have plenty of time to take your calls.
I remember long before we'd even heard of chemtrails instead of contrails, commensation trails, reading in declassified government documents in 77 that there had been over 3,000 declassified instances of aerial spraying of chemical, biological, and radiological materials and then a whole other section of particulates that didn't fit into those four
Being sprayed on the American people.
And I like to go back to really famous cases, the few that have been actually heard of.
Aircraft and Navy ships sprayed biological agents that did cause deaths.
That's mainstream news.
Details remain classified.
That's what was declassified in 1977 in the ship channel, you know, the Golden Gate Bridge area of San Francisco in 1949.
In 1968, time-released bio-agents were released on the New York subway at 9 a.m.
in the morning.
In 1968.
Death resulted.
Army doctors were at nearby hospitals, quote, in residency in the months before so that they could chronicle for themselves what the effects were.
They have never told us what the biological agent was.
Only that it was a bacterium.
Okay, there's two famous examples.
I've interviewed a bunch of sailors and Air Force officers, and I've interviewed British soldiers and whistleblowers, and it's been in the BBC and AP, and it's been everywhere, that from the 1940s until 1985, Project Shad, from Hawaii to Germany, would have troops stand out in a field, say, in Wales, and jets would fly over at 500 feet and spray a chemical weapon on them, and troops would die on the spot, and troops would die a week later, and troops would die five years later, and some are still alive.
Or they'd tell a young officer, you get an extra three-day leave if you sign in for a flu test.
We're going to spray you with flu and see, you know, it's for the country.
Then the guy signs it and they walk him in the chamber, hit him with VX nerve gas.
He dies.
They dissect the body.
Folks, there are thousands of these.
Literally, listen, I've read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds myself, okay?
And then I've looked at lists of thousands.
I cannot cover it all.
I would be here talking for eternity.
Two years ago, let's use a newer example.
It's in the Daily Oklahoman.
It's in the Oklahoma papers that 5,000 pounds of Subtilis Globogy, a bacteria that can cause spontaneous abortions in all mammal mammalian species, and is listed by the federal government and the army as dangerous...
Was sprayed on every town and city over a one-year period.
5,000 pounds!
You'd read in the Daily Oklahoman, 5,000 pounds of Subtilis Globogy will be sprayed in hundreds of different operations by small fixed-wing aircraft over the next year by the Department of Homeland Security in a test of the wind patterns of a biological release.
It is completely safe.
Then you go read what Subtilis Globogy is.
It causes upper respiratory problems, abortions, blood infections, everything.
Just go look it up.
That's one more case of thousands.
White Rock, New Mexico sprang.
On and on and on and on.
Black men.
It first came out over 45 years that they just let them die of syphilis and spread it.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Now it's come out they gave it to them.
They've caught the UN in over 100 countries with over 10 different manufacturers putting a pathogen hormone attached to the tetanus pathogen to sterilize women.
On and on and on.
Bayer, for over 10 years, knowingly knew their factor rate, every dose had AIDS in it and hepatitis C, and that everyone was going to get it who took it.
And their own documents are now public, MSNBC.
It's all public that they knowingly said, so what, let them die.
So I don't want to hear that the government wouldn't spray us with something because I cannot even chronicle how many instances there are.
Now, let me add this, and we're going to flip a corner comment.
Who I am just so proud of.
He made a documentary.
He put it out for free.
He didn't even sell it for $2 a piece for shipping.
They stream it for free.
We've got a link to it on Infowars.com.
That's when you care, folks.
I think you ought to charge a little more so you can have more funds to fund his operation.
But he's done some of the best research out there.
But C'est La Vie, he just gives it out for free.
Free stream of it.
And then you can also get it for the cost of shipping.
So...
But before I go any further, there are nuts everywhere who point at every condensation trail and discredit all of us.
And say, that's a chemical trail, that's a chemical... No, no.
If they're spraying at 30,000 feet, all the evidence shows they're either hitting somebody 5,000, 10,000 miles away where the jet stream comes down to ground...
We're good to go.
We have all seen this type of stuff go on.
This has been reported on.
There's a bunch of declassified instances of it.
So if they're going to spray your town, it's going to be from 2,000 feet or lower.
Normally 1,500 feet.
Helicopter and fixed wing.
And there is chemtrail spraying.
I remember in 97, 98 it started.
Before anybody even had talked about it, I said, why do trails, and I never knew the answer, that used to disappear in a few seconds to a minute, why are they there four hours later?
Why do they all form a haze?
Now NASA admits the Earth is 20% darker than it was 30 years ago.
Now it's in mainstream government textbooks that they are spraying.
Joining us is Clifford Carnicum.
Sir, thank you for holding during that introduction.
We are so honored to have you.
Let me just give folks your bio.
Clifford Carnicombe, who has been actively involved in bringing attention to the chemtrail phenomenon, has been a self-employed professional computer consultant for the past three years and now resides in Santa Fe, New Mexico with his wife, Carol.
He was previously a research scientist and federal employee for 15 years with three different agencies, including the United States Department of Defense, the Bureau of Land Management, and the U.S.
Forest Service.
His technical background is extensive in the fields of...
Science.
I guess that's geodietic, if I'm pronouncing that right.
Science, advanced mathematics, computer science, and the physical sciences.
And that's the bio from Coast to Coast AM.
Clifford Carnacom, again, thanks for joining us.
Alex, thanks very much for the opportunity to be here.
I truly appreciate it.
And I also thank you for establishing that precedent, as you did in that opening segment, which is very, very true.
And, you know, you referred to 1977, and I have a document that was given to me shortly after I started this research that is very clear documentation of the long history and litany of open-air testing.
This particular document concerns congressional hearings that were held in 1977 that basically raise a question.
It's an acknowledgment that the U.S.
population has been openly tested and or experimented
Or operated upon.
And U.S.
Code Title 50 Chapter 30... U.S.
Code Chapter 50... I've got to say this code real fast to be able to get it out right.
That's how my memory works.
U.S.
Code Title 50 Chapter 32 Subsection 1520A Paragraph B says they're allowed to use lethal chemical, biological, or radiological agents on the American people for research.
Sorry.
And, you know, this is 30 years later, but the opening line of these hearings is just amazing to me because it's basically unfortunate, but it appears that after 30 years there's been really no progress made.
I'd like to read just one sentence, if I can, in the opening line to these hearings.
It says, "...recent revelations of similar open-air testing in civilian areas have alarmed many people."
Their concern extends beyond the safety or hazards presented by the test organisms.
However, it goes to the heart of what a free society is all about.
Should a democratic people cede to its government the full responsibility of determining when secret tests on unwitting subjects are necessary to protect the nation's security?
That was Kennedy back when Kennedy actually did some work in 1977.
And I really give him credit because he raised the fundamental issue, which is really the very same issue now.
And that is, what limit is there?
What threshold is there to the claim or guise of national security as a domain that is untouchable, no matter what the circumstances are?
And this is a world that we're in now.
National security is used as a defense, a hidden defense,
As to any and all of these operations that the public has an obvious right to know, but are put under the cloak of supposedly protecting us.
And Kennedy nailed it 30 years ago in that statement.
Well, it's a blank check for total tyranny.
Oh, we're having no-bid contracts.
National Security, oh, we're secretly arresting you.
National Security, we're going to spray bioweapons on you.
National Security, I mean, it's a perfect pretext for dictatorship.
It is, and I thank you for establishing precedent, because that's a good ground plane to start on, is for people to realize, you know, this is not something that needs to be imagined or constructed.
This is very real, has a long history.
What is different about this operation that I became involved in researching at the beginning of 1999... Is that it's so huge.
...is the scale and magnitude of the operation, and also the arrogance, the scale and the arrogance of the operation.
And that is, we are now in a state of affairs where we have
Open air testing on a global scale, direct lying about it from top officials.
United States Air Force lied early in the game, a direct lie to the American public.
Calling this a hoax without any real documentation of any kind to support their claim.
And the scale and arrogance and magnitude of the effect is what's different.
And that is important.
It's not the same as conducting some localized test for some defensive project.
This is open air operations.
It's not a test.
This thing is in place.
Our atmosphere has been changed.
This world has been changed.
It's not a matter of some little test pilot.
You are breathing an altered atmosphere now.
We all are.
I don't even know where to start, Clifford Garnacom.
Let's go through how you woke up and the different projects that are rolled in.
You mentioned the main focus of it, and I've done some similar research and looked at your research.
It does appear to be mainly an atmosphere alteration, but then there's some other operations going on, too.
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Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen.
Clifford Carnacom is our guest talking about chemtrails.
There's only one part of the chemical biological testing going on against this.
I would say that it's kind of a dual axis.
Everything happening in the air, in the water.
They poison the water.
They've been caught red-handed doing it.
They poison the air.
They institutionalize what they're doing right in front of our faces many times.
It's the arrogance, the sodium fluoride, the stannous fluoride, and the rest of it documented to be deadly poison.
But then you have the vaccines.
They're also poisoning you through those.
See, if they're admitted to have done all this horrible stuff in the past, how do you then now trust them to take your vaccines?
If one of the biggest pharmacological companies in the world, Bayer, would knowingly put AIDS virus in your drugs, knowingly, knowingly, and hepatitis C, knowingly, knowing it was in there,
My work started at the very beginning of 1999, Alex, in February.
We go outside quite a bit.
My wife and I go camping quite a bit, and I have a background that's outdoors quite a bit.
And I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, which is a high desert region.
Certainly one of the classic regions for high desert, blue skies, just beautiful vistas.
Many artists live here because of that.
And so it's actually an ideal laboratory if a person wants to be in a certain place to examine this issue.
And February 14th, it was Valentine's Day, was the day that I actually started to work.
And it had been preceded by several weeks of noticing a pattern
That we would head out on our trips for the morning and the weekend.
It would look absolutely beautiful when we would wake up.
Very typical weather conditions for the high desert southwest.
And then we'd have breakfast, and about an hour and a half later we'd go out, and the weather had completely changed.
And that was acting really at a subconscious level for two to three weeks.
And then on February 14th, I was out the door.
At the time, it was still perfectly blue, and this aircraft went directly overhead.
And what was different this time is I just watched.
I'm sure it was being triggered at a subconscious level, but this time I just stood and I just watched.
And I watched the transition take place for the first time.
And the amazing thing is that a major transition can actually take place in about a half hour
You can watch a clear sky and be totally filled with these trails that just stay there.
You can't say individual aircraft, but over 100 passes...
I think so.
Thank you.
Very shortly after, you would find, and I was just an individual, really a pretty low-key person.
I was a quiet and conservative federal employee.
They were living on your website.
But I was drawing attention very early in the game because my work is more of an analytical nature, that's for sure.
It's observation and analysis, that's my background.
And then it started from there, and from that point on, I started my work and ended up,
I've spent a probably good six years.
The past year I have not been actively involved in research because I've reached really thresholds of what I can do.
It does look like there's another subject I'm going to be getting involved in.
But there are literally thousands of pages, I would assume, that I have written now over six years and devoted pretty much my entire life
To this issue, to basically call alarm.
That was my purpose, to call alarm.
This is not something that is solved by a person.
This is not something you look for.
Certainly, you're just alerting people to something strange going on.
When did this start?
For me, about 97, 98, I began to notice the trails that disappeared within a minute maximum would be there four or five hours later.
Clear skies would be turned into these trails that just expanded and merged.
And then NASA comes out and says suddenly the Earth is 20% darker.
Just on the weather control angle of this, what's going on?
Well, I did want to mention, as you said, there's a lot of things to this, and it's very true.
And people do have a tendency to, I would say, either simplify it or avoid it because it's too complex, either or.
And it is a complex issue, and over a period of six, seven years, I have evolved to where there's about seven areas that I think are involved in this project.
Well, let's run through the gamut, run the gauntlet, with you on the other side.
Clipper Carnicom, the website's carnicom.com.
We have a link to it up on infowars.com.
Just vital information that this man has done.
So many other great researchers, but he was the trailblazer.
We'll be right back.
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This show is documented.
Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
Bottom line, we know that condensation trails, growing up my entire life, my father's life, I've talked to grandparents when jet travel first began.
Trails always disappear within a minute.
My entire life.
And then suddenly, the late 90s, they began to just hang there, expand, grow.
So, is the government blocking out the evil radiation from the sun?
Or are they engaging in mass inoculation?
All these things have been said.
Are they poisoning us?
Well, we know in the past they have killed American citizens on purpose with admitted biological testing.
And then we have all the admissions of low-altitude spraying.
Clifford Carnicom, walk through the seven different areas of your research and what you know, what you've tested.
Break it down for us, sir.
Thanks, Alex.
This list was five up to about a year ago, and there's been two added that I haven't really written up, but I've added them to the list.
Some of these can be shown to exist, at least with the best evidence we can.
Some of them exist strictly through analysis.
Basically, in my case, I have to look at the data and then ask, what would you do if this set of data exists?
What does that data portend, basically?
I wouldn't call it conjecture by any means, but it's definitely a process of analysis.
The seven areas would be as follows.
The first would be, and I would say that all of these, I would call them areas of operation that are consistent with all of the data that has been collected over seven years.
They do not exist individually.
They exist simultaneously.
They are.
First one would be environmental modification and control, actually modifying our world in terms of its environment and weather.
This would be the simplest and the easiest probably to understand and demonstrate.
The second would be the conduct of biological operations, using particulates as a transport medium for biological materials.
Thank you very much.
Of the ionosphere at altitude, which... Some type of conductivity for HAARP or something.
Yeah, that's right.
That medium, think of that medium of the ionosphere being brought to a lower level around the Earth, basically.
We can talk about each of these in more detail.
The fourth would be military operations.
Defense, military, offensive, defense, and military operations.
HAARP is certainly a main player.
If you look at the...
At the thesis and patent of the HAARP facility, it fits like a glove with the actual data that exists for us now.
The fifth is a little bit more esoteric, but still quite feasible to me.
This would be one based on analysis, and that is geophysical modification.
Actually, the consideration of whether the planet itself, not talking about just the atmosphere,
But the geophysics of the Earth.
You would be talking about rotation of the Earth, geophysical processes, tectonic, these type of things.
And that may sound a little bit stretched for some folks, but the data actually suggests that such things could indeed be feasible to do.
The last two are additions over the last year, which have not been written up.
Number six would be surveillance.
A surveillance operation.
The idea there being, you know, most of us are familiar with radar, and radar is when you send a radio wave out and it bounces off and something comes back and tells you something's there.
Well, what's interesting is radar works because the objects that you're detecting are of a certain size.
It has to do with the wavelength of what you're sending out.
It has to match what it is you're looking for.
So radio works with radar for airplanes and big objects.
But there is an alternative method of detection that involves light waves.
And the wavelength of light waves is extremely small, very small.
And in fact, it's at the same size as the particles that we're speaking of that compose these operations that are being introduced.
So it's quite feasible that you actually could develop a surveillance system
That would, instead of being able to track large objects, such as planes and boats and this type of thing, could track literally down to the microscopic level.
Well, I mean, in the public admissions about HAARP, they say that it was designed to see tiny objects over the horizon.
Exactly true.
The HAARP patent is just full.
Exactly true.
I've spent some time with that patent.
And I didn't really know a lot about it when I started, but I sort of dug into that on a technical side, and I'll tell you, the overlap is just tremendous.
Now, that's all the science on the end of it.
Studying this, looking at it, though, you know, just speaking on your opinion, what do you think they're doing?
Number one, what is this doing to the atmosphere?
What changes have we seen that can then point us towards what their goals may be?
Okay.
The actual materials that are being identified over and over and over are what you would call ionizing salts.
It's a very specific category of physics and yet extremely important.
The best explanation for what can physically transform the atmosphere in the way that they have is through the introduction of ionizable metallic salt.
Now, what does that mean?
And also of an extremely small size down at the submicron level.
Is it that similar to the nuclei they use to weather control?
You mean for cloud seeding?
Yes, yes.
Well, I would suspect, you know, if we looked into the cloud seeding, and I could be mistaken, but I suspect the particles that we're dealing with would be a magnitude.
Those are crystals we're talking about, you know, in a conventional sense.
The size of these is so incredibly small.
A human hair is 60 to 100 microns.
Bacteria are on the order of 10 microns.
What I'm speaking of is on the order of a submicron, most likely.
So the size of what you're talking about is truly a unique, let's say represents a truly unique opportunity for physical change in terms of how clouds form and this type of thing.
Okay, please continue.
But this business of ionization appears to be extremely important.
The materials that are being found, specific ones would be calcium, magnesium, and barium.
My tests have repeatedly shown these.
Barium is a tremendous concern here because it is a highly toxic element in soluble form.
It's quite on par with arsenic in terms of toxicity in soluble form.
And what I'm speaking of would be in soluble form because you're talking about clouds and moisture.
These particular elements, calcium, barium, and magnesium, with special emphasis upon calcium and barium,
I think so.
If you can ionize a material and throw electrons into a gas, namely the air, we're talking about a very open door in terms of the physics of what you have created.
There is a word called plasma, and many of us are familiar with a neon light tube, this type of thing.
A neon light tube is filled with gas, and yet what happens?
You send energy from point A to point B. You create light.
That same idea is what I'm talking about here.
It is quite conceivable and appears to be the end goal, certainly what HAARP explicitly describes, is that if you can increase the electron density in the atmosphere, you can create what is called a plasma.
And a plasma is an electrically conductive gas.
If you create an electrically conductive gas,
In my mind, it's literally an open door towards the transmission and control and manipulation of energy in that environment.
We're talking about electromagnetic energy, ELF energy.
The wavelength that our bodies work upon is 0 to 100 hertz, ELF energy.
Over and over and over, I have detected the presence of
It appears clearly artificial.
There's no explanation I can come for it in a natural sense at all.
This is stepped intervals of four hertz.
Artificial energy at the ELF level.
These are the waves that our bodies work at, our brains work at, our minds work at.
So everything to me says that a grand design behind this project is to and has been to create
A altered atmosphere that is now usable for the transmission, let's say enhanced transmission and propagation of electromagnetic energy, a component of which includes ELF energy.
ELF energy can be used to store.
If you pump it like a Tesla would deal with its resonance factor.
If you pulse ELF energy, you can store tremendous amounts of energy at the level of a geophysical weapon.
There's something called a heave weapon.
If you read that Hart Report, there's something called a heave weapon.
A heave weapon is where you actually lift up the magnetic field of the earth.
And it is equivalent in energy as well as apparently effect.
To the types of things you would see with an atomic bomb, with the advantage that you don't actually detonate anything.
I mean, it's really pretty astounding.
So it's an invisible weapon where you can basically kill all the life in an entire region if you wish.
Yes.
You know, this is not something I'm making up.
This is something I study.
That's what my work is.
No, I understand.
I've seen those federal documents.
And going back to tectonic weapons that you mentioned earlier, we have Secretary of Defense Cohen.
Back in 97, giving a speech about tectonic earthquake type, volcanic type weapons, and then expanding on that to just show the craziness of people running things.
They've used tens of thousands of tons of depleted uranium,
All over the world, knowing that the radiation detectors are picking up higher levels and that the particulates are very bad for all of us.
We know they tested hundreds.
Our own government did a high-altitude test on nuclear weapons back in the 60s.
So we know that they do things that are very bad for the environment on a routine basis.
Publicly, I've read that these different salts, these different chemicals that are in the air are also very bad for human tissues.
In numerous ways.
I mean, you can just take it on a physical level first, just the mechanical side.
There is a direct link between increased mortality and increased particulate count.
You can get this from the American Lung Association, whatever.
This is all over the place.
John Hopkins, if you breathe more particles, more of you will die.
That's just the mechanics of it.
Then you have to raise the question of, well, what exactly are these particles?
What are they composed of, and what might they carry?
Well, certainly if the compounds are a soluble barium compound, those guys are toxic, highly toxic.
And then if you extend this on to the piggyback or transport mechanism, which is also exemplified in HAARP,
Then you open up another hole.
What's the main way of distribution?
I mean, a lot of times it's these unmarked white airplanes that have been photographed at weird U.S.
bases out in Arizona and Indiana and all over the country.
We know that's going on, but sometimes it's the passenger jets.
Is this being mixed with fuel?
What's the main delivery mode for this?
Yeah, these are good questions.
You know, I once did a talk up here in Taos, New Mexico, and I started right at the beginning.
I said, folks, sorry.
But the main questions you want, the five W's, who, what, when, where, why, whatever, you're not going to get a simple direct answer.
We don't have it, unfortunately.
You're dealing with observations that have to be taken by citizens on the ground because there is no forthcoming information on this whatsoever.
Now, that being said, I will say this.
There are many individuals that have stated that these planes are a certain type of plane, say a military tank or this type of thing.
There are people that have said commercial aircraft, it's a joke to think that they are even remotely involved in this.
What I do is I just collect the data, and if you look at my early work, the early work for the first year or two was nothing more than collecting photographs, almost entirely.
I focused on getting images.
And I would post these images the best that I could get with telescopic images, telephoto images, and post them and ask the question, what type of plane is this?
What are we dealing with?
And all I will say, if you look at the photographs that I have taken, some of them which are truly remarkable in that they clearly show emissions from the entire wingspan.
I have five of these.
Very good examples.
They show emissions across the entire wingspan, a continuous stream.
It doesn't come from the engines in that case.
I'm not saying in all cases at all.
But I do believe there have been different methods that have been used and experimented upon or tried.
But in that case, it doesn't even come from the engines.
If you look at those aircraft and you identify them, all I can say is they are commercial-type aircraft.
I'm not saying they're commercial aircraft because I can't see.
I can't see the people.
I can't see the markings with my equipment.
Mr. Garner, what about this?
They are commercial-type equipment, and I will clearly say that the evidence actually strongly, more than strongly, implicates the involvement and collusion and incorporation of the commercial airline industry within this operation.
Let me add something here.
I have seen one jet flying at the same altitude just a few miles away here in Austin not leaving trails that stay there for an hour or two or leaving no trail at all and right next to it a jet leaving a trail that's there three hours later.
Now what does that say?
Yeah, you know, the classic arguments against these, and I'm familiar with most of them, but, you know, people will say, oh, you know, the planes are operating two different altitudes and the atmospheric conditions are different.
Sorry, folks, it just doesn't hold.
Anybody that digs into this seriously will see that, you know, the conditions that you're describing there are not at variance enough to describe the tremendous difference in what Alex is speaking of right now.
Well, I know what happened.
I mean, in the late 90s,
Now, what happens, to the best of my knowledge, Alex, is this...
In terms of the physics of what's going on.
When you ask the question, how could you have a, I can't call them clouds because they're not really clouds anymore, but let's use that term for right now.
Let's say you have a bank, a bank or layer at 35,000 to 40,000 feet.
The region that was traditionally home to thin, high, wispy clouds, and they would subsequently develop into fuller cloud forms that would descend to lower altitudes.
But the high altitudes, 35,000 feet, were reserved primarily for thin, wispy clouds and not a whole lot more.
You have to ask the question, how at 35,000 to 40,000 feet could you have a continuous thick layer start to develop?
And it is with the introduction of the salt, a certain type of salt, not just any salt.
But if you introduced a salt that can absorb moisture when the humidity is roughly 30, 35%, which there are certain salts that do that, the type that I'm speaking of, now you change things because now you're able to collect and absorb moisture on extremely small particles.
And let's talk about clouds for a second because let's talk about a difference between two things.
Contrails, if you look at what a contrail is, contrails form.
It's, you know, what happens when you breathe on a cold winter day, right?
Stay there.
We'll have to talk about it when we get back.
We're up against a break.
Clifford Carnicom is our guest.
This is such an important subject because things have changed in our atmosphere.
There have been atmospheric changes to the planet.
The laws that we knew before, it seems, have been suspended.
And I've seen these trails down low.
We'll be right back.
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I think?
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All right, let's go back to Clifford Carnacom.
Clifford, we don't have a lot of time left.
It's going by so fast, and I appreciate you joining us.
Not only is there the harp effects of weapons or manipulation or conductivity of so many different things, anti-personnel on multiple levels, but it seems to be associated with weather modification.
When big storms are coming in for sure, you see these jets coming in even lower.
I mean, I've seen trails getting laid down at 10, 15, 5,000 feet.
Which I never saw before in the past, in front of the storms, knocking them out, stopping them.
A lot of researchers have pointed that out.
So can you comment on some of the other aspects of this?
I'd say that's absolutely true, what you're saying there.
Did you want me to elaborate on that part or go on to the other areas?
Any area you think is important, I'm going to elaborate.
Well, first would be to corroborate and confirm what it is you're saying there.
There clearly is a very definite association with weather fronts in terms of these operations.
Moisture is absolutely being altered, moisture patterns.
You know, the claim that these are benevolent operations has just never worked from the data side.
If I could see that in the data, I would raise that scenario, but it doesn't fit.
Everything here shows a covert operation, which has a malevolent effect on both the planet as well as those who live upon it.
Moisture is being altered.
Storm systems are being affected and manipulated.
And, you know, it's a real curious thing, but if you actually look at these explanations, they don't make any sense at all in terms of what's offered here.
They'll say that these things are being conducted during times of high humidity.
I've looked at the humidity here, and I've looked at it up high with all the balloons.
I've looked at it all the way up to 50,000, even 100,000, whatever those balloons go up 65,000 feet.
We do not have high humidity up there, and the lies that are being put forth about supposedly this is happening in a high humidity environment, it doesn't hold water at all.
And as a matter of fact, talking about association with storms, I did quite a bit of work to actually try and determine what is the pattern?
When are these planes coming in?
And something happened that I didn't even expect, actually.
Well, stay right there.
We've got a break.
Tell us about that.
Big Brother.
Big Brother.
Mainstream media.
Government cover-ups.
You want answers?
Well, so does he.
He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
He made a very powerful film, Aerosol Crimes and Cover-Up.
Put it out for free on chemtrails.
One large part of the manipulation of our environment, the poisoning of the population.
Your calls are coming up in the next segment at 1-800-259-9231.
Clifford Carnicum, Ben Livingston flew into hurricanes.
He flew into the even bigger storms they have in the Pacific, the typhoons.
Stanford Research Facility certified his work for the Navy.
He was the head of their big weapons research facility that they were able to kill and knock down hurricanes in the late 60s.
But then our government says, oh, they know nothing about it, and there's nothing they can do about hurricanes.
So we know they're being secretive.
If they can knock down hurricanes...
We also know that they can empower and increase the power of hurricanes.
Livingston over Vietnam, with just a few planes, would take tiny clouds and cause 10 feet of rain to fall, flooding people on the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
So we know they can manipulate the weather even with seating technologies.
You add into this other technologies, it's powerful.
What do they appear to be doing with these chemical sprays with the weather?
What does their goal appear to be?
Well, I think from a military perspective, certainly if one has the ability to control or manipulate the weather, that's a huge military advantage.
And you said that you were shocked.
You said that you were shocked when you did some observations of when the planes came in.
Well, I think this would come to a surprise to many people.
Tell us about that.
But if you actually look at the data, if you find a paper I wrote called Ions and Humidity,
The big surprise to me here is that the timing of these operations actually occurs, appears to occur most likely, when the humidity is at, and I have to use the word, a local minimum.
What this means is low relative to before and after.
It doesn't mean in absolute sense low.
It means relative to what's happening before and to what's to transpire afterwards.
If you find these points, what you call a local minimum of humidity, this appears to be the most likely time that these operations are coming in.
That actually makes sense if you look at what's going on with what you're talking about.
That is the most advantageous time to come in.
It's right before the storm, not during the storm, but right before it comes in.
And I'm talking, my work will show periods of several hours, basically a window of two to three hours.
You can see that it is timed to get in there right at this absolute maximum advantage point of getting these particles in before the moisture comes in.
And I believe that would be so you would have maximum absorption, basically.
In your six, seven years studying this, is it getting more frequent?
Are the operations intensifying globally, nationally?
I would say the operation is full in effect.
This thing is in effect.
The change has been made.
And whether you want to call it a maintenance or a status quo, it would appear to me that we have a certain concentration level
That needs to be maintained at this point.
Certainly, and there also appears to be something seasonal that goes on.
The BBC, and I know you saw it, had a big photograph from space of England completely covered with what it called condensation trails, and then in the article it went on to say that NASA says the Earth is 20% darker, and then just put that there, didn't make any connection to condensation trails, just had that in the space photograph.
Absolutely, and one of the tests that I did was that straightforward.
I bought what's called a, made what's called a photometer,
I think so.
20 cent per reduction.
I mean, it's a straight physical thing.
You are affecting the energy and light that's affecting the Earth.
But you did see the NASA report that the Earth is now 20% darker than it was 30 years ago.
That's right, I have.
That's right.
And look at the photograph that NASA touts there as being what they call clutter.
They call it contrail clutter.
It's absolutely hilarious to think that these things would be forced... Yeah, they show the U.S., and it's a spider web, and they didn't do that until six, seven years ago.
Something has changed.
Stay with us.
Call's coming up.
It's here, after a year in production and traveling to distant lands.
My new film, Terror Storm, is complete.
Shocking declassified government documents prove that Western governments are orchestrating terror attacks against their own populations as a pretext to enslave them.
Terror Storm proves that not only was 9-11 an inside job, but the attacks of 7-7 in London were carried out by British intelligence.
Terror Storm chronicles the lies that took us to war in Iran.
A White House program to disseminate fake news.
NSA spies.
The latest 9-11 information and much, much more.
Terror Storm is the definitive guide to the history of government-sponsored terrorism.
It's an anthology of government crimes.
Terror Storm is a film that everyone who wants to be truly informed must see.
Get your copy today at InfoWars.com or PrisonPlanet.com or by calling toll-free 1-888-253-3139 or watch it right now online at PrisonPlanet.tv.
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And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
I will repeat, the government has declassified the fact that they, over 3,000 times from the 40s to the 70s, spread chemical, biological, and radiological weapons and other mixes on the American people.
They do it all the time now.
AIDS virus, hepatitis C, knowingly on purpose in the drugs.
Hundreds and hundreds of other examples I don't have time to get into.
Black men and syphilis, sterilizing 400,000 American women for no reason.
On and on and on.
So you've got these Malthusian, Dr. Pionkian.
Remember the UT scientist who gets the 95% standing ovation saying he wants to kill everybody?
Dr. Peter Singer, Prince Philip, Ted Turner, Prince Charles, the Club of Rome.
These are Henry Kissinger documents.
CIA.
All public.
I've got to make a film about this, population reduction.
In fact, that's on the burner to do.
I just am so crazy busy all the time.
We're going to try to do it, though, in my Bilderberg film that's coming out, whenever I get that done.
But this is the reality.
And so they are drying out the planet.
They are darkening the planet.
They are manipulating a whole bunch of stuff, a whole bunch of key areas of our biosphere.
And then you've got all the low-altitude spraying.
It's a whole other separate area.
Now, Clifford Carnicom is with us for another 20 minutes and 30 seconds, to be precise.
So let's go to your calls.
Please have your questions and your comments to be brief so the next person gets time.
Dave in California, thanks for holding.
You're on the air with Clifford Carnicom.
Thanks Alex.
Hi Mr. Carnicom and thank you for everything you do.
I have two data points for you.
I live in the Pacific Northwest and especially this last year I've been watching very closely.
What we're seeing here is off the coast at low level we're seeing multiple lay downs just in front of the marine layer when it comes on shore in the afternoon and evening.
Always in front of wet weather storms, and just this last year was happening in front of every storm that we had, and we had 150% of rainfall this year.
That's number one.
And number two, and this is really disturbing to me, I've noticed that we don't see any insects around here anymore at all.
There was white light on all night last night outside, and I went and looked this morning.
There were two little moths and a couple bugs circling the light.
That's
This is an area that's a wilderness.
There's almost nobody living here.
This place should be swarming with bugs.
There are reports that in industrialized nations, insect levels are way down.
Let me get a comment from Clifford Carnicombe.
I think good observations and exactly on mark, very much the case.
These operations are destroying these storms.
They're coming ahead of them and they're destroying the storms.
Are they trying to cause them to dump all their moisture before they get inland to the areas like Idaho and other areas?
I personally think that what you're actually doing is absorbing the energy from the storms and redirecting it.
In other words, trying to capitalize on that energy within a storm and to redirect it for other purposes.
What's the goal?
Why would they want to do this?
Energy is powerful.
Energy makes things happen.
If you can control energy, you can do things.
This is how weapons are created.
Directed energy weapons, ion weapons, plasma weapons.
Dave, I appreciate your call.
We're going to have to move on.
Great points.
Global warming.
We know that we're not really having global warming.
We're having global, very dangerous, fast-moving change.
Is what's happening.
Could the globalists be trying to create all sorts of climate shifts and huge disasters as a way to scare us into accepting this new global tax they're proposing through the global warming hysteria they're pushing?
Well, what I can say is they are happening.
It's hard for me to determine intent, but what I can say is what's happening.
You know, for a long time, you still find people, they're out there saying, this stuff is protecting the Earth, and this is cooling the Earth, and this is counteracting global warming.
And it is happening.
My work shows exactly the opposite.
If you look at the effects of these materials, the physics of these materials, it is expected...
It is expected that they heat up the earth.
Well, this is what I expect.
They dry it out and they heat it up.
They don't cool anything down.
They dry it up and they heat it up.
But if I had the power to manipulate the weather, I would have a federal bureau of it.
I would be announcing it.
They have these technologies.
I would be admitting it.
That's declassified.
But they cover them up and deny them.
That shows they don't want people looking at this.
Our government right now could have killed Hurricane Katrina and Rita.
Our government didn't.
The question is, why?
Yeah, you know, it's a combination of both of these things, both as well as covering it out, as well as manipulating how it is released to the public.
You know, we're now at the point where you have a bill, and apparently this thing is just, you know, in position.
Yeah, the Weather Control Board, yeah.
Yeah, you have a bill on board to basically legalize that which is already being done upon us, which is the way this situation commonly works.
My senator, Kay Bailey, is pushing it.
Yeah.
So, I mean, that's there.
But then you tell the general public still they can control the weather, and they're going, oh, little green man, too.
Let's go ahead and talk to George in Indiana.
George, you're on the air.
Yeah, I live in central Indiana, and they seem to do all their spraying at night, because when I get up to about daybreak, I see them all in the air.
I mean, like...
Wow, Grand Central Station in the skies, you see streams everywhere.
And it wasn't there seven, eight years ago, was it, George?
Oh no, I'm 57, and I do know it's not, I don't know if it's just in my imagination, but it seems like the sun is a whole lot brighter than it was when I was a kid.
Well, that could be a lensing effect because of the atmospheric differential.
That's why the sun looks bigger on the horizon, because you're looking through the atmosphere at its thickest point over hundreds of miles, not just through the 20 miles straight up.
But what you just said is true.
NASA just announced that they thought the last 11-and-a-half-year cycle was the biggest ever.
Now they're reporting the sun is online to be 50% brighter in the next cycle.
Go ahead, Clifford.
Well, the UV, the ultraviolet indices, are up.
It's so interesting.
You can actually look at a lot of the popular claims that are out there, and you can actually gauge that, indeed, it may be an intentional disinformation mode to do so.
You know, they'll claim that this material is somehow... It's always somehow.
You know, the mechanics and physics are never really explained.
It's just somehow this has to be helping.
Clifford, before I forget, did you see the big write-up on the federally written textbook where they tell the kids that the government's putting a sunscreen up there to keep us safe?
I absolutely did.
I absolutely did.
Give us your take on that.
Manipulation, indoctrination...
Influence in the population to accept a state of affairs as being normal.
That's a textbook being used nationwide, written by the government, that is used by 8th graders.
Yes.
Yes.
You know, I was at the bookstore just a couple weeks ago, and I go through meteorology books occasionally and such.
You have a meteorology book out there now, which has a whole new generation.
I'm not going to call them clouds.
I use three words.
I use contrails, clouds, and aerosols.
I actually don't use the word chemtrails.
In this meteorology book, you will find now an entire new generation of constructed forms, and I won't even call them clouds because they don't qualify.
They don't qualify.
They did not exist.
Go pick up the aviation charts pre-'90 and look at the cloud forms that are there in the textbooks, aviation books, meteorology books.
Go look at what's being described now to the kids in popular literature in terms of cloud types and infinite variations
Of things that have no physical basis unless you introduce a water-loving salt material that completely changes the dynamics.
Changing our atmosphere.
They're terraforming Earth to make it a desert planet, sir?
Well, it is what's happening.
We're being reverse terraformed.
Are you saying that's a good term?
All I can say is this material is locking up the moisture that would be going into our water table.
It is locking that moisture up.
And there is energy that is being held within those.
So is this the opposite of, say, taking Mars and making it green?
I'm saying, is this a type of terraforming?
Well, it fits, Alex, I'll say that.
It fits if you're changing the climate of the Earth on a global level, and the water levels are being altered.
Then what is that other than, you know, I'm not going to say again, that's an intent, I can only go into it, but what's the result?
The result is yes.
Terraforming means changing the Earth, right?
All right, let's take another call.
Thank you, George.
Tom in Texas, you're on the air.
Go ahead, Tom.
Yes, this is Tom in Texas, and I'd like to say I've been watching these since 99.
I've made some personal observations over long periods of time.
I can tell you some of the places these planes fly in and out of.
As a matter of fact, I can tell you the fuel companies who contract to fuel them.
In Wichita, Kansas, I watched 40 modified KC-135s that have the, used to be a four-engine aircraft modified, but the two engines on the wing, the more powerful engine, come in and refueled by Grondyke aircraft.
I've seen them at the Tinker Air Force Base, come in there as many as a dozen of them in three groups.
They seem to run in groups of 40.
Also in Lincoln, Nebraska.
I've collected also the spider web residual after these things two years ago.
Are you a truck driver?
No, I'm not a truck driver.
This is Tom.
I'm just an observer, you might say.
Tom is wondering how you've been all these places.
Oh, well, I was at a funeral in Kansas when I observed these things.
First of all, like I said, I've been watching them, so I did a little traveling to follow the ones that were going north and south.
Thank you.
We had more of these spiderwebs dangling.
I've collected some.
I've put them in vials.
Well, here's an example.
I was out at the Austin-Bergstrom Airport about five years ago.
And I wasn't poo-pooing chemtrails, but I was poo-pooing the spiderweb.
And I'm there, and under the streetlights, these giant 20-foot wide, I was with Mike Hanson, spiderwebs are hitting us in the face.
And it was coming off from the planes.
Clipper Carnicom, what are these spiderwebs?
Man, that's another whole story we could do another whole show on.
But let's just say they're not spiderwebs.
They appear to be... Well, there's big questions here, I'll tell you.
I can say that they are associated with biological operations and the research I've done there.
They are definitely not spiderwebs.
Well, I know that coming out three years ago, DARPA told the Baltimore Sun that they may put up towers with electromagnetic fields to make us behave better.
Did you see that?
No, I didn't see that one, Alex.
Baltimore Sun, we're going to mind control you.
I'm sorry.
Okay, thank you, caller.
We'll come back in the final segment with Leverkarner.com and talk to Eleanor and others that are patiently holding.
I mean, this is bizarre stuff going on, but everything's bizarre.
I mean, everything's crazy.
Hillary Clinton is talking about making a steak brain chips.
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Alex Jones has graciously agreed to stay with us about 5-10 minutes into the next segment, so we have plenty of time to take more calls.
Right now, before we go to Eleanor and, of course, Jack Blood, we're going to go to him as well here in just a moment.
I heard he's going to be calling in.
Let's talk to Danny in Florida, who says he's an airline pilot.
Danny, welcome to the Airwaves.
You're on the air right now with Clifford Carnicombe.
Alex.
Hi.
I have two questions.
The first one is, is it possible for normal aircraft
Airplane contrails to stay small and not dissipate, because I've observed that phenomenon for over 30 years.
And the second question is, if they're using commercial airplanes, what would be the chemical they're adding to the jet fuel?
Is it possible for a contrail to stay?
Yes.
As a matter of fact, if you look at a paper I did related to humidity,
If the humidity is high enough, indeed, it's possible to linger essentially indefinitely.
Unfortunately, those conditions don't actually exist or occur too often.
Well, I just want to say, I had never seen it until the late 90s, and I know that if it's really, you know, a lot of humidity, it's cold, you can just get ice crystal trails up there, as you know well, but you're a pilot.
And again, I'm not saying everything is a trail, every plane's doing it.
I'm saying there is some type of weird program going on from all the evidence we have.
I mean, you're a pilot, Danny.
Do you ever walk outside
I just see days where it's nothing but trails and they're below 10,000 feet because, believe me, brother, I've taken photos of it.
I agree.
I've seen where the spring and the trails spread and cover the whole sky, but I've also seen days that are not very frequent where you'll have a small trail created and it'll just not dissipate, but it remains small.
What do other airline pilots think about it?
What do you think about it?
I agree with you 100%.
There's a biological component to it, and there's a weather modification component to it.
In terms of the second question, in terms of the chemicals, I never use the word chemtrail because there's no real basis for that at this point.
What can be accurately assessed is that they are aerosols.
Certain elements have been repeatedly identified at ground level.
But it's really not quite fair to extrapolate that to the direct source until that's done properly.
But nevertheless, in terms of what compounds are there, it appears as though it would be feasible if the materials are small enough.
Again, we need the information here, but from my side, it appears as though it would be feasible if materials are small enough, and we are speaking at the submicron level, that a fuel system could be developed.
There is certainly strong evidence of delivery systems
That have existed.
But in terms of the grand scale operation, we don't have a bird's eye view of the source, but it is feasible to me that at the sub-micron level you could be dealing with a fuel modification.
What about the photos on the web we've seen that have spray nozzles on them?
Are those real photos?
Are you speaking of my photos?
Well, I've just seen them on the web over the years.
Anybody that claims any photographs showing nozzles and such, to me at this point,
All right.
All right.
All right.
No, I can't say that I have seen that.
But I have seen, as you have, Alex, the trails that start out small and spread and then cover the whole sky.
So they're definitely doing this.
Had you seen that before the late 90s?
No.
No, I mean, that's all I'm saying, folks.
Something changed.
I don't know what it is.
Thank you for the call.
Let's go to Jack Blood.
Jack Blood hosts a show right after this one every day.
Jack, what's on your mind?
Hey, Alex, thanks for having Clifford on the program with you today.
And this really shows how brave you are, how brave Clifford is.
I wanted to ask a question about provocateurs, because Clifford...
I've used your information and a lot of my listeners have posted that on message boards.
We have been attacked by organized groups on the Internet.
I don't want to mention any names.
We've also found that there is a key person at NASA who has nothing better to do than to scour the Internet looking for people talking about this.
I've actually had, you know, violence threats.
I've had arson at my home for talking about this chemtrail situation, and specifically using your work.
So I'd like to hear you, if you could, speak about the real movement to just shut us up, no matter what they have to do.
Anything happen to you like that, Jack Liver?
How would we say this?
I have never been physically attacked, I would say that.
What he speaks of is very true, very accurate.
There are organized efforts at both containing this information so that it only flows through certain channels in certain ways.
There are organized efforts to ridicule and discredit those who are attempting to pursue or promote an investigation on this issue.
The efforts to control this are very real.
I'll simply say I have not been physically attacked.
All right, Jack, anything else?
Proof that we're really on to something here.
They're trying to shut us up.
Hey, thank you guys for the work, and Clifford, I'd love to have you on my show sometime.
All right, we'll be right back.
Final segment, Clifford Connercom.
More calls.
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Great guy.
Clifford Carnacom, what about the different weathermen?
There have been several meteorologists, aggrieved meteorologists, that have gone public, you know, who work for TV stations, saying that they can clearly see the jets flying and blocking weather, and that they're seeing weather patterns that they've never seen in their careers, and in some cases spanning decades, and then, you know, back to college, that there are new types of clouds, that new things are happening.
What's your take on their comments and what they bring to the plate?
Well, the physics of the atmosphere have been changed.
They've been altered.
So the game is not really the same as we know it.
And, you know, the fascinating thing is that a child growing up now, you know, the question of what is normal comes up.
It's quite interesting, but a child growing up now would never even know or have the memories that we have as adults.
And this is now their frame of reference.
And, you know, history is written by the victors.
That statement, you can pretty much create whatever world you want.
My last question for you before we take three final calls is, getting outside the science, getting outside just your research, what do you, bottom line, think it's really all about?
What do you think the government is doing?
If I'm pressed to offer a single word that encapsulates and describes what I see happening here, I have to use the word control.
It's the best I can do.
Well, for those that don't know, we are really a spaceship.
People go, a spaceship?
Yes.
We are a third planet from the sun, orbiting a standard sun, two-thirds of the way out on the spiral arm of the Milky Way galaxy.
Life lives in a very thin little layer, really the first 10,000 feet of the atmosphere.
Above that, you have major oxygen narcosis problems.
Life lives in the first 10,000 feet, a very thin veneer around the globe, and weather manipulation is admitted, patented, documented.
The U.S.
government totally admits it.
And then there's all these other programs going on, so people need to stop denying this.
Yeah, you have it exactly right, Alex.
And I really don't, you know, Al Gore in his film, at least to his credit, he did make a point of it.
And that is, I don't think people have any idea how fragile this atmosphere is.
It's an eggshell that's around us.
And we have changed it.
And I see it as a threat to the viability of this planet as a whole.
Well, the way I heard one biologist put it that we interviewed was, I heard my dad put it the same way, we're basically like fish.
I mean, we're swimming in a gas.
We live in a gas.
The ocean is just a, you know, thicker body.
H2O, that molecule, but they basically swim in their gas.
It's not really a gas, but people get my point.
We are swimming in gas.
We are living in gas, a 10,000-foot layer.
We live in a 10,000-foot deep water.
I mean, are you getting my analogy?
You're exactly right.
Are you willing?
This is a general question to everyone.
Are you willing to have your atmosphere sacrificed?
For the intentions that are undeclared and unknown, are you willing to sacrifice both your atmosphere and potentially the world?
I remember watching a Discovery Channel program, I think it was called Trinity, out there at the Trinity grounds where they tested the nukes, and they had a line in there where they were shooting in one night something like 20 huge hydrogen bombs into the upper atmosphere and detonating them, and they said that they thought it might ignite the world's atmosphere, but they were still going to do it.
I mean, what is the mindset of these people?
That's right.
You know, there may come a time, the way we're headed, where you won't have the opportunity to even address the question or answer the problem if you're not willing to act now.
I'm not willing to make that sacrifice.
Do you think these... I'm sure you've heard of the UT professor that says we all need to die, including his family.
Dr. Bianca, I mean, do you think this fits into the whole population control agenda?
Again, I may not be able to ascribe intent, but what I can say is that it is expected that there will be increased mortality as well as the potential of a huge host of unknown pathogens that we are subject to, and this is not based on speculation.
There's a whole arena of biological
Well, I forget.
I forget I've seen so much.
There are links to the NASA website off the sites.
It may have been carnicom.com.
We've got to hurry here, folks.
I'm going over.
Where it'll show NASA photos 20 years ago, 10 years ago, there's no spiderwebs, and then you look now at Africa, Europe, England, and it's cobwebs of trails, and they say, oh, it'll say increased jet travel has caused this.
Yes, and I have to dismiss that phrase because, unfortunately, the debunkers have their little methods and their little phrases.
And the spider web thing, it doesn't apply.
And it appears as though we're dealing with a polymer is the best that I can come up with right now.
No, no, no.
I meant the satellite photos where there's these webs of trails.
Oh, just the webs of the planes, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, very true.
Yeah, and that's, again, I believe the processes of indoctrination are very much in place.
All right, I know you've got to go in just a moment.
Let's just rampage through these calls.
Eleanor in Tennessee, thanks for holding her on the air.
Well, Alex, in the late 90s, I lay on the ground outside and observed fixed-wing aircraft, two of them, one going back and forth one way in one area of the sky, another going back and forth in another area of the sky.
They were long enough that I could see they had a canister on either side of the aircraft behind the front wings.
From those canisters came these clouds of whatever.
With whatever was being spewed out, the planes were going back and forth over an area, expressing the substance, till the sky is full of trails.
Within four or five hours, the trails spread out.
They come together to form what I call a blanket over the sky.
I had read where the Russians used such during World War II to keep the Germans from
Thank you, Alex.
Thank you.
You want to comment on what you just said?
Just in my case, in my particular area here, all of my work, I've measured it over and over, and I'm a pretty good judge of altitude.
I was a surveyor in the past.
All of my work here is at high altitude.
There are no planes that fly low here.
If there were, you can bet that I would have some photographs of what's happening.
So those folks that are at advantageous
Okay.
And some of it's real.
Some of it, you know, is legitimate, though we've caught them doing biological, chemical, radiological tests with this as a cover.
But two months ago, I'm listening to the radio, Southwest Austin today, don't be alarmed if you see small aircraft spraying.
They're trying to kill, I believe it was the Chinese something, boar beetle or something.
And then, oh, there's a deadly mosquito in Corpus Christi when I was down there fishing, and so you'll see planes spraying.
So there are other planes out spraying legitimately.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, how long have we been living with
Crop dusters and agricultural control, sure.
But I'm not saying that's what she saw.
I mean, I'm not poo-pooing her.
Sure, I mean, I'm not poo-pooing her either.
I'm just, sometimes there's real stuff going on.
Exactly.
Very fast, let's talk to Mike in Texas and then Liam, and that's it.
Mike, go ahead.
Oh, thanks a lot, Alex.
God bless y'all for the work that you're doing.
I just want to say, a couple of years ago, I was looking at what you call a chemtrail in the sky.
It was only spring where there was currently cloud cover.
You know, so a lot of people look up and they're like, okay, that's just a contrail from a plane.
But in this case, it was just on.
Then you turn it off for a little bit, get up to another cloud.
Well, maybe that was the cloud he put there.
But spray again.
Oh, yeah.
What about this phenomenon in the photos and video that have been shot where they're just turning them on and off?
I have a classic photo of that, one of the early ones that was taken, which is used to make this point.
Sure.
And that is, in some cases, it's clearly, let's say, artificially controlled and distributed.
And that particular photo I'm talking about, let me say there was a great deal of interest by certain parties to try and identify the location, source, and timing of that photograph.
And I know that there was a clear effort to want to identify that particular pilot of that particular plane at that time because it's a rather incriminating photograph if you look at it taken up in Colorado.
And the explanations of...
Variation in meteorological conditions.
Well, you'll see stuff, too, when they're flying these grid patterns is when they get to the end and they're ready to make their turn, they turn off.
Then when they turn back around to go back, it turns back on.
These are systematic operations.
Now, they're very complex, extremely complex.
And nobody has a complete handle on exactly the logistics of it.
But they are systematic.
Last caller, Lee in Pennsylvania.
You're on the air, Lee.
Hi, Alex.
Clifford, I have a news release I just sent over to Alex's website.
It's about oily gunk on homes.
Oily substances on Saturday were showered upon their homes and cars, and it's an oily residue that all the neighborhoods, the whole township,
Got sprayed with some kind of mist.
Well, that happens all the time, and they try to claim that it's sewage matter from malfunctioning planes, but what do you do when a whole town gets covered with green or black goo?
Clifford, we've seen hundreds of these cases.
What is that?
I can't speak for an oily residue, but what I can speak for is a failure.
No matter what the material is, if you have airborne materials that are unexplained that pose a potential health risk or a potential pollution risk,
It seems quite reasonable that those involvement agencies should be responsible for analyzing them.
EPA has failed us tremendously on this regard.
Fish and Wildlife comes out and tests every week for the fish and all these other groups running around, but why won't they test this?
Well, exactly.
The EPA refuses to test this filament material, fibrous material that I'm speaking of.
They refuse to test it.
What do they say when you talk to them?
Pardon me, Alex?
What do they say when you talk to them?
Boy, folks should look into their correspondence.
I have it all on the website.
Their classic line was, we refuse to analyze any unsolicited material, basically saying if they didn't ask for it,
They don't have any obligation to identify.
Now, you've done some tests, haven't you?
I've done quite a bit of testing.
That's a big part of my work over here.
What have you found the spider webs are?
Well, first would be that they're not spider webs.
They are a most unique filament.
They don't satisfy any natural explanation whatsoever.
They are at the submicron level.
Asbestos fibers are two microns or less.
Most fibers are 10, 12 microns.
These things are submicron in size.
There are biological components that have been repeatedly identified within these fibers.
We don't know what they are properly, but I've done quite a bit of analysis, and my work is up there.
There probably is 300, 200 pages, I would guess, at least, analysis of these fibers up there.
Yeah, okay, so I may have been cut off there, but there's been quite a body of research that's been done there to analyze it from the perspective that I can.
A private lab was consulted at one point at paid cost, and they issued a report which could clearly be shown to be false.
They were addressed in person for the failure of that report, and they terminated that meeting at the very early part of it.
They said this meeting is now over as soon as I raise the objections as to why that report was false.
Ladies and gentlemen, we're here back live.
And that never happens unless we're getting into really key information.
I'm down here in Austin, Texas.
They're up in Minnesota.
Clever Carnicon, I guess I need to go ahead and say bye to you now.
I am back, though.
I'm here with you.
Are you there?
Thanks very much, Alex.
I'll get out of the way.
They're not feeding me your audio right now.
If I can list an 800 number where people can get a copy of the documentary.
We're going to go ahead and go back to music.
And thank you for joining us.
Well, I know what's right I got just one life In a world that keeps on pushing me around But I'll stand my ground And I won't back down
Alex Jones here via telephone.
We'll try to
Better work this out.
This only happens when we have key guests on.
But I'm sure it's us.
I'm sure it's all a technical thing.
Clifford, in closing here, I want to thank you for coming on and joining us today.
I really appreciate you spending time with us.
Go ahead and give out that toll-free number so people can get a copy of your film.
Alex, thanks very much for all that you've done today.
I appreciate it very much.
This phone number is for Harriet Fell.
She is helping to get this documentary out at cost.
There is no profit to be made with this.
The phone number is 1-800-335-7226.
And I appreciate that very much.
You bet.
Where do you see things going in the future, Clifford?
You say you're working on something new in closing here.
Give us an idea what it is.
This issue of this disease that has emerged over the past several years, the popular term being given is Mergelin's disease.
There's a serious topic of research here that needs a lot of help, and I may be contributing to that.
Do you think the two are connected?
Because we have the reports of these tiny fibers, and then that's what's reported to be coming out of skin, and then we have real serious doctors.
Talking to people and, you know, removing it where clearly there's been no incision.
It's just somehow in them.
It's possible they're connected, and I guess that's the very question.
I'm not trying to draw a connection before it's there, but I think it's valid to raise that question.
And what we can say is that that issue is being managed.
Mergelin's issue is being managed exactly in the same way that this issue has been managed.
Basically calling people delusional.
All right, Clifford Carnicom, thank you so much for joining us.
Thanks a whole lot, Alex.
Bye-bye.
You bet.
It is not delusional that they knowingly for 10 years put AIDS virus and HIV in hundreds of thousands of hemophiliacs, blood supply here in the U.S., tens of thousands in Canada, and hundreds of thousands worldwide.
It is not a conspiracy theory that they gave black men syphilis.
It is not a conspiracy theory they nerve-gassed U.S.
troops.
It is not a conspiracy theory.
So all of this is open for discussion.
And anybody that tells you you shouldn't look into something has got a serious problem.
We'll be back with the final segment.
Infowars.com is the website.
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Well, there's no real terrorist threat outside what criminal elements of the government are carrying out.
Here's a story out of News 7 out of Denver, Colorado.
Marshals, innocent people placed on watch lists to meet quota.
Marshals say they must file one surveillance detection report, or SDR, per month.
When you're put in a terrorist database, you could be on a sheer government database on which list for simply taking a picture on an airplane.
Some federal air marshals say they're reporting your actions to meet a quota, even though some top officials deny it.
The air marshals' identities are being concealed, told 7 News.
They go risk their careers, everything to tell this, and the feds say, oh, it's not true, because they're so trustworthy.
The air marshals' identities are being concealed, told 7 News.
They were required to submit at least one report a month.
If they don't, there's no raise, no bonus, no awards, and no special assignments.
Innocent passengers are being entered into an international intelligence database of suspicious persons.
By the way, they've told me I'm on this.
Acting in a suspicious manner or on an aircraft, and they did nothing wrong, said one federal air marshal.
Well, that's the whole plan in a secret police society.
It isn't about stopping terror.
It's about getting us all in databases.
We're good to go.
We're good to go.
We're good to go.
American Scholars Symposium, 9-11 Neocon Agenda, roundtable discussion, panel discussion we had three-plus weeks ago.
They claim this Saturday, 8 p.m.
Eastern, C-SPAN 1, American Perspectives.
But they still haven't posted it on the schedule.
And the reason I'm concerned is they said, or it might be the next week.
So they're trying to make us basically forget about all this, or the war in Iran is going to kick off and this isn't going to happen.
Who knows?
It's just normally they air something within two weeks.
So call in to C-SPAN Washington Journal every morning and say, hey, when is that going on the schedule?
Hey, when is that?
Infowars.com.
And I'm asking you, the listeners, to call into all the mainstream radio talk shows, the truth talk shows, the patriot talk shows, and tell them about Terror Storm.
Tell them about my new film.
If you've seen it, if you like it on DVD or on the web.
If this is going to get promoted, if this is going to have an effect, it is really up to you to help us out with it.
So post it on message boards, email it to your friends, tell them they can watch it at prisonplanet.tv or call toll-free and get your copy and start making copies.
The power of you, the listeners, getting my videos and making copies and getting them out to people is just so wonderful.
And I've never made a film this good.
I'm so proud of it.
I hope you'll get it.
My other films are excellent as well.
Martial Law, Order of Death, Road to Tyranny, Masters of Terror.
They're all excellent.
1-888-253-3139 is the toll-free number to order.
1-888-253-3139.
Or you can simply write to me.
I'm Alex Jones at 3001 South Lamar, Suite 100, Austin, Texas, 78704.
So see it online at prisonplanet.tv, or call toll-free 888-253-3139, or order a hard copy right now at infowars.com.
I'll be back tonight, 9 to midnight.
Back tomorrow, 11 to 2.
More big guests throughout the week.
Vital information as we chronicle the New World Order's criminal activities here Monday through Friday, 11 to 2.
And you heard it, back from 9 to midnight.
Now get out there, expose the terrorists, be bold, be strong.
They're doing a lot of crazy, bizarre stuff.
The sky's the limit, literally.
If you can think of it, and it's horrible, it's worse, what they're doing.
That's what I've found.
And so we've just got to expose them, we've got to fight them.
There are more of us than there are of them.
God bless you all.
Copies of the preceding broadcast are available at GCNlive.com or call toll-free 877-376-45.