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Filename: 20051017_Mon_Alex.mp3
Air Date: Oct. 17, 2005
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	Big Brother.
	Mainstream media.
	Government cover-ups.
	You want answers?
	Well, so does he.
	He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
	Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.
	It is Monday, the 17th day of October 2005.
	We're going to be live for the next three hours, and my producer's gone absolutely crazy today.
	We have five guests coming up, and we'll even squeeze some phone calls in coming up in about 30 minutes.
	Jeff Norman, Executive Director of U.S.
	Tour of Duty, former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, and Gold Star mom who lost her son in Iraq, Nadia McCafferty.
	And then coming up in the middle of the broadcast, in an hour and a half, Nate Blakeslee, former editor of the Texas Observer, he wrote the Tulia story for the Observer in 2000.
	His new book, Tulia, Race, Cocaine, and Corruption in a Small Texas Town, will be telling you the latest developments on Tulia and his new book with an inside view of it.
	This is where they would just randomly, literally come in and just swoop up whole streets of black people
	And drag them off, be put in private prisons building widgets.
	No drugs found, no nothing.
	This is your loving government, and this can happen nationwide to everyone.
	And then at 1 o'clock, Vicki Karp, voting activist with the Coalition for Visible Balance.
	You know, I had a chance a few weeks ago to hear a speech Vicki had given locally on the radio.
	It was aired, the entire speech.
	And the way she just systematically went through the admitted fraud with these electronic, touch screen, no record voting machines.
	And even the optical scan systems are fed through these systems, through these machines.
	And I thought, you know, we haven't talked enough about election fraud and the system that's being put in place since 2004, the end of the last election.
	It's time to
	Time to bring some of the great folks on that are fighting this.
	So Vicki Karp will be joining us in the third hour for much of the third hour.
	Senior military torture investigator has been found dead.
	Investigating all of the torture.
	Ah!
	Well, you had a bad day, didn't you?
	Also, how is Karl Rove dealing with the open discussions of his impending indictment?
	Well, the latest information is that Rove is out threatening judges, you name it.
	Washington insider Rove threatens indictment of judge with consequences.
	Threatens indictment judge with, quote, consequences.
	And Time Magazine talks about Rove's contingency plan.
	The president's advisor may step aside if indicted in the Valerie Flame case.
	Oh, boy.
	And again, George Bush is just a puppet, so if the globalists do decide to remove Bush, the party just continues on, but now we have to learn the names of all the new players who are the new frontmen.
	They did the exact same thing with Nixon and many others.
	Wilma ties Atlantic hurricane season record.
	The 05 Atlantic hurricane season record tied a 72-year-old record for the busiest ever with the formation of a tropical storm, Wilma, today.
	We'll tell you about that as well, what Wilma is threatening.
	Rape up while murder's down, so there's the good and the bad.
	Rape up while murder's down in 04.
	And Chinese spacecraft is back to Earth and they're welcomed as heroes.
	Meanwhile, Matt Drudge is saying it's fake and that he could do a better job with Photoshop.
	Well, we know you have before, Drudge, so certainly you're an expert in these type of things, so we'll take your word on that.
	And we'll go over what he's saying with that report.
	We've got a link to it up on Infowars.com right now.
	Iraqi civilians killed in U.S.
	bombing.
	We'll also talk about a lot of new surveillance technologies coming out.
	It's all coming up on the other side of this break.
	Stay with us.
	Alex Jones here announcing the release of my new film, Police State 3 Total Enslavement.
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	Big Brother.
	Mainstream media.
	Government cover-ups.
	You want answers?
	Well, so does he.
	He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
	Welcome, my friends.
	Eight minutes, 30 seconds.
	We're now in the second segment of this Monday edition, the 17th day of October.
	05, a lot of big guests coming up today.
	We'll be documenting the electronic voting machine fraud being put in place nationwide.
	I mean, if you were powerful politicians and their private, corporate handlers and owners, wouldn't you want to seize control of the voting systems and have absolute power?
	Well, the evidence is conclusive.
	They would, and they have.
	We'll also talk about the latest corruption involving Lord Cheney and Lord Bush and these ongoing indictment rumblings.
	And we've got former chief CIA analyst for Ronald Reagan, as well as George Bush Sr., Ray McGovern coming up, as well as the mother of a dead vet.
	He's criticizing Lord Bush.
	He's also part of Gold Star Veterans.
	That's all been hyped and made political.
	But regardless, this war is a fraud and needs to end.
	Really, nobody who's rubbing two brain cells together, who's got two brain cells to rub together, can deny that.
	But look at this news.
	Indonesia's president accuses Western intel of being behind the Bali bombings.
	Now, we have a giant section on Infowars.com and on PrisonPlanet.com about the Bali bombings on the eve of the invasion of Iraq.
	Extremely unpopular with the British and Australian people, and then a nightclub full of Brits and Aussies gets bombed.
	There are bombings of hotels.
	The FBI is in the hotel minutes before, but pulls out.
	Witnesses test and see Westerners involved with the planting of the bombs.
	They test the bombs, or test some of the detritus of the bombs, some of what the bombs had left behind.
	And, well, lo and behold, it was a type used by the U.S.
	military.
	And, of course, we've caught the British military.
	Running around dressed up like Arabs, shooting people with bombs and carrying out bombings, and we've caught the Israelis doing it, and it's been in all the big Israeli papers.
	So to even try to wade into this discussion takes hours, and we've done many broadcasts on it, and I do have an upcoming film that gets into these other cases of terrorism that were government-sponsored.
	But just interesting to see this article.
	Indonesian president accuses Western intel of being behind Bali bombings.
	An extraordinary documentary produced by Australian Public Television inside Indonesia's war on terrorism will be rebroadcast this evening.
	That means right now.
	In the program, which first aired on October 12th, the blind former president of Indonesia...
	Reportedly, more trusted than any other official in the country, told SBS TV Dateline Australia's state-run public TV that the horrendous Bali bombing, which killed more than 200 Indonesians, was planned and carried out by Indonesian police or military personnel at the behest of Western powers.
	Well, the Indonesian government admits that in the 60s and 70s and 80s,
	They carried out bombings all over the country and blamed it on their enemies.
	I mean, that's not even... That's the mainstream news right there.
	Again, it's like Herman Roosevelt, 30-something years after he carried out bombings and sniper attacks with thousands of hired thugs in 1953 in Iran...
	In the mid-80s, he goes on and does an NPR interview, which I've heard, in which they re-aired segments of just a couple years ago on NPR, where he brags about carrying out terror attacks to blame it on Mosaddegh.
	Again, for those that are tuning in for the first time, do you understand, this is not our opinion, 20, 30, 40 years after the fact, our government admits they've carried out terror attacks to blame it on their enemies in Europe.
	The Israelis admit they've done it.
	The British constantly do it.
	The Indonesians do it.
	The Italians do it.
	The Russians do it over and over again and have been caught red-handed.
	But in many of these cases, they don't even try to hide it now.
	They go on radio, like Herman Roosevelt did, and just brag about it.
	He's proud of blowing up mosques and blaming it on people.
	It's amazing.
	So now he's basically coming out and saying this.
	And by the way, about a year ago I had seen reports where he was saying this in Indonesian papers.
	It's just now getting a little bit of traction because it's been in a major British slash Australian news report.
	Now,
	Again, this is my frustration.
	This is why I go into overdrive so often.
	This is why I start frothing at the bit, chomping at the bit, because I could talk for the next three hours about this, but I don't have the time.
	I've got five guests coming up.
	But here it is.
	And, you know, last week I didn't even cover an article out of St.
	Louis where they announced that
	They're going to use your cell phone, the feds in the state are, in using Missouri as a test state, they're going to use your cell phones, not just transponders that are going to be in the inspection stickers that we barely beat this year in Texas, it would have been law next year, but they're still implementing despite not having a law, but side issue.
	Well, it's a corollary issue.
	I think?
	Where they are going to use transponders and the stickers and the inspection stickers and the cell phones and radio readers just different redundant systems to track everything you do and to tax you and that's going on here in the United States now being implemented.
	Now, no one is for this.
	Literally 99% of people are not for it.
	But the government just doesn't care.
	See, I thought it's a government of the people, for the people, by the people.
	Innocent until proven guilty.
	Due process.
	Bush, a few months ago, signed the order that all of your prescriptions, everything you buy that's prescription, whether it be a prosthesis, whether it be prescription-strength ibuprofen, everything you do, whether it be herpes medicine or a diaphragm,
	Everything you go, Prozac, Ritalin, whatever, is instantly uploaded to a federal database every time you do it.
	No pretense of Fourth Amendment.
	No pretense of privacy.
	Just zero.
	And I sat here beating my head up against a wall for the five years before they implemented it.
	Really, six years.
	In 2001, October 1st, 2001, all cell phones in the country by law that were to be sold from that point on
	Our satellite tracked down to 15 feet via cell towers.
	The cell towers triangulate, and then that's relayed to satellite, and then that's beamed to FEMA databanks that then share that data with local emergency management FEMA command bases that are really federal command bases that have been built all over the country.
	And I shot there after they passed the law that then was to be implemented in over the next five, six years.
	People would email me, laugh at me, criticize me.
	I had the law.
	We posted it.
	We warned people.
	And then three, four years after it goes into effect, there are articles every single day in USA Today and Associated Press and St.
	Louis newspaper last week.
	Oh, guess what?
	We're going to use your cell phone to track your every movement for your safety.
	Guess what?
	We're going to give you tickets with it.
	Guess what?
	The government's going to have computers listening to you over your cell phone, but don't worry, you won't be charged minutes for it.
	And don't try turning your phone off, because we can listen even with the phone off.
	It's designed that way.
	I mean, we willingly carry bugs around with us everywhere that track exactly where we're at.
	Not even a pretense of due process or privacy or anything.
	Meanwhile, the government's making everything they do sacred while leaving the borders wide open on top of it.
	And we now have foreign troops by the thousands, Dutch, British, and Mexican, in the New Orleans and surrounding areas.
	Precedent setting, again.
	Precedent setting stuff.
	Every day, I see conservatively 20 articles.
	It's more than that.
	Get a chip.
	It's good.
	Get a chip.
	And plant them.
	And take them.
	Now they're starting to say, kooks are against it.
	See, they just kept repeating it millions of times until now.
	We're all just sick of hearing about chips.
	And now they're adding, no matter how crazy it sounds, oh, weirdos don't like them.
	I have a couple articles today.
	Weirdos don't like them.
	See, now that's already started.
	Weirdos don't like them.
	Well, I'm not a weirdo.
	Missouri may track cell phones for traffic data.
	Here's the Casper Star Tribune.
	I've got Missouri on my mind from last week.
	This is Montana.
	I can't get my head straight.
	May track cell phones for traffic data.
	So it was Missouri last week, and Saudi Arabia, and Oregon, and now this week it's Montana.
	It never ends.
	Stacks of them.
	Stacks of them.
	Everything you do to be trapped.
	Total control.
	Taxation.
	We'll be right back.
	Stay with us.
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	I have an article to hear.
	I have articles out of St.
	Louis.
	I have articles out of Texas.
	I have articles out of Montana.
	Headline, Montana may track cell phones for data traffic collection.
	And it says that every move you make, everything you're doing, will be wirelessly tracked down to exactly where you are and relayed into a state grid to, quote, help other drivers.
	Get around traffic and problems.
	But of course, that's the Department of Transportation.
	Then you have the Department of Public Safety.
	They're going to be using it for law enforcement.
	And I was just talking to John Harmon there in the break, who's answering the phones and running the show, and he said that their big chain of grocery stores up there in Minnesota...
	That suddenly at all the self-checkout lanes, they've put the thumb scanners in.
	And we've read industry publications.
	What they say they're going to do is, first they pull out most of the service checkout lines, but at some Albertsons and some other stores here in Texas now, there'll be one line with service and there's nobody ever there.
	They literally have now forced people on.
	So first they pull out a few of these self-checkout lines.
	I'm having Freudian slips.
	I wish they would pull those out.
	First they pull out a few of these service checkout lines, and then they start pulling out more and more of them until it's all self-serve.
	Then they say there's fraud.
	Now, again, how did I, eight years ago, predict all of this?
	Because it was in industry trade pub locations.
	Not a crystal ball.
	Okay?
	You can go discover the prison they're building for you and your family as well.
	You can fight it.
	You just have to get involved and get informed and decide you don't want to be a slave.
	So then after they've got in the self-service lanes, and they phase out the other lanes, then the thumb scanners go in.
	And they say, oh, you'll get about a 10% discount on food and everything you buy if you thumb scan, if you enroll with us.
	And that's already begun.
	From upstate New York to certain areas of Texas to Minnesota, the reports are pouring in from London and in Berlin and Tokyo.
	And people are now signing up.
	They're enrolling.
	And then the next plan is, as we keep warning people, 2008, they're going to simply say, okay, you've got to enroll in this now because of identity fraud.
	Meanwhile, most identity fraud is caused by the companies buying and selling and trading huge chunks of consumer data with other companies.
	That is where the lion's share of identity theft happens.
	But they're going to convince you with the false data that this will keep you safe.
	Again, they create the crisis and offer you the solution.
	More shackles, more control.
	John, give us a brief little update on your major food store chain there in Minneapolis-St.
	Paul with the loving biometric scanners.
	What type of scanners?
	It's the pay-by-touch scanners.
	It's a thumb scan.
	Speak up for me there, sir.
	Is that better?
	Say that again?
	Yeah, that's better.
	Yeah, it's at Cup Foods.
	You go to the self-checkout lines, and it's called the pay-by-touch service, and it just automatically deducts right out of your bank account.
	Are people enjoying that?
	I haven't heard anybody sign up for it.
	They said on the news that they already had 2 million sign-ups, but I don't believe that.
	Well, what do you got in Minneapolis-St.
	Paul?
	About 3-4 million people?
	Uh, yeah.
	And so that would have to be that over half the entire metro area had just instantly signed up.
	I guess so, yeah.
	In fact, I remember that report about a month ago.
	I saw a text report.
	They claimed two million had signed up right there in those two cities alone.
	That's obviously pure bull.
	You know, we ought to go up there with a video camera and show no one using it, and then show how the newscasts are a bunch of liars.
	I was thinking about doing that, and maybe interviewing the manager and getting some more information about it.
	Well, if you went and did that, and I've...
	I'd put it on the website.
	I'd really appreciate it.
	And you know what?
	Don't ask.
	Never ask permission.
	Just show up with a video camera and then kind of just stand there by the aisles and show no one using it and then talk to people as they leave the store.
	Then a manager will come up and just tell him that you're doing a project and that you want a media project and that it is a project and that you want to talk to them.
	And maybe he'll talk to you.
	So you've been going to the grocery store.
	How long have these thumb scanners been in?
	I just noticed it in the past week, actually.
	So they're fairly new.
	But you were there in line?
	You didn't see people using them?
	Nope.
	Not one person.
	Let me guess.
	There are ten self-checkout lanes and two service lanes left, right?
	Yep.
	That's right.
	Okay.
	Let me keep guessing here.
	We'll be right back, folks.
	Stay with us.
	We're on the march.
	The Empire's on the run.
	Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.
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	Monday through Friday from 11 to 2 Central, back from 9 to midnight Central Standard Time.
	I'm Alex Jones, your host.
	Websites are Infowars.com and PrisonPlanet.com.
	We have the Infowar, because there's a war on for your mind attempting to stop these private, corporate, corrupt interests from turning our planet into a prison, hence PrisonPlanet.com.
	Coming up, more on the impending indictments of some of the crime bosses up there in the White House.
	We've got a little clip here.
	Crystal again for the second week in a row.
	This time elaborating even more.
	Rove and Libby may be indicted.
	So we'll play that clip here in a second.
	Just finishing up what I was talking about earlier.
	It's not my opinion.
	I've been to the biometric conferences.
	They come right here to Austin all the time.
	I have been reading their industry publications for a decade now.
	We're good to go.
	And it's a nightmare.
	So I have mainstream news articles from the Associated Press, Casper Star Tribune, you name it here, where every cell phone action you're doing is being tracked.
	You're being tracked down the road by your cell phone, being triangulated through local FEMA bases.
	The thumb scanners are going in the grocery stores everywhere.
	They're going to force you onto these.
	We'll be talking to John Harmon, who's running the board right now, coming up the next hour for a few minutes, finish up his story.
	Now the big grocery store is in Minneapolis-St.
	Paul.
	They phase out the service checkout lanes.
	Everybody's still trying to go to the one or two service lanes they've got.
	And then they just phase those out completely.
	That's now happening in Austin, and you don't have a choice.
	You've got to use self-serve, and then, oh, you've got a thumb scan.
	That's the next step.
	Why do they want this so badly?
	We'll explain it.
	Very dangerous.
	I mean, you talk about an Orwellian situation, this is it.
	And both parties are behind it.
	Big corporations are behind it.
	And they've got a lot of peaceniks going.
	This will cause a global air of peace.
	We'll all love each other after this happens.
	A lot of well-meaning people.
	This will end all crime.
	But what it'll do is bring in an air of tyranny the likes of which the globe has never seen.
	Can you imagine Hitler if he had these type of mechanisms?
	You build a government big enough to give you anything you want, it's big enough to take it all away.
	All right, I am digressing.
	It's just that this is all coming to pass now.
	Everything we read in industry publications a decade ago is now happening, and it is slavery.
	For the next 45 minutes or so, I'm really honored to be joined by an individual who we've had on several times before.
	I had a chance to interview him for a documentary that I've got coming out soon, as well as many of you have already seen it on the TV show or at prisonplanet.tv.
	Former high-level CIA analyst in the Reagan and Bush 41 administrations.
	And, of course, that's Ray McGovern.
	He's been an outspoken critic of the faulty, well, I shouldn't call it faulty, the lies, the manufactured intelligence to go to war, and many other issues.
	And then, of course, Jeff Norman, Executive Director of U.S.
	Tour of Duty, he's been organizing all over the country to have speeches and expose this and have rallies.
	And Jeff, of course, was grabbed by Rumsfeld's goons for asking the God a question at a press conference.
	And then, of course...
	We are also joined by Gold Star mom, Nadia McCaffrey, who is, of course, with us under sad circumstances, but at least she is bringing good out of the bad, trying to save other people's sons and daughters.
	Her son was killed as part of this whole...
	I am.
	I'm glad to be with you, Alex.
	Now, obviously with three of you on here, we've got to kind of crystallize the information you're bringing forward, but why are you here in Austin?
	You bet.
	Well, this evening we're speaking at the LBJ Senate for Public Policy at 7 o'clock.
	It's going to be a discussion with those who are in general support of the war and those of us who think that the war was misguided from the outset and that we ought to figure out ways to get out.
	Who are they going to have up against you?
	I'm not sure, Alex.
	Jeff would be the expert on that.
	I understand it's a professor that may have spent some recent time in Iraq.
	Well, I got a chance to hear one of their professors.
	We actually went to one of their meetings a few months ago, and he was calling for putting all Arabs in America in concentration camps.
	That was his term, and he called for a new world order
	And to really strike at them at another one of these little LBJ functions.
	Let's bring Jeff Norman in, then we'll bring in, of course, Nadia.
	Jeff, you guys are here in Austin, and this isn't your first trip here to Austin.
	We've been, of course, have been visited by Mr. McGovern in the last few months as well.
	Why are you guys here in Austin?
	Well, we're here to tell the truth and get the information out there that is otherwise being ignored or distorted.
	And you're right, we were here in August while Cindy Sheehan was down in Crawford.
	And the enthusiasm was so great that we came back this soon.
	And I can clarify who is on the program tonight, if you'd like.
	Yeah, tell us about it.
	Okay, Nadia and Ray will be speaking against the war.
	And the two people who are in favor of the war, one is Trampas Crowe, who is...
	A graduate student, actually, at the LBJ School, and he is also an Iraq veteran.
	And the other person who will be embracing the U.S.
	occupation of Iraq and trying to defend it is Sarah Binion, and she is an adjunct professor at Austin Community College specializing in international relations.
	And that starts at 7 o'clock tonight.
	And I've been encouraged to point out that the parking is free, but sometimes that's difficult at the school, I understand.
	In the particular area where we are, it is free and easy, and the admission is free also.
	Well, they've actually got a gigantic parking lot.
	I've been there probably 25 times.
	Let's go to Nadia McCaffrey.
	Nadia, thank you for coming on with us.
	Why are you here in Austin?
	Good morning.
	Glad to be here.
	I am here for the same purpose.
	I mean, I need to pass on the truth, especially since I did the trip last year to the Middle East with the peace delegation comprised of five parents who had lost a son in Iraq.
	We needed to see the situation for ourselves, and we did.
	So after what we saw, we need to bring the truth back, and we need to speak out clearly, loudly.
	Ray McGovern,
	Every new excuse or new package or raft of lies and propaganda that has been launched by the neocons in the last four or five years, it's all been proven to be patented, manufactured lies.
	Premeditated lies, not accidental lies.
	I'm surprised they can even find people, though these two, Trampas Crowe and
	This other person, don't sound like their credentials stand up against the credentials, obviously, of a mother who lost her son, and Jeff Norman, of course, yourself, high-level CIA analyst.
	I mean, frankly, aren't they losing the war because no matter how many Fox News channels they have, we have the truth?
	Well, Alex, it is true that there has been a sea change over the last several months, and we now have polls indicating that as many as two-thirds of the American people think the war is a bad idea.
	The question is how to have a respectful discussion on these issues with people coming at it from different viewpoints.
	And what I hope we model this evening is precisely that, a chance to show that the people from different perspectives can address these issues in a civil way, unlike what you'll hear on a lot of the radio these days.
	And address them in a concerted way so that people can see what the options are.
	In other words, should we, quote, stay the course, end quote, we'll have to see how those folks defend that course.
	And should we withdraw?
	Well, that also is not a very easy course of action.
	And so how would we go about withdrawing?
	And what are the equities there?
	So these are the discussions that have to happen.
	And I'm just delighted that they're happening this evening.
	And I hope it will be an enlightening experience for those people from whichever perspective they come.
	Now, let's be specific about this.
	We're in Iraq.
	They're talking about being there for decades.
	This is an endless war on terror.
	Meanwhile, the borders are wide open, which just shows what a complete fraud any of these statements are.
	Nadia, let's be specific.
	Let's personalize this.
	We know it's personal for you, and it's personal for all Americans who don't want to be involved in a
	War of aggression.
	An unprovoked war of profiteering.
	Specifically, tell us about your son and what happened to him.
	Well, my son is not just my son.
	In other words, I'm not speaking on behalf of my son alone here.
	I'm speaking on behalf of many other soldiers who are still today in Iraq and others who have come back.
	For example, from his unit.
	They share
	The way I feel and also think that we shouldn't be in Iraq.
	My son was betrayed, I feel, by his government because he trusted what he was told when he left.
	He was a National Guard to start with and he enlisted after 9-11 wanting to make a difference, to help out people within the country.
	He didn't want anything like 9-11 to happen again and he wanted to be here to help.
	Instead, he was deployed to Iraq, he was killed, and he was the first National Guard to be killed from California from his unit in 58 years.
	Wow, that's quite an interesting distinction.
	How long was your son there, and if I may ask, how did he pass?
	He was there a very short time.
	He was deployed at the end of March.
	He arrived.
	In Iraq at the first or second week of April, I think it was the beginning of the second week, he was killed June 22nd, 2004 in Balad, Iraq.
	He was ambushed.
	Matter of fact, he was killed by the very soldier he was training to become part of the new Iraqi army.
	You say he was killed by the very soldiers he was training?
	Oh, was it friendly fire?
	No, no, it was not friendly fire.
	They were Iraqi men that he was training that turned on American soldiers.
	It had nothing to do with friendly fire.
	Oh, I understand.
	You're saying it was a sneak attack or spies?
	It was hostile, definitely, and it's considered to be a so-called insurgent.
	Well, this is what we hear from the armchair quarterback neocons that literally swill beer and eat pizza and watch the war coverage.
	I mean, they actually...
	We're good to go.
	But what they don't understand is what all the analysts have been saying.
	The more we go in there and bully people and bomb things, the more resistance is formed.
	It's an endless meat grinder.
	Meanwhile, what, only one member of Congress has a son that's ever been to Iraq?
	Ray McGovern, can you comment on that?
	Yeah, this is a main part of the problem, Alex.
	I was talking to an audience outside of Milwaukee in a very posh suburb, and one well-heeled gentleman came up and said, What's your problem?
	There are only four or five soldiers dying every week, and we do need the oil, don't we?
	You have to admit that that's a very small price to pay for the oil we need.
	I could hardly believe my ears because I dare say many Americans subconsciously are thinking these thoughts, but here was a fellow articulating it.
	Ray, I've got to stop you.
	They say it every day on Neocon Radio.
	They say, yeah, it's about oil, so what?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Well, I said to him, I said, now suppose your son was one of those five that were killed last week.
	You know, Alex, he looked at me.
	He looked at me.
	It was clear that he had never even thought that thought before.
	And he dismissed it.
	He said, well, it wouldn't be my son.
	And it wouldn't be his son.
	And that is a huge part of the problem.
	So zero empathy.
	And then even when you forced him to consciously look at it, he still had no empathy and just said, no, not my son.
	No, it's the kids from the farms, kids from the inner city.
	Those kids are expendable.
	My son wouldn't have to go to Iraq anymore.
	I know Rangel and others who've had him on have said, yeah, that's why we need to draft all the rich kids.
	Look, they're never going to write the law where it happens to their kids.
	Or they're going to be managing the PX 500 miles from any combat.
	Well, if we spread the truth around, Alex, and you're a big help in this, we can educate folks to realize that they've been had and that this war has nothing to do with democracy or freedom or defending, quote, our way of life.
	What it has to do with is enriching the pockets of the folks that support this administration and enabling us to try to exert our power throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East.
	But, Ray McGovern, I had Congressman Ron Paul on
	Last Thursday.
	Good man.
	And the Congressman, I said, why does Bush want martial law here in America?
	I said, you know, why are we in Iraq?
	Why is all this happening?
	And Ron Paul, we have a transcript of it on PrisonPlanet.com, but the interview's there as well.
	He said Bush is trying to take over and set up martial law.
	He said Bush, and Ron Paul's been on this show over two dozen times.
	He's never talked like this.
	He said the evidence is clear.
	He's trying to set up a dictatorship.
	Your comments on that?
	Well, it does seem as though the folks that have his ear are hell-bent on giving a wider purview, wider responsibilities to our military.
	Witness what they're talking about now and giving the military primary responsibility for catastrophes, for hurricanes and so forth.
	A military has been built up as an instrument of power by these folks that has never existed in its potency, this kind of potency before.
	And so I think we all need to look at this because there are laws against using the military in law enforcement capacities and we need to get to our congressmen and senators and say, look, enough of this stuff.
	Bring the National Guard home, have the National Guard do these duties under the supervision of the governors, and don't let the U.S.
	military take over the security functions of this country, because that's not what it was invented to do.
	Well, it's every classical sign of a dictatorship.
	Pushing national ID cards, putting cameras up everywhere, getting rid of any due process, secret arrest of citizens.
	They don't need to get rid of Posse Comitatus to use the regular army in a disaster.
	And then the training of the domestic troops.
	I've been to these training ops, sir.
	It is for domestic takeover.
	I mean, this is really bone-chilling, but I see both parties involved.
	Well, Alex, the real rub here is were there to be another huge, quote, terrorist event, end quote,
	We have Tommy Franks, the general, saying that if this happened, the military would certainly impose martial law and bye-bye democracy.
	So we have to be careful.
	And if somebody does this kind of provocation, big, violent explosion of some kind, we have to not take the word of the masters there in Washington that this was some terrorist event, because it could well be a provocation allowing them, or seemingly to allow them... We'll be right back.
	Stay with us.
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	Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	Alright, time waits for no man.
	I apologize about that break cutting off.
	Ray McGovern was saying, Ray, we brought up martial law.
	I mean, Tommy Franks puts up the trial balloon.
	Oh, it's too bad.
	One more attack.
	Military government keeps you safe.
	And every day, articles about, hmm, maybe this will keep us safe.
	Has nothing, I mean, all these scientists and doctors have said,
	That if there's some type of bio-attack, martial law will do nothing.
	None of the money is going towards actual first responders or medical teams.
	It's all about an excuse to take over.
	And you were saying that if there is some attack, while the indictments are going on, I would add, some convenient attack, we've got to ask where that's coming from.
	Please continue and finish up what you were saying, Ray.
	Well, we've just got to be very careful not to be taken in if...
	You know, things get even worse than they are now.
	And they are going to get worse.
	And the administration considers that it's going to be necessary to rally the people behind the flag again, so to speak.
	I would not put past them playing fast and loose with these color code type things, with these provocations, real or imagined.
	Well, Bloomberg just got caught with the fake terror alert with the hoax.
	That's right, up in New York.
	So we just have to be alert as citizens and not take what the government dishes out as gospel.
	Well, Ray, the sources we trust that in the past we found out to be very accurate, one of them Ron Paul, others in the White House, around the White House,
	Capitol Hill Blue and others say that Bush is throwing fits, screaming and yelling, that there's actual disintegration going on in there right now, that they're panicked for the last month.
	But at the same time, I get the intel that they're still as arrogant as ever, just pushing their whole agenda as things start to crumble out from under them.
	And Ron Paul said that it's clear that they are delusional and mentally ill right now.
	Well, they've been delusional all along.
	I think the best outcome would be for the president to take his bike out there in Maryland just to ride around for the next month or two and let Fitzgerald come back with the indictments and see what the administration, how they'll cope with that because it's going to get pretty intense pretty soon.
	And when you talk about Roeb and Libby, well, Roeb is simply the president and Libby is simply the vice president.
	And these things go a lot higher.
	Because they have to do with the lies used to justify this war.
	But to be specific, you're always, and others back in the 80s and early 90s, called them the crazies at the Pentagon, and their kind of walled, sequestered romper room.
	But, I mean, now we have Ron Paul calling them delusional.
	Yeah.
	The only hope, really, here is Patrick Fitzgerald and his integrity, and it looks like he's got lots of it, which is a rare commodity in Washington.
	The indictments are going to come down, and they're going to touch the president and the vice president specifically.
	Why?
	Well, because this whole war was built on a forgery.
	On a forgery that said Iraq was seeking uranium in Niger, and that was used to justify this mushroom cloud scare.
	Now, who did the forgery?
	Alex, who did the forgery?
	Why is it that Senator Pat Roberts, the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, refused to investigate who did the forgery?
	Well, you know who did it?
	My best guess is that it was done at home here by folks very willing to do this kind of task for the likes of Louis Libby and his boss, Vice President Cheney.
	Have they bitten off more than they can chew, Ray, in the intelligence community that's sick of lying for them?
	Well, we have, and it depends on us to hold them to it, because if we're not educated and if we're not strong and have the courage of our convictions, they'll get away with it once again.
	All right, we're going to come back.
	It was just a 60-second break.
	We've got a short segment coming up.
	I want to go to Nadia McCaffrey, who lost her son in Iraq, first National Guardsman in over 50 years from the state of California to die.
	He was the first, the first of many, unfortunately.
	We'll come back.
	She's got some very interesting points she wants to make.
	This broadcast is available on MP3 CD format at GCNlive.com or call toll-free 877-300-7645.
	Big Brother.
	Mainstream media.
	Government cover-ups.
	You want answers?
	Well, so does he.
	He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
	Well, we've really got to be thankful for people like Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst who briefed Ronald Reagan and George Bush I, Lord Bush I,
	We're also joined by Jeff Norman, who's been out there organizing as a great activist all over the country.
	We had him on a few months ago when he simply asked Rumsfeld a question and was grabbed by Rumsfeld's goons, was video caught of that.
	And Nadia McCaffrey, who lost her son in Iraq.
	She's part of Gold Star Vets, and she was, of course, the mother of a veteran who died over there.
	We're honored to have all three of them with us.
	They're all going to be here in Austin.
	Well, they're now here in Austin, but coming up tonight, 7 o'clock, LBJ Presidential Museum and Library.
	And it's in room 3109, but I've got a sneaking suspicion it'll be moved to a larger auditorium.
	So just, you'll find it.
	Go to the UT Library there, and you can't, the University of Texas LBJ Library and Museum, you can't miss it.
	Coming up tonight at 7 o'clock, there'll be debating, some
	Well, I've got to say it's some ne'er-do-wells or well-meaning idiots.
	I don't know what they are.
	It's just they're going to be having a debate pro-con for the war.
	And I've just heard the pro-war crowd.
	They have... They are congenital liars.
	And I don't know about these two particular people they're going to be debating, but in every case it's been the same.
	I mean, you have to be an idiot or a liar to push this war.
	It's one of the most unjust...
	...flagrantly fraudulent wars in history.
	We're about to break.
	This is a quick segment.
	But going to Nadia McCaffrey.
	Nadia, you had some points you wanted to make, namely about armored Humvees.
	You know, we hear on Neocon Radio that there's plenty of armored Humvees, but I've talked to troops coming back who've just been getting back in the last month.
	Most of them still don't have armored Humvees.
	Nadia?
	No, they don't, and especially the guards, which are being killed at the strike, as you know.
	I was invited to that lunch in Beverly Hills with Jeff Norman and my question to Mr. Rumsfeld was why do we have 70,000 70,000
	M113 parked in the middle of the United States collecting dust.
	And we had those three years ago before we went to war.
	What are they doing parking in the middle of the U.S.
	when our soldiers are being killed because of a lack of protection?
	Their equipment is not adequate.
	What is going on?
	I want to know why.
	And what did Rumsfeld say to that?
	Well, my question was tossed on the bottom pile of many other military questions.
	Of course.
	Well, I mean, even McCain just brought out that Schwarzenegger stages press conferences.
	They make people getting into Cheney town halls sign a form saying they agree with him and won't ask a mean question.
	Ray McGovern, the buying of news reporters, all of this, again, it fits in with this perfect mosaic of tyranny.
	Well, it certainly does, Alex.
	It's a sea change in what I'm used to, and I've been watching things in Washington for 45 years now.
	We no longer have a free press in any meaningful sense of that term and so the premium is on folks like you and others to tune into the alternative press and get the real scoop and the internet is one of the prime resources for that and we just have to be a little bit more imaginative in ways to use that terrific facility.
	Why don't they care?
	I mean, that's not anti-war propaganda.
	I looked into it.
	They really don't care and from the start and continually have not shipped the proper equipment over there that we already have.
	Why are they mothballing it?
	Well, I think the effort of saying, Alex, once again, is it wouldn't be my son.
	It wouldn't be my daughter.
	So who cares?
	I mean, this is cannon fodder.
	Five, six, seven a week.
	That's what the gentleman said to me in Pewaukee, Wisconsin.
	You've got to admit, that's worth it for our way of life, right?
	For the oil we need.
	That is the incredibly cynical attitude of these folks.
	But as you know, the oil companies are ripping us off to begin with.
	Stay there.
	Folks, this is amazing.
	We'll talk to Jeff Mormon when we get back as well.
	I've got several other important questions for our guests who I just really want to thank and who I just appreciate.
	I mean, they're traveling the country of their own time and money to tell you the truth, folks.
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	From his Central Texas Command Center, deep behind enemy lines, the information war continues.
	It's Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.
	I tend to start frothing when I get into these subjects because there's so much evidence.
	During the break, I was talking to Ray McGovern, high-level top CIA analyst.
	He briefed Ronald Reagan six days a week there at breakfast during the Reagan administration and, of course, Bush 41.
	And back then, and we've talked to Ray and many of his colleagues, they called the current crew running things the crazies.
	I mean, they want to use nuclear weapons.
	They want to take the planet over.
	They're all a bunch of soft little chicken hawks, never wore a uniform, never been in combat.
	And they just... I mean, it's admitted, Richard Perle shows off to women who are just disgusted by him at...
	Cocktail parties by talking about, you know, I can invade countries if I want to.
	I mean, this has been in the papers.
	Imagine this blob swaggering over going, I'm powerful.
	I mean, these people are mentally ill.
	There's no other way to look at it.
	They've gone off the deep end.
	Ron Paul last week never talked like this.
	He said they're delusional.
	And so I was talking to Ray during the break, and I said, Ray, I mean, what points do you want to make?
	There's so many.
	He said, torture.
	And I'm like, exactly, torture.
	Bush comes out and says that, hey, we're not going to stop torturing.
	Now, this is after sending people to prison on orders to torture.
	We know they ordered them to torture.
	Then they send them to prison, and then Bush says, I'm not going to stop torturing people.
	But then Alberto Gonzalez gets confirmed and won't even...
	Step away from his memos calling for torture.
	And I agree with Ray McGovern when he said during the break that this shows that Rove is distracted right now, off trying to save his own hind end.
	That's what scares me, Ray McGovern, is that they seem to be even more out of control, more arrogant, more in your face right now.
	That's right, Alex.
	Our Constitution was written by some very foresighted people who had provisions for what happens when a president starts acting like a king.
	They wrote right into that basic document a very orderly procedure, the remedy to be followed under such circumstances, and that remedy is called impeachment.
	And just the fact that the Republican Party, the President's Party, dominates the legislature right now, that is no excuse, no excuse for our representatives to avoid pressing articles of impeachment against the people who would besmirch our country's name and endanger our own soldiers.
	By having an openly avowed policy of torture consistent with military necessity and as appropriate, and who decides what's appropriate but the President of the United States.
	This is a king.
	This is not a president.
	The way you get rid of a king is to impeach him.
	Well, Ray, I mean, back in your day at the CIA, torture was not some routine procedure.
	Especially, you know, I mean, it certainly went on and people went to prison for doing it.
	Now it's just out in the open being codified as some huge policy arm.
	But then I read my history books, but you're an analyst, I mean...
	Torture supposedly doesn't work.
	You can't trust a government who tortures.
	Torture always backfires.
	It gets your own people tortured.
	I mean, how are they openly pushing torture?
	Well, Alex, I served two years as an infantry and intelligence officer, and we had to memorize that manual that prohibited this kind of treatment.
	And the reasons are very clear.
	Number one, as you already said, it doesn't work.
	You can't get reliable information by torturing people.
	Anybody who has had any experience in intelligence knows that.
	Number two, you endanger your own soldiers.
	Number three, you give your country a very bad name.
	Number four, you brutalize the brutalizers.
	The people, the young kids you send to torture others are brutalized themselves.
	They come home and they brutalize others.
	And number five, not least, it's just plain wrong.
	Morally wrong.
	It's in the same category with rape, with slavery.
	Torture is always wrong.
	And if our churches can't wake up
	If our people cannot wake up and make themselves a little different from the populists in the 30s in Nazi Germany and do something about this, if they can't face torture and tell the President this is wrong, then I fear for the future of our country.
	Well, that's the thing.
	I mean, no one's ever promoted torture openly.
	I mean, the Nazis didn't even do that.
	No, and you know, it all came to a head last week when Senator McCain, who knows something about torture, having been tortured himself, put a little amendment on the Defense Authorization Bill.
	The amendment said, we simply will not torture anymore.
	We'll follow the procedures in the Army Manual for Interrogation.
	Guess what?
	Cheney descended on those folks that wanted to do that amendment and said, we're going to veto that bill if you have that amendment in it.
	And anyhow, what happened, and to his credit, McCain persisted, and last week the Senate vote was 90-9 for the amendment prohibiting torture.
	And your two senators here in Texas, I have to say, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, voted the correct way against torture, but this fellow John Cornyn, I don't know,
	I don't know how you justify voting for torture, but I would hope that you Texans listening in will ask John Cornyn, now why is it that you favor torture?
	Because that's no overstatement.
	He voted against an amendment which said we should adhere to the Army Manual having to do with interrogation of POWs, and Cornyn voted against it with eight other Republicans.
	That's what he did.
	And it's going to be really interesting to see if the House of Representatives honor that amendment or whether they succumb to White House pressure to allow this amendment to be defeated.
	How did Gonzales ever get confirmed?
	When I've read his memos on air, he just plays that little word game, that delusional game, and says, well, if we don't call it torture, it isn't torture, even if they die while we're tabling them.
	And for those that don't know what tabling is, and the descriptions that have come out in the Army's own reports,
	Is that they have the people put excrement in a big bucket and then they put somebody up on a dolly on a plank and then slide their head down into it.
	I mean, Ray, how did they send people to prison for torturing when they were ordered to do it and then meanwhile Gonzalez openly admits that he wrote memos saying it was good?
	Yeah, well, that's the supreme indignity.
	When he was up for confirmation, he did not disavow these memos.
	Colin Powell, to his credit, and he deserves very little credit these days, but at least he spoke out against torture.
	But Speedy Gonzalez speeded his own little memo up to the president the day before he got the memo from Colin Powell.
	So they clearly wanted... Well, the president, on the evening of 9-11, told Richard Clarke, the anti-terrorism fellow, and Don Rumsfeld...
	Look, I don't care what the international lawyers say, we're going to kick some ass.
	Quote, end quote.
	Where do I get that?
	From Richard Clarke's book.
	Was Richard Clarke there?
	Of course he was.
	That's who the president was talking to.
	And so it's a direct dissent down into Crawford, Texas, where the counter-demonstrators had signs saying, kick their ass and take their gas.
	Yeah, that's right.
	In fact, I was out there.
	They had signs.
	I mean, how is this Christian?
	Jesus Christ was tortured.
	The disciples were tortured.
	I mean, I can think of nothing more anti-Christ than torturing people, Ray.
	Well, that's why I say if the Christian churches, like the real ones, you know, not the ones that are Christian in name only, if the Methodists and Catholics and Presbyterians and Episcopalians can't get their act together enough to speak out to their people and say, we think it's wrong that our government hasn't openly avowed
	Well, it's almost like Bush wants to embarrass this country, and I think that's part of a larger program.
	It's amazing.
	Jeff Norman and Nadia McCaffrey, you guys are going to be there speaking tonight, and they're debating this evening, 7 o'clock, LBJ Library and Museum.
	Right off I-35.
	You really can't miss it, folks.
	But any other points you'd like to make?
	Well, you know, it's not actually the library.
	It's the LBJ School of Public Affairs, which I guess is close.
	To be specific, it's all the same building.
	So regarding the possibility of any venue change, let me give the number for information over there, if I might.
	It's 471-8954.
	And I'd also like to point out, if any people want to speak to their local representative, or their state representative actually, John Cornyn, about why he is so in love with torture, his address is 221 West 6th Street, Suite 1530.
	So perhaps some concerned citizens might want to go over there and find out about it.
	You also brought up a very interesting point before about the illegal paying of journalists to disseminate propaganda.
	And Ray's former colleague, Mel Goodman, who worked with him in the CIA, wrote a very interesting op-ed, which is up on our website, ustourofduty.org, in which he suggested that maybe Robert Novak was among those who was paid off.
	And I think that's the first time anyone has linked this illegal buying of the media to the Valerie Plank.
	Well, I mean, it's well known, paid off.
	The guy's whole life, his whole position has been a neocon...
	Okay, there are two or three.
	There is Gold Star Family for Peace, which spells with the first letter of each word, .org.
	GoldStarFamilyForPeace.org.
	That's Cindy Sheehan's organization.
	And we also are Veterans of Peace and quite a few others than Jeff is going to tell you.
	We all work together on this.
	Well, I'm glad that you've gone public, Nadia, and I appreciate your courage.
	People should come down and support you tonight.
	Ray, give us the website that you're a member of.
	Yeah, well, you know, we're too busy running around the country spreading truth around, Alex, to maintain a website, so the best thing to do is Google either my name, Ray McGovern, or Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, and you'll come up with pretty much everything we've done recently.
	You guys have done a massive amount of work, and hopefully we can make it through all of this craziness, and I really do appreciate all three of you for coming on.
	It was a pleasure.
	Thank you so much, Nadia.
	Thank you, Ray McGovern.
	Thank you, Jeff.
	Thanks to all of you.
	Take care.
	Look forward to talking to you in the near future.
	Get down there and support them tonight.
	We'll be back with a ton of news and more guests.
	Government is best with government police.
	Wake up and smell the fascism.
	Being in government means never having to say you're sorry.
	What part of unconstitutional do you not understand, George?
	In today's world full of tyranny and injustice, sometimes it seems the only thing we still have is our freedom of speech.
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	Isn't your family... Folks, I said that when Bush got into office, they may use him to really bring in the New World Order and then flush him down the toilet when they're done with it.
	Presidents are just puppets.
	I mean, he may knowingly go along with being destroyed, just like Nixon did.
	Look, Kerry knows that he won the election.
	I'm not for John Kerry.
	John Forbes Kerry.
	But you can't just steal the election with the electronic voting machines if the person it's being stolen from doesn't play ball.
	You've got to have it rigged from top to bottom.
	And we know they did that.
	And we know that Bush may be brought down.
	It may happen.
	But I'm not going to be celebrating it.
	Look, Hillary Clinton's for the war.
	Chuckie Schumer's for the war.
	Clinton was for the war.
	Kerry wanted to invade Iran now.
	Ooh, how is that?
	This is all done by design.
	And so then we have chief neocons.
	I mean...
	The father of Crystal literally ran the Fourth International and shut up what is the neocons today.
	Let's roll this clip.
	He was on there a week ago, now he was on there yesterday again, and he even elaborated, Roe v. Libby, Scooter Libby, will be indicted.
	Roll it.
	That would seem to me to create a little problem.
	Libby's lawyer apparently entirely denies this, so we have two distinguished lawyers simply contradicting each other at this point.
	Look, what's amazing about this to me is the following.
	On July 30th, the CIA referred to the Justice Department the leaking of Valerie Wilson, or Valerie Plame's name, for investigation under the, what's it called, the intelligence... Foreign Intelligence and Identities Act.
	Very odd name.
	Right, from 1982.
	There's almost no chance, I think, that Rove or Libby are going to be prosecuted for violating that act.
	On the other hand, the CIA began this process of a criminal investigation.
	It went from a Justice Department investigation to a special prosecutor at Christmas of 2003.
	And I now think, and I hate the criminalization of politics, and I think it's really ridiculous when you step back and say, of all the leaks that have come out in the last four or five years, is this the one leak that deserves to be prosecuted or possibly classified information?
	We're talking to people pretty close to both Libby and Rove, outside of government, who therefore can talk about it.
	I think they expect the worst now.
	I think they... Both Libby and Rove will be indicted.
	I believe, if I had to predict, and I don't know more about this than anyone else reading the papers, that both Libby and Rove will be indicted, not for what the original referral was about, but for some combination of disclosing classified information,
	It's like a cliche.
	And by the way, folks, that's another reason if the FBI ever wants to talk about or talk to you, do not talk to them.
	I mean, even if you know you're innocent and they want to, quote, talk about something just to clear you, you can't talk to them.
	Because if they say you didn't tell them the truth,
	Then you're going to prison.
	By the way, that's ridiculous.
	And I'm not here defending Karl Rove.
	Heavens no, but this whole thing stinks to high heaven.
	This whole thing.
	Wheels within wheels, lies within lies, propaganda within propaganda, wheels within wheels.
	Before we end this segment, I've got to put a plug in here.
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	Systematic, premeditated, industrialized election fraud is going on.
	It is an orgy of evidence.
	We are grounding in it.
	That's coming up in the next hour with Vicki Karp.
	I haven't been taking calls today because we've got five guests.
	In the next hour, if you want to talk to Vicki Karp, we'll get you on.
	But all the callers that keep calling in are on hold.
	You're going to be waiting a while because we've got other news we need to cover.
	I apologize about that, but this information has to be covered.
	We live in the age where we have a president who openly says, Hey, I'm going to send people to prison for following orders to torture.
	But then I'm going to veto a law saying that we can't torture people severely.
	The law just says, you know, current army manual, you can pressure them, but you can't torture them severely.
	So I'm going to veto that.
	I mean, that is up is down, down is up.
	That is an oxymoron.
	You know, we're against torture, but we're for it.
	It is a total contradiction.
	But we have become a desensitized country.
	We have lost our empathy.
	Empires always become corrupt.
	When you become decadent, you become basically mentally stunted.
	We become very numb to what's happening.
	I mean, empathy is, you see somebody that's hit by a car and they're splattered all over, and you see that they're in pain, you have a feeling of pain.
	And by the way, I've read the psychology, I've read the sociology, I've read the science behind it,
	That's because your brain deep down associates that incredible pain with that happening to yourself.
	I mean, really, empathy is a self-survival mechanism.
	The yuppies and ne'er-do-wells out there think that if they only care about themselves, everything's going to be all right.
	Well, I only care about me, and that's how I get ahead.
	Number one, that's not how we're supposed to operate.
	You're going to be a very unhappy person.
	But more importantly it creates a society a toxic society where nobody cares about anybody and everything falls apart.
	And I'm not trying to get up here and preach, folks.
	I mean, I'm not the nicest person in the world.
	I'm jealous.
	I'm envious sometimes.
	I'm greedy.
	I mean, I have to deal with those feelings I have.
	But at least I'm aware of them.
	I mean, I'm an aggressive person.
	I'm a mean person.
	But at least I'm aware of that, and I keep that in check and try to develop my higher calling and higher senses.
	But we were talking to Ray McGovern, the top CIA analyst for Ronald Reagan and George Bush, Sr.,
	About how these guys have lost all empathy.
	I mean, he's out giving a speech, and a guy walks up and says, ah, so what, you know, a couple dead troops every day, so what?
	That's a good price to pay for cheap oil.
	Well, what if it's your son?
	Well, it's not going to be my son.
	You see, what's the old Bible quote?
	The wages of sin are death.
	And that simply means, folks, if we all go through life doing bad things, bad things are going to happen to us.
	I mean, what comes around goes around.
	You reap what you sow.
	I don't believe in karma, but that's another view of you reap what you sow.
	And so enough of my preaching.
	The point I'm trying to make here before we go to our next guest is that when you don't care about innocent people that are in prison, or you say, oh, they're all guilty.
	Well, then you're going to be treated like that too.
	You know, the cops' favorite cliche is, oh, everybody says they're innocent.
	Well, police on average commit more crimes and use more drugs and beat their wives more than any other group.
	Does that mean all cops are guilty?
	No, it doesn't.
	Now, when I learned about the Tulia, Texas case many years ago, and I've interviewed almost everybody under the sun surrounding this case, including some of the victims, I was amazed because, I mean, I knew that crime labs in Boston and crime labs in Houston and the FBI crime lab, Frederick Whitehurst, the head of the FBI crime lab's comment was that it was industrialized fraud.
	I mean, it was just wholesale.
	Everyone was guilty.
	You know, if they wanted a guilty evidence, they'd just, boom, you were guilty.
	Same thing with the Houston Crime Lab.
	I mean, this is nationwide.
	You think when you get arrested for something that you're going to get a fair trial.
	No, you're not, folks.
	But Tulia was a sterling example because you had people who didn't have drugs.
	You had people who had no criminal record.
	Old farmers in a small town where the old aristocracy in the town...
	The town had shut down, so literally the local big boss hog types just opened these prisons.
	And with the state.
	And Texas is a big warehouse state for warehousing everybody.
	Just giving you some background.
	And they would just go out and scoop up masses of black people with no criminal records and just throw them into prison.
	The juries would give them 20 to 90 years in prison.
	It came out that it was all completely manufactured.
	The governor finally had to
	Had to give Clemency or pardon most of them, and some people are still in prison!
	So without further ado, we're going to talk to Nate Blakeslee, former editor of the Texas Observer.
	He also writes for the Texas Observer currently, and he wrote the new book, The Tulia Story, and his new book is simply called Tulia, Race, Cocaine, and Corruption in a Small Texas Town, and he also is now writing for Texas Monthly.
	And I appreciate you sitting through that diatribe there, Nate.
	But, I mean, if we don't get angry about innocent people going to prison, none of us are safe, are we, Nate?
	No, I would say you hit a bunch of the themes in the book in that introduction.
	And, you know, obviously one of the major ones is abuse of police power, and this is one of the prime examples in recent history.
	Well, tell us, I mean, for those that don't know about Tulia, it's still relatively unknown.
	Give us a thumbnail sketch.
	Well, what happened was in the summer of 1999, there was a major drug bust in Tulia, which was unusual in and of itself because it's such a small town.
	It's a town of about 5,000 people.
	As you say, it's a town sort of in decline.
	It's a ranching and agricultural town.
	It's between Amarillo and Lubbock.
	And one narcotics officer filed cases against 47 different defendants in that town, accused all of them of dealing powdered cocaine.
	As you might expect, it made headlines.
	He was named Officer of the Year.
	There were a few stories about, well, should so many of these defendants have been black?
	39 of the 47 were black, and there's only about 250, maybe 300 black people in town, so...
	But there were very few questions raised about the methods he used and about whether or not these cases were actually legitimate to begin with until some investigative reporting and the observer reporting that I did focused on whether or not these cases were actually legit.
	And that's when things started to really unravel.
	And it came down like a house of cards.
	We think so many times that...
	Tyranny is invincible, but really, it's a house of cards and along comes a wind and blows it over, but
	For those that also aren't aware of the case, he had also done this in a bunch of other towns, so the numbers were even larger in the total.
	Yeah, well, his M.O.
	was... Actually, he had never been a narcotics agent, and that's kind of another galling aspect of this story, too.
	But he did have a terrible, terrible track record as a law enforcement officer.
	Basically, his M.O.
	was he would use his father's good name.
	His father was a well-known Texas Ranger from West Texas who passed away.
	And he would rely on his father's good name to get these deputy sheriff's positions in these small towns and generally he would run up a bunch of bills, make a general ass of himself until they were just about ready to get rid of him and then he would disappear, literally, in the middle of the shift and everybody would be left holding the bag.
	That was his record coming into Tulia.
	He had never done any kind of narcotics enforcement and what I tried to show in the book is how did we get to this state of affairs in the drug world where a man like this can be hired to do narcotics enforcement and not only hired in the first place but allowed to do narcotics enforcement the way he did it which was no corroboration of any kind for virtually any of his cases.
	He never wore a wire.
	Never had video.
	Never even had a second officer to say, yes, he was where he said he was on the day he was there.
	So the book is about an incredible decline in standards in narcotics enforcement in the United States.
	Well, since you mentioned that, on the word of some crackhead who literally can hardly get out of bed in the morning, they'll SWAT team my house looking for drugs.
	I mean, all of us are in danger.
	I mean, I'm sure you've heard of the cases of where the...
	Where the drug addict, ten-time loser, points out the million-dollar insurance salesman's home, and they bust in the old man's house and shoot him five times.
	I mean, there's just thousands of these cases, and I frankly am sick of it.
	Yeah, well, at least Coleman was a cop.
	As you say, sometimes the person who's making the cases is not even a law enforcement officer.
	He's a snitch or a confidential informant.
	And that's part of the M.O.
	of this type of task force that hired Coleman.
	These are the guys, really, who are giving narcotics enforcement a bad name in Texas, at least.
	These guys, they operate outside of the normal Department of Public Safety narcotics.
	Well, let's stop right there.
	What's your take on Dallas, where they just pull cars over and throw a cue ball chalk in the back and then grab them?
	I mean...
	That story broke almost about a year after Tulia broke, and that quickly became the reigning scandal in Texas, and people forgot about Tulia for a while.
	That was a heck of a story, and that illustrated just how degraded law enforcement had become outside of these task forces.
	The thing that really got me about that story was that the district attorney admitted that
	That they routinely did not test evidence, did not test the cocaine until the cases were ready to go to trial.
	And so all you had was these narcs doing these field tests in which they were the only person present to say whether it was or was not cocaine.
	And then if the case never went to trial, which as you know most drug cases never go to trial, usually that's a plea, a cop-out, then the drugs were never tested at all.
	It's a breakdown in the system that comes from a lack of checks and balances.
	Well, I want to ask the police this.
	How do they sleep at night
	Number one, the drug war's gotten double the funding in the last ten years, and there's more cocaine and heroin on the streets than ever before.
	Number one, the thing is a fraud and a failure at first base.
	Then you move through this constellation of corruption, and I mean, I want to know how they sleep at night sending innocent people to prison.
	Mm-hmm.
	Well, I tried to get inside Coleman's head as much as I could.
	I think Coleman was the narc, of course, in the Thule case.
	I think what it was about mostly for him was trying to save his professional career, or as Mel Brooks said, save his phony baloney job.
	He had ruined his reputation through his past conduct in law enforcement.
	For those that didn't know, we're talking about 70-something-year-old black men that farm pigs who don't have criminal records.
	That's right.
	And, I mean, this guy can just cold-bloodedly send them to prison.
	And he, I mean, he wasn't completely stupid.
	I mean, he knew that he had to.
	I think so.
	I think so.
	And the sentences were just incredible.
	90-year sentences for delivery of $200 worth of cocaine.
	Kids with no prior records getting the maximum.
	In fact, that's why I originally went to Thule.
	I wanted to speak to the jurors about what it was that they felt about delivering small amounts of cocaine was morally equivalent to raping or murdering somebody because that's what they were given, these first-degree sentences.
	And what did they say?
	Well, I think what they said was,
	In general, their feeling was that they knew these people were troublemakers.
	They knew the family they came from.
	Therefore, it didn't really matter how much evidence there was.
	They didn't need to have much more evidence than this man's word because they knew the family.
	Keep in mind, this is a really small town.
	Once you get on the list as somebody who's an undesirable, you're in a lot of trouble.
	And I lay more blame, really, on the district attorney and the sheriff and the task force for even making these cases and allowing them to come before attorneys in the first place.
	Let's boil it down, though.
	What I've heard from so many people inside this case is, if you were a young black man dating a white girl, you're going to prison.
	That did come up more than once in my interviews.
	In fact, it came up so many times that I would stop mentioning it, and it would still come up.
	And that does seem to be sort of, if you want to get the answer to the question why does somebody give the maximum sentence for such a fiddling crime, I think you do have to talk about race.
	And one of the things people did want to talk about in that town when you talked about race was what they called racial mixing or interracial dating or interracial sex.
	And it had become a much more common phenomenon obviously than it was in their parents' generation.
	And it was a great cause for concern in that town, and I do think that some of that sentiment underlies at least the length of the sentences involved.
	Well, no one's safe when you can get 90 years in prison because people don't like you.
	Why would he go after old black ranchers with no criminal record?
	I mean, why would he just... I mean, did he get sloppy at the end?
	Well, I think at first he was working off a list of names that the sheriff gave him, either in writing or verbally.
	That was never fully established, but
	I think the sheriff told him, look, we know who the troublemakers are in this town, and these are the people we want you to get rid of.
	And by troublemaker, I mean anybody that's ever given them any kind of trouble at all, including what we were just discussing about this interracial sex issue.
	And so he started from that list.
	I think the sheriff probably expected him to make about eight or ten cases, and most of them would be crack or marijuana because that was sort of the pattern of drug use in that community that the sheriff sent him into.
	But instead...
	We're good to go.
	Well, it's insane.
	And then some people are, I don't care.
	That's an isolated case.
	Folks, it's not an isolated case.
	And it's everybody's community that this is happening to.
	But as Tony Brown has said on this show, they will take disadvantaged communities and target them.
	And so you'll have an over-concentration or over-saturation.
	That is, to boil it down, they'll get it even more severely.
	Than other communities.
	And we're now even seeing in some of the South Texas areas, which is something that you may not have been aware of, that we'll have Hispanic majorities then kind of doing things to whites and blacks.
	So this could happen to any group at any time.
	Whites can do it to Hispanics.
	Blacks can do it to whites.
	I don't know.
	I mean, obviously I haven't read your book yet, but I intend to get a copy.
	You turned over a lot of stones.
	Are there any other facets that the public may not be aware of?
	Well, one of the things I wanted to make sure people understood is this is not just another story of those crazy Texans being Texans, but this was actually a program that was funded by the federal government.
	It was hatched in the late 80s.
	It's commonly called the Burn Grant Task Force Program, and that's what funded this operation in Thule, and that is what has funded a lot of the more scandal-ridden programs in Texas in narcotics.
	The idea behind the Burn Grant was that we can't put a DEA agent in every town, but maybe we can get the sheriffs and the local PDs to group together, form these regional task forces if we'll send them the money.
	The problem was, that's all they did was send them the money.
	They never checked up to see exactly how well these things were performing.
	Well, it's a bounty!
	Yeah, and the logical conclusion of that was, in the state of Texas, the money went to the governor's office.
	The governor parceled it out to these new task forces.
	There were about 50 of them formed up.
	MJTF.
	Yeah, multi-jurisdictional task force.
	And what happened was,
	They made them compete with one another for this grant money.
	So they actually came up with this formula to decide... Stay there.
	Let's talk about this, because now it becomes a competitive sport.
	So I'm driving along with my family and come up to a checkpoint, and a bunch of cops from five counties want to search my car.
	No!
	No way, you Constitution-killing little creatures!
	There is a secret that holds the world's destiny in its grasp.
	Hello, my friends.
	Alex Jones here.
	Learn that secret with my new film, Martial Law, 9-11 Rise of the Police State.
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	Because there's a war on for your mind.
	Folks, I've been out in the Texas hill country interviewing, and you can just go from house to house to house.
	I mean, 150-year-old old German rock houses, nice little farming families.
	From house to house to house to house, from neighborhood to neighborhood, at corner stores.
	And you go in and talk to them, and they go, turn the camera off, and I'll tell you, it's horrible.
	They come in here with the machine guns.
	They tell us to get on the ground.
	They don't even have warrants.
	And they literally, these MJTF, they just feed on everyone.
	They just randomly just run around grabbing and snatching and kicking down doors and digging through things.
	So long before I learned about Tulia,
	I was covering this and going out there with the camera crews.
	So it isn't just black Americans, though, when you get mixed racism and MJTF, I guess since you don't find anything at the houses, you just go ahead and grab them.
	But the new book is out, and it's Tulia.
	Race, cocaine, and corruption in a small Texas town.
	Folks, every day I see articles from every corner of the nation where police are framing the citizens.
	And I say...
	We're good to go.
	I think?
	Well, I think people have gotten to the point where they're ready to give up in some circles on this particular drug task force program.
	And by that I mean there seems to be some enthusiasm waning in Washington for this program, partly because of the Tulia scandal.
	There was a pretty major budget cut in the last couple of years.
	And then here in Texas after the Tulia scandal,
	I think so.
	They get together with their insurance companies and the county judges, and they say, you know, it's time to get out.
	So we're all the way down to 25 task forces, and actually I think this morning it's 23 from a high of 50 in the late 90s.
	So this particular program seems to be on the way out.
	Well, I'll tell you, I mean, I'm not exaggerating.
	Roving bands of people in camo playing Rambo.
	Yeah.
	One of the favorite quotes I have from the book is a state legislator, he called them brother-in-law types in ninja suits.
	That was his description of him, and he ought to know.
	He used to be on the board of one of those task forces, and then he just got fed up with it.
	Well, it's scary.
	I mean, I've been to houses in Travis County where they just walk off the street and searched all the houses.
	And, I mean, talking to old ladies, and they make them sit in fire ants, and then, you know, no drugs are found, and they go into the renter's house and make fun of him for having a Playboy.
	I mean, it's like, well, we didn't find drugs, but what's this Playboy?
	I mean, just weird.
	Yeah, the whole innocent have nothing to fear mentality seems to reign on those search warrants these days, or lack of search warrants.
	And that phenomenon you just described of shutting down an entire street, the bust out as they call it, this is why they call them the jump out boys in Texas, these task forces.
	They call them the jump out boys because they do just that.
	They'll come in, they'll park a van and get into the street and they'll jump out and try to get everybody to stay where they are until they can search everybody and
	That's part of their... You know, they'll do these undercover operations that last 6 or 12 months.
	They'll build up a huge stack of arrest warrants, and then they'll try to go serve them all at once before anybody has a chance to run off.
	And that's when you get those big sort of police state-style jump-outs like you just described.
	Well, in one case... Oh, it's a whole other issue.
	Sir, I really appreciate you coming on with us.
	Well, thanks for having me.
	And I hope your book does very well.
	I appreciate it.
	Take care.
	You bet.
	We'll be right back, folks.
	Or call 877-300-7645
	Big Brother.
	Mainstream media.
	Government cover-ups.
	You want answers?
	Well, so does he.
	He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.
	And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.
	If you heard the last 30 minutes, we were talking to a Texas Monthly writer, former editor of the Texas Observer,
	Nate Blakeslee about Tulia, Texas.
	And you heard my frustration.
	There's no way to articulate or talk about it all.
	Listen.
	Listen, I wasn't brought up disliking police.
	Okay?
	It was in the mid-1990s that I began to watch the news, read the newspaper, research what the MJTF were doing.
	And folks, they don't even look for reports of drugs.
	They don't even... I mean, in some of the cases we saw, they would just... You're talking about women in camo flat jackets with big, long, red nails with machine guns, with, you know, guys on roids stomping around, slapping on their rear ends, laughing and kicking the family dog as people cry and cower and nothing illegal is found.
	Well, we saw some marijuana plants in your backyard.
	And it's blood weed that grows everywhere.
	I mean, I don't know a backyard around here that isn't mowed continually that doesn't have some blood weed.
	And then Margo Frazier, that disgusting sheriff we had, got up on TV!
	Because I went out there and covered it and made a big stink about it, just one case.
	She came on TV and said, we don't need warrants anymore.
	In fact, we played that clip here on air.
	That was about three years ago.
	We don't need warrants anymore.
	Well, why'd you need them before, you witch?
	What's your major malfunction?
	You're a criminal.
	It is.
	It's criminal.
	There's only ten of them.
	There are the ten amendments.
	They're the big laws.
	They're the big ones.
	You understand that?
	And they still do it.
	And it gets cops killed, it gets innocent citizens killed, and then your bosses bring in the cocaine and heroin.
	The government brings this trash in and then has the nerve to tell us to give up all of our freedoms or it's all over.
	I don't use your trash, and I'll never use your trash.
	But I want the drugs decriminalized, and I want it done now.
	And by the way, folks, don't think that we can't affect change.
	People didn't like the speed limit being 55.
	You know...
	It's about to go up from 70 to 80.
	Citizens don't like a lot of things.
	I was thinking this weekend of all the things we've changed.
	There's been lots of stuff we've changed.
	And these MJTF groups are in trouble and are getting shut down because it just lends itself to criminality.
	It lends itself to sloppiness.
	I mean, you take some little police force of 10 people and you give them a million bucks to be MJTF,
	And then all these guys, all these Barney Fives become commando kings.
	They're going to shoot their own cops.
	They're going to shoot the neighbor.
	They're going to shoot the dog.
	They're going to shoot the old lady.
	And then it doesn't matter what you pull, you're going to be hated, and you're going to get in trouble.
	So knock it off.
	All over the country, thumb scanners are going in to buy and sell.
	And I got him on for a minute or so, and we got cut short.
	So after the break, we're going to bring up John Harmon, who works at the network, up in Minneapolis-St.
	Paul, where the thumb scanners are going in.
	I want to spend just a few minutes on this.
	Let me get Vicki Karp coming on, and she'll tell you all about the latest developments concerning electronic voting machine fraud.
	So it's all coming up after this quick break.
	And we will be taking calls in this hour at 1-800-259-9231.
	But listen, I don't try to just get up here and gripe and complain.
	Some people say, well, you've got to be a positive thinker.
	Look on the positive side.
	I am positive.
	We are positively going to kick the New World Order's hind end.
	I am positively going to defy this enemy.
	It's like if my leg's cut off, I'm going to tie a tourniquet around it.
	I'm not going to say, oh, gee, I hope it stops bleeding.
	I hope I don't bleed to death.
	No, I'm going to be doing it as fast as I can before I go into shock.
	I'm going to be putting a tourniquet on that leg.
	That's positive, brother.
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	Alright, Vicki Karp agreed to come on on short notice.
	She is out and about Central Texas as a commercial realtor.
	And we're honored to have her via cell phone.
	She's pulled over right now.
	We're going to be talking to her for the next 15 minutes.
	And yes, we're going to open the phones up.
	You want to get involved on air.
	Vicki has become one of the national leaders.
	Amongst many who are fighting to expose the fraudulent nature of these electronic voting machines and how they're designed to have back doors and how the big companies have been caught red-handed stealing elections.
	This is red-handed!
	Okay?
	But still the average person, by the time they read the newspaper, is, oh, there were a few problems, but a federal commission's fixing it.
	And then their fix is...
	We're good to go.
	The underlying theme was be positive, be positive.
	Magical thinking.
	If you're just positive, it'll make everything good happen.
	And ignore the bad.
	And folks, I was sitting there for hours at night when the family was asleep reading the Bible.
	And everything I read, I mean, these guys would call this negative.
	You know, the government's corrupt, it's evil, it wants to cheat you, don't trust it.
	Fight the enemy.
	You know, they come to enslave you.
	I mean, you think I get radical on air.
	I was reading the Bible.
	It was just absolutely zealous, which is great.
	It really strengthened me.
	I'm like, man, I've got to read this more often.
	And I was reading Proverbs and Psalms, you know, the really good stuff in there.
	I couldn't put it down, but at the same time I was watching TVN several nights in a row.
	And I could do hours on this, and we've got Vicki Karp holding, and we've got John Harmon with some comments I want him to tell you.
	Just a little story.
	So again, I'm so overwhelmed here, so much information.
	Very frustrating, but to make a long story short and sweet, which is impossible for me to do, as you know well, the windbag that I am.
	If my leg is cut off,
	And blood is squirting 15 feet.
	I can tie a tourniquet around my leg, pull my shirt off, tie a tight knot around my leg and save my life, or I can be positive and just say, no, I'm losing weight right now.
	This is a good healthy bleeding.
	My leg's cut off at the knee, blood's spraying out of giant arteries and veins, but everything's okay.
	No, it is a positive action to admit that my leg is cut off and to tie a tourniquet around it.
	It would be like if I said, I'll just be positive.
	I can build a boat made out of lead, a solid block of lead, and claim that it's a boat, and here I'll tie myself to it and throw it into the ocean, and if I'm just positive, why, this block of lead will float on top of the water.
	Well, you're going to have a really bad experience if you try that, so please don't try it.
	You will drown.
	It will take you to the bottom.
	No, I'm very positive, folks.
	But it was every show, night after night, I was watching it, hours of it.
	And most of what they were saying was great, but there was this underlying thing of, be positive, ignore the bad.
	And there was nothing about the New World Order, there was nothing about the loss of liberty, there was nothing about...
	I mean, it's a preacher's job to be fighting corruption, to be tackling the tough targets.
	I saw some documentary about Billy Graham, The Great Souls or something.
	And it was just all about how he didn't ruffle feathers and he just gave a positive message and it saved all these people.
	Well, are these people really saved, folks?
	I mean, again, I'm not trying to be a preacher here.
	It's just that
	Every time I get on and tell you what the transponders are going to do, or every time I get on and tell you what they're going to do with RFID, or every time I get on and tell you what they're going to do with your cell phone, the tax and trade shoot, now mainstream news, I get emails going, don't be so negative.
	Or every time I get on the air and talk about electronic voting machines being a fraud.
	We've caught them.
	It's why don't you just be more positive.
	Oh, it isn't that bad.
	Yes, it is that bad.
	And it is positive to meet the threat head on and deal with it.
	I'm a go-getter.
	I know we can take this country back.
	But we cannot do it if the 51st state in the U.S.
	is called denial.
	It is time to stand up against this.
	It is time to get involved.
	And that's what we're going to do.
	And just in closing, before we go to Vicki, a little side caveat story.
	All over the country, gas stations, banks, grocery stores, shopping malls, theme parks, got a thumb scan, got a face scan, got to wear an RFID bracelet.
	Oh, you get half off.
	You get 10% off.
	They put in 10 self-serve lines, and after a year, they pull the two service lines.
	Now you've got to use the self-checkout.
	Now they put thumb scanners in.
	Ooh, it's a 10% discount if you enroll in this.
	Then everybody enrolls.
	Then now you're biometrically scanning.
	It's part of the national ID card they're now standardizing.
	People were still in denial.
	Now it's happening.
	They're literally penalizing you to buy and sell if you don't take their digital mark.
	Where have we heard of this before?
	John Harmon.
	Briefly, tell folks, I mean, describe what you heard on this show and now what you're witnessing at the major grocery store chain in your town.
	Yep, I saw it for myself.
	I went to the self-checkout line, and sure enough, now they have the thumb scanners in.
	And, you know, it has nothing to do with security or identity theft.
	It has everything to do with getting everyone into this database system, where eventually, you know, everything will be tied into the database.
	You know, medical records, bank account, everything.
	Well, that's already happening.
	You're right.
	Now...
	I talked to you off air.
	You were talking about how most of the people don't like using the self-checkout, but they keep cutting it back.
	I mean, I've gone to Home Depot and Albertson's folks at like 8 o'clock, 10 o'clock at night, and now I'm told that Albertson's is like this all the time.
	They just are not checkers.
	Yeah.
	There's just no one around, so you have to use it.
	Now, you talked about the news.
	You said the news was announcing that
	As this was being implemented, the 2 million people in Minneapolis-St.
	Paul, or over half the population, had already enrolled in this, but when you were there, you took notice of how many people really were using it.
	Yeah, no one was using them, and they said on the 10 o'clock news that they already had like 2 million sign-ups.
	Which is just a big fat lie.
	I wonder if Club Foods has 2 million customers.
	I mean, do they have that much of the market to begin with?
	Club Foods, yeah, they are pretty big around here.
	It's Rainbow Foods, Club Foods, but yeah, they are pretty big.
	But how many are in Minneapolis-St.
	Paul?
	I'd say 4 or 5 million.
	I mean, that's just a big lie.
	I mean, it's so new.
	There's no way.
	I mean, we just got this in here, you know, in the past month, so there's just no way.
	But you weren't, you know, if you can get in there with a camera and just show that... Yeah, I will.
	I plan on doing that.
	There's so much I want to do, so much I want to bring you folks, and here I am bugging the fellow that answers the phones and runs the show and does the job of three people.
	Get in there and get me video of that, but...
	It's just amazing.
	Well, John, I appreciate you coming on with us.
	No problem.
	I'm again speechless.
	I warned people a decade ago about this, not because I'm special or because I have a crystal ball.
	I read industry publications.
	You ought to see what they call you.
	You ought to hear what they say about us.
	And it's so horrible what they're doing.
	This whole system is to abuse you.
	Alright, Vicki Karp's been holding for ten minutes, and she's just a great lady.
	Just type Vicki Karp into Google.
	You can read the local News 8 article.
	Type Vicki Karp voting into Google, and you'll get dozens of articles around the country.
	She's got billboards put up in town.
	They're taking action.
	They're having meetings.
	She's fighting them.
	She's taking action, and she's a testament to what you can do.
	Vicki, thanks for coming on with us.
	Thank you, Alex.
	Vicki, I want to get into the election fraud, but if you can right now, tell us how you woke up to all this.
	I have to give you the credit for that.
	As I am now sitting in my car on my way to get a bite to eat, and I heard you interviewing Bev Harris on the radio about two summers ago.
	And I pulled over and started taking notes to make a Toastmasters speech out of it because I thought, man, this stuff... I actually didn't believe my ears, but when I got on her website, I found out that she was only able to cover just a few of the unbelievable points about the D-Bold software that she discovered on the Internet and how it was pretty much, as she now clearly discovered, designed for fraud.
	And that got me going.
	I started out by giving talks to my Toastmasters groups, and then the next thing I knew...
	I was talking to Republicans, Democrats, the Truth Seekers here in Austin, legal women voters meetings, other citizens groups.
	I've been sort of taking it, not on the road out of town too much, but within the city of Austin.
	I've become a local spokesperson for it.
	And then ran into my friend, Abby Delosier, who has been helping and doing a great job of media, well, it's hard to do a great job with most of the media.
	We put on these two press conferences in Washington, D.C.
	last year for Bev Harris and a couple of computer programmers who demonstrated six ways to hack an election with Diebold and Sequoia software.
	So Abby's been doing a great job.
	Well, I want to go over all this because, again, folks, one piece of literally thousands of pieces of red-handed coup de grace evidence
	Is the fact that they actually found the manual online with the software on their website.
	Their idiot programmers had left it on the server where the public could find it through a back door.
	And it was a manual on how to steal elections.
	We'll be right back with Vicki Karp.
	Amazing lady.
	Hey, where are you out there?
	Who are the other Vicki Carps out there?
	Who are the other men out there?
	But instead of sucking your thumbs and whining, where are you?
	We need you to take action.
	More of you.
	That's how we're going to defeat the New World Order.
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	That's because it can purify raw, untreated water from remote lakes and stagnant ponds.
	The Berkey Lot is unique because it removes pathogenic bacteria, cyst parasites and harmful chemicals to below detectable levels.
	It also removes foul taste and odors like the rotten egg smell of sulfide and it extracts nitrates and unhealthy minerals like lead and mercury while leaving in the healthful and nutritional minerals that your body needs.
	The Berkey Light's rechargeable LED lighting system is so bright it can be used as a reading light.
	Get the Berkey Light for only $259 by calling New Millennium at 888-803-4438.
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	We're talking to Vicki Sharp, voting activist with the Coalition for the Visible Balance.
	And if you go to Infowars.com, we've got some links to some of the current news articles about Vicki's work.
	And you know I don't lavish people with praise normally, it's just that
	Anybody who from zero in just a few years is able to reach millions of people needs to be commended.
	And anybody who is informed and involved and passionate can have that type of effect.
	I mean, I'm nobody special.
	Listen, my children aren't going to be free unless you're free.
	Unless you get involved.
	Well, I'd say that the non-belief of the public is one of the biggest obstacles we have on getting something done, but
	I want to say regarding the proof that's out there, Alex, I don't think we have actual proof of a specific election official or individual hacking an election, but what we do have is a lot of evidence about the obvious features of the software, both Diebold and Sequoia, both of which left their software online, as you said, on the web.
	So the software of those two companies of the top four have been reviewed very carefully, and Bev Harris and her team of experts in particular have discovered just recently even more flagrant, obvious features, design features for hacking.
	And so what we have is we don't have exactly a red-handed situation, which would be great, but we do have a lot of evidence that the software of these two companies, at least, was designed for fraud.
	Well, Vicki, when I say red-handed, when Diebold has a convicted computer hacker convicted for computer crimes running the California elections for Diebold, and then you have all sorts of weird number-flipping...
	There have been thousands of cases with these big companies with just all sorts of fraud.
	They call them mistakes going on, and then you have the built-in back doors on top of it.
	I mean, you know, did we catch the robber with the black mask with the bags of money in his hands?
	No, but, you know, we found the money at his house.
	Well, I agree.
	I mean, the circumstantial evidence could bury the whole situation.
	People looked at it.
	I mean, just
	Where most of us believe, and I'm sure you're very well aware, that probably the election in 2004 was stolen for Bush in Ohio, Bob Petrakis, together with some other folks, put together a book on just what happened in Ohio.
	The book weighs about 25 pounds.
	I mean, there was all kinds of evidence.
	And there was voter suppression involved there and voter discrimination as well as electronic voting machine manipulation and very likely a rigged recount there as well.
	So there's just scrupulousness.
	It goes so deep in so many different places, it's just hard to track it all.
	Well, what we know is this.
	As you said, you can take the software, you can take these machines, and in 30 seconds, experts are able to break in right in front of the news media.
	You guys have had press conferences in Houston, in D.C., all over.
	Start telling us about that.
	I mean, we know that these things are designed for fraud, and then why are they still being used?
	Great question.
	We would love to know the answer to that.
	Well, the first big hack that Bev discovered was the hidden second set of books in the Dbold software in what's called the central tabulator software.
	That's where all the final vote totals are stored.
	What she discovered was that separate precinct totals within a county were stored, for example, on one screen, and then the final totals would be stored on another screen of the software program.
	She could get in a back door and get to the final vote total page or screen, flip election results and come out, and then getting back into the official version, which the election officials are showing when they get in there, the election results would have been flipped.
	But nobody was bothering to add up the separate precinct totals to see that they didn't match up with the final half totals.
	And then magically and literally, folks, hundreds and hundreds of elections, that very thing happens.
	And long before people even knew about this, we would call it flipping.
	Back in the 1998 election, for Save Our Springs and other issues, I have seen numbers actually flip.
	Yeah, it's a phenomenon that's occurred in so many places.
	I would advise listeners to get on the votersunite.org website, and there's all kinds of statistical evidence there.
	That's one of my best sources for information.
	I quote them quite a bit.
	Well, stay there, Vicki.
	We've got to break again.
	We've got plenty of time coming up, and we'll take some calls.
	But, yeah, let's go over some of the...
	Some of the smoking gun evidence of how these things are designed for fraud.
	We'll be right back.
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	We're talking to Vicki Clark, voting integrity activist and lecturer.
	Vicki, joining us via cell phone from here in Austin, Texas.
	Vicki, can you, I mean, specifically, as I heard one of the speeches you gave recently, and of course I was aware of much of the information you were covering, but I'd like to hear you recap that for the audience.
	But you were talking about cases of major universities looking at Bev Harris and her scientist findings, and many others.
	I mean, this is the integrity of our republic, of our voting system.
	And then you've got these companies saying it's proprietary, you can't look under the hood, shut up, just trust us.
	For decades before that, we've had voter news services
	Some secretive group with armed guards who magically tells us who wins the election?
	I mean, we've got serious problems here.
	Go over some of that for us.
	Well, I think Bev and her team, they've come up with some even more explosive evidence about the default software in recent months, and that can be found in detail on blackboxvoting.org, her website, to capitalize it for you.
	There's a computer programmer and security engineer from Finland named Hari Hursti, H-U-R-S-T-I.
	And she met up with him in Florida, and he's been doing contract work for her.
	And so they actually had an invitation from an election official in Leon County, Florida, Ian Fancho, who I wish every election official in the country had the integrity of this man.
	He then sold the D-Bolt optical scan counters, which are used to count paper ballots,
	He wanted them to come in and just see what they could do to the software that ran those op scan counters and just see if that system was as secure as what he had been told by the vendors and the state, and I guess the Secretary of State's office.
	And they went in there, and I think also Dr. Herbert Thompson was there, and Cynthia McKinney was a witness, and Representative Corinne Brown.
	They were both there watching this, and they went a couple of times.
	And they just tore that software apart, came in and hacked in several different ways.
	Within, you know, 60 to 90 seconds.
	But what a disturbing thing that they found.
	Two of the disturbing things they found that up until now I don't think have been out there.
	One, these optical scan counters, which some people take comfort in because they're counting paper ballots, which, of course, everybody's looking to return people that have been
	You know, working on this, you're saying, let's go back to paper ballots, but when you have these optical scan counters, they have the same software that I was describing earlier, the same central tabulator software that has the secret back door, and Harry Hersey found that there's like a programming card that downloads all the totals from each counter.
	He found a live program in the, that refers to it as the electronic ballot box, and this little card
	You pull out of the optical scan counter and you put it into the central tabulator to tally up the votes.
	There's a live program in there that can manipulate the totals into the central tabulator however it's programmed to do.
	Well for those that don't know, I wanted to understand how this worked.
	Back in 1996, I went and worked downtown at the old convention center
	We're good to go.
	And then after we had fed these into the big machines, they'd all been shipped there in ballot boxes, they then come up with this little computer card package and they cram it into the machine and then pull it out.
	Then they walk over and stick it into a bigger computer.
	And so again, it's already computerized, and that's exactly what we were told by computer hacking experts and people that have been exposing this in the past, is that it was a very primitive system, mainly of flipping.
	And we did indeed catch a lot of flipping.
	We had seen flipping even before I discovered this was a national problem, Vicki.
	So we've got to go back to the actual paper ballots that are looked at by humans, the old-fashioned way we used to do it.
	Absolutely.
	And not only that, hand-counted in public view.
	And that's the part where I lose a lot of people.
	And it's amazing what people say.
	I've heard people say, well, that's so archaic.
	And recently when I gave the talk you were referring to that I gave recently to a citizens group, I had somebody say, but what about the networks?
	They want to report the results quickly.
	And I just started laughing.
	I said, what?
	I said, what?
	I don't care about the network.
	Are you telling me that you would rather have a fast tally than an efficient one?
	I mean, what are you saying?
	I mean, it's so absurd I can't even believe it, but it's not like no one does this in the world.
	Canada holds their elections this way, and so does Australia.
	And other countries, too.
	I'm not sure which ones, but I know those two do.
	Well, Stalin said, I don't care who casts the votes, I care who counts them.
	Absolutely.
	And so, you know, it's unfortunate that within the movement of people that are trying to get our elections back, there has been, I guess, a sort of a division, unfortunately.
	And a lot of the people are working to promote legislation to add printers to the machines.
	But, see, that's the other part of what Hari Hersey discovered, is that you can add a printer to one of these machines.
	And at least on the Diebold software...
	That account can still be manipulated to where you could get a paper ballot slash receipt.
	You don't usually get to walk out with that.
	But you can get something that verifies the way you just voted, but the machine will be recording something different.
	So adding a printer isn't necessary.
	I mean, we know with default.
	We know that that does not work.
	So even though we don't know for sure if ES&S
	Well, we know back in the late 90s, Karen Sunlightner, County Commissioner, was losing, but in the middle of the night, when she threw a fit and started crying,
	County clerk came and comforted her.
	It was in the paper and magically she won.
	And then it was in the paper, the state looked at what the county clerk had done, who I know you know, and I don't want to say anything mean about, but they looked at what she'd done and said, oh, well, she accidentally double-counted ballot boxes and falsified signatures and broke safety seals.
	So, you know, we have all the old-fashioned stuff.
	We have LBJ and Box 13 and stuffing the ballot boxes, but still, that doesn't allow the industrialized mass nature of this, and
	We can fight good old-fashioned corruption.
	And I think the answer is having citizens being involved, having the paper ballots counted at the precinct, then being double-checked and recounted with witnesses and video cameras with live feeds on the Internet at the downtown facilities, and to not have these things touch a dirty computer.
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Well, and to demonstrate to the public what that might look like, that's why we're going to be holding what we call a parallel election with paper ballots here in Austin in Travis County, November the 8th.
	We won't be able to cover very many precincts.
	It's going to be kind of a, this is our first try at doing something like this, but we're going to be inviting voters.
	To come out after voting on the heart machines and come out and cast their ballot again on paper and then invite them to come back at 7 o'clock and actually watch the votes be counted.
	Okay, and is there a local website where we can find out more about this?
	Well, there will be in a few days.
	But for now, people can just call 775-3737 to get more information.
	But I think we may... We've been getting a lot of great response and a lot of volunteers
	Basically, a lot of it coming from Radio Free Austin publicity, and we're so grateful for that.
	We're looking to have a real widespread political spectrum.
	I know all over the city you guys are going to be doing this just to demonstrate.
	I mean, it's a great tactic to show the media what a real election looks like to illustrate this.
	Give us that phone number, Vicki.
	Yeah, it's 775-3737.
	And I think in a few more days we will have a website, so we'll be trying to get that information out there.
	We have a kind citizen who heard this on Radio Free Austin call and offered to do that for us.
	Well, that's good.
	It's all working together.
	That's how we get this done.
	But for those that just joined us, it is encyclopedic.
	It is voluminous.
	It is the size of a library.
	The amount of evidence to try to chronicle it all.
	Right.
	And I've been saying day one, don't let them go with a printer, because they'll just print the fraudulent... They'll give you your results, but then fraudulently announce the total results later, and you have no way of verifying this.
	But if Diebold, which we keep talking about Diebold, they're the biggest...
	We're good to go.
	We're good to go.
	I mean, imagine them putting the data on the Internet with the codes that a 10-year-old could go into the Diebold systems into your bank account and take your money.
	Those things are built in a very secure fashion.
	But then they also then simultaneously put out machines that are designed, and I've also talked to programmers, it's been in the news, not just to get in, but then to cover their tracks when they go out.
	Very sophisticated programs.
	Oh, absolutely.
	There's so many layers of... Well, Harry Hurst, here's a quote from him.
	He compared the scanners, and this is the Diebold optical scanners, to a house with an unlockable revolving door.
	And he said, the mother of security holes and no apparent cure will produce system safety.
	And after witnessing all the hacking that he and Herbert Thompson did, Bev was asked,
	At a hearing recently, if she thought there was any way to fix the problem.
	You know, there's so many IDs being thrown around, like adding some sort of a cryptography where you get some barcode or something.
	You go home to your computer and check and see if you did or didn't vote.
	If your vote was or was not recorded or whatever.
	There are all these different suggestions that are just adding other layers of technology.
	Well, then they know how you voted.
	Now it's part of the national ID card.
	Well, yeah, we know how ridiculous that idea is.
	Anyway, the question posed to her was, is there any way that she could see that you could, through technology, to fix this?
	And she said, without having hand-counted paper ballots, there's just no way to ever figure out the hack.
	And she has said that, as you were saying, of course, we know paper ballot elections aren't foolproof.
	We know that ballot boxes can be stuffed, but you can't.
	Flip an election and flip the vote, a million votes for a candidate with one stroke of a key on a computer keyboard with paper ballot elections.
	It's not possible.
	Well, history shows that, and there's a reason the politicians are so arrogant right now.
	There's a reason Rick Perry smiles at us when 98% of Texans are against the toll roads on major streets.
	There's a reason he just laughs at you, because they've got enough of their machines in place now already to frustrate the will of the people, and that's why we're seeing election results that we've never seen before.
	In California...
	Gray Davis won all the areas where they didn't have Diebold machines, but in the major populated cities, Arnold then won by about 10%, and that flipped it.
	Normally, not normally, always with demographics, it's more evenly distributed.
	Now we're seeing Howard Dean lose on all the Diebold machines, and John Kerry win on all the Diebold, but then Howard Dean then wins on all the others.
	So, folks, understand, we're seeing the fraud.
	And again, I'm not saying I like Howard Dean.
	I'm not saying I like Ray Davis.
	The point is, we report on the clear evidence.
	I mean, it's right there if we're just willing to look at it for what it is.
	Vicki?
	Yeah, I agree with all of that.
	And then, you know, exit polls, which have been...
	...considered reliable for years, and we even used them in Venezuela, and Ukraine, I think, got a second election based on exit polls that didn't agree with official results.
	However, here, in the United States, in the 2004 election, exit polls are being thrown out and saying, oh, well, they're not matching up, they're not being done right, or they're not reliable, but studies have been done by mathematicians and statisticians about the results of exit polls from 2004's election...
	And likelihood of them being so far off from the official results, and after boiling down the data, the consensus was that there was a 1 in 969,000 chance that exit polls could have been so long in predicting the outcome of the 2004 presidential election.
	So, like you say, there's so much evidence.
	My home office is just, I've got boxes and files and filing cabinets filled with it.
	Well, it was in the gazillion... Internet and other sources, not mainstream very much, reporting on this naturally.
	It was in the gazillion quadrillions, I mean, unpronounceable numbers, you know, with 50-something zeros.
	It's not true, 48 zeros.
	That you would have the exact same drill, the exact same places, at the exact same time for London bombings, and then it magically happens.
	And that was only with a 10-year meme.
	And folks, this is how they investigate stock fraud and things like that.
	They look at statistics.
	And conservatively, you look at the stuff that's happening, it's impossible.
	But it's not just that.
	We've had Diebold employees quit and go public and say that things are bad.
	We've had major universities have looked at the research and found that, yes, we've got big problems.
	I mean, it's not just Bev Harris.
	In fact, when Bev did her first, when she first discovered that Diebold software, that was in July of 2003, I believe.
	Yes.
	And in July...
	She did her first hack with the help of a computer programmer, executed her first hack, which took her a few minutes then.
	Now it's down to like less than 60 seconds.
	But in the same timeframe, Johns Hopkins University computer scientists and security engineers got hold of that software, and they did a very intensive study.
	And the short conclusion was they said electronic voting was a threat to our democracy.
	Of course, they should have said republic.
	But anyway.
	And that's John Hopkins.
	I mean, this is mathematicians.
	This is computer science experts, engineers, looking at this.
	And just a program note, I said we'd take calls, but what happened is everybody called in from the first two hours that wanted to call, because I had five guests on today, and then no one's even able to get through to talk to you, Vicki Karp.
	So I'm just going to let all the callers go right now, and maybe...
	If somebody is able to get through who wants to talk to Vicki Carb about her work or about Harris' work or any of it, then you'll be welcome to 1-800-259-9231.
	We'll take one or two calls in the next segment.
	Normally, I take calls throughout the whole three hours, but some days we have guests on, and I want to cram a few on today, but if it's not on topic, we can't, because we're specifically talking about election fraud.
	And we have caught governments, mayors and others, engaged in good old classic fraud many times.
	But you're right, Vicki, that this is the mother of just institutionalized...
	Stealing of our process.
	And do you agree with me that that's why we see such arrogance now out of government?
	Is because it's kind of an unspoken snickering that they know this is happening?
	I do, and I'd like to add on to that after the break.
	Okay, we'll wrap things up with Vicki Karp on the other side, take a few calls, and maybe have time to plug the videos and books that I hope you'll get.
	We're good to go.
	We're good to go.
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	All right.
	Steve and Paul are all the calls we have time to take.
	Both from Missouri.
	We'll go to them here in just a minute or two.
	Vicki, you wanted to comment on the point we were just making before the break?
	Yeah, about officials being kind of smug.
	I think that they have good reason to be because
	In the very Hegelian sense, the federal government has created a situation through the Health America Vote Act where they have states and individual counties going out there and purchasing these electronic machines so that they can get federal funds that are being held out there as a carrot, and they have until January of 2006 to buy them, or they don't get the federal funds.
	And this was all created as a so-called problem, reaction, solution situation.
	It was so clear to me in the 2000 election in Florida, where I think that election was stolen, where the so-called hanging chad... And then Chuckie Schumer has a plan, and him and George Bush team up, and then they have $6 billion, and then they put these in all over the country.
	It's only for certain special machines.
	Here's the federal money.
	We're helping...
	They have people begging for them because they're afraid they're going to miss out on the federal money.
	And the excuse is that what is being used is the reason why counties have to upgrade.
	Well, it's like taking money from the mafia.
	I mean, it's always going to be loan shark.
	But the good news is, though, Vicki, a bunch of states are saying no to those machines.
	Well, they should.
	I wish I could warn myself.
	I wanted to go out and talk to some of the counties in Texas
	Who still are using paper ballots and counted, which they do not have.
	There's been no mandate for them to change that system.
	What their mandate is is for the disabled to have a private vote to do that without using electronic machines.
	Tyson with Voters Unite came up with a prototype of a voting system for the disabled.
	We've got to take a few calls.
	We're almost out of time, Vicki.
	I'm going to have to have you back up.
	Steve in Kansas City.
	Go ahead, Steve.
	Yes, Ms.
	Vicki, Mr. Jones, thank you for taking my call real quick.
	Ms.
	Vicki, what is your area code there?
	Oh, it's 512.
	512.
	Thank you.
	And we had a dinner party this weekend, and that was brought up.
	There was a judge and three business owners.
	And for some reason that was brought up and they looked at me.
	And every one of them hammered me.
	Well, why can't... Even if there is an electronic voting machine, so what?
	They can do the same thing.
	No, it centralizes the fraud and unifies the fraud.
	You have to have an army of millions of people to steal a national election.
	It can be done with only a few hundred people.
	It's about centralization.
	And Miss Viggy, I would really like to talk to you because I live in Kansas.
	I would really like to talk to you personally.
	We're going to do this then.
	We're going to do this, Steve.
	We're going to... Vicki will give out a number where you and others can get in touch with her.
	Vicki, give us that number.
	Area code 512-775-3737.
	All right.
	Paula in Missouri.
	Paula, go ahead.
	Hi, Vicki and Alex.
	Vicki, I wanted to ask you.
	You were going to have that demonstration today.
	On the counting the ballots and then going... Is it going to be made available to others in the other states in Alex's listening audience so that they can go about and do this?
	Well, yeah, but you have to set it up yourself.
	Yeah, that's what I mean.
	Well, I can provide information.
	We will have a website up soon.
	But I would say that if you want to, if you made a note of that phone number, when we have our website up, we can give you links to...
	The information that we're using, this has been done twice before.
	We're out of time.
	We're out of time.
	Vicki Carp, I want to thank you for coming on.
	Paula, thanks for the call.
	Vicki, we've got to have you back up soon.
	Thanks, Alex, for all your support.
	You bet.
	Take care.
	Oh, no, thank you for what you're doing.
	Are you kidding?
	We're all in this together.
	Folks, I could talk forever about this.
	What you do is you sit out front the real... Oh, I'm out of time.
	I don't have time to get into it.
	God bless you all.
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